Wednesday, February 07, 2007

Conflict of Interest?

There have been many questions over the past year about perceived conflicts of interest on the Pastor Search Committee which called Dr. Steve Gaines to Bellevue. This article details many of those concerns.

Please limit your discussion to this topic. Any comment that makes mention of the subject of the previous topic WILL BE DELETED!


Thanks to Karen for this topic suggestion.

120 comments:

Karen said...

Karen said...
Finance Guy said...
Another thought about Larry Ray. Charlie Brand is Larry Ray's father in law. Draw your own conclusions there, but I know for a fact that Charlie Brand is a ferverant Pastor Supporter. More on that to come whenever a new thread get's started.


Eric Brand is Charlie Brand's son and was on the Pastor's Serch Committee. Just some more intertwing.

karen

New BBC Open Forum said...

Karen wrote:

FG said...

More examples of "he who has the guns makes the rules".

Isn't that supposed to be The New Golden Rule:

He who has the gold, makes the rules.

Just wondering - I like your version too!

karen

2:29 PM, February 07, 2007

Karen said...

Just for the record - I copied from savingbellevue.com so the "thanks for the topic" goes to Jim Haywood! :)

karen

concernedSBCer said...

Is it considered a conflict of interest that is seems as if it was always planned for JP to return to BBC? My son was in the band for years and it was always discussed how he would leave for a while and then come back because "every leader had to have experience at another church." Doesn't that negate the calling of God if men had it planned all along?

Just asking.....

StoneThrower said...

I've got a question about Jim Haywood.

Where does he get off calling us bloggers gossipers?

He deleted the link to the blog, and when you click on the place the link was, it is to a sermon about gossip.

Finance Guy said...

I said "guns" because of the big burly guys with ear pieces wearing blue coats with suspiciously big bulges walking around, eating the choir's donuts, drinking the young marrieds' "gormet" coffee, forcing people to put their cameras away. You know who I'm talking about. And Karen, I think your brother was a big teddy bear!!

Renewed said...

I'll repost my comment from the other thread.
Renewed said:

So have you gone to Larry personally and discussed this behavior with him?

Renewed

Finance Guy said...

I don't think he needs to be attacked personally, but he certainly has exhibited behavior that deserves to be discussed in light of his position and the events that have transpired over the past year.

charlie fox said...

Ask the members of GBC how their current Pastor Search Committee was created. Wait, I'll tell you. They used their Bylaws, floor nominations and votes at Business Meetings.

David Brown said...

My dear brother and sisters: Several of you have contacted me regarding the status of Ordination Committee taking action that was recommended by the Personnel Committee.

I contacted David Coombs yesterday and David told me that Paul surrendered his license when his employment was terminated. I was told that the Committee will meet soon to make that action offical.

I pray that this will end any specualtion regarding this matter. Much has been suggested and assumed which has been incorrect.

Please continue to be in prayer for all concerned. There is much healing to be done yet. A lot of wounded fellow saints are still hurting. They need your prayers and love. It is hard to explain to someone who has never been abused what is like to be a victim.

I had some ask me how I could have ever allowed it to happen to me, that after all I was 15. I just tell them that they had to have been there in my case in 1961. It is a lot different today but the abuse still continues.

Some suggest it is worse today than then. I am not sure. It does take a victim time to deal with it. We saw how long it took to deal with it in this present Bellevue situation What is happening now; victims are beginning to feel they can be believed and so they elect to come forward.

Last Friday I was contacted by still two more victims. That was a total of 5 last week

I am not defending this blog but for those quick to condemn it, wait. There has been much good to come from it. It has helped so many hurting victims to speak out. Some for the very first time. And that is ALWAYS good.

I love you all and ask for your continued prayers.

David Brown
SNAP coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis

gbc lurker said...

I really wonder how all of this is going to end for BBC. Would asking the Southern Baptist Convention for some kind of mediation forum between the leadership and members be a possibility I wonder? At this point, I don't know what other option there would be, other than getting a court order to see the documents the leadership isn't willing to disclose. Also, did they leadership consider the committee's recommendations about the Paul Williams situation approved by the congregation since they read it in a member setting and no one opposed? How do you think this will all end.

oc said...

Ok, Karen's here. NBBCOF is here. Am I here?! Testing...

Botheredstill said...

Sorry, but I think we are over this subject too.

oc said...

finance guy said, "I feel like a visitor in my own church".

Man, that really is sad. That is a heart-broken statement if I ever heard one. I am so sorry but know that many are praying for you and the church. God bless you, brother.

Finance Guy said...

Renewed
So have you gone to Larry personally and discussed this behavior with him?

and accomplish nothing and risk getting on the Nixonian "enemies list" being kept by John Caldwell and Mark Daughtry?
Uh...No.

"But that's the Christian thing to do" you might respond.

Jesus does not call us to step in front of the freight train.

Finance Guy said...

While on the subject of conflicts of interest,I have a thought about why David Purdue is so emotionally involved, and gets so angry in meetings where the Pastor's character is called into question.

As is often the case, you should probably follow the money. Word on the street is that Steve Gaines intends to fuel a radio and TV ministry in the Mid-South (Memphis/Jackson) Area that rivals what he had built in the Birmingham. Apparently David Purdue and his son-in-law are invested at some level in this. As to what they expect to received from this venture, your guess is as good as mine. Just helps explain why David Purdue is so vehemently...uh..'passionate'.. toward people who dare question Steve Gaines character or competence.

allofgrace said...

I think a large number of people knew the "search" for a new pastor was a farce.

Piglet said...

At the end of the "Investigative Team and Personnel Committee Reports" that were printed and provided, you will find the "Personnel Committee Report" which begins:

"After much discussion and prayer, the Personnel Committee MOVES (emphasis mine) to APPROVE and ACCEPT the recommendations that the Investigative Team submitted."

Following that is a list of 5 items approved (by whom? not us).

These are condensed as follows:

1) PW termination

2) Ordination counsel will address the ordination of PW

3) counseling offered to those affected by the PW issue

4) Ongoing training and review of policies and procedures

5) Counseling and training for ministers who knew and kept it secret.


Sorry, NASS, this is off topic.

Esther said...

renewed wrote: "So have you gone to Larry personally and discussed this behavior with him?'

Please read Matthew 18 very closely. The situation we are discussing is very public.

A very telling comment from the last thread: "I feel like a visitor to my church"

You ain't seen nutin' yet. Wait until BBC has a 'guest services' or customer service department for members. Most mega's have them. Members are referred to as 'guests' or customers in the GCM churches. I guess it now the "priesthood of guests"?

oc said...

stonethrower,

I was wondering about that too! Now we're just 'gossipers'?

Karen said...

FG,

Yes, my brother rocks!

karen

stonethrower,

Good question - email him and ask.

And that's all I've got say about that. :)

karen

Karen said...

concernedSBCer said...
Is it considered a conflict of interest that is seems as if it was always planned for JP to return to BBC


Sounds like it to me - BUT I know JP has said he went to Gardendale to "learn how to worship".

karen

Karen said...

FG,

FYI, my brother was never a security guard at BBC, but he is a security guard part time elsewhere. He worked at the church a few years back, but not as a guard.

And he still ROCKS!

karen

New BBC Open Forum said...

brokenheart,

The information you heard was wrong. I've confirmed that for certain.

