In this thread, rather than discussing PW or his family or what he might or might not have done, please concentrate on what the administration at Bellevue now seems to be doing (or not doing) about the situation.
Kevin Rardin, Assistant Shelby County D.A., is a regular reader of this forum and saw this post by "informedatbbc" last night, prompting him to call David Brown to dispute the assertion by two BBC staff members that there was no external investigation under way. Mr. Rardin confirmed that there is definitely an ongoing investigation being conducted by the Shelby County D.A.'s office, and Mr. Brown received this letter from the Tennessee Department of Children's Services dated December 24th stating that agency is also conducting an investigation. This is the postmarked envelope (personal information omitted) it came in.
I have reposted David Brown's comments from last night here, along with some from other posters in the first comment in this thread. Mr. Rardin informed David Brown that the administration at Bellevue is refusing to cooperate with his office or the Tennessee DCS in their investigation.
Everyone needs to call the church office at 901-347-2000 and politely ask these questions:
1. Why did Mark Dougharty and Jamie Fish state that there is no external investigation taking place?
2. Why did Mark Dougharty state to someone back in December that he'd been "interrogated" about the PW situation for two hours the previous day? (He didn't specify by whom.)
3. Why aren't all members of the church administration fully cooperating with the agencies which we know for a fact are conducting these investigations?
Finally, please call the D.A.'s office and DCS if you have any information relating to this case. If you have ever been counseled by Paul Williams and have any concerns whatsoever about the nature of the questions you were asked or anything else about your encounters with him, please do the following:
1. Call the church office and politely but firmly demand they release the file from your counseling session(s) to you or your designated representative.
2. Call the officials listed below, regardless of how minor or inconsequential your concerns may seem to the case at hand. They need to hear whatever information you can give them and will decide for themselves if it's relevant or not. Please do not call their offices simply to complain about Bellevue administrators not cooperating. That's not news to them!
Kevin Rardin is the Shelby County Assistant District Attorney and can be reached at 901-888-4300 or 901-545-5935.
Larry Griffin is with the regional office of the State of Tennessee Department of Child Protective Services (DCS) and can be reached at 901-258-0268.
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637 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 600 of 637 Newer› Newest»heardenuf,
You can see TN state law for yourself on the fact that all people, including clergy, are mandated reporters. That means failure to report knowledge of child abuse, regardless of whether it has allegedly been reported previously, is a punishable crime. All you have to do is google TN child abuse laws, or something similar, and you can find it.
heardenuf,
You had claimed to have been here as a non-posting bystander for quite some time. However, it is apparant that you must have missed a great deal of information that has been proved beyond refute. The financial improprities for example have been proven to be true and in violation of IRS code.
The Communication Committee had every opportunity to answer questions. "I don't know" is not a legitimate answer. "I'll find out and get back to you", is not either if no one ever finds out and responds.
There are speicifics that are already known without the investigation report being released. Steve Gaines by his own admission knew of problems for 6 months before anything was done. Further until the pressure from the story being made public was put forth nothing was done. That is already known, not specuclation or innuendo.
Someones integrity is self supporting. They either have it or they don't. I nor anyone else can cause someone to lose their integrity.
If Steve Gaines choose to put his family in harms way, by his refusal to openly and honestly deal with issues. The person that would be accountable for that action would be Steve Gaines.
Finally, my name is visible. Yours is not. I have not condemned you for having an opinion, nor do I believe that you have condemned me. I appreciate your civility.
You appear to be the latest apologist for the administration.
Thank you, but I have my own agenda... to counteract the misinformation I've been hearing and reading for many months.
" Take back the message that this whole business might have been avoided if a certain pastor had allowed Mark Sharpe and a couple staff members (together with, say, Craig Parker) and a certain associate pastor to meet with the deacons. But this was blocked."
I'm sure they've heard your message before.
And see, my understanding is that Mark made certain stipulations to a meeting and when they could not be met fully, he refused.But I didn't run to the blog and defame Mark.
Had the pastor followed Mt. 18, then he would not have been in damage control mode in June '06.
I'm not so sure about Matthew 18 in all of this, but that's beside the point. Craig has since renounced any financial impropriety by Steve after having met with staff and deacons to review the credit cards. The church is conducting an investigation that has not yet been completed, so we shouldn't be commenting on it.
Someone had lied... it is still uncertain who had lied... but one thing is certain: truth does not fear light. Little things become big things if they are not dealt with biblically.
I'm confused, lied about what?
Thanks
Heardenuf
Valid questions were being asked in the CC meeting but few answers were given. NO evidence or statements were allowed, only questions. Then they quit as interest in the meetings grew.
A meeting with all offended parties present and where any evidence can be shared would be more beneficial, but also more damaging to SG. Therefore, it did not happen.
No CREDIT CARD issues were uncovered but co-mingling of funds which is against the TAX CODE was uncovered and the leadership has not apologized for that or admitted that it needed addressing. They confirmed it was so and proceeded to ignore it.
Many of us know staff personally and are certain why we are concerned (not just relying on rumor). Gathering evidence is difficult but is underway. Getting all together to discuss this has been impossible. SG would not allow it.
I understand the anger of most who come here.
The fact is, they just don't know what we know (not all of it CAN be posted, obviously, because staff would be history).
Or they are covering it up.
That's the only way I can explain the anger of our brothers and sisters in Christ who love this church.
heardenuf
I don't believe you are here to seek truth. You appear to believe that you already know it and you are just here to correct those who post here.
Lied about what?...
The "dream".
You may think that was a small matter. Little things become big things when they are not dealt with biblically with integrity.
You may say, no one is upset about that. Well a lie is a lie. Some old English guy once said something about a tangled web that is the result of....
I can speak to a some of these issues:
"The law about reporting pedophiles was stated in the news coverage"
I'm not doubting the statement but I would like to know what the law says regarding 17 year old abuse, not active abuse.
Mrs. Rogers statement (that the church refused to make her husband's lack of involvement clear) was aired on Mike Fleming and heard by many.
Thank you, I hadn't heard that Mrs. Rogers was on Mike Fleming.
"At the top of this thread are the numbers for the DA and DHS so you can call and verify Steve Gaines' cooperation, or the lack thereof, for yourself."
I hope others will as well. Have you talked to them?
"Regarding the gift to FUMC: anyone would offer food or medical help, etc, to a person regardless of beliefs - but I would not help rebuild an abortion clinic that burned down, or rebuild a Muslim Mosque - or, in this case, a liberal church that opposes God's word, rpomotes abortion and the homosexual lifestyle."
I understand your position.
"Why, if we feel Steve Gaines is unfit to lead Bellevue for integrity issues and other reasons, would we wish him on another congregation? "
I trust that you feel led by the Lord to feel thta Steve is unfit for ministry. I would be hesitant to speak for God's calling on anyone's life or ministry.
Also, everyone, please consider the difference between "anger" and "righteous indignation." Both are on this blog, but just think about it.
No CREDIT CARD issues were uncovered but co-mingling of funds which is against the TAX CODE was uncovered and the leadership has not apologized for that or admitted that it needed addressing.
The problem I have with this is, and I state it respectfully, is that it sounds like this is some grand scheme of his to get something for free, which I do not believe it was. I think there have been two instances listed, a room and a dinner??
And I think that repaying the debt without someone having to constantly remind or force him to says that it was not some diabolic scheme he was running as it sounds according to that statement.
Noah and the flood... **and** Dinosaur bones. (The Ark will be a separate comment)
Okay, I've actually read about this in years gone by, but I'm just going from memory today. I'm not saying that I'm the author of anything you read below.
Erosion is the process of wind and water removing layers of material from geological forms. The eroded material eventually comes to a rest and can become part of a new geological formation. This is a general "downward" effect on features. This can be by rain, flood, river, hurricane, etc.
The "upward" movement of the earth surface comes from the activity of the molten rock beneath the earth's surface. What we walk on is just the "cool" layer of the earth's surface.
Basically, this layer is "floating" on top of a liquid layer beneath us. (I'm doing a lot of simplification here). As "our" solid layer floats it is affected by the fluid motion beneath.
Imagine yourself on The Memphis Queen out in the Mississippi and feeling the "seasick" feeling that can come over you.
The effect is various "pushes" and "pulls" of tremendous strength. The strength is so great that actually, what we walk on is "plates" of solid ground that grind against each other at the boundaries.
Imagine the world's largest fish tank. Have you ever tried to pick up a full fish tank? Water is heavy! Now think about the fact that ***all the world's oceans*** are sitting on top of plates in the same way that you in your chair are sitting on a plate.
The forces at the plate boundaries are unimaginable.
Here in Memphis we've all heard of the New Madrid fault line. That is the effect of two plates coming into contact with each other.
Reelfoot lake was formed in the 1800's when the pressure between these plates triggered an earth quake which caused the Mississippi river to flow **backwards** until all the forces of nature were back to normal.
Backwards?? I've never been able to picture that! Ole Man River! Going backwards! God's handiwork is unimaginably powerful and we are like grains of sand.
Ever hear of "walking on egg shells?" That's basically what human civilization is doing by living on these plates.
The Tsunami that killed so many in the Indian Ocean a few years ago was just **one** wave that came in from an underwater earthquake.
Volcanoes are the result of the molten rock punching through and can give off great quantities of volcanic ash.
Mountains form at the edge of one continental plate in contact with another. It is the result of one plate edge sliding under another plate and pushing up. Smokey Mountains, Rocky Mountains, Himalayas, Mt. Sinai, Mt. Ararat, etc.
And it takes millions of years to cause things like the Grand Canyon, and Mountain ranges, etc.
That is, unless you believe God's word is true and that men are the authors of fairy tales, not God.
Attention! Please pay attention you are about to read God's word.
Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. (New KJV version).
Behold the wrath of God upon sin. The warning God carved into the Earth's features is around still.
Genesis 7:24 tells us the whole Earth's land surface was under water for 150 days. (The Qoran speaks of waves the size of mountains).
A lot of dating methods used in the Darwinian world view rely upon estimation of time by looking at layers in geological records. They discount the effect of Genesis 7:24.
Dinosaur fossil records are not 65 million years old despite attempts to date them by looking at geology, erosion, etc.
There are a growing number of good books on Genesis 1-11. One of my favorite brothers working to raise literacy in this area is Ken Hamm. His ministry is "Answers in Genesis."
Ken points out that we have many "whole-body" fish fossils. How did we get those? Usually when a fish dies, it floats to the top and gets eaten. Darwinists try to claim that when their fish die they sink to the bottom and lay there for years (uneaten) until they are slowly covered with sediment particles enough to turn to stone. That doesn't even make sense!
But if there were waves during the time of the flood, many fish could be caught up in those and layers of earth piled over them quickly resulting in fossilization.
Ken goes on to point out that what we do have is examples like Mt. St. Helens and Mt. Vesuvius (Pompeii) where sudden volcanic eruptions emmited uncountable tons of dust that engulf and preserve the surrounding areas. There are petrified trees in the the Mt. St. Helens area that stand errect and were in full season in our lifetimes, before the eruption. He says that possibly the flood was accompanied by volcanic activity.
Let God's word be true and every man a liar.
