Please read the following direct quotes from the Investigative Team:
"One witness would not agree to be interviewed except in a group setting. Ultimately, the Team felt that asking the questions it wished to ask could not be done properly and confidentially in such a group setting, and therefore, the Team decided not to interview this individual. Although the individual was a significant witness, the Team felt that the information this witness might have offered basically was corroborative of what other witnesses had stated. The absence of this interview was not a problem for the investigation."
"The first to come forward with any concerns about Paul Williams being allowed to work on the staff at Bellevue Baptist Church was Paul's son and two of his son's friends who came to Pastor Gaines on December 7, 2006."
"Although there is no excuse, there is an explanation which leads to the recommendation noted above. The Pastor stated that he had never dealt with an incident of this type before. Further, there were no policies and procedures in place that he had been trained to follow. In the past, the circle of information on any problems of a sensitive nature in the church was kept very tight to protect the families of the individuals and to protect the church from embarrassment. There has been a feeling that policy and procedures of this type were more suitable for the world than for the church. This feeling is not only found in Bellevue Baptist Church, but also is prevalent across churches in general. The events relating to the Paul Williams issue have vividly brought to light the need for change."
ICU REPORT:
1. The unidentified "significant witness" mentioned was the most significant witness.
2. While the "group setting" mentioned would not have included legal counsel, it would have included all parties with firsthand information. This was to provide the church with information they needed before starting the "official" internal investigation. It would also have provided the opportunity to request that Steve Gaines make it clear in any subsequent public statement that the previous administration had no knowledge of the situation and to try to lessen the negative effect the announcement would have on the Williams family. This request was denied.
3. The unidentified "significant witness" would have offered information that was NOT corroborative of what other witnesses stated and would have changed the context of the committee's report. Significant information was provided in a meeting on January 11, 2007 which was not included in the report.
4. The December 7, 2006 date refers to the date of an actual meeting in which this issue was finally discussed, but the implication in the December 17th announcement to the congregation was that Steve Gaines was unaware until just a couple of weeks before that there were any "unresolved" issues remaining. In reality, this had been brought to Steve Gaines' attention several weeks prior to this meeting, as requests for a meeting had been made (and apparently denied) for some time prior to December 7th.
5. The "policies and procedures" as mandated by Scripture are sufficient to provide guidance to even the most inexperienced layman and should certainly have been sufficient for a Pastor with a Doctorate in Theology.
6. The "circle of information on any problems of a sensitive nature in the church" is apparently tighter now than it has ever been.
7. The idea that this tight circle was designed "to protect the families of the individuals and to protect the church from embarrassment" could not be a more inaccurate statement of fact. The clear intent has been to protect the administration and leadership.
8. The events that have "vividly brought to light the need for change" have to date produced absolutely no change and in fact continually magnify the resistance to any change relating to transparency.
--ICU Nurse
Thanks to "ICU Nurse" for these comments which inspired this topic idea. Some editing by NBBCOF.
Both reports are available here.
525 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 525 Newer› Newest»ezekiel said...
Did anyone catch the program on the Free Masons last night on discovery channel?
Supposedly their focus is Bible centered as well. Dates back to builders of the Temple.
4:49 PM, February 12, 2007
Free Masons are a cult that like to point to the Bible while not allowing Jesus' name to be brought into any dialogue. This cult should be blotted out never to revive again.
The Bible tells us to call no man master but the leader of the lodge is called the worshipful master.
There are other mch worse reasons NOT to be involved in free masonry.
gmommylv said
Jamie and Dana both were very clear that Jamie wanted to be in a group(like the Gaithers)and Jim seemed to be hard on Jamie from their prospective at the time because he wanted him to buckle down and learn and grow as a minister of music and that caused some conflict.
Piglet says:
Well, that makes a lot of sense. I always thought Jamie was a grand performer but he is a lousy excuse for a choir director. It's sad that the arrogance of SG rubbed off on him at Gardendale. I wonder if even Jamie is starting to notice how inept SG is to lead BBC. After all, he has been around before to see it done right.
You'd think that most of those defending SG would be worn out and sick of this by now. Pride can keep people from admitting even the most obvious things but are they willing to go to court for him? Or are they wiiling to go down WITH him? Time will tell.
I have always liked Jamie. I think he would be TERRIFIC in a thing like the Gaithers. I am not in the choir, so I cannot comment on his ability there. I'm also not very musically inclined, so I can't speak to that either. But I do think that he enjoys singing for The Lord. I am praying for him. He is a good and decent person, and I would like to think that he would do the right thing.
Piglet, I'm with you. By now, I would think that it would be embarassing to continue to follow SG blindly. I would be too embarassed to defend him still. In the depths of my being, there is nothing there that I can defend and make it sound rational. I am praying for him, and I am very sorry for him, but enough is enough. HIs arrogance has caught up with him. I would LOVE to see full repentance, and would LOVE to see him start all over with committees and committee heads and the board of directors and open up everything for full transparency. Why can't he do that? What is SO wrong with asking for that? Does anyone know? Can anyone tell me? I feel like we are in the twighlight zone.
Piglet said...
...
I always thought Jamie was a grand performer but he is a lousy excuse for a choir director.
May we know your credentials that give you standng to make such a statement?
MOM4 said...
truthseeker said...
"About choir. There have never been a connection made between Jamie and the choir. He does not seem to be nurturing toward the choir at all. He comes up at the last minute to gives his LOUD instructions right perform we come out to sing."
It sounds as if this person does not attend Wednesday evening rehearsals at all, if indeed this person, whoever he/she is, is in the choir. Considering that Jamie spends hours on Wednesday nights "nurturing the choir," the statement it unfounded.
Now, I can understand that someone who only makes it to choir on Sunday mornings might have such a perception, but it is based on incomplete information.
Jamie and Steve are very similar - Jamie is all about Jamie
A pathetic personal disparagement--surely that isn't all you have, is it?
- the choir is just his back up singers. All you can hear on the microphone is Jamie and the rest of you are background for The Jamie Show.
Even when he's directing those of us in the choir? From the loft, I can't hear him directing and singing simultaneously. Perhaps that's because I'm too busy being "background"?
Jon Tyner is a highly educated young man who would have LOVED to have been mentored by Jim Whitmire and could easily step into his shoes when Dr Whitmire DECIDED to retire on his own time table.
And someone who is a good friend to Jamie Parker. Why don't you tell him how you feel about Jamie face-to-face?
I was told the other day that we will NEVER hear "Send Out Thy Light" again.
By whom?
I guess that means they will be scratching it off the front of the building soon.
Oh, we heard it here first!
Lord willing, perhaps someday we will have a real choir again.
And may we know your credentials that give you standing to make such a statement?
--Mike
Mike,
We knew you would come riding in on your big white horse to save the day! LOL
Ummmm....can you define this? "nurturing the choir,"
observer,
Frankly, you don't know what you're talking about. I'm not "desperate" for anything. With all due respect, it's really none of your business why I chose to turn comment moderation on or off, but if you must know, the reason I left comment moderation off was because I had to be away from my computer last night and all day today, so since people were finally behaving themselves, I felt comfortable leaving it off. Otherwise, I would have turned it over to a trusted colleague to moderate in my absence.
But really, why do you care? Do you not have anything better to do than monitor this "hate-filled blog" and antagonize people? And since there are just a handful of us "dissenters" anyway, why don't you just leave us alone to wallow in the mud of our deception? Surely you know what happens when one rolls around in the mud with pigs (and piglets), don't you? (Don't feel the need to answer that. It was a rhetorical question.)
NBBCOF
Mikie,
I was wondering what had happened to your 2 cents worth.
Thanks!
(and for the record - I am NOT in the choir and I did NOT make the statements about Jamie coming in and Loudly giving instructions, but I am in the congregation and it is ALL about Jamie when he is the only one you can hear! If you are such a good friend of his, tell him to turn down his mike and let us hear ALL of the choir.)
First, let me say that this post is one of frustration, so please have some latitude in your understandings.
libertyinChrist wrote (Feb 12; 1:03pm) a lengthy essay on liability insurance and his supposition of how the senior staff were working to cover-up the PW situation. May I suggest that if one were to read this without much intellectual discernment that one could come to the conclusion that there were indeed suspected molestations within Bellevue and the staff was working to cover up to avoid costly liability claims. Nothing could be further from the truth yet libertyinChrist takes time to wrote such a diatribe of garbage on this blog. It shows no concern nor love for our church or a love for Christ’s children to post in such an irresponsible way. Why may I ask would you, libertyinChrist, post something of this nature? Is this just meant to be inflammatory?
Informedatbbc is concerned about David Coombs becoming an ordained minister. So where were you when Bro. Phil Newberry, Bro. Bob Sorrell, and Bro. Mark were ordained? I would be willing to make an assumption here. You don’t know David Coombs. If you did, you would know that David has spend his life as a testament to Christ’s dying for him. David has more integrity than anyone I know. Did you ever wonder why David took a position on staff? He certainly doesn’t need the money, he has plenty. But he got it the old fashioned way, through hard work. David has a love for Christ and a love for Bellevue. David is a very intellectual person who knows Scriptures extremely well. He has preached in front of hundreds on numerous mission trips. By the way David is already called to be a minister as are you and I.. We are called to minister to others. The ordination is to place David is a position of one who is serving full time in the ministry. I cannot think of one more qualified than David Coombs.
Yes, I am frustrated that people that have limited knowledge of others or the facts continue to post so much uninformed information. Or should we call it what it really is….gossip! And we know what the Scripture says about this. Well, for many of you, probably not!
jmo,
I know you mentioned that you're posting out of frustration, but there is really no excuse for statements like this:
And we know what the Scripture says about this. Well, for many of you, probably not!
There is nothing edifying about that. In fact, it's insulting. What good did you hope would come from that statement? If this blog is all about gossip, then perhaps you shouldn't be partaking in the gossip by reading it?
James 1.19
Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger;
WWJD said...
Mike,
We knew you would come riding in on your big white horse to save the day! LOL
Whoever you are, I would encourage you to re-read your last post in light of the acronym/pseudonym you use.
Ummmm....can you define this? "nurturing the choir,"
It's someone else's phrase--please ask whoever used it to define it, because in that individual's mind, it wouldn't seem to mean developing the song service and teaching the choir, sharing his heart with the choir... you know, all the things ministers of music do. Things that Jamie does. Things that would normally fall into the category of "nurturing the choir."
New BBC Open Forum said...
observer,
Frankly, you don't know what you're talking about. I'm not "desperate" for anything. With all due respect, it's really none of your business why I chose to turn comment moderation on or off, but if you must know, the reason I left comment moderation off was because I had to be away from my computer last night and all day today, so since people were finally behaving themselves, I felt comfortable leaving it off. Otherwise, I would have turned it over to a trusted colleague to moderate in my absence.
Since I've asked via e-mail and not received a response, your statement prompts another question. Why were some comments posted during your "moderation" and some not?
And I'm not just talking about posts from "banned" individuals.
But really, why do you care? Do you not have anything better to do than monitor this "hate-filled blog" and antagonize people? And since there are just a handful of us "dissenters" anyway, why don't you just leave us alone to wallow in the mud of our deception? Surely you know what happens when one rolls around in the mud with pigs (and piglets), don't you?
One should take the precaution of putting on one's waders first. Particularly if one cares for the "pigs and piglets," and wants the best for them, one is compelled to spend time with them, working for their benefit.
(Don't feel the need to answer that. It was a rhetorical question.)
Oh, sorry... :)
MOM4 said...
Mikie,
I was wondering what had happened to your 2 cents worth.
