Please move down six threads to the "MABTS Emergency Board Meetings" topic to find the contact information for Mr. Gene Howard and let him know of your support for the seminary and Dr. Mike Spradlin.
Also, call the church at 901-347-2000 and MABTS at 901-751-8453 to let them know you support MABTS and Dr. Spradlin. Ask if Bellevue has plans to withdraw any funding from the seminary.
There's a link for a page with instructions for adding a "linkable" link to a comment in the list of links to your right. Please check it out!
Don Boys certainly did his research for this one.
Recap of previous coverage:
The latest from Christian Worldview Network is here.
This blogger, wbishop1213, has a couple of interesting entries here. See December 23rd and 26th.
Mondaymorninginsight.com has articles here and here.
The last three Commercial Appeal articles are here. Letters to the editor appeared on the 21st, 22nd, 23rd, and 30th and are available through links on this page.
Channel 3's coverage is here and here.
Channel 5's coverage is here, here, here, here, and here.
FOX Channel 13's coverage is here and has links to other stories and the Wednesday night statement in the sidebar.
Channel 24 made this brief mention of the story.
The Baptist Blogger wrote a nice article about Mrs. Joyce Rogers here.
EthicsDaily.com has articles here, here, and here.
Several Bellevue threads are going in the baptistlife.com "SBC News and Trends" section.
The December 19th Associated Baptist Press article is here.
The Baptist Press article from December 20th is here.
The December 20th Agape Press article is here.
Bloggers Wade Burleson and Dr. Danny Chisholm have also written about Bellevue.
Another article is here.
Read the latest (December 27th) from the former "formerly brainwashed Bellevuer" aka "never put your faith in men!" A link to his blog, "Bellevue Baptist Church - My True Story" is in the sidebar on this page.
WCRV Radio (AM 640) interviewed Dr. Michael Spradlin, President of MABTS, on Thursday. The 30-minute interview can also be accessed here.
Bellevue's website now has the 12-17 and 12-19 statements by Steve Gaines and the video from the 12-20 Wednesday night service here and a description of the Christmas Eve morning and evening services here.
434 comments:
1 – 200 of 434 Newer› Newest»Bepatient - I will commit to pray at Noon daily also.
REPOST:
Tomorrow (well today if you want to get technical) is Jan. 2nd. Why don't we all start off the new year right?
I say we pick a time- how about 12 noon- and commit to making our best efforts to stop whatever we are doing and pray for our church and each other? I know it is not always possible to get it right on the dot, but as close as possible. Even if it is just a quick one sentence prayer.
Please let me know who would be interested and if you think noon is a good time.
Happy New Year!
4545 said...
"Are those on this blog part of a prayer group? When do you meet and pray? Are you praying for our pastor, church, etc etc?
There are several different prayer groups that are praying for our church, our pastor, and those that are hurting for any reason. They have been going on for months.
Why are the ones on this blog not spending the same time praying?
Why are you not in groups praying instead of spending you spare time spreading and feeding the stuff on this blog??"
11:11 PM, January 01, 2007
__________
4545-
How dare you suggest that you have any knowledge of how much time anyone, other than yourself, spends in prayer? Do you mean to imply that, because the people of this blog are not praying together in a sanctioned “prayer group” that their prayers are not heard? God hears me whenever and wherever I cry out to Him. And he assures me that wherever two or more are gathered together, (say for instance my family in my home,) there He is in our very midst. He meets me right where I am! I don’t have to go to a group or prayer center. I don’t need to be surrounded by a group of Bloggers in order for me to pray for them or my church. I am in no way ashamed to pray or talk about prayer, but neither will I make a spectacle of it.
I commend you for taking the initiative to involve yourself these past months in prayer groups, but be careful not to condemn those who are not part of your (or any other) circle!
Matt. 6:1 “Be careful not to do your acts of righteousness before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in Heaven.
(6:5) And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men….
(v.6) But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
(v. 7) And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.
(v.8) Do not be like them, because your Father knows what you need before you ask him. (NIV)
bepatient,
I will commit to pray at noon, as well. I'm getting ready to dive into today's serving of the Word, then I'll be praying about 5 a.m., but noon is a great time to step into the prayer closet (i.e., the restroom at work) and join my heart with others in prayer for our church. It's a date!
Here's another thought: Years ago, a preacher asked for a show of hands from those who faithfully read the newspaper first thing every morning. Of course, hands went up everywhere, including mine (my dad was a 43-year man with the Commercial Appeal, so it's a fostered discipline going back to when I first learned to read). Then the preacher said, how many of you plunge into that newspaper before you have your quiet time every morning? (The issue was not whether we do our quiet time in the morning, or at night, and which one is preferable -- we all know, I'm sure, that it's a personal thing.) This time, nearly as many hands went up sheepishly, because we knew where he was getting ready to go -- and he did:
Why read the bad news before you read the Good News?
As I reached for my Bible just now to begin my quiet time, I was stung anew by the conviction of the Holy Spirit -- and I must confess that I have sat here and "caught up" on all the blog posts before even praying or reading God's Word. With His help, I won't do that again.
And we wonder so many times, do we not, why we have such trouble hearing His voice among the many others we allow to influence us before "inclining our ear toward Him."
This may just be my own personal "aha!" moment, and if it is, that's okay. But I really felt led to sign back on and share this for someone this morning.
Blessings, everyone. May January 2, 2007, be a good and God-honoring day for all of us.
What a great day to commit to read the Bible thru in a month, quarter or year.
I just read the article for which NBBCOF has a link on the front page, entitled, Bellevue Crisis Deepens, in the Christian Worldview Network.com
In it, the author tells of a Baptist pastor who was arrested in the library for lewd conduct.
But it goes on to state that the pastor is STILL behind the pulpit, after convincing his sheep that he was the victim of a satanic plot to disrupt the church's building program.
Folks, we have a problem, not just at Bellevue, but with God's people in general.
I'll be on my knees praying at noon.
GBC Member,
I am up to the challenge and I'm on my second day.
4545,
I have not stopped praying for BBC. I don't have a particular time, just when God brings it to my heart, which is often. My prayer now is for those in harms way. The ones left with a good reputation that will soon be used up as well.
BBC My Story,
Great article. So much truth.
Thanks!
I'll be praying at noon as well.
4545,
I'm glad to know you're praying..and it's good to remind people to pray..but be careful about wielding your own prayer as a weapon against others...you don't know the hearts or prayer lives of anyone but yourself...if you do it to be seen of men...you already have your reward.
be-still-and-know...
Thanks for inserting the verses in your reply to 4545. I was just about to get my Bible to post the same verses.
It is wonderful to pray w/ other Christians, but not necessary. I'm so grateful that God will hear me when I'm driving, when I'm doing dishes, when I'm doing laundry, when I'm working at my office, when I'm in my bed waking up in the middle of the night and feeling the prompting to call out to God for His mercy and grace in this horrible situation.
Thank you Lord!
4545...WE ARE PRAYING!!! Daily, hourly, sometimes together, sometimes w/ our spouses, sometimes by ourselves--believe me...this situation is being bathed in prayer!
I'm still praying and my friends who love Bellevue and stand for truth and integrity at Bellevue are praying. It's wrong for anyone who supports inapropriate behavior at Bellevue to start accusing folks standing for truth and integrity of not being spiritual. I've seen a lot of arrogance in the pulpit from Steve Gains and from people who support his ways.
The following may help you reconsider the humble part. People can choose to stick their head in the sand if they wish but don't bash anyone who sees the truth of what is going on. How can you call a pastor who calls his sheep "Hezbollah" humble. How can you call a pastor who upcharges people going on his trips so he can put the cash in his back pocket humble? How can you call a pastor that goes to another church and trashes his own congregation humble? We could go on all night long but the following may help you understand.
swtt said...
New Year's Resolutions for our Beloved Bellevue Baptist Church.
* Take the Word that we preach weekly and practice what the Word says.
* Start holding ministers on staff to the Biblical standards called for.
* Stop calling a homosexual/pedophilia act a "moral failure". Call it an abomination to the Lord.
* Start applying Matthew 18 inside the church, including Steve Gaines and the rest of the ministers.
* Stop allowing the pastor and other ministers to be above reproach.
* Seek God to call a Servant Leader to replace Steve Gaines.
* Ask the Lord to forgive us as a church for winking at the sin that has occurred from our leadership this past year.
* Forgive us for giving standing ovations to a pastor that has shamed our Lord, Bellevue, and his family.
* Stop allowing power to be in the hands of a few men who act unbiblical in church business.
* Ask God to give our leadership discernment on right vs. wrong.
* Demand accountability from the pastor.
* Demand accountability from our church lay leaders.
* All of us to test everything that is done and said with the Word.
* Create in environment where the congregation can ask legitimate questions.
* Have quarterly business meetings where the membership can be a part of what's going on and have the freedom to be informed.
* Have a pastor that doesn't look at the tithing records of deacons, teachers, choir members, and staff.
* Rely on God to touch the hearts of men/women to give out of love and not fear.
* Collect all church credit cards and let anyone who has to spend money submit an expense report to the church.
* Put the proper controls in place for spending money.
* Review the amount spent by Bellevue staff each month on eating out at local restaurants.
* Start using our eating facilities (like they were originally intended to be used) for lunch.
* Stop allowing the pastor to have personal expenses direct billed to the church.
* No longer allow the pastor to have any more birthday parties for his wife direct billed to the church.
* No longer allow the church to pay for cheerleading travel/expenses any longer.
* Never give any future donations out unless they have been prayed over and thought out.
* No longer be involved thru the pastor’s office of overcharging parishioners for tour trips led by the pastor.
* Create a separation of fiduciary commingling of staff time and Bellevue resources for personal gain of the pastor and his wife.
* Start publishing the compensation packages of the staff like 99% of the Southern Baptist churches across America do already.
* Revise our compensation package for any minister that is receiving unreasonable pay.
* Revise our bylaws so there is written guidance for our church to operate under.
* Start operating under bylaws like the Southern Baptist Convention does.
* Put restrictions on the same set of men/families filling the finance committee and other committees with a great deal of control.
* Once again place an emphasis on Wednesday Night Prayer Meeting.
* Stop allowing influential leaders to do business with the church unless there is full disclosure.
* Publish all business dealings with anyone who is a member of Bellevue.
* Allow the congregation greater knowledge of the budget and where all of the money goes that is spent at Bellevue.
* Stop hording $30,000,000 in the bank and start spending on ministries.
* Let the membership have total knowledge of how we are spending this $30,000,000.
* Stop allowing "pet" projects costing $100,000's to be spent without the knowledge of the church.
* Stop hiring "business" men to be ministers without formal training in seminary.
* Stop having leadership positions be determined by "social status".
* Allow Godly members of Bellevue who have been passed over in the past to fill leadership positions.
* Stop requiring staff members to sign a legal document prohibiting them from talking about the inner workings of Bellevue.
* Stop intimidating staff member and former staff members.
* Stop intimidating members.
* The pastor should not be able to take along men to intimidate any member.
* Trespassing into member’s neighborhoods or onto property will not be tolerated by Bellevue.
* Stop using the pulpit to preach self serving messages that misuse the scriptures.
* Never allow a pastor to be called again without the congregation knowing who he is before the day of decision.
* Full blown background checks will be done on any future ministers that are hired.
* Future pastors must want to preach on any Wednesday night possible.
* Hire pastors that don't call their parishioners "Hezbollah".
* Reject Warrenism or any part of Warrenism that has crept into our church.
* Pray that all members who profess to be Believers humble themselves before our Lord.
* Each of us search our hearts to do what God wants us to do.
* Each of us search our hearts to go where God wants us to go.
* Each of us search our hearts to be the person God wants us to be.
* Pray that we can once again fellowship with each other in love.
* Pray that Bellevue once again would be able worship in Spirit and in Truth.
* Pray that we all have the spirit of forgiveness, love, patience, and long suffering.
Bepatient,
I'll be praying with you at noon.
Happy New Year to you too!
I will be honored to pray at noon everyday!! I have been in Bellevue's Prayer Ministry for many years.My heart is broken over the too numerious transgressions within our church and Christ's Church as a whole. ... not only by the man in charge of the prayer ministry (God please hear our cries)
but by our admin., as well as our leader( I cannot call him my pastor) and now our own brothers and sisters in Christ!!!
PLEASE READ THE BOOK OF JUDE
Our family has been in prayer for our church for many years. We have been on our face since Nov. 2005...and there we will stay!!
One of my favorite verses to pray is from John 20:21-22...I will continue to pray for our Lord to breathe on us all...
fedupatbbc said, "I just read the article for which NBBCOF has a link on the front page, entitled, Bellevue Crisis Deepens, in the Christian Worldview Network.com
In it, the author tells of a Baptist pastor who was arrested in the library for lewd conduct.
But it goes on to state that the pastor is STILL behind the pulpit, after convincing his sheep that he was the victim of a satanic plot to disrupt the church's building program.
Folks, we have a problem, not just at Bellevue, but with God's people in general."
