At Bellevue:
Memphis Passion Play
Sunday, April 1st
3:00 p.m. (Sold Out)
6:30 p.m.
Monday, April 2nd
7:00 p.m.
Tuesday, April 3rd
7:00 p.m.
Wednesday, April 4th
7:00 p.m.
At Germantown Baptist:
Germantown Passion Play
Sunday, April 1st
5:30 p.m.
There are several Bellevue members participating in this year's GBC passion play which is directed by Dr. Jim Whitmire.
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743 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 743 Newer› Newest»LoveBBC said...
Some of us....wait....MOST of us still at BBC are happy! Why isn't that okay??
8:49 AM, April 02, 2007
Sheepless said,
HAPPY?? Some of you on here don't speak to others as if you are very happy. If you are so HAPPY why to you waste your time on this blog, does this bring you more happiness to revel in the fact that many of us are still hurting.
Well, I am going to speak up for my beloved pastor. He has ministered to me through his preaching more than I could put into words. The Lord speaks to me through Bro. Steve like few others. Yesterday's sermon was one of my favorites. It was such a powerful sermon on the death of Jesus. My heart was moved by the entire service, and I was drawn to a closer walk with Jesus.
I know I am not the only one God spoke to yesterday. Many responded to the invitation, as they do every week. As I was leaving, I could tell by talking to others that they felt a special touch from the Lord as well.
I also read that those attending GBC are being ministered to as well! I praise God for that! I hope every church is effective in that endeavor. I wish GBC well!
What I don't understand is this. The Lord has provided a place that seems a perfect fit for those who do not like the changes at BBC. From what I have read and heard, GBC does things EXACTLY like those disgruntled at BBC want them...and even features Dr. Whitmire and Dr. Spradlin at this time. I believe Mrs. Joyce Rogers is attending there as well?
Why can't you all be happy there, and let the rest of us be happy at BBC??
Concerned,
Did you get my mail?
Furthermore, I am disturbed by those calling into question the character and integrity of some of the finest men I have ever known. Probably the two that disturb me the most are Larry Ray and Charlie Brand. Come on everyone! These are two of the finest men at BBC. They are of course related by marriage. I have known them for over 30 years. Their character and integrity since becoming Christians has never been called into question....until they spoke up and took actions in support of their church and pastor.
Seeing their names on petitions being asked to step down hurt me...okay!! I realize those petitions failed miserably...but
lovebbc,
When there are lies and a false doctrine, we have a responsibility to sound the alarm. We should love our brothers and sisters in Christ enough to show them error and expose unrighteousness. If the Saints had stood up when error first began creeping into the mainline denominations, they might still preach the gospel today. Instead they use religious words and the Bible, but those words are assigned a completely different meaning.
Go ask Charlie Brand how he treated Mrs. Rogers. Find out what he said to her and how he talked to her. He is not the man you believe him to be.
Larry Ray has continued to imply that Dr. Rogers knew Paul Williams was a pedophile. When someone attempted to confront him on this point, in contemplation of Matthew 18, David Coombs cancelled the meeting. He shut it down. Now Coombs has the audacity to claim the way to deal with issues concerning the pastor is Matthew 18. Give me a break! Wake up, Bellevue.
lovebbc,
We love our church too.
Those of us that are not happy with the "ISSUES" at BBC right now, will make a decision to leave WHEN & IF, THE LORD LEADS US TO...NOT WHEN YOU THINK WE SHOULD.
I don't recall a single person on this blog calling for any of the "pro-gaines" members to leave and go somewhere else. They have asked that eyes be opened and truth be revealed and healing to take place.
This speaks volumnes as to where their heart is with the LORD.
Where is your heart, do you want healing for BBC or do you want sin to continue in leadership at BBC?
"Why can't you all be happy there, and let the rest of us be happy at BBC??"
The problem is that MOST of us here on this little-itty-bitty blog have been KICKED OUT of BBC!
I've been a member and staff-wife since 1990. I have given money I didn't really have, and time, and tears, and prayer and service to continue building up a great church.
YOU are enjoying the fruit of my labor. I was enjoying the fruit of the labor of those who went before me. Dr. Rogers ALWAYS said he was standing on the shoulders of some fine saints.
The problem is, Steve Gaines is standing on shoulders of a spiritual giant, and he (Steve) is tearing down the foundation of the church body called Bellevue. He has a Dream... (oops, sorry, he never said he had a dream...)
He and Jamie are in on some plan to tear down, take out the trash, and fix BBC.
BBC DIDN'T NEED FIXING UNTIL STEVE SHOWED UP!
The property on Appling Road has a history that the majority of seat-fillers now at BBC will never understand. It has something to do with sacrifice, repentance for individual and corporate sin, breaking down giants, claiming our Caanan...
Steve Gaines has come in like a step-father to Bellevue-Babies, and he is about the business of kicking out the children who were there before him.
Am I angry! [Explative removed, cause I know better!]Yes! I have a right to be.
I don't mind if Steve wants to come to Memphis, buy property, build a church/mall/cafe and entertain the life out of Memphis.
I do mind that he has stolen BBC to make it fit his dream.
(I find it terribly appropriate that the last 2 leters for my "word verification" are P-U!)
Well, when we get to Heaven....us "seat-fillers now at BBC" will stand as a testimony to the sacrifice, prayer, and hard work of those BBCers gone before. You should be THRILLED that people are continually fed the gospel and ministered to at BBC...even if you are not among us.
That was the original goal...right? Reaching people for Jesus...right?? Not having things a certain way...right?
tnlizzie,
I had a word verif that was very very appropriate early this morning also..it was "stnch"
lovebbc,
Please call Larry Ray and ask him what he told Jerry Osborne's Sunday School class. Ask him if someone tried to confront him on that, in contemplation of Matthew 18. What did Larry say when confronted? Larry said that the Lord had told him to not speak about it anymore. Later, David Coombs admitted he ordered Larry not to speak about it. BBC has really fallen if Larry believes David Coombs is the Lord.
Oh, Larry also told the same person if he wanted to know more to go talk to Mark Dougharty. Despite attending a contentious meeting in which this was discussed, Mark claimed not to even know anything about it.
I think it is really sad that we've gotten to the point where its Dr. Rogers vs. Dr. Gaines in the eyes of so many. That's the last thing either of those men would ever want. My former pastor, Dr. Bobby Moore, who preached at BBC a few weeks ago, is close to Bro. Steve, and was even closer to Dr. Rogers for many years. He shared recently that he wished Dr. Rogers was still alive so he could stick up for his chosen successor.
Bro. Steve has the right as pastor to make whatever changes he feels the Lord leading him to make. He is entitled to this own staff....as was Dr. Rogers. Many forget Dr. Rogers brought Dr. Whitmire with him much the same way Bro. Steve brought Jaime.
Bro. Steve is a more contemporary pastor in terms of style, but his message is very much the old-time gospel...which is what counts.
lovebbc said: "Not having things a certain way...right?"
The way things need to be is according to scripture. Just a cursory look at the Ten Commandments shows some problems with current leadership....continue into Timothy with requirements for a pastor and you run into more problems. The way things need to be is God's way, not sg's way.
IBM has a phrase,
"IF IT AIN'T BROKE DON'T FIX IT", they also had a phrase, IBM,
"I've been moved"
BBC wasn't broke, but Steve & Jamie sure are trying to "fix it."
Has anybody figured out how to get their hands on a copy of the tape with Jamie & Dana being on TV, Jamie saying in 5 yrs you won't recognize Bellevue Baptist Church.
If they didn't like it, Why did they come? Oh, I remember..because BBC has lots of money and they will be able to promote Donna & Steves TV ministry..I'm getting so forgetful!!
Folks, what was reported to be 30 million in cash assets, now is reported to be only 12 - 14 million cash assets, per Chip Freeman. If indeed we did have 30 million recently where did it go?? Regardless, the spread between 12 - 14 million..IS 2 MILLION DOLLARS any way you look at it. Seems like a financial officer could better account for our cash assets than a 2 million dollar spread.....
ANY MANY WONDER WHY WE ARE UPSET..IT'S BECAUSE OUR EYES ARE OPEN...OPEN YOURS BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE.
Lies, deception, co-mingling of funds, twisting of scripture for self-serving purposes, lack of integrity, IGNORING SCRIPTURE..Need I go on!!!.
WAKE UP..WAKE UP...WAKE UP...
lovebbc said: What I don't understand is this. The Lord has provided a place that seems a perfect fit for those who do not like the changes at BBC. From what I have read and heard, GBC does things EXACTLY like those disgruntled at BBC want them...and even features Dr. Whitmire and Dr. Spradlin at this time. I believe Mrs. Joyce Rogers is attending there as well?
Well, you are right. You obviously DON'T understand. The fact that you state that "GBC does things EXACTLY like those disgruntled at BBC want them" shows you are clueless to the real issues and incorrectly believe them to be matters of style or petty preferences rather than matters of trust, openness and integrity.
GBC is its own church with its own culture. I - and probably all those who have joined from BBC - have no desire to remake it into BBC, version 2.
The biggest blessing of ending up at GBC is how welcoming the people have been. I was afraid they would view people like me and my family who were ex-BBC members as "refugees" looking for a church to remake into our version of BBC and think we viewed them as ripe for a "hostile takeover". I even asked a staff person about that when we started visiting and he assured me that "99%" of GBC folks were happy to have us there.