Thank you for your time in reading this material.
heardenuf,
"You can see TN state law for yourself on the fact that all people, including clergy, are mandated reporters. That means failure to report knowledge of child abuse, regardless of whether it has allegedly been reported previously, is a punishable crime. All you have to do is google TN child abuse laws, or something similar, and you can find it. "
Thank you, I'll try to check on it.
"Further until the pressure from the story being made public was put forth nothing was done. That is already known, not specuclation or innuendo."
Pressure, that's what you call it.
Here are a few important changes that would help during these days of crisis in leadership:
I. Pastoral Accountability to the Congregation:
1. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... and any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
2. The giving records of the membership and the ministers on staff at Bellevue should never be for pastoral review in any shape, form, or fashion.
3. No church credit cards.
4. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
5. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else.
6. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
7. Removal from office of ministers guilty of sexual immorality with immediate coordination with the appropriate authorities if any laws have been broken by a minister (no matter how long ago), including thorough investigation of the matter when the minister’s conduct may have affected other church members or their children.
II. Congregational Church governance:
Some of the congregation has awakened to the reality that our church has a set of "lay-elders," a close knit group of men who manage to be appointed to key positions year after year. The rest of the congregation needs to be awakened.
1. Those who are part of this lay-elder "power block" need to step down from positions of influence for a long time. Bellevue needs “new blood” in these key positions.
2. There needs to be the signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services for the church. These people should not be allowed to serve on committees that review bids for their services.
3. Congregational nomination of and election of all of the Board of Directors as called for in the 1929 bylaws.
4. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. **The current bylaws mention "monthly" business meetings! When were they changed??
5. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
8. Thorough communication with the Congregation for ANY capital project well in advance of any vote. Building prayer buildings or any other type of building should be brought through proper channels to the congregation for prayerful consideration--not coerced "rubber stamping." [By the way, Dr. Rogers taught us quite a bit about prayer. As a matter of fact, I believe all of the current buildings ARE prayer buildings already. He and Dr. Whitmire also taught us quite a bit about worship also... but that's another topic].
9. Bellevue needs to reject Warrenism fully and finally.
10. Higher standards should be put in place for the hiring of "ministers." Seminary training should be considered a normal prerequisite.
III. Treatment of ministers on staff at BBC and members:
1. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members.
2. The end of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members; and the end of signing non-disclosure statements. All ministers who have been pressured or asked to sign such non-disclosure statements should be released from them in writing by BBC! Former staff should be allowed to address the congregation and/or the deacon body either in writing or in person without any fear of reprisal regarding their exit from BBC. The congregation needs to know how their leadership has treated and is treating ministers who leave the service of our Lord through BBC.
3. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.
All in my opinion as usual.
We are to be “providing things honestly in the sight of all men” (Rom. 12:17). Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."
Heardenuf
I'm basing my opinion of Steve's "fitness" for ministry on what I know of his actions as they
line up with scripture.
Like Tim, I thank you for your civility here.
Pray with us for the truth and God's will in this matter. We're on the same team.
mo-scratch said- 4545 - I wonder if SG has learned from all of this. You seem to know him better than most here. What is your opinion? Has he learned from his mistakes? If so, how specifically? I am ready to forgive him and support him, but I can't help but wonder if he is changed for the better due to all of this.
REPLY- Yes, I think he has grown and learned a great deal from everything that has happened. He told us one of his first Sunday mornings at Bellevue that he was going to make mistakes along the way. He has and we all have. Many were so used to Dr. Rogers and how everything seemed to be perfect all the time. Things were never perfect, they just seemed that way to some. I for one am very happy that God sent Dr. Gaines to Bellevue. I truly feel that we were in for some tough times no matter who was Pastor and I am glad Dr. Gaines is here. We needed someone strong and I thank God for Dr. Gaines everyday. We will get through these tough times in God's timing and be stronger and more dependent on Him than ever. There are lots of things going on at Bellevue that have nothing to do with Dr. Gaines. Never have and never will. God is getting Bellevue where it needs to be. We need to stop making OUR lists of what WE think needs to be done and give God a clean sheet to write on it what He desires. I can take these tough times, because I know God is at work.
heardenuf
I don't believe you are here to seek truth. You appear to believe that you already know it and you are just here to correct those who post here.
That's so funny, because that is what many believe about the posters on this blog. I'm just saying, wait until the report comes out to make judgment. If the report says Steve did wrong, then I'll deal with that...at that time, but if something else comes out, will you and others deal with that?
"Lied about what?...
The "dream".
You may think that was a small matter. Little things become big things when they are not dealt with biblically with integrity.
You may say, no one is upset about that. Well a lie is a lie. Some old English guy once said something about a tangled web that is the result of...."
And once again, how do you know he lied... were you there?
memphis
I don't know that I think it's a grand scheme, bit it is against the law. Using the Bellevue account gets him a reduced rate and no taxes added.
After he writes Bellevue a check for it to pay it back - he could then claim that as a tax-free donation.
The IRS is wise to this (because it happens alot) so there is a law against it.
At the very least, he has pastored 20+ years and should know the law and follow it.
Personally, I think there are bigger issues here.
Finally, my name is visible. Yours is not. I have not condemned you for having an opinion, nor do I believe that you have condemned me. I appreciate your civility.
Exactly my point. If you read through enough stuff, you will see people's names and they are usually very civil. It is some of the posters who do not include their name and then say whatever they want that get to me. I am responding in kind... by not revealing my name.
Somebody asked me a question about Leah / Rachel / Jacob's "next day regrets."
I can't find your question. Did you delete it?
Basically, I don't know whether that involved alcohol or some other intoxicant.
I just find it hard to believe that that was not implied, imho.
But I'm not saying that's verbatim in the text.
I'm open to hearing your read on that text. Tell me how you read that that explains how a man can go to bed with a woman and then the next day say it was not the woman he thought it was?
I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just asking to hear an alternate explanation so that I can reject mine if it's wrong.
Meanwhile, I re-read yesterday's. I don't think I was wrong.
I think Laban's sons were under pressure to do as good taking care of their flock as Jacob was. They obvioulsy were not meeting the numbers expectations.
So they decided to start a bunch of rumors that Jacob was doing something wrong. They got Laban confused.
Apparently there were no facts behind the rumors.
Again, I'm open to hear some other explanations.
After he writes Bellevue a check for it to pay it back - he could then claim that as a tax-free donation.
But has he done this???
Personally, I think there are bigger issues here.
Agreed.
heardenuf
About the lie:
See, that's just it. There are conflicting stories among 5 men, that, had SG allowed a meeting so all could discuss this face to face, we would have it settled.
All these men were on staff and were not hard to find.
This meeting was NOT going to happen. SO we're are left to believe it was a lie because there is not a willingness to follow Matt. 18.
Folks like you can say "how do you know there was a lie?"
I guess SG would rather have it hanging as a question than have it confirmed, otherwise, this could have been EASILY settled.
Thanks again for your list 25+!!
You don't get it if you don't ask.
cjesusnme,
The turtle beat yahoo getting here. Received and read. Thanks.
all,
It is difficult to keep in mind at times that there are many coming to the blog that are not familar with past issues. The one that 25+ mentioned concerning the dream was one such issue.
heardenuf replied that his/her understanding was that there were stipulations made by Mark Sharpe that made the meeting impossible.
I would like to elaborate on those stipulations.
First:
Gather those involved in this issue together in one room;
Steve Gaines
Mark Dougherty
David Smith
Bryson McQuiston
Mark Sharpe
This should have been simple enough because 4 of the 5 were staff members at the time.
Second:
Allow witnesses to be present to validate the responses of the issue in question.
Third:
That was all that was requested.
It would not have been at all difficult to accomplish. As a matter of fact to this day, it could still be accomplished without a great deal of trouble.
If I were Steve Gaines and I could clear up an issue that easily and the truth were not a problem to me personally then I would move as quickly as possible to get it done. By refusing to do such a simple thing, he has allowed many to draw their own conclusions.
Is it any wonder that many have concluded that the truth would be personally damaging to Steve Gaines.
memphis
I wasn't saying SG HAD claimed it as a donation.
I meant that he could and that is why there is a TAX LAW.
Which, by the way, he broke. :)
Piglet said...
memphis
I wasn't saying SG HAD claimed it as a donation.
I meant that he could and that is why there is a TAX LAW.
Sorry, I read it to mean that you expected him to claim it as a donation.
proverbs 12:22 wrote:
"Another friend just read my comment called to say that if you read WTB carefully, it is difficult to know where he stands. He has defended Steve Gaines on some things. He raises questions and wants accountability on other things.
"I don't know what to think. I thought maybe NASS was on to something."
I know WTB. He's definitely not 4545 and doesn't share most of the views that 4545 has expressed here. I was just kidding WTB.
Heardenuf,
You have nerve coming on this blog and accusing this blog of "unfounded accusations/allegations/innuerndo"
You are probably Ace, 4545, or Hisservant just posting under another name. I don't care what name you use, but be very specific in what you say.
95% of the things said on this blog have been true and backed up.
If the investigation is legitimate, the good Truth loving folks on this blog WILL be satisfied. You use the word "legitimate". We know what the word means. I hope you do. If the invistigation is not legitimate, we WON'T be satisfied.
Fact: The head investigator IS closely associated in business with Wayne VanderSteeg and David Hamilton's company. There is a huge conflict of interest here. Whether you agree with that doesn't matter. There are enough Truth seekers who do feel an independant investigator with NO ties to Bellevue insiders would make the investigation legitimate.
If you can't deal in truth, please don't publish your comments.
If Paul Williams looses his job, nobody on this blog needs to appologize to you nor anyone else. Had it not been for people exposing this issue publicly, Steve Gaines and company would have been able to sweep it under the rug. Steve Gaines is the one who said 6 months ago he wasn't going to do anything and that it was "under the blood" as far as he was concerned. If you don't beleive it, I can't help it. Go ask Paul Williams, his son who was abused, or other family members.
If DHS/DCS does nothing, so what? We don't have to base how we handle a pedofile on outside organizations. The Bible is very clear on how to handle something like this.
You ask if Steve Gaine's family is hurt by all of these things?
I'm sure they are. Steve Gaines has himself to blaim for everything he's taken Bellevue through.
I'm more interested in asking the following question to Steve Gaines.
Are you concerced for all of the staff members who have been forced to leave? Are you concerned about their children having their lives uprooted? Are you concerned about families who've had to leave because of you? Do you care that there are families in Bellevue that have been torn apart because of you? Do you care that there are lifelong friendships that have been ripped apart because of your actions?
There will be more to follow.
bible-in-a-year,
There were no street lights in the middle east 4,500 years ago. When it gets dark in the country it gets dark. When the morning light shines on deception, ... well ... evidently it can be pretty ugly. :)
"There are lots of things going on at Bellevue that have nothing to do with Dr. Gaines. Never have and never will. God is getting Bellevue where it needs to be. We need to stop making OUR lists of what WE think needs to be done and give God a clean sheet to write on it what He desires. I can take these tough times, because I know God is at work."
Well said 4545.
heardenuf,
I said someone lied... I don't know who did. But if you have kept up with the blog you know that there is good evidence that either the Associate pastor (at the time) or the pastor did not tell the truth. But like the thread indicates, you have brought us back on topic... deny, deny, deny.
