At Bellevue:
Memphis Passion Play
Sunday, April 1st
3:00 p.m. (Sold Out)
6:30 p.m.
Monday, April 2nd
7:00 p.m.
Tuesday, April 3rd
7:00 p.m.
Wednesday, April 4th
7:00 p.m.
At Germantown Baptist:
Germantown Passion Play
Sunday, April 1st
5:30 p.m.
There are several Bellevue members participating in this year's GBC passion play which is directed by Dr. Jim Whitmire.
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«Oldest ‹Older 601 – 743 of 743OFG,
SOTL subsequently made it plain, for any that misunderstood, that she was speaking of society in general and many churches/ministers in specific, not what has occured on the grounds of BBC. She did not lie, and she is not the type to do so. Are you the type to admit when you are wrong?
Blog Administrator:
Thank you.
Junk
Thank you, too. :)
who is the church under attack from? who is the enemy of the church?
It can be Satan, the world, descentors or it can be God himself.
Junk, Great post!
junk99mail said...
God's word makes it plain that any authority is granted only by God, and that authority is valid only so long as it is in keeping with the truths and commands of Scripture. God no where expects or demands that a believer obey an autority when that authority is asking or demanding something that is contrary to God's Word.
OFG
I am going to try ONE MORE TIME:
I DID NOT say that 1 in 5 children are molested by PW or anyone on staff at BBC.
I SAID that in society, 1 in 5 children are molested by SOMEONE>
So, look around in the worship center...for every 5 children you see, they are being molested by SOMEONE....NOT someone at BBC.
And in THAT context, I am outraged that someone would be so concerned that their child was worried about a PICNIC, when there are 1 in 5 children that are NOT safe ...not safe from SOMEONE who is VICTIMIZING them...SOMEWHERE.
I think the leadership wants their cake and eat it too. They want what will inevitably be a rending with that part of the congregation--deeply invested at Bellevue, yet in contempt of leaders for their compounded failures--to mosey along without obligation or protest.
I hope that you won't walk quietly into that dark night (who wrote that?) dispersed and diluted to be forgotten, but document this rending as an instrument of your closure and resolution.
I am going to try to get over to GBC for supper at 5 tomorrie, if'n you aren't fraid of libruls--tehe.
Oh, but he can be blamed for what he can control.
Better yet, he should take responsibility for it instead of trying to hide and cover his rear.
That's what a man of integrity would do.
OFG: WE DON'T KNOW THAT FOR SURE. We pray that is the case. The door for that tragedy to happen was left open by sg's decision. If you can't understand this, I truly fear for you. You are in my prayers.
And YOU know that we don't hold him responsible for what PW did
but for what SG did as the Sr pastor after he became aware of what PW did.....
And ask some of the powers that be.....PW was not the only staff member...
just the only one exposed.
My teenage daughter wouldn't come to BBC on the day of the "meeting". When I asked why, she replied it would be just too strange. Understand, I've kept my daughter out of the loop as far as my own thoughts on the situation at BBC other than that I felt there were some things that needed attention. When I queried her further as to her own thoughts, she remarked that she just didn't care for the show. When I asked what she meant, she replied that you could always tell by what was preached and how it was preached that there was going to be an announcement of some kind...that the message was aimed at whatever the announcement was about. Even a teenager, without any prompting can see what goes on at BBC, and call it what it is...one of the first things she mentioned after SG and Co. first arrived was the "Jamie Parker show". Why can kids see things as they are but not adults?
Memphis
Haven't you been supporting Steve Gaines?
God can do a work in a child's heart despite the pastor, but you are ultimately responsible for the leadership and example he is providing for your family.
Maybe you did not mean for your post to be used as "evidence" in support of Gaines but that is how I took it based on your earlier posts.
I apologize if I misjudged your intentions.
The innocence and unconditional trust of your child for those in authority should make you feel all the more responsible for decisions you make concerning the truth.
watchinghisstory,
Good point ... God can inded be the source of the "attack", in the sense that He brings to us both blessing and calamity (Lam 3) for our good and His glory. Sobering thought.
"Nothing has happened to any children at BBC!!!"
All's well that ends well!!!
apparently both he and the victim were content to keep it quiet those many years.....
GET OFF THIS BLOG
OFG- of course we don't know that as fact, but we can apply logic and say that it's VERY UNLIKELY Dr. Rogers was aware of that situation. PW testified with no reason to lie that Dr. Rogers didn't know. Based on what we have learned about PW's actions and intentions with regard to covering it up...it just doesn't make sense that Dr. Rogers would have been told or made aware.
It really doesn't matter if the family issues had been resolved or not as far as his fitness for ministry. He no longer met the qualifications...period.
And since NO ONE knows beyond a shadow of a doubt whether or not AR knew about him, NO ONE should be suggesting that he did.
AOG: Thank you.
apparently both he and the VICTIM were content to keep it quiet those many years.....
GET OFF THIS BLOG
gmommylv- I didn't suggest keeping it quiet was okay. All I am saying is...for whatever reasons known only to victim and offender...this apparently happened around 1990, and wasn't revealed publically until 2006.
Of course PW should have confessed back then...but he didn't. And, for whatever reasons, he wasn't forced to do so until last year.
Does my bringing up that point offend you?
What we know is that Steve Gaines, KNEW!!
Steve Gaines did NOTHING!, correction, he gave him a raise during the 6 months that he knew..go figure!!
Steve Gaines is to blame for doing nothing that was in his CONTROL!
STOP talking about Brother Rogers
and GET OFF THIS blog.
Watching, because he was not told.
Now stop it..please!!
Everyone,
Please stop trying to engage the troll!
Thanks,
NBBCOF
OFG and loveBBC: All I said was that sg's failure to immediately handle the PW situation could possibly have further endangered children. My point is that because of abused children's propensity to keep quiet for many years, BBC has been put in a horrible liability situation. A solid statement that there were no other victims simply cannot be made.
I have a question for some of you smart ones out there. If a person makes a donation to the Bellevue Foundation can that donation be designated for ones child's tuition at ECS? I noticed that a lot of money given to the Bellevue Foundation goes to ECS. I know that normally tuition is not tax deductible but a gift to Bellevue Foundation is tax deductible. So can someone get a tax deduction by taking it through the foundation to pay the tuition? No particular reason for asking, just curious.
1 in 5 children are sexually abused in America.
So look around you. Do you know 5 children?
Pray for them.