I want to be a part of GBC...not attempt to morph them into BBC, version 2. And I hope that if some GBC long-timer ever catches me with an attitude reflective of "we did it this way at BBC", then they'll promptly whack me over the head with a Big Black Bible and say, "Boy, you ain't at BBC anymore."
P.S. To my knowledge, Mrs. Rogers is not attending Germantown worship services; however, she was at the Passion Play on Saturday night.
Well, I can imagine that when members disobeyed scripture and stopped tithing to BBC, the financial situation was negatively affected. God will provide for His church, and I am confident the financial situation will improve over time.
Our responsibility as church members is to give our tithes to the Lord through our church. We are not held accountable for what's done with that money...that's the leadership's responsibility before God. We are responsible to God that we give it however...and the excuse of worrying what happens to that money won't work at the judgement seat.
lovebbc,
You really need to get your facts straight.
Dr. Rogers did not bring Jim Whitmire in much the same way that Steve brought Jamie.
I was there..the entire time!!
Dr. Rogers brought Dr. Whitmire to Bellevue; he served under Dr.Tommy Lane for many years before Tommy Lane retired.
Tommy Lane was not treated with cruelty and dis-respect as Bro Whitmire and his family.
If you are going to make statements about Bellevue and the Godly men of Bellevue, PLEASE have your facts straight.
THERE IS NO, MUCH THE SAME!!!!!!!
4545,
I can recall a lot of folks who loved Bill Clinton so much they turned him into an icon of sorts after the Monica Lewinsky episode came out. In fact, they thought they were living in the best days of the United States during his reign.
You remind me of this type of person. A man who disregards the Word in favor of supporting a man and a man who is not following the Word. Speaking the Word is not the same as doing the Word.
Your words are empty and to come on this blog and attack us for standing for truth is sick.
Plain and simple, sick!
The Unholy and Unbiblical false foundation of The Church Growth movement...also known as ...
Guru Mantra #1
The methods may change, but the message remains the same
A church built on a foundation of Unbiblical lies, is not a Church, it is an abomination.
FAULTY AND UNGODLY FOUNDATIONS OF THE METHODS DONT MATTER CHURCH GROWTH MANTRA
lovebbc,
Are you a paid staff member?
4545,
I hope you have your running shoes on the way you are running from truth and reality.
Is there anything your preacher could do to make you call it what it is?
loveBBC said: "Our responsibility as church members is to give our tithes to the Lord through our church."
My scripture says "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse...." I would think that the Seminary is a storehouse as well; they train men who have been called to serve God. If you think the tithe issue is the most pressing, you really do need to do some research. Trespassing, co-mingling of funds, harboring a pedophile.....these issues are odds with scripture.
Thanks for that article concerning "church growth." Let me explain something....a church's goal is to reach people for Jesus. Growth is not simply about numbers, but about winning converts. Warren's message is conversion of non-Christians to Jesus. A by-product of succeeding in that goal is in fact numerical growth.
Adapting to the culture in a way that doesn't compromise the scriptures is okay, acceptable, and done daily....particularly in foreign missions.
Rick Warren has been used of God in ways that most of us could never dream of. I haven't agreed with every single thing he has done, but I agree with him that the church's number one goal is to reach the lost. If we're not doing that....we're just edifying ourselves on Sundays.
sorry: it should read "at odds with scripture"
Oh...on this trespassing thing...that just cracks me up. For someone to trespass would imply that they're not welcome on your property.
Let me tell ya friend...if you pastor isn't always welcome at our home....he shouldn't be your pastor.
I would be HONORED if Bro. Steve felt led to visit my home any time. I would be apologizing to him if for some reason he had to jump a fence!!
lovebbc,
I am sure you want the truth as much as the rest of us, so please let us know what Larry Ray has to say.
Mom4, 2 things:
1. Memphis is not a dear Lady. I am a man, a husband, a father, a brother, a son and a dude! :)
2. You are right, I am not wanting to hear about people leaving at the end of their teaching term, at least not in regards to what I posted. I posted what I did in order to show that people still see the LORD working at BBC, or at least I do, as evident with my children. I would have hoped that my post about my children really paying attention and learning/ asking questions about the resurrection would be something that a body of believers would appreciate, and I appreciate the posts celebrating that small win in a small first step for my youngest son to becoming my brother in Christ as well.
So yes, forgive me if I do not receive posts taking away from our great day well.
loveBBC: The question from Rick Warren is what discipleship is being done afterwards and is he using the whole character of God in his explanations. As previously stated, this has all been discussed at great length previously on this blog; you would benefit from research. With PDL churches, the part of God taught and embraced is the "merciful, loving, kind" side while the Holy, Righteous, and judging side is not introduced for fear of being offensive. New believers are not taught about the repentance needed (repentance means "to turn away from" meaning lifestyle changes in many cases) and about Fear of the Lord (fear meaning respect, awe) We are not to approach the throne as an equal but as a humble sinner saved by grace. There is more; please do some more reading. The culture is not honoring to God.
Proverbs 12:12
Kindly drop me an e.mail.
dcalcote@msn.com
No I am not on staff at BBC. I would be honored to serve, but God hasn't moved me in that direction at this time.
I am not a personal friend of Bro. Steve. I have met him, his wife, and oldest daughter. I have been privileged to speak words of encouragement to them that I know they need and appreciate during this time.
I would love to call Bro. Steve and his family personal friends...but, much like Dr. Rogers...our church is just too big for the masses to be be personal friends of the pastor. But, I have prayed for them, encouraged them, and supported them from a distance. That honors the Lord, His church, and our pastor. I am doing what I can during this difficult time...and will gladly do more if the opportunity presents itself.
I can tell you first and foremost...in talking with the Gaines...that they are human beings with feelings. They put on brave faces, and love our church deeply, but they are hurt by what people say about them. I have never been prouder of the way they have hung in there. The easy thing would be to quit. They have hung in there, continued to carry out the mission of BBC, and the Lord has blessed and sustained them.
Again, how can your pastor not be welcome on your property?
I'm trying to remember if I've ever heard anyone accuse their pastor of trespassing???
lovebbc wrote:
"Well, I can imagine that when members disobeyed scripture and stopped tithing to BBC, the financial situation was negatively affected."
We've had this discussion before. Before you shoot your mouth off about things, perhaps you should spend a few days reading through the archives.
"Oh...on this trespassing thing...that just cracks me up. For someone to trespass would imply that they're not welcome on your property."
Well, I'm glad someone finds it amusing. I doubt Mark Sharpe's children, who were home alone, or their neighbors found it the least bit funny. I'm surprised one of the neighbors didn't call the police. Can't you see the headlines in the paper now? "Bellevue Baptist Pastor and 3 Accomplices Arrested for Trespassing on Private Property". Now, wouldn't that have been lovely?
The only thing I found amusing about it was trying to envision little Mark Dougharty trying to get over that "itty bitty" fence. "Guys! Hey, guys! Help me! I need a boost! Awww, come on, fellas. Please???" Now, that might have been good for a chuckle, but I digress.
Again, this has been discussed in great detail in the past. It's all in the archives if you care to enlighten yourself. The photos, including the "No Trespassing" sign are here. Note: It was the white fence they scaled, not the iron gate. Those photos were included to illustrate that it is indeed a gated community and to show the "No Trespassing" signs. No one ever said or even implied they climbed the gate! Good grief. Use your common sense.
So am I to understand that it's okay for anyone to trespass on private, fenced property, clearly marked as such, and to go to someone's door unannounced? If so, I admit I don't understand and never will. What was wrong with picking up the phone and calling first? Would that have been so difficult? Of course, they would have lost the element of surprise and intimidation, and it's obvious that was the real purpose of their "visit." Someone described it as "like an EE visit." Okay, I admit that's funny! LOL!!!
lovebbc,
I just read Doc's post. The point is not about the fence jumping or trespassing and it never was. Doc has it exactly right. It is about the lies surrounding their visit. Please use your head and think.
Trespassing is when someone who is UNWELCOME comes on your property. How can your pastor EVER be unwelcome?? If you pastor is ever unwelcome, I'd say it's time to find a new pastor.
I would hope Mr. Sharpe's children weren't too intimidated by seeing their pastor at the door?
I just don't get this!! I guess we just see it differently depending on how we feel about Bro. Steve.
What an absolute delight it would have been for Dr. Rogers to visit any of our homes...wouldn't we all agree?? Would he have to call ahead?? Of course not!! If he had to jump a fence....or for whatever reason THOUGHT he had to do so...would we not feel terrible and apologize to him??
Wouldn't our kids faces have lit up if Dr. Rogers showed up at our door??
If you don't feel the same about a personal visit from Bro. Steve to your home....again, I think it's time to find a new pastor.
LoveBBC said...
Oh...on this trespassing thing...that just cracks me up. For someone to trespass would imply that they're not welcome on your property.
10:25 AM, April 02, 2007
Memphis,
That is what seperates you from many on this blog. We fail to see the humor. I will try to explain this to you, but I do not believe you will really concern yourself with these facts.
1. This was a trespass in a gated community. (not just an indiviadual, but the community he lived in).
2. SG had this persons Home #, and cell # so he could have called IF he wanted to be announced. He evidently did not want Mark Sharp to know he was coming by himself or with 3 others.
