This means a legitimate business meeting, not the "dog and pony show" we were subjected to on March 25th. It means:
1. Adequate childcare for those who need it for the duration of the meeting.
2. Voting on all motions by written ballot by verified members only.
3. An independent third party to moderate.
4. An independent third party to count and certify the votes.
5. No time limit on the meeting. If it runs too long, the meeting can always be recessed and continued later.
Please sign, then forward the above link to your friends so they can sign, too!
Now please continue...
Our New Church Logo?
726 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 601 – 726 of 726Its a philosophy of religion class and they are analyzing the posts on here. I thought it was interesting.
Brady,
What seminary is this?
If this is factual information as you propose you should have no problem giving the name of the seminary.
brady,
I wouldn't worry too much about your post...I don't think anyone gives it much credence anyhow. To be frank, I think it's pretty shameful for a seminary class to turn the real problems of a church into a psycho-analysis project. The fact that they didn't address the issues even once was glaring...only the psychological break-down of the posters on this blog...unless these are doctoral students in psychology, I think their "report" is dubious at best...which for me raises the question, what hath Freud, Maslow, Rogers, Jung, et al, to do with Christ's body? If this is a Southern Baptist seminary and these students and their report are indicative of the thoughts and attitudes of the young men being churned out to shepherd God's flock, then this denomination will be in deep trouble for years to come. While I wholeheartedly support pastoral authority in the church, these young men need to learn the extent and responsibilities of that authority...in other words, they need to understand clearly just whose flock, whose body, whose church it is they are called to lead...and not only that, but they need to understand the Biblical concept of accountability...pastors DO have earthly accountability..if you read the scriptures carefully and fully, you'll see that accountability is circular in nature..saying a pastor is accountable only to God is dangerous and un-Biblical. Dangerous not only for the church, but for himself. God has given ALL of us earthly institutions for accountability for our life here...human government and the church...and that accountability is for ALL, including pastors and other church leaders. Perhaps they should make THAT a class project...it would certainly be more beneficial for them and for the church. jmo
However, some of their conclusions are wrong. Also, it seems as if they are lumping many people together. I'll submit that if you got the bloggers together in one room, all would be shocked at the diversity in backgrounds, economic standing, children, marital status, etc. It seems to me they were making sweeping judgments when shepherds should be seeing individual sheep, not herds. What this group does have in common is searching the scripture for the Truth, no matter how difficult that is. And that means holding leadership accountable to following that same Truth.
Brady,
Give us the name of the seminary!!
Its SWBTS. I don't think they were addressing the issue of accountability at all. They were just analyzing the posts that are on this blog. I thought they were quite accurate in some of their conclusions and probably missed the mark in others. Its nothing to hyperventilate over but maybe learn from it. Most of the conclusions were drawn by their professor so we can take that for what its worth.
I have to go to work now. I hope you guys don't jump all over me but at least read their conclusions.
I hope you all have a great day.
Talk to you again tonight.
brady,
I had already assumed it was SWBTS...I know from my own blog that the seminaries have been following this one, and I've gotten more hits from SWBTS than any other. I don't think anyone is hyper-ventilating, but I think it's reasonable to be concerned that a seminary can look at what's happened at BBC and this is all they see and are concerned with. I would think the issues themselves would be due more serious consideration...but perhaps it's like that unspoken rule among doctors...you never criticize another doctor no matter how many patients he's killed. jmo
I would lay odds that Rev. Steve did not accept the 'call' without getting a full commitment from the Chair of the Pulpit Committee to support him in this 'transition' at all costs. Maybe even 'blood brother' type commitment. That was probably a condition of his accepting the call. I know the game all too well. That's part of the reason that I think sometimes the focus is on the wrong party/s on this blog. The pulpit committee should be hung out to dry. And I am unanimous in that opinion. Fortunate that I know none of them!
Whatever the debate is today I know without a shadow of a doubt that the "business meeting" at BBC a week ago Sunday was totally contrived and calculated. A lot of you have said this over and over and now I know it for myself due to a conversation over the weekend.
David Coombs is nothing more than a puppet in Steve Gaines hands and it's not going to change. Steve Gaines is on a VERY short leash. David Coombs has been to several institutions to apologize for Steve Gaines and "make nice".
There is no one on this blog or off this blog that can say these things haven't or didn't happen. Go ask David Coombs if the the meeting was contrived. Go ask David Coombs if he's been to MABTS and Life Choices to "make nice". Then come back here and tell everyone I'm right.
Have a great day!
karen
eprov said...
I would lay odds that Rev. Steve did not accept the 'call' without getting a full commitment from the Chair of the Pulpit Committee to support him in this 'transition' at all costs.
Ask John and Pat Caldwell if they like having their daughter and grandkids back in Memphis and ask them how hard they'll work to keep them here.
karen
eprov,
I think your odds are good. I find it hard to accept that this undying loyalty to the man is anything less than what you described.
2chron said,"The parliamentarian's name is Barry McCarty. He is the pastor of Valley View Christian Church in Dallas, Texas. He has also served as parliamentarian for the SBC.
You may have read about him and his church during the time Harriet Myers was being considered for the Supreme Court. She was amember of his church. UNDER HIS LEADERSHIP THE CULTURE WAS TRANSITIONED FROM TRADITIONAL TO THE "SEEKER FRIENDLY" PD MODEL. This caused the church to split, HM went with the group that split."
RESPONSE: So...for anybody who is still doubting where Bellevue is, this should certainly clear it up for you. You had a man who transitioned a traditional church to a purpose driven church under the direction of Dan Southerland/Rick Warren calling the shots at the recent Sunday night business meeting at your church. You had might as well have had Rick Warren himself standing there that night. Or Dan Southerland. What better way would there be than to have 'one of them' as the presiding parlimentarian at these troubles business meetings? You must understand that these guys 'network' all of this...it is a 'vision' thing. Remember the trojan horse. And there are those of you who think this isn't happening? If this is what you want, that is one thing; if it isn't what you want, then it is another. You are getting it regardless of what you want.
Barry McCarty's church, Valley View Christian Church in Dallas, Texas, where Harriet Myers had attended was one of the three churches featured in the Wall Street Journal by Suzanne Sataline last September.
Time is running short...please stand and fight for Truth. Fight for the Body of Christ. Fight for Jesus.
