Channel 5 will have a new story at 10:00 p.m. Online article and video are here.
WREC Radio (AM 600) - The Mike Fleming Show from 4:00 p.m. to 7:00 p.m. today will likely have continued discussion. Live internet streaming can be accessed here.
Today's Commercial Appeal letters to the editor are here.
The Commercial Appeal's coverage is here, here, and here.
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TV stations are rebroadcasting some of their stories during the day today.
The Michael Reagan Show can be streamed from here.
Michael Reagan's commentary is here.
Several Bellevue threads are going in the baptistlife.com "SBC News and Trends" section.
The Baptist Press article from 12/20/06 is here.
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409 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 409 Newer› Newest»David,
Is Mrs. Williams a law breaker?
overflowinggrace,
since you don't really want to dialog with anyone...I'm an idiot, a liar and divorced/widowed...happy?...maybe that'll satisfy you a while.
I consider Dr. Gaines going over that fence the same as all of us breaking the speed limit. They meant nothing by it. They made a mistake and it is just that simple. Bad mistake. We have all made them.
All of grace,
I am sorry, I should have addressed my last post to overflowing grace. My apologies.
If Brother Steve has broken any laws, several Williams family members and others that have known have done the same. Their silence for 17 years could have caused many more issues and much more harm. Are you going to hold them accountable in the same way?
All those that failed to report child abuse should be held accountable. We do not know that any Williams family member knew of this secret except for the victim. Could it be possible PW may have made up the whole story about a confession & counseling to try and save his job?
We do know for a fact Dr. Gaines knew of this for six months because he told us himself. Any BBC person that knew of this and hid it for six months should quit or be fired. No exceptions, no matter how long the list may turn out to be. The DA can decide about pressing any legal charges against anyone.
Overflowinggrace,
AOG is a friend of mine. It is fair to disagree with him; each of us has our own opinion. But I can assure you he is far from an idiot. I know from private discussions and debates he knows more Bible than 99% of the members of our church.
fedupatbbc,
no problem
AOG,
Everything I have said is equal to the way that you are treating Dr. Gaines. I know you believe 100% that you are right. I have brother-in-law that fell into the name it and claim it religion. He believes so fervently that he is right. I know he's wrong the same way I know your wrong. I guess I'll find out for sure when we get to Heaven.
4545,
jumping the fence is not the crime of the century for sure...what bothered me is how he handled it...and I couldn't help but ask myself what was so urgent about that visit that would make 4 educated men in leadership positions trespass to make it.
Bellevue Friend,
Dr. Lee, Dr. Pollard, Dr Rogers served Bellevue a combined 77 years with out a hint of scandal,
This is incorrect. Didn't the church split during Dr. Pollard's leadership?
David,
You didnt answer. Should Mrs. Williams go to jail if she knew.
overflowinggrace,
My problems with Dr. Gaines are not personal. I don't hate him, nor am I attempting to destroy him..every Sunday I've hoped against hope that something would change.
I have a feeling that PW has been a creep for a long time. If the woman on wrec was telling the truth, then she is probably not the only one. If complaints were made to the previous administration and nothing was done, it could make a lot of folks look bad. I don't know if AR knew or not, PW could have had him totally fooled.
WTB,
Thanks for the vote of confidence.
overflowinggrace,
Sorry, I do not have to wait to get to heaven to know that sexual abuse of a child is wrong. Nor do I have to wait to know that harboring a sexual perpetrator is wrong. It's very sad to me that you do.
So Please, stand up and yell and holler and stomp and scream for your favorite pediafile harborer on Sunday morning. Maybe you could get some cow bells to ring.
Anyone who stands up and claps for SG needs to go to jail with him.
Bellevue Friend said...
Friends,
Dr. Lee, Dr. Pollard, Dr Rogers served Bellevue a combined 77 years with out a hint of scandal, Gaines in 15 months has been party to "numerous scandals!"
Not scandals so much as it has been the hateful have grasped at straws, twisted facts, and criminalized mistakes to scandalize the one they hate.
faithnhope said...
trucker,
swordoftruth asked these questions:
How many deacons are into pornography?
How many liars serve on the board and in the committees and as deacons and staff members?
How many adulterers are in leadership positions at Bellevue?
How many men in leadership are abusing their wives?
How many women staffers are in an affair?
How many leaders at Bellevue are cheating on their taxes?
How many Bellevue ministers are hiding their own secret sins?
In the sake of fairness, let me ask you the following:
Are you into pornograpy?
NO
Are you a liar?
NO But the pastor has lied
Are you an adulter?
NO but Bruce Brooks a deacon and chairman of the board of directors of BBC is
Do you abuse your wife? How often?
NO but this is what David Coombs'ex sister in lawhad to say about him"Several years ago, I had the opportunity to discuss the subject of wife abuse with the man who is now in charge of the investigation of the situation with Paul Williams at Bellevue Baptist Church. I remember his exact words because I was so surprised by them at the time. He said, "As Christians, we are all slaves of Christ without rights. A Christian wife cannot demand the right to not be hurt physically by her husband." It will be interesting to see what conclusions the Bellevue committee reaches concerning Christian children under this man's leadership.
I felt a responsibility to share this with people who may not have had direct experience with Bellevue leadership. I was saved at Bellevue and was a member for 14 years. I feel very sad about what is going on and has gone on there.
Sincerely,
Dottie Coombs
Is your wife having an affair?
NO but Bruce Brooks' girlfriend is
Do you cheat on your taxes?
NO
Does it bother you that a nameless coward with a godly name like faithnhope would confront you with hateful questions like this?
NO
Brother, it eats me alive!!!!
See a doctor before you get an ulcer
PW fooling a lot of people is a distinct possibility...most pedophiles are adept at hiding what they do..they threaten their victims into silence..and they are never creeps who hang out at parks, etc..they're you nice looking next door neighbor..your doctor..people you normally would trust.
fedupatbbc said......
Anyone who stands up and claps for SG needs to go to jail with him.
Talk about an overstatement--and exaggeration--extreemism!
I will stand and clap and go to jail with him if that is what it takes because where I come from a friend is a friend always.
fedup,
You don't have a clue what PW told SG.
Hey Matlock...why dont you get onto FedUp. I guess it's ok when its your side.
What does his being your friend have to do with the fact that he's guilty of harboring a pedophile?
Ok..the harboring a pedophile line is a bit of a stretch. You don't have all the facts, but you are ready to send SG to prison.
He knew about the rape of a child and didn't say anything for 6 months. Harboring.
Perhaps he didn't disclose information as quickly as you would have liked. Perhaps if we were privy to the whole conversation we might understand better but to say he "harbored an pedophile" is disingenuous and you know it.
vwhaley,
sooooo, from your post we should conclude that you SUPPORT the harboring of a pedafile and would defend your friend's right to do so.
That's sick. I'm wondering why you are not offended by pediafilia.
Steve Gaines has spent his integrity, are you going to let him spend yours, too?
vwhaley said...
I will stand and clap and go to jail with him if that is what it takes because where I come from a friend is a friend always.
First, I agree. That's too strong a statement. This church loves it's pastor, and that is the right thing to do, even when that pastor does not return that love.
Second, your statement about a "friend is a friend always" rings hollow when you find out about all the backstabbing friends all over the church nowadays. The most public has been the way Chip Freeman has done the "Peter denying Jesus when times get tough" thing to Mark Sharpe. You talk about betrayal. I've been betrayed by a friend like that before. It hurts.
6 months? Harboring.
Let me ask this one more time...It seems most bloggers are ignoring my post and I would like to know if any one has talked to PW or his son...SG never said what this moral failure was from the pulpit and was wondering if any one had proof that this was because PW molested his son...I would think if this was true then they would have him in jail by now or at least charged. Why is his wife still with him if this happened? It just doens't make since...It doesn't make sense that SG would allow him to stay on as a minister if this was the case...Just wondering...Check my profile for my email if too sensitive to post on blog...Thanks....It seems not one can give me a definitive answer as to what the moral faliure was...
It doesn't make sense that SG would allow him to stay on as a minister if this was the case
You're right. It doesn't make sense. This is the outrage!!!
FinanceGuy-- friendship isn't what other people give you it's what you give them. A true friend will turn the cheek, go the second mile and love his enemy. Remember the good samartian? The question was asked "who is my neighbor?" and Jesus responded with the parable that teaches us that we are to be good Samaritans--to help the beaten broken Jew eventhough the Jews did not care for samaritans.
poor-in-spirit,
I agree. We must know what the conversation with PW was before we can cast judgment. What if PW told SG that Adrian knew for 17 years.....and what if he didn't fully admit to what he did.
No really knows enough to say he was harboring a pedophile.
FEDUP...Quit saying we are not offended by pedophilia...Give me a break.
Housewife said...
It doesn't make sense that SG would allow him to stay on as a minister if this was the case
You're right. It doesn't make sense. This is the outrage!!!
Yes, but what is the real charge against PW...Has anyone in the leadership said...Has anyone even talked to PW, his wife or his son...
pis,
he wouldn't be charged until an investigation is complete, and DCS has a 60 day window to complete their investigation.
hope that helps a bit...
fedupatbbc said...
fedupatbbc said...
sooooo, from your post we should conclude that you SUPPORT the harboring of a pedafile and would defend your friend's right to do so.
That's sick. I'm wondering why you are not offended by pediafilia.
I guess it's true what the bible says about the "root of bitterness." Your dislike of SG is big enough to include me and make rash outlandish statements.
Such words say more about the state of your heart than the level of my offense.
fedup,
I say this as a friend. PLEASE watch your attitude. These are going to be some trying times ahead. Now's not the time for strong blanket statements like that. Everyone that stands up and claps for SG does not deserve to go to jail. Well, let me clarify. You and I both better be glad that we don't get what we deserve.
If the pastor or even PW is criminally prosecuted, it's going to cause turmoil like you have not seen at Bellevue. We are going to need each other, no matter where you fall on the issue.
I'm going to go ahead and say this. I hope I never hear any jubilation on here if either man is prosecuted. You should only shed tears of grief, not joy.
You will never hear anything jubilant from me other than if I can report that we have all been brought back together, and can sing with a clean heart there's a "Sweet sweet spirit".
Poor in Spirit,
Many many many times, the wife is in denial. Many times she will believe her husband against her child. She may even be aware of the abuse and does not protect her child. It usually takes more than one dysfunctional parent to pull off the abuse. One to do it, and one to look the other way. Even when she finds out about the abuse, she elects to stay with the husband. Although this is a very sick and disgusting behavior, it is not unusual.