Truth does not fear light.
jmo
No matter what you think of the list I published, Bellevue is like an ocean liner listing on its side right now. That list would help to right her.
It is meant as salt. Salt may sting at first, but it helps heal. I want the best for Bellevue, but without revival and serious reform--the best days are behind us.
jmo
"Pray with us for the truth and God's will in this matter. We're on the same team."
That's what this blog needs more of. I pray that all here are on the same team and want what God wants. It frightens me a little when people say Steve was not called. To me that is between him and God. Now if he fails God, then I believe that God will deal with him. I know how I feel about Steve right now and I just want to wait and see what comes from the investigation without having to read all of the fluff.
heardenuf
You are where we were after Gaines'first set of apologies.
We told our kids he'd made some mistakes but had apologised and we were willing to move on. We had a "wait and see attitude".
After that, it was all downhill.
God bless you.
Oh and BTW... 4545: your comment the other day about "president" etc.
It was flattering, but I'm not him.
The fact that you don't like that list speaks volumes. That list, if followed, would be for the good of the many. Only the few who would lose power would oppose it.
jmo.
Tim the toolman.
I never thought I would say the following words, but you've taught me a truth:
Thank God for Memphis Light Gas and Water
:)
Proverbs- I am not going to get personal with you and argue with you. It seems many of you on here cannot keep from going that direction.
I would love to know what I have said that has been harmful for Dr. Gaines or anything/anyone else.
swtt,
"The head investigator IS closely associated in business with Wayne VanderSteeg and David Hamilton's company."
You lie about things that you know nothing about.
Good intentions (I use that term loosely) with false information still equals the fact that you are spreading a lie.
IMHBAO ;)
bible-in-a-year,
I am still laughing. Your sense of humor is seldom shown, but that was sincerely funny...still laughing.
By the way my comment was intended in complete jest. You have brought up a very interesting point and I intend on doing some studying on that.
...still laughing
I've looked at Jacob's techniques with the speckled goats and spotted and streaked lambs.
I guess Jacob has "pulled the wool over my eyes."
If somebody can explain to me what he did... then I'll be much abliged.
Until then I better stay out of the ranching business. Sounds like those guys take things pretty personally.
Moving on to other texts...
4545,
You and hisservant have been the meanest people on the blog. I think you are the same person. Your attitude and tone damage Steve Gaines. Your words may not, it is all about your blog personality. I have never seen you add anything relevant to a discussion. You snipe and tear others to pieces.
NASS,
Sometimes I am slow. Thank you for clearing that up.
WTB,
I am sooo sorry. I love your posts. I am happy you are not 4545.
all,
I still would be interested in knowing if the church would contribute to a non-profit organization of integrity with the purpose of having that independant organization hire and conduct their own investigation.
It would be logical that an independant organization hiring and conducting a completely independant investigation would be more transparent.
25 years- I have nothing to "lose" with that list but I still don't like it.
there are things I don't like about the way the church is run, but I don't like your vision for it either.
If truth does not fear the light then why does everyone want to hide their tithe information? I have nothing to hide and they can look at my tithe all day long....
I have nothing to hide.
foolparade,
Give us the facts. We've already been through this before and I stand behind what's been published on this blog. The head investigator has a history of working with Bellevue before on HR issues. He's also been involved past and present with Hamilton/VanderSteeg in business. If you have facts, so state. If not, stop lying. I'll back off if you can tell us why the head investigator is on the same company web pages as being connected. I guess you might say it's a cooincidence.
Have you been concerned about the truth coming out of Steve Gaines or the Communications Committee? If so, who inside the current leadership have you contacted? I encourage you to not be afraid of where the truth takes us. The only way for this to happen if to open the doors of secrecy and be transparent. This is not something Steve Gaines and the current leadership have been willing to do.
That is undeniable and it's also unlike Southern Baptist Churches.
Tim,
You bring out the "inner comedian" in everyone here in the board. You are a constant source of blessing around here.
I'll be back tonite.
(offline)
"Your attitude and tone damage Steve Gaines."
This is horribly unfair. Steve Gaines needs to be judged for the man that HE is. Like him or not.
Heardenuf,
You have nerve coming on this blog and accusing this blog of "unfounded accusations/allegations/innuerndo"
You are wrong and you don't care for the Truth.
"You are probably Ace, 4545, or Hisservant just posting under another name."
Not true. Another assumption to discredit. I could say I think you're Mark Sharpe or Jim Heywood, but that would get me nowhere.
"95% of the things said on this blog have been true and backed up. Staff members, lay leaders, and regular members have had so many personal experiences that have been shared. Steve Gaines with his own words have been documented."
All that I have heard is hearsay. I want to hear from the individuals myself. Should I trust what someone says on a blog just because they and others want me to?
All of the financial stuff/the $350 shoes etc. Does that fall into the other 5%. The OP stated "Can anyone confirm that what I've listed is accurate?" I just feel that that is a bad place to start.
"If the invistigation is not legitimate, we WON'T be satisfied.
Fact: The head investigator IS closely associated in business with Wayne VanderSteeg and David Hamilton's company. There is a huge conflict of interest here. Whether you agree with that doesn't matter. There are enough Truth seekers who do feel an independant investigator with NO ties to Bellevue insiders would make the investigation legitimate.
If you can't deal in truth, please don't publish your comments."
I think you have pre-determined the "legitimacy" of the investigation and I think that is wrong since it hasn't been completed. Putting your or others dissent on a open forum is also wrong before the report is complete.
"The minute the church had knowledge of what Paul did, he should have been dismissed that day."
And maybe the report will tell us what was known when. Look, if Steve Gaine's covered things up and was deceitful, I'd be the first one to question his leadership position... but I want to know the facts first.
"Had it not been for people exposing this issue publicly, Steve Gaines and his small band of men would have been able to sweep it under the rug. Steve Gaines is the one who said 6 months ago he wasn't going to do anything and that it was "under the blood" as far as he was concerned. If you don't beleive it, I can't help it. Go ask Paul Williams, his son who was abused, or other family members."
I think that is what the investigation is for. We can't all call Paul and Chris and everyone else who may or may not have known.
"If DHS/DCS does nothing, so what? We don't have to base how we handle a pedofile on outside organizations. The Bible is very clear on how to handle something like this."
Well you wouldn't know that DHS/DCS was not involved by reading this blog.
"You ask if Steve Gaine's family is hurt by all of these things?
I'm sure they are. Steve Gaines has himself to blaim for everything he's taken Bellevue through."
He has himself to blame for being accused of being a liar from the pulpit. For being accused ofconcoting sermons to fit his needs. For being accused of financial improprety of which he has been exonerated.
I'm more interested in asking the following question to Steve Gaines and yourself.
"Are you concerced for all of the staff members who have been forced to leave?"
I would love to hear that straight from them instead of second/third hand.
"Are you concerned about their children having their lives uprooted? Are you concerned about families who've had to leave because of you?"
What did I do? I'm not Steve Gaines in case you are wondering!
Do you care that there are families in Bellevue that have been torn apart because of you?
Wow! Incredible!
Do you care that there are lifelong friendships that have been ripped apart because of your actions?
Oh I see, you just meant that you would ask Steve these questions not me. I wouldn't want anyone to get the wrong idea.
There will be more to follow since you have opened this can of wormns up.
It's not my can of worms that was opened.
bepatient,
You still don't get the tithe thing. Anyone who tithes because someone is checking is tithing for all of the wrong reasons. You tithe is between you and the Lord. God already owns everything you have. For a pastor to tell the staff he is going to check the tithing of them, deacons, ss teachers, choir, etc. is rediculous. How about I'm going to check and see if everyone is reading their Bible each day. If not, you are not allowed to teach, sing in the choir, be on staff, or drive a bus. How about checking to make sure everyone is praying everyday the proper time. Perhaps we could build a prayer building where we can scan a card to show how much time we have spent publicly praying. This all sounds crazy because it is. Are we all about the money? It's always blown my mind that Steve Gaines would be so vocal about people tithing and then tell the congregation "it's none of your business how much I take from the church in my salary package". This is the height of arrogance.
Bible-in-a-year
depends on which chapter you read. Ch 30 gives the actual account and ch 31 gives the explaination to his wife, Now when a man explains to his wife what he has done you can rest assured that he will emblish the truth! Funny how an angel of God enters the story. When a man has to tell you the Lord told me to tell you this you have to be careful. I think that ch 30 is closer to the truth.
"I said someone lied... I don't know who did."
Then why post it as fact. It just creates an atmospher of doubt on both Steve Gaines and the validity of those who disagree with him.
But if you have kept up with the blog you know that there is "good evidence" that either the Associate pastor (at the time) or the pastor did not tell the truth. But like the thread indicates, you have brought us back on topic... deny, deny, deny.'
Good evidence? I still think it's wrong to say someone lied, implying it was the Pastor, without having proof. To my knowldege, no one has said that he heard Steve Gaines say he had a dream. I could just as easily said that evryone on the other side of the issue lied. Maybe misunderstood would be better.
heardenuf,
These are your words not mine.
He has himself to blame for being accused of being a liar from the pulpit. For being accused ofconcoting sermons to fit his needs. For being accused of financial improprety of which he has been exonerated.
Response,
His words have been his own worst enemy.
His sermons I hope are ones he's written. He can't blame what he says on someone else.
He has not been exonerated on financial impropriety.
You still don't get the tithe thing. Anyone who tithes because someone is checking is tithing for all of the wrong reasons. You tithe is between you and the Lord. God already owns everything you have. For a pastor to tell the staff he is going to check the tithing of them, deacons, ss teachers, choir, etc. is rediculous. How about I'm going to check and see if everyone is reading their Bible each day. If not, you are not allowed to teach, sing in the choir, be on staff, or drive a bus.
Agreed. That should be between the person and the Lord. I remember Dr. Rogers saying many times that he taught Lordship and that evrything else, including tithing was taken care of if the Lord was Lord of your life.
This all sounds crazy because it is. Are we all about the money? It's always blown my mind that Steve Gaines would be so vocal about people tithing and then tell the congregation "it's none of your business how much I take from the church in my salary package". This is the height of arrogance.
Once again, you have very valid points, but when you make a statement that it's the height of arrogance you lose some credibility because many may think the height of arrogance is higher!;)
I think you are reading something into the tithing thing that is not there- no one said you are disqualified from serving in the church if you are not tithing. But I do think that someone who is not tithing has some other issues. Surely since the Bible commands us to do it they must have a really good reason for not doing it. And those reasons need to be addressed if they can be.
I do tithe because someone is checking- and that person is God. They can publish my tithe on the front page of the Commercial Appeal for all I care. But that is my personal feeling. And if you want to go to a church where they don't do it, that is your business- I for one do not care.
I know what you mean about praying everyday, etc. But it is the same principle that says they will not allow you to get married in the sanctuary or chapel if you are pregnant. But I know for a fact there are people who were engaging in premarital sex that were married in there. We can only check what we can check.
swtt said
heardenuf,
These are your words not mine.
Oops, these should have been rhetorical questions. Another reason not to post on a blog!!!
He has himself to blame for being accused of being a liar from the pulpit? For being accused of concoting sermons to fit his needs? For being accused of financial improprety of which he has been exonerated?
Response,
His words have been his own worst enemy.