You got that right! First let me say that the author is Ingrid Scheulter and that she has the discernment ministry, www.sliceoflaodicea.com. (I can't seem to make the link active...please take the time to read her website. It will open your eyes to what is going on in the world with our churches. She is such a discerner.)
The point I am wanting to make here is that what I am seeing is the lack of concern for the church and it's sheep by the leadership. Talk about the phrase, "It's not about me!" Well, that needs to be changed to "It's all about me!" with the leadership! There is no leadership in the staff at all that comes close to resembling Christlike behavior. None. Number one...when Paul Williams was caught up with, he should have resigned immediately. He is adding injury upon injury by insisting on remaining on staff at Bellevue. The first thing he should have done was to have stepped down. So...whose best interest does he have at heart? We could follow that one all the way back...but I'll just look at where it surfaced right now. And Steve Gaines? Well...he should have resigned long time ago. So...who is he thinking about?
This thing is so out of hand...I know that healing can take place, but I don't think Bellevue will ever be the same again. The scars will be there for a long time.
What a horrible way to start off the new year. Prayer, prayer, prayer...
BR said- Why do you want to know when we meet, so you can butt in and interrupt our prayers as well as our thoughts?
If you were such a prayer warrior, why are you messing around here after your head honcho told you not too?
Sounds like you are the one that needs to get into a prayer group. Perhaps you can find one at another church, there don't seem to be any at BBC nowadays, unless you consider the CEO meetings to contemplate the next strategy to cover yet another "mistake of the mind"???? If you were praying, do you think you would be making so many of those "mistakes"?
REPLY: PLEASE spare me. Butt in? No, I am not like some on here that seem to be looking for trouble. There have been many of us on our faces praying in groups for months for our church, pastor, and for EVERYONE involved.
The rest of your post does not deserve a response.
I just started a new devotional book by Beth Moore - I can't remember the whole name, but it's a one story a day from a missionary so I'm excited about my new devotion plan. Any one get this book for Christmas?
Karen
on the bright side...........
lets pray Bellevue will never be the same and we are in the best company because Jesus' scars are eternal!!
PLEASE PRAY FOR ALL OUR CHILDREN!!
they are the innocent victims in all of this.Pray for their scars.. The outrageous things said from the pulpit, the subjects they have been introduced to, then on to families and friends splitting up just to name a few. The dangers of walking in the halls of Bellevue is just beginning to come out...Lets pray all this will not turn them away from their only source of life, Jesus the Christ
Yes, lets pray Bellevue will never be the same....but more like the Bride Jesus will come for!
I never said it was necessary to pray in groups. As usual, some of you love to spin things around and shed false light. I said there was something special about it and there is. I would have thought that most of you would have been in groups praying and seeking God's face instead of what you are doing on this blog. I have read several posts that actually sound like this prayer group idea was new to some of you. I hope not and I pray that all of you stop what you are doing and pray.
swtt- Not even sure where to start. Did you hear the AWESOME Sermon Sunday morning on Brokenness??
4545,
The problem with SG's sermons is that they now ring hollow, in light of his ACTIONS.
Narcisstic people are seldom " broken"
4545 said:
I hope not and I pray that all of you stop what you are doing and pray
**
And yet, here you are, on here, with us.
Oh, man!
I called Deborah Housel's office today to ask why Paul Williams was still in a position to sit in judgement of who was or was not qualified to work with children, even during the 6 months after SG knew about his perversion.
Guess what i was told?
I was told that I could discuss it with Mark Doughtery.
There is no recourse.
The fox is guarding the hen house.
I have been on here a very short time and spend very very very little time here. Very little.
Karen, you said, "I just started a new devotional book by Beth Moore..."
This sounds like a great theme for a book, but I thought you should know that Beth Moore is leaning toward comtemplative prayer. Just go to sliceoflaodicea.com or lighthouseresearch.com for more information. This information is just indicative of the way things are going. It is sad.
Mark 13:33-34
33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
Pray & Work & Watch.
Matthew 24:45-46
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Faithful & Wise Servant
Luke 12:56-57
56 Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?
57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?
Discern & Judge
Tim...great scriptures to share with us! I needed these in particular this morning.
Maybe we need to start having "internet church" too. You know "home church" has become a big thing for those who cannot find a purpose driven free church aka church growth movement free church. Wheat from tarres.
3 Do not let kindness and truth leave you;
Bind them around your neck,
Write them on the tablet of your heart.
4 So you will find favor and good repute
In the sight of God and man.
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
And do not lean on your own understanding.
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He will make your paths straight.
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
Fear the LORD and turn away from evil.
Proverbs 3:3-7
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
I'll be praying at 12 as well. Second day into the Word of God. And it was the First thing we did this morning. What a way to start the day!
4545,
I think maybe some people reacted the way they did to your post after asking if we were in prayer groups. At least to me it was pretty condescending "No prayer groups?". How else are we to interpret that other than to mean we're at fault for not being in a prayer group. Anyway that's probably why people reacted that way.
James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Please pray at noon for wisdom, both of yourself and those lacking (namely Tim). Also, remember to ask for direction, especially for me.
The phrase "ubraideth not" caught my attention this morning. It means that God will not keep our past wickedness or our present unworthiness from granting us wisdom when we ask for his wisdom. If that doesn't light your fire then your wood is wet.
AMEN Tim!!!
tim,
God has shown that He can light wet wood, too...! (1 Kings 18:18-38)
Let us pray 2 Chron 7:14: That we humble oursleves, pray, seek His face and repent that He might heal each of us and His church called Bellevue.
I'll be praying at 12:00. Thank you to all for your encuragement.
TS
4545 wrote:
"I would have thought that most of you would have been in groups praying and seeking God's face instead of what you are doing on this blog. I have read several posts that actually sound like this prayer group idea was new to some of you. I hope not and I pray that all of you stop what you are doing and pray."
Questions:
1. Why are the two mutually exclusive? That's like saying, "Why are you going to the grocery store, reading a book, watching a movie, sitting in your car in a traffic jam, eating, sleeping, breathing, or __________ (insert activity of your choice) instead of participating in a prayer group?" It does seem MJM has managed to combine a noon prayer time with another uh... "necessary" activity, but for those of us with one-track minds, please cut us some slack. It was a loaded question, and you know it.
2. How do you know everyone here isn't in a prayer group of some sort? Just because we aren't in yours... or haven't broadcast the fact here... doesn't mean none of us are.
3. Why, then, are you here if this activity is so eeeeevillll?
NASS
When I logged in today I realized I misspelled Habbakuk last week when I created my account. I'm imperfect. The God I serve is perfect.
Here is something for you Baptist truth warriors to think about from Slice of Laodicea. This comment did not pertain to your plight yet I find it most applicable.
Pastor Ken wrote: "We'd best ask the Lord to prepare us for the persecution we will experience at the very hands of these same supposed "followers of Jesus."
As the Catholic church attacked its own during the first Reformation, the post-modern church will attack those of the new, second Reformation. There is nothing like "truth" that will get you into more dangerous trouble. There are many historical examples to show that proclaiming truth can be dangerous to you health: Jesus, Stephen, the martyred apostles, including Paul, the Waldensians (http://www.answers.com/topic/waldensians), the Reformationists, and those today in Third World countries suffering for Christ. There are just too many to number or attempt to remember. But they stand in watch over the present body of Christ to see how we will stand for the truth. Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Our "race" is to carry the truth of the gospel to evangelize and make disciples from the nations.
The evil spirit of persecution has slithered up from the deep pit onto the shores of America. Since 1962 we have seen it grow more bold and hostile. It will increase until there is open hostility towards all true believers. We will know who are true believers then. The apostates will separate from us by the droves when persecution comes their way. I don't know about you, but I am ready for judgment to begin with the house of God. I am tired of trying to worship and fellowship with the lost. 2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? As commanded, we have left the tares with the wheat so as not to uproot tender and immature wheat. The Lord uses persecution to do the winnowing for us.
I agree with the late J. Vernon McGee when he said that he believed the church could be as much as 85-90% heathen. He may have been too generous in that figure. I hope not. We will know one day. But with the easy believism that has permeated our churches since Charles Finney's unbiblical influence in the 1800s the church has been overrunning with the lost. I honestly believe the true church will be forced into meeting in homes. We will again be back where we started after Pentecost. My love for the "organized church" that I find in America has just about died. I eagerly await for the meeting of nothing but true believers. I hope that I am not too old to see that day. Maranatha
Posted by: Pastor Ray at December 27, 2006 03:39 PM
4545,
I answered your accusations a few threads back. To my knowledge, you never responded to the question I posed then. If you want to continue discussing this, answer my question. For your convenience I've restated it below.
Best,
Josh
What action on Dr Gaines part would cause you to withdraw your support? Said another way: Is there a line that he could not cross in your eyes?
Guys, certainly we should be praying. But does the fact that any might not have prayed "enough" lessen or excuse the transgressions of the administration? Of course not! Watch out for moral equivalence arguments, eg "How can you say that what the administration did was wrong when you haven't even prayed enough today?" Wrong is wrong folks, no matter what anybody else has done. Put it down big, plain, and straight.
A common line these days seems to be, "Well, Pastor Steve made a mistake in not bringing Paul Williams and his sins before the church sooner, but we all make mistakes and we should forgive Pastor Steve and Paul."
That is absolutely correct. We should forgive them both. In II Corinthians Paul had the church at Corinth restore the fornicator who had been dealt with in I Corinthians. It was obvious that the man had repented.
BUT, forgiveness doesn't free us from the consequences of our sins. It frees us from the penalties, but not the repercussions.
For Paul Williams, this should mean that he is loved, encouraged, uplifted in prayer, and never, ever put in a position to molest another person. He will probably never be trusted again, but he will be forgiven. This is not wrong in any way.
For Dr Gaines, it means that if he repents of his crime and sin against the church, he should be forgiven. But it does not mean that the church should pretend as if this never happened and might never happen again.
God certainly doesn't treat us this way. Instead of just forgiving us our sins and acting like they never happened, He forgives us, grants us the Holy Spirit to help push us away from further sin, and allows our sins' consequences to impact us so that we learn. While we never pay the price for our sins, we do reap what we sow.
Such is the case for Dr Gaines. I certainly forgive him, but I also believe he must suffer the consequences of his sin. One of those consequences is mistrust and a refusal of many to allow their children to be anywhere near a nursery that he has control over. Another is that many believe he is unfit to pastor. I agree. But I am not exacting a penalty for sin. I’m simply following out the logic his last sin left us with. He is forgiven, but the consequences of that sin may stalk him for a very long time.
To say that "We should all just forgive Dr Gaines" is a straw man argument which tries to equate forgiveness with the annihilation of consequences.
Don’t fall for it.
Hello Friends,
I want to echo what Tim said about Beth Moore. I know it seems that sometimes we have something to say about everyone in ministry but there is a serious concern and a strong wave of subtle false teaching making its way into most areas of Christian life right now. Including many we have trusted for years. Here is a tip: If they become real popular, it may not be full teaching. As the full gospel offends most. That is not a hard rule but one I generally use as a Berean to check things out.
Let me explain: Up until about 2 years ago, I read quite a few 'Christian' books. Beth Moore, John Eldridge, Dobson, and the list goes on and on.
Something happened at my former mega to wake me up. I left all those books on the shelf and just started studying the Bible. I used a commentary now and then but mostly prayed. I have been astonished at what I thought was true but was not. Now, I cannot read Beth Moore at all because I see right through it. Nor any of the others. About the only things I will read are from old dead guys like Spurgeon, Leonard Ravenhill, Tozer, Chambers, etc. (I check those against scripture, too)
I did not even give my books away or sell them. I threw them away. That is how seriously I am taking this subtle but false teaching.
I sincerely believe God is sending a delusion to our churches...a blinding of sorts. He is showing who belongs to Christ. It is not the people we may think it is. We have become so worldly (I was) that it is hard to make this distinction: That those who are first will be last. (I know how arrogant that sounds but bear with me because I beg daily to be His and am going through sanctification)
The problems in your church are multi layered and are a direct effect of allowing worldliness in as in my former mega. AS I have gone back and read many of the things your pastor did upon coming in, I got the feeling in my gut that he was of the CGM and perhaps even PDL movements. The goal of both of these strategies of church growth are 'results' and 'relationships' at all costs. Truth is always a casualty in these movements. That means if you disagree, you must be neutralized and must go. That does not mean he does not preach a Biblical sermon. But watch, does he ever exposit scripture taking a chapter at a time deeply going through the Word? Do his actions match the Word of God? (Orthodoxy and Orthopraxy)
I could go on and one about this movement because I lived it once very intimately for a long time and even helped to promote it in a very large venue. I am very ashamed of that now.
This thinking of GCM is infecting churches all over the US right now. We are into 'churchianity' instead of Christianity. We are following ungodly leaders. We will give an account for that.(I know it is harsh but time is short)
So please, I beg you, save your money. Stop buying 'Christian' books when you own the only one you will ever need.
Also, if you want to learn more about what is infecting the modern or postmodern church (as they call it) http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/
is a great resource. It really helped me as a refugee of GCM. I just found it one day and the Lord impressed upon me: You are not alone.There is a remnant out there.
New BBC Open Forum said...