The fact that you find it dysfunctional and unbelievable does not mean that it did not happen.
Oh, and by the way, to address it as a ' moral failure' is insulting to the victim. It is ' minimizing' the offense against the child. It is a CRIME...it's not JUST a sin, it's a CRIME!!!!! A grown man having an affair with a grown woman is a ' moral failure' ..and to suggest that the rape and sodomy of one's son is just a ' moral failure' is an outrage, and could only be spoken from the lips of a very ignorant person, or a person who is covering up.
Both of these are going way too far.
Anyone who stands up and claps for SG needs to go to jail with him.
The DA can decide if jail time is appropriate. That is his job.
I will stand and clap and go to jail with him if that is what it takes because where I come from a friend is a friend always
I would never go to jail with or for a friend that failed to report a pedophile, thereby placing children at risk. I would report and testify against him. The I would try and reconcile with him be visiting him in jail. Forgiveness and holding people accountable are not mutually exclusive courses of action.
----------------------------------
AOG said:
PW fooling a lot of people is a distinct possibility...most pedophiles are adept at hiding what they do..they threaten their victims into silence
T agree with the AOG. Pedophiles are smooth talkers and known to be liars and manipulators. PW may have lied to Dr. Gaines about confession & counseling if he thought it would help him. Still, Dr. Gaines had no business believing him. He should have fired PW and reported the incident.
Pinker,
Given what you said. Why didn't they just go ahead and fire PW (even now). Is there a fear that the church could be sued by PW for not properly investigating.
vwhaley said...
Perhaps he didn't disclose information as quickly as you would have liked.
How many children can a molester molest in six months?
Perhaps if we were privy to the whole conversation we might understand better but to say he "harbored an pedophile" is disingenuous and you know it.
10:27 PM, December 22, 2006
Excuse me but the pastor admitted he has known for six months,as for being disingenuous(a word used to avoid saying liar)wasn't that what the church leadership was to David
Brown with SNAP
pinker,
what did I say to defame AR
Bin Wonderin said...
I would never go to jail with or for a friend that failed to report a pedophile, thereby placing children at risk. I would report and testify against him. The I would try and reconcile with him be visiting him in jail. Forgiveness and holding people accountable are not mutually exclusive courses of action.
SG didn't fail to report a pedophile He just didn't do it in the manner that YOU think he should. And if that led to incarceration then yes--I would stand with him because it would be an unjust act and love for freedom demands that we stand against injustice.
Let me be clear...I dont know what AR knew. I think what I said was that someone on staff knew....and that he may have had AR totally fooled.
SG harbored a pediafile. This is not a disingenious statement. Those who think it is are merely engaging in wishful thinking. You are in denial. We have a sr. pastor who harbored a pediafile. FACE IT, DEAL WITH IT.
He just didn't do it in the manner that YOU think he should.
6 months? I think this goes beyond what anyone thinks is a proper timeline. 6 months is 6 months and you can't ignore that, no matter how much you try.
I'm hoping the DA has more sense than your comment implies.
Still find it interesting that the headlines did not read
"Bellevue members call for the resignation of PW"
There is no way that Gibbons will go after SG.
Of course PW should resign. SG should fire him. Either works fine. Why is he still being paid at all?
Memphis,
AMEN
vwhaley,
So now from your most recent post, you are still supporting SG's decision to sit on this for 6 months. You know very little about sexual predators. That gave this man 6 additonal months to commit CRIMES against more children. The attorney general does not agree with you, fortunately. He is not making excuses for SG, as you are.
You do not seem to be bothered at all by the accusations of pedifilia. Is this just a 'moral failure' to you? Shrug the shoulders, move on. Yell and clap, hoop and holler.
Again, SG has spent his integrity, you gonna let him spend yours, too?
Trucker it is wrong in every sense to say that SG harbored a pedophile I don't care how you verbalize it. The use of the "haboring a pedophile" phrase is an effort to give weight to a weightless argument. None of us know all the details and the use of supposition and evil surmising to draw outlandish conclusions is wrong.
Fedup,
You probably don't even go to Bellevue. Why don't you identify yourself.
SG hasn't spent his integrity you have spoiled and stolen it. I am reminded of what Job once said: "miserable comforters are you all."
SG stated he thought it was resolved when PW first brought to the leadership (whomever that was). The definition of the word resolved is: to deal with (a question, a matter of uncertainty, etc.) conclusively; settle; solve.
Is it too far fetched to believe that maybe he felt PW had been punished by the church, especially since there does not seem to be anyone left that knew about it????
vwhaley
Wishful thinking on your part. Sounds to me that even if you had a video tape of the crime, you would still make excuses.
Clap and yell, hoop and holler, defend and support a pediafile.
Sad days ahead at Bellevue when sin is no longer sin.
vwhaley said...
Trucker it is wrong in every sense to say that SG harbored a pedophile I don't care how you verbalize it. The use of the "haboring a pedophile" phrase is an effort to give weight to a weightless argument. None of us know all the details and the use of supposition and evil surmising to draw outlandish conclusions is wrong.
vwhaley, you are both right and wrong. It is a little too strong to say that SG "harbored a pedophile", (although it's difficult to find a milder way to put it.) I don't think that the details are going to confirm anything other than it was at best poor judgment for SG to not take some sort of action in June.
Also, I don't think it's an effort to "give weight to a weightless argument." It's a pretty heavy argument to say that SG made the wrong choice. However, I would guess that trucker is just expressing frustration, frustration that I, as a parent of children at bellevue, share.
You guys should all try to understand each other. It would make for more productive discussion on here.
vwhaley,
I did not steal SG's integrity. He destroyed it himself when he climbed the fence and then encouraged the congregation ( his sheep) to laugh at his CRIME..and by calling it an iddy biddy fence.
He destroyed his own integrity when he sent a check for $25,000 to the abortion and homosexuality supporting church.
And now, he has harbored a child rapist.
And yes, i am a member of bellevue for 15 years.
Keep on clapping.
pinker socks said...
vwhaely,
Are you aware that the only reason SG even came out at all is because he was forced out by David Brown with SNAP and the internet???? If not for that SG would have kept it "under the blood" and in hiding for who knows how many years to come!!! You give him wayyyyyy tooo much credit.
I didn't know that you had the ability to know another man's heart.
I must warn you that the bible teaches that we will be judged by measure that we judge others.
"vwhaley said...
Trucker it is wrong in every sense to say that SG harbored a pedophile I don't care how you verbalize it. The use of the "haboring a pedophile" phrase is an effort to give weight to a weightless argument. None of us know all the details and the use of supposition and evil surmising to draw outlandish conclusions is wrong."
vwhaley,
I agree completely. This is a horrible rush to judgement. Not one person from the "savingbel" crowd has all of the evidence.
If the same situation had happened to Charles Stanley, Billy Graham, or anybody but Steve Gaines they would have said "now there must be a rational explanation for this" and would have given him the benefit of the doubt.
Just chill out and let God do His work. He will work it all out. And then I predict that REVIVAL will break out at Bellevue.
What does it say about SG that even the pedophile is willing to clear Pastor Roger's name?
IF i come to church on Sunday, since i can no longer stand to look at SG, i will be taking names of the men who stand up and yell and clap for SG..I will be sure to keep my children away from them.
Housewife,
Don't you have a husband to go submit to.
Please!!
pinker socks said...
whaley,
One can't spend something they never had. SG didn't have any integrity to spend.
"He never had any integrity." Really? Can you say "hateful?"
Stanley, Graham? I think we would think twice with these men because they aren't consistently giving us reason to doubt. (Reasons you're willing to ignore time and time again.)
Transparency would have solved much of SG's self-inflicted "woes."
Housewife,
Good point!!!!!!
Thanks Pinker,
Neither are you!!!!!
IF i come to church on Sunday, since i can no longer stand to look at SG, i will be taking names of the men who stand up and yell and clap for SG..I will be sure to keep my children away from them.
I really pray that is not the only reason you will be going to BBC on Sunday.
overflowinggrace said...
Housewife,
Don't you have a husband to go submit to.
Please!!
11:05 PM, December 22, 2006
LOL. Gee, I guess you showed me!
How many fences have Charles STanley and Billy Graham climbed over while ignoring a NO TRESSPASSING sign?
If Bellevue turns the other cheek to this abomination that has occurred with the molestation crime, Bellevue better brace for God's wrath and judgment! This reminds me of Sodom and Gomorrah. Do you remember the story? God told Abraham to tell Lot and his family to leave. Lot wanted to stay. (He was keeper of the gate- he held a very prominent position in the city). The angels went to Lot and told him to get his family and get out. Then the men of the city came to Lot's house and told him to send out the men. (Homosexuality was the last straw)! The angels grabbed Lot and they fled. Lot's wife looked back and then turned into a pillar of salt.(They were told not to look back - BUT she couldn't let go). My point is this: Paul molesting his own son is homosexuality, an ABOMINATION to the LORD. If Bellevue does not stand up for what is right - God will rain His righteous judgment down on Bellevue.
I may be wrong, but it may come to the place where the righteous (not holier than thou's) will have to leave so that God can execute His judgment to those who choose to have a deaf hear. (Remember- God would not do anything to Sodom and Gomorrah until the righteous were out). Just a thought, I just pray with everything in me that it doesn't come to this.
"fedup said: Clap and yell, hoop and holler, defend and support a pediafile."
Fedup,
I'm really worried about the saftey of the people in the congregation. You are scaring me. You are spewing out a lot of venom and hatred. And you are telling an outright lie when you accuse the other side of supporting perverts
Revival of what?
housewife, fedup-
Actually, Charles Stanley and Billy Graham have both gone through their fair share of scandals, with Stanley's church splitting after he had a divorce and Graham now going around saying Jesus may not be the only way to heaven. It's important not to put any man up on a pedestal - only Jesus was perfect.
Memphis
I certainly would not attend church at BBC anymore to hear the word of God spoken from a man who harbors a pediafile. And yes, it is my responsibility to protect my children. They have other activities at church. It is my job, given to me by God, to make sure that my children are not around those who clap and holler over pediafilia. My children need to be in activities at church, but we will not be listening to the haborer of the pediafile EVER again. But i WOULd like to know the names of those who do not take it seriously and are not offended by it.
Even if 50% of Southern Baptist pastors jumped a fence this year, just for an example, that doesn't change the rightness or wrongness of the act.
Laura, Bellevue is not turning away from the issue--they are dealing with it. The fact that SG wants to remain pastor and see this thing thru speaks volumes for his committment. The easiest thing for him to do at this point would be to tuck tail and run.
mark wiley,
If someone wants to support a pediafile, and sees nothing wrong with turning him lose on the children in the church, they are perverts. Period.
