Friday, February 09, 2007

The Patient is in Critical Condition!


Please read the following direct quotes from the Investigative Team:

"One witness would not agree to be interviewed except in a group setting. Ultimately, the Team felt that asking the questions it wished to ask could not be done properly and confidentially in such a group setting, and therefore, the Team decided not to interview this individual. Although the individual was a significant witness, the Team felt that the information this witness might have offered basically was corroborative of what other witnesses had stated. The absence of this interview was not a problem for the investigation."


"The first to come forward with any concerns about Paul Williams being allowed to work on the staff at Bellevue Baptist Church was Paul's son and two of his son's friends who came to Pastor Gaines on December 7, 2006."

"Although there is no excuse, there is an explanation which leads to the recommendation noted above. The Pastor stated that he had never dealt with an incident of this type before. Further, there were no policies and procedures in place that he had been trained to follow. In the past, the circle of information on any problems of a sensitive nature in the church was kept very tight to protect the families of the individuals and to protect the church from embarrassment. There has been a feeling that policy and procedures of this type were more suitable for the world than for the church. This feeling is not only found in Bellevue Baptist Church, but also is prevalent across churches in general. The events relating to the Paul Williams issue have vividly brought to light the need for change."


ICU REPORT:

1. The unidentified "significant witness" mentioned was the most significant witness.

2. While the "group setting" mentioned would not have included legal counsel, it would have included all parties with firsthand information. This was to provide the church with information they needed before starting the "official" internal investigation. It would also have provided the opportunity to request that Steve Gaines make it clear in any subsequent public statement that the previous administration had no knowledge of the situation and to try to lessen the negative effect the announcement would have on the Williams family. This request was denied.

3. The unidentified "significant witness" would have offered information that was NOT corroborative of what other witnesses stated and would have changed the context of the committee's report. Significant information was provided in a meeting on January 11, 2007 which was not included in the report.

4. The December 7, 2006 date refers to the date of an actual meeting in which this issue was finally discussed, but the implication in the December 17th announcement to the congregation was that Steve Gaines was unaware until just a couple of weeks before that there were any "unresolved" issues remaining. In reality, this had been brought to Steve Gaines' attention several weeks prior to this meeting, as requests for a meeting had been made (and apparently denied) for some time prior to December 7th.

5. The "policies and procedures" as mandated by Scripture are sufficient to provide guidance to even the most inexperienced layman and should certainly have been sufficient for a Pastor with a Doctorate in Theology.

6. The "circle of information on any problems of a sensitive nature in the church" is apparently tighter now than it has ever been.

7. The idea that this tight circle was designed "to protect the families of the individuals and to protect the church from embarrassment" could not be a more inaccurate statement of fact. The clear intent has been to protect the administration and leadership.

8. The events that have "vividly brought to light the need for change" have to date produced absolutely no change and in fact continually magnify the resistance to any change relating to transparency.


--ICU Nurse

Thanks to "ICU Nurse" for these comments which inspired this topic idea. Some editing by NBBCOF.


Both reports are available here.

525 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   401 – 525 of 525
Piglet said...

JMO

The bottom line is this was not failure in our actions but in our inactions. Once again it shows that God’s way is the only way. But how many of us find this out after our attempt to do it our way. I certainly have more than once.

Piglet says:

God's way was never attempted by SG - as with the issues raised by Mark Sharpe. Those issues continue to be squashed and ignored.

Had this not been "blogged",we would still have PW on staff.

Jford said...

The defenders of the current Bellevue oligarchy here, etc: Stonethrower, Observer, MB, Just My Opinion, Bepatient...


Why does it seem that only one side is always represented when someone feels the need to remind people to play nice? Why is it important to list names of people when an email would be much more personal and sincere?

socwork said...

memphis,

25+ directed his comments to both sides... he even used ALL CAPS so we wouldn't miss it.

to everyone,
The letter by Chuck Hannaford does not seem to list mere oversights by the investigative team, but purposeful manipulation (and limitation) of relevant testimony. Deliberate. Does anyone else see this but me?

New BBC Open Forum said...

mike bratton wrote:

"And I send you e-mail--do you receive it?"

No, actually I haven't. Did you send it to the address in my profile? It's possible I wouldn't reply anyway, but I've not received any e-mails from you recently.

Think what you want. However, I have no desire to get into a discussion with you, privately or otherwise. What's the point? You seem to think you're so much more intellectually astute than the rest of us. I am neither worthy nor (apparently in your eyes) capable of intelligent debate with someone as perspicacious as yourself.

NASS (hanging head in shame)

Piglet said...

Memphis

25+ alluded to BOTH SIDES and I took it to heart. :)

2006huldah said...

Does anyone here know Chuck Hannaford? I think I recognize his name, but I do not know him. I suppose he is a Bellevue member and maybe is a deacon?

Dee

sickofthelies said...

I was just sitting here wondering what Billie Tapp would say about Chuck's letter. Didn't she repremand us in private emails that we were waaaaay off in saying what we were saying about PW prior to the report? Has anyone heard from her since the report was issued? Just curious :)

sickofthelies said...

Huldah,

Dr. Chuck Hannaford is a psychologist in private practice. He has taught CARE classes on wed. nights before, such as " raising a teenager"...and was very good.

He IS a bbc member, but i do not know if he is a deacon.

Piglet said...

socwork said

to everyone,
The letter by Chuck Hannaford does not seem to list mere oversights by the investigative team, but purposeful manipulation (and limitation) of relevant testimony. Deliberate. Does anyone else see this but me?

Piglet says:

I understood the same thing that you did. The comments from David Brown and the thread topic had already brought me to this conclusion. I'm happy that we have concrete testimony to go with it.

I hope the church body doesn't just "let this go" as usual. It just confirms our suspicions that this leadership will manipulate information (lie) to promote their own ends.

socwork said...

Aw, NASS. I have some great homemade chocolate chip cookies here. Want one?

2006huldah said...

SOTL,

Thank you so much. Now, I know where I heard his name before. It was when I was looking over the DiscipleLife folder of classes we could sign up for. I was looking on the SavingBellevue website under the deacons' email address list, and his name was not on there. However, that list has been up there since before the new year started and could be inaccurate.

Thank you, again,
Dee

New BBC Open Forum said...

mike bratton wrote:

"Our," of course, meaning "everyone who wants to attack those in Bellevue leadership with whom they disagree just as long as they can either do so anonymously or when a poster's glamorous identity is an 'open secret.'"