NBBCOF

achristianbeliever said...

Piglet said...
....
Also, if you read Wayne Vandersteeg's comment at the end of the PW informational meeting, it seems as though he opened up a business meeting without anyone knowing and declared the PW report and consequences (training he he) approved by the congregation. This slipped right by me but my husband caught it later.

Comments anyone?

and later
Piglet said:

At the end of the "Investigative Team and Personnel Committee Reports" that were printed and provided, you will find the "Personnel Committee Report" which begins:

"After much discussion and prayer, the Personnel Committee MOVES (emphasis mine) to APPROVE and ACCEPT the recommendations that the Investigative Team submitted."


Piglet,

I took what WV said as they had their own business meeting during their private Personnel Committee meeting that I believe SG himself appointed. Didn't SG hire DC? SG later states at the end of this "investigation" report meeting the following(from my notes):

"gratitude to DC & investigative team",
"thanked WV & personel committee", &
he "supports the reports" (well, I guess so!?)

You see this entire investigation was full of conflict of interest.
And they do have business meetings, they are just within the realm of committees formed by SG himself! No one could openingly oppose any motion since there was never a formal vote called.

socwork said...

Some people have mentioned Narcissistic Personality Disorder on this blog before. A core characteristic of Narcissists is to gather a small group of yes men around them, charm them, make sure they're loyal to you, and everyone else is expendable.

If (and I'm not labelling or diagnosing... just thinking out loud) SG is Narcissistic, these "conflicts of interest" would be entirely consistent with this idea.

New BBC Open Forum said...

On January 25, 2007, David Coombs stated to Josh Manning regarding Mr. Manning's request for church records that had been requested 5 days earlier as per TN law, "I will give you a complete written response."

Update: Just thought you'd like to know that as of today, February 7th, Josh is still eagerly awaiting receipt of Mr. Coombs' "complete written response" and/or the requested records.

oc said...

socwork,

Not good traits for a shepherd, if this is indeed a disorder that SG has. If this is the case, wouldn't it had been recognized long before this? Just asking.

concernedSBCer said...

Karen,
When a statement is made like that, it has a reverse connotation. If he left "to learn how to worship" what was he doing before? What had he learned at Bellevue? If SG came to BBC to make them "a praying church" what had they been before? A non-praying church? Words mean things and slams come in many different forms. Unfortunately it seems as if arrogance comes in many different forms as well.

charlie fox said...

socwork,
Just for you.

What follows is a check list of character traits used to identify Narcissistic Personality. If your pastor or someone else you know can be characterized by a majority of these realize you have a major challenge on your hands. This check list should be given to those who have had the closest continual contact with the narcissist. Take into consideration that some people whom the narcissist has surrounded himself with will be blind to all these, as they have either become co-dependent with the narcissist, or have blind loyalty to the ‘position of pastor.’

Self-centered. His needs are paramount and take precedence over the church
No remorse for mistakes or misdeeds. Will not offer heartfelt apologies of ask forgiveness.
Unreliable, undependable. Will change his mind and reverse decisions at will
Does not care about the consequences of his actions—may not even understand the connection
Projects his faults on to others. High blaming behavior; never his fault
Little if any conscience. Will do most anything he thinks will not be discovered. May ask staff to fudge the books.
Insensitive to needs and feelings of others
Has a good front (persona) to impress and exploit others
Low stress tolerance. Easy to provoke into anger
People are to be manipulated for his needs, accomplishing his desires
Rationalizes easily. Twists conversation to his gain at other’s expense. If trapped, keeps talking, changes the subject or gets angry
Pathological lying. Will lie if he thinks it will further his image and if he doesn’t think it will be discovered. When lies are followed up on, will imply that the other person is mistaken, and that he never said the lie in the first place
Tremendous need to control situations, conversations, and group meetings
No real values. Mostly situational
Often perceived as caring and understanding and uses this to manipulate
Angry, rapidly changing moods
Does not share ideas, feelings, emotions
Conversation controller. Must have the first and last word
Is very slow to forgive others. Hangs onto resentment
Secret life. Hides money, friends, activities
Likes annoying and provoking others. Likes to create chaos and disrupt for no reason
Moody - switches from nice guy to anger without much provocation
Seldom expresses appreciation unless he is buttering the person up for further use
Grandiose. Convinced he knows more than others and is correct in all he does
Lacks ability to see how he comes across to others. Defensive when confronted with his behavior. Never his fault
Can get emotional, tearful. This is about show or frustration rather than sorrow
He breaks women's spirits to keep them dependent
Needs threats, intimidations to keep others close to him
Highly contradictory
Convincing. Must convince people to side with him
Hides his real self. Always “on”, playing the part when in public
Kind only if he's getting from you what he wants

He has to be right. He has to win. He has to look good
He announces, not discusses. He tells, not asks
Does not discuss openly, has a hidden agenda
Controls money of others but spends freely on himself
Unilateral condition of, "I'm OK and justified so I don't need to hear your position or ideas."
Always feels misunderstood
You feel miserable with this person. He drains you
Does not listen because he does not care
Is not interested in problem-solving
Very good at reading people, so he can manipulate them
Will exaggerate and brag about past accomplishments
Concerned with getting what he wants NOW—immediately
Will not want to share his pulpit/platform with others
Will be envious of any other staff person who is loved or highly respected by the congregation
Will be overly concerned with the ‘image’ of the church building/bulletins etc.
Feels that he has been taken advantage of over and over again—’knife in the back syndrome.’
Dress may change based on whomever is his latest idol
Spend long hours ‘doing church’, but little will be accomplished
Nit-picky about minute details, but miss the entire big picture

cjesusnme said...

I know......I bet he has to be ordained to do that Nass! I'm sure he will reply after he is ordained!

oc said...

I am just not getting this. Forgive my unbelief, but a church member really can't get a list of members from the church? Again I say, is this really an SBC church?

Listen, I graduated from Hardin-Simmons University, and was required to study Baptist polity. What I'm reading is not Baptist polity. Again I ask, is this an SBC, or even a Baptist church?
I have been a deacon for over 25 years, and I'm not naive. What have you gotten yourself into?

Piglet said...

a christian believer

Thanks for your insight.

If the committees do all the voting and SG forms the committees, then I guess he has what Sam Shaw at GBC wanted all along but wasn't sneaky enough to pull off...

New BBC Open Forum said...

cjesusnme wrote:

"I bet he has to be ordained to do that Nass! I'm sure he will reply after he is ordained!"

Oh, I bet you're right. Why didn't I think of that? Josh should be watching his mailbox for a "complete written response" sometime around the first of March. Gotcha.

Piglet said...

Charlie

Boy, that's a mouthful from you!

Interesting post.

Sound like anybody we know? :)

socwork said...

oc,

Not necessarily. Typically, people with this disorder (or personality traits) are very good at covering their tracks (or manipulating circumstances around them) for a very long time, until something happens that makes their meticulously crafted world crumble.

And I agree, not good characteristics for a shepherd at all.

charlie fox said...

Piglet said...
a christian believer

Thanks for your insight.

If the committees do all the voting and SG forms the committees, then I guess he has what Sam Shaw at GBC wanted all along but wasn't sneaky enough to pull off...

