Good advice from "charlie fox" which I encourage you to read and heed:
"Certain posters OFTEN post for one purpose and one purpose only. OFTEN, their sole purpose is to be antagonistic. As long as y'all waste your precious time and talent feeding them, they will continue to play their game. If you ignore them, then they will soon go away. Y'all need to FOCUS, FOCUS, FOCUS on the problems at BBC and quit playing into their hands by playing their game. I know that it is hard to resist taking their BAIT, but you must RESIST THE TEMPTATION."
Today's news coverage:
The Commercial Appeal's coverage is here and here.
Channel 5's coverage is here.
FOX13's coverage is here, here, and here.
Channel 3's coverage is here.
Channel 24's coverage is here.
WREC Radio (AM 600) - The Mike Fleming Show which airs from 4:00 p.m. to 7:00 p.m. daily will likely have discussion. Live internet streaming can be accessed here.
The latest from Bellevue's site is here.
The latest EthicsDaily.com article.
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386 comments:
1 – 200 of 386 Newer› Newest»Question: Has Gaines spoken on camera to the media to date?
Well...here is my train of thought. I am amazed that he would have the 'gall' to enter the doors of the church again! Do you really think he would have the nerve? Where would be his shame? Really...
imaresistor said...
Well...here is my train of thought. I am amazed that he would have the 'gall' to enter the doors of the church again! Do you really think he would have the nerve? Where would be his shame? Really...
Where is your shame?
Where is mine?
--Mike
Some of you people are simply a disgrace to everything that is Christian. Not you, Mr. Bratton (we know each other from way back in the BSU Days, by the way)...
You'd much rather see Steve Gaines' head served up on a silver platter than you would any true reconciliation and forgiveness.
It's actually quite disgusting, and makes me ashamed to be associated with people who think like you.
Springer Spaniel
What if he asked to speak to the congregation and got on his face and confessed? then begged forgiveness and asked to be accountable for the rest of his life.... Promising never to have any ministerial responsibilites and promising to stay away from children and teens?
If he did this, he'd be forgiven. I personally have had to forgive him otherwise I can feel that seed of bitterness growing. Being an abused woman is no picnic, but the bitterness non-forgiveness can cause is so devastating. It's not worth hanging onto the past as long as the consequences caused by the sin are paid. OOOH, that's pretty good, don't ya think?
karen
Who here really doesn't want to see some repentance and reconciliation in this whole situation? I know I can't speak for everyone, nor would I want to, but let's not confuse passion for the truth with a thirst for someone's destruction.
My dear brothers and sisters:
Please allow me to expand and explain why this should have been dealt with in June.
If Dr. Gaines that taken the proper action then that was taken yesterday. None of this would be out there today.
He should have removed Paul, reported it to DCS and then provided assistance to the victim and the family.
The next Sunday he could have stood up before the congregaton and said we had to remove a minister this week for a high moral failure. He would NOT have had to reveal anyone's name.
Yes there would have been some talk. There always is but the victim and his dear family would have been spared.
There was no SavingBellevue nor blog at that time. Dr. Gaines would have been so far out if front his distractors they would never catch up. I would have hailed him as a hero.
But that didn't happen did it? And what do we have left? A church family that is very divided and hurting. We have brothers and sisters taking it out on each other here. We are ALL hurting over this one issue. NO ONE IS OR WILL BE A WINNER HERE.
It is like the comtempary christian song: "I can only imagine." What if? And that is why my soul cries out why? Why wasn't it dealt with swiftly and properly in June?
David Brown
SNAP Coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis
SpringerSpaniel said...
Some of you people are simply a disgrace to everything that is Christian. Not you, Mr. Bratton (we know each other from way back in the BSU Days, by the way)...
I run into more BSUers around here... Please e-mail me at your earliest convenience.
You'd much rather see Steve Gaines' head served up on a silver platter than you would any true reconciliation and forgiveness.
Unfortunately, I would have to agree--but it's important that while we aggresively dialogue with such people, we simultaneously encourage them to move away from such a mindset.
And I believe the preferred venue is, unfortunately, "on a pike," rather than "on a silver platter." Silver's hard to clean, you know... :)
It's actually quite disgusting, and makes me ashamed to be associated with people who think like you.
All the more reason to try and keep the channels of communication open, to encourage people to abandon the "politics of personal destruction" and rather engage in sober debate.
--Mike
socwork said...
Who here really doesn't want to see some repentance and reconciliation in this whole situation? I know I can't speak for everyone, nor would I want to, but let's not confuse passion for the truth with a thirst for someone's destruction.
Hallelujah and amen to that! We don't want people hung out to dry, but we do want TRUTH, TRANPARENCY AND INTEGRITY. What you do in the dark, defines who you'll be in the light.
Karen
Mike,
Thanks for that post back to Springer. We are not out of blood, we are for the truth. BTW, I know Mike from his BSU days as well - I can't drive a stick shift without remember Mike TRYING DESPERATELY to drive my car! :)
karen
Karen said...
...
It's not worth hanging onto the past as long as the consequences caused by the sin are paid. OOOH, that's pretty good, don't ya think?
Karen, it's not worth hanging on to the injuries of the past regardless of whether or not "consequences" have been paid to our satisfaction. That's why I'm always concerned whenever I read, hear, or see people who define themselves by a past event, particularly a negative one. Not that I consider you to be such an individual--all of us can have that tendency, which we should avoid.
Philippians 3
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
--Mike
Karen said...
Mike,
Thanks for that post back to Springer. We are not out of blood, we are for the truth. BTW, I know Mike from his BSU days as well - I can't drive a stick shift without remember Mike TRYING DESPERATELY to drive my car! :)
karen
Hey!
We got where we were going, didn't we??
:)
--Mike
Dear Mike I am defined by my past. I wish it weren't so. But I do praise the Lord for it and glorify HIM for it. Because of it, I am stong to do what I do today with victims. I wish I could share with you the emails I have received from other victims of this crime. It would break your heart.
I think the past shapes us up for our character of today.
But then that is just my humble opinion.
I love you brother,
David Brown
As for Biblical verses to stand on that, 2 Cor 1:3-7
Mike, I am bound to say this: The past only reminds the church that your pastor did not follow scripture in dealing with this situation months ago. Had he done so, everything would be different. This should give everyone sitting under his teaching pause.
You can 'move on' but that fact still remains. And it should be a wakeup call.
If that translates into 'heads on spikes' for you, then there is little I can do about your mindset.
Also Romans 8:28: It says ALL things work for good, that includes the bad too.
It is in how we chose to use those events that counts. And I say we use it for HIS glory.
Some of you are being very mean spirited to Paul W. That is not right. As for him worshiping at Bellevue or anywhere else, I would welcome him. We must never start guarding the doors to our churches to keep people that we don't like or agree with, NEVER.
Remember those words you have heard so many times from Dr. Rogers, hate the sin, but love the sinner.
Mike Bratton said...
Hey!
We got where we were going, didn't we??
Yeah, with WHIPLASH! ROFL!!!
karen
Most of us want a pastor and leadership that is held accountable by the people they serve, who are open and transparent because there is nothing to hide, who allow open business meetings so we all have a voice, whose judgement and integrity we can trust because they line up with scripture, who, along with the congregation, will draft an updated set of bylaws to protect the integrity of our church .
When will we stop endeavoring to secure these things?
I hope, never.
I would hope all members, regardless of their opinion of Steve Gaines would see these things as necessary for a healthy, Christ-honoring church.
Sunday's report,either way, will not put an end to our problems.
Mike said,
"Where is your shame?"
"Where is mine?"
Point well taken Mike. Thing is though...it isn't your name splashed across the headlines now is it? Nor is it mine. My shame and your shame is not the issue here right now.
We are talking about a man who, as a pastor, decieved his church for many, many years. I know all about forgiveness and I am sure you do too.
However, I also know about countenance. My question is simply how in the world can this man, Paul Williams, walk into Bellevue Church and look ANYBODY in the eye? I know I couldn't. I don't even know how he can look his family in the eye! His son...his wife. Dear me...he raped his wife's son; ever think about that one? For ANY man to do this is beyond my comprehension...but for a MAN OF GOD to do this is beyond my realm of reasoning at all.
How can he look his son in the face? How could he possibly return to the church? The damage this man has done is irreprehensible.
Obviously just my opinion...not likely to change. No more to say on the subject.
Paul Williams is no longer on staff.
Now we wait for two reports David Brown mentioned,that are likely to differ.
I hope the membership will move toward holding leaders accountable for their words and actions.
25+ has a great list!
Our problems CAN be worked out if people are willing. :)
MANY on this blog need to pay attention to David Brown and how he acts. I do not agree with him on everything, BUT that is ok. He seems to always be sincere and does not attack and I could go on to make a long list. We are to be different from the world. Please read this blog and tell me how it is different.
Mike, David and those just looking:
Whether PW returns and worships at Bellevue is up to PW. The scripture does call us to Love unconditionally. This is indisputable and I am willing to do so and am excercising this calling.
With this said, the scripture then calls us to attempt to restore those that are fallen (Matt 18). Said proscription is to do as follows:
1. Go directly to the individual and ask for:
A. Confession
B. Repentance
2. If this is rejected repeat step #1 in the presence of witnesses.
3. If he still rejects the call to repentance, then he is to be brought before the assembly, asked to repent and if he still refuses, then he is to be disfellowshipped.
We need to proceed to step #3 for both PW's sake and the preservation of the body of Bellevue.
I am not asking for PW's head. Rather, I am asking for discipline to be carried out so as to begin the restoration process of this brother and for the body of Christ to understand that God does not tolerate sin in his children.
This should be done in a solemn assembly, with no outsiders present.
The point of this discipline is to restore the individual and purify the body. There is no room for hatred and acrimony in this process. To allow such would be to rob all of us of the lessons that God would have us to learn from this.
While embarrasing and hard to do, we must follow God's proscription in this matter so as to preserve the umbrella of protection that God desires for us.
One other benefit of carrying out God's proscription would be that we demonstrate to the world that as believers we stand apart from worldly thinking and that we view sin as shameful to the body of Christ and that we seek to be puer individually and collectively before Christ.
The world will not understand this, but we don't have to pleasse the world.
I agree with Aslansown on this matter. I believe it would help the church body to accept and forgive Paul.
aslansown,
I agree with the exercising of Matthew 18. If he fulfils all of his responsibilities under that and we are assured that he has, then, according to scripture, there is no reason that he should not be able to worship with us. The only issue I have here is whether we will recognize true repentance or not. Remember, he has been on staff with a straight face and no remorse for all these years without a sign to anyone. He is a deceiver of the worst kind. The exercising of Matthew 18 would have to be such that we could trust that he is truly repentant and has made ammends to his son, the church and the Lord. I suspect there is more to the story than we are being told right now. There are still those who are trying to lay this at Dr Rogers' feet. Read the posts on the TV blogs - it is pitiful at the lengths people will go to in order to shift the blame. No matter how this is handled, the church will be divided because some see the truth in their compassion and some stand on the uncomfortable witness of God's Word whidh is only where the truth lies, with Him.
PSALM 130
A Song of degrees
1 Out of the depths have I cried unto thee, O Lord.
2 Lord, hear my voice: let thine ears be attentive to the voice of my supplications.
3 If thou, Lord, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?
4 But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared.
5 I wait for the Lord, my soul doth wait, and in his word do I hope.
6 My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning: I say, more than they that watch for the morning.
7 Let Israel hope in the Lord: for with the Lord there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption.
8 And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.
Mike Bratton said...
Karen, it's not worth hanging on to the injuries of the past regardless of whether or not "consequences" have been paid to our satisfaction. That's why I'm always concerned whenever I read, hear, or see people who define themselves by a past event, particularly a negative one. Not that I consider you to be such an individual--all of us can have that tendency, which we should avoid.
Mike, I am not so much defined by the abuse I suffered from my ex, but I am changed by it. I know that if a man ever were raise a hand to me, I know I wouldn't stand for it. Bye the way, my new husband (Sept. 22, 2007 - thank you!) is a wonderful Christian man and would never abuse me. But the point I'm trying to make is that my sin (not marrying a Christian man - being unequally yoked) cause a consequence (being in an abusive relationship - enduring a divorce) which thereby taught me a lesson (pray about who you marry, listen to your parents, follow the Holy Spirit when He tells you to flee).
karen
Mr. Bratton said:
That's why I'm always concerned whenever I read, hear, or see people who define themselves by a past event, particularly a negative one
Mr. Bratton,
I'm sure that you meant no harm by this statement, because you do not strike me as insensitive, however, those are just words. And people who have lived through childhood sexual abuse NEVER get over it. If only they could just snap their fingers and move on.
I once read an account of a 90-something year old woman who lay dying in a hospital bed, and before she died, she whispered her 'secret' to the nurse..It was the first time in her life she had EVER told anyone. She had lived with that pain and shame her ENTIRE life. I'm sure that she did not wish to hold onto that memory, yet where does one put a memory like that that is so traumatic?
Perhaps you would like to come to some of the dozens of incest survior support groups around town, and speak to the women who are DESPERATELY trying to move on from this horrible crime? If you could explain to them the process by which they discontinue defining themselves by this act,I'm sure that there would be no use for those support groups, not to mention, it would sure put a lot of psychologists out of business.
Again, I mean no disrespect towards you. But childhood sexual abuse DOES define who we are. It is a prism for which we see everything else in life, whether we even realize it or not.
When Paul Williams asks my forgiveness, he will have it. To this date, I don't recall him repenting.
May God bless you, Mr. Bratton, he has obviously given you a talent with the written word. I enjoy your posts, even if I don't agree with you. :)
Again, if PW was the only problem on the table, I think a lot of us could close up shop on this discussion and move on.
The problem is that the PW issue is merely one of the issues on the table here.
If the PW issue never existed, the problems many of us have with SG would remain.