Congratulations, Mike. You're the first to break the new rule that was implemented today at 10:02 a.m. (Oh, why am I not surprised.) Your 2:50 p.m. post just went bye bye.

You really should do something about this burning obsession you have with people's "true" identities. I've said before, I could sign any name I please to whatever I write, and you wouldn't know the difference.

NBBCOF

SallySherlock said...

Chuck used to work with our staff and he has also taught in one of the seminaries. Rumor has it Chuck is one of those BBC members who now worships at GBC.

2006huldah said...

Everyone...

Just wanted to add that if you missed Love Worth Finding this morning, you missed an extremely pertinent study in Jude. The whole week has been so much about apostasy in the church and how to recognize such. Today's message was titled "Recognizing Snakes in the Garden". I am going to listen to it again. (lwf.org)

Dee

Jessica said...

25+
Stonethrower, Observer, MB, Just My Opinion, Bepatient...



May I ask why you chose to pick and choose these names, if you are calling all of us to behave?

2006huldah said...

i love my church...

Thank you, too, for the information. I need all the help I can get.

Dee

New BBC Open Forum said...

socwork wrote:

"Aw, NASS. I have some great homemade chocolate chip cookies here. Want one?"

That's sweet of you, socwork, and I truly appreciate it. Unfortunately, the events of the past three months have spoiled even the thought of that food item for me for a long time to come -- perhaps for life. I like tacos though. ¡Yo quiero Taco Bell!

NASS :-)

New BBC Open Forum said...

be patient,

I have to agree with you. From what I've seen, you and "memphis" have presented your viewpoints without being obnoxious to people. I wouldn't lump you in with those others either.

NBBCOF

socwork said...

Ah, you are right, NASS. I had forgotten about that, believe it or not. Tacos are good though!

Jessica said...

Thank you NASS.

We try. :)

New BBC Open Forum said...

ilmc wrote:

"Rumor has it Chuck is one of those BBC members who now worships at GBC."

And he's a member of GBC now, too, so it's not a rumor. (Just wanted to clear that up before the inevitable accusation of the spreading of such is lobbed your way.)

Barnabas said...

NBBCOF,

Please stop lumping me in with these other guys. I'm on your side of things.

David Hall said...

aHello, sorry to be thorn in your side of late, truth seekers; thank you for your kindnesses in my defense in the face of all the bellowing from the God Squad while away (horrors, Bratton) educating little ones. I don’t want to complicate things for you, so I don’t comment much, until I’ve had enough of the sanctimonious Gaines people. Look, the Brattons, JMOs, and Observers are not here for debate--in the sense of conversation that attempts to penetrate pressing unknowns and seeks resolution to everyone’s mutual well-being—but rather to monologue about what terrible people you are; and while (ironically) coddling Gaines incuriosity regarding a pedophile in his midst for 7 months. Bark-bark!

Otherwise:

“Isnt Trollcates a budhist?”

It’s spelled B-u-d-d-h-i-s-t, critin.

“Is trollcates the same one who has stated (in his deeds) Jesus and the Gospel writers are liars and lunatics by denying Jesus is the Son of God…

Trollcates, if I have you confused with someone else, I apologize. If not, this is not a cut down, simply facts.”

Are you the same Terry Smith that used to (or imagined) a porn franchise? If not, so sorry Charlie, but if true, you can’t deny it and phooey on you-ey. Snap, I made that up to illustrate how utterly insipid is that accusation.

Why are you making such a judgment before looking over a couple of threads to see the polite (well, most of the time) nature of my presence here? Wait; let me guess—you’re a member of the BBC investigative committee?

Mr. Smith, the matter ceased to be a church issue when the church, in its “blessed assurance,” failed to deal with the matter some 17 years—I am a survivor of this crime during my childhood, and I know, “beyond a shadow of a doubt,” Gaines’ appalling inaction indicts him not simply as a Pastor, but as a reliably discerning human being. All the theology you throw at the issue won’t change the fact.

Are you the killer of canaries?

MOM4 said...

Dee,
I have not had the opportunity to listen to Dr Rogers on LWF today, but I intend to tonight. Some mornings are hard to sit in peace and quiet and enjoy his wonderful messages.
Actually, I am looking for one in particular and I guess I will have to call LWF and see if they can find it. It was on judgement - or the lack thereof - and I think it was something relating to Isiah 59 which is what I underlined with some notes in my Bible - I just remember he used the title about snake eggs and spider webs and something else. It seems I could have remembered it or found my notes by now, but for some reason it has escaped me. It is another good message for our situation! Does anyone else remember it? Is my scripture wrong relating to this sermon??

gmommy said...

Please no one throw anything when I make a few comments concerning Chuck Hannaford's letter.They are just my opinions based on my experiences.I am happy to the max that this letter has been written and it does confirm what David Brown alluded to and what many of us believed or knew about the report. It breaks my heart that PW's son was not treated with absolute respect from BBC leaders including SG. I am so happy that he has support and I am praying that God will give CH wisdom and everything he needs to minister to the best of his ability. CH is human. Let's not put him in the hero category just yet.Everyone grows..hopefully..but 10 years ago when BBC recommended him to a person with a heart similiar to PW's....CH was not strong enough to not be manipulated by this sick person. I hate dancing around things...it is not my normal way of communicating but it is just too sensitive an area to be completely blunt. It is also strictly my opinion that the letter could have been more direct and blunt but maybe he couldn't be because this is also such a sensitive matter.I just hope the people that seem to have been willfully disobediant to the easy parts of the Bible can understand his letter. I did see CH at GTBC before the report.

Barnabas said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Barnabas said...

Why have they taken the letter down from the SavingBellevue website?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Before you jump on the bandwagon praising or condemning Dr. Hannaford's letter, please note that he reportedly did not give anyone permission to publish it, so it was not meant for public consumption.

New BBC Open Forum said...

stonethrower,

I guess I just answered your question!

socwork said...

I wondered that too stonethrower...

gmommylv, I think I follow some of what you are saying, so I hope this will be related. Given CH's position, it is very likely that there is a great deal he could not share due to confidentiality and the nature of his relationship to the interested parties. My guess is that he said what he was able to (meaning what he was given permission to say), and did so in a way to communicate important information and not violate the victim by sharing too much information. jmo

sickofthelies said...

trollcakes..

did you change your name? LOL

because of MOI?

I like ' cakes' better than 'cates'

socwork said...