Ima
eprov...yes you are exactly right. The intent was already there by the leadership...the pulpit committee was a part of it. These guys network together. This MO is typical of the church growth movements. Once it has 'dug in', it is extremely difficult to turn it around. GBC is really the only one I know of that has turned it around in all of my research the last two plus years. I hope the watchmen are on their toes at GBC. Multiple attempts are usually made to get these churches.
Karen said, "David Coombs is nothing more than a puppet in Steve Gaines hands and it's not going to change."
RESPONSE: Karen, you nailed it! You got to understand that these guys don't mind taking some flack...they are focusing on the 'vision'; the end of the road. They understand that they are going to have to deal with resisters in obtaining their goal, which is transitioning the established church to a purpose driven church. They don't mind. Go to pastors.com to the transitioning thread and read their comments to each other about 'just this thing'. They compete with each other to see who can do the best job. It is a network. They brag about their 'battle scars'...meaning about what they have had to endure to reach their goad! They see themselves as martyrs.
"Most of the conclusions were drawn by their professor so we can take that for what its worth. "
Brady, that is even scarier. It saddens me that these students did not see the futility of this exercise. I have long been very concerned about the Biblical illiteracy of the graduates from Seminary. Most of the worldly principles we are seeing in churches today originated from Fuller Seminary. It has spread since the early 60's and the twisting of scripture and inclusion of occultic psychology is rampant in Seminaries.
There has been some very serious false teaching on this blog coming from 'seminary' trained posters.
Your post only related how sad things have become. Perhaps a pastor ignoring scripture should be more of concern to these young students and their 'professor'.
"Karen said, "David Coombs is nothing more than a puppet in Steve Gaines hands and it's not going to change."
I believe he has been playing the middle...just in case.
Its The VISION THING
VISION FORMING/TUNING IN TO GODS "PRESENCE" AND ...'VOICE"
ima,
What a wonderful Easter service we had at Germantown on Sunday. Even my dad said "I feel good here". My starts choir practice at GBC on Wednesday night. I'm really happy for them. My hubby and I will probably start there soon, but we're all waiting to see who they get as their new pastor. My hubby and I also have a Baptist/Church of Christ tenant issue to discuss with a pastor too.
Lots of Bellevue folks joined GBC yesterday. Mrs. Rogers was there. Josh, saw your parents and they looked great (as usual!). Good to be around positive people without an agenda.
Hope your Easter was as great as ours was.
Karen
I express myself via songs a lot and this one really captures how I feel about leaving Bellevue:
Daniel Kirkley - My New Dawn
From the album Let Love Win
Hiding in the midnight
I've watched life pass me by
Haunted by each heartbreak
And mistake, I've let weigh
Me down all this time
Now it feels like
Chorus
This is my new dawn
My yesterdays have come and gone
Walked in the dark too long
This is my new, this in my new dawn
I have washed my hands now
I've laid down all my doubts
I see that sun rising
Baptizing and shining
Straight into my soul
Chorus
Like a child suddenly everything's new
The colors collide and I see a beautiful view
I feel alive
Chorus
FYI,
For those of you who don't know, they announced at GBC yesterday that Rob Mullins mom had passed away. Please pray for his family.
Thanks!
karen
"Its nothing to hyperventilate over but maybe learn from it."
Brady, that is the problem...too much learning from very bad sources. Thanks, but I will take my learning from scripture...in total...in context.
I pray that these Seminary students will do the same and get out of the occultic psycho-analyzing business.
My starts choir practice at GBC on Wednesday night
Correction: My MOM starts choir practive at GBC on Wednesday night. :)
karen
Watchman, If only the 'vision' or 'goal' was to be OBEDIANT to scritpure....and scripture alone.
Church Growth Change Agent George Barna describes for pastors what he calls 'VISION KILLERS "...
This is horrible stuff...
as you can see tens of thousands of God fearing , Praying, Bible Believing grandmas and grandpas and moms and dads and Sunday School teachers and deacons and supreme court resisters , and you and me , if we are not "tuned in" are being described in this blueprint for dividing churches based upon pastors tuning into and fervently hanging onto a vision rather than the authority of Scripture as revealed by GOD.
WHY GRANDMA AND GRANDPA ARE NO LONGER WELCOME AT CHURCH
THE DIVISION IS NOT COMING FROM THE PEW..ITS COMING FROM THE VISION THAT IS CONTRARY TO DOCTRINE. AS THE BIBLE WARNS
Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences CONTRARY TO THE DOCTRINE which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. 19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple F64 concerning evil. 20 And the God of peace shall bruise F65 Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
It is my hope that all of you who read this blog realize that BBC IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE!!! SG is not going to leave and BBC is never going to be the same. You need to accept this and either resolve yourself to it, or move on. Personally, I have to move on after 20+ years of membership because it actually makes me nauseated to see BBC being destroyed by a dictator who doesn't care what others believe and has no regard or respect for people. He is intent on doing things his way and it doesn't matter how many are hurt or what tactics he'll use to intimidate members as he re-shapes BBC to fit his own agenda. As Jamie P said, "you will not recognize BBC in 5 years". I cannot sit under SG's preaching or be under his authority anymore - it is a mockery. Can you not see that his behavior is void of integrity, character, honesty, and genuine love for people at BBC?
What has happened to our church lay leaders? I am so disappointed with our spineless church lay leadership, many men and women who I respected and looked up to over the years - many who taught my children and were their role models. My children are grown now, but they have the maturity and insight to see right through these so-called "role models of our church" to realize they will do anything to stay in power at the church. Many like Chuck Taylor, the Caldwells, Harry Smith, Steve Tucker, the Brands - I am amazed and disappointed they are blinded by their own personal aspirations and will follow someone who can convince them to "climb over fences (illegal and immature)", participate in nepotism (selfish and self-serving), lie to church members (deceitful), while covering for SG in all sorts of situations. I can only pray that God will open their eyes to realize the harm they have done to the church and to people.
I speak from experience that things will not change. I witnessed this type behavior and actions by a pastor in my home church years ago. Many God-loving, faithful people were wounded through this pastor’s various acts of intimidation, harassment, lies, humiliation, and embarrassment until they left. I cannot stay at BBC and participate in a church headed down the same road.