And like I mentioned earlier, I don't think anyone wants a pastor's head on a platter here, and we are not powerful enough to ruin a person by some blog... If SG's life and ministry come to ruin, it will be due to the consequences of his own choices.
jmo
WELL said jcsuitt!
Many on here are VERY deceived and are a poison to Bellevue and to the Witness for Christ in general. THEIR "lists" claim that OTHERS should be removed from positions and this and that.
What about the ones on here spewing the hate??
I for one would not want many on here in ANY position of authority at Bellevue.
socwork said- And like I mentioned earlier, I don't think anyone wants a pastor's head on a platter here, and we are not powerful enough to ruin a person by some blog.
REPLY- The actions of those on here and elsewhere PROVE different. Please stop sugar coating things. You comment on not powerful enough is a cop out and is also ridiculous. You and others will be held accountable for everything you have done and all the harm you have caused, just like the rest of us.
I was just at lunch with a bellevue staff member and the manager at the restaurant came over and she asked where we went to church. We are both regulars there. We said Bellevue. She sat down and the next 10 minutes were interesting. I disagree with the staffer on several things he said and I spoke up. She said she doesnt understand why they kept him on staff when he did that. And then she said that she used to go to bellevue but left before all this. She said the same thing I feel...It is sad.
4545,
For once, I agree with one of your statements: We will all be held accountable for ever careless word we speak. Matthew 12.36
That's why I always stop and think before I post.
Proverbs 10:19
When words are many, sin is not absent, but he who holds his tongue is wise.
jcsuitt said...
Amazing...Do you remember a pole taken a few days ago when you all speculated that Dr. Gaines would keep PW on staff.
You are wrong. I just checked and 65% of the respondents believed Paul Williams would be fired.
You want to see another man's life ruined.
Absolutely not. We want the truth, nothing more, nothing less.
If Steve has done nothing worthy of resignation, the truth should back him up.
If he has nothing to hide, the truth will set him and Bellevue free.
I agree with Mike; in general we should not dwell on the past. But applying verses like Phil. 3:13 to present concerns is kinda like asking a wag "What time is it?" and he says "You mean now, or when you asked me?"
Not surprisingly, Phil. 3:13 is also the centerpiece of Dr. Gaines' current sermon series. We're apparently supposed to understand it to expunge any inconvenient facts we wish to leave behind. Let's press on; quit living in the past. Yeah, I know, anyone who sees that as self-serving simply isn't being spiritual.
I'm reminded of a scene in The Lion King.
Simba: I know what I have to do. But going back will mean facing my past. I've been running from it for so long.
[Rafiki hits Simba on the head with his stick]
Simba: Oww. Jeez... What was that for?
Rafiki: It doesn't matter, it's in the past.
Simba: Yeah, but it still hurts.
Rafiki: Oh yes, the past can hurt. But the way I see it, you can either run from it, or learn from it.
[swings his stick at Simba again who ducks out of the way]
Rafiki: Ha. You See? So what are you going to do?
Simba: First, I'm gonna take your stick.
After the reports are out and the dust settles, we need to get back to the core issues.
GREAT POST FROM 25+
Here are a few important changes that would help restore the trust of many members during these days of crisis in leadership:
I. Pastoral Accountability to the Congregation:
1. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... and any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
2. The giving records of the membership and the ministers on staff at Bellevue should never be for pastoral review in any shape, form, or fashion.
3. Due to concern for potential abuse, no church credit cards.
4. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
5. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members.
6. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
7. Immediate removal from office of ministers guilty of sexual immorality with immediate coordination with the appropriate authorities if any laws have been broken by a minister (no matter how long ago), including thorough investigation of the matter when the minister’s conduct may have affected other church members or their children.
II. Congregational Church governance:
Some of the congregation has awakened to the reality that our church has a set of "lay-elders," a close knit group of men who manage to be appointed to key positions year after year. The rest of the congregation needs to be awakened.
1. Those who are part of this lay-elder "power block" need to step down from positions of influence for a long time. Bellevue needs “new blood” in these key positions.
2. There needs to be the signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services for the church. These people should not be allowed to serve on committees that review bids for their services.
3. Congregational nomination of and election of all of the Board of Directors as called for in the 1929 bylaws.
4. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. **The current bylaws mention "monthly" business meetings! When were they changed??
5. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
8. Thorough communication with the Congregation for ANY capital project well in advance of any vote. Building prayer buildings or any other type of building should be brought through proper channels to the congregation for prayerful consideration--not coerced "rubber stamping." [By the way, Dr. Rogers taught us quite a bit about prayer. As a matter of fact, I believe all of the current buildings ARE prayer buildings already. He and Dr. Whitmire also taught us quite a bit about worship also... but that's another topic].
9. Bellevue needs to reject Warrenism fully and finally.
10. Higher standards should be put in place for the hiring of "ministers." Seminary training should be considered a normal prerequisite.
III. Treatment of ministers on staff at BBC and members:
1. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members.
2. The end of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members; and the end of signing non-disclosure statements. All ministers who have been pressured or asked to sign such non-disclosure statements should be released from them in writing by BBC! Former staff should be allowed to address the congregation and/or the deacon body either in writing or in person without any fear of reprisal regarding their exit from BBC. The congregation needs to know how their leadership has treated and is treating ministers who leave the service of our Lord through BBC.
3. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.
All in my opinion as usual.
We are to be “providing things honestly in the sight of all men” (Rom. 12:17). Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."
9:38 PM, January 22, 20
jcsuitt,
This is the poll to which you were referring. It appears that 65% speculated that PW would be relieved of duties.
Poll Results
There should have been no question in anyone’s mind as to how this situation should have been handled now or six months ago. I understand that perhaps for the past month the church may have been working out legal issues, but this should have been done 6 months ago.
The failure to take "ANY" action six months ago has confirmed a deficiency in leadership to some and caused others to question the abilities of leadership.
4545 said,
"I for one would not want many on here in ANY position of authority at Bellevue."
How would you feel if you knew some posting here are currently in positions of authority at Bellevue?
Some of them are.
I know and it is scary. Some claim Dr. Gaines and others are all out for money etc.
PLEASE!!!
If there are ministers that have strong convictions and are against Dr. Gaines, they should resign and find a new job. Some strong convictions they must have. To be willing to overlook these horrible things because of money and because of their jobs.
Is God in control or not?
I have a question:
If a staff pastor was getting a divorce would he remain on staff at BBC and if it came out that someone on staff had been divorced in the past and did not disclose this would he be allowed to remain on staff at BBC and if the Senior Pastor supported a staff member or desired to hire one who was getting a divorce and or was divorced would he remain as Senior Pastor?
Kat
In other news today,
?? Purpose Driven COWS !!??TEXT
Quote:
"Some have turned their lives around by realizing a higher purpose; so you can turn your herd around by realizing they don't just represent cattle. They represent food for people."
4545,
We can rest assured God is sovereign. He has it all under control.
Maybe those leaders who no longer support the pastor have been put where they are to ensure the truth is told. They have been given a responsibility to stand up for what is right.
Tim said...
In other news today,
?? Purpose Driven COWS !!??
Quote:
"Some have turned their lives around by realizing a higher purpose; so you can turn your herd around by realizing they don't just represent cattle. They represent food for people."
_______________
Another howler:
"If you can't find a reason to have cows, sell them all. But if you think about it enough to realize your mission and goals, just sell the ones that don't fit your reasons."
The past is important and definitely plays a major role in why you are where you are right now. However, the present is where you must focus your attention right now. The future of your church depends upon it. I have asked you several times to please do your homework...many of you already know exactly where you are, but many of you do not. Let me suggest that you do this. Go here which takes you to pastors.com, Rick Warren's website. You will have to register, but it is well worth any problem in doing so.
After you get 'here', to pastors.com, then go to "Transitioning Churches", then to "Step 6, Dealing with Opposition". When you are there, you will find one post after another from pastors or lay people to the same. It is full of the purpose driven folks telling others how to deal with opposition or resistors from getting them 'out of the gate' to 'shooting the wolves'. Yes, you heard me right...shooting the wolves. In fact there are many, many threads dealing with transitioning...read all you can stand to read in order to get a thorough understanding of what is going on in the churches. Dan Southerland responds himself as does Glen Sartain, and others with Transitioning, Inc. I have an example right here:
___________________________________
Originally posted by: beachpreach:
"It takes time, but once you've built a solid leadership team and have a few wolf killings under your belt, you learn to act swiftly the next time opposition stirs."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The reply:
"I had to learn this the hard way without any leadership team. The wolf-killing got done, I've got the scars to prove it. But, I LEARNED! and indeed, next time I will act swiftly."_
___________________________________
They are talking about how to get rid of resistors or opposition, which is what most of you are.
Please go to this website and read. And read. And read. There are many subjects here all relating to the purpose driven movement. Transitioning is your game however. Read.
You will learn.
Here's just some food for thought this afternoon...
I read a lot of talk on the blog about "lies" being spoken by certain blog posters. (On all sides of these issues... so I'm not picking on any one person here).
The definition of a lie is: a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood
Can we all agree on the idea that many of us on this blog do have pertinent information about many of these issues, but we can very easily have different information from each other (not necessarily conflicting information, just different). Just because none of us can see the big picture with all the details, doesn't mean that people are lying.
I think that might help some of us who would like to have civil discussions of these issues. Once you call someone a liar, any hope of profitable dialogue is gone.
Now, as a disclaimer, there may very well be people on here who are lying. In fact, I'm sure there are some on here who are playing games just to see whose buttons they can push. It's a blog... it happens.
Again, jmo.
Sorry...you'll need to create an account
here
Katherine,
Please do not equate divorce with child sexual abuse.
blessed is he who comes in the name of the lord.
"You and others will be held accountable for everything you have done and all the harm you have caused, just like the rest of us."
Don't crawl in the snake pit y'all. It's not worth it--these people are speaking to your rightful concerns and injury with seething contempt.
That's why I blew a gasket yesterday I suppose, that Karen, and I am a overcafeinated substitute teacher in the city school system. Sorry to be such a smart uh, mouth. I grieves me to have been offensive in the eyes of such a sweet spirit.
With no ill will directed towards those that would, to put it kindly, give the pastor and leadership the benefit of the doubt--no matter how egregious the fault--ask yourself why these brothers and sisters would frequent a forum they erstwhile denounce; and secondly, what is the purpose of their communications.
If considered, you may discern the benefit, or lack thereof, in engaging them.
Ah!
fed,
I think you aren't getting my point of using this example. I don't know a Baptist Church out there, unless it is extremely liberal, that would allow divorce with in the rank of its staff and if the Senior Pastor allowed it he wouldn't last. So if that is the policy of BBC, and I would believe it would be, what made this matter so hard to deal with? Why was the Senior Pastor so caught off gaurd and unable to do the right thing not to mention the other staff that worked with him for all these 34 years. If I were a member of BBC I would be very concerned about all issues regarding past and present leadership. BBC is known for its holding of the Bible as the cornerstone of how to live yet when it gets down to it the practice of it seems to not be practice. Sad day!
Kat
katherine,
I'm sorry, I misunderstood.
:)
All you folks with trashcans should really be grateful! :)
Here is my post as it was originally intended.
jcsuitt said:
But all in all SG has been grossly mistreated in all this.
Piglet says:
Please do not forget the staff, deacons, and especially Mark Sharpe who were never allowed a forum to speak.
Steve allows one side to be heard. HIS.
That is mistreating his sheep.
This could end with a fair hearing of BOTH sides.
Hi, Fedup! We missed you.
I can understand your taking a break. I was catching it from all sides last night! But I hung in there because I am one tough piggie demanding answers! :O'
Hope people are nicer to you this time around.
Springer Spaniel - I am wanting desperately to forgive him and have him fully reconciled to the congregation. However, he has not admitted to his arrogance and his lack of accountability and his lack of transparency. If he did this, why would there be any reason to want to see him leave? Sure he made some mistakes in the past. Hopefully he has learned from them. But if he has, he will acknowledge them, "come clean" so to speak of his sins of pride and arrogance, and I will be quick to support him and join you in criticizing others who want to keep beating the dead horse. Until that happens, we all have every right to keep the pressure on. Why won't he come clean on these admittedly minor issues so we can all move on? Is it pride? Or greed? or lust for position and power? that keeps him from doing so? And why, pray tell, would you say I am a disgrace for merely asking that the man be held accountable?
Piglet said...
All you folks with trashcans should really be grateful! :)
Amen!
4545 - I have asked you before and I will ask you again. Why should I fear being held accountable for merely demanding that the new leader of BBC, SG, be held accountable, that he not act unilaterally, and that he be transparent to his congregation. Why am I accused of hating him because I would like to see him "come clean", and admit that his pride and arrogance caused him to act in a manner that caused all this outcry. He needs to address each issue (admittedly some are minor, so that should make them easier for him to address), admit his sin and/or poor judgment, ask forgiveness, and then operate with humility and transparency from here on out. Then, any left accusing him after that would fit your description and would be held accountable. I would join you gladly and vigorously in SG's defense at that point. Until then, SG has to show wisdom and take the leadership in bringing about closure to all these issues.
Steve Gaines supporter LISTEN UP!
Steve Gaines harmed the body by ignoring the sin of a minister in June of last year. Had he handled it properly, the body would not be drug thru the media and mud today.
Holding pastors accountable IS NOT equal to hate. This is a HUGE problem of liberalization creeping into churches today. Sin is not really sin any longer if the means justifies the end. The watering down of the Gospel is sin.
Other ministers on staff who are upset with Steve Gaines don't need to go anywhere. Members who don't like what they see in Steve Gaines don't need to go anywhere.
The people who are saying if you don't like it leave need to leave and take Steve Gaines with you. If this sounds too tough for you, tough. Why should righteousness be sacrificed so Steve Gaines can continue to make $400,000 plus and the few elders of Bellevue continue to be able to spend tithe money with an attitude "it's none of your business how we spend the money"?
