Friday, December 01, 2006
Communications Committee Meeting at 8:00 Sunday
The Communications Committee is meeting again this Sunday, December 3rd, at 8:00 a.m. in the first room on the right down the hallway next to the ERC. Last week there were over 100 people in attendance. We can do much better than that! If you have questions or just want to gain information, please be there! If each person who was there last week would invite just 5 people, we could have over 500 in attendance. Please make plans now to be there. If a teaching position or other obligation keeps you from being there at 8:00, please drop in whenever you can any time between 8:00 and 9:30.
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Ace I really don't understand this statement?Please explain your reasoning to me.
Ace's response
Reasoning for what? My question is as plain as it was written out to be. Do you think Jesus would approve of this blog? That's what I'm asking. What reasoning to I have to provide?
My response,
Ace I asked you an honest question
and received a snide response.I really do not have to research any of your previous statements. Your responses to my questions ,tell me all I need to know about you.
Either you are young and immature or you are a bitter person,angry at anyone who has questions the leadership of our church.
Ace,do you not know your religious heritage? The reformation was the questioning of the church leadership by the people of that time. As I read your post I see you as a person who would have defended the pope.
I came to this blog because I could see something was wrong at church.
I was not happy with the answers I received from our pastor,they did not ring true.
I don't hate the church, I don't see evil everywhere,and I don't belive that the people who post here are evil.They are good people who are hurt and want answers. Honest answers.
Ace ,I really feel sorry for you.You are a very angry person and sadly,You are what you accuse others of.
Don't bother to respond to me as I will expect an angry, hate filled post.I will no longer read any thing you post.That is what that little ^is for on the side of my screen.
Proverbs,
The person he purchased the alcohol for drank the entire glass and the staff person paid for it.
You need no other information to give us your decision.
Who are you to decide what information I need? How do you know that the staff person actually paid for it? Were you the waiter/waitress?
Trucker,
Don't bother to respond to me
Okay, I won't. Just don't address me anymore and I won't respond to you...it's that simple.
I will no longer read any thing you post.
Alright...I just have one more thing to tell you. It looks like you're reading another one of my posts right now.... ;-) Gotcha! Take care, good buddy!
Nass
I got brave and ventured in to see if things were gerring better at Bellevue and as I can see they are worse.
Now we have an ALCOHOL PURCHASING MINISTER AT BELLEVUE who has come to SAVE US ALL!
WOW, I am just blown away.
Ace,
Honestly, if we gave you a bonafide FBI report on any of these issues that would prove beyond doubt that what was stated was true..would you still come up with these same questions?
trucker,
are you coming to the CC meeting on Sunday? How many times have I asked that today? :)
Now we have an ALCOHOL PURCHASING MINISTER AT BELLEVUE who has come to SAVE US ALL!
Facts, please? Because until you give us some, what you are posting is called gossip.
This is my humble opinion:
No one has ever pulled the wool over NASS' eyes
ACE,
Let's stop playing games, this happened and you know it.
Everything I said can be proven.
We have Hard Facts.
Now, please answer the question?
What should we say and do?
Should we alert our Church?
Let's not be afraid of the truth.
Allofgrace,
Honestly, if we gave you a bonafide FBI report on any of these issues that would prove beyond doubt that what was stated was true..would you still come up with these same questions?
If you gave me a report then I probably wouldn't have anymore questions...but it depends on how deep your investigation went, and etc. ;)
Karen,
To quote Forrest Gump...a gozillion..but keep asking.
Ace,
Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Purpose Driven Party?
Proverbs,
Let's stop playing games, this happened and you know it.
And you know what I know...how? I have no knowledge of this event so don't try to convince me that I know something that I don't.
Everything I said can be proven.
Then why don't you prove it?
We have Hard Facts.
Then why don't you present those facts for everyone here to see?
Should we alert our Church?
Why don't you confront the staff member first?....
ACE,
Are you in leadership at BBC?
If so, please tell me what to do?
I am all the facts needed but I need to know what our Church's position is?
allofgrace,
Thanks! I guess I'm glad you didn't quote "stupid is as stupid does!" :)
karen
cJesus,
Hello.....Proverbs, Ace.....need some answers.....Pretty please
Have you asked a question that I haven't answered yet? If so, sorry...please repost it for me to see.
I am not answering Proverbs questions until I have concrete proof of what he's talking about otherwise I would be helping with the gossip which I don't want to do.
Ace,
Are you related to HR Haldeman?
Please tell me that you at least someone here sees what is going on ... I was a staffer for 4 years at Bellevue and I cannot imagine ANYONE who works there buying alcohol for anyone. This seems like yet another thread to keep you guys from chatting about the CC and the other, factual issues.
Even if this "minister" DID buy alcohol for someone else, and he didn't partake of himself, why are you judging him? Did he use a church credit card? Because it is NOT a sin to be hospitable to another BROTHER (Presbyterians ARE brothers, you know, even if they think it is ok to drink).
Please don't let these people continue to make you look like you are gossip chasers and quibblers!!! There are some very godly and intelligent people posting some great thoughts here!
Can't you see that you are being used? Please choose whom you will be used by wisely!!!!
NPYFIM
Ace,
Do you really want me to lay it out on this blog?
You may want to reconsider.
If I put his name out, I need to know that you are:
1. In leadership, deacon, staff
2. Some how I am going to have to know you ID?
Karen,
LOL...no I wouldn't do that to you.
Karen,
I would love to be there, but as my name implies I'll be on the road as of Tomorrow. I'll have my laptop to keep up with the blog.If you get some answers post them here so I and others who are away,can keep up.
To all,
Let's save the alcohol question for Sunday morning perhaps?
Ace,
I know it's not our policy at BBC for BBc staff to purchase alcohol for anyone for any reason, this I know.
I tried to get with the staff person, but he keep putting me off. I believe the Church needs to kno.
I believe it is a bad witness for a BBC Staff to do such?
I had to explain to my children.
proverbs,
lay it out - it's already out there. I can't say anymore because I've broken a confidence.
Ace,
Are you a Deacon active or inactive?
Karen,
Who told you as this is important?
Proverbs,
Do you really want me to lay it out on this blog?
No, not really...
I tried to get with the staff person, but he keep putting me off. I believe the Church needs to kno.
Go to the person directly about that staff person. Their supervisor..the person they report to if you feel you need to talk to someone about the issue.
cJesus,
Ace do you know of this?
I have no idea what this person is talking about...sorry! If I knew, I would answer your question...
Ace said..
Go to the person directly about that staff person. Their supervisor..the person they report to if you feel you need to talk to someone about the issue.
Ace,
Are you a deacon?
Are you saying if he keeps putting you off to go to his boss?
proverbs,
please email me. Thanks, Karen
I am not beliveing what I am reading. A past Bellevue staff person says it`s no problem if Bellvue ministers purchase alcohol.
OK then, it this is ok, then I was taught wrong under Dr. Rogers and I am just not willing to believe that he would lead me astray.
I hope some of you will see that this is a BIG ISSUE and every bit as big as a lying.
Every now and then a gay person stops over to speak to me but I wouldn`t offer him a date with my son so I can not and will not agree that just because I have a friend who drinks, I should buy them alcohol.
Ace,
I need to hear from you??
WOW. PLEASE don't put words in my mouth. I never said it was ok for a staff person to buy alcohol for someone else.
The staff guidelines specifically forbid it during any type of fellowship gathering or business dinner, etc.
I never said it was ok, but these are all ALLEGATIONS to begin with!
And judging from your words, I doubt you have a gay friend or one who would drink at all.
Please email me if you want to take this further. And please don't put words in my mouth. Thanks.
Ace,
Ok, I guess I will go public with this as you will not answer.
pastor said...
NASS,
You are a rock star. You are enjoying the attention you are recieving, for the first time in your life you did something that created a cultic following.
And you are...?
Matt 12:36 you will answer to, for instigating this format, and the occassional careless words you write.
Interesting that you would bill yourself as a "pastor," since those of use who've only preached a handful of sermons understand how to handle Scripture better than you have in this reference.
Matthew 12:36 refers to lazy, insubstantial communication; Nass has never demonstrated either of those traits, so appealing to that Bible verse is very, very poor form.
The world of blogging will watch, and examine themselves.
"The world of blogging"? In case you haven't noticed, this isn't particularly a "blog," but more of a gathering place.
Here is the test of what I am saying is true, if this is just my imagination, non of this will come true in the near future, if this is of the Holy Spirit, take heed.
You mean you're not sure? Fascinating. When God's interested in communicating a message to me, I'm lead-pipe certain it's Him. Why are you unsure?
