About Me
- New BBC Open Forum
- This forum was created to provide a place where those who are seriously concerned about the issues facing Bellevue Baptist Church and the SBC can come to comment and exchange ideas. Anonymous comments are welcome, but it is respectfully requested that instead of choosing the "Anonymous" option those who want to post comments without logging in select a unique screen name. This lets everyone tell the difference between one anon and another without revealing any personal information. Under the box where you compose your comment where it says "Choose an identity," just check "Name/URL" and type in the screen name of your choice. You can leave the URL field blank. It would be helpful if you'd use the same screen name for any subsequent comments. This makes reading and following discussions easier, helps avoid confusion, and doesn't result in one person being credited for writing something s/he didn't. Comments by posters whose only purpose is to disrupt (i.e. trolls) will be subject to deletion. Your cooperation will be appreciated.
725 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 600 of 725 Newer› Newest»Some one was asking the difference between licensing and ordination - the answer that was given is wrong.
Nothing is done by the state. The church does both licensing and ordination. Licensing allows a person to carry out official acts of a religious order - it allows them to marry and get the tax deductions that are awarded to ministers.
Piglet,
"There you have it, folks. They don't want to edify the saints. They want us out!!!! Just where do they want us to go, pray tell???
Why, oh why can't they start their own churches instead of throwing us out of ours????"
YES!!! This has been my heart's cry ever since it began happening to us! Why? Oh, why? can't people see and understand this 'fog' that is creeping ever so slowly into the churches? Bellevue hasn't even gotten started yet! They are just now phasing out the resistors! Just wait!!! Gaines' vision has not fully transpired yet! I only hope the people standing behind him will understand this before it is to late for them.
I don't know who Watchman is, but he is exposing truth!
I really appreciate you and your husband Piglet...you are doing a good work for Jesus. God bless you!
Ima
WCRV had a very good message on right now...very appropriate
Piglet
"He is not committed to BBC or he wouldn't be running off and preaching everywhere else instead of BBC on Wednesday nights."
And not only this Piglet, but if Gaines cared about Bellevue...in knowing he is the cause of the split, he would resign and leave. He knows he is the cause. Rick Warren would not be proud of Gaines...he is blowing it. Pastors.com advises a pastor to leave rather than stay when they make a mess of things.
MOM4 said...
WCRV had a very good message on right now...very appropriate
Mom4...what is the station? Don't know if I can get it or not, but I'll try. Is it am?
Ima
I thought these pastor's consider getting rid of us part of the "transitioning" and "dealing with resistors". You don't think he will rejoice when we've all gone?
Establishing Gods' Kingdom on Earth
GLOBAL DAY OF PRAYER
and the men behind this
GLOBAL DAY OF PRAYER AND KINGDOM NOW MOVEMENT
It was David Jeremiah on 640AM in MEMPHIS. You can always stream a lot of messages on ONEPLACE.COM if you have good internet access.
Just further clarification...
Tax benefits for minister are only for those who are ordained, not just licensed.
onlyamember said...
Speaking of Donna....
I was told today from a reliable source that Women's Ministry was going to start using ONLY Donna's materials. Does anyone know this to be fact? and how could we find out?
12:05 AM, March 27, 2007
Onlyamember,
It might be wise to speak with the Women's Ministry Office prior to making this assumption. I can assure you that a quick call to that office will reveal this rumor to be untrue.
"Pastors.com advises a pastor to leave rather than stay when they make a mess of things."
You know things are pretty bad when the likes of Warren suggest you leave...he is all about hijacking churches and running off believers in Christ.
Also, let me commend you for the vastly improved tone the last day or so. I think many have proven that you can disagree with one another and still maintain a respectful Christian attitude.
There is a well written report on the March 25th business meeting on SavingBellevue. Thanks, Carol Pemberton, for this report!
There is also audio of the pathetic excuse for the swift adjournment, with CW standing at the mike, unheard AGAIN.
I have a question about the giving for the past 12 months. According to the powers that be at the church, giving is up. Is this up for the entire year or are they averaging the 12 months? Would that include this time last year averaged into the present level of giving?
I am thinking that the present level of giving is down considerably, but when it is added into the giving of this time last year, it gives the appearance of being above budget. Is there anyone out there who would know the figures? (the church will not provide them to us)
LET HIM WHO HATH EARS ...HEAR
Its The VISION thing !!!!!
The "Vision thing" is destroying churches at a clip that is astounding and spiritually nauseous..
Here is one outspoken proponent of " DEVELOPING " your VISION ..through the ( imagination )ie: altered state of consciousness...
It is the proces of obtaining secret knowledge about "future events " that do not coincide with reality.
WOW
and then ...
once THE VISION is obtained...
HANG ONTO THAT VISION ...
No matter what !!!!!!!!!!!!!
This concept has been sweeping church leadership circles and business seminars globally for years now..
and it is forbidden by HOLY GOD in Deuteronomy ...
as divination
Look at this so-called secular business model example of HOW TO DEVELOP A VISION "..
CASTIBG A VISION
THEN ASK...
Is willow creek and the so called leadership summits promoting the same concepts through VISION CASTING seminars and training?
Now The SPIRIT speaketh expressly, that in latter times some shall depart from THE FAITH, GIVING HEED TO SEDUCING SPIRITS, AND DOCTRINES OF DEVILS, HAVING THEIR CONSCIENCE SEARED AS WITH A HOT IRON.
2ND TIMOTHY 4; 1,2
MusicGuy said...
Just further clarification...
Tax benefits for minister are only for those who are ordained, not just licensed.
10:57 AM, March 28, 2007
MusicGuy,
Actually, licensing does allow one to take the tax benefits afforded ministers as long as the individual meets the other requirements (i.e., administer sacraments, conduct religious worship, management responsibilities in a local church or parent denomination, considered to be a religious leader by the local church or parent denom--this last one could hold some licensees back). See the Church & Clergy Tax Guide by Richard R. Hammar, published by Christian Ministry Resources. It is authored by a lawyer/CPA and updated every year to include the newest tax code info and court cases. It's a great source on ministerial and church tax issues.
VISION CASTING---
THE ROAD OF LEADERSHIP ??? !!!
Check this out ...
AUDIO CD TOUTING VISION CASTING FROM CHANGE AGENT CHURCH GROWTH GURUS
For the sake of accuracy and good will, the one left standing was not at the mike. He was still in the balcony and making his way downstairs. This was reported by the person sittng next to him and confirmed by the person himself.
Had written to Dr. Frank Page in February to see if he could help with things on his end. Received his answer today via email and the answer is that there is nothing he can do.
----------------
Brothers and Sisters in The LORD Jesus here on the Forum,
We have focused, as you have, for so many months on the abominations going on within the walls of Bellevue among "leadership". This past Sunday's events at BBC has ended our focus on this. We simply must look away on our end.
On Monday, flesh feelings (and words) were so strong in my wife as she read what someone was writing to MOM4 and Karen that she wrote things in response that day that were flesh in response. She was distraught with failing to glorify God in what she had felt and written that day when she later told me about the posts. Flesh NEVER honors God. God's honor and glory must be ever-present in all that His children say and do. Temptations to do otherwise are to be avoided.
