In this thread, rather than discussing PW or his family or what he might or might not have done, please concentrate on what the administration at Bellevue now seems to be doing (or not doing) about the situation.
Kevin Rardin, Assistant Shelby County D.A., is a regular reader of this forum and saw this post by "informedatbbc" last night, prompting him to call David Brown to dispute the assertion by two BBC staff members that there was no external investigation under way. Mr. Rardin confirmed that there is definitely an ongoing investigation being conducted by the Shelby County D.A.'s office, and Mr. Brown received this letter from the Tennessee Department of Children's Services dated December 24th stating that agency is also conducting an investigation. This is the postmarked envelope (personal information omitted) it came in.
I have reposted David Brown's comments from last night here, along with some from other posters in the first comment in this thread. Mr. Rardin informed David Brown that the administration at Bellevue is refusing to cooperate with his office or the Tennessee DCS in their investigation.
Everyone needs to call the church office at 901-347-2000 and politely ask these questions:
1. Why did Mark Dougharty and Jamie Fish state that there is no external investigation taking place?
2. Why did Mark Dougharty state to someone back in December that he'd been "interrogated" about the PW situation for two hours the previous day? (He didn't specify by whom.)
3. Why aren't all members of the church administration fully cooperating with the agencies which we know for a fact are conducting these investigations?
Finally, please call the D.A.'s office and DCS if you have any information relating to this case. If you have ever been counseled by Paul Williams and have any concerns whatsoever about the nature of the questions you were asked or anything else about your encounters with him, please do the following:
1. Call the church office and politely but firmly demand they release the file from your counseling session(s) to you or your designated representative.
2. Call the officials listed below, regardless of how minor or inconsequential your concerns may seem to the case at hand. They need to hear whatever information you can give them and will decide for themselves if it's relevant or not. Please do not call their offices simply to complain about Bellevue administrators not cooperating. That's not news to them!
Kevin Rardin is the Shelby County Assistant District Attorney and can be reached at 901-888-4300 or 901-545-5935.
Larry Griffin is with the regional office of the State of Tennessee Department of Child Protective Services (DCS) and can be reached at 901-258-0268.
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637 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 637 Newer› Newest»jr 5432,
Are you the old 4545?
and
ju,
Go back and read your post accusing me of putting out false info.
Who did you talk to at Hamilton/VanderSteeg and why do they make it look like he is employed by them on their website?
ju,
Did Bellevue hire Mike or not about a month ago?
Ok we're almost on the same page :). I do believe they are using his services for their investigation. Guess we had our wires crossed I thought you were talking about him still being employed by Mr VanderSteeg(sp).
ju,
Who did you talk to at Hamilton/Vandersteeg?
Why do they have Mike S on their websight still?
Can you let me know the answers to these questions?
Thanks
Junior,
I'm sorry. I think I mixed one of your messages with JU.
Please accept my apology.
Can you please call me?
Memphis said...
In my opinion the word investigate may have several meanings here. What are they investigating actually? That it happened? or could it be they are investigating who knew what and when, and why nothing was done 17 years ago.
Or who leaked it so they can re-direct their carreer path?
SWTT,
Please show me the link where Mike S is still on their website? Maybe you misunderstood my post with the 3 links. The first link is their CURRENT website the second one is a link that Binwondering was using and the Past Proof is an archive from 2004. Mike S hasn't been a part of that company since Oct 2004 best as I can tell.
ju,
Who did you talk to at Hamilton/VanderSteeg and here is the webpage linked to their site.
http://www.hr-mpact.com/tests.html
Since they are using Mike Stavropoulos, we need to see the results of ALL past studies and consulting engagements he has conducted for Bellevue Baptist Church. I think we would be fascinated to see the results.
I would also like to know how much he and/or his company have been paid.
Ju, I don't think you are trying to be argumenative. However, there is clearly a link between these men and their businesses. Don't you think an "investigation" should be conducted by independent parties?
Swtt,
Just a question, but why should the BBC Internal Investigator step down?
This thread has gotten alittle confusing.
Swtt,
It's been put forth that Mike S is an employee of Wayne V. He was an officer in Wayne's company back in Oct 2004 evidenced by their website. He is NOT a direct employee of Wayne's company any longer. Regardless of all this back and forth everyone's claim of a close relationship is still on target so we don't have any disagreement there. It is however incorrect to put forth that he works for Wayne V as an employee. He may do consulting HR work for that company through his own company. I haven't talked to anyone there to answer your question.
Clearly there is a relationship between these men. Regardless of whether the employment relationship is current or from three years ago, there is a relationship, and that seems to be the point.
In a city the size of Memphis, it seems to me there are plenty of people who could do an *unbiased* internal investigation.
swtt, ju, and others
1. Wayne V. does not have a company... he works for David H.
2. Mike S. hasn't worked for David in 2+ years, and doesn't do ANY work THROUGH David's company.
In an honest reply (no funnies, no sarcasm, nothing), what does everyone expect to come out of the internal investigation?
Memphis,
I honestly do not believe it is an investigation. There is nothing to investigate. The pastor and Jamie Fish were there in June. They know exactly what happened and what the sequence of events before and since have been.
I believe what they are doing is an investigation into the best way to spin the story so they can keep PW on staff. JMHO
The real question for me is why they would do that. They know PW is disqualified from ministry. Why keep him on staff? If we believe in Scripture and its standards, the answer to PW's fitness for ministry is perfectly clear.
There is something of a power struggle going on as well. More will come out on that later.
Why Bellevue why?
Proverbs, I am sorry but what does JMHO stand for?
Just my humble opinion???
Memphis said...
In an honest reply (no funnies, no sarcasm, nothing), what does everyone expect to come out of the internal investigation?
Honestly?...not too much.
Memphis,
Sorry...yes you got it. I had to ask too :-)
I know this is off topic, but I thought some might like to know...Al Mohler was released from the hospital today to recuperate at home.
Now back to the regularly scheduled program.
With all of the people in the world we could use to for an internal investigation (inquiry) of Steve Gaines and Paul Williams, why would we choose someone with close ties to the Hamilton/VanderSteeg connection?
It just doesn't make sense. Their websight clearly shows close ties in a business relationship. Hamilton and VanderSteeg are in the middle of group supporting the pastor's actions.
Question? Was Mike S involved in the employee survey done several years ago that was very extensive?
In order to be fair and impartial to the congregation, the Bellevue leadership should have hired someone to investigate that had no business dealings past or present with any leader of Bellevue.
Some insiders will say it's sour grapes for some to suggest it won't be fair but why set yourself and the church up for this in the first place.
It's totally uncalled for. It didn't have to happen and it's just another pattern of insiders making decisions to protect themsleves and to hide behind others to legitimize their actions.
allofgrace said...
Memphis said...
In an honest reply (no funnies, no sarcasm, nothing), what does everyone expect to come out of the internal investigation?
Honestly?...not too much.
3:52 PM, January 10, 2007
AOG,
I expect spin spin spin all wrapped up in another dog and pony show on a Sunday Morning where it will be all laid out so no one can ask questions.
You can correct me if this does not happen:)
This is what the Bible says on philosophy...one can take it and do at his/her will, but this is what it says.
Col 2:8-10 "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority."
The following is the commentary from the Life Application Study Bible:
Paul writes against any philosophy of life based only on human ideas and experiences. Paul himself was a gifted philosopher so he is not condemning philosophy. He is condemning teaching that credits humanity, not Christ, with being the answer to life's problems. That approach becomes a false religion. There are many man-made approaches to life's problems that totally disregard God. To resist heresy you must use your mind, keep you eyes on Christ and study God's Word. Again Paul asserts Christ's deity. "In Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form" means that all of God was in Christ's human body. When we have Christ we have everything we need for salvation and right living. When we know Jesus Christ, we don't need to seek God by means of other religions, cults, or unbiblical philosophies as the Colossians were doing. Christ alone holds the answers to the true knowledge and power for the Christian life. No Christian needs anything in addition to what Christ has provided to be saved. We are complete in him.
This has been a thorn of contention and I just thought I'd find this and share. Not debating, just sharing.
Here's a testimonial from the Mpact (NB not IMPACT) HR web site which has a business relationship with Impact Logistics...
Testimonials
“Mr. Stavropoulos has served as HR consultant to our church for the past two years and we could not be more pleased with the results he has achieved for us”
Beyond that, we could not be more pleased with the maturity, professionalism, and integrity he has exhibited as he has worked with us. I have had the opportunity to work with many outstanding consultants during my thirteen years at Bellevue Baptist Church, but none have exceeded the performance of Mike Stavropoulos.”
Craig Parker, Bellevue Baptist Church
No date is given but if you knew when Craig Parker started at BBC you could do the math.
Draw from this what conclusions (or confusions) you will...
BTW, what are we trying to conclude?
TS
memphis,
That was not meant to be sarcastic, jmho.
The internal and external investigations need to ask the following:
Were the ministers/staff of BBC asked by SG to volunteer to help in the nursery during 2006?
Did SG state from the pulpit in 2006 his request of asking the staff of BBC to volunteer in the preschool area?
How often were volunteers requested from the ministerial staff to help with preschool/nursery?
Was PW seen this past summer and/or during the month of September in 2006 pulling a wagon of children in the preschool area at BBC?