4545 wrote:
"I would have thought that most of you would have been in groups praying and seeking God's face instead of what you are doing on this blog. I have read several posts that actually sound like this prayer group idea was new to some of you. I hope not and I pray that all of you stop what you are doing and pray."
Questions:
1. Why are the two mutually exclusive? That's like saying, "Why are you going to the grocery store, reading a book, watching a movie, sitting in your car in a traffic jam, eating, sleeping, breathing, or __________ (insert activity of your choice) instead of participating in a prayer group?" It does seem MJM has managed to combine a noon prayer time with another uh... "necessary" activity, but for those of us with one-track minds, please cut us some slack. It was a loaded question, and you know it.
Actually, the two activities can be mutually exclusive, and that's not a stretch. Not that they necessarily are, but that they can be.
The original question was directed to those who have, by their profligate posting, shown that they invest a significant amount of time here--was it not?
2. How do you know everyone here isn't in a prayer group of some sort? Just because we aren't in yours... or haven't broadcast the fact here... doesn't mean none of us are.
Most of the regulars are free with their opinions. And with volunteering many aspects of their lives, apart from (in numerous cases) their identities. One might conclude that such people would've already volunteered the fact that they're involved in a prayer ministry or prayer group, if indeed they were.
Again, it's not a stretch to think, with the hectic schedules most folks keep these days, that spending large blocks of time here would preclude spending large blocks of time in prayer.
3. Why, then, are you here if this activity is so eeeeevillll?
NASS
11:31 AM, January 02, 2007
Two things:
1) I don't see where "this activity" was categorized as evil.
2) I own the copyright for the elongated spelling of "evil," so you owe me five cents. :)
--Mike
I did not consider what you posted a response. You have given out false info and shed false light on the "pledge" and other things. You have done so on the radio and on TV and on this blog. You need to go back on radio and TV and on this blog and try and fix things and either give the truth or say you you do not know.
What sins has Dr. Gaines committed that you can share? I know he is a sinner and sins every day, but you know what I mean. I regards to the issues at hand. Of course there is a line anyone could cross that would cause me to not support them. I worship God, not men. There is nothing that has been proven as fact that would cause me to withdraw my support for Dr. Gaines. Actually, I am more convinced he is God's man today than ever before. I pray about it many times a day. If God ever tells me different, gives me that check in my spirit, about this or anything else, I will follow whatever He says. A great verse was posted earlier.
Proverbs 3:5-7 says:
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight.
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the LORD and shun evil.
Great post Mike
MB wrote:
"I own the copyright for the elongated spelling of "evil," so you owe me five cents. :)"
Actually, I bet Rush was saying it before you were, so I'm sure he got a copyright on it first!
As for the rest of what you said you profess to know... you don't, nor does 4545. For example, I can play the accordion and participate in a host of other activities I've never shared on this forum. It was a loaded question intended to make the people posting here look bad, and it didn't work. Sorry.
I have sensed a softening in your tone of late. Do I detect that you've perhaps come to the conclusion that some of the things we've discussed here in the past few months aren't so far-fetched after all?
NASS
Thankfully, 4545, I don't live my life by what you do, or do not, consider to be a response. Not one thing I said was untrue. You've presented no proof that what I said was untrue. You refuse to even address the fact that what I said on the radio was opinion that by definition can't be false. This is like talking to a recording that simply repeats "that's false light."
Words mean things, but they rarely make things. Simply saying something is false doesn't make it false. As John Adams said, "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state facts and evidence."
Everything I said on the radio was true. Everything I said on television was true--Dr Gaines resignation ahs been called for before for lawbreaking, intimmidating clergy and members, financial imporprieites, and lying; and now we can add harboring a child molester to that list. That is absolutely true. I restate it here to satisfy your query and to repeat the thing you call false. Ask Mark Sharpe why he called for SG to resign. Ask Michael Reagan why he called for SG to resign.
The only thing you cite as error is my contention that Dr Gaines had some part in having that pledge submitted to the deacons. I base that on Chuck Taylor's own words. The conclusion I draw may be wrong, but I cannot be wrong when I state what my opinion is. It is impossible. Am I the only one who understands this? Your telling me that I'm wrong about my opinion would be like me saying, "4545, what's your favorite color?"
"Blue."
"Wrong, it's red. You lied."
Don't you see. That makes no sense at all.
I don’t contend that you worship or follow men. I would ask what it would take specifically for you to withdraw your support from Dr Gaines.
The verses you quote are excellent reminders to us all. Thank you for them.
Best,
Josh
Mike wrote: Again, it's not a stretch to think, with the hectic schedules most folks keep these days, that spending large blocks of time here would preclude spending large blocks of time in prayer."
Wow, that did not take long. Now you are heathens who are NOT in prayer because you are here. Another very sad tactic and a strawman.
Mike, do you EVER watch TV? Listen to the Radio? Well, I don't. EVER. The only reason I knew who the Desparate Housewives were is because my staff at my former church talked about it all the time. (real deep people)
I never go to ballgames, watch ballgames. I read, take walks and blog for my leisure activities. My reading is limited to Biblical commentary and scriptures.
I also make use of 'prayer driving'. Ever done that? You can't close your eyes. :0). I am alone and it is a perfect time. No one knows i am praying.
What does this make me? Nothing. No one. Just a sinner who is fervently trying to keep the world out of my heart.
People have been quick to come on this site and accuse people here of judging the pastor and leaders. Oh, we can judge.... we just better use the same measure on ourselves because that is how the Lord will judge us...by the same measure we judge others.
libertyinChrist,
How can you Biblically justify a lawsuit? It can't be done.
Unfortunately, most GCM pastors know this and it makes them bolder in their abuse of authority. See, if anyone files a lawsuit, they can point to them and say, "Not Biblical!" and they would be right no matter how depraved THEY are! But that is ok with them, because they have the power and the purse strings.
Where did you hear FOF is coming in to help? If that is true, heaven help you. I agree about them. The last thing we need are Christian Psychologist or Psychiatrist. We have the Word, the Holy Spirit and that is enough!
Habbukuk...
Praise God for your post coming from Pastor Ray out of Slice of Laodicea. It brought tears to my eyes. Anybody who misses reading Slice of Laodicea daily is really missing something. Ingrid keeps the discerners up on what is going on around us...and it is so important that we know. Some of the responses are breathtaking...as is this one. I check her webiste out daily.
This post does concern Bellevue in my opinion. There have been those among you who have already been persecuted. And who have stood strong for Jesus Christ. After we had to leave our church, we formed a home church until we found a real one...and I have to tell you it was beautiful. I would not hesitate to do it again...and probably will have to eventually. If the rapture doesn't come first. Come Lord Jesus!
Thanks again for this post.
Lindon,
From someone who has traveled similar roads and recently made a similar discovery, I believe you're right on the money.
And by "right on the money", I mean precisely that. Modern Christianity has become far less about taking up your cross and following Christ — it's now far more about Christian "business": full-scale marketing, churches being run by CEO-type personalities with agendas and corporate methodologies, best-selling novel series, etc etc ad nauseum.
The more I look around, the more I realize how doctrinally deficient the contemporary American church really is. Just look at what's happening at Bellevue for a startling example. We've substituted our own ways and means for those of Scripture, and we've found increasingly clever ways to rationalize it.
I've had to re-evaluate virtually everything I thought I knew, and with much prayer — not to mention fear and trembling — I've begun rebuilding my own spiritual foundation.
I sense others here are experiencing the same, and for that I am truly thankful.
The Remnant... narrow is the way... these concepts have taken on far greater meaning for me of late. And lest anyone think I speak with an air of arrogance, I assure you that, quite the contrary, it induces a deep feeling of humility and thankfulness.
Lindon said..."I want to echo what Tim said about Beth Moore. I know it seems that sometimes we have something to say about everyone in ministry but there is a serious concern and a strong wave of subtle false teaching making its way into most areas of Christian life right now. Including many we have trusted for years."
Well, first of all it wasn't Tim...it was me who brought this up. And I must tell you, I am happy to see somebody who understands this and agrees. You have responded to this most eloquently and I want you to know here is one who understands and appreciates your post.
I must tell you that I am one who is a victim of PD and to the point I wasn't actually bodily removed from my church, but things were made so difficult that I couldn't have possibly stayed. It wasn't possible. There were some others with me too. Thus my blog name...haha.
Glad to hear you say that your gut feeling is that Bellevue is being taken PD...that is mine as well. There is really no doubt in my mind this is it. All these other problems have surfaced as a result of it. That is what they do...you know that.
I pray for Bellevue all the time. The thing is...it isn't just about the church I had belonged to, it isn't just about Bellevue, it isn't just about Germantown Baptist...this is about our precious Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
You know Lindon...if you have read the back of the book, you know what this is all about don't you? :)
Again...thanks for that tremendous response.
You know, I'm not entirely sure I agree about the whole lawsuit issue, Lindon. Don't get me wrong, I don't think we're to sue brothers and sisters for slights against ourselves. The Corinthians passage does seem to forbid that. But, to my knowledge, it doesn't forbid us from taking an organization to court. Also, other Scirpture forbids us from protecting our brothers and sisters when they break the law.
To take a slightly different tack, is it right for us to allow a Christian organiztaion to break the law when it is within our power to bring it to the courts' attention? Should we ignore those breaking the law simply because our names as Christians would have to be filed as concerened parties?
It's not difficult to imagine a situation in which one might file suit not to gain something materially, but to hold BBC accountable for breaking its own rules.
In such a case, would the dispute not be between the church and the law, with he member filing suit only acting as a party concerned with the keeping of the law (not self-benefit)?
If we take the Corinthians passage to mean that Christians cannot take other Christians to court, do we apply that to criminal cases as well? Do we only apply it to civil cases? How can we tell which cases should fall under the Corinthians passage and which shouldn't?
I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I certainly respect you Lindon, I'm just wondering out loud if we've not maybe gotten a little off on the whole "Believers can't take other believers to court."
I'm not saying this is gospel truth, I'm just wondering what others think as I try to form a concrete opinion on this.
Just a reminder, noon is not the only time we should be praying. I just thought it would be nice for all of us to do something together!
custos & lindon,
Matthew 18:15-17
15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church:
(the final word)
but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.
Actually I believe that a lot of CGM & PDL leaders get bolder and say it is "Not Biblical" might be because they don't know their Bible and are depending on the fact that no one else does either.
Day 2: Genesis 4-6
American English translation ("NIV")
King James
Please pray a Great Commission prayer for today's nation of the day: Albania
(offline)
Tim,
. . . Depedning on the fact that no one knows their Bibles either.
Man, you said a mouthful there!
JM
Tim Wrote:
Actually I believe that a lot of CGM & PDL leaders get bolder and say it is "Not Biblical" might be because they don't know their Bible and are depending on the fact that no one else does either.
ch wrote:
The more I look around, the more I realize how doctrinally deficient the contemporary American church really is.
fedupatbbc wrote:
Folks, we have a problem, not just at Bellevue, but with God's people in general.
esther wrote:
This has been the biggest wake up call to me: How few elders, ministers, teachers know scripture.
habbukuk shared (from another blog):
I agree with the late J. Vernon McGee when he said that he believed the church could be as much as 85-90% heathen. He may have been too generous in that figure.
lindon wrote:
This thinking of CGM is infecting churches all over the US right now. We are into 'churchianity' instead of Christianity. We are following ungodly leaders. We will give an account for that.(I know it is harsh but time is short)
Does anybody see a recurring theme here?
lindon wrote:
"How can you Biblically justify a lawsuit?"
I'm not going to voice my opinion on that subject right now, but I can tell you, if there were to turn out to be any more victims of PW (and I pray there aren't), you're going to see lawsuits galore, Biblically justified or not.
NASS
I've not posted much here at this blog, but I'm a long-time member at FBC Jacksonville and am following the events at Bellevue with great interest since we too have a new pastor replacing a much beloved retiring pastor (Mac Brunson replacing Jerry Vines). While we haven't had anything close to the PW shenanigans, in my judgement Mac Brunson displays some of the arrogance of Steve Gaines in his decision making that might cause problems down the road (I could go on in detail but that is for another blog I suppose). But I see that Steve Gaines is on the list as a speaker for the Pastor's Conference in February 2007 at Jacksonville FBC...I sure hope that our pastor, Mac Brunson, decides to cancel SGs engagement there based on the PW scandal. Don't you think this would be a wise move by Mac Brunson to distance himself and FBC Jax from Steve Gaines?
faithnhope,
The recurring theme is that the Bible has been abandoned for the teaching of men. This is not a surprise Jesus warned us that it would happen this way. The authority of church is based on Scripture, for the church to deny the Scripture on which it is build creates a house divided against itself. It cannot stand.
If we are truly Biblically based then why has Matthew 18 not been fulfilled. Why does our deacon body not function as prescribed in Scripture? Where are Scriptures that even suggest that the church is to seek to bring the lost to them, instead of the church going to them?
What is faith if it is not based in Christ and that thru the Word of God?
What is hope if it is not based on Christ and that thru the Word of God?
