PREACHER PREDATORS: INVESTIGATING CHILD SEX ABUSE IN THE PROTESTANT CHURCH
JIM AVILA REPORTS ON ABC NEWS' "20/20," FRIDAY, APRIL 13
JIM AVILA REPORTS ON ABC NEWS' "20/20," FRIDAY, APRIL 13
Child sex abuse by Catholic priests has been headline news in recent years, but is the same abuse happening within Protestant churches? In a six-month investigation, ABC News' "20/20" found preacher predators in every corner of the country, including several affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) -- the largest Protestant denomination. Jim Avila's exclusive report airs on "20/20," FRIDAY, APRIL 13 (9:00-10:00 p.m., CT), on the ABC Television Network (Channel 24 in Memphis).
Avila's reporting finds that the SBC, an organization of 43,000 independent churches and 16.3 million members – has an overall structure that makes it difficult to police preacher predators. One example includes a profile of a SBC pastor who abused kids in Kentucky and then moved on to do the same to eight boys in Missouri before he was finally sent to prison. In an interview with Avila, the SBC president concedes that there is a problem with tracking predators.
"20/20" lists numerous SBC preachers who have been convicted or charged with child sex abuse, including pastors still identified on the SBC's own website of ordained ministers.
Avila also interviews a preacher who admits, in his jobs as Southern Baptist preacher and teacher in East Texas, that he molested more than 40 boys. For the first time, Ken Ward speaks publicly about how he manipulated families and churches as he targeted and molested children in his care, and how the church is actually a magnet for predators. "I wanted them to love me and that was part of the strategy," Ward tells Avila. He also gives insight to parents about how to spot a predator.
"20/20" is anchored by Elizabeth Vargas and John Stossel. David Sloan is the executive producer.
Here is a video preview.
504 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 504 of 504I just watched this video that Tim posted on 4/14/07 12:41pm. I also cried and am grieved to the very core of my being.
Every so called leader of Bellevue that is supporting Steve Gaines or anyone connected with the approval or delivery of the 25,000 check to the apostate church FUMC, (that openly approves murder of innocent babies and homosexuality,) or anyone that knew better and did not speak out against it should be forced to watch this video, then immediately resign their current position and banned from any future positions of Bellevue Baptist Church. The blood of these babies are on your hands!!
This is MURDER in HATCHET job form. You all would be up in arms if a madman was in our city and abducting innocent children and mutilating them then trying to lay the pieces back together on a cold hard piece of metal, yet you carelessly and unprayerfully give Bellevue tithes and offerings that have been trusted to you to further the work of satan.
God is not pleased.
How have you been spending the money that Christian people have been sacrifically giving to further the work of our LORD??!!
Open the books, as required by Tennessee State Law, if you have nothing to hide.
All of you are an abomination before the Lord.
Steve Gaines and all of you need to repent before it is too late.
Bellevue Baptist Church needs a mighty revival.
If I sound angry, I am! I considered waiting until I returned from worship service today (not at BBC) to address this video and the sins in our church, but decided righteous anger is what we all need to make a difference in the path our church is taking.
All of you who have sat in silence, STAND UP FOR OUR LORD!!!
Anybody have any idea how many people have left Bellevue? How many have left who are visiting in hopes Bellevue will be 'saved'? How many have actually moved their membership to another church? Do you have any idea how many have joined Bellevue since the onset of these atrocities...say, since Steve Gaines told about the dream and the trespassing?
(Ever think of the opposite ends of the stick when you think of how 'bothered' Gaines was by an elderly man saying 'Amen' in the congregation and how not bothered he is by the the thunderous music he wants for the seekers and the PD movement? Ridiculous.)
Tim, I am proud of you too(along with the list you gave)!
Our family stood up, alone....... all the upper uppity ups know our name, and why we left...but we were alone at that time.
I was so hopeful with all that has surface everyone that knew the truth would stand up together, and not be afraid of reprisals (sp?), ostrasizing, being lied about.....and on and on.
I can't believe it is too late for BBC, ....it's not..... if EVERYONE who cares about godliness in ministry at BBC, stands like we,(our familiy, the Sharpes, the Emersons, Josh Manning, you, and others) have & let thier faces and names be know.
I won't put my name on here- because I have moved on, and don't want the ministers in the wrong to start calling me AGAIN, writing letters to me AGAIN, lying about me AGAIN, lying to me AGAIN, visits(this didn't happen to me, but you know it is a tactic they have used in the past).
