Good advice from "charlie fox" which I encourage you to read and heed:
"Certain posters OFTEN post for one purpose and one purpose only. OFTEN, their sole purpose is to be antagonistic. As long as y'all waste your precious time and talent feeding them, they will continue to play their game. If you ignore them, then they will soon go away. Y'all need to FOCUS, FOCUS, FOCUS on the problems at BBC and quit playing into their hands by playing their game. I know that it is hard to resist taking their BAIT, but you must RESIST THE TEMPTATION."
Today's news coverage:
The Commercial Appeal's coverage is here and here.
Channel 5's coverage is here.
FOX13's coverage is here, here, and here.
Channel 3's coverage is here.
Channel 24's coverage is here.
WREC Radio (AM 600) - The Mike Fleming Show which airs from 4:00 p.m. to 7:00 p.m. daily will likely have discussion. Live internet streaming can be accessed here.
The latest from Bellevue's site is here.
The latest EthicsDaily.com article.
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386 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 386 of 386integrityiseverything said...
aslansown wrote:
"The Pulpit side wants us to think that there are only a small number of people that think as we do. Now is the time to stand up and be counted. A simple word from those of you that agree, sympathize or stand wavering would help to ease some of the "battle fatigue" that I am seeing setting in here."
I'm a long time lurker, first time poster.
I'm with you "all the way"!!!!!
10:56 AM, January 24, 2007
Welcome.
Are you a Christian?
integrityiseverything said...
Wonderful!
Bereans said...
"phil edmiston-
Your manure suggestion may be a by-product of what has happened at Bellevue. Many could leave Bellevue and be used at other churches. I really doubt that was the reason for all this turmoil.
I tend to picture the Bellevue situation more like people leaving a sinking ship. People leave a hopeless cause to save themselves. If they happen to help others who are also swimming in the water that is great."
IMHO...it is because mature Christians, being discerners, can't sit under a false teacher. They can't tolerate the gospel being watered down. They can't stand seeing our Lord, Jesus Christ, being offended over and over again.
Ima
bereans wrote:
phil edmiston-
Your manure suggestion may be a by-product of what has happened at Bellevue.
For a second, I thought you were commenting on the quality of phil's comment!
:-0
Aslansown and integrityiseverything,
Also imaresistor, james sundquist, and lindon,
I invite you to visit the blog I have in my profile, "Blank sheets of Paper."
Please see where Tim was representing the pew side.
Maybe you can offer him some suggestions to resolve all of this?
I recently reviewed all of 25+'s The List and found that all of the issues are pulpit vs pew issues.
It's great to have some people embrace the real underlying problem here.
This is a situation to see how the pulpit and how the pew should relate to each other.
Have we a wrong balance of power at this point in time? Are we being biblical?
If we are, then great. No change needed. But those who feel somehting is wrong will stop feeling that way when scripture is elevated that explains the current status quo.
If the current status quo cannot be explained with scripture, then it is of human origin.
Just being human origin is not bad or good, but means that it is okay to offer slight suggestions for improvement and better inter-church relations between the pew and pulpit.
This is a time for people to join in from other sbc churches. This is an excellent discussion.
Thanks,
Joseph
Imaresisimaresistor said...
integrityiseverything said...
Wonderful!
11:11 AM, January 24, 2007
bepatient
My two cents-- I see the point but FUMC does at least preach the same basic theology.
Do they? FUMC has walked so far down the "universal" path and the "social gospel" road, that they are dangerously close (if not already there) to the "multiple ways to heaven", with "doing good works" being one of those ways. If by “basic” you mean they have a Christmas Pageant that basically follows the same story line, then yes, but then so do the Catholics.
We already know they reject Bible teaching on a number of different subjects. They appear to "follow the culture" with their theology, rather than being a shinning light on a hill.
Your comment seems to indicate that you fall in the category of the 'universalist'. This is part of the emergent church / ecclesiastical movement that seeks to downplay differences, and emphasis similarities. (Hey, we all drive cars to church don't we? See, we aren't so different!)
Also, go their website and see if you can find what they believe. I couldn’t, even though other UMC’s websites in town have their statement of beliefs. Wouldn’t you think that, knowing that all the media attention would drive new traffic to their website, they should at least have the gospel out there? Not to appear part of the “black helicopter crowd”, but it almost seems that they don’t want people to know what they believe. I guess so that other churches and individuals won’t fill “uncomfortable” about donating to them. Sounds kinda deceptive to me. To find out what that church stands for, you have to Google the Pastors’ name, Rev. Martha Wagley, and see her positions and statements as well as events she has participated in. Turns out, she’s not just a female pastor, she’s an activist for more. See here, here, here, and here,
Also, you are known by who you associate with.
Rev. Martha Wagley, pastor at First United Methodist Church, opened the rally with a prayer.
That’s another thing I appreciated about Dr. Rogers. He understood that he/Bellevue was judged by his/our associations and participations. He was careful to avoid people and organizations that could create false impressions in people’s minds about who he and us were.
financeguy, I asked a question last night and I would like to hear your views on it please.
If we are congregrationally approved, why is it so important to have by-laws? seems to me like they kind of off set each other.
Only one other person responded to my question, and I appreciate his response, but I would lke to hear from others as well. Thanks
bible-in-a-year,
Yes, I'm a Christian and a member of Bellevue for over 25 years!
Don't let anyone waver or give up!
God is still on "HIS" throne and even the current preacher at BBC can not take over that position (as he continues his march "onward and upward", in the SBC)!
Remember, "Where Man Rules, GOD Can Overrule"!
Joseph:
I am not sure that we have a current staus quo as you suggest. I believe that the what we have is a devolving situation that is primarily fueled by the vast majority of those that have no care either way and simply wish that the whole thing would just go away.
Unless and until these fence-sitters awake and begin to care ( I don't care which way) we will never be able to engage in any form of discussion among ourselves. Too many people pass one another in the hall and avoid long-time friends for fear of having to acknowledge the elephant.
What say you guys?
Last night 2cents said
All:
I have watched from the sidelines for several months now, but I would like to clear up one issue that was the primary factor in my decision to leave Bellevue.
I personally verified from 2 primary sources (meaning they had firsthand, completely accurate information) that 1) PW admitted in their first meeting that he sodomized his own son and 2) SG did not consult with ANYONE until the information recently came to light.
Forget trespassing, allegations about the credit card, all the other things. They are trivial compared to the PW issue.
My "2 cents": 3 people were in that meeting. 2 left keeping a secret. 1 pronounced judgement. It's interesting if you line up the timing of that meeting with the growing unrest that followed.
Do I think SG is an evil man? No. Do I think any of his defenders or the leaders are evil? No. Great men can make terrible decisions. Do I think God has removed his wisdom and blinded them to the truth? Absolutely.
11:17 PM, January 23, 2007
Will you please explain this comment to the board? What was your purpose in posting this?
As
Memphis,
In regard to the need for by-laws.
What does congregationally approved mean?
Does it mean a majority vote?
Does it require 70% approval?
What does the congregation approve and how do they display approval?
Who appoints members to a committee?
What qualifications are required to be a committee member?
What authority do committees have?
What are their limitations?
What authority does the deacon body have?
What are their boundaries?
In the absence of a well defined set of by-laws, who really knows.
This is why we need to have by-laws because without them there are no controls in place. There is no system of accountability and no means by which to verify the integrity of the system.
The by-laws define the system of the church governance. The current set of by-laws were written in 1929, when the church had 50 members. The purpose that it has served was sufficient for 50 members in 1929. Anyone in a group of 50 could have the opportunity to address the entire church body fairly easily if necessary.
Memphis said...
financeguy, I asked a question last night and I would like to hear your views on it please.
If we are congregrationally approved, why is it so important to have by-laws? seems to me like they kind of off set each other.
It's very important for several reasons. i have to get some things done today, but I'll answer tonight.
memphis said...
If we are congregrationally approved, why is it so important to have by-laws? seems to me like they kind of off set each other.
Response:
I think it is interesting that people keep bringing up the fact that at BBC we are a "congregationally approved" church. We really don't vote on much of anything anymore. In fact, yesterday there were several posts saying that a mega church as big as Bellevue should not be congregationally approved b/c it would never work.
I disagree. I think BBC should vote and vote more often. I think if the $$ for FUMC would have come to a vote, at least there would have been some discussion and people would have felt like they had a voice. The way it happened, we are left to the "chosen few" to decide and then we are not supposed to comment unless it is the affirmative.
By-laws, on the other hand, give a church structure and a "set of rules" by which to abide. That way, if there is ever a question about how, when, if...the by-laws should cover it.
Right now, we don't even go by the very small set we have. We were supposed to have an election of the board of directors at the last business meeting of 2006--I don't believe that happend, did it?
davids,
I believe there are some spiritual reasons as well as the secular ones. I also believe that Bellevue is inconsistant on this issue, but I'll address later. I really must get some work done!
financeguy said:
(in his 11:47 am post)
"FUMC has walked so far down the "universal" path and the "social gospel" road, that they are dangerously close (if not already there) to the "multiple ways to heaven", with "doing good works" being one of those ways.
Financeguy:
Thank you so much for the links. This is appalling to see the activities of Rev. Martha Wagley!!
All should read these links..very revealing. It looks as if the money that Bellevue's leadership so generously bestowed upon FUMC will be put to some purposes that should make all of us fear the wrath of Almighty God!
Following is one excerpt from one of those events in which Ms. Wagley participated:
"On Tuesday morning, supporters for the inclusion of homosexual people lined the hallway leading to the main convention hall, singing “Seek Ye First the Kingdom of God.” Participants often made the “knocking” gesture from Bishop Craig’s sermon as they passed through the lines of singers. The music led participants toward exhibits of closed doors where they were invited to sign and distribute a “bloody knuckle” petition for inclusion of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered people. “Bloody knuckle” refers to the three decades during which many United Methodists have been “knocking” to get the UMC to drop its exclusionary stances.
The consultation was organized by a 19-member design team, co-chaired by the Revs. Martha Wagley (Memphis Annual Conference) and Gina Kim (East Ohio Annual Conference) and included Bishops Shamana and Middleton."
Dear God, please forgive our leaders for supporting this travesty.
Tim, Finance and standing, thanks for your replies. And I do understand that there has to be rules, guidelines or wahtever they will be called.
But to me it seems that the congregation is always changing, people leave, people come, so how often do you feel the by-laws should be reviewed?
My thinking is this, if the by-laws say one thing and the congregation says another, then what? And I know this is hypothetical since as Standingontheshoulders pointed out, we have not held a vote in the time I have been at BBC that I remember.
So..we aren't really congregationally approved are we? And we really do not operate by by-laws either? and we haven't been either one for a long long time, correct?
NBBCOF,
For the record, NBBCOF removed the comments from the fake ace last night as soon as they were found.
Come on! You know as well as I do, that's not the full truth. Yes, you removed 4 or 5 posts, but you left the rest of them up.
IN the thread..."Paul Williams Fired" the following posts are not mine. Perhaps you didn't know this until now, so I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. However, I trust that they will be removed now that I have brought it up to you once again.
The following posts are NOT mine:
11:04 PM, January 22, 2007
11:13 PM, January 22, 2007
11:18 PM, January 22, 2007
11:19 PM, January 22, 2007
11:26 PM, January 22, 2007
11:28 PM, January 22, 2007
11:30 PM, January 22, 2007
11:35 PM, January 22, 2007
11:43 PM, January 22, 2007
Have fun deleting!
memphis...