1. You will lose big time on an investment.
Nice to know that the Holy Spirit speaks in the vernacular.
And if Nass doesn't have any investments, what then? Oh, I know... she's going to invest in something in the future, then "lose big time."
Or perhaps she'll purchase ("invest in") one of those really large wall clocks, then misplace it? At that point, she will have "lost big time." Get it?
2. Your job will be in jeopardy
It's 2006. Whose job isn't in jeopardy these days?
But maybe you mean she'll get a job working for Alex Trebek? That way, she'd have a job in Jeopardy!, right?
3. Family situations will arise
The specificity is dazzling.
4. Severe health situation will arise
Isn't that called "getting older"?
Beware. I would walk around in fear, and degrade or delete this post so you will feel better.
If anyone's entitled to entertain a spirit of fear, it would be that individual who purposefully attempts to make God the Holy Spirit, the third Person of the Trinity, sound like a third-rate dial-a-psychic.
Who's having an off day.
To the rest of you, watch NASS's life and take heed.
I'd much rather watch yours. Who are you, again?
--Mike
If someone will get BBC to give us our Church's policy on staff purchasing alcohol for others, I will go forward.
This needs to be done by late Saturday in time for the CC meeting.
I do not want to call or I may give my position away.
I can not think of one good reason this should ever happened.
The staff person should have made then purchase their own alcohol even if it was family. In my opinion, a famiy member should understand that you work for the Church and represent the Church.
Another coffee spitting moment: Mike Bratton defends NASS! :)
Mike, you rule!
Karen
Karen,
How did you find out? Only 1 other person knows?
Proverbs,
Thank you for saying that. Just seeing someone drinking at a dinner with a staffer doesn't mean they purchased anything.
I will find the staff position on dinners/meals/alcohol and try to get it posted if someone else doesn't first. It is public domain.
proverbs,
email me and I'll tell you
Never put your faith in men! said...
Even if this "minister" DID buy alcohol for someone else, and he didn't partake of himself,
npyfim these are your words
why are you judging him?
npyfim these are your words
Did he use a church credit card? B
npyfim these are your words
ecause it is NOT a sin to be hospitable to another BROTHER (Presbyterians ARE brothers, you know, even if they think it is ok to drink).
npyfim these are your words
I rest my case unless you wrote something you may not have meant to.
I am not sure you read all the post. We have had four different posters to bring this up and two of the four say they have proof. At least one who confirmed it goes by their real name and I believe her.
I hope you understand why I have strong feelings about ministers purchasing alcohol.
It is WRONG whether they drank it or not. It is wrong if they used cash, personal credit card, or someone else`s credit card. It is wrong in the church that Dr. Rogers and I were part of but I don`t know if it is WRONG at Bellevue anymore.
LOL..Mike you've outdone yourself!!
Never put your faith in men! said...
Proverbs,
Thank you for saying that. Just seeing someone drinking at a dinner with a staffer doesn't mean they purchased anything.
I will find the staff position on dinners/meals/alcohol and try to get it posted if someone else doesn't first. It is public domain.
10:29 PM, December 01, 2006
Never put your faith in men,
Thanks for your concernc. There are eyewitnesses to everything mentioned. Even who paid for it.
There are no unanswered questioned here.
Never put your faith in men! said...
Even if this "minister" DID buy alcohol for someone else, and he didn't partake of himself, why are you judging him? Did he use a church credit card? Because it is NOT a sin to be hospitable to another BROTHER
my response.
Neverput,
Please reconsider this statement.After this person receives the hospitality of a drink and then gets on the road,and kills someone and at the same time destroys a family.Who is responsible?
Sorry but If you buy a anyone a drink YOU are not only endangering their life but also innocent people.Take my word I have seen so many times what happens when people drink socially then drive.The Baptist Church of my youth would never allow this,maybe I'm naive, but if you were a staffer at Bellevue Baptist and have this view Ican't help but wonder how many others share this view?
Well folks I said earlier that I felt something was wrong at church I really pray that this attitude is not one of the problems.
Proverbs said...
Karen,
How did you find out? Only 1 other person knows?
Proverbs
Not so! This is not the first time this has come up on the blog.
One night two posters came on and were talked very ugly about and called trolls when now we see they were not. I wish someone would apologize to them.
One of them had proof they said. The blogger name was Theophylus.
The other poster was Crunch who came on earlier today and talked about being called a troll but said it wasn`t true.
Then tonight we have you and one other poster with the same story. You say you have proof.
And might I point out that who knows who saw the minister at the restaurant buying alcohol!!!!!
For all we know there were other members of the church there that none of your four know anything about!
Trucker,
Did you read my post? I said that i cannot imagine anyone on staff buying alcohol for anyone. I remember being on staff and seeing friends out, who were having a drink, and I would make them meet me in the lobby somewhere so people would not see me with them, because of staff policy.
And if the staffer/minister was buying enough alcohol for the person to get drunk and kill someone on the way home (as you have claimed) then he should be fired on the spot.
I was just trying to say that this blog has been derailed again from the track it was on, which was getting people talking about Sunday's meeting.
I am sorry my words came off the wrong way, to all. I do know the serious implications of such a charge but no matter who says they saw it, please let it be verified before condeming anyone!
And, for the record, the fulness of my tenure was under Dr. Rogers, and I don't remember as issue of alcohol ever coming up. We were reminded every so often of the seriousness of such a charge, to keep ourselves unspotted in public.
Hope I have made some more sense?
D.C. is David Coombs. He and his wife were seen at Nick and Jim's with a party of 7 on Wednesday night before Thanksgiving by a BBC member. If you call David Coombs, he will verify this story. An unknown lady was drinking wine at the table. David Coombs paid for the wine. David Coombs was not drinking. After the party left, verification was made with the restaurant. This is a fact and will be addressed hopefully at the next CC meeting. Bellevue Baptist Church has always stood against drinking. No minister of Bellevue has ever been allowed to purchase wine or any other alcoholic drink to my knowledge.
What is David Coombs credentials for becoming the Co-Associate Pastor? Is Mark Dougharty leaving? Has David Coombs been to seminary? Has David Coombs been voted on by the church? I guess I missed that one.
Who is that Masked Man who so ably and adroitly defended that nass person .I guess you sent the pastor to the pasture with a headach.
Well Done
Karen,
How do you know?
Is David Coombs the one who was suppose to be coming to help us solve all the issue with the leadership at Bellevue?
Is he not also part of the Mid America Baptist Seminary planning committee?
Looks like there are leaks all over the place. Is anything safe anymore?
Proverbs said...
Looks like there are leaks all over the place. Is anything safe anymore?
NO but then again transparency is a good thing.
Ray Saba's letter today says it all.
offfline again
Don`t forget to apologize to those trolls who weren`t trolls.
proverbs,
I heard it first on the blog the other night from crush and the other guy - I thought they were trying to start something.
Then I went to someone I know from the blog with the story and they confirmed it for me.
I betrayed that person's confidence tonight by saying anything about it and now I feel terrible. You know who you are and I am so sorry!
Karen
neverput said.
And if the staffer/minister was buying enough alcohol for the person to get drunk and kill someone on the way home (as you have claimed) then he should be fired on the spot.
My response,
Now I am confused, In your first post you said it was ok to buy a person a drink to be hospitible.
and now you respond by adding buying enough to get the person drunk.
I will tell you in no uncertain terms that it is always wrong to buy anyone even a single drink. I don't care if you are the pastor or a lay person.And no one an ever convince me that one drink will not impair your driving ability, I have personally witnessed too much ever believe that fallicy.
Sorry if I'm getting emotional here but this is a very personal issue with me.
HealingBalm said...
offfline again
Don`t forget to apologize to those trolls who weren`t trolls.
11:05 PM, December 01, 2006
You're right about that - but you have to admit they were not forth coming with the information and it got frustrating.
Karen,
Come on, let it out, let's be transparent. That's what we've been talking about all along.
Let me make one thing clear,I never said who the staff person was and may not now!
proverbs,
You're right - you didn't give up the name. SWTT did. The talk about a staff member (whoever said that) with the initials DC brought up David Coombs.
Trucker,
While I could also use personal experience to engage my discussion with you (I had an accident in 1993 when an 18-wheeler ran a stop sign and hit me and my family, and yes, the driver was drinking) - you win on this subject.
I am OPPOSED to alcohol as much as anyone else. I never meant to say that it was ok for a minister to buy alcohol for anyone. I never meant to sound like it was ok for a staffer to buy alcohol for anyone else.