I am praying for BBC.
God bless you all!
OC
lwood said,
I think if you read this we are all saying the same thing.....There is no need for the Rogers family to defend anything. The men of Bellevue need to stand and be counted instead of running to another church and hoping the few of us left will defend...so they can return....Sorry to sound so down but I am this morning.
OC says: Actually, I was agreeing with you. I reread my post and I realize it may have come across differently. My apologies for the inaccutate tone of my post. OC
There were at least 2 couples I personally know that joined GBC this morning. Both couples were long time members of BBC and one couple I know was a very large contributor to many programs. They have been visiting GBC for many months. People are leaving in droves. Every week I see new BBC faces. Families are going here, there and everywhere to get away from the sin that besets Bellevue. For many, there seems to be no hope and I believe it is because they don't see anyone in leadership making a stand for truth at all. Ministers are hush hush, afraid for their jobs, staff is either brainwashed or don't care. Deacons are doing absolutely nothing with the exception of THREE I know of - the rest are hiding in a closet somewhere I guess - or they don't care. NO ONE WILL DARE ROCK THE BOAT FOR FEAR OF A MAN! How are you going to face Jesus and tell him why you did not make a stand. Heavens sake folks, they spit in his face, mocked, beat and crucified him for US. Can you not stand in the gap for His church?
NO wonder people are leaving. They see none but a handful of women and a few men doing anything at all and most of that is pleading for you to stand up for Jesus! We can't have a meeting off campus because people are afraid to be seen or heard - WHAT ARE YOU AFRAID OF?? STEVE GAINES IS JUST A MAN - ONE OF NO INTEGRITY OR HE WOULD NOT BRUISE THE CAUSE OF CHRIST - HE IS A JUDAS! AND YOU FEAR HIM????
As Paul Harvey says "Don't you know the "rest of the story"???"
Dr Spradlin spoke at Collierville First Baptist Church. He preached an excellent sermon!
I'm glad to hear folks are being fed. I heard a good sermon this morning as well...on worship..taken from Rev. 15.
"Anybody have any idea how many people have left Bellevue? How many have left who are visiting in hopes Bellevue will be 'saved'? How many have actually moved their membership to another church? Do you have any idea how many have joined Bellevue since the onset of these atrocities...say, since Steve Gaines told about the dream and the trespassing?"
If what I saw this morning was any indication, they are losing more than what they are gaining. The 9:30 Career assembly was empty compared to what it was 4 months ago.
upside down,
I didn't detect any rejoicing in mom4's post..in fact I think it's just the opposite..she was making an observation which we've all made and know to be true...people are leaving BBC. If you believe you are to stay and continue at BBC, then you certainly have my best wishes(no sarcasm in that statement). Leaving one's church home is a traumatic experience...so I don't think anyone here is rejoicing over those who are leaving...if anyone rejoices over it, I would imagine it would be the leadership and those who support them, who have stated over and over..."why don't you just leave?"
It would appear that by and large they are getting what they requested. I think it's also fair to say that those in dissent have been the object of quite a bit of "bashing" as well. jmo
upside down,
Please let me appologize if I in anyway gave you the impression that I was rejoicing in the departure of the 2 couples I had mentioned in my previous post. My point was that these are two couples who have been at BBC for many years, and one is a generous donor (I know first hand!) which means that BBC is loosing her base, her core and her long term members. These people taught classes, led mission trips and were personal friends to the Rogers' family. This is not only a loss of some high profile members, but anytime ANYONE is forced to leave the church God has called them to, it is a great divorce not sanctioned by Him and the responsible parties will be held accountable for it! I feel for you and your family if you are in any way trying to worship our Lord under Steve Gaines. Please pray that the Lord will reveal to you the scriptures taken our of context, the unscriptural treatment of the membership and staff and the mis-management of funds as well as the way we ALL were treated at the business meeting and how the leadership, especially Steve Gaines and David Coombs gloated over shutting down the meeting when they saw the pedophile victim approaching the mic. This is an abomination before the Lord and it needs to be addressed or Bellevue will continue to slide further into an apostate state. If you continue to tolerate the leadership's sin, you will be subjecting your family to conditions not worthy of the high calling of a Christian. I apologize for offending you with my remarks. I feel very strongly about the demise of holiness and integrity in my church.