It's sad that I have to explain that to you.
Grace, if what you're saying about Graham and Stanley are true, then of course I could question them. Far from putting them on a pedestal, I would want to know the truth. That's more than I can say about most people who refuse to call SG on his "stuff."
fedup, I have no excuses for what PW did, and I think and feel he will be punished for it.
But to claim that "any man" that supports the pastor should go on a list as a possible molester is insulting.
And if you feel led to go to another church this Sunday, I pray that you will find one you are comfortable with and enjoy.
Mark Wiley and vwhaley
If you two are so convinced that Paul Williams is not a child rapist ,then why not invite him over to watch your kids while you and your wives go off for a week or two.
Billy said...
I think it is an absolutely DESPICABLE act by the caller that suggested that Dr. Rogers had asked Dr. Gaines to resign. For this "man" to make such an accusation without even the hint of fact is terrible.
Billy,
I know this has been responded too, but I must say, I spoke with someone months ago with FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE of this. It is something that is very hard for people to accept, so it's not really been talked about openly. Until the person to whom Dr. Rogers said it to decides to speak out loud (too bad he is such a gentleman and man of integrity), you are just going to have to either believe it happend or not. I think I've lost a friend forever because I told him this months ago, and now he treats me like a leper. He absolutely thinks this is made up gossip, and anyone that repeats it is worse than...oh...I don't know...a pedaphile maybe. All I can do is shrug and quote the Scripture "A prophet is never loved in his own country".
I have a feeling that before this is all over, the Rogers family (and others) will be unable to maintain their silence.
The fact that SG wants to remain pastor and see this thing thru speaks volumes for his committment.
Or that he has no shame. The power is too great and the money is too enticing.
Time out for an illustration - I hope some of you read it.
Let's say we are all sitting in a room in a circle. In the middle of the circle is a table with an apple. There is a bite taken out of the apple. People on one side of the room see a clean, uneaten, red apple. The people on the other side of the room see an apple that has been bitten. The uneaten side is saying "that apple has not been eaten!" The other side is saying "Yes, it has!" The two sides keep arguing about whether or not the apple has been bitten into. Ridiculous, right?
SG is staying - he is SO committed!
vs.
SG is staying - of course, he's making BIG bucks!
Can you see how arguments like this will not take us anywhere (except to lead us into sin when we become so angry at each other we attack... the Internet may make us more anonymous to each other, but we're not fooling the Lord, amen?)
SG didn't fail to report a pedophile He just didn't do it in the manner that YOU think he should. And if that led to incarceration then yes--I would stand with him because it would be an unjust act and love for freedom demands that we stand against injustice.
Dr. Gaines failed to report to the authorities as he is required to do by Tennessee law. He failed to report for six months. Dr. Gaines admitted this from the pulpit. So yes he did fail to report a pedophile to the authorities for six months. These facts are not in dispute. Dr. Gaines has admitted to this. The big injustice is what PW did to his son. By not reporting this Dr. Gaines gave PW six months to do it to another person's son. That is a huge lack of judgment. You may think it is acceptable to allow pedophiles the opportunity to prey on kids for six months. I don't. Thankfully the Tennessee law and the District Attorney and lawmakers of Tennessee share my opinion and not yours.
graceupongrace,
I'm heading to bed..just wanted to tell you I appreciate the discourse..looking forward to your input on my blog...have a blessed Christmas season.
socwork, nice illustration!
overflowinggrace said...
Housewife,
Don't you have a husband to go submit to.
WAY over the top. You owe her and apology.
Memphis,
Let me tell you what is insulting.
Insulting is the victim of a child rapist watching men and women hoop and holler for a pastor who shrugged at the anguish the victim went thru.
Had SG taken it seriously and been outraged, he would have fired him on the spot in June, and called the officials. But he didn't, because in his heart, it did not disturb him.
THAT is insulting.
But then again, I am looking at it from the point of view of the victim. And you are only supporting the pastor..NO MATTER WHAT. If the sodomy of a child does not disgust you people, then nothing will.
Like Trucker suggested, please, go away and leave your kids with this man. Oh, and be sure to ask SG to check in on them to make sure that everything is going ok.
socwork,
good illustration. That's why I am encouraging everyone here to remain civil.
"fedupatbbc said...
mark wiley,
If someone wants to support a pediafile, and sees nothing wrong with turning him lose on the children in the church, they are perverts. Period.
It's sad that I have to explain that to you."
Fedup,
Do you know all of the facts and especially the exact words that were in the conversation? NO! You don't. Just stop & think about it a second. Why would Steve harbor a pedaphile? What would be his motive? It surely wont make him rich. This is not a tactic of a Purpose Driven Church conspiracy. He's not sitting around on Friday nights at a black mass conjuring up spells to bring down Bellevue. He is not a stupid man. If he were AR would not have picked him. There is a whole lot more to this than any of us know. And we are all sickened by pedaphilia. I know I misspelled it.
vwhaley,
Truth is (by Steve's own admission)it has NOT been dealt with the last 6 months. And why would Paul Williams need counseling and the family members say that the issue is not yet resolved if nothing else has happened recently? By the way, forget about Steve knowing about this crime for the last 6 months and saying nothing - Steve said that family members (Paul's family) came to him TWO WEEKS AGO and still he did nothing until it came out and he had to deal with it. In my opinion, Paul Williams would STILL be there today if it had not come out. If you know how it was dealt with please post.
**If I were making the salary and had all the perks that Steve has and is getting, I would cry too and want to stay.
trucker said...
Mark Wiley and vwhaley
If you two are so convinced that Paul Williams is not a child rapist ....
Ha! I guess the late hours have weakened your reasoning skills. The issue is this: You say that SG was "harboring a Pedophile" fedup keeps repeating that phrase like he has OCD or something.
I say he has not "harbored" and all you have is a 6 month period where YOU were not told and consulted. There is absolutely no evidence of a "coverup." However, you have been so thrilled over this development because you feel it justifies you bitterness toward SG.
overflowinggrace said...
Housewife,
Don't you have a husband to go submit to
Could be overflow be related to David Coombs, we know what he thinks about how men should treat women
I still want to know why PW is still being paid? SG being afraid of a lawsuit??? Who cares? Is that more important that spending the Lord's money on this guy?
If he hasn't been fired, do they think there is still the option of keeping him on staff?
Investigation or no investigation, there is no reason to keep PW on salary.
Lately as I read the blog I am reminded over and over of the admonition of the apostle John (who was simply repeating the command of the Lord Jesus):
"Little children, love one another."
vwhaley
From your last post, it is obvious that a 6 month period of allowing a child rapist lose in the church, to be around other children is just no big deal. Because it was ONLY 6 months? Go and read about pediafilia. Your last post was one of total ignorance.
"trucker said...
Mark Wiley and vwhaley
If you two are so convinced that Paul Williams is not a child rapist ,then why not invite him over to watch your kids while you and your wives go off for a week or two."
Trucker,
You almost made me cuss. I wont. But I will call you an outright unmitigated LIAR. Vwhaley and I have never once said that we believed PW was not a pervert. We are talking about Steve Gaines. And he did not commit this filthy sin either, but you seem to act like he did.
Identify yourself so I can never have anything to do with you.
vwhaley said...
I say he has not "harbored" and all you have is a 6 month period where YOU were not told and consulted. There is absolutely no evidence of a "coverup." However, you have been so thrilled over this development because you feel it justifies you bitterness toward SG.
Ok so leave your kids with Paul Williams for six months.
Fedup,
Again I state, I have no excuses for what PW did, and I think and feel he will be punished for it. I also feel that there should be something (counseling, or whatever they need) to the victim and the whole family to get through this. It has to be very hard on the whole family since all of Memphis and maybe the country knows about it.
2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.
2 (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
3 And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.
4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:)
5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.
6 And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.
7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.
Narrator (reading Matthew 1:25b) ...and he [Joseph] called his name JESUS.
(offline)
Oh, I think the church had every right to know that their children were possibly in danger the moment SG found out about it. The DA should have been told too.
It wasn't SG who reported it to Child Services!
Let's clean this thread up. Remember the fruits of the Spirit and pass them out as posters come to this board...
Return good for evil if someone comes trying to shift the blame here. Let's stay with the facts and avoid name calling and feeding the "trolls."
Consider the fact that the audience contains: 1) members of Bellevue who are not up to speed yet on what has been happening at Bellevue; 2) the press; 3) possibly law enforcement; 4) hecklers of various stripes.
If you are coming to this blog for the first time, please read the whole first page of the Forum in order to get an idea of what has been discussed here.
vwhaley,
Would it be a correct statement to say that you feel that PW should NOT have been put on leave even though he ADMITTED to sodomizing his son?
It's time the adults stop protecting the adults and START protecting the children.
Laura said...
In my opinion, Paul Williams would STILL be there today if it had not come out.
And that's all it is "you opinion" you don't really know and that is exactly my point.
I can promise you this. If you had liked SG before this development your attitude about it would be different.
The truth is that if SG cast demons out of demon possessed man on Sunday morning many on this blog would stillcall him beelzebub and say that he performed the miracle in the power of satan.
Mark Wiley said...
Trucker,
You almost made me cuss. I wont. But I will call you an outright unmitigated LIAR. Vwhaley and I have never once said that we believed PW was not a pervert. We are talking about Steve Gaines. And he did not commit this filthy sin either, but you seem to act like he did.
Identify yourself so I can never have anything to do with you.
11:29 PM, December 22, 2006
Well you didn't mind the pervert walking the halls of BBc for six months and YOUR tithes are paying this pervert's salery to this day
"Little children, love one another."
In my opinion, Paul Williams would STILL be there today if it had not come out.
And that's all it is "you opinion" you don't really know and that is exactly my point.
PW WAS still there until it was forced to come out.
For the record:
I think that PW should be fired immediately. I do think it is wrong for him to still be on the payroll.
What I do not understand is why people are not seeking out the person that first heard about it 17 years ago with the same passion they are going after SG?
I do not understand why the Headlines read that "Gaines should resign", but there are no headlines saying "Willaims should resign"??
If you are addressing a chiristian, remember that you will know them forever. Might as well start trying to get along...
vwhaley,
What will your response be if the "investigation" shows the PW sodimized his son and then you are forced to reconile SG's inaction? Can you sit under his authority knowing that what we all already believe happened actually happened? What consequences would be appropriate scripturally for both SG and PW?
Trucker,
He walked the halls for 34 years.