But, seeing how you will keep taking one of two of my sentences out of context and making a conclusive thought out of them - then I bow to you and say that you win.
I now know why more people are silent on this blog. Can't say that I blame them.
Sunday morning should be a lot of fun, yeah?
Come on Karen, I know who told you . What happened to the secret handshake or is that just in theory?
Regarding the alcohol issue... If this story is true, then I think D.C. will be disciplined in some way, shape or form.
If you've heard Gaines preach in the past, you will know that he wouldn't tolerate something like this.
proverbs,
Yup I screwed up and now I have to fix it. What do you suggest?
Proverbs,
Come on Karen, I know who told you.
And it matters who told Karen this...why? You need to respect Karen's decision not to publicly post the name of her friend.
Karen,
Yup I screwed up and now I have to fix it. What do you suggest?
Be honest and sincere. Let the person know you made a mistake and wish to be forgived...would they be willing to forgive you?
Ace,
There you are, as I understand you had to call someone at BBC before answering.
In your opinion, what should I do with this information as I have tried to contact him and he puts me off?
Again, are you a deacon, staff or former?
mike bratton wrote:
"Matthew 12:36 refers to lazy, insubstantial communication; Nass has never demonstrated either of those traits, so appealing to that Bible verse is very, very poor form."
"If anyone's entitled to entertain a spirit of fear, it would be that individual who purposefully attempts to make God the Holy Spirit, the third Person of the Trinity, sound like a third-rate dial-a-psychic."
Well, as I live and breathe! (For the time being at least.) Mike Bratton comes to my defense? Thank you, Mike.
You may have been directing your remarks at someone we all know though. But... thank you. That was funny.
NASS
whynotask said...
I think the administration at BBC is coming to realize they haven't seen leaks like this since Noah built his boat.
11:23 PM, December 01, 2006
truckers response
Maybe the church leaders need to have fewer millionairs and more plumbers in the inner circle
Proberbs,
There you are, as I understand you had to call someone at BBC before answering.
No, I haven't made any phone calls recently. I have a life other than constantly refreshing this website.
In your opinion, what should I do with this information as I have tried to contact him and he puts me off?
How have you tried contacting him? (phone, in person) - How is he putting you off? Is he ignoring the issue and walking away? Did he admit his actions were right/wrong? Did you approach him in a loving way or by critizing him immediately?
Karen,
I believe ypi know who I am. Just e-mail me with the name and we can do the secret handshake again.
Really, it's only fair.
Thanks
fallethntheditch wrote:
"I was there last Sunday and was one of the first ten people thru the door.when My former Sunday school teacher Richard Emerson came in he shook hands with some of the men on the Committee.Then one of the Committee members would not rise to shake hands.This man had on a name tag it read "David Coombs"....Then Mr.Coombs said to Richard Emerson with a cold stare:"Are you running for politcal office?"With a very belittling tone."
I propose we get Richard Emerson to ask David Coombs a question Sunday.
NASS
ACE,
Why wont you answer this for the fourth time?
Are you a current or former staff, deacon?
1 TIMOTHY 3
2: A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3: Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous.
4: One that ruleth well his own house having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5: For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?
6: Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7: Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
proverbs,
ok, you're freaking me out a little - email me; I don't have your email address.
NASS,
I understand Richard Emerson is visiting GBC. I hope this help you.
I propose we get Richard Emerson to ask David Coombs a question Sunday.
NASS
11:30 PM, December 01, 2006
What a great idea I love it.To bad for me I can't be there to see it.If this happens please post it so I can enjoy the moment.
He was at BBC Sunday.
headoutofthesand,
I did ask ace in an email what to do in this situation. It's okay with me that he answered me. Thanks!
Karen
headoutofthesand,
You must have thought she was talking to you...
What a shame it would be if I try to help my sister-in-Christ with a situation she's dealing with.
Thanks, Karen...
Ace said, "If you've heard Gaines preach in the past, you will know that he wouldn't tolerate something like this."
I know what Ace meant and I am not picking on him at all. However, his statement bothers me. Either drinking is wrong or it is not. A pastor's view is not determinative of any moral issue. Scripture is the guide, not church policy or whether a pastor will tolerate a particular behavior.
Also, implicit in that statement is the idea the pastor will be the one to do something about a staff member drinking. Our pastor has a history of acting unilaterally. Many of the problems he created for himself at West Jackson resulted from unilateral decision making. If a man is to be disciplined, it must go through proper channels. If there are no proper channels, then those channels must be created immediately.
headoutofthesand said...
ace,
If Karen consents to your input, then I'll stay out of it.
But, if I did wear a hat, should I prepare to eat it?
I didn't think so...
11:49 PM, December 01, 2006
I did ask for his input in an email and he continued here - I'm fine with it. Don't worry about eating anything - I think I've got a big enough foot in my mouth for everyone right now.
WestTN,
A pastor's view is not determinative of any moral issue. Scripture is the guide, not church policy or whether a pastor will tolerate a particular behavior.
What's there to disagree with my original statement, then? I never said Gaines based his views on drinking on moral issues...nor did I specify that he did it on Biblical guidance....so there really is nothing to disagree with your first part of your post. Unless I'm misunderstanding you? If that's the case, please clarify what you mean...
Also, implicit in that statement is the idea the pastor will be the one to do something about a staff member drinking.
Yes, but would Gaines not be the one to initiate action/discipline upon D.C.? I believe it would be his call...
HeadOutOfTheSand,
But, if I did wear a hat, should I prepare to eat it?
I didn't think so...
You don't *think* so...but you really don't know, do you? :) With all due respect, my age shouldn't be the issue here....
WTB,
Good points. That's a problem right now..not just at BBC..no structured means to employ church discipline, and it creates chaos.
Hi Karen,
I was informed about this situation before you mentioned a word on the blog. You did not give away any state secrets, so please don't sweat the saga of the winebibbing baptist any longer.
How many people were aware of this issues before tonight?
For me, this is pretty sad, is there nothing in confidence any more?
Does anyone understand , when something is is confidence, it should stay there?
Proverbs, I am unsure of your identity. Do we know each other?
I learned of this in a most providential manner. No confidences were broken where I am concerned.
I learned of this in a most providential manner
OH....
Folks we have to make up our minds...do we want transparency or secrecy? If there's info you have that you wouldn't want to reach anyone except the party/parties involved..keep it to yourself and take it to those parties. When we come on here and start alluding to stuff like this and trading code-like messages back and forth...someone is going to inevitably start pressing for more info...not trying to be disagreeable here..just something to think about.
Allofgrace,
Weeks ago someone suggested to me that we employ church discipline on Mark Sharpe. Is there anything more capricious than that? I doubt our church has practiced church discipline since mothers started giving credence to Dr. Spock's don't-beat-your-baby movement, if not long before that. For anyone to believe we should suddenly implement discipline on Mark Sharpe was shocking to me.
If questioning the pastor is an ecclesiastical crime, then the church discipline line at Bellevue will be mighty long.
folks,
This day has opened my eyes.I knew that something was wrong at my church.After reading the web page and blog for most of this day, I realize that there are huge problems at Bellevue.I know how to solve all these problems but that would mean that the Pastor and leadership would have to be honest and open, and frankly there is too much pride and arrogance for that to happen.
Karen, don't feel bad for telling this news.It needed to be brought out.There is too much that is hidden from us.We have a moral obligation to tell others when we know of unethical,immoral,or illegal behavor ,and this is so contrary to the teachings of God.Our moral obligations supercedes any promise we make to another person.If my best friend told me in confidence that his pastor was a shoplifter I would be compeled to report that news to the proper authorities.
Good night all
cjesusnme,
I'm not ganging up on Karen at all. I've been guilty of betraying a confidence before...and it appears this was common knowledge to more folks than just Karen and her source..I'm just trying to make a point that we should be careful not to say things until they're ready to be fully disclosed..then bring it forward with all the facts.
WTB,
Amen..we need to get the right structure in place to handle these matters rightly..not handed down from the "king".
allofgrace said...
cjesusnme,
I'm not ganging up on Karen at all. I've been guilty of betraying a confidence before...and it appears this was common knowledge to more folks than just Karen and her source..I'm just trying to make a point that we should be careful not to say things until they're ready to be fully disclosed..then bring it forward with all the facts.
Allofgrace,
You're right - I never should have betrayed the confidence. Proverbs, if you are my friend or someone that knows my friend, I'm so sorry. I'll talk to you more about it in person if you'll let me know for sure who you are.
Trucker,
thanks for your words.