Thanks!
Only too happy to oblige! :)
(and for the record - I am NOT in the choir and I did NOT make the statements about Jamie coming in and Loudly giving instructions,
Since they're a skewed version of part of the truth masquerading as all of the truth, I'm glad to hear it--for the record.
but I am in the congregation and it is ALL about Jamie when he is the only one you can hear!
On those days when I sit in the congregation (when my voice is shot, or for other compelling reasons), I honestly don't hear what you're hearing.
Now, in fairness, I tend to sit close, off to one side. My "veteran broadcaster" ears might, indeed, hear what you're hearing were I to sit where you're sitting. I'll have to listen more closely to a televised service; if the blend's off, I doubt seriously that a) Jamie insisted he stand out, or b) that anyone responsible for house sound is mixing it that way on purpose.
Time passes...
And I've had a chance to look at a service on the DVR, the service which aired this past Sunday. Quite to the contrary of the suggestions made, my wife and I (we both have "veteran broadcaster" ears) both agree that the mix is anything but "Jamie-heavy," instead blending well the praise team, the choir, and Jamie. If anything, Jamie's mic is a bit soft!
Again, though, you may be hearing something different where you sit. Or, perhaps the mix that day was atypical.
Interesting, though. Even beyond the mix early on, the special music was one of my all-time favorite songs, "The Majesty and Glory of Your Name." If you didn't record that service, see if you can get the audio recording--the choir sounded very good.
Bet that "nurturing" had something to do with it.
If you are such a good friend of his, tell him to turn down his mike and let us hear ALL of the choir.)
Since I am his friend, and have been for a number of years, I wouldn't hesitate to talk to him about such a thing--if it were a problem.
I'll check back later to see if we've gotten credentials from those earlier posters.
--Mike
just my opinion says:
I cannot think of one more qualified than David Coombs.
SOTL says:
OHHHHHH PUHLEEEEEZE
You want some facts? I'll give them to you:
1) David Coombs had my "PERSONAL" file, in his office...Is he a part of the counseling office? I DON"T THINK SO!!!! Why was it that HE was allowed to see MY file? Why was MY PERSONAL file assigned to David Coombs?
2) When I told MR. Coombs on Sunday, Jan. 28, that " Pedophilia thrives in silence" he laughed in my face...this, right after he stepped down from the podium from reading the ridiculous set of half truths known as the ' internal investigation'.
3) When I was persuaded to go back down there and confront him, with a witness to the incident, 5 minutes later, he claimed that he had never seen me, never spoken to me.
4) He was seen at Jim & Nicks( less than a mile from BBC) with a bottle of wine on his table. Was he not concerned with causing someone else to stumble? After all, he IS the associate pastor, for heaven's sakes.
5) He told Dottie Coombs, his former sister in law that we are all slaves in bondage and that women do not have the right not to be physically hurt by their husbands.
I might have questioned this last one except that I saw his cruelty when he laughed in my face and then denied it. He obviously has little, if any, respect for women.
And you think this man is qualified for the ministry? Well, maybe at BBC these days he is, but that's the ONLY place that he would be qualified. It seems that the meanest and the cruelest are the ones that work their way up the ladder to success the fastest at BBC these days.
Ordaining David Coombs into the ministry is a TRAVESTY.
just my opinion said:
"You don’t know David Coombs. If you did, you would know that David has spend his life as a testament to Christ’s dying for him. David has more integrity than anyone I know."
*******
If David Coombs has more integrity than anyone you know, then I feel sorry for you. He has broken the law by not giving Josh Manning a list of Bellevue members when all the criteria had been met for the list to be given. Apparently, you are on the staff of Bellevue, too, if you deem this as acceptable behavior. David Coombs has now proven himself in his initiation into the BBC "gang" by law-breaking. Go on. Jump me with your loving Christian spirit because the "truth" hurts. The claim I have made of his denying Josh Manning is documented and is not hearsay. It is a FACT.
Yeah, I forgot about the " I don't care what the Tenn. law says" from David Coombs.
Thanks, Huldah, for making that #6 on my list.
Ordaining David Coombs is not just a bad idea, it is a TRAVESTY.
mike bratton wrote:
"Why were some comments posted during your "moderation" and some not?"
I'm not sure, Mike. Why don't you post every comment that's posted to your blog? I know for a fact that you don't, but frankly, I couldn't care less why you don't. Why are people with their own blogs so concerned with how I oversee this one? I haven't looked at yours in ages, and I've never commented there.
But if you must know, I didn't realize I could moderate comments from the "dashboard" on Blogger (an oversight on my part) until a couple of days later, and when Yahoo! mail stopped working (I've received about half a dozen e-mails at that address since Thursday), I wasn't getting the notifications in my mailbox. Perhaps I missed the comment(s) to which you refer because I don't recall deleting but 2 or 3 besides those from hewhomustnotbenamed.
Hudlah,
Seems as though law breaking is the FIRST and most important part of being ordained. Perhaps they told him that if he would stand up there and use his " credibility" to present that web of lies to us on Jan. 28, they would ordain him as a reward.
Now he just needs to find a fence to climb.
just my opinion said:
"Yes, I am frustrated that people that have limited knowledge of others or the facts continue to post so much uninformed information. Or should we call it what it really is….gossip! And we know what the Scripture says about this. Well, for many of you, probably not!"
*******
Dr. Rogers always said that those who listen to gossip should be strung up by their ears, and those who gossip should be hung up by their tongues.
So, if you think that what we are discussing on here is all gossip and not fact, then don't you think you should skedaddle--and quickly?
Mike,
Why do you come here and tell NASS how to run this site? Don't you stay busy enough with yours? I guess not!
sickofthelies,
You are not going to believe this, but when I posted what you called #6 on the list, I had no idea what you had posted just ahead of me. What does that tell you? :}
Dee
Huldah,
Seems like we are getting some help :)
nur·ture
1. to feed and protect: to nurture one's offspring.
2. to support and encourage, as during the period of training or development; foster: to nurture promising musicians.
3. to bring up; train; educate.
–noun
4. rearing, upbringing, training, education, or the like.
5. development: the nurture of young artists.
6. something that nourishes; nourishment; food.
jmo wrote: "May I suggest that if one were to read this without much intellectual discernment that one could come to the conclusion that there were indeed suspected molestations within Bellevue and the staff was working to cover up to avoid costly liability claims. Nothing could be further from the truth yet libertyinChrist takes time to wrote such a diatribe of garbage on this blog. It shows no concern nor love for our church or a love for Christ’s children to post in such an irresponsible way. Why may I ask would you, libertyinChrist, post something of this nature? Is this just meant to be inflammatory?"
There was a molestation the staff covered up. That is a fact. Some people on staff knew 17 years ago and some knew for 7 months and did NOTHING. That is a liability whether you see it or not. If the victim decided to sue, BBC could be in big fat trouble. It does not matter if there was 1victim or 20. Which part of this do you not understand? Are you being willfully ignorant? Or just have no intellectual discernment?
Sorry, but you people who choose to be blind are very frustrating. You may not like libertyinChrist and even I have had some disagreements with him but on this one he has a point. Your leaders are liable for keeping PW on staff knowing this. PW is a CRIMINAL. Which part of that do you not get?
mike bratton wrote:
"Since I've asked via e-mail and not received a response, your statement prompts another question."
I'm sorry, I didn't get an e-mail from you. I can't answer what I don't see! (I'll probably regret this), but what was your original question?
mom4,
I don't know if you're out there still, but I had deleted the letter from Dr. Rogers the day after I put it on the thread. It's just pretty special to me, and I didn't want to leave "him" up there for the dirty old world to see for longer than was necessary to clarify an issue. I used to show my email, but I took it off a couple of weeks ago. It looks as though "observer" is not on here now; but, if necessary, I will put it back on here. Sometimes, though, I don't think it matters what we do, people are still not going to believe because they don't have the eyes to see or the ears to hear.
Observer, in case you are reading this, mom4 spoke the truth to you. I do indeed have the letter and it has been witnessed by many. If you have evidence of what you are alleging, I would welcome seeing it. Otherwise, I would have to say without a stutter or a stammer that what mom4 spoke about Dr. Rogers having NOT chosen Steve Gaines is the TRUTH. Listen carefully. IT IS A FACT according to the personal letter I own and which can be verified my even more folks than the ones who have already seen it. Factual--not gossipy.
Dee
BTW memphis and sickofthelies,
It's Janice "Edmiston", and not Janice "Rogers". :-)
There is something that I think we all need to be aware of concerning taping conversations without the participant’s knowledge.
I have heard of phone systems that have the capability of recording the conversation in one room and piping it into any number of other rooms without the occupants of that room having knowledge of the recording. This recording would have no value as far as prosecuting anyone, but it could have the effect of allowing someone or some ones to know where you stand on a certain issue or could allow them to know some private information that you are sharing with a trusted friend or co-worker. This would, in my opinion be highly illegal and could result in some serious consequences if a person got caught with the illegal recording, but stranger things have happened in the not to distant past.
The incident above was related to me about a man who was in his office alone, with the door shut when he started hearing a conversation going on. Not understanding where it was coming from he opened his door and nobody was around. He started looking around his office and realized the voices were coming from the phone that was on its hook with no buttons pushed. Not wishing to continue hearing the conversation the man held his face toward the phone and said Hello! Hello! At which time he heard a click and the voices were muted. He believed that someone in another room had accidentally “turned on the recording of one room and piped it to the wrong room.”
I don’t know IF the phone system at Bellevue has these capabilities, but can you imagine the consequences if they do to any who might be on staff and do not fully support the pastor and the leadership at BBC. Also we could think that because we are inside a friend’s office at BBC and that the doors are closed that no one will be able to know what we are saying. There are so many possible ramifications of a phone system to the above type that I cannot speculate on all of them. I just want you to be aware of the possibility and to be very careful having a conversation at BBC that you think is between you and the person or persons you are speaking to.
Here's a recent article about a pastor of a large church and alleged financial improprieties. (I'm not comparing this church to BBC... just passing on the article, b/c I thought some of you might be interested.)
Click here.
ezekiel said...
..
My father was a Mason until he was saved. I remember his basis for quitting the Masons. Eph 5:12
If Eph 5:12 was enough basis for quitting the Masons, would secrecy in a church be a good enough basis for quitting it?
Since Ephesians 5:12 refers to the behavior of non-Christians, the "basis for quitting" would be on the grounds that that church in question was not a Christian church.
Are you suggesting that Bellevue is not a Christian church?
--Mike
ezekiel said...
My father was a Mason until he was saved. I remember his basis for quitting the Masons. Eph 5:12
Eph 5:12 is certainly a good enough reason to resign and it should be more than enough for the leadership at BBC to resign also.
I am not sure wich Bible our leadrship is using. Do you think it has Eph 5:12 in it? Does it have the qualifications of a minister/deacon? Does it say that there are consequences of sin? If so, do you think they have studied it enough to know that?
IMHO
New BBC Open Forum said...
mike bratton wrote:
"Since I've asked via e-mail and not received a response, your statement prompts another question."
I'm sorry, I didn't get an e-mail from you. I can't answer what I don't see! (I'll probably regret this), but what was your original question?
I've sent it again.
--Mike
nbtt,
I don't care what kind of phone system they have at Bellevue. I was thinking of getting a megaphone and broadcasting my sentiments in front of the church building. Since I finally bought a copy of the movie "Luther" and watched it the other day, I've sort of been dying to get really vocal about the BBC situation. Anyway, that would probably end up biting the staff in the face instead of one of us. They are the stonewallers--not us.