In my opinion, you are correct--BBC has not been operating according to its by-laws, and has not been approving much as a congregation.
However, an indepth discussion of this issue is way outside my "expertise." If I even have any expertise in any subject! :)
I do think, at the very least, BBC should be operating by the set of by-laws which she now has which would mean that she would have monthly business meetings and an election of the board of directors once a year.
From there, I'm sure the rest would begin to take care of itself.
I found this definition on Savingbellevue.com:
"Bylaws are the rules by which the corporation is run, and explain the conditions and limitations that the corporation must follow in conducting its business."
standing
Looks like megachurch, cultofpersonality and the attendant culture is not limited to the United States.
I bet they were just going to buy more copies of PDL with all that cash!!"
YO ACE,
Did you see my TWO disclaimers?
Hello All,
I posted a website on the blog yesterday, pastors.com, and gave detailed instructions on getting to the threads, Transitioning and Dealing with Oppositioning. This is Rick Warren's website. There are many other threads that would warrant your attention as well. I got several emails from 'lurkers' especially who had read from this website and were totally repulsed from what they had read. I am going to post below one of the emails I received. I hope after reading this email, any of you who have not gone to this website and read this will give serious consideration to doing just that. Immeditely following this letter is the post I put on the blog yesterday giving the website and instructions in getting to this information. I pray you will go and read it. Thanks for listening and here is the email and the website in that order:
___________________________________
"Dear Ima,
I have been reading the Saving Bellevue blog for quite some time, as
I was born and raised in Nashville in SB churches. I frequently
watched LWF and still do. The sermons of Dr. Rogers are such a
relief and a blessing. I live in the west now but am finding things
in my own church that have caused me to wonder. I went to the
pastors.com site and registered. Then, I read the thread you
referred to. I am SHOCKED and REPULSED! Can these people be
Christians??? I do not post on the Bellevue blog, and so I want to
encourage you to plead with people to read that site. I am going to
pray that more people read the posts of so-called 'ministers'. I
don't know when anything has upset me to this extent, and with all
the dreadful things going on, that is saying something.
Thank you for your posts.
God bless you."
____________________________________
Now...my post from yesterday:
Go to http://www.pastors.com …, then to Pastor’s Forum and register if you haven’t. After you register, log in. You will see a General Information Thread. You will see all kinds of interesting threads, but pass them all up and scroll down to the 18th row to Transitioning Churches. Click on it. Obviously you will come to the Transitioning Churches Thread. Go to the very bottom of this thread and go to the next page. Scroll down to the 7th row to ‘Step 6-Dealing with Opposition’. Start reading. You probably are not going to want to stop reading. After you have read this, pick and choose whatever you want to read. I would suggest for starters, stay with the Transitioning thread and read that. When I first found this site, I couldn’t stop reading. It all started adding up. Let me know if you need more help in getting to this. Just a note…Dan Southerland is the author of the book, ‘Transitioning-Leading Your Church Through Change’ and also the President and Owner of Transitioning, Inc. These seminars are held around the country and at Saddleback. The book and business are endorsed by Rick Warren, obviously. He wrote the foreword for the book. I cannot stress enough how much reading Transitioning by Dan Southerland and The Purpose Driven Church would aid in your understanding of what is happening. This website I have just provided will too.
___________________________________
Blessings,
Ima
memphis said
So..we aren't really congregationally approved are we? And we really do not operate by by-laws either? and we haven't been either one for a long long time, correct?
Piglet says:
I think you're correct.That's partof the reason we're in this big mess where the same dozen or so people are always running things and nobody else has a say.
It's time to look at this issue.
Better late than never.
memphis
I also read in the CA that there was no severance package...
Memphis said...
financeguy, I asked a question last night and I would like to hear your views on it please.
If we are congregationally approved, why is it so important to have by-laws? Seems to me like they kind of off set each other.
Only one other person responded to my question, and I appreciate his response, but I would like to hear from others as well. Thanks
11:54 AM, January 24, 2007
Bylaws are extremely important. Good ones help to prevent discord because they set forth the procedures everyone has already agreed to follow with respect to a given decision.
The bylaws are regulations of an organization that, subject to statutory law and the articles of incorporation, provide the basic rules for the conduct of the organizational affairs.
Contained within a single written document, the bylaws dictate the procedures and operating standards that the organization will follow throughout its life as an entity, outlining what the organization can and cannot do without membership approval.
Examples of items included in the bylaws could be a section on Staff. What are the procedures for hiring staff? Which employees will require congregational vote (full time pastoral staff) and what employees do not (clerical, janitorial)?
Here is some example bylaw language:
With the congregation receiving at least 10 days prior notice of the meeting, the Pastor Search Committee shall present the recommended candidate to the church at a designated Sunday morning meeting during the worship hour(s). The congregation shall be notified of the business meeting by means of a letter to each church household, Sunday worship bulletin, and verbal announcement from the pulpit. Twenty-five (25) percent of the resident church membership shall constitute a quorum for the calling of a pastor. Election shall be by ballot. A minimum seventy-five (75) percent affirmative ballots of those members present and voting at the morning worship hour(s) shall be required to call a pastor.
So here you see the how the vote will be taken (ballot); the notice required (10 days); what represents a quorum (25% of members); and how many present are required to call the pastor (75%).
So basically the bylaws are a rule book that tells you who has the authority (committee, congregation, pastor) to do something (hire staff, make donations, purchase new real estate, sell church assets). As an example if the bylaws prohibit a donation to charity in excess of $xx,xxx dollars without congregational approval then the church accountant should make sure a vote was taken before he cuts such a check. Bylaws can and should also specify when and how often you will have business meetings. They are also amendable so you can add, strike or modify language as need be.
FYI the bylaws should also specify which set of Parliamentary rules should be used in a business meeting. Most churches use Robert’s Rules of Order.
FinanceGuy said...
"Looks like megachurch, cultofpersonality and the attendant culture is not limited to the United States.
I bet they were just going to buy more copies of PDL with all that cash!!""
Good work FG! And of course, after they bought the copies of the PDL, they would have distributed them in leiu of Bibles. Like Saddleback does. :)
I appreciate your fine efforts on this blog for the Body of Christ!
Ima
Another thing that I have found interesting is that many churches provide you with a copy of their by-laws when you join so that you will be aware of how things are done.
memphis said
So..we aren't really congregationally approved are we? And we really do not operate by by-laws either? and we haven't been either one for a long long time, correct?
Reply:
From what I have read here that is an accurate assessment.
I'm another one who reads but rarely posts. I have learned a lot of useful information from the blog although I have seen some posts that would have been better left unsent.
I am of the opinion that we need to watch our attitudes when we do post and if it is meant to antagonize or upset someone, we just need to hit delete and calm down.
ezekiel said...
Isn't Steve on record calling himself the benevolent Dictator?
I don't know about that, but I'm on record as saying that Dr. Rogers was truely a "benevolent dictator". I'm also on record saying that SG may be a dictator, but I'm not so sure that the modifing adjective should be "benevolent".
Just a couple of rules of thumb about bylaws from the world of professional associations ...
1) If there is a disparity between what your bylaws say and how your organization functions -- either change the bylaws to match the behavior or change the behavior to match the bylaws. Legally, there is no room for compromise. (Folks better versed in corporate law, like WTB, could probably expound on this thought.)
2) Bylaws are a living, breathing document. An organization with bylaws should always have a bylaws committee that meets regularly. The purpose of this is not only to insure compliance with the governing bylaws, but to constantly be reviewing and proposing changes to the bylaws and presenting them to membership for evaluation and adoption.
Check out this article by Associated Baptist Press. It is right on target about mega-churches, lack of accountability and sexual predators.
http://www.abpnews.com/1640.article
Also, check out www.stopbaptistpredators.org.
If these articles don't motivate all of us to continue the good fight, nothing will. Not only are we being fleeced by these mega-churches, there is a high percentage of sexual abuse going on also. Sheesh! And we dare ask for accountability.
nbtt,
Hello and welcome to the world of NCCBOF, though I am not the moderator nor a member of BBC. Like you have probably read however...I am a member of the Body of Christ and a victim of the purpose driven movement.
I am reminded in reading your first paragraph of an old adage my parents used to teach me and I can still one of they saying to me in my heart, "You have to take the bad with the good." :) So, hopefully you have found some good amongst the good that you have read here. It is my hope that you will start sharing with us and start posting.
You are so right about watching our attitudes. We must remember to be as Christlike as possible. I never mean to antagonize and if I have, I hope all will forgive me. We do need to instill in ourselves a resolve of calmness.
Again...good to have you with us. Hope you will join in.
Blessings,
Ima
gbc_member,
You said, "From what I have read here that is an accurate assessment."
I concur. Actually, I am in a state of confusion as to what is being followed here? Seems like Elder/Pastor rule to me. But...without anything to support that? What exactly form of 'governing system' is in place here do you think? How did they incorporate without anything more substantial that what they show? Do you have any idea? An opinion at least?
Ima
Piglet said...
"memphis...I also read in the CA that there was no severance package..."
Piglet - I can hardly believe this. Maybe it is called something other than severance package? Anybody else?
Imaresistor. I can believe it. He was fired, terminated. Not many companies give a severance package to those that are fired.
Does the absence of a severance package have any impact on his retirement fund and/or his ability to draw from it?
maybe, I am not an expert, but I do not believe it will impact his retirement plan. I would think he would still have acccess to the money he put back, although he might have to pay taxes on it if he touches it due to his age, but again I am not the expert.
Somebody on here mentioned Cult of Personality. Bingo. That is exactly what Gaines is 'trying' to do. I wrote about this subject a while back. I have seen it over and over again. We do not need celebrity pastors. We need servants who are poor in spirit, who mourn, who are willing to be persecuted and who are on their knees.
http://coffeetradernews.blogspot.com/2006/11/cult-of-personality.html
Pastors need fewer 'leadership seminars' and more scripture.
KINDNESS
DROP A STONE INTO THE WATER-
IN A MOMENT IT IS GONE,
BUT THERE ARE A HUNDRED RIPPLES
CIRCLING ON AND ON AND ON,
SAY AN UNKIND WORD THIS MOMENT-
IN A MOMENT IT IS GONE,
BUT THERE ARE A HUNDRED RIPPLES
CIRCLING ON AND ON AND ON,
SAY A WORD OF CHEER AND SPLENDOR-
IN AMOMENT IT IS GONE,
BUT THERE ARE A HUNDRED RIPPLES CIRCLING ON AND ON AND ON.
I'm an outsider to BBC but I care greatly about the issues confronting you. Amidst the talk of reconciliation on this blog and the talk of "victim support" in the committee's interim report, what caught my attention was the fact that "the Personnel Committee will have final approval of outside counseling expenses." So...rather than letting counselors decide how much counseling someone might need, the personnel committee retains for itself the power to decide whether someone will get counseling or not. Sort of like an insurance company keeping the power to approve whether or not someone needs surgery, isn't it? And if someone who was previously counseled by PW now feels like they need further counseling, it might be very difficult for them to feel sufficient trust to again go to in-house counseling provided by the church. Whether those people choose pastoral counseling or secular counseling, what is essential is that they be afforded outside counseling - i.e., counseling provided by professionals outside the Bellevue system. That's the very sort of counseling that the personnel committee apparently intends to keep control over. Who are they to tell anyone whether or not they do or don't need another counseling session??? And how is that oriented toward reconciliation? Looks to me like it's oriented more toward the retention of power and control in the personnel committee. (How are the members of the personnel committee even qualified to decide whether or not someone needs counseling?)