Reply:

The GBC members will tell you that he was sneaky enough, but GBC has bylaws.

socwork said...

Thanks charlie fox :)

oc said...

I'm sorry if my last post sounded harsh but I am angry,and I'm not even a member there. I am angry that the leadership has led you to a place where you can't even have full disclosure of church records. Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds? Except for theology, you might as well be catholic, because this isn't Baptist polity. You deserve better, and now I'm so angry I need to back away from the blog and have some quiet time and practice some anger management. Don't settle for this!!! Talk to you later.

Piglet said...

oc saidI'm sorry if my last post sounded harsh but I am angry,and I'm not even a member there. I am angry that the leadership has led you to a place where you can't even have full disclosure of church records. Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds? Except for theology, you might as well be catholic, because this isn't Baptist polity. You deserve better, and now I'm so angry I need to back away from the blog and have some quiet time and practice some anger management. Don't settle for this!!! Talk to you later.

Piglet says:

I wish our own deacons cared as much as you do.

Piglet said...

charlie fox said

The GBC members will tell you that he was sneaky enough, but GBC has bylaws.
Piglet says:

Puny as they may be, we do have an old set. So how do we get these guys to follow the bylaws we do have?

Is BBC's tax exempt status in any way dependant on their following bylaws or releasing documents to the members?

Or can a few guys really take over $30,000,000.00 and zillions of dollars worth of property PAID FOR with the tithes of these pesky annoying members who just won't shut up and go away...

Lawyers lurking??

Come, LORD Jesus! said...

Here we go AGAIN!

How is it that Dayna Street's IRS form 990 is up for all of us to view?

Someone at some point in time is going to hit someone with a lawsuit that will ring loudly for years for invading one's privacy for the purpose of making a point in a blog. Aren't facts on a topic enough without acting like amateur private detectives?

Surely we are not like ravenous dogs that have to have bloody raw meat thrown in front of us to verbally devour on a blog....or are we?

It appears that it is time for us to separate ourselves from all of this. Since blood is sought from offending parties, who knows when it might be OUR turn? There are very dangerous and ravenous hearts involved in the ones doing such a thing to other people. It is NOT of The LORD Jesus at all. We had thought this was a CHRISTIAN blog where people are offered things to discuss offered in an "up and up" fashion.... This thread (which includes a woman's private IRS form) and the previous thread topic have manifested sin in the camp and The LORD Jesus is not pleased at all.

While discussing sins of others, we have overlooked sin that we are viewing ourselves in being encouraged to be busybodies in other people's private business to the point of invading their privacy. This type of thing does not interest us in the least. The topic could have been addressed without such. It indeed was an excellent topic.

We are in the last days with the antichrist poised and ready to take his spot on God's prophetic stage and we actually have the time to go digging in another person's private business while disguising it under a mask of "concern for Bellevue"???

Seems there is a dangerous beam that needs to be removed before looking at a mote. The Bible tells us NOT to DEVOUR one another. SURELY God's inerrant and infallible Word matters....or does it?

Sincerely in The LORD and ONLY Savior Jesus Christ,
Stephen and Bonita Ann Richie

Living Hope In Jesus
www.livinghopeinjesus.com

Lindon said...

"Typically, people with this disorder (or personality traits) are very good at covering their tracks (or manipulating circumstances around them) for a very long time.."

Hi guys, I have to weigh in on this because of my past experience with this and 'leadership'.

Actually, 'narcissists' make it into top leadership positions more than you may think. And, as we dumb down what we think is 'sin', such as lying being a mistake instead of a sin, we are seeing more and more. Remember Bill Clinton? He is a classic narcissist. They are extremely charming and will do whatever it takes to win. They are extremely good at climbing the ladder becasue they are adept at seeing the power brokers and ingratiating themselves. And, lets face it, being an admirer of those in power can only help you.

Would you have ever guessed that we would as a nation would decide that a person's morality had nothing to do with their ability to make important decisions in a public job? Would you put up with a high school principle that behaved as Clinton did with an employee?

Did you notice how confusing all the information around Clinton was for long periods of time? This is the classic trick. What's true, what's not? So people are grasping at anything to try and point out the evil. But everything is 'explained away' such as: 'This is just the politics of personal destruction'. Sound familiar?

Here is the scary part. A Narcissisistic personality is usually formed by age 10 or 11. They usually have one parent with similar traits, was extremely indulgent or an absentee parent. In effect, they learned how to manipulate early because it worked and they spend the teen years perfecting it. And, this can work for years and years because of the way we have dumbed down the consequences of lying, etc.

If I had a dollar for every narcissistic VP or CEO I have met, I would be rich. What you may not realize is that many people love them and seek their approval because they can be so charismatic. N's feed on this but beware, if you challenge them, you are done for because they fight to win and because of their lack of 'conscious' they can win using methods most would not dare.

But the bottom line is that it is not really a disorder. It is just a result of not shepherding a child and using the rod of discipline. Or, it could be the result of the lack of common grace being withheld. Either way, it is sin.

I have had my fill of narcissists big time. I got to know their tricks very well.

gbc lurker said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
charlie fox said...

Piglet said...

Puny as they may be, we do have an old set.

PUNY is an gross understatement.

gbc lurker said...

Piglet posed a good question.

Could Bellevue lose their tax exempt status by not following the rules?

And you really have to wonder if that's really the last set of bylaws...... I would think you would have to have a pretty decent layout of how you run things if you get the perks of a non-profit tax exempt status, but maybe all you really need is a board of directors.

New BBC Open Forum said...

CLJ wrote:

"How is it that Dayna Street's IRS form 990 is up for all of us to view?"

You referred to this a woman's "private IRS form" later in your comment. FYI, a non-profit corporation's IRS Form 990 is a matter of public record. No one's digging up someone's private records! But sometimes one has to be an "amateur private detective" to find the truth. If we had the transparency and accountability in our church that we should, there wouldn't be a need for any of this.

And there we go again with the "I can't find fault with my brother because I'm a sinner, too" argument. Are we supposed to just sit idly by, contently swallowing and following and chewing our cuds while our leadership rides roughshod over us? Oh, I know. If we don't like it, we're supposed to leave. Maybe in due time, but right now the time's not due.

socwork said...

But the bottom line is that it is not really a disorder. It is just a result of not shepherding a child and using the rod of discipline. Or, it could be the result of the lack of common grace being withheld. Either way, it is sin.

I agree with this, but I would add for the sake of clarity that calling it a "disorder" doesn't mean it's a "disease" or an "I-can't-help-it-I-have-a-disorder" kind of phenomenon. I think "disorder" is better understood as a way to categorize behavior. Sinful behavior? You bet.

I have had my fill of narcissists big time. I got to know their tricks very well.

Me too! (Which is probably why we have that narcissist radar, huh?)

Renewed said...

Finance guy said . . .

Jesus does not call us to step in front of the freight train.


But do you believe He calls us to discuss Larry's "exhibited" behavior with everyone else? How does that help?

Lindon said...

Bonita, The form on the website is public information because it is the 990 for a non profit para church ministry. I can access these forms myself anytime on Charity Navigator. It is required by law that it be public information. Before the internet, all I would have to do is request it.

Yo can go to Charity Navigator and see what Billy Graham makes if you so want to. Any para church ministry is listed.

