Fortunately for GBC, they had a good set of bylaws, and BBC does not.
Obviously there are differences in the two churches, but there are many similarities as well. Compare and contrast those here.
Remember to sign the Petition to Call Bellevue Baptist Church into an Open Business Meeting and forward the link to your fellow Bellevue members.
567 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 567 of 56745
Don't you need another IV?
Run along and get hooked up.
Karen,
And others who are interested. There are several places you can learn about new age, emergent church, contemplative prayer/spirituality, etc. Watchman has given many of the links, books, etc. out and they are very good. I have read them all in the past two years and agree with Watchman on these posts. As I am sure Lin does. A good place to go and read all this pertaining to any of these movements which are pertinent to the issues at BBC is lighthousetrails. Deborah Dombrowski and her husband are vigilant in their pursuit of all this darkness invading the Body of Christ. Another one I simply cannot say enough good things about is Paul Proctor and you can find his writings here. Please browse around Paul’s website and find all the topics and read for yourself. Bob DeWaay's ministry is also at the top of the list and you can find his website here. John MacArthur ranks right up there with these others and you can find his website here. He has several books I recommend, his lastest at the top of my list is The Truth War-Fighting for Certainty in an Age of Deception. It is a given for exactly where we are today. Ashamed of the Gospel and Hard to Believe are also good. My husband is reading it now...as soon as he is through with it, I will. But I have read enough of it to know that it would help you very much in trying to understand what is happening at Bellevue and how to cope with it. There are many others out there...but these will get you off to a good start and they are so very credible, which is so very important. There are a couple of others...Running Against the Wind by Brian Flynn which you can get from lighthouse or One Place Ministries and Ray Yungen's "A Time of Departing" which you can also get there. Here is Bryan Flynn's website. As you begin to learn about all of this, check the authors of these new age, contemplative, etc. authors to see where there books are sold. You will find them in Lifeway among other supposedly Christian book stores. Lifeway is selling books that teach contemplative prayer, etc. by authors such as Rob Bell, Richard Foster, Brian McLaren, etc. Unless you are researching this, you have no idea what we are dealing with in today’s world. People are content to sit back and let this slide by…and they haven’t a clue. It is our responsibility to stand for Christ…we must. We must stay informed. Hopefully these suggestions I have offered plus what Watchman and Lin are offering should get you where you need to be to be educated on all this.
Karen...this was why I was so interested in the alledged labyringh in the prayer center at Bellevue. It is, of course, centering prayer. Very, very dangerous.
Ima
lindon said...
Charlie...you have more mail...sorry!
REPLY:
So do you.
454
When you and yours shut up and LISTEN for a change, we won't have to say the same thing over, and over, and over again.
Or better yet, have a REAL meeting instead of the sideshow we had!!
Who are you people kidding?!!
Think Gaines will answer for his repeated LYING thru his TEETH??
Mike Bratton: If you are lurking for material to cut and paste - that was for you, too. :)
Why did the church amend its charter in February?
Why are some staff members still denying there was a plan for a quick adjournment of the business meeting? David Coombs and Steve Gaines have admitted it.
Why have Chip Freeman and Mark Dougharty been placed on paid leave?
Please check with David Coombs for verification of this post.
But NAAAAASSS.....it's such a great stress reliever.....:(
Piglet,
Those were the days!!
We were more blessed than we could ever have hoped for.
Bellevue Baptist Church once glorifed God in all ways.
SOTL
What happened to 45? Did you see where he went? :0)
Ima, I broke my 'no Christian books', pledge and bought Truth War (from Amazon...not Lifeway...Can you believe that!!)
I am only through a few chapters but something really popped out at me. He is teaching out of Jude which is all about false teachers and apostacy in the church but he talks about several NT churches that are referenced in the Letters and then points to the seven churches in Revelations...5 out of 7 had apostacy and were either on the brink of being given over or already gone. 5 out of 7!! (Be a Berean and check this out)
He makes the point that if 5 out of 7 were like this by the time Revelations was written, what is it really like today?
I had never thought of it like that and it sure made me want to get deeper in the Word!!
"Why did the church amend its charter in February?"
I'm sure the "church" didn't amend anything...perhaps the massa's did..behind the iron curtain of course.
WAIT JUST A MINUTE:
Chip Freeman is on paid leave, TOO? LOL!!!
WELL WELL WELL...here Chip Freeman sold his soul to the devil...denied that he even knew Mark Sharpe...went back to work at BBC under suspicious circumstances...
AND NOW HE HAS NO JOB?????
I think he is getting EXACTLY what he deserves!!!
Hey Chip, Maybe the UGLY MUG will take you back.
4545 said
A "real meeting piglet?? Like the one in the petition? Please spare me. If they ever agreed to something like that, I might leave.
Piglet says:
Don't get my hopes up. :)
No really, what's wrong with a fair meeting that hears all sides and handles all business?
piglet wrote:
"But NAAAAASSS.....it's such a great stress reliever.....:("
Might I suggest Christian Yoga or walking the labyrinth as alternatives?
piglet,
I think he went to get another IV bag of SG so that he can come back here and fight another day.
SOTL
I think you just headlined on Mikes blog.....
piglet wrote:
"But NAAAAASSS.....it's such a great stress reliever.....:("
Might I suggest Christian Yoga or walking the labyrinth as alternatives?
Piglet says:
I prefer whack-a-mole.
4545
BEWARE! When steve takes down the portraits of the former pastors and replaces them with his pictures you know your there. He takes such a good picture doesn't he.
Piglet said:
SOTL
I think you just headlined on Mikes blog.....
Sotl says:
" Tis good to be famous" :)
4545,
If you look on the IDC web site time line, does any of the factual non-disputed information bother you? If feel forgiveness and are comfortable moving on with Steve Gaines then so be it. But can't you see that asking for accountability, transparency, and an opportunity to have concerns addressed is not unreasonable in light of events, and that leadership that had nothing to hide would be anxious to grant them that opportunity?
Why written ballot? Why by members only? Because we don't know how large the Dodds family is and they will vote in different counties if necessary.
Independant Moderator: Brian Miller? OK....right....
By the way there are differences between what is on the petition and on the web site here.
New BBC Open Forum said...
Just a reminder.
REPLY:
Ya stole MY JOB!!!!!!!
Chip & Mark on paid leave??