3. The front gate has a box that you can call a house to let you in.
In all of my years, I have never gone into a gated community in any other way, even to my best friends houses. ...even in EE!!! I have been to Mark Sharps community and entered through the gates. It was a very simple process that this community and their visitors use every day.
It appears and is evident that the "spirit and intent" of this visit was to:
1. Make a suprise visit
2. Intimidate this individuals with 4 people to see one person. There would have been a fifth person had it not been for a scheduling conflict. This is ridiculous!
3. This is a visit characterized from the pulpit as having been prayed over. MD wife said "his only regret was that they did not pray before they decided to go"
Now, people on this blog have been begging for answers in many areas of concern(that are very difficult to get). People here are trying to discern truth.
BBC had a wonderful opportunity to allow people to discern truth during the business meeting that came to a fast halt.
There is nothing to discern in this situation. The facts are the truth.
What do you think would be said if 4 or 5 men went to SG home unannouced in this same matter? Well, don't worry about that, because those that have been named as sinners before the Deacon body have more discernment than that.
Your defination of Treaspassing is also very incorrect, this might help:
tres·pass –noun 1. Law. a. an unlawful act causing injury to the person, property, or rights of another, committed with force or violence, actual or implied.
b. a wrongful entry upon the lands of another.
c. the action to recover damages for such an injury.
2. an encroachment or intrusion.
3. an offense, sin, or wrong.
–verb (used without object) 4. Law. to commit a trespass.
5. to encroach on a person's privacy, time, etc.; infringe (usually fol. by on or upon).
6. to commit a transgression or offense; transgress; offend; sin.
Tell me. What is so funny about this. Would you accept these type excuses from your children? I pray for you that if you have children they are not as cleaver in their ability to cover up what God calls SIN.
lovebbc,
Now don't you worry about the Gaines...Donna Gaines herself said that she and her husband are used to taking out the trash.
See? They don't need you to worry about them. They know EXACTLY what to do with folks who don't agree with them.
By request from a brave BBC minister who attended last Thursday's staff meeting, I am reposting something I wrote several months ago...
An Itty Bitty Fence
Accusation Summary
On August 7, 2006, Steve Gaines, Chuck Taylor, Mark Dougharty, and John Caldwell desired a meeting with Mark Sharpe so they drove to Mark’s private, gated neighborhood. They did not contact Mark to announce they were coming. When they arrived the neighborhood gate was closed. Surrounding the neighborhood is a 43 inch rail fence ( photo here ). The neighborhood is clearly marked with signs that say “No Trespassing” and “Private Property” ( photo here ). ( gate photo here )
Instead of waiting out front and calling Mark, the foursome climbed the fence and walk to Mark’s home. He was not home so they spoke with one of Mark’s children.
By August 7th, the conflict at Bellevue was beginning to crescendo. Mark Sharpe, Richard Emerson, and staff members had been asking questions for months. These men—the foursome—and other leaders were aware of these questions. They were also aware of an upcoming meeting of church members concerned with matters at church. They did not want that meeting to take place. The have said they went to Mark’s home that evening out of concern for our church and their urgent desire to “reconcile with a brother.”
In a deacon’s meeting these men confirmed they had “stepped over a fence.” One of them has characterized their attempt to see Mark as “not any different than an EE visit.” The pastor referred to the fence as an “itty bitty” fence on the evening of September 24th.
All but John Caldwell have personally apologized to Mark Sharpe for trespassing and showing up at his home unannounced.
Analysis
There are many issues that arise from this sequence of events. I will focus on only a few that concern me. This is an easy issue to understand once you consider the evidence and follow the sequence of events.
According to Dictionary.com, “itty bitty” is defined as follows: “very small, tiny.” Perhaps Brother Steve believes a 43 inch fence is very small or tiny. I disagree. I believe that was a characterization designed to mislead. I readily admit my conclusion is just that: my conclusion. It cannot be proven since I have no way to ascertain his thought process or understanding when he made that statement to the church. It boils down to his understanding of the definition of “very small” or “tiny.” Maybe he considers a fence that waste high to be “very small” or “tiny.”
Maybe Wilt Chamberlain or Shaquille O’Neal could step over a 43 inch fence. None of the Bellevue foursome could do it. I do not believe any one of them is even capable of jumping the fence. To put it in perspective, the hurdles used in Olympic sprints are 42 inches tall. The pastor is tallest of those men and I believe he is also the youngest. Check out the photo linked above, do you believe he is capable of even hurdling a 43 inch fence? The foursome have said they had come from a meeting at the church and then drove to Mark’s home. I doubt they were wearing track clothing in that meeting. That is just a guess. The only logical conclusion I can draw is the claim they “stepped over” the fence is patently false. Someone lied and they all allowed the lie to go unchallenged. Each man has had months to correct the record. By not doing so, each has given his tacit approval of the lie.
Does Bellevue train our EE participants to climb or step-over fences onto private property in gated neighborhoods to share the gospel? I do not remember that from my EE days, so I don’t know the answer. If we do advise our people to scale fences, this policy needs to be reconsidered. We do not want Bellevue members handcuffed and arrested while laying out the Roman Road. Imagine the liability and embarrassment.
To me the most crucial aspect of this story is not the trespassing itself. It’s not whether or not they stepped over the fence. It’s not whether or not the fence is “itty bitty.” Those are troubling issues, yet they pale in comparison to the real issue, which is the purpose of the meeting. The most crucial aspect of this scenario is the claim the foursome’s intention was to “reconcile with a brother.” They have said they loved him so much and loved Bellevue so much they were moved to go to him to reconcile right then. It was so urgent they did not even take the time to walk over to the deacon registry and lookup his phone number so they could alert him ahead of time. (Do you believe they happened to know his address? Just asking…) If this was true, then I believe I could overlook “stepping over” the “itty bitty” fence. If they truly were seeking to meet with Mark Sharpe in a spirit of Christian love, this entire sequence of events should be a dead issue as far as I’m concerned. I bet Mark would agree with me.
If it is true their desire was to “reconcile with a brother” I am forced to ask the following questions: If it was that urgent, why didn’t they wait until Mark got home to speak with him. Why didn’t they call him later than evening to speak with him?
Why didn’t they call him the next day to speak with him? Again, if it was urgent, what changed? What caused them to give up their desire to reconcile with Mark before speaking with him? This befuddles me. No one attempted to speak with Mark for several days. The next contact with Mark was the infamous “Hezbollah” call with the pastor. The pastor’s words and tone were heard by Lydia Sharpe and Deacon Richard Emerson. He was angry with Mark and did not seek reconciliation at that time.
I cannot look into these men’s hearts. However, logic dictates there was never any intention to reconcile with Mark. Logic says they intended to confront and intimidate Mark into not attending and speaking at the upcoming public meeting. Logic dictates these men knew perfectly well how to quickly find Mark’s phone number. I assume they had to look up the address and they made the decision not to call Mark because they wanted the element of surprise. They wanted to catch him off-guard. They also wanted to speak with him alone. They did not want him to have time to contact Richard Emerson and others because they did not want any witnesses. Some of this is supposition, but it comports with the facts that are on the record.
Concerning the apologies to Mark, the foursome did not apologize to him for trespassing until shortly before the Communications Committee report was issued months later. I believe Mark Dougharty and Brother Steve apologized only so they could claim they had done so. Chuck Taylor did not seek Mark out to apologize. Instead he only apologized after Mark expressed his disappointment over the phone that Chuck had never apologized. John Caldwell has never apologized.
Conclusion
Based on the statements of the Bellevue foursome, the only logical conclusion is they did not go to Mark’s unannounced out of love to reconcile with a brother. If that was their intention and they felt so strongly about it, they would have continued seeking reconciliation until it was accomplished. That did not happen nor was it attempted. “To reconcile with a brother” was an excuse concocted to put a positive spin on their actions. In other words, that was a lie designed to hide the fact they wanted to intimidate Mark Sharpe into silence.
How welcome would someone be to your home if they had slandered you, which is exactly what Steve Gaines and Jeff Arnold, Jr. did to Mark Sharpe. They lied about what he had said to them in their meeting in May. He lied to the staff and he lied to a group of deacons.
Wake up, that visit was not a friendly social visit from the pastor. It was intimidation!
BBC Refugee said:
Memphis,
That is what seperates you from many on this blog. We fail to see the humor. I will try to explain this to you, but I do not believe you will really concern yourself with these facts.
Fact of the matter is, you have the wrong guy named. I have not posted on the trespassing issues. So please double check your facts before you attempt to belittle someone. I do concern myself with the facts. Thanks
Memphis
Proverbs 12:22
You've got mail.
Again I will say....Bro. Steve, Mrs. Donna, Lindsey, Alli, and Bethany are human beings with feelings. LOL I am sure Darrell and his family are as well...they're just not here very much and away from all this...Praise God for that! The others have to deal with all this in some form or fashion daily. I love them, and I am so thankful they are here! Steve and Donna are very talented speakers, and have been used of God in MIGHTY ways to bring people to Jesus!! Only eternity will know just how many people their lives and ministry have touched!
I am thankful that Bro. Steve is able to hold his tongue when his family members are attacked. I have to admit that would be hard for me. His wife is precious, as are his daughters!! If someone attacked your families...don't you think it would be hard not to come back with guns blazing??