His sermons I hope are ones he's written. He can't blame what he says on someone else.
"He has not been exonerated on financial impropriety. "
This one I still don't get. What is he still being accused of that wasn't covered this summer?
I posted the below yesterday.
NBBCOF- You and the others will not have to worry about me much longer, unless the Lord leads me different. This is not a place that I feel I should be a part of for the most part. I am shocked at what is said and done on this Christian blog. I am also saddened. I know that many of you are hurt and regardless of what you say many of you are angry. I pray that you and others realize that this blog is not the answer and the things contained in no way glorify Christ. That should be any Christians ultimate goal, to glorify Christ in everything.
This is what I'm talking about:
In another thread:
"We should all be in earnest prayer for Paul Williams' son. If Bellevue is refusing to cooperate with authorities and Bellevue ministers are denying his abuse occurred, then Bellevue Baptist Church is now victimizing him all over again. He deserves better than that."
To my knowledge Bellevue has never denied that his abuse occurred. Maybe individuals have, but please post their names. This type of grandstanding is uncalled for as outsiders as well as insiders read this blog and take many if statements as fact.
Proverbs- Think what you will. You and others on here have shown that nothing, including God's Word will change your minds.
It does not really matter what is true and what is not, this blog and the things on it are wrong.
Proverbs 6:16-19 (King James Version)
16These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
heardenuf said...
I can't explain anything for anyone that I do not know about personally. That's the problem on this forum, too many people speak about things that are hearsay and not personally known. Do you know personally that he has done all of these things attributed to him, or have you gleaned many of them from this forum?
1:43 PM, January 11, 2007
How do you know people are speaking about things they don't know personally? I know a lot of people who have made statements both openly and on this blog that have been there when it was said, heard, and seen. Too many staff who's been there know too much. This is where it all started. Men in position called to do a job and be accountable have been hurt for standing up for right. Many of them are no longer on staff. Many of them still are. We would have been better off with a "Whistle Blower Act" inside the church.
heardenuf- Well Said.
swtt,
"Give us the facts."
OK
"We've already been through this before and I stand behind what's been published on this blog."
That's your problem... you'd rather stand by conspiracy theories and suppositions than get the facts for yourself. Have you asked Mike about his work history with David's company? How about David... asked him yet? Or Wayne?
"The head investigator has a history of working with Bellevue before on HR issues."
True.
"He's also been involved past and present with Hamilton/VanderSteeg in business."
False. You lie when you add "present." His employment with DH ended in the fall of 2004. Since then, he has not worked for DH. In fact, he runs his own business totally separate from Impact Logistics.
"If you have facts, so state."
I just did; do with the truth (that is what you want, right?) what you will.
"If not, stop lying."
I've already told you, you are the one who is actively spreading lies.
"I'll back off if you can tell us why the head investigator is on the same company web pages as being connected."
The web page showing Mike as an employee is over 2 years old.
"I guess you might say it's a cooincidence."
Nope... maybe bad web editting?
"Have you been concerned about the truth coming out of Steve Gaines or the Communications Committee?"
You don't really want an answer to that... you're trying to lead me to another line of arguement that has been well rehearsed every time one of you is proved wrong on this blog. Divert me so that I will forget what we were talking about.
"If so, who inside the current leadership have you contacted?"
Again, no comment.
"I encourage you to not be afraid of where the truth takes us."
Trust me, I have no fear of truth, or "light," as it has been called elsewhere. Here lies another problem... many on this blog have confused "heat" with "light." Come at me with light; save your heat for someone else.
"The only way for this to happen if to open the doors of secrecy and be transparent."
Great idea... begin by showing us your name? Oh, you meant that someone ELSE needs to be transparent. Ok...
"This is not something Steve Gaines and the current leadership have been willing to do."
Disagree.
To sum up... call Mike, ask him his employment history with Impact. He'll shoot you straight. You might find out that this guy is EXACTLY the person who needs to be leading the investigation.
Imagine my surprise to know some thought I might be Ace, 4545, and hisservant. I am sure those fellows (or ladies) took great offense at that accusation.
As NASS said, I am none of those people. It is confusing enough keeping up with the blog now. How much worse would it be for someone trying to post on both sides and under various names?
foolparade,
What's the name of Mike's company?
and
Yes, you just made my point. There is a connection. Why would the church not hire an independant investigator. The word independant in Bellevue's case should mean someone with no ties.
David Hamilton and Wayne VanderSteeg from what I've heard them say are absolutely 100% in Steve Gaines's corner. This is not hearsay.
I have been sitting thinking about the checking of tithes, and I am not so sure I think it is a bad thing if it done for the right reason (i.e. not in $$ but that there are tithes), and I will explain my thoughts, but be prepared, cause I will have to leave here soon :)
Do I want to be taught about tithing by someone who does not practice what they preach??
heardenuf
Regarding financial improprieties:
Please see my posts from 2:48 and 3:04.
The co-mingling was admitted to in the CC mailout but not addressed as a violation of the law.
There are others that need investigating that I won't mention here.
Stay tuned.
memphis,
Who checks the pastor's tithing?
Should someone on staff purchase alcohol at a restaurant within 1 mile of the church? Do we preach against drinking?
Should we preach against child molestation and protect someone on staff that has admitted to doing so 17 years ago?
Should we preach praying if someone is not praying themselves?
Should we preach against not telling the truth if someone teaching or preaching is not telling the truth on a regular basis?
These things are between the person and God. If we are going to have a checklist, lets become super legalistic.
You can't pick and choose. You'll never get it right.
heardenuf said...
This is what I'm talking about:
In another thread:
"We should all be in earnest prayer for Paul Williams' son. If Bellevue is refusing to cooperate with authorities and Bellevue ministers are denying his abuse occurred, then Bellevue Baptist Church is now victimizing him all over again. He deserves better than that."
To my knowledge Bellevue has never denied that his abuse occurred. Maybe individuals have, but please post their names. This type of grandstanding is uncalled for as outsiders as well as insiders read this blog and take many if statements as fact.
4:43 PM, January 11, 2007
heardenuf,
I posted that and I stand behind. It was far from grandstanding. It was said in response to the reports of those who heard Jamie Fish speak to Paul Williams class last Sunday. I have talked with David Brown personally and I know exactly what he has said on the matter of Bellevue's cooperation. The post was made in the context of that discussion and was appropriate under the circumstances.
Also, please note I used the qualifier "if." I did not say it happened. I said "if" it happened. As Rush Limbaugh often says "words mean things."
It's a joke to check tithing anyway.
There's no way to know if someone is tithing or not without seeing tax returns.
What if you had someone giving $20,000 per year. Nobody is going to say a word to that person. What if the person is actually making $1,000,000 per year? Nobody is going to know but we'll be satisfied with the $20,000 and we'll let him serve. The whole idea of checking for tithing is crazy. Steve Gaines in his own words has been recorded saying this is his philosophy.
fool-on-parade
You don't know what you are talking about and you don't know who you're talking to.
Many you are talking to KNOW the facts for themselves because they've seen and heard themselves.
Do you really believe we are here since May for a lie?
We have better things to do.
More information upcoming.
What is this "stay tuned" stuff??
Our accounting department and finance department have always done a GREAT job and have always gotten rave reviews. If there were any problems with co-mingling etc, I am sure they were addressed.
Piglet- We have an outside firm come in every single year and go over things with a fine tooth comb.
So you are claiming one of 2 things.
1. Either Dr. Gaines did not know and made a MISTAKE
2. Dr. Gaines new exactly what he was doing and did it on purpose.
which do you believe?
that is why I said maybe not checking the $$ or amount, but that they are tithing.
I know a percentage doesn't matter if you do not know the entire amount...
I don't think the idea is to check the dollar amount of what is being given against the tax returns. I think the idea is that if a person IS NOT TITHING at ALL there is a problem. And to my recollection, not one ever said they were checking the dollar amounts. You are putting words in people's mouths.
4545
Ask the CC folks. They admitted this was done. I'm not sure how they are explaining it.
As for "what's this stay tuned stuff?" That's for me to know and you to find out.
mo-scratch said- 4545 - I wonder if SG has learned from all of this. You seem to know him better than most here. What is your opinion? Has he learned from his mistakes? If so, how specifically? I am ready to forgive him and support him, but I can't help but wonder if he is changed for the better due to all of this.
REPLY- Yes, I think he has grown and learned a great deal from everything that has happened. He told us one of his first Sunday mornings at Bellevue that he was going to make mistakes along the way. He has and we all have. Many were so used to Dr. Rogers and how everything seemed to be perfect all the time. Things were never perfect, they just seemed that way to some. I for one am very happy that God sent Dr. Gaines to Bellevue. I truly feel that we were in for some tough times no matter who was Pastor and I am glad Dr. Gaines is here. We needed someone strong and I thank God for Dr. Gaines everyday. We will get through these tough times in God's timing and be stronger and more dependent on Him than ever. There are lots of things going on at Bellevue that have nothing to do with Dr. Gaines. Never have and never will. God is getting Bellevue where it needs to be. We need to stop making OUR lists of what WE think needs to be done and give God a clean sheet to write on it what He desires. I can take these tough times, because I know God is at work.
piglet- You did not answer my question. What do you think happened? Was it a mistake or not?
4545
If God is at work, and I believe He is, then you should want all of the truth to come to light.
Why not encourage the leaders you support to have this meeting with David Smith, Mark Sharpe, Bryson McQuiston, Mark Dougharty, and Steve Gaines?
Proverbs 6:16-19 (King James Version)
16These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
Why those certain people Piglet?
4545
I don't know.
Either it was on purpose, which is criminal,
OR
It was negligence and a pastor of 20+ years who has been accostomed to these laws should know better.
I still am more concerned about other issues, it's just that this issue keeps being raised that there were NO financial improprieties.
I think the IRS sometimes has trouble proving intent. Intent isn't the issue, although, if we KNEW it was on purpose it would be even more serious.
4545
You asked "why these people"?
Please read the above posts about the lie issue that began in MAY and has YET to be addressed.
25+ elaborated on this.
4545 said...
We have an outside firm come in every single year and go over things with a fine tooth comb.
Reply:
The audit that we have every year is a compliance audit. It insures that everything is done in accordance with Generally Accepted Accounting Practices and Procedures.
An item of interest would be the $25,000 check to FUMC.
Provided that a check was issued and not cash.
Provided that the disbursement was properly authorized.
Provided that the check was properly signed.
Provided that the disbursement was properly recorded.
This one item receives glowing audit reviews. The audit does not take into consideration the content of what is being audited, just that it is being done properly.
There would be no revelation in a GAAPP audit that would disclose donations to causes inconsistent with the church, provided that accounting procedures were properly followed.
That would require a targeted audit and it would have to be performed based on a criteria of what is an acceptable disbursement and what is not.
Just a side note on that our Communication Committee Chairman, Harry Smith, is a CPA and would be very familar with this.
westnbarrister said:
heardenuf,
I posted that and I stand behind. It was far from grandstanding. It was said in response to the reports of those who heard Jamie Fish speak to Paul Williams class last Sunday. I have talked with David Brown personally and I know exactly what he has said on the matter of Bellevue's cooperation. The post was made in the context of that discussion and was appropriate under the circumstances.