Reconciliation efforts need a foundation of openly admitting wrong and transparently honoring truth. Obviously, I'm just an outsider...but from what I can read, it doesn't appear to me that anything like that is going on among the powers-that-be at Bellevue.
chazzo said...
Charlie FOX.....say it ain't so, you are responding to ACE!!!!
Are you the same Cahrlie Fox that warns against the same?
Yep, that's me. He erroneously accused me of being the FAKE ACE, and I had to clear my GOOD NAME. Go back and read my disclaimer posted at 8:17 this AM. IT WAS A ONE TIME THING!!!!
Charlie, I seem to recall Ace saying in the original post that if it was not you, then he was sorry.
and I apologize, cause I thought it was you also! lol
Lindon said, "Pastors need fewer 'leadership seminars' and more scripture."
Right on Lindon! And a good ole serving of humble pie might do a fellow good too, don't you think? I'd venture to say these guys haven't had a slice of that in a long time...if ever.
Everybody...
There is an evalgelical conference in my neck of the woods starting tonight...and guess who the guest speaker is for Friday? Yep...you guessed it right. None other than Steve Gaines himself? Do you think I should go hear him speak?
Ima
Charlie Fox...
They really give you a hard time, don't they!
Ima
Dear Brother and Sisters: PLEASE let me say WELCOME to Christa Brown. This is the dear sister I have told many of you about. Go to her profile and see the battle she has been waging for a very long time. Please visit her site.
I am so glad to see you here Christa.
David Brown
SNAP coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis
Dear Church family:
Ephesians 5;20
Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Speaking for myself only. I have said some things on hear that sounded bitter or ugly. Some have been for truth, humor and common sense.
However the Lord has spoken to me and asked out of all this, what can I be thankful for?
Giving it much though, I have come up with some things to be thankful for.
1. The Lord has lead us into a study group, which we should have been long before now.
2. We have made new friends that we would not have.
3. The Lord has opened our eyes to remind us to keep our eyes on Jesus.
4. A wise person told me once that man will let you down, but Jesus never will.
5. Another great Bible teacher told me that God uses certain Christians as sandpaper for others.
6. I am thankful that I am in the family of God, and I know where I will spend eternity.
7. We can gives thanks in all things.
We went to see the movie " Facing the Giants." A great lesson in this little story. They promised they would thank God whether they won or lost.
Being a Christian, I beleive in a win, win situation.
We have to listen to God. He may want some to leave BBC. As of yet, he has not told me to leave. It would be so much easier to just throw in the towel and leave. But, every day I pray for a Ester, a Daniel, a Gideon, a Moses, I could go on and on. I have prayed as Abraham prayed for his nephew Lot. Is there not ten rightious people in BBC to keep it from being destroyed?
With a broken heart, I will close and I may not post again. May God continue to bless each of you.
"concerned" for my church.
Ima....I've been at work and I'm trying to catch up...I just read the posts on Pastor.com. I am (almost) speechless. It's such a disdain filled place...we are now called "wolves"????? Thank you for helping to arm us against this. I knew it was bad, and I knew I had major red flags...but it is hard to comprehend how calculating it is. And the number of people that are being swept into the warrenism/gcm movement is just plain frightening. We have to stay informed and watchful.
imaresistor said:
"There is an evalg"lical conference in my neck of the woods starting tonight...and guess who the guest speaker is for Friday? Yep...you guessed it right. None other than Steve Gaines himself? Do you think I should go hear him speak?"
Ima:
I wish you could go, but that Dr. Gaines would HEAR YOU SPEAK. He could learn a lot from you.
He is an excellent SPEAKER, but he could benefit greatly if he was willing to LISTEN to some godly counsel from someone who isn't so intereted in "buddying-up" with him. He is totally surrounded with "Yes Men/Women", who seem afraid to say "No" even when they know he is being self-destrutive and dragging them down with him.
Christa Brown,
Let me welcome you. I am sure you have a lot to give to this community. God bless you.
Ima
Concerned,
Bless you so much. May you be strengthened in the Lord.
You said,
"Being a Christian, I beleive in a win, win situation."
Could I make a slight correction.
Being a Christian, I believe in a WON situation.
Bless you again.
Tim
imaresistor said...
Ima: I concur. Actually, I am in a state of confusion as to what is being followed here? Seems like Elder/Pastor rule to me.
Reply: I agree. BBC is de-facto Elder / Committee / Pastor ruled or some combination of thereof.
Ima: But...without anything to support that?
Reply: It appears that way to me – *unless* there is another set of amended bylaws we do not have a copy of. We assume the 1929 bylaws are the ones in force since those were given to the person that requested them (Josh?). Also, even if there are amended bylaws that include changes made after 1929 I doubt they gave the amount of authority to the elders & pastor that they now are exercising. If there were major amendments to the bylaws they typically would have required a 2/3 vote in favor of the amendment. Maybe 25+ years @ BBC or another seasoned member can recall a vote of this type.
IMA: What exactly form of 'governing system' is in place here do you think?
Reply: I suspect “congregational rule” is still in form but not in substance. Although the bylaws do not appear to support it, the elders & pastor are acting as though elder pastor rule is in place. The congregation has been denied their rights under the 1929 BBC bylaws. It is a bit akin to a coup I guess. If leadership decides not to follow the bylaws, and the congregation does not insist that the bylaws be followed, you wind up with a situation such as the one at BBC. I assume this was not a problem under Dr. Rogers because the congregation trusted him, but it appears to be a problem now. Rules and bylaws are not worth much if not followed by leadership and enforced by the membership.
IMA: How did they incorporate without anything more substantial that what they show? Do you have any idea? An opinion at least?
Reply: My guess (and it is a guess) is that the 1929 bylaws were sufficient to incorporate under the laws which were in effect in 1929.
concerned said...
Dear Church family:
With a broken heart, I will close and I may not post again. May God continue to bless each of you.
"concerned" for my church.
REPLY
Concerned I understand how you feel, but I would like to ask you to pray about your decision to post or not. Personally I think we need people on both sides posting in a godly manner. If we could do this I am sure all who read this blog would come away with a closer walk with Jesus our Lord.
I am sure that most everyone reading this blog over the past few months has gotten angry, hurt, saddened, disillusioned, shocked, and a host of other adjectives. I believe we have a responsibility to seek truth in an orderly manner, without offending our brothers an dsisters in Christ.
After all, we are going to be spending eternity with them..
Just allow God to guide you and He will direct your path.
ezekiel,
"Why don't we see an uprising in our churches and books and trinkets and catchy phrases telling us how to transition our churches to Christ instead of Rick Warren?"
You know, I think there actually is a book coming out about that... oh, yes, it's by Steve Gaines, and it's called When God Comes to Church.
BTW, does anyone know if Steve Gaines did Forty Days of Purpose over at FBC Gardendale? I asked the question a few days ago but no one responded. (I don't know the answer myself, which is why I'm asking.)
Aslansown:
My purpose for the post was to clear up the debate that I have seen in this thread and others about what PW told SG in their orginal meeting. Some have speculated that PW "understated" the situation or mislead SG in some way, thus giving some rationale for SGs actions (or non-action, as it were).
Verifying this 1 fact was critical in my decision-making process. The reason for my post is that knowing the facts my help others in their decision.
The rest is pure speculation on my part.
Does anyone else agree that this is an important piece of information to know?
Christa Brown,
Welcome!
I just finished reading your testimony on your webpage. My eyes are tear-filled and my heart aches for you!
Your hurt, frustration and disillusionment shows in every word and I'm sorry that you were put through all that you have had to endure.
Thank you for having the courage to share and to work toward keeping other children from experiencing what happened to you.
May God bless your efforts and may the scales of blindness and apathy fall from the eyes of all of us who make up "the church".
You and David Brown have so much knowledge and experience to shine a light into this dark hole of secrecy. Please continue to bless us with your knowledge.
.
Brethren,
As we press on for the prize of truth, love, and peace...
Here are some more thoughts on The List published by 25+.
1) I am going to lift one of the list items up every day here on this blog for prayer, and I hope that everyone will pray for resolution on each day's list item.
2) I believe that the individual items are championed by specific individuals and the total list is a composite. No individual person here cares about every item on the list equally. Many of us would number them in order of importance in different ways.
3) It is time to create a blog for some of the more controversial of the items on the list. Example: today FUMC was discussed for the 100th time. Why? Because the new people were not here for the old discussions the other 99 times. I will make a blog for the FUMC and place it on my profile.
I believe that several of us have specific items on the list that are dearest to our hearts. I encourage you to look on the list and find two or three issues to champion. Create a blog on your profile. You must invite our current moderator to have admin rights on your new NBBCOF "sub-blog"
We can use your blog as a way to organize the various discussions. This will also begin to ease the work load on our only moderator, Not a Stepford Sheep. Our current moderator will become a "super-moderator" (sorry for the technical terminology). She will be able to assist you if needed.
This will increase the amount of conversation that we get ten-fold and improve the speed to resolution effort by this "divide-and-conquer" strategy.
We will get thorough discussion on all issues. The people who are most concerned with the specific issues will be the ones moderating those specific debates.
I recommend that to start each blog, copy the materials in the archives of NBBCOF to your blog. That will get some momentum going for the new "spinoff" blogs.
This will also leave more room here for the most important hi-level discussions and allow our most expert moderator to focus on keenly moderating here. This should result in higher quality discussion across the body of beievers blogging.
I believe that Christ will be ever more glorified.
Your servant,
Joseph
.
Sorry, "charlie," but I must defend my honor...
ace wrote:
"NBBCOF,
"For the record, NBBCOF removed the comments from the fake ace last night as soon as they were found."
"Come on! You know as well as I do, that's not the full truth. Yes, you removed 4 or 5 posts, but you left the rest of them up."
No, sir, I did NOT intentionally leave any posts by the "fake ace" up, but if you had asked politely I would have been happy to go find them and remove them. However, since you've chosen to publicly accuse me of being a liar, then they can just stand. I'm very busy and have more important things to do than waste my time trying to assist someone who accuses me of lying about my previous efforts to help him. I would suggest you change your screen name or just don't comment or whatever you want to do, but I'm through, so deal with it.
Maybe I'll just delete everything with "ace" on it from now on. That will automatically take care of any "fake ace's" that show up.
NBBCOF
memphis wrote:
"So..we aren't really congregationally approved are we? And we really do not operate by by-laws either? and we haven't been either one for a long long time, correct?"
Congratulations! You have an excellent grasp of the obvious!
To Esther, my beloved sister in Christ,
Thank you for allowing me to call you "sister". I so admire your knowledge, understanding, wisdom and true insight into these matters. Your response to me also is in the same beautiful tone. I think you are so far ahead of me in the depth of your biblical wisdom that I quite simply feel much lower than you. Thank you for being who you are in Christ that in so being you are able to inspire others to a higher calling.
Dee
All of Grace,
Don't say you're going. Just take a break on trying to talk until you are revived in your spirit. I felt like that, too; but here I still am as the Lord wills me to do. You are a vital part of our brotherhood. Just be here, okay?
Dee
David S. and Ezekiel...
So you think he may have started the book right? Lets have a look.
Warren: “It’s not about you. The purpose of your lifeis far greater than your own personal fulfillment, your peace of mind or even you happiness. It’s far greater than your family, your career, or even your wildest dreams and ambitions. If you want to know why you were placed on this planet, you must begin with God. You were born by HIS purpose and for his purpose.” Purpose Driven Life, p.17
Well, this doesn’t sound so bad does it? Rather elementary actually isn’t it? It isn’t exactly anything you would want to replace the Bible with now is it? I wouldn’t think we’d need to send it to the mission fields do you? Do you really pick up something earth shattering here? Just for the record…as you continue to read this book, you will learn that it does indeed, turn into being ALL about you.