Karen,
Don't add to your worries or stress on my account...I'm not very thin-skinned..I'm sure your friend will forgive you...and like I said..it's obviously common knowledge to more folks too..we've all had a long week, and I know this is wearing on us all..just know neither you or cjesusnme have offended me or hurt my feelings. Love and blessings to you both.
going to bed....
Karen and Everybody else,
How 'bout I sing a 7-11 song to lift everbody's spirits.
Seven words, Eleven times.
Scripturaly dead, morally blind.
opps.... eight words
but still quite uplifting wouldn't you agree.
tim,
Or we could just sing Kumbaya. Everybody knows that one.
G'night, everybody.
NASS
LOL..Tim you crack me up sometimes buddy.
I'm off to bed...I've been running on fumes all day (sorry about that allforgrace!)
WTB,
Whatever it is you're sorry for..it's forgiven..nite all.
Allofgrace..sorry for the late night!
So now we are down to making judgment calls on whether a person paying the dining bill has the responsibility to scrutinize the dining choices of all guests. Is this going to be one of those WWJD task missions? A poster on this blog claims that David Coombs paid a check for his guests at Jim and Nick’s BBQ. It is said that one guest had ordered wine. So have none of us been in this situation before? Points to consider:
1. What if this had been a family gathering and one of your adult children brought a guest that orders an alcoholic beverage. Would you chastise the guest or embarrass the guest by announcing to all the ‘sin’ of their ways? What if this was a guest whose church membership was of a faith that had no issues with wine? What if this was an unsaved person seeking the refuge of a family that had reached out to them?
2. What if this was a dinner associated with your business and your position in the company (David was the CFO) made you the person expected to pay the bill. Are you not paying on the behalf on your company as a representative? I know that David was in a position which required him in the past to entertain foreign guest. So do we embarrass those people at dinner by educating them as to our personal policy on alcoholic beverages?
I dare say that if you took an honest survey of our church membership that you would find that there are many differing positions on the use of alcoholic beverages. I personally entertain clients and customers as a representative of my company. While I do not personally have an alcoholic beverage I do have some guests both professing Christians and non-Christians who order alcohol in some form at dinner. I am expected to pay for the dinner with funds provided me by my company. Most of the time there is not another employee who is present to which I could pass the responsibility. So should I just change my career and get into another profession due to this quarterly responsibility? If I’m a truck driver should I refuse a load if it contains alcoholic beverages? Should I not shop at stores which sell alcoholic beverages? By the way in the late 60’s this was the direction of many Baptist churches.
Folks, I think that we spend an inordinate amount of time witch hunting? I’ve personally known David Coombs for a number of years. He is not without sin, surprise, surprise, but he has a love for Jesus and is a man of great integrity. In regards to the poster who mentioned his comments to Richard Emerson. David probably doesn’t have the most charismatic personality in the world (apologies to David). He is known to utilize a sense of ‘dry wit’ to show humor in a situation. I can’t speak for David, but knowing him, this appears to be some of David’s ‘dry wit’ in action.
The bottom line is that we are taking isolated situations that we do not have the full facts and making some major leaps of faith. The Bible mentions something about those without sin casting the first stone…..
WTB,
Man, don't worry about that. I enjoyed the visit.
just my opinion,
It's a sad day when we stop standing for the things we believe in. All kinds of rationale can be put on anything. I believe you are probably one of the inner circle for sure. Anything Steve Gaines or anyone else does from here on out will be defended no matter what. We are seeing it play out over and over. It reminds me of the Clinton days. Nothing that man (or those close to him) did could shake people that were his followers.
David Coomvs has chosen to be a leader at Bellevue. He allowed himself to become a leader in the Bellevue Baptit Deacons. He allowed himself to be put on the most powerful committees at Bellevue Baptist Church. He allowed himself to be the new co-associate pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church. I hoped that David Coombs would have more respect for Bellevue Baptist Church than this.
What kind of judgement was used for David Coombs to go to a restaurant less than a mile from Bellevue Baptist Church and be seen doing this? As a member of Bellevue Baptist Church, I'm offended greatly. Just because you aren't, I am not speaking for you.
David Coombs or any other staff member to be out buying drinks for people on Germantown Parkway will cause others to stumble. Perhaps not you, but others, yes.
I want my church to have higher standards than this.
What if he had a family member or a boss that liked to go to Hooters? I guess you would say it would be ok to go there as well. This attitude is exactly what is happening to the church. We are looking more and more like the world and less and less like Christ.
I don't care if you agree with me. It makes no difference to me. I already know where a lot of our lay leaders line up on social drinking and it makes me sick.
I pray that God takes us through the fire on this. Enough is enough and I'm not going to take it any longer. Members, it's time to stand up and be heard. We need to demand that Steve Gaines address the church tomorrow on this issue in both services in the am and the evening service.
This is always going to be a more sensitive subject for some than others. Paul gives instructions in 1Cor. chapters 8 & 10, on how to deal with these types of situations. For some, alcohol is a great evil..for others, they feel they have liberty of conscience in the matter. The point is, we should be careful not to bruise the conscience of either. That's the crux of Paul's instructions. Just my 2 cents worth.
Brothers and sisters of Bellevue:
God favors reconciliation over sacrifice. Matt. 5:23-25 I have offered to counsel BBC on ways to work through this conflict. At least one post mentioned peacemakers. If you don't contact me or peacemakers, PLEASE contact someone with training and experience in biblical dispute resolution. Otherwise the un-addressed (if that is a word) grievances will continue to escalate into a full-fledged dispute.
Civil courts are not the answer (1 cor. 6:1ff); they lack jurisdiction over the conflict itself (which is spiritual). No church should engage in adversarial litigation (1 Pet. 5:8 - "Beware your adversary, the devil...."). A peacemaker from outside BBC could facilitate reconciliation: which is vertical (man and God) and horizontal (man to man). 2 Cor. 5:18ff. Christ reconciled us to God; we are given the ministry and message of reconciliation as Christ's ambassadors.
Please contact a peacemaker so that BBC can focus ahead.
In His service,
michael@wmapeace.com
just my opinion and ilovebbc,
You guys/gals made some good points and hopefully the scenarios that you described are the case.
Folks,
I have to agree that a lot of energy was exherted reasoning on this issue. I hate to say that because I know that there are antagonist on the blog that will be happy to hear it. There are many people that read the blog without ever commenting. A lot of people may come one time and read the past dozen or so post and by concentrating our effort on this particular item it may create a strong case against our credibility.
This is currently an issue that we do not have all of the facts on and my opinion is that we need to conentrate on issues that are irrefutable. These are the issues that need to be addressed over and over again until they are resolved.
Just my thoughts that I wanted to pass along.
P.S.
If I missed something along the way that gives definitive proof to this issue than disregard my prior post.
Tim,
Good points. Let's try not to get sidetracked on issues not fully in evidence yet, so we don't miss the central issues.
I have not posted frequently but I have read most everything posted since the paper printer the articles in the Commercial Appeal. I wanted to respond to the questions of who I am or more specifically to am I a member of the inner circle. I have been a member of Bellevue for 17 years. I have never been a deacon because I never wanted to be in that spotlight. I’ve known too many people in Memphis that have been glad to point out someone involved in sin and glory in the fact that “he’s a deacon at Bellevue”. I do not teach a Sunday school class but am actively involved in one. I am not a member of the inner circle by any means. I’ve never meant Steve Gaines in person. I do know members of the Communication Committee personally: David Coombs, John Crockett, and Jim Angel, Chuck Taylor, Steve Tucker, Wayne Vander Steeg, Jeff Arnold, and Brian Miller. I know these men to be of high morals, a love for Jesus, and men of integrity.
If you go back through my previous posts (now who’s got that much time) you will find that I have many of the same concerns as most posters. I first pointed out that my biggest concern was how this situation has been handled. After the September 24th service, I was disappointed in how Chuck Taylor and the other men serviced up the information. The most disappointment was how our pastor came across disingenuous and less than truthful especially with the “itty bitty” fence comment. The next day service at Union City only heightened my concerns about Bros. Steve’s spirit of attitude toward Bellevue Church. His sermons and comments from the pulpit seem to me to be more in positioning his self to be right rather than doing right. I took Derrick Calcoate up on his offer to meet to discuss the situation. I came away with a resolve in my mind that I would give our leadership an opportunity to help resolve and reconcile this situation. The Communication Committee was a step in that direction. For me it wasn’t the steak dinner, or the other expenses, but it was the realization that our church did not have proper oversight by the deacons which we elect.