Upside down, you said:
Those of us who continue to worship at Bellevue are hurting enough without the 'piling on taking place'. I am not feeling a lot of love 'one for another' from many of you who post. Please pray for those of us who continue to worship our Lord at Bellevue.
Please know that I do pray daily for those as Bellevue. I am not sure what you mean by "hurting enough" to continue to worship at BBC. If you support the current pastor and staff, what is the source of your hurt? If you are hurt by the ignoring of sin and glorification of a man, I can understand your hurt.
notaclapper was my blog name early on, I then changed to Lily. What happened here? The blog challenged one does not understand.
Someone tell me what I should do to make the correction.
Well, Lily said, somehow it corrected itself. Technology is amazing.
upside down,
FYI, WE didn't leave BBC, BBC left us!
lily,
I had a different user ID name early on as well. I have no clue what happens, but sometimes it realy does fix itself! go figure.
Hi sotl,
I missed seeing you this morning. Perhaps it was bc we were late! We left in plenty of time, but thought we would try a new way of getting there. We won't do that again! HA! I guess there is really not a short cut to get from one end of town to the other in 30 minutes or less..
Furthermore, upside down, if you are still worshipping there, I hold the opinion that harboring a pedophile for 6 months and thereby subjecting every child in that church to the predator makes you appear to not be offended by pedophilia.
Please DO NOT respond with " well, I didnt' agree with how SG handled it BUT................."
That's like saying about abortion,
" Well, I wouldn't have one myself, BUT..............."
So save it.
I am VERY suspicious of ANYONE who continues to go into that worship center and "worship" with SG at the helm.
EVEN when you KNOW that he " felt compassion" for a man that would sodomize his own son.
Even when you KNOW that he hid that pedophile for 6 months, even giving him a raise during that period.
If that, in itself, did not destroy his credibility in your eyes, NOTHING WILL!!!
You will accept ANYTHING that man does.
Even after he stood up there and LIED during the passion play that the Rogers had been so supportive of him.
You no longer care about Biblical truths.
May God have mercy on you.
I think what SOTL is trying to say is that, Gaines has on numerous occasions disrespected the pulpit and in essence put every child at Bellevue in danger. While the reports did not find any other cases of abuse, the risk was still there. That is negligence on Gaines part as well as Wayne Webb's and other who knew but failed to do anything.
Sin cannot be tolerated, even when its the pastor who has sinned himself (Trespassing, harboring the pedophiles, treating those who disagree with him like dirt, rigging the business meeting as if it was a WWE Wrestling match, etc). At this point, in order for Bellevue to heal, Gaines has to go.
Upside down said "Christ commanded that we are identified to the world by our love one to another".
Please don't stop there. Christ has also commanded that we be set apart and different from the world.
lnxipaiwUpside down,
I can't believe you are going to come on here and say you are not feeling the love from those on here. Why do you think so many of us left? We could say the exact same thing. No one has found it easy to leave. It was hard to leave a place we considered "home, a place were we were raised and were raising our own families. There is no rejoicing in that. I can't help but to feel like you are trying to rub salt in the wound by coming on here and saying that. We all simply took the offer of it you don't like it than leave. Stating facts and feelings is not bashing Bellevue. But, it seems like to alot still at Bellevue just the act of leaving is bashing.
"Love one another" reminds me of the sixties hippy movement and is a mainstay of the "movement". Ignoring sin, ingoring Scripture - just love one another and everything will be alright. An alright road to Hell if the Scripture is ignored in its entirety.
When was love shown to CW by the current administration?
Psalm 97:10 says "You who love the Lord, hate evil! He preserves the souls of His saints; He delivers them out of the hand of the wicked."
Where was the love at the dog and pony show a/k/a businees meeting? I was sneered at, jeered at, etc. I did not care, as I knew I was standing for what was biblicaly right.
upside down said...
Lily, take it up with Christ. It was His commandment to you
And all His Kingdom!
upside down
I've never been to a "sin-free" church, but BBC was once a place where sin was condemned and the pastol led by example.
Not anymore.
upside down
Love is telling the truth even when it hurts. If I tickle your ears but din't say the truth, that is not love.
Upside down, you said "we're talking about love shown me".
Please accept my apology for anything personal you perceived.
It's not about you, me, us, etc.
it's about HIM and HIS WORD.
Upside Down said: "SOTL, Christ commanded that we are identified to the world by our love one to another."