But let us just back up for just a minute. David S skipped the first part. Right above this part he has given you to read is a couple of things we don’t need to overlook. This is what the first chapter starts out with (the part David S left out)…here we go:
___________________________________
For everything, absolutely everything,
Above and below, visible and invisible,…
Everything got started in him and
Finds its purpose in him.
Colossians 1:16 (Msg.)-\THE MESSAGE
Unless you assume a God, the question
Of life’s purpose is meaningless.
Bertrand Russell, ATHEIST
_____________________________
Okay now. See anything wrong with this picture?
Compare the King James to the Message:
For by him were all things created,
that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
visible and invisible,
whether [they be] thrones, or dominions,
or principalities, or powers:
all things were created by him, and for him: (KJV)
You will find that Warren uses fifteen different translation of the Bible in The Purpose Driven Life plus he paraphrases scripture as well. All Biblical references are found in the back of the book and for most people, they don’t want to bother with going to the trouble to look them up.
Now to the second passage. Meet Bertrand Russell. He is an atheist. Please make note that he said, “Unless you assume A God…” There is a huge difference between the word God and A God. Right? Here is what he has to say about why he is not a Christian: “Therefore I take it that when I tell you why I am not a Christian I have to tell you two different things: first, why I do not believe in God and in immortality; and, secondly, why I do not think that Christ was the best and wisest of men, although I grant him a very high degree of moral goodness.” http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/russell0.htm
""The Message" is not a translation of biblical scripture. True translation is taking the original Greek and Hebrew texts, being very careful to preserve their true meaning as much as possible, word by word and phrase by phrase, while translating them into another language so that the exact meaning is kept intact, nothing is removed or added, and there is no discrepancy about what God is actually saying in the text. Anything outside of this is changes the true meaning of the Bible, and is re-wording God's Word. The Message in my mind would not be classified as a Bible. http://www.biblebb.com/files/tonyqa/tc05-186.htm
So…I say to all of you that you must read ALL of this book. Not just skip through it. Pay attention to what is going on. You can see the difference already on the very first page of this book in what David S presented to you and what I presented to you…or I hope you can. And there are people carrying this book around these days who have laid the Bible aside. Dear God in Heaven, help us!
David S...I ask you again. Are you a purpose driven pastor. Let me put it this way. If you were not a chaplain and was the pastor of a church, would you be a pastor of a purpose driven church? You seem to lean that way.
I am concerned that so many of you are saying you may not post anymore because you have been ugly, hateful, or argumentative.
I must confess that I felt that way the other night after being called on the carpet.
However, I want to share some thoughts with you along these
lines.
We are in a deeply intense spiritual battle here. I imagine it is just beginning to heat up. Things will not be all candy and flowers all the time.
I know there are some temperments (sorry if the term offends) that avoid conflict at all cost. Many of these folks are looking the other way but I'm sure some are lurking and occasionally post but just don't have the stomach for it.
Days ago I quoted the scriptures in Matthew where Jesus calls the Pharisees a generation of vipers, and whited sepulcres. I'm not advocating a lot of name calling but a spade is a spade.
Our battle is not against flesh and blood. It is against the forces of darkness. But when people who come here misuse scripture and purposefully antagonize, they are using the tactics of the evil one.
Just don't let them bully you into a guilt trip because you're not all peace and love. Neither was David when he slew the giant.
A lot is at stake here. Confrontation may be necessary, in my opinion, so better get your armor on.
I remember a story Dr. Rogers told once. He had just finished a debate with a liberal women's group about abortion when he ran
into one of the spokeswomen in the hall. They talked and in response to her argument about some pregnancies being stressful to the mother and therefore should be terminated, he said something along the lines of "What if I decided that your existence was stressful tome, and I wrapped my hands around your neck and squeezed the life out of you?" He said she backed away from him.
I don't think he was ashamed of this because he told it from the pulpit.
Folks, alot is at stake here. Don't be intentionally rude but speak the truth, confront error, don't back down.
This battle may not be for everyone.
(Someone else may remember the Dr. Rogers story a little better than I do so feel free to correct me if you want).
Piglet, THanks for your post. You are right: we are in a battle of epic proportions. But we do not battle alne. We have God on our side, and our brothers and sisters in Christ.
Keep the Faith and Have Hope.....
Hebrews 10
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering; (for he [is] faithful that promised;)
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Finance Guy- Thank you for your 12:18 A.M. post. It is one of the most profound I have read on this blog. Paul Williams has been running from a problem for a long time and it finally caught up with him. What can we learn from this fiasco? That running away from problems doesn't work- they always catch up with us. Unless BBC members have clear direction from the Lord, the temporary solution of running to any church (GBC or others) won't work. The immediate relief will be replaced with regret. Your reference to "wells we haven't dug" is from Deut. 6:11 and is appropriate to the discussion. Even if SG leaves, our church structure is broken. Men of BBC - stay so we can rebuild later.
Hi All:
There has been much written, criticized, and implied about Harry Smith. His name has even been linked with Dr. Gaines as among those that should leave Bellevue. Harry served on the CC committee and was made fun of when his answer was “I don’t know”. Some here have also questioned Harry’s honesty, openness and reputation. Some have posted that Harry is a power hungry person and has some hidden agenda for serving Bellevue. None of this is true. NONE! I am absolutely certain that Harry did in fact not know the answers, and replied with an honest “I don’t know”.
Harry Smith has been my personal friend for over 30 years. I know Harry Smith. I know his family and his ministry. I have never heard Harry tell a single untruth, NEVER! I have never heard anyone, other than those of you on this blog, call him dishonest. My friendship with Harry is real. Harry is the most generous person I know. He gives monies plentifully to Bellevue, Mid-America Seminary, and to numerous Christian needs. He gives secretly, and without recognition. Several years ago, Harry and I were in Tokyo Japan and we went to church there one Sunday morning. It was a small Baptist church, partly unfinished because they did not have the funds to finish construction of the back of the Church. Well, to this day, young American pastor of this small Baptist Church does not know where all of a sudden God provided the money to finish the Church. God, provided the money through Harry Smith.
I can also tell you that in business, Harry Smith operates unbendingly by Christian principles. Never have I witnessed him compromising them. NEVER!
I have prayed with Harry for God to lead us hundreds of times and been blessed by his faithful Christian walk. Harry Smith is my very dearest and best friend. You folks who are knocking Harry do not know him. He is a solid Christian brother. He makes mistakes just like all of do. Please do not speculate about Harry Smith’s character, integrity and honesty. His walk with our Lord is much different than has been posted on this Blog.
Hecanhear,
Thanks for your post re: Harry Smith
I don't know Harry personally but have had many people whom I trust say nothing but good things about him. With that being said, could you please tell me why he has stood by SG even when it was obvious he was not being honest with the congregation? And if he did not know the answers to those questions please tell us why he didn't get the answers and "get back to us". It looks like so much political wrangling to me. I have never accused Harry of not being honest, I have to question his judgement though. I pray the scales will be removed from his eyes and he will be able to see what direction our beloved Bellevue is headed.
david S said...
EZ,
I agree with what you just wrote. We are created by God for his will.
ezekiel said...
So we agree now that our purpose is the will of God and not the wrath of God?
Scion says:
Instead of a purpose-driven church, we should focus on being purpose-driven Christians! :)
Nass, yahoo email sent.
zeke,
Calvinist and Armenian alike will (or should) tell you that we serve God's will whether we know it or not. We're created beings, and we all serve the creator.
God's Word says that He wants all men to be saved. Are all men saved? No. Does that mean God's will is thwarted? Only if there is something able to successfully oppose Him, which there is not.
There is a great mystery in this that is not revealed to us, possibly because we couldn't understand it. I could throw out a lot of theological words and explanations, but if I did I'd only be showing my ignorance.
Regardless of the things I don't understand, I do understand that God hates and punishes sin. That's something I can apply to my own life.
Peace, y'all
"Multiple ways to heaven," eh?
EZ,
I knew you'd say that.
Davids wrote: "Okay, Ezek, would you like to submit a sound DOCTRINE Warren is opposed to? Don't use guilt by association; ie: becuase Warren spoke to a Cahtolic doesn't mean he prays to mary. Becuase warren endoresed a group does not mean he endoreses everything they do."
David, try this one. http://www.synagogue3000.org/video.html
Go to this site and scroll down to RW's videos of his presentation to Synagogue3000. He went there to teach PDL 'methods' to unbelievers and never once mentioned the gospel. They later wrote about in the Jewish Journal and praised Warren for never once mentioning the name of Jesus.
There are more examples of this behavior but I wil stop at this one because there are videos for the world to see.
davids"So, what foundational doctrine is Warren opposed to?"
Since you would probably not listen to me, how about going through this excellent tool developed by Bob Dewaay. It goes through PDL chapter by chapter comparing the verses used in PDL to a real translation and then showing the verse in actual context. It takes a while but if you are a real believer, you will be appalled and won't be promoting or defending RW anymore.
http://www.cicministry.org/berean.php
davids" Ezek, a straw man argument repositions the other side to its own liking, then attacks while totally misrepresenting the argument of the other person. Rick Warren never said “It is all about me, being happy, liking the music...” He STARTED his book telling people it’s not about them."
that is the first part. The entire rest of the book is about YOU. I have a friend that makes it a point to go the PDL studies. He takes a real bible and and asks the 'facilitator' to look up each verse (In PDL, they are referenced in the back from footnotes so that makes it harder..wonder why RW did that?) then he reads it in context. The next thing you know, they are OUT of PDL and studying scripture.
Davids "It’s that if this group complains too much about: Mac Brunson, Rick Warren, David Cox, and so on, it loses focus on the truly serious issues. If every pastor is bad, then your concerns get blown off in the process. "
There ARE a lot of bad ones. I have a question for you: Since when did ministry become a road to celebrity and wealth? Have you noticed this? I know there are thousands of poor unheard of pastors but now we have thousands of rich well known pastors who have built a cult of personality.
Christawrote: "Reconciliation efforts need a foundation of openly admitting wrong and transparently honoring truth. Obviously, I'm just an outsider...but from what I can read, it doesn't appear to me that anything like that is going on among the powers-that-be at Bellevue."
Christa, Blessings to you! You hit the nail on the head in your post. By insisting on inside counseling, they are controlling the process. Bad form, indeed. It is all about control.
Dear NOSCALES
Please email me - (my email is in my profile)
I will respond to you privatley by email. I don't want to get anyone else to speculate more about Harry Smith. Harry is a very Godly and does not deserve the negatives.
God Bless - - Hecanhear
Ezekiel,
Man, you should lighten up sometimes. I was simply trying to make a play on words. A joke. A pun.
Too bad a lot of you bloggers are so wrapped up in your arguments that you can't take time to laugh every now and then.
By the way, Ez, I am in no way a supporter of Warrenism. In fact, it goes against the grain of everything I have been raised to believe.
If anyone on this site wants to assume anything about me, then I welcome your assumptions. But go back and read my previous posts. If you read them literally, without any pre-dispositions or assumptions, then you will realize that I have yet to say anything on here that chooses a side in any of these matters.
My posts have been neutral, probing, philosophical, and rhetorical. Not judging, but ever seeking to get people to think about what they really believe, and to take action upon those beliefs if necessary.