Did PW himself remember volunteering
in the preschool area pulling a wagon of children at BBC?
These are important questions that need to be asked!
Mr. Sundquist, please stop by my place. There's something there just for you.
--Mike
truthsleuth,
I believe that we are trying to find out if the person doing the investigation is biased or not. I vote, "Yes".
The second thing that no one has asked about is who is the chairman of the investigation committee and does he have only one question.
"Who told you that?"
hoping to get all the way back to leak.
Tim,
Mike couldn't possibly be any more biased than you have proven to be.
Zechariah 8:17
"Do not plot evil against your neighbor, and do not love to swear falsely. I hate all this," declares the LORD.
Please...this is beginning to sound like a witch hunt.
Beginning?
Mike Bratton said...
"Mr. Sundquist, please stop by my place. There's something there just for you."
Mr. Bratton...I don't even know what to say. This sounds terrible. Surely you don't mean this. Sounds like you are sporting brass knuckles. ???
No need to respond to me...I won't engage in distasteful dialogue. I just am pleading to you to change your tone.
Tim, mom4, and others:
Any credibility you might have had has been lost due to your attitudes and demeanors. It's probably better that most of you have posted anonymously... I wouldn't want to stand by your comments either.
Please do remember that we are not each others enemies... like it or not, we are family. We'll still be "related" once this is all over with.
So, nobody has a comment about Craig Parker's glowing endorsement of Mike Stavropoulos? Maybe the guy's OK. I'm as suspicious as anyone else about the motives and actions of the leadership, but I think it's only prudent to wait and see what happens before we start lobbing grenades.
As an old Georgia country doctor once told me, "Don't let the fire in your britches burn out your brain."
TS
foolsparade,
I fail to see why you would believe that I have lost any credibility.
One I think that the internal investigation has been biased.
Two I believe that the investigation committee is biased as well.
I believe that is what started this whole mess to begin with is not allowing anyone to express their concerns.
By the way I respect your right to have an opinion of me.
Memphis said...
In an honest reply (no funnies, no sarcasm, nothing), what does everyone expect to come out of the internal investigation?
3:41 PM, January 10, 2007
Well, if they are honest? No I do not think they will do Justice. But I still am wating for a phone call from BBC since someone said anyone who got counsel from Paul Williams their file will be examined. I am ready to do some preaching to all of the laymen and security at BBC and to others outside of that church. They have my name and number, and address. I am trying to control myself, I am ready to Preach. I am for Love, Joy, Peace, Forgiveness, Mercy to show all that to BBC. I do pray for Paul Williams and others.
But
Psalm 11:7 For the LORD is righteous, he loves justice; upright men will see his face.
Proverbs 21:15
When justice is done, it brings joy to the righteous but terror to evildoers.
I do not expect any of you to care or believe me, nor do I care. I am just releasing a little. Years ago if I told you about Paul Williams and other you would never believe me.
foolsparade said...
"Beginning?"
Mr. Parade,
You misunderstand. Actually I am referring to this:
Mike Bratton said...
"Mr. Sundquist, please stop by my place. There's something there just for you."
This sounds like nothing less that the school ground bully wanting to flex his muscles. I pray this attitude will cease on this blog. This attitude is not indicative oa a Christian...I just think people like Mr. Bratton need to step back and take a look at these kind of remarks they are making. Not just him, but anybody that is using this kind of dialogue. It is truly inconsistent with Christianity behavior. This includes me...if I have posted or said anything like this, I need to be chastised too. It just bothers me and it really needs to stop. There are people who are not saved reading this blog...we need to remember that. It is possible as Christians to have disagreements, but to say, "Come to my place...yadayadayada" is a bit much. Even in disagreement, we need to let our light shine. Don't you think?
Now...go ahead. I am ready...
imaresistor,
You have misunderstood what Mike Bratton was talking about. He has a blog site as well called the Bratton Report. I would expect that he was inviting him over to his "place" (The Bratton Report) not to a physical place. It took me a few minutes to realize that you had seriously misunderstood what he was taling about.
TS,
"I think it's only prudent to wait and see what happens before we start lobbing grenades."
I totally agree with you on this, and hope that the rest of you will take this into consideration as well. I'm telling you, Mike is a good man for this assignment.
Tim,
"I believe that is what started this whole mess to begin with is not allowing anyone to express their concerns."
Expressing concerns and ranting over minutia are two totally different things. I can express concerns by lovingly approaching someone with an "help me understand" attitude, or I can turn my mouth (or in this case, fingers) into a full blown assault rifle and fire away without reserve.
All I'm saying is I think people get a whole lot further when they approach others with consideration, love, respect, and grace.
Tim said...
"You have misunderstood what Mike Bratton was talking about. He has a blog site as well called the Bratton Report. I would expect that he was inviting him over to his "place" (The Bratton Report) not to a physical place. It took me a few minutes to realize that you had seriously misunderstood what he was taling about."
Thank you Tim. I have learned to respect you and what you have to say. I hope I have not offended you or anyone else...nor Mr. Bratton. Actually, I did not misunderstand. I went to Mr. Bratton's website and read the intended message.
I appreciate your concern in thinking I had misunderstood and helping to steer me in the right direction. I guess as long as we are in the world, things are going to be worldly aren't they. I just think we should see more mature behavior and especially Christian behavior.
Please forgive me if I have offended anybody...that is never my intention.
Hey guys. I was reading the posts today on my breaks at work and I am a bit confused. Where did psychology come into play in the issues we are dealing with? Also, I noticed some are anti-psychologist and some posts are supportive of psychology. This sort of puts me in an awkward position because I currently see both a psychologist and a psychiatrist for social anxiety and depression issues.
And Mike, I'll be one to open up. My name is Lynn Wages and I live out in Fayette County near Mason (3 miles away from Bozo's BBQ and Gus's Chicken :) )
Koragg, hear the word of the L-RD.
Isaiah 35:4
Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your G-d will come with vengeance, even G-d with a recompence; he will come and save you.
This is an article I found interesting. It is about how Johnson & Johnson handled a public relations crisis with the poisoned Tylenol scare in the 80’s and how the church could take lessons from that situation. The steps taken by J & J were not were not in line with legal advice, but they did it anyway b/c it was the right thing to do for the public. I realize this was a secular situation, but the article makes some great points on how handling a crisis in an open, honest fashion can lead to a complete turn around of the negative situation. The article is from a Seventh Day Adventist magazine and I do not agree with their theology/doctrine. I just think the article is very fitting for this topic.
friend,
Your link doesn't work.
foolsparade wrote "Expressing concerns and ranting over minutia are two totally different things. I can express concerns by lovingly approaching someone with an "help me understand" attitude, or I can turn my mouth (or in this case, fingers) into a full blown assault rifle and fire away without reserve."
Stop ranting! :o)
Sorry about the link again. I hit publish by mistake, but you should be able to paste the address at the end or try this:
This
Friend, I am glad you mentioned J&J and how they handled the tylenol poisonings. This has been a classic case study for PR firms ever since.
Basically, they went AGAINST their lawyers advice and it saved their company. They decided on total open communication. What they knew or found out would be communicated.
Unfortuantly, all these years later people have learned how to cleverly 'spin' facts in real time. The lesson was lost. Ask Enron.
Another interesting case study came from Morton-Thiokel and the challenger disaster. An investigation of what happened started a whole new study of the phenomena of 'Group Think'.
There was ONE guy on the challenger team who did not think the O ring would withhold. ONE guy in a large group. He was shunned, ostrasized and bullied for months until he relented and agreed with the group that it would hold. People died because he caved in to the 'group think'.
Lessons here to be learned.
MOM4 said...
truthsleuth said...
So, nobody has a comment about Craig Parker's glowing endorsement of Mike Stavropoulos? Maybe the guy's OK. I'm as suspicious as anyone else about the motives and actions of the leadership, but I think it's only prudent to wait and see what happens before we start lobbing grenades.
As an old Georgia country doctor once told me, "Don't let the fire in your britches burn out your brain."
TS
TS,
Just because Craig Parker was impressed with one person's performance at a certain point in time, does not mean that that same person is appropriate for this particular task. People change, things change, circumstances change, money talks and powers influence.
We will see what the outcome of the internal investigation reveals and I can just about promise you that it will be tainted if for no other reason than it is NOT done as an independent investigation with freedom to see things in an unbiased manner. People form opinions and are swayed by testimony, especially if they have pre-existing relationships. Why do you think our legal system has jury pools? So they can disqualify those who may have a relationship with a party to the litigation. Think this thing thru please before we spend an arm and two legs on an investigation that will not be worth the paper it is painted on, but I would say that it is already too late for that.
I just found a problem in Leviticus with Jacob having two sisters as wives.
NIV makes it look like that is always wrong.
KJV looks like it must be "to vex" the first wife. The vexing is the real sin?
Anybody know what the Hebrew says?
I'll come back later or tomorrow to see if anybody answers.
(offline)
Leviticus 18:18 (King James Version)
18Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time.
Leviticus 18:18 (New International Version)
18 " 'Do not take your wife's sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.
P.S. Looking again at the NIV it says "rival" so again it may mean if it is just "to vex."
Note: Of course, Leviticus is for future study. Don't want to try to bring that all in at this point.