Thank you for indulging me the opportunity to post this message. Please, do not think you're going to wait this out and things will get better. It will not get any better. They are almost half-way through transitioning BBC to their vision. If you're not willing to play by the "new rules", you will be better off to find another church, because if you stay, you will remain in a state of anger and bitterness that will rob you of true worship and growth in your relationship with Jesus, our Lord.
My love, prayers, and blessings to you all.
The New Age implications of THE PURPOSE DRIVEN CHURCH
WHERE DID ALL OF THIS VISION STUFF AND GODS' DREAM STUFF ORIGINATE FROM ?
Mu6MyForte - What a great screen name! You are 100% correct in your post. There will be no changes to the positive - BBC will be led down the "primrose path" to destruction. I, too do not understand why lay leaders that I've looked up to over the years would sacrifice their integrity to the gods of power, superiority and leadership. I guess we never REALLY knew what they were like, huh? It just hurts to see a church I've grown up in be meticulously picked dry by a man who's been in power less than 2 years. As I've said, I now understand how gullible people will follow the anti-Christ.
karen
Pat Caldwell was my SS teacher for about 5 years. I have to say that she was a FABULOUS teacher. She was very deep in her teaching,and I grew a tremendous amount under her.
However, I have never been more disappointed in my life as I have been over the Caldwells. I do not understand how they can throw us all under the bus. Did they do all this JUST to get their daughter and grandkids back?
Pat Caldwell is a very deep person and is not shallow, spiritually speaking. She and Dr. R. spoke weekly on the phone as prayer partners. She loved Dr. R. I know she did.
How can she accept this shallow teaching from SG???? I just do not understand what has happened.
She could do a better job preaching from the pulpit then he is doing. She certainly understands the bible better and deeper.
But like I said, i am very disappointed in her. Her actions have caused me to question many things.
I pray that she will see what she is doing and turn away from this. Even if it DOES mean having her daughter and grand kids close by. She was very close to that daughter, and I know that she missed them when they left.
She is a terrific mother and grandmother.
I just don't get what has happened to her. :(
Ima said
GBC is really the only one I know of that has turned it around in all of my research the last two plus years. I hope the watchmen are on their toes at GBC.
Sam Shaw trying to change the bylaws, is what woke us up to the direction our church was heading. Someone said the greatest gift Ken Story gave GBC was always keeping our bylaws up to date and in front of us the 30+ years he was at GBC.
I know someone on our pastor search committee who assures me they are doing everything possible, even calling other pastors of churches in the area, and former members, of the candidate they are considering, to do their best to prevent PDC from ever becoming an issue again.
I loved our Easter service too. I couldn't help but remember last year during Easter, when the vote was just weeks away, how nice it was going to my in-laws church where there was no tension, and hearing a serom that didn't involve bibically correct elder led churches!
I truly pray BBC can return to the wonderful church it was always meant to be.
Rob Mullins' mother is at Memphis Funeral Home on Poplar. Receiving friends from 5-8pm on Tuesday and the Funeral is at 10am on Wed morning. It was a unexpected death and he needs our prayers.
sotl,
I know Pat Caldwell too and I know she's strong in the faith, but I don't understand what happened to them either. I can't see John scaling a fence either, but we know that happened.
amy,
I really starting to enjoy the services at GBC - for awhile there I couldn't even sing without breaking into tears and your fellowship has opened its arms to those of us who are hurting from BBC. I really want to thank you for that.
My hubby and I are really looking forward to Gary Smalley!
karen
SOTL,
Some people have a very deep head knowledge, but their heart knowledge is shallow or non-existant entirely. I would only be speculating on this as a reason for Pat's stance, but after viewing her husband's actions, it is possible that this exists in the family. She also may be taking her lead from him. Perhaps we can begin to pray for her to see more clearly. I will join you.
Karen said..." I, too do not understand why lay leaders that I've looked up to over the years would sacrifice their integrity to the gods of power, superiority and leadership".
RESPONSE: So Karen...I can't say what I want to because NASS would 'get me', meaning discussing our favorite beverage. :) So just let me suffice it to say that what is hard to understand is that these men traded their integrity for Rick Warren's agenda...hook, line, and sinker! They are so sold on it they are willing to stake their entire future, their integrity, their reputations; as the Bible says...they are delusional. They no longer are worshipping God...they are worshipping Steve Gaines and Rick Warren.
mu6myforte is right...it isn't going to change, but rather will get worse. But I do think we have to try. How can we not? We have to sound the alarm.
I just thank God that he separated me from it.
Out of the frying pan, and into the fire:
BIBLICAL ANALYSIS OF THE TEACHINGS OF GARY SMALLEY
BIBLICAL ANALYSIS OF THE TEACHINGS OF GARY SMALLEY
Watchman said, "BIBLICAL ANALYSIS OF THE TEACHINGS OF GARY SMALLEY"
RESPONSE: Hahaha...was just about to go there.
Ima
REVERSING GODS' ORDER..
GARY SMALLEY AND THE PSYCHOLOGY OF ' MATRIARCHY "
THE PSYCHOLOGY OF MATRIARCHY
Amy,
Email me.
Ima
Good information to know on Gary Smalley. If I put all my "marital hopes" into this man, I'd be worried about the seminar. Since our marriage is built on God and mutual respect for each other, I think we'll go into this seminar with eyes wide open. One of my faviorite "word pictures" (they work for me!) has always been from Gary Smalley:
"Men are like microwaves,
Women are like crockpots,
Both get heated up eventually but at different speeds."
I get that and my husband gets that so it works for us. Mutual understanding is key.
I'm just excited to be doing something with my husband that ain't the "same ole, same ole". :)
karen
And here I was so excited because I won a free ticket yesterday in SS to the GS Conference! What I remember about him is watching an infomercial late at night when I was up with a sick child that had Kathie Lee and Frank Gifford, along with a few other couples, selling a video series to improve your marriage, and talking about all the wonderful ways their own marriages had benefited. I guess Smalley forgot to mention it helps if you stay faithful, because it was soon after that Frank got outed for having another woman! Then the Giffords got mad at Smalley because he counciled them after Franks affair became known and talked about it to People Magazine. Kind of scarry I remeber all this!
Karen;
According to God..
Just how much false teaching is good for THE BODY????
A little "leaven " leaveneth the whole lump.God doesnt approve of ANY leaven in His CHURCH.