This is not a bad thing. It is a good thing. These non profits do not pay the same taxes as corporations and operate for the public good. The law is such to make non profits accountable.

gbc lurker said...

Here is a link that might be interesting to some....
Cult of the Narcissist

cjesusnme said...

Nass,

You know, I'm to the point (and stubborn enough) that I'm here to say if they don't like us asking questions, maybe they should all go and find a new congregation who is dumb enough not to ask questions! I'm here to stay and as long as I have concerns, I'm asking questions! So.....Leadership: Either answer our questions, or get used to us knocking on your doors until you do, or.....YOU can leave!

Renewed said...

esther said . . .
Please read Matthew 18 very closely. The situation we are discussing is very public.

I assure you I have read Matthew 18 several times. And while the situation may have been public, some were obviously offended by Larry's statements in the SS class Sunday. I would most definitely go to Larry himself before discussing said behavior over a public forum.

I also know Larry personally. I know him to be a man of the Word, a man of integrity. I saw him break down in tears when all this mess with PW became public. I would hate to see him discussed in a manner that would cause his charater to be questioned.

Lwood said...

THANKS NASS for keeping this blog going.....Without it us little LOST SHEEP would not know a lot about what is going on behind the doors of BBC....Yes they are trying all they can to shut it down.....Keep up the good work...Good to see Karen got moved and ready to get back to blogging. Missed you Karen....

MOM4 said...

I was reading the original post and one of the links referred to the "fence jumping" incident. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I was told that Mark and Lydia Sharpe were not at home, there was not an appointment made and that this visit was considered to be "like an EE visit" by Steve Gaines and his band of men.

I want to know why all four men knocked on the door at the same time - pounded even? I want to know what the children did when they heard this loud banging at their door? They were not expecting visitors, their parents were away, and four grown men were pounding loudly at their door. Were they scared? You bet they were. What did they think when they saw who it was? I want to know what the children did and I would like to know what the expressions on the faces of the men were when the children opened the door??

To date, three of these men have offered a half hearted, semi-apology for this intrusion - but not to the Sharpe family in person. All but John Caldwell, the same man whose wife, Pat, was on the pastor search committee, whose son is NOW on staff, has NEVER even offered an apology to the Sharpe family for his intrusion.

He is also the same man, wth his wife at his side, who laid his hands on Raid Saba at Dr Roger's birthday celebration on 9/12/06 and began to pray loudly for Mr Saba, with his voice raised so all could hear him boastfully praying for this "troublemaker".

This man's character is displayed in his actions. His arrogance and defiance in the face of the congregation is no less than equal to the white washed Pharasees that Jesus condemmed.

By the same token, those who sit idly by and do nothing to resolve this situation with our leadership are portraying the character of Pilate, who thought that by symbolicly washing the blood from his hands would free him from his resonsibility in the death of Jesus. These are our deacons, BFC teachers, officers and committee members.

I stand amazed at the lack of solid leadership at BBC. It is no wonder we are being devoured by these false teachers, we have been thrown to them by the very ones God has placed to protect His church.

Finance Guy said...

come, lord jesus
How is it that Dayna Street's IRS form 990 is up for all of us to view?

Someone at some point in time is going to hit someone with a lawsuit that will ring loudly for years for invading one's privacy for the purpose of making a point in a blog. Aren't facts on a topic enough without acting like amateur private detectives?


There is a specific reason why the IRS requires a public disclosure of an IRS form 990. You wanna know why? In a word, Accountability. Because leaders of non profits would love to operate in darkness, where their stakeholders were oblivious to what is going on. The IRS forces this disclosure in order to , as a good friend of mine says "Keep Honest People Honest".

She would have to sue the IRS, as it's the IRS that forces this "public diclosure". You can find anyone's 990 with just a few mouse clicks.

Honestly, you people should do some reaseach before you speak so high and mighty about things you know nothing of.

Koragg said...

I'm not sure, but I think perhaps all of the bickering and fighting and mudslinging could be the reason the link to this blog was removed from the Saving Bellevue website. It definitely doesn't help our cause when we're all fighting. But that is just speculation on my part.

BTW, not to go off topic here, but please keep my bowling teammates in your prayers. I just found out that she and her fiancee are expecting a baby in May. Please pray that the baby is born healthy and safe :).

sickofthelies said...

Finance guy,

what would we do without you?

:)

Piglet said...

mom4 said

These are our deacons, BFC teachers, officers and committee members.

I stand amazed at the lack of solid leadership at BBC. It is no wonder we are being devoured by these false teachers, we have been thrown to them by the very ones God has placed to protect His church.

Piglet says:

A good word, Mom.

I dare say that if all of these leaders who are dismayed at the abuse of our church's integrity
would step up to the plate that they would be a force to be reckoned with.

Yet,they hide out in fear and watch this horrible nightmare unfold. Where are their strong convictions and their faith in God?

IDC does not need support that hides in the shadows. We need brave men of God.

socwork said...

wlindon,

Thanks for the tip about Charity Navigator - I didn't know that site existed! Very interesting!

Finance Guy said...

renewed
Drop the Larry Ray discussion. Obviously we have different perceptions. I haven't really discussed his behavior, I only was commenting on other people's discussion. I don't know if he said the things he said in the Osborn's BFC last Sunday, but if he did, in my opinion he was out of line. He's free to think whatever he wants to think, but unless he has proof that Dr. Rogers knew about PW, it's irresponsible for someone in his position to speculate like that out loud to a Sunday School Class.

However, the standard disclaimer. JMHO

Rick said...

Hello All,

Just a brief word to introduce myself.

I am a fellow believer and while not a Bellevue member, I consider myself a friend of Bellevue, having visited and been blessed on several occasions.

I have been reading this blog since early December.

First and foremost, I want all of you to know (whether for SG or against him) that I, along with other members of the church I attend, have been praying frequently for you all. We are all of us part of Christ's body, and when one part of the body is hurting, we all feel it. You all have my love and sympathy because the trial you are undergoing at Bellevue.

NBBCOF, thank you for putting an end to the previous topic. It had been exhausted, everything had been said that had to be said, and there was no worth in continuing it.

This is all I have to say at this time. I may post again if I have a question or feel that I can contribute anything of value.

But just know that you are in many prayers. In your trial, it is imperative that you draw closer to the Lord, so as not to become discouraged or bitter.

Keep on the high road, all of you, and do not let this trial overshadow the unassailable reality of Christ's love for each of us.

-Rick

aslansown said...

As for looking at conflicts of interest, would it not be wise to ask why PW was not asked to make a public confession or to at least have a confession read to the church body? What if PW did submit such a letter and it was not placed before the church body? What if PW asked to do this and was denied?

If PW were not allowed to make his confession public as the Scriptures command us, his repentance would be incomplete and his healing only partly begun. What is more, the healing that a true confession would bring for the church body would also be denied.

Dr Gaines claims that he has, or at least wants a Pastor’s heart for Bellevue, but his actions and words in this matter cry out “NOT SO!”

If PW were to be disciplined and his restoration begun as scripture demands (both in Matthew 18 and in Galations 6) then all others involved in this affair would then be required to be held accountable to the same degree.