Our focus turns from Bellevue though we will remember her and will remember each and every one of you in our prayers. We have loved you. We have a ministry through our website that we must focus on along with our other Christian endeavors. God is using our website to reach souls in different parts of the world. He has taken our few loaves and fishes and is feeding souls. We are so humbly grateful for this. We truly desire to honor Him for all that He has done for us by saving our souls from a devil's burning hell. We must be healed from the wounds of BBC in order to do this. Eternal souls are at stake. BBC's "leadership" has distracted my wife and me for far too long now. This simply has to end for us in our home.
Our focus must be on The LORD Jesus and the work that He has given us to do for Him. Our BBC wounds must be healed and reading this forum keeps us personally from being able to heal. It may be helping many but it is keeping our wounds oozing. This is not a criticism towards any of you. It is merely a fact pertaining to ourselves.
There are Brothers and Sisters here on this Forum that are so very sincere in Jesus and well-studied and articulate in the things of God. There are wonderful teachers here. There are those that God uses mightily to edify His children. There are some that have a way of saying things to make us all laugh as a respite from the intensity of the subjects being discussed. There are others who are able to write the sounds of their heart's cry for BBC to share with us and we all cry with them within our own hearts. There is also a wonderful and Godly administrator of this forum. God has a mighty group of spiritual warriors here at this Forum. His favor rests upon each and every one of His children here.
We love you and we will love you throughout eternity when we get to meet each one of you personally. If there is ever anything we can ever pray with you about, please email us at stephenbonita@bellsouth.net or call us.
May God bless each and every one of you with the eternal treasures of Himself.
Sincerely in The LORD Jesus,
Stephen Richie
Living Hope In Jesus
www.livinghopeinjesus.com
---------OFFLINE---------
Aslan,
You've got mail
Evan,
Thanks, I stand corrected. I have never taken advantage of the benefits. To me it's always easier to be considered as an employee and pay taxes normally.
On another note, I have hesitated to say anything before, but I can empathise with many you and your situation at BBC. Within the past year I was serving at a church that had plans to relocate and build new facilities. I was excited about what God would do and happy to be on staff (part time) there. I had been there only a couple of months when the pastor took us all to lunch to announce he had been contact by a local mega church pastor about the possibility of merging with their congregation to become one of their satellite campuses. He said the plans were already ongoing, and that the church would be taking a vote soon on whether to do this. Needless to say I was somewhat distraught over the situation. To make a long story short, I was eventually "let go" after the vote was secured, as the "mother ship" campus preferred to use some of their own to lead worship. In the end, this was not so bad, as I ultimately did not agree with what was happening.
I was out of the ministry for several months until recently God has been preparing my heart to return to full time service. I have been serving in an interim capacity at a nearby church, and we are praying for God to open the right door for us to serve Him full time in the near future.
At any rate, I simply shared my story to help you understand maybe why I am here on the blog. Having been through something similar, and having been on church staff for many years, I feel like I can kind of relate to both groups of people.
Phil4:13,
Yes, that did answer most of my question. I was reviewing the budget figures and could not see the church making the new budget with the present loss of attending membership. Many of us have left physically and financially but have not moved our membership yet. Most are waiting on the Lord's leading, but He has not led us to another home, which to me is a sign that he is not thru with us at BBC just yet, regardless of the Dodd family's opinion. Most not attending are biblically solid christian believers who are faithful in their tithes and offerings and their service. I am not sure of the newcomers. I could guess most will be tithers as well, but if the receipts are down right now, it does not seem to appear to be the case.
Any way you look at it, with the attitude of the leadership being to push away the faithful in favor of a "new gospel", the church may still run just fine without the missing membership, as long as Steve can get the money to make budget out of them.
Unless something changes in the attitude of the leadership, I fully expect a mass exodus in the near future as the Lord allows. The church will be missing not only the almighty dollar, but faithful teachers and lay personnel who have been at BBC for many years. You know them, those that always give sacrifically of their time and money - they are not the rich and famous, but are God's chosen just the same and they are being turned out of God's house.
Piglet said...
"Ima, I thought these pastor's consider getting rid of us part of the "transitioning" and "dealing with resistors". You don't think he will rejoice when we've all gone?"
OH YES...THAT IS WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT!!! Piglet...what did I say to make you think otherwise? I need to correct it whatever it was.
Piglet...PLEASE go buy the book Transitioning by Dan Southerland. That is what you need to read. Watchman has been posting some things from Southerland's website (churchtransitioning.com I think is it). It is very inexpensive and will put you a step ahead of Gaines and his cronies. Excuse me...the leadership. :( It is listed step by step. You will see from whence you have come, where you are presently, and what is to come.
Tell me what I said that mislead you so I can correct it. Maybe this corrected it?
Ima
Piglet...
To make things more clear...Gaines is already rejoicing! How much greater could things be going for him? The decerners are either already gone or are leaving. Aren't newer, younger people coming in now and joining the church? Seekers?
The people who understand and are 'resisting' are just about all gone aren't they? This is their goal.
The people who believe in what Gaines is doing...right now they see him as a martyr. On page 118 of Transitioning by Southerland, it says, "You will be criticized. It might as well be for doing the right thing." ??? Get it? This book is for the pastors taking their church through transition. It is telling them what to do and how to treat us. You must get this book.
Ima
This is what I misunderstood:
"And not only this Piglet, but if Gaines cared about Bellevue...in knowing he is the cause of the split, he would resign and leave. He knows he is the cause. Rick Warren would not be proud of Gaines...he is blowing it. Pastors.com advises a pastor to leave rather than stay when they make a mess of things. "
Her, it seems as though you think Gaines has blown it by running folks off and that Pastors.com says this is a bad thing and he should leave, whereas before, you had stated (and it clearly states on Warren's website and pastors.com) that running people off is part of the "transitioning".
Maybe the definition of "church split" is where I'm missing the boat here (?) :/
Piglet,
One of the first things our new pastor said to us was, "We may lose a few, but that's alright. We'll get some more."
Talk about red flags going up!!! But...the majority still fell for it. I reckon some people would follow their pastor straight to you know where. If the pastor says it, it must be fact. The Bible tells me to test the spirits. No pastor is so great that I won't question him when I see red flags.
Another book I would strongly suggest you read is 'A Time of Departing' by Ray Yungen. Or Running Against the Wind by Brian Flynn. Of course you will not find these in Lifeway of most any Christian book stores. The reason being is that they counter Rick Warren and his lot, better known as the cash cow. I have a letter from Lifeway to prove that. These books need to be read after Transitioning. Please do this.
Ima
"There is also audio of the pathetic excuse for the swift adjournment, with CW standing at the mike, unheard AGAIN."
I pray this young man will find a means to say what he wants to say. He needs to be heard. The idea of this leadership trying to keep him quiet!
Thanks, Ima. I'm always reading and I'll add these to my list!
Watchman,
You are doing such a great job with exposing truth. I just want to make a small correction to your post that might prove to be important for some?