Gary Smalley also is listed on NAVPRESS as being a reader of mystic Eugene Petersons " The MESSAGE BIBLE ".
Nuff said...
If nothing I am sharing means much to you..
Thanks at least for the update on Tennessee
Tennessee churches are evidently crawlin with transitionists.
I wonder how the churches are in Belize?
amy,
Sounds like you and I would get along. See you at the conference.
karen
God charged young Timothy to be on guard against those who would bring in false science.
!st Timothy 6:20
20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of SCIENCE FALSELY SO CALLED: 21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.
watchman said...
If nothing I am sharing means much to you..
Thanks at least for the update on Tennessee
Tennessee churches are evidently crawlin with transitionists.
I don't happen to agree with you one thing you've brought to my attention - now I speak for all of Tennesseee churches? I don't think so.
I'm still a fan of Beth Moore - until God tells me otherwise, I will continue to read her books.
Don't demonize me if we have differing opinions. Please! :)
karen
You will never be able to say you weren't warned:
GARY SMALLEY-RIGHT BRAIN LEFT BRAIN PSEUDOSCIENCE
RIGHT BRAIN,LEFT BRAIN, BROCCOLI BRAIN
amy,
Sounds like you and I would get along. See you at the conference.
We will have to meet! To me, Gary Smalley is a "take what you need and leave the rest" kind of conference and it should be fun.
Ima,
You have mail my dear!
A few things to consider that many will not like:
There is LOTS of money in marketing topical feel good Bible studies, seminars, books, and materials on leadership, happy marriages and raising kids.
There is NO money in teaching and preaching the Word in context.
Just something I have witnessed working in and around Christian marketing, training and publishing circles.
Just be a Berean and if your ears are tickled, beware.
Karen..
I wasnt speaking of you
I was speaking of Smalley as a Tennessee touring "transitionist".
Watchman: I've been reading these articles. I think anyone could say, based on personal experience even, that men and women, to some degree, think differently and have different strengths. I always thought God made us that way to fulfill the purposes he had for us. I think learning to understand each other is a complex endeavor. While Trent and Smalley might be making assumptions on the "how", what do you see that is unscriptural about their statements? A serious question that I want to know the answer to....
2nd Peter 2: 1-3
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
Amy,
I went to the Smalley Conference at BBC a couple of years or so back. He and his son were there. It was a good conference, but nothing I had not heard before (sitting under Dr R all those years). He mostly told stories and sold his books. Although, he did have some very good information for someone just starting out in their married life, I could see where it would be a tremendous asset. I would go and glean what you can from his lectures.
I had issues at the one at BBC because they had arranged for Carter Threlkeld to do the music and is was more like a lounge act than a church seminar. Dr Rogers even made a statement to the fact that "he couldn't get away with that if I were in charge". So my opinion may be swayed a bit as the music may have had an impact on my enjoyment of the seminar. I was embarassed for BBC because a lot of non-members were there.
concerned wrote: While Trent and Smalley might be making assumptions on the "how", what do you see that is unscriptural about their statements? A serious question that I want to know the answer to.... "
Please Please, can I answer??? Please??? My hand is up!!
I was DEEP into all this stuff for years: MBTI, Love Languages, DISC, etc., etc., etc., I am a certified facilitator for MBTI and Disc as well as other training programs.
Here is what I finally was convicted of by the Holy Spirit: we are spending our time focusing on personality traits, love languages, etc., when we should be growing in our relationship with Christ. By abiding in Him, we have the Holy Spirit to deal with all situations in our home and relationships. It is the HOLY SPIRIT that works, not some technique we are learning and applying.
It is almost legalistic and Pharisetical in a way. We follow steps outlined by the author and try methods and techniques. And they usually work because they appeal to the flesh. But they are temporal. Who doesn't want their love language practiced on them? Who doesn't want cover based on their personality type?
What is more important for your child or spouse to see in you: Successful implementation of your love language techniques or Christ IN you?
There is really no Biblical basis for any of it. Christ gave us the marriage relationship in scripture. And for the guys...it is REAL serious. You must be prepared to love her as Christ loved the church...no matter what. How much did Christ love the Body? He died for it. That is a long way from left brain silliness...wouldn't you say?
mom4,
Did you attend the Nancy Leigh DeMoss seminar at BBC a couple years back? My mom and I went together and we got some junk in our relationship fixed. Things Nancy said in her seminar still ring in my head so I think she was effective in my life.
Anybody know how to get yesterday's sermon notes online for BBC? I was just interested in the outline. Thanks!
karen
Concerened:
Ok..ask a serious question, get a serious answer:
The new age has infiltrated the Church of Jesus Christ, and..seeing the influenceof new age in the church is every Bereans duty.
I know many New Age promoters who routinely use the false science of "right brain-left brain" pseudoscience to INJECT new age terms and concepts into THE BODY of JESUS CHRIST, via seminars and retreats..
NEW AGE PSEUDOSCIENCE IN THE CHURCH
Like rat poison: 99.5 % edible
Karen said...
Anybody know how to get yesterday's sermon notes online for BBC? I was just interested in the outline. Thanks!
http://www.bellevue.org/clientimages/1360/sermons/notes4-8-07.pdf
lin,
I agree with you - if all we do in marriage is focus on some psycho babble then we're in real trouble. Hey, Song of Solomon is hotter than any romance novel I've ever read (yes, I went there!), so the Bible should be the basis for the marriage relationship. We need to rely on spiritual discernment as to what to keep and what to throw out.
I guess I'm lucky growing up in a Christian home - learning the Bible in KJV was hard, but there were enough "teen tools" out there to help me make good choices. Nowadays, with Bibles like "The Message" dumbing down The Gospel, I feel sorry for today's young Christians who take "The Message" and use it as their only means of Biblical study. I admit, I use "The Message" to understand things that I just don't understand in my Bible Study, but by no means is that the "end all and be all".
karen
Karen,
I did not go to that particular seminar bc I had already done a small group study in her book and it is very good. She is the former college roommate of Larry Ray's wife. They think very highly of her opinions. I wonder what she thinks of what is going on at BBC?
Thanks springer!
karen
THE MESSAGE BIBLE ---
MYSTICISM IN THE CHURCH
THE MESSAGE BIBLE-MYSTICISM IN THE CHURCH
Lin said...