They do not have a safe place.
They do not concern themselves with whether or not they are going to get to go on a picnic.
They are concerned about avoiding the molester.
They wrap themselves up in their sheets at night, hoping that will stop the perpetrator.
They put furniture in front of their doors, hoping that will stop the perpetrator.
They find ways to try to not be home alone with their perp.
These are 10 y/o children doing this!!!
And someone is worried about a picnic???????????????
What a slap in the face to every child who has EVER been sexually abused.
SOMEONE wants us to not talk about sexual abuse becuase HIS 10y/o gets upset about maybe not getting to go on a picnic??????
I am more OUTRAGED over this post than anything i have EVER seen on this blog.
Solomon has minimized the absolute horror of sexual abuse by comparing it to the pain his little darling feels because she might not get to have anymore picnics at BBC.
May God have mercy on you!
THANKS NASS.
Or could a donation be given by BBC to ECS and earmarked for a particular child???
upside down,
Why don't you call the Bellevue Foundation and ask?
901-347-5480
LOVEBBC
ARE YOU SUGGESTING some fault of the child for not revealing it sooner?
sheepless: That's a very interesting question. If that it being done, in effect, tuition become tax deductible.
OFG,
You have been banned from posting here. Why do you continue to do so? Anything you post will be deleted. I've got all night!
NBBCOF
If you are going to be so hard on SG (I am not a supporter of SG) you are going to eventually face the fact that AR was negligent as a shepherd of his flock. He was not intentionally or consciously derelict but a degree of responsibility goes to him. Or else be fair to SG!
NEW YORK CITY!!
(Pace picante sauce ad)
Cakes
I really like your comments, and you have always been welcome here.
But I have to say this about liberal thought as it relates to feelings and not truth.
Weeks ago you said there was no proof Jesus ever lived, when, in fact there is.
For those who are truly interested, there is substantial proof of that and the authenticity of the scriptures, the prophecies, the history, etc.
From your statements I am assuming you have never truly researched these things and find yourself devoted to a religious belief that "feels" right.
I believe your interest in this blog is because of your history and how strongly you "feel" about that. This is understandable and just because you feel strongly about something doesn't make it false, to be certain. We all agree there is absolute truth about pedophiles, don't we?
Just make sure that decisions you make that can determine the direction of your life and the destination of your soul are not based solely on feelings, but truth.
Jesus said "I am the truth and the life. No man cometh to the Father but by me."
The truth about sin does not feel good, so many abandon the truth for something that feels better.
But God knows best. When, as Dr. Rogers says "When God says 'THOU SHALT NOT', He is saying DON'T HURT YOURSELF' and when He says 'THOU SHALT' He is saying "HELP YOURSELF TO HAPPINESS'.
I would have emailed, but your address is not on your profile.
Ducking for cover. :)
Hard to be derelict about something you don't know about.
OFG
Google it..It's all over the place.
Does my bringing up that point offend you?
are you making a joke?????
go away or stop speaking of the victim and Bro. R.......
You are deflecting away from what SG did....he is responsible for doing nothing
you are responsible for using the victim to deflect from your pastor's sin.......
Okay, I've been quiet long enough. To springerspaniel, yes, as far as far as we know (as of 4/3/07) there has only been one admitted victim of PW.
However, there are other children/teenagers who have been abused at Bellevue.
a. the girl who was raped during the SCT. How do I know? One of my good friends had to sit with her while they waited for the police.
b. they've (BBC) has had to increase security during SCT and have extra parents walking the halls and be stationed at various points BECAUSE, BBC has allowed a man to continue to come to church who they know likes to "look" in on girls who are changing. He has been told to stay on the first floor, and supposedly, security knows where he's at at all time. How do I know? I was working the SCT the last 2 years, and the girl that he stepped in on to watch, to see if he could catch in the state of undress, challenged him, and he ran, and she ran to get an adult. From that point on, there's been added security when there are teenagers/children in productions. Don't believe me, call Phil, Jason, Greg, head of security, etc.
c. there is a new lurker in the halls at BBC, that we found out about this past SCT
SO TO YOU MR/MRS/MS/MISS SPRINGERSPANIEL, GET YOU HEAD OUT OF YOUR ELBOW, WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE, your children are not safe in the hallways of BBC.
I wish mine could still be innocent, but because this world is getting closer to the coming of the Lord, things are getting worse faster than ever. You'd better get your children prepared for meeting up with someone who's not so nice. DON'T ASSUME THAT SINCE YOU'RE AT CHURCH, EVERYONE'S OKAY!
At 7:36 AM, April 03, 2007
WatchingHISstory said...
When we criticize FUMC for their views on homosexuality we should not forget that a pedophile pastor walked the halls of Bellevue for 17 years undetected. There is a correlation to why a liberal church condones homosexuality and a large conservative church has one on staff. There is a lacking of the "new nature that is very sensitive to sin in ourselves and the world around us." It would seem that both churches are abandoned by the Holy Spirit to self determination.
junk99mail says ...
watching, it is realy too bad that the time you visited BBC you chose not to return, cuz if you had stayed around you could have prevented this whole mess. Surely you would have picked up on the hidden sins and problems in the hearts of the leadership where no one else did because they were not as in tune with the Holy Spirit as you.
here ya go:
Statistics show that child sexual abuse occurs at an alarming rate. As many as one in three girls and one in seven boys will be sexually abused at some point in their childhood, according to most reliable studies of child sexual abuse in the United States. (Briere, J., Eliot, D.M. Prevalence and Psychological Sequence of Self-Reported Childhood Physical and Sexual Abuse in General Population……: Child Abuse and Neglect, 2003, 27 10).) That means that in a class or concert of 100 people, as many as 20 to 30 of those in the room were sexually abused as children.
sotl says:
There's a lot more where that came from...it took me 90 seconds to find that.
continuallyamazed: Thank you for your honesty. Thank you for helping to protect those children. I too know several of those situations personally and you are right. Thank you for sounding the alarm.
Forewarned is forearmed.
continuallyamazed said...
b. they've (BBC) has had to increase security during SCT and have extra parents walking the halls and be stationed at various points BECAUSE, BBC has allowed a man to continue to come to church who they know likes to "look" in on girls who are changing. He has been told to stay on the first floor, and supposedly, security knows where he's at at all time
junk99mail says ...