I'm sorry. I did not see that your post was specifically aimed at the love you have felt personally. You said the world identifies us by the love we show to one another. I was not trying to diffuse your question when I asked, "Where was the love shown to CW?"
I am sorry that you haven't felt love. It seems to be a common situation for BBC members.
Well, well, well...
It seems the banned former Dr. JMO has returned and is now calling him or herself "upside down." Say bye-bye! "Upside down" has left the building!
My pastor preached an excelent sermon this morning on Luke 9:23-27:
And he said to all, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it. For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses or forfeits himself? For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, of him will the Son of Man be ashamed when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God."
The sermon was on the call to sacrifice and death to self, both for salvation and for our daily walk with the Lord. It was a convicting and powerful message on the cost of following Jesus -- repentance from sin, surrender to the absolute Lordship of Christ in all things, death to self. I wish everyone could have heard it.
It made me feel sorry for those who do not have the opportunity to hear such sermons because of the feel-good, easy-believism messages in so many churches today ... and even sorrier for those who chose to worship in such churches instead of finding a place where God's Word is honored and preached.
Thank you, NASS.
Let me clarify my last post ... I did not mean to be critical of those who chose to stay at BBC or anywhere else in hopes of making a difference or standing for the truth. I meant that I feel sorry for those who choose to be in a church with bad preaching who like it and don't see anything wrong with it! I very much admire those who can stand and stay and fight for truth in spite of being unhappy in a worship service.
Please know that many of us are choosing to stay at Bellevue because of commitments and obligations we want to fullfill. We believe that we can do so as "unto the Lord" and not Bellevue or Steve Gaines. Yes, we believe SG has compromised his authority, so Instead of hearing him brag on his "30 point sermon" (Easter) or tell the visitors to get their gift bag of "Bellevue propoganda" (March 25) We can continue to work and serve in the areas we have been called. We can be fed spiritually by listening to radio pastors, and webcasts.
Perhaps for "such a time as this" we can let those we work with know our views.
You may view us a weak or cowardly, but until God leads otherwise we will be missionaries, so to speak, at our own beloved church.
Because He Lives, we will continue.
P.S.
By the way, Mike Spradlin preached a wonderful sermon Wed. October 26, 2005 at Bellevue called "Selling Tickets to the Holy of Holies". Its worth getting. You will only need the date to get it from the bookstore.
It may have been one of his last, sadly to say.
my2cents,
I don't think you cowardly for staying and honoring your commitments. We each have to do as we feel the Lord calling us to do. He may call some to stay and some to leave, and we are not to question God's calling in each other's lives. Our family did choose to leave and we have been called so many things from disloyal to Dr. Roger's worshippers. We need to realize that whatever the choices we make, if we are making them in obedience to Christ, then they are not wrong and don't deserve name calling in any way. My prayers are with you and your family.
Doreen and Paslm 43:3:
Thank you for your kind comments.
I will pray for your families as well. My time here is up and I must be going till next time.
God bless you all
I realize that many have commitments and are honoring those. Those are not the ones I am talking about.
I am talking about the ones that eagerly enter the worship center, smiling like a cheshire cat, to here the blasphemer do some more blaspheming, and then not having enough sense to know that is what he is doing.
I am talking about the ones that say:
"Well, I did not agree with the way he handled PW, BUT........."
Actions speak louder than words. When I hear someone say that, and then run after SG to kiss his ring, it makes them look like they are one french fry short of a happy meal.
They remind me of people who say:
" I am against abortion PERSONALLY, BUT..............."
I am VERY suspicious of people who defend him, support him, revere him, BELIEVE him, and then say, " well, I don't agree wtih the way he handled PW"
To that i say:
That may be so, but let's face it, it didn't OUTRAGE you...It just sorta bothered you....a little.
Therefore, pedophilia is not particularly offensive to you.
my2cents- Excellent post. We express our obedience to the Lord through a church, not to a church for its own sake. There are many at BBC who have made leadership commitments to the Lord who are not yet free to leave. Others remain to be a witness for Him. As we continue to see a drastic decline in attendance, giving, and decisions, let’s remember to pray for the lost in our community who need to hear the gospel and be saved.
Brady, don't start. Just don't.
Out of respect to the victim and his family, we have agreed not to use any of their names in comments.
NBBCOF
New BBC Open Forum said...
Well, well, well...
It seems the banned former Dr. JMO has returned and is now calling him or herself "upside down."