(offline)
koragg said: I live out in Fayette County near Mason (3 miles away from Bozo's BBQ and Gus's Chicken :) )
OH MAN!!! Koragg, could you bring me some Bozo's BBQ next time you head this way? The stuff put's Corky's to shame! My favorite BBQ in all the world....I make the 50-minute round trip every now and then just 'cause there's none I like better. Got some back in November after a morning deer hunt on my way back to Bartlett from the Stanton area.
Now, what was it we were talking about?? (Sorry to hijack the topic for a moment.)
Memphis said...
In an honest reply (no funnies, no sarcasm, nothing), what does everyone expect to come out of the internal investigation?
Reply:
Ok, I know you said no funnies, but I can't resist this opportunity. To all out there I am not trying to make light of the situation. I hope that I can give you something to smile about for a moment though.
We got the wrong guy!
friend, that was a great link about the McNeil situation (div of J&J). I happened to represent that company during those times. By the way they ended up having two recalls. But the handling of the situation is now a case study in business schools on dealing with things of a negative impact to a brand. Have you noticed that after the food concerns at Taco Bell the president of that company did a similar thing?
The most interesting thing about the two is that neither company had done anything liable and were found to be blameless in those situations. Kind of makes you wonder why our leadership (and Enron) didn't take the same course of action. I guess it's easy to be honest when you have done everything the right way.
Full information prevents the kind of rumors and gossip that spreads on blogs of this kind. I am not blaming the blog but the situation created the blog and the rumors and gossip were certain to follow.
There is an old rule in business...the absence of truth creates a void filled by wrong information.
Tim...
:)
I'll take "You and Me Against the World"...
BTW...I know that name sounded familiar for some other reason!
jmo,
Once again, despite our differences, we have found common ground. Transparency and Integrity are far easier when you have clean hands.
Honest complete answers dispel a world of false information, but hal-truths lead to a world of speculation.
imaresistor,
I was actually trying to google some information and ran across that. I bet that someone else could help me out easier though.
I was trying to remember if Paul Williams had left Bellevue and went to another church and then returned. I was wondering if he did where it was that he went and what position he held there.
Tim,
You've got mail...
Tim...
That would be interesting information to have. Perhaps a hx of abuse earlier in his life? Would that be on record any where? Where is he from originally?
tim:
Paul Williams has been on the Bellevue staff for 34 years. He came here from Merritt Island, FL. He had been on Dr. Rogers' staff when he was the pastor at Merritt Island.
ema,
Did he have any medical training?
ema,
Did Dr. Pollard bring Paul to Bellevue?
I thought that Dr. Rogers had been on staff for 32 years when he retired.
mom4 & tim:
I think the 34 years may be a rounded off figure, because Paul came shortly after Dr. Rogers.
And yes, to my recollection, Paul was a trained EMT and I think he may have done some volunteer work with the Germantown FD. This is strictly from recollection of conversations, so don't hold me to that being exact.
What makes all this so very sad is that this man is brilliant! He was a valued, respected member of the staff and Dr. Rogers always seemed to have so much respect for his abilities and for him as a Christian. It just proves that only God knows what is truly in the hearts of men/women.
Tim and AOG,
You have mail!
Diana
I think that no matter what the report says, there will be a number of people unhappy with it regardless.
I would also urge people to actually wait and see what he report says before we start questioning it.
Memphis,
We have no choice but to wait at this point. I don't believe that anyone that has really done any investigation is going to be satisfied with it. But we will see what comes of it, first.
Another thing is that it appears from the investigation that was done in Jacksonville, you can get the report to say whatever you want it to say. Whenever, the investigator is being paid by the organization being investigated you have a conflict, whether or not there are any prior associations or not.
I wonder what the investigation cost and if the church would be willing to contribute enough to an independant non-profit organization of integrity to hire an investigative team.
I specifically remember hearing PW tell of experiences as an EMT, most especially as a volunteer. One particular incident that PW described comes to mind. It was particularly graphic, and PW described life and death choices and CPR...
Tim, I believe that people will be disappointed with the internal investigation because I do not believe they are attempting to prove anything about PW. I believe the report will be more about policies, hiring and what not.
As I have said before, any investigations has to have an objective, and I am not sure what the objective is of the internal investiagtion.
Lady Di,
I just sent you a response.
memphis,
Excellant point!
It does look like they could at least have made a statement concerning what the objective of the investigation was to be.
I am back to my reclassifying it as the "infernal internal investigation". It has a nice ring to it and it is really hard to say quickly three times in a row.
memphis, tim,
Well that would make sense, since he confessed...what would there be to investigate internally?...I'm curious to know exactly what they are investigating or inquiring into.
(off topic again...but...)
I personally do not believe that supporting the Passion of the Christ movie would be a "mark" in Dobson's favor. I would be scared to endorse something like this. Character counts. Gibson and crew made millions off of the evangelical marketing and support. Look at their lives. They don't seem to walk what they talked.
Hummm... there were warnings in the NT about the hasty laying on of hands, don't share in someone else's sin. Seems like nearly the same thing to me.
All,
I was really disappointed that no one had a tea-spitting moment over the album cover. I realize of course how serious this all is, but occasionally I have needed a break from constantly being pressed past the verge of tears.
The puzzling question is David Coombs stating that they kept PW on payroll so he would cooperate...cooperate with what?..if they're not investigating PW..then why do they need his cooperation?
LOL, Tim!
I had a private tea spitting moment, minus the tea (as I don't have anything to drink right now. Water sounds good)
I think people are to hung up on the word "investigation"
Unless they are trying to figure out what exactly happened 17 years ago when he allegedly confessed then....
memphis,
investigation...or inquiry...whatever word you want to use ok?....the point is..why do they need his cooperation?
Tim,
I was really disappointed that no one had a tea-spitting moment over the album cover
If it makes you feel better, I spit Dr. Pepper all over my computer screen. Tea is for sissies.
well I think they would need it alot, especially if they are trying to figure out how it went down 17 years ago, since he is one of the few left from that time.
My opinion.... OPINION (just for emphasis, repeating myself) is that Gaines believed that it could be kept quiet, and made a decision to have business as usual. For what reason did he want the status quo? That I don't know. Now he's stuck with the decision he made in June. It's public now. So now what? If he fires PW he looks worse than if he just keeps on going, because that means that he knew he should have done that way back in June. Now he just pretends it's ok rather than admit he was wrong.
Any reasoning that can justify unrighteousness is sick. Sin-sick.
I have to come out and type my thoughts after such a long time reading. I got My grandaughter to help because of the setup. I could have figured it out. Steve gaines has too go! My niece that you know told me several days ago abouy what he did to the orcastra director, Carter. I have made my thoughts known to the church. I even talked to Steve Gains secretaty. She was so short and said it didm't go that way. \
I just that god will bless you all because I like Carter and she said that steve Gaines mwde him look like a fool . We heave a shorter drive that our church moved and we are telling our class because of Carter. Steve gaines did not like our pastor
Mr. and Mrs. Jenkins
CJesus,
you must not be from the south if you believe that! Where you from boy? LOL
Most of my life has been spent in Memphis... and, yes, I agree...most everyone I know loves their tea.
What he did to Carter? Is this new? What did I miss?
charis,
The content of the film far outweighs the character of those that produced it. The character of those that produced the Bible itself do not outweight the Scriputre that God breathed thru them.
The film provided a visual impact of the whole gory truth of the sufferings of Christ for our sin. It should serve to humble us, as well as make us aware of the price that was paid to cover the sins of the world.
Thinking back on seeing that film myself, it really makes me wonder if in ignoring sin, we have not cheapened His sacrafice.
JustMe,
That comment is a lie. Steve Gaines didn't tell Carter to bow down at the altar. He was telling Carter to pray with someone else who was at the altar.
This rumor started on this blog and the person who started it has apologized. Wow, though....this just shows us the effect of just one wrong statement on others...
(Advertisement for a future topic, hopefully)
Please pay careful attention to Genesis 1-11.
It really will help you in your encounters with non-Christians.
There really are not that many major religions when you think about it.
1 billion Hindus
1 billion Muslims
1.5 billion Christian background
1.5 billion Atheists (Communist background, western secular humanist background)
1.5 billion Buddhists, misc, etc.
If you have a firm grasp on John 3:16 and Genesis 1-11 you can find comman ground with any of these groups to present the Gospel.
In fact I'll tell you that I know a lot of Hindus who agree with Genesis 1-11. They have a much stronger respect for monotheism than I ever thought before I actually tried talking to some. Several actually say that in the beginning there was only one God (look for common ground like this). Some will even say that there is still just one God despite all those statues of women with six arms, etc. (I'm simplifying some theological issues as I write this).
Of course Atheists' whole world view relies upon evolution and Big Bang Theory. If you get them to see those those theories are fairy tales... do this gently please... and if you did that gently, then they are still on speaking terms with you and will probably go to church with you sometime.
Speaking of that, I am so greatful for SCT and Passion Play. I have brought a whole department of Hindu computer programmers to those on occasion. Also a few Buddhists. They loved it. In fact just a week ago I bumped in to that Buddhist again and was told that they wanted to go to SCT this year (it was already over of course). Think about offering tickets for Memphis Passion play to any foreigners in your daily life. The newer to America they are, the more interested they are in seeing. Plus it is a great chance afterwards to ask what they thought.