Is the FBI and IRS coming in and nobody wants Chip & Mark around??
45 says:
REPLY: In all ways?? Are you joking?? Dr. Rogers and Bellevue did many of the very things yu and others have bashed Brother Steve for. Meetings, spending, privacy, and on and on. So it was good then and bad now?? The same exact things??
SOTL says:
ARE YOU KIDDING???????
I do NOT recall Dr. Rogers climbing a iddy bitty fence.
I do not recall Dr. R. going to Union City and slamming his own sheep.
I do not recall Dr. R. giving $25,000 to an apostate church.
I do not recall DR.R. hiding a pedophile on staff.
I could go on and on.
Tim,
They probly have some dead family members that they could dredge up for the vote.
"The dude even lies about his lies."
Reminds me of someone....
We had 8 years of lies about his own lies in spite of my vote against...twice. I was exhausted after those 8 years dealing with the continuous creepy lies with the insincere lip biting.
I can't even imagine dealing with that again...voluntarily.
But Clinton winning 2x is proof that people will believe what someone says over what they actually do.
4545,
It's called, INTEGRITY AND HONESTY,
two very important components, among others, missing today.
How long have you been at Bellevue Baptist Church, surely not long or you would recognize the difference.
sheepless,
I'm starting to think that 45 has been at BBC since September of 05.
amy,
You have more mail.
sure ya have
SOTL,
Me too. It was 9/11/05
lin,
Wait till MRS. C. gets elected. With MRS. P. as Speaker.
Well, SG does seem to run at the first sign of questioning....remind you of anyone? numbers maybe.....?????
Charlie,
Must you speak of nightmarish things so late at night? :)
4545,
Although you say you knew Dr. Rogers, it is obvious to me you did not take many of his sermons to heart.
I bet you revel in the weak pap being preached these days
SOTL,
Dearest Derrick has been at it again too! I thought he had had enough trouble after all the mess he got dumped on his daddy. One would think the little feller would have wised up by now!
Hey Derrick, what you put on the mikie blog is visible to us too!
Are you ready for ALL the truth?
Is Derrick hooked up to the SG IV?
"Wait till MRS. C. gets elected. With MRS. P. as Speaker. "
Charlie, I fully expect she will be our next President. Because...they do 'whatever' it takes to win. They re-invent themselves and people believe it.
Don't forget a post for Der Spinmiester Bill at the UN...it is a guarantee.
We get the leaders we deserve. Because we no longer care about truth. Only feelings and emotions.
BTW, Please note that i have NOT mentioned what is in that SG IV..
Some might suggest that it's a favorite beverage, but I did NOT say that!!!
Sally,
Is it true that Chip and Mark are on paid leave, if so when did this happen and why?
Just visited the BombasticBrattonBlog..ahh, it's comforting to know some things never change...such rantings about law-breaking...wonder why he didn't rant over the law-breaking at BBC?...and what about that comment on how the dissenters blew their opportunity to respond in a "mature" manner at the press conference, aka, "business meeting"?...if that weren't so pathetic it would be funny...Bratton, my kid could figure out what was going on there, bud...I've been giving you too much credit.
Chip must have received a calling from The Ugly Mug again.
What or Whom is the Ugly Mug?
AOG,
Maybe Mikie will visit Gardendale and they will wise him up to the true SG.
Worth repeating for those that missed it earlier.
Scared4U said...
Folks...this is really scary. I am not a member of your church, nor am I a Baptist. I am a member of the church of Christ and I know we have our differences, but what I see on this business meeting tape of the parliamentary adjournment of your Business Meeting, would be transparent to a 4 year old. How do men who profess to be Christians treat members of their congregation so poorly? Never, I mean, never seen such blatant beating down of congregation and taking complete control of church business. Of course, the COC has no "committees", "business leaders", or "chairmen", so all of this is new to me, but it is a VERY SCARY thing to see played out. I knew SG from another congretation and I knew he was a control freak, but this is UNBELIEVABLE. God bless, and if you can't get relief.....we have lots of room and you can even enjoy "old timey" hymns sang acapella, baptism for salvation (the very moment you proclaim the Lord Jesus Christ), and the Lord's Supper EVERY Sunday!!!
12:22 PM, April 11, 2007
lindon,
You ole coffee trader you! The Ugly Mug is a coffee company - local to Memphis and owned by Christians. Their coffee is VERY good! Check them out online. (not meaning to give free publicity, but hey, they do have good coffee)
"The Ugly Mug is a coffee company - local to Memphis and owned by Christians."
ha! I thought it may be related to the lunch box. :o)
Lindon said...
What or Whom is the Ugly Mug?
REPLY:
Boy, you are up NAWTH!!! LOL
http://www.uglymugcoffee.com/
allofgrace,
I would guess that you have given more credit than I ever have. It always reminds me of an 8th grader doing a book report with a dictionary on side and a thesaurus on the other. Except the 8th grader is more credible.
HA! - no lunchbox there (I don't think) - I hope not!
But we are learning some good things about the "lunchbox" scene - hopefully they will be available to print soon:)
45 said:
Sally: I listen to Dr. Rogers everyday. He is the best preacher I have ever heard.
sotl says:
And yet, he can speak of SG and AR in the same breath.
That's just sad...no, wait, it's pathetic.
Lindon,
The ugly mug, manufactures coffee.
Chip left Bellevue, went to work there for a week or two and magically came back to Bellevue just as the requests to open the books and questions about credit card use by Steve Gaines, etc started to heat up.
You have to wonder if BBC got him back to keep him close and keep their confidences. If he has been put on paid leave or left, it was probably not without a package deal and a confidentialty agreement.
mom4,
Ugly Mug isn't just local to Memphis any more. They have expanded.
Ok, folks, can you handle it without me? I need to go to bed.
OFFLINE
:)
Nite SOTL. Sleep well and know that you are loved.
MISGUIDED GUIDANCE FROM ABOVE
guidance from above
We just have Starbucks....everywhere...on every corner....making gazillions....on every latte.
I met my cousin there the other day and he said, 'My dad would spin in his grave if he knew I was spending 4 bucks on a cup of coffee'!
Thanks for the link, Charlie...it looks like a fun place. I sure hope the latte's are cheaper there.
AOG
I was there, too. It seems that Derrick is offended that anyone might stoop to the same level as the leadership.....imagine anyone sinking that low.
lindon said, "Ima, I broke my 'no Christian books', pledge and bought Truth War (from Amazon...not Lifeway...Can you believe that!!"