This scripture you quote here:
"Now The SPIRIT speaketh expressly, that in latter times some shall depart from THE FAITH, GIVING HEED TO SEDUCING SPIRITS, AND DOCTRINES OF DEVILS, HAVING THEIR CONSCIENCE SEARED AS WITH A HOT IRON.
2ND TIMOTHY 4; 1,2"
Instead of being 2Timothy 4:1-2, it is 1TIMOTHY 4: 1-2.
Might make a difference?
Thanks...Ima
ima..
duly noted and appreciated
Can I have a second to this motion?
aslan,
it may be that C was still walking to the mic when they began to end the meeting but I did see him go and stand at the mic. He didn't turn around at the stairs.
Here is an interesting
article
about churches and secrecy in finances and salaries.
We must ask the question: Is it Biblical?
You know all these grips and complaints should be placed at feet of the previous administration - for 32 years these by-laws have been in place - for 32 years there have 'just-stamp-it-approved" business meetings.
You couldn't see the pastors salary or any other ministers. For 15 years PW was on staff- for all the discerning 'check-in-my-spirit' people - where were you - did you just join BBC 20 months ago? This ship has been sailing for a long time this way.
aslansown said...
For the sake of accuracy and good will, the one left standing was not at the mike. He was still in the balcony and making his way downstairs. This was reported by the person sittng next to him and confirmed by the person himself.
gmommylv said...
aslan,
it may be that C was still walking to the mic when they began to end the meeting but I did see him go and stand at the mic. He didn't turn around at the stairs.
Both statements cannot be true. Which is correct?
"Dr. Akin is really in tune with the problems in the SBC...he's made several statements of late that are right on the mark. "
Why did I think that was Tom Ascoll? Anyhoo, I have been visting Founders blog off and on for the past year and it is excellent.
BTW: After reading the article I got to thinking...SBTS is graduating some young men well trained in scripture exposition without the GCM methods training. An outcome of this, which cracks me up, is a sort of 'trendy in music' but VERY reformed in doctrine new Baptist church full of 20 somethings here in town. Are we seeing an awakening of sorts? I have more examples but you get the point.
Please sign this petition if you agree that these men should step down from their positions of leadership. May God bless Bellevue once again.
Sign if you think they should go
We can begin to heal if they all go. Don't let a small group of men drive the entire church into a ditch. They need to step aside so trust can be restored.
Sign if you think they should go
Ima,
I have loved all you have shared on P.D because of my own experience. My brother's church in San Antonio split because of P.D too. It even got so weird the pastor would cut off the air conditioning in SS classrooms so members would have to do home groups!
Anyway, I think the pastors that are attracted to the P.D church want the fame and glory of a mega church and their ego's take over and they want it all without a timeline.
Soloman,
It maybe a matter of perspective. The facts are:
1. He was there.
2. He was wanting to speak.
3. The meeting adjourned before he asked to speak.
Where he was seems a little irrelevant at this point.
This is why eyewitness testimony is not considered the best form of evidence in court .
Take a look at #578 at "you know where". Interesting comment. It appears that those on the outside looking in are interested in "that" issue as well. They seem to be getting thier votes in anywhere they can. So much for a positive campaign.
Aslan,
I copied and pasted these entries from "you know where". Don't you find it ironic that other churches where Dr. Gaines has pastored are STILL recovering from the scandals and turmoil that he wrought upon the members when he pastored there? I've said it before - Gaines is on his "honeymoon" with Bellevue; what happens in 3, 5, 10 (it won't be 10 based on his past pastorates) years down the road when he's REALLY comfortable with running BBC. Bring on the labryinth! If you'll fall for his "mistakes of the head" now, what's to prevent you from accepting a labrynth on the property of BBC? I think Ima said it earlier - it's the frog in the pot trick (heat up the pot little by little, let the frog get used to the heat and he'll boil himself). I understand now how the anti-Christ will get folks to tattoo "666" on their arms. All it takes is charisma and chutzpah (I'm not Yiddish so excuse the spelling!)
karen
579 5:21 pm PDT, Mar 27 Angel Wings Stevie-Wonder is JEALOUS of Adrian Rogers and the legacy he left behind. He talked behind his back, and the first week he was here he changed everything. He changed the Sunday bulletin, the songs, and all that was good. He will never ever be loved and respected like Pastor Rogers. He shoots himself in the foot over and over, and the LORD will some day open the eyes of those he has fooled. This is why he is a deeply troubled and disturbed man. I would soooo not want to be him.
578 4:52 pm PDT, Mar 27 Gardendale, Alabama These people are blinded by the charisma of this man. His motives are NOT ordained by God. BEWARE! He and Donna are not what they seem They will be nice to your face and slit your throat when they are thru with you. He will bankrupt your church just like he did us AND Jackson TN. Pay attention Folks - God will not be mocked, but you are being mocked this very minute by Steve and Donna Gaines.
577 4:01 pm PDT, Mar 27 Jackson Tennessee The people signing this petition have been fooled. Steve is no different now than he was at WJBC. He split us, now he is doing it to you. Can't you see what is obvious to the rest of the world?
Readyorknot said
You couldn't see the pastors salary or any other ministers. For 15 years PW was on staff- for all the discerning 'check-in-my-spirit' people - where were you - did you just join BBC 20 months ago? This ship has been sailing for a long time this way
Piglet says:
I've been here 25 years. It was not until Gaines came lacking the integrity of our former pastor that we had the "check" you mentioned.
I think, for us, it was when we saw our leadership condoning and excusing his actions, then sending a check to a liberal church that we thought "Oh my. We can't trust these guys that we have been trusting all these years!"
You're right. They were around before Gaines. We never knew. Perhaps this is one of the reasons God brought Gaines hers? So we could deal with existing problems within our church as well as his? I just hope we stop shirking that responsibility...
mom4 said
"Since he has gone home to glory, why don't you wait until you get there and discuss it with him instead of dishonoring his name with unsubstantiated attacks."
I have never esteemed one man over the other (Gaines or Rogers) I have equal disdain for their theologies.
I have never dishonored his nor his family's name.
Please show me one unsubstantiated attack that I have made toward Rogers or Gaines.
Now on the other hand there are plenty of unsubstantiated attacks against Gaines that are shameful for thoes who profess such strong loyalty to Rogers. I doubt that at the moment he approves of this blog.
aslansown,
The one before it is interesting as well!
Looks like they have "been there, done that"
Amy said,
“Anyway, I think the pastors that are attracted to the P.D church want the fame and glory of a mega church and their ego's take over and they want it all without a timeline.”
Thanks Amy…
On this sentence of yours that I posted above: I agree wholeheartedly. I will even go a step farther and tell you I see a parallel with the mega pastors/mega church and the pope/Vatican roles. I am able to speak freely about this because my mother was a Roman Catholic and this greaves me. I wonder how long it will be before the megamember will be making a confession to the megapastor as the catholic does to the priest. And leaving God in the distance. My point here is that I am seeing a fondness of the pastor from the congregant that I have never before been witness to. It is frightening. The pastor today is of the celebrity status…and that is frightening. I personally think that we all need to take the pastor out of the equation for a while within ourselves and study the Bible so intently that we nearly choke on it. I don’t mean take him out of the pulpit…but I do mean we need to test the spirit. Be alert for any
red flags. In order to do that, we need to be so very well read on the Bible. The church of today as we see it and know it is on borrowed time.