John 1:1 In the beggining was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
More info on the Steve Gaines "gig" in Jacksonville: he currently holds one of the top speaking slots, speaking on Monday night 2/5 just before Johnny Hunt.
http://www.jaxpastorsconference.com/schedule/
Let's hope that FBC Jacksonville and Mac Brunson will have the backbone to make a statement that they won't grant a pastor who allowed a known pedophile on staff for 6 months have one of the top speaking slots right before Johnny Hunt, and in the same event as Junior Hill, David Allen, Jerry Vines, Jerry Falwell, etc.
If you think it would help, email Mac Brunson at pastor@fbcjax.com to voice your displeasure that he is bringing in SG for a big speaking engagement, that this sends the wrong message to the 1000's of pastors that will be present. I can already see the standing O's that night (oh, I hope not!)
Unbelievable. There is now a nationwide campaign to ruin Gaines.
Why not wait until the investigation, both the legal and the internal, is completed?
It may not be Biblical to sue another Christian,but it also not Biblical to lie, trespass,harbor a child molester spent church money on parties for wife, daughter and $300.00 shoes. So SG supporters if I do decide to contact an attorney to see what legal recourse I have to address in BBC's failure to protect my children from a preadator I'll just be following my Pastors example of parcipitating in on nonBiblial activities.I hope you don't mind if I act like the pastor
Memphis - I'm not out to "ruin" Steve Gaines...I just don't think it appropriate for him to be a KEYNOTE speaker at the premier SBC pastor's conference, given the weight of the allegations. Besides it doesn't make sense to wait for the investigation to be complete, because the investigation won't change the facts already known.
Brother Tim,
I have to tell you that I really like the 'kinder, gentler' you.
Actually, there is a verse about unbelievers coming to church, 1 Cor 14:22-25. The passage is quite clear about what they should find, including the fact that they will be (gasp!) judged. Not exactly seeker friendly, is it?
Did any of you go to kindergarten?
Two wrongs don't make a right.
friendinjax,
Thanks for the heads-up on the conference. Questions to consider:
How much are the speakers being paid? Can you research this and report back?
Did you know that we {Bellevue} paid Junior over $5,000 dollars this year to preach a revival?
Did you know Steve Gaines told some of the Bellevue staff when Junior Hill preached a revival at Gardendale, the church paid Junior Hill over $30,000 dollars.
Ace,
Where will the money that SG is paid for this speaking event in March go? Will it come back to the shurch or to SG and his family??
On the topic of the church's "investigation" into the PW scandle, a gem from the British Comedy "Yes, minister":
Sir Humphrey: "If there had been investigations, which there haven't, or not necessarily, or I'm not at liberty to say whether there have, there would have been a project team which, had it existed, on which I cannot comment, would now have been disbanded, if it had existed, and the members returned to their original departments, if indeed there had been any such members."
Does this sound erily like the CC to anyone else? I do have to wonder if this is how the PW inquery will go since it is supposed to be confidential: "We cannot comment on any part of this confidential investigation, and we do not admit whether or not said investigation is still underway or has been underway or will be underway in the future." =)
Memphis said...
Unbelievable. There is now a nationwide campaign to ruin Gaines.
Why not wait until the investigation, both the legal and the internal, is completed?
2:52 PM, January 02, 2007
Memphis, since SG knew about PW in June can we not assume that he started the investigation six months ago, after all as you state often he is a men of the utmost integrity.Surely he didn't wait until the world found out?
habakkuk,
Finally someone else understands how Finneyism has been the bane of evangelicalism since his day. His heretical theology has bred so many false doctrines. Seeker sensitivity, "new methods", and open theism just to name a few...thanks for sharing the insight...now I don't feel alone :)
This blog is full of so much self, flesh, and hate it is unreal.
Arg, the h-word again.
custos...
kinda how we feel when we see the word kool-aid, huh?
4545 said...
This blog is full of so much self, flesh, and hate it is unreal.
3:18 PM, January 02, 2007
4545
Are you referring to the supporters of SG on this blog or the members of the CC
Just thought this will be good info you all:
Articles: Peacemaking in the Church
A Better Way to Handle Abuse
by Ken Sande, President of Peacemaker Ministries
Sexual abuse in the church does not have to end in broken lives, agonizing lawsuits, and divided congregations. When people follow God's ways and words, these terrible incidents can result in healing, justice, and healthier churches.
When victims of abuse first come forward, I have found that most of them are seeking four reasonable responses. First, they are looking for understanding, compassion, and emotional support. Second, they want the church to admit that the abuse occurred and to acknowledge that it was wrong. Third, they want people to take steps to protect others from similar harm. And fourth, they expect compensation for the expense of needed counseling.
As national headlines reveal, many churches have unwisely ignored these legitimate needs. Instead, like many other institutions, they have blindly followed their lawyers' and insurance adjusters' textbook strategy to avoid legal liability. They try to cover up the offense and deny responsibility. All too often they distance themselves from the victims and their families, leaving them feeling betrayed and abandoned.
Many frustrated victims eventually talk to a lawyer who tells them they could win a million-dollar damages award. Soon everyone is locked in an adversarial process that reopens wounds and generates even more pain and anger. Whatever the verdict, both sides lose, since money alone can never heal the wounds of abuse.
There is a better way.
God is a redeemer and a problem-solver. He has designed a powerful peacemaking strategy for dealing with offenses between people, including sexual abuse. When churches follow it, as I will show later, the cycle of abuse is broken and restoration can begin.
Compassion – If there is one place that victims of abuse should find understanding, compassion, and support, it is among people whom God commands to respond to suffering with tenderness and selfless love: "Be kind and compassionate to one another.... Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit.... Each of you should look not only to your own interests but also to the interests of others" (Eph. 4:31; Phil. 2:3-4). Instead of pulling away from victims, churches should draw closer to them, listening to their stories, mourning with and praying for them, and bearing their burdens. Responding with love and compassion is one of the best ways to show that the church abhors abuse and is committed to serving those who are suffering.
Confession – Attorneys instinctively instruct their clients to "make no admissions." Hundreds of churches have followed this shortsighted counsel in recent years, prolonging the agony of abuse victims, infuriating juries, and triggering multimillion-dollar punitive damages awards. In contrast, everyone benefits when people trust God's promise that "He who conceals his sins does not prosper, but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy" (Prov. 28:13). When abuse has occurred, a church should express sorrow and acknowledge its contribution to the situation. It should also counsel the abuser to confess his sin, take responsibility for his actions, and seek needed counseling. These steps can prevent a court battle and speed healing for victim and offender alike. (Since an impulsive admission could allow an insurer to cancel coverage, church leaders should consult with their insurer, lawyer, and a Christian conciliator to plan their words carefully.)
Compensation for Counseling – The Bible places a strong emphasis on requiring a wrongdoer to repair any damage he has caused to another person. "Pay the injured man for the loss of his time and see that he is completely healed" (Ex. 21:19). Therefore, churches should be earnest to do whatever they can to bring wholeness to victims of abuse. As soon as abuse is revealed, the church should immediately come to the aid of the victim and his family, holding forth the redeeming power of Jesus and offering to provide or pay for needed counseling.
Change – When abuse takes place, statements of regret are not enough. Genuine repentance is demonstrated by making changes to protect others from similar harm. "Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.... Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked" (Luke 3:8; Ps. 82:4). This requires immediately removing the abuser from his position, involving legal authorities as needed or required by law, and implementing screening and supervision procedures to prevent other abusive people from being in counseling or child-care positions. Such actions not only protect others from harm but also relieve abuse victims, who are deeply concerned that others not be treated as they were.
Conciliation – It may be difficult for a church to implement these steps if a victim's family is already threatening legal action or an insurer refuses to support personal contacts. These situations can still be resolved without a legal battle, however, by submitting the matter to biblical mediation or arbitration. "If you have disputes, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church" (1 Cor. 6:4). Christian conciliation by outside neutrals can provide a constructive forum to deal with both the spiritual and legal issues related to abuse. This legally enforceable process provides appropriate confidentiality and promotes confession and restitution, which help to bring about justice and reconciliation.
These five steps are not theoretical. I have seen many churches follow this process, usually with great success. In one case, a pastor discovered that a man had abused several children in the church, including the pastor's daughter. In the midst of his own personal anguish, the pastor prayed to respond to the situation in a way that would reflect the love of Jesus. After consulting with a Christian conciliator and the church's insurer, the pastor and his elders set out to minister to everyone who had been hurt by this dreadful sin.
They persuaded the abuser to confess his sin to the families of the children and to turn himself in to the police. He willingly accepted his prison sentence, and was even grateful that his destructive behavior had finally been stopped.
The leaders spent many hours with the families themselves, grieving and praying with them, and making sure they received needed support and counseling. In addition, the leaders improved their screening and supervision policies to guard against similar incidents in the future.
They also reached out to the abuser's wife and children, who were so ashamed that they planned to leave the church. But the leaders understood what being a shepherd is all about. They ministered to this broken family, reassured them of God's love, and kept them in the fold.
Instead of being dragged through an excruciating lawsuit, the victims and their families, the abuser and his family, and the entire congregation experienced the redeeming power of God. This remarkable process culminated months later during a Christmas Eve service. As the church prepared to sing "Silent Night," two young girls came forward to light the candles. One of them had been abused. The other was the daughter of the abuser. As they finished their task and smiled at each other, the congregation saw tangible evidence of God's love and grace.
Abuse in the church does not have to end with catastrophe. When a church follows its Lord, even this great tragedy can result in healing and restoration.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ken Sande is an attorney, the author of The Peacemaker: A Biblical Guide to Resolving Personal Conflict (Baker Books, 3rd Ed. 2003), Peacemaking for Families (Tyndale, 2002), and president of Peacemaker Ministries (www.Peacemaker.net), an international ministry committed to equipping and assisting Christians and their churches to respond to conflict biblically.
This article in its entirety may be photocopied, re-transmitted by electronic mail, or reproduced in newsletters, on the World Wide Web, or in other print media, provided that such copying, re-transmission, or other use is not for profit or other commercial purpose. Any distribution or use of this article must set forth the following credit line, in full, at the conclusion of the article: "© 2005 Peacemaker® Ministries, www.Peacemaker.net. Reprinted with permission." Peacemaker Ministries may withdraw or modify this grant of permission at any time.
Conflicts Involving the Pastor...
...If you have additional questions concerning the church conflict intervention services available from Peacemaker Ministries, be sure to call (406) 256-1583 to speak with a consultant.
She will be in tomorrow after 12:30 I believe, any of you BBC can call her, do not worry that you are just a member she will instruct you on what you should do. One of you please just get the ball rolling, I do not think BBC will refuse help if they call them. Maybe even one of you are on staff at BBC who read this, and so you call, and let us know. I believe the L-RD will use Peacemaker Ministries if only BBC will agree. Somebody, anybody (BBC member) please try.
I can't speak to that. But Kool-aid (ing/ers) would comport rather closely with with the definition of those who seemingly ignore such agregious actions as we've seen for loyalty to a cult of charisma. Maybe that isn't the case. I hope not.
All I can say is that "hate" gets bandied about here more than a tennis ball at flushing meadows, but it's almost always used not to convey the idea of "hate" proper, but of "that which is in opposition to." It's not the right word, but it's used because it has emotionally charged overtones. Calling something hate doesn't make it hate.
At this point, I'm waiting for someone to tromp out the word "intolerant."
Friendinjax - I too, am a member of FBC Jax and have some serious concerns about several decisions that were seemingly unilaterally made by Mac Brunson. Like you, I will not go into all of them here, except as they relate to Steve Gaines, and the similarities in transition you point out. Belleveu considers themselves the "flagship" or "cornerstone" church in the SBC, but the same could be argued for FBC Jax. Having several thousand pastors there, it will be very tempting for Steve Gaines (or one of the other pastors) to use the platform to "spin" this situation and get standing ovations from pastors who are there to learn and grow but will feel pressure to support SG. To avoid this temptation, and to avoid even the appearance of politics, Steve Gaines should not speak at this event. If he does, the conference will have made known it is more of a political convention than a pastor's conference. Also, no need to wait for the facts before canceling SG's gig. The opposite is true...until we find out more, he should not be allowed to speak.
BR- So are you going to sit here and say that Dr. Rogers did not make tons of mistakes? He did, he made tons. Many things went on behind the scenes as they do everywhere. There were plenty of people not happy and treated "badly" over those many years. Talking about living with blinders on.
How many of you on here would want EVERYTHING in your life looked at under a microscope?? I can answer that, none. Then when all your problems (faults) were known, they were aired on a blog, on the TV and on the radio.
Memphis said...
Unbelievable. There is now a nationwide campaign to ruin Gaines.
4545 said...
This blog is full of so much self, flesh, and hate it is unreal.
_______
I actually agree with what Memphis and 4545 said earlier…only with a more factual statement.
It is absolutely UNBELIEVABLE that our leaders and Pastor are so self-serving, self-centered, and in the flesh that at times, it does seem UNREAL. As for a “nationwide campaign to ruin Gaines,” I believe the Pastor is doing a fine job of doing this himself.
Thank you Memphis and 4545 for pointing this out. We appreciate it.