Response: Hey girl...I am so proud of ya! And...Ordering your book from Amazon instead of getting it from Lifeway? Can I believe that? Sure can...I did the exactly same thing. And next day after I ordered it...I get a note from MacArthur's camp that they are sending me a free book! Can you believe that one!!! Let me tell you something...I have no intention of ever buying anything from Lifeway ever again! I had just as soon buy from Satan.
I am getting bulletins from the book. Charles is reading it first and you know how people will do you...he comes and reads it to me when he finds something he just can't keep to himself! When he gets through, it is mine!
Yes on getting deeper into the Word. That is where I want to go too.
Ima
SOTL
G'nite!
tim,
I try to give anyone the benefit of the doubt...but of late all the pablum spewed by the "SG can do no wrong" crowd has reached maximum density with me...they can break all the laws they want, their supporters come here and spew their own hatred, but guys like Bratton keep churning out the "hate-filled gossip" tune...you know, that one verse, one note, played on a one-string guitar tune?...nauseating no long gives justice to the description.
I love the sacred sandwich!!
nite all. Grace and Peace of our Savior to you.
It's "Bedtime for Bonzo" also.
Ciao.
I respect the serious tenor of your discussions tonight, but I also have a couple of pressing questions...so I will be brief and scuttle along.
First, while I am a highly trained expert in the medical field, molded by the finest cyberprofessors that Mexico City Community College Medical School has to offer, I am not so in the realm of computers and internet provider services. With that said, when I check my email, there is a spam 'folder' that has the number 25 in parentheses. Do they send you the cans of spam, or do you have to go and pick them up at AOL? And if you do have to pick them up, could someone give me a ride? Someone put an orange metal contraption on the one of the wheels of the Squire...she's parked over at the Shoney's on Sycamore. It must be some teenage prank perpetrated by someone who is obviously envious that my professional success affords me such lavish perks as my Squire. I suppose it serves me right for flaunting.
As my exterminator, Don Spraid, once told me: "Money is not the key to happiness...but it does come in handy when the MPD finds out that you have 500 feet of extension cord running to an outlet behind the garage of the guy 3 houses down to power your home, and when confronted, you try to run, only to be caught and beat so unmercifully about the face and torso with batons, that your only thought is 'I wish they would have just shot me'. Truer words have never been spoken, exterminator Don, never.
William T. Loney
Sheepless,
According to Bellevue staff, Chip and Mark are on leave. I'll refer you to David Coombs for the details. He seems to be the only one with real power now.
If he doesn't care about biblical truth, we are in trouble.
David, do you care? Would you hide the truth or tell lies to cover for Steve Gaines? Lots of us want to know who you really are.
M.D., of course
Dr. Loney,
I have that same problem with that Spam. As a matter of fact I called AOL and asked them how I could get the Spam. They said to just click on that button and I could get rid of it. I told them I didn't want to get rid of it, I wanted to keep it.
You are not going to believe what they told me next. They told me to click on the "not Spam" button. Now I suppose that means that you get the Hormel stuff and I guess that would be ok. Afterall meat byproducts are meat byproducts but Spam always seems to add that extra touch of something extra to their by products.
Anyway, I never did get my 25 cans. You can bet your bottom dollar if I got 25 cans of Spam all at one time, that I would fire up the grill and have the whole neighborhood over. Maybe even break out some coat hangers for the kids to roast their Spam with.
Well, anyway, please let me know if you find out how to get it. It would surely be blessing if you did.
Thanks,
Tim
P.S. I think you are the same Bill Loney that is my uncle. He was always catching colds and stayed so wrapped up all the time that we called him hotdog when I was a kid. Just checkin'.
At 10:11 PM, April 11, 2007
Lindon said...
I am conflicted...my state was half yankee and half rebel in the war of Northern Agression and Southern rebellion.
junk99mail says ...
Somehow I just KNEW you were in Kentucky!!
Yo there, Doc of Glock,
How was your spankin', on D cell block?
Did you filter your coffee through a smelly sweat sock?
Did they spank you so bad that you cannot walk?
(you finish the rest of the rap)
Tim,
Thanks for the info. You sound like a 'Loney' man to me. Us spam connoisseurs are a rare breed indeed. Just the mention of neighborhood spam roasts take me back to another time...as a child, when mama Loney was preparing Thanksgiving dinner, she would always let me come out early from my crawlspace under the front porch and let me lick the spam can clean of all the gelatin like substance that remained. I know she could of used all of it in basting the spurkey, but she would always leave a lil' bit extra just for me. Oh, how the house would be filled with that pleasant spurkey aroma as it cooked, kinda like a tirefire. And after dinner, as I lay in my crawlspace under the porch, staring up at the gaps in the porch planks, thinking it couldn't get any better, mama Loney would spoil me by dropping down Cousin Phel's half eaten moonpie, and she would even remove most of his moustache hair. Oh, nostalgia lane, thou art too seldom traveled. Good times Tim...good times.
William T. Loney, MD
Well Dr. Loney, I've got to hit the hay. All this spam talk has got me really hankerin' for a Spam & cheese omlet. Especially the way that gramma used to make it with the cottage cheese. Those chunky parts get really good and chunky when you heat 'em up and my mouth is waterin' just thinkin' bout it. I know what's for breakfast in the mornin'.
Maybe you should stop by and we could make some spam gravy too. I can't quite remember if we used spinach spaghetti noodles in that or if it was just the onion stems from the lawn clippings. Oh well either way you know it'll be good.
Night Uncle Bill Loney. See you in the morning.
Hey, I know who might buy your "loney." They seem to have bought a lot of "loney" already...
the GAINESITES! (you know... as in Amorites, Hittites, mosquitobites...)
Just a thought.
oc,
or should I say eminem?
No word from Malik and the rest of the South Memphis Crip club. They are probably busy with a membership drive or something.
The forehead 'tat' is not so sore today. But I wonder if it will do harm to my professional 'mystique'?
I suppose that's why they gave me this neat little knit skullcap, you know, to cover up the tat while I was seeing patients.
Anyway, asa lama laka.
William T. Loney, MD
Chairs, (pardon my dyslexia)
You are mistaken. The great Loney name is not for sale, but we could discuss a lease agreement.