It is obvious then, that since no discipline or accountability was required of PW, we can logically assume that the leadership of Bellevue is either unwilling to be held accountable or that they hold the Scriptures in such a low regard that they do not consider the written guidance of God the Father even worthy of consideration. At best I might think that they are ignorant of what the Scriptures require of us and in that case they are not qualified to serve as leaders. To say even this would require that I forget that among the trained staff there is a vast accumulation of scriptural knowledge owed to several Doctorates and Masters degrees.

One obvious conclusion can be made. THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR WHAT BELLEVUE AND THE WORLD HAS WITNESSED IN THE PW AFFAIR

all2jesus said...

mom4 said...
I was reading the original post and one of the links referred to the "fence jumping" incident. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I was told that Mark and Lydia Sharpe were not at home, there was not an appointment made and that this visit was considered to be "like an EE visit" by Steve Gaines and his band of men.


It was Mark Dougharty (ok, everybody say this with me, it's DOE-er-tee, not DAW-tree, DAW-ter-ee, etc.) who said "We didn't do anything we wouldn't do on an E.E. visit."

I want to know why all four men knocked on the door at the same time - pounded even? I want to know what the children did when they heard this loud banging at their door?

That's the first I've heard of loud banging. Let's not embellish what's bad enough.

Were they scared? You bet they were. What did they think when they saw who it was?

I've talked to the kids and they were amazed, to say the least. Mark's son is an irrepressible young man, though, and actually invited all four to bring their swimming suits next time! I don't think they were amused.

To date, three of these men have offered a half hearted, semi-apology for this intrusion - but not to the Sharpe family in person.

Slight correction there. Three of them have offered half-hearted apologies to Mark over the phone.

(To those struggling with "Dougharty", take heart: Dr. Rogers never seemed to conquer it either.)

25+yrs@BBC said...

Here are a few important changes that would help restore the trust of many members during these days of crisis in leadership:

I. Pastoral Accountability to the Congregation:
1. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... and any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
2. The giving records of the membership and the ministers on staff at Bellevue should never be for pastoral review in any shape, form, or fashion.
3. Due to concern for potential abuse, no church credit cards.
4. An admission that the pastor should never have suggested and/or recommended that $25k be given to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
5. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members.
6. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
7. Immediate removal from office of ministers guilty of sexual immorality with immediate coordination with the appropriate authorities if any laws have been broken by a minister (no matter how long ago), including thorough investigation of the matter when the minister’s conduct may have affected other church members or their children.
8. Compliance with the laws of Tennessee—within the specified time for compliance as outlined by statute--with regard to requests from membership for information, such as: membership list, financial records, current bylaws, business meeting minutes, and finance committee meeting minutes.

II. Congregational Church governance:
Some of the congregation has awakened to the reality that our church has a set of non-elected "lay-elders," a close knit group of men who manage to be appointed to key positions year after year. The rest of the congregation needs to be awakened.
1. Those that are part of this lay-elder "power block" need to step down from positions of influence for a long time. Bellevue needs “new blood” in these key positions.
2. There needs to be the signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services for the church. These people should not be allowed to serve on committees that review bids for their services.
3. Congregational nomination of and election of all of the Board of Directors as called for in the 1929 bylaws.
4. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. **The current bylaws mention "monthly" business meetings! When were they changed??
5. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
8. Thorough communication with the Congregation for ANY capital project well in advance of any vote. Building prayer buildings or any other type of building should be brought through proper channels to the congregation for prayerful consideration--not coerced "rubber stamping." [By the way, BBC's former leadership taught us quite a bit about prayer. As a matter of fact, I believe all of the current buildings ARE prayer buildings already. BBC's former leadership taught us quite a bit about worship also... but that's another topic].
9. Bellevue needs to reject Warrenism fully and finally.
10. Higher standards should be put in place for the hiring of "ministers." Seminary training should be considered a normal prerequisite.
11. A new policy should be drafted that would govern the formation of future pastor search committees according to traditional Baptist polity. Qualifications for service should be given (in part to avoid potential future conflicts of interest) and future committee members should be nominated and approved by the whole congregation.

III. Treatment of ministers on staff at BBC and members:
1. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members.
2. The end of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members; and the end of signing non-disclosure statements. All ministers who have been pressured or asked to sign such non-disclosure statements should be released from them in writing by BBC! Former staff should be allowed to address the congregation and/or the deacon body either in writing or in person without any fear of reprisal regarding their exit from BBC. The congregation needs to know how their leadership has treated and is treating ministers who leave the service of our Lord through BBC.
3. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.

All in my opinion as usual.

We are to be “providing things honestly in the sight of all men” (Rom. 12:17). Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."

alphasenior said...

Worth a review...........

Narcissism in the Pulpit

New BBC Open Forum said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
25+yrs@BBC said...

Martin Luther refers to Matthew 18

Address to the Christian Nobility
of the German Nation
(1520)

The Romanists have, with great adroitness, drawn three walls round themselves, with which they have hitherto protected themselves, so that no one could reform them, whereby all Christendom has fallen terribly.
First, if pressed by the temporal power, they have affirmed and maintained that the temporal power has no jurisdiction over them, but, on the contrary, that the spiritual power is above the temporal.

Secondly, if it were proposed to admonish them with the Scriptures, they objected that no one may interpret the Scriptures but the Pope.

Thirdly, if they are threatened with a council, they pretend that no one may call a council but the Pope ...

Now may God help us, and give us one of those trumpets that overthrew the walls of Jericho, so that we may blow down these walls of straw and paper, and that we may set free our Christian rods for the chastisement of sin, and expose the craft and deceit of the devil, so that we may amend ourselves by punishment and again obtain God's favour.

.... The third wall falls of itself, as soon as the first two have fallen; for if the Pope acts contrary to the Scriptures, we are bound to stand by the Scriptures to punish and to constrain him, according to Christ's commandment . 'tell it unto the Church' (Matt. xviii. 15-17). . . . If then I am to accuse him before the Church, I must collect the Church together. . . .Therefore when need requires, and the Pope is a cause of offence to Christendom, in these cases whoever can best do so, as a faithful member of the whole body, must do what he can to procure a true free council.

New BBC Open Forum said...

'Night, all!

ezekiel said...

Interesting study of 1 Chron 10-15 this morning. King Jereboam split Israel after King Rehoboam refused to listen to the elders. It was God's will.

10:15 So the king hearkened not unto the people: for the cause was of God, that the LORD might perform his word, which he spake by the hand of Ahijah the Shilonite to Jeroboam the son of Nebat.

Then Rehoboam humbled himself, things turned around. Jereboam led Israel away from God and was punished. Power returned to Judah. Back and forth leadership turned away and then turned back.

The turning back is a critical lesson, and explained in the following verses.

15:1 And the Spirit of God came upon Azariah the son of Oded:

15:2 And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The LORD [is] with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.

15:3 Now for a long season Israel [hath been] without the true God, and without a teaching priest, and without law.

15:4 But when they in their trouble did turn unto the LORD God of Israel, and sought him, he was found of them.

The lesson is clear, if your leaders refuse to follow God then finding another leader is of extreme importance. He doesn't just punish the leader for not following Him, the people as a whole suffered as well.

Turn to Jesus and select leaders that will lead you to Him. You can't get there following a leader that won't follow Him. THE WORD. SCRIPTURE. THE BIBLE.