Most of the people I know who support Steve Gaines thought Paul Williams should remain on staff.
david s
A set of bylaws that are adequate for a church this size and a commitment to the Matt. 18 guidelines for addressing wrongdoing would go a long way in acheiving the best possible model, don't you think?
It just sounds like a cop out to say we're a big church so the leadership gets a blank check (pun intended)or a get out of jail free card.
jcsuitt said
...I would ask what was said in that meeting? Do you know? What was disclosed? How much how little?
Piglet says:
I heard Gaines say he was told 6 months ago and found out recently that it was not resolved.
He did not say that more information came to light, or that he was told something new.
At any rate, the story better not get changed because PW and SG were NOT the only ones there.
(no further clarification offered)
What is wrong with our country? If you questioned Bill Clinton, you were part of a right wing conspiracy. If you question George Bush or the Iraq war in any way, you are a "Bush hater." If you question SG's handling of some issues at BBC, you are labeled divisive and full of hate. This is America. Didn't this country get formed by people who dared question the King and questioned the state church? Didn't protestant denominations get formed by questioning the religious hierarchy? And now, we are not supposed to even question a "humble baptist preacher" who has only been in his new position for a short time? Why are you SG supporters doing this? It is okay for him to be questioned and for him to be accountable. Relax...SG can handle it, he is a big boy and is trusting the Lord. Pray that he will do what is right and put an end to this. He need not step down as pastor, he need only humble himself and come clean and begin tomorrow with accountability and transparency. SG, if you are listening, why won't you do this, brother. We love you and can't wait to be able to support you again. But you have to come clean. No more arrogance and pride.
Besides the staff who are being paid by Steve Gaines to publicly support him, where are all of deacons and teachers that publicly support Steve Gaines.
Mike Pruit and Ms. Billy Tapp are two that come to mind but where are the others? I don't think 4545acespringerjcsuittetc really believe what they are saying. We know what may happen to anyone speaking against Steve Gaines. Just go ask Craig Parker, Mark Sharp, Jim Whitmire, Rob Mullen, Ray Saba, Jim Haygood, Carol Pemberton, and many others that have spoken publicly against wrong inside the church.
Dear jcsuitt: Ok for the sake of arguing, why wasn't an investigation began in June? Wouldn't that have been the prudent thing to have done?
Why did he wait until it hit the this much hated blog before he took action?
Why did he wait until I reported it to DCS on Dec. 8th and my phone convesation that I received from David Coombs on Dec. 15th. to take action?
David Brown
SNAP coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis
forgiveandmoveon said...
Most of the people I know who support Steve Gaines thought Paul Williams should remain on staff.
Response: I'm not disagreeing with you...there may very well be those people. However, I know many SG supporters, including my entire family. And not a single one I've talked to thinks that PW should remain on staff, in any kind of position.
imaresistor
I tried the link and registered but did not see "transitioning churches" so I got lost....
scion,
Thanks for your comments.
It appears to me that right and wrong is defined in Bellevue now as whether you support Steve Gaines or not as if we've tossed the Bible out the window.
I wish we could take the names off the deeds and a lot of people would make different decisions on both sides. It's sad but true that depending on which side of Steve Gaines you are on depends on who you can publicly be friends with inside the halls of Bellevue. THIS IS SAD! That's a sign to me that Steve Gaines leaving will be the best thing for our church healing.
Piglet said...
"imaresistor, I tried the link and registered but did not see "transitioning churches" so I got lost...."
Okay...I will go back and walk through it and get back with you. I am just glad you are wanting to look at this. You won't believe it. Just hang on. But you did register, right?
ICU Nurse to Doc Bellevue said...
Examine the vital signs.
Don't be quick to disagree, just follow the diagnostic procedures.
On December 16, the pastor acknowledged being made aware of a "moral failure" in June. He did not elaborate on that "moral failure", so therefore no one knows what was truly said in that meeting. He also stated that he had been made aware several weeks prior to the announcement that this issue was not resolved.
The statement was carefully prepared and did not mention that there were any differences between the “moral failure” that he had been made aware of six months prior to being confronted with the fact this issue was not resolved. For the benefit of the doubt let’s assume that there was a mistake in that statement and it should have clarified the difference between the “moral failures” of each meeting.
With the assumption in mind that there was a difference between the “moral failures” of each meeting, assume that since the statement did not clarify that point, it became wide spread that there were not two distinct “moral failures” discussed in each meeting. Suppose that since the statement did not have the clarity to make that distinction that it was creating a great deal of confusion within the church. However, the pastor knowing of the confusion and outrage that was being generated by this misconception decided that nothing should be done to correct the communication.
Also with the same assumption in mind, imagine that a well-known leader in the Christian community was asked about his opinion of what should be done in the case of a Pastor failing to act on such a “moral failure”. Assume that the Christian leader was quoted as saying that such a pastor should resign for such a failure. However, the pastor still did not believe that the misconstrued statement warranted correction.
Assume that governmental authorities became involved and because of that misconstrued statement the pastor may be facing criminal charges. However, the pastor still did believe that there was a reason to correct that original statement.
It will require a great deal of faith in a man to believe that despite the overwhelming uproar from numerous sources that he would fail to clarify that statement.
Conclusion:
That pastor might not necessarily have a bad heart, but lacks the wisdom necessary to lead a church.
Now assume that the “moral failures” in each meeting were identical.
Conclusion:
That pastor might not necessarily have a bad heart, but lacks the wisdom necessary to lead a church.
6:57 PM, January 22, 2007
Mike and Scion, how did you get your pictures of yourself, I am guessing that was you, in the upper right hand corners of your posts?
well nevermind, the pictures are gone now. Hmmmmmm?
IMA,
There is a six part series, "How to transition an established church" by Chuck McAlister, on pastors.com that doesn't require logging in. Please email me the link to the one that you are referring to, because I haven't seen it.
You know my email address.
There exists a very good possibility that Steve Gaines may indeed stay at Bellevue for many more years.
However, his leadership as the head of the church will not be very effective if a remnant of people opposed to him remain at Bellevue.
If...and I ask this question delicately...if the time comes when it is apparent that Steve Gaines isn't going anywhere, and will remain as the pastor of BBC, then are all those opposed to his leadership willing to stop their protests, accept his leadership, or if necessary, go to another church?
The reason I ask this is because I believe that no matter how wrong SG might have been, our focus should be on the good of the church body, the body of Christ. And any continuing strife for months and years to come will only hold back the Christian growth of God's children at Bellevue. Also, the continuing strife and disagreements will only continue to make members of BBC poor witnesses to the city of Memphis.
Think about it. How can we show others how to bring everlasting peace and joy to their families when we can't bring it to our own church family.
There is nothing wrong with leaving an institution that is corrupt. If, after the investigation results are released, anyone here continues to feel that Bellevue's leadership is corrupt, then they should be willing to leave Bellevue. You wouldn't stay at a restaurant if they never brought your food to the table, would you? Why then would anyone be willing to stay at a church where they could not be fed the Word of God?
It would certainly make me wonder why the light suddenly went on if the original statement is corrected after six weeks.
Memphis,
My picture is available if you click on my name. The link is to my profile and my own blog. I uploaded my picture to it via a URL address.
If you go to your own profile settings, you can add a URL link to a picture in the box that is there for that purpose!
scion,
I will remain at Bellevue until the Lord removes me, either by giving me permission to leave, or HE physically takes me out of there.
I will stay and fight for the truth to be told in it's entirety, no matter how ugly or how divine it may be. If the majority of the congregation are still willing to hold onto Steve Gaines at that point, I will still remain until the Lord gives me permission to leave, which, knowing my convictions for honesty from the pulpit, would be quickly - and I will quickly shake the dust off my feet as I go out the door.
Dear friend-
I have heard all of the arguments and contraversy over the past few months and I refuse to remain silent on the issue! I do feel that we will soon see a resolve and our church will begin to heal. However, I wanted to share a video with you that I recently came across. It is not a video that those who have created the hateful propaganda sites would want you to see, but it is TRUTH and it is straight from God's word! Not to mention it is directly from the lips of my hero, Dr. Adrian Rogers! Please visit the link below and watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o929QwKAfGQ
I love Bellevue Baptist Church, and will continue to pray for her. Please pray with me.
In Him-
Brad Perry
Piglet...
Okay…after you register, look to the right side and you will see ‘Pastors Forum’ under My Account. Click on ‘Pastors Forum’. This is where you will type in your username and password. Type it in and this will take you to a ‘General Information’ Thread. Scroll down 18 rows to ‘Transitioning Churches’. This, of course, will take you to the ‘Transitioning Churches’ Thread. Go to the bottom of this thread and click on ‘Next”…this will take you to the second page. Then scroll down 7 rows to ‘Step 6-Dealing with Opposition’. Click on ‘Step 6-Dealing with Opposition’ and read the thread in it’s entirety. After you have read this, pick and choose whatever you want to read. I would suggest for starters, stay with the Transitioning thread and read that. When I first found this site, I couldn’t stop reading. It all started adding up. Let me know if you need more help in getting to this. Just a note…Dan Southerland is the author of the book, ‘Transitioning-Leading Your Church Through Change’ and also the President and Owner of Transitioning, Inc. These seminars are held around the country and at Saddleback. The book and business are endorsed by Rick Warren, obviously. He wrote the foreword for the book. I cannot stress enought how much reading Transitioning by Dan Southerland and The Purpose Driven Church would aid in your understanding of what is happening. This website I have just provided will too.
Brad,
I have seen this before and I will watch it again. I agree it is something we should do, but not at the expense of the truth. Dr Rogers stood for the truth at the SBC and was demonized for it, but he withstood it all and it was to God be the Glory. We need to make sure that that is our focus and not unity at all costs. Thanks for bringing it to us.
Mom4,
I definitely agree that nobody should just leave BBC without some guidance from the Lord. God will lead us wherever He chooses. All we have to do is keep our ears open, and obey.
I'm just saying that I don't think it would be wise to keep tearing Bellevue apart with our disagreements if the majority of Bellevue stands behind Steve Gaines.
Brad Perry,
Dr. Rogers never, never, expected unity apart from the truth. Never. I hate to burst your bubble, but I seriously doubt that you should attempt to use his call for unity in this situation.
Ace,
You mentioned that a staff member was saved through Kenneth Hagin. My brother-in-law is knee deep in Hagin's ministry. He graduated from Rema and swears that he never gets sick. My wife and I would love to meet with the staff member if he could educate us a little on the inner workings.
Brad Perry, thank you.
and I know it does not matter, but I do not like liver and onions!
What a great video clip, Brad. I'm unsure who you believe would be upset by that clip. I remember those sermons and I am proud to announce we are not divided over matters of taste. Instead we are standing up and demanding the truth because we know we cannot glorify Jesus by uniting around lies.
Dr. Rogers was for Bellevue's continued unity, but not at the expense of truth.
Dr. Rogers wrote:
1. It is better to be divided by truth than united in error.
2. It is better to be hated for telling the truth than to be loved for telling a lie.
3. It is better to stand alone with the truth than to be wrong with the multitude.
Charlie Fox...
Yes, Chuck McAlister's six part article saved my life. :) If he hasn't moved, he is in Arkansas, not sure exactly where in a big PD mega. This one helped me get my 'footing'. :) Paul Proctor guided me to it.
It has occurred to me this may not be what you want. You want the other don't you. I'll get it to you.
The one I just sent is good for copying and giving out to those who need help. It is already put together and ready to print.
I'll get back with you.
Ima
Scion said:
"...Think about it. How can we show others how to bring everlasting peace and joy to their families when we can't bring it to our own church family.
There is nothing wrong with leaving an institution that is corrupt. If, after the investigation results are released, anyone here continues to feel that Bellevue's leadership is corrupt, then they should be willing to leave Bellevue. You wouldn't stay at a restaurant if they never brought your food to the table, would you? Why then would anyone be willing to stay at a church where they could not be fed the Word of God?
...
______
Aslansown says:
Scion,
Let me ask you something. Why should we be willing to let a corrupt institution remain corrupt? Are we not to stand for that which is pure (Phil 4:8)? Should it not be wise, noble and JUST to seek purity for that same corrupt institution? Are you asking us to just leave Belleveue to it's own devices and become corrupt?
Luther battled for many years to reform the church from within. Is not Bellevue worth fighting for?
Please corret me if my impression is wrong, but are you asking us to leave so that there will be peace at all costs? Will you sacrifice integrity and truth so that you can feel comfortable?
Are we, as Christians called to be comfortable? Maybe this is the root of the conflict we are now engaged in. If so, then God can help us or curse us.
Perhaps you guys are being set up.
Perhaps SG reads this blog. Sound crazy? Well, we know he does not get his wisdom from scripture or else he would have followed scripture back in June: NO MATTER WHAT WAS SAID AT THE MEETING.
We already know that some are here just to say things like, "prove it", etc. That is their mantra because everyone knows there is hidden information and no one can prove everything without putting themselves out there to be treated like Mark Sharpe. Make no mistake...Mark was an exmaple and it worked. It brought some of the fence sitters (no pun intended) in line.
But, isn't that the problem? The secrecy? The attitude of it is MY church and I am going to do this MY way. There is no reason to keep anything from the Body. Back in June he should have announced from the Pulpit a minister was fired for immoral behavior and that is all I am going to say on the matter. Let us pray he repents. Period. Forget lawyers, media...just do what scripture says.
Here is a truth: The only Unity that matters in church is UNITY IN THE WORD. When it comes down to it, that is the only thing Christians have. The Word. The Holy Spirit speaks through the Word. It is the Sword of Truth. And that is the problem here. Some want to ignore the Word.
Now as to being set up. I believe this blog, the media and the outside investigation is directing their decisions...Not the Word. They have proven this. Can't see it? Then you are being willfully ignorant.