Anyway, I would never say anything that I would be ashamed for the Lord Jesus Himself to hear--because He does, you know.
Dee
SOTL wrote:
"He obviously has little, if any, respect for women." - referring to Coombs.
A personal friend, female, who has had business association with DC would certainly agree with that statement, in fact, would state it much more strongly.
Mike,
Ephesians was written to the church in Ephesus. He is writing about 'professing Christians'. Paul talks more about this in Corinthians and makes it clear in 1 Corinthians that we are not to judge the 'world'. But even Peter made it clear that judgement is to begin at the church. Paul is telling them here to expose sin in the church Body.
Notice verse 3...He writes..'but among you'....he is clearly talking to the Body.
If you read 1 Corinthians closely you would see that if Paul meant they are to expose the 'world' or unbelievers he would be contradicting himself here. All letters are written to believers and must be read as such.
Ephesians 5
1Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children 2and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
3But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.[a] 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7Therefore do not be partners with them.
8For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9(for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) 10and find out what pleases the Lord. 11Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. 12For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. 13But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, 14for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said:
"Wake up, O sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you."
15Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is. 18Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. 19Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, 20always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
21Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
Lindon wrote: “There was a molestation the staff covered up. That is a fact. Some people on staff knew 17 years ago and some knew for 7 months and did NOTHING. That is a liability whether you see it or not. If the victim decided to sue, BBC could be in big fat trouble. It does not matter if there was 1victim or 20. Which part of this do you not understand? Are you being willfully ignorant? Or just have no intellectual discernment?”
Lindon, please share your intellectual knowledge of the law and explain what the church staff did that was cause for civil action from the victim? Keep in mind that to date the only victim to molestation by PW was his son. And this crime was committed outside the church. For civil action to take place, one would have to have shown that the church was in fact negligent to the degree to cause harm. You use of the term “covered up” is hyperbolic of the type wording used by those who oppose any actions by leaders at Bellevue. What cover up? Bro. Steve held in confidence what PW told him. There was no cover up, just someone who was wrong in his actions. But you try to make it sound as if there was this masterful plan to keep this a secret. What was a big error of judgment doesn’t necessarily translate into being a cover-up. Well not…… except for those who are looking to make any situation appear different than the facts.
And SOTL…..couple of points
To refute your numerical comments:
1) I don’t know why he had your file. Call him and ask. I would ask David but I know that he wouldn’t discuss any private issues that are confidential.
2) An assumption on your part….especially when you consider that David didn’t recall seeing you moments later.
3) Obviously you didn’t make much of an impression with your off handed comment.
4) Seems that it was reported that his sister in law had a glass of wine at a family gathering at Jim & Nick’s…… you say a bottle…..kinda sick of the lies myself. David wasn’t aware of the situation at the time. But what’s the point in all this? There are some who believe that a Christian shouldn’t be in an establishment that serves liquor. But what does the Scripture say in this area?
5) I know Dottie Coombs, and I will leave it at that. Don’t take everything you read as fact.
Some of you guys just have to go over the top with your comments….and that is a TRAVESTY.
JMO: Just one question. Is PW a criminal? Yes or no will suffice.
just my opinion,
Do you also refute the statement I made regarding David Coombs?
2006Huldah said...
nbtt,
Anyway, I would never say anything that I would be ashamed for the Lord Jesus Himself to hear--because He does, you know.
I totally agree and I am 100% with you, I just wanted people who could possibly be too trusting to say things in confidence and it come back to bite them or one of their friends.
JMO
If you don't want to believe it, go ahead and stick your head in the sand, but there was a man standing nearby that witnessed the entire thing. I did not even know he had been watching. He saw David Coombs laugh in my face...and then when this witness confronted him, he lied to both of us...HE LIED!!! HE TOLD A BIG FAT WHOPPER...MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT.
DAVID COOMBS IS A LIAR.
For civil action to take place, one would have to have shown that the church was in fact negligent to the degree to cause harm. You use of the term “covered up” is hyperbolic of the type wording used by those who oppose any actions by leaders at Bellevue. What cover up? Bro. Steve held in confidence what PW told him. There was no cover up, just someone who was wrong in his actions. But you try to make it sound as if there was this masterful plan to keep this a secret. What was a big error of judgment doesn’t necessarily translate into being a cover-up. Well not…… except for those who are looking to make any situation appear different than the facts.
If PW "counseled and/or interviewed" any potential church volunteers about their previous sexual abuse incidents AFTER the chuch staff knew of his sexual transgressions, believe me, there is the potential for HUGE civil consequences on behalf of the victims that were interviewed by him.
ezekiel said...
nbtt,
My copy has some pretty straight forward instruction on how to handle pedophile ministers, secrecy, scattering the flock, sheering the sheep.
We seem to be caught with leadership similar to the kings that preceded Josiah. Lets just hope we find the real copy when we clean out the Temple. Maybe, just maybe we can find someone as committed as Ezra to interpret it for us, Reckon?
9:50 PM, February 12, 2007
Ezek
You and I have the same copy. WOW!!!! I feel so blessed to have the Word of God and my leadership apparently does not have it.
Yes, hopefully a few years from now we can look back and see the good that came from all this pain.
I have heard it said that the more pain God allows you to bear, the more He wants to use you. I am sure that also applies to the church body as well, so I believe we can expect to see some great things come out of BBC after the sin is purged from the camp.
G'nite all
Mikie said...
"Since I am his friend, and have been for a number of years, I wouldn't hesitate to talk to him about such a thing--if it were a problem."
It is a problem, please address it with your friend. (I am sorry you do not hear him, I cannot on earth know why, everybody else does. Maybe it is because we have ears to hear.)
Thanks!
Mike Bratton said
Piglet said...
...
I always thought Jamie was a grand performer but he is a lousy excuse for a choir director.
Mike's response:
May we know your credentials that give you standng to make such a statement?
Piglet says:
I stand corrected. I should have said "music minister".
My credentials would be sitting under music directors who actually DIRECTED music for all of my life -won't say how long that has been...
I notice you did not ask e about my theatrical experience (?) :)
Ah, greetings truthseekers; still trying to reason with perveyors of flak? Where's Charlie when we need him.
Again, they want to silence you, or at least confound and dragoon the thread. May I humbly suggest that you acknowledge the troublemakers by wishing them peace and happiness and leave their provocations to wash away upon the rocks of inattention.
Good thought to you, from the pureland and...
The Outlaw
1972 by Larry Norman
Some say he was an outlaw, that he roamed across the land
with a band of unschooled ruffians and a few old fishermen.
No one knew just where he came from or exactly what he'd done,
but they said it must be something bad that kept him on the run...
Some say he was a poet, that he'd stand upon a hill
and his voice could calm an angry crowd, or make the waves stand still.
That he spoke in many parables that few could understand,
but the people stood for hours just to listen to this man....
Some say he was a sorcerer, a man of mystery.
He could walk upon the water, he could make the blind man see,
that he conjured wine at weddings and did tricks with fish and bread,
that he talked of being born again and raised people from the dead.
Some say a politician who spoke of being free
. He was followed by the masses on the shores of Galilee.
He spoke out against corruption and he bowed to no decree,
and they feared his strength and power so they nailed him to a tree.
Some say he was the Son of God, a man above all men.
But, he came to be a servant and to set us free from sin.
And that's who I believe he was 'cause that's what I believe,
and I think we should get ready 'cause it's time for us to leave....
Mom4,
Did you see my post to you at 8:48PM?
Dee
If I may be so bold, I asked a question which has yet to be answered--and no, responding to a question with a question (or a Scripture quotation that reinforces the thrust of my original question) isn't the same thing as answering it. To reiterate, I quote myself thusly, and like so:
"Since Ephesians 5:12 refers to the behavior of non-Christians, the 'basis for quitting' would be on the grounds that that church in question was not a Christian church.
"Are you suggesting that Bellevue is not a Christian church?"
The question was more than a bit clear; I would appreciate your answers being equally so.
--Mike
Phil Edmiston said...
BTW memphis and sickofthelies,
It's Janice "Edmiston", and not Janice "Rogers". :-)
I think that was Memphis' point exactly.
JMO said
David has a love for Christ and a love for Bellevue. David is a very intellectual person who knows Scriptures extremely well. He has preached in front of hundreds on numerous mission trips. By the way David is already called to be a minister as are you and I.. We are called to minister to others. The ordination is to place David is a position of one who is serving full time in the ministry. I cannot think of one more qualified than David Coombs.
Piglet says:
Why do I keep hearing this and seeing evidence to the opposite being true? Is that the effect that working for SG has on people?
Piglet said...
Mike Bratton said
Piglet said...
...
I always thought Jamie was a grand performer but he is a lousy excuse for a choir director.
Mike's response:
May we know your credentials that give you standng to make such a statement?
Piglet says:
I stand corrected. I should have said "music minister".
My credentials would be sitting under music directors who actually DIRECTED music for all of my life -won't say how long that has been...
I am in my fortieth year of garnering the same sort of credential you reference, and Jamie rates with the best of them. I'm sure Jamie would not presume to rate himself on a par with Dr. Whitmire, but as we say (ahem!) on the basketball court, Jamie has skills.
I notice you did not ask e about my theatrical experience (?) :)
Should I have done so?
--Mike
Dee,
I found it! I did not realize that you had removed the letter, but I doubt "observer" would have believed it anyway. I always think of the rich man and Lazarus when it comes to those who won't believe when the facts are there to read and hear. I have seen the full run of opinions by most and I stand amazed. It is so clear to me that I have a hard time understanding those who choose to weigh in on a side without basis or facts.
Thanks for you post - I appreciate you!
JMO
I do not want you to EVER address me again on this blog. I will not address you and you do not address me.
I don't take kindly to folks who try to tell me that things didn't happen as they did, when I was the one standing there and they ( you) were not.
Been there, done that.
This is all too familiar to me. I know what I know, and no one is going to tell me what happened didn't happen.
Scroll past my posts from now on.
mike bratton wrote:
"I've sent it again."
I've not received it again. :-( Did you use the new e-mail address in my profile? I've got a new Yahoo address that so far seems to be working. The old one still isn't except for two day-old messages that drifted in this afternoon.
sickofthelies said...
memphis said:
"Do you not find it interesting that Janice Rogers is at GBC?"
Is that suppose to mean the wife or the daughter???
SOTL says:
ummm, memphis, everyone knows that janice is his daughter. JOYCE is his wife. I find it interesting that you come on here and defend SG yet you do not know the names of the Roger's family?
I was under the impression that anyone who had done the LEAST amount of research would know that Janice Rogers worships at GBC, and would know who she is.
Scratchin head.
Reply:
That was a direct quote from your post. Of course I know Pastor Rogers wife and daughters name. I honestly thought you made a typo with "Janice Rogers", since I have never known her by that name. I simply wanted clearity of whom you were speaking of because a few posts earlier it was mentioned that Mrs. joyce was at he Sunday night service.
Instead of letting a yes be yes and a no be no, you instead chose to try and make me look like a trouble maker or to make me look stupid.
I understand that you are angry at some people on here, but I should not be one of them at all, I was not attacking you, or belittling you and even arguing with you!
mike b said to ezekial
Are you suggesting that Bellevue is not a Christian church?
Piglet says:
BBC leaders are not behaving like christian church leaders at this point in time, more like the mafia without violence (but WITH the law breaking).
Memphis, if that is the case, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, I sincerely apologize to you.
2006huldah said
Anyway, I would never say anything that I would be ashamed for the Lord Jesus Himself to hear--because He does, you know.
Piglet says:
Go, Dee!