Also, please note I used the qualifier "if." I did not say it happened. I said "if" it happened. As Rush Limbaugh often says "words mean things."
4:56 PM, January 11, 2007
Exactly, if. Why not if not>heardenuf,
I posted that and I stand behind. It was far from grandstanding. It was said in response to the reports of those who heard Jamie Fish speak to Paul Williams class last Sunday. I have talked with David Brown personally and I know exactly what he has said on the matter of Bellevue's cooperation. The post was made in the context of that discussion and was appropriate under the circumstances.
Also, please note I used the qualifier "if." I did not say it happened. I said "if" it happened. As Rush Limbaugh often says "words mean things."
4:56 PM, January 11, 2007
Exactly, if. Why not IF not? What kind of qualifier allows you to state something that may be untrue. How would you like it IF someone posted something harmful about you, your family or friends with the IF as a qualifier. I would think that most people would be offended. I would hope that you would consider not posting something that you do not have first hand or factual knowledge of for the sake of all concerned.
junior5432
Great post.
That's the problem with some who post here. They take everything the leadership says as gospel and you just can't do that if they've been accused of something.
"To err is human, to cover up is also," Dr. Rogers has said.
Check the facts. Talk to people.
I listened to them for awhile and then I decided to form my own opinions.
Boy, there sure was a lot more to it than "Folks just don't like the music".
PUUULEEEEESE!
(Signing off till later)
swtt,
"What's the name of Mike's company?"
HR Mpact, started when he worked for David and taken AS HIS OWN when he left the company in 2004.
"Yes, you just made my point. There is a connection..."
Let me interrupt you here... WAS a connection. BIG difference between "employed" and "no longer employed."
"Why would the church not hire an independant investigator. The word independant in Bellevue's case should mean someone with no ties."
Mike doesn't attend Bellevue and has no vested interest in the church other than the fact that he is a Christian brother. From what I
"David Hamilton and Wayne VanderSteeg from what I've heard them say are absolutely 100% in Steve Gaines's corner."
And??? What does that have to do with Mike Stavropoulos?
Piglet,
"You don't know what you are talking about and you don't know who you're talking to."
Likewise.
david s said:
"Tim,
I agree. Heardenuf isn’t familiar with some basic issues and seems to want documentation that was provided weeks ago."
I may be or may not be familiar with basic issues, but you'll never know because I hide behind this screen name like so many others here.
My purpose here is to try and hold people accountable for their statements that are, at the least, inflammatory and at the worst, slander.
The problem is that no one can provide this "documentation" that you mention. I just want you to consider what you actually know and what you think you know or have been told.
piglet said:
junior5432
Great post.
"That's the problem with some who post here. They take everything the leadership says as gospel and you just can't do that if they've been accused of something.:
ACCUSED of something. Many here take everything posted as "the gospel".
"To err is human, to cover up is also," Dr. Rogers has said.
"Check the facts. Talk to people."
What facts? I find it hard to find anything here that is factual, if, if, if.
What people? The one's who just want Steve gone?
"I listened to them for awhile and then I decided to form my own opinions."
Which you are entitled to, but don't you think we should all stay away from if statements?
"Boy, there sure was a lot more to it than "Folks just don't like the music"."
So your saying that when Mark Sharpe went to the Pastor way back when and started all of this is was because Steve Gaines would one day find out that a 34 year staff member would out himself as a pedophile...
"PUUULEEEEESE!"
Yes, please.
"(Signing off till later)"
Me too!
5:29 PM, January 11, 2007
piglet said:
heardenuf
Regarding financial improprieties:
Please see my posts from 2:48 and 3:04.
"The co-mingling was admitted to in the CC mailout but not addressed as a violation of the law."
Is it not true that Dr. Roger's did the same thing regarding gas expenditures? IF the IRS has not become involved then I would like to know what else should be done.
"There are others that need investigating that I won't mention here."
Of course, then I would ask for "documentation" that you would say has been provided before I got here. It would be so easy just to post what is wrong and be done with it.
"Stay tuned."
I will.
If you apply to work or volunteer at the church, they check your references, Bible Fellowship attendance, etc. Why should your tithe be any different? Again, I don't believe SG has elaborated on exactly what level of checking would be done. You all are (as usual) assuming the worst.
For someone reviewing the applications to just verify you are tithing regularly is not a big deal. If you are an employee already, and each year at your review they check to see if you have tithed throughout the past year is not unreasonable. You work for a church. When I worked at the bank, they checked my credit on a periodic basis. That is just part of it.
I don't understand why people are so demanding of SG to reveal his assets and salary, etc but want total privacy when it comes to what they are doing.
NO ONE ever said how this would be checked or if SG would have someone checking his. He very well may have someone check his.
As far as people only tithing because someone is looking is a problem they need to deal with God on.
It is just like those programs for people that monitor the computers to see if they are looking at pornography. Are you really saying that the ONLY reason they are not looking is because someone will know? You just can't know someone's heart on things like this.
inside the inner circle, it's said that Steve Gaines has learned a lot since coming to Bellevue.
The biggest thing he's learned is that people are on to his ways here who won't stand for wrong. The church and the pulpit are too precious to our Lord to let someone abuse it.
The members of Bellevue have learned something as well. Standing for Truth is always the right thing to do and the Lord demands it. We are also learning that there are consequences to actions.
Call me crazy here, but I don't think the bible specifies that you have to give your tithes to the church. I think donating to a charity (such as a soup kitchen, homeless shelter, etc) or just giving money to someone in need could be considered a tithe.
To specify that the money has to be tithed to the church sounds more like legalism to me.
The only one who should be concerned about tithing is God himself. Not Steve Gaines.
swtt said:
"inside the inner circle, it's said that Steve Gaines has learned a lot since coming to Bellevue.
The biggest thing he's learned is that people are on to his ways here who won't stand for wrong. The church and the pulpit are too precious to our Lord to let someone abuse it."
Hey, it just so happens that I'm familiar with the inner circle too. We must know each other. However, I have yet to hear anyone(nameless) that has said that Steve has learned that people are "on to his ways". Maybe there are two inner circles. I'll post the names of my inner circle if you will!
"The members of Bellevue have learned something as well. Standing for Truth is always the right thing to do and the Lord demands it. We are also learning that there are consequences to actions."
I agree that standing for the truth is always the right thing to do. Let's stand together and wait to hear what the truth is when the report comes out!
heardenuff,
We are to be Bereans and know the Word. Paul commended them for checking everything he taught against scripture. That did NOT make Paul mad. He commended them.
We will give an account on who we followed...whose teaching we sit under. We are a 'priesthood' of believers and do not need a priest to know God. WE have Jesus and we are to know His Word. We have no excuses. We cannot plead ignorance when we stand before Him.
With that said, I have serious concerns about a pastor of 20 something years who has not handled himself according to scripture on quite a few situations including the scandal of a pedophile minister. He ignored 1 Corinthians 5. He has ignored Titus and Timothy. He has been secretive and unavailable to those with questions about this matter. Is this correct in the Body of Christ where we are all equals?
Is he more worried about the world than he is about the purity of Christ's Bride?
I know that quoting scripture is considered 'unloving' and legalistic today but it is ALL we have to go by. When the shepherd does not go by scripture or uses scripture in such a way as to excuse behavior, I think we should be asking ourselves if we need to be sitting under his teaching.
If the media was wrong about Gaines, why isn't he saying so publically? This is serious and waiting for an 'internal' investigation to answer basic questions being asked is ridiculous. This is NOT the Catholic church and he is not a priest. Elders in scripture are SERVANTS of the Body of Christ.
By their fruit you should know them. I am heartbroken for the Body of Christ that is becoming so worldly we can hardly see the difference between us and the world.
koragg,
my point is this- if they see you are not tithing, they would call you in to talk to you and you could then say " I give my money to X place and here is why". I think that is fine. I am not saying you have to tithe to the church (although personally I feel we should- you are using the lights and building and programs, etc and you should help support it) but only that it should be checked out if you are not tithing.
From the December 17th "official" statement by Steve Gaines regarding PW:
"However, he will have no church responsibilities and will not be on campus during this review process."
PW was reportedly seen on the Bellevue campus last night. That must mean the investigation is finished.
linden,
Wow! Well said.
Would you be so kind as to email me? Would appreciate it.
:)
New BBC Open Forum,
Just more of the same wouldn't you say NBBCOF? Say one thing and do another? Or say one thing and mean another? Just more of the same.
Dr. Gray has ben contacted by Steve Gaines to speak at Sunday's Deacon's Meeting.
Steve Gaines was seen this week In Mike Spradlin's office.
QUESTION:
Is Steve Gaines using these men to help his position?
Will SG tell the Deacons Sunday that he met with MS and Dr. Gray?
Why would he even mentions this Sunday??
Maybe to make it look like they are all three in agreement?
Remember, things are not always as they seem?
Think about it??
heardenuf
I bet you have heard enough! In reading your post I'm reminded of "don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up."
You stated that "some people don't want to know the turth." I agree with you 100% on that. You heardenuf are that one! You can sling mud and try to disrupt and twist truth all you want, but facts are fact and that is what this blog is all about. Your strategy is seen through. That strategy of you and 4545 and ace and mike bratton, try with all your might to silence the truth. But truth is hard to hide. Lies will eventually be exposed. And that is what is happening here. What investiment do you fear losing by not accepting facts?
You put so muuch into this investigation and its outcome. First there is a cloud of deceit and refusal to cooperate with this so called investgation. It is a stalling tactic. The people involved with it have conflict of interest. It is already a joke. If there was a thread of honesty about any "investigation" then it would have been done with transparency and an open door. It has been reported sg refuses to cooperate with the state. It sppears like another inside debacle, and it most likely is one. Everytime deceit is used by the leadership to "cut losses" they find themselves in even hotter water.
That is what happens when you refuse to do things God's way and insist on doing them your own way.
What are they investigaing that cannot be done with PW off the payroll? PW confessed; sg confessed to having known this for 7 months now and nothing no nothing was done. This is a sham of an investigation thus far. What shred of hope are you hanging onto?
As far as your fear and arguments about not having an open meeting with microphones goes, it only shows your refusal to accept facts and your fear of the truth. Who are you to determine if a question is a legitimate question? As far as I know all the truely legitimate questions that have been asked have not been answered or LIES have been given as answers. That is fact.
I suspeact that to you a questsion that is not legitimate is a question who's answer show the inability or unwillingness of leadership to handle any problems they cause. And where they are found out to be guilty.
As far as sg being exonerated from "financial impropriety" or using church funds for personal use or breaking the law with comingiing of funds, that is simply not true. You seem to think because sg says something that makes it true. It has unfortunately been proven that he is not honest in what he says and has little if any integrity. What make something true or false is if it indeed is true or false, NOT because sg said so.
NBBCOF,
PW was reportedly seen on the Bellevue campus last night. That must mean the investigation is finished.
Who "reported" this? What/Who is your source?
Facts,
You presented absolutely no facts at all in your last post. Only speculation and gossip.
Say it with me now. G-O-S-S-I-P.
Good job! :)
Some of my sources are like yours, Ace. Say it with me now...
C-O-N-F-I-D-E-N-T-I-A-L
:-)
Rod,
That strategy of you and 4545 and ace and mike bratton, try with all your might to silence the truth.