REPLY:
GOOD CATCH!!!!!!!!!!
Brady: It's not hard. All you have to do is use PW out of respect. It has been requested by the victim and we owe him that courtesy.
OK. Just for your morbid fascination with all that has happened you can read all about it at www.stopbaptistpredators.com
There is a complete article about "you know who" (PW) and a huge picture of BBC.
I was merely commenting to show how far the reputation of BBC has fallen and nothing else. You guys need to chill out.
brady,
I realize the name is all over the place. But purely out of respect to the victim and his family, I and others have respectfully asked that people not use their names on this forum. I have no control over what people do elsewhere. But can you not extend them that much respect?
I wasn't disrespecting either Paul and/or his family. I was just stating a fact about what was on that website. The use of "PW" is not really any different.
My apologies if I offended anyone.
brady,
Thank you for "cleaning" that up. That's all I asked. However, given your penchant for coming here to stir up things, I couldn't help but think you had ulterior motives. My apologies.
By the way, I don't know of anyone here who has any "morbid curiosity" about this issue.
Hey, I am chilled...just want to be respectful at the same time.
:)
"I wasn't disrespecting either Paul and/or his family."
No, you were disrespecting the victim.
To All Hanging on at Bellevue:
My blog name says it all. We endured 14 years under SG. I am so sorry for the hardships SG has put you all under.
Hang on if you can! On SG's famous resignation speech, we were among the
"Dry Eyes" vs the "Wet Eyes." We were determined to outlast him. We were glad to see him go.
bent,
Don't ya'll want him back? We'll pay you to take him.
SOTL,
LOL, you are so baaaaaaad! :)
bent
How on earth did you sit under him that long?
And what kind of shenanigans did he get away with there - besides the arrogance and running off good folks?
This may sound like a dumb idea, but what kind of attention would the situation get if the men of Bellevue who were concerned about the leadership, picketed, there are so many that want things be be handled in a godly way, these men could probably circle the entire complex of buildings...or at least march spaced out around them. The signs could say....Matthew 18.... Repentance..... Truth.... positive things that need to happen at BBC.
Crowds today were not that great at BBC but tonight that was a different story to say the least. Today the college ministry welcomed Donna Gaines as a new Bible Fellowship teacher. Mrs Higgy has also rejoined the staff at BBC as director of prayer. Tonight BBC said goodbye to Jason Tallant with him taking a new job as a pastor.
inmemphis,
Are you saying that there was a larger crowd tonight than there was this morning?
In my observation the crowds seemed larger tonight than they were today atleast in the sanctuary at 9:30 still not a full house but more than we have seen on a Sunday night in a while. I do find it strange that many of the people on Sunday night are not familiar looking so to speak and some of them show like no emotion one way or the other and it may mean nothing but just an observation from my end.
"I do find it strange that many of the people on Sunday night are not familiar looking so to speak and some of them show like no emotion one way or the other and it may mean nothing but just an observation from my end."
I would say this is a part of the agenda of PD. Out with the old and in with the new. The old would vote against you and the new, molded to your liking, will vote with you. :) It is that simple.
This is just an opinion and I feel certain that is surprising to most on the blog because I so rarely express an opinion...:)
I would expect that there were quite a number of people that wanted to see Jason Tallant off and wish him well. I believe that he has earned the respect of quite a number of Bellevue members and many chose to endure a dime store sermon out of repect for Jason. This is another fine minister that will be greatly missed.
Tim,
I stand corrected and gladly so. Sorry you are losing a good one.
So does it appear with the addtion of Carolyn Higginbotham to the staff at Bellevue that we know where she stands at this point on the issues? Also why would Donna Gaines want to begin teaching a college Sunday School class?
inmemphis said...
"why would Donna Gaines want to begin teaching a college Sunday School class?"
INFLUENCE!
Many of the age group are still impressionable. Why do you think there was such an uproar over liberal theologians teaching in SBC colleges? Because they, being in a position of authority, have the capabilities to influence the young people of today - the leaders of tomorrow.
The devil has his hands all over this!
I just got word that Mark Dougharty has been FIRED. Will let you know if I hear more.