Ahh... NASS, you might want to edit my post from earlier with the link then, because although it is not listed on the website, I think the link still goes directly to the letter. It's my post from 1:47. (Or I can just delete my post if you prefer).

25+yrs@BBC said...

So it appears the IT report was fatally flawed. How long until the congregation is allowed to hear the whole truth?

How much does the DA know that the IT does not know because of the lack of turning over the most important stone? DCS?

Will the congregation have to find out from the Media? These are sad days for BBC.

Truth is not afraid of light.

jmo

David Hall said...

"trollcakes..

did you change your name? LOL

because of MOI?

I like ' cakes' better than 'cates.'

Ja, that and it's how most here address me anyway.

Piglet said...

I have a question that anyone can try to answer for me...

Chuck addressed the deacons in this letter, which I would expect he should do. However, what was the proposed outcome of this?

Our deacons have had their power stripped away from them and have shown little, if any, effort to recover it and work to restore the integrity of the pulpit and our church.

The grassroots group of "nobodies" have stuck their necks out because the deacons are ..... doing nothing.

Did Chuck expect some kind of action from them? I guess an answer would be purely speculation.

Lindon said...

"trollcakes..

did you change your name? LOL

because of MOI?

I like ' cakes' better than 'cates.'

Ja, that and it's how most here address me anyway."

You do understand that the natural progression (or should I say digression) will be to refer to you affectionately as simply 'cakes'.

I suppose that is better than johnny two fingers or vinnie the shark as nicknames. :o)

David Hall said...

Well, the company men would want it trimmed to troll--haha.

Tim said...

Two comments that I want to address:

FIRST:
ilovebbc said...
... He clearly told the entire congregation after Bro Steve was here that he didn't know what took the Pulpit Committee so long to determine what he'd known all along and that is that Bro Steve should be our next pastor.


REPLY:
Dr. Rogers had a wonderful since of humor and he did make this statement, however it was tongue in cheek and was followed by laughter from the congregation. I am not sure if the archives on the Bellevue web site go back far enough for anyone to listen to it or not, but it might and I would invite anyone to listen with their own ears. I feel certain that there is a copy in the Bellevue library if anyone would like to personally confront me on this issue. I am not hard to find and you can e-mail me if you would like.

This is the second time that I have addressed this statement and I am not sure if it was from the same poster or not. I sincerely hope that it was not, because it would indicate a premeditated attempt to mislead people if it is.



SECOND:
Terry smith said...
...For what its worth, it seems many are so eager to quote the law, but few recognize the greater law is forgive and move on.


REPLY:
I would like to know the Scriptural authority that you base this statement on. I believe that there are Scriptures that deal with repentance, forgiveness, restoration and pressing forward, but I believe that you have left out a good deal of sound doctrine in your statement.

Piglet said...

Off topic but IMPORTANT:

Guys, tomorrow is Valentines Day. Don't forget your sweetie!! :)

socwork said...

Does anyone have the link (or a copy) of the investigative committee's report still?

concernedSBCer said...

Hey, can anyone tell me where the Hannaford letter is or does anyone have a copy of it??? (I go to work and miss something important...)

Thank you! :)

searchingfortruthatbbc said...

It is true - the deacons themselves have no power - they are servants of the church. Chuck Hannaford's letter was sent to the deacon officers - that is a different story.

Piglet said...

searchingfortruthatbbc

Who are the deacon officers now?

I know I should know this..:/

socwork said...

Nevermind about the report, I found it.

Tim said...

ilovebbc,

If you have the dvd then you are well aware that after Dr. Rogers made that statement it was followed by laughter from the congregation and the sly grin that Dr. Rogers exhibited frequently. Of all the wonderful memories that I have his quick wit was one of my favorites.

The only thing that makes this item important is that your original statement was not that others had indicated that this was the man of Dr. Rogers chosing but that this comment was the proof of such and that is simply incorrect.

There is no need in my proving this point either. It is available for anyone to view and they can make up their own mind and I would certainly encourage anyone that is curious about this to do so. It would be far better for someone to see with their own eyes and hear with their own ears than believe my words.

I have seen this argument be brought forth over and over again. It would be beneficial if someone that has the dvd could transfer this segment to you-tube so the next time that it comes up, it would be easy to refute with a simple link.

Tim said...

Another post that caught my attention:

Just My Opinion said...
...I mean we have a number of people who can parse a statement into it's hidden meanings. Just look at the opening page with the diagnosis from icu nurse...what a wonderful mind reader she has tuned out to be. I am just waiting for the fortune teller to post and provide us all a glimpse into the future.

Reply:
I have to assume from your disparaging “fortune teller” remark that you have very little regard for this particular poster. It appears to me that this is someone that possesses great insight. The report, diagnosis, and analysis hit the mark fairly accurately in my opinion and quite frankly I would be interested to hear more from ICU.

MOM4 said...

ilovebbc,
I have a tendency to agree that Dr Rogers did like Steve Gaines and perhaps he did feel that he would be God's man for the church; however, Dr Rogers admitted to others after the fact that he had been "duped" and he did ask Steve Gaines to step down after he realized who he really was. He even told one of the members of the staff not to let "that bully" run him off. Whether you believe it or not, this is true and factual.
IMHO, I honestly believe that God allowed Steve Gaines to come to Bellevue for a specfic reason or reasons. There is corruption in the leadership, money being spent without accountability and loyal servants of God, men that God CALLED into the ministry, have been run off for questionable reasons. Also, if Steve Gaines character and integrity had not been called into question, we may have never learned about the Paul Williams incident. This is moral corruption of the worst kind and we as a congregation were being exposed, our fellow sisters in Christ were being victimized by him in "interviews" and "counseling". I do not know if there were other child victims, I pray that the DCS and DA investigations will reveal that in due time.
I also believe that Steve Gaines is an extremely arrogant and is more than likely a narcissist by definition. It is entirely possible that there is something about him that the Lord wanted to change or expose. If this is the case,the Lord will reveal it just as he has revealed all the other information that has been exposed recently.
Be assured that nothing anyone on this blog has done is news to God and that anything that has been exposed as a result of this blog has not come about without prayer and thought beforehand.
I do not expect you and others to believe what I say, you have chosen to turn your heads in the past, but the majority of all that is said has indeed proven to be true. I will note that when something is not true, or exact, someone steps up to correct it.

allofgrace said...

I just happen to believe, based on all I'd been hearing for years from many different people, that there might have been some truth in his remark that day. That's all I meant.