My previous experience in Baptist Churches were that the deacons were involved the approval of all things financial. This way the congregation felt that we had a somewhat representative body representing the membership. When these issues erupted it became apparent that our deacon body only serves to serve. We are a committee run church whereby the committee members are appointed not elected. This has caused me concern. Even though I know many of these men and trust them, I would be more comfortable to know that the membership has more responsibility in their election. This is something that regularly business meetings would work toward resolving.
I would just ask that we look at the specific things which can be changed to allow for Bellevue to continue serving and worshiping our Lord and Savior. For me personally I would like to see more oversight with our committees and pastor staff decisions. I would like the deacons to have more power in these matters. I want to see more openness in the business side of our church by having quarterly business meetings on a Wednesday evening. My final desire is that our leadership takes a proactive role in reconciliation to our membership rather than asking those with concerns to leave. I believe that this has to begin with our Sheppard, Bro. Steve Gaines.
So no I am not a Sheppard, member of the inner circle, a deacon or Sunday school teacher. I am just one of the walking wounded, concerned, souls within the Body we call Bellevue. May we all act upon Christ’s commandment to love one another!
Spiritual leaders are held to a higher standard. They cannot be perfect (none of us can) but they are to be blameless- keeping known sin confessed and out of their lives. The current discussion is exactly why church leaders shouldn't drink or dine with those who do (family members, friends, etc.)- there is a possibility for loss of testimony.
I know we didn't vote on Mr. Coombs, and I also understand that he is unfamiliar with ministry, coming from a secular vocation where wining and dining associates or clients is not always a problem. Hopefully our new "minister" will learn from this mistake.
Check out the long post by "beenthere" in the purpose driven thread posted 12-1-06 at 3:52pm if you have time.
What if.....
The waitress was a BBC member?
What if she is visiting BBC?
What if she (waitress) sees David Coombs on the platform at BBC one Sunday?
What would the waitress Think?
Here is a man who purchased alcohol for someone, and now has been seen at BBC by the waitress that served him.
One must always consider his testimony. David, as our Associate Pastor know better than that and should be wise enough to know how to handle that situation.
Again, it looks like we have more staff that will say it was a miskake of the mind, not the heart.
Someone on this blog mentioned that David C. does not speak very well and is very dry wit.
Somebody tell the Church that a good personality and being friendly is a part of the job.
Have we voted on him yet?
Let's be careful not to make personality the issue..otherwise we'd have to discount Jonah, Peter, and probably a few others that God called into his service..neither of these men mentioned had personalities that would necessarily make someone want to be their best bud.
Karen, WTB, allofgrace, swtt, cjesusinme,tim, and all:
(not telling you something you don't already know)
When you back away and look at the big picture, it becomes a little more clear. Our discontent begin with (1)seeing people we loved and respected being mistreated (2) questions about the church's financial integrity and lack of transparency.
In the process of trying to resolve the first issues more issues have oome to light. The more layers we have peeled back, the more moral and spiritual decay we have found. We have uncovered:
(3)a total lack of checks and balances in church government (4) Warrenism with its elder rule and personality testing (5) apathy or misplaced loyalty in lay leadership (6) conflict of interest and nepotism in all areas of leadership (7) poor stewardship (8) using of church facilities for personal profit ei. holyland trips
We have experienced (9) disrespect for churchmembers from the pulpit (10) lies from the pulpit and lay leadership (11) lack of scriptural integrity ei. requiring tithes, personality testing, oaths, loyalty agreements and more (12) threats from lay leadership and pulpit
Now, we find ourselves debating the very core beliefs that our church has held for almost a century. Bellevue Baptist, home of RG Lee, Ramsey Pollard, and Adrian Rogers.
The debate on this thread is not a dispute that is moving into hysteria. It is not a dispute that can be resolved by a peacemaker. We need help from THE PEACEMAKER.
I am inviting him to our meeting!
Correction: I am inviting Him to our meeting!
You know if David Coombs had not paid for the alcohol, what a testimony that would have been.
I believe we all wish that was the story. How our new Associate Pastor visited with friends or family and bought their dinner.
But he would not to purchase their alcohol for them. If they know David, I'm sure family or friends would understand.
By the way, his family was at the table as I think that was stated as a fact here.
Wow..what a story that could "have been" great to blog. Tooo late for that headline.
That would be the man I would want to follow.
Remember the story SG told us months ago about the young people he witnessed to at the coffee house. How he bought their meal and witnessed to them. Would SG have also bought thir alcohol if it were on the ticket?
I would hope not...
What saddens me most about this is that there seems to be no wrong in all these actions we have questiond.
1-The Pastor outright lies to the entire congreation about the "little bitty fence" Ace ,Hisservent-1,Decon Calote defend these lis by playing games with semantics and excusing our pastor lying to the congreation.
2-The FUMC issue- The church gives money to another church that is in direct opposition to the doctrines and long held principiles of this church.
Along comes Ace,hisservent-1 Mike bratton ans Decon Calote the defend this ,as just a helping hand,and dismissed all concerns by accusing those of who question this as being hatefull,nitpicking ect,
3-now the issue of a new or soon to be Assoc.Pastor buying a drink for someone-and again this act is defended by dramadramadrama,JMO and ilove,
it is now OK in their minds for officers of Bellevue Baptist Church to buy alcholic drinks because we don't want to offend.
I really wonder just what these people consider objectional,behavoir.What will it take before these defenders of Steve Gaines and crew realize that WE as a church no longer take stands on moral issues.
I have always avoided the company Christmas party because of the drinking,refused to give to United Way because of it's support of abortions BTW I found out about UW from Bellevue when we were asked to take a stand by not giving to that group.What will my coworkers say to me now when I don't show up at the Christmas party ? Don't answer I know because several are keeping up with "the country club in Cordova" their words not mine.Thank you Steve Gaines ace, Decon Calcote and others who have made a mockery of the moral stands that this church has taken in the past.
What has happened to our church?
One last comment.
Deacon Calote where are you?
Just before Thanksgiving you promised to check into the FUMC issue , the next day Life Choices spoke out , and the church leadership admitted it happened. I have yet to see you keep your promise to address this issue.OR CAN WE ASSUME THAT BY YOUR SILENCE THAT YOU SUPPORTED THIS.
confused,
I believe that the assumption would be more clearly stated to say that if Deacon Calcoate did not defend the donation to FUMC then he has been silenced. This has been an on going trend for months now. Also, should he happen to comment on the blog concerning his objection to this donation then do not confuse his blog comments to be an indication that he has made any objections in meetings of the deacons.
To those that attended last week,
I was unable to be there last week but it is my understanding that Harry Smith made the comment to the effect when asked about the $25,000 donation to FUMC that "we saw a person on the side of the road and we helped them." I am curious to know if this is true.
Thanks Tim for deciphering all this Bellevue speak.
Maybe with practice I might learn to decipher the code words from the pulpit,and defenders of all this.I'm just a yes or no person,forget the shades of gray.
Hello All,
To those of you who knew what went on last night, I want you to know I have reconcilled with my friend and the matter between us has been put to rest. Proverb, I'm still confused as to your identity and why you never emailed me so I could confirm who you are. But, no big deal. Today is a new day and I have a clear conscience.
Praise the Lord from whom all blessing flow!
Karen
Karen,
Glad to hear it.."morning by morning new mercies I see.."
Sunday, Dec 3rd at 9:30, Rev Paul Williams is leading a prayer walk thru the church. Meet him at the globe in the West Foyer if you would like to participate. Also, the opportunity always exists to pray at the altar at the 9:30 and 11:00 service as well. Our need is great and so is our God.
Just my opinion
I am the poster you are refering to.
I personally know Richard Emererson and Mark Sharpe to men of integrity.They both were my former Sunday school teachers.Dry wit is no excuse for David Coombs to belittle another preist.I am tired of the church leadership demonising these godly men.Bottom line?Showing the love of Jesus....Whether there are disputes between men or not.Is David Coombs to high up in the Sanhedrin to apoligise to Richard for his comments? We shall see.If your gonna talk the talk walk the walk.My hope is we can ehchange peaceably Sunday.Thanks for your veiws.
confused said:
Thank you Steve Gaines ace, Decon Calcote and others who have made a mockery of the moral stands that this church has taken in the past.
What has happened to our church?
*****
May I add, Thank you, John Caldwell, and other members of the Selection Committee who worked tirelessly to bring Steve Gaines to our church.
Thank you, Mark Daugherty, for your contributions toward silencing any discussion in our church. Thank you for your vision to help bring Bellevue's church government up to date - pastor rule.
Thank you, Communications Committee, for not embarassing
the pastor and lay leadership by answering their questions truthfully. You have shown us your heart.