Ima
WH said...
" have never esteemed one man over the other (Gaines or Rogers) I have equal disdain for their theologies."
My point is that you might be able to aproach Gaines to express your disdain, but not Dr Rogers. I am sorry you did not understand my post. It appears to most on here that you are griping aboutDr Rogers as well as the theology that we hold to be true, therefore - WHY ARE YOU HERE? To insult us more than we have already been insulted by our own..?
You appear to be the devil's advocate in your attacks and I do not understand why you are here if not to attack what we believe.
IMA
Please check your mail! :/
Amy, Ima, and Piglet: I think many people are looking at the ministry as a job/business instead of a calling. Because the church has begun to look more and more like a worldly business, the calling isn't the same. Maybe some of these leaders begin with a call then are swayed to the different mindset of "a job." There seems to be a lack of a servant attitude and of personal interest in the flock. Also, church discipline has almost been completely done away with so there is very little accountability left within the church structure anymore. JMO
Karen: Agnus Dei was originally sung by Michael W. Smith and I believe he wrote it as well. Just a bit of trivia!
Concerned said
Karen: Agnus Dei was originally sung by Michael W. Smith and I believe he wrote it as well. Just
a bit of trivia!
Piglet says:
I have that on CD and absolutely LOVE it! Wonderful to worship to!!
sickofyourdiatribes,
The downtown building was sold. It was sold for the price that was being offered and it was the only offer on the table. The cost to maintain the empty buildings downtown would have quickly out run waiting another 6 months or 12 months or 24 months for a better offer. The sell of the property was to the benefit of Bellevue not to spread an apostate gospel.
Back to the drawing board bucko.
Tim: Thanks for your voice of reason.
Piglet: I like it too. I'm old-fashioned like that! I like the old Michael W. Smith/Steven Curtis Chapman/Point of Grace stuff. If it gives me a headache, I'm not interested!! LOL!
Concerned
Sorry, but I also have a headbanger side. I have several Whiteheart CDs that I still listen to (christian rock). My kids borrow my stuff and download it.
And yet...I'm not PD. Amazing.
Ima
You have mail...again.
mom4 said
"You appear to be the devil's advocate in your attacks and I do not understand why you are here if not to attack what we believe."
Will what you believe stand up to attacks? Or or you above being attacked?
You are so busy attacking others that you can't withstand attacks against yourself.
Is there a possibility that I am the Lord's advocate? (that would be a bold assumption)
Watchinghistory
Could you go back and read the purpose for this blog?
We are still grieving the loss of someone we love and you are trashing him.
There are denominations for people who believe your theology and we are not one of those. Please accept that we have differences.
Piglet: It's okay. ;) While I do like a certain worship style in a corporate setting, I'm not one of those "Christian rock is from the devil" kinds of folk!
piglet said
"There are denominations for people who believe your theology and we are not one of those. Please accept that we have differences."
I don't have a denomination only a Bible. Where is a denomination that believe it?
Aslanown
Just to clarify, when the meeting adjourned I saw a man at the microphone and later learned who it was. I'm not sure just when he stepped up but he was there when the meeting adjourned. Not trying to mislead anyone.
Concerned
I'm with you. When I go to church I like a reverant atmosphere in which to worship. I think Jim Whitmire was able to achieve this even with contemporary mixed in.
But I don't mind having fun at a Christian concert, either. But the two are separate to me.
JMO
piglet
"Please accept that we have differences."
So if that is the problem what is the reason for fussing about Bible beliefs or for emergent services or for what Steve Gaines is doing?
Please, piglet, just accept that they have their differences. Is that too hard?
WH,
You have your beliefs and you think you are right. We have beliefs that we trust and follow and thru extensive teaching and Bible study, we believe that our beliefs are right. We are not attacking your beliefs, it is your freedom thru the grace of God to believe what you want to believe. THEREFORE, please stop attacking us, our beliefs and our former pastor who is not here to give you his ear. I am wondering if you ever tried to communicate your agression to him while he was living or are you just now feeling the freedom to use his name with distain since he has gone home?
WHS
To be honest, I have skipped the bulk of your posts because they are beside the point on this blog.
But since you have been a pastor, surely you are aware of denominational theology - or AOG or 25+ would probably know.
I'm just growing weary of your disparaging remarks. In my Bible it says if you want to be saved you can. Beyond that, I'll wait until Heaven and get the details from Someone who knows. :)
WH said
Please, piglet, just accept that they have their differences. Is that too hard?
Watchinghistory
You and I do not have to agree, but members of a church DO have to have some level of agreement on the issues we are discussing here.
It matters because it determines whether I am going or staying, etc.
mom4
"You have your beliefs and you think you are right. We have beliefs that we trust and follow and thru extensive teaching and Bible study, we believe that our beliefs are right. We are not attacking your beliefs..."
Please read your statement again and maybe consider retracting it.
Did Dr Rogers teach you this communication skill? (That is not an attack on AR)
watching,
Brother, I appreciate your theological fervor, and the input you bring to my blog, but this forum has a lot of hurting people right now...many of whom I've met personally, and I can tell you that they love the LORD and are as serious about their faith as anyone...also I'm sure they feel that this is neither the time nor place that they care to engage in protracted theological debate. I'm not criticizing you at all, just pointing up a couple of facts. Grace to you.
AOG
This is not a protracted theological debate, this is spiritual warfare!
A lot of people are hurting all across America and not just a few in Memphis.
I represent the King in this battle. I have met the enemy and he is the spirit of self determination. And he has hurt many people. So I will not be silent, I have a responsibility.
I am finding liberty in Christ as I follow his Words. I am indeed a disciple! I know the truth and I am free!
Piglet,
I guess we will need to stroll on by the postings of WH. I have met his likeness (my way or the highway comes to mind) and he will not be persuaded even if one returned from the dead.
aslansown said...
Where he was seems a little irrelevant at this point.
The question I have is whether or not he was in a visible position before the motion to adjourn was made.
I think the answer to that question is huge.
Mom4
I have been scrolling by for the most part. Just thought a fellow could respect the fact that our pastor is loved and missed.
Back to scrolling on by.
You on the other hand are seeking refuge in Belevue's unity to your personal satisfaction. You attack me because you think my attacks are hindering you from freely attacking others.
You say you are skipping my post because my words have no place in you. You say I seem like the devil's advocate. You say I need to just go back to my kind of people. Then you appeal to a former dead pastor's credibility as though that should silent me.
I imply that you are not following Dr Rogers' teaching. He would not approve of your actions.
Hopefully you can see that I am following the dialog in John 8:31-59. (Dr Rogers is no Abraham)
You will post back to me, "do you think you are Jesus?" No, I am his disciple and thrilled with his gospel.
I serve the King that Dr Rogers stands before even now. Before Dr Rogers was, THE KING IS the great I AM!
Please don't be the hypocrites that Christ was talking to.
imaresistor said: To make things more clear...Gaines is already rejoicing! How much greater could things be going for him? The decerners are either already gone or are leaving. Aren't newer, younger people coming in now and joining the church? Seekers?