I think you will eventually hear some proposed 'reasons' why 1 Corinthians and Titus, Timothy and all the others were not followed. Mainly because they have been so freely discussed and exposited on this blog. You will be given some verses from somewhere else as a buffer. Many will buy it and say, see? But you will know if you know the Word that it is smoke and mirrors. You will probably hear the best Clintonesque sermon you have ever heard. Maybe even tears. I have seen this guy in action on video. He has it down pat. He uses emotion like a pro. And if I could, I would tell him this to his face.
Then again, he may apologize one more time and ask forgiveness. If he does, let him know you are looking for repentance...which is a change of heart that could take months to know if it is fruitful. Rick Warren tried this one on Joe Farrah. Joe Farrah pointed out how RW was going against scripture and RW responds, "I am sorry if I offended you". Farrah was too sharp for Warren. He told him he did not offend him but the Word of Christ. Warren still does not get it. (He can't afford to go there)
The other thing directing decisions is the outside investigation. The 'paid to defend Steve' staffers are really going to have to take one for the Gipper on this. (Guys, you will answer for it in heaven. Rev 21)
The apology will once again be turned around on the dissenters. The GCM playbook says to go on offense.
"Why can't you just forgive and move on? Why be so divisive? We love you but we cannot stand this division. You need to leave if you cannot support your leaders, you are being 'contentious'...blah, blah, blah". This is the Rodney King school of theology. I have seen it used many times and it works beautifully in this post modern world where truth is gray.
And they love to bring out the contentious, divisive brother scriptures when there is disagreement. Sometimes I think those are the only verses they know.
But in the end there is only one thing that matters: WAS SCRIPTURE FOLLOWED in dealing with the situation from the beginning. THERE IS NO GOOD REASON FOR IT NOT TO HAVE BEEN FOLLOWED.
Unity in the Word is the only unity or relationship that matters in the Body. Don't ever forget that because that is what keeps the Bride pure. Scripture divides. It will pit father against son. It divides families. It pierces hearts. It is offensive. That is why it is called the SWORD of TRUTH. That is just the way it is. But you have to know it. You have to be in it to know you are being led off a cliff by a wolf.
Don't follow Paul or Apollos. Follow Christ.
Go ahead and call me hateful. But I know a wolf when I see one. And he is devouring your church and being well paid to do it.
ima, You are right about Paul Procter, He has it down pat. He is also a refugee from the GCM and the Christian music industry (another whole conversation!)
I would like to encourage everyone here who is concerned about what is happening in your church to read every article. I promise you that you will not want to stop.
Here is the link...start at the bottom and read up.
http://www.newswithviews.com/PaulProctor/proctorA.htm
One more thing. All this comes from the Hegalian dialectic. It is called consensus and is used in business all the time. It is now used in churches. You may want to read up on it.
If you are familiar with group brainstorming techniques at work, you will recognize consensus. It sounds so fair. But the truth is the result is already predetermined by leadership. You just don't realize it. The act of consensus is either to bring along the dissenters or get them to be so uncomfortable that they leave. It works at work and it works at church.
But it is from the pit of hell. Jesus Christ and consensus do not go together.
ATTENTION PLEASE:
I would invite everyone to listen to this sermon. It appears that there has been a deliberate attempt to distort the sermon.
The very first point of the sermon about four minutes into the audio.
I. The Ground of Unity - TRUTH
DR.ROGERS-A UNIFIED CHURCH
It is shameful to misquote this sermon for such self-serving purposes.
I am getting some emails for details on getting to this site. I am just going to post it here for anyone who would like to look this up.
Go to
http://www.pastors.com
then to Pastor’s Forum to the right and register if you haven’t. After you register, log in. You will see a General Information Thread. You will see all kinds of interesting threads, but pass them all up and scroll down to the 18th row to Transitioning Churches. Click on it. Obviously you will come to the Transitioning Churches Thread. Go to the very bottom of this thread and go to the next page. Scroll down to the 7th row to ‘Step 6-Dealing with Opposition’. Start reading. You probably are not going to want to stop reading. After you have read this, pick and choose whatever you want to read. I would suggest for starters, stay with the Transitioning thread and read that. When I first found this site, I couldn’t stop reading. It all started adding up. Let me know if you need more help in getting to this. Just a note…Dan Southerland is the author of the book, ‘Transitioning-Leading Your Church Through Change’ and also the President and Owner of Transitioning, Inc. These seminars are held around the country and at Saddleback. The book and business are endorsed by Rick Warren, obviously. He wrote the foreword for the book. I cannot stress enough how much reading Transitioning by Dan Southerland and The Purpose Driven Church would aid in your understanding of what is happening. This website I have just provided will too.
Another one you need to read is this one by Bob DeWaay titled 'Redefining Christianity'.
Redefining Christianity
Esther said...
"One more thing. All this comes from the Hegalian dialectic."
You are exactly right Esther. This is brainwashing at it's best! Hitler used it as a matter of fact. Simply put, it is divide and conquer. Sound familiar? I have a paper of that by Paul Proctor...I'll find it and insert it here. If I can find it. :)
Everyone please do listen to the whole sermon.
And I agree... Truth is the ground of unity.
I know of many people who have become upset with Pastor Gaines because of lies that have been told about him.
A friend of mine was very angry that the Pastor had misused his church credit card. Guess what... there was no truth to that.
Thus unity was destroyed by that untruth.
At this moment on the "Saving Bellevue" website it is reported that the pastor
"He billed the church for Wife's birthday rooms at the Hilton for around $600.00
He billed the church for his daughters birthday party at the country club."
The implication of course being that he had the church pick up those expenses. That is not true. The person who posted that there knows that is not true. But he allows the false implication to be out there and thus unity is destroyed by that untruth.
I could go on....
Jesus said that people will know you are my disciples by your love one for another.
There is such a paucity of love being shown on this blog and on SavingBellevue that it is heart breaking.
So everyone do, please, listen to the entire sermon that Pastor Rogers preached... it is a great sermon.
Then show a little love, to each other, to our pastor, to our church, and to our Lord.
scion
Response: I'm not disagreeing with you...there may very well be those people. However, I know many SG supporters, including my entire family. And not a single one I've talked to thinks that PW should remain on staff, in any kind of position.
I to have talked to many SG supporters who think PW should have been left alone. The opinions and rationales were varied ("Who doesn't have something in their past?" "He who is without sin...", "what about Grace?", "it's under the blood", "I've known PW for 20 years, and he's a good man. Whom among us hasn't sinned?". There were some SG supporters that have admitted that PW should go, but it's a "grudging" acknowledgment, like to admit that means admitting that SG should have done something in June.
Just my observations. Feel free to accept or reject as you desire.
jcsuitt said...
The reality is this every response to my above comment is speculation at best. None of you FULLY know what took place in June nor should you for that matter. PW has been RIGHTLY let go. It should have happened many years ago and possibly even 6 months ago but without full details we are all speculating about truth.
For the record I do beleive and fully know what I am saying.
***
jcsuitt,
Who are you? Why should jcsuitt have the creditability for me or others to take you at your word or to believe that you know the truth? I am no longer a respecter of persons. Wow, I think that is biblical.
I have been let down by the best of them. Tell me who you are so I can add you to the list of great, mighty, wealthy, shrewd, and, oh yeah, “humble” men who greatly disappoint. You might as well be added to the list of people whom SG has spent their reputation. Beginning with the Deacons, Teachers, “Leadership”, …JCSuitt.
I am not trying to convince you feel as I feel in this situation. You however are here to convince everyone that all is well. You say you know! I want to believe you! I would like nothing better than to believe you! But you see, you are going to have to do better than just say “trust me” or my name is “JCSUITT”. Is your name better than Chuck Taylor? John Caldwell? Harry Smith? Jeff Arnold? Ted Minor? Brian Miller? Steve Tucker? Etc…You too will be held responsible for your words IF there is deceit to make your point. If in fact you tell half truth to make your point.
If you have a child who deceives you (please do not make me post definitions), it affects your trust in that child. The more you are deceived, the trust is lost and the privilege of that trust is gone. The only thing that restores the trust is for the child to show trustworthiness. In future situations to show that they can be trusted. This is what we are waiting for. This is what we long to see.
Please help me to understand where I am mistaken on these facts:
-Age restrictions on active deacons (Discussed in SG 1st 3 mths at BBC)
-Love Offering taken for Prayer Bldg that was not needed
-Love Offering taken for “Future Needs”
-Love Offering not spent for past 3 years (Refurb Gym, Security, Prayer Bldg, etc)
-Changes in service (and told no changes have been made)
-The Gardendale Video – I have seen it in its entirety. It is what is.
-Disrespect for our church – Dyersburg Revival
-Disregard for our Church Heritage
-Lies about the Fence
-Lies about meeting circumstances with Mark Sharp
-There are only a couple “Disgruntled” members
-SG tells church he love MABTS, then goes to threaten future support
-Lies about dream (either staff or SG)
-Deception of monies
-Discretionary spending
-People being told they are going to be killed if they do not agree with SG
I could go on. The point is that the problem continues to be the problem…Truthfulness. To him who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it s sin. We do not need a poll, or a group of men to know to do the right thing and be truthful. What we are looking for from our shepherd is the example of obedience. Immediate obedience, just as we are told from the pulpit. A Leader by example.
If I communicated with my wife, apologized to my wife or made excuses to my wife the way that SG has to the congregation, I would be in divorce court.
The facts are that we are all sinners and all fall short, SG included. However, for some reason, there are those that would have you believe that it is impossible for God’s man, God’s anointed to lie. I will prove they do…ask their wives. This does not make them any less worthy than the rest of us. However, we are looking for honesty and integrity from the pulpit.
We do have sins that disqualify us from blessings (ex: Moses, David)
It has just been insulting to see what has and is being done and then being told that we do not see what we see. That we have no discernment. This is not about SG. It is about leadership. Leadership that was deceptive from the time they determined to change the Culture of Bellevue Baptist Church. The deception to keep it from the congregation knowing we would not vote for a pastor (or committee) that would take us down this path. Bellevue Baptist Church was Hi-jacked. The deception started before SG ever got to BBC. We were taken over from the inside out. Who would have ever thought that the men who served Dr Rogers, would speak so badly and push him aside so easily?
It is not my fault that I have lost trust in our leadership! I did not want to lose trust or be sick to my stomach over these many months! I did not set out to disagree! I argued or pleaded with others as you do that everything was wonderful until in good conscience I could no longer lie. These men ripped their trust right from me!
JCsuitt, 4545, MEmphis and all you others. Tell us who you are so by your reputation, we can all know that you are exactly right.
That being said, I love Jesus, I love BBC and I still love some of these men who hi-jacked my church home. Thank God that HE is on the throne and not us.
4545 wrote:
"Many on here are VERY deceived and are a poison to Bellevue and to the Witness for Christ in general. THEIR "lists" claim that OTHERS should be removed from positions and this and that.
"What about the ones on here spewing the hate??"
Uh... er... hmmm...
IMA said...
Yes, Chuck McAlister's six part article saved my life. :) If he hasn't moved, he is in Arkansas, not sure exactly where in a big PD mega.
REPLY:
He is still at The Church at Crossgate Center in Hot Springs, AR.
This is the church that he wrote about in that 6 part article "How to Transition an Established Church" that is posted on Rick Warren's Pastors.com. It was formerly Second Baptist Church Hot Springs before he gutted it.
I got your emails. Thanx a million.
Firstly, I would like to address some of the responses posted with regards to my post about Dr. Rogers calling for a unified church.
A. What truth are you "demanding?"
-Jesus said, "I am The Way, The TRUTH, and The Life..."
-Has Dr. Gaines or any other member of the pastoral staff deviated from Jesus' teachings?
B. What physical (not rumored) evidence do you have to support ANY of allegations you have made against the "congregationally approved" leaders of Bellevue aside from those relating to cosmetic changes within the church?
-All of this discord is a direct result from pursuing a "truth" that well may not exist!
-Because the "truth" you are searching for may not exist, you are attempting to create false truths in the minds of God's people in order to achieve your goal of ultimately ousting the senior pastor of one of the nation's greatest churches!
-Woe to you if your heart is not bound by an everlasting desire to find "Ultimate Truth" that may only be realized in the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Secondly, I would like to post a letter for all to read. I must first admit that when I called these individuals "revolt leaders," I was entertaining an emotion and it was wrong. However, the substance within the body of the letter came directly from my heart. Please understand, I HAVE RECEIVED NO RESPONSE FROM THIS LETTER.
Subject: Letter From A Concerned Bellevue Member
Jim Haywood, Mark Sharpe, Riad Saba, and other revolt leaders-
Bellevue Baptist Church has a long lineage of faithful ministers of the Gospel of Jesus Christ! Immediately after the church UNANIMOUSLY confirmed Dr. Steve Gaines as pastor, our beloved pastor emeritus Dr. Adrian Rogers made the comment to the congregation asking the pastor search committee, "What took you so long; I knew this was God's man all along!" It is unfortunate that a few members with your legalism, sickening blogs, and shameless sinful tactics have made such a brazen attempt to overthrow a humble pastor! Your efforts are born from sinful hearts. Think where we would be today if Dr. Gaines had come to Bellevue and changed nothing about the physical appearance of the church, including order-of-service. I know in my heart we would NOT be here. There would be no savingbellevue.com and I would not be writing you this letter. The simple fact is, that you simply have no taste for the stylistic changes Dr. Gaines has facilitated within our church. It is sad to see a man who I have set by countless times in the choir loft at Bellevue so disgrace the foundation on which our church stands. The way you have used Dr. Roger’s name to perpetuate your accusations is a treason against our beloved pastor emeritus and our people. I could only imagine what course of action Dr. Rogers would take if he were alive to defend himself today. How clever the way you are now allowing satan to have glory that should be given to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! If God above has allowed Dr. Adrian Rogers a glimpse of what you are doing to his beloved Bellevue, he is in the heavens weeping as our Lord is at your sinful pursuits.