Karen said...

concernedSBCer said...
Karen,
When a statement is made like that, it has a reverse connotation. If he left "to learn how to worship" what was he doing before? What had he learned at Bellevue? If SG came to BBC to make them "a praying church" what had they been before? A non-praying church? Words mean things and slams come in many different forms. Unfortunately it seems as if arrogance comes in many different forms as well.


I have really struggled with these two issues - what the heck have I been doing all these years if not worshipping and praying? Have I not done it right? I feel as though I've done okay - I've done better since 2005 (when my addictions got under control). I've done more praying lately since Steve Gaines came to BBC - but it's been not he kind of praying he may approve of.

The arrogance comes from the audacity to say something like that to people. My mother has been in the choir since 1977 and here comes this little punk kid (ok, JP is an adult) who tells her (colletively with the choir) that he leared to worship elsewhere. Even if that were true, how arrogant to come out and announce it? Didn't the puffed up ones (Sadducees - you know who I'm referring to; I just can't spell it!) in the Bible pray out loud and show themselves to be so "holy"?

karen

cradleroll said...

I know that the link to the investigative report and personnel report have been removed from the saving bellevue website. Would it be possible for those reports to be posted on this blog. I have read both reports, several times, but apparently I neglected to notice that one (or both) were written in the form of a motion, as has been stated recently here on the blog.

If that is the case, who voted on these reports? I am not aware of any congregational vote. Was the vote taken in these committee meetings...by the committee members?

Just wondering!

MOM4 said...

all2 said....
"To date, three of these men have offered a half hearted, semi-apology for this intrusion - but not to the Sharpe family in person.

Slight correction there. Three of them have offered half-hearted apologies to Mark over the phone."

I would suggest that these men individually make a scheduled visit to the Sharpe home and sit down with the entire family and explain why they did what they did and ask for forgiveness face to face from the entire family, not a superficial, half-hearted phone call to Mark alone. The entire family was torn by this visit, the entire family should be present and face to face with these men, that is if the Sharpes' still want anything to do with them. After all they have been thru, who in their right mind would??

My point was that these 4 men should heed the lesson learned by Rev. Doyal Long and his visit with the Gremillions. That said a lot about his character and I commend him for it.

maybejustmaybe said...

Regarding JP "learning to worship" elsewhere -- in my opinion, this speaks more to his personal journey of faith and growth in the Lord than any intended "slam" of BBC. I have experienced the same thing personally more than once. In the church where I grew up and worshipped until I was 30, which was a wonderful fellowship and where I had many opportunities for growth and service, the "familiar" sometimes lulled me into a sense of spiritual complacency which stunted my growth in the Lord. Once God led me elsewhere, He opened so many doors to me, doors of ministry, an increased thirst for and understanding of His Word, and new relationships. Some of that may have been possible in my home church, but I was thwarting my own spiritual growth and God's plan was to lead me elsewhere in order to put me in a position where I would grow as He wanted me to.

The fact that I wasn't growing in a substantial way in my home church is not a negative toward that church -- it was just that God's plan for me was individual and included taking me to a different place where I could perhaps hear His voice from a different vantage point.

I once heard a pastor (Dr. Norris Smith) say, "God's people should never dig their roots so deeply that, should He want them to go elsewhere, they wouldn't be able to pull up and go." We see that truth proven in so many individuals in the Bible -- from Abraham forward. From the perspective of my own spiritual journey, I'm glad I learned that truth and have gleaned the blessings from following it.

concernedSBCer said...

Karen, I understand what you are saying. You are right; why did that even have to be said. In fact, a favorite saying of mine is "it's all in the presentation." He could have said that he has a legacy to live up to and he's ready to do that and step it up a notch! That way no one wonders "how bad was it before" they are just shooting for a higher level. Or even better, why did anything have to be said at all? He just begins to work with the choir. It really is hard to understand the motives behind such actions.

aslansown said...

This was posted first last night:

As for looking at conflicts of interest, would it not be wise to ask why PW was not asked to make a public confession or to at least have a confession read to the church body? What if PW did submit such a letter and it was not placed before the church body? What if PW asked to do this and was denied?

If PW were not allowed to make his confession public as the Scriptures command us, his repentance would be incomplete and his healing only partly begun. What is more, the healing that a true confession would bring for the church body would also be denied.

Dr Gaines claims that he has, or at least wants a Pastor’s heart for Bellevue, but his actions and words in this matter cry out “NOT SO!”

If PW were to be disciplined and his restoration begun as scripture demands (both in Matthew 18 and in Galations 6) then all others involved in this affair would then be required to be held accountable to the same degree.

It is obvious then, that since no discipline or accountability was required of PW, we can logically assume that the leadership of Bellevue is either unwilling to be held accountable or that they hold the Scriptures in such a low regard that they do not consider the written guidance of God the Father even worthy of consideration. At best I might think that they are ignorant of what the Scriptures require of us and in that case they are not qualified to serve as leaders. To say even this would require that I forget that among the trained staff there is a vast accumulation of scriptural knowledge owed to several Doctorates and Masters degrees.

One obvious conclusion can be made. THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR WHAT BELLEVUE AND THE WORLD HAS WITNESSED IN THE PW AFFAIR

11:35 PM, February 07, 2007

Renewed said...

Finance guy said . . .

renewed
Drop the Larry Ray discussion. Obviously we have different perceptions. I haven't really discussed his behavior, I only was commenting on other people's discussion. I don't know if he said the things he said in the Osborn's BFC last Sunday, but if he did, in my opinion he was out of line. He's free to think whatever he wants to think, but unless he has proof that Dr. Rogers knew about PW, it's irresponsible for someone in his position to speculate like that out loud to a Sunday School Class.


Sure thing Finance Guy. I'll drop it. I was of the assumption you actually heard Larry yourself, not that you were repeating second hand knowledge.

Renewed

FallethNtheDitch said...

"We are asking for the names of all Committees, Councils and Advisory Boards as well as assigned staff members not listed in the Lay Ministries Handbook for the past three years and their minutes, including dates of their term of office beginning and ending.. If there are assigned staff members or committees over the Executive Missions Committee, or Finance Committee please submit these for the past three years. Please provide a list of all current and past ad-hoc committees as well as the Personal Committees and Development Council Members and minutes not listed in the Committee Handbook titled Lay Ministries published each year for the 2005-2007. Please include any governing documents pertaining these committees or councils."Have they complied with this Yet?
Again notice how the same names always show up on these self serving committees.How do you spell H-I-J-A-C-K-I-N-G....? How do you spell F-L-E-E-C-E-I-N-G The
Flock?How do you spell STEVE GAINES CREFLOW DOLLAR BINNY HINN OR JAN CROUCH ON TBN?ITS SPELLED Lucrative TV DEALS.Why was DAVID PURDUE BOUNCING back and forth talking to business cronies at the second communcations meetings?I beleive Steve Gaines is in like flynn with these men to start a nationwide Tv Deal.They will hire David Coombs OR David Lettermen will go to any extremes will hire gestapo guards to the halls of Bellevue will have members tailed and followed in the halls of Bellevue.( if they consider in their way.)Will jump fences, lie deceive,Spin their theology,pay well those who have chosen to follow blindly(staff members who have chosen to follow a man rather than God" not trusting God to take care of them)Preach Love and unity and forgiveness as long as it serves their hidden agenda.Don"t worry.I love the way Dr.Rodgers use to saY "The Bible says....Reading my Bible I found a passage I would like to share with you that describes this self serving agenda.Jeremiah 23:1 & 2. "Woe unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture!Therefore thus saith the lord God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people;Ye have scatered my flock,and have driven them away,and not visited them:behold I will visit upon you the evil of your doings,saith the Lord.
False ordanations of self serving men...Jeremiah 23:21 "I have not sent these prophets,yet they ran:I have not spoken to them,yet they prophesied.But if they had stood in my counsel,and had caused my people to hear my words ,then they should have turned them from their evil way,and from the evil of their doings".God is not mocked these self serving men will be stopped by God"s hand and his timing.He still reigns and will expose evil to his sheep as he is still doing in our church...Stand!