In this day and age, doesn't everyone reading these words know a Muslim co-worker or a Hindu family in your neighborhood, maybe even a Buddhist? And all of us know a few atheists.
You really don't need to know a whole lot to witness to folks in these other religions. I can give you some real useful information for Hindus, Atheists, and Muslims. I really hope you'll let me get some of this of my chest.
Not tonight or this week. Probably not even next month. But I hope eventually you'll let me speak some on this topic.
Until then, if you happen to be witnessing to someone from these religions, let me know. I might can give you some quick advice. I'm certainly open to learning what you find out.
In the mean time, please take this opportunity to build up your knowledge of Genesis 1-11 and share any thing you know about those chapters to help us all trust God's Word.
God bless & good night,
Bible-in-a-year.
CHaris,
What he did to Carter? Is this new? What did I miss?
You didn't miss anything. Read my above post. There was a misunderstanding but the truth has been revealed and it was a move by Dr. Gaines that was applauded by "both sides" (for a lack of better words...)
I thought it was touching seeing Gianes asking someone to go pray with the gentleman.
Well, lets see....
We don't know for sure what the investigation is about. Perhaps we should not go ahead and assume the worst.
Wouldn't any Bellevue member have a "conflict of interest"? Because for the record, I wouldn't want most of the people on here running it. Because I think you already have you mind made up and that would limit your effectiveness.
My Grandmother would take too long to chat. She CAN read and refresh easily (very easily) she is reading me now! She called me with this info and wanted to let you know she has now changed her mind over what she heard about one of "her favorites" that Steve Gaines "Did wrong" I don't go to your church and don't care. BYE!
Memphis,
Same here. I know if I was that person, I would be glad that a minister came to pray with me.
Memphis said...
Tim, I believe that people will be disappointed with the internal investigation because I do not believe they are attempting to prove anything about PW. I believe the report will be more about policies, hiring and what not.
Memphis said...
I think people are to hung up on the word "investigation"
Unless they are trying to figure out what exactly happened 17 years ago when he allegedly confessed then....
Memphis said...
well I think they would need it alot, especially if they are trying to figure out how it went down 17 years ago, since he is one of the few left from that time.
Memphis,
I'm having a hard time, from these posts, figuring out exactly what you're thinking is on this..you started off in one direction then shifted gears
ace,
I have to rise to your defense on this issue. Although I am no Bostonian, I far prefer coffee and go thru about 3 pots a day.
Ok, so now you guys know how I manage to post 24/7. If I were to have a heart attack and die right now I could run on the caffeine for about 2 months.
Tim,
I have to rise to your defense on this issue. Although I am no Bostonian, I far prefer coffee and go thru about 3 pots a day.
Thank you, although coffee is nasty too. :)
If I were to have a heart attack and die right now I could run on the caffeine for about 2 months.
That's just....sick...
I am saying this:
I think people hear the word investigation and they automatically begin thinking about charges and convictions (legal)
I think the internal investigation will not be so much about what PW did, but more about the policies, how it was handled back then and how it was handled recently.
when I typed "well I think they would need it alot, especially if they are trying to figure out how it went down 17 years ago, since he is one of the few left from that time."
It was a direct reply to a question as to why they would want PW cooperation.
Tim,
In that movie, the half was not told. And the greatest pain was the separation from His Father, although the crucifixion itself was horrific beyond description. Beyond recognition, not even a worm, Isa 53 (not counting the rejection, taunting, flogging, mockery, beatings,...)
Although it could be used for good, and I'm sure it has been, I respectfully disagree with your assertion that the "essence" of that film was good.
The Word and a changed life. That's the gospel that the world is waiting to see.
About the movie? I agree to disagree :)
Diet Coke and sleep deprivation. Oh, and Tropical Punch Kool Aid. That is how I can post all the time.
memphis,
we all know the internal investigation is not legal...that's the domain of the DA and DCS...it's the purpose of the internal inqurigation that we were talking about...now which do you think it's purpose is?....policies and procedures...or finding out about PW's activities 17 yrs ago?
I think that it is about policies and procedures which are tied to how it was handled 17 years ago, I think they are both linked together.
tim,
The Bible itself does not go into the gory details of the floggings etc, and the crucifixion in the gospels...think there's a reason for that?...is the movie truly being faithful to the written revelation as God wrote it?...if He didn't include the gory details...is including it taking away from the main point?...is portraying Christ by an actor right?...remember this is the very Lord of Glory we're talking about. If, when you think of Christ, do the images of that movie come to mind?...the actor portraying Him?...if so that could be bordering on creating an image of God. jmho.
I really believe the investigation is to find the leak.
That's what they are asking about -where people heard about it.
Ace,
Thank you. I read about that. But so many things have come out in this blog that I wasn't sure if there was something new or not.
AOG
"the internal inqurigation"
cool word.
If they were interested in doing the right thing, they would have already done it.
charis,
Agreed!
We also agree that the half was not told! There was so much more, but I would hope that it would have the impact of driving people to the Scripture. That is where the real story is and the real Word.
The film could have done a much better job addressing the Spiritual issues, but they chose to concentrate on the physical suffering. To realize that the Spiritual suffering was infintely more painful than what was seen in the physical suffering is humbling.
We agree on that as well!
I believe also that we agree that it was appropriate to present Christ and Him Crucified.
Do people picture Carey Vaughn when they think of Jesus?
I don't, personally, although, since I don't know Carey personally I do think of Jesus when I see him.
charis,
"inquirigation"...middle ground to eliminate semantics and get to the core issue.
allofgrace,
The gospel accounts did not go into as much detail as the account in Isiah. There are passages that refer to the fact that his face was barely recognizable as human. Also, the people under the Roman rule would have been well aware of how brutal floggings were.
The Bellevue Passion Play, the Ozark Passion Play and multitudes of others do the same thing. It would be impossible for anything to be a replacement for Scripture.
The films, the plays, all of it will be gone one day, but the Word will remain forever.
Carey and what Jesus looked like are forever linked in my mind. I just can't help it. I know Carey and I still can't always manage to separate it.
LOL, Piglet!
When a friend heard that Carey was leaving the BBC staff (before finding out that he planned to stick around) the word of the day was that "Jesus is leaving Bellevue"
tim,
I agree...the main thing I'm thinking of is that great care must be taken not to add to or take away from written revelation...the Bible warns about that..plus...hollywood tends to use violence and gore for shock value...the main point of the gospels is what Christ accomplished on the cross.
Internal inquirigation.
Inquiring minds want to know. What are you investigating? Which department is the Internal Affairs department?
charis,
You got me...a newly formed entity?
Kind of like the Personnel Committee? Where and who are they? And Focus groups? I remember hearing Gaines saying he didn't like committees.
well i'm off to bed folks...sleep well saints.
Me too. Night :)
allofgrace,
You are correct in asserting that it has it's dangers for sure.
I saw it as similar to a Bible Commentary, not Scripture in and of itself, but sometimes helpful to offer logical arguments.
By the way, I know you listen to a lot of sermons and am not sure if you are much of a reader or not, but I listened to a book on tape, "Footsteps of Jesus". It had some of the most interesting insights into Jewish traditions and customs that would have been widely known during Jesus time and how they related to many of the parables and stories.
re: Passion movie
I think people have a really hard time relating what the was actually like back then. I think the idea is that it will get people to think about what Jesus really went through and why more than anything else. It isn't meant to convey everything.
But some people might go to a movie and not just pick up the Bible and start reading. It is meant to open doors for people to desire more.
Night All!
bepatient,
I agree it might have that effect...but the movie was touted by evangelicals as a evangelistic tool...the Bible states clearly that God has chosen "through the foolishness of preaching to save them which believe."...I don't think that is a God-approved method of evangelism...as always jmho...ok I'm really gone this time...g'nite all.
Speaking of Passion of Christ, I read about this when it first occurred and thought it was a wonderful example of repentance and obedience. This man confessed to a horrible crime, knowing he could face a death sentence b/c he knew he had broken both God’s law and man’s law and must fully reconcile with both. In my opinion, if someone committed a criminal act against a child or anyone for that matter, then confessed and repented, they would most likely feel a strong need such as this young man to turn themselves in to the legal authorities and accept the consequences whatever they might be.
I digress a little here, but I have seen many comment/questions regarding whether a pedophile/sex offender can be reformed. In my opinion, the answer is yes, with God, anything is possible. I don’t believe, however, God would deliver someone from this sin, but have them remain silent in regards to confessing to the authorities. If a person tells me they committed a heinous crime several years ago, but they have repented and God and the offended parties have forgiven them, I would want to know if they ever reported the crime to the authorities and if the Holy Spirit has ever prompted them to report it. Also, even though I know God can deliver someone from any sin, including pedophilia/incest, I don't think we should attempt to discern that or take the sex offender's word for it. We should always err on the side of protecting children and that person should never, ever be allowed access to children. The only way to ensure that in a church setting is to make sure the adult offender is always accompanied by another reliable adult while in the church. You do not have to be working in the children’s ministry to have access to children in the church.