For the sake of argument, if people had been talking for years about Dr. Gaines coming to BBC at Dr. Rogers' retirement, I think the present situation would be evidence of the dangers of setting one's thoughts and desires around a particular man...like the old saying..."be careful what you wish for, you just might get it." jmho

socwork said...

You know, even if SG was Dr. Roger's best friend, closest confidant, disciple, whatever... have we not seen enough to realize that this does not matter at this point?

searchingfortruthatbbc said...

2007 Deacon Officers are as follows: Bryan Miller, Chairman
Ted Minor, 1st Vice Chairman
Dr. Beau Pittman, 2nd Vice Chair
Dr. Bob Vincent, 3rd Vice Chair
John Caldwell, 4th Vice Chair
Mark Smith, 5th Vice Chair
Derek Duncen, 6th Vice Chair
Jeff Pearson, Secretary
Terry Brimhall, Asst. Secretary
Spence Ray, Asst. Secretary

Tim said...

ilovebbc,

Fair enough. It was not my intent to appear confrontational on this issue, but it may have been conveyed in that manner in my "tone". Thanks for your input.


Mom4,
The DCS investigation will not be made public. It is presented to the DA's office for any further action and it is my understanding that this case is not being pursued any further at this time, unless something has changed recently.

The manner in which this was handled by the Investigative Committee seems to have been politically masterful at the moment. They managed to make the obviously correct recommendation and at the same time prevent information that would have required further recommendations.

There was an applicable quote from that BBC Senior Citizen posted earlier from Dr. Rogers.
"Nothing is politically right that is morally wrong."

searchingfortruthatbbc said...

Sorry Derek! That's Derek DunCAN

Piglet said...

socwork said

You know, even if SG was Dr. Roger's best friend, closest confidant, disciple, whatever... have we not seen enough to realize that this does not matter at this point?

Piglet says:

I agree. And it hurts my heart that Dr. Rogers probably knew, at the time of his death, that BBC was in trouble.

pepper said...

Does anyone know if Spence Ray is the brother of Larry Ray?

allofgrace said...

ez,
I think of it more as decretive or preceptive will...it was God's preceptive(divine law, precepts)will to be their King, but they wanted an earthly king..he decreed(his secret will), to give them what they wanted...for many different reasons known only to Him..but manifested in a multitude of problems that their desires caused.

Piglet said...

searchingfortruthatbbc

Thanks for those names of the deacon officers! :)

searchingfortruthatbbc said...

Yes! God wanted to be the only "KING" of the people, but they demanded a king like the other nations had, and God allowed it. Saul was the choice of the people, not God. Something to think about!

Anonymous said...

"stonethrower",

I see that you have taken exception to a godly man with a PROVEN history of faithfulness.

For the record, Steve McCune has been a faithful servant of the Lord for as long as I've been at Bellevue, and has been a wonderful instructor and role model to our college age men. Just bumping into him in the hallway was always a blessing.

As NASS said, NO ONE here has any argument with this man, and I'll also add that no one on earth does except you, apparently.

Stonethrower, why in the world would you post something like that here? Did you go to Mr. McCune with your complaint as Matthew 18 instructs before dragging his name through the mud for all the world to see? If not, you are guilty unscriptural action (sometimes known as moral failure, more commonly referred to as sin).

As a fellow Christian, I'm calling on you to repent and make restitution to Steve in the holy name of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Whatever personal gripe you have with Steve needs to stay personal.

Miriam Wilmoth said...

Regarding Dr. Rogers' comment about "knowing for months ... what took them so long?" -- I think I'd rather believe that Dr. Rogers was wrong in his judgment than that he deliberately misled, or lied to, the congregation with a "joke" that no one else was let in on. Not picking a fight ... just thinking out loud.

Anonymous said...

ed_t,

I'm Hope Patterson, and I approve of your 3:10 PM post.

Custos said...

A comment about steve mccune:

I've known Steve for years, and I asked him about this business that's been on the blog today. He told me that after the first verse he led, many of the deacons were still talking amongst themselves and/or not really involved. The sense that I took from his exhortation was just that, an exhortation for them to all sing and sing for joy to the Lord.

Steve is certainly not one who would ever Lord anything over anyone--he's one of the most down to earth, kind, gracious people I have ever had the privilege of knowing.

socwork said...

I don't know Steve McCune, but I have heard the same as Josh just shared, for what it's worth.

socwork said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Steve is certainly not one who would ever Lord anything over anyone--he's one of the most down to earth, kind, gracious people I have ever had the privilege of knowing.

You and me both, Josh.

socwork said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lindon said...

"You might pay special attention to the arrogance among the church leadership..."

Just today, Todd Friel at Way of the Master radio was playing clips of that arrogant priest in this documentary and making comments about arrogant church leaders, etc. It was very interesting. (Notice what the priest said about himself as being 'separate', different, special, etc...gave me the creeps)

But Todd pointed out how he will be on his knees at the Judgement Throne just like all the rest of us.

And, yes, I saw it online a while back when David Brown posted it. It is incredible what you will learn about the victim's journey. It will put so much of what happened at BBC into perspective.

socwork said...

Hey lindon,

That's how I heard about it too, listening to Todd Friel.

I deleted my post about it (didn't realize that David Brown had posted it earlier too), b/c the actual documentary is so graphic...

For those who don't know what I'm referring to, since I deleted it, it's a PBS Frontline show called "Hand of God" - it's one family's story of sexual abuse by their priest and then the church's response to the family.

Finance Guy said...

aslansown said...
Knowing Chuck Hanniford personnaly, I would expect nothing less. Chuck IS a man of true integrity.

I guess Chuck Hannaford landed on Bellevue's Nixionian "Enemies List'. He's in good company though, other members are Dr. Mike Spradlin, Dr. James Dobson and Mark Sharpe, Jack Batchlor and many others. The list I suppose grows daily as more and more people wake up to the lies and deception peddled by this gang of "prestige seekers"

I wonder just how long before the deacons and the elders-that-we-don't-have start quietly spreading around the reasons why Chuck doesn't have any credibility, like they've done to David Smith, Mark Sharpe, Richard Emerson and many others.

Lynn said...

Trollcakes,

Get my e-mail address from NASS and e-mail me :). I want to talk to you about something :).

Finance Guy said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
David Brown said...

Dear Brothers and Sisters: Earlier today one of the posters had some issues with the comments SOTL. I was about to respond when they apologized. It is too easy to go off on a victim and then throw the Bible at them.