It is quite interesting to see you titling your audio clip pages with titles such as “Elder David Coombs.” If I am not mistaken, David Coombs has NEVER received a title by Dr. Steve Gaines, or by the congregation of believers at Bellevue Baptist Church as “Elder David Coombs.” How clever a way to allow satan to slip his clingy hands into your hearts and use you for the destruction of one of God’s most powerful churches! Is it in fact you and your “followers” who are attempting to push Bellevue to an “Elder Led” form of church government? Are the words of your mouth, and the meditations of your heart acceptable before a Holy God? I submit to you, they are not! The “scandal” we are experiencing at my beloved Bellevue is not one from the pulpit, it is one being composed and perpetuated by you and your hardened hearts.
As for the recent Paul Williams issue…if we think back to six months ago, when Dr. Gaines counseled with this minister, he had only been pastor of the Mid-South's largest church and one of the largest churches in the Southern Baptist Convention for a mere few months. He may have not handled it in the "correct" way, however, I have no doubt that he handled it in the way he felt the Lord had led him. Dr. Rogers had around 34 years with Bellevue to learn and grow. The church we now know as Bellevue was not the Bellevue Dr. Adrian Rogers began leading. Dr. Gaines stepped into a 30,000 member church where as Dr. Rogers began with a MUCH more modest number of members and as the church grew, he grew in wisdom and integrity. Are you expecting Dr. Steve Gaines to have the level of wisdom, leadership skills, and discernment that was apparent in Dr. Rogers? That is IMPOSSIBLE to expect of ANYONE! Dr. Gaines has only been at Bellevue for 1 year and a couple of months. He has a long way to go to achieve the wisdom, understanding, and leadership of a hero like Dr. Adrian Rogers.
The Bible says, "Do not judge, or you too will be judged." It also says, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone..." I am not implying that I have embraced all of the "cosmetic changes" that have been made to the church since Dr. Gaines has become pastor; however they are only "cosmetic" and have not at all compromised the Gospel of Jesus Christ! It is well known that a proper practice is to ALWAYS QUESTION ATHOURITY. If we did not, we would be ruled by a Nazi government and would have no freedom. Question authority to find that motives are pure and just. DO NOT attempt to overthrow authority on the mere intuition that motives are not just and pure. Until you have substantiated evidence of unjust or impure motives, the best policy is to not imply that unjustness or impureness! That is what you are sadly doing to Bellevue, implying incorrect motives with your minority of people who will be dealt with by "the Judge" himself! This too shall pass and the question I would ask anyone from Bellevue is, "when this passes, will you be souring in your own self-righteousness, or will you be focused on our future and the will of our Lord Jesus Christ?" Looking forward, Bellevue has a beautiful and fruitful future! As for those of you who have an agenda to overthrow the Bible believing, God fearing, Christ honoring leadership
of one of America's greatest churches, God knows the meditations of your hearts and will bless or condemn accordingly! I love my church and am committed to pray for her. Please renounce your attempts, fall prostrate before our Holy God, ask Him to BLESS Bellevue, and ALWAYS remember that Bellevue Baptist Church EXISTS for the purpose of: Magnifying JESUS through worship and the Word, moving believers in JESUS towards maturity and ministry, and MAKING JESUS KNOWN TO OUR NEIGHBORS AND THE NATIONS! Are your attempts perpetuating the purpose of Bellevue, or crippling her from attending to her purpose?
In HIS name, and for HIS glory!
Lastly, I would like to ask each one of you to internalize and meditate on the last statement in the above letter. "Are your attempts perpetuating the purpose of Bellevue, or crippling her from attending to her purpose?"
Love In Christ,
Brad Perry
SoundGuy55@aol.com
david s,
The son met with and confronted SG about the situation. SG had a couple of weeks after that meeting and still had not acted. At that point someone began to broadcast the information on the blog. Once it was broadcast on the blog it was no longer possible to ignore. I am not sure that anything was done until David Brown began investigating and questioning the church about the stituation.
david s...
IMHO...the problem is PD and SG. Not one or the other...but both. And probably PD Emergent to boot.
About Dr. Rogers...I just simply would not know. I do know he introduced or lead a study on the 40 Days of Purpose, or so I have read. I heard him preach a lot of sermons, but never considered any of them to be watered down, felt needs, or self serving. He is now deceased and cannot defend himself against any allegation so I lever none. However, I do think I am correct in saying he never did climb a fence surrounding a gated community clearly marked 'no tresspassing' to pay a visit to Mark Sharpe whom he called Hezbollah. Never did hear him making condescending remarks about the membership at Bellevue when he was speaking elsewhere. Never knew of or heard Dr. Adrian Rogers doing many of the things Dr. Steve Gaines does. So...that is about all I would have to offer to follow up your conversation. I think one had integrity...the other lacks it.
Are you a purpose driven pastor? What would you have to offer on Rick Warren...your opinion? I would be interested in hearing.
Ima
From Channel 5's website:
http://www.wmcstations.com/Global/story.asp?S=5979805
The President of the Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary says his request that the Chief Pastor at Bellevue Baptist Church step down was misunderstood.
The request came in the thick of a spiraling scandal over allegations that a minister at Bellevue had admitted sexually abusing a child 17 years ago and that Gaines had waited six months to tell church members about it.
In a letter from Spradlin on the Mid-American Baptist Theological Seminary website, he explains his statement was misunderstood. Spradlin said he did not have enough information to make a judgement specifically about Pastor Gaines.
Just yesterday Bellevue Baptist Church fired the minister in question, Paul Williams. DCS is still investigating.
Brad Perry said...
He may have not handled it in the "correct" way, however, I have no doubt that he handled it in the way he felt the Lord had led him.
Response:
Brad, if you had to handle this situation, would you break the law and not report the child molestation and hide it from the congregation for 6 months?
scion,
I want to address your 4:24 comment.
I understand exactly where you are coming from, however, as aslansown points out, I feel you are missing some important truths.
However, his leadership as the head of the church will not be very effective if a remnant of people opposed to him remain at Bellevue.
While it may be true that his leadership isn't very effective, but I would argue the responsibility falls on him and his relationship with the Lord and the congregation, affected by his own attitudes and behaviors. History is full of leaders who effective in spite of opposition. Some might say opposition made them more effective, for several reasons. Not the least the increased accountability.
If...and I ask this question delicately...if the time comes when it is apparent that Steve Gaines isn't going anywhere, and will remain as the pastor of BBC, then are all those opposed to his leadership willing to stop their protests, accept his leadership, or if necessary, go to another church?
Why should they? Should the colonists just accepted British rule in 1776 because Parliament and the King refused to listen? Should Martin Luther just have "asked nicely," and then left when it became clear the Pope was corrupt?
Should Dietrich Bonhoffer simply said "Yes Sir" (or Heil Hitler) when told to get in line? I could go on and on, but history is full of these examples. If "these people" really feel they are on the side of truth, then I would argue they would be morally wrong to "just leave".
The reason I ask this is because I believe that no matter how wrong SG might have been, our focus should be on the good of the church body, the body of Christ.
Is it not true that to focus on the body, means working to purge it so it's a clean vessel? Again, how is unity in error good for the church body? Any counselor will tell you that a marriage where one spouse is "passive" and quietly accepts certain behaviors in the name of unity is a timebomb waiting to go off. It's worse, because the tension builds over time.
And any continuing strife for months and years to come will only hold back the Christian growth of God's children at Bellevue.
Doesn't have to be this way. Conflict can produce growth, if handled Biblically, not to say maturely, professionally and "fair" to the minority. Things the church administration seems unwilling or unable to do at this point.
Also, the continuing strife and disagreements will only continue to make members of BBC poor witnesses to the city of Memphis.
This is a common argument, and I'll say to you what I say to others. The "World/City of Memphis" already knows that we aren't perfect. I mean common. How many "Swaggarts and Haggards" do their have to be to drive that point home? Closer to home, there are former BBC members scattered all over this community that tell stories of how they were wounded and 'thrown under the bus' by/at BBC. I've had some vigorous conversations with some of them over the years.
The World knows we have conflict just like They do. What we have the opportunity to do is show how we are different in the way we resolve that conflict. How we can disagree without being disagreeable. That is what is lacking here. Quite frankly, the church leadership is the one with the ability to resolve all this, and has for getting on a year now, refused to do anything but stonewall, seek to maintain majorities, ignore and hope it goes away, isolate resistors, ex-cetera, ex-cetera, ex-cetera (apologies to Yule Brenner in the King and I)
Think about it. How can we show others how to bring everlasting peace and joy to their families when we can't bring it to our own church family. Only God can bring this to our families and church families. Which is why we should be constantly seeking Him in all this.
There is nothing wrong with leaving an institution that is corrupt. If, after the investigation results are released, anyone here continues to feel that Bellevue's leadership is corrupt, then they should be willing to leave Bellevue.
I'm glad that my friend David Kustoff and the rest of the U.S. Attorney's office here in Memphis doesn't feel the same way you do. Just like it's his responsibility to fight corruption in our local governments, it's our responsibility as Christians to fight corruption in our Churches.
You wouldn't stay at a restaurant if they never brought your food to the table, would you? Why then would anyone be willing to stay at a church where they could not be fed the Word of God?
Ignoring the fact that the Bible has plenty to say about keeping the Lords house clean, Jesus would tell us to continue to go to that restaurant. "Forgive 70 times seven/turn the other cheek",etc. He said.
To conclude, I really take exception to the “Unity and Peace” at all costs philosophy. That’s been the way it’s been at Bellevue for too long. Look where it has taken us. I would say this conflict is much more intense because of the “clamping down” of dissent over the years.
Brad Perry,
It is evident that you honestly believe that everything is over cosmetic changes. You could not be further from the truth.
I have already answered the question of "throwing the first stone". There is a vast difference between stoning someone to death and requiring truthfulness from them.
I should add also that the other scripture which you have tortured,"Judge not lest ye be judged" goes on to say that you will be judged by the same judgement by which you judge. Provided that the judgement is based upon the Word of God there is not a problem with that.
Consider this scripture;
I Corinthians 6:1-4
1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
In light of this scripture how has the situation with PW been handled. It certainly has not been in accordance with scripture, but rather upon the advisement of legal council.
Your final question is fairly interesting. Bellevue has been crippled by the sin in the camp. It has been amazing how so many in leadership and authority have attempted to side step that sin and ignore it. It is high time that issues no longer be painted as gray and that they be viewed as either black or white. Tremendous revival and restoration can occur when we no longer embrace gray areas.
Finance Guy Said...
Doesn't have to be this way. Conflict can produce growth, if handled Biblically, not to say maturely, professionally and "fair" to the minority. Things the church administration seems unwilling or unable to do at this point.
Response:
Your right. Sometimes I think God allows conflict to get us to have a closer relationship with HIM. I know for me personally, I have gotten much closer than I have been in recent months.
Brad Perry posted:
It is unfortunate that a few members with your legalism, sickening blogs, and shameless sinful tactics have made such a brazen attempt to overthrow a humble pastor! Your efforts are born from sinful hearts.
Brad,
Please tell me where I have missed the humility from SG. Was it from the pulpit when he misled me about the premise for the fence fiasco. Was he humble when he bashed BBC to 2nd Baptist in Union City. ( He did say that BBC was clapping for him like they were at a football game) Humility? Was he humble when he said from the pulpit that he "loved and respected Mike Spradlin", while one of his right hand men was at that very moment trying to rally his troops to have Mike admonished or even fired? Humility and integrity? I don't think so.
Legalism? Telling the staff at BBC that if you don't tithe, your next paycheck will be your last. He also said in that meeting "what I expect I inspect" Isn't that legalism at it's worse?
brad perry
Gaines is anything but humble.. I agree he's been taken down a notch or two by having to apologize for his haughty statements to other churches, climbing the fence, etc., but he holds the opinion that he is above accountability to anyone at BBC and has stated thus.
I expected changes when he came, and at first my opinion was that it was Jamie who had left us as a servant and come back to us very full of himself.
Many months passed and I can't say I was ever impressed with the man's preaching but I was giving him time to win me over.
When I heard names of people I knew being drug through the mud,I decided to find out for myself.
You see, Dr.Gaines had not proven anything to me. I did not know him but I did know these other people who were leaving, being fired, or
demonized.
Taste had nothing to do with it. That is a distraction from the real issue.
He, to this day, will not allow Mark Sharpe and these other men to have a meeting over issues that can easily be settled if the parties involved are present. Is it guilt or arrogance?
We have a gestapo atmosphere at our church because a man wants to insulate himself and protect himself from his sheep.
I have not met Gaines and I have not seen him having his tantrums but I know people who have. Why do I believe them? Because they have never lied to me, have nothing to gain, have been members in good standing for many years, and I've seen outward evidence of the pastor's arrogance in the pulpit when I am sure he is putting his best foot forward.
He lied to us about where he would be many Wed. nights. That blew any trust I might have ever had to find that he was leaving his sheep on Wed. and moonlighting at other churches.
I never expected Gaines to preach as well as Dr. Rogers,or even to have his discernment but I did hope for humility and integrity. I don't think we should settle for less.
And I DO think it is for HIS glory and HIS purpose that we demand nothing less.
Until he humbles himself to allow those who disagree with him a hearing I will believe he is arrogant and/or has much to hide.
I would be a fool to believe that several dozen people are lying to me and poor ole Steve is just a victim.
jcsuitt wrote:
"35% of you believed PW would continue on staff at BBC and 9% believed it would be in the same position! They are amazing numbers. No one could honestly believe he would be kept on staff. but roughly 250 people believed this would be the case. My point is simply this. For anyone to truly believe he would be kept on staff is a person who is blinded to reality and is willing to believe SG and his "cohorts" will do ANYTHING they want the way they want regardless of who it will hurt and destroy. I say emphatically that is not the case at all."