The following is quoted from "Thru the Bible" (J. Vernon McGee; Vol. I, pg.xx):
WHEN YOU READ THE BIBLE THROUGH
I supposed I knew my Bible,
Reading piecemeal, hit or miss,
Now a bit of John or Matthew,
Now a snatch of Genesis,
Certain chapters of Isaiah,
Certain Psalms (the twenty-third),
Twelfth of Romans, First of Proverbs--
Yes, I thought I knew the Word!
But I found that thorough reading
Was a different thing to do,
And the way was unfamiliar
When I read the Bible through.
You who like to play at Bible,
Dip and dabble here and there,
Just before you kneel aweary,
And yawn through a hurried prayer;
You who treat the Crown of Writings
As you treat no other book--
Just a paragraph disjointed,
Just a crude impatient look--
Try a worthier procedure,
Try a broad and steady view;
You will kneel in very rapture
When you read the Bible through!
--Amos R. Wells
Ummm...."the Crown of Writings".
Love to all who read this,
Dee
Charis, Ace....Good Grief...that whole Carter thing didn't even start as a statement....it started as a QUESTION for verification. Several people from different vantage points added what they saw and the entire story became clear. Reading completely through the blog, instead of listening to "I heard" would have shown that. AND...the person that even asked for the original clarification has apologized profusely for the confusion. Please read completely before making snap judgements. No one wants to "start" anything; everyone is just trying to get credible information from others who were there. :)
And Ace, I know you have made that position clear several times, and I appreciate that. :)
It has been requested that this be reposted for the specific attention to the investigation being done by the DCS and DA:
achristianbeliever said...
The internal and external investigations need to ask the following:
Were the ministers/staff of BBC asked by SG to volunteer to help in the nursery during 2006?
Did SG state from the pulpit in 2006 his request of asking the staff of BBC to volunteer in the preschool area?
How often were volunteers requested from the ministerial staff to help with preschool/nursery?
Was PW seen this past summer and/or during the month of September in 2006 pulling a wagon of children in the preschool area at BBC?
Did PW himself remember volunteering
in the preschool area pulling a wagon of children at BBC?
These are important questions that need to be asked!
4:32 PM, January 10, 2007
There are known facts in the above posted questions, please persue....
Not persue, but pursue!!
Heavenly Father,
Help us to live in this world with your commands as our guide. Help us to love and obey.
In Jesus's name,
AMEN.
Day 11: Genesis 31-33
American English translation ("NIV")
King James
Please pray a Great Commission prayer for today's nation of the day: Australia
libertyinchrist,
I read thru three times in an attempt to glean anything of substance. The only thing that I have gathered is there appears to be an agenda to destroy every voice other than your own.
On the other hand, it could be that you are making a fairly decent living selling books filled with this junk. If you aren't making a living off of this where can free copies of your books be obtained.
Is the "pot" differnent from the "kettle"? I think not.
Expect no further response from me. You are the first and only to be placed on my "always scroll by" list.
Tim, I am impressed you made it through it three times!!! lol
oops?? Did I get it all wrong yesterday?
Genesis 31 (NIV)
Jacob Flees From Laban
1 Jacob heard that Laban's sons were saying, "Jacob has taken everything our father owned and has gained all this wealth from what belonged to our father." 2 And Jacob noticed that Laban's attitude toward him was not what it had been.
Why were Jacob's sons saying that?
I'll have to go back and re-read yesterday's. Did I get it wrong yesterday?
****MAJOR DISCLAIMER OPPORTUNITY ****
...humbly...
Let me go ahead and tell you all that I don't have the Bible memorized. Now that we are reading past Genesis 1-11 (but not done discussing even that part) we are past the material that I have used so much in witnessing to Hindus and atheists and Muslims.
As we go through the Bible this year you will see me make lot's of mistakes and say things that people will say are doctrinally incorrect. Please forgive me in advance. I am not claiming to be a Bible scholar or a doctrine expert.
The only Christian doctrine I am 100% sure about is that I will go to Heaven someday because of my faith in Jesus Christ's atoning work at the cross and my trust in that work he finished.
I am certainly willing to change my position and admit mistakes and even back up and re-read things to better understand. You will also see me forget things and just say stupid stuff sometimes.
But I am not ashamed to try to read the Bible. Not as your teacher but as a fellow student.
I have to go offline now but I will re-read yesterday's and get back to you.
**URGENT** Questions that need to be on our minds:
Why did Laban's sons turn on Jacob?
Why did Laban allow statements from his sons to convince him Jacob was wrong?
What was Jacob doing with those strips of Poplar?
(offline).
I have a healthy skepticism of psychology. Much of it is pure humanistic drivel. I would not allow a secular psychologist to counsel me or one of my children.
However, some Christians go too far in their analysis. We must be careful with broad sweeping generalities. Where the Bible speaks it is 100% true, but that does not mean it represents all the truth there is.
If anyone wants to read a paper that analyzes whether psychological counseling is biblical please click here. The paper is entitled "Is Biblical Counseling Biblical: Insight from Scripture and Classical Readings to the Current Anathematizing of Psychology."
It was written by Greg Koukl, an adjunct professor of Christian apologestics at Biola University, and founder of Stand to Reason apologetics ministry. Greg is often a guest on Hank Hanegraaff's Bible Answerman broadcast. You can read some of his writings online at the Stand to Reason website or in back issues of the Christian Research Journal available in the BBC library.
Great posts Liberty.
4545 - I wonder if SG has learned from all of this. You seem to know him better than most here. What is your opinion? Has he learned from his mistakes? If so, how specifically? I am ready to forgive him and support him, but I can't help but wonder if he is changed for the better due to all of this.
Pinker Socks said:
"Liberty,
Dr. Dobson is a Godly man and a child of God....for your own sake please be careful, you are trashing one of God's own."
Agreed.
Now hopefully people can make a little application and see that they should also be careful before trashing our Pastor.
Mr. Sundquist has in the past been fully embraced by both members of this blog and by "SavingBellevue."
I am glad to have been a part of getting people to recognize his misguided attacks on men of God for what they are.
Pinker Socks said- liberty,
Dr. Dobson is a Godly man and a child of God....for your own sake please be careful, you are trashing one of God's own.
REPLY- WOW!! Please listen to yourself. You and others have been trashing MANY of God's own from day one of all this stuff with no apologies along the way.
iwasthere- Great post, you beat me to it.
Liberty
Dobson believes in the sinful nature of man.
He also understands his need to be valued and that value is found thru his identity in Christ.
A good christian psychologist is just someone who has benefited from the study of mankind and helps a believer put scriptural principles into everyday practice.
It is clear you are suspect of everyone. It must be a hard way to live.
Maybe you should see a psych...er..a counselor of some sort.
mo-scratch said- 4545 - I wonder if SG has learned from all of this. You seem to know him better than most here. What is your opinion? Has he learned from his mistakes? If so, how specifically? I am ready to forgive him and support him, but I can't help but wonder if he is changed for the better due to all of this.
REPLY- Yes, I think he has grown and learned a great deal from everything that has happened. He told us one of his first Sunday mornings at Bellevue that he was going to make mistakes along the way. He has and we all have. Many were so used to Dr. Rogers and how everything seemed to be perfect all the time. Things were never perfect, they just seemed that way to some. I for one am very happy that God sent Dr. Gaines to Bellevue. I truly feel that we were in for some tough times no matter who was Pastor and I am glad Dr. Gaines is here. We needed someone strong and I thank God for Dr. Gaines everyday. We will get through these tough times in God's timing and be stronger and more dependent on Him than ever. There are lots of things going on at Bellevue that have nothing to do with Dr. Gaines. Never have and never will. God is getting Bellevue where it needs to be. We need to stop making OUR lists of what WE think needs to be done and give God a clean sheet to write on it what He desires. I can take these tough times, because I know God is at work.
4545
If Dobson had mistreated staff, veiled his leadership in secrecy, displayed attitudes of greed and arrogance, talked out of both sides of his mouth, broken several laws, defended a child molester and not mentioned the victim, and other such things, I would not defend him.
Instead I would want his behaviour exposed.
No inconsistencies here at all..
Except for the fact that you are back when you said you were leaving this forum.
4545, I agree with your 11:00 post.
Why does it matter if 4545 is a deacon?
So many times during conversations on anonymity people have brought up that it puts us all on a level playing field- it doesn't matter your status at the church, how much money you have, etc. Are the opinions of 4545 any more or less valid if he is a deacon?
If God is at work, and I believe He is, I'm sure it would help if so many would quit covering up, making excuses for, and labeling as mistakes what God calls sin.
Someone can sin and it can still be a mistake. They are not mutually exclusive.
EZ
Dobson is not MY king. I am defending him BECAUSE his words and actions do NOT conflict with scripture. I will defend any christian based on this. But I also hold other leaders to this standard.
Sounds like we agree :)
cjesusnme,
You have mail
eZekiel,
Answer no, I don't expect any man to have God's views on every issue at all times. I am certain that I don't and am certain that you don't either. I also would not consider my defense of a friend of the gospel to be crowing him as king. Your ascertion is simply incorrect.
cjesusnme said...