I have not done that and I haven't seen that from Mike or 4545 either. On the other hand, I see posts being deleted here with facts on an almost daily basis. Who is the one trying to silence the truth now?
I've seen enough posts from you and they really are a joke... (notice I am attacking your posts and not you)
NBBCOF,
Some of my sources are like yours, Ace. Say it with me now...
My sources aren't confidential. Anything I post is easily obtainable through the right channels. Most people here are not seeking the truth, though. They are too lazy to really do that.
One more thing...and because of their laziness, they rely on others to do the research for them. Then those people are not trustworthy, and yet they believe them, causing more rumors to go around.
It's sad, isn't it?
At least we know one thing: these men, Dr. Grey and Dr Spradlin won't allow sg to use them, if he is trying to get some legitimacy.
Well said ezekiel! That is true.
ace, why do you even come here to peddle you stuff?
ace, why do you even come here to peddle you stuff?
Rod, do you have more of a right to be here than me?
What is your purpose ace? I think we can all see what your purpose is here.
Rod,
What is your purpose ace? I think we can all see what your purpose is here.
Since it's so clear what my purpose is, could you please enlighten me?
It's very clear what my purpose is....it's to help spread the Truth among all the lies and gossip surrounding BBC.
Do you not like me, Rod? Would you rather me go away for good?
Does anyone know about a 300.00 dollar pair of shoes?
Facts- You need to check the "facts" in your last post.
Rod- PLEASE do not even bring the shoes junk up. Why?? You just learned of this rumor??
Are jamie fish and mark dougharty out of the loop and confidence OR are they liars?
The lies and gossip about bellevue have come from the leadership, ace, not this blog.
Rod,
The lies and gossip about bellevue have come from the leadership, ace, not this blog.
Wow! So there are no lies and gossip that have originated on this site?
Rod,
Case and point: your shoes comment just a few minutes ago.
ace, rod, 4545,
Please go to your respective corners and cool off. Or take it to private discussion. There's no place for it here.
Thank you,
NBBCOF
No comment ace, just a question that no one has answered for me. Sorry, your off again.
NBCCOF,
Yes ma'am. I was just trying to give people the truth. Rod is helping spred gossip and I was trying to set him straight.
Rod,
No comment ace, just a question that no one has answered for me. Sorry, your off again.
I'm not off...as people from your "side" often suggest, go start reading the posts here and all the comments from day 1 and you'll find your answer. If you don't want to do that, then you can rest assured that that topic is purely gossip.
ace wrote:
"Yes ma'am. I was just trying to give people the truth. Rod is helping spred gossip and I was trying to set him straight."
No, with all due respect, Ace, you were just arguing. You all were. You don't have a monopoly on the truth, and Rod doesn't need you to explain his motives. Please just DROP IT!
NBBCOF
Nbbcof,
It seems everytime ACE/4545 is posting - there is strife. Perhaps she could do dome research on who is the father of strife?
Mrs. C,
Perhaps she could do dome research on who is the father of strife?
Are you suggesting that I am the "father of strife"? You called me a she..wouldn't that make me the mother of strife?
-ACE (AKA Janie...or is it Wendy?)
Dear Friends,
I ask that each of you take a moment to click on this link and read this story. I think it will give us all a heart of thankfulness for the freedom we share to communicate freely with each other. Something I for one take for granted all too often.
Ace...
It sounds to me that Mrs. C. was referring to the fact that every time you are posting, that it creates strife on the blog. I do not want to attempt to explain why, but if you will go back and review the posts, it is apparent that your presence does generate strife.
I doubt that she was calling you the devil, but it sure looks like his playground when you are around. Perhaps you should try not to sound so accusatory and argumentative about things that are not a matter of specualtion any longer. Please do not take this as an "attack", it isn't. JMHO
Mom4,
It sounds to me that Mrs. C. was referring to the fact that every time you are posting, that it creates strife on the blog.
Yes, that what I inferred from her message, as well.
I do not want to attempt to explain why, but if you will go back and review the posts, it is apparent that your presence does generate strife.
I can explain this really fast. I am in the minority here. Because of that, most people disagree with me. Would you not agree that while most people express their dislike of me here, deep down inside you know they like me coming back again and again? It basically gives them someone to attack. It's hard to explain, actually... hopefully you get my point.
I doubt that she was calling you the devil, but it sure looks like his playground when you are around.
And, unfortunately, that's not my fault. That is out of my hands. Again, I have never posted hateful messages, unlike what I've received from other people here
Perhaps you should try not to sound so accusatory and argumentative about things that are not a matter of specualtion any longer.
Perhaps people here should treat me with the love as a Brother in Christ? Instead of constantly making fun of me and attacking me.
Please do not take this as an "attack", it isn't. JMHO
I didn't perceive your message as an attack. I would actually like to see more posts of yours directed towards me....I could smell the love in your post. :)
Davids wrote: heard Bob Russell of SECC say that he once asked to see the tithing records. “I’ll never to that again,” he said. “I found out why some of the elders opposed me doing that! I also found it hard not to treat people differently according to what I knew.” I think that is an honest statement that cuts to the heart of why pastors should not read tithing records."
David, Don't believe everything you hear.
Friends, On tithing:
OT: 10% of first fruits
NT: If your brother needs help, sell your house and help him.
(That 10% is looking pretty good now, eh?)
An interesting website about tithing...
Ace:
I think it's just the challenge--keeps the mind sharp. (You can count me out on that, though.) I don't like the striving with my brothers and sisters. No picking on Ace or any others who disagree with me.
Dee
Ezekiel:
What you said about "tithing" is right on--once again. That reading through the Bible sets you straight on all matters, doesn't it?
Keep it up, Brother. I know where you are coming from.
Dee
To my reading, some of you guys are insinuating that Dr. Allison does not support Pastor Gaines and/or that he is in agreement with Dr. Spradlin's comments.
If that is the case you need to stop it.
iwasthere,
why do people need to stop? perhaps some here do have first hand information of the validity of that statement.
ACE and 4545
With perhaps the exception of "Sunday" you're going to need say "you were right" to Facts.
Andrew
The new sermon notes are now up. I must say I'm a bit confused though, as Romans 16:20-21 seems to be an odd passage to preach from. Anyone have any ideas?
Andrew,
With perhaps the exception of "Sunday" you're going to need say "you were right" to Facts.
So in other words he was wrong.
He posted incorrect information and until he corrects himself, it is still incorrect on his part...so he hasn't been right on anything yet.
IWasThere said...
To my reading, some of you guys are insinuating that Dr. Allison does not support Pastor Gaines and/or that he is in agreement with Dr. Spradlin's comments.
If that is the case you need to stop it.
8:53 PM, January 11, 2007
----
Tell me more.
Andrew
Would anyone DENY that SG said that Dr. Rogers was his best friend? That he was like a Paw to him? That Dr. Rogers was his Mentor? If, he felt this way about Dr. Rogers. I would hate for him to have been his enemy.
How many more of you out there think SG is your friend?
Just curious.
ace said...
Andrew,
With perhaps the exception of "Sunday" you're going to need say "you were right" to Facts.
He posted incorrect information and until he corrects himself, it is still incorrect on his part...so he hasn't been right on anything yet.
9:26 PM, January 11, 2007
---
Why so angry? It drips from your posts. I am a follower of Christ and if you are we, you, me and Christ are brothers. Why so angry?
Statements that Facts made were simple.
May I suggest that you simply look into it tonight or tomorrow and find the truth for yourself.
Andrew
foolparade,
Thanks for your 5:29 post. What you said validated my point. I'm glad you see it the same way.
Bellevue and Mike the "investigator" have strong ties to one another via the Chairman of the Finance Committe and former Board Chairman of ECS, Wayne VanderSteeg.
I don't know how much more anyone could say about their relationship than you yourself have said. Truth is impossible for some people. Why can't you bring yourself to accept it?
David s,
Yeah, I wonder if it's a misprint... otherwise I guess I'll just have to wait til sunday to see.
Though, "Fully Assured I Trust Him" is another way of defining FAITH. He uses that in "I Believe in Salvation" as well.
graceupongrace, I have no idea? Bizarre. Wonder why poor Tertius gets left out? He did all the writing!
But this one cracked me up:
1 Corin 1:20
20For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory.
Aren't 'amens' not allowed at BBC anymore? :o) Just kidding folks!
good night
Andrew,
Why so angry? It drips from your posts.
I am not angry.
I am a follower of Christ and if you are we, you, me and Christ are brothers. Why so angry?
Again, I'm not angry. You are simply jumping to conclusions and assuming I am angry, and you are incorrect.
Statements that Facts made were simple.
Simple, yet incorrect. You stated that with 'Sunday' mentioned in the post, it was wrong but if you take it out it's right. But guess what? It's in the post, therefore it's wrong.
Ace,
Be on guard, stay surrendered, keep a short list, and let's love God and one another.
Father, I don't know who Ace is. My heart heart goes out to him/her. I want to ask that you to please speak gently but loudly to us tonight. Holy Spirit, help us to surrender our thoughts, feelings, and agendas to you - completely...withholding nothing. May You receive glory from our lives. Help us to see ourselves as you see us. Help us to walk humbly before you and before each other. We are Yours O Lord. We acknowledge You as being in control and ruler over all and us as Your bond servants. Co-laborers of Your Son Jesus Christ. May you have total control of our lives, thoughts and deeds through our complete submission to You. Thank You Father for being One with us. We are just earthen vessels and are unworthy apart from Your Son and His all sufficient blood. May we not dishonor You on the blog or in any other way. Thank You for dealing with us in mercy and justice. Please help us to love one another and to allow You to have preeminence in our life. We love You Father. We thank You and we yield to You. In Jesus' name. Amen.
Andrew
I find it interesting that the blog has been accused of just a handful of disgruntled sheep.
Some interesting statistics are emerging that make me believe that Steve Gaines and his close inner circle are starting to get the message.
For the first time in anyone's memory at Bellevue, Bible Fellowship attendance has had some Sunday's here of late that outnumber the number of sanctuary worship attenders. A lot of us are attending Bible Fellowship and not the worship service because it's hard to listen to Steve Gaines give self serving sermons and listen to someone that doesn't practice what he preaches.
The numbers are very telling. Everyone who is a regular has heard people say this over and over.
Worship Service attendance is down as much as 25% in some services from a year ago.
With 1500 new members in the past year and averaging 9000 in worship a year ago, that would make the average attendance now of 6500 (both services combined) down somewhere between 3,000-3,500 per Sunday. I'd say this is more than a handful of disgruntled sheep.
At the end of June 2006, giving was up 25% over budget. We were on target to have $30-32 million (yes that's $30,000,000 to $32,000,000) in tithes and offerings by December 31. It looks like we ended up 5% over the $25 million budget which is about $26,500,000. The last half of the year's giving started going down and for the last quarter, giving was actually below budget. Less money taken in the last quarter than what the budgeted expenses were. I don't remember that ever happening.
This is very serious to Steve Gaines and his inner circle. They are very concerned and we WILL be seeing a huge difference in their attitude starting now. $$ does count.
It's sad it came to this because a lot of good people who have served faithfully in many areas have moved their membership. A lot of Bible Fellowship teachers have resigned. A lot of others are contemplating leaving.