Bro. Steve and Mrs. Donna are focused on a higher calling, and that's why they've been able to withstand everything that has happened. Their continued willingness to stay here is admirable, because again they could easily go somewhere else! We are lucky to have them.
I would like to remind Mr. Calcote and others (you know who you are) of the rules about posting here once again. Anonymous comments are not allowed. You must register with a unique screen name and make your profile visible to post. Real names are not required. Period. This obsession by some with people's "true identities" is getting old. If you want to sign your real name, fine. But if you ask someone his name and the person doesn't reply or chooses not to reveal his name, then drop it! Each person has his own reasons for not revealing his name in this forum, and you should respect that. If you don't like the rules, don't engage in the discussions.
Comments in which people badger other people to reveal their names are subject to deletion.
NBBCOF
Rod said:
Also, they are influenced by their Bible Fellowship teachers and they are naieve
SOTL says:
Rod, You are soo right!! My SS teacher told us, EVEN AFTER THE SEPTEMBER 24 CHURCH SERVICE WHERE THEY ADMITTED TO CLIMBING THE FENCE, that it was just a few disgruntled people who were upset about the music.
This teacher KNEW this was a lie, yet continued to spew it.
After the PW incident, the teacher said to me, " well, he only did it once"...as though that made it ok.
That did it for me.
I was done.
SOTL,
He didn't just do it once. He did it repeatedly over a period of up to 18 months. He is a monster!
Anyone who believes we can excuse even one occurrence of child molestation does not know the Scripture and they do not have a high regard for children. They have no understanding of the seriousness of this sin. This is a sin that devastates!
Exodus 7:17
Thus saith the LORD, In this thou shalt know that I am the LORD: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood.
When the water (the blessings of the Holy Spirit) was turned to blood (the just judgement of a Holy God), the Egyptians were impacted in many ways.
They suffered physically because they needed water to live.
They suffered financially because the Nile was the primary source of commerce.
They suffered emotionally because they could not understand the plague that was upon them.
They suffered spiritually because they had worshipped the Nile and God had shown His power over it.
This all came upon the Eqyptians because a man had made a god of himself. This man hardened his heart against the Living God of all creation.
Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
I John 5:6
This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
Jesus Christ, the God of all creation has not changed. The Spirit is truth. When truth is removed the Spirit is removed. When the Spirit is removed there will be suffering, physically, financially, emotionally and spiritually.
2 Peter 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
No man has Scriptural authority to demand a pledge of loyalty or support. Support is gained through loyalty. Loyalty is earned through character and integrity. It is dangerous ground for any man to have any semblance of making a god of themselves.
Selah.
You know what I think we need to do here...let's start a new thread for people to tell stories of how Bellevue's ministry has positively impacted their lives for the Lord Jesus over the last 18-21 months or so since Bro. Steve became pastor. I think that would be a nice change. I'm not saying you have to shut this thread down...but I think a little "equal time" would be nice.
Anyone agree??
lovebbc wrote about bobby moore:
He shared recently that he wished Dr. Rogers was still alive so he could stick up for his chosen successor.
sotl says:
Too bad Bobby Moore and lovebbc don't have their facts straight: Dr. R. asked Steve to resign, told him that he had made a mistake.
Dr. Rogers was duped by SG, as so many now are. However, it did not take Dr. R. long to figure it out, after he got an ' upclose and personal' look at the wicked man.
love bbc,
You dont' get it, do you?
This is OUR forum. If you want to go and start your own blog, please, do so.
We are hurting. This blog is for us.
You don't need to piggyback on this blog for your own agenda.
Go start your own.
SOTL---can you substantiate this?
lovebbc,
If you want equal time, please start your own blog. You already control the pulpit, the deacons, the staff, the Bible Fellowship teachers, and the congregation. How much more do you need? You sound like the Democrats calling for fairness in the media. What a joke!
Dr. Rogers met with Dr. Spradlin and cried over what was happening to Bellevue. They sat beneath the three crosses and cried!
I can't prove he told Steve to resign. He did castigate him and tell him to "slow down."
LoveBBC said...
SOTL---can you substantiate this?
I would suggest that Bobby Moore talk to the Rogers family. For some reason they have left Bellevue and since that is the church that their patriarch gave his life in devotion to the Lord to build, that should be a real eye opener to him. The only reason that he would be so blind, is that he has been persuaded by the angel of light. Perhaps he needs to seek the Lord's insight before he makes such a foolish statement (and I love Bobby Moore, I have one of his books - signed!)
SOTL- Saying that Dr. Rogers asked Dr. Gaines to resign is a serious charge....I just wanted to clarify. I wasn't suggesting you were being dishonest, I just wanted to understand what had actually been said and by who.
If such a thing had actually happened...that's about all anyone would be talking about.
Did Dr. Spradlin say something to give the impression that Dr. Rogers had asked Dr. Gaines to step down?
Memphis said
Yes Mom4, I have no doubt that many are leaving when their term is up, probably like many do every year, like I left when my term was up. I am also confident that there will be many who receive their call to "do their time" in the nursery and childrens area.
Piglet says:
Hope and pray they aren't fence-jumping pedophiles.
What kills me about the "itty bitty fence" is- I don't care if it was one of those little fences you put around tomatoes- it had a No Trespassing Sign on it! Use the call button at the gate! The only reason, outside or intimidation, I can think of for four men climbing a fence without calling is if they had reason to believe Mark Sharpe had “fallen- and I can’t get up!”
LOVBBC:
Today you have given me some insight as to how many of us have so different views regarding our present trouble. When you left Broadway Baptist in 1982/3, you were focused on the issues. Today you seem to be focused on the people at the heart of the issue.
I know it is very hard to stand back and see the actions and words of your friends in an unbiased manner. Loyalty is wonderful and applauded, but ignoring the facts is a blind love. True love requires that we see each other with open eyes, so that we can refrain from placeing these people upon pedestals from which they can only fall.
Ask yourself this, "Are the words, actions and ideas of only a "few people enough to bring about whgat we have seen at Bellevue? Is it possible that there are larger issues at work here?"
lovebbc said
Some of us....wait....MOST of us still at BBC are happy! Why isn't that okay??
Piglet says:
Then why are you here where we are sharing our struggles and losses?
Our beloved church home has been hijacked by a carnal pastor with a love for money and a deceitful heart. We are having to pull our kids out of ministries where they have served and away from friends they love - have since they were born.
The fact that YOU are happy about all this does NOT make it okay.
Got it? :(
We WON'T be celebrating with you so take your party hats and balloons and go home.
With regard to the Rogers family...and certainly I cannot speak for them and am not trying to...I don't know that their departure from BBC is intended to be a knock against Bro. Steve. I have HEARD from reliable sources that Mrs. Joyce followed Dr. Whitmire to GBC out of comfort and personal preference with regard to the worship style. I imagine the rest of them simply want to go to church with their mother.
I can also imagine the pain and sense of loss is magnified when they are at BBC. Having lost a father who was on staff at another church, I can relate to that feeling.
I have heard Mrs. Joyce speak favorably about Bro. Steve in public....as recently as this calendar year. That's not to say that she's personally happy about all the changes...or she'd probably still be attending BBC at least part-time. But, at the same time, I think she doesn't want anyone to get the impression that she has a personal issue with Bro. Steve. I personally heard the words "fine man" come from her lips in reference to Bro. Steve.
Whoever suggested I left Broadway Baptist in 1982/83 has me misidentified
4545 said
Piglet: Memphis writes post about the great day his family had at Bellevue and the first thing out of your mouth is about "the" business meeting??
Piglet says:
Yes. This occurred last Sunday and SHOULD have been a clear example to ALL how this leadership has continued to silence any questions - no matter how respectful we are when we ask, and no matter if the motion makes perfect sense , and in the case of the quarterly business meetings - doesn't even aspire to the standard of our own bylaws.
Folks see this arrogant, deceitful attitude and go on like it never happened. This is the kind of church they want for their kids?
Their precious little first grader cannot see it, but Mommy and Daddy SHOULD, and should be dismayed that godly leaders have let this unholy PRIDE and sin destroy our church.
I have heard Mrs. Joyce speak favorably about Bro. Steve in public....as recently as this calendar year. That's not to say that she's personally happy about all the changes...or she'd probably still be attending BBC at least part-time. But, at the same time, I think she doesn't want anyone to get the impression that she has a personal issue with Bro. Steve. I personally heard the words "fine man" come from her lips in reference to Bro. Steve.
This is rediculous to allow all this speculation without addressing it. The Rogers family has been hurting all along and have put up with more than you or I could bear; however,I think it is high time for the Rogers family to become vocal! They can put an end to this immediately - the only problem is the venue. Mrs Rogers asked to address the congregation and was told no. Does that sound like she is welcome at BBC?
Regarding your 12:23 p.m. request for a new thread, there's already a whole forum for that right here.
lovebbc
That was the original goal...right? Reaching people for Jesus...right?? Not having things a certain way...right?
Piglet says:
This is not about style. It is about SIN, power and money-hungry leaders who are about to be exposed and are even disobeying the law in order to protect their positions!
Should Ted Haggert still be a pastor as long as his homosexual lover remains a safely kept secret by the leaders who support him? Folk were getting saved under him.