4545,
Is there a chance you would email me? I have some questions I would like to address with you off of the blog. I am sincere and will keep it just between us. My email is attached to my profile. Thanks and have a great day! Oh....I'm still praying for you! :)
11:07 AM, January 11, 2007
westtnbarrister said...
cjesusnme,
You have mail
11:23 AM, January 11, 2007
I just knew it. WTB and 4545 are the same person!
I think many here are using the WORD for guidance. There is a problem though- we are applying human reasoning to a Holy text. Even very Godly men have disagreed about the interpretation of the Word.
Some people have a very narrow view and some tend to take the "spirit" of passages as a whole as the way to go.
I would just like to remind everyone that we're getting way off topic with all the discussions about psychology and James Dobson, James Sundquist, et al.
Please reread the topic heading if you need a reminder of what we're here for. There are plenty of other forums for discussion of psychology and theology.
Thank you,
NBBCOF
NBBCOF,
Good Point! I started to reference that myself earlier today.
Back to the subject at hand!
Why Deny?
Just like an immature teenage kid, you're not caught until your caught. Sometimes denial is the only form of self protection and self preservation available.
So, when the truth is damaging, build a wall of denial. Even if it is broken down, you have given yourself more time to think up a better denial and build a wall behind the wall.
The truth could have cleared things up months ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHb1NDoUMOI
Link to youtube video of Dobson on Larry King Live about Ted Haggard.
Note: Dobson has been very close to Haggard working on political issues. Also note Dobson thinks it will take 4-5 years to help Haggard come out of Homosexuality.
NBCCOF,
Your 11:27 post is hilarious.
Thanks for the laugh! :)
cjesusnme said...
bepatient,
It does matter if he is a deacon. We were told to take our questions to the deacons (especially now that the Communications committee is no more) and I wanted to ask him some things which have been weighing on my mind. Thanks for asking though! :)
cjesus,
I think the timing of the disbanding of the Communications Committee was played out to coincide with the release from the pulpit about the PW issue. If the CC had still been operating (in you can call it that) there would have been an even greater attendance - an uproar even! JMHO..:)
david s
This is a discussion forum and the views here are diverse so I hope you are not saying the blog has lost credibility. Others here don't necessarily speak for me.
I do think if you're against everything,your credibilty is highly suspect.
The comparison of SG to Warren in past threads was more about his use of techniques that Warren espouses:
getting rid of dissenters
elder led form leadership
exchanging expository preaching for topical(lends itself to preaching out of context)
Covenants to tithe and support pastor
contemporary music
There are a lot of parallels.
He IS losing many members over this because they are used to sitting under Dr. Rogers whose only agenda was preaching the word. This is called "getting rid of the dissenters".
After all these "hindrances to progress" are purged, the church will fill up with new members who want this new fuzzy, emotionally charged, contemporary environment. They won't be as well grounded in the word and will be more easily manipulated.
SG has purged two other churches this way so I think he believes it is his mission.
bepatient: I think many here are using the WORD for guidance. There is a problem though- we are applying human reasoning to a Holy text. Even very Godly men have disagreed about the interpretation of the Word.
Some people have a very narrow view and some tend to take the "spirit" of passages as a whole as the way to go. "
Can you be specific?
NASS said: "I just knew it. WTB and 4545 are the same person!"
Hey, I resemble that remark :)
david s
This is purely discussion.
We don't vote on our views here.
However, this is taking place in another forum :)
Stay tuned.
NBBCOF
That was some dirty trick you played on WTB :)
imaresistor said...
Mike Bratton said...
"Mr. Sundquist, please stop by my place. There's something there just for you."
Mr. Bratton...I don't even know what to say. This sounds terrible. Surely you don't mean this. Sounds like you are sporting brass knuckles. ???
No need to respond to me...I won't engage in distasteful dialogue. I just am pleading to you to change your tone.
5:07 PM, January 10, 2007
That post of yours has to be a joke. Watched one too many "Sopranos" episodes, perhaps? :)
Unlike some of the "regulars" here, I said nothing pugilistic or otherwise confrontational. Quite to the contrary, my invitation was nothing if not polite.
When inviting someone to read something you've written concerning his actions can be even tangentially construed as "terrible," "distasteful," or akin to "sporting brass knuckles," we should all just stop even trying to communicate with one another.
--Mike
The CC was supposed to run through December 10th. It was even announced in the bulletin. Then when they arrived to a room filled with some 300 people on December 3rd, all of a sudden, that was it. No more meetings.
There was a big sign on an easel in the west lobby announcing the CC meeting place and stating it would run from 8:30 until 9:30 each Sunday morning. (They changed it to 8:00 at the request of those in attendance after the second or third meeting to allow more time.)
At that last meeting when Harry Smith announced about halfway through all the "I don't knows" that the meeting would be adjourning at 9:15, a lady quietly walked out of the room and returned holding that big sign which clearly showed the meeting was scheduled to last until 9:30. Harry didn't say a word, but that was truly a Kodak moment! The meeting was adjourned at 9:30.
I suspect there would have been 500 people there the next week, and they knew it was going to get out of hand. Imagine the turnout if they had a meeting after the December 17th "announcement" from the pulpit! They would have had to conduct it in the parking lot.
Upon further reading, ima, thanks for your apology.
--Mike
david s,
I appreciate your wise words.
There are those actually working quite hard to define a brief summary of the specific items that are of most concern. It has been difficult to remove personalities and personal preferences from those items, but in order to be credible it must be done.
I would love to have your opinion as a minister.
My opinion is that the secrecy invovled in leadership has led to issues of integrity. The secrecy has been allowed because of a pseudo elder-led system, that has not been mandated by the church. This elite group of elders have been able to control almost everything within the church.
ie..
The man who was called to fill our pulpit.
The financial issues of the church.
The hiring practices.
The firing practices.
The committee appointments.
The deacon appointments.
The scope of communications.
The detail of communications.
etc..etc..etc.
I would be interested in your ideas from seeing the issues that have been raised.
If there are ideas that you would prefer not to share on the blog, please e-mail me. It would be greatly appreciated.
cjesusnme
You have mail :)
Lindon,
I will take alcohol as my example. Everyone has an opinion on it. No where (that I have found) does it say in the Bible "do not ever let any drink with alcohol touch your lips".
It warns against drunkenness, love of drink, etc.
Some people take that to mean you cannot have alcohol. Some people think it means you can't get drunk. Some people think it means you must avoid it at all costs- even supporting a business that sells alcohol, etc. and there are all kinds of interpretations in between, even between theologians, pastors and your average Bible-reader.
NASS may be on to something. Anyone who has read the blog for long knows WTB is the resident genius (Mike B., you are really smart too). Did WTB cleverly devise hisservant, 4545, and ACE to make Steve Gaines look bad? Someone would have to be pretty smart to think of doing that. No one has done more harm to their own cause than 4545 and hisservant and ACE. Remember that old saying "with friends like that, who needs enemies."
I just love a good mystery.
cjesusnme,
Yahoo is no longer my friend!
Could you strap the message to a turtle?
proverbs-
I support SG, do I make him look bad?
What about Memphis?
We disagree with most of the people here.
all you yahoo users need to switch to gmail!!
I will personally send you an invite if you need it!!!
bepatient,
Not to the same degree as 4545, ACE, and hisservant. A friend in my Sunday School class told me she knew she needed to find out what was really going on at church because of how hateful ACE and hisservant were on the blog. I am not accusing them of anything, just telling you what a friend said to me.
Another friend just read my comment called to say that if you read WTB carefully, it is difficult to know where he stands. He has defended Steve Gaines on some things. He raises questions and wants accountability on other things.
I don't know what to think. I thought maybe NASS was on to something.
cjesusnme
I had to send that mail again :)
and I have friends who say this blog is a cesspool and they can't stand to read it because of all the hateful things said by the "anti" camp.
For the record, I don't agree- I think this blog is not something you can just scan every now and again- you have to take it as a whole- there is a lot of good and bad.
A lot of people I know have said that every time they read this blog or savingbellevue they feel more support and sympathy for Steve Gaines.
I guess it just depends are where you are coming from. I see a lot of flawed behavior and words from both sides (including myself on occasion- I am only human!)
David S,
You are answering the Macedoian call for help and that is why I asked.
Your insight is helpful.
You have laid out a two part process.
First the pulpit.
Second the pew (leadership, it just sounded more theological to say pew). :) :)
You are very correct in your assertion that the model of our church governance predates Rick Warren. It worked well under Dr. Rogers, but has not worked since. We are now finding out that there were things that he was unaware of as well, so it was far from perfect.
Long time lurker who has a few questions since that seems to be the way things are done around here!
1. What if the "investigation/inquiry" is legitimate, will you all be satisfied?
2. What if Paul WIlliams does in fact lose his job, will you all apologize for saying that Bellevue intends to do nothing?
3. What if DHS/DCS etc. cannot or will not, by law, pursue their own investigation, will you all apologize for saying that Bellevue is not cooperating?
4. What if it turns out that Steve Gaines was convinced by Paul Williams and others, for whatever reason, that he(SG) was not the first to know of PW's "moral failures".. would that make a difference to you?
5. Is there anything short of Steve Gaines resigning, that will make you stop all of the insinuations/innuendos/slander/gossip/murmuring?
6. Why do people like the OP list accusations that are evidently unfounded or “I think” statements and then follow them up with statements like " Can anyone confirm that what I've listed as accurate?” or JMHO:) ?