Oh, I have opinions. Don't think that I don't. But the only side I'm interested in taking is the side of Jesus Christ.
Concernedsbcer wrote:Ima....I've been at work and I'm trying to catch up...I just read the posts on Pastor.com. I am (almost) speechless. It's such a disdain filled place...we are now called "wolves"????? Thank you for helping to arm us against this. I knew it was bad, and I knew I had major red flags...but it is hard to comprehend how calculating it is. And the number of people that are being swept into the warrenism/gcm movement is just plain frightening. We have to stay informed and watchful. "
Yep, any disagreement...no matter how lovingly presented is considered 'contentious' and getting in the way of the 'vision'. They are considered 'wolves'. How is that for twisting scripture. You know some of those 'dissentors' are seniors who show lots of wisdom. But they slow us down....you know.
You think what you read on pastors.com is bad? Try sitting in a meeting and hearing that FIRST HAND all the while the public is hailing your pastor as such a great man and your church such a great place and every church within a thousand miles wants to be just like yours. I felt like I was in satans den. I am still sick over what I saw.
About the by laws. I went to the site suggested but was afraid to post anything....
Check original by laws for how the church goes about removing a pastor.
Also, It would help if the pastor was more like the description Christ gave the disciples in the Beatitudes. :o)
Poor in Spirit: HUMBLE
Mourn: Hates their sin
Lindon: I went through a church split 9 years ago over warrenism. Our pastor made a trip to Saddleback and came back "with a new vision." Unfortunately, that vision went against our by-laws, our worship style and especially our older members. I was in a meeting where he actually said he didn't care what they thought, he was going to do it his way and they could leave if they didn't like it. I couldn't imagine saying that to the older people; it's just not scriptural. The last straw was when he stood at the pulpit and told us if we didn't raise our hands, and clap we weren't holy and we were "hard-hearted." However, I guess I was lucky he was on the leading fringe of the movement, because it sounds like things are much tougher now. *shakes head* It is not og God....talk about "checks of the spirit".....they are all over the place with that website and the movement.
Everyone, please get informed...this is a huge battle about protecting our families: from liars, pedophiles, and unscriptural teachings. I'm not as eloquent as some that bless us by posting here, but I know we have to stand up to this...or what we have treasured will be no more.
concernedbcer, Praise God that He kept your eyes open. So many fall for it. Losing your church is like a death in the immediate family, isn't it?
I know what you mean about coming back from Saddleback with the 'vision'. I sat through so many conferences like that. These people think they have 'discovered' how to worship God. But, it is not true Worship. It is entertainment. Meant to bring them back again and again. People love all the emotion, funny stories, cool music, etc. Which, none of that is wrong in and of itself except for the reasoning behind it.
I think Bellevue should Praise God for this crisis. (I almost did not want to write this because I feared some would think it insulting to the victim. It is not meant in that way. It is meant that this crisis may open some eyes)
If this crisis drives even one person to deep scripture study to walk closer with Christ in the Light, it was worth splitting a church over. If this crisis leads even one person to Christ who thought they were saved, but were not, it was worth the split. If this crisis leads one or two to be on their knees crying out to God for Mercy and cleansing, then it was worth the split.
Jesus thought one lamb was worth going after.
Ezekiel,
Thanks, my friend. I am new to the discussion, but have been a constant monitor for a couple of months.
I regret, however, that I will not be able to continue posting or even monitoring after this weekend. I am currently in the military, and I leave next week for a six month deployment "over there."
To all of you here on NBBCOF;
You all will continue to be in my prayers, and of course, so will Bellevue, and her pastor. It is my fervent desire that by the time I return, BBC and her members will have resolved the issues and will be reconciled to each other and to God. I hope and pray this, that it will come to pass, and that it will come to pass according to the will of God, and not the will of men. Whatever the will of God is in these matters, I also will continue to pray that He will open all of our hearts to that Will, and lead us wherein we should walk!
You guys keep fighting the fight, all of you, and keep standing up for what you believe in, as long as you are standing up for truth and integrity. Even you, ACE!
Scion, I will be praying for you. I appreciate our military more than I can say for sacrificing to keep us all safe. Please take care of yourself.
scion, My daughter and I will pray for you daily. You know what is so cool about this Body of Christ thing? I have no idea who 'scion' is but Jesus does and that is what matters.
Also, Thank you for going 'over there' to fight them so we don't have to 'over here'.
Thanks for all of your prayers.
I was born and raised at Bellevue, over 30 years ago. It has been my church home for all of my life.
However, I have spent the last few years in the military, stationed a thousand miles away from Memphis.
I have been looking forward to returning to Bellevue, and raising my children there as I was raised.
Now I wonder if I will even recognize Bellevue when I do come home.
Guys (and gals!) keep up the good work. Keep making a stand. I'll fight for your freedoms, and you fight to make those freedoms worthy of being kept.
Goodnight...
EZ,
Thank you, honestly, for your compliment and your concern for my immortal soul, friend.
I just sometimes don't understand why people of faith, of all stripes, feel they corner the market on spiritual truth or why it is fundemental to their interaction with those on another path.
I have been quiet, since most of the discourse regards theological and church government issues.
But I'm still watching and praying for y'all, truth-seekers.
scion...
Please know that not only do I love my Lord with all my heart, I also feel the same about my country! A patriotic old soul am I. You are precious in His sight...and in my sight as well. My husband and I will be praying for 'scion' and even though we don't know your name...like somebody has already said, God does. Thank you for defending us.
Blessings,
Ima
lin wrote:
If this crisis drives even one person to deep scripture study to walk closer with Christ in the Light, it was worth splitting a church over. If this crisis leads even one person to Christ who thought they were saved, but were not, it was worth the split. If this crisis leads one or two to be on their knees crying out to God for Mercy and cleansing, then it was worth the split.
lin,
You're really thinking outside the box here. Imho, you've spoken a very deep spiritual truth.
fj
To all reading:
It is time for many of you that have been just reading to contribute your thoughts to this discussion. The Pulpit side wants us to think that there are only a small number of people that think as we do. Now is the time to stqand up and be counted. A simple word form those of you that agree, sympathize or stand wavering would help to ease some of the "battle fatigue" that I am seeing setting in here.
NASS, it may be time for a new thread for this topic.
10:27 AM, January 24, 2007
To all of you that heard the call and encouraged the weary ones with your presence, thank you. There is no lonlier feeling than thinking that noone listens or cares. Anyone else care to stand and be counted? Welcome new posters.
____________
Piglet:
You and me are o.k. and tight, right?As
Trollcates said...
I just sometimes don't understand why people of faith, of all stripes, feel they corner the market on spiritual truth or why it is fundemental to their interaction with those on another path.
This is an easy question to answer:
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
If we did not believe that we have cornered the market on sprirtual truth, we would not be true to our faith, or to Christ.
He Can Hear,
Thank you for your post about Harry Smith. It sound like he has done some really good things with the blessings that God has given him.
I am concerned, though, about his one thing: After the last CC meeting, Harry was seen talking to Jeff Arnold and laughing and giving him the HIGH 5..now, why do you suppose that was?
I'll tell you.. They were celebrating the fact that they stonewalled the 200 plus people that sat in that meeting.
He likes his power at BBC. He isn't going to give it up. He answered " I dont' know " becuase he did not want to know!!!
He is protecting SG in order to protect his own power.
Since he is your friend, perhaps you could talk to him about the sinful nature of pride and power.
Aslansown
We're great! :)
I just want everyone to be prepared for what is coming.
Spiritual warfare isn't for wimps and chickens. It is for brave soldiers and bold piggies! :O>
david s...said
"IMA, and thank you for informing me that B. Russell is an athiest... gosh, how did I get through school and not learn that." Probably for the same reason you decided to exclude it in your post...it doesn't make a lot of sense to be there to start with.
"Warren was citing Russell becuase even an athiest can see that without God, life has no meaning." This is weak reasoning...IMHO. Did you read anywhere this is the reason Warren gave for using this here? Or is this just your opinion?
"FYI, I did not purposely leave something out of the body of the text quoted. The Scripture was at the top of the page, I was dealing with what RICK wrote, not what God wrote. But you seem to have a problem with that as well." Since it was all on the very first page in his book, I would deem it relative myself, but then that is just my opinion. Especially since there is a quote by an atheist. And I find it hard to believe that he used the quote of an atheist because even an athiest can see that without God, life has no meaning." This atheist doesn't even recognize God. This statement is without substance. And for the record, I never have a problem with what God has written...which is what I call the Bible.
I thought I remembered you saying you were the pastor of the marines and sailors? Something to that effect. Thought from that you were a chaplian. Guess not.
Anyway...I am not arguing this point with you. You may call it a mild debate of difference of opinion if you like. I really don't see how anyone can read this book and coming away from it thinking it is biblical, especially a man of the cloth. I can't even see it as a good devotional book or a book of inspiration.
Warren is responsible for splitting many churches and wrecking lives within these churches. The sooner his followers can recognize that and everybody can move on and try to right the wrongs, the better off the Body of Christ will be.
Remember, "The Bible plus nothing"
NBBCOF said:
Congratulations! You have an excellent grasp of the obvious!
Sorry but is that meant as a sarcastic remark towards me or am I reading it wrong?
Hey Piglet
OOOOIIIINk!
Sounds a lot like the shofar.
As
trollcates
With all due respect, if there really is spiritual truth and it's not just a figment of your imagination,why would it be any different than math or science?
2 + 2 = 4 no matter how you feel about it and no matter how much you think it should be 3.
You can't boil water in the freezer.
Why is it that in matters of the soul so many believe there is no absolute answer?
I'm really interested. I'm not sneaking up on you to evangelise.:)
memphis
How was orchestra rehearsal?
Is it true that all the mikes are turned off on the orchestra except on the percussion section?
memphis wrote:
"NBBCOF said:
"Congratulations! You have an excellent grasp of the obvious!"
"Sorry but is that meant as a sarcastic remark towards me or am I reading it wrong?"
Oh, no. I was just agreeing with you. :-) No sarcasm intended.
Charlie,
Did you see my TWO disclaimers?
Yes.
Yep, that's me. He erroneously accused me of being the FAKE ACE, and I had to clear my GOOD NAME.
As Memphis said...
I seem to recall Ace saying in the original post that if it was not you, then he was sorry.
Go read back, I did say that....so calm down, don't worry...everything will be okay.
Piglet, I would have no clue how it went?????
NBBCOF,
No, sir, I did NOT intentionally leave any posts by the "fake ace" up, but if you had asked politely I would have been happy to go find them and remove them.
I love it how you take my quote out of context and not post my entire post....you seemed to forget about the part where I said:
Perhaps you didn't know this until now, so I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt.
NBBCOF then said....
However, since you've chosen to publicly accuse me of being a liar, then they can just stand.
I never called you a liar. Please don't say things I didn't say and then say I said it!
I would suggest you change your screen name or just don't comment or whatever you want to do, but I'm through, so deal with it.
Why didn't Tim have to change his name or just "deal with it" - I don't think favortism is fair.
Maybe I'll just delete everything with "ace" on it from now on. That will automatically take care of any "fake ace's" that show up.
If you want to censor the truth then by all means do that. Just edit your forum rules and say that only Anti-Bellevue people are allowed to post.
There is no need for you to respond to this, I am not expecting one. Thank you for addressing my post even though you misunderstood it.
The other day I challenged everyone to approach BBC friends and acquaintances that are on the fence with the need for bylaws including business meetings.