4545 said...
BR- So are you going to sit here and say that Dr. Rogers did not make tons of mistakes? He did, he made tons. Many things went on behind the scenes as they do everywhere. There were plenty of people not happy and treated "badly" over those many years. Talking about living with blinders on.
And you proof is?????????
Why have you waited until now to bring to light Dr.Roger's unethical activities???????
say what you will, but you will never convince me that Kool-Aid drinkers does not have a derogatory connotation.
To those who've been listening to Henry Mahan...here's another powerful sermon you might be interested in.."Three Things Modern Religionists Do Not Know"
friendinjax said- Memphis - I'm not out to "ruin" Steve Gaines...I just don't think it appropriate for him to be a KEYNOTE speaker at the premier SBC pastor's conference, given the weight of the allegations. Besides it doesn't make sense to wait for the investigation to be complete, because the investigation won't change the facts already known.
REPLY- DR. Gaines is respected by many many pastors and people all over this country and that will not change because of a hate filled blog of "allegations". Many pastors see right through this stuff. Many on here are out for blood and seem to actually get excited when a new juicy rumor hits. How sad. This has taken over the lives of many. They live it every day all day.
Also, you have been reading this blog way to much. Yes, an investigation is needed. We hardly know anything. Many "think" they know a great deal and have no clue. We do not know the true story at this point. It is a fact that several others new of the PW deal. Some for more than 6 months.
Is 4545 MD?
4545 said.
Many on here are out for blood
You seem to be out for Dr.Rogers blood .Why????
4545, any specifics yet on what would cause you to withdraw your support from Dr Gaines?
4545 said...
BR- So are you going to sit here and say that Dr. Rogers did not make tons of mistakes? He did, he made tons. Many things went on behind the scenes as they do everywhere. There were plenty of people not happy and treated "badly" over those many years. Talking about living with blinders on.
How many of you on here would want EVERYTHING in your life looked at under a microscope?? I can answer that, none. Then when all your problems (faults) were known, they were aired on a blog, on the TV and on the radio.
3:41 PM, January 02, 2007
_______
4545- I can’t speak for anybody else, but I have never said that Dr. Rogers did not make mistakes. He was human. He sinned. However, Dr. Rogers was a man of integrity with character and ethics and a humble spirit – quite a contrast to our shepherd in the pulpit today. Our leaders should be held accountable for their actions. They should be questioned. We should expect more.
As for having problems or faults (or perhaps SINs) being “aired on a blog, on the TV, and on the radio,” I believe we could also include other sources including the pulpit at BBC and the pulpit at Second Baptist Church in Union City, TN (when our Pastor spoke there). Oh, and don’t forget the local TV stations here in Memphis (Channel 3, 5, 13) for reporting about PW’s sexual abuse and the mishandling of the situation by our Pastor. And, let’s see, we have the Michael Reagan talk show carried across the nation on our radio stations. And, the countless number of other news agencies who have now started to take interest in our situation at BBC.
I know…I know. We just have blinders on. Everything is juuuussst fine, according to our leaders. In fact, everything is so fine that Harry Smith and the CC-IDKALMRMEA finished up a week early.
(CC-IDKALMRMEA = Communications Committee of I Don’t Know And Let Me Roll My Eyes Again)
Regarding Bro. Junior -- his outline may have been different this year, but his jokes were exactly the same as the last time he was with us.
(CC-IDKALMRMEA = Communications Committee of I Don’t Know And Let Me Roll My Eyes Again)
What a hoot! Made me swallow my gum!
An interesting observation from earlier today --
imaresistor said...
Habbukuk...
Praise God for your post coming from Pastor Ray out of Slice of Laodicea. It brought tears to my eyes. Anybody who misses reading Slice of Laodicea daily is really missing something. Ingrid keeps the discerners up on what is going on around us...and it is so important that we know. Some of the responses are breathtaking...as is this one. I check her webiste out daily.
Question: Why do "discerners" need a website? Sorta reminds of the Psychic Network not knowing they were going bankrupt ...
Bellevue Friend- I agree with most of what you said about Dr. Rogers. I knew him and loved him, but the fact is, he did make tons of mistakes. You can think what you will and put him on a pedestal if you would like. He was one of the greatest men of God I have ever been around and I think the best pastor I have ever heard. That being said, he was far far from perfect and made tons of mistakes.
JohnJax - good point about SG or other pastors using SG's presence there as an opportunity to spin the BBC situation - blaming his troubles on the disgruntled "few" in the blogosphere. This will likely happen, but its to be expected. As you recall, here in Jacksonville Tom Messer is the pastor at Trinity Baptist Church (independent) and it was known by Messer and other leaders that his predeccessor Bob Gray was fondling boys and girls in the church in the 1980s, yet Messer swept it under the rug and chose to send Gray to Germany as a missionary rather than call the police. I am quite sure that the story Gray gave Messer is the same story that PW gave SG 6 months ago ("it was one time, it was long ago, it never was repeated"). But in Gray's case, the number of molested is still not known, but it is more than 10 (not counting any he molested in Germany while there as a missionary). Gray did unspeakable acts to both boys and girls. Messer is a man who should be prosecuted and sued by those church members who were molested by Gray AFTER Messer knew of the allegations, and in no way should still be PASTOR OF THE CHURCH! I bring this up because even after these things came to light recently, Jerry Vines and Jerry Falwell still went to a conference hosted by that church and both men shared the platform with Tom Messer. I used to think it was only the Catholics that had problems with harboring pedophiles, but I see the Messer situation, the SG fiasco with PW, and the fact that these guys (Messer and SG) are allowed to stay in power and they are indirectly supported by the likes of Vines, Falwell, and now Brunson, it just blows my mind and makes me wonder how far we have fallen. I'm waiting for Bill O'Reilly to do an expose on these kinds of matters...
4545 said...
“It is a fact that several others new of the PW deal. Some for more than 6 months.”
3:55 PM, January 02, 2007
_______
4545-
Please enlighten us with your wisdom. Let’s hear some facts.
maybejustmaybe said...
Regarding Bro. Junior -- his outline may have been different this year, but his jokes were exactly the same as the last time he was with us.
4:01 PM, January 02, 2007
Good jokes are hard to come by, good sermons take significant time to compose-and I noticed we still laughed at Junior Hill's jokes and his sermons never fail to flood the aisles with the lost...
I also noticed that Joe Jernigan started his message this Sunday with "the Lord spoke to me to prepare a message on brokenness weeks ago, before I knew I would be asked to preach today"
Steve Gaines starts his messages with: "I want to talk to you today about>>>" or the "title of my message is:>>>"
I wonder where Steve Gaines gets his messages?
Inthepew,
I would venture that the answer to your question is "moral equivelence" (though this would probbaly not be admitted as the answer). That is, if Dr Rogers did things wrong and we all love him, we can't possibly fault Dr Gaines for doing things wrong.
This is the same line of thinking that argues Western Values are no better than any other values because Western Values resulted in their own unique brutalities; thus Westerners have no right to condemn other cultures for doing wrong.
It's basically an attempt to point out hypocracy and use it as a wedge to seperate those espousing certain values from their right to espouse those values. In other words, it tries to render arguments dead by pointing to contradictions between the propenent's argument and his own behavior.
The only problem with this is that no matter our behavior, right is right and wrong is wrong. If I were a communist dicatator, who butchered innocents day in and day out, and I were to say that murder is wrong, I would be correct in declaring murder wrong. I might not have a lot of credibility, but I would be right.
And there's the rub, Dr Rogers successes or errors aside, right is right and wrong is wrong for him and for Dr Gaines. Whether one makes mistakes has no bearing on what right and wrong are.
When will we stop saying in effect "Since you're fallen too, you can't possibly judge what's right or wrong." That is absurd and unbiblical. As Paul said, "A righteous man judges all things." Thankfully we have the righteousness of Christ clothing us, the Holy Spirit guiding us, and Scripture illuminating us.
Best,
Josh
Josh- What sins has Dr. Gaines committed that you can share? I know he is a sinner and sins every day, but you know what I mean. I regards to the issues at hand. Of course there is a line anyone could cross that would cause me to not support them. I worship God, not men. There is nothing that has been proven as fact that would cause me to withdraw my support for Dr. Gaines. Actually, I am more convinced he is God's man today than ever before. I pray about it many times a day. If God ever tells me different, gives me that check in my spirit, about this or anything else, I will follow whatever He says. A great verse was posted earlier.
imaresistor,
Sorry! I got the comments mixed up! We are on the same page about pdl and gcm. (We have not even touched on the emergents!)But, now that I know what your name means, I had to chuckle. See, I was a resistor, too. Big time. Still paying for it, too. :o(
About lawsuits:
Let me make myself clear, if the state files charges that is one thing. We must cooperate. And we MUST report abuse. That is our duty. And I hope the state does file charges. In cases of abuse it is the state who is filing the charges...not the victim...right, you lawyers out there? Because abuse is a crime against the state, too.
But for one of us to file a lawsuit against the church or a member of the church is in direct violation of 1 Corinthians 6. Please read it carefully. I think this scripture is much abused by Christians. The scripture says we should rather be wronged than take another Christian to a 'heathen court'.
Abuse of children is a felony. It is not wrong to report abuse, demand justice and cooperate with the authorities. We must do that. But, the state has the responsibility to exact justice in this case. The church should have dealt with this biblically but they did not. Your leaders ignored the teaching of St. Paul in Corinthians about dealing with sexual sin in the church.
BTW: Even if the church had dealt with it Biblically, the state should still file charges.
I want to give another link to a sermon, I hope everyone will read. It is hard reading. It is a sermon by Jonathan Edwards given in 1700's. You will probably not hear a sermon like this today: Sinners in the hands of an angry God. Here is the url:
http://www.ccel.org/e/edwards/sermons/sinners.html
We will have the facts very soon.
Bro. Joe's comment was obviously meant to let those who might find his comments to be "self-serving" (or Gaines-serving) know that they weren't. Sad that everything has to have a disclaimer attached. In the churches I've attended before, I don't know that a pastor has ever been expected to preface his sermons with "the Lord laid on my heart ..." or every decision with "I've been praying about this and God is leading me to ..."
Honestly, mom4, I agree with bepatient. Why must everything be put under a microscope and subject to such negative scrutiny?
And as to Bro. Steve being on the speaker's schedule for the pastors' conference in Jacksonville, if he is such a horrible person, do you not think it might be beneficial to let the leaders of the SBC take the opportunity of being with him to counsel him personally? No, I'm sure it's a far greater good to destroy him before they have the chance to say any kind of word of wisdom that might help and heal this situation.
If you really believe that he is "destroying himself without anyone else's help," then shut down this blog and let's see what happens. I daresay not one of you would be in favor of doing that.
4545 said...
Bellevue Friend- I agree with most of what you said about Dr. Rogers. I knew him and loved him, but the fact is, he did make tons of mistakes. You can think what you will and put him on a pedestal if you would like. He was one of the greatest men of God I have ever been around and I think the best pastor I have ever heard. That being said, he was far far from perfect and made tons of mistakes.
4:05 PM, January 02, 2007
_______
4545- Just a reminder, Steve Gaines is the current Pastor of BBC. You can continue to try to deflect things back on Dr. Rogers (as others on the CC did), but it seems to be a poor decision to do so. Dr. Rogers is not here to defend himself. Steve Gaines is our current Pastor. Steve Gaines said he was told by Paul Williams back in June. These words came from SG himself.
maybejustmaybe said...
"If you really believe that he is "destroying himself without anyone else's help," then shut down this blog and let's see what happens. I daresay not one of you would be in favor of doing that"
Which is your ultimate goal....
4545 said...
Josh- What sins has Dr. Gaines committed that you can share?
4545,
How about ,lying to the sheep, trespassing,hiding a molester to start. OH wait a minute these aren't sins they are" mistakes" sorry
Josh, you're missing one of the points that's been made by talking about Dr. Rogers -- it's not to demean or criticize him, but to point out the double standard that exists between how he was revered and held in such high regard, no matter what and without criticism, but Bro. Steve is taken to the woodshed over some of the very same things that existed while Dr. Rogers was pastor. Why is that so difficult to admit? No one, I repeat, NO ONE had the fortitude to criticize the "man of God" who spoke from the "holy desk." Did they? Ever? And please spare us the "education and enlightenment" speech about the difference between sodomy and other sins. I think we all get it. But there IS a double standard here. It's so sad that us "Koolaid" drinkers are the ones being accused of having our heads in the sand.
He has intimidated multiple ministers, he has lied to the congregation, he has been belligerent to the laity, he has insulted the laity, he has trespassed, he mischaracterized the trespassing, he has harbored a child molester, he has not cleared Dr Rogers name as requested by Mrs Rogers, he has endangered our children, he has made light of the Lord's sufferings, he has broken the IRS code, he has at broken at least the spirit of the law regarding the disclosure of church documents to the membership, he is not allowing the church to abide by the rules that govern it, he has prevented Matthew 18 from being exercised, he has demonized those who disagree with him, he has treated his Sheep in a manner that comports with Ez 34 . . .
Need I go on?