And thank you church leadership for being proactive and employing the most creative techniques to solve problems - especially Mohammid Ali's "rope-a-dope". (Personally I would have preferred a Matthew 18 approach.)
Apologies to those whom I have failed to acknowledge.
Thank you because you have brought deep,dark secrets out into the light of day.
It is my understanding that tomorrow morning is to be the final CC meeting. It appears from what I understand that the CC has managed by not answering the questions that have been asked to have created more questions that they can not or will not answer. The "spin" that is being put on this, is that they have answered the all of the questions and now new ones are popping up. The truth is the same questions are being asked and they have refused to answer with the whole truth and some times with no truth at all.
The original purpose of the CC was to present the "appearance" that the leadership was actually concerned and intended to do something about the concerns of the membership. By creating this "apperance" it was believed that the congregation at large would be ignorant enought to accept NO ANSWERS as ANSWERS. They had also thought that there would be fewer than 10-20 attend any of the meetings. Since the group has continued to grow, it has become politically apparant that the attempt was unsucessful.
The point being that if tomorrow is the final day then you need to be there to voice your concerns by your presense. I can assure you of this, tomorrow will be a time to discover the truth behind the issues. We most definetly intend on getting some truthful answers, especially if this is to be the final opportunity to get them. If you really want to know the truth then you need to be there.
Fallethntheditch wrote:
Just my opinion
I am the poster you are refering to.
I personally know Richard Emererson and Mark Sharpe to men of integrity.They both were my former Sunday school teachers.Dry wit is no excuse for David Coombs to belittle another preist.I am tired of the church leadership demonising these godly men.Bottom line?Showing the love of Jesus....Whether there are disputes between men or not.Is David Coombs to high up in the Sanhedrin to apoligise to Richard for his comments? We shall see.If your gonna talk the talk walk the walk.My hope is we can ehchange peaceably Sunday.Thanks for your veiws.
12:16 PM, December 02, 2006
I am certain that if David knew that he offended Richard by his comments that he would apologize for the misunderstanding. One thing we all learn in conversation, emails and postings are that our intended words and actions do not always translate their intended tone and meaning. David has spoken with me using his dry wit and I found his attempt at humor very funny. But I could also understand that if you do not know his manner of communication that his words could be taken in the wrong vain. This may be something that David will have to watch now that he will be speaking to those who do not know his personality.
I do not know Richard or Mark personally but my friends who do, speak of their integrity and love for Jesus. As John Crockett stated in the Commercial Appeal this is more an issue of policy and procedure than one of religious misunderstandings. I believe that each side would agree on issues of our faith. We are in the mist of dealing with conflicts of leadership style and church operations. I certainly agree with your desire for a peaceful Sunday.
Has everyone called or emailed at least 5 people, inviting them to the Communications Committe meeting. If what Tim says is true (I believe it is), this is your last chance to show the CC how many Bellevue members have questions regardign how our beloved church is being run.
This is not a time for arguing; it is a time to get our questions answered truthfully and for the leasdership to realize that the time for integrity, transparancy and truth above all else is NOW!
I am so looking forward to this meeting. My attitude is not one of "us against them"; it's one of "let's all get on the same page and go forward".
Don't forget: 8:00 am - the room right behind the ERC - be there or be square! :)
Karen
Just My Opinion said...
As John Crockett stated in the Commercial Appeal this is more an issue of policy and procedure than one of religious misunderstandings. I believe that each side would agree on issues of our faith. We are in the mist of dealing with conflicts of leadership style and church operations.
Reply:
Not long ago I would have agreed with that statement. I am becoming more and more convinced that perhaps there are issues of faith. There are most definately differences of doctrine.
To address what this battle is about contrary to what many may believe. It is not about the style of music or the personalties involved. It is about serving God and God alone. It is about worshipping God and God alone. It is about being no respector of men, no matter what their financial status or political power.
The problem that we are experiencing at Bellevue, in my opinion, is that we as a congregation by and large are spiritually dead. God has allowed our failures to become evident to any that will hear and any that will see and repent. I firmly believe that God has ordained these events to bring us to a place of congregational repentance. It is also my opinion that there are those that have enough spiritual integrity to recognize and reveal the truth. The truth is not always pleasant to behold, nor is it always readily received. It does not change however according to the latest political trend. The truth is that we are currently under leadership that has consumed itself with political posturing to appease the masses and maintain their power.
Tim,
My perspective on all this has certainly changed over the months. Are we witnessing Romans 8:28?
In everything, give thanks, right? I am starting to do that.
1 Tim 6:20
There was talk of cancelling the last CC meeting, but there should be one more so the people that "need to know" will show their true colors. Last call.
The rest of the church pities some of you, you have shown nothing will stop your grumblings. All is not perfect, nor will it ever be till Christ comes back.
If you were shown every credit card statement, some would say there is another credit card not shown.
I recently went overseas and the pastors consider it a good day, if they only received a broken arm and not killed. You poor people, you have been so mistreated and insulted, life is so difficult for you.
Bottom line, you will have no effect on BBC, the more you gossip the more your fellow church members will turn on you.
Someone insulted the other 6900 members who stood and applauded, called them stupid sheep that can't see the crimes being committed. You are not reformers, nor are a guide for the blind. Your words reveal more than you can see.
Karen, did you tell them about the Christmas party you were at a few years ago, concerning the alcohol issue?
Many of you are so negative, when I wrote “Watch NASS’s life and take heed”, did you not consider the opposite could happen if NASS is truly walking in the spirit, and following the Holy Spirit directives, the following could happen,
1. Enormous gain in an investment
2. New Job Opportunities
3. Sickness healed or avoided
4. Family issues resolved
Again, I wrote that on purpose so your true colors would become evident, and show the world how you view everything from a negative perspective, and you took the bait.
The alcohol issue is great that you are debating, what this minister did. You have completely and openly, to your shame, disobeyed 1 Tim 5:19. Again, the wave of pity is turning against you. As you continue, it will be a downward spiral. There will be many more instances provided to you to speculate on and show your blatant disregard for 1Tim 5:19.
Hypocrites, you are concerned about the alcohol issue and disobeyed scripture, what about causing the little ones to stumble over gossip. No one has yet given a definition of gossip, would probably be too obvious.
Num 16:30, the Lord will right rights, and wrong wrongs.
Karen,
I've never gossiped or spread a rumor without coming back here and apoligizing for it when I found I our I was fed misinformation.
And the definition of Gossip is?
1 Tim 5:24
Tim, Confused, et. al.
If my memory serves me correctly, I told Karen I would look into the FUMC thing and get back to her. I did look into it, and found out that the church did indeed make the donation to FUMC. We discussed this issue on the phone, twice I think.
Nobody has "silenced me" except the Lord.
After much prayer and seeking of the Lord's face on this issue, I have come to the conclusion that He does not want me to debate or discuss church issues on the internet.
If anyone wants to discuss things with me, or ask questions, I am easy to find as I've put out my e.mail address many times, and now do so again.
Please don't post a question to me here, as I will not answer except via e.mail.
In His service and yours,
Derrick Calcote
dcalcote@msn.com
sounds like he reads his "horrorscope" daily
1. Enormous gain in an investment
2. New Job Opportunities
3. Sickness healed or avoided
4. Family issues resolved
Isn't fortune telling considered socercy in the bible?
Pastor,
By what authority to you grant these blessing and cursings?
Do allow me to make a statement for the record.
All of my posting here has been done under my name, and my name alone. Also I speak for myself and myself alone.
Tim
Your exactly right.Im at work but just wanted to give you a word picture real quick.Its like the Old bonanza tv show
remember how Ben Cartwright would invite folks to the ponderosa or old Freinds would show up from the past.These visitors or freinds would live on the ranch and start to do questionable activity or make comments that ran against the current of old bens values.Ben would try to dismiss his Thoughts but adam or little joe would substaniate his thoughts by their truthful accounts.Finally Ben saw the unquestionable truth was clear.The posse is out.THe Ben Cartwrights.... Family men, Godly Fathers who do not want to leave Bellevue, whose children and staff members... children of ostrazied deacons that have been hurt.Like OLd Ben Godly Fathers take a stand for truth.Godly mothers take a stand for truth!We want the truth and nothing but the truth!May the truth Prevail!Thanks Tim! See you there! HE REIGNS!
DDD
To be called a "winebibber" because of associating with sinners is an honor Jesus Himself claimed.
Next we will hear that some need to visit casinos.I can hear it now "we need to be like gamblers and drunks in order to reach out to them"
Thank you DDD for proving my earlier point that there is no low that you and others will not stoop to defend.
dramadramadrama
Jesus may have eaten with them... but He didn't pay for their liquor!