I hope some of you will have that opportunity. Most people will admit that we need business meetings and updated bylaws.
I think most would also agree to pray for God's will and the truth to prevail.
Memphis
Sorry, thought you were in the orchestra.
and piglet, why would you think I knew anything about the orchestra?
Memphis
Maybe I had you mixed up with Ace. I'm not sure where I got that idea. :/
Piglet,
And why would you think I'm in orchestra? And, to answer your question, I'm not even entirely sure if the drums get a mic. ;)
Nope we have our own band, Ace sings and I play harmonica! :)
For the record, Stephen Coombs, I happen to be PRO Bellevue...Pro accountability, PRo transparency, PRO PROTECT THE CHILDREN,
And if SG can fit into that, fine..he can come and join US and be PRO BELLEVUE too.
I play the cowbell in the band.
bkjrm
Thanks! :D
Astounded,
So the difference between yours and all the other fudementalist religions is that you worship the one true God.
I got it.
I saw something somewhere once under the title, "What we (God) believes."
The deduction implied the Bible answers the question easily makes it axiomatic that it is the final authority of spiritual truth; if that is not an assumption one is able or willing to swallow, it is quite paradoxical that, in order to believe in your God, I must first believe in your scripture.
May I pose this question: Do you think religious fundementalism (not just Christianity) contributes strife and ennui between peoples of the world?
May you all find peace and renewal over the coming weeks, friends.
bkjrm,
Thanks so much. Please join in.
Ima
Trollcakes,
I have not had the pleasure of addressing you yet.
I want to say that I am fascinated by your posts and your command of the written word.
Most of the time, you are soo far over my head that I have a difficult time following you.
I'm thinking that I don't agree with your religious convictions, but I sure do enjoy reading the wording of your posts.
:)
trollcates said...
May I pose this question: Do you think religious fundementalism (not just Christianity) contributes strife and ennui between peoples of the world?
Before I can answer your question I need to know your definition of religious fundamentalism. First of all, I do not relate Christianity with religious fundamentalism (I really don't equate Christianity as a religion).
HeCanHear,
Thank you for your testimony of friendship to Mr Smith. I have had the utmost respect for Mr Smith in the past.
What do you think would happen to an employee of Mr Smith's who came to a Board Meeting to answer serious questions and allegations and could only respond "I don't know". Then come back to the next meeting and respond "I don't know", again and again. Do you think that person would still be employed by MR Smith? I don't think so.
I beleive Mr Smith has been a wonderful example to many people in many areas. He has been to me personally. I believe he is a brilliant and blessed man. This is why I cannot believe that his intent was to "be open" and answer questions. In fact it defies my ability to reason that in any circumstance Mr Smith would be understanding of one of his trusted employees not to provide exacting answers if not the first meeting, certainly the next. Can you imagine one of his Officers of one of his companies telling him repeatedly "I don't know"?
I do not desire for anyone to leave. I desire for these men to be honarable, truthful (not half truth). They all know what this means. They have all taught it to us in Sunday School.
I was exactly like you. I believed it was impossible that these men were "hiding" things from the congregation. Ask your friend some specific questions. You pick them. Start off asking questions about anything but church. You will get direct answers. Then, ask questions about circumstances at BBC. (If you do get the same type of direct answers, please share them with us. This is all we have been asking to begin with.)
People forget that the first lie was told about bylaws by Mark Daugherty(this is a fact). Then a wall went up when individuals would ask specific questions. Then claims that those who asked questions did not trust the pastor. Then we were called dissenters, disgruntled, etc...
All we ask for was direct talk. I believe Mr Smith is absolutely capable of answering or getting the answer to any question that was asked. I believe Mr Smith has the authority to get an appropriate answer to every question that was asked. So why not answer? This is very confusing. You can substitute Mr Smith name with many others.
I hate that I have lost respect for these men whom I thought were above reproach. Please, Mr Smith still has all of the quewstions. If you could help us to get some answers, maybe we could understand.
Unfortunately, BBC is being run like a secular business. We change with the wind to please our "customers". We check the trends to attract new "customers". Where does God speak of this in the Bible?
I believe all you have said regarding Mr Smiths generousity and works. I have prayed fervently that God would show me where I am wrong so I can change and not feel this way towards those I counted as friends.
Our Search Committee took the trust that our congregation entrusted them with and decided that they would change our church culture without regard for the sheep of BBC. It has in fact been said that if they would have informed the congregation of these changes beforehand, people would have left. It is evident to me that these have been calculated changes.
SG told this committee up front of his intent to change the culture of BBC. Why didn't SG tell BBC of this plan before we voted? Why not the committee tell the congregation before we voted? Since the committee has not answered this question, we are only left to Blog, to assume the only reason any of us would hide or conceal information...they did not want us to know before we voted.
It has really become comical to me how everyone walks around in shock that someone has accused someone of not being truthful (hiding the truth) or lying (not telling what you know to be the truth) or being deceiving (keeping the known truth from others). We are all capable. In fact many have practiced these things on this blog.
This is not rocket science. Trust will be restored when these men show themselves to be trustworthy. In time, it can happen. In fact, we will see Sunday when we recceive the report. Will it be honest and truthful or a good spin written by some good business men.
Are we more interested in pleasing God or making everything appear to look good?
Dear friend Piglet,
I think religious history and the strife between peoples of faith today are a measure of truth, perhaps not of the soul, but of consequences for ennui spawned of competing hegemonic belief systems.
No, I don't see the doctrine of original sin, man's inherited separation from God and the tapestry of beliefs there derived are not as axiomatic as 2=2=4.
Sorry to waste space with this, but in the interest of fairness, here's the message to which I was responding -- in it's entirety. Judge for yourself if my truthfulness was in question. When one says, "I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt," one doesn't typically preface it with "Come on! You know as well as I do, that's not the full truth."
ace said...
"NBBCOF,
"For the record, NBBCOF removed the comments from the fake ace last night as soon as they were found."
"Come on! You know as well as I do, that's not the full truth. Yes, you removed 4 or 5 posts, but you left the rest of them up.
"IN the thread...'Paul Williams Fired' the following posts are not mine. Perhaps you didn't know this until now, so I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. However, I trust that they will be removed now that I have brought it up to you once again.
"The following posts are NOT mine:
11:04 PM, January 22, 2007
11:13 PM, January 22, 2007
11:18 PM, January 22, 2007
11:19 PM, January 22, 2007
11:26 PM, January 22, 2007
11:28 PM, January 22, 2007
11:30 PM, January 22, 2007
11:35 PM, January 22, 2007
11:43 PM, January 22, 2007
"Have fun deleting!"
1:01 PM, January 24, 2007
bbc refugee
Great post.
Harry Smith is a shrewd businessman. If it appears that Gaines is losing support, I would be watching to see if Harry starts to distance himself in order to keep himself afloat. Time will tell.
Fundementalism is the belief that your religion, faith, God, or whatever is the sole one, and everyone else is unfortunately wrong.
Trollcates said...
...
May I pose this question: Do you think religious fundementalism (not just Christianity) contributes strife and ennui between peoples of the world?
If I may, fundamentalism is not always a bad thing. To adhere to the fundamentals of some discipline can be good, or horrible, depending on the discipline.
Is being a basketball fundamentalist a bad thing when playing basketball? Of course not. Making the extra pass, good spacing on offense, getting back in transition, giving up your body to make a good screen or draw a charge--these are things that are fundamental to the sport; teams that adhere to the fundamentals give themselves more opportunities to be successful.
Adhering to the fundamentals of human-constructed religion, on the other hand, does not ultimately produce positive results and can often produce very negative results. Let's say, for example, that an individual is an adherent of a religion that advocates the death or forced subjugation of those not inclined to share the religion's belief system Being a fundamentalist of that religion can precipitate a great deal of strife, particularly when that type of fundamentalist appears en masse. (As for "ennui," I don't know if that's the word you were looking for, since such fundamentalism is anything but boring.)
Adhering to the fundamentals of Christianity means (gasp!) sharing Christ with others as we have the opportunity, discipling those who accept Him, and both praying for and ministering to those who have not.
I hope that helps.
--Mike
I've been a freelance writer for many years, although I think I could use an editot here for all my typos.
NBBCOF,
Sorry to waste space with this, but in the interest of fairness, here's the message to which I was responding -- in it's entirety. Judge for yourself if my truthfulness was in question.
Great idea...let people judge for themselves.... good job.
HeCanHear,
I agree with BBC Refugee. Harry Smith has allowed Steve Gaines to spend his integrity.
It was Harry Smith who betrayted the trust of Linda Whitmire to Steve Gaines.
Harry Smith was a witness to the hateful appology issued by Steve Gaines to Mr & Mrs Whitmire. Harry witnessed first hand his arrogant attitude, the lack of self control, the lack of humility and the failure to be humble.
It appears that an effort is being made to now distance himself from Steve Gaines. Perhaps Harry Smith will be the first to jump ship. There was a time when it would have been a good idea to abandon ship. The waters are too turbulent at this time to survive in our out of the boat however.
Trollcakes? Are you sweet on me?
BJKRM said:
What kind of pastor can sit back and watch us tear each other apart.
response:
A self serving, narcisstic, self centered, egocentric pastor with excessive self love and vanity?
Ralphie,
Thanks for the post, I appreciated it greatly. I think part of the problem is this. People know what I stand for. They know I am in the minority so they discredit everything I say before they even read my posts. But I just think that's one little problem out of the many here...
Thanks again.
Ennui is not boredom; it certainly may includes that, but it more signifies continual annoyance. It is that to which I refer, friend. Thanks for responding.
Trollcates
My point is that it is just not logical that we can both be right.
It makes more sense if you believe you are right and I am wrong. This idea that all roads lead to heaven (or wherever) may sound fuzzy but isn't practical.
This new age idea seems to be the prevailing view of the day but it defies common sense.
You don't have to respond to me , but if you do, don't use too many big words. :(
TrollCAKES said:
Trollcakes? Are you sweet on me?
RESPONSE:
ROFL!!! see? I can't even get your name right!!!!
LOLOL!
Yeah, I'm kinda sweet on you..who wouldn't be with all that fancy talking?
ICU Nurse to Doc Bellevue said...
...
It appears that an effort is being made to now distance himself from Steve Gaines. Perhaps Harry Smith will be the first to jump ship. There was a time when it would have been a good idea to abandon ship. The waters are too turbulent at this time to survive in our out of the boat however.
That reminded me of something we all need to remember:
Matthew 8
18 Now when Jesus saw great multitudes about him, he gave commandment to depart unto the other side. 19 And a certain scribe came, and said unto him, Master, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest. 20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head. 21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. 22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
23 And when he was entered into a ship, his disciples followed him. 24 And, behold, there arose a great tempest in the sea, insomuch that the ship was covered with the waves: but he was asleep. 25 And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish. 26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm. 27 But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!
--Mike
trollcates
According to your definition, I am a Christian fundamentalist. Does that make me a Crusader? No. Does that make me a Spanish Conquistador? No. The strife caused in the name of Christianity is not of Christ nor does it follow His teachings. The misapplication of Christian fundamentalism does contribute to the strife of the world.
In Islam, I do believe that Islamic fundamentalism leads to strife if you interpret the Quran literally as I do the Bible.
Well, (tongue and cheek reference to prior debate) "common sense" is not found in the Bible, so I wouldn't put too much faith in it.
Trollcates said...
Ennui is not boredom; it certainly may includes that, but it more signifies continual annoyance. It is that to which I refer, friend. Thanks for responding.