Mike Bratton,
A few questions for thee:
Given that outrage is your M.O. on this blog, were you as vocal with regard to protestations directly to the Pastor regarding letting a pedophile continue 7 months as a minister after the discovery? Should the consequences of doing so be limited to a (sort of) apology?
Is their a glaring lack of any forum within the church for which these issues could be mediated, such that concerned members would not have to rely on this blog? If not, do you believe it is because the matter of the Pastor's incuriosity regarding the pedophile doesn't warrant outrage, or at least not as much as so-called gossip?
Sorry y'all, I'm breaking my own rule, but the questions are rhetorical--meaning I don't expect a (good) answer.
Mike Bratton
When I said Jamie was a grand performer,you did not ask about my theatrical experience. :)
I truly enjoy seeing Jamie perform.
But during worship I would rathernot see him at all because he draws attention to himself. Jim Whitmire DIRECTED (you know, using hand motions so you could sing along even if you weren't familiar with the song).
Jamie performs,which is his specialty.
Yeah, right. You disagree....
sheeplessatbbc said...
Folks we are in serious times in the life of our church.
Indeed. Which is why I encourage the behavior of the "regulars" here to be sober, serious behavior, rather than "Who can we disparage today?"
I also do not understand why David Coombs, a businessman, that took an administrative position at BBC has suddenly been given the title of minister and now is going to be ordained on Feb 25th. What is the urgency in all this??
Perhaps you should ask him?
Now, about Jamie..."IT IS ALL ABOUT JAMIE"
Actually, it is not, and Jamie Parker would be the first to tell you otherwise.
Such statements regarding his mindset are insubstantial opinions, and folks such as yourself would do well to repent of them.
Forget trying to say it is the bloggers...It is not just the bloggers that have a problem with Jamie. When he first came back to BBC, I kept trying to discern if he was really that happy, the overexagerated constant smile.
When Jamie worships, he's that happy.
My, my. Such a thing to be indicted for: WWS, Worshipping While Smiling.
In my heart I feel it is for show..
Then "your heart" is mistaken.
his gestures are inappropriate for the words of the song,
I take it, whoever you are, that you're a singer? No?
they are not relaxed and the pinching of the thumb & index finger and pointing of same is overly dramatic.
And your credentials for coming to such a conclusion are...?
He takes away from the reverence of the music.
Yes, and he must have the rare gift of being able to cry on cue, too. The times he's done so when leading the congregation in worship, or leading the choir, must all be faked, ginned up, hokey bales of nonsense.
The prayers he prays, the Scriptures he quotes--all just props in a show, hmm?
As far as hearing him above the choir..yes, yes, yes!!! I have sat in the back, in the middle and near the front and he makes it a point to be heard over everyone else, he is trying to be the soloist!!
Even when he's leading the choir and orchestra?
Hmm... Didn't realize the man was that talented!
Another thing, for the person who he & his wife listed to the music from this past Sunday..
That would be me.
Jamie had been sick,,maybe he had not gotten the full strength of his vocal cords back. Sunday before last morning & night, the music was great and very reverent and enjoyable..Jamie was not there and it was not Jamie's show, it was worship.
No, sorry. If you'll scroll up, I was referring to the service which was televised last Sunday, a service which actually occurred several weeks ago.
And isn't it interesting that no one has criticized Dr. Whitmire's being heard clearly during the congregational singing? How is it that it's all right in one instance, but not in another?
Well, just so I don't leave anyone hanging, let me answer that one. It's all right in both circumstances.
I am not a member of the choir and can't even carry a tune,
Then why are you so very, very critical of areas that you admit aren't strong points with you?
but I do know reverent worship, and have heard many, many people refer to our music as, Jamie's show.
Oh.
So gossip and smart-aleck comments from people who wouldn't dream of saying the same things to Jamie Parker's face serve to sway your opinion?
How does that work, exactly?
So for the person that is a friend of his,
Me, again.
maybe you will share this information with him, and if Jamie is sincere about wanting to serve the Lord he will make it all about HIM, not Jamie.
Jamie knows about the unfortunate attitudes of individuals who seek to hurt him under the guise of piety; we've had previous conversations about it. Such people are in his prayers. And, for what it's worth, in mine, too.
--Mike
Trollcakes,
Thanks for injecting sound reasoning.
SOTL, I was going to email you but could not find it in your profile.
That was my only point.
Observer and all
I have seen this letter Dee speaks of with my own eyes!
I was also a witness to the event SOTL speaks of.
Memphis,
You have mail.
I was witness to the event SOTL relayed as well. I'm sorry if some can't seem to believe anything that goes against a friend, but truth is still truth.
Mike,
At an ealier date you were quite concerned regarding the behavior and thinking of our leadership regading PW. Since the report has now been given, are you still as concerned and what conclusion(s) did you arrive?
Piglet said...
Mike Bratton
When I said Jamie was a grand performer,you did not ask about my theatrical experience. :)
Well, then since it's a request, what about your theatrical expertise? :)
I truly enjoy seeing Jamie perform.
But during worship I would rathernot see him at all because he draws attention to himself.
By not waving his arms so much?
Jim Whitmire DIRECTED (you know, using hand motions so you could sing along even if you weren't familiar with the song).
Yes, I've actually taken a conducting course, way back when.
And while Jamie may not conduct out a downbeat, you honestly don't think people can follow along?
Jamie performs,which is his specialty.
Yeah, right. You disagree....
When the word "perform" is used a a pejorative, yes, I do disagree.
--Mike
aslansown said...
Mike,
At an ealier date you were quite concerned regarding the behavior and thinking of our leadership regading PW. Since the report has now been given, are you still as concerned and what conclusion(s) did you arrive?
Thanks for asking.
I've addressed the question at length on my blog; if you'd care to read it, I'd appreciate hearing your response to it.
--Mike
Do you care to breifly summerize for us here?
Mike Bratton said
Jamie knows about the unfortunate attitudes of individuals who seek to hurt him under the guise of piety; we've had previous conversations about it. Such people are in his prayers. And, for what it's worth, in mine, too.
Piglet says:
I guess scolding the choir for not being emotional enough and accusing them of not being spirit-filled isn't pious?
I believe Jamie is directly responsible for these "unfortunate attitudes". What did he expect when he and Steve rolled over everyone with their little agenda?
No, I wasn't there. Just heard the same story from several sources, one of which left the choir.
That's why I say SG's arrogance rubbed off on him. Atleast he knows not everyone is impressed with what he learned at Gardendale.
SOTL,
Ignore the bullies, they're just trying to distract you and make you 'chase rabbits'.
Mike Bratton
Performing is not a bad thing when you are SUPPOSED to be doing it..
Also, just curious to see if you think NOT interviewing the son of PW because he requested his two friends and family be present isn't a wee bit RIDICULOUS?!!
Oh,I have NO theatrical experience other than knowing a good performance when I see one - and I'm not degrading Jamie when I say he's a great performer! He is!
In my opinion, Jamie does get wrapped up in the singing, like he is singing for the Lord and is so totally into it. I also believe that he really believes what he is singing. I respect hat about him. I do not feel that the music comes off as the jamie parker show at all.
JMHO
Memphis
Next they'll be calling you communists and (yikes) libruls.
Trollcakes,
Thems fight'n words!
Trollcakes said...
Mike Bratton,
A few questions for thee:
Given that outrage is your M.O. on this blog,
That's hardly a "given," thanks. I'd appreciate it if you'd hold off on the attribution of motive, if it's all the same.
were you as vocal with regard to protestations directly to the Pastor regarding letting a pedophile continue 7 months as a minister after the discovery?
Having never had more than a passing conversation with Steve Gaines, no, I was not "as vocal" "directly to the Pastor."
Does he know where I stand? Yes, I know for a fact that he does.
How do I know? As we say in my family, that's a "nunya"--a polite, gentle way of saying "none of your business." :)
Should the consequences of doing so be limited to a (sort of) apology?
I'll say what I said to aslansown just moments ago: I've already written on the subject. If you'd like to visit my blog, I'd appreciate your comments on my articles.
Is their a glaring lack of any forum within the church for which these issues could be mediated, such that concerned members would not have to rely on this blog?
To be blunt, "concerned members" don't have to "rely on this blog." This blog grants anonymity, which is difficult to maintain when asking direct questions.
If not, do you believe it is because the matter of the Pastor's incuriosity regarding the pedophile doesn't warrant outrage, or at least not as much as so-called gossip?
We have issues in our church which must be addressed in a sober and straightforward manner. Inertia (or reticence) in the behavior of staff and leadership are as counterproductive as subjectivism and opportunism in the behavior of the membership.
--Mike
Memphis
All this about Jamie IS a matter of opinion _ although God truly knows his heart. Since I didn't have to put up with his put downs in the choir I was willing to "go with the flow" and tolerate the changes in the song service.
What I CAN'T tolerate is our own leaders blatantly disobeying the law. They are currently hiding documents from us and will soon be faced with a court order because they refuse to comply with the law.
What are they hiding? God only knows..but He DOES know!!
Mike Bratton said...
Indeed. Which is why I encourage the behavior of the "regulars" here to be sober, serious behavior, rather than "Who can we disparage today?"
Very interesting post, especially if you read on....
My, my. Such a thing to be indicted for: WWS, Worshipping While Smiling.
Disparaging remark #1
Then "your heart" is mistaken.
Is that a fact? Disparaging remark #2
Hmm... Didn't realize the man was that talented!
Disparaging remark #3
Then why are you so very, very critical of areas that you admit aren't strong points with you?
Disparaging remark #4.
Yes, and he must have the rare gift of being able to cry on cue, too. The times he's done so when leading the congregation in worship, or leading the choir, must all be faked, ginned up, hokey bales of nonsense.
The prayers he prays, the Scriptures he quotes--all just props in a show, hmm?
Disparaging remarks #5,6&7.
Mr, Bratton, I would have to admit, you are a master of disparaging remarks.
What's the old saying? Practice what you preach.
"I also believe that he really believes what he is singing. I respect hat about him. I do not feel that the music comes off as the jamie parker show at all."
Given your prior leanings, what else would you profess. Ja, everything's hunky-dory.
Mike Said:
We have issues in our church which must be addressed in a sober and straightforward manner. Inertia (or reticence) in the behavior of staff and leadership are as counterproductive as subjectivism and opportunism in the behavior of the membership.
How do you suggest we go about addressing these issues?
trollcakes,
You expected that non answer, didn't you? And you got it.
Piglet and Trollcakes, all I said was that I thought Jamie was not acting.
As to what I profess? Please email me and I will discuss it with you.
I do know what people are referring to as "the Jamie Show- people have called anything Jaime is involved in that for as long as I have known him. I don't always agree with his musical choices or style (but I admit that is just my personal feeling, it is not that I think he is doing anything wrong) but that doesn't mean he is not sincere and genuine in what he does. I enjoy watching his enthusiasm and passion even if I don't always love his music choices.
Piglet said...
Mike Bratton said
Jamie knows about the unfortunate attitudes of individuals who seek to hurt him under the guise of piety; we've had previous conversations about it. Such people are in his prayers. And, for what it's worth, in mine, too.
Piglet says:
I guess scolding the choir for not being emotional enough and accusing them of not being spirit-filled isn't pious?
I don't know if those are exact quotes, but I've been in the Bellevue choir long enough to know that we have more than a few people who are not expressive when they sing.
At all.
As I mentioned earlier, I was prompted to look over my DVR of last Sunday's televised service. It was depressing to see so many people in the choir singing, as one example, "The Majesty and Glory of Your Name" while wearing pained, joyless expressions on their faces.