I have tried to share with many here what it is like to be a victim. For those who don't know my story, if you will go to my profile and click on "wishlist"; you will find the link to it.

What happens to us is a horror and crime that I pray no one has to suffer. You may want to stick your heads in the sand but that does make it go away. Yet, there are too many of us out there.

I have said repeately that the situation at BBC was handled very poorly with regards to the victim. It has also opened up the wounds of many other victims.

We don't trust very well and we have a good reason. The very people that we trusted the most, abused us.

I have said the IT report and the leadership have not helped vicitms. Just look at how they dealt with this victim. He asked for a meeting to address it before it became public and what happened? Nothing. He was denied that right. Why? Why? Why?

And for the record, I want to make this point very clear: NEVER, NEVER should a victim ever meet any investigative team alone. NEVER. I have seen too many victims crushed even more by meeting these people alone. I did advise this victim and his friends not to meet them alone. If anyone wants to blame me, go ahead. I can handle the blame. But I will continue to stand up for victim's rights. I am tired of all these review boards/investigative teams holding all the cards.

And for victims to find out that their confidential files on found on someone else's desk is just unacceptable. Dare I mention that all kind of HIPAA violations have ocurred? Once again they feel betrayed and lied to.

This report while "sounding" thorough was far from it. Remember they gave a press release around the 1st week of January stating that the report would be finished on the 20th of January. They made that announcement before the very important January 11th meeting with the victim. How could they could they do that? It would appear they had already made their minds up.

Then the report is released. And though it did contain some facts and blame, it was full of excuses. Once again they have harmed victims. And we have to hear phrases like: "uncharted waters" and "I have never had to deal with something like this before."

How do you think victims feel when they hear this? Yes we are outraged. So when a victim gets a head of steam on here and lashes out, maybe you might understand. But instead of going off on them, just be in prayer for them. Please?

This has been a very trying time for all of us. A church family is hurting. Victims are hurting. Fellow brothers and sisters are hurting. There cannot be any more excuses.

PS: Thanks for the many prayers. I am on the mend. If you think that this crime will not involve you, you may be sadly mistaken. I found out just two weeks ago that I am not the only victim in my family of a pedophile. Can you imagine how I felt? And I was right in the middle of the BBC mess. Folks this crime is all around us. And now is not the time to hear "uncharted waters" ever again. Shame on the author of that quote. Shame!

I love you all,

David Brown
SNAP coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis

2006huldah said...

Mom4,
I used to have a copy of one of the LWF/Rogers tapes that was about judging, but it was about how nowadays people use the term "judge not lest ye be judged" to try to put Christians on a guilt trip. He taught from different scriptures that teach us how we ARE supposed to judge righteous judgment. I cannot tell you the name of it or the date either. I still have not made it back to lwf.org to listen to today's again, but I MUST before I go to sleep tonight. Dr. Rogers also was talking today about pastors who come to churches because of the money offered to them. It was very, very pertinent to our problems we're having at BBC today. I just wonder when he recorded that message.

Although I am growing weary of discussing whether Dr. Rogers said this or that about Steve Gaines becoming our pastor (the letter and during the first Gaines service), I will add that I have no doubt that Dr. Rogers loved Dr. Gaines and originally thought he would be a proper replacement. I had written Dr. Rogers an earlier letter after he announced his retirement and told him that while he was away from the pulpit, we had had several very good preachers visit. I told him we had one that even said that he felt that he was "standing on holy ground", which I felt was a compliment to Dr. Rogers and the church and which I thought would be nice to relate to him. I did not at that time remember which preacher it was who had said that. Apparently, Dr. Rogers had already been told this by someone else because when he wrote me back that time, he named Steve Gaines as being that pastor. Even though his letter was pretty short, he seemed to be sort of 'tickled' with Steve Gaines and his current endeavor as leader of the Southern Baptist Pastors' Conference that year. I could tell that Dr. Rogers thought that Steve Gaines was a good man. I know I still have that letter, too, but I have not been able to find it. I loved the way Steve Gaines on another visit just stopped right in the middle of his sermon and closed his eyes and started singing praises. I loved the way he had his youngest daughter (during another visit) sing with him. I thought Steve Gaines was Spirit-filled. But like I told Derek Calcote in a letter a few months ago that to put it as gently as I could--I thought Steve Gaines had lost his holy way before arriving at our church. Almost everybody I knew at Bellevue before Gaines was chosen selected him as either their first or second choice. Yes, I think we were duped; but I think it was the Lord's will for us for what could be many and various reasons. A week before they announced Steve Gaines as their choice, I wrote the Pulpit Committee a second letter in which I told them that Bellevue didn't have to have a prima donna. (I had heard that Steve Gaines did not want to come to BBC). I told them that Joe Jernigan had been doing a great job and would be an excellent choice. Then, after all those months of waiting, they suddenly announce their selection. I could say a lot more on this, but look how long I have already talked. Sorry about that, brothers and sisters. Back to lwf.org for today's gem.

Dee

socwork said...

Has Josh ever received the requested items from BBC? Or the "complete written response?"

Piglet said...

socwork

Email Tim with your question.

2006huldah said...

socwork,

I may be the only one on here right now and that's because I just got off the lwf website. I don't think Josh has received anything he requested. If he has, I haven't seen anybody say so on here. Maybe someone be will along shortly who actually knows for certain.

Dee

New BBC Open Forum said...

huldah,

At least some, and probably all, of the letter writers received responses a few days ago. They can share those if they wish, but the results were pretty much what was expected. The church is not willing to provide any of the requested records.

concernedSBCer said...

NBBCOF or anyone: Just a question-at what point does BBC's refusal to follow the law impact their status as a non-profit?

HJ said...

Mom4 said,
"IMHO, I honestly believe that God allowed Steve Gaines to come to Bellevue for a specfic reason or reasons... if Steve Gaines character and integrity had not been called into question, we may have never learned about the Paul Williams incident. This is moral corruption of the worst kind and we as a congregation were being exposed, our fellow sisters in Christ were being victimized by him in "interviews" and "counseling". I do not know if there were other child victims, I pray that the DCS and DA investigations will reveal that in due time."