And thank you for clarifying your word choice--it was my hunch you meant something along those lines, which is why I brought it up.
(Always love to hear "ennui" rhymed with "spree" in the song "I Get A Kick Out Of You," by the way. Can't read, see or hear the word without remembering that song. Yes, I'm a big Sinatra fan.)
I'd appreciate your comments on the rest of my observations, if you have the opportunity.
--Mike
Do Ace ( SC) and Ralphie live in the same computer?
Sick,
Do Ace ( SC) and Ralphie live in the same computer?
I post as Ace and Ace alone. I do not know Ralphie.
Ok, sorry, Stephen, just checking.
Two posts, four minutes and a mindset apart:
1) ralphie said...
...
How are we any different from the people we say are doing wrong if we bad-mouth and attack each other? Christian maturity calls us to a higher standard.
11:43 PM, January 24, 2007
2) sickofthelies said...
BJKRM said:
What kind of pastor can sit back and watch us tear each other apart.
response:
A self serving, narcisstic, self centered, egocentric pastor with excessive self love and vanity?
11:47 PM, January 24, 2007
As the song says, "One of these things is not like the other."
--Mike
Sick,
Ok, sorry, Stephen, just checking.
Stephen? Where did you get that name from?
ralphie said...
can't you see that ACE is not the problem? He/she is not the enemy.
I earnestly hope that none of us seen any other of our brothers and sisters as the "enemy", no matter what "side" of this issue we may fall on.
stephen,
;)
Mike,
Perhaps I'm dense, but what does Matthew 8 have to do with Harry Smith jumping ship?
You and trollcakes..always waaay over my head!
ATTENTION! Do not listen to anything that Ace says. He is getting paid to monitor these forums and report back to Steve Gaines.
I know EXACTLY who Ace is and while I won't publicly post his name for his privacy, email me at thetruthaboutace@yahoo.com and I will tell you who he is!!!
Ace, you are too sloppy about covering your trails. Sorry bub.
Mike (and others),
The reason I used "ennui" and "strife" is because they, in general describe the no man's land between hegemonic faiths, without lumping murderers and haters with staunch church folk--I know the difference.
However, I know that faith is subjective (Kieirkigaard) and if discerning who God really is were as easy as an addition problem or a passage out of a book, evryone would come to the same conclusion; thus this disconnect is a continuity that ranges from mild distain to outright war.
I don't think any of this is divine, but man's folly.
Sickofthelies,
stephen,
Again, I say...huh? Think as you like!
truth,
you have mail :)
TheTruthAboutAce,
ATTENTION! Do not listen to anything that Ace says. He is getting paid to monitor these forums and report back to Steve Gaines.
Uhm, let me see.... that's a lie. Try getting your facts straight.
I know EXACTLY who Ace is and while I won't publicly post his name for his privacy, email me at thetruthaboutace@yahoo.com and I will tell you who he is!!!
Oh, sure, that's a way of keeping Ace's privacy, still giving out the info. As I've said before when people claim to know who I am....I have nothing to hide. Post away if you want, I really don't care.
sickofthelies said...
Mike,
Perhaps I'm dense, but what does Matthew 8 have to do with Harry Smith jumping ship?
The water was rough for the apostles, but their problem was that they had forgotten what Jesus had already commanded--that they were to go to the other side.
Perhaps it's the lateness of the hour, but it seemed like an appropriate time for that reminder.
You and trollcakes..always waaay over my head!
Well, I don't know about that, but thanks for the compliment.
--Mike
I know who ACE is--he's Batman!
I have to go to bed y'all. Thanks for not dismissing me, in hand.
I intend to return to Bellevue Sunday night for the report. Two weeks in a row--oi!
Remember y'all,
You're on the same team--don't jack with each other.
Scion,
I have printed your picture from your profile so that I can "see you" as I pray for you while you are gone. Thank you for your courage and for giving of yourself!
trollcates said...
However, I know that faith is subjective (Kieirkigaard) and if discerning who God really is were as easy as an addition problem or a passage out of a book, evryone would come to the same conclusion; thus this disconnect is a continuity that ranges from mild distain to outright war.
I don't think any of this is divine, but man's folly.
I am having some trouble following your lead on this. Are you saying that the bulk of wars are fought because of religious intolerism? I have heard many people say that more people die in the name of God than any other cause.
goodnight trollcakes
TheTruthAboutAce said...
PEOPLE - I have not received any emails yet. Is yahoo reliable? I just created the account...so bear with me, it may take a while to activate. If you don't hear back from me by tomorrow a.m., please resend your email.
Call me crazy, but there might (hopefully) be another reason you haven't gotten any takers yet...
ACE - you are an evil person for helping BBC during these tough times and I will EXPOSE you for who you are. Say your prayers, buddy.
Please tell us that's just a poorly-executed joke.
--Mike
"Are you saying that the bulk of wars are fought because of religious intolerism?"
No. But plenty are. I think what I stated is enough to derive my meaning without assuming anymore.
I don't think intolerance is an ism yet, at least I hope not.
Lindon,
You sound like a self righteous Pharisee. Stack up your accomplishments for Christ and compare that list to the man you deomonize Rick Warren.
Could it be you are just envious? Is it Ricks fault he has sold over 100 million books? Sounds like God is blessing him because he has been faithful to his calling.
That man has a true pastors heart. Maybe you are homophobic because Rick has taken up the cause to help fight aids.
I dont know too many pastors who would start a church from scratch, meet in rented rooms and tents for fifteen years before they ever got a building.
Again Lindon, you really appear to cut down anyone who is bigger than you with all your theological knowledge, you should know better.
Ezekiel,
Listen to your wife, she is right.
David S.,
Sorry…I didn’t realize we were arguing at all, much less arguing about everything. I just thought I remembered you saying you were a chaplain, when in fact you said you are the pastor of 400 Marines/Sailors. My mistake, but surely you can see why I thought that. Remarks like “Is this clear enough?” seems to me to be a form of chastisement and childish. Actually it sounds sarcastic as well which I would find to be very “un” Christlike, which you are accusing me of.
On your last paragraph, you are putting words in my mouth. I did not say, “I don’t want to argue with you anymore.” I did not say, “I want my say, but don’t bother to respond because I’m talking to you.” (???) I didn’t imply these things.
Actually, I would define this entire dialogue as you ‘picking on me’, which I find very unbecoming from a man of the cloth. However, I again see this as indicative of a Warren follower.
Now, if you’d like to continue a reasonable conversation with me I am game. However, due to our differences of opinion concerning Rick Warren and his transitional heretics on established churches, I am certain we won’t agree on much. I just see this as a dead-end and think if we continue we will just be wasting each other’s time and casting a darkness on our witness. I am a victim of the PD movement, and as such have no tolerance for what is going on in these churches today. Anyone who does not understand this has little in common with me. Christlike? I see nothing Christlike in the attitude nor actions of those imposing and/or forcing their culture changes on others who recognize it for what it is…heresy.
Here is what I said, “Anyway...I am not arguing this point with you. You may call it a mild debate of difference of opinion if you like.” I would ask that you don't paraphrase my words should we continue in conversation.
Please know that I love you in the Lord and wish you well in your life's journey.
Blessings,
Ima
David S and Terry,
You will find that folks like imaresistor and lindon are so full of bitterness and judgementalism that it isn't even worth addressing their ad hominem attacks against Rick Warren. A few days ago I wrote a few things about the work that Saddleback does all over the world and the awesome impact they are having for the kingdom of God. I am not sure if it is jealousy or what. But, both of these women have set themselves up as the orthodox police.
ima just called Warren's followers "heretics". SFirst of all, I know a number of them and they are humble followers of Jesus and would not be followers of anyone. Regardless, "heretic" is a word with a distinct meaning, which would not apply to them simply they may follow the PDL methods of church growth.
The name calling is sad and pathetic and uncalled for, but I have been reading this blog since last fall and I assure you that there are two or three on here who you will not change - either in their polemics or the epistomology or in their bitter demagoguery, so I would encourage you to continue to follow Jesus and your heart.
Thank God for the ministry of Rick Warren!! While a couple of his harshest critics here on this blog are getting callouses on their fingers from the keyboards, he and his church are truly making a difference all over the world
david s...said
"I'm going to go cry!"
Well, I think I may cry too. So lets us just have a good cry together and move on. You aren't going to change my mind and I'm not going to change your mind. I don't even think trying to is worth the effort for either of us.
But you do need to loosen up on me. I am a victim and it shouldn't be made light of. I am not a victim of physical abuse, but of spiritual abuse. I really take exception to your making light of my pain. As a pastor, I should think you might even care about that?
Anyway...I gave you my blessings because I am a child of God. You are my brother in Christ. Any disagreement we might have does not mean I don't love you as a brother/sister in Christ.
By any chance do you live in or near California. LA or maybe San Diego? Just curious. Following my instinct.
Blessings,
Ima
Lindon,
truthbtold said, "You will find that folks like imaresistor and lindon are so full of bitterness and judgementalism that it isn't even worth addressing their ad hominem attacks against Rick Warren. A few days ago I wrote a few things about the work that Saddleback does all over the world and the awesome impact they are having for the kingdom of God. I am not sure if it is jealousy or what. But, both of these women have set themselves up as the orthodox police."
Uh oh Lindon…looks like we are in trouble! We are caught red handed!
He says it isn’t even worth addressing our ad hominem attacks against Rick Warren, yet that is exactly what he is doing. Sort of like talking out of both sides of you mouth wouldn’t you say? He also says that you and I are so full of bitterness and judgementalism, yet it would seem to me that he is the bitter one and the one judging us? And then he speculates that we might be jealous…of what? What is the world would you or I have to be jealours of that this man is talking about? I am not a jealous person anyway…not at all. Then he says we have set ourselves up as orthodox police…well, praise the Lord! But…I don’t even have a night stick, do you?
Then, of course, he goes on to say how wonderful Rick Warren is, etc. I guess we are bringing them out of the woodwork, huh Lindon? They are identifying themselves. That is great!
It is the Bible…plus nothing.
Ima
Dear blogers:
Thanks for the kind comments from my last post. I was about as low as I could be over all this mess.
Concerning Harry Smith:
Mr. Smith,
On Sept.24,2006, my family and I came away from the church thinking,if
there was one honest person on the stage that night it was you, I am so sorry to report, as of today, all we can say is "boy did he do a snow job on us." Seem some more folks feel the same way.
My dear grandmother use to say "pretty is, as pretty does."
My Mom use to say "you are known by the company you keep."
My Mom also use to say " you cannot pull another person up to your standards, but they can pull you down to their's."
David, Terry Smith and truthbtold,
Please take some time to check out these two resources. There are many more but both of these are very clear.
1. Synagogue3000
http://www.synagogue3000.org/video.html
Videos of RW teaching PDL 'techniques' to Jewish leaders. He never tells them the gospel message. They praise him for never mentioning Jesus while there later in the Jewish Journal.
2. PDL Discernment Tool
http://www.cicministry.org/berean.php
This tool is very comprehensive and goes through the PDL book chapter by chapter expositing scripture that RW references throughout the book.
Sorry, I cannot make direct links work..my html keeps bringing up an engine error. Just copy the url into your browser.
Thanks, Lindon
david s,
I say this of of pure Brotherly Love. You need to lighten up and back off.
1. I know who imarsistor is and imaresistor's story. You have imaresistor figured ALL WRONG.
2. As a pastor, you are seriously damaging your credibility and witness.
david s
I feel very sorry for you and even more so for the ones you minister? to.