Now, your charming habit of not answering in specifics aside, would you like to give me a few concrete examples of things that might make you withdraw your support from Dr Gaines? If you don't want to answer in specifics, that's fine. Just tell me and I won't ask you again.
Best,
Josh
Goodness, mom4, if I didn't know your reputation, I'd insist you just posted an unsubstantiated untruth ...
Or was that your "opinion?"
maybejustmaybe said:
And as to Bro. Steve being on the speaker's schedule for the pastors' conference in Jacksonville, if he is such a horrible person, do you not think it might be beneficial to let the leaders of the SBC take the opportunity of being with him to counsel him personally? No, I'm sure it's a far greater good to destroy him before they have the chance to say any kind of word of wisdom that might help and heal this situation.
Sorry, but that logic is absolutely ridiculous. To include him at the conference so he can be "counseled" by leaders of the SBC is nonsense - any of the leaders can pick up the phone or jump on a plane and meet with SG if the situation warrants it. We're talking about a pastor who at this point appears to have committed a crime and harbored a pedophile on staff for 6 months with the BBC members not being warned - yet given a keynote speaking spot at a premiere Pastor's conference. Until the investigation is complete and some facts reveal that this is not true, SG should have the dignity himself to bow out of the conference until next year.
Bellevue Friend said...
Friends,
When a pastor preaches a revival someplace else. It's usually on allotted time i.e. time away provided by the church He pastors.
***That may be true of most churches. Does anyone know what SG's "allotted time" is at BBC? It has been said that "SG can take off whatever time he wants". Evidently, "allotted time" was not an issue last year.****
While the amount stated might seem excessive....remember, for every Bellevue He may preach for.....there are many months where he would be serving much smaller congregations resulting in less love offerings.
***Didn't Junior Hill have a church? (I thought he did, but I may be wrong) There is a difference in an Evangelist and a Preacher. BBC thought we were getting a Preacher.
I find it interesting that while my Pastor goes to your church, he is still getting paid by BBC AND receiving a nice SPEAKERS FEE. But, we are also paying for someone to "fill" our pulpit.
NOTE: The year after SG became preacher of BBC, our budget increased for "Pulpit Supply". When asked why we need to increase this in our budget, it was said that we did not have enough the previous year. Responded, "but we did not have a preacher that year, why do we need more"? Committee, because we need more money. It seems the committee knew we gained a traveling Pastor/Evangelist.
When another Preacher comes to BBC, he continues to be payed by his congregation AND he receives a SPEAKERS FEE.
Isn't that double dipping? Why not your Pastor come to our church and as repayment, our Pastor will come to your church. Sound fair, doesn't it?
This appears to be a nice 2nd job for many preachers in the SBC. I guess we can call it the SBC speakers/evangelist circuit. I have you at my church, pay you 5K and you can return the favor and have me to your church and you can pay me 5K.***
Remember to, that is his calling.....health insurance, vacation anything else...often including travel ( To the smaller Churches) etc....comes out on the evangelists pocket.
***Again, this is true if you are an EVANGELIST. We are talking about FULL TIME PREACHERS WHO ARE TO CARE FOR THEIR FLOCKS...RIGHT??? They have insurance, housing allowance, expense account, car allowance, gas paid for, retirement, etc...
We could call this "The Fleecing of the Flock"***
bellevue friend said- Dr. Gaines- 15 months, Numerous scandals, excessive salary, mistreatment of staff, mocks Bellevue at Union City, often asks for Amens...but silences a man who did it too frequently, puts Bellevue negatively in the National media, by sitting for 6 months on a delicate moral issue...etc, approves $25,000 dollars to a church that affirms homosexuality and abortion ETC!
1. What "scandals"
2. Salary? what is it and who are you to judge that?
3. Mistreatment of staff? Many staff say different. I guess you think that did not go on under Dr. Rogers and other past leadership.
4. Union city? He made a mistake and said he was sorry.
5. Please, in regards to the "dream" deal.
6. $25,000 - He did not specify the amount, several others did. He thought we needed to do something for them. Very simple. Not saying I totally agree with all that.
7. PW deal? Do you have all the facts on this? Who all knew besides Dr, Gaines? What did PW's tell Dr, Gaines etc etc etc etc etc?
Regarding my opinion of this blog, the saddest part to me is the missed potential for healing and furtherance of the Kingdom that is being squandered by the negativity that seems so prevalent. Does anyone else see that?
4545 said...
“It is a fact that several others new of the PW deal. Some for more than 6 months.”
3:55 PM, January 02, 2007
4545 said...
“We will have the facts very soon.”
4:16 PM, January 02, 2007
_______
4545- So which is it. You said that “it is a fact that several others new (knew) of the PW deal. Some for more than 6 months.” Then, 21 minutes later you said (typed) “we will have the facts very soon.”
If you have some facts, please state them. Thank you.
maybejustmaybe said...
"Goodness, mom4, if I didn't know your reputation, I'd insist you just posted an unsubstantiated untruth ...
Or was that your "opinion?"
Actually my post should have had a question mark at the end?????
But, if it walks like a duck....
MJM,
And please spare us the "education and enlightenment" speech about the difference between sodomy and other sins.
Since I haven't the foggiest what you're talking about, I'll be glad to spare you. =) Though the condescension is a bit unnecessary don't you think?
As for Dr Rogers, thank you for the clarification. I think my points standds aside from that, but still more infomration is better. For the record, I did and do disagree with Dr Rogers on some things. I did then and I do now. Openly then and openly now.
I'm hard pressed to think of anyone who would have said that he was unquestionable. I thought we all knew he had feet of clay, as all men do. For my part, my family questioned him on things in the past. I thought that's what we were to do as believers--try every spirit or some such. No?
Of course, who among us could see that any of Dr Rogers' errors in the way the church was administered would result in this? In retrospect, we all should have tried to talk to him about this. But I still don't think that it's the structure so much as the men who are the problem. A dictatorship isn't such a bad thing if you've got a good one. It's when you get a bad one that the system's flaws suddenly become so apparent. We should have had more foresight. We didn't. All we can do now is move forward and tackle the problems--not ignore them.
Best,
Josh
4545
Lives in a world where Dr.Rogers hurt people but SG only makes mistakes .
4545 has a stake in keeping the status quo. Wonder who he/she is related to?
Turning our eyes to look the other way from sin/moral failures/mistakes, etc. does not promote healing. Nor does it promote unity. God is merciful, but He is also just, and He won't just turn and look the other way when the leaders of the church are not doing what they have supposedly been called to do.
mom4, touche ... nice recovery
BBC refugee- Dr. Gaines had most of the preaching deals booked before he came to Bellevue. From what I know, he had already made the choice to not preach revival's in the future on certain nights including Wed.
Did you mind when Dr. Rogers would sometimes travel all week long and get paid by Bellevue and by the other churches?
Regarding this issue and the financial issues, many hold Dr. Gaines to a standard they did not hold Dr. Rogers to. That is a fact. All of the crazy credit card stuff and nothing came of it. Dr. Gaines goes above and beyond in that area. Dr, Rogers would spend money on all kinds of dinners etc etc etc etc. Was that wrong, I do not think so. I also do not think that anything Dr, Gaines has done in that area is wrong. If Dr. Gaines was gone as much as Dr. Rogers was several years ago, many of you would go crazy and bash him for it. You did not say a word before. Many of the pastors are the mega churches are gone all week every week.
2:52 PM, January 02, 2007
Memphis, since SG knew about PW in June can we not assume that he started the investigation six months ago, after all as you state often he is a men of the utmost integrity. Surely he didn't wait until the world found out?
I have never said those words “a men of utmost integrity” Please do not put words in my posts.
And for the umteenth time, I believe PW should have been fired back 17 years ago. Why not go after shoever harbored him for the 17 years in question? Why not have public outrages calling for his resignation??
And Custos,
"But Kool-aid (ing/ers) would comport rather closely with with the definition of those who seemingly ignore such agregious actions as we've seen for loyalty to a cult of charisma. Maybe that isn't the case."
I admit, you can write very well. Even though you might not find it offensive, that does not make it ok. You want to say that since I support my pastor, that I belong to a cult???
I notice many have made very reasonable requests that the term Kool aid drinkers not be used, which have been ignored.
So I guess I am asking, according to your words, if you do not think it is wrong, does that make it right? Trying to understand Bro.
Wonder how many of the "consequences of sin" are the direct result of God's people not extending grace far enough? Not all of our sins have consequences, and some can go away completely if we will let them. Someone said last night (I will find the exact post of necessary) something to the effect that there must always be judgment when there is sin. I beg to differ. Jesus took care of condemnation at Calvary. Otherwise, what was the point? He frees us from our sin -- from the bondage of it, the curse of it, the weight of it, and yes, very frequently even the consequences of it. Not because we deserve it, because we all know where we would be if we got what we deserve. No, He does it because of grace. Not cheap grace, but full grace.
Where in the Scripture does it say we have the express responsibility to exact punishment and consequences on a brother or sister in Christ for their sin?
nthepew- Please stop putting words in my mouth you further your agenda.
A good point Memphis, and I think I agree with you. In all honesty, I don't remember seeing those requests and I certainly will refrain now that I know they're out there (though i don't think I used the term in the past either).
Certainly if it's offensive (within reason) to another, we should refrain from it--submitting ourselves to one another and such.
My point was about "hate" being used so improperly so much of the time. Kool-aid was brought up as some sort of counterpoint to my contention about "hate."
The bringing up of kool-aid accusations again frustrates me because it seems to indicate a preference for finger-pointing, you-did-it-first'ism instead of actaully engaging issues.
All of this talk about offending each other and saying we're sorry and oh I'll forgive you is grand, but it gets us no where when it comes to actually dealing with ideas.
I think more often than not, it's a cheap way to score pseudo-points by deligtimizing the other guy instead of egaging his argument.
Just my two cents.
Best,
JM
MJM SAID...
"Not all of our sins have consequences, and some can go away completely if we will let them. Someone said last night (I will find the exact post of necessary) something to the effect that there must always be judgment when there is sin. I beg to differ."
I can now see why you support the pastor.
Josh- Your fancy words may be used to try and deceive, hurt, and demean others, but I for one am not falling for them for one second. God has gifted you in many ways. make sure you are using those gifts to glorify Him.
maybejustmaybe said...
"Regarding my opinion of this blog, the saddest part to me is the missed potential for healing and furtherance of the Kingdom that is being squandered by the negativity that seems so prevalent. Does anyone else see that? "
Besides being so disruptive to those on this blog with a common bond of spiritual abuse, who are making a desparate attempt to save their church, you are missing the entire point. The healing needs to come from the pastor of the church...instead he is the one who has created the need for healing. The sooner people like yourself can see that, the sooner you can all move forward to the furtherance of the Kingdom.
I have had no conversations with you whatsoever, and you come at me with sarcasism. What is wrong with you people? Sorry, but your fruit is showing.
And I won't respond to any of your posts.
mjm,
You need to get a grasp on the reaping/sowing principle...you'll reap what you sow...sooner or later.
Custos, I thank you in advance for not using that term.
and also I like kool aid (Black cherry) I just do not like the way it has been used.
"The bringing up of kool-aid accusations again frustrates me because it seems to indicate a preference for finger-pointing, you-did-it-first'ism instead of actaully engaging issues.
All of this talk about offending each other and saying we're sorry and oh I'll forgive you is grand, but it gets us no where when it comes to actually dealing with ideas."
I agree, and I think it keeps people from posting their opinions becasue they do not want to have 15 people firing back at them.
I guess that is another thing that frustrates me is that the same things keep getting posted over and over, and I do not see where the blog has made any progress since it started.
I honestly pray for answers and solutions that everyone will be happy with, and with the acceptance of whatever happens is God's plan, and that this is not seen as being won by one side or the other.
Thank you 4545--to God be the glory for any gifts I have (and any gifts that EVER get used rightly).
It may not mean much to you, but I'm truly not trying to decieve or obscure the truth. On the contrary, I'm trying to illuminate it.
I do sincerely thank you for your kind words though.
Best,
Josh
Ima said,
The healing needs to come from the pastor of the church...instead he is the one who has created the need for healing. The sooner people like yourself can see that, the sooner you can all move forward to the furtherance of the Kingdom.
The healing needs to come from all of us. And "you can all move forward to the furtherance of the Kingdom?" I thought that was the responsibility of the entire church, Ima, not just the Pastor.
No need to respond.
Somebody help me. Are we supposed to respond to 4545?
4545, Why do you HATE Dr. Rogers so much. Why do you try to justify everything by bringing in Dr. Rogers. What is your stake in this? You say "What scandals". Surely you are not serious.
Do you know how much time Dr Rogers took off each year? I do. It was not close. Other than the year he was ill. Not even close. No comparison.
Dr Rogers is not here to defend himself. I can assure you that things would be different today if he was and you know that. Aren't you people brave to criticize Dr Rogers today. You had 32 years to do that. You were either a coward then or gutless today to stand for truth. It appears you really don't stand for much.
If you have qualms with the family of Dr Rogers, you should first go to the family. What purpose is there for you to try to include him in every mistep/sin that SG commits?