How can this be? If security had standing orders to look out for and remove the 15 yr old girl who had been "banned" from BBC, how can they not also have orders to remove this sort of person, but instead just "know where he's at all the time." Something can't be right here.
copied again for ofg who doesn't seem to want to see my previous post:
Statistics show that child sexual abuse occurs at an alarming rate. As many as one in three girls and one in seven boys will be sexually abused at some point in their childhood, according to most reliable studies of child sexual abuse in the United States. (Briere, J., Eliot, D.M. Prevalence and Psychological Sequence of Self-Reported Childhood Physical and Sexual Abuse in General Population……: Child Abuse and Neglect, 2003, 27 10).) That means that in a class or concert of 100 people, as many as 20 to 30 of those in the room were sexually abused as children.
sotl says:
There's a lot more where that came from...it took me 90 seconds to find that.
You say you want open debate
No we don't
ofg,
You can send my apology thru NASS, because I do not want you having my email addy.
You scare me.
SOTL wrote:
"copied again for ofg who doesn't seem to want to see my previous post"
And apparently s/he can't read either, so it really doesn't matter.
I thought "overflowingtoilet" was more appropriate. I failed to see any "grace."
NASS
Are you worn out? :)
" ...If security had standing orders to look out for and remove the 15 yr old girl who had been "banned" from BBC, how can they not also have orders to remove this sort of person, but instead just "know where he's at all the time." Something can't be right here.
BBC is very very wrong
No, piglet. I'm fine! Thanks for asking.
Dear OFG: I hope this will shut you up on the stats that SOTL has been quoting. She is wrong if that really matters to you. The numbers are actually HIGHER.
Here it is:
The statistics are shocking
1 in 4 girls is sexually abused before the age of 18.
1 in 6 boys is sexually abused before the age of 18.
1 in 5 children are solicited sexually while on the internet.
Nearly 70% of all reported sexual assaults (including assaults on adults) occur to children ages 17 and under.
An estimated 39 million survivors of childhood sexual abuse exist in America today.
Now does that answer your question? You want facts? Go to www.darkness2light.org.
But there are other more recent studies that say 1 in 3 girls and 1 in 5 boys will be molested as a minor.
As for the "content" comment. It took me over 44 years to finally tell the "TRUTH". I would hardly call a victim being silent for a number of years being "content."
Oh how I wish there was someone like myself, Ann Brentwood, Susan Vance there for me in 1961.
In closing, OFG I feel for you. You are in my prayers. Please take off the blinders. You have your answers to the stat question.
Does the number 39 Million victims in the USA shock you? It does me and for you to think there are no other victims at Belleuve or any other church is sticking you head in the sand. Jerk it out OFG.
David Brown
junk99mail
You flatter me. However, I am not as in tune to the Holy Spirit as I wish I were.
I did have a check in my spirit 5 or 6 years ago and mentioned this to the friend I was with after the service.
You seem to overlook the fact that it is the Holy Spirit who reveals sins and not men.
Piglet,
No reason to duck around me.
<(^8C
I don't think there is anyone else here that resembles ole cakes in the least, but I don't rightly remember saying Jesus never existed. Did I say that? I don't drink, generally.
I am here, dear, because I was drawn some three months ago by curiosity--my sympathy with the survivor, my history with Southern baptists and sex scandals, and as a writer, obviously; yet I am still here for only one reason. It is because I have grown to know y'all and care very much about your fate. I have to constantly remind my detractors, so I hope that you may take me at my word.
My path, too, questions the veracity of mere feelings, fleeting and often conflicted.
As far as the liberal thing goes, dear piggie, I yam what I yam.
The reason this man is "allowed" to stay around is because they are concerned for his children. They want to be able to keep ministering to his children. Again, how do I know this? This was the explanation given to me when I asked the MOST LOGICAL question of all, "Why has he not been banned from Bellevue?"
Don't get me wrong. I am concerned for his children. Dad has a problem. But other children should not be put at risk, because someone doesn't want to make a phone call and report this man.
p.s. I don't have his name. I just know what he looks like. Believe me when I say, had I ever caught the man where he shouldn't have been, BBC, and noone else for that matter, would have no need to ever worry about him again. I AM A RAPE SURVIVOR! I'll NEVER be a victim again!
I know the man's name.
If anyone wants it, email NASS and she can get you in touch with me.
At 4:57 PM, April 03, 2007
WatchingHISstory said...
If you are going to be so hard on SG (I am not a supporter of SG) you are going to eventually face the fact that AR was negligent as a shepherd of his flock. He was not intentionally or consciously derelict but a degree of responsibility goes to him. Or else be fair to SG!
junk99mail says ...
watching, you seem to have a strong commitment to and understand of God's sovereignty, that "The LORD brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the grave and raises up. The LORD sends poverty and wealth; he humbles and he exalts" (1 Sam 2:7-8), and that it is "from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come" (Lam 3:38).
Surely you know that God has His reasons and His purposes in all that comes to pass. As you have pointed out, a major problem in our churches is "self-determination". It is God who wills, it is God who chooses.
Can it not be at all possible that the fact that AR and others knew nothing of the sin of PW is not because those folks were not sensitive to the prompting of the Holy Spirit, as you have indicated, but rather that the Holy Spirit, for His own reasons, never prompted them, never gave them a clue, of what was in the heart and past of PW? If God is truly in charge, it seems more likely to me that He kept this from being known sooner, because He has a purpose in it being known now. You simply cannot place the fact that AR and others did not know of PW's sin at the feet of anyone but God, unless you yourself are committed to the same "self-determination" for which you criticize others. I do not mean to be harsh, but I do think these are things you need to consider, rather than assuming your opinions are facts.
Dear Solomon,
I have cried a river full and we still have the same Sr. Pastor and the same leadership. I agree with the others, SG and his worldly partners have brought shame on BBC, not the victim or David Brown.
"Do you think there is any difference in child abuse rates of the general population vs. a Baptist congregation."
Is this to what your justifications will be reduced?
Oi!
SOTL,
Would this be the same "man" whose son was discovered in the church with a bag of knives and a gun? And who are both apparently still allowed on church property?
OFG asks:
Do you think there is any difference in child abuse rates of the general population vs. a Baptist congregation.
SOTL says:
( eye roll)
What? YOu think that good baptists don't abuse their kids?
Do the initials PW mean anything to you????
You think that Good baptists don't have cousins, aunts, neighbors, grandfathers, uncles that abuse their ( the baptists') children?