The people who understand and are 'resisting' are just about all gone aren't they? This is their goal.
The people who believe in what Gaines is doing...right now they see him as a martyr. On page 118 of Transitioning by Southerland, it says, "You will be criticized. It might as well be for doing the right thing." ??? Get it? This book is for the pastors taking their church through transition. It is telling them what to do and how to treat us. You must get this book.
REPLY: That is one of the most unreal posts ever on this blog. Flat out LIES. You have no clue what you are talking about, so please lying. Brother Steve and his family has been put through MUCH more than most on this blog has been or will ever have to deal with. PERIOD, that is a fact. He is not well physically, not like any of you care.
As a martyr? PLEASE spare us!!!! Do not put words in my mouth or any others. You are wrong and you have no clue how we see Brother Steve.
I am so sick of all the know-it-alls on this blog claiming every day that they know this and know that. Sorry, but you know nothing about what we think. Nothing! You also do not know Brother Steve and that is obvious!
I am in no way painting Brother Steve or any of us as victims or the only victims. I am saying that your post could not be more wrong.
readyorknot said: You know all these grips and complaints should be placed at feet of the previous administration - for 32 years these by-laws have been in place - for 32 years there have 'just-stamp-it-approved" business meetings.
You couldn't see the pastors salary or any other ministers. For 15 years PW was on staff- for all the discerning 'check-in-my-spirit' people - where were you - did you just join BBC 20 months ago? This ship has been sailing for a long time this way.
REPLY: GREAT post! Th facts are that Dr. Rogers would not have put up with this blog and the members of Bellevue causing trouble for 2 seconds.
4545.
STILL waiting for you to prove your flat out lies.
Jury duty's over!! Wooohoooooo! Back to work tomorrow...
watchinghisstory: You are 100% right that Dr. Rogers would be totally against this blog and everything it stands for. Many on here and off, that "claim" to love and miss Dr. Rogers dis-honor his name everyday. He would have never supported their actions no matter what the circumstances were. They try to justify their attacks, hate, rumors, etc etc etc everyday and there is NO justification. More important than Dr. Rogers is Christ. They "claim" they are doing God's work, but are taking part in things that directly against Christ and God's Word.
They love to try and justify, but there is no justification.
4545, STILL waiting, 4 days now. Boy, aren't I a patient man. Come up with your 'evidence' or go home. Quit running around this blog acting like you're trying to set us miserable misinformed sinners straight. You demand from others that which you cannot produce. Does the word 'Pharisee' mean anything to you?
Congrats, Junk! It's an education, isn't it?
If some of you only knew how imperfect Bellevue was, Dr. Rogers was, past leadership was, etc etc behind the scenes.
4545 said,
If some of you only knew how imperfect Bellevue was, Dr. Rogers was, past leadership was, etc etc behind the scenes.
Reply: Gossip monger. Deal with 'now'. And you got work to do. Because I'm STILL waiting...
Thanks, Concerned. Yes, it was definitely a learning experience. But, like the Calvinist lady said after she fell down the stairs, "I'm glad THAT'S over!" :)
ws, Matthew 10:14.
Just a thought.
" Brother Steve and his family has been put through MUCH more than most on this blog has been or will ever have to deal with. "
A six figure income ought to soothe some of the self bought misery.
"Th facts are that Dr. Rogers would not have put up with this blog and the members of Bellevue causing trouble for 2 seconds. "
That is an interesting thought. Wonder just how he would have responded to those who disagree with him. hmmm....
You think he would have hired Coombs to deal with them?
Piglet,
Rock on! White Heart, White Cross, Bride,(the early stuff), Bloodgood, Magdelene, Jacob's Trouble,Petra, Yeah, Rock on!
piglet & oc,
Don't forget DeGarmo & Key!!
Brother Steve and his family has been put through MUCH more than most on this blog has been or will ever have to deal with. PERIOD, that is a fact.
Mighty bold statement seeing you don't know anyone here or what they've been through..for all you know what "Steve and his family" have been through could be a cakewalk compared to what someone on this blog may have been through. And you claim that as fact?...who's speculating now? Unless you know every last person on this blog AND everything they've been through you ought to retract that statement.
Junk,
Yo!How can I forget D&G? Thanks for the memories!
OOPs! D&K.
Daniel Amos
4545,
In the STILL, of the night, I STILL wait for replies, in the STILL of the night....
4545,
Doo wop Doo wop.
allofgrace: read again! I put most, not all.
for what OC? what do you need?
Okay, I'll retreat back to my CD player with my slow stuff......
AOG: Thanks for your point at 9:08. How true. Much of his pain has been brought on by his poor decisions and choices.
4545,
You cannot be that ignorant. This must be willful.You know EXACTLY what I want. That's why you've been running for 4 days. Try to save face now by acting ignorant. Not playin' your game. You gonna pony up or what? If not, just say so. Quit playing games with me. Tired of asking you to have integrity.
oc, I e-mailed you.
Piglet said...
Concerned
Sorry, but I also have a headbanger side. I have several Whiteheart CDs that I still listen to (christian rock). My kids borrow my stuff and download it.
And yet...I'm not PD. Amazing.
Koragg Responds:
I don't even listen to christian rock....I listen to Rock 103 mostly besides classic rock on XM. And I'm not PD either :). Just a little nuts :).
doc bellevue said:
Do you think it was right for the pastor's sister-in-law to turn around and tell some of my friends they needed to find another church because they had no ministry at BBC? Do you think it was right that she and her daughter voted on every single vote even though, according to a friend, they are members of a Presbyterian church.
sotl asks:
WHAT???? are you telling us that Donna's sister, sitting right beside her, was standing and voting???? Where is the integrity of DONNA GAINES???? She KNEW this was wrong!!! ANYTHING goes with these people!!!
I guess this is the way they act in ALABAMA ( no offense toward the GOOD folks of ALABAMA) but this is UNACCEPTABLE!!!
Oh, wait, this is the NEW AND IMPROVED BBC!!!
Concerned
Two of my favorite secular artists are Josh Groban and Celine Dion.
Is that slow enough? :)
Lin,
The rest of Matthew 10 is pretty cool too !!
I miss Amos....the scary people ran him off! He was so calm and cracked me up when he broke his silence.
WH,
Can you and 4545 just email each other and vent that way. Are you the ONLY ONE representing the king??? in the world????
4545 and the angry JMO sound alike. Same screechy pitch. Just one screaming for SG and the other for DC. OUCH!!!!!!
We ALL need to learn to fear God more than man.
There will be a major announcement on Sunday. You will not want to miss it. I wish I could provide more information but will not be allowed until Sunday. To say that it is surprising would be an understatement. Please don't ask me for more information at this time for I will not reply. Please don't speculate but I'm sure many of you will have probably anticipated what it is. This will happen Sunday without a doubt. I know that there are a number of people aware but most will not be revealing. I ask if you are one who knows to please keep it to yourself.
We ALL need to learn to fear God more than man.<
A hearty AMEN. (offline)
Piglet: Ahhhh Josh Groban. :)
sorry!!