If you would like to restore your own credibility, please explain Dr Rogers travel schedule several years ago as you stated "If Dr. Gaines was gone as much as Dr. Rogers was several years ago".
If you cannot quantify this, do not look for any responses from me, you have only exposed yourself.
Thanks, AOG, but I get the "reap and sow" principle. I've raised two teenagers. (smiling)
MJM,
Some of our sins don't have consequences? And some will go away if we let them?
Maybe I'm really misunderstanding your statement, but all sin is an offense to God, no matter how big or small. All sin is sin against God. And God is holy. Now, for those who are born again, Jesus has paid for our sin, BUT that does not make consequences disappear.
And that doesn't mean that when we're Christians and we sin that we just hope it will "go away." We confess our sin to the Lord and repent (hopefully!).
Again, maybe I just completely misunderstood what you said, but if I didn't, then please think about it.
Guys, can we please pick a word other than "hate." I think it's a stretch to say that 4545 "hates" Dr Rogers. It seems more like he's using him as a sort of argument in favor of Dr Gaines--citing Dr Rogers errors to justify Dr Gaines.
It doesn't make sense, but it's not hate.
Well, the post I just responded to has vanished.
You lovely people have kept me from getting virtually any research done today. But it has been enjoyable as always.
May the God who never sleeps nor slumbers watch over you tonight.
Custos has left the building . . .
Custos,
Thank you for speaking for 4545, but I would like to hear that from he/she/it.
I know you all are getting close lately, but I do not know where 4545 is coming from which is why I asked.
socwork, thank you for responding in such a kind tone. If I may, let me brew on my response on the way home. I want to be sure I articulate what I'm trying to say in the right way, so as to not miscommunicate. I'd like to look up some Scripture to make sure I understand my own point fully (smiling). I will post that response later this evening, perhaps after dinner.
Thanks again.
4545
About the Wednesday night thing:
Dr. Rogers used to preach almost EVERY Wednesday night and usually this was the best time to hear him because he was more personal with his flock. I remember when we were still on Bellevue in the old building and my husband and I would go straight from work, eat dinner there, and then attend the service. Those were great times.
I do know as time went on he was out of the pulpit some but not always.
Then we get a pastor who says he NEVER plans to preach on Wednesdays because he is too busy. Then he proceeds to preach at other churches. Why not tell us he had other engagements?!!!
Then he hires David Coombs to work along with Mark D. because he is too busy. The fact is, he is just too busy to be our pastor from the sound of it.
In regards to Dr. Rogers being perfect:
Nobody believes he was perfect. However, he was BLAMELESS. He never let accusations go unaddressed. He dealt with sin quickly. He was known for his humility.
I only wish he had provided us with bylaws to protect us from the corruption that has been uncovered. But maybe God wanted all of this brought to light and it never would have otherwise..
4545 said...
nthepew- Please stop putting words in my mouth you further your agenda.
4:43 PM, January 02, 2007
Ok lets see lets quote you and see if I am putting words YOUR mouth
Your words today"4545 said...
BR- So are you going to sit here and say that Dr. Rogers did not make tons of mistakes? He did, he made tons. Many things went on behind the scenes as they do everywhere. There were plenty of people not happy and treated "badly" over those many years. Talking about living with blinders on.
3:46 PM, January 02, 2007 "
maybe I did misquote you you didn't say Dr.Rogers didn't hurt people he just treated them badly, Please accept my apology
Just to let ya'll know:
I called the church today at 8:35 AM and requested my "file" from my 'counseling' session with PW.
So far, no word on that.
Any others out there that want their file, email me, please at
fedupatbbc@yahoo.com
Lindon said... "Sorry! I got the comments mixed up! We are on the same page about pdl and gcm. (We have not even touched on the emergents!)But, now that I know what your name means, I had to chuckle. See, I was a resistor, too. Big time. Still paying for it, too. :o("
YES! We are on exactly the same page. I have read what all you have had to say...and you express my feelings beautifully. :) Yes, my name means I'm a resistor. And I am. Big time, too. Still paying for it??? YES. I find that it changes your life permanently. Things will never be the same again. But we both know what that means, don't we. We are talking eternity. The narrow gate.
No, we haven't touched on the emergent church. Do you see that here as well? I read an excellent commentary on that by Roger Oakland yesterday...and it really is mind boggling! That had gotten into my church as well as PDL. Some chanting...Catholic Bible...Oneness. I was about to come undone in the pews!!! Oh...and the silence, don't forget about that one. I expected the labrynith at any moment. People don't recognize what is going on around them because they are so unfamiliar with it...and who wouldn't be? And on top of that, they are going to follow and swallow. Never question the pastor...that is just something you don't do. We are raised that way I think. The pastor would never mislead! Well...they are now! The Bible tells us to 'test the spirits'. And I do...and I will. Keep up the good commentaries! And continue Slice...even discerners need help from time to time. And they give help too. :)
How to Know When the Emerging Church Shows Signs of Emerging in Your Church by Roger Oakland
Comes highly recommended.
http://www.understandthetimes.org/commentary/c54_pf.shtml
New BBC Open Forum said...
MB wrote:
"I own the copyright for the elongated spelling of "evil," so you owe me five cents. :)"
Actually, I bet Rush was saying it before you were, so I'm sure he got a copyright on it first!
That's the difference between verbalizing it and writing it. Actually, whenever Rush writes it, he pays me five cents--thus, my impending plan to buy both Microsoft and Google for cash...
As for the rest of what you said you profess to know... you don't, nor does 4545.
Please rewind, when you have a moment. I didn't profess knowledge, I merely made suggestions. Quoting myself thusly, and like so:
"Actually, the two activities can be mutually exclusive, and that's not a stretch. Not that they necessarily are, but that they can be."
"One might conclude that such people would've already volunteered the fact that they're involved in a prayer ministry or prayer group, if indeed they were."
For example, I can play the accordion and participate in a host of other activities I've never shared on this forum. It was a loaded question intended to make the people posting here look bad, and it didn't work. Sorry.
You can play the accordian? I must tell you, I'm a big fan of Lawrence Welk.
And Myron Floren knew how to rock the house.
Seriously.
I know you think I'm kidding, but I'm not.
No joke.
As for the aforementioned question, it may have been loaded, and it may not have been. We'll have to ask the individual posing the question.
I have sensed a softening in your tone of late.
Perhaps because there's an increase in substantive communication and a withering of anti-Bellevue bomb-throwing?
In fairness, though, you're not the only person to make that observation. I attribute the perception to the fact that while the behavior of those with objections (reasonable or otherwise) has improved, the behavior of certain members of Bellevue's lay and paid staff has become uneven.
Which is why we need a business meeting to address these problems directly and openly.
Do I detect that you've perhaps come to the conclusion that some of the things we've discussed here in the past few months aren't so far-fetched after all?
NASS
12:15 PM, January 02, 2007
As I've stated previously, I've been privately inquiring into a number of issues. While many of the older topics of discussion here are still matters of taste, many of the more recent topics are not.
And you still owe me a nickel...
--Mike
I come back, only to read personal attacks from some of the Godly Christians that make up this blog.
And yet, here you are, again, with us.
Welcome back!
bbc refugee- Why do you continue to put words in my mouth and try and deceive and mislead?? I have stressed more than once that I loved Dr. Rogers. He is my favorite preacher of all time and I knew him.
I guess it is time I ask this question and seek additional information. I seen much reference the last few days about the "moral failure" situation being known to some of the staff at Bellevue for over 17 years. As far as I know that is just rummor. I have not heard anyone step up and say it is true. So here it goes, if anyone has "actual" knowledge of any staff member being aware of this 17 years ago would you please contact me? I have NO problem in turning their names over to the DA or DCS. In fact I have those numbers in my phone as speed dials. If there is any truth to this "rummor" these people should be dealt with and removed from ministry also.
As I have said so many times before I am sick and tired of "good meaning" leaders that are in a position to deal with this evil in the proper manner, remain silent. For the life of me, I don't understand why.
And today the discussion was about Christians suing other Christians. Many of you say it is not allowed in Scriptures and therefore not right. Would you please show me as a sexual abuse victim in Scriptures where sexually abusing children is ok? Most all of you have read the heartfelt testimonies of many abuse vicitms the last few days. What about them? How dare you tell them what they can do or not do. You simply have not walked or lived in our shoes. You have no idea what it is like to be a victim of sexual abuse.
I chose not to sue. But not for Scriptual reasons. I have chosen to be thorn in the side of those that protect, defend or cover up pedophiles by my voice and speaking out for victims.
I do stand before you not as a perfect man but as a broken sinner. If it were not for my love and faith in HIM, I would have checked out of here long ago. Now that is a lesson in Grace. Unfortunately many sexual abuse victims don't hang around. I would like each of you that are publically talking all this prayer and Bible reading stuff to add the victims of this abuse to your lists to pray for us. Even as long as I have been doing this, reading those stories this weekend affected me too. I was sicken again. I was reminded of my abuse again. We are in need of much prayer.
Please remember we ALL are brothers and sisters in Christ. Regardless of what side of the arugments you are on with Dr. Gaines, we are all negatively affected by this. But I pray we are all of one accord in denouncing this evil and demand truth and transparency from our leaders. Anything less is to leave mine, your children, grandchildren in harms way and that my dear friends is clearly against the Word of God.
Please pray for us.
David Brown
SNAP Coordinator for Memphis and West Tennessee
Would be interesting to know if SG cautioned his own kids to stay away from PW, while allowing every one else's kids to be at risk.
Maybejustmaybe wrote: "Not all of our sins have consequences, and some can go away completely if we will let them."
Sanctification must be much easier for you than it has been for me.
"Someone said last night (I will find the exact post of necessary) something to the effect that there must always be judgment when there is sin. I beg to differ. Jesus took care of condemnation at Calvary. Otherwise, what was the point? He frees us from our sin -- from the bondage of it, the curse of it, the weight of it, and yes, very frequently even the consequences of it. Not because we deserve it, because we all know where we would be if we got what we deserve. No, He does it because of grace. Not cheap grace, but full grace."
But you have just described cheap grace. Have you met anyone who has completely rid sin in their life?
Let me put it another way. Have you met someone who came up to you and said, I just got hit by a 10 ton truck today. You look at them and they seem ok. So, you don't believe them because they do not look or seem different.
Following Christ should make us look as different as getting hit by a ten ton truck. Our sin, any sin that is even a bad thought fills us with godly sorrow and shame. We are appalled at ourselves. Through the work of the Holy Spirit, in prayer and in the Word, the weeding of sin is a long and arduous process. Sin starts in our hearts and minds with thoughts.
There are plenty of unsaved sinners out there who would never even think of sodomizing a child. Think about that for a moment. Was Paul Williams saved? (gasp...how dare she judge). I can only go by fruit. Was he so appalled by his sin he threw himself on the mercy of his brothers and sisters in Christ that he was 'ministering' to 17 years ago?
Why hasn't your pastor been as appalled? Why did he not follow I Corinthians in dealing with PW?
What you have described above in your statements, is exactly the kind of teaching we are seeing perpetuated in PDL, GCM and Emergent circles. It has infested our churches and I am convinced there are millions out there sitting in pews who think they are saved but are not. I was one of them for many years...I came forward and said a prayer many years ago. But, I was not hit by a 10 ton truck.
"Where in the Scripture does it say we have the express responsibility to exact punishment and consequences on a brother or sister in Christ for their sin?"
God will exact punishment. Jesus is coming back with a Sword in His Mouth. That Sword represents the Word of God. Think about that for a moment. The Word in His Mouth.
We have a responsibility to the 'purity' of His Bride. We will be judged for it.
For more information, start with Genesis and finish with Revelations.
May HIS Name be Magnified!
David,
Thank you for your kind words, and I, for one, appreciate all you do to promote transparency in our leaders where the sexual abuse of children is concerned. With what you have personally lived through, I know that this cannot be easy. I'm sure that it is with great sacrifice for your own emotional well being that you continue to be that thorn in the side of those who would protect, defend or cover up pedofiles.
It is a TRAVESTY that there are parents at BBC who do not understand the risk that their children were put in when SG made the decision to keep quiet.
They are at odds with the best interest of their own children when they stand and applaud a man who did not care enough about their children to keep them safe from a chid predator. What kind of parent would care more about loyalty to a pastor, than they care about the fact that their children were put so close to harm's way by the negligence of this man? What kind of parent would continue to DEFEND this man even now, knowing that he was quiet for 6 months.
Do they have ANY idea of the devastating effects of childhood sexual abuse?
Did they think that since he "only raped his own child" that their children were safe and not in harm's way?
That is an oxymoron in and of itself.
I appreciate all you do to try to educate and equip parents to keep their children safe from the devasting effects of this horrible CRIME.
I will pray that for ' peace that passeth all understanding' will prevail in your life as you deal wtih these memories. May God bless you.
allofgrace,
Speaking of Finneyism, a great book that outlines Evangelicalism in the last century is called Evangelicalism Divided by Ian McMurray. It is a well researched and documented narrative. It is quite a shocker to read. He outlines conscious decisions made by well known evangelicals in the early and mid part of the century that have given us what we have today: Easy Believism. Say a prayer, get baptized and pronto, you are saved!