I will admit I was among the 35% who "honestly" thought PW would be back in some capacity. I was wrong (and glad I was).
After some concerned deacons approached Steve Gaines about the PW situation and were told "I'm not accountable to the deacons," what should we think? Does he believe he's accountable to anyone? Or is he determined to do what he wants to do regardless?
What if this were the poll question, and it was July 2006? The question: Do you believe that your pastor, the associate pastor, and the current and former deacon chairmen would ever climb over the fence surrounding a gated community that was posted with "No Trespassing" signs to intimidate a church member and deacon who had asked the pastor to meet with him to discuss some concerns he had and who was planning to meet with a group of fellow church members later that week? I bet 99% of the respondents would have said "no." I certainly would have.
If you'd like to see a really interesting poll, check out this one.
scion, brad perry:
You 2 should be teaching church growth classes. You give Rodney King's "Can't we all just get along" speech a run for it's money.
To whomever it may concern;
From the Commercial Appeal:
"Contrary to the amateur legal advice Rardin has read on some of the Bellevue-related Web sites, the statute of limitations doesn't apply, even if this offense occurred 17 years ago."
Just a simple FYI.
I wonder if there would be a difference in the tone and/or direction of the conversation on the blog if between now and Sunday, discussion was limited to Bellevue members only. Not meaning any disrespect to folks who are outside our congregational membership who post here regularly, because I find myself challenged and drawn deeper into the Word by some of the things they say. I'm just curious as to whether anyone else thinks that, as this is a profoundly serious "family matter" and we need to be seeking God's face in unity about the decisions before us, it might be beneficial for us to close ranks just a bit. Some of the comments made by those who are not BBC members seem to inflame and intensify already-raw emotion, and I just wonder if that is productive to the matters at hand.
I especially appreciated David Brown's post from this morning and the Christ-like spirit he displayed in what he said. Others have been very gentle and loving, and I sensed a real longing from many on both sides to see us move solidly toward reconciliation. Then the tide of opinion seemed to change this afternoon and we've gone "at each other" more than once.
Just thinking out loud. I may be the only one who feels this way, and if so, I don't wish to be taken apart over it. I probably won't be around to read any posts back until morning, as I'm heading off to try to listen to President Bush ...
Let's pray for our nation. I know we are all praying for our beloved church. And let's not forget, especially, to pray for each other.
Liberty wrote:"Severance Package B in which you will receive the following Y benefits, with stipulations that you nor any of the members of your family will ever file criminal charges against Steve Gaines or XYZ Baptist Church, and that you and all of the members of your family will never file a civil suit against the Senior Pastor who covered up your crime, or XYZ Baptist Church."
This is exactly what I think happened in some variation. Perhaps it includes the son signing something and that took some persuasion. This scenerio happens more than people think. I have seen it where people are fired and told they will get three mos pay if they sign a document listing things they did not do and promising not to sue.
Guess what? When people have a mortgage with kids, they sign. There is NO unemployment from churches. That three mos is all you get. The worst part of it is you don't get any time to think about it in most cases I have seen. It is right then or nothing.
Another variation is that there was something agreed upon with PW to protect Gaines.
In PW's case, getting 6 weeks paid leave like this is pretty rare in with such a reprehensible sin. Legally, they could fire him on the spot 6 mos ago with no severence. So why didn't they?
Why speculate on this? Because the way this played out does not add up. Both scripturally and even strategically.
Question: Is it possible that SG did not come forward because he found out that the people in positions at the highest level of leadership actually knew about PW's transgressions 17 years ago? Who were these people?
What a shame that they and Paul Williams made the decision to cover it up.
Spiritual leaders shouldn't hide from public accountability. The world loves to see failure inside the church.
This is another reason why Steve Gaines has failed the test of accountability. Who is he surrounding himself with? Is there any man who is willing to give Steve Gaines Godly advice or is it just that Steve Gaines listens to nobody?
I can think of two major blunders that involved other ministers on staff and deacons who were in the presence of Steve Gaines. Chuck Taylor, John Caldwell, and Mark Dougharty were all with Steve Gaines the evening they pulled up to a gated community, parked their car, got out and decided to trespass over a fence clearly marked "no trespassing". Did any of these men say this isn't a good idea? Perhaps they did and Steve Gaines said I answer to nobody!
Six months ago when PW came to Steve Gaines, confessed, and perhaps offered to step down, what did the other men in the room who are ministers and leaders say? Did they advise Steve Gaines to do the right thing or did Steve Gaines say I answer to nobody?
A Pastor leads with integrity not because people are watching but because they are accountable to God.
"Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for; through the fear of the Lord a man avoids evil.
Prov. 16:6
Brad Perry wrote: "He may have not handled it in the "correct" way, however, I have no doubt that he handled it in the way he felt the Lord had led him".
Brad, With all due respect, that one sentence negates anything else you wrote. That is not scriptural because the Lord never leads us to do anything contrary to what is in scripture. Your pastor did not follow scripture. I am not trying to be mean, I am trying to lift up Christ by honoring His Word. Please, study the Word. I want to weep when I read things like this. We have just let our Bibles collect dust.
SadTroll said...
Question: Is it possible that SG did not come forward because he found out that the people in positions at the highest level of leadership actually knew about PW's transgressions 17 years ago? Who were these people?
What a shame that they and Paul Williams made the decision to cover it up.
Sad troll,
You obviously did not know the integrity of the highest in leadership 17 years ago. The leadership did not start to deteriorate until Mark Dougharty more recently took the place of Bob Sorrell as associate pastor. At that point, Dr Rogers was "sheltered" from the day to day business of the church. His primary goal at that time in his life was the ministry and the business end was under the supervision of Mark D., who has apparently failed miserably. Be careful who you attack or accuse, unless you have hard facts on paper with notarized signatures AND witnesses of know integrity that you are willing to bring forth. Anything can be fabricated - even receipts and legal documents. If you have doubts of Dr Rogers' integrity, you did not know him and worse yet, you did not listen to his messages and heed his call to verify everything by the Word.
"Regulars," more of you are slipping back into bomb-throwing, heads-on-pikes mode, which is the last place any of you should want to be.
--Mike
mjm wrote: I'm just curious as to whether anyone else thinks that, as this is a profoundly serious "family matter" and we need to be seeking God's face in unity about the decisions before us, it might be beneficial for us to close ranks just a bit. Some of the comments made by those who are not BBC members seem to inflame and intensify already-raw emotion, and I just wonder if that is productive to the matters at hand."
mjm brings up a very interesting point. Something I really had to change my thinking on as I got deep into the Word. What is the Body of Christ? What is the 'Church'. Finding the answers to this really has furthered my walk and opened up my fellowship with so many believers.
We really do become attached to our 'buildings' don't we? I know I did. I am not saying a building is not important but I belong to the Body of Believers who meet in a tent in India. Did you ever wonder what 'Church' Paul became a member of? :o) The answer is easy: The church that worships Jesus whether it is in the catacombs or at Lydia's house.
Someone please complete this sentence for me: Steve Gaines to congregation next Sunday night, "Folks, the reason that it was not appropriate for me to take any action against PW in June 2006 but now in January 2007 it is appropriate to fire him is ______"
Somebody please take a stab at writing an explanation that is plausible and defensible. I honestly can't think of one.
mjm,
I understand what you are saying, however the family of God is all of His children. What happens at Bellevue has a tremendous ripple effect for all Christians, at home and around the world. This is also a major event in the SBC and may prevent us as a church and as a convention from following the lead of the Church Growth Movement and the PDC that is retching the life out of the New Testament Church on this very day, both here and abroad. I welcome the input of strong Christians no matter where they are from. We need strong servants of God here, those who knew Dr Rogers and benefited from his life and wisdom need to be heard loud and clear. It is time this farce of leadership came to a grinding halt.
memphis wrote:
"Mike and Scion, how did you get your pictures of yourself, I am guessing that was you, in the upper right hand corners of your posts?"
Must have been a temporary glitch in the system. I turned that option off the first 30 seconds this blog was up!
NBBCOF
Mike Bratton said...
"Regulars," more of you are slipping back into bomb-throwing, heads-on-pikes mode, which is the last place any of you should want to be.
--Mike
Sorry Mikie,
I don't see anyone attacking anyone on here right now - (your idea of attacking is throwing bombs and chopping off heads?? - that's a little harsh). We are expressing our opinions just like you are, sometimes they are strong, but with good cause. Sorry if it offends your sensibilities.
Have a good evening.
Lindon said, "We really do become attached to our 'buildings' don't we? I know I did. I am not saying a building is not important but I belong to the Body of Believers who meet in a tent in India."
You got it! You said a mouth full. And you are right!!!
The reason that I feel such a kinship here is that we are all one...the Body of Christ. It isn't about a building or a tent. :) It is about Jesus Christ.
I lost my church building and survived and am no worse off for it. I have not changed. :)
God bless all of you. Know that there are those of us who love you just the same as if we had been sitting next to you in your building for years. We pray for you and we understand.
Ima
I have not but a moment to write at this point in time, but I will simply post one question that has yet to receive any responses.
-"Bellevue Baptist Church EXISTS for the purpose of: Magnifying JESUS through worship and the Word, moving believers in JESUS towards maturity and ministry, and MAKING JESUS KNOWN TO OUR NEIGHBORS AND THE NATIONS! Are your attempts perpetuating the purpose of Bellevue, or crippling her from attending to her purpose?"
PLEASE PONDER AND PRAY OVER THIS QUESTION!!!
I will attempt to address all other responses to my post at a later time.
Steve Gaines did not come forward because Steve Gaines believes he is accountable to no one..Deacons have asked for coming forward by Steve Gaines he told them no. members have asked Steve Gaines to come foward with the truth about other matters Steve Gaines said no.Healing Of family matters?I saw 3 godly families who are like I still members of Bellevue visting Germantown Baptist this past weekend.?Why?Family matters?We Dads and Moms want a place where we can take are children and worship and we can no longer sit under this man.What have I learned from all this?That people, close frenids Sunday School leaders, staff, Can put their eyes on a man and be willing to follow this man to sacrifice the truth for unity.AND Follow this man?Folks that is clear Idol worship.Yes we have to forgive Paul williams.We are still called to be vigilant and stand for the truth.I remember Dr.Rodgers telling about a professor who told him if he did not conform he would never make it.The day has come where some at Bellevue would have us to conform and flow along follow a man and accept half truths for the sake of unity.My answer?Not on My WATCH... ...
Scion, you asked respectfully why those who still don't like SG are still at BBC. It's a respectful question that deserves a respectful answer.
Some feel called to stay at BBC and fight for the truth. Good for them!
Others, like my family, felt led to move on to a church where we could worship in spirit and in truth, where we had respect for the integrity of the pastor, and where we could leave each service saying, "it was good to be in the house of the Lord." That hasn't been the case for us at BBC for several months now.
It was a tough decision. There are biblical examples of people who held their ground and stayed put in a bad situation, and there are examples of people who moved away from a bad situation. I am reminded of something Dr. Rogers said, in a different context. He imagined someone saying, "I know this church is bad, but Grandma is buried in the graveyard in back of the church." His reply was, "Go ahead and move. If Grandma could, she'd move, too!"
At first I withheld my tithe from BBC (and kept it in escrow, so to speak.) Then it hit me, if BBC is not worthy to send your money to, why do you send yourself and family there?
Others who have decided to stay and fight, and others who have left, I'd like to hear your story.
Piglet - your post at 7:24 PM, January 23, 2007 said everything I have felt. There are many more issues than PW. PW was just the most shocking. Integrity is missing in every crevice of today's society. It is with even greater sadness to realize that BBC has lost that integrity as a result of SG. Not to mention sermons that are biblicaly skewed.
forgiveandmoveon said
I can think of two major blunders that involved other ministers on staff and deacons who were in the presence of Steve Gaines
Piglet says:
There is atleast one more. Phil Weatherwax hand delivered our $25,000.00 donation to the apostate church. Why on earth didn't he speak up?
Financeguy,
My questions were rhetorical, designed to get people to think.
I am not advocating anyone leaving Bellevue and running away. I simply posed my questions in order to get folks to consider their own reasons for staying at Bellevue.
If you're only staying to cause havoc to the pastor, then you're staying for the wrong reasons.
I don't believe anyone should subject themselves to a spiritual authority they can't trust.
If you can't trust your spiritual authority, then how can you ever hope to spiritually grow under his leadership?
Therefore, if you can't grow under his leadership, then why are you there in the first place?
I wouldn't waste my time staying in a church that is not helping me to grow spiritually. Why would anyone?
If you want to fight for our church, then by all means, do so. I am always an admirer of those who stand up and fight for what they believe in.
However, make sure you're doing it for the right reasons, and not for self-glorification. (Not saying that anyone here is...just friendly advice!)
__________________
Outahere,
Good words.
OverflowingGrace,
You mentioned that a staff member was saved through Kenneth Hagin. My brother-in-law is knee deep in Hagin's ministry. He graduated from Rema and swears that he never gets sick. My wife and I would love to meet with the staff member if he could educate us a little on the inner workings.
I never mentioned that. Somebody thought it would be funny to change their name to 'Ace' to confuse people...so sorry, I'm not sure if that statement is true or false.
And speaking of what happened last night, I'm wondering...why is it when somebody was posting as Tim Coggins the other day, the posts were deleted that harmed his reputation. However, last night, the posts harming my reputation still remain up dispite requests to get them removed. Is there favortism going on here? I would hate to think so.
And on top of that, this post has a quote from Charlie and Charlie Foxx was the culprit last night, sinking VERY low in the way he was acting...but yet he was praised. Why? Just wonderin'
NASS: You've got mail. :)
scion said
However, make sure you're doing it for the right reasons, and not for self-glorification. (Not saying that anyone here is...just friendly advice!)