But all of this has been a distraction away from the main issues surrounding the pastor.
And I still want to know who the poster was yesterday from 4 pm forward that I dalogued with for nearly an hour who went by the handle "pastor."
The poster never denied being Gaines and issued threats, taunted the board, etc. It was NOT funny. At a minimum it was impersonation. At a maximum he gave a terrible false prophecy that deserves a response.
As to the David Coombs story, let me say this. He was at Jim and Nicks the night before Thanksgiving. He was with family members from what I could tell. David Coombs DID NOT drink any alcoholic beverages nor did his wife. The lady that did have a glass of wine was not drunk. She didn't even drive when leaving. She was with a gentleman I will assume was a husband and he drove.
David Coombs paid for some of the bill as to the wine I don't know as I didn't follow the bill as it was paid.
Please quit making assumptions and accusations if you weren't there. Let it to those of us who were there to tell the truth of the matters.
"pastor"
your posts are not funny. They reek of pride and they convey threatening implications.
You need to clarify whether or not you are Gaines. ASAP!
"pastor"
Regarding the verse you mentioned...
There are many witnesses here and they will be there (to meet the CC) at 8 am Sunday... Will you be there??
Derrick Calcote said...
Tim, Confused, et. al.
If my memory serves me correctly, I told Karen I would look into the FUMC thing and get back to her. I did look into it, and found out that the church did indeed make the donation to FUMC. We discussed this issue on the phone, twice I think.
I did not share our private conversation as I felt it wasn't necessary - Derrick has always spoken for himself.
pastor wrote:
Karen, did you tell them about the Christmas party you were at a few years ago, concerning the alcohol issue?
What are you talking about? I'm a recoving alcoholic and drug addict - delivered from those addictions by God and His grace. For you to call yourself a pastor and to try to taint my character with whatever junk you're trying to spout today, I find you despicable.
Derrick Calcote your absence and silence tell much about you. I trully believe that you are really ashamed of the FUMC issue,because you really do know how wrong it was. Yet you do not have the moral courage to stand up against the leadership.
That is my personal opion of you based on your example to this group.
Will David Coombs be issued a credit card when he comes on staff? According to the little book of FAQs, he would be able to charge meals. If his guests order a margaritta (can't spell that), would it be paid for with our tithes?
To "Pastor":
You need to clarify whether you are Pastor Gaines or not! If you are, then we will know who to attribute this "Prophecy" to if it comes to pass. If it doesn't come to pass then we will know who the false prophet is!! There is a warning for false prophets in Deut. 18.
Pastor said:
"You are a rock star. You are enjoying the attention you are recieving, for the first time in your life you did something that created a cultic following.
Matt 12:36 you will answer to, for instigating this format, and the occassional careless words you write.
The world of blogging will watch, and examine themselves.
Here is the test of what I am saying is true, if this is just my imagination, non of this will come true in the near future, if this is of the Holy Spirit, take heed.
1. You will lose big time on an investment.
2. Your job will be in jeopardy
3. Family situations will arise
4. Severe health situation will arise
Beware. I would walk around in fear, and degrade or delete this post so you will feel better.
To the rest of you, watch NASS's life and take heed."
Pastor,
I find it interesting that sandwiched between the two versese that you mentioned I Timothy 5:19 and I Timothy 6:20 are the warnings to Timothy of the heretics and false prophets. Did you post those knowingly so that we could identify you?
I Timothy 6:3-5
3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
Lets look at these verse 3. What pastor was guilty of unwholesome words in Union City?
Verse 4. What pastor has referred to members of his congregation as adversaries?
Verse 5. What pastor has fled the truth? What pastor has trusted in the rich and powerful to save his hide?
I believe that you have revealed whose you are but not who you are.
Whoever the poster is that goes by "pastor" needs to confirm or deny whether or not they are S. Gaines! YES OR NO?
"pastor"... You try to sound spiritual... but you are nothing more than a bully picking on women. Beating these sheep with a Bible... That is about as low as it gets!
Jesus sees YOU!
25+,
I would judge from the lack of knowledge of scripture and the apparant attempt to declare himself a prophet that it very well could be Steve Gaines.
However, we live in a time when the world is full of preachers that believe that they can place themselves above God.
Who does that remind you of?
25+
I trusted you slept well last night, or did you stay up till 3am because you mind was still racing about what to say to me.
Anonymity is frustrating isn’t it?
Kind of like chocolate cake, you can have too much of a good thing.
Sounds like pastor is a real "new age" guy.Hey pastor- are you sitting under your cristals?, to achive harmony with your karma?
waitress22 said...
As to the David Coombs story, let me say this. He was at Jim and Nicks the night before Thanksgiving. He was with family members from what I could tell. David Coombs DID NOT drink any alcoholic beverages nor did his wife. The lady that did have a glass of wine was not drunk. She didn't even drive when leaving. She was with a gentleman I will assume was a husband and he drove.
David Coombs paid for some of the bill as to the wine I don't know as I didn't follow the bill as it was paid.
Please quit making assumptions and accusations if you weren't there. Let it to those of us who were there to tell the truth of the matters.
1:44 PM, December 02, 2006
Waitress22,
Make no mistake, David Cooms paid for the alcohol.
Let's stick to the facts.
That is what really makes the difference.
Confused,
Thank you for taking a moment to slander me and by doing so demonstrate why I have felt the Lord's leading not to discuss church business on this site.
Karen,
A verse for you in light of the garbage that has been hurled your way.
Acts 11:9 "The voice spoke from heaven a second time, 'Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.'"
(This is a vision of the Lord given to Peter whereby he was instructed to bring the Gospel to the gentiles.)
pastor,
You do not frustrate me in the least. I already know that we are in a battle and I already know who the true enemy is. And I already know that the true enemy has chosen those to represent him.
You have been convicted by your own words not mine. Your own words have determined who you serve. Does it bother you to know that you have been identified as that serpant?
"pastor"
I slept well... If you continue impersonating Steve Gaines without apology to his sheep, then it will be settled at the judgment seat of Christ... If you are Gaines, then why are you ashamed of it? Are you S. Gaines or not? Yes or no?
I'm not a woman... and I'm not afraid of you in the least!
PASTOR -
If you are Steve Gaines, you have done your homework, sir. I haven't attended a Christmas party where alcohol was served since 2001. You wanna go there; we'll go there. I have nothing to hide, sir. If you didn't have something to hide, you'd be knocking my door today. You said last night you and I have no issues between us - you better believe, I have an issue with you now and you have an issue with me. My parents have been made aware of your veiled reference and they are with their Neighboorhood Fellowship group today - they all know what you've said about me and trust me, they don't like it.
Karen
Derrick Calcote said...
Confused,
Thank you for taking a moment to slander me and by doing so demonstrate why I have felt the Lord's leading not to discuss church business on this site.
Please drop the slander word coming from you it means little.
The real reason you quit defending these issues is because you are on the wrong side, and feel silly tying to defend things like the drink issue.
Tim and others,
Write your comments in word first and run spell check, then cut and paste in the comment box. It makes for easier reading.
Derrick,
Thank you - I've really have missed talking to you.
Karen
"pastor"
You need help... We follow an undershepherd as he follows Christ... When love is not apparent for all of the sheep, then the Good Shepherd sees it.
I think NASS aught to get the authorities to check on the identity of this poster. His comments to her were threatening.
I got it now-pastor is a new age soothsayer who inpersonates an english teacher.
Karen,
I again reiterate the negative bias on this blog.
The comment about the alcohol and Christmas party was a positive note. You have stood strong and avoided putting yourself in situations where alcohol is served. It is a testimony to the saving power of Christ, and others need to be encouraged by that.
People have a tendency to look for a demon behind every bush.
I didn't know there was a blog with so many paranoid Pharisees. All of the spirituality is kind of overwhelming. Tomorrow's worship services should be just overflowing with love and joy.
pastor,
You have no idea what you're talking about - I think you owe it me to reveal yourself as there was no positivity in your post about alcohol. Who are you and why do you care about my alcohol consumption or lack thereof? I am not a minister at Bellevue - so why are you picking on me?
"pastor"
You came on this blog with a heavy hand and now are trying to spin it. That won't wash. You are a false prophet... whoever you are... and Deut. 18 says that when a false prophet is discovered that the people don't need to fear them!
no pastor you were trying to hurt her.You are a bully and a coward.Now you tell a lie to cover your attack on a sister in Christ.Since you like to throw out biblical quotes try this one "Liars will not enter the kingdom of heaven"
Repost
To "Pastor":
You need to clarify whether you are Pastor Gaines or not! If you are, then we will know who to attribute this "Prophecy" to if it comes to pass. If it doesn't come to pass then we will know who the false prophet is!! There is a warning for false prophets in Deut. 18.