But it's always been that way--in Bellevue's choir, and in others. I can even recall seeing audition-only choirs with members who just didn't seem to be connecting with the music they were singing.
And for the record, my friend has challenged the choir more than once over the years regarding this same problem, the friend in this instance being Jim Whitmire.
I believe Jamie is directly responsible for these "unfortunate attitudes". What did he expect when he and Steve rolled over everyone with their little agenda?
Did they cook "their little agenda" up in Pastor Gaines' office before Pastor Gaines left for Memphis, do you think?
And let me see if I understand you correctly: It's Jamie's fault that people attempt to assassinate his character on a semi-regular basis?
Sounds very much like "We regret the consequences of their actions."
When folks such as all you "regulars" here insist upon accountability and integrity in others, I must once again encourage you to check your own lives first.
No, I wasn't there. Just heard the same story from several sources, one of which left the choir.
Do your "sources" share a mindset, perhaps?
That's why I say SG's arrogance rubbed off on him. Atleast he knows not everyone is impressed with what he learned at Gardendale.
I can't think of the person Jamie Parker has tried to "impress."
--Mike
"That's hardly a "given," thanks."
No, it is; you have one demeanor: self-righteous--otherwise, see astounded.
"Does he know where I stand? Yes, I know for a fact that he does."
And you don't think folks here know where you stand? Your responses are more predictable than network TV.
"How do I know? As we say in my family, that's a "nunya"--a polite, gentle way of saying "none of your business." :)"
Didn't ask. ;]
"I'll say what I said to aslansown just moments ago: I've already written on the subject.
Well, don't want to put you out or anything. That's surely easier than a simple yes or no from you. So actually, your qualification to the answer is posted on your blog
"To be blunt, "concerned members" don't have to "rely on this blog." This blog grants anonymity, which is difficult to maintain when asking direct questions."
Non-answer--so when is the open forum with the membership taking place inside BBC? I'll mark my datebook.
"We have issues in our church which must be addressed in a sober and straightforward manner. Inertia (or reticence) in the behavior of staff and leadership are as counterproductive as subjectivism and opportunism in the behavior of the membership."
Blah, blah, blah--ah, how the lion is timid when faced with strightforward questions.
--Mike
Astounded said...
Mike Bratton said...
Indeed. Which is why I encourage the behavior of the "regulars" here to be sober, serious behavior, rather than "Who can we disparage today?"
Very interesting post, especially if you read on....
My, my. Such a thing to be indicted for: WWS, Worshipping While Smiling.
Disparaging remark #1
Then "your heart" is mistaken.
Is that a fact? Disparaging remark #2
Hmm... Didn't realize the man was that talented!
Disparaging remark #3
Then why are you so very, very critical of areas that you admit aren't strong points with you?
Disparaging remark #4.
Yes, and he must have the rare gift of being able to cry on cue, too. The times he's done so when leading the congregation in worship, or leading the choir, must all be faked, ginned up, hokey bales of nonsense.
The prayers he prays, the Scriptures he quotes--all just props in a show, hmm?
Disparaging remarks #5,6&7.
Mr, Bratton, I would have to admit, you are a master of disparaging remarks.
What's the old saying? Practice what you preach.
Excellent try.
However, whoever you are, you've fallen about seven marks short. Not that I don't appreciate the effort...
Apparently, you'd have it so that anyone who disagrees with you on an issue cannot actually express their disagreement!
While, on the other hand, folks such as the "regulars" here can drop bombs on people with whom they disagree with impunity, instead of engaging in a substantive discussion of issues.
How very comfy. And lopsided.
--Mike
Mike
Your opinion does not bother me. As I told Memphis,I can put up with changes in music, and I DON'T sing in the choir where all this arrogance first showed itself(opinions of many other choir members - some gone, some not).
I'm sure they "cooked it up at Gardendale", because, according to Gardendale posters, they rolled over them, too.
However, this arrogance of Jamie's good buddy Steve has trickled down to the point that Coombs and others arrogantly ignore the law.
That is not a matter of opinion,it is a fact that they have shown little regard for the law. Out of character for "spirit-filled" leadership.
But let's work on those sour faces in the choir....:(
bepatient said:
do know what people are referring to as "the Jamie Show- people have called anything Jaime is involved in that for as long as I have known him. I don't always agree with his musical choices or style (but I admit that is just my personal feeling, it is not that I think he is doing anything wrong) but that doesn't mean he is not sincere and genuine in what he does. I enjoy watching his enthusiasm and passion even if I don't always love his music choices.
SOTL says:
CALL THE DOCTOR!!! i am agreeing with BEpatient :)
Mike said,
Do your "sources" share a mindset, perhaps?
...Do you?
CALL THE DOCTOR!!! i am agreeing with BEpatient :)
SOTL, just take a few deep breaths, you should be ok. Also, cookies help.
:)
Mike,
You've allowed yourself to be drawn into a circular argument. How about discussing how we can address the issues that concern us most?
Trollcakes said...
"That's hardly a "given," thanks."
No, it is; you have one demeanor: self-righteous--otherwise, see astounded.
I find it very interesting, whoever you are, that you share with the "regulars" here a desire to attack individuals, rather than speak to issues.
"Does he know where I stand? Yes, I know for a fact that he does."
And you don't think folks here know where you stand? Your responses are more predictable than network TV.
To coin a phrase, it's not about me.
"How do I know? As we say in my family, that's a "nunya"--a polite, gentle way of saying "none of your business." :)"
Didn't ask. ;]
Just covering the bases.
"I'll say what I said to aslansown just moments ago: I've already written on the subject.
Well, don't want to put you out or anything. That's surely easier than a simple yes or no from you. So actually, your qualification to the answer is posted on your blog
No, I try out of courtesy not to eat up Nass' bandwidth by posting things I've already posted elsewhere.
"To be blunt, "concerned members" don't have to "rely on this blog." This blog grants anonymity, which is difficult to maintain when asking direct questions."
Non-answer--so when is the open forum with the membership taking place inside BBC? I'll mark my datebook.
Why, exactly, does it matter to you?
And for the record, I've been after an open, two-way business meeting for quite awhile. I just don't pursue my efforts in this estimable venue.
"We have issues in our church which must be addressed in a sober and straightforward manner. Inertia (or reticence) in the behavior of staff and leadership are as counterproductive as subjectivism and opportunism in the behavior of the membership."
Blah, blah, blah--ah, how the lion is timid when faced with strightforward questions.
Nice try.
However, I don't take bait nearly that easily.
Or, actually, at all.
--Mike
SOTL,
:)
Mike Bratton Said...
However, whoever you are, you've fallen about seven marks short. Not that I don't appreciate the effort...
I got tired of counting...
Apparently, you'd have it so that anyone who disagrees with you on an issue cannot actually express their disagreement!
There are respectful ways of showing disagreement. I guess you are the "fight fire with fire" type. You use exactly the same ammunition in your arguments that you rebuke others for.
While, on the other hand, folks such as the "regulars" here can drop bombs on people with whom they disagree with impunity, instead of engaging in a substantive discussion of issues.
So, in other words, jump on in, the mud is fine!
How very comfy. And lopsided.
See above...
Mike said
While, on the other hand, folks such as the "regulars" here can drop bombs on people with whom they disagree with impunity, instead of engaging in a substantive discussion of issues.
Piglet says:
PW's son NOT interviewed in an "investigation" that centered on HIS molestation. Why? Because he wanted his family and two friends present. This sounds familiar...I would say this is "substantive"
BBC leaders soon to receive a court order to OBEY the law because they refuse to do so...hmmm. I believe that qualifies as "substantive".
Throw out everything you call disparaging and gossip. What you have left scandalous.
"When folks such as all you "regulars" here insist upon accountability and integrity in others, I must once again encourage you to check your own lives first."
Ok, I checked--there's no way in heck I would be incurious about a pedophile in my church and I'm not even a Christian.
aslansown said...
Mike,
You've allowed yourself to be drawn into a circular argument.
If so, could you clarify that for me?
How about discussing how we can address the issues that concern us most?
First and foremost, by stepping out of the bushes. But haven't I been advocating that awhile now?
--Mike
Mike,
Why not an open two-way discussion here to begin with. If we can communicate here in total intellectual honesty, would that not prove to the leadership that it is possible within the confines of the Bellevue building?
Mike said, And for the record, I've been after an open, two-way business meeting for quite awhile. I just don't pursue my efforts in this estimable venue.
... and how have you been pursuing this, pray tell.
Trollcakes said...
"When folks such as all you "regulars" here insist upon accountability and integrity in others, I must once again encourage you to check your own lives first."
Ok, I checked--there's no way in heck I would be incurious about a pedophile in my church
Lack of protestation here does not equate to lack of protestation.
and I'm not even a Christian.
Then you have more important issues to deal with.
--Mike
Mike Bratton said...
aslansown said...
Mike,
You've allowed yourself to be drawn into a circular argument.
If so, could you clarify that for me?
You'll have to figure that one out yourself. You have the intellect.
Mike,
I've posted it multiple times, but I will use a little more bandwidth to say it again: I am a survivor of childhood sexual abuse, and as a concerned citizen and school teacher, then I'm acutely interested in why a bunch of good Christians dropped the ball for 17 freaking years.
But thanks for asking, Mr.
Y'all keep Mike entertained!
Goodnight!
"Then you have more important issues to deal with."
Hardly--I've never been happier in my path.
Mike Bratton,
You have missed your calling. You should have been a lawyer and argued cases in the Supreme Court. Have you ever considered going back to school for that purpose? I think of Greg Addison who did the opposite thing. He was first an attorney, then a pastor. By the way, I am serious.
Dee
aslansown said...
Mike Bratton said...
aslansown said...
Mike,
You've allowed yourself to be drawn into a circular argument.
If so, could you clarify that for me?
You'll have to figure that one out yourself. You have the intellect.
Thank you for the compliment. My intellect, such as it is, doesn't agree with your assessment.
oc said...
Mike said, And for the record, I've been after an open, two-way business meeting for quite awhile. I just don't pursue my efforts in this estimable venue.
... and how have you been pursuing this, pray tell.
As I said earlier, in my family we have a gentle way to say "none of your business"--we say "That's a 'nunya.'"
So, that's a "nunya." :)
aslansown said...
Mike,
Why not an open two-way discussion here to begin with. If we can communicate here in total intellectual honesty, would that not prove to the leadership that it is possible within the confines of the Bellevue building?
YES!!!
You'll pardon my enthusiasm... but, well, yes!
Which is why I have encouraged people for months to ditch the nicknames and claim their opinions--regardless of their viewpoint!
But if the "regulars" here keep doing their dead-level best to make mincemeat out of the reputations of people who don't share their point of view, the notion of this locale being a bastion of "total intellectual honesty" is an impossible dream!
Uh-oh...
Looks as though I'll be humming something from Man of La Mancha for awhile...
--Mike
P.S.: But, yes!
Trollcakes said...
"Then you have more important issues to deal with."
Hardly--I've never been happier in my path.
Your path is your problem.
--Mike
Snowbird,
I guess we know each other...I must be the friend you spoke of that had a business experience with DC and he was nothing short of a BRUTE.He was very degrading and condescending...and it was all very unnecessary.I jumped thru every hoop I could for him. I did the very best job I could do considering that he made it very difficult...I came to dread any contact with after a while. After that business experience I would find myself standing next to him at weddings. I was the first to speak to him but for a while I couldn't even get him to make eye contact.I just knew he would apologize and continued to speak 1st and not avoid him so there would be an opportunity for him to apologize and I was ready to accept. BUT DC is a brute. I meant nothing to him. I believe with all that I know he was specifically put over that investigative committee for that reason.....what woman or child already victimized or wounded would ever choose to have to face DC. I am still in shock that there was not one woman or advocate or professional involved....except I guess the attorney that made sure the wording was just right so as to protect those that should not be protected. Let me say also that I think his wife is very sweet and that I fooled myself in to thinking he was being protective of her when he instructed me to not contact her...only him.