Someone referenced the Easter sermon with 30 points. Having more than a little experience in seeker friendly, PD, or whatever you want to call it, churches, I think the new reverend has been mislabeled. No 'friendly' church reverend would have more than 4-6 fill in the blanks and sermon time is sensitive - 20-30 minutes. Every time I see the sermon outline with one time as many as 45 fill-in-the-blanks I go into culture shock. And in a multi service setting for a reverend to deliberately go over the time to end one service so that the exit and entrance of those going and coming is frustrated is the height of presumption. So, folks, he doesn't fit that mold. My guess he feels that he is standing in for God and will do whatever he 'senses' is the right thing, everyone else's needs are not important. I find that contrary to the seeker friendly or PD church / pastor model. I think he is just the type Baptist preacher that is gonna run it his way.
Eprov,
Well, whatever you wanna call him..PD, CGM...doesn't make any difference.
He's a sociopath and a pedophile hider.
MD FIRED?
Now you have to wonder WHAT could a ringkisser do to get fired?
The very WORST thing I can think of didn't get PW fired.
I KNOW!!!
I just figured it out!!!
I know why he got fired!!!!
He parked in SG's parking space!!!
:)
Who says MD was fired?
allofgrace said...
Who says MD was fired?
REPLY:
That's the word I got an hour ago.
From where if I can ask? Email me if you like.
RE: Mark Dougharty...
I am wondering if they are putting out rumors just to see where their leaks are? Has this been verified?
allofgrace said...
From where if I can ask?
REPLY:
No, you may not ask.
MOM4 said...
RE: Mark Dougharty...
I am wondering if they are putting out rumors just to see where their leaks are? Has this been verified?
REPLY:
I have not personally called the office to verify. However, my source is VERY reliable.
Not a problem Charlie...we hear stuff like this all the time, that's why I asked.
Sooo....
First a huge link is put up to a sight run by a "former bellevue staff member" who is well... amazingly enough... anonymous yet making all kinds of claims about Bellevue and it's staff member...
And the it is claimed that Mark D. has been fired, yet it can't/won't be verified...
That fits my definition of rumor spreading.
Now... if M.D. has been fired... then obviously it isn't rumor spreading...
And... why did they show the front of Bellevue on the intro to the spot on 20/20... but then went on to well... make no mention whatsoever of Bellevue. I mean... I'm thinking that yeah... if not THE flagship church of the SBC, then certainly one of the top three SBC churches... and that scandal... then yeah... it at least deserves a passing comment. But... nothing. I was quite surprised. And Wolf-man... that dude's a nut.
And i'm quite sure that this was already discussed, but I didn't scroll back.
Carolyn Higginbotham is an great prayer warrior and Bellevue is so blessed to have her leading up our prayer ministry.
RE: Carolyn Higgenbotham
I'm sure she's a great prayer warrior, BUT, is she going to have to sign the pledge to Stevie Wonder?
If so, I would think that would negate anything else she did, since she would be making her pledge to SG, and not to GOD.
Charlie,
You have mail!
Has anyone got any ideas as to why Jeremiah is practically the only book in the Bible to use the word "Pastor"? One reference uses it in Ephesians but outside that, everything else is some other type of leader, elder, Bishop or priest....Is Jeremiah's prophesy pointed at the church of today just as it was pointed at the church of old?
PASTORS
amy,
Back at cha.
Ezekiel,
In Jeremiah,the word 'pastor'should properly be rendered 'shepherd' or 'ruler'. I don't know why your version renders it as 'pastor'.
oc,
He referenced King James.
The post below is a response from Josh Manning to the overused criticism that those calling out the sin in the pulpit are divisive and troublemakers.
Worth a gander - since not much has changed since this was posted in November - not much except the pedophile incident, the check to FUMC, and the repeated denials of leadership to open the books or have a legitimate meeting. (sigh)
Custos said...
SendTheLight50 wrote:
"Did you all realize that Dr. Rogers introduced Purpose Driven Life to Bellevue, not Brother Steve?"
Yes, we all do. But this does not make its propriety different. Further, call Bill Skelton and ask what Dr Rogers take on seeker friendliness/full conversion to the PDC movement was. Bill will tell you that when they encountered these things at conferences, Dr Rogers would routinely say, "No, this is not the direction for us." He would pull what he thought was good from the movement (calling the church a campus, using IMAGs, etc), but absolutely knew that much of the stuff was not for the best.
"Did you all realize that Dr. Rogers prayed that Brother Steve would come to Bellevue?"