Why in the WORLD would you think that people who HAPPEN to be sitting inside a Baptist church would have a different STAT?
Go do some research..just go to google.com and type in CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE. It'll keep you busy reading all night and you will have no need to post on a blog from which you have been banned.
Hey, I'm getting an echo.
NASS
yeppers
A very naive, uninformed person wrote the following:
"I do believe it's a stretch to compare BBC to the Catholic Church or the general poplulaton on child abuse rates."
I'll let David Brown address this one!
David,
I never disputed the stats, I only asked where they came from.
I never said anything about being content.
I do believe it's a stretch to compare BBC to the Catholic Church or the general poplulaton on child abuse rates.
Trena you are such a moron/nerd.
Deat OFG: The content comment came from some else.
If you want to believe that Bellevue is immune from those stats go for it but you are so wrong. To do that is not to be on our guard at all times and that spells diaster for our children.
If you had told me in June of last year we would be talking about something like this at Bellevue I would have laughed at you. Yet this minister after confessing was allowed to remain on staff for an additional 7 months is insane.
Don't mistake me, I love Bellevue. Two of my sons were saved there and I met my beautiful (not awful) wife there. I love Bellevue. I have shed many tears too over the leadership.
Oh how I wish those stats were not true. I am sorry if I have stepped on some toes today but you know sometimes folks need a wake up call.
I will say this again. And this is mainly to the other victims out there. I count it a blessing to have suffered the abuse I have. It has all been for HIS Glory. HE has led me here today, a sinner, a broken man yet a survivor that has overcome this horrible crime so I can be a voice for those that can't speak. For that I apologize to no one. Victims do not have to be afraid, there are other like like me that will love you and support you, no questions asked and if others want to question us why, then they can just kiss my..........
And to Solomon, I am still waiting.
David Brown
NASS,
NEVER, in a million years did i think that the very naive, uninformed person would be THAT naive and uninformed!!!
He obviously never took STATISTICS in college!!!
Where, oh where, in the stats by the American Psychological Association did it say:
" except for Baptist churches, where it is much lower"
He might as well have said, " "Well, blonde haired people don't abuse their children"
or
" People with brown eyes dont' abuse."
DID the man FORGET that we had a minister who ABUSED his OWN son for 17 years??????
Does this man think that Baptists don't have cousins, uncles, grandfathers, neighbors who might abuse the children of baptists?
Does he think that baptists are somehow immune to sexual abuse?
THIS IS ABSOLUTELY AMAZING that anyone can live in this century and be SOOOO naive!!!!
Good post Junk99
There is and has always been sin in the church. The wheat and tares; the abnormal growth of the mustard seed that has birds lodged in it.
Howeve, even in Israel when there was a Good King on the throne, God postponed His judgement for the sake of that King until he was dead. This happened over and over again.
I see that the Lord preserved AR and his time at Bellevue with tremendous blessing from God because AR was a Spirit-filled man of God and known by all for his integrity. Therefore, God blessed and God made it into the church that it was 18 months ago.
It is not happenstance that all of this came out now. All of this trouble has come about because God has allowed it all to come about, and it is God's timing.
When a man is right with God, even his enemies are at peace with him a proverb says.
Pride comes before a fall.
To say that it doesn't happen at Baptist churches at the same rate as the population in general is to be PRIDEFUL!
" well, WE are Baptists, and that kind of stuff just does not go on here"
( pursed lips and folded hands)
This is taken from Baptist Press. It is from the president of the Southern Baptist Convention, Frank Page, who recently spoke in chapel at MABTS. I thought it was important enough to post instead of link. The 20/20 segment will air on Friday, April 13 at 9:00 PM
TAYLORS, S.C. (BP)--Several days ago, I was interviewed by ABC's "20/20" news for an upcoming program tentatively titled, "Preacher Predators." At the request of several, I agreed to this invitation so as to provide some kind of balance to a program which may well be overwhelmingly negative.
There has been a great deal of attention given to this subject in recent days. As I said to the reporter, we are willing and able to discuss this issue because even one instance of sexual abuse by a minister is too much. While I do not believe the problem is systemic and large-scale, there have been several reported cases of abuse by trusted members of staff in our churches. Let me help set a few matters clear for you.
Some persons have accused Southern Baptists of ignoring the issue and hiding behind our polity. Let me clearly state that we believe in the autonomy of the local church as a biblical mandate. We are not hiding behind anything, except the Bible. In fact, the local church is where accountability must be enforced. I call upon every local church to develop written policy guidelines for the care of children and youth. I call upon every church to have a system or policy in place to deal with any accusations made. We must protect children and youth, and the integrity of staff members.
I ask that all of our churches require background checks (on national and state levels) as well as thorough reference checks for all staff. The local church is where accountability must be enforced. As I said to one person, for years the press has complained that the hierarchy of the Catholic Church has enabled the hiding of sexual predators. Now, they are stating that the lack of our hierarchy is helping hide sexual predators. The truth is that people can abuse any system. There are people who seek out positions in the church where the trust level can be so high that they can then be involved in horrible actions.
I also call upon all local churches to prosecute to the fullest extent of the law anyone who would take advantage of the trust and love of precious children and students. Simply put, there is no place in the church for persons who would take advantage of these relationships.
I urge local churches to take advantage of the multiple numbers of resources that are available on the SBC website, as well as through LifeWay Christian Resources, to help safeguard our children and youth through appropriate policies and educational resources. There are many items available to help. Please use them.
As stated earlier, even one instance of sexual molestation is one too many. Let us be people of integrity. Let us be people of such a trustworthy nature as to bring glory to God. Let us be men and women of the Gospel who provide an atmosphere where trust will not be abused. Let us provide churches where there is an environment of encouragement, instruction and spiritual enlightenment. Our Lord Jesus set the example in His deep love and care for the innocent, the young and the hurting. Let our churches be an example of Jesus' ministry.
--30--
Frank Page is president of the Southern Baptist Convention and pastor of First Baptist Church in Taylors, S.C. Visit his website at www.sbc.net/PresidentsPag
junk99mail
You are not being harsh, but rather, insightful. I have never assumed that my opinions were facts. God's opinions are facts and our job is to be intune with His facts as he reveals them to us. Of coarse our self-determinization gets in the way.
I have considered your point and have been inclined to believe that God has withheld knowledge from AR and He does have a purpose that goes beyond our understanding.