As for the GAINESITES, that is a common and quite painful condition brought on when one has been forced to consume too much poorly prepared muscular tissue of the male bovine.
WLT, M.D.
(did you figure it out?)
Warning:
To residents in the east Memphis corridor.
There is a peeping tom on the loose, as I was just peeped, and what's worse, I had yet to clothe myself since my customary 'paper towel dabbing w/the leftover dishwater' bath I had just finished. I feel so violated!!
He will be easy to recognize though. He is wearing all black, and was throwing up as he ran away, yelling "O good god noooo!, O good god noooo!...please death, come now, I beg you!" I think he must have started to feel sorry for his crime or something. Well, be on the lookout.
please, let's work together, and help take a bite out of crime! woof woof!
WLT, M.D.
Paul Proctor says:
"When we focus our affection on a dying world instead of the Living Word, we ourselves become susceptible to its power and influence and over the course of time are seduced by it into compromising our own convictions until we tolerate, then accommodate, then approve, then imitate, then embrace and finally love the very world we were saved FROM. By deception, attrition, peer-pressure and self-gratification we fall prey to sheepish-looking wolves roaming the herd, twisting the truth of scripture into ear-itching lies that transform gullible "seekers" into global serfs instead of godly servants. These charlatans can’t just come right out and tell us to "love the world" because far too many would then recognize their heresy. So, they cloak the lie in fluffy CGM psycho-lingo to avoid setting off any discernment alarms and instruct us instead to "develop a heart for the world".
When SG says "If you don't hear anything here today know this, God loves you, God loves the sinner. Sinners freely receive, everyone can be saved", you know that he is using CGMs to be seeker friendly.
The sin of the leadership at Bellevue is the result of the motivations of the hearts and that is the problem. The motivations of the heart dictates the course of actions. If the sins are the problems then all we have to do is alter the behavior and we all kn ow that is not that easy.
Why do the leaders do what they do? If a servant beats his fellow servants and eats and drinks to drunkedness it is because he believes that his lord delays his comming and he is presently unaccountable. While the servants who are being beaten have their problems the servant's problem is his beliefs.
What are Bellevue's leadership beliefs that are the cause of the sins?
Watching History asks:
What are Bellevue's leadership beliefs that are the cause of the sins?
SOTL says:
Two things:
1) money
2) greed
SOTL,
Mailman's at your door.
Somebody tell me for sure: Is Chip Freeman on paid leave? If so, his secretary just lied to me. I called the church and asked for him and was transferred to "Support Services" where I asked for him again. She said he was unavailable and I asked when he'd be back. She said "he's got meetings back to back". I said I'd call him back.
So, please clarify for me if Chip is on leave. Thanks!
karen
Hi, Karen. Check your mail. :)
Hi everyone - I'm not a member of BBC, but I have a family member who is. Mike Bratton (I call him Michael) is my older brother.
Karen - I remember your name from Michael's Memphis State / BSU days, so maybe you have some recollection of his annoying little sister! (I did my job very well!)
Anyway, I have a quick question. I've seen reference being made here to a David Smith who resigned from BBC last year. Is this the same David Smith who came from Colonial Baptist? He was my youth minister there in the 80's. Just wondering.
michelle mann said...
Anyway, I have a quick question. I've seen reference being made here to a David Smith who resigned from BBC last year. Is this the same David Smith who came from Colonial Baptist? He was my youth minister there in the 80's. Just wondering.
REPLY:
Yes, David Smith was Minister of Youth at Colonial in 85-86.
Thanks, Charlie - I thought so. Do you guys know why he resigned?
Hey Michelle,
I vaguely remember Mike having a sister - you're younger than me I think (I'm 39). I don't even remember how I met Mike in the 1st place, but he did graciously take me to a sorority banquet at Union.
David Smith is now on staff at Germantown Baptist and I'm not sure where he came from, but I do know he is married to Gina Bicknell (Curt's sister). He's a wonderful person; always smiling and truly a nice guy.
karen
Karen - did you attend Union University? You mentioned a sorority banquet - what sorority? I have a couple of close friends with whom I grew up who were involved in "greek life" there, but I can't recall the name of the sorority. Do the names Hollye Newsom or Suzy O'Daniel ring any bells for you?
I am 38 years old, by the way - I'll be 39 in July. So you're not that much older than I am!
About David Smith, he was a great leader for our youth group. I'll admit, we challenged him at every turn and he definitely had his hands full with us. But we all grew very close with eachother and with the Lord. I have some wonderful memories (and pictures!)
Not to minimize the many issues and discussions raised on this blog, but I think we all need to keep in mind the most important reason Bellevue needs a business meeting in which all members can vote on the most pressing matter ... which is, of course, finally, and once and for all, voting Sanjaya off America Idol!
"Thanks, Charlie - I thought so. Do you guys know why he resigned?"
Michelle,
David did not resign. Like many others, there are circumstances surrounding his departure that are in question. He did nothing to prompt his removal. All those that have left have had to sign a non-disclosure/confidentiality agreement in order to receive their severance.
He is enjoying his employ at GBC.
Michelle,
I did go to Union in 1986-1976 then again in 1988-1989 (I was flighty back then!)
I pledged Zeta Tau Alpha, but had to drop because I transferred to MSU (see, I was flighty!)
The names you mentioned don't sound familiar to me. I was at Union when Dr. Barefoot was president and Steve Jett played basketball (he's now a minister in Jackson, I think). They also taught "the Babylonian Myth" theory in my Old Testament class - this was before the TN Baptist Assn shook things up and it went back to being conservative.
karen
junk99mail said...
Not to minimize the many issues and discussions raised on this blog, but I think we all need to keep in mind the most important reason Bellevue needs a business meeting in which all members can vote on the most pressing matter ... which is, of course, finally, and once and for all, voting Sanjaya off America Idol!
Sanjaya is destined to win. It's the "AntiAmericanIdol" vote.
Rumor has it that, since next week is Country week, Sanjaya will perform She Thinks My Tractor's Sexy and the Toby Keith smash hit "Who's Your Daddy."
Unconfirmed rumor, that is.
Karen said...
Michelle,
I did go to Union in 1986-1976 ...
karen
How did you pull that off???