7. Should we post things that we don't know as fact when our(your)stated purpose is to know the truth?
8. Do you think other people read your “I think” type posts and consider them to be factual, when in fact you know that they are not true or you only suspect them to be true?
9. Does that honor God or His church?
10. How would you feel if people said things about you that were unfounded or only your “Humble opinion”?
11. Are people more likely to respond to genuine concerns or to unfounded accusations/allegations/innuendo etc?
12. Should brothers and sisters harm each other by allowing these accusations/innuendos etc. to be discussed as if they are fact when they are not known to be?
13. Do you not think that Steve Gaines’ family is hurt by all of these things that are posted here?
14. Do you not care that you are hurting a brother?
15. Do you think Steve Gaines is not a brother?
More to come!
bepatient,
We are in agreement. At times this blog has harmed the cause of those opposed to Steve Gaines. On the other hand a lot of good information has come from the blog too. If the church had immediately tried to get the bottom of all the issues in August and September, this would be over and there would be no need for the blog.
"What if it turns out that Steve Gaines was convinced by Paul Williams and others, for whatever reason, that he(SG) was not the first to know of PW's "moral failures".. would that make a difference to you?"
Makes no difference to me at all. In June he was the one who decided it was under the blood and PW would keep his job.
"Makes no difference to me at all. In June he was the one who decided it was under the blood and PW would keep his job."
What about the other 14 questions?
Issues I see as serious:
1. Not revealing to authorities child abuse.
Do you know what the law states on that?
2. Not cooperating with authorities.
Hearsay.
3. Treatment of Dr. Rogers. (Key)
How so?
4. Treatment of Mrs. Rogers. Refusing to honor her request the day the molestation issue was revealed.
What could the reason be that no blanket statement could be made?
5. The threat of having tithing records revealed.
Revealed to whom?
6. Gift to FUMC.
Aiding people who have had a disaster. What about the people that came to our church from Katrina. I don't believe they were screened for their beliefs.
I could respond to the other 14 questions but even if, a big if, you are right about every one of them it does not change my view. By allowing Paul Williams to remain on staff in June, Steve Gaines knowingly allowed a pedophile to stay on staff. If Bellevue Baptist Church and Southern Baptists no longer believe in the New Testament qualifications for ministry, then I need to find a new church and a new denomination. My husband cannot serve as a deacon because I was divorced. I was previously married for 16 months when I was in college. I have been married to my husband for 32 years. Because of my sin he cannot be a deacon. How can Paul Willams be a minister? How can Steve flippantly overlook Scripture. When he did that he supplanted God's wisdom with his own. He has to resign and repent. Steve can still serve as a minister somewhere. I just do not believe he can serve at Bellevue any longer. Sorry, this one issue trumps them all for me. I have gone back and forth. In late November I decided I did not believe Steve had done enough to have to leave. Then the Paul Williams story was revealed. I have worked hard to find the truth about it. A lot is known that has not been written about on the blog. This issue made it all crystal clear for me.
Dear BBC family:
Providing for honest things, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men.
2 Corinthians 8:21
bepatient, thanks for responding. You are right about alcohol as even Paul tells Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach. We also know it was fermented because of the 'wineskins' and the wedding.
We do the same legalistic thing with cigarettes, food, etc. The Bible tells us to do EVERY THING to the Glory of God. That includes eating, drinking, dressing, etc.
An important thing to keep in mind with things like alcohol according to scripture is moderation and not causing a weaker brother to stumble.
Do you have an example of how scritpure has been 'spiritualized' or misquoted on this blog?
heardenuf, I have a question for you. Do you think it is important for a pastor to shepherd according to scripture? If you do, can you explain why this pastor ignored 1 Corinthians 5 when he was first told about PW?
heardenuf,
1. If the church holds an open business meeting to address all of issues concerning this incident and others. It would most likely satisfy everyone.
2. The administration would have to have some pretty solid evidence for doing nothing until pressured by information from the blog.
3. DCS reported specifically, very specifically that they are not receiving cooperation from Steve Gaines. The church is currently cooperating thru legal council.
4. If Steve Gaines failed to validate his trust, then that is his failure.
5. Nothing short of an open mike business meeting will reveal the truth. Insinuations, innuendos, slander, gossip, murmuring seem to have been patented by the Communication Committee.
6. Because we seek to verify information as much as possible. It would be so much easier for the administration to exhibit some integrity.
7. Searching for truth, almost always begins with questions.
8. "I believe" is exhibited in a number of things in peoples lives every day.
9. Striving to purify the church is honoring.
10. How I would feel would be irrelevant, how I responded would be.
11. As stated before accusations, allegations, innuendo seem to have been patented by the Communication Committee. They had a wonderful opportunity to exhibit transparency and refused to do so.
12. Truth can harm people. We are shooting down into the well. Folks that don't want to be hurt need to quit hiding in the well.
13. I believe that Steve Gaines has done much damage to his family by refusing to be open and honest.
14. A brother has cripled an entire church and has shown no sign of intending on doing anything different than to continue.
15. The church is called to hold brothers accountable all the more.
You asked many questions and have been answered, whether you agree with those answers or not.
I have only one question.
Why is it so much easier to get answers here than from the church and should it be so?
"Steve can still serve as a minister somewhere. I just do not believe he can serve at Bellevue any longer."
I'm just saying, the way Steve is talked about here, it is as though many think he is unfit for any ministry position.
"Sorry, this one issue trumps them all for me."
You don't have to be sorry for what you believe, I just don't like the manner in which many have "voiced " their opposition. Slander/innuendo/gossip are uncalled for especially in a "Christian" conflict.
Mom4:
I suggest you go to a deacon through the proper channels- most of them would be happy to answer your questions.
"heardenuf, I have a question for you. Do you think it is important for a pastor to shepherd according to scripture?
Yes
" If you do, can you explain why this pastor ignored 1 Corinthians 5 when he was first told about PW? "
I can't explain anything for anyone that I do not know about personally. That's the problem on this forum, too many people speak about things that are hearsay and not personally known. Do you know personally that he has done all of these things attributed to him, or have you gleaned many of them from this forum?
Proverbs,
Did WTB cleverly devise hisservant, 4545, and ACE to make Steve Gaines look bad?
No, WTB didn't....at least not to Ace.
No one has done more harm to their own cause than 4545 and hisservant and ACE.
And what harm have I done? Absolutely nothing. The only thing I have done was reveal the truth but that is often deleted from her. Perhaps our blogmaster is afraid of going out of business or something, I dunno...
A friend in my Sunday School class told me she knew she needed to find out what was really going on at church because of how hateful ACE and hisservant were on the blog.
How lovely...see below...
I am not accusing them of anything, just telling you what a friend said to me.
So here my question. Proverbs, I'd love to hear your answer on this. Anyone else can chime in too.
Are my posts full of hate? A simple yes or no answer will do. BUT - if you say yes, please provide concrete evidence (i.e. EXACT quotes) from my previous posts. You see see that my posts are not hate-filled, it is other people's posts that are.... I look forward to hearing what you people have to say about this. I also look forward to an apology for even bringing that up.
Lindon:
I can search back through if you want specific examples but I can think of two broad examples for you-
The verses in 1 Timothy about being an overseer/deacon.
I think you would be hard pressed to find someone that had ALL of these qualities ALL of the times. For instance the term "gentle". I know very few men that are "gentle" all the time. So does that mean that they are disqualified from being deacons?
And the verses on being a Godly wife. I don't know anyone who is ALL those things ALL the time, but I don't think anyone would say that there are not Godly wives out there.
I am not trying to start an argument about what we believe on all this, just that sometimes we choose to go with the "spirit" of something such as the Godly wife passage vs. the literal interpretation.
Issues I see as serious:
1. Not revealing to authorities child abuse.
Do you know what the law states on that?
Answer: State law (CPS) is that if a minister suspects abuse it has to be reported.
And what exact law or statute are you refering to? I would like to see the law for myself as opposed to taking your word for it.
2. Not cooperating with authorities.
Hearsay.
Answer: It’s not hearsay because it came from David Brown who spoke to the DA.
What about the other posts saying that Steve is cooperating? Who do I believe or better yet, who do the people reading all of this believe?
3. Treatment of Dr. Rogers. (Key)
How so?
Answer: If you had really been lurking long you would know. I’m not reposting it.
Hmmm, that's not a real answer. Can you give me a link to some info?
4. Treatment of Mrs. Rogers. Refusing to honor her request the day the molestation issue was revealed.
What could the reason be that no blanket statement could be made?
Answer: She requested that it be made known that Dr. Rogers had no knowledge of this; that it was new information. That was not revealed, so she went to the radio to get her statement out.
Do you know exactly what Mrs. Rogers asked Bellevue or what has been "reported" here. Could it be that Bellevue has to "investigate" everything before making a complete statement? What if after the investigation that statement is made? We'll see.
5. The threat of having tithing records revealed.
Revealed to whom?
Answer: That is a concern of those here, not mine. My understanding is that those who want to serve have to be “tithers” and that S.G. has said he has no problem checking tithing records. But I can’t document that.
Thank you
6. Gift to FUMC.
Aiding people who have had a disaster. What about the people that came to our church from Katrina. I don't believe they were screened for their beliefs.