Were those who ousted Haggert WRONG? Sin is sin - and continued, unrepented sin is DEFIANCE in the face of ALMIGHTY GOD.
You seem to imply that it's okay as long as it's kept secret and folks get saved...
tnlizzie2000
AMEN and a standing O for your 9:29 post!! :)
Well mom4....I think they've done the right thing by staying out of it. Mrs. Rogers however did speak up when it was suggested her husband might have known about Bro. Paul's sin. Obviously she doesn't know for sure...but she wasn't about to let anyone question the integrity of her husband.
Only Bro. Paul and Dr. Rogers know the truth about that. Bro. Paul says Dr. Rogers didn't know...and I believe him. I find it hard to believe he would have told Dr. Rogers, because it would have put his job at risk. The only reason I believe he told Bro. Steve was because his son was about to "out" him.
Back to the point...you question Dr. Roger's personal integrity, you will hear from the family. Otherwise, I imagine they'll stay out of all this.
bbc,
I cannot reveal my source, because to do so would be a betrayal of trust. ( NOT that anyone at bbc cares about that anymore)
Were you also aware that SG LOCKED Dr. R. out of the pastor's office? He had the locks changed so that Dr. R. could not get in. This is a FACT, as verified by security.
What do you think might have precipitated that? HMMMM?
BBC,
"Back to the point...you question Dr. Roger's personal integrity, you will hear from the family. Otherwise, I imagine they'll stay out of all this."
ARE YOU KIDDING ME? WHERE DID YOU GET THAT I QUESTIONED HIS INTEGRITY? IT IS NO WONDER YOU ARE LIVING IN IGNORANCE, YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND ANYTHING - DUH! GO AWAY!
Dr. Rogers used to say that sin used to cower in the back alleys and now it's strutting down Main Street.
Now we have a pastor, Steve Gaines, strutting his sin down Main Street, taking thousands of
un-discerning people with him. Even some that know it is wrong, are going along just to get along.
There's just one problem: God sees you. He knows who you are.
I am PROUD to not be among them. I am PROUD to stand for Jesus, even if it is not the popular thing to do. Even though I was jeered and leered at by those who do the strutting.
God help Bellevue Baptist Church and those who choose to keep their eyes and ears closed, and choose to follow a man, rather than Jesus.
Lovebbc said
Bro. Steve has the right as pastor to make whatever changes he feels the Lord leading him to make. He is entitled to this own staff....as was Dr. Rogers. Many forget Dr. Rogers brought Dr. Whitmire with him much the same way Bro. Steve brought Jaime.
Piglet says:
Whitmire served UNDER Tommy for several years until he retired. Tommy was not humiliated and forced out. There is a respectful way to do things and an arrogant hateful way.
lovebbc said:
My former pastor, Dr. Bobby Moore, who preached at BBC a few weeks ago, is close to Bro. Steve, and was even closer to Dr. Rogers for many years. He shared recently that he wished Dr. Rogers was still alive so he could stick up for his chosen successor.
Piglet says:
I seriously doubt Bobby Moore knows the full story on Gaines. There's been a concentrated effort to keep a lid on all this and that's why so many HATE the blog and want us labeled liars. The story on the street is that he is a victim.
If Moore DOES know all he has done and supports him, then I question his integrity as well.
Oi, that Faith in Bellevue page is as peaceful as a corpse.
For more your style, lovebbc, go here:thebrattonreport.blogspot.com.
Besides, my new best friends over there are running out of happy talk and could use reinforcements.
Greetings from the pureland, Truthseekers.
Piglet,
Tommy Lane served under Dr. Rogers for about 13 years. Totally different than Jamie.
Anyone else but me wondering why Gaines had to have Jamie here and had to have him right then? Where in the Bible does it explain a "convenant relationship" between a pastor and musician?
lovebc said
I would be HONORED if Bro. Steve felt led to visit my home any time. I would be apologizing to him if for some reason he had to jump a fence!!
Piglet says:
I can see you have not witnessed one of his childish tantrums or been called names by him like some friends of mine or you wouldn't be so honored.
I have listened to Dr. Rogers for years on WCRV 640AM at 7am and bought many of his tapes. I still listen to Dr. Rogers daily. I’m not afraid of anything anyone who has sat under his teaching as a member at BBC may want to do at GBC. They are all welcome to come as visitors to GBC while they retain BBC membership (in case of a future vote) or just join GBC. Either way whatever they feel led to by God is fine by me. If new people have good ideas I’ll roll with it. So far I have thoroughly enjoyed the BBC people I’ve met on Sunday morning, evening and on Wednesday at dinner. You all can keep coming as long as you like as far as I am concerned. I have a feeling if the shoe was on the other foot you would welcome me.
Dinner is @ 5pm Wednesday if you are interested. :-)
Memphis said
So yes, forgive me if I do not receive posts taking away from our great day well.
Piglet says:
I understand. Facing the truth has ruined many a great day for me. :(
"Anyone else but me wondering why Gaines had to have Jamie here and had to have him right then? Where in the Bible does it explain a "convenant relationship" between a pastor and musician"
Maybe there is a secret they can't tell?
The business meeting on March 25, 2007 was ended abruptly and without full conclusion of business. There needs to be an overwhelming show of support from Bellevue Baptist Church members that they would like to schedule another meeting.
OPEN BUSINESS MEETING PETITION
This sight does not allow anonymous signatures, also every signature will be verified by a valid e-mail address. Your voice can make a difference and is necessary in the life of Bellevue Baptist Church.
proverbs 12:22,
Would you mind e-mailing me?
Thanks,
NBBCOF
A couple of questions for anyone, but especially those in support of SG.
Are there or are there not consequences to sin?
Is this taught in the bible?
Are there consequences even after confession and repentance?
p.s.
I have it on VERY, VERY good authority, that although they're saying the 3:00 performance was sold out, there was practically noone there. The balcony was COMPLETELY empty, and the downstairs was sparse. The evening performance had maybe 4 to 5 people in the balcony, but not because the downstairs was full. It wa sparse again.
lovebbc said
If you don't feel the same about a personal visit from Bro. Steve to your home....again, I think it's time to find a new pastor.
Piglet says:
Fine. Let's send Stevie packing and start looking for a new pastor who deserves our respect.
Regarding my 3:48 p.m. post from yesterday (scroll up), see Psalm 119:121-128.
Sunday may have been sold out, but it was not full. However, the downstairs was probably 70% occupied, and the center sections of the balcony (2-3 sections) appeared to be full.
I don't know why this was brought up...but I thought I'd clarify since I was there.
continuallyamazed wrote:
"I have it on VERY, VERY good authority, that although they're saying the 3:00 performance was sold out, there was practically noone there. The balcony was COMPLETELY empty, and the downstairs was sparse. The evening performance had maybe 4 to 5 people in the balcony, but not because the downstairs was full. It wa sparse again."
Oh, really? We wanted to go to one of yesterday's performances but figured we'd have to stand in line to get in. That's very telling. Thank you.
i am referring to the 3p.m. performance
I wondered if someone was going to make a motion during last Sunday's "business" meeting in favor of BBC going to one Sunday morning service. They could save on utilities, and there'd be only one sermon to deliver. There'd be no rush to get everyone out before the second service. The camera operators wouldn't have to be so careful not to show the whole crowd (or current lack thereof). Hey, it would be a win-win situation for everyone!
GBC member said,
They are all welcome to come as visitors to GBC while they retain BBC membership (in case of a future vote) or just join GBC.
Amy says, Ditto!
Dinner is @ 5pm Wednesday if you are interested
And here's a freebie- if you see a dessert you like, grab it first- they go fast! If anyone would like to meet for dinner Wednesday, Im always there and would love to meet you!
lovebbc and others,
To me, it's not so much about "changes" SG wants to make at Bellevue. It is expected that whenever a new pastor comes on board, changes will be made. It only makes sense.
The problem I have, as do many others, is a series of decisions that demonstrate a marked lack of integrity and good judgment on the part of SG and some of the men who surround him.
This is not a matter of taste. It's a matter of integrity in the leadership.
Jesus' goal for us is not that we are "happy."
Amy,
Dat cludes moi?
Cakes,
I've got the seat next to me marked with your name! See ya' Wednesday.
Charlie Fox said, "The GBC bulletin today announced the resignation of the Single's Minister. It is reported that he is going to Sam Shaw's little church in Tupelo, if that tells you anything."
Interesting Charlie. The pastor from my former church also went to that area. :)There are many, many PD churches in that area. Interesting. Also there is a Lutheran Church there sporting a labyrinth. Just keeps getting worse and worse Charlie.
Ima
Amy,
So GBC has a Wednesday night Worship service, not a prayer meeting? AND a meal??
gbc member
Thanks for the invite! You folks have been very welcoming to us when we visit!!! :)
ATTENTION ! ATTENTION ! ATTENTION !
THERE IS SUPPOSED TO BE SOMETHING VERY IMPORTANT ON WCRV (AM 640) AT 3:00 TODAY.
ATTENTION ! ATTENTION ! ATTENTION !
Folks -
I have not posted in months, but I wanted to comment on the following post from continuallyamazed:
p.s.
I have it on VERY, VERY good authority, that although they're saying the 3:00 performance was sold out, there was practically noone there. The balcony was COMPLETELY empty, and the downstairs was sparse. The evening performance had maybe 4 to 5 people in the balcony, but not because the downstairs was full. It wa sparse again.