Sorry... couldn't resist... :) :)
"a non-disclosure/confidentiality agreement"
Is this normal procedure for a church?
ima,
That is a good question. The men that left cannot speak about anything they know went on prior to their departure. That is why we wanted the open meeting with protections in place for these men - to get to the truth. As it stands now, they legally have to withold information that may be damaging to the leadership, but informative to the congregation. My question is that if the leadership is on the up and up - why do they need protection from what a disgruntled employee would say (not that these men are disgruntled, but they all left under dark circumstances.
This is a practice in the business world, but not in the Christian community.
Springer,
I did go to Union in 1986-1976 ...
karen
How did you pull that off???
It's a gift! :)
I went to Union in 1986-1987
ima and mom4,
There was another resignation by a minister in the last week or so and he refused to sign the agreement - thus, he didn't get a severence package.
karen
Hey y'all,
I'm going in for another nerve block this afternoon - for those of you keeping count, this is #3 - so pray that is goes well. Thanks!
Also, mom really enjoyed choir practice last night at GBC and dad estimated that 60% of those in prayer meeting were BBC members. Thanks to GBC for making my parents and the rest of the BBC refugees so welcome. FWIW, there was talk last night on the blog about Mrs. Rogers attening GBC for Easter; she was in prayer meeting at GBC last night as well.
karen
mom4,
Thanks for answering that question. This is a bit stunning. There must be some kind of legal ramification here somehow. I certainly do not know the policy of the church in reference to dismissal, termination of employment, severance package, or anything relating to these matters. Do you know what the terms are for being eligible for a severance benefit package upon leaving the employment of the church? Are all employees of BBC entitled to this? Or is it just certain people, ministers for example? Were these people not entitled to their severance package without signing this nondisclosure/confidentiality agreement. I worked in a medical setting for years where confidentialy was a priority, and I signed an agreement similar to this at the onset of my employment there...not at the close of it. But I cannot imagine having to sign something like this in a church??? And especially upon departure from it! So they are in effect saying that these people don't get their money unless they keep their mouths shut...and having to sign something to that effect so that if they do say something they can be sued? Were they entitled to money upon their departure as a norm? This whole thing is bizarre. What are the answers? If these guys did speak out...what legal trouble are they in? This is not making good sense.
ima,
You like that one - try this: There was a minister on staff that resigned to do an "outside ministry on his own". Not only was his "resignation" speech written by a Steve Gaines staff member, but this minister was handed a check for $1,000 during the evening service as a "thank you; we'll miss you" gift. On Monday morning, a secretary called this minister and asked for the $1,000 check back plus $400 to pay for the continuation on the minister's insurance coverage. So much for "thank you; we'll miss you", huh?
FYI, I called the church again and if Mark Dougherty is on paid leave, his secretary doesn't know it. I heard that Mark is paid leave due to a medical problem with his daughter. Which makes no sense at all since his daughter is an adult. I can understand if her HUSBAND was on paid leave, but not her father. What is going on over at 2000 Appling?
karen
Karen: Sounds like the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing in the Body of Christ....
Karen... are you SERIOUS??
They called and asked RM for the check BACK??? I do hope that he said... oops... already deposited it... but knowing this minister, he didn't...
"That is why we wanted the open meeting with protections in place for these men - to get to the truth. As it stands now, they legally have to withold information that may be damaging to the leadership, but informative to the congregation. "
That makes total sense about wanting the meeting. The problem is that churches are NOT under any labor laws. And they tend to act worse than the world because of it.
They can decide to withhold severence if they want. However, making the signing of a confidentiality agreement a condition of severence is questionable legally. It sure would not look so good publicly. Of course, who has the money to fight it? But since they are NOT acting like a church...nor as Christians, I am not so sure 1 Corinthians even applies to them anymore. They are acting like power mad thugs.
A very powerful well known attorney (not a believer) got a whiff of some of the quesitionable employment practices at my former mega. He wanted some staffers to sue pro bono. They did not and I have to wonder if they had, if things would be different now in terms of how they treat people. The publicity alone may have forced some policies to be put in place.
Remember, when someone gets fired from a church, there is NO unemployment compensation. They really have a hold on people financially.
Those who have refused to sign any confidentiality or loyalty agreement have my utmost respect and admiration....not to mention my prayers. Better to suffer financially than to put your name to lies.
"What are the answers? If these guys did speak out...what legal trouble are they in? This is not making good sense. "
The severence package buys the church 3 or 4 months of silence. That is all they are legally entitled to. Speaking truth is not a crime.
lin,
Several of us have lost jobs in the past in order to do the right thing and while it was hard for a while financially, the peace the Lord gives is worth every penny. AND you know what - the Lord supplies all your needs anyway - HE did ours and we never missed a meal. He used it for our benefit and His glory - AMEN and AMEN!
Lindon said...
Junk wrote: I am conflicted...my state was half yankee and half rebel in the war of Northern Agression and Southern rebellion.
junk99mail says ...
Somehow I just KNEW you were in Kentucky!! ""
Ah, Junk...this also applies to Maryland, Virginia (W.Va) and even Ohio and Illinois to some degree.
"Several of us have lost jobs in the past in order to do the right thing and while it was hard for a while financially, the peace the Lord gives is worth every penny."
I can relate. As a pastor said, When the Lord is separating you and cleansing you, it looks like 'death' to the world but it is really eternal life.
concernedSBCer said...
Karen: Sounds like the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing in the Body of Christ....
RESPONSE: And that's just the way they want to keep it.
SpringerSpaniel said...
Karen... are you SERIOUS??
They called and asked RM for the check BACK??? I do hope that he said... oops... already deposited it... but knowing this minister, he didn't...
RESPONSE: I don't know what he said, but I do know they said we need that $1,000 we just gave and we need $400 more.
I need to ask for clarification on something: Are Chip and Mark on paid leave right now? I called BBC and talked to both of their secretaries who told me they know nothing about it. Then I have confirmation that Mark was on paid leave, but he's now back. Does anyone know what the heck is going on? Somebody's lying - either the person who posted about it in the 1st place or the BBC secretaries and I want to know which one. I won't stand for being lied to.
karen
lin said...
But since they are NOT acting like a church...nor as Christians, I am not so sure 1 Corinthians even applies to them anymore. They are acting like power mad thugs.
We already know that according to the former charimen of the deacons and another layman who is now on the Missions Committee that Matthew 18 doesn't apply to the Bellevue pastor. What makes you think 1 Corinthians applies?
karen
At 1:41 PM, April 12, 2007
Lin said...