"Here is what I finally was convicted of by the Holy Spirit: we are spending our time focusing on personality traits, love languages, etc., when we should be growing in our relationship with Christ. By abiding in Him, we have the Holy Spirit to deal with all situations in our home and relationships. It is the HOLY SPIRIT that works, not some technique we are learning and applying."
*******
I agree totally with both what you said and the conclusions you have come to in regard to these matters including the marketing of the products that teach these ideas. I, too, had come to the same point some time ago.
There is no doubt that we are to be Bereans in all things. Whether it be preaching, scientific teaching or psychologial ideas.
All things created by God have been perverted by sin. Therefore all things must be weighed against the Word of God.
This is the Word of God and can be depended upon. Pay careful attention to the words knowledge and understanding.
I Kings 3:9
Give therefore thy servant an understanding heart to judge thy people, that I may discern between good and bad: for who is able to judge this thy so great a people?
Daniel 1:20
And in all matters of wisdom and understanding, that the king enquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and astrologers that were in all his realm.
Mark 7:18-23
18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
I Peter 3:7
Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
Karen, You are smarter than me. I could NEVER understand the KJV. My brother and I used to annoy my Dad by speaking in KJ language during Sunday dinner.
When my mom would do studies with me, I would get so frustrated and say things like, 'Why couldn't they just say, Look, instead of Behold?
But you are right...we have an entire generation growing up on the Message which is basically only what Eugene Peterson personally believes a translation of a translation says. So, anyone reading it best find out what Eugene Peterson believes in depth!
Here are some not so fun facts about the Message (and other dubious translations) from my research a while back:
The following terms are in the Message Bible zero, that is 0, times:
Christ Jesus, my Lord
Lord Jesus Christ
Lord Jesus
Christ Jesus, our Lord
Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ our Lord
Jesus Christ is Lord!
There is nothing more fundamental to salvation than the Lordship of Jesus Christ. (Romans 10) The Lord Jesus Christ is inseparable from His absolute truth. It is through believing and obeying the truth that Jesus Christ is truly our Lord.
I did a quick search for the word “repent” in Eugene Peterson’s “The Message” and here is what I found:
The word, "repent", appeared only twice – both times in Revelations.
“Repentance” appeared only one time in Matthew and “repenting” only once in the Gospel of Luke.
So, anything to do with 'repentance' appeared 4 times in the Message.
Most other New Testament versions of the Bible had “repent” or some form of the word appearing 50 to 60 times.
But even worse, in “The New Life Translation” and “The Contemporary English” there was nothing resembling the word 'repent'.
Make sure what you are reading is a direct translation of God's Holy Word.
Just how important is this word? What was Jesus' first sermon in Matthew? Mark? If you guessed, 'Repent'!, you are right.
Lin said...
Karen, You are smarter than me. I could NEVER understand the KJV. My brother and I used to annoy my Dad by speaking in KJ language during Sunday dinner.
Oh, I didn't understand it so much as that's all there was out there. Well, there was the Living Bible, the Good News and a couple others, but basically KJV. You're giving me too much credit.
Spooky about The Message facts - I guess I'll have to revise my reference books. I'm think my Life Recovery Bible may have to be put on the back burner as well, but I get a lot out of it even though it changes pronouns around. The fact that I can relate things to my "addict brain" at all is a miracle in itself, amen? :)
karen
amen 2006
Nowhere in Scripture do we find "steps" or " formulas " or right brain-left brain techniques" mentioned in order to please God, our wives, our husbands, or to abide iN CHRIST.
The Holy Spirit filled beleiver will grow in grace and Truth BY OBEDIENCE AND DEVOTION TO GOD THROUGH HIS WORD since God Himself promised to grow Us in ALL TRUTH.
New age, and all esoteric philosphies are loaded with "steps" techniques, and evolutionary secrets to acheive hidden potentials.
No thanks..
If GOD meant to provide it..
Its' IN HIS WORD
If He didnt provide it...
and His WORD knows nothing of it...
I am only protected leaving all pseudoscience and new age thinking on the table of SPIRITUAL COMPROMISE.
If that makes me appear small minded, or...fearful of change...
you got that 100 % right..
I AM UNASHEDLY FEARFUL of ever going against MY LORD in order to chase after feel good philosophies of men.
Lin and Watchman: Thank you for your responses. I have never thought of it that way. Several weeks ago we had a discussion on this blog about something else and the final conclusion was that we were relying more on man's interpretations than on studying what scripture said. There are so many situations that sound like they need psychological help. And sometimes I think we do. However, in a perfect world, if we all obeyed scripture, things would work more smoothly, huh? If my Christian husband had loved me as Christ loved the church instead of leaving me and our 4 kids; well, no need for outside help in dealing with it. (However, I must tell you that God is faithful; the Romans 8:28 proof from that experience.) I think this just reminds us, as Karen put it so well, everything we need to know about is in the Bible. Sounds so simple….it seems we’ve forgotten. *sigh*
typo ..."UNASHAMEDLY "
concerned:
Amen
Seems we have forgotten everything we need is IN the BIBLE
The enemy of our souls and his purpose driven clones know that THIS is the disease that is killing the VISIBLE CHURCH AND ITS ABILITY TO WARD OFF ERROR .
FYI - for anyone lurking:
Today's discussions about The Message Bible and Gary Smalley NEVER would have been discussed if not for this blog. I've been trying to find good out of the fiasco that is BBC, so I really think God allowed this to happen so I can become more aware of the PDL church or the Church Growth Movement and people writing "bibles" based on their owne study. Hey, I'm even starting to understand what Calvinists and a Beareans believe. So, if anyone asks what goes on at "that spiteful, hateful blog" - tell them Christians are educating Christians. So, thanks y'all!
karen
Karen: AMEN!!!! And Praise the Lord for you all!
Nass,
I hope you don't mind me checking in...just one post, and I'll go.
Guys, I know some have been greatly concerned(and overjoyed) by my sudden and prolonged disappearance, but you can breathe a sigh of relief; I've had a nice 4 day vacation, courtesy of the Tennessee State Police & Dept. of Corrections. It seems that there are some strange new laws pertaining to anyone who has an automobile; for instance, did you know you have to have insurance, a license plate, a muffler, and working signal lights...I know, I know, it's crazy stuff. And a word to the wise, the little citations they give you for parking (I have 240)... they are not just complimenting you for finding a good parking space.