Mark, please don't think that I'm jumping on you but I would like to ask this...
How do you explain that PW is still on payroll? Does this not say something about SG?
I ask this as gently as I can. It's hard to tell from reading a screen but I'm not yelling for trying to pin you down. I truly think this is a legitimate question. =)
fedupatbbc said...
vwhaley,
Would it be a correct statement to say that you feel that PW should NOT have been put on leave even though he ADMITTED to sodomizing his son?
I admit the stated sin is extremely disturbing but what I would have done is not the issue and there is no way I could answer that question unless I knew all of the details and facts.
It's easy on this blog to rush to conclusions and say what should be done because none of us have to live with the consequences of what "we would do if it was us" because it's not us.
What I am saying it that you are very quick to crucify a man (SG) whom you already disliked.
Pinker, I had not heard that about him being deceased. Is that confirmed or just what is believed?
To live above with those we love--
that will be glory...
But to live below with those we know--
That's another story.
A. Rogers
How true tonight.
vwhaley
NOTHING, i mean NOTHING that a person can do after protecting a pediafile means anything.
WE can't say, well, ok, he harbored a pediafile, but hey, wasn't that a great sermon he preached today!
Pinker, any comment on the headline part of my question?
and am I the only one getting really hard word verfivations? lol
JU said...
vwhaley,
What will your response be if the "investigation" shows the PW sodimized his son and then you are forced to reconile SG's inaction? Can you sit under his authority knowing that what we all already believe happened actually happened? What consequences would be appropriate scripturally for both SG and PW?
If you want to know what would change my opinion it would be this: If it is proven that PW has been actively involved in this sin and SG knew about it and did nothing--but that has yet to be proven.
Housewife,
I go back to what I have tried to say all along. First off I don't know why he is still on payroll. I don't want him on the payroll. But I don't know all of the facts. There is something just not quite right. Steve has no motive. Have you ever watched a detective movie? The obvious is never the ending. Just think about it. And again. I am against pervs. STONE EM. Just kidding.
What we know so far is enough that the authorities should have been immediately contacted, the church should have been told and PW be immediately fired.
He admitted to raping his own son. Is this not enough?
fedupatbbc said...
Memphis
I certainly would not attend church at BBC anymore to hear the word of God spoken from a man who harbors a pediafile. And yes, it is my responsibility to protect my children. They have other activities at church. It is my job, given to me by God, to make sure that my children are not around those who clap and holler over pediafilia. My children need to be in activities at church, but we will not be listening to the haborer of the pediafile EVER again. But i WOULd like to know the names of those who do not take it seriously and are not offended by it.
11:12 PM, December 22, 2006
Fedup, I 100% agree with you. After the holidays, I plan on visiting other churches in the area and eventually will transfer my membership to one of them. I refuse to remain associated with a pastor that harbors pedophiles.
right cjesus,
but our opinions seem to be what the fiercest arguments here are about...
I hope we are all readying 25+yrs posts this evening as well - they are very timely and I think some of us have some repenting to do tonight.
I didn't really want to know what would change your opinion. I want to know what action you will take when it is proven sufficiently to you that you can no longer take solace in the unknown. Also why do you put a stipulation such as "actively" on the SIN in question? If it is proven sufficiently to you that PW said to SG that "I sexually molested my son 17 years ago" will that not be as bad as it happening 17 days ago as far as SG's inaction is concerned?
If it is proven that PW has been actively involved in this sin and SG knew about it and did nothing--but that has yet to be proven.
Actively? You mean it's not enough that he did it once?
vwhaley
You make assumptions when you say that i already did not like him. How do you know that?
For your information, I was THRILLED when i learned that he was to be our pastor.
UNTIL he climbed the fence and started all the shanigans.
And please, do NOT accuse me of " not liking the music".. I love the music..I love Jamie Parker.
I just have a MAJOR problem with pediafiles, and those who protect them.
You see, in MY mind..Pediafilia is enough to cause me to dislike someone. I do not have to have a dislike for them PRIOR to finding out about pediafilia. Pediafilia repulses me all by itself.
I LOVE George W. Bush..However, were i to find out tomorrow that he is a pediafile, I would be the FIRST one to turn on him.
Sad that I would have to explain this to you. By suggesting that I just didn't like SG and that is why i am offended by pediafilia is minimizing the crime, and the pain it causes to its' victims.
Ditto Fedup. I was thrilled when he came too! And then he started to show his real colors...
vwhaley said...
fedupatbbc said...
vwhaley,
Would it be a correct statement to say that you feel that PW should NOT have been put on leave even though he ADMITTED to sodomizing his son?
I admit the stated sin is extremely disturbing but what I would have done is not the issue and there is no way I could answer that question unless I knew all of the details and facts.
Yea ,it is extremely disturbing but even worse are those who see no harm in allowing this rapist to roam the halls of the church for six months.
Housewife said...
If it is proven that PW has been actively involved in this sin and SG knew about it and did nothing--but that has yet to be proven.
Actively? You mean it's not enough that he did it once?
Housewife, what will heaven's record of your life be? Are you without sin? Let me ask you a question that I have yet heard.
Why after 17 years did PW come to SG and confess? Why didn't he do it sooner? Why hide it 17 years and then bring it out now?
(Let me use the reasoning of Fedup and Trucker: Maybe he was enlisted by the those who dislike SG to raise concerns and create more pressure for him to resign. Maybe this is just a great big scam.)
Now I don't believe the above parenthetical statement but that is exactly the kind of reasoning used by those who are trying imply that SG is running a safe house for perverts.
Mark Wiley said...
Trucker,
He walked the halls for 34 years.
11:39 PM, December 22, 2006
If I had known about him then I would be screaming just as loud and be just as angry, but it was your guy who found out and did nothing for six months,and you defend Gaines' inaction, and put MY children at risk
vwhaley,
Are you still around? If so please see my previous post and endeavor to provide your thoughts please. I'm truly interested in them.
Dear fellow saints. Please stop and pray. 25+ is right. Let tone this down. I did not force anything. I simply reported it as I know we are required to.
And I would not dare say that Dr. Gaines was covering it up. None of us know what he was thinking. I am upset that he did not know better. There has been way too much of this abuse stuff out there in recent years for him not to be aware. I will continue to preach if we err, it is to be on the side of the children. That is why there is NO confidentialy when it comes to suspected child abuse.
Dr. Gaines certainly knew it is wrong to leave a man with those allegations in the ministry. He should have been removed immediately. It did not happen. If Dr. Gaines had acted properly I doubt any of us would be on here railing each other.
What happens next is up the the authorities. That is not for any of us to decide. I do know that there is One that is watching this and I would dare say HE is not happy with many of us BUT HE is in control even when we are not. Now folks that is Grace!
I wish it had never happened but it did as did my rape and abuse. But you know? Romans 8:28 does work for ALL. Please be civil, agree to disagree but respect each others' opinion. I don't know how many of you won debates in school. I rarely did and neither will you here.
I am getting away for a few days. All of you have safe and Blessed Christmas. I love ALL of you.
(Let me use the reasoning of Fedup and Trucker: Maybe he was enlisted by the those who dislike SG to raise concerns and create more pressure for him to resign. Maybe this is just a great big scam.)
Now I don't believe the above parenthetical statement but that is exactly the kind of reasoning used by those who are trying imply that SG is running a safe house for perverts.
Except, it wasn't our reasioning. It was yours.
I have been gone a while, and I can see that I have missed a whole lot of strife. I think that the newcomers should go back and read this blog from the beginning, get the facts, do their homework and then come back for some sincere discussion. The arguing here is beyond the norm and it is recent newcomers to the blog (or at least their ID's are new to me). Other than a few hard cases, who have since seen some or all of the light, we have remained fairly civil until now. Please newbies, go do your homework before you come on here attacking folks for things which you are not or ill informed. There are a lot of facts in this blog - take the time to read them and scroll by the rest.
I'm 18 years old, and ashamed. The way you people treat each other makes me question everything I've been taught from some of you. If you were unaware, the students have begun talking about the 'issues' online and in face-to-face communication. I have in one day seen this form of discussion tear friendships apart. In every single thread brought up by the kids, there is always someone that says what their parents think. Please see the rammifications of your actions.
So please if not for me then for every other youth or child at Bellevue (there are roughly 2300 youth) do not bash one another, and possibly instead of discussion go and do something about it.
I did not intend to cause any problems. I simply wanted everyone that reads this to understand that it is not just yourselves that its affecting, but its affecting the youth of the church in a very negative way. So please go spend some time with your families. I would bet that they want you to.
PS I'm praying for every single one of you, and I will not be making anymore posts.
vwhaley,
When Steve first came, I did like him. I may not like him apparently to the extent of others, but I thought he was good. You know the Lord gives discernment. After watching and observing Steve's behavior and demeanor toward others, I knew there was a problem. So yes, I did state that was my opinion and NO my attitude toward Steve would NOT be different. By the way you said,"I can PROMISE you this. If you had liked SG before this development (excuse me -CRIME)your attitude about it would be different." That sir, is your opinion and you really don't know either.
Merry Christmas David Brown.
Hey, that kinda sounds familiar.
signed off
Housewife,
HUH?
JU said...
I didn't really want to know what would change your opinion. I want to know what action you will take when it is proven sufficiently to you that you can no longer take solace in the unknown. Also why do you put a stipulation such as "actively" on the SIN in question? If it is proven sufficiently to you that PW said to SG that "I sexually molested my son 17 years ago" will that not be as bad as it happening 17 days ago as far as SG's inaction is concerned?
I put the stipulation of "actively" because Paul said, "and such were you all." I believe that God has the power to forgive sin and deliver from the power of sin.
At this point the "unknown" is exactly that. I would answer you question with a question. What will you do when you find out the details and realize that it was wisdom that caused SG to hesitate in his actions?
Laura, "crime?" I didn't realize that the police had filed charges. Did I miss something.
Mr Brown,
I find it interesting that those in the Lord's will are at peace this Christmas. (tired, but at peace)
Merry Christmas to you and yours.
It was wisdom to put our children at risk for 6 months?
vwhaley,
you ask housewife what her record of sin will be...well, Im gonna take a wild guess here and say that she would not have raped a child. Just a wild guess. To suggest that " we all sin" is again miniziming the rape of a child.
You seem to be doing that alot.
Vwhaley,
I'll tell you what I've already done. I have discernment and have ceased to be under SG's authority. My family and I have been attending other services until a vote is called for SG's resignation or he outright resigns. I can not sit in his sermons without wondering what hidden self-serving motives will reveal themselves. As I'm sure you would agree I shouldn't have to deal with that during my worship. I would pray that there would be a lot more people in my situation. I fear however that there are far to few.
vwhaley said...