Yes, we all do. And many of us did too. How does that prayer at all effect the issues of accountability, integrity, and transparency that face us now? Surely the argument isn't that "Since Dr Rogers wanted him here, he's doing just fine [my words not yours]."
"You do not have to participate in causing conflicts among the members."
You're right, but at some point mustn't one stand? (Yes, I did just use the contraction "mustn't.") At what point should one stand?
"Those of you who are participating in the anti-Gaines slander and gossip are trouble makers-not peace makers."
Wait a minute, have you seen how many issues have been clarified through this medium? Far more than were dealt with by the CC (ironic initials) publication which had numerous half-truths. Second, you referred to troublemakers. I'm betting the same moniker was used for Moses, Elijah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jesus, Peter, and Paul just to name a few. Standing for what's right when it's not popular is troublemaking, but it's not necessarily wrong.
"Peace makers would rather be wronged and walk away than cause problems to escalate."
That's not what the Lord did in Matthew 23 nor what Paul did in numerous epistles. Further, isn't what you suggest the antithesis of your name, SendTheLight? Walking away rarely sheds any light. Declaring truth does.
"There is no way you can rationalize your behavior!"
It has been defended ad nauseum. If you disagree that's fine, but it would be nice if you'd take up some of arguments and present counter arguments.
11:42 AM, November 26, 2006
OK Charlie. That's right. Thanks.
Thanks OC.
Every KJV that I can find uses “Pastor”. The ESV uses “shepherd”, the NASB uses “ruler”.
ESV….Do these sound similar to you? Jeremiah 25 is particularly interesting… The cup of wrath….all nations…all people. Where is that Rapture now?
Jeremiah 25:29For behold, I begin to work disaster at the city that is called by my name, and shall you go unpunished? You shall not go unpunished, for I am summoning a sword against all the inhabitants of the earth, declares the LORD of hosts.'
1 Peter 4:17For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
By all means off topic from the discussion but the deadliest school shooting in U.S. history has taken place today on the campus of Virginia Tech with the death toll now at 21. We need to be praying for all of those that are involved in this horrible situation.
A word of encouragement for all you hard working "hate filled, gossips" out there...
Jeremiah was ONE voice that God chose to use to warn a whole NATION to repent and turn back to God. ONE VOICE in a whole nation...and NO ONE listened. Not even the remnant that went into Egypt....
We don't appear any more willing to repent and turn back to God any more today than they were then.
A quote from Rick Warren...
If you were to look for a church to attend, what kind of things would you look for? This single question taught me more about "thinking like a unbeliever” than my entire seminary training. I discovered that most churches are offering programs that the unchurched are uninterested in.
Tim says;
Well moo-moo, buckaroo. Do tell that most churches are offering programs that the unchurched are uninterested in. We could probably bring in a whole new group by selling discounted porno in the bookstore. Or perhaps just allowing people to check it out of the libary. The church was not designed by Jesus to be haven for the lost, but rather a refuge for the saints.
Tim,
I bet we could bring in a lot of unchurched with some sexy chicks in bikinis in the portico - but is that what church is for? Do we have to look and act like a nightclub/strip joint/enter your favorite unchurched activity here? I think the statement by Rick Warren is the single, most stupid comment ever to come from a "minister".
And by the way, is "moo moo, buckaroo" anything like "nah nee nah nee boo boo"? Just wondering...
Karen,
No we do not have to look like that and Bellevue does not and never will.
why the question:
Take THAT up with Jamie Parker who said on tv that in 5 years you wouldn't even recognize BBC.
Wonder what HE meant by that?
Why,
I don't want to argue with you, but you really don't know what will happen in the future of Bellevue.
In a million years you couldn't have convinced me that the Senior Pastor of BBC would have scaled a 4 foot fence to intimidate a fellow member, or called said member "hezbollah" or kept a pedophile on staff for 6 months or directed money to a apostate church, etc, etc, etc. Shall I go on?
So the motto "whatever it takes" really does apply to Bellevue and there's no telling what that entails or where the line will be crossed. Bellevue ain't Bellevue no more - they should change the name to Gainesville.
karen
why is the question?,
You must make your profile visible, or your comments will be deleted.
Thank you,
NBBCOF
Sorry, I fixed it.
charlie fox said...
allofgrace said...
Who says MD was fired?
REPLY:
That's the word I got an hour ago.
8:52 AM, April 16, 2007
A quick call to the church office will confirm that MD is on vacation and has not been fired. You may take this information as confirmed.
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