SOTL,
I know that what you experienced with DC absolutely is true even tho I was not present....our personal experiences are too similiar. When I ran into one of his friends in the store right before the report came out and they began making light of anything SG or PW did...I laid it out about PW and her question was...have you called DC and told him this??? I said he would be the last person I would call and why. Her comment was....he used to be that way but he has changed....this bully experience with him was just a few years ago. When did he change????Nothing we have seen during his short time "in the ministry" is any different from the character he showed to me.Just because someone goes on mission trips and whatever else people seem to admire....what comes out of a person's mouth reflects what is in their heart. And as far as Jamie goes....and again I certainly don't dislike him personally but when he was a youth minister,my daughter came home broken hearted after seeing tantrums and spiritual immaturity but an emphasis on the emotional aspect whan time to "worship" And he and Dana at that time were clueless that it was setting a bad example for young people by consistantly going to R movies and renting them. I am sure they have well grown past that since then BUT their nature that I saw from our relationship would lean them towards being swept up in the emotional,feel good,follow SG path.With that said,I believe Dana has an innocent and very sweet heart.
Trollcakes said and I'm not even a Christian.
Mike said, Then you have more important issues to deal with.
Nice witnessing, Mike.
2006Huldah said...
Mike Bratton,
You have missed your calling. You should have been a lawyer and argued cases in the Supreme Court. Have you ever considered going back to school for that purpose? I think of Greg Addison who did the opposite thing. He was first an attorney, then a pastor. By the way, I am serious.
Dee
Then I thank you for your compliment, Dee. I have attorney friends who've made similarly kind suggestions.
Actually, my calling was to vocational ministry--something I've done for much of my adult life and will continue to pursue as the Lord opens doors, as well as something I'll be getting additional education for in the years to come.
Sleep well, folks.
--Mike
oc said...
Trollcakes said and I'm not even a Christian.
Mike said, Then you have more important issues to deal with.
Nice witnessing, Mike.
Please e-mail me when you have a chance.
--Mike
Mike, shot your mouth off and can't answer my question? Again, what have you been doing in pursuing a productive business meeting? And you answer,"nunya". Good answer. That was expected.
oc said...
Mike, shot your mouth off and can't answer my question? Again, what have you been doing in pursuing a productive business meeting? And you answer,"nunya". Good answer. That was expected.
Again, please e-mail me when you have a chance.
--Mike
Mike,
The nicknames may seem silly to you, but are important to those on this blog. Let's look past the affectation and assume that the words that are being used represent the ideas and viewpoints of the people here.
What if you and I refuse to practice making "mincemeat" of other posters and discuss only the issues? What then? Would we not have come closer to the goal of real,communication?
mike
you have email.
Good night, er, good morning all.
Mike,
You confuse me. You answer my question with "nunya", then ask me to email you. Quit disrespecting me and just answer my question.
Mike,
Well, thanks for your overflowing compassion, brother--may you have happiness and the causes of happiness; and yours too.
Goodnight, all.
OK, I go searching the Bratton Report to find the promised answers and I read this on the top of the page:
"Open contempt for those of us who are Christians and for Christianity in general is getting more and more fashionable..."
This theme coming from you, engaging me thus at BBCOP:
Ok, I checked--there's no way in heck I would be incurious about a pedophile in my church and I'm not even a Christian.
"Then you have more important issues to deal with."
Hardly--I've never been happier in my path.
"Your path is your problem."
--Mike "
Ah, and you don't even feel a pang of shame or may percieve the irony.
Have you ever considered that some of us have less animosity for Christianity than we do Jesus' supposed followers that comport themselves much like yourself?
May you prosper.
Oh, and spare me your parcing.
ilovebbc, I hope you're not really surprised that someone would use a letter to misrepresent the truth on this blog. I mean we have a number of people who can parse a statement into it's hidden meanings. Just look at the opening page with the diagnosis from icu nurse...what a wonderful mind reader she has tuned out to be. I am just waiting for the fortune teller to post and provide us all a glimpse into the future.
ilovebbc,
It is obvious from the letter that I have from Dr. Rogers that he did indeed love Steve Gaines. He even states that he would love for him to be his pastor. He also says, "If God has another person, I would yield to that." It is also obvious from Dr. Rogers' response that I had also stated that I loved Steve Gaines.
However, one of the main points that kept coming up on this blog was that Dr. Rogers himself CHOSE Steve Gaines as pastor. He obviously was making every attempt to avoid personally influencing the search committee. He TOLD me NOT to use his name as leverage when I contacted the committee.
Another point that came up more than once on the blog was that Dr. Rogers had said that he knew that Steve Gaines was God's man for Bellevue. Dr. Rogers, in his letter to me, says, "I cannot say for certain that he is God's man for our church..."
I will agree with you that Dr. Rogers' point in the letter definitely was NOT to say that he did NOT want Steve Gaines as pastor. I have never made such a statement. I was merely pointing out the facts I have above quoted in response to those other blog statements.
I also have thought the same thing you regarding how Dr. Rogers may have quickly changed his mind about Steve Gaines once it was all said and done. Sadly, I know that I have. Then, we hear reported that Dr. Rogers even asked Dr. Gaines to resign. Then, Dr. Rogers even went home to Jesus. Surely, this was the Lord's will for us. Only HE knows the real purpose for all we are now encountering. A test, perhaps?
Still, I think you have mistakenly suggested that I have been "a little misleading" by interpreting this letter as a statement of any kind of "refusal" by Dr. Rogers to support Steve Gaines as the pastor of choice for our church. That is why I posted the entire body of the letter for all to see. I felt that the letter itself was proof of what I actually did state. You must be going from your memory, though, because I removed the letter and my post the day after I put it on the thread. Perhaps, the inability to view the actual letter and my post has been the cause of your error. By the way, I am not offended by your statement; however, I did feel the need to lovingly clear up what was actually stated by me. I want only the truth to be known.
Dee
JMO- your sarcasm about such a serious situation is very disheartening to me.
Scripture is clear on these issues of integrity.
Good morning all. I have had a request to make this info available to all of you who care about the integrity of our church. Pastor/Teacher, John MacArthur has a wonderful message called "Lessons from a Modern-Day Shipwreck" that is available from Grace to You. In this message, he outlines the Biblical mandate for church discipline and Scriptural qualifications for men in the ministry. This is a wonderful message, shared with me by one of our deacons, Stuart Gray. The website for Grace to You is www.gty.org. Stuart has requested that if any of you have questions that you would like for him to address, he would be only happy to. His e-mail is sgrays@comcast.net. He asks that any questions he receives deal with factual information and not speculation. Is it so obvious that Scripture is NOT being followed by our church, but we need to know what Scripture says so that we can discern and be ready to give an answer to any who ask. Have a great day in the Lord!
just my opinion,
Your statement is unfounded and unfair. I would NEVER use a letter from Dr. Rogers to make a false or misleading statement. THAT is a fact. Anyway, I put the entire letter on here for all to see so that they could form their own conclusions. Did you even SEE the letter or my post, or are you just speaking words in haste without checking them out for yourself first? You're just blindly jumping on the first bandwagon that came by today. Please, try to be more discerning and not so quick on the draw.
To all--Please listen to lwf.org today. Dr. Rogers has an excellent message for us that will help you and edify you.
Dee
Excuse me, I am confused.
Is trollcates the same one who has stated (in his deeds) Jesus and the Gospel writers are liars and lunatics by denying Jesus is the Son of God.
Isnt Trollcates a budhist?
Why would a christian carry on a conversation with a non christian concerning church business? Doesnt the bible say the gospel is foolishness to the unbelievers? Henceforth, an unbeliever already considers us as fools.
Trollcates, if I have you confused with someone else, I apologize. If not, this is not a cut down, simply facts. A person cant have Jesus both ways, He either is the Son of God, raised on the third day or He isn't.
For what its worth, it seems many are so eager to quote the law, but few recognize the greater law is forgive and move on.
Because of the cute usernames I cant believe so many people got so wrapped up over ace. In an annonymous forum, anybody could be anybody. I think we would all be amazed of how many teenagers we are probably talking to, and how many unbelievers are here.
Question: when a person does not post as a real person to be held accountable, are they a real person?
SFTTatBBC:
Searched for the John MacArthur message "Lessons from Modern-Day Shipwreck". Can only find an Earthquake message. Could you please provide a link? Thanks.
terry smith wrote: "Why would a christian carry on a conversation with a non christian concerning church business? Doesnt the bible say the gospel is foolishness to the unbelievers? Henceforth, an unbeliever already considers us as fools."
When the church acts like the world, what do you expect? Your leaders acted like the world when they decided to harbor a confessed pedophile minister who, in the eyes of the law committed a criminal act. It does not matter if it was only committed 17 years ago for 15-18 months. It is still a crime for which he was protected.
In the eyes of scripture, he should resigned immediately within the first occurance. Since he did not, he should have been sent out immediately by church leaders who knew so that he would have to depend on God. 1 Corinthians 5. He did not fit the requirments of an elder/minister according to scripture. Yet, your pastor (and others in the past) chose to ignore scriptural commands and precepts.
When pastors overlook pedophilia in their ministers, it becomes the business of the world.
If you do not want the world in your church then do something about it.
Quite frankly, it sounds more like scripture is 'foolishness' to your pastor.
Terry Smith,
Yes, I am a real person. I am not only a true believer but also a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ. If you don't believe me, just ask Him since He is the ONLY ONE who can say exactly who is or who isn't one of His own. I am 59 years old--not a teenager. I have been a member of Bellevue for 28 years. Do you think I might be eligible to state the truth on this blog as the Lord so leads me?
Guess what else, Terry? We love Trollcates. Do you find that shocking? And, guess what else, Terry? We love YOU. We do this because that is the thing that the Lord Jesus commands us to do. We do so in obedience and because we love HIM and because HE LIVES IN US and we abide IN HIM.
The Lord Jesus was on the receiving end of A LOT of criticism for dining with sinners and publicans. He was accused of being of the devil. He was beaten, spit on and scorned. He was born to die that we might have eternal life. People found fault in Him. HE saw beyond the fault in us. And why? Because He first loved us and was willing to suffer and die for ALL the sins of the whole wide world-- for all time and for everybody if they would just come to Him. HE is WITH us; HE is FOR us; HE is IN us. Oh, how I love Jesus! AMEN AND HALLELUJAH!
Sing HALLELUJAH, Terry!!! :)
Dee
Terry Smith,
Annonymity on the blog should serve to enhance the dialog rather than detract from it. Most of the members of Bellevue posting here don't know one another by sight or reputation anyway. How about focusing on what is being said rather than who is saying it?
Are you concerned with the state of Bellevue and it's people? What needs to be done to bring about healing? Can you help me identify the underlying problems(s)?
"Question: when a person does not post as a real person to be held accountable, are they a real person?"
A very good question to ask some of the reformers and Anabaptists who wrote anonymously chastizing the Catholic church and practices of the 'state' church. These anonymous writings did much to bring to light Unbiblical practices. You may want to thank some of these writers that helped to abolish the state church.
Sorry! I had trouble locating that particular message on the Grace to You website as well, but I don't know why. Call them, 1-800-55-GRACE. If you still have problems, I'm certain Stuart Gray could get a copy to you. I'm told he has permission.