I just came to BBC in Dec. 2004. I read often but dont post much because I feel like the "new kid on the block". My parents have been members for many years and I was talking with my mom about this just the other day, Mom4. We all know that God is sovereign and in control of EVERYTHING. As hurtful as this has been to many BBC members, God had some reason for leading the search committee to Steve Gaines. In HIS infinite wisdom, the chain of events may have happened to stop any further abuse from happening. I obviously dont know God's plans so Im only speculating. I know its a hard price to pay for those of you who are longtime members to see your church and the leaders you respected so much disappoint you but I think we all could agree that if a future victim has been saved from something horrible happening, it makes the heartache a little easier to deal with. How SG handled the PW situation has opened the eyes of a LOT of people about the lack of transparency and honesty from our leadership. Praise God for THAT! Now the world is watching what BBC response will be...that includes other child abusers in this area. Will we stand up for what is Biblical and send the message to all predators that our children will be protected NO MATTER WHAT or will we sweep it under the rug, claiming to "forgive and move on". I pray daily for those of you who are standing up for transparency and accountability at BBC. I stand behind you and pray that you will see the fruits of your labor very soon. It shows the kind of integrity that you folks are grounded in and I know some of that was "passed down" through the teaching of Dr. Rogers. Keep up the great work. Know that you are being lifted up to the throne of God by many many people....more than you know!

HJ said...

By the way, thank you NBCCOF for allowing this forum of discussion. Im sure it takes up a lot of your time and a LOT of patience to deal with some members. I pray God will bless you richly!

Standingontheshoulders1973 said...

pepper,

Yes, Spence and Larry are brothers.

concernedSBCer said...

Seeking Truth: What a thoughtful post. Romans 8:28 is not just a verse; it means something very important! God is sovereign.

I hate what is happening within BBC and other churches. To be betrayed by a church is horrible. To have leadership patently and deliberately disregard both God's Laws and man's law is unconscionable. It is a black eye on all Christians (and churches) because the unchurched are watching too wondering what makes US different....and they see nothing. So why would they want to seek what we have when we seem no different than the "world"?

Mike Bratton said...

New BBC Open Forum said...
mike bratton wrote:

"Why were some comments posted during your "moderation" and some not?"

I'm not sure, Mike. Why don't you post every comment that's posted to your blog? I know for a fact that you don't, but frankly, I couldn't care less why you don't.


I can count on one hand the number of posts I've chosen not to allow--on those rare times when I've had comment moderation active (usually, like in your case, when I've been out of town).

Those posts all had two things in common: foul language and vicious attacks.

Why are people with their own blogs so concerned with how I oversee this one? I haven't looked at yours in ages, and I've never commented there.

Then you must "know for a fact" how I moderate, when I have to moderate, from what someone else has told you, correct?

You might want to have another chat with him/her/them.

--Mike

New BBC Open Forum said...

Thank you, seekingtruth, both for the kind words and your thoughtful post. Please come out of "lurkdom" more often!

Mike Bratton said...

New BBC Open Forum said...
mike bratton wrote:

"Our," of course, meaning "everyone who wants to attack those in Bellevue leadership with whom they disagree just as long as they can either do so anonymously or when a poster's glamorous identity is an 'open secret.'"

Congratulations, Mike. You're the first to break the new rule that was implemented today at 10:02 a.m. (Oh, why am I not surprised.) Your 2:50 p.m. post just went bye bye.


I thought it wasn't "your" blog?

You really should do something about this burning obsession

Hyperbole isn't the easiest thing in the world to employ, obviously.

you have with people's "true" identities. I've said before, I could sign any name I please to whatever I write, and you wouldn't know the difference.

But you would.

--Mike

New BBC Open Forum said...

Mike,

1. Lest you think I'm ignoring you completely, I still haven't received any e-mails from you.

2. As an example, when moderation was on, I rejected 106 comments from the "things" in an hour's time. To my knowledge none contained "foul language or vicious attacks," but since they were speaking in tongues and there was no interpreter available, I couldn't in good conscience post them. (Wouldn't be Biblical, you know.) Surely you would have taken the same tack on your blog (unless one of your multitudinous gifts is interpretation).

3. Actually my impression of how you moderate comments came from comments by posters in the early days of your blog when I looked at it every day or so. I've never "chatted" with anyone about it and wouldn't waste my time doing so now. But really, can't you understand, I don't care! So, rhetorically speaking of course, why can't you just DROP IT?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Mike,

This is your last warning. Cut the you-know-what or I'll start deleting your posts. All you want to do is argue. It's pointless.

NBBCOF

sickofthelies said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Dee,

I remember the Dr. Rogers' sermon about judging very well. If I'm not mistaken, it was the very last sermon Adrian preached at Bellevue. He preached on Father's Day after his retirement, and I believe the sermon you mentioned was after that.

Also, it wasn't Dr. Gaines who said he felt he was standing on holy ground in Bellevue's pulpit back in 2001. It was David Mckinley, who was serving as pastor of First Baptist Church in Merritt Island, Fl (Dr. Rogers' old church).

2006huldah said...

To hope patterson,

Thank you for this information on both points! All this time I had been thinking that it must have been Steve Gaines who said "standing on holy ground" and all because of the 'out of the blue' statement in the response letter I had received from Dr. Rogers. THIS IS AMAZING IF YOU ARE INDEED CORRECT! Do you realize the fact that Dr. Rogers responded to me that way in the letter made me think HE had his eye on Steve Gaines (in a good way, as in 'future pastor')? This would have influenced ME in how I perceived Steve Gaines, too. Now, I am really thinking we missed the boat. Maybe it should have been David McKinley who was 'called' to be our pastor. You cannot imagine how shocking this news is to me! I DO thank you for telling me this, and I am taking you at your word. Obviously, you have some specific reason that you seem to KNOW THAT to be a fact. Amazing!

Mom4 was wanting to know about the judging sermon but could not find it. We may be able to figure out now--with your help--where to look for the it in the archives.

Hope, you have been a tremendous blessing to me today. I cannot tell you how strange this news makes me feel. As my mind is still reeling from this revelation, I am thinking back as to how I felt when Dr. Rogers letter 'seemed' to be attributing that quote to Dr. Gaines, and how I felt a little confused at the time thinking that it was someone else. Now, I have got to find that other letter I have from Dr. Rogers. Thank you, again, Hope.

Dee

MOM4 said...

hope patterson said...
"Also, it wasn't Dr. Gaines who said he felt he was standing on holy ground in Bellevue's pulpit back in 2001. It was David Mckinley, who was serving as pastor of First Baptist Church in Merritt Island, Fl (Dr. Rogers' old church)."

At that time, the pulpit WAS Holy Ground. We have gone a long way in a short time.....