Anyway the vacation was much needed, but I was a little discombobulated at first (which is about usual). However, Malik and the homeboys on cell block D took good care of me and even asked me to join their club. They even gave me a 'prison tat' (against my will of course) to make it official... does anyone know what a South Memphis Crip is?
Leaving was bittersweet, but me and the homies are planning to get together in 3 to 5 years...on a more somber note, the Country Squire was returned to me, but my 'Aunt Bee' bobblehead doll was missing (thankfully though, my 'Grease' soundtrack was left unharmed). There just aint no props for a gangsta like me.
As my medical colleague, the highly respected dermatologist, Dr. Lance Boyles, once told me: "It's always darkest before the dawn, especially when you have the windows to your upstairs garage apartment blacked out with tin foil". You're a wise man Dr. Boyles, a wise man.
William T. Loney, M.D.
ps...sorry I couldn't provide the viennas and potted meat for the festivities...but if anyone is game, I have a gizzard casserole cooling off as I speak...you bring the mayonnaise and I'll provide the Tums. Also, for those with medical questions, I’ve decided to put my email on profile. (though the service is free, donations may be made via PayPal)
"And sometimes I think we do. However, in a perfect world, if we all obeyed scripture, things would work more smoothly, huh?"
yes for the most part but still there is some misconception taught about that, too. (I am full of cheery thoughts today, huh? :o)
Believers are promised abundant life but that is mainly spiritual...not material focused as so many teach today.
In reality, we are told there will be 'trouble' in this world..but that He has overcome the world. My parallel here is thinking of those burned at the stake for the name of Christ. They had 'abundant' life. It is hard for us to get our heads around that in our comfy American lives. The 'abundant' life could very well mean persecution. For example, If we read Hebrews knowing that they were facing serious persecution, it really is meaningful.
...we should long to see our Lord Who will dry every tear.
Maranatha!!
Karen: I went to a Women's weekend at BBC 19 year ago and it truly blessed my life in ways you can't believe. The featured speaker that I remember was Marilee Horton. She was amazing. It really helped me tremendously. I don't think she said anything wrong, and I do know I got a lot out of it. Maybe the key is to use the Bible first and foremost and when we hear other speakers, like visitors and pastors, we line everything up with scripture. I realize we should already be doing that. Yet, maybe I (we as a church?) just got lazy. That means we have to study and know our Bible, spend time with our Savior. I am humbled.
"Today's discussions about The Message Bible and Gary Smalley NEVER would have been discussed if not for this blog."
God Bless you, Karen. I have been very edified being around other believers on this blog discussing scriptures. I pray for you all...including the nasty's.
Dr.(grin) Lonely, Are you married?
And please tell us you have no children. :o)
Lin: I agree with you 100%. I've always had a "check in my spirit" regarding those who taught and preached about the blessings that come to Christians. I've always been dubious of the statement, "If you tithe, God will give back to you." I think we should give with a joyful heart not because we are going to receive something in return. I am waiting for Heaven; that's when all will be good. :)
DR Bill!
We have missed you! Welcome back! Please grace us with your presence more often..
NASS,
Is something wrong with the blogger? I have to resubmit all my info every time to log in? (Or is it me??)
Amen Lin..
If nothing else, this blog will be used of GOD to " strengthen " THAT WHICH REMAINS.
Guys...
It's the Bible...PLUS NOTHING.
ima..
Now Youre cookin with gas.
Listen guys...
We need to be watchmen for those speakers with the intent to brainwash us, not just speak to us. There are many already in place and many on the rise with the intent to further their cause...such as church growth movement and contemplative spirituality. That is the danger present today that might not have been there nineteen years ago. There is an intensity to do us harm now.
Ima: You are right, of course.
Mom4: I'm having to do the same thing.
Thanks for the kind words today. I've always been the "perfectionist type" that if I couldn't do something 100% right, 100% of the time, I wouldn't do it at all. Thus leading to crippling depression and addictions. It's nice to know other Christians "don't do it right" all the time too.
(Must be the Sanguine personality flaw!) :)
karen
Watchman...my pilot light never goes out. :) As yours doesn't.
My Lord brought me out of an apostate church a little over a year ago after an intense effort to save it and my life has totally changed. My husband and I said at the time that our lives had forever been changed. I am witnessing the same thing with people on this blog. I suspect the same with you.
concerned,
Whew! I figured it was my old timer's mind!!! Thanks!
OK so eprov is right....
the powers that be did make a deal with the devil.
and mu6forte seems
to have clarity about the situation.
SO, what now???
Let the lost and weak sit under a false teacher???
Move to GTBC because the interim ministers FEEL comfortable and we see people we know there so we just melt in the crowd, smile,and feel better??
(I absolutely love MS and JW ...and David S....)
GTBC has nothing about the governing of the church on their website that says a pastor could not do the same thing that SG has done.
When do you know it is over????
I can't believe I will drive by BBC and tell my grandchild that the big building was once my church where I learned about Jesus and her mommy and uncle learned and grew in the Lord and played sports and plays there.
But then it was taken over by false teaching and corrupt,power hungry men who did not obey God's word
but followed man and their own lust and pride...........can I say that grandmommy stood for truth????? Can I tell her I did all I could do to protect the lost and weak and vulnerable????
When have we done all we can??
If we want to make one last ditch effort...what could it be????
Even my son says we have played by the leadership rules long enough.
Our 8 motions were all scripturally sound.
We had our own parlimentarian....we tried desperately to play by the rules...even tho they change with the leadership's fancy.
What would God have for us to do?? What will give Him glory??
asking,praying.
Watchman said, "If nothing else, this blog will be used of GOD to " strengthen " THAT WHICH REMAINS."
Hmmm...the remnants. :)
Dr. Loney,
Welcome back.
With your prestigious connections in the medical community, I am sure you have a colleague who will be happy to remove your tattoo with a laser removal system. If you don't, I will be happy to oblige for the right price. I'm no doctor, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express about three years ago.
Know what I'm sayin' yo?
Ima..
My life changed irrevocably 17 years ago..
I was made acutely aware of the new age movement, and I now see it as having infiltrated every last institution in America and the planet, and going largely unnoticed by 95% of those who call themselves Christians.