Steve Gaines, please do what it takes immediately to heal our church. Start with openess, honesty, and undoing a lot of the things that have been done in this past 16 months to harm our beloved Bellevue.
It's never too late to do the right thing. Repentance by all of us can start revival but it won't start unless everything is laid bare.
Statements that Facts made were simple.
Simple, yet incorrect. You stated that with 'Sunday' mentioned in the post, it was wrong but if you take it out it's right. But guess what? It's in the post, therefore it's wrong.
---
Ace, I said "perhaps". Meaning maybe. I am unaware of a Sunday Deacons meeting but that doesn't mean Dr. Allison was not asked to teach three times to the deacons at another time.
Why would you use my post to prove Facts wrong? How do you know I'm right? Fair questions?
Andrew
SWTT,
Some very good observations. Might I enquire about where you are coming up with those numbers? Is there a publication or something with all of that written down? I've said for quite a while that the only way to get SG and the other men's attention was to hit them in the pocketbook. We'll see.
swtt
Wow!
Excuse me, please. I've only been looking at this a short time tonight, but don't you think most preachers would know that "alter" means to change and that "altar" is the way you would spell "altar call"?
Not picking on anyone--just curious about that.
Dee
ju,
I'm sorry but I can't tell you where this information came from. It did come from inside the walls of Bellevue, not necessarily a staff memeber. I can say there are many (yes many) staff members who are seeking God's direction as we all are in these very difficult days.
I beleive we are at a critical point in the life of Bellevue. I pray each of us are prayed up, confessed up, and seeking God, not man in this struggle.
God Bless you.
Piglett,
I just noticed that WOW upside down is MOM.
I'm sorry. I know this didn't have anything to do with the blog tonight but thought I'd mention it anyway since you must be a mom.
Andrew said- ACE and 4545
With perhaps the exception of "Sunday" you're going to need say "you were right" to Facts.
REPLY- Please explain.
Thank you SWTT and I pray that God will bless you and your family and all of us here on this blog and at BBC. I pray that He guides SG and the rest of the leadership to His Will.
ju,
This is part of the problem. There isn't any publication for the congregation to see these numbers. 95% of all Southern Baptist Churches publish each week in their bulletin the giving and attendance for the previous week and where we stand vs. budget.
Only pride would keep a church from not publishing these records.
I just don't understand it. Size has nothing to do with it so I don't want to hear anyone out there say we can't do that because we are Bellevue and we have 30,000 members. We should be no different than any other Southern Baptist Church.
swtt said- 95% of all Southern Baptist Churches publish each week in their bulletin the giving and attendance for the previous week and where we stand vs. budget.
1. Just not true
2. I see no reason to do so.
Could really care less either way.
4545 - Thanks for your response to my questions and for reposting them several times. I am a little conflicted. I love SG in the Lord and want to see him do well. On the other hand, I feel he acted unilaterally and with no accountability in some areas and that is what led to his mistakes. On the other hand, if he truly is humbled by it all and repentant, than I agree with you that he is a great preacher and can be used of God at Bellevue.
I also am hesitant to "convict" him without hard facts and realize if I am wrong, will be held accountable. Therefore, I for one, will not be kicking him while he is down. From now on, I will be collapsing the comments and reading only your posts and those you are responding to. I encourage you to keep posting here. You ARE getting through to some. I still have more reservations about Dr. Gaines than you, but am glad you are here. Blessings to you, my brother.
swtt- Do you and others actually think that we are going to do all these things that you have listed (your lists)???
Rod Almondmartanti said...
You stated that "some people don't want to know the turth." I agree with you 100% on that. You heardenuf are that one! You can sling mud and try to disrupt and twist truth all you want, but facts are fact and that is what this blog is all about.
If that were only the case, the bitterness and pugnacity rampant in the writings of the "regulars" wouldn't be there.
Your strategy is seen through. That strategy of you and 4545 and ace and mike bratton, try with all your might to silence the truth.
Neither would the personal insults. Rod, I don't know that we've ever met, but enough is really enough. You would no doubt be far more well-mannered in a real-time conversation, so let that same sensibility express itself here, all right?
But truth is hard to hide. Lies will eventually be exposed. And that is what is happening here. What investiment do you fear losing by not accepting facts?
Oh, here's a fact. Let me quote myself thusly, and like so:
"Do I love my church? Absolutely.
"Do I love my pastor? Absolutely.
"Do I love those who disagree with him? Absolutely.
"Which is why I must encourage my pastor and my church to convene in a business meeting. We have business which requires our attention, because it is distracting us from our singular responsibility of sharing Christ with a lost and dying world."
Does that, Rod, bear any resemblence to what you said? Here, for comparison's sake I quote you again, thusly and like so:
As far as your fear and arguments about not having an open meeting with microphones goes, it only shows your refusal to accept facts and your fear of the truth.
We both want a business meeting.
Imagine that.
--Mike
swtt:
Yep.
All:
I think it's safe to say that all of us, regardless of our viewpoint should be able to pray for God's will, His direction, and the truth unveiled.
4545
We used to get an update every week in our SS class when giving and attendance was up. What changed?
4545,
So based on your question about whether some of us on this blog think that "we are going to do all these things" I take it you are a staff member? Following that line do you refute the numbers that SWTT just stated? If you cannot I understand if you will not but know them to be true then do you not see there is a much larger crisis?
4545 said...
swtt said- 95% of all Southern Baptist Churches publish each week in their bulletin the giving and attendance for the previous week and where we stand vs. budget.
1. Just not true
2. I see no reason to do so.
---------------------
Response: I can't speak for all churches, but when I was attending Ellendale Baptist Church prior to joining Bellevue, they published those numbers on a weekly basis in the bulletins.
4545 said...
swtt- Do you and others actually think that we are going to do all these things that you have listed (your lists)???
response - I don't know who "we" is that you are reference, but I pray God's list is the list that is listened to by all of us. I don't claim to be God and my list was just that, a wish list from me.
I appologize if you thought I was saying my list was God's.
I do know that there is strife in the church and that's not good. I pray healing is able to take place soon but there has to be transparency in the church. No secrets on finances.
WatchingHISstory said...
Bible-in-a-year
depends on which chapter you read. Ch 30 gives the actual account and ch 31 gives the explaination to his wife, Now when a man explains to his wife what he has done you can rest assured that he will emblish the truth! Funny how an angel of God enters the story. When a man has to tell you the Lord told me to tell you this you have to be careful. I think that ch 30 is closer to the truth.
4:15 PM, January 11, 2007
Yes, I have read the verses in chapter 30 several times. This is the part that isn't getting into my gray matter correctly:
"39 ... And they bore young that were streaked or speckled or spotted. 40 Jacob set apart the young of the flock by themselves, but made the rest face the streaked and dark-colored animals that belonged to Laban. Thus he made separate flocks for himself and did not put them with Laban's animals." (NIV)
I guess what's at stake here is the reputation of Jacob. But that's Jacob's problem, really.
I can read this two ways.
1) Jacob was cheating Laban.
2) Jacob was not cheating Laban.
I just don't understand the quoted text. I was advertising my difficulty to abandoning hopes of understanding. If you'd care to parse this quote I'd appreciate it. Else I'm going to leave this on the list of "Remind me to ask Jesus about that when we get home."
Mike,
I agree with you in that we have to keep our emotions in check. There are some things that I disagree with as it relates to some of the issues, but I do my best to keep my emotions in check when debating. I learned a long time ago people will listen to my arguements if I'm not talking disrespectfully towards the person I'm debating with. Not to mention, keeping emotions in check and respecting one another reguardless of difference in opinion will let us be taken more seriously than if we call each other names and trash talk.
Lynn Wages
mo-scratch- I cannot thank you enough for your kind words. Sorry for posting the reply so many times. Things get lost sometimes and I wanted that to be read. The danger with this blog and the "issues" at Bellevue is that they have taken over many people's lives. They are consumed by it. One cannot be consumed with this stuff as some are and still be focusing on all the things they need to be. Everyone wants to talk about their rights and THEIR lists and what they want done. Are we bond servants of Christ of not?? We were bought with great price and have no rights. You can go through and read mosts posts on this blog and they are full of attacks, self, and flesh. I see list after list and NONE of the lists are from God. They are 100% self and flesh. They are what some "think" should be done.
One key thing. Read over this blog, page by page. This verse come to mind...
Proverbs 3:5-6
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; 6 in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight.
"It seems everytime ACE/4545 is posting - there is strife. Perhaps she could do dome research on who is the father of strife?"
In his defense, how many times has it been said on here "where's Ace at tongiht?" he has not posted as part of that discussion??? I do not think ACE is responsible for anybody elses reactions. You are the only one that controls your actions, and to blame how someone reacts or responses on another person is not right.
You all love that ACE is on here. I appreciate that ACE is on here as well. If you get that bothered by another post, then do not reply or put someones name in post, because we all feel the need to reply when we see our name in a post.
To anyone,
Is Jacob the first polygamist in the lineage that leads to from Adam to Christ?
I notice that neither Abraham nor Isaac had multiple (simultaneous) wives.
Isaac did not even have a concubine. Perhaps that goes back to his experience growing up with a father who had a concubine?
Thanks,
Bible-in-a-year
what swtt says about publishing numbers is bulletins IS true...
I've mentioned this before on this blog, but it bears repeating - every Southern Baptist church I have belonged to have published these numbers weekly (the budget, the offering for the budget, special offerings, etc.). They even published the pastor's salary in the yearly budget report.
bible-in-a-year...
Genesis 16:3
"So, after Abrahm had lived ten years in the land of Canaan, Sarai, Abram's wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her servant, and gave her to Abram her husband as a wife."
Facts said...
Dr. Gray has ben contacted by Steve Gaines to speak at Sunday's Deacon's Meeting.
Steve Gaines was seen this week In Mike Spradlin's office.
----
4545 then said...
Facts- You need to check the "facts" in your last post.
7:10 PM, January 11, 2007
----
Are you saying that Facts is wrong? If so, what is the error?
Andrew
EZ
You have waded off into the deep end of the pool when you discuss Jacob's deception, one of the topics that I have spent many hours pondering. I consider it one of the most interesting topics in the Bible.
4545 - I agree with you 100%. Just be careful to remember that your point applies to SG also. He also has no rights and was bought with a price and is a bondservant. It is when he acts or acted as he had more rights than others that he found himself in trouble. If he would also adopt that attitude of him having no rights, than I think God will be able to work in his life and the life of BBC. I will continue to pray for you 4545 and will continue to read your posts with an open mind. I hope you will also read some of the posts with an open mind. Even if 99% are wrong, perhaps you can learn from the other 1%. Blessings.
My first question would be:
Did Jacob really commit a sin with the deception?
There is not a Deacons Meeting Sunday.
mo-scratch- I agree and thanks!!
4545,
You are correct. All deacons are supposed to be at a Friday evening/Saturday prayer retreat. This is taking place of Sunday's meeting. See you there.