New BBC Open Forum said...

hope patterson wrote:

"If I'm not mistaken, it was the very last sermon Adrian preached at Bellevue."

Actually, I think his last sermon at Bellevue was on August 21, 2005. There could have been one after that, but that's the last time I remember. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong!

2006huldah said...

Mom4,

Okay, I know you saw the post from hope patterson, so let's figure. If Dr. Rogers preached the 'judging' sermon the Sunday after Fathers' Day in the year 2005, wouldn't that be about June 20-something? I hope it will be the right one you are looking for. I DO remember one that had 'snakes, spiders and ???' in the title. Uhmmm?

Dee

MOM4 said...

Dee,
I am thinking this one was about "judgement" rather than "judging". I am trying to find out and I will let you know as soon as I do. I am also going to order the tape from LWF if they have it - which they probably do. I just hate it when I can't remember specifics:) I guess that comes with "age"???

New BBC Open Forum said...

The archives of Dr. Rogers' sermons on Bellevue's site only go up to February 27, 2005.

Could it have been the sermon entitled "Snakes in the Garden"? That one's listed here.

Anonymous said...

Dee,

It is so ironic that you would say "Maybe it should have been David McKinley who was 'called' to be our pastor." I can't say how many times I've thought that exact same thing.

At lunch after he preached here all those years ago there was a consensus among us 'experts' that he should be Dr. Rogers' replacement after he retired. I felt so disappointed when I learned that he wasn't being considered.

Oh, well...

p.s.
The 'judging' sermon wasn't the Sunday after Father's Day, but sometime later, if I'm remembering correctly. The main point of the sermon was to make righteous judgements about all things.

2006huldah said...

Maybejustmaybe said,

"Regarding Dr. Rogers' comment about "knowing for months ... what took them so long?" -- I think I'd rather believe that Dr. Rogers was wrong in his judgment than that he deliberately misled, or lied to, the congregation with a "joke" that no one else was let in on..."
*******
I absolutely agree with you 100%!
Do you think that THIS would have been a joking matter to Adrian Rogers? Absolutely not!

Dee

aslansown said...

NBBCOF said,
Actually, I think his last sermon at Bellevue was on August 21, 2005. There could have been one after that, but that's the last time I remember. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong!

I'll bite. YOUR WRONG,SO WRONG AND IMMATURE. WOW, I CAN'T BELIEVE HOW WRONG!

Feel better now?

2006huldah said...

Oh, Hope,

Now, I am really feeling the pain. I cannot express to you how much my heart is hurting right now. If only I could have remembered on my own that it had been David McKinley who said that. If only...

I never even ONCE heard anyone mention the name of David McKinley as a choice. Yet, reflecting, I know that there was a fog in my mind back then--a searching for truth of those visiting pastors and who had said what. Oh, if only I could have attributed THAT quote to the right man. If only...

Dee

2006huldah said...

Seekingtruth said,

"I read often but dont post much because I feel like the "new kid on the block". My parents have been members for..."

We love new kids around here. Your post was wonderful, and you have contributed much. Please, join us more often.

Dee

MOM4 said...

This is the message that I am referring to - this particular segment is from a reprint in the Commercial Appeal - I think the message may be older than 2005:

"Should we just look the other way at lying?

A major magazine ran a cover story that discussed the rampant dishonesty in our culture. I was glad it brought up the subject, but it just confused me by seemingly excusing lying. Since everybody does it, should we just look the other way?

America is at a stage where honesty is being trampled in the dust. Is it simply a decline in honesty as your magazine suggests? It is much more fundamental than that. We have lost the concept of absolute, God-given truth.

Isaiah 59:14 says, "Judgment is turned back, and righteousness stands afar off; for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter." Think back over the last 10 years. Can anybody dispute that judgment, righteousness, and equity have been sidelined? Lying is not simply a byproduct of modern culture with which we must live. Ignorance and disrespect of truth are the shears carving away the fabric of our society.

If you look the other way you become part of the problem and not the solution. Because so many have looked away, justice is on the junk pile, righteousness is rare, and equity is evaded. God can use a single voice, however, to reverse a torrent of unrighteousness.

Stand for justice, stand for righteousness, stand for equity, and stand for truth. As you do, be confident that God will lift you up (James 4:10)."


I will continue to search until I find the entire message. If anyone knows the date, it would help a lot. Thanks!

socwork said...

Well aslansown, it was nice knowin' ya...

Just kidding, that was funny. :)

And thanks everyone for the updates on my question from last night.

Anonymous said...

Dee,

Don't be so hard on yourself. David McKinley is just as well known as Ken Whitten at Bellevue, but neither were seriously considered as far as I know. I submitted David's name for consideration, and I know at least 2 others who did too. He seemed like such a natural choice. Memphis State and MABTS graduate, great preaching style. The pulpit committee felt otherwise, though.

aslansown said...

SOCWORK:
Just felt the need for a (Iknow) little humor on this cloudy morning.
I just finished listening to David Jeremiah talking about the life of Joseph. One very poignant item in his discussion of what made Joseph a great man was that Joseph was still shocked at sin. In fact, he called what Potifer's wife asked of him a detestible thing to bring before God.
Anyone remember a similar attitude toward sin expressed by the IC or from the pulpit?
Dee, I was puzzled over your agony in the quote attribution until I heard this about Joseph. Now I understand and share your sorrow.
How can we dare to have such a flippant view of that which grieves the heart of our Father?

2006huldah said...

NASS,

Mom4 and I already know about "Snakes in the Garden" because that was just on LWF yesterday. It was about apostasy.

Now, I see that what Mom4 is looking for is actually about 'judgement' not 'judging'. It had those icky things in the title, though. Can you find it?

Dee

2006huldah said...

Hope,

I've gone to Bellevue for 28 years, and I didn't know David McKinley. Ken Whitten was a household word back when we first started going to Bellevue--not David McKinley, though.

This is really hitting me hard. I am trying to figure out why this is impacting me in my soul so hard--right now and at this very moment. There is definitely a deep sorrow there. I have never experienced this feeling before. I must go pray.

Dee

MOM4 said...

Dee said...
"This is really hitting me hard. I am trying to figure out why this is impacting me in my soul so hard--right now and at this very moment. There is definitely a deep sorrow there. I have never experienced this feeling before. I must go pray."