Ah, Junk...this also applies to Maryland, Virginia (W.Va) and even Ohio and Illinois to some degree.
junk99mail says ...
Yeah, but only KY likes to lay CLAIM to being on both sides. Most northerners think KY is a southern state, but the real southerners know better! :)
At 11:45 AM, April 12, 2007
SpringerSpaniel said...
Sanjaya is destined to win. It's the "AntiAmericanIdol" vote.
Rumor has it that, since next week is Country week, Sanjaya will perform She Thinks My Tractor's Sexy and the Toby Keith smash hit "Who's Your Daddy."
Unconfirmed rumor, that is.
junk99mail says ...
Wow! Just another example of all the RUMORS and LIES and SLANDER on this HATE-FILLED blog!! Sad!
(SOTL, how was my imitation?)
I don't usually speak for SOTL, but Junk, that was impressive!
karen
Thanks, Karen!
Did I understand you to say (in an indirect way) that once upon a time in your youth you had a date of sorts with Mr. Bratton? I admire your courage to admit it on this blog! Haha. :)
Come on, Michael, we know you read this...you can laugh, too.
And you, too, Michelle. We posters here on the "Closed Forum" (as your bro likes to call it) love him, even if he has been banned by our also beloved moderator. I hope you will stick around and share some of your own thoughts on the matters discussed here.
Junk: Please email me. Thanks!
:)
Dear Brothers and Sisters: This Friday night on ABC, Channel 24 at 9:00pm they are going to run a segment entitled "Predator Preachers." They have an interview with Christa Brown as well as Dr. Frank Page of the SBC.
I have seen a partial clip of it and this is a must see for all. ABC did a 6 month investigation of pedophile preachers of all religions. It will sadden you to see who got caught and how many there are.
Please spread the word about this show. God Bless and thank you all.
David Brown
Lin said...
Lindon said...
Junk wrote: I am conflicted...my state was half yankee and half rebel in the war of Northern Agression and Southern rebellion.
junk99mail says ...
Somehow I just KNEW you were in Kentucky!! ""
Ah, Junk...this also applies to Maryland, Virginia (W.Va) and even Ohio and Illinois to some degree.
REPLY:
I'm gonna go with Junk and say Northern Kentucky.
PS. I know there are many that believe that it is just to brutally harsh to say such things. There is no reason to sugar coat the truth. We have a congregation that has gobbled up these lies and seriously does not care if the church leaders lie when it is beneficial. Most of these same people hold politicans to higher standard than they do their church leaders.
If it is not the truth then it is harsh and undeserved. If it is the truth then it is understatement of how seriously God views this sin. Don't take my word for it, investigate and see if I have not told you the truth.
It seems like Steve is becoming more and more bold with his view of the truth. He knew that people could verify the fact that the Rogers family was not there, yet he said it anyway. This sounds like a man who is very comfortable in his position and feels like he has to answer to no one. That is scary to me.
concerned,
I just added my email to my profile, so feel free to send me a note!
Karen blogged "On Monday morning, a secretary called this minister and asked for the $1,000 check back plus $400 to pay for the continuation on the minister's insurance coverage. So much for "thank you; we'll miss you", huh?"
Karen, I have been reading some of your posts. I'm fairly new to many things on this board so forgive me if I err in that regard. In my past position I was involved in our HR department. I know that when an employee left our employment he could option for Cobra but had to pay the full monthly payments. The normal procedure was to get the current month and the next month payment if the employee continued on our plan. It appears that is the case with RM. A $1,400 cost wouldn't be out of line for 2 months insurance. I am sure that the timing and how it's phrased makes it appear that one hand gave and the other hand too it back. While the church may have given him $1,000 it is more likely that the insurance expense required the money to be paid rather than as it sounds that the church was taking it back. Would you mind clarifying as to exactly what happened?
Also, if I recall when RM announced his resignation that he seems somewhat stoic for his personality. Someone writing his speech could explain that. But I am disappointed that RM stood there and said it was his decision to leave which would be in effect his lying to us. I know the facts better about the David Smith issue and it was more that he was left out to dry so to speak. He had no real options but to leave if he wanted to have any security. I liked both those guys and was very disappointed to see them leave.
Also, what is the references to someone resigning? I feel like you are talking in code and I don't have a decoder ring. Please help me to understand what is going on with people either quiting or on leave. Is there some kind of shake up going on now?
The resignation letter RM wrote was not the one he read. His letter was probably shredded into a million pieces. He will need to explain why he let them put him in that position.
Actually, Bellevue is, as are all churches and church related organizations, exempt from the COBRA laws. They do not HAVE to offer an extension of their health plan, simply a letter stating you had healthcare coverage.
springerspaniel wrote "Actually, Bellevue is, as are all churches and church related organizations, exempt from the COBRA laws. They do not HAVE to offer an extension of their health plan, simply a letter stating you had healthcare coverage."
I didn't know that but it still appears from what Karen is saying that Bellevue extended RM coverage under their plan. Otherwise there would not have been a request for money to pay his insurance. No reasonable thinking person would think that the church gave RM $1,000 as a show on Sunday and then demanded back $1,400.
upside down said...
No reasonable thinking person would think that the church gave RM $1,000 as a show on Sunday and then demanded back $1,400.
REPLY:
What would a reasonable person think?????
upside down
I understand this to mean that RM read the resignation written for him in ORDER to GET the extended coverage.
charlie, I don't know about you but if you'll give me $1,000 you'd have a difficult time getting it back. And for me to give you $1,400 for the privilege of getting $1,000 wouldn't be reasonable. A reasonable person would think that RM had to use the $1,000 to pay a $1,400 insurance policy. This past year many of our employees took home less pay after their first of the year raise. We had to raise their insurance co-op to adjust to the increased cost. Those in the lower pay range actually had less take home pay. Try to explain to a person how he got a raise but due to increased insurance it's already gone. But that is a reasonable way things can happen. Therefore my reasoning to what Karen posted. What do you think happened?
I think it was a shame for RM to only get $1,000 from BBC after all the years of faithful service. When considered in light of the sweet deal Mark Dougharty gave himself (one years pay), it looks particularly bad.
Heck, Phil Weatherwax got extra vacation time and a check for just being here a while (actually for embarrassing himself while defending SG in his incoherent screed to Josh Manning.)