Truth Rules,
Just curious, but how did you learn of a major announcement thats going to be made Sunday?
Truth Rules
Trying to start a rumor?
That's already been done several times by trolls....
"To say that it is surprising would be an understatement. Please don't ask me for more information at this time for I will not reply."
Then what could possibly be your point in posting this? People would find out Sunday even if they do not go to BBC. You just wanted people to think you are in the 'know'. Ok, I acknowledge you..."person in the know"... with your leader friends who ignore scripture. (It can be a dangerous place...person in the know...)
{yawn}..unless it is Gaines 'finally and quite belatedly' resigning, how big could it be? Oh! I know... he is announcing the taking of the lunch box out of the shrine!
(really offline now...)
koragg,
They've probably finished reviewing the videotapes from Sunday and are going to kick all the "dissenters" out of the church. Or "truth ruse" is just trying to start a rumor. Either way {yawn...}, I wouldn't worry about it.
I ask again OC, wht do you want? I am not going to go back read to try and find it. What is it?
Major announcement?
Ooooo Ooooo!
I know, I know!
Construction is starting on the new high tech labrynth / laser light show!
Cooooool!
Don't you know that, major announcement or none, this is a contrivance to pull you into a net of speculation, so they can then turn Deacon Fred and rebuke you for gossip and slander down on the flip-flop?
Don't play poker with these people.
Cakes: Good point. Thanks for the reminder! :)
truth rules said...
There will be a major announcement on Sunday. You will not want to miss it. I wish I could provide more information but will not be allowed until Sunday. To say that it is surprising would be an understatement. Please don't ask me for more information at this time for I will not reply. Please don't speculate but I'm sure many of you will have probably anticipated what it is. This will happen Sunday without a doubt. I know that there are a number of people aware but most will not be revealing. I ask if you are one who knows to please keep it to yourself.
9:45 PM, March 28, 2007
Probably all of us with our MUGS (PICS) on camera from last Sunday will be asked to leave.....So what else is new???????
Piglet,
I never saw him and had to depend on the testimony of others. That is why I focused on the only facts that I was sure of. I have no reason to doubt you or your cincerity.
Furthermore, I stand corrected regarding the question of ordination and licensing. I was .................wrong. Hey that wasn't too hard!
Truth Ruse,
That was tacky.
Thanks Sweet Cake...
for the reminder. Just had to get the 2 cents worth in there.
piglet, don't know about trolls but I've usually been one that doesn't speak on something second hand (and this is first). And no I am not trying to act like a person in the know. I can assure that this is not a rumor. It is as much a fact as the sun coming up in morning.
Koragg, I was able to see it in the final printed form and I realized the significance of the moment and what the impact would be. There will be some very angry people but there will be some who will be smiling.
Trustster says:
There will be some very angry people but there will be some who will be smiling.
SOTL asks:
And those of us on this blog, which reaction will WE have?
NASS, I ask that you track anything I've written since today and following. After Sunday you can compare my statements. If you find anything that is not truthful then you can blast away.
SOTL, maybe now I will get a lunch invite and a swimming invite with the gang. Ok, I will wait until Monday for the invites....which I'm sure will come. Nite Friend.
Licensing for ministry is a completely man-made tradition anyway, and so is much of what we practice and associate with ordination practices. Mostly a carry over of Catholic influences, reflecting an over emphasis on clergy/laity distinctions. Not that the common licensing and ordination practices are unbiblical, in the sense of being contrary to scripture, but they are extra-biblical, like much of what we do in modern churches. I don't believe that it is morally wrong to come up with practices and traditions not explicitly spelled out in the Bible, but those traditions don't carry the weight of scriptural commands.
truth rules said...
piglet, don't know about trolls but I've usually been one that doesn't speak on something second hand (and this is first). And no I am not trying to act like a person in the know. I can assure that this is not a rumor. It is as much a fact as the sun coming up in morning.
Koragg, I was able to see it in the final printed form and I realized the significance of the moment and what the impact would be. There will be some very angry people but there will be some who will be smiling.
Koragg Responds:
TR, final printed form? Is that for the bulletins or something else? Just curious.
I am saying this for the second time.
If you did not go to the link that Watchman posted yesterday, March 27 at 3:48 PM, you may have missed one of the most vital sermons you will ever hear. I printed it out and read it. And I cried over Andrew Myman. Shame on us!
Jesus is Lord!
Dee
TR,
I'll take you to lunch ... I don't think SOTL, piglet, and Dee would really want me around, anyway...I'm just an old fat dude. Kinda smelly, even. But I can't help with the smimming party, unless SOTL had another dream....
The only reason people will be "very angry" or "very smiley" would be if someone were leaving and the "very angries will blame the very smilies" regardless of whatever or whoever TR is talking about.
I will say that if someone is resigning a cushy high dollar job, it will be for a reason and we will probably never know the truth of that reason, but it won't be us.
truth ruse wrote:
"NASS, I ask that you track anything I've written since today and following. After Sunday you can compare my statements. If you find anything that is not truthful then you can blast away."
I didn't say I didn't believe you. I just said I don't care. You haven't said what you're talking about, so there's really nothing to discuss about it. We can do without the "teasers," thank you.
koragg, I can't answer that question because it could reveal too much. It may be shown on an insert or handout but I'm not certain exactly where the final placement will be. But it definitely will be seen in a written form via handout. And no it's not pictures of the dissenters or the loyalist. I am still trying to research and find how this originated....meaning who first prompted this or was it just an individual decision where someone felt this was the time to do it. But it obviously had a number of people agreeing with it being the thing to do. I guess the emotional toll will depend on which side you are on in the action.
truthster,
And you know this HOW?
Oh, for heavens sakes, truth, just spill it!
I know something you don't know and i'm not gonna telllll you.
nanny nanny boo boo
I KNOW!!!
They are going to have a list of the " troublemakers" in the bulletin and ask them to leave the church.
SOTL,
:)
4545.
Alright. I am really getting sick of you acting like you don't know what's going on. You shoot your mouth off that the blog is a big lie, that the people, (God's people, by the way,) are lying about all the incidents discussed on this blog. Then I confront you, you run. Time after time. Everybody sees you run. You don't have enough sense to stay away. Now you act ignorant; well, I hope its acting.
Listen, you obviously can't back up what you say. So put your tail between your legs, and go find another hydrant.
OC,
ROFL!!!
OC: How funny. You waste post after post and all you had to do is tell me what exactly you are wanting. Do you even remember yourself? Specific or general? All you have to do is ask. Wow, and you claim I am playing games?
I'm kinda thinking some church somewhere will pick up on my idea for a labyrinth with a laser light show. If you read of a church one day in the future that has one, just remember where you heard the idea first!
'course if you don't sign, you are voted out. Then to be able to come back into the membership, you have to attend the new members classes...and you have to sign the covenant cards in support of the pastor to become a member (again).
'course I could be wrong. Could be something else. Or it could just be 4545's way of antagonizing the dissenters. Who knows. And at this point, does it even matter anymore. Point is, all this has taken away the pleasure of worship at Bellevue and caused total havoc among the fellowship of believers. Have you seen that painting of Jesus' face alongside plantet Earth with the tear running down his face?