I have a lifestory as compelling as any you might hear, but...
I will say only this..
God answered the prayer of a 9 year old, when as a grade school child I urgently prayed that if there were to be a deception of the entire planet ( as Scripture promised )that would occur in my lifetime, that God would protect me from that deception, and even assist me to stand for Jesus Christ and Truth in the end times.
He has answerred that prayer in the affirmative.
Praise OUR GREAT AND MIGHTY Lord.
Karen...'I've been trying to find good out of the fiasco that is BBC'
Reply: Believe me Karen, you will see...there are many blessinga coming from this. Truth being one of them. God is moving.
Folks, I am convinced that my situation is a result of the continuous prayers of a godly mother. Pray for the salvation of your children! Pray for them to receieve a regenerated heart!!Teach them deep spritual truths of scripture...they are probably not hearing it in church. If they lie, read them Rev 21. Teach them the Beatitudes. Teach them that hell is real. Teach them Matthew 7.
And keep them out of 'youth church'
Chances are very good they will face persecution for the Name of Christ.
Lin & Mom4, I'm breaking my word to Nass about 'one' comment, so I hope she will forgive. As Bratton would say: I opine like and thusly so:
Lin: No, presently I am not married, but I am always on the lookout for the next ex-Ms. Loney. As far as children, the state of Tennessee and the AMA have been granted a permissave court order strictly forbidding the contiuation of the Loney bloodline, via Bill.
Mom4: Nass and I have an 'agreement' concerning my presence, but thanks for your kind BillLoneyful attitude. Besides, my internet connection is thru a hybrid C/B-transistor radio invention of mine, and when the comments get above about 30, it usually takes about an hour to connect to the blogsite.
Anything else will have to be answered via email, until a later time in PM. Non-medical inquiries require no donation.
William T. Loney, M.D.
Watchman...you have an interesting story to tell. Have you read Running Against the Wind by Bryan Flynn? I suspect you have. We just think PD is bad...this New Age, Contemplative Prayer, Emergent is something else. We MUST be well grounded in the Word to be prepared.
ima..
Yes,..I have
and I have also read Hidden Dangers of The Rainbow..by Constance Cumbey
and
The Light that was Dark..by Warren Smith
Dr. Bill Loney! Oh bologna! I betcha we could get a petition going to get you back with us!
Here...I'll sign first!
1-Ima
For a very compelling look at what most Christians have not been warned against..
Here is yet another facet of TRUTH, going largely unnoticed.
Check out this video of Constance Cumbey ..taped in 2006, ragarding her discovery of the new age movement and what led her to write her book " Hidden Dangers of The Rainbow"
CONSTANCE CUMBEY EXPLAINS HER BOOK " HIDDEN DANGERS OF THE RAINBOW"
Watchman,
Haven't read the two you menion, but did catch Deceived on Purpose by Warren Smith though and it is great. My husband and I have read many of these books and I'd have to say my favorite is Redifining Christianity by Bob DeWaay. All of his writings are great and are to be found on his website as I am sure you already know. My husband is just starting Truth Wars by John MacArthur and says it is very good so far. We must stay up on what is going on in the world of disceit in order to combat it. We must proclaim Truth on every corner.
Watchman, just as I was typing this out to post you, my husband came into the office looking for a highliter. He is not even out of the introduction and is singing praises to John MacArthur for this book, Truth Wars-Fighting for Certainty in an Age of Deception. I had to stop for him to read to me. :) No doubt it is an exceptional book. Everybody should read it.
Ima
Ima..
I have read all of the books and authors you mentioned..
I also recommend the video from Cross TV ...by John Macarthur..
DOES THE TRUTH MATTER ANYMORE?
A detailed look at the perils of the seeker sensitive movement as compared to GODS WORD.
The Truth does not change because our point of view does.
-Truth Wars:John MacArthur
Here is a link to CROSS TV and the 5 part video series :
Does The TRUTH Matter anymore?
john macarthur video series
Okay, guys.....earlier we were talking about using the Bible exclusively....now it's okay to study with John McArthur? I'm not arguing, I like John McArthur, just trying to re-enforce my position that God does use men but everything needs to be read through the filter of scripture.
And lest I sound like a seminary student, I used "men" in a generic way...God can also use women!
;)
concerned"
The Bible is the arbiter and judge of all mens teachings..
The day that any man brings something that is not supported by Scripture, that is the day that a discerninfg believer must abandon that teacher in favor of The Truth of GODS WORD.
No one is stating that preaching be excluded in favor of the exclusive use of The Bible.
But.. we are saying that any preacher, teacher, mom, Dad, or love language proponent must have all they claim as TRUTH to be examined according the unchanging Standard of GODS WORD.concerned: There is no compromise here, I dont know why you even would suggest there was.
Watchman...
You don't find these books at Lifeway either, do you!
I think we are saying the same thing! I think we exactly agree! Whew, I thought so...just wanted to clarify.
I didn't suggest a compromise....there is NO compromise for God's Word.
Consider yourself " clarified"
Just catching up guys....
A lot of folks here seem to have the picture or are fast getting it..
However, there are those that are lurking and to those I say:
Pay close attention to what has been said regarding deception and the direction of todays churches. The WORD is your only protection from false prophets and false doctrine. There appears to be more than enough of both going around these days.
As I have said before, I have only read the Bible through one time and I am now up through Isaiah 50 this morning. The prophecy revealed is just as relevant today as it was when it was written! I get frustrated when I try to find a way to communicate what He is showing me through study of the WORD. My words just can't do it.
But believe me, the deception we see, the apparent blinding and the affliction is all explained in the WORD. Spirits of deception, spirits of error and confusion abound at BBC. And they are there for a purpose. HIS purpose.
God will certainly hold false prophets to a higher standard and more severe punishment. But that won't do anything for your salvation. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling and do it in the WORD! Do it today, don't delay!
May God bless the people willing to determine the will of the Lord through reading His WORD then being obedient to Him.
Many here seem to share similar experiences and what we all seem to have in common is affliction, followed by a turning to God through his WORD and a whole new level of respect and fear of the most Holy God. That is the message repeated over and over in the OT. History is repeating iself with the Gentiles. God appears to be offering us the same opportunity to repent and turn to Him that He offered the Jews. He is patient and long suffering but as we see with the Jews, there is ultimately an end to that suffering.