KellyS said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
socwork said...

Good morning. Here's an interesting article by Bob DeWaay on the "Believer's Call to Judge." It's part one of a two part series, but part two is not yet out.

Click here

ezekiel said...

Some more on 2 Chron 10-15:

Jereboam was given 10 tribes by God and look what he did with them. He kicked out all the Levites and Priests, they went back to Judah. Then Jereboam appointed his own priests. The KJV uses “ordained”. Does this sound anything like the past 18 months at BBC? How many ministers have left? How many common people are we trying to ordain? (Mr. Coombs)? Wasn’t there a mention of a ”prayer chapel” somewhere? Could that have been King Gaines’s “house of high places”

2 Chron 11:15 and he appointed him priests for the high places, and for the he-goats, and for the calves which he had made.

1 Kings 12:31 And he made houses of high places, and made priests from among all the people, that were not of the sons of Levi.


If the kingdom is the “body”, we can say that there are many would be kings within the “body” making the same mistakes that we see in the OT.
Repent for the Kingdom is at hand!

New BBC Open Forum said...

Here but for the grace of God goes Bellevue....

Karen said...

MJM,

I understand about what JP was talking about and that's fine - if it's a personal journey, then keep it personal. I find it distasteful to make an announcement to the choir he leads that he didn't worship at BBC before - like he could really teach them something. It's in the presentation. Like on an old Cosby show episode: "imagine your favorite dinner being served to you; now imagine it being served to you on a garbage can lid - not so appetizing presented that way, huh?"

I really don't have a problem with what was said - it's the way it was presented. Is this too persnickity on my part or is a "testing of the Spirit" that we as Christians are instructed to do.

karen

MOM4 said...

all2 said...
mom4 said....
"I want to know why all four men knocked on the door at the same time - pounded even? I want to know what the children did when they heard this loud banging at their door?

That's the first I've heard of loud banging. Let's not embellish what's bad enough.

Were they scared? You bet they were. What did they think when they saw who it was?

I've talked to the kids and they were amazed, to say the least. Mark's son is an irrepressible young man, though, and actually invited all four to bring their swimming suits next time! I don't think they were amused."

I stand corrected,I have verified the incident and the men did NOT bang on the door.

When Mark's son answered the door, Chuck Taylor said "Where's your dad at?", (a bit confrontational I would think)
Mark's son responded with nervous chatter and politely answered their questions. The last thing said was by John Caldwell as he was walking off - he told Mark's son to "get that gate opened". The men then walked down to the gate and were jumping up and down on the cable trying to get the gate to open faster. Go figure...

Renewed said...

maybejustmaybe said...
Regarding JP "learning to worship" elsewhere -- in my opinion, this speaks more to his personal journey of faith and growth in the Lord than any intended "slam" of BBC.


MJM,this is a great word. I have also had this same opinion. I know from personal experience that my first reaction to what someone says is not always the right reaction. I can so easily take offense when none was intended.

Renewed

New BBC Open Forum said...

cradleroll, et al.,

I think this is what you were looking for.

Ed_T said...

Let's add a little humor to the discussion. A couple of them could be humorous takes on things at BBC.

WARNING: The links below are SATIRICAL takes on church life done by Christians.

I hear BBC is compiling their list and has volunteered to sponsor the local chapter: ‘WolfWarning’ keeps pastors ahead of church troublemakers

For you fans of the KJV, you might want one of these:
King James translation device brings faithful to TV age

Nirvana in the "Seeker-sensitive" church movement

The next time you hear the phrase "relevant" used in a church context (such as a "relevant message") or hear about a "non-threatening environment, think of these:
Edgy church breaks old rules, insists on new ones or N.C. pastor named Most Relevant

Ever known one of these types? Man asked to quite repeating God's name in prayer

There's one absolutely hysterical spoof of "Christian marketing". I won't post the link here as it is "on the edge", but if you ever roll your eyes when you hear the term "Christian" prefacing the latest fad (do you know about the "Left Behind" PC video game?), then go to larknews.com and select March 2004 from the Archives drop-down box. Read the "story" about the novel approach a church took to deal with some growth problems. Just be sure to read 'till the end. There's a bit in the next-to-last paragraph that will have you rolling in the floor laughing. (Karen M, should you go in search of this link, please put down your soda and swallow before reading!)

One of my favorite bits comes from their Field Guide to Evangelicals and Their Habitat. You might be an evangelical if you idea of Heaven is a "Republican gated community." :)

cradleroll said...

Thanks new bbc open forum.

I re-read the investigative report and what I read were multiple recommendations for future implementation. There was a recommendation to the personnel committee regarding PW's dismissal.

I was unable to open the personnel committee recommendation as I was not an "authorized user" at the Bellevue website. I am wondering IF the personnel committee "moved" on the recommendation of the investigative comm. to dismiss PW. Can you link me to the personnel comm. report?

Thanks

maybejustmaybe said...

Renewed -- thank you. : )

New BBC Open Forum said...

cradleroll,

Try this.

You folks need to learn the art of Googling! :-)

no.rumors.please said...

I know for a FACT that PW did submit a statement and ask for it to be read.

I was under the impression that it would be read.

Someone needs to ask David Coombs about that.

aslansown said...

no rumors please said:
I know for a FACT that PW did submit a statement and ask for it to be read.

I was under the impression that it would be read.

Someone needs to ask David Coombs about that.


Do you know for a fact what reason was given for not reading the statement?(no sarcasm intended)

imaresistor said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
I love my church said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
imaresistor said...

Where are the Elders Who Guard the Flock right here by Bob DeWaay.

Another great one. Please read it. It is relevant.

Finance Guy said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
facts_only_please said...

This is not a conflict of interest posting, but I saw something in today’s local newspaper that was interesting. In the Commercial Appeal, Section B (Local News: Bartlett, Cordova, Arlington, Lakeland and N.W. Fayette County Section), Page B5, there is a write-up in the “Community Briefs” section which reads as follows:

“Passion Play auditions
Auditions for the 2007 Memphis Passion Play will be Friday at 6:30p.m. and Saturday at 9:30 a.m. in the Adult Choir Room at Bellevue Baptist Church in Cordova. Casting for singing and speaking parts for adults of various ages and one 8- to 12-year-old girl and a speaking-only part for one 8- to 12-year-old boy will be held. For more information, call 347-2000.”

Guess our leaders felt the need to advertise?

imaresistor said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
LibertyInChrist said...