Terry,
I guess you kinda see what goes on on this blog. I understood your concern about discussing church business with a non believer. But how quickly it was turned into you not loving unbelievers. And hence this is the problem. Most are so entrenched in their position that they only see and read into it what they want to see. Therefore to ask that one look toward forgiveness is difficult at best.
Just as the untrue gossip of Dr. Rogers asking Bro. Steve to resign keep coming up without any truth source whatsoever, you will find that words will be translated into thoughts which you never intended. And then the suppositions about what was misinterpreted will be discussed for days.
terry smith wrote:
"Question: when a person does not post as a real person to be held accountable, are they a real person?"
Oh, I'm pretty sure everyone who's posted here, anonymously or not, is a real person. However, if it bothers you so much not to know everyone's name (as someone said, you wouldn't know most of us anyway), then don't come here and try to argue with "us." It's not about us -- or you. It's really that simple.
In fact, I think I'll enact a new rule effective immediately. Any comment in which the poster makes comments such as "whoever you are" will be deleted. That should lay to rest any idea that as long as people aren't coming here just to disrupt the blog it doesn't matter "who" they are.
NBBCOF
NBBCOF,
Any word of David regarding his dizziness? Hope is he ok.
Question: when a person does not post as a real person to be held accountable, are they a real person?
Is this a rhetorical question? Oh well...
Just because some of us don't post under our real names (and have excellent reasons for doing so if I do say so myself), does not mean we are not accountable for what we say. Nor does it mean that we are unknown to all of the readers of this blog. Just because you may not know who I am, does not generalize to everyone. Make sense?
Even if no one knows a poster on the blog, does the Lord not see all of our posts? I mean, really...
David called me yesterday afternoon, and he said it's a case of vertigo (inner ear infection), so he's taking medicine which should clear it up.
JMO: "I understood your concern about discussing church business with a non believer."
How is having a pedophile minister on staff for 17 years not the world's business?
How is protecting a pedophile minister for 7 months not the world's business?
Can you answer that for me?
"lindon wrote:
JMO: Just one question. Is PW a criminal? Yes or no will suffice."
I see you never answered this question. Perhaps it should be asked like this: JMO, Did PW commit a criminal act? Yes or No?
HELP!!!!!!!!!!Where is Charlie....Seems Mike Bratton's blog must be really slow as he has nothing more to do than come here to try to cause confusion and conflict....Scrool Scrool Scrool.
Just a general statement to anyone who it applies to(if your phone's ringing, answer it):
Folks shouldn't enter a website/blog and complain about how that website/blog is operated when they don't own it. The owner holds all rights as to it's contents, rules, usage, etc. It's really very simple..if you don't like the site, the owner, the rules, content, other posters,etc., then don't type it's url into your browser or delete it from your bookmarks. Otherwise behave yourselves, abide by the rules, and stop complaining.
AOG:
Now that's just too obvious. It's a pity that it has to be even mentioned. Do you think that this has anything to do with the problems that Bellevue faces?
stonethrower,
Please tell me that was satire because if it wasn't it was uncalled for. As far as I know, no one here has any issue with Mr. McCune, and if you do, this isn't the place to air it.
NBBCOF
Hi all,
I just bounced over to SavingBellevue and found a great link, 25 min but well worth the time. It's Chuck Swindoll on Intimidation. Got there by clicking on "The Blog is no longer linked here" and it flipped directly to Chuck's message.
AOG Said:
Otherwise behave yourselves, abide by the rules, and stop complaining.
I think this a good idea, but I also think it should extend to the fact that you should remember you are posting on an OPEN FORUM and people can have any opinion that they want.
I see the "regulars" here being more accepting of Trollcates than people from their own church who have different views.
Bepatient said...
AOG Said:
Otherwise behave yourselves, abide by the rules, and stop complaining.
I think this a good idea, but I also think it should extend to the fact that you should remember you are posting on an OPEN FORUM and people can have any opinion that they want.
I see the "regulars" here being more accepting of Trollcates than people from their own church who have different views.
11:14 AM, February 13, 2007
Bepatient:
I believe that you have hit upon part of the problem that we face. HUBRIS.
This is defined as an overwhelming, fatal form of pride.
When we think more of ouselves that God does we tread on very thin ice. It leads to intolerance of any opinion other than our own and demands that all bow down to the idol of our own making.
I firmly believe that Bellevue began to think that God owed us. We believed and may yet think that the Spiritual universe centered at 2000 Appling and any other gathering of believers was merely a shadow of what we had become. In our PRIDE we came to believe that God spoke first to Bellevue and that all others should stand in line waiting to see if they measured up. Instead, we find oursleves looking around to see if God is at work at all.
bepatient wrote: "I think this a good idea, but I also think it should extend to the fact that you should remember you are posting on an OPEN FORUM and people can have any opinion that they want."
I am constantly amazed at your thinking processes. This 'forum' belongs to NASS. She decides the rules for HER blog. As long as she follows the rules of e-blogger she can do what she wants. You do not understand how blogs work. Oh, And, she can change the rules anytime she wants.
JMO "I see the "regulars" here being more accepting of Trollcates than people from their own church who have different views."
Judgment begins at the House of the Lord...Not with the 'world'. Paul is much harder on professing Christians. He tells believers to stop worrying about what the world does. Read 1 Corinthians. So, stop worrying about Trollcates.
Thank you, allofgrace. As I said, I've never gone to anyone else's blog and tried to influence the way they do things there. All I ask is the same courtesy be extended me.
But I don't consider this my blog because it is only what the posters make it. It's our blog. I just happen to provide the meeting place and try to maintain some semblance of order. Thanks to all of you (well, most of you anyway) for not making my job difficult.
"Open" means open to anyone as long as they stay within the framework of the guidelines set down by the administrator. You can speak your mind...within that framework. What's "fair" in an individual's mind is not the the defining factor...the administrator defines what's fair as they operate within the guidelines they are under.
I wrote:
"As I said, I've never gone to anyone else's blog and tried to influence the way they do things there. All I ask is the same courtesy be extended me."
Or forum.
Ilovebbc posted:
“JMO,
I hope you are correct that Dr. Rogers didn't ask Bro Steve to resign. However, it's been posted on here as fact - the source supposed to be coming from unnamed family members. To me that's 2nd or 3rd hand information that I don't consider as fact since I haven't heard it from the horse's mouth and it's only been more of the "he said/she said" info that is so common here. However, I'd be interested in knowing how you know for certain it is not true. I'm definitely hoping you are correct.”
I will quote Dr. Rogers on this subject, “what you think or say about the truth doesn’t change the truth”. I stand surprised that a person who would say that they have Jesus in their heart would for a moment accept the statement above as anything but gossip. I was not a close enough friend to Dr. Rogers to know this but I do know those close and they said that Dr. Rogers never intimated to them these feelings. Do you really believe that the people closest to Dr Rogers would continue to support Bro. Steve if they had believed your statement?
Ester posted:
“"lindon wrote:
JMO: Just one question. Is PW a criminal? Yes or no will suffice."
I see you never answered this question. Perhaps it should be asked like this: JMO, Did PW commit a criminal act? Yes or No?”
Ester, just so there is no misunderstanding of my position, here goes….
I believe that PW committed a criminal act and should have been removed from ministry immediately. No if, ands or buts…shouldn’t been fired before the vibrations of his words to his actions could no longer be heard.
I believe that Bro. Steve Gaines was totally wrong in his inactions in this matter.
I believe that only PW’s son has a right to decide the future of this case as it relates to criminal prosecution.
I was looking for Charlie yesterday!! Also,I am confused about Terry wanting to show our real names so we can be held accountable?????? Accountable for opinions and discussions concerning issues not being addressed openly and honestly at BBC??? Accountable to who?? People in positions of trust at BBC are NOT held accountable for allowing PW to continue to prey on vulnerable people....and that is what he was allowed to do...fact not speculation. Why was Ace such an issue???? Because he made threats to vulnerable people to expose their confidential information that was never suppose to be in the hands of any person on or around the "investigation committee"...And how many times do we try and explain the entire meaning of Forgiveness????? It has been my experience over and over that people who do not want to deal with wrongs/SIN or make any changes in their own thinking are very quick to throw the responsibility to one side with the forgive and move on thing.In fact,that's all I knew for years and accepted that responsibility. Until I learned the complete meaning of forgiveness at Bellevue Baptist Church...in the classes I took pertaining to healing and being healthy,responsible Christians and from Brother Rodgers who saw fit to write an article about forgiveness which I have today. Some may choose to buy into this one sided,watered down version. That is your choice. It doesn't work for many of us anymore.
Yes, the whole "accountability" idea on the blog is quite ironic isn't it.
If you care that much about accountability, go demand it from your undershepherd who knowingly exposed you and your children to a pedophile for 7 months.
jmo said..."Do you really believe that the people closest to Dr Rogers would continue to support Bro. Steve if they had believed your statement?"
Who are these people?
All
I am encouraged this morning and I'll tell you why.
Over the weekend, and thru today, I have spoken with about 4 people who at one time were adamant SG supporters, but once they started looking at the facts, they started to ask questions, and came upon stone walls.
The tide is turning, folks. I can feel it. Jesus is shining the light on the Millionaire's club at BBC and its' president, SG.
Continue to pray that they would repent.
soc said:
If you care that much about accountability, go demand it from your undershepherd who knowingly exposed you and your children to a pedophile for 7 months.
SOTL says;
:::::: clapping:::::::
::::: standing O ::::::::::::
And thier silence speaks louder than words concerning support.
sotl,
thank you for your support :)
stonethrower said: time to toss Steve McCune
stony, you're way off, waaaayyyy off.
(That is, unless you're just being facetious in your statement.)
I'm Ed Thompson, and I approve this message.
I think it is interesting that everyone assumes the worst about what I said.
This is not about the rules for this blog, this is about the attitudes towards each other. I try to follow NASS's rules, and I encourage others to do the same.
I can tell you this- I have rarely seen less love displayed to other Christians as I have on this blog.
James 3:9-11 "With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness. Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be. Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring?"
stonethrower:
You don't need to worry yourself about Mr. McCune - he is worshipping at GBC now. He did "see the light".
umm jmo,
pot paging the kettle... pot paging the kettle...
jmo wrote:
"Why reference specifically a 'millionaire’s club at BBC'?"
Okay, can you think of a better term for the little group of rich, powerful men who run Bellevue to the exclusion of everyone else? I can't.
However, I'd be careful about projecting "envy" on someone. If I ever love money as much as some of these men appear to, then I pray God just takes me out! People often misquote the Bible when they say, "Money is the root of all evil." Money's not the root of all evil. The love of money is.
Here's a paraphrased quote reportedly spoken by a highly placed, current staff minister about Steve Gaines. He was asked, "Does Steve Gaines love money?" He reportedly paused for a very long time before he finally said, "I wouldn't say he loves money... but he does enjoy nice things!"
Blog admin.
Why are you deleting my comments? Am I only allowed to repudiate Gaines and Parker, but not others when they do the very same things?
JMO
Lay off of SOTL for her "millionaires club" remark. Where were you when I called them the BBC Outlaws?
All they need are some black hats. :)
This is a serious question...Why are there people with mics standing on either side of JP during the singing portion of the worship service? I could understand their presence if there was no choir, but with a choir, I need help in understanding this. Any insight is appreciated.
socwork wrote: "umm jmo,
pot paging the kettle... pot paging the kettle... "
We are in agreement on this point. I do deserve that comment but my frustration grows as I see men I know and respect being misunderstood as to their love for their Lord and His church. We all make mistakes but I don't for a minute believe that our leaders start down the road to error. These times there are valid positions on both sides of the issues but that shouldn't allow for us to name call. And to SOTL, I do apologize for calling you out. I will delete my post.