I am in the orchestra, and although attendance was up on Sunday afternoon it was not close to being sold out. The floor was at about 70% capacity, and only the center sections of the balcony were filled. Despite what you may be hearing from the leadership, the attendance at this years Passion Play is down considerably from years past. As a matter of fact, the opening night crowd was the smallest I have witnessed in the 9 years I have been participating.
Rudi
ATTENTION ! ATTENTION ! ATTENTION !
THERE IS SUPPOSED TO BE SOMETHING VERY IMPORTANT ON WCRV (AM 640) AT 3:00 TODAY.
ATTENTION ! ATTENTION ! ATTENTION !
For those of us who will not be able to listen at work, can someone give us a blog update about what will be discussed on the radio?
Thanks.
I've heard from a couple deacons that attendance is the morning services is down by about 2,200 (not sure if that's per service or in total).
socwork,
We sure will. Did you check to see if you can get it streaming online?
Thank you, mom4.
(even if I could get it streaming online, I'm not in a place where I can listen.)
Meh... it's just an "infomercial" for a couple of Hotel chains in Branson Missouri. Back to Sports Talk.
It's not about Branson, MO. Stay tuned.
Will do!!!
Ahhh!!! Just heard that schedule was changed!!! Will update when possible. Hopefully with a little luck there will be more than 10-15 minutes advance notice.
Sorry for the miscommunication.
However, you might find out how to book your seat for the Osmonds.
Tim: I'm staying tuned...bored with hotels in Branson!!!
Hummmm.....I always did like Donny......
Thanks for keping us posted!
So I can go back to Sports 56??
Also... can you give us a little hint as to what you are talking about???
Just a small tidbit???
Tim,
Do you have ANY idea how many emails I sent out to get people to listen:)??
Thanks for the heads up anyway, although I am wondering what the REAL show was about??
I do not have an update at the moment and am trying to find out what happened. I have to get back ahold of some folks to get all the facts straight.
Sorry, but hey. See ya'll at the Donnie & Marie show next weekend....Man, I sure hope Jimmy is there...
MOM4 said...
Amy,
So GBC has a Wednesday night Worship service, not a prayer meeting? AND a meal??
2:35 PM, April 02, 2007
I can answer this one. We have the meal for $4 from 5 to 6 [better get there by 5:30 if you want food though. 5:45 at the latest. And definity grab your desert early ;-) ]. It is in the faith building. As an aside all the buildings and wings are named Faith, Joy, Love, etc. GBC decided that no building would be named to honor a donor nor a pastor or any person. All building names are for the Glory of God. Amen. I like that although I had no hand in it.
Prayer meeting is at 6pm. Mike Spradlin will lead the prayer time and then he will preach a short sermon on one of the a Psalms. Kinda like a cross between a sermon / Sunday School lesson / classroom course. Very good stuff!
Don't feel like you have to make some major decision on BBC. Just come, eat a meal with your friends, pray some, sing some and hear a good lesson. Like a vacation or something. You are welcome to come. It will do you good. Amen!
"Bro. Steve has the right as pastor to make whatever changes he feels the Lord leading him to make."
Please do not speak of my Lord like this. The Lord does lead anyone to keep a pedophile minister. The Lord does NOT lead anyone to lying, deception, trespassing and beating the sheep. The Lord abhors taking HIS Word and twisting it for personal gain.
You have brought emotions and feelings into almost everyone of your posts about your church. This is very dangerous as our 'feelings' and 'emotions' are flesh and could very well be a deception. The heart is deceitful above all things. We should trust in the Word...not our feelings.
The topic was to have been along the lines of the moral values becoming to a minister and the best practice in enforcing those values within the church.
I may have got the dates messed up in my communications, for some reason that seems to be a problem that haunts me constantly. Can I get a witness? :)
"We are not held accountable for what's done with that money...that's the leadership's responsibility before God. We are responsible to God that we give it however...and the excuse of worrying what happens to that money won't work at the judgement seat."
Who told you that? You surely did not read it in scripture!
So you have no problem giving your money to an organization that calls itself a church yet believes the homosexuality is a lifestyle choice?
You think you are off the hook?
Concerned said,
loveBBC said: "Our responsibility as church members is to give our tithes to the Lord through our church."
This is well plowed ground folks. We have discussed it at length in the archives. There is no scriptural requirement for tithing. The closest you can get is when Paul justifies the offering for the starving church in Jerusalem and that is not a tithe.
Abraham, Melchizedek, Malachi, and even Jesus in Matthew 23 will not justify the Tithe for us Gentiles. Abraham paid Melchizedech because he was a king. Pay close attention to where the rest of the spoils went. (other kings) as was custom in those days. I suggest you study these closely in context and pay especially close attention to whom these people were speaking. (JEWS) Jesus was talking to the Pharisees in Mat 23, rebuking them for not tithing properly. We are not under the Levitical law. See Galations.
Something I have run across since, that adds a great deal to the discussion, is the following:
Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose [is] the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
1:12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; [it is] iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear [them].
Do you suppose He is full of money? One might want to consider one’s tithes in the light of this scripture. Living and acting like the folks in Sodom while trying to appease an angry God with our 10% is a rather odd thing to do. Hmmmm
I suggest a search on “offering” and “abomination” and you come up with a similar picture.
Hebrews 7 is pretty interesting as well.
The only acceptable sacrifice is you. You can find that in Romans 12:1.
"Let me explain something....a church's goal is to reach people for Jesus"
You need to read your Bible. I say that with a heavy heart.
Question about this First Methodist donation...
Umm.. their church burned to the ground. Right? So, as a gesture of Christian faith, we donated money.
Seems to me that after the Tsunami, there were Christian organizations bending over backwards to help out.. and the people that they were helping were primarily what.. buddhist, hindu or muslim, right??
And after Katrina... New Orleans was largely destroyed... at least for a time... and... well... the reputation for that city speaks for itself. Yet we as a church, and other Christian organizations... helped.
So we helped a fellow church that burned to the ground. I think that is commendable.
Ever give money to a "bum"??? I have... knowing full well that some of it will probably go towards alcohol. But my hope and hearts desire was that he'd use some of it, if not all, for a decent meal.
It's the intent... and I think that the intent of the gift to 1st Methodist was to help a church that had just burned to the ground.
Rudi said "The evening performance had maybe 4 to 5 people in the balcony, but not because the downstairs was full. It was sparse again."
I was in the balcony Saturday evening and there were hundreds of people...I will agree that it's the smallest crowd I've seen for a Saturday performance but please get your facts straight. I had a group of 5 just by myself.
"Their continued willingness to stay here is admirable, because again they could easily go somewhere else!"
You really believe that don't you? Just where do you think a pastor who ignored scripture concerning a pedophile minister for 6 months could go and make the kind of money he makes now? Oh, and not preach on Wed nights. There isn't a Baptist church in America who has not heard of Steve Gaines and his pedophile minister at BBC.
This guy is fighting for his income here. If BBC does not work out, all he has left is some liberal seminary teaching post or perhaps an administrative job at the SBC. And he knows it.
Lin, could you please explain this further?
"..believes the homosexuality is a lifestyle choice?"
Just to clearify, are you saying that homosexuality is not a choice???
I want to make sure I understood you right.
"I'm not saying you have to shut this thread down...but I think a little "equal time" would be nice."
Equal time? YOu mean just like at the business meeting?
Gaines has a pulpit.
Ezekiel: Do you happen to remember what thread the discussion of tithes is on? I don't remember that discussion and I'd like to see it.
Thanks for your help!
"Lin, could you please explain this further?
"..believes the homosexuality is a lifestyle choice?"
Just to clearify, are you saying that homosexuality is not a choice???
I want to make sure I understood you right."
homosexuality is a sin. Not a lifestyle choice as some seem to think.
You know exactly what I was referring to...we have been over this quite a bit (the donation to FUMC) and you have been reading the blog for a long time.
Lin, no I did not know what you meant, you said lifestyle choice. CHOICE is the key word that threw me. I know and believe that a homosexual lifestyle is a sin.
I am sure I am not the only person that could have used some clearification on your post.
Upside down -
I didn't say there were 4 or 5 people in the balcony. Those observations came from continuallyamazed whose comments I referenced in my 2:42 post (they are italicized).
There were definitely more than 4 or 5 people in the balcony.
Rudi
springer spaniel said
Umm.. their church burned to the ground. Right? So, as a gesture of Christian faith, we donated money.
Piglet says:
They were insured. Next.
SS said:
Seems to me that after the Tsunami, there were Christian organizations bending over backwards to help out.. and the people that they were helping were primarily what.. buddhist, hindu or muslim, right??
Piglet says:
I don't recall rebuilding any mosques or Buddhist temples....next.
ss said:
And after Katrina... New Orleans was largely destroyed... at least for a time... and... well... the reputation for that city speaks for itself. Yet we as a church, and other Christian organizations... helped.
Piglet says:
Martha Wagley (FUMC pastor) has a bad reputation but I would get her to a doctor if she was bleeding, feed her if she had no food, or find her shelter if her home was destroyed. That did not happen. Next.
ss said:
So we helped a fellow church that burned to the ground. I think that is commendable.