Piglet says:
I just had to laugh at this! Honestly, no disrespect. You'd just have to be in our shoes, that's all.
We had great friendships, were happy and comfortable in our church, serving in several different capacities over th years.
Now our name is thrust into the limelight and I know many people hate us - without even knowing us.
Many in our group have lost friends. Someone came on the blog with a veiled threat against someone's children (it was quickly deleted).
This is one of the most painful experiences in my life. No matter how this turns out, there will be people who hate us and think we are tools of the devil.
My family has been praying for us to have wisdom. We have asked that they pray for our protection as well.
For someone who has never had any enemies, this is a shock to the system.
Just a little view from the inside for you..... :(
Piglet,
Good point and there are actually many other examples of decisions other ministers and laymen that surround Steve Gaines could have given him better counsel. Once again, perhaps they did and Steve Gaines just wouldn't listen.
To mambejustmaybe,
As for leaving Bellevue or not being able to speak as a nonmember, I'd say nonsence to that. The church is God's people collectively. Bellevue is part of the Southern Baptist Convention and we as a group owe it to hold each other accountable. When any SBC church has a leader doing something outside Biblical guidlines, I think any Believer has the right to speak out against it. We see it all the time and Dr. Rogers rightfully did so. Let's not stick our heads in the sand again and actually believe we are the "Mighty Bellevue" and nobody is going to tell us what to do. This is not it at all. If I'm doing something wrong, I want my brother or sister in christ to confront me. I'll compare my actions to the scripture and either stop what I'm doing or dialogue with my brother and sister. Either way, I'm grateful for someone who loves me enough to confront me.
outahere said...
Then it hit me, if BBC is not worthy to send your money to, why do you send yourself and family there?
Ouch.. you hit it here, this statement really struck me.Thank you,because of that one sentence I will devote the next few days to prayer and thought about the direction I need to go for my family..
Piglet,
Many in our group have lost friends. Someone came on the blog with a veiled threat against someone's children (it was quickly deleted).
A threat towards someone's children? When did that happen and what was said?
Aviscious ce
bbcemployee told someone they needed to put their kids to bed and called them by name.
That's why I say it was a VEILED threat. Taken in the context of all the other viscious statements (of which about a dozen were deleted) this was not taken as a friendly remark.
Sorry, Ace.
I goofed up your name on the last post. :/
Piglet,
You're right, I'm not there in your shoes. And I hope that you honestly understand I didn't mean any disrespect towards you or anybody in particular.
Only God can know our hearts. The true and pure motivations of anyone posting on this blog cannot be judged by me or anyone else here. I would not point a finger at anyone here and say "There goes a sinner." Unless, of course, I was looking in a mirror! But you get my point...
I think that 90% of the posters on this blog believe they are right. If things get hot-headed and insulting from time to time, I still like to give those people the benefit of the doubt and believe they're just speaking from emotions because they're passionate about what they are saying and what they believe.
I seriously think that Jim Haywood loves BBC and wants to "save" it. I also think that ACE loves BBC and wants the same thing. I think they have two different opinions about what that involves, however. But I can respect them both.
(Just remember, guys. Only God can truly "save" Bellevue!)
Anyway, I just wanted to assure you that I am not doubting your pain, Piglet. There are plenty of us here with our own pain. I could tell you some stories....
trucker
outahere said:
Then it hit me, if BBC is not worthy to send your money to, why do you send yourself and family there?
Piglet says:
I am really torn in this area as well but I feel like God has us in this predicament for a temporary time until our work is done.
We would not attend a church indefintely that we could not tithe to but at this point we are waiting on a word from God.
If integrity is restored back to our church, we will stay and resume tithing.
If the membership, after being informed of the issues, chooses to stay the course, we will leave and place our tithe in another church.
Which one of you posters is Trena?
Ace, you have mail.
Piglet,
Well said reply to Brad.
bbc refugee said:
-People being told they are going to be killed if they do not agree with SG
Piglet said:
Gaines ... holds the opinion that he is above accountability to anyone at BBC and has stated thus.
I hadn't heard of these. What are you guys referring to? (I did just read something about Gaines telling a group of deacons he didn't answer to them?)
For the record, NBBCOF removed the comments from the fake ace last night as soon as they were found. NBBCOF, contrary to what some may think, doesn't sit and monitor the forum 24/7.
NASS, about the pictures I posted about. I was not trying to start any trouble, just thought it was kind of cool and bold for these guys to post their pictures. They were only up for a minute.
Memphis
all2jesus
I hadn't heard of these. What are you guys referring to? (I did just read something about Gaines telling a group of deacons he didn't answer to them?)
Piglet says:
I think we may be talking about the same incident regarding the deacons...
Piglet...
:) Self glorification? I nearly choked!!! I can't find the halo...can you? Oh my! I had to laugh too! Walk a mile in my shoes.
"Now our name is thrust into the limelight and I know many people hate' us - without even knowing us." And Piglet...they couldn't even tell you WHY they hate you!
"Many in our group have lost friends." Right...or were they?
"This is one of the most painful experiences in my life. No matter how this turns out, there will be people who hate us and think we are tools of the devil." You got that right! Do we know each other?
"For someone who has never had any enemies, this is a shock to the system." Tell me about it!!!
Just a little view from the inside for you..... :( I am sure we know each other!!!
Ester, I loved your post. You have hit the nail right on the head, so to speak.
outahere said:
Then it hit me, if BBC is not worthy to send your money to, why do you send yourself and family there?
A good point and one we have considered. Though we presently send our tithe elsewhere and attend GBC for the most part, we haven't moved our membership. If everyone concerned about integrity at Bellevue departs, who does that leave? As Christians we have a responsibility to hold each other accountable regardless of church affiliation, but I feel our right to ask questions and demand integrity and accountability from the leadership would be greatly diminished were we no longer members.
Something I have been thinking about and I am not sure I understand.
If we are a congregationally approved Church, then why are the bylaws so important?
It seems to me like you cannot have both. I know I am not the only one that does not understand this concept and I would appreciate it if someone could clear this up for me.
ace said...
And on top of that, this post has a quote from Charlie and Charlie Foxx was the culprit last night, sinking VERY low in the way he was acting...but yet he was praised.
REPLY;
ACE, I POSTED THIS ON THE PREVIOUS THREAD EARLY THIS AM. SORRY, BUT YOU BLEW IT AGAIN!!!!!!!!
charlie fox said...
ace said...
I think it's safe to assume that The Fake Ace = Charlie Fox.
If I'm wrong, sorry Charlie...but I think I'm right since you just...disappeared.
FOR THE RECORD>>> CHARLIE FOX IS NOT POSTING AS THE FAKE ACE. NOT MY STYLE!!!!
8:17 AM, January 23, 2007
Ace,
Last night, I called you darkened, vulgar, efeminant, unregenerate and possibbly reprobate...I said this in a heated response as to what I percieved to be a lighthearted and arrogant attitude to the subjects being discussed...but all that is immaterial and you need not explain yourself to me...I had no right to make a judgement such as that about you and publish it on this blog with the intent of belittling you personally or spiritually...there is certainly no scriptural warrant or mandate for that no matter whatever theological camp you abide in. It only added more discord to what is already a tense situation. I humbly ask for forgiveness, as I have already asked it from the LORD. Those collaterally offended, please accept my apology as well, I humbly ask. Many also made theological inquiries to which I will not respond, for it will be of benefit to no one and only cause more rancor.
The grace that the LORD has shown a filthy sinner such as I, I failed to extend to others (another), and in doing so, I shamed not only myself, but my LORD.
ACE, again, my heartfelt apologies. I will take the advice of several on this forum and cease to blog here anymore. Grace to you all. And I ask, NASS, I believe it is, could you remove my comment at some time from the archives.
AoG, Ez, I am sorry also to you that someone that you thought of as a 'similar' thinker would behave in such a wicked manner. And AoG, I feel sick enough over this already, and know your wisdom, so no spurgeon, pink or knox quotes:/
I should say also that our patience is not infinite, but things are so much in flux at Bellevue right now in the wake of the PW disaster, we're holding on and praying that truth will triumph. I firmly believe when that happens, SG will have to step down. And I believe it will happen, but if it starts to look like years instead of weeks or months, we'll have to do what's best for our family.
brad perry said: The simple fact is, that you simply have no taste for the stylistic changes Dr. Gaines has facilitated within our church.
Sir, if this is your summary of all that has gone on, it does no use to attempt to explain anything. You are either clueless to the real issues or wearing blinders.
brad perry said: The Bible says, "Do not judge, or you too will be judged." It also says, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone..."
You're kidding, right? I'd love to see your reaction if one of your children (now or in the future if don't have them) pulls one of these lines out:
"Yes, Daddy, I lied, but 'let him without sin give the spanking'".
You trying to win Grand Prize in the "Misapplication of Scripture" category on this blog? I think you're in the running.
Ed Thompson
* This message is copyrighted and reproduction or use in any form is prohibited without the express written consent of ET, Inc. All rights reserved. Copyright 2007.
Memphis, there is no conflict between being congregationally approved and having by-laws. By-laws simply provide order and structure. It's analogous to our country - we're a government of, by and for the people, and our constitution provides the structure under which we operate.
At BBC, "congregationally approved" has become a joke over the years, and this didn't start with SG. Once a year, we rubber stamp an annual budget with little real detail, and we rubber stamp the committee on committees report without even being told who is on the committees (of late, they don't even reveal the names of the committee chairmen.) We are, in effect, signing a blank check. We don't vote on staff additions (or dismissals) or much of anything else.
china shop bull,
Wisdom?...I got zip. No quotes. I've been on the receiving end of a few grenades myself. Grace and Peace bro.
PS I've blogged my last on here myself..I don't think anybody listens anyhow.
ed tsaid
Yes, Daddy, I lied, but 'let him without sin give the spanking'".
Piglet says:
LOL! Thanks. I needed that. :D
AoG,
I will Drop by your blog...count on it!
as for as the wisdom, dont sell yourself short...if you think that John Knox coached the steelers, then maybe you dont have wisdom, but otherwise...
'night
AoG,
Im sorry, that last statement; I forgot, the steeler coach last name was knoll wasn't it...sorry, Im not as old as you:)
china shop bull,
Ok the steelers jab I'll take for the Armenian joke..truce?
The much 'gentler' bull at last has his vengence on the much older reformed theologian...truce
ps...you still have hair, right?
I mean, after all, most reformers had mullets...its a fact man...look it up!
I look forward to your visit on my blog :/
This is just a test.
Ok, now that I know things work, here is my real post:
All:
I have watched from the sidelines for several months now, but I would like to clear up one issue that was the primary factor in my decision to leave Bellevue.
I personally verified from 2 primary sources (meaning they had firsthand, completely accurate information) that 1) PW admitted in their first meeting that he sodomized his own son and 2) SG did not consult with ANYONE until the information recently came to light.
Forget trespassing, allegations about the credit card, all the other things. They are trivial compared to the PW issue.
My "2 cents": 3 people were in that meeting. 2 left keeping a secret. 1 pronounced judgement. It's interesting if you line up the timing of that meeting with the growing unrest that followed.
Do I think SG is an evil man? No. Do I think any of his defenders or the leaders are evil? No. Great men can make terrible decisions. Do I think God has removed his wisdom and blinded them to the truth? Absolutely.
As Far as moving membership I think at this point there is a cloud in the halls at Bellevue.A check in the spirit that says I am troubled in my spirit about this place.You can feel it in the sanctuary.As i could no longer worship there and my wife who loves the choir could no longer sit
behind this man,Going to sunday school class listening to a pro gaines speech by The sunday school teacher it was time to visit gbc as others have. if you feel that its time to at least try one visit to germantown baptist please do.I see it each sunday morning becoming a Bellevue EAST (Not to take away from Germantown Baptists Great heritage.)Another observation at Germantown Baptist...The talent pool of godly Men and Women that are coming out of Bellevue,Former sunday school teachers,choir members former Bellvue staff Members,Baseball coaches soccer coaches, Godly Moms and Dads their beautful children WE have watched growing up.I see people that we used to see in the halls at Bellveue I don"t know there names but brothers and sisters there are coming each week.I think if things stay long term at Bellevue like they are now many more will be coming.I want to serve here and have fellowship with the body and I am not saying to Leave if you want to stand and fight but I made the decision to visit and it its like coming home again!I am saying this if you will come visit Germantown Baptist and then let God lead you from there.God bless
Brad Perry,
I have read your post and here are some thoughts to think about.
I can see the substance of your letter cames from your heart and some emotions and feelings you have. But, you ought not allow feelings to govern you mind and prevent you from putting the Word of God into shoe leather.
It is God's Word that is to be our measuring rod; it is God's Word that ought to be our Truth and not our emotions. Our heart can be so deceptive!
We know how sg got to Bellevue. How he got here doesn't make his behavior free of any accountability! He still ought to be held accountable for his behavior and the words he speaks.
You accuse the brethren of being "legalists, sickening blogs, shamelss, sinful. tactics" in a "brazen attempt" to "overthrow" a "humble" pastor.
A string of inditements without explination of why or where you're coming from with these!
It is perplexing the reason, you give as to the motives of this blog and the men you mentioned.
Where have you read any of the superficial motives here?
It is not, as you state for the "physical appeearance of the chruch" or the "order of the service" or due to "stylish changes! Who has mentioned any of this, anywhere, as being the problems? Where did you get that idea?
I think if you are honest and really read through what the problems stated are, you would also find yourself just as greived and disturbed at what is taking place at Bellevue, as the majority of those on this blog.
None of the complaints against our leadership has been so trite as you have accused these godly men for standing up against.
Have you ever met any of these men, Brad? Or read what they have concerns about? Mr. Raid Saba is a very godly and spirit-filled man of God. He is also a very humble man.
I'm sorry, but I have never known even those who desire for sg to stay and who defend his behavior to call him, a "humble" man. Look at Raid and Dr. Rogers: these are humble men.