Pastor said (at 4 pm Fri/12-1):
"You are a rock star. You are enjoying the attention you are recieving, for the first time in your life you did something that created a cultic following.
Matt 12:36 you will answer to, for instigating this format, and the occassional careless words you write.
The world of blogging will watch, and examine themselves.
Here is the test of what I am saying is true, if this is just my imagination, non of this will come true in the near future, if this is of the Holy Spirit, take heed.
1. You will lose big time on an investment.
2. Your job will be in jeopardy
3. Family situations will arise
4. Severe health situation will arise
Beware. I would walk around in fear, and degrade or delete this post so you will feel better.
To the rest of you, watch NASS's life and take heed."
"pastor"
Yesterday Nehemiah showed up after your posts to taunt us... Today it's Hezekiah...
I imagine they won't like being impersonated either.
25+
There is no reason to fear me. I am absolutely amazed that any of you even reply to my comments.
Maybe the Lord is just using me and His word to bring out some of the tendencies of human nature.
Could some of the leadership along with, Mr. Smith and Mr. Tucker and Mr. Coombs say they are being picked on?
25+,
Aren't you going to ask me if I am Steve Gaines?
I'm so glad there won't be a Communications Committee at the Judgment Seat of Christ!!
Pastor,
If you have no sense of your own wretchedness then I have to wonder if you've ever really known the Lord.
pastor,
If you think what you've done here today by calling out my "human nature" then you really have fallen off the cabbage truck. I'm still waiting on your email.
Karen
Hezekiah said...
I didn't know there was a blog with so many paranoid Pharisees. All of the spirituality is kind of overwhelming. Tomorrow's worship services should be just overflowing with love and joy.
ell you know how dramadramadrama,hisservent,ace and mike bratton are but we still love them,And don't forget to include the men who run the CC mettings,and the church leadership and a few others who post here.
Hezekiah said...
25+,
Aren't you going to ask me if I am Steve Gaines?"
nah the cabbage truck left town before you came here
pseudo Hezekiah--
God knows who you are. My conscience is clear. I love all those who are here... You aren't funny.
Southern Baptist Convention Comes Out Against Alcohol
Filed under: Christianity
By Francis Beckwith (Email) @ 2:32 pm
A debate fermenting for decades has finally come to a head: messengers at the 2006 meeting of the Southern Baptist Convention “passed with about a four-fifths majority a resolution not only opposing the manufacture and consumption of alcohol but urging the exclusion of Southern Baptists who drink from election to the convention’s boards, committees and entities.
If Bellevue allows it`s ministers to buy alcoholic beverages for dinner guests under ANY CIRCUMSTANCE, then Bellevue Baptist Church might as well go ahead and open a gay wedding chapel.
How low will Bellevue go?
We will soon see.
If a person doesn’t want their comments second guessed, rebuffed, or criticized why do you post on a format open to the public? Can't you do the same thing with email and avoid anonymous criticism.
We all know the human condition, and when religion, pride and emotion come together…well you know what happens. Look at how the religious people treated Christ.
When Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, that was when the religious people set about trying to kill Him and Lazarus (John 12:10).
I’m not any better than anyone else that posts here; I am susceptible to all kinds of sins as well. Praise God, we even have the opportunity to live in a country where we are free to discuss these issue openly.
"pastor"
So far you have threatened the moderator, given a false prophecy, and revealed personal, confidential information about one of the posters here that probably took some unethical digging to find out... Your kind of posts are the kind that you should be preaching about.
pastor,
unfortunately we can not communicate as a group via e-mail. If the church had done the right thing in the first place then this blog would have never had reason to exist.
I quite frankly care less who you are. I am certain of one thing, you are on no importance in these issues.
confused said...
"no pastor you were trying to hurt her.You are a bully and a coward.Now you tell a lie to cover your attack on a sister in Christ.Since you like to throw out biblical quotes try this one "Liars will not enter the kingdom of heaven"
I agree, and you may add Proverbs 28
13.
pastor said...
If a person doesn’t want their comments second guessed, rebuffed, or criticized why do you post on a format open to the public? Can't you do the same thing with email and avoid anonymous criticism.
Okay, so I'm still waiting for your email - make sure it's not anonymous.
Some of the congregation has awakened to the reality that our church is elder ruled by a close knit group of men who manage to be appointed to key positions year after year. The congregation needs to be awakened to this. I agree with Bin Wonderin:
We need:
1. An apology to the congregation for mocking us at Union City. After all, some of us didn't fall off the cabbage truck yesterday!
2. An admission the cheerleader tickets are not a legit moving expense and reimbursement to BBC.
3. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
4. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else
5. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. Transcripts on the web within a week
**The current bylaws mention "monthly" business meetings! When were they changed??
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
8. The signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services to the church. These people should be recused from committees that review bids for their services.
9. No church credit cards. Pay your own way and then turn in an expense report like I do at my job.
AND I would like to add...
10. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... AND any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
11. The END of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members.
12. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members. Also:
13. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
14. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
15. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.
16. Building prayer buildings or any other type of building should be brought through proper channels to the congregation for prayerful consideration--not coerced "rubber stamping."
By the way, Dr. Rogers taught us quite a bit about prayer. As a matter of fact, I believe all of the current buildings ARE prayer buildings already. He and Dr. Whitmire also taught us quite a bit about worship also... but that's another topic.
17. Bellevue needs to reject Warrenism fully and finally.
18. Congregational nomination of and election of all of the Board of Directors as called for in the 1929 bylaws.
All in my opinion as usual.
Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."
Mom4... exactly...
Proverbs 28:13 He who covers his sins will not prosper, But whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy.
Psalm 32 is good also.
25+
Can you define unethical digging?
Mom4
Amen on Proverbs 28:13!
Derrick Calcote
I hesitated coming to write on the blog until I saw you were here and when I saw that a deacon of our church was blogging, I followed my leader.
I guess you were a stumbling block to my soul, I don`t know, but I do know that I can never trust you again as a leader.
Deacon who is a beacon told you that you were being used by the leaders of our church and I tend to believe him.
You also gave untruthful answers to us but maybe that is because you were used.
Either way, I have learned not to trust you.
PASTOR
You are a complete disgrace to Christendom.
What you did to Karen was enough for me to know you have a BLACK HEART.
Repent or face judgement day with blood on your hands.
pastor said...
25+
Can you define unethical digging?
In order to know I attended a Christamas party where alcohol was served, you would have to either been there and saw me, or someone told you that they saw me, or you dug up something on me that you had to look long and hard to find. I've only been married for 2 months so whatever you found on me was under my formerly married name - that took a lot of time and effort to do and I want to know to what end you decided to post about it today.
You need to reveal to me who you are so I can defend myself against these allegations you have so conveniently called a positive thing. You have stepped way over the line in your assumptions and disparaging of my character and it's time for you to come clean.
Karen
"pastor"
Did my words strike a nerve...
Unethical is in the dictionary. And I believe you know what dirt is.
Pastor,
Please don't forget to speak of repentance, brokeness tomorrow when preaching on forgiveness. Don't forget that repentance is the key to forgivness, that it requires that someone turn and live justly. There might be some folks that could forgive you then, but I seriously doubt that you are going to repay the $1000 rah-rah tickets or the $25K blunder or cut your salary in half. Forgiveness is dependant upon repentance. Did you realize that Christ will not forgive the unrepentant?
I can't give up my anonymity; this is like going to a masquerade party and trying to guess who everyone is.
After all blogging is actually just a pastime or hobby isn’t it? Doesn’t cost any money, doesn’t require any commitment, there is no accountability, and we can blast people and they never know who said what.
If there was serious church business trying to be accomplished, there would be a site created that is closed from the public, and only people with a password are allowed in, kind of like a private intranet. Each person would have to register with their real name, address, phone number and email, and all parties would know exactly who each other is, so accountability would be there.
Karen,
He's baiting you. Don't take the bait. He's attacking you emotionally..don't take the bait.
We may have to wait till the judgment seat of Christ to hear from Steve Gaines, Bryson McQuiston, Phil Wetherwax, Mark D. and Mark Sharp about the "Dream."
It was denied to the staff, deacons, and to the congregation. It is NOT a small matter. It is the reason that everything else has fallen apart.
pastor,
would you like me to rewrite that sermon for you..similar to the way that Rob Mullins resignation was rewritten. I am very interested to see your twisted interpretation of forgiveness.
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