MEDIATION, ARBITRATION, OR REPENTANCE AND RESTITUTION

I would caution all of you to not pursue legal mediation or arbitration. This might be a good model for a Hatfields vs. the McCoys, and has the added value of being legally binding and enforceable. But think about it. Would you conduct mediation between a bank robber and a bank teller, or the bank robber and the depositers of that bank. Of course, this would be absurd. No, Gaines and his collaborators must repent, make financial records public, and make restitution. But short of this miracle happening, a civil law suit would secure compensatory and punitive damages for the victims...and it is enforceable!

maybejustmaybe said...

Off topic, but can't help myself. Ima, I'm a GWTW fan -- Hattie McDaniel played Mammy and the line she spoke so famously was, "It ain't fit'n, Cap'n Butler, it just ain't fit'n! It ain't fit'n!"

concernedSBCer said...

Facts: I would think there is enough talent at Bellevue to fill any parts.

imaresistor said...

maybejustmaybe said...
"Off topic, but can't help myself. Ima, I'm a GWTW fan -- Hattie McDaniel played Mammy and the line she spoke so famously was, "It ain't fit'n, Cap'n Butler, it just ain't fit'n! It ain't fit'n!""

Right! The movie was brilliant! There has not been one of the same caliber since. IMHO (However, there have been some good ones.)

I suppose it is alright to get off topic every now and then.

Esther said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
socwork said...

So... it is starting to feel like nothing more is going to come from this investigation. Is this just a feeling? Or is there some fact behind this feeling?

Each day that passes since the report from the investigation committee, with no consequences (other than the firing of PW of course), it seems less likely that anyone is going to stand up and take some responsibility for less than stellar behavior.

Anyone have any insight here?

all2jesus said...

To those in leadership who would rather be right than do right (we know who they are):

“I’d sooner live among people who don’t cheat at cards than among people who are earnest about not cheating at cards.” -- C. S. Lewis

Esther said...

When we pray to be sanctified, are we prepared to face the standard of these verses? We take the term sanctification much too lightly. Are we prepared for what sanctification will cost? It will cost an intense narrowing of all our interests on earth, and an immense broadening of all our interests in God. Sanctification means intense concentration on God’s point of view. It means every power of body, soul and spirit chained and kept for God’s purpose only. Are we prepared for God to do in us all that He separated us for? And then after His work is done in us, are we prepared to separate ourselves to God even as Jesus did? “For their sakes I sanctify Myself.”

Oswald Chambers

New BBC Open Forum said...

a2j,

I passed your message along.

noname said...

Esther said...

"Why didn't the investigative team interview ___ ___? "

Are you serious?

8:16 PM, February 08, 2007


NBBCOF,

Please delete this post or edit it at the least because of the name of Paul's son is on it. and maybe it will be good if you would be willing to show your love to Paul's son by at the opening of each of these posting to say not to put Paul's son name or it will be deleted.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Earlier comment edited to remove name...

I love my church said...

No Rumors,

Why didn't the investigative team interview PW's son?

If their goal was to uncover the truth, wouldn't his explanation of the facts be crucial?

5:16 PM, February 08, 2007

New BBC Open Forum said...

noname,

Thank you. That one slipped past me.

NBBCOF

noname said...

NBBCOF,

Thank-you for the delete.

You are nice.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Okay, I got it now, everyone! Thank you!

You can stop throwing erasers at NASS!

New BBC Open Forum said...

Thank you all for your diligence.

Just a reminder to everyone since the topic drifted back to the PW issue tonight... as a courtesy to the family, please do not mention any of his family members by name.

NBBCOF

New BBC Open Forum said...

noname,

Interesting suggestion you sent, but most people know the rules and abide by them. I don't think it warrants a whole topic. Thanks anyway! Keep those suggestions coming in.

NBBCOF

sickofthelies said...

soc said:

Each day that passes since the report from the investigation committee, with no consequences (other than the firing of PW of course), it seems less likely that anyone is going to stand up and take some responsibility for less than stellar behavior

SOTL says:

I'm not holding my breath for anyone to suffer any consequences for any of this. That's just not the way it's done anymore. We are in a new era. Sins are just mistakes.

"Nothin to see here folks,move along"

New BBC Open Forum said...

Good night, sheeps.

David Brown said...

Dear brothers and sisters: My heart has been troubled this week by many rummors that I have been hearing. This needs to stop. Let me give you an example of just one. Because someone thought that PW might be already employed by another church, a wave of rummors started.

Now this innoncent church has been dragged onto this blog. They have done absolutely nothing wrong but because they are a PDL church some have so fit to make fun of them. There should have NEVER been mention here of this church.

That is the reason we have many different demoninations, so we do have a chance to find a church we feel comfortable with. I repeat this particular church has not done one thing to warrant mention on this blog or be in the middle of a bunch of rummors.

When someone becomes aware of an issue, deal with it. Just putting out parts of and not addressing it only causes more harm. It just adds to the rummor and suddenly it has taken on a life of its own. And your creditability is at risk too.

Yes we must continue to seek truth and transparency; but we can't do it with a bunch of rummors.

I love you I know I have just upset some people. But there was no reason for this innocent church to have be mentioned. And then to have the things said about it.

David Brown

New BBC Open Forum said...

David,

You're correct that the name of the church was irrelevant, but it was a rumor that was taking on a life of its own and in my opinion needed to be addressed. If I had not been moderating comments the misinformation, including the name of the church, would have gotten out earlier and in one case would have been presented as fact, not just a question. Sometimes in my zeal to present the truth, more is said than necessary. My apologies to the church in question for dragging their name into this. I have deleted all comments which related to the church in question.

Let's leave it at this:

"I just want to dispel a rumor I've heard from a couple of sources today. It was rumored that PW had been hired as education minister by a church in a town not far from Memphis. This isn't true. Apparently he's been visiting there but hasn't joined nor has he been hired in any capacity by the church. Just wanted to nip that rumor in the bud before it gained any traction."

1:31 AM, February 08, 2007

all2jesus said...

The gentle flurries floating past my window inspired me to do a little study. I thought I'd share a few delights.
______________________
Job 37:5-6
God thunders marvelously with His voice;
He does great things which we cannot comprehend.
For He says to the snow, ‘Fall on the earth’;
Likewise to the gentle rain and the heavy rain of His strength.
______________________
Psalm 147:15-17
He sends out His command to the earth;
His word runs very swiftly.
He gives snow like wool;
He scatters the frost like ashes;
He casts out His hail like morsels;
Who can stand before His cold?
______________________
Psalm 148:7-8
Praise the LORD from the earth,
You great sea creatures and all the depths;
Fire and hail, snow and clouds;
Stormy wind, fulfilling His word;
______________________
Psalm 51:7
Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
______________________
Isaiah 1:18
“ Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the LORD,

“ Though your sins are like scarlet,
They shall be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They shall be as wool.
______________________
Daniel 7:9a
“ I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
______________________
Mark 9:2-3
Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John, and led them up on a high mountain apart by themselves; and He was transfigured before them.
His clothes became shining, exceedingly white, like snow, such as no launderer on earth can whiten them.

Blessings to all.

New BBC Open Forum said...

ICU nurse,

Hang on! It's coming in a new topic heading.

socwork said...
This comment has been removed by the author.