Laura, "crime?" I didn't realize that the police had filed charges. Did I miss something.
Even if they don't file charges, any lawyer can tell you it's a crime to not report child abuse.
To all those who say they cant wait to do standing o's sunday to make others cringe are being very hateful and unchristian. We stand all the time now for the pastor. He walks to the podium and people stand and hollar for him like he's a hero or a celebrity. This is bordering on worshipping him. Also people need to arm themselves with the HARD COLD FACTS befor following the pastor blindly. So many people have no clue what the arguements or the facts are but have their mind made up. THe facts are that he broke a law, as stated by the DA's office, and should be held accountable in some way.
vwhaley,
you just dont' get it, do you?
WISDOM...you think it would be WISDOM to allow someone that has just confessed to you that he sodomized his son to roam the halls of bellevue?
You CANNOT be serious!
Reported by Ursula Madden
Gaines' decision to keep confidence could lead to criminal charges
Dec 22, 2006 09:24 PM CST
For six months, Pastor Steve Gaines had a secret.
"In June of this year, I had a confidential meeting," said Gaines.
By his own admission, Gaines knew another minister at the church had sexually abused a family member 17-years ago.
Keeping that confidence could lead to criminal charges against Gaines.
"Everyone has a duty to report. There are not exceptions, there are not exceptions for clergy or anyone else," said Assistant District Attorney, Kevin Rardin.
Rardin could not talk specifically about possible legal action against Gaines.
But, he says Tennessee law is clear when it comes to reporting sexual abuse against a child.
Rardin adds, "Failure to report suspected child abuse or neglect is a crime in and of itself.
Rardin says it doesn't matter how long ago that abuse happened, or if the child who was abused, is now an adult.
"Even though the child you mention may now be an adult, there may be other children at risk from the same person, the suspect, and that's why it's incumbent upon you to report it to the appropriate authorities."
Depending on how much Pastor Gaines knows about what he calls this minister's "past moral failure" could determine if he is in trouble with the law.
Children's advocates also say Tennessee law is clear.
"It is that every person is required to make a report to an agency like Department of Children's Services if they have reason to believe that someone may, a child may have been molested or abused," said Nancy Williams, with the Memphis Child Advocacy Center.
According to Bellevue Pastor Steve Gaines' own words, he didn't just have reason to believe it, he had a confession from one of his ministers, who admitted to molesting a child.
"No matter when it happened, it's got to be reported," said Susan Mackenzie, a Memphis attorney who has represented adult survivors of child sex abuse.
She says reporting abuse is important because it could encourage other victims to come forward and prevent additional crimes.
"Child sexual abuse is rarely an isolated incident if an adult has sexually abused one child the odds are there other children out there," she said.
Tennessee's reporting law applies to everyone. There are no exceptions.
"It is that responsibility that we all carry and if we fail in that responsibility there needs to be some consequences to us," Mackenzie explained.
And there are consequences. Not reporting child abuse is punishable by up to three months in jail and the possibility of a fine.
This was increased just last year by the Tennessee Legislature from a maximum of $50 to $2500.
vwhaley said...
Laura, "crime?" I didn't realize that the police had filed charges. Did I miss something.
12:08 AM, December 23, 2006
Yes a crime it is against the laws of this state to fail to report a act of child molestation no matter how many years have passed since the incident
NEWS
Bellevue Pastor Staying, Texas Pastor Leaving, Over Clergy Sex-Abuse Scandals
Bob Allen
12-22-06
The pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church in Memphis said Wednesday he has no plans to resign over waiting six months to tell church members one of their long time ministers was a confessed child molester, while a Texas Baptist pastor who recently settled a lawsuit alleging sexual abuse of a minor announced he will step down at the end of the year.
Amid calls by the president of neighboring Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary and conservative radio talk-show host Michael Reagan for him to resign, Bellevue Pastor Steve Gaines told about 500 of the church's 30,000 members Wednesday night, "I'd really like to stay and be your pastor, if it would be all right."
At Southmont Baptist Church in Denton, Texas, meanwhile, 28-year pastor Larry Reynolds sent a letter announcing he would retire instead of fight controversy over public disclosure of a lawsuit dismissed Nov. 30 alleging molestation and rape of a teenager he counseled and took into his home in the 1980s.
On Sunday Gaines, already under fire from some long-time Bellevue members over worship and leadership styles, announced that six months ago 34-year staff member Paul Williams confessed a "moral failure" that occurred 17 years ago. An anti-Gaines Web site said the incident involved molestation of Williams' own son.
Mid-America Seminary President Michael Spradlin told the Memphis Commercial-Appeal that Gaines was losing credibility and trust.
"If Steve Gaines found out that a child had been sexually molested by one of his ministers and if he did nothing to address it, then he needs to step down immediately," the newspaper quoted Spradlin as saying in a Dec. 20 article.
"We cannot take chances with other people's children," said Spradlin. "If he [Gaines] knew about this and kept quiet, then he's put Bellevue in a very dangerous position and possibly put children and the emotionally vulnerable at risk."
Radio host Michael Reagan, the eldest son of President Ronald Reagan with a syndicated program heard by 5 million listeners on 200 stations, compared Bellevue to a cover-up of pedophile priests by the Roman Catholic Church.
Reagan wrote about his own sexual abuse that occurred at an after-school day camp when he was 8 in a 2004 book, Twice Adopted, published by LifeWay Christian Resources of the Southern Baptist Convention. Reagan said anyone at Bellevue who knew about the abuse and did nothing should resign, effective immediately.
"It should have been dealt with the moment he [Gaines] found out, but instead he waited six months," Reagan said. "And he better pray that no children were touched by Pastor Williams in that last six months."
The widow of long-time Bellevue pastor Adrian Rogers, three-time president of the Southern Baptist Convention and key figure in the "conservative resurgence," told a Memphis television station Williams told her personally that her husband knew nothing about the abuse. Asked why she felt it important for the public to know Rogers was uninformed, Joyce Rogers said: "I think it has to do with his integrity, and this was not his manner of dealing with things like this. He would have dealt with it immediately."
Southmont Baptist Church in Denton, Texas, held a members-only meeting Sunday and was scheduled to vote Wednesday on whether to keep Larry Reynolds, who started the church in 1979, as pastor. That was after details of a lawsuit settled for an undisclosed amount of money and bound by a confidentiality agreement were made public by EthicsDaily.com and the Denton Record-Chronicle.
Reynolds said he would step down because he believed it was in the best interest of the church. "I know that some will interpret my leaving as a tacit admission of all the allegations made against me," he said in a statement. "It is not; but I realize I cannot help what some choose to believe."
On Nov. 19, as a condition of the settlement agreement, Reynolds read a statement to the church saying: "Twenty years ago, I made a terrible mistake. I realize now that my lapse in judgment caused one of our parishioners great harm. I confess that proper boundaries were not kept. I am publicly apologizing to Katherine Roush for hurting her. I ask God for forgiveness, you for forgiveness and Miss Roush for forgiveness."
The Baptist General Convention of Texas, also named in the lawsuit, issued a statement saying because Baptist churches are autonomous the convention is not responsible for selecting or investigating ministers.
As a service to help churches in screening of ministers, however, the convention said, it keeps a confidential file of incidents of clergy misconduct.
"This process in no way protects perpetrators," the statement said. "Contents of the file are not secret and information regarding those who have been convicted of sexual misconduct is published as public information via other information sources. The file established by the BGCT is just one of many resources churches can access to discover a background of sexual misconduct for a potential ministerial candidate."
On his radio show, Reagan said while sexual abuse by Catholic clergy has attracted most of the attention, there are pedophiles in every church, and pastors "are not dealing with it."
"It's something that's going on in the churches, and we've got to start holding our pastors accountable to this," Reagan said. "Pastors aren't dealing with this very well. It's something they're fearful of, because they're afraid of being painted like the Catholic Church is painted. But the Catholic Church is painted by it because of the cover-up, not the molestations, per se. If they would have dealt with the molestations correctly in the beginning, they would not be facing the financial burden that they're facing today.
"And other churches are going to find out the same thing. God forbid that in fact somebody from the [Bellevue] church stands up and says, 'By the way, 17 years ago or 12 years ago or 15 years ago or last week my child was sexually molested by this Pastor Williams.' Because that church, which is a 25,000 member church, is going to go bankrupt, too. And well it should."
Bob Allen is managing editor of EthicsDaily.com.
Previous related stories:
Bellevue Investigates Minister for 'Moral Failure'
Pastor Reportedly Settles Lawsuit Alleging Sexual Abuse of Minor
Change Dividing Southern Baptist Mega-Church
vwhaley. Yes a crime was committed by PW;however there are no charges as of yet that we know about.
If SG is found legally at fault his punishment will be a misdemeanor as reported tonight since failure to report is just that a misdemeanor. So I doubt seriously any serious legal consequences will follow. It doesn't mean that some serious biblical consequences shouldn't already be in the works.
I end the night with this. What you perceive as arguing is plainly disagreement. Not everyone agrees that SG is the great evil one that some on here have proposed him to be and we have decided to add our voices to the chorus of discontentment to let those who pass by know that some of us have enough character to admit we love SG and pray that Bellevue will rise to higer heights and greater greats.
Nite
Memphis,
Charges cannot be brought against a person UNTIL it is reported to the authorities. THEN the authorities will investigate it. This is why it was necessary for SG to report it to the authorities. The ONLY reason the authorities found about it AT ALL is because it started to leak on this blog and SG decided he had to do damage control..
By this way, this is the SAME blog that the CC at BBC and SS teachers have told people NOT to read.
Well, at this point...you will stay away from this blog at your own peril, or the peril of your innocent children.
NEWS
Bellevue Investigates Minister for 'Moral Failure'
Bob Allen
12-20-06
A prominent Southern Baptist mega-church has placed a long-time staff member on administrative leave and launched an internal investigation into allegations he molested a member of his family 17 years ago.
Steve Gaines, pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church in Cordova, Tenn., said Sunday that Paul Williams, a minister of prayer and special projects, confessed the inappropriate behavior to him six months ago, but Gaines agreed to keep it quiet until two weeks ago, when he learned some family members did not agree the matter was resolved.
But a Web site critical of Gaines' leadership accused the successor to the late three-time Southern Baptist Convention president Adrian Rogers of harboring a pedophile and coming clean only after details of the incident appeared in a blog Dec. 14.