You really don't need to take up for Rick Warren. In my opinion, he has the full backing of Satan. Do you have a mandate to come on this blog and attack a hurting people? It really is not needed. We have enough of his backers locally to do the job.
To lindon, ima, karen, hulda, aog, ezekiel, FG, 25+ and all the others standing in the gap for truth and light - A heartfelt thank you. I can understand how tired you must be because it is even draining just reading it without personally responding.
david s...
I have asked you several times if you live in or near CA...LA or San Diego perhaps. You have yet to answer that question. I suspect that you live near Saddleback and now you have admitted to having been there. Maybe you were just there for a conference? Do you know Rick Warren personally, work for him at Saddleback, or are affiliated with him in any way?
Imaresistor,
YOU HAVE MAIL!!!
You would expect to see both Bibles and PDL at Saddleback. That, again, is not what I was saying. I am saying that the purpose driven live book is being used in leiu of Bibles elsewhere too. I know of a case where a man was told to leave because he had brought his
Bible to class instead of the PDL...this was of course in a PD church. Below (if the link works) is an audio of a group of people from Saddleback who went on a mission to South America. You will see for yourself it is the Purpose Driven Life book that is distributed instead of the Bible. Again, I will STAND STRONG and
say I find this repugnant! These books should not be taking place of God's Word...I don't care who says differently. There is being preached in our land a different gospel! That is a false teaching. Here is the website...you will have to copy and paste. Keeps telling me the tag is broken. Think it is too long. Anyway, if you will scroll down a bit first, you will see the pictures if you don't want to watch all of the video.
http//www.extremetheology.com/2006/12/missionaries_fo.html
david s,
I am calm.
This should get you there.
And, yes, I am sure about what I said. I wouldn't have said it otherwise.
Try this:
http://www.extremetheology.com/2006/12/
missionaries_fo.html
Sorry about the other link...appears I didn't complete it.
Ima
david s...said,
"Anyway, at Saddleback they have Bibles. They do not use the Purpose Driven life to teach from. Actually, the book is a collection of his teaching."
Please do, if you don't mind, explain to me what you mean by, "actually, the book is a collection of his teaching." Is this the book he uses to teach from out of the pulpit? What exactly? I don't understand? Thanks.
Carol t...
Thank you.
Ima
Carol, thanks for your kinds words.
David, I do not know about free Bibles at Saddleback. (I have been there and no scripture was referenced during the sermon, though on that occassion nor in any of the conferences except mentioned in passing)
I do know they are passing out PDL on their PEACE mission trips. Several reports have come back that PDL was distributed in South America but not Bibles. I was not there but I did see lots of pictures of indigenous people with their Spanish version of PDL and being taught from it.
Here is the link to the Jewish Journal article.
http://www.jewishjournal.com/home/searchview.php?id=16029
Let me say before you read this that I am totally pro-Israel. I just have a problem with a minister teaching ‘techniques’ to grow synagogues instead of teaching the gospel. That sounds critical because it is.
I offer this to you as factual information and not just random unfounded criticism of another professing Christian.
May His Name be Magnified
david s...
You might need to start calming me down again. *smiling*
Let us just suffice it to say and I think you will agree...
I am a child of God...I am NOT a child of Rick Warren. And never will I be.
Should I go to a mission field as a missionary wherever that might be...it would be MY choice to give the poor villagers the Bible and tell them about Jesus. NOT...and I repeat NOT some drummed up dribble by some mega preacher nobody will remember fifty years from now! GOD'S WORD IS EVERLASTING!!! Rick Warren is a mortal like the rest of us. Dear God in heaven help us!
You got to remember that this book is being left for these people. They are studying what is left for them. Don't you really think it would be better for them to study the REAL thing, rather than some mortal's opinion of it. Don't get all caught up in counterfeit...get caught up in JESUS! Nobody is going to be saved from studying Rick Warren.
Would you agree?
Ima
Its the Bible...plus nothing.
David, if you like scripture exposited, you will love the PDL discernment tool.
And, I hate to say it, but I have plenty more examples.
Also, I hope you understand that I cannot name names here but since he went to Syria spoke for 80% of Americans, invited Barak Obama, and was caught in some lies about the Syria trip, there have been some unhappy Saddlebackers. They were shown the door when they spoke up.
EZ: I hate to disappoint you my friend, but I believe in a real, geographic Israel. I guess I cannot get past the fact that it is playing out right before our eyes. You know, I am an amatuer historian and one thing that really gave me pause was reading about the UN vote to make Israel a nation.
The vote really hinged on the Russians. Most people do not know that Russia has consistently persecuted and murdered Jews for the last 200 years! They despise Jews and have been pro-Arab throughout history.
So, when Russia voted for Israel, it shocked the world. Even the Soviets could not explain it themselves. There have been many explanations put forth by Russian historians and those in government at the time but none are the same reason.
It was God.
This is just one reason. I have about 10,000 other reasons.
I don't want to debate it in detail because I do not think it is a matter of salvation.
It's the false teaching that gets to me. The teaching on easy believism, repentless Christianity that is infesting our churches.
I know you agree that we have almost ignored Matt 7. I find it strange that more pastors do not point out that Jesus is talking to 'professing believers' in that passage and many others.
Scary, huh? Again, I love the Jews and I want them back in their homeland but I also witness to them.
Friendinjx and All,
I had asked that friendinjx email me, but he hasn’t. It is just as important that the rest of you read this as well and I hope he will run across this post.
It doesn’t surprise me that Mac Brunson is ignoring requests to exclude Steve Gaines from the itinerary for the conference at First Baptist Church in Jacksonville. I would think it would be an honor for him to have the prestigious pastor from Bellevue Baptist Church to speak at his church as a part of this conference. It is just as Liberty in Christ told you in an earlier post, birds of a feather do flock together. This blogger offered proof, and I am about to offer more.
In the book, “Transitioning-Leading Your Church Through Change”, the author, Dan Southerland, offers on page twenty-eight, a list of model churches of which one should strive to copy. They are in the order given:
(1) First Baptist Church of Jacksonville
(2) Willow Creek Community in Chicago
(3) Saddleback Church in South Orange County
(4) Eastside Foursquare Church in Seattle
(5) Wooddale Church in Minneapolis
The common denominator is the purpose driven movement – the seeker sensitive phenomena; that which increases the numbers meaning nickels and noses. This is the ace…the drawing card; that which binds them together. It becomes a contest – who has the biggest and best. They converge and the biggest stars are the guest speakers. Don’t you see? Mac Brunson and Steve Gainese are buddies. They are all in this together. To think that Mac Brunson would dispel Steve Gaines from this list for a few resisters from his church…well, lets just suffice it to say it isn’t going to happen. They are joined at the hip. Look back at the list. First Baptist Church of Jacksonville, Florida is a PD church.
Liberty in Christ gave you this address and the information contained there in. Please do yourselves a great service and go there. Listen to Betty Irwin’s story. Listen to other PD stories on the previous broadcasts. They are on this website…lots of them. Just look under the archived broadcast…you can find them. You will be listening to the cries you are now crying yourselves. Here is the link to it again:
http://www.swrc.com/broadcasts/2005/march.htm and by 11/07, 11/11, 11/24, 2004 and 1/6 2005 letters by Betty Erwin to Mr. & Mrs. Mac Brunson and another former pastor at Dallas First Baptist Church, and telephone interview March 2005."
It isn’t about winning souls…it is about filling the pews. Once again…nickels and noses. And it continues to get worse.
Ima
imaresistor
I FINALLY got into Pastors.com and read the meanspirited posts of PD pastors who consider their members disposable people.
This sounds like a group of EGOMANIACS on a luxurious POWER TRIP.
They boast about members not being able to get into leadership.
They leave no room for God's movement or direction in the lives of the members or in the church body. It's all a prefabricated scheme to follow a certain pattern.
Would they know God's will if it bit them on the nose? They would probably consider God's will an obstacle to overcome in order to achieve their dictatorship.
Satan sure is subtle.
These pastor's really think they are on a divine mission.
imaresistor
I FINALLY got into Pastors.com and read the meanspirited posts of PD pastors who consider their members disposable people.
This sounds like a group of EGOMANIACS on a luxurious POWER TRIP.
They boast about members not being able to get into leadership.
They leave no room for God's movement or direction in the lives of the members or in the church body. It's all a prefabricated scheme to follow a certain pattern.
Would they know God's will if it bit them on the nose? They would probably consider God's will an obstacle to overcome in order to achieve their dictatorship.
Satan sure is subtle.
These pastor's really think they are on a divine mission.
NASS
Sorry. Another duplicate post. Don't know HOW I did it! :/
Please delete one, ok?
Thanks again! :)
I have a hard time believing they actually put that on pastors.com. I would not have believed they could be so brazen if I had not read it myself.
But, I have heard much worse in person. Much worse.
Have you all been following the latest trend in GCM? Satellite churches. All sermons are down linked from the main campus to the satellites. There is minimal staff at the satellites.
This way they can grow without building more and bigger buildings. Smaller churches are taken over (who wants to pastor a small church for 30 grand a year?)and turned into satellites. There is no pastor on site.
The small churces are voting for this because they cannot find pastors and do not want to disband. The last church I investigated voted yes with a margin of 12 votes. Sick people were coming in wheelchairs to vote no because you had to be present for your vote to count. The big churches are promising all sorts of things to them.
Another indication of the liason of Steve Gaines and Mac Brunson and their purpose driven agenda and proof that Mac Brunson is purpose driven is this broadcast from southwest radio church with the interview of this lady, Betty Erwin. Mrs. Erwin is a resistor, another victim, of the church growth movement, more explicit the purpose driven movement...which is indicative of the problem at Bellevue. Please listen to what this lovely lady has to offer you.
First go to the provided site I have linked you to...swrc.com. To your left you will find a column; click on "Broadcasts", fifth row. Next, to the right please click on "2005 Broadcasts". Next, you will see the "Daily Broadcast for 2005-Listed by Month" - click on March. Go to March 1 - you will see Betty Erwin's name. Listen. Listen closely. Mac Brunson was her pastor. More of the same.
HearBettyErwin
I am totally shaken by the attitudes of our pastors today!
Sorry that didn't work. Try this:
Hear-BettyErwin
Then go:
-Broadcast (left column)
-2005 Broadcasts (right side)
-March 1 (Betty Erwin)
EZ said
Piglet, Yes! Subtle! Yes! The end and the Anti Christ will not require lines of warriors forcing people to get numbers...they will be willingly standing in line to partake of the deception. Do you have your copy of PDL handy?
Piglet says:
I'm sure my copy is around here somewhere. Is there something you want me to look at?
(offline til later)
You can find out what SG is about by looking at his Holy Land commision schedule on Sav Bell site. He now says he never intended to take the money but to give all those free trips away. Of course that was never disclosed on the front end to those paying around 800 dollars more per ticket than the trip cost.I know for a fact that he fleeced the flock in Gardendale on those trips because he told me that the commisions were and I quote "MY money and it is none of anyones business" That was told to me when I called him as a friend to suggest that he should be up front and disclose everything on the front end that he was making,especially since the amounts were so large and the money was not going to a non profit or the church.I might add that my calm suggestion was met with severe anger and threats. Folks this guys problem is his love of money.Bellevue is to share some blame for allowing this Bull into the china shop.I really think he will ride this out,even as bellevue breaks up.He is NOT going to resign and leave the monster check he is getting. He could not earn 100,000 anywhere else.
Just testing to see if this is also anonymous...
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