I have a strong belief (and it is not fact as you say) that God is extremely angry with Bellevue. Daily His wrath is being revealed against the church. This cannot be laid at anyones feet but God.
Hey, may I make a motion that we change the name of this thread to Whoa, Chill Out?
Tre...er, I mean NASS, you're awesome to put up with all the craziness up in ch'ere constantly. It's like a three ring circus (and I'm the monkey). Somebody ought to at least buy you dinner for crying out loud.
I guess, for leadership, this qualifies as level 4 meltdown--ha ha; anyway, sometimes you've got to laugh to keep from crying.
Just suggest'n.
Abuse is not a Baptist issue or a Catholic issue..it's a sin issue, and sin is universal...it knows no denomination or boundaries, and thrives in every denomination, every household, every city. Don't kid yourself.
Don't you think that God has wept tears for Bellevue as He wept for Jerusalem. How often he beckoned and none responded.
He had a baptism to endure and how was he distressed till it was accomplished! He is insulted time after time.
Everyone speaks of the pain they are enduring over this mess. The victim, the victims, the pro SG party, the anti-SG party, SG and family and AR's family. But does anyone address the pain that God endures and that which drives His indignation and wrath. Does anyone ask why is God mad? Why is God letting this happen? This seems to be questions each of us has to ask God in our own hearts. God reponds to the humble cry of His children.
"I see many valuable contributions to the SBC coming from the Emergent Leaders Movement.
I believe it is a positive thing to see a broader number of participants in our convention’s direction.
I personally applaud this movement."
Frank Page
Just for your information.
Cakes,
Thanks,I needed that humor.
Better now!!!
PS....I didn't read every detail about the liberal stuff but to me the "deflection " used to take the spotlight off SG and on to the "lightning rods"
isn't liberal
it is manipulative and sick...
I took some classes at BBC in the 90's on how to deal with manipulation.
Gotta get that workbook back out!!!
I have to stop and back the train up here for a moment.
The comment was made that those resistant to sin in the pulpit were outnumbered. The comment was made to ask when these people will realize that they will not win and leave. When will they go find a church that they can serve in.
Answer:
I serve Bellevue Baptist Church by standing for truth more than a 1,000 men who sit on their hands.
I serve Bellevue Baptist Church by confronting sin and trying to help restore accountability and integrity.
More important than Bellevue Baptist Church is the Lord, Jesus Christ that I serve.
I will never, ever, no never, back up, sit down or shut up. NEVER!
Bellevue Baptist Church needs to complete the business meeting that was started and abruptly ended without regarding the business that needed to be addressed.
REGISTER YOUR SUPPORT HERE
Let your voice be heard.
If Bellevue Baptist Church can openly and honestly address these concerns in a business meeting so that the entire congregation becomes aware of the issues and votes to continue along in this path of sin and depravity then I will shake the dust from my feet.
I will never, no never compromise concerning integrity.
WATCHING HISTORY:
I"ve been thinking all day about why you seem to think that AR SHOULD HAVE KNOWN, and I have sorted thru it and now I know why I am upset over your post.
For you to suggest that AR should have somehow known it is to say that when children are abused, it REALLY isn't a secret, and that no one REALLY makes THAT big of an effort to hide it, SOOO that must mean that if someone stands up and STATES that they were sexually abused, would your response to that person be:
" well, no one knew it and it didn't appear to be that way, so it must not have happened"
You seeem to think that these things don't go on..and that EVERY effort is made to keep it a secret.
The child can't tell..no one would believe him..and the adult certainly isn't going to tell on himself..
So are you saying that PW grew some big letter on his forehead that would have/should have identified him to AR.
It's as though you REALLY don't believe that sexual abuse takes place in TOTAL secrecy and that SOMEONE, SOMEHOW should have known, or else, well...either the person that YOU think should have kknown is at fault, or perhaps...perhaps, you think that since the child didn't tell, that he should be held responsible for what happened to him?
How many times must i post this:
" Pedophilia thrives in silence"
before people are going to listen to me?
People don't " look" a certain way when they are pedophiles. They do not belong to one ethnic group, nor do they belong to one socio-economic group. There are as many Dr's and Professors abusing children as their are garbage men and ditch diggers. Consequently, there are as many garbage men and ditch diggers who are loving parents as there are Professors and Doctors.
They are no more black, white or hispanic than any other. It is distributed evenly.
I said all that to say that PW did not look different. AR would have no reason to suspect that he was abusing his child. And for you to say differently flies in the face of the FACTS surrounding the abuse.
Please, please, cuddit out..You are hurting not only the reputation of AR, but you are huring victims as well.
upside down:
--regarding personal benefits on gifts directed to ECS through Bellevue Foundation --
First of all, a call to Bob Dawkins, director of Bellevue Foundation, and to ECS administration, is the only way to get absolute assurance that their respective procedures are implemented according to IRS regulations.
The short answer to the question is - no - you cannot legally get a deduction for a transaction in which you or your family gets a financial benefit, even if given from a donor-advised fund.
It is incumbent upon community foundations, religious foundations, church foundations that handle donor-advised funds and directed gifts, to assure that ECS (or other charity receiving funds) does not provide any personal benefits to the family of any donor that designates ECS for a distribution from the foundation. This goes not only for tuition, but concerts, dinners, game tickets, or any other financial benefit.
As a former director of a foundation that made hundreds of these transactions, I worked carefully with recipient universities, churches, arts organizations, etc., to inform them of the donor identity and of the recipient's responsibility to not provide financial benefits to the donor, and not to make statements of tax deductibility when they send their thank-you letter to the donor either. The tax deduction is received when they made their donation to the Bellevue Foundation (or community foundation).
It takes regular communication on the part of the distributing foundation, to assure that charities who only receive such distributions occasionally -- really know and abide by the rules. Some community foundations actually require a signed letter from the receiving charity before they disburse the funds from the donor-advisement.
If you go into the Bellevue Foundation Form 990's for the last several years (available to the public online), you may note that distributions of up to $500,000 have been made to ECS in a single year. How many donors that represents would be confidential, but it is up to the board of each organization to assure that their CEO's and CFO's are operating within the law, the IRS regs, and Christian ethics.
Don't you know why, watchinghisstory? The answer is sin!
Like Jesus said, it is us we should be greiving for, not God. Hw has everything under control and this did not take Him by surprise.
david brown wrote:
See this.
sickofthelies
In the final analysis God reveals to us what he chooses to reveal and witholds what he chooses to withold.