Thanks for your response, jmo.
By the way, have you taken a look at the letter I linked to a few minutes ago - it's factual, inside information about the investigative committee. I'd be curious what your thoughts are after you read, if you care to share.
SOTL
I am encouraged by your news, not because I am enjoying the strife as JMO supposes,but because the only way our church can heal is if those living in sin and pride repent and come clean. I am praying God will take them out if they don't, in whatever way He sees fit.
We desperately need leaders that love us and set an example for us. I am really missing that, and have been for sometime now.
Thank God for good Christian friends, Love Worth Finding and my personal relationship with the Lord and His word.
As more people realize the seriousness of the issues before us, the closer we come to dealing with them.
socwork said...
Important letter on saving bellevue site!!!
Read here
1:47 PM, February 13, 2007
***Unbelievable..a MUST Read!! Seems more truth is coming out! Thanks Socwork for making us aware of this letter.
I for one, am so broken hearted that so many of the leaders of our church that I have served with in certain capacities of ministry have totally lost my respect. These are men that my family and I have looked up to for YEARS, and it has been very hard. Up until a few months ago, I would have defended them with all that was in me, but no more. They have had numerous opportunities to stand up and do what was right, but they just keep skipping down the primrose path, misusing our tithe money, keeping things secret from our church body which should be out in the open with no qualms, stonewalling on every side, encouraging those of us who don't agree to "just leave", because they don't want to be accountable. I know that I should not worship any man but Christ, but I would like the trust for my pastor and the leadership of our church to be restored. I am not holding my breath.
3rdside said...
"This is a serious question...Why are there people with mics standing on either side of JP during the singing portion of the worship service? I could understand their presence if there was no choir, but with a choir, I need help in understanding this. Any insight is appreciated."
2:13 PM, February 13, 2007
It is a good question - they are called the "Praise Team" and they are a part of the PDL movement. Not that the individuals are participants in PDL, however the Praise Team was initiated by Dr Whitmire against his personal wishes. I am not sure who "pushed" for it, but it was not well received by Dr Whitmire. I do not know where Dr Rogers stood on the issue, Mark Dougharty has commented that we were "behind the times" and that was why he was supportive of having a praise team.
I do PERSONALLY know that there were choir members that left after this concept was promoted.
If anyone else has some additional inside knowledge, please address this.
From Chuck's letter:
"Bellevue Baptist Church (BBC), via the Investigative Team’s (IT) final report, took action and made statements to support their actions, without including critical information from the principles and those representing them. While the report contains a great deal of factual information, it lacks contextual accuracy and veracity."
I was scoffed at for saying the report lacked the appropriate context. Some of you sent hateful emails which said I did not know what I was talking about. You know who you are.
Chuck's letter clears up some things. I believe more context is needed and I expect it to be forthcoming.
Mom4,
Within weeks, if not days, of Dr. Rogers' retirement, Mark Dougharty announced the praise team and other music changes to Dr. Whitmire. I don't know if Mark made the decision or if he was carrying out someone else's orders but apparently whomever made the decision believed it was their church to do with as they wished.
These men have much to answer for.
With Chuck's letter, they have even more to answer for...
MOM4,
Thanks for your thoughts. While reading your post, I recalled that SG had selected several months of music for Bro. Jim to direct when he (SG) first arrived. I actually forgot that the praise team configuration started before JP. If it just made sense on any level, I guess I could live without questioning it, but I seriously question it! I also recalled that the new platform members are the reason SG decided not to sit on the platform; he mentioned on Sunday that they told him he got in the way...
Wow, that was an incredible letter written by a man who knows his duty before Christ. God Bless him!
His exposition of 1 John was beautiful and right on target.
Knowing Chuck Hanniford personnaly, I would expect nothing less. Chuck IS a man of true integrity.
Thank you, Chuck, for speaking out from your heart.
I hope more men of God will be bold and do what is right before the Lord, whether it is rebuking the wrongdoing they have personally witnessed or repenting before the church body for wrongdoing they have allowed or been aparty to.
Folks...
It all goes back to "I had a dream"--or not...
Matthew 18 was set aside. There is now no vehicle at all for accountability for the leadership... except the law of the land which has been broken more than once.
Some posters come here to lecture, look down upon, and intimidate the posters here. Their attitudes, posturing, and repetitive approach of attacking the posters here instead of dialogue is predictable. This forum has repeatedly called for an open, fair, loving, scriptural forum before the church. If it doesn't occur down here, then the assembly will be much larger in heaven.
The defenders of the current Bellevue oligarchy here, etc: Stonethrower, Observer, MB, Just My Opinion, Bepatient...
Regardless of our position(s)we need to show love to one another. TO BOTH SIDES: the certainty of your "rightness" should not provide you with an excuse for meanness.
BTW... Observer and Stonethrower seem to have gone to ACErtain school of blog disruption. Wonder if they're over 20?
All of the above is my opinion as usual.
socwork, you asked for my opinion and obviously I don’t mind sharing it.
I think that while the church responded in the necessary ways to protect the church that the victim was overlooked. The letter seems to me to be saying that the family would have benefited from having PW rebuked in front of the church for his actions. This could have benefited not only the victim, the family and the church. This is the way Dr. Rogers would have handled the situation as he had done this public rebuking in the past.
I am not trying to rationalize as to why a public rebuke did not take place but please be aware of the publicity surrounding this situation. The church and pastor was being vilified in the press and on blogs. I think that there was more concern at that time placed on resolution of the church issues rather than the victim’s issues. The net results from an administrative standpoint were not going to change. PW would have been terminated for his actions and inactions.
I believe that Chuck is saying that whilst the team was eliminating the position and blaming all the staff that stood by and did nothing no one took the effort to think about what would be best for the victim. But in defense of David Coombs, he certainly isn’t trained in the area of counseling. He took the business approach. Find the problem, who caused the problem and take corrective actions. While certainly appropriate in a business environment not the best solution in helping to heal the wounds of the victim and his family.
But circumstances sometimes dictate actions. Dr. Rogers was able to publicly rebuke JG one Wednesday evening because it was biblical, JG and his family were following the biblical way and opened to be rebuked for his actions, and there were no other controversy surrounding Bellevue at the time. There were no camera from TV stations and the whole world wasn’t watching. But Chuck is right in that we should not have cared for all the surrounding events and been concerned about the victim. Maybe it didn’t help that some went to the TV stations complaining about the church and the staff and made it more the issues than the concern for the victim.
The bottom line is this was not failure in our actions but in our inactions. Once again it shows that God’s way is the only way. But how many of us find this out after our attempt to do it our way. I certainly have more than once.
stonethrower said: Unlike you I am being consistent. We all agreed it was wrong when Jamie did it.
Therefore it was wrong when Steve McCune did it. I'm not going to put up with this "we'll tell you what to do" attitude from Gaines, Parker, or McCune.
Whoah, Nelly!! Just a minute.
One, I am being completely consistent. To my recollection, I have NEVER made a comment on this blog about JP and his style. Therefore, I have not agreed with anything about JP and am most certainly consistent. Don't assume everyone here agrees with the assessment of issues presented by others.
Two, your interpretation of events so as to use the word "chastise" grossly misrepresents the facts (I have been given a first-hand account of it since my last post.). If you will research the facts, you will find that some of the deacons in that meeting were still standing around and/or talking while SM was trying to lead the singing.
Thirdly, I was at Bellevue for 25+ years and over that time heard Dr. Rogers AND Dr. Whitmire at various times either encourage - not "chastise" as you put it - the congregation (or choir) for singing in a half-hearted or inattentive manner. If you've been at BBC for any length of time, I'm sure you heard these same admonishments. Did you interpret them as Dr. Rogers or Dr. Whitmire trying to "tell you what to do"?
Lastly, this blog is littered with statements such as yours that find fault in almost anything done these days. Granted, based on previous decisions by the administration, it's hard not to scrutinize almost everything, but we need to be careful.
For instance, one item of note is sickofthelies stating that SG's attitude when he came in was one of "tearing down, pulling up and overthrowing". They are indeed "SG's own words", but they are taken out of context. The original speech is still on the Savingbellevue web site and highlights the "offending" text. The quote is from a speech to a seminary in 1999 and misapplied to the BBC situation. SG is clearly talking about theological liberalism.
Here's the quote in context: Gaines challenged students with examples from his personal ministry. A previous church he served “had been under moderate-to-liberal leadership” for 30 years. “And, I’m telling you that from the first day that I walked in the door, it was a time of plucking up, breaking down, destroying and overthrowing,” he said.
Is that not what Dr. Rogers and others did with the SBC liberalism in the '80s and '90s? They torn it down, plucked out the weeds and replanted inerrancy?
The principle is TRUE for our own lives. God works in us by tearing down the old nature, plucking out the sinful habits, and rebuilding us in the likeness of Christ. And you know what? Many Bellevue members were content to be fat, dumb and lazy under the instruction of Dr. Rogers. I know I have found that I grew complacent. However, to take a quote out of context from a speech more than 7 years old and attempt to apply it to a predetermined conclusion is wrong.
Ed Thompson
P.S. Sorry for the long post...stonethrower got me started on a roll. :)
3rdside said...
This is a serious question...Why are there people with mics standing on either side of JP during the singing portion of the worship service? I could understand their presence if there was no choir...
A primary thrust of the Purpose Driven Church (PDC) movement is to dispense with traditional elements of worship that are viewed as off-putting to the lost, i.e., non-seeker-friendly. To that end the choir is typically replaced with a "praise team." Dr. Gaines simply hasn't had the chutzpah to follow though with the logical conclusion of disbanding the choir. (Thankfully, he does seem to have a real problem with follow-through.) The result is ludicrous and bewildering to visitors. Can anyone say their worship is enhanced by seeing eight people with microphones sans choir robes?
At the September 24th meeting, Dr. Gaines claimed he was not interested in the PDC movement and that he had not even read Rick Warren's book. That seems incredible to me. If he was telling the truth (sadly, no longer something we can assume), why hasn't he? Shouldn't a pastor want to understand a major church trend, compare it with scripture and if found wanting, be prepared to respond when it inevitably comes calling? That said, Warren's teachings have become subsumed into the larger "Church Growth Movement", which if SG hasn't actually read about, he has at least observed and decided to appropriate it. I don't know which is worse: Gaines' following PDC ideas deliberately or in ignorance. Either way, here we are.
I love my church,
Thanks - I didn't think that Dr Rogers actually liked it, but at that point, things were out of his hands. I know there were choir members that felt like they were no longer needed and left this area of service.
You know the history of the choir robe was to make each member of the choir equal, so as to not draw attention to the finery of some and the poverty of others - I guess that is no longer an issue.
jmo,
Thanks for sharing your opinion. Seriously.
I didn't get as much about a "public rebuke" as that the investigative team did not interview the primary witness/victim in the first place, even after multiple (five) requests on the part of the victim to do so. Did you catch that from the letter?
25+ years,
You've got me very confused with someone. I've called for all involved with the PW to be thrown in jail.
To call me a defender of the oligarchy is quite off base.
25+ said
Regardless of our position(s)we need to show love to one another. TO BOTH SIDES: the certainty of your "rightness" should not provide you with an excuse for meanness
Piglet says:
I appreciate your entire post but this paragraph I will try to take to heart because I have a great deal of respect for you and know you are right. :)
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