Bryan Miller of the church's personnel committee read a statement at the close of Sunday's morning worship service about what Gaines termed a "church matter."
"A past but highly concerning moral failure by a staff member has come to the attention of the leadership of the church," Miller said. "Accordingly, in conjunction with the advice of legal counsel, we have asked Paul Williams to take a leave of absence to allow for a confidential but complete investigation into this situation."
Miller said Williams is undergoing Christian counseling but will have no church responsibilities and will not be on campus during the review.
Gaines said he had a "confidential meeting" with Williams in June where the staff member shared what happened in his family 17 years ago. Gaines said Williams told him the activity had not reoccurred and he had been to counseling both when it happened and in recent months. Because of those factors, Gaines said, "I made the decision of honoring the confidentiality of that meeting I had with Paul."
But after meeting with a family member of Williams about two weeks ago, Gaines said, "it became obvious to me that some of the members of the Williams family, with some certain aspects of the situation, were not completely resolved. And I realized in that meeting that my continued confidentiality was no longer an option."
Christa Brown, an advocate for victims of clergy sex abuse, said the fact there was reportedly "no reoccurrence" is irrelevant.
"Whatever the reasons for why Gaines chose to protect Williams instead of protecting kids, they aren't good enough," she said.
Brown said "a dog may get one bite, but a minister doesn't get one kid," adding that Williams "should have been removed from ministry and reported to the police immediately."
"When it comes to child sex abuse, once is more than enough," Brown said. "You don't wait to see if it's going to happen again."
Brown, an attorney and mother who says she was sexually abused decades ago as a teenager in a Southern Baptist church in Texas, has asked leaders of the Southern Baptist Convention and Baptist General Convention of Texas to adopt safeguards against pedophiles in Baptist churches.
"Clergy child molesters persist precisely because ministers like Steve Gaines turn a blind eye," Brown said. "Until Baptists institute accountability procedures, not only for accused perpetrators, but also for the many Baptist leaders who turn a blind eye, church kids won't be safe."
Bellevue isn't the only Southern Baptist church in the news over allegations of clergy sex abuse with minors.
On Sunday the Denton Record-Chronicle published a story about two lawsuits naming ministers of Southmont Baptist Church in Denton, Texas, and Bolivar Baptist Church near Sanger, Texas, both alleging the pastors abused girls who came to them for counseling when the girls were 14.
The pastor of Southmont, Larry Reynolds, settled his lawsuit, as reported Nov. 20 by EthicsDaily.com. Part of the settlement required him to issue an apology at a church Thanksgiving banquet Nov. 19. Last Sunday the church held a meeting to discuss whether to fire Reynolds as pastor, and dozens of church members spoke up in his defense.
A separate lawsuit filed in June accuses Bolivar Pastor Dale "Dickie" Amyx, 61, of inappropriately touching a now 46-year-old woman when she was 14 and having sex with her beginning when she was 15. EthicsDaily.com quoted the woman who filed the suit, Debbie Vasquez, anonymously in a story Oct. 11.
The suit alleges Amyx is the father of her child born when she was 18, and that she was forced to go before the church, a now-defunct congregation in Lewisville, Texas, to confess being an unwed mother but told not to disclose her pastor was the father.
According to Sunday's newspaper report, Amyx said in a sworn deposition the girl was 17, the age of legal consent, when they began having an affair. He said he is sorry and never meant to hurt her. He said he paid child support for nine years after being ordered by a judge when the child was 9.
Brown and other members of Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP) in September called on the Southern Baptist Convention to adopt a zero-tolerance policy for sex offenders and establish of an independent review board to investigate and educate churches about sexual abuse.
SBC leaders haven't officially responded, but a convention spokesman in October said leaders were sympathetic and open to dialogue but needed more time to "vet the specific requests" made by the group.
The Baptist General Convention of Texas has one of the most thorough processes for dealing with reports of clergy sexual misconduct among state Baptist groups, but Brown says it doesn't go far enough.
SNAP has asked that a confidential file listing names of ministers involved in sexual misconduct--including but not limited to pedophiles--be made public, so parents and people in the pews can have information they need to protect their kids. The convention currently releases the information, which is reported voluntarily by churches, only to congregations that request it in the context of interviewing a prospective minister.
Bob Allen is managing editor of EthicsDaily.com.
Previous related articles:
Menorahs' Lights Bring Thoughts on Denial and Evil
Baptist Autonomy Ignored in Investigating Gays, But Not Clergy Child Molesters
Language of Foley Report Might Also Apply to Baptist Leaders
Baptist Autonomy Ignored in Investigating Gays, But Not Clergy Child Molesters
SBC Clergy Predators 'Wolves' in the Church
Clergy Predators Are As Crafty As Cyber-Predators
Clergy Sex-Abuse Activist Awaits Response from SBC
Baptist Leaders Blind to Their Responsibilities
Faithful Democrats Protest Alleged Cover-Up for Congressman
SBC Spokesman Responds to Call to Fight Sexual Abuse
Advocate Says Baptists Slow to Confront Problem of Clergy Sex Abuse
Southern Baptist Leaders Challenged to Get Tough on Sex Abuse by Clergy
Mrs. Haley,
I know we are all sinners and we would all need salvation and forgiveness - I think to classify different levels and amounts of sin is nefarious to say the least. To me, even the split second that a sinful thought fleets across my mind is sin in the eyes of God. It is my choice to act upon it and there lies the problem. Paul Williams and Steve Gaines both made bad choices. I know Paul Williams on a first name basis and there was absolutely no evidence of his past in his daily walk as far as I could see. But the Lord knew, and for some reason, the sin was confessed to Steve Gaines and confirmed by the son this past June. As the leader of our church, it was Steve Gaines' responsibility before Almighty God to take immediate action to protect HIS church from this scandal. He failed to do so and is relying on his compassion as an excuse for inobedience. I have seen no where in everything Steve Gaines has said or what has been released by the church, that he ever prayed over his decision and the Lord had given him peace to act upon that decision. He is shooting from the hip. Why?
It takes precious little character to laugh at sin, to minimize the rape of a child.
Sorry.
fedup, my post was to wvhaley, when he said "Laura, "crime?" I didn't realize that the police had filed charges."
I understand that for charges to be brought a report has to be taken, but whether or not a report has been filed or not, I think we all agree that what PW did was in fact a crime.
I, like many others, do not think SG is evil nor do we question that he is a good man. But good guys make mistakes and like all must be held accountable. I was very excited when SG came, like most, and have been supportive of him, but NOT of all his decisions. A further more, guilty people are found innocent many times. So whether or not SG is found guilty he admitted it in church. I love my pastor, and my church, but I first love Jesus and he calls for ministers to be held to a higher standard, which SG has failed to do. I will still love and support him and will forgive him even if he doesnt ask for it, but I wish he would sincerely try to apologize and mend ALL those who felt hurt by these things.
vwhaley said: Laura, "crime?" I didn't realize that the police had filed charges. Did I miss something?
I have to chime in here! To; vwhaley, yes, as a matter of fact, you did miss something! Please tell me you are not that naive. Although, by reading your responses, you must be!
Paul Williams CONFESSED to molesting a child - THERE IS THE SOMETHING YOU MISSED - whether charges have been filed or not - IT IS A CRIME!!!!!!
And, to all of those who want to say that those of us who are against the current leadership because we didn't get the Pastor we wanted - THEN YOU FELL OFF THE WRONG SIDE OF THE CABBAGE TRUCK!! It has nothing to do with that at all! I liked SG in the beginning, but my opinion soon changed. If SG could have told the truth, dealt with staff members in an honorable way (remember Jim Whitmire, Rob Mullins, David Smith?), and if he would be transparent with the finances of the church - then I would not have a hard time trusting in his leadership! He has NO WISDOM!!
Bellevue has not had this much controversy EVER!!!! SG has had to apologize weekly for poor decisions on HIS part!
It's scary enough to know that many of our beloved members can't see the facts that are staring them in the face! WAKE UP DEAR BELLEVUE!
Wayne
Well, everyone, Merry Christmas and God bless. I'm signing off for tonight.
I have to go submit to my husband, as someone so kindly said.
That was a joke and not intended as anything else. =)
Good night.
JU- To be honest, from what I have read from you on this blog, I am one Bellevue member that is glad you are going elsewhere
we do not need to be glad poeple are going else where. we need to be loving and try to work all of this out. that is what Jesus would want us to do. love God and love people the two greatest commandments. if we all followed these two things we would not have these hateful postings on this blog.
If you say we all sin and therefore have no right to react or point out another person`s sin I have to wonder what Bible you are reading?
Let`s look at this.
As I am driving to work I see a man in the car next to me put a gun to the driver`s head but I am sinner so I look the other way.
I hear on the radio that the man killed the woman but I don`t feel guilty because I had no responsibility as I am sinner and therefore his sin was none of my bussines.
I`m at work and I see one of the other employees stealing money from the company safe but I just look away because I am a sinner and I have no right to report the robber.
The company goes bankrupt but I don`t feel guilty because I had no responsibility to report the ctime of a mutual sinner.
I see a little child crying in the hallwalls of my church and when I walk over to him, he tells me his Father raped him but I just let it go in one ear and out the other because I am a sinner too and I have no right to report the rapist.
I read in the newpapers that another little child was raped at my church but I don`t feel guilty because it was not my responsibility to report the rapist as we are mutual sinners.
What does it mean to rebuke a brother?
I have read this blog for many weeks now, but tonight's discussion has reached a low that is a shame to all who carry the name of Jesus. I can't believe that you would talk this way to each other if you were face to face...but then maybe you would, which is all the more shameful.
Love each other as I have loved you - Jesus
http://www.healthsquare.com/newrx/cx1121b.htm
"Prednisone may cause euphoria, insomnia, mood changes, personality changes, psychotic behavior, or severe depression. It may worsen any existing emotional instability."