Rod, 4545, Ace:
The $300 pair of shoes was "almost $300". They were bought at Johnston & Murphy (shoe store) in Wolfchase Galleria by Dr. Steve Gaines himself. The salesman's name was "Bob". He came out and shared this with several other people employed in Wolfchase. One of those employees is related to me. This happened late summer or early fall 2005 about the same time the Gaines arrived at BBC. The most aggravating part of this story is that Steve Gaines preached a sermon either the week before or the week after in which he told us that if we knew anyone who spent $500 on a pair of shoes to let him know so he could tell them how to better spend their money. (I know he spent closer to $300 than $500 but why would he even mention it in a sermon after spending more than the average bear on a pair of shoes?)
(I feel like Snopes.com). Rod, it is not a rumor.
Dee
P.S. Don't ask me any more about it because I will say no more. The only reason I am posting this now is because some people on here have attacked Rod for asking a question about something that IS true. Take my word for it or not. It can be proven or I would not say so.
ezekiel said...
I can find no mention of drink or drug in Jacob's first encounter with Leah. I have the following thoughts......
1)If you want to insist there was a chemical that aided the deception, you might want to look at testosterone.....Is lust a sin?
You are saying that the text doesn't infer alcohol, etc. (Go look at Lot and his two' daughters). But you ask if the text is implying the sin of lust.
Let's say that these are two equal posibilities. Then I would point out that the occasion of a feast and giving away a daughter would not be so surprising for alcohol to be flowing. Jesus made **something** from water at the wedding banquet (future study).
But the text has not given any indication that Jacob had any overly masculine issues (say for example Sampson maybe? --I know--future material). Actually, he seems more likely to run and hide (like from Esau for 20 years).
2)as Tim said, the tent was probably dark....
Yes. But even then they had candles and oil lamps and camp fires, etc. Besides, the very first day Jacob met Rachel the Bible says Rachel was "shapely" while Leah gets no such praise. Even in the dark, for a sober person to not be able tell the difference after seven years of being in love?
But admittedly, The Bible says that the first time Jacob saw Rachel he fell in love... so was that the deep God honoring love of the lust that you mentioned above...? You ask interesting questions.
3)Leah was surely part of the deception. Suppose she knew where Rachel kept her perfume?
Imho, technically, Leah would have been required to obey her father until **after** she was married. The consumation is the whole issue being examined. The sin fell to Laban. Leah was just being a dutiful daughter and obeying her people's traditions. She would have been a social outcast in her society if she had not been married off first. It would have been a big scandal. People saying "What's wrong with Leah?" etc. It also may have been considered presumptuous of Rachel to take "the man meant for Leah" in the mind of that community. Society places a great deal of bindings on the way people behave. It can be unbiblical pressure if it is not a 100% biblical society. (There's never been a 100% biblical society since the fall.)
4)Do you find it odd that Jacob was deceived, much like he deceived his father. Suppose his fathers brother (Laban)was just evening things up?
Again, Jacob's mother said that she was taking the sin. Although the idea of "replacement" of a sinner with a person offering to take the sacrifice seems unbiblical, I have to ask if that is what Jesus did for us with his self-sacrificial death on the cross. ***This could be a conversation by itself.*** (future material)
Is this the price Jacob payed for deceiving his father (sin)?
...karma...? You and I don't believe in Karma. We believe that all will be judged perfectly at the end. That's another good conversation probably not at this point, though. The whole "I get more crowns in Heaven than you do" doctrine. I've never dug into that doctrine to get a good understanding. I do know that we can lay up treasures for ourself in Heaven. But we are digressing fast for a discussion of Genesis.
Do we see the consequences of sin in this example? We hear from the pulpit that sin is put behind us, forgiven, covered by the blood....
Consequensces, and bitter ones at that....
***Consequences are a great lesson to take from yesterday's text.***
Questions were from the post by Ezekiel at 5:43 PM, January 11, 2007
The Jacob saga must be the greatest example of God's use of man's actions to glorify himself. Regardless of how tangled the web becomes, God's will is done.
I agree that we should all be in prayer! I'm glad several of you have emphasized that tonight! I just thought I'd share a scripture that I have studied and have been praying for myself, my family and friends, and now my church:
Colossians 1:9-23
9 For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,
10 so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;
11 strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously
12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.
13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--
23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
*****************************************
I encourage you to just take a minute and meditate on these verses--really SOAK in them :-) (I also enjoyed John MacArthur's commentary on these verses.)
There's so much going on right now, and sometimes I feel overwhelmed and dazed at everything that has happened over the past year or so. I always find strength and encouragement in these verses. (Especially verse 18--He WILL come to have first place in everything!!) I just thought you might find encouragement in them, too.
typo on #2
so was that the deep God honoring love of the lust that you mentioned above...?
replace the "of" with "OR" to get...
so was that the deep God honoring love ...OR... the lust that you mentioned above...?
The rumor was that he bought them on the church credit card.
I for one could care less what kind of shoes he buys and how much they cost. Many mens dress shoes cost a fortune now days.
I never heard anyone say a word about Dr. Rogers shopping at very very high end shops in town. Why is that?
Who cares about the shoes? Do people examine every portion of your life and every purchase that you make? No...so why are you doing that to Gaines?
It's his money, if he wants to buy shoes for himself or someone else, then so be it.
Well said ace!!
Did Jacob not prevent Esau from sinning when he received his father's belssing?
Ace & 4545--
Double standard. That's why.
I don't think most Bellevue members care what type of shoes Steve Gaines purchases or how much they cost. As long as he is paying for them out of his pocket, I don't care.
Ace, 4545
I will have to agree with you on this issue. Some times the $300 shoes are a better deal than the $100 shoes, especially if they last 4 times longer.
4545 said...
There is not a Deacons Meeting Sunday.
11:23 PM, January 11, 2007
----
4545,
That was the point of the "perhaps" in my post. I didn't know of a Sunday Deacon meeting.
Enjoy the teaching and fellowship.
Andrew
Very true astounded.
I would be more concerned if he spent $300 buying 5 pairs of shoes, all in different colors!
Double standard. That's why.
Without getting too deep, less than $300 is substantially lower than $500
For all we know, the shoes could have been $250....$500 is double that which would be ridiculous, I'll admit that.
But, whatever, this issue is not important. I heard SG ate at Wendy's the other day and got 2 cheeseburgers. I think he should have only gotten one because he would have saved $1. Now because of *that* action, SG must leave Bellevue!!! (note: sarcasm)
Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!
January 11, 2007
graceupongrace said...
bible-in-a-year...
Genesis 16:3
"So, after Abrahm had lived ten years in the land of Canaan, Sarai, Abram's wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her servant, and gave her to Abram her husband as a wife."
11:07 PM, January 11, 2007
You're right. I can't keep up with all these wives and concubines.
Do you think it was Hagar's fault that Abraham did not wait for Sarah to have a child?
2006Huldah said...
Rod, 4545, Ace:
The $300 pair of shoes was "almost $300". They were bought at Johnston & Murphy ......
11:29 PM, January 11, 2007
---
Let me add that I asked the communication committee about this early on when the story was making its rounds. The CC member I spoke with said that he personally asked SG about it and he quoted Steve Gaines as saying he hasn't bought shoes since he had been in Memphis.
Andrew
I think J's as in J Alexander is Steve's favorite lunch place. At least he is well known there.
I do think that the Bellevue chef and the wonderful meeting rooms make a lot more sense than spending money on outside restaurants like we do.
The annual cost of restaurant charges at Bellevue is incredible.
Bible-in-a-year said...
Do you think it was Hagar's fault that Abraham did not wait for Sarah to have a child?
I think the fault was Abraham's failure to have faith in the Word of God. In my mind it is another example of man trying to reach God by his works (Abraham-Well, God didn't come through with his promise so I will take it into my own hands)
Swtt,
I think J's as in J Alexander is Steve's favorite lunch place. At least he is well known there.
Everyone should boycott J Alexander's since they serve a pastor that harbored a known pedophile and wears $300 shoes!
The issue is not the shoes by themselves. The issue is not that the fence is 4 feet high. The issue is not that he splurged for an extra cheeseburger. The issue is that when you stand behind the pulpit, people expect 100% truth. When one compromises their integretity it is hard to get it back.
socwork said...
what swtt says about publishing numbers is bulletins IS true...
..."They even published the pastor's salary in the yearly budget report."
11:04 PM, January 11, 2007
These numbers were always posted in every church I attended; I grew up with it that way. But I don't remember Bellevue ever publishing these figures on a regular basis.
As to the pastor's salary - I remember Dr. Rogers telling us when we were still in midtown (the congregation) that we didn't pay his salary; that God did. I never did know what his salary was, but it never bothered me then. I am not really sure what my thoughts are on it now.
Why did you attack Rod Almondmartanti for his question at 7:07 PM about the shoes?
That is the only reason I responded since I know it to be true. I just wish I had seen it earlier.
Let it suffice to say that there is more to the story, so don't make light of it. Sometimes we need to watch what we say because the day may come that we might have to eat those words.
The "HA HA HA" might be reversed.
Good night to all of my brothers and sisters.
Dee
Astounded said...
Did Jacob not prevent Esau from sinning when he received his father's belssing?
11:39 PM, January 11, 2007
In my Bible it says that Esau despised his birthright and traded it for a bowl of soup.
And God had told Jacob's mother to favor Jacob.
As far as dressing Jacob up in Esau's clothes and some animal skins... That sounds like the kind of stupid plan that I would come up with. I really don't think it would change the fact that Isaac took pre-eminence over Esau if they had simply let Isaac bless Esau. Would that have really mad a big difference if God had already ordained something?
I think the story is just an illustration on how we try to do things in **our power** instead of letting God take control.
It is interesting. Jacob's mom's heart was in the right place, doing what ultimately she believed God wanted in order to have Jacob do better than Esau. But her manner of doing this was decietful and not of God imho.
(going offline soon, will read up tomorrow afternoon)
Noticed we were stuck on post 666, so this has no value other than to not have it stuck on 666.
Astounded said...
Bible-in-a-year said...
Do you think it was Hagar's fault that Abraham did not wait for Sarah to have a child?
I think the fault was Abraham's failure to have faith in the Word of God. In my mind it is another example of man trying to reach God by his works (Abraham-Well, God didn't come through with his promise so I will take it into my own hands)
11:51 PM, January 11, 2007
I ask about Hagar/Ishmel because even if Abraham could have done things differently, the fact is that ~300 million Arabs are descended through Hagar/Ishmael and another 700 million non-Arab muslims have a high regard for Hagar/Ishmael (and also for Isaac and Sarah).
As Southern Baptists, we believe **All life is special**.
I just believe that some times we come across the wrong way.
No matter what Abraham did right or wrong, it resulted in a new life born of a woman that he was married to with the consent of his first wife (Sarah). This is all straight from the Bible.
We need to always honor life. imho.
In addition to this, God blessed Ishmael and said that he would have many descendants. I believe he was also promised a part of the inheritance of Abraham for part of the land between the Euphrates to the Nile. It's been that way for 4,500 years.
And I say that while at the same time being a stauch supporter of Israel.
It is amazing to me that there are people in this world who say the Bible is boring or that it has become out-dated or is irrelevant to the world of the 21st century.
I'm just glad to know some people (SBC) still believe the Bible is true and are serious students of it's contents.
It's getting past my bed time...
Why would it matter if the number of posts were stuck on 666? :-)
ezekiel,
I agree. It didn't have to be but it's sad and worrisome.
Good night all,
Andrew
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