Ever give money to a "bum"??? I have... knowing full well that some of it will probably go towards alcohol. But my hope and hearts desire was that he'd use some of it, if not all, for a decent meal.
Piglet says:
Actually, I would feed the bum before I gave him money.
But that aside, would you rebuild an abortion clinic that burned?
How about a gay bar?
The church was insured. If we want to help the inner city, we have ministries down there. Next.
ss said:
It's the intent... and I think that the intent of the gift to 1st Methodist was to help a church that had just burned to the ground.
Piglet says:
Well, I don't INTEND to allow my tithe dollars to be used for these abominations. I expect the decision makers to be better stewards than this.
I also wonder what ELSE they are doing with God's money but they won't open the books because they don't WANT us to see.
Doesn't bother you, I suppoose.
(offline)
Piglet...your post to SS was brilliant. Extremely well put.
They keep trying to make excuses for excuses. Somebody once told me that an excuse is a lie in disguise.
Ima
memphis says:
Lin, no I did not know what you meant, you said lifestyle choice. CHOICE is the key word that threw me. I know and believe that a homosexual lifestyle is a sin.
SOTL ASKS?
Yet, I wonder, did you stand to vote for the finance committee at church when your leaders did? Did you vote to continue the status quo
for the same men that gave the money to promote a homo agenda from the pulpit at the FUMC church?
IF you did, please do not come in here giving lip service to how you feel about homosexuality and sin. It's hollow.
Please be consistent...
junk99mail says...
I am so glad to hear that you chose to gather with Christians this morning for worship. How was it?
2:01 PM, April 01, 2007
I guess Junk means that attending GBC is gathering with Christians but BBC is not. I have yet to question the salvation of the anti gaines folks but I am beginning to. You question ours daily. I believe many of you have very little joy in your life. You are hung up over a church with 30mm in the bank giving a church 25k. Do you believe that Methodist are not saved or just that one church. Because that pastors beliefs are different than ours on homosexuality is she unsaved? OC made comments comparing the SG supporters to the secular world that supports abortion and gays. That shows how badly wrong you all have it. I would bet 99.6% of the SG Supporters/BBC Members are 100% opposed to gays and abortion. You make these claims without facts, you question our salvation and belief system without facts or even knowing us.
OFG,
If you'd been following the discussions over the past few weeks, SOTL had said she wasn't going to go to any church. "Junk" was merely stating that he was glad she'd chosen to go to "a" church Sunday. Stop trying to put words in people's mouths. What is your point of posting here anyway? All you want to do is argue. Please take it somewhere else!
The toilet said:
I would bet 99.6% of the SG Supporters/BBC Members are 100% opposed to gays and abortion
sotl says:
Yet, i'm sure that those folks voted to keep the finance committee in tact, to keep the same men in force that gave that check to promote the homosexual agenda.
Sorry, but that doesn't fly with me. I watched BBC that day turn liberal. Perhaps you are not yet aware of what happened. You will be soon.
OFT,
You need to go away now. And stay.
NBBCOF
Is a person that accepts Christ at FUMC really saved?
Even though we disagree with their beliefs.
OFG said
That shows how badly wrong you all have it. I would bet 99.6% of the SG Supporters/BBC Members are 100% opposed to gays and abortion. You make these claims without facts, you question our salvation and belief system without facts or even knowing us.
Piglet says:
We're just going by you're continued support and condoning of this donation. It appears that if you do have convictions against these abominations, you are willing to overlook those for SG. Tell you anything?
(I haven't personally questioned your salvation.)
OFT,
Are you dense? You know the answer to that question. Now go away!
ofg said
Is a person that accepts Christ at FUMC really saved?
Even though we disagree with their beliefs.
Piglet says:
Now THAT'S a loaded question.
If they still condone and continue in sin that God abhors, have they really been converted? Jesus saves FROM sin that these folks support.
That's really at the core of all this. The attitude toward sin. It nailed Jesus to the cross. Can we overlook it, excuse it, and be saved?
Yes Trena I am dense...answer the question for me. Piglet you still have not answered either.
Okay, yes. Are you satisfied now? Go away!
NBBCOF
P.S. My name isn't Trena or Jessica.
25k is no 3,000,000 but if one person gets saved...truly saved, was it worth it.
Don't come in here touting how you are against the homosexual agenda while at the same time supporting a pastor and his administration that voted in a finance commmittee that gave the money to promote the agenda.
All you are doing is lip service. When the rubber met the road, you caved. You voted to continue with the same men. How do you know that they will not do the same thing again?
It's hollow talk coming from someone who supports a pastor who not only gave $$$ to support the homosexual agenda, but neither was he appauled with the sin of PW.
So go away with your pursed lips and folded hands. You have voted your conscience. You support the agenda. To say otherwise is a big FAT LIE.
Union Mission is very close to the FUMC. They preach the TRUE word.
Imagine what that donation could have done for that organization?
AND, they don't support homosexuality OR abortion.
Imagine THAT!
ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS.
Giving that money to THAT church spoke VOLUMES!!!
Deny it if you want to, but I am not the one that is going to have to answer for it. You are.
OFG
It depends on whether they are repenting of sin. If they believe the teachings of FUMC, I'm not sure it is possible.
FUMC is teaching that the Bible is not inerrant and that what God calls sin is okay. I don't see this as a sign of a true believer in the Christ of the Bible so I don't think it's so cut and dried.
But a Catholic could be saved despite their teachings so someone at FUMC could be saved despite theirs. It would be a stretch in my opinion.
So......what point, exactly, are you trying to make here? That as long as people are getting saved, we can support sin with our tithes?
sickofthelies said... in reference to OFG
The toilet said:
I'm sorry, but this is wrong. Just because you do not agree with someone, you CANNOT call them names!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You cannot sit here and judge someone else for the way they vote or "support" sin by their vote and then call them "the toilet". Don't you try to spin it by saying somethihng clever. This is out and out WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SOTL, you should apologize, and edit your post to remove that abomination.
OFG,
Of course anyone who truly repents and accepts Christ at FUMC is saved. However, I suggest you pay FUMC a visit. I would bet you could visit for a month of Sundays and not hear anything approaching the gospel being preached. You would hear about the social gospel and civil rights instead. Good luck finding anything approaching historic Christianity at FUMC.
Is the lack of outrage because our people truly do not understand that we gave our money to an apostate church? Not all Methodists are apostate. I've got good Christian friends who belong to Christ United. They would never support the teachings of FUMC because it is a post-Christian church.
Our leaders either knew and did not care or they are accustomed to spending BBC funds so loosely they gave it little thought and absolutely no investigation. This is an indictment on them any way you cut it.
I also can't believe any of you won't ever say anything to SOTL when she does things like this. If you're going to call sin what it is for SG, then call hers what it is too.
Here's the deal:
I am not a theologian. So I am not going to attempt to determine who is saved or not saved.
HOWEVER, i know wrong when I see it.
I do not want to be found guilty of INTENTIONALLY doing wrong.
You want to, go ahead. Support the agenda while screaming that you don't. Voting for those SAME men that gave the check to the church is supporting the agenda. You just don't realize it yet. You are now on a slippery slope. You have shown those men that they will NOT be held accountable.
What's next? A check to NAMBLA
( man boy love association) ?
Hey, you never know..maybe if you give them money, someone will get saved.
overflowing said...
"Do you know for a fact that I support the gay agenda or for that matter that SG does."
Well, obviously the pastor does for several reasons, on being the fact that he kept a confessed HOMOSEXUAL pedophile on staff for 6 months and even after the congregation and authorities found out about it - he STILL wanted to keep him! If that is not support, what is? (That is not to mention the 25K "gift")
ok, umm,
OFG
I'm sorry i called you
" the toilet"
music guy is right. it was uncalled for.
If an unbeliever walks into a church and hears an invitation that says "Come to Jesus. Oh, it's ok, you can still live in your sin, it's ok, He loves you. God's grace is sufficient"
Do you think that person is going to know the real Jesus? Is that person going to be born again with no repentance?
Just some food for thought, friends.
Musicguy,
Many of us have choose to overlook statements made by certain bloggers because we know certain things about them you do not know. SOTL is a victim of child sexual abuse and she has had unreal encounters with BBC personnell and members in recent months. She is entitled to some outrage. It is obvious she is still dealing with a lot of pain. She is a dear sister in Christ and we love her, even if we do not always agree with every word she says.
Also, I've made the point before that I do not feel obligated to respond to every post. I don't even read many posts. I don't have a clue what you are even upset at SOTL about because I am skimming the blog. Certain bloggers, like OFG and earlier today Mr. Calcote, get my blood pressure up, so I respond to them.
Most of you seem to think our pastor and staff are the skum of the earth.
You had better be right...because if you are not...may God have mercy on you for the way you talk about these people!
SOTL,
I love you and continue to pray for you. You've been through enough without being attacked on a blog.
SOTL I would agree...you spew venom above and beyond most others here. I hope you are able to resolve the anger you obviously feel.
socwork: I tried to make that point earlier. Thank you for doing a better job of it.
proverbs,
Thank you for your defense of me.
However, Music Guy is 100% right.
I should not have called ofg what I called him.
I would be opposed to makeing FUMC an annual contribution like we do with Mid America, plant churches etc.....
I do think their is a big difference.
Anytime concernedsbcer! :)
loveBBC: You are standing in judgment of one you do not even know while admonishing some on here to not judge those whom they do know and know their deeds.