"Prednisone should also be taken with caution if you have any of the following conditions:
Diverticulitis or other disorder of the intestine
High blood pressure
Kidney disorder
Myasthenia gravis (a muscle-weakness disorder)"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1052090&dopt=Abstract
"During five years of self-medication with Prednisone, a forty-one-year old asthmatic businessman experienced periods of euphoria, psychomotor hyperactivity, and poor judgement; a period of depression and anxiety during temporary steroid withdrawal; and finally, with resumption of Prednisone, episodes of grandiosity and bizarre fugue-like behavior, with adoption of a second identity and culminating in an irrational crime. Steroids were then withdrawn, and the patient resumed his premorbid personality, but had amnesia for much of his previous behavior. The literature on hysterical fugues and corticosteroid-induced mental disturbance is reviewed. The patient's reactions are analyzed in terms of his premorbid neurotic conflicts, the psychological stresses acting upon him, and the effects of Prednisone on his central nervous system."
http://www.medicinenet.com/prednisone/article.htm
"SIDE EFFECTS: Side effects of prednisone and other corticosteroids range from mild annoyances to serious, irreversible damage, and they occur more frequently with higher doses and more prolonged treatment. Side effects include retention of sodium (salt) and fluid, weight gain, high blood pressure, loss of potassium, headache and muscle weakness. Prednisone also causes puffiness of the face (moon face), growth of facial hair, thinning and easy bruising of the skin, impaired wound healing, glaucoma, cataracts, ulcers in the stomach and duodenum, worsening of diabetes, irregular menses, rounding of the upper back ("buffalo hump"), obesity, retardation of growth in children, convulsions, and psychiatric disturbances. The psychiatric disturbances include depression, euphoria, insomnia, mood swings, personality changes, and even psychotic behavior."
I would seriously suggest that SG's irrational behavior is caused by his long term dosage of prednisone since he was diagnosed with Myasthenia gravis in 2000.
He should be medically evaluated and be forced to take a medical retirement. This could be a win-win for everyone.
Seriously, this could be an underlying reason for his irrational behavior!
I should have said the tone of tonight's discussion. The topic is a very valid one, the issues are too important not to discuss, but the tone is too caustic and hateful for us who name the name of Jesus -- he who looked at his murderers and forgave. Before I become the target -- that isn't about what PW did or what Gaines did, both of whom must be held accountable, it is about how we treat each other.
Whoever Larry the deacon was on the radio today needs to resign as a deacon.
He got on the radio and told thousands of people more than one lie.
I know there have been a lot of lies told by the leadership but to sit there and listen to the lies in action was appaling!
I know there are some deacons on this blog.
I hope you will find out who Larry is and let him know that he needs go back to the radio host and correct the untruthful facts that he gave out about the loyalty letter with the deacons.
I don`t think he fooled the host because shortly after Larry left the air, the host read Chuck Taylor`s letter and it contradicted some of Larry`s so called facts.
In his zeal to defend Steve Gaines, he ended up stumbling into lie after lie.
Deacons for Truth, please find Larry and talk to him before he continues to stumble.
Aaragon
It is about so many things but I agree that as we share and give facts it should be done without arguing.
Bent,
Thanks for posting that. Having a medical background myself it is the first thing that makes sense to me. It truly does explain a lot if this is what is happening with SG.
I would now like to suggest that SG have a medical evaluation based on these side effects of Prednisone. I would gladly get on my knees and beg his forgiveness should he be afflicted with some serious medical side effect of this drug.
"truthhound said...
his zeal to defend Steve Gaines, he ended up stumbling into lie after lie."
He really did stumble he planned it. I would have loved to see his face when Mike F read the Chuck Taylor loyalty letter to the deacons.
Everyone Bent's post is truly a revelation please don't over look it. I think that our attitudes towards SG should be moderated down a few levels given the fact that the drug he takes to control his MG disease might be causing serious issues.
bent but not broken
Are you trying to say that Steve Gaines may be suffering from some type of mental disorder as a side effect of his medication?
Wouldn`t the Pastor Selection Committee have at least checked out
the pastor`s health issues before selecting him.
About the side effect/medicine
I don`t even want to speculate on this unless I know it is true.
Truth,
They know he had MG and I think that it was under control. I'm not saying he's taking that drug but if he is boy would it go a LONG way to explain what has been going on with him as far as his errors in judgement and etc.
Couple of suggestions that have come to mind as a corrollary to other things we are discussing.
There are too many children being allowed to wander the BBC campus and buildings unsupervised. The children's ministry has policies and procedures in place to maintain absolute above-board treatment of the children in their care through the use of open classroom doors, specific instructions regarding accompanying children to the restroom, employing buddy systems, etc. When I worked in children's choir, these systems worked -- unless superceded by a parent. Many parents would sign a consent, allowing their children as young as third grade to "leave on their own" to meet the family at a designated place -- and I assume they did this for various reasons including but not limited to convenience, fatigue, and a desire to encourage independence in their child as s/he was getting older.
At no time while I had children in my care did PW or any other adult come to my classroom door and say, "I need to see so-and-so," and take that child out alone. I think the protective practices employed by our children's leadership are more solid than that, and proper training and review of these vital procedures is faithfully provided when teachers come on board and take on a teaching responsibility at Bellevue. In my case, I was required to attend orientation each year that I worked in children's choir, and that training/review was led and performed thoroughly by the godly women in the MAC office.
However, what happens to a child when they are walking the halls unsupervised may be another matter entirely. Not only would they be vulnerable to the lust and sin of a pedophile under those conditions, but perhaps someone roaming the halls with weapons (a fact already established and confirmed here a week or so ago), a voyeur -- or the peer pressure of other children to simply do "the wrong thing" (sexually or not) and become involved in activities which they have no business doing. I have seen some of the most prominent and well-loved families of our church grant their kids this kind of freedom, and I think it seems irresponsible, at least it does to me. There are even parents who simply bring their children to Bellevue activities and leave nothing more than a cell number for contact while they go off-campus for shopping or coffee. Many are elsewhere in the building involved in other ministries, but many are not.
In the spirit of being serious about the protection of our children, we need to tighten up our policies across the board in this area. I hope that will be one positive thing that could come from all of this. Even "if and when" PW is ever removed from staff (and I hope and pray it is soon), we are kidding ourselves if we even remotely think we can breathe any kind of collective sigh of relief. There is still much danger in a building the size of the Mid-South Coliseum in 2006-07, no matter how many security guards and cameras we think are on the job.
Mark Wiley said:
For the record:
I think that PW should be fired immediately. I do think it is wrong for him to still be on the payroll.
Mark, you and I agree on this.
I also think PW should have been fired in June when Steve Gaines first learned of this. Firing him in December reveals a huge lack of judgment on the part of Dr. Gaines. He saw fit to allow PW to serve for six months rather than remove and investigate at that time (June). This six months of hesitation - which did allow PW opportunity to molest at BBC or in the community - is what I take issue with. Dr. Gaines made a very big mistake and in my view should resign over this.
Dr. Gaines has yet to explain why doing nothing about PW in June was a safer and better course of action to protect children than doing something in June. I cannot see how this lack of action and notification can be explained. Allowing the cloak of secrecy for a minister that is a child molester to remain, well there really is no logical explanation for that.
I would also add that IF PW confessed to another minister 17 years ago and that “mystery minister” kept it a secret he did a great disservice to BBC members and the community at large. It seems possible this 17 year old confession story could be a lie PW cooked up to try and save his job. How convenient the minister PW allegedly confessed to is deceased and therefore unable to corroborate the story.
25+yrs@BBC said...
Lately as I read the blog I am reminded over and over of the admonition of the apostle John (who was simply repeating the command of the Lord Jesus):
"Little children, love one another."
25+, I was thinking this last night as well...."Be ye kind, one to another..."
Come on guys. You are all presumably Christians. Act like it.
mjm,
salient points. thanks
Yesterday I posted that I had first hand knowlege of something. I suppose it's only fair that I clarify.
I spoke with a close family member of the witness in question. Yes, in court that inadmissible hearsay, but this isn't a court of law, and until the parties who were direct witnesses decide to speak out (and risk getting sued i guess because of non-disclosure agreements), that's just the best we can do. Yes it's gossip, but it's gossip that has a high level of credibility in it's source, and gossip that is only relevant because of all the people who keep insisting to the board and others that "Dr. Rogers Loved and Supported Steve Gaines as the Pastor, so you should all sit down and be quiet".
With that statement, you make anything Dr. Rogers may have said before he died relevant. If you were intellectually honest, you would seek out the truth of that, rather than just try to shout it down as gossip.
Also, how many of you refused to believe the fence incident until the Pastor got up in the pulpit and admitted it? I had one person tell me that "they would never believe that unless they saw camera footage."
How many of you refused to believe the PW situation until the Pastor got up and admitted it, as well as the shocker that he's known for 6 months?
What else is happening behind the scenes that has not come to light (yet)?
vwhaley said...
FinanceGuy-- friendship isn't what other people give you it's what you give them. A true friend will turn the cheek, go the second mile and love his enemy.
While what you say is very true, I'm not sure that was the spirit and context of your comment. I stand by my statement.
financeguy,
Not knowing for sure what PW told SG in June..can you see any scenario where you might not have acted so quickly. For example, if PW told SG that somthing happened 17 years ago and he had resolved it with his family. Lets even say that he told SG that he confessed it to AR (even if he really didn't confess it). It's that reason that I can't slam SG for this or at least be as harsh as many on this blog. I guess my bottom line is that I don't think PW confessed the whole truth in June. I welcome any responses, but to all please refrain from calling me a lover of pedophiles, defender of fence jumping, pro-contempory christian music lover.
Thanks
I am grieved over what has happened to Bellevue by the latest scandal. The poor decisions by our church leadership have put Bellevue Baptist Church once again in the national spotlight with a black eye.
The real reason we are having this discussion today is because Steve Gaines did not make the correct decision 6 months ago. Had he handled it properly at that time, it’s possible nobody would have ever known. Paul Williams could have retired and gone into the sunset with no public word of what happened. The authorities could have dealt with him outside of the church instead of what’s now a church matter.
This leads me to my next point. Consider the reasons why Steve Gaines continues to make poor decisions. Is it because he has a spirit of confusion? Is he listening to the wrong men who consult him? Is it a medical problem (I believe this is a real possibility)?
One thing that can be agreed upon from all on this blog is that Steve Gaines is affecting the whole Body of Believers at Bellevue Baptist Church. The attendance and giving is down now where it was up immediately following his arrival. The sheep are leaving Bellevue in large numbers.
This measurement is sending a strong signal to everyone that all is not well at the church. Has there been a week go by since early this year without something new coming out? How many times has Steve Gaines had to apologize for something he has said or done this past year? How many people wish they had never been in certain leadership positions this past year because they were drug into situations that were unnecessary?
How many thousands, perhaps millions of man-hours have been consumed talking or trying to resolve the latest scandal? Just think if these same hours had been spent witnessing to the lost or ministering to the hurting? How about each of us on this blog? Would we have been as anxious to witness or minister with the hours we’ve each spent on the scandals? How different would our city be today if these millions of hours had been spent on Memphis?
I’m not pointing the finger at any one individual but to all of us collectively. This is something to consider.