Did Ananias and Sapphira look like liars? God revealed their sin to Peter. Peter didn't uncover their sin.
Late this afternoon a banned poster nearly wore out his mouse copying and pasting the 5:46 p.m. message (above) ad nauseum, so I have decided to publish the last copy of it -- unedited.
For the hundredth time, you nut cases (you know who you are), my name's not "Trena"! I've never met but one person by that name (that I can recall), and I'm sure, whether or not she's the same "Trena" some of you are so obsessed about, that she'd probably appreciate it if people would stop using and trashing her name. What have people got against this woman anyway?
And 'cakes knows for a fact that's not my name!
NBBCOF, David Brown
"Trustee: Porn Viewing, Charismatic Prayer Treated Equally in Baptist Missionary Screening."
If you wanted to insult my intelligence knowing that I am a former pentecostal you have accomplished that. This association is an insult to charismatics and no wonder the SB C is in so much trouble. I can't believe this! I know what is comming next from you. This is the evil of dispensationalism and that word is banned and probally so am I.
Oops, I guess that was unwise humor--sorry NASS.
Abe
WHS,
I haven't read that article yet and only posted it at the request of David Brown because he was having trouble logging on, so don't include me in that list. But it seems odd to me that if the Pentecostal church is doing so much right and the SBC is doing so much wrong that you decided to move your membership to a Baptist church. Could you please share with us what influenced your decision? Truly, I'm just curious.
Watching: do not be mad at NASS. I am soley responsible for that link. If I could figure out how to post a link I would have done it myself.
But you missed the whole point of that article. For that I am sorry. The discussion today has been about child sexual abuse. The stats I mentioned in an earlier post mentioned internet porn.
Trust me there is too much abuse of it by men. The purpose of the article to show how it has affected the seminary.
Once again we don't want to hear about it. You want to twist it to the private prayer argument. Please pull your head out.
This evil/crime is ALL around us. ALL of us. Why do you think the Promise Keepers spends so much time and resourses dealing with it?
We must do all we can to protect our children. We must put on the full armour of God. ALL of it and not just some of it. Too many men are not willing to do that.
Once again don't get mad at NASS. I am fully capable of taking on your anger.
CAKES: You are right. Maybe some cakes and ice cream would in order.
David Brown
Watching: Did the article not say the primary reason so many men are turned down was for viewing porn?
I haven't moved my membership to a Baptist church. (I don't have a membership) I attend a very good Baptist church. I left the pentecostals because of the mysticism, asceticism and armininism. They are very dispensationalist and I was calvinistic. The church I attend is not calvinist but a very good Bible believing church with solid preaching. The pentecostals I left were better than Bellevue, which is steeped in Armininism and semi-pelagianism. God is not calling for churches to be calvinistic but He is calling for good Bible-believing people and Bellevue does not bear the fruit of that.
voiceofreason, thank you for the explanation. I assumed that was the case but couldn't understand why one would donate a designated gift to the Bellevue Foundation where I would assume that they could have donated that same gift directly to ECS. I am assuming that ECS is a non-profit organization which could accept tax deductible gifts.
Additionally if the gift is one that is not donor designated then why all the funding from Bellevue Foundation to ECS? Why not use it to fund missions or Mid-America? I guess I still have a curiosity as to why the Bellevue Foundation gives $500,000 to ECS. I know many of the leaders in our church send their children to ECS.
DB
"After the pastor in the e-mail raised the controversial issue of private prayer language and its ban in the IMB, Burleson, also a trustee of the International Mission Board, clarified that viewing pornography and using a private prayer language are treated the same in the screening process for missionaries.
"You may have viewed pornography on the internet in the past, and you may have prayed in a private prayer language in the past, but you must renounce both, in terms of 'conviction' (i.e. 'it is wrong') and in terms of practice (i.e. 'I will not do it again')," stated Burleson in his blog.
"Both pornography and a private prayer language are treated as activities from which a person must repent in order to serve as a Southern Baptist missionary," he said, without commenting on his stance on whether the two activities should be treated the same."
You credibility as a serious advocate for sexual abuse is diminished if you group glossolalia and porn addiction in the same categorgy. I'm believing that this is an oversight on your part and NBBCOF should read all post before she links.
As it is she reviews my post before they are posted so she should review your links.
lovecakes said...
"Do you think there is any difference in child abuse rates of the general population vs. a Baptist congregation."
Is this to what your justifications will be reduced?
Oi!
If it is anywhere near the similarity in divorce rates then we are in big trouble.
We need a Holy Ghost revival!
WHS wrote:
"As it is she reviews my post before they are posted so she should review your links."
The fact that comment moderation is temporarily on has nothing to do with you. In case you haven't noticed, I've been a bit busy tonight, and I haven't thoroughly reviewed your posts either. You give me entirely too much credit! If people would conduct themselves as civil adults, there would be no need for "review" or comment moderation.
David Brown has never given me any reason to need to moderate his comments. For the most part you haven't either, but you're treading on thin ice tonight. David explained why he posted that. If you have a problem with the content of it, you might want to take it up with the author. David didn't write it.
upside down,
I thought it was against IRS rules for anyone to give to a non-profit and designate how the money is to be spent.
Do you know if that's true or not?
watching,
David was just pointing up the problem of porn addiction in the church...the fact that the article spoke of the tongues issue along with that is incidental...the IMB issues over PPL is nothing new...Baptists traditionally have not practiced or believed in tongues or PPL, so that should come as no big surprise to you. Calvinists are a far bigger pariah in the SBC right now than charismatics, so don't get so offended by the article...be offended by that fact, since Calvinists can at least make a historical claim to prevalence in the SBC, whereas charismatics cannot. BTW, the vast majority of Calvinists are also cessationists FYI, myself included...but don't be offended by that..those are my convictions just as yours are yours.
Question about BM and policies at BBC....,
Do you think the fact that BBC gives a large amount of money to ECS every year and BM is the one in charge of raising money at ECS AND
is on all the special boards and committees at BBC ....wouldn't that be one of those conflicts of interest that DC said we didn't have?????
Also wondering how BM managed to be on the committee to hire SG,
com.for his salary ,
com.of the investigation into PW,
and the com. for the investigative report .....probably on the famous 'Communications" Com. too.
I may have gotten some of the committee names wrong but I heard all that quoted Sunday night and wondered how DC could feel comfortable telling the whole congregation there were no conflicts of interests with the decision makers of the church????