If it were as petty as you contend, it would have gone away a long time ago.
Who has hurt Bellevue? The lies and deceit and cover-ups. Pride has hurt Bellevue! Self love and an arrogant attitude against the sheep have hurt Bellevue. The lack of integrity, have hurt Bellevue. It has hurt Bellevue for sg to have allowed a child molestor to remain on staff for six months without dealing with him, the situation and the cover-up. It might hurt Bellevue even more because of the law sg broke when he didn't report it to the authorities.
I greive for pw and his family. Had sg taken care of business according to GOD'S WORD, then his son and family would not have been dragged into the open arena for all the world to see. That was sg doing, no one elses.
Who really is hurting Bellevue's credibility? It is not those brave souls who stand up for TRUTH and the Word of God! All who do not obey or observe the Word of God are the ones guilty of division, not those who call for transparency and truth.
To quote the Bible "Do not judge" and "if anyone is without sin....." is to not understand scripture and to misuse it for your own purpose by taking it out of context. That can be very dangerous to do.
What is crippling Bellevue is not this blog. Only truth has power. If this blog were full of lies as you have implied it would be powerless. However, there is power in truth and this blog is responsible for bringing out truth.
I challenge you to set your feelings aside and to look at FACTS.
China,
Thanks for your apology. It is much appreciated. And of course I forgive you...don't think for a second otherwise.
Thanks again.
faithnhope wrote:
"The President of the Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary says his request that the Chief Pastor at Bellevue Baptist Church step down was misunderstood."
I wonder why Channel 5 is just now getting around to reporting on a letter that Dr. Spradlin wrote (and which was published on MABTS website) over a month ago. You'd think it was a new development when it's not.
FallethNtheDitch
I hear and understand you, but Bellevue is home to these people. You should encourage them to come back, and not encourage other defections.
Keep in mind, both Dr. Whitmire and Dr. Spradlin are interim over there. When they are gone, the "little Bellevue" fantasy will be over. You should all be over here helping build Bellevue for the next generation.
The phrase "drinking from wells others have dug" comes to mind. The heritage that we have at Bellevue was left to use by a previous generation. A generation that did not see the fruits of their labors. We have a duty and a responsibility to 'dig wells' for the next generation.
You should encourage the "bellevue refugees" to come home. It's not hopeless. God can move and work, even in the midst of man's failings.
Andrew,
If you are out there, please email me. acefrombbc@gmail.com
Bepatient said...from a previous thread...
If memory serves, CW has worshiped at BBC since that time. Maybe not all of that time, but at least large portion of it. I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure.
I'd be interested what information you have, because I have very reliable information that CW and his kids have been gone from BBC since around late June.
mjm wrote:
"I wonder if there would be a difference in the tone and/or direction of the conversation on the blog if between now and Sunday, discussion was limited to Bellevue members only. Not meaning any disrespect to folks who are outside our congregational membership who post here regularly, because I find myself challenged and drawn deeper into the Word by some of the things they say. I'm just curious as to whether anyone else thinks that, as this is a profoundly serious "family matter" and we need to be seeking God's face in unity about the decisions before us, it might be beneficial for us to close ranks just a bit. Some of the comments made by those who are not BBC members seem to inflame and intensify already-raw emotion, and I just wonder if that is productive to the matters at hand."
Not "tearing you apart" for your opinion, but it's been my observation that some of the most inflammatory comments have actually come from Bellevue members. And the chance to keep this solely within the confines of the church walls was tossed out by Steve Gaines himself last year when he refused to allow Mark Sharpe to follow Matthew 18.
Non-members who follow the guidelines for posting will continue to be welcome and their views valued. Unlike at Sam's Club, your membership card will not be checked at the door!
Sometimes one can be a lot more objective when there's some distance between oneself and the situation and when personalities aren't involved, and some of our guests have illustrated that daily. Thanks to all of you for your contributions!
NBBCOF
financeguy- I was referring to a previous thread and was talking about the fact that he has been at BBC since the original incident 17 years ago for quite some time.
that would be a previous post... not a previous thread...
bepatient.
Sorry about the confusion. Sure does make you marvel at his willingness to be loyal to his dad all these years, as well as wonder what might have happened in recent years to bring it all back up. Just my opinion of course, but I seriously doubt it was a "one time event, 17 years ago, and dealt with properly at the time".
It doesn't add up.
Dear financeguy
Life on this Earth is Interim...I certainly understand your post.You are my brother in Christ.As to wells that were dug by previous generations Brother your right.Dr Lee,Dr Pollard,Dr.Rodgers You and I our wives all have drank from those wells.I remember My grandmother who lived in the hills of East Tennesse had a well.You know the kind where you would drop a cylinder type water tube down a deep shaft retrive the water and hoist it back up with a chain and Brother financeguy that water weighed ton!So being city boys from Memphis we would fill that well shaft up with "Rocky Top"rocks AND dirt.And you know what?You couldn"t drink from that well any more!They had to dig a new one!Sometimes in Life you are forced to dig new wells.Could God be possibly digging a new well at Germantown Baptist?and if the Holy spirit leads Bellevue people to germantown baptist Should I encourage them to return to Bellevue?Ithink not. If are precious missonarys overseas are they not digging new wells?DR.Spadlin and Jim whitmire are not Bellevue fantsy And are actively doing Gods work!There are rocks in the well at Bellevue and I agree with you God can get those rocks out.Dr Rodgers taught us that.There may not be a Bellevue
there may not be A Germantown Baptist but we must not comprimise the word of God...
esther,
Wonderfully clear posts you had today (January 23, 2007 and beginning at 5:17 PM). Thank you for all you stated. Can I be your lowly friend?
Dee
concernedSBCer wrote...
"NASS: You've got mail. :)"
Sorry, but I don't. :-(
memphis wrote:
"NASS, about the pictures I posted about. I was not trying to start any trouble, just thought it was kind of cool and bold for these guys to post their pictures. They were only up for a minute."
Oh, I know. I wasn't implying you were. I was just explaining that I turned that feature off from the beginning, so if that was happening, it had to be a glitch in the system. Not a problem!
It's just that mean ol' Mike Bratton's photo was frightening this timid little sheep. :-0
NBBCOF
I know "charlie fox," and he was NOT the fake ace who was posting last night. I know because I asked him, and he gave me an emphatic "NO!" I don't know who it was, but I in no way condone his or her actions and did delete the posts I found.
NBBCOF
P.S. Charlie, be expecting an apology from ace for falsely accusing you.
Bereans,
Sadly, I am going to have to agree with you. Where do we even begin to dismantle the corrupt leadership at BBC? It's not enough that SG leaves. Unless he takes Chuck Taylor, John Caldwell, Harry Smith, David Coombs, Steve Tucker, Brian Miller and Mark Doughtery with him, it's not going to be enough.
As far as I am concerned the whole group is a package deal. They exist for one another, and behave as though they own BBC.
NASS: I wonder if yahoo is having problems again...have you received any of the 4 I have sent over the past several days?
Good Morning Everyone,
LISTEN TO CHUCK SWINDOLL TODAY.
We will all be strengthened for our work. All of us.
Make time. Follow through.
www.insight.org
www.oneplace.com
AOG....many are listening. Your posts are thoughtful and logical....needed during this stressful time. jmho
New BBC Open Forum said...
I know "charlie fox," and he was NOT the fake ace who was posting last night. I know because I asked him, and he gave me an emphatic "NO!" I don't know who it was, but I in no way condone his or her actions and did delete the posts I found.
NBBCOF
P.S. Charlie, be expecting an apology from ace for falsely accusing you.
THANK YOU, NASS!!! I POSTED MY DISCLAIMER TWICE. ACE MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE SEEN THEM.
david S said...
"Concerning the gift to FUMC:
I was up studying 1st John for tomorrow night. I was startled by Gary Burge's notes in the NIV Application Commentary. Check this out:
"Challenges to the gospel and the flourshing of new religious movemetns seem commonlace. And in some cases the chruch has endoresed their growth. A Presbyterian Church in Missouri recently sent $41,000 from its church benevolence to a local Muslim school to 'aid the oor and oppressed.' Yet does not such charity advance the theological mission of a faith that denies Christ and directly competes with the church?"
(179) Commenting on 1 John 4:1-6"
My two cents-- I see the point but FUMC does at least preach the same basic theology. We may rightly disagree with some of the things they choose to believe but because they are still a Christian church there is potential for people to be saved. Therein lies the difference for me.
concerned,
thanks for your words, but quite frankly I'm worn out. Between 14 yrs worth of this kind of thing and several of having to constantly defend myself for a theological position, has me to the point of the "1000 yd stare"..those old enough, or know enough WWII history will know what that means. Anyhow, I think theologically, and that's always going to manage to come to the surface...and if that's going to be divisive, then I don't need to be here. Thanks again for your kind words. Keep fighting the good fight of faith.
vaya con dios my brethren.
Heavenly Father, please lead us to the truth in love and in peace. usa english "thou shalt" english please let the Great Commission move forward today in bermuda. in Jesus's name, amen.
AllofGrace,
The highest praise I know how to give:
You remind me of Jesus.
Joseph
BBC Refugee said:
JCsuitt, 4545, MEmphis and all you others. Tell us who you are so by your reputation, we can all know that you are exactly right.
What have I ever said that would lead you to want to call me out on anything? I do not understand where this post came from and what you are calling me out for? Please email me if you have a question for me.
*****
Also I just read in the Commercial Appeal where no severence package is being offered to PW.
" Can I be your lowly friend?"
Dearest Dee, No you cannot be my lowly friend. But please be my very much appreciated sister in Christ. :o)
All of Grace,
I feel like 'Dad' is leaving us.
But I sure can understand where you are coming from. There comes a time when all that can be said, has been said.
bereans:
Another take on this is that God may have brought Steve Gaines to Bellevue to scatter us and spread us out. I’m not saying this is what’s going on, but it is possible.
I heard Argentinean evangelist Luis Palau share an illustration one time that could apply to Bellevue. “When manure is piled up, it stinks, but when it is spread out, it does a lot of good.”
I’ve already seen folks leave Bellevue and bless other churches with their talents and abilities.
bereans:
Another take on this is that God may have brought Steve Gaines to Bellevue to scatter us and spread us out. I’m not saying this is what’s going on, but it is possible.
I heard Argentinean evangelist Luis Palau share an illustration one time that could apply to Bellevue. “When manure is piled up, it stinks, but when it is spread out, it does a lot of good.”
I’ve already seen folks leave Bellevue and bless other churches with their talents and abilities.
Hey allofgrace,
Gal 6.9
And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.
Please don't go! :)
To all reading:
It is time for many of you that have been just reading to contribute your thoughts to this discussion. The Pulpit side wants us to think that there are only a small number of people that think as we do. Now is the time to stqand up and be counted. A simple word form those of you that agree, sympathize or stand wavering would help to ease some of the "battle fatigue" that I am seeing setting in here.
NASS, it may be time for a new thread for this topic.
As Chistians I believe the ten commandments are still binding on us. We no longer have to eat kosher (Thank you, God: Pepperoni pizza and cheese burgers) nor follow the temple rituals. What changed with Jesus's death and resurrection?
Here are two possible things.
1) The explicit standard became much higher. Jesus told us that we are guilty of sin for just wanting it to happen in our hearts.
2) The religious temporal penalty has been lowered. For many of the O.T. religious laws, guilt before Jesus's death & resurrection was punishable with no intervention by the civil government. Ever since pentecost days, Christians rely on civil governments to enforce laws. This was a big change from relying on a layer of religious goverment.
But do these two points hold up under scrutiny of the O.T.?
1) I believe that if you read the O.T. you will see that actually, the high standard was present even from the earliest times.
2) You will also find that forgiveness is mentioned many times in the O.T. David was not stoned to death for adultery.
This is an interesting topic, not one that I have mastered.
How well are we following the ten commandments? Are we obeying them even in our heart?
Exodus 20
1And God spake all these words, saying,
2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
(#1) 3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
(#2) 4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
(#3) 7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
(#4) 8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
(#5) 12Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
(#6) 13Thou shalt not kill.
(#7) 14Thou shalt not commit adultery.
(#8) 15Thou shalt not steal.
(#9) 16Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
(#10) 17Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
18And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.
19And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
20And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
21And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.
22And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.
23Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.
24An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.
25And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.
26Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.
aslansown wrote:
"The Pulpit side wants us to think that there are only a small number of people that think as we do. Now is the time to stand up and be counted. A simple word from those of you that agree, sympathize or stand wavering would help to ease some of the "battle fatigue" that I am seeing setting in here."
I'm a long time lurker, first time poster.
I'm with you "all the way"!!!!!
aog,
Sorry to see you go, but we'll stop by your blog sometimes.
I've learned quite a bit from you, so don't think that your efforts were in vain. I respect your theology even though I disagree with you on several points, but I'm very much aware that everyone doesn't respect it. It's never easy to have your deepest convictions belittled.
My only weak attempt at advice for the future is to pick your fights. Not all battles are worth fighting.
A passage I think and pray about when I'm worn out is from Matthew 11:
"Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
If Jesus said that His burden is light, and you're feeling heavy burdened, then it's quite possible you're carrying a load that Jesus never meant for you to.
Grace,
Hope Patterson
All of Grace said, "vaya con dios my brethren."
My dear fellow Christian brother. Please reconsider. I am not a member of Bellevue...but I am a member of the Body of Christ. I am also a victim of the church growth movement. You have the gift of the voice of reasoning...and this is not something everybody has. I pray you will reconsider your decision to leave this site. You have too much to offer to leave. You also have insight...you see and understand what is happening; it is called discernment. It is I am learning a rare thing. People need you to fight with them. I know it gets tiring. I understand that very much. I ask you to reconsider. You are a lovely person and wonderful contributor.
Blessings,
Ima
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