Obviously RM should have sucked up to the new pastor.
piglet wrote "I understand this to mean that RM read the resignation written for him in ORDER to GET the extended coverage."
Well my HR experience tells me that the best way to get yourself into trouble is to treat employees differently. I don't see RM as some ignorant person that could be played. If they told him he had to do this to get that then we have a laws which are being violated. I am not saying this happened because I don't want to start gossip. But an employer cannot get away with this in the business world.
Upside Down,
I don't know what they told RM about his insurance or other benefits. However, I do know he was not able to read his actual resignation letter. Either they should have just announced his resignation with no mention of his letter or they should have allowed his actual letter to be read. Whether there was illegaility we can't know without more facts, the way it was handled was just wrong.
Perhaps, Mr. Dictator Deacon has either financial benefits at stake or maybe it is just the power that he fears losing.
3:16 PM, April 12, 2007
Sheepless says,
Maybe he/she's got some skeletons in the closet too!!
Seems we've got lots of them "bones" rattling around.
upside down said...
charlie, I don't know about you but if you'll give me $1,000 you'd have a difficult time getting it back. And for me to give you $1,400 for the privilege of getting $1,000 wouldn't be reasonable. A reasonable person would think that RM had to use the $1,000 to pay a $1,400 insurance policy. This past year many of our employees took home less pay after their first of the year raise. We had to raise their insurance co-op to adjust to the increased cost. Those in the lower pay range actually had less take home pay. Try to explain to a person how he got a raise but due to increased insurance it's already gone. But that is a reasonable way things can happen. Therefore my reasoning to what Karen posted. What do you think happened?
REPLY:
The definitive word is REASONABLE. I really can't see anything REASONABLE about the actions of the BBC leadership, so REASON isn't a factor.
Proverbs 12:22 said...
Heck, Phil Weatherwax got extra vacation time and a check for just being here a while (actually for embarrassing himself while defending SG in his incoherent screed to Josh Manning.)
Proverbs,
What was this about, did he write Josh after the "Monkey business meeting"?
SOTL said: 1)money 2)greed
If these are the two things that are the cause of Bellevue's leadership sins, then their belief that they have a lot of money must be the reason they don't feel accountable for their actions. Does having a lot of money excuse one from Christ-like behavior?
Christ-like behavior is to gird oneself with a towel and wash the feet of thoes subordinate to yourself in true humility.
The motivations of our hearts dictate the course of our actions.
John 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;
4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.
17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them
sheepless wrote:
"What was this about, did he write Josh after the 'Monkey business meeting'?"
No, here.
Then go to the October 2006 archives of this blog and scroll down near the bottom of the page to the thread entitled "The Manning/Weatherwax Letters" if you want to read the bloggers' comments.
sheepless
The October 11 letter from Weatherwax is the temper tantrum on paper.
piglet wrote:
"The October 11 letter from Weatherwax is the temper tantrum on paper."
Yes, that's an apt description.
NASS, Thank you.
This is what our "leaders" are all about. That 1st letter from Phil Weatherwax sounds a lot like Steve.
A MUST READ FOR EVERYONE!!
This time frame is the days before I even knew what a "blog" was. I can thank Steve Gaines for that, as he was complaining about the "blog" in worship services, so I decided to find out what it was. Thank you Steve, this blog has opened up a world of information about YOU!
Back to reading, not finished yet.
sheepless,
I would be interested to know your thoughts after reading the correspondence between Josh Manning and Phil Weatherwax. It just doesn't seem difficult to determine who was behaving in a Christian manner and who wasn't in my opinion. It hasn't been that difficult in most of the issues that have engulfed the church.
The true Christian behavior is always honest and true the leaderships behavior has been ... well scroll back up to my 3:16 post and read it for yourself.
Josh Manning is an unbelievable young man.
He is a man of courage and great wisdom. He is articulate, direct and to the point, yet with a tremendous gentleness of spirit.
Steve Gaines should be, Very Afraid!
Tim,
I got called away, but back to reading now, will get back with you.
I'm not being flippant when I ask, does having a lot of money excuse you from Christ-like behavior?
Is there one set of rules for thoes who have a little money and another for thoes who have a lot of money? Can people's perceptions be so clouded that they can't see the obvious truth?
4545,
You have a lot of nerve asking for proof of anything, since you have done the 'run Forest run' thing from me for over 2 weeks.(I actually have lost track of the time, you have been running so long). Come up with the proof of what you claim before demanding anything from others.
You must be very skinny by now. You have done such a great deal of running.
Always follow the money.
SOTL, I am not sure what you mean by follow the money? Please enlighten me a little bit more. I keep thinking that I need some kind of decoder rings to understand what some are saying. Well except for Tim he puts it out there pretty directly.
Karen said...
I won't stand for being lied to.
Tim says:
Uh, so where does the list start.
Lie Number One.
Steve Gaines says there was not dream. David Smith & Bryson Mcquistion say that Mark Daugherty told them the dream that Steve had conveyed to him in great detail. Mark Dougharty says if they say that I said that then I must have. Someone is lying in this story. David & Bryson have the same story from two seperate conversations with Mark Dougharty. Mark Dougharty says he must have said that. So, who is the liar.
Lie Number Two & Three.
Steve Gaines says in all honesty it was an itty-bitty fence (holding hand about mid-thigh hign) that we just stepped over. The fence is 41" high. He didn't just step over it and it wasn't just itty-bitty. Pretty obvious who the liar is in this case.
Lie Number Four.
Steve Gaines after the business meeting says that he does not know where anyone had heard that he said the fence was itty-bitty, that he never said that. The original statement is on tape, how stupid do you believe people are anyway. Another obvious case of who the liar is.
Lie Number Five.
Steve Gaines goes to Union City and tells them that only 2-3 people started a web site and had made it look like more people were fed up with his lies. Truth is he has known for quite some time that this involves quite a bit more than 2-3 people.
Lie Number Six.
David Coombs implies that the victim was interviewed three times during the investigation. The fact is as was orignally stated the victim was never interviewed as part of the investigative process. There were three meetings with the victim after the investigation was completed but it was not part of the investigative process. Steve Gaines officially welcomes David Coombs to the habitual liars club.
Lie Number Seven.
Harry Smith stands before the church and declares the communication committee meetings were a tremendous sucess and that every question had been answered. Harry Smith joins the liars club.
Lie Number Eight.