For a man that could not answer a simple question I asked while my child was there...he sure does carry alot of weight at BBC.
He couldn't understand "sexual purity for ministers" a few weeks ago. He thought we were talking about homosexuals.
Sure feels like some conflicts of interests...or pay backs.
I won't give any money to the Bellevue Foundation unless I can be comfortable as to the direction Bellevue is going. If the current heading is not changed, the Bellevue Foundation could completely change in a short number of years.
Bob Dawkins is a wonderful man but he won't be around forever. When he leaves, I'm sure Steve Gaines would love to have one of his men distributing the money.
That's scary.
upside down said...
voiceofreason, thank you for the explanation. I assumed that was the case but couldn't understand why one would donate a designated gift to the Bellevue Foundation where I would assume that they could have donated that same gift directly to ECS. I am assuming that ECS is a non-profit organization which could accept tax deductible gifts.
Additionally if the gift is one that is not donor designated then why all the funding from Bellevue Foundation to ECS? Why not use it to fund missions or Mid-America? I guess I still have a curiosity as to why the Bellevue Foundation gives $500,000 to ECS. I know many of the leaders in our church send their children to ECS.
REPLY:
Surely it couldn't be because Brian Miller is PREZ of ECS.
Dear Watch: Please email me. My addy is on my profile. I will be glad to discuss this with your futher there.
The primary purpose for the rejections are internet porn. That is so shameful considering these are Christian men that are viewing it.
David Brown
upside down said:
"Why not use it to fund missions or Mid-America? I guess I still have a curiosity as to why the Bellevue Foundation gives $500,000 to ECS. I know many of the leaders in our church send their children to ECS."
They may, in fact, have donated to the others as well. It get's a bit more complicated and a full explanation could be a couple of pages. I'll try to be brief.
Bellevue Foundation (or any community foundation) has agreed to be a holding foundation and conduit to other charities by offering certain services to donors. They are distributing donor's money to other charities, not generally any that came from the church itself.
Usually someone who regularly donates say $20,000 a year to charity, wants to do it in the most tax efficient method possible. Often times, they don't write a check, they contribute stock or real estate that has appreciated in price. For example, the stock market was at all-time high in February. If a donor has a major stock position that has gone up in value to $100,000 and wants to use it for charity (5 years worth at $20,000 per year), the donor can give the stock to the foundation into a donor-advised fund. If the donor sells the stock, he pays capital gains tax, then has money to give away. If he gives the stock to the foundation, the foundation sells it (no capital gains tax - full market value available for charity), and holds it awaiting the donors recommendation for distribution. The donor may send $10,000 to the church, $5,000 to ECS and $5,000 to missions. And can do this for the next five years. Only one transfer of stock -- sold at the 2007 top-of-the-market price (largest tax deduction possible too), and 15 checks to three charities over the next 5 years. Instead of selling the stock each year, at possibly declining prices, they have maximized charitable value and deductions, and funded their charity for the next five years.
Donor-advised funds allow charitable individuals to gather the best value for their favorite charities, and the ability to do a complicated transaction only once, (complicated like stocks, bonds, mutual funds, real estate gift, or closely-held stock in your own company, or life insurance, etc), and have the benefits flow to multiple organizations over multiple years.
Donor-advised funds make up large proportions of assets at community foundations, some religious foundations, some church foundations, and even Fidelity Investment's "Fidelity Charity Fund". They abound all over the place, and are regularly used by those wanting to contribute investment value pre-tax.
Understand, I'm NOT saying all that occurred with the specific ECS gifts noted in the Bellevue Foundation's 990, just giving that as example of good stewardship for someone supporting multiple organizations with gifts of non-cash assets.
Okay, class is over.
Charlie Fox -- there is no evidence that the large amount that one year came from one individual - could have been a special project or capital campaign partially funded by many individuals via Bellevue Foundation.
Need some information...
Some time back, I posted some information about labyrinths on the blog. Some of you followed up on that post by telling me that there were plans underway or had been plans underway, even to the point of blueprints having been obtained, to build a labyrinth in the worship center. A couple of you mentioned having seen the plans. Anyway, this subject has come up with a pastor in another state who tells me Steve Gaines and the bbc leadership would never allow such a thing. So I am asking you if you would mind posting this informationa again for me. I would appreciate it. I wouldn't know where to begin to look for it in the archives. Thanks...
Charlie Fox -- there is no evidence that the large amount that one year came from one individual - could have been a special project or capital campaign partially funded by many individuals via Bellevue Foundation.
REPLY:
I don't believe that was my implication. I believe that I was implying, as was gmommylv, that the money was donated to ECS because of ESC Prez Brian Miller's deep and extensive involvement in the BBC lay hierarchy.
nathanb, you can designate your tithe by marking the money to the general fund, missions, benevolents, or something else. So yes you can designate your gifts. See gifts to universities for specific scholarships or building funds as another example.
Wow, voiceofreason, I feel that I've been in class. But it's been so informative that I've actually enjoyed the learning. Thanks for all the information. Should I receive a windfall of profits on stocks I will need your advise. If you are not in the financial planning field you may be missing your calling.
Solomon: You are not alone. We are all standing for God's Truth. I'll admit I don't understand some of your post but no one wants your family to "be hit by a bus." I for one am thankful your daughters have been protected. There have been many who haven't and that was the grave concern being discussed here on the blog today. There is not a poster here that has not been laughed at, or worse. However, our prize is to hear our Savior say, "Well done, thy good and faithful servant." I can tell from your post that you see that integrity is absent from the BBC leadership. All you are asking for is kindness on the blog. There are many of us that get passionate about our faith and righteously angry at some who come here just to antagonize. However, the majority of the posters on the blog do try to be kind and compassionate to all who come here. Sometimes it is difficult to ascertain emotion and tone over the internet, but having met many of these posters, I can tell you that I would trust them with my life. They are good people searching the scripture for the Truth, holding their leadership to accountability, and in constant prayer. We all want the same thing: BBC to be restored to a place of highest integrity, honoring God in all that is done, and focused on His Word. Take care. :)
solomon
Your girl not gettting to go to a picnic is HARDLY having her innocense stolen from her!!!!
PLEASE, PLeASE PLEASE stop minimizing this.
Solomon,
For you to begrude that fact that David Brown has spoken out IN PUBLIC about sexual abuse within the SBC becasuse it made your little girl worry that she might not get to have any more picnics is what is shameful.