LOVEBBC
The things that I discuss on here are not just my opinion.
You do not seem to understand that the pastor has done these things that we discuss.
I don't think you understand this.
You continue to think that we just disagree on style..or, the color of the carpet, or something as insignificant as that.
The pastor has ignored sin, time and time again.
That does not bother you?
It bothers me.
You'll have to take it up with Jesus that it did not bother you.
I, however, do not plan to have that conversation with him.
overflowinggrace said...
25k is no 3,000,000 but if one person gets saved...truly saved, was it worth it.
6:19 PM, April 02, 2007
OFG,
Once again, God's standard is obedience , not the end result. The end DOES NOT justify the means. If it was God's desire for this donation to be made, it would not matter if none were saved and the donation was made. God does not need us to manipulate results for His sake.
This was yet another decision that was admittedly without prayer. Another character flaw.
The purpose of this donation was public relations not Gods will.
The theme at BBC is appearance. How will this make me/us look. What does this have to do with God's desire for His people?
Whoops, time to close this "open" meeting. I know we promised to listen to all the concerns and questions, but we know what is good for these DUMB people. TRUST US! FOLLOW US! They feel it was okay to MANIPULTE (wow, now here is a new pattern of conduct) the end of the meeting because it would have looked bad to do as they promised, so it is okay. The end justifies the means. Brian Miller could not have lied because the end result is what is important.
When people give these kinds of explanations for covering sin, indiscretions, etc. think about your children tryng to use these same examples to cover their own sin...
Mom/Dad, I know I missed curfew and was disobedient, but what if one person got saved? would't it had been worth it?
Mom/Dad, I know I should not have gone clubbing tonight and drinking with the guys, but what if one person got saved? Wouldn't it be worth it?
I know we broke the law by treaspassing, but Mom and dad, what if me and my three friensd would have restored a brother? Wouldn't it had been worth it?
I don't know about you, but I didn't just fall off the turnip truck.... heh...heh....heh....
hey "lovebbc,"
Is it "hate" to call out sin when one sees it? I mean, Jesus did this, Paul did, Nathan did - were they "spewing hate?"
Sick,
I'm used to being called toilet on here. Apology accepted.
Proverbs,
Please give me one sermon that SG has preached that is out of line.
Hey OFG,
I know I'm not Proverbs, but how 'bout the sermon the night of DC's ordination about "attacking the Holy Spirit?"
That was pretty out of line (and out of context, for that matter).
bbc ref,
Your folks wanted the church to give 3mm to Mid America without any prayer or verification of need.
MABS leader has helped to split two churches.
socwork,
I wasn't there but I will listen.
OFG said: "MABS leader has helped to split two churches."
I have tried to stay out of the fray with you but this is low even for you. It is a pure lie and you should be ashamed of yourself. MS is one of the more honest people I have ever met; his convictions are standing on the solid rock of scripture. We are battling against evil and for the case of Christ and that's exactly what he's done.
As Piglet would say, "Next."
There is just one last point I'd like to make. Please don't misunderstand me. I am not defending what Bro. Paul did, and I am not defending his attempts to cover it up. I am also not defending those who gained knowledge and chose for a length of time not to take action...although I have some thoughts to consider there.
Having said that...How many of you who were/are long time BBC members/attenders had a relationship with Bro. Paul, enjoyed his ministry, and/or called him a friend......and now don't even count him as a fellow human being??
Bro. Paul screwed up very badly. There's no question about that. He was involved in a sin pattern that the majority of us cannot understand nor relate to. We are greatly saddened for the victims.....and we should be.....but we should also continue to love and pray for Bro. Paul....because God still loves him.
My point....those who considered him a friend should still try and be a friend. What we want for Bro. Paul is NOT what he deserves....because he deserves the same thing we do....hell. What we want is for God to change his heart, forgive him, and have mercy on him. I hope Bro. Paul has finally come to the place where he is truly repentant and accepting of the consequences of his sin. I hope his heart is changed...and he is right with the Lord. I praise God is that has happened...and you should too!
Does that mean I believe he should be restored on earth to where he was before...of course not! Sin has its consequences. But...it just bothers me to know that so many of his friends have abandoned him. Our Lord never abandoned him.
ofg,
Just how did Mike do that? Becuase he said that IF a pastor knew that a pedophile was on staff, and did nothing about it, that he should step down?
Do you have a problem with that philosophy? Do you think that a pastor, who knowingly allows a pedophile to remain on staff should NOT step down?
Do you think that seminarians should be taught that it is perfectly ok to harbor a pedophile?
Oh wait, you don't have to answer that question. WE already know that you dont' have a problem with how SG handled it...and you don't feel that he should have stepped down...everything's just hunky dorey...
Too bad that SG didn't get his way and allow PW to come back on staff..you, no doubt, would have supported that, too.
WHICH CHILD WERE YOU WILLING TO TAKE A CHANCE WITH?????
offline
Steve Gaines has said that he has searched the Scriptures and can find nothing which disqualifies Paul Williams from ministry. He believes that we have to be careful with the standard found in Scripture because no one can live up to them. He calls the biblical qualifications for ministry mere "guidelines."
That, my friend, is a liberal!
Yes, please check out the sermon the night Coombs was ordained. It was a doozy. He absolutely tortured the text to make his points. I was embarrassed and even afraid for him. You can't mock the Lord the way he did and get away with it for long.
OFG said,
MABS leader has helped to split two churches.
Really??? Would you like to back this up please?
To Mike Spradlin, if you are reading this:
I love ya man!!!
Ok, now i'm really offline
Sick
YOU ARE A LIAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2000 Baptist Statement
"New challenges to faith appear in every age. A pervasive anti-supernaturalism in the culture was answered by Southern Baptists in 1925, when the Baptist Faith and Message was first adopted by this Convention. In 1963, Southern Baptists responded to assaults upon the authority and truthfulness of the Bible by adopting revisions to the Baptist Faith and Message . The Convention added an article on "The Family" in 1998, thus answering cultural confusion with the clear teachings of Scripture. Now, faced with a culture hostile to the very notion of truth, this generation of Baptists must claim anew the eternal truths of the Christian faith.
Your committee respects and celebrates the heritage of the Baptist Faith and Message, and affirms the decision of the Convention in 1925 to adopt the New Hampshire Confession of Faith, "revised at certain points and with some additional articles growing out of CERTAIN NEEDS . . . ." We also respect the important contributions of the 1925 and 1963 editions of the Baptist Faith and Message."
What are "certain needs" that determine the need for revisions?
The 1925 statement says: "salvaion is wholly of grace" following the New Hampshire Confession of 1833 and "through the mediatorial office of the Son of God." Grace is freely given by God to the sinner according to his will.
In the 1963 and 2000 statements the Grace of god is freely recveived by the sinner. This is a giant theological leap. On one hand God freely gives according to his will and on the other the sinner freely receives according to his will with the help of the evangelist giving the call.
The "certain need" is for the gospel to be transitioned to a seeker friendly message without the offensive parts of the New Hampshire Confession that frightens the sinner. This paves the way for massive evangelistic efforts that appeal to the sinner.
The result is Spiritless evangelism and easy-believism. The Spirit of Grace is insulted and as Bellevue is learning it is a dangerous thing to fall into the hands of a living God.
"Please give me one sermon that SG has preached that is out of line."
Oooh, let me!
September 24, 2006 p.m.
October 8, 2006 p.m. with a couple of shots at the beginning of the a.m. sermon.
October 22, 2006 p.m.
November 26, 2006 p.m.
December 17, 2006 a.m.
There have been at least 2 or 3 this year that I can think of, but the dates start to run together after a while. That's a start.
loveBBC: We have a "rule" here that names of perpetrators and victims do not need to be mentioned. People around the world are reading this and the dear victim needs to maintain his dignity and privacy as much as possible. Please re-submit your posts leaving out the names that shouldn't be listed. I would love to respond.
Thanks.
OFG,
"My Folks"? Please explain?
I am not in a club.
NASS: I am offended by the 7:05 post.
OFG,
You are through here. Leave and don't come back. Anything you post from now on will be deleted.
I'm asking everyone to stop responding to this person. NASS will use the little trashcans to take care of the problem.
NBBCOF
I apologize to those who were offended that I used the name in that post. I hope you saw that the spirit of that post was not to belittle that person, or be insensitive to the victim(s).
OFG,
Steve wanted PW back. Who knows if you would have agreed with that. That is irrelevant. The fact remains he told PW his job was safe because he believes his sin was "under the blood." He does not believe in the biblical standards for ministry. They are "guidelines" that no one can live up to, which means they can be ignored.
You are immature, illogical, and lack a fundamental grounding in Scripture.
My apolgies to you, NASS. I will work on ignoring the trolls.
Hebrews 10:29-31
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
NASS,
What is hypocritcal "dribble."
Is that dribbling while condeming another for dribbling? I don't get it.
Wonder what guidelines Gaines has failed to live up to that aren't yet public. Hmmmmmmm
tn lizzie 200, i couldn't agree with what you said more, in your morning post. You put into words just how I feel.
concernedsbcer, I e-mailed you.
(offline til later)
NASS, if I had known you were a hypocritical dribbler I would never have started reading your blog. You really should have disclosed this months ago.
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