Answer: FUMC had insurance that covered their building burning. To give to them beyond the need for aid is to help a ministry that endorses immoral behavior. (Truth is, I don’t see this as a major issue. I was listing issues I think seem to be central to others that might get us back on track and off the: James Dobson is bad... stuff)
Thank you
gotta go live my regular non-blog life- Lindon, feel free to email me if you would like to talk more about this.
ACE,
I won't apologize for telling what others perceptions of you are. I do not believe you are hateful. You generally represent your side just fine.
I will apologize for lumping you with 4545 and hisservant. You are different. Please accept my apology for that.
You have to realize the damage that has been done by the pastor's supporters. 4545 and hisservant are convenient examples. Consider the disdain shown the church by the communications committee. They hurt the pastor tremendously. Has anyone done the pastor more harm Billie Tapp? Maybe you don't fall into that group.
Tim,
I spoke yesterday with Larry Griffin who is with the regional office of the State of Tennessee Department of Child Protective Services (DCS).
I asked him about the statement that Bellevue was not cooperating with the investigation that his office was doing. He said that this was NOT TRUE. He did mention that until he left who he was with versus just his name and number there had been a delay in the original attempts.
Mr. Griffin stated that he had been in contact with the correct people at Bellevue and they have been willing to help him as he has asked. He stated again that they HAVE BEEN cooperative.
Mr Griffin said that he doesn't need anyone to apply pressure to anyone at this point. He asked that Mr David Brown and others please allow him and his office to do their jobs. He would like this investigation to be through, comprehensive and be done in a timely manner. At this point he said that will require others to allow them to do what needs to be done and Bellevue has been doing this.
He also stated that he did not contact David Brown or anyone and discuss the need for help.
I also tried to contact Mr. Kevin Rardin. He is in court for the rest of the week according to his voicemail. I will continue to try to reach his office.
1. If the church holds an open business meeting to address all of issues concerning this incident and others. It would most likely satisfy everyone.
Do you not think it would turn into a free for all like the Communication Comm. Meetings? Would everyone be satisfied? I think not, some people don't want the truth.
2. The administration would have to have some pretty solid evidence for doing nothing until pressured by information from the blog.
Can we just wait until the investigation is complete before hanging everyone at Bellevue? If they don't do anything, then you can say all that has been said then.
3. DCS reported specifically, very specifically that they are not receiving cooperation from Steve Gaines. The church is currently cooperating thru legal council.
Wher is this from DCS? All I have seen is that David Brown has said so. Can we get some factual/written confirmation before slandering?
4. If Steve Gaines failed to validate his trust, then that is his failure.
Once again, can we wait and see what the report says before determining what Steve did or did not do?
5. Nothing short of an open mike business meeting will reveal the truth. Insinuations, innuendos, slander, gossip, murmuring seem to have been patented by the Communication Committee.
What?!?!?! Do they have a blog?
6. Because we seek to verify information as much as possible. It would be so much easier for the administration to exhibit some integrity.
As much as possible, Nice.
Can we wait to see the report before defaming someone's integrity?
7. Searching for truth, almost always begins with questions.
Legitimate questions, not those that insinuate and cast doubt to others.
8. "I believe" is exhibited in a number of things in peoples lives every day.
Things that require faith, like Christianity. But facts are, or should be facts, especially when it comes to a brother.
9. Striving to purify the church is honoring.
God will purify His own church and is doing so JMHO;)
10. How I would feel would be irrelevant, how I responded would be.
11. As stated before accusations, allegations, innuendo seem to have been patented by the Communication Committee. They had a wonderful opportunity to exhibit transparency and refused to do so.
i believe that the reason the Communication Committee was formed was to answer all of the allegations set forth by this blog and the savingbellevue website.
12. Truth can harm people. We are shooting down into the well. Folks that don't want to be hurt need to quit hiding in the well.
When they were in that well, did they(Steve's family) know they were in the well????
13. I believe that Steve Gaines has done much damage to his family by refusing to be open and honest.
That's your belief, I respect that.Just don't try to manipulate people's own chance at their own beliefs.
14. A brother has cripled an entire church and has shown no sign of intending on doing anything different than to continue.
Has crippled by having to defend himself against all of these attacks?
I still hear people talking about the "financial impropriety" that Steve committed, yet when it was all revealed to be untrue, no one apologized, they just said that didn't believe it.
15. The church is called to hold brothers accountable all the more.
And that is why I am posting, to get some civility on the board and help to remove the gossip/inuendo etc. that is so prevelant.
You asked many questions and have been answered, whether you agree with those answers or not.
I have only one question.
Why is it so much easier to get answers here than from the church and should it be so?
Because, people here don't say who they are. There is no consequence to posting if you don't use your real name, such as heardenuf!!! I just don't want to hear anymore "unfounded" allegations spewed around. When the truth is revealed, we can all make our decisions then!
Ace said:
So here my question. Proverbs, I'd love to hear your answer on this. Anyone else can chime in too.
Are my posts full of hate?
NO
Back to lurking.
I can't explain anything for anyone that I do not know about personally."
Really? Is Tom Cruise a Christian?Do you need to know him personally in order to ascertain he is not?
" That's the problem on this forum, too many people speak about things that are hearsay and not personally known."
That is a natural result of secrecy, obfuscation and even some of the nasty letters people have received from leaders in the church.
"Do you know personally that he has done all of these things attributed to him, or have you gleaned many of them from this forum? "
I based my question to you on facts that have been reported in the media which the pastor has not denied publicly.
Memphis,
you and I are good little girls and boys. We are not on the hate-filled posts list!
no.rumors.please,
Ask if they could page Mr. Rardin for you. They may or may not at this point, because I feel certain that he has been flooded with calls. If they do page him and he does not already have a mountain of calls to return at this point then he will return your call.
Larry Griffin did specifically state that he had not requested that anyone call and pressure his office. To my knowledge David Brown had never said that either. Larry Griffin did state specifically Monday that he had not received any cooperation from Steve Gaines. If he told you differently yesterday then I suppose that has changed.
heardenuf...
You appear to be the latest apologist for the administration. Take back the message that this whole business might have been avoided if a certain pastor had allowed Mark Sharpe and a couple staff members (together with, say, Craig Parker) and a certain associate pastor to meet with the deacons. But this was blocked. Had the pastor followed Mt. 18, then he would not have been in damage control mode in June '06. Someone had lied... it is still uncertain who had lied... but one thing is certain: truth does not fear light. Little things become big things if they are not dealt with biblically.
jmo
heardenuf
I can speak to a some of these issues:
The law about reporting pedophiles was stated in the news coverage
Mrs. Rogers statement (that the church refused to make her husband's lack of involvement clear) was aired on Mike Fleming and heard by many.
At the top of this thread are the numbers for the DA and DHS so you can call and verify Steve Gaines' cooperation, or the lack thereof, for yourself.
Regarding the gift to FUMC: anyone would offer food or medical help, etc, to a person regardless of beliefs - but I would not help rebuild an abortion clinic that burned down, or rebuild a Muslim Mosque - or, in this case, a liberal church that opposes God's word, rpomotes abortion and the homosexual lifestyle.
Why, if we feel Steve Gaines is unfit to lead Bellevue for integrity issues and other reasons, would we wish him on another congregation?
Proverbs,
I won't apologize for telling what others perceptions of you are. I do not believe you are hateful. You generally represent your side just fine.
Then please tell your friend I am awaiting his/her apology.... ;)
I will apologize for lumping you with 4545 and hisservant. You are different. Please accept my apology for that.
You don't have to do that. I have never seen hate-filled posts from them either. Often those who cry that we are posting with hate just do that because we disagree with them and they can't figure out anything better to say.
Nonetheless, thanks for the apology, though one really isn't needed here.
Has anyone done the pastor more harm Billie Tapp? Maybe you don't fall into that group.
Was there anything wrong with Billie voicing her opinions? What makes her different from everyone else here? Are you opinions not valid or lesser in value because she is in the minority on this blog? Now, I will admit, I haven't read ALL of her emails fully so I don't know exactly what all she said was...
I can't explain anything for anyone that I do not know about personally."
Really? Is Tom Cruise a Christian?Do you need to know him personally in order to ascertain he is not?
Did you ascertain that Steve Gaines is not a Christian? This really goes to my point. People on this blog can say anything without proof and it can become factual in other people's minds. That is dangerous, especially for Christians.
" That's the problem on this forum, too many people speak about things that are hearsay and not personally known."
That is a natural result of secrecy, obfuscation and even some of the nasty letters people have received from leaders in the church.
I've read some of the letters that you say are nasty and I think they are wrong too. I just make it a habit to not support or propigate rumors/slander/insinuations and innuendo. Is that wrong?
"Do you know personally that he has done all of these things attributed to him, or have you gleaned many of them from this forum? "
I based my question to you on facts that have been reported in the media which the pastor has not denied publicly.
"Facts" reported in the media. Oxymoron?
Anyway, I would think their are legal implications to responding to an "investigation" that many here say is going on, but besides that, Steve has responded to many allegations and this blog continues to say he is lying/covering up. Just because someone does not or cannot refute everything thrown at them publicly, does not make the allegations true.
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