You would rather than innocent children suffer in silence so that your daughter can have her picnics?
You, sir, have high class problems.
YOu can't teach them to be women of integrity by teaching them that nothing else matters in life but their own wants and desires.
And trust me, just TELLING them about sexual abuse does not cause them to lose their innocense. YOu had BETTER tell them about it, or else you are setting them up for far worse.
I can tell you all about losing one's innocense, and it has NOTHING to do with being educated.
In this day and age, not to educate a child about sexual abuse is akin to neglect.
For you to lament that your daughter can't have a picnic because the " bad man" Mr. Brown has exposed the SBC for the sin of sexual abuse is OUTRAGEOUS!!!
The only thing that matters is your daughter's picnic? Let the children be abused..just don't talk aobut it outloud?
SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME on you!
Concerned,
You've got mail
sheepless: no mail yet.
sotl,
I'm not going to discuss this with you tonight. I minimized nothing. Find something in my post that does and we'll talk.
My girl has thankfully not had her innocence taken, and I never said she did.
Why exactly are you saying that I did something I did not? I don't understand.
What have I ever done that involved you, except pray for you when Faith or Hope asked our group to? I don't understand why you feel such a great need to lash out at me.
Concerned,
6:10 ?
upside down:
Thanks for the kind comments. I'm not specifically in financial planning -- more a subset of it utilized mostly by charities themselves -- CSPG - certified specialist in planned giving -- is my training and experience.
sheepless: See you then. :)
Yo,
I'm sorry, Keith--don't go! I don't know when you walked in, but some of us have been around for months and have seen just about every kind of assault imaginable.
Sometimes an atmosphere of the cornered dog takes hold here or the itchy trigger finger. Charlie Fox does a good job reminding folks to keep everything in perspective, and I try to help, that is when I'm not taking the bait like a fool.
There are many good people here, but imperfect--impetuous and emotional (but please consider their own loss and the bad gamesmanship from leadership); sometimes given to suspicions of conspiracy (yet, consider that the contrivances thus far breed suspicions).
Every individual must take responsibility for the comments uttered here and that they are communicated clearly and concisely. Yet we all know that attempts are made to freight the forum itself with the words, character or ideas of a single person--such as moi, or the alleged death-wish guy, etc. I don't think any Truthseekers ever seek to assert or condone every jot and tittle documented here, e.g. the now inflated claim that a poster wished for Padre's death.
We can all be more measured in our speech, including moi, and I apologize if any of my monkey-bidness offended y'all today.
Love, David
PS y'all--I'm old, eyes are going--please use paragraphs.
I dont mean to interrupt your serious bantor, but I must in order to defend the honor of the great Loney name.
First OC suggested last night that I was overmedicated, then Nass supposed that my family tree didn't have enough branches. OC, FYI, the only medication I take is one that helps me not to procrastinate; in fact I'm due to take it right now, but I think I'll just wait and take it tomorrow. And Nass, well, your comment was pretty much right on the money, so kudos to you:)
But I can handle the barbs...I learned to be tough while becoming a doctor at Mexico City Community College Medical School(online)... it was the toughest 2 weeks of my life!
So, go ahead and make BillLoney your whipping boy...I can take it.
As my dear Uncle, Phel Loney, used to say: "when life gives you lemons, there's a better chance that you won't get scurvey"... so true Uncle Phel, so true.
William T. Loney, M.D.
ps...yall stop by the clinic next week...I have a new laser bunion remover...every third toe is free!
more like 6:45 for me
make sure you say hey
At 8:43 PM, April 03, 2007
David Brown said...
The primary purpose for the rejections are internet porn. That is so shameful considering these are Christian men that are viewing it.
junk99mail says ...
David, I read the article, and I don't think the article's author was stating as fact that the number 1 reason men are rejected by the IMB is internet porn. Rather, it appears that the reporter was saying that this was what an unnamed pastor claimed, in an email to another pastor, was said at an IMB summit. But the article goes on to say:
"While internet porn addiction is a problem that IMB comes across among its applicants, it is not the primary reason men are turned down for a missionary position, said Randy Rains, IMB's associate vice president of the office of Mission Personnel."
Of course, I agree that Internet porn is a real problem, and that is it a shame that it is a reason for any missionary candidate to be rejected. But I don't think it is fair to take the report of an unnamed person of what he claims was said at a conference (communicated through another person), over the report directly from an IMB spokesperson.
I think perhaps the reporter was using a common journalistic practice of opening with a controversial claim by one person, stated as fact, in order to draw in the reader.
But, anyway, it was an interesting article, and I appreciate you sharing it with is and I appreciate all that you do in service for the victims of abuse.
Awww, Bill. I was just teasing you last night. I'm sure your family tree has many branches! You've already told us about a few of them. It sounds like you have a very... uh... interesting family.
Speaking of assault, in walks Bill Loney.
When it's time for a sandwich--Bill Loney.
When your out of Dog Food--Bill Loney.
When your broke--Bill Loney.
Yeah, Bill Loney!
Dr. Loney,
I take it Uncle Phel is the "black sheep" of your family.
I can sympathize with him. Empathize even. According to the pastor and others, we're the "black sheeps" of our church family. Do you know what that does to a sheep? {sniff}
Patrick,
We'll be the ones with the blurry eyes.
NASS, the black sheep!
Thanks, junk.
Cakes said
As far as the liberal thing goes, dear piggie, I yam what I yam.
Piglet says:
And as far as lierals go, you're probably my favorite - and I'll always cherish the little picture you gave me!
:O* lil' Piglet
God loves liberals, too. :)
Dr. Loney,
I apologise. I didn't mean to suggest that you were overmedicated. Not at all, my good doctor. I meant to suggest that you are ultramedicated!
"Lierals?" Is that a Freudian slip? Ha!
Yea that's the one of you eating cake. Te-he!
(O8
Hey Patrick, We didn't have blurry eyes at all. Breakfast and Bible Study at MABTS was amazing. I'm sorry all the food was gone before you got there, though! ;)
just kidding, folks!
I have removed one of my posts from 4/2 at the request of a personal friend. I will not reference the topic specifically but I do want to say that I am sick and tired of a certain son coming on blogs of all types and stirring the pot and then runs to daddy when things get hot.
You know who you are and I will not back down again if you continue to post about us on this blog or ANY OTHER BLOG. If you continue I will assume that you want the whole truth out there. You better be able to handle it.
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