Steve Gaines says that Dr. Rogers told him that he would be overjoyed to know that he is not the moderator at church business meetings. This conversation never took place. Steve Gaines is leading the pack of habitual liars.
This list is vastly incomplete. There are dozens more, that involve staff, ministers and deacons.
Does anyone wonder why the illustrious 4545 does not question the leadership about their outrageous lies and slander?
Perhaps, Mr. Dictator Deacon has either financial benefits at stake or maybe it is just the power that he fears losing.
junk99mail said...
Did I understand you to say (in an indirect way) that once upon a time in your youth you had a date of sorts with Mr. Bratton? I admire your courage to admit it on this blog! Haha. :)
YES I did attend a Union University banquet with Mike and we had a good time (right Mike??) He's really is a nice guy, his wife is wonderful and they've got CUTE kids - don't rag on Mike too much. He states his opinion, just like you, but thusly and like so (Sorry Mike, I couldn't resist!).
karen
upside down said...
piglet wrote "I understand this to mean that RM read the resignation written for him in ORDER to GET the extended coverage."
Well my HR experience tells me that the best way to get yourself into trouble is to treat employees differently. I don't see RM as some ignorant person that could be played. If they told him he had to do this to get that then we have a laws which are being violated. I am not saying this happened because I don't want to start gossip. But an employer cannot get away with this in the business world.
I haven't finished reading the entries from last night, but Upside Down, read you last statment. You're right: An employer cannot get away with this in the business world. If your employer climbed the fence at your home, what would you do? If your employer knocked on your door after climbing said fence and there were 4 grown men standing at your door, scaring the crap out of your kids, what would you do?
Did you get your answers on RM answered? I posted what I knew and I don't have anything to add to it, since it would not be what I KNOW; just what I've HEARD and I don't want to post about that.
Karen
Karen, I think that I'm the mushroom of this blog. I seem to be in the dark on everything.
As far as my employer coming to my house and such....I thought that was the Mr. Sharp situation not RM's situation. Did I miss something that happened to RM in this regards? Since MC was fired and successful got a settlement I would think that most current employees at Bellevue be knowledgeable about options available should they be violated by their employer.
I guess I am just trying to understand fully if RM left on his own, was about to be fired or pressured to resign. Why would he stand in front of the church as he did if he wasn't telling us the truth? Could he be bought for as little as a $1,000 gift check? It just doesn't add up to my way of thinking as to what a reasonable person would do.
Instead of speculating and making assumptions about RM and what his situation was, why don't you just ask him if you really want to know. He is a very godly man as is his family and the way this conversation is going about him doesn't seem right. After all the years of dedication he gave Bellevue, and all the college kids he and his wife ministered to, don't you think he deserves the benefit of the doubt. He is an open an honest person, I believe if you asked him these questions he would tell you.
Upside Down,
I don't know what Rob was thinking, but I do know you can call him at Germantown Baptist to speak to him directly. Since I don't know directly, I'm not going to comment on Rob's thinking.
The fence comment was not to suggest that Rob's fence was climbed. It was Mark Sharpe's children that had 4 grown men show up at their house, after dark. I do know if intimidation tactics are used by Steve, Mark, John and Chuck, they can be used on others. If these 4 grown, supposedly intelligent men can agree to scale a 41 inch fence, dressed in black, after dark, I wouldn't put anything past them. I do know that since I'm a relative nobody at BBC, the only way they can hurt me personally is by rolling up that 2 page bylaws really tight and poking me in the eye with them (Piglet loves it when I say this!)! So I ain't scared and I ain't gonna get scared.
I understand the vast majority at BBC does know and seemingly doesn't care about the innerworkings at Bellevue. That fact doesn't make the ongoing shennanigans (I hate using the word LIES all time) at BBC any less true.
A sinkhole starts with a tiny water leak, weakening the road structure, eventually able to swallow cars. I don't want BBC swallowed by the leaking of sin and lies coming from our leadership.
Remember, a tree doesn't die from the weather without; it's the rot from within (ask Mike Bratton about this quote; he's said it a lot more than I have!) :) BTW, that quote from Caiaphus wasn't said this year in the Passion Play.
karen
I understand the vast majority at BBC does know and seemingly doesn't care about the innerworkings at Bellevue. That fact doesn't make the ongoing shennanigans (I hate using the word LIES all time) at BBC any less true.
CORRECTION: I understand the vast majority at BBC DOESN'T KNOW and seemingly doesn't care about the innerworkings at Bellevue. That fact doesn't make the ongoing shennanigans (I hate using the word LIES all time) at BBC any less true.
Also, in regard to RM, the $1000 check that was handed to him after he read his resignation letter was to help him with the new ministry RM was involved in. Steve didn't say "this will help you pay your insurance premium". See the difference?
I also speculate that no taxes were paid on the "gift", but taxes were involved if BBC had paid $1000 to COBRA on behalf of RM.
Karen, I not sure that makes any sense to me. If the church gave him a check for his ministry then isn't that's for RM to decide what to do with it. I see this as two separate issues. Combining the two makes it look bad but isn't necessary the same situation.
Let's say you got a tax refund today for $1,000 and tomorrow your car breaks down. Yes you could say that your tax refund went to pay for your car but had you not got the refund you still would of had to pay for the car. The tax refund only gave you the means rather than taking it from your savings. If we are honest and I'm sure most want to be....isn't that the case here? I mean it's not like the church gave him a $1,000 and took it back. The insurance benefit was for RM not the church's benefit. Maybe I'm splitting hairs but it's important to integrity to not mix things around just to make someone else look bad.
My point is this: On Sunday, the church presented RM with a check for $1,000 to use for his new ministry. On Monday, the church called RM and said they needed $1,400 for the insurance.
We can split all the hairs we want, but the bottom line is it's another example of bad planning. How could they not know that RM would owe for COBRA? They should have handled this on the last day of RM's employment, not wait until the day after he received a $1,000 gift. It's just got an "ick factor" that pervails through the leadership.
karen
One more thing: They did ask for the check back so they could pay the premium for RM and asked for $400 more.
karen
Perhaps it was an oversight by HR and was simply caught the day after RM's Sunday Night "thanksforyouryearsofservicenowgetoutthedoor" thing.
But... it seems like a kind of Thumb in the Eye to me... it should have been handled long before his final day. At places I've worked, it always has been...
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