There is a deep spiritual burden on us right now - we must all pray and pray hard. If the truth is not presented for all to see, then Bellevue will be on the junk pile with the rest of the apostate churches in America. Those that do not realize how important the truth and righteousness are to God, have no concept of His sovereignty or His grace. This Holy God we serve will not allow us to go on in darkness and sin if we are truly saved. There WILL be justice and there WILL be accountability and it WILL be from Him.
I see so many who are willing to say that peace and forgiveness are more important that truth and justice.
We serve a jealous God. I do not want to be on the receiving end of His wrath because I failed to follow His Word.

concernedSBCer said...

Mom4- AMEN!

New BBC Open Forum said...

aslansown,

Uh... thanks. Heh heh. Now, can you provide me with FACTS?

Yeah... didn't think so.

aslansown said...

FACTS! I DON'T NEED NO STINK'N FACTS!I JUST I KNOW I'M RIGHT, THAT'S WHAT!

aslansown said...

I THINK I'LL JUST GO AND HAVE A pathetic LUNCH.

aslansown said...

i'm really gone now. No, I really mean it. (said patheticly)

Anonymous said...

Dee,

I started at Bellevue in the mid 90s, and I didn't know that much about Ken Whitten. A friend told me that he is much better known than David because he was on staff. Even so, he still wasn't very high on the pulpit committee's list.

I'll be praying for you today, but I hope you're not blaming yourself for not remembering who made the statement about 'holy ground.' Dr. McKinley is an extraordinarily humble man, and he has a way of delivering a great message without making a lasting impression about himself. The fact that you didn't remember him is just a testament to his preaching style.

socwork said...

The 60 day window for the DCS investigation should be up any day now. Does anyone remember when that report/investigation was initiated?

socwork said...

Yes, Happy Valentine's Day everyone!

I hope you all have fun plans for the evening.

For those of us who don't, we'll... um... we'll be here.

Don't worry about us though. I mean, really, don't even think about us...

We'll... uh... we'll be ok. *sniff*

MOM4 said...

A kind soul found the Dr Rogers sermon I am talking about. It is “Snake Eggs, Spider Webs and Traffic Jams” preached 8-7-88.

If anyone has a copy or access to one, please let me know!

Thank you Kind Soul! I appreciate your efforts!

alphasenior said...

Are you speaking of David McKinley who is associate pastor of Prestonwood Baptist Plano (Dallas) Tx? His Father Harold is a long time BBC member.

Anonymous said...

alphasenior,

Yes, that is the same David McKinley. I believe his title is 'teaching' pastor, but his duties are the same as associate pastor.

New BBC Open Forum said...

mom4,

Try here.

MOM4 said...

NASS,
That website had a great set of the heritage series, but the entire set was $70 - I was looking for a single tape. I will check around some more - although I could use a listen to the entire set - it looked like just what we need!!
Thanks!

concernedSBCer said...

socwork: I'll be here....don't cry....we can talk all night!

New BBC Open Forum said...

Oh, sorry. I didn't realize you couldn't order them separately.

Bellevue's library catalog shows a copy.

New BBC Open Forum said...

ATTENTION!

A NEW THREAD HAS BEEN STARTED, SO PLEASE CONTINUE YOUR DISCUSSIONS THERE.

Thank you,

NBBCOF

2006huldah said...

Mom4 gave us the following:

"Lying is not simply a byproduct of modern culture with which we must live. Ignorance and disrespect of truth are the shears carving away the fabric of our society.

If you look the other way you become part of the problem and not the solution. Because so many have looked away, justice is on the junk pile, righteousness is rare, and equity is evaded. God can use a single voice, however, to reverse a torrent of unrighteousness.

Stand for justice, stand for righteousness, stand for equity, and stand for truth. As you do, be confident that God will lift you up (James 4:10)."
*****
Mom4, I LOVED this. This was from Dr. Rogers? Doesn't this speak so much to our current situation. And the "God can use a single voice, however, to reverse a torrent of unrighteousness." At the moment I am wondering if the devil might have used a single voice to bring about the opposite. (And I'm not talking about my own, but rather an unknown one.) Man, that gets to me. Is this article from the "Spider Webs..." sermon, too? I was thinking that they probably have it at the Bellevue library.
****
Aslansown said the following:

"Dee, I was puzzled over your agony in the quote attribution until I heard this about Joseph. Now I understand and share your sorrow. How can we dare to have such a flippant view of that which grieves the heart of our Father?"

Aslansown, thank you for your understanding and for being in the study of the Word which enabled you to have this insight.
****
Hope Patterson said...

Dee,
"I'll be praying for you today, but I hope you're not blaming yourself for not remembering who made the statement about 'holy ground.' Dr. McKinley is an extraordinarily humble man, and he has a way of delivering a great message without making a lasting impression about himself. The fact that you didn't remember him is just a testament to his preaching style."

Hope, thank you for praying for me today. It is important. There is something going on in me after your revelation this morning about the quote, and I still don't know what it is all about even after praying. I am going to continue praying until I get my answer, though. I think what you have said here about David McKinley's being so humble might be part of the answer. The reason the "standing on holy ground" always echoed through my soul was because I knew it was said sincerely when I had heard it, and because NOW I know it was NOT attributed to the right man in my mind. Now I am wondering if someone misinformed Dr. Rogers, too, about who had said it while he was gone and maybe it influenced HIS thinking. Then, when Dr. Rogers said that to me about Steve Gaines, I thought he was attributing the quote to Dr. Gaines. Therefore, this incorrect thinking would have influenced both of us and I don't know how many more. It is so strange. That whole time frame is coming back to me now. I remember how we had all those different pastors come in that summer of 2001 since the church had given Dr. and Mrs. Rogers the whole summer off for vacation. The World Trade Center was destroyed September 11, just a couple of weeks after Dr. Rogers had stood below it and looked skyward. All strange.

I am in sackcloth and ashes over this. I am afraid that the humility we all wanted in a pastor/leader was in David McKinley and he wasn't even given the time of day. Keep praying everyone. Pray fervently. I think an answer is coming.

Dee

Mike Bratton said...

New BBC Open Forum said...
Mike,

This is your last warning. Cut the you-know-what or I'll start deleting your posts. All you want to do is argue. It's pointless.

NBBCOF


Nice to see that you censored yourself.

And if I may, it's never "pointless" to encourage people to greater accountability and responsibility.

Did you get my e-mail? I tried again at 9:13 this morning. But with your clairvoyance, you probably knew that already.

Just kidding!

--Mike

David Hall said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
«Oldest ‹Older   401 – 525 of 525   Newer› Newest»