4545,
Non answer. Man up.
45,
YOu know good and well what OC was asking for. He has been challenging you for days to come up with your proof about all the " lies and slander and gossip" that you CLAIM is posted on here.
To date, you have not come up with ONE factual thing...
So, like OC said...find another hydrant.
imaresistor: Excuse me? I have nothing to do with the info posted that you posted about
Info please? What specifically are you asking for? Am I suppose to be mind reader? At the point you first ask, I think it was specific about something.
4545 said...
"imaresistor: Excuse me? I have nothing to do with the info posted that you posted about"
I am so sorry...you are right. Sorry for any inconvenience. I intended this for truth rules. Imagine me getting the two of you mixed up!
I will repost. Thank you.
"was it just an individual decision where someone felt this was the time to do it"
Hmmm...let me guess. It is time to show your support for the pastor by signing covenants...
It's about time for that...
'course if you don't sign, you are voted out. Then to be able to come back into the membership, you have to attend the new members classes...and you have to sign the covenant cards in support of the pastor to become a member (again).
'course I could be wrong. Could be something else. Or it could just be truth rules' way of antagonizing the dissenters. Who knows. And at this point, does it even matter anymore. Point is, all this has taken away the pleasure of worship at Bellevue and caused total havoc among the fellowship of believers. Have you seen that painting of Jesus' face alongside plantet Earth with the tear running down his face?
4545,
Go back to your post of 11:04 PM, March 24, 2007 and the subsequent posts from oc, especially his post at 1:52 AM, March 25, 2007.
Basically you said that people here on the blog tell lies all the time, and he has since been asking you to provide factual evidence of this.
Junk,
Thanks, friend. But everyone who sees this blog knows 4545 is 'punking' out. But he/she doesn't have enough sense to cut the ignorant losses and move on. Instead, he/she insists on pleading ignorance. Which, in fact, is very believable.
Believe that.
#603!!!
oc,
I was just making sure there could be no excuse, but SOTL beat me to it.
Junk,
Thanks for the backup, bro. But I think 45 buried himself. Notice, he/she has disappeared again. Houdini! Or Sissini!
ok, folks, i'm gonna call it a day.
Sleep well. I'll report on any dreams tomorrow!!! :)
Night SOTL,
YOU ROCK!
SOTL,
We will expect a full dream report tomorrow. No dream denials allowed.
oc,
You and SOTL make quite the comedy duo. :)
I noticed your profile says you are a counselor. Is that as in some sort of psychology, or something else. No offense, but your straightforward manner on the blog would lead me to think your counselling approach would be to tell folks "Sounds like you've got a personal problem." :)
And by the way, 4545. Man up.
What is behind the flattering terminology of the new paradigm churches that are pushing terms such as " leadershp" , Vision, Gods' Vision, community, etc..
You will not want to miss this expose'
The Inside Story that PDC churches do not want Beleivers to know
Goodnight, Sissies. Sweet dreams.
Your friend and mine,
OC.
Junk,
Email me. I'll tell you of my 'Training'. You may find it humorous. Or not. :)
OC.
I was part of a church that the Pastor Search committee turned on the new pastor in about a year - a big struggle ensued - and the trouble-making, power-hungry, dissension-spreading members left. The total number that left for the year was 666.
The same type of lies where spread - thru it a minister was having an affair with his secretary and that somehow what the new pastor's fault.
The pastor is still there - after 20+ years.
If you can't worship where you are, go where you can.
Jesus said that HE would build HIS church - He doesn't ask or need us policing the 'unapproved' activities that we don't like.
Isaiah 28:9-13 (King James Version)
9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
mom4 said
"We have beliefs that we trust and follow and thru extensive teaching and Bible study, we believe that our beliefs are right."
So are you a disciple of a man or thru the Holy Spirit, a disciple of Christ?
Haggai 2:11-14 (King James Version)
11Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Ask now the priests concerning the law, saying,
12If one bear holy flesh in the skirt of his garment, and with his skirt do touch bread, or pottage, or wine, or oil, or any meat, shall it be holy? And the priests answered and said, No.
13Then said Haggai, If one that is unclean by a dead body touch any of these, shall it be unclean? And the priests answered and said, It shall be unclean.
14Then answered Haggai, and said, So is this people, and so is this nation before me, saith the LORD; and so is every work of their hands; and that which they offer there is unclean.
Pyramid scheme
The unsustainable geometric progression of a classic pyramid schemeA pyramid scheme (also known as "Pyramid Scam" [1]) is a non-sustainable business model that involves the exchange of money primarily for enrolling other people into the scheme, usually without any product or service being delivered. Pyramid schemes have existed for at least a century. Matrix schemes use the same fraudulent non-sustainable system as a pyramid; here, the victims pay to join a waiting list for a desirable product which only a fraction of them can ever receive.
There are other commercial models using cross-selling such as multi-level marketing (MLM) or party planning which are legal and sustainable, although there is a significant grey area in many cases. Most pyramid schemes take advantage of confusion between genuine businesses and complicated but convincing moneymaking scams. The essential idea behind each scam is that the individual makes only one payment, but is promised to somehow receive exponential benefits from other people as a reward. A common example might be an offer that, for a fee, allows the victim to sell the same offer to other people. Each sale includes a fee to the original seller.
Clearly, the fundamental flaw is that there is no end benefit; the money simply travels up the chain, and only the originator (or at best a very few) wins in swindling his followers. Of course, the people in the worst situation are the ones at the bottom of the pyramid: those who subscribed to the plan, but were not able to recruit any followers themselves. To embellish the act, most such scams will have fake referrals, testimonials, and information.
God's holiness will not be processed through such a scheme however the lies of the devil follow such a scheme and can grow so rapidly. This explains the growth of most mega-churches, false doctrines and growing successful christian fads today.
One man stands to gain . . .but not Christ.
With Christian Churches now openly embracing eastern meditative practices, labyrinths, and vision casting...
It is time to look deeply into the roots and essense of such practices as " creative visualization, and "guided imagery".
Former New Age mystic and now converted Christian Brian Flynn
explains these concepts here.
NEW AGE OCCULTISM NOW IN THE CHURCHES
Germantown Baptist Church is having a Passion Play. The dates are Friday, March 30 at 7 pm; Saturday, March 31 at 7 pm; and Sunday, April 1 at 5:30 pm. Everyone is welcome. No tickets are required. It is along the lines of the Passion Play presented in Uraguay. Luke Whitmire is in the role of Jesus. You will recognize some other familiar faces. It is coming together nicely. Even if you are unable to attend, please be in prayer for Dr. Whitmire, all who are involved, and all who will attend. Pass the information along to your friends.
In Christ
If you have heard the new age mantra...that the " methods" may change, but the message is the same, you will dearly love this compelling parable pointing Christians back to the OLD AND TRUE STANDARDS....
Dont miss this one and its' up-to-date relevancy to the State of The Church in America and its' dependance on methods, rather than the Standard of GODS timeless Standards of TRUTH.
GET BACK TO GODS TRUTH,DUMP THE NEW METHODS, OR FAIL
An open Biblical rebuke to all in positions of spiritual leadership that endorse all things Purpose Driven.