You won't get that on Sunday mornings from a preacher interested only in filling pews and building the work of man's hands. You will only get that from the TEACHER that loves you. The WORD+Holy Spirit.
Thanks! :)
Ok.. somebody sum up for me...
Can we read books or not? Does it HAVE to be the 1611 version of the King James Bible ONLY?
Oh.. and Beth Moore... is she ok or not?
What about Chuck Swindoll... haven't seen him mentioned...
And Andy Stanley, Charles Stanley, Ed Young (both Sr. and Jr.)....
Oh.. and one other question...
Did we celebrate Easter yesterday or Resurrection Sunday??
I received a group email about signing the petition. Apparently, a few of the people that also received it responded and then hit
"RESPOND TO ALL"...oh my goodness!! These people have their head so deep in the sand it is scarey. They are saying that we have a spirit of distrust and suspicion and not love.
They also said that they trust Dr. Gaines.??????
ARE THEY AWARE that the man has broken the law? DO I need to send them the 17 point list I made a few weeks ago?
How do you trust a man that has worked overtime at destroying trust?
I just don't get it.
But like Karen said earlier today, i now understand how people will be so mislead by the antichrist.
Does anyone know if this sort of thing has swept our country before now? Is this new? ( PDL churches)
I just wonder if this is in preparation for the antichrist?
Anyone?
I wouldnt trust a golden retriever , long haired malamute, nor a springer spaniel if they dared mix TRUTH with error.
As for sarcastically listing 5 or 6 names as a comedic and measured means to negate "testing all things " or to suggest that Christians should trust men by virtue of their current noteriety or name recognition, that , spaniel, is seriously and Biblically flawed..and is NOT funny, as it aims to minimize Gods clear call to examine all things aka Biblical discernment.
Concerned...
I cannot add anything more meaningful to what Watchman has already said in relation to your question. I can say to beware of anything relating to 'felt needs'. We have to be so careful because there is such great intent to brainwash. Satan is such a deceiver.
I would recommend John MacArthur's new book, Truth Wars...mainly because he does such a greater job of saying what I want to say and make blunders trying. :) He does a brilliant job of explaining what these movements are, what to watch for and how to deal with this. He also talks about how spiritually malnourished we all are.
SOTL
You have piggy mail. :0)
I've been "lurking" for a while. Noticing all the comments on new age, seeker friendly, etc. We receive a monthly newsletter from Dave Hunt called, "The Berean Call". He has been speaking out on all these issues for many years. He had much to say about jumping on the bandwagon of Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ" and so many other issues; PDL, Dobson, name it and claim it preachers, etc. He also has a website: www. thebereancall.org. Its difinately worth checking out.
Springer: This is the bottom line from all those posts (this from Watchman)
"The Bible is the arbiter and judge of all mens teachings..
The day that any man brings something that is not supported by Scripture, that is the day that a discerninfg believer must abandon that teacher in favor of The Truth of GODS WORD.
No one is stating that preaching be excluded in favor of the exclusive use of The Bible.
But.. we are saying that any preacher, teacher, mom, Dad, or love language proponent must have all they claim as TRUTH to be examined according the unchanging Standard of GODS WORD."
I know it seemed a bit confusing so I went back and re-read everything to be sure we were saying the same thing- we were! Hope this helps!
Thanks, Watchman!
Another great new book that is not shy about naming names is:
THIS FAITHFUL CHURCH STAYED HOME "
by Pastor Gary Gilley
Link is here :
this faithful, little church stayed home
springerspaniel,
The only way to spot any counterfeit is to know the real thing so well that the counterfeit is obvious. Then you never have to wonder or ask.
Ima: You're preaching to the choir! Having gone through a PDL split, I know exactly what you are talking about. Thanks for helping. I'm with you.
:)
Watchman,
Gary Gilley is a good discerner. I read "This Little Church Went to Marker"...and boy! did it ever!
Springerspanial,
This is to the rebellious children of Israel. Remember, today the gentiles are grafted in…”they are not all Israel that are of Israel” (Romans 9:6).
I have quoted the ESV version as you seem to have a problem with kjv. However you will find similar wording there as well.
Isaiah 30 1"Ah, stubborn children," declares the LORD,
"who carry out a plan, but not mine, and who make an alliance,[a] but not of my Spirit, that they may add sin to sin;
2who set out to go down to Egypt, without asking for my direction,to take refuge in the protection of Pharaoh and to seek shelter in the shadow of Egypt!
3Therefore shall the protection of Pharaoh turn to your shame,
and the shelter in the shadow of Egypt to your humiliation.
4For though his officials are at Zoan and his envoys reach Hanes,
5everyone comes to shame
through a people that cannot profit them, that brings neither help nor profit, but shame and disgrace."
The WORD repeatedly warns Israel to not go down to Egypt or buy their horses. I think this little jewel explains that.
Isaiah 31:1Woe to those who go down to Egypt for help and rely on horses, who trust in chariots because they are many and in horsemen because they are very strong, but do not look to the Holy One of Israel or consult the LORD! 2And yet he is wise and brings disaster; he does not call back his words, but will arise against the house of the evildoers
and against the helpers of those who work iniquity.
3The Egyptians are man, and not God, and their horses are flesh, and not spirit.
When the LORD stretches out his hand, the helper will stumble, and he who is helped will fall, and they will all perish together.
In my own experience, the preacher could not help, doing church did not help, Christian counselors did little to help but turning to the WORD has been life itself and abundant at that!
Are these book you are reading pointing you to the cross? To the WORD? Maybe they are. What if they don't?
Now you tell me, where do you want to put your faith?
Has anyone else been telling their friends to watch the business meeting on YouTube? The Manning/Angel video clip just got an award from YouTube for being in the top 75 most watched News/Politics Videos for today.
Not long after that, someone from Bellevue called and had them pull the plug.
I can't beleive these guys are ashamed of what they did. They want everyone to play by the rules and then they don't want anyone to see what they pulled.
This is another example of a dictatorship behind the pulpit.
It's catching up with them as they are not able to hide any longer.
Sorry...a correction. "This Little Church Went to Market" (not Marker)
HELLLLLLOOOOOO!!! THERE'S A NEW THREAD IF YOU'D LIKE TO MOVE UP.
Thank you,
NBBCOF
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