In order for Bellevue Baptist Church to heal and get back to His work, I believe Steve Gaines should resign for the sake of the church. If not, we are going to drag on for years and we will be known in history as the church that used to be. If I were a pastor, I would not want to stand in the way of His Bride. Do we want to be known years from now as a bright and shining star that God is using to change Memphis or do we want to continue down the road we are going?
Tomorrow, I hope we do not see more standing ovations. I for one will be grieving instead of standing. If anyone stands, I hope Steve Gaines tells everyone to stop immediately (like Dr. Rogers immediately silenced the crowd one year after a moral indiscretion of a staff member was dealt with). This is not a time to stand in ovation. This is a time to weep.
I pray that God touch all of our hearts for a resolution to our problems. May God have mercy on us and show us His way.
Focus on Jesus and Merry Christmas to all.
I love each and every one of my Brothers and Sisters in Christ as you read this.
I have read thru the comments from last night and a few things jump out at me. I will try to be brief
One of them is the medication issue concerning Steve Gaines. The report that I read to my understanding was an isolated incident. Also, medication problems would not explain that these same problems existed in Jackson, TN and Gardendale, AL before medication was administered.
Another concern that I have is that it appears more and more that Steve Gaines supporters are focusing in on this being a popularity contest. It seems as if they are gathering support to elect the Homecoming King for a high school football game.
The final concern that I see is that the focus upon Steve Gaines being the one and only problem is incorrect. If you hear nothing else that I have to say please listen now.
Our church is being run as if it were a privately owned closely held corporation. I believe that if the men that were controlling our church stepped back and considered what I am saying they would agree.
This has led to multiple decisions being made that should not have been their sole responsibility to begin with. It is unwise for these men to not utilize the council that is available to them through our deacon body to make such decisions. It is equally unwise for our deacon body to accept these decisions without questions, deliberation and debate. This is the function that the deacon body is to have within the church. It is time for these men to step aside and let our deacon body function, as it should.
Don't trust my words, find a deacon and ask them when they voted for Steve Gaines to be called as our preacher. Ask them when they voted on the members of the Communication Committee. Ask them when they voted on any of the recent staff additions to the church.
This select group of men has placed their integrity in the hands of Steve Gaines and Steve Gaines has placed his integrity into theirs. The effects have been disastrous. We have a deacon body large enough that all things could be done with the utmost integrity.
All Christians must remember we are to conduct ourselves, even amidst tremendous turmoil, in accordance with the mandates of Scripture. Sadly, the last few days both "sides" we have sunk to new lows. Ad hominem attacks and vitriol have become the norm. I understand the passion, but I am saddened by our seeming inability to maintain a high level of discourse.
More than 200 years ago, a minister who planned to write an article criticizing a fellow minister for his lack of orthodoxy, wrote to John Newton (of Amazing Grace fame) of his intention. Newton replied, in part, as follows:
Be upon your guard against admitting anything personal into the debate. If you think you have been ill treated, you will have an opportunity of showing that you are a disciple of Jesus, who “when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not.”This is our pattern, thus we are to speak and write for God, and “not rendering railing for railing, but contrariwise blessing; knowing that hereunto we are called.”The wisdom that is from above is not only pure, but also peaceable and gentle; and the want of these qualifications, like the dead fly in the pot of ointment, will spoil the savor and efficacy of our labors. If we act in a wrong spirit, we shall bring little glory to God, do little good to our fellow creatures, and procure neither honor nor comfort to ourselves. If you can be content with showing your wit, and gaining the laugh on your side, you have an easy task; but I hope you have a far nobler aim, and that, sensible of the solemn importance of gospel truths, and the compassion due to the souls of men, you would rather be a means of removing prejudices in a single instance, than obtain the empty applause of thousands. Go forth, therefore, in the name and strength of the Lord of hosts, speaking the truth in love; and may he give you a witness in many hearts that you are taught of God, and favored with the unction of his Holy Spirit.
For anyone interested, the full text of Newton's letter can be found at www.cafekudzu.com.
swtt,
We are obviously in agreement in the same spirit this morning. I had not read your post as I was in the process of constructing my own at the time.
WTB,
Thanks for that.
westtnbarrister,
It is amazing how the spirit moves. It would appear that perhaps from the outside looking in that these post are so closely related that it was orchestrated and indeed it was, but not by man.
You and swtt have done a much better job of capturing my heart than I managed on my own.
Thanks to you both.
To Tim and WTB,
God bless you.
Tim, AOG and SWTT,
The Spirit is most assuredly moving!
I love and appreciate each of you.
Merry Christmas! I'm off to my in-laws.
WTB,
Blessings to you..and to tim and swtt. And also to those who oppose, God's richest blessings.
What Paul williams did was SIN, plain and simple.
Why cant we call sin, sin?
Why do we call this a moral failure?
Does that wording just "sound" better and less of a crime?
I would suggest that we be careful about putting all our proverbial eggs in the prednisone basket. Although this may indeed be a contributing factor, there are many more plausible explanations for SG's behavior and decisions. Medication side effects can definitely affect mood and thought processes, but typically does not account for a lack of integrity (generally speaking here).
If you are a man and you rape your son, does that also make you a Homosexual too?
To all how post here, we need to realize that the whole world is watching the things that are going on at Bellevue. There are many who savor the fact that there is controversy at Bellevue and are licking their chops saying such things as:
"That is the reason I don't go to Bellevue (any church), too many hippocrits there,"
"I am just as good as that, and if that is being a christian, I don't want to be one,"
"They say one thing and do another," and
"All these religious nuts are alike,"
on and on and on and on and etc.
We are being a terrible witness for our Lord Jesus Christ. Why would anyone who reads this blog want to be a part of the family of God? Yes, I know if you read all the way thru you will understand, but how many people do you think will go back to the very first posts and read thru them all? I know I wouldn't.
I want people to see Jesus in me whether it be in person or on this blog. I believe most of you do too. It grieves me terribly when I see some of the hateful things some people say on this blog. I believe that most of them who say hateful things are either misinformed or someone who wants to stir up trouble.
A friend of mine who was a minister of youth and music used to say, "What's down in the well will come up in the bucket." If we react to their actions with the same manner in which they attack, are we any better than they are? I think not.
I believe a lot of people who support SG and the leadership are mostly misinformed and do not mean to harm the body of Christ. I believe many of them are sincere when they think those who post on here are opposed to change of music and worship styles. Most of you know that this is not the case, but they cannot see it for the fighting.
I also know that some of you enjoy debating and mean no harm but I think it is harming our testimony for Christ.
In all fairness to SG, many of these problems existed long before he came. Most of our problems exist because because we are not transparent as a church. Too few men have all the power at Bellevue. It worked pretty well with Dr Rogers, but he was an exceptional man. No he was not perfect, but he led this great church pretty well. No mere man could possibly be aware of everything that goes on at a church of our size.
We have new people coming on here every day and are seeking truth. We need to be extremely gentle when we try to point them to the truth. Someone has suggested that we post a list of confirmed facts for them to see. I think that is a good idea, but I think we need to consider asking them to provide an email address and then send them an email with a list of the pertinent facts and posts. I know this would be difficult and maybe impossible since we all have lives other than this blog.
Do any of you think that we could get a few people to sign up to monitor this blog who could then be available to send this information out to newcomers who ask questions?
I just want everyone on here to remember emotions can run very high and when we get emotional we can say things we later regret. Yes, we can apologize and ask forgiveness, but we cannot ask forgiveness of everyone who has read our posts. They may have only been here one time and decided they want no
part of this.
I love each and everyone of you with the love of Christ Jesus who suffered and died for each of us. May we ask God IF He wants us to hit Login and publish each time we write something on this blog. If it does not glorify Jesus, do we really want to post it? I am speaking to myself as much as I am to any others on here.
I want to wish each and everyone here a Very Merry Christmas and a happy prosperous New Year.
To all who post here, we need to realize that the whole world is watching the things that are going on at Bellevue. There are many who savor the fact that there is controversy at Bellevue and are licking their chops saying such things as:
"That is the reason I don't go to Bellevue (any church), too many hippocrits there,"
"I am just as good as that, and if that is being a christian, I don't want to be one,"
"They say one thing and do another," and
"All these religious nuts are alike,"
on and on and on and on and etc.
We are being a terrible witness for our Lord Jesus Christ. Why would anyone who reads this blog want to be a part of the family of God? Yes, I know if you read all the way thru you will understand, but how many people do you think will go back to the very first posts and read thru them all? I know I wouldn't.
I want people to see Jesus in me whether it be in person or on this blog. I believe most of you do too. It grieves me terribly when I see some of the hateful things some people say on this blog. I believe that most of them who say hateful things are either misinformed or someone who wants to stir up trouble.
A friend of mine who was a minister of youth and music used to say, "What's down in the well will come up in the bucket." If we react to their actions with the same manner in which they attack, are we any better than they are? I think not.
I believe a lot of people who support SG and the leadership are mostly misinformed and do not mean to harm the body of Christ. I believe many of them are sincere when they think those who post on here are opposed to change of music and worship styles. Most of you know that this is not the case, but they cannot see it for the fighting.
I also know that some of you enjoy debating and mean no harm but I think it is harming our testimony for Christ.
In all fairness to SG, many of these problems existed long before he came. Most of our problems exist because because we are not transparent as a church. Too few men have all the power at Bellevue. It worked pretty well with Dr Rogers, but he was an exceptional man. No he was not perfect, but he led this great church pretty well. No mere man could possibly be aware of everything that goes on at a church of our size.
We have new people coming on here every day and are seeking truth. We need to be extremely gentle when we try to point them to the truth. Someone has suggested that we post a list of confirmed facts for them to see. I think that is a good idea, but I think we need to consider asking them to provide an email address and then send them an email with a list of the pertinent facts and posts. I know this would be difficult and maybe impossible since we all have lives other than this blog.
Do any of you think that we could get a few people to sign up to monitor this blog who could then be available to send this information out to newcomers who ask questions?
I just want everyone on here to remember emotions can run very high and when we get emotional we can say things we later regret. Yes, we can apologize and ask forgiveness, but we cannot ask forgiveness of everyone who has read our posts. They may have only been here one time and decided they want no
part of this.
I love each and everyone of you with the love of Christ Jesus who suffered and died for each of us. May we ask God IF He wants us to hit Login and publish each time we write something on this blog. If it does not glorify Jesus, do we really want to post it? I am speaking to myself as much as I am to any others on here.
I want to wish each and everyone here a Very Merry Christmas and a happy prosperous New Year.
aog,
I send you mail...you get?
jake
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