NOT ALL PASTORS OR DEACONS ARE DUPED ABOUT PURPOSE DRIVEN LIES
The printed material on Sunday that will make some happy and some sad...would this be a ballot of confidence for anyone? That is a parliamentary procedure for affirming confidence and would fall in line with the past week's protocol. Did the public show of support encourage the stepping out of those in power? If so, please do not confuse the power of democracy, a.k.a. a private vote, with intimidation of standing in a crowd out of fear of reprisal.
3rdside,
How many times in Bellevue's history has there been a 'vote of confidence' taken on it's pastor or leadership by the congregation?
#609 you-know-where. LOL!
The " ballot" on the pastor seems right on cue!! Think about it, after last week, they KNOW that they have run off the remnants of the ones that were even left to vote against him.
The only ones that will be left are those who are following blindly and don't care about any of the issues.
That would be like taking the vote for president at the Democratic convention.
Let me fix that last statement:
That would be like taking a vote at the Democratic Convention and then stating: The American people have spoken!
Watchman mentions Bryan Flynn, "Former New Age mystic and now converted Christian Brian Flynn" in one of his posts which I would certainly encourage you to read. However, at the mention of this man I must tell you that his book, Running Against the Wind, is a remarkable book and I would strongly suggest you read it to aid in your understanding of what is happening in and to our churches today.
In addition to that, I am happy to tell you that you can hear Bryan Flynn online here being interviewed by none other than Bob DeWaay. The subject is the book Running Against the Wind, and he is telling you the same thing he wrote about. The interview by Bob DeWaay is an ongoing series of interviews. You can download it if you like. The interviews are aired each Monday and they have just finished with the third interview. I hope you will listen to these interviews and read the book. It will be well worth your time.
Ima
3rd side, Sotl,
Go back & read carefully every word that came forth from TR.
We must be in a spirit of prayer for BBC. God is at work.
Lucy
No 5 cent charges. This is too serious to be kidding around.
“Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.” – Luke 6:22-23
By Paul Proctor
August 29, 2004
NewsWithViews.com
One hundred and sixty five members of Gardendale Baptist Church recently found themselves without a church home after their pastor decided it was either going to be him or them. The Caller-Times of Corpus Christi reported the following in a July 20th article: …
Please read the rest of what Paul Proctor has to say in this article here
What happened at Gardendale Baptist in Corpus Christi and what appears may be happening at Bellevue is not a
coincidence…it is indicative of the church growth movement strategy AKA Purpose Driven.
Ima
Lucy,
I DID read every word.
What are you saying?
Lucy,
"God is at work."
Yes...
You understand, don't you.
Readyorknot said
The same type of lies where spread - thru it a minister was having an affair with his secretary and that somehow what the new pastor's fault.
Piglet says:
I think you are missing the point here.
The biggest problems we have with Gaines are things he has ADMITTED to - not lies! He has proven his arrogance on video and on audio tape. He has admitted to trespassing. His leadership team has admitted that he cut the check to FUMC without praying over it and that it was WRONG. He has admitted to KNOWINGLY leaving a pedophile on staff as a minister. (And yes, if someone on staff is having an affair and the pastor knows it and keeps them in their postion - the pastor is at fault). He has admitted to breaking tax law. He has refused to open financial records to our members as the LAW REQUIRES.
None of these are lies. You are in denial if you think that a group of angry people have cooked up some stories to ruin a "man of God".
There are other things that he has done and NOT admitted to. You can assume these are all lies and you're still left with the above.
At the very least, he is not very bright.
Please think about who you are defending.
Readyorknot said
Jesus said that HE would build HIS church - He doesn't ask or need us policing the 'unapproved' activities that we don't like.
Piglet says:
In this case the "unapproved activities we do not like" are sin.
Are you suggesting we ignore sin?
How does Jesus build His church?
How would He deal with sin? And are WE not sinning if we let sin go and do not call it what it is?
Should PW still be on staff?
Ima,
I do understand.
Sotl,
Did you read what was specifically written to you? Again? Evidentally, by Monday you will be giving out invitations to TR to come to your parties.
This is all I will say. TR has said enough to know. Read all of his words from the announcement forward, even to other parties.
Lucy
Piglet,
Let me add to your post if I may. The things Steve Gaines has admitted to have happened in the span of less than 2 years! How many "mistakes of the head" does it take for you to get it: Steve Gaines is inept as a LEADER; he is a very good speaker and truly a cheerleader, but does that mean we let him run BBC in the ground while he's preaching the Gospel? What "mistake" will it take for you (and by "you" I mean those in denial of wrongdoing by Steve Gaines) to change your mind on the leadership skills? I pray it's not a doozy that will shake your faith or give you nightmares.
karen
Lucy,
I know you're addressing SOTL, but I feel really dumb. What are you saying about TR's posts?
karen
"He has admitted to breaking tax law."
What is this referring to and when did the "admission" take place?
Thanks.
Karen,
The information semed to be for us rather than about us. TR seemed to think that many here would be pleased.
I put little stock in it.
aslansown,
Ok, I will have to just go with that. I have medicine head today so I am kind of slow.
karen
"diatribes"
Examples of Steve Gaines breaking tax law. His repayment of the charges is the "admission".
- Ted Minor and another deacon report direct billing charges made to the church’s account for Steve Gaines’ daughter’s birthday party at Colonial Country Club. This was discovered as deacons examined church credit receipts. The charge was repaid.
- It is discovered that Steve Gaines made a charge to the church in the amount of $507.88 for his wife and a friend at the Hilton Inn. Although this charge was also repaid, the activity is considered commingling of funds and is illegal for a non-profit organization.
karen
ANy comment from anyone that Donna Gaines sister voted on Sunday? She is NOT a member. Stood right next to Donna and acted like she had every right to vote.
How's THAT for integrity?
SOTL,
Whatever it takes to bolster the numbers!
karen
SOYD
Your question was civil so I will answer it. I don't mind questions at all.
During the credit card "investigation" it was found that Gaines had charged two large expenses to a Bellevue ACCOUNT but not a card (these involved a country club party and a hotel stay for Donna).
Much was made about the fact that these charges to the Bellevue account were reimbursed to the church. Seems logical, except that it is called comingling of funds according to the IRS because BBC gets tax-free status so by using the BBC account Gaines would pay no taxes for personal expenses. Then, at the end of the year he could, conceivably, claim his reimbursement to BBC a tax deductible donation.
This is against tax law because it encourages fraud. It's widely known in the business world and a pastor of 20 years should be well aware.
SOTL,
Donna's sister (or Donna herself) should have led the non-member pack out of the sanctuary when the business meeting started. Was there an announcement about visitors and non-members being asked to excuse themselves since only members are supposed to vote on church business?
karen
Karen
Bryan Miller specifically stated that only MEMBERS should vote.
(offline til later)
Karen,
We should do a lot of praying.
TR is saying that he will be a friend come Monday. He is telling the truth.
I don't know what happened to him/her, but some kind of change of heart since last week.
Off to counsel the world.
Lucy
I'll set up your account. You owe me 5 cents please.
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