What most people do not realize is that alter calls only started about a hundred years ago. Before that, it was unheard of.
Lindon said, "What you have described above in your statements, is exactly the kind of teaching we are seeing perpetuated in PDL, GCM and Emergent circles. It has infested our churches and I am convinced there are millions out there sitting in pews who think they are saved but are not."
BINGO!
David Brown wrote: "And today the discussion was about Christians suing other Christians. Many of you say it is not allowed in Scriptures and therefore not right. Would you please show me as a sexual abuse victim in Scriptures where sexually abusing children is ok?"
David, Please forgive me. I know my comments on lawsuits must have been very hurtful to you and others here. We both know abusing children is never ok. It is tragic and horrible. It must be a pain that will not go away until Jesus restores. And, hiding it, as Gaines did, is just like doing it again, I think because of the message it sends the victim.
I do not know what a SNAP coordinator is...do you work with abused children? If so, can you tell me how it works when charges are brought forward. Doesn't the state file the charges against the abuser? Doesn't the state act as Plaintiff for the abused?
As a matter of fact, in my state, I have read where abuse cases take on a life of their own. EVen after the abused person recants for fear or whatever, the state still pursues the case.
The problem is even compounded in this case becasue there are no Biblical authorities to go to. The SBC is a joke and has no jurisdiction. (Frank Page, friend of PDL and Emergent)
Anyway, David, please know that my prayers have especially been for the victims. My goodness, what message has the handling of this sent to them?
David, I am well aquainted with atheists who would never do such a thing! The whole thing floors me.
Lindon said, "The SBC is a joke and has no jurisdiction. (Frank Page, friend of PDL and Emergent)..."
BINGO AGAIN!
SBC? I call it the Southern Baptist Circus. :(
To quote Frank Page, SBC President Frank Page: "I see many valuable contributions to the SBC coming from the Emergent Leaders Movement. I believe it is a positive thing to see a broader number of participants in our convention’s direction. I personally applaud this movement."
In fact, I am of the opinion that this whole PDL/CGM/Emergent Movement/Ecumenical Movement has been on simmer (aka slow boil) for a long time, having moved into the SBC and into the seminaries in like manner. Satan in having a heyday.
Let me address the statute of limitations in this way. I do not know the answer really. Kevin Rardin of the DA office is the one to talk to about it. The law has changed recently extending the statute HOWEVER, there are circumstances and other factors that effect when the statute of limitations run. I am not an attorney and that is why I defer to Kevin. If there is anyone that is a victim of this horrible crime, regardless of when or who abused you, contact him if for nothing else, peace of mind.
I hate seeing the lawsuits but you what? How else are you going to get the attention of arrogant religious leaders that put assets and whatever before children. If these so-called men of God had done the right thing to begin with, there wouldn't be any suits. What I have heard from the victims is this: "it has never been about the money, they only wanted the truth." Yet we never really get it.
I will say this for the pedophiles of Tennessee. You are so "blessed" you don't live in Maryland. Why? Look what happened to Ron Meroney, local minister and TV personality. He plead out to rape in Movember of 2005 to what he did over 39 years ago. There is no statute of limitations on felonies in that state. Why can't Tennessee be that way? Are the children in Maryland more valuable than ours in Tennessee?
I was very serious ealier when I asked for names. I have seen much suggested about what did or did not happend 17 years ago and who knew. I do not know about anyone of that but if there is a anyone out there that does, whether you are Bellevue or not and you have information, please contact me.
I do appreciate the prayers and concerns from BOTH sides of the Dr. Gaines arguments. I just wish I could get all of you in a room together and in a season of prayer on our knees seeking His face. You ALL would realize what beautiful chilren of God you are. Who knows, ACE, 4545, Tim WTNB, Mike B, NASS and myself may have our heavenly mansions right next to each other.
If you have specific questions please either email me or call me. I have tried to respond to everyone that has contacted me to the best of my ability. I do thank you all.
Although I am an Independent Baptist I disagree with the derogatory comment about the SBC. It is not a circus. As far as I know there is no mutual christian effort as effective as the SBC. Although the glorious doctrine of eternal security has been poorly taught and represented by some it is still biblically valid and scripturally sound.
ezekiel said...
And IMHO you can add the "once saved always saved" doctrine to that as well. They can cuss, scream, hate, judge, lie, control, manipulate, abuse... but they are sure they are saved because they went to the front back when they were a child.....
Wow. The more I read, the more astounded I become. Does your statement mean that you believe that someone who has accepted the fact that Jesus died for their sins and has turned his own sins over to Jesus could actually fall from the grace that Jesus promised?
If that is your point, then I would challenge you to find a single scriptural reference to substantuate that belief.
If I have somehow misunderstood you statement, I apologize.
WOUNDEDANDBLEEDING said...
After much prayer, we have decided to support any proper legal action against Bellevue Baptist Church which will bring resolve to the issues at hand.
I definitely fear this is a dangerous path to follow. I again ask that you prayerfully read 1 Chorinthians 6 before you decide to head down that path.
MB wrote:
"You can play the accordian?"
Yes, and I can spell it, too -- accordion.
"I attribute the perception to the fact that while the behavior of those with objections (reasonable or otherwise) has improved, the behavior of certain members of Bellevue's lay and paid staff has become uneven."
"Uneven"? Is that the same as "unbalanced"?
"Which is why we need a business meeting to address these problems directly and openly."
I don't think it's going to happen. If it does, it'll be nothing more than a large-scale "communications committee" meeting where they'll trot out Harry Smith or someone else who'll answer, "I don't know" or "Who told you that?" to every question. I don't think Steve Gaines would ever agree to answer questions from the floor.
"As I've stated previously, I've been privately inquiring into a number of issues. While many of the older topics of discussion here are still matters of taste, many of the more recent topics are not."
Interesting thing about inquiring. Often the people with the answers won't talk to just anyone. What's your common, nobody sheep to do?
"And you still owe me a nickel... "
Put it on my tab.
NASS
sister pam,
If bbc refuses to give me my file from where i was so 'biblically counseled' by PW before i was allowed to VOLUTEER at vbs, they are going to find themselves answering to my attorney.
fedup, just curious, but how long ago did you fill out the application to volunteer?
Ez
I see form your response that this has undoubtedly been discussed previous posts.
My one question to you is:
What does JESUS say? To me, that is the final word on the subject.
memphis
10 years
and that matters, WHY?
fedup, I was just asking becasue I do not remember filling out alot of forms when I worked in the nursery, I just remember going to some kind of workshop.
MEMPHIS
That is because when I filled in the application to volunteer, i FOOLISHLY told the truth and checked the YES box when the questions was asked
Have you ever been sexually abused.
And then they sent me to be abused by PAul Williams
Memphis
I called Deborah Houseal at the time and talked to her for a LOng tiime about how it was not fair to force me to bear my sole because i was the victim. And she assured me that it would be ok.
I should have lied.
Surely BBC wouldn't have a problem with that, would they.
fedup, I was not trying to pick a fight with you. I simply asked a question. I am not your enemy.
MEMPHIS
I know. Sorry i made it seem that way.
I'm just mad..not at you. At the situation.
and to answer your question, no I was not sexually abused
memphis
go back and read my post..i was not asking if YOU were sexually abused...
I was posting that i answered the question on the application:
have you ever been sexually abused
I am not upset wtih you. I'm sorry my posts made it seem that way...really...
Ez,
What your really discussing here is Lordship Salvation. Google it and you'll have lots to read about. Most Baptists are dead set against Lordship Salvation because it really means you get to heaven based on your works not by "free grace". Meaning people that hold to Lordship Salvation believe that you must show a significant change in your life after being saved that demonstrated Christ's Lordship over you. My Wife and I had a lengthy discussion on this very thing last week. Yes the moment you took Jesus into your heart you were saved. Jesus was your Savior he just wasn't your Lord until those 35 years later.
memphis
those of us that checked ' yes' to that question were sent to a
'different line' than those of you that did not check it.
Most likely, if you did not have to check yes, you probly just checked no and never thought about it again.
Since that time, so many women have told me that they lied and checked no. I wish i had.
ezekiel said...
astounded,
You said,
Wow. The more I read, the more astounded I become. Does your statement mean that you believe that someone who has accepted the fact that Jesus died for their sins and has turned his own sins over to Jesus could actually fall from the grace that Jesus promised?
I don't know. Where would you put Paul Williams today. Saved? Fallen from Grace? Never was saved to begin with? I know this is not for us to judge, but really, how do we apply this example to our own lives?
Remember that, to God, there is no degree to sin. Stealing a candy bar is enough to lead to damnation. Actually, simply being born of Adam is a death sentence. Do I beleive it was possible for PW to commit the sin he committed as a born-again christian? Yes.
Where would you classify me, saved at 13 chasing worldy things for 35 years before I turned back to Jesus?
You are the only one, except God, that can answer that question. Did you actually trust in Jesus to save you from your sins at 13? If so then you received salvation at that point in time. Jesus died for you sins, past sins, present sins and future sins. Once saved by the blood, there is no sin that is unforgiven.
If I would have died 5 years ago physically, would I have died spiritually then or did I do that when I stopped following God and pursued worldly things?
If you were saved at 13 you were still of the body of Christ. Time is a human concept. It does not matter is you backslid for 1 minute or 50 years. You are still of the body of Christ.
Pursuing worldy things is Idol worship is it not? and the punishment for idolatry is......
....washed away by the blood of Jesus Christ; past idolatry, present idolatry, or future idolatry.
In summation, I think you are confusing guilt for falling from grace. No matter how godly or righteous you live your life from this point on, you will NOT qualify for salvation by this godliness or righteousness. Only through Christ's death can you live.
I understand. Are we using the same process we have used for the last 10 (?) years? Maybe that is something that should be reviewed as well.
Memphis,
I have no idea what the process is now.
I haven't seen any new forms.
AT the time, I thought it WAS a good idea to interview people who had been sexually abused. The reason they do this is becuase so many times, those who have beeen sexually abused go on to abuse children. It is a viscious cycle.
I knew that I am not, could not be an abuser, but thought i was doing the right thing in checking yes to the question.
Unfortunately, they had a pervert sitting in judgemet on us, preying on the vulnerable.
I do not know if someone in the church knew about PW at that time or not. I would like to think that they did not. After all, why would they have let him continue in that capacity?
Today when I called up there to discuss getting my file, I was told that I could talk to Mark D.
That was piling insult to my injury. I was doing ok until they suggested that i bare my soul to yet another man, who, in my opinion, no longer belongs in the ministry. He is a weak, spineless little wienie. Suggesting that I talk to Mark D. helped me to understand that they just don't get it. If they think that i am so stupid as to believe anything that jerk says, they have another think coming.
I know that some of you who grew up in the SBC will probly be shocked that i would call someone you feel to be " god's annointed" a jerk. But let me tell you, i hold no such allegiance to the SBC. And when men act like jerks, i do not blindly follow them. I have a brain, and i intend to use it to discern for myself who is worthy of my trust and who is not.
I will never ever again let my guard down just becuase someone has the word, ' minister' after their name. To do so, would be cult-like.
Not picking on anyone in particular on here..But the situation is outrageous and our only recorse is to talk to Mark D.????
PUHHHLEEEZZZZZE
ezekiel said...
I like it a lot better when he is LORD!
I am still working it out, with fear and trembling....
One thing that I think will help you while reading the Word, wspecially the Old Testament.
Exodus 32:33 states:
The LORD replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.
If you read this as it stands, all names will HAVE to be blotted out of the book of Life.
This verse explains the consequences of sin. Much of the Old Testament is a testament to the consequences of sin. It shows that no one is worthy to walk with God. Jesus is the tool for reconciliation with God since we cannot go sinless.
I also submit that Satan will work on you with the ability to fall form God's grace. Satan loves for believers to fear a fall from God's grace. You spend far to much time trying to prove your worth to God instead of praising him for the sacrifice of himself to make reconciliation possible.
To the Church in Memphis, Bellevue Baptist Church,
I have seen a reference a number of times to I Corinthians 6. There is something that I would like for you to notice about I Corinthians 6. If you would, please pick up your Bible and turn to I Corinthians 6. If you will look very carefully you will notice that I Corinthians 5:9-13 immediately precedes it.
Now, knowing that a few did not look this Scripture up I will include it in this post.
Judgment of Immorality
I Corinthians 5:9-13
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one, no, not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
I must ask did Dr. Gaines act in accordance with I Corinthians 5:13?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
If not, then how can I Corinthians 6 be claimed? Christianity does not give us the freedom to choose the Scriptures that we want to invoke and discard those that we do not.
As to what happened 17 years ago, at this time we do not know. According to David Brown there has been no report to date that verifies that anyone knew 17 years ago. We do know, beyond doubt by his own words, that Steve Gaines was aware of this over 6 months ago. His lack of action is in direct conflict with Scripture and that is hardly debatable.
How blatantly Scripturally unsound should we determine to be acceptable?
The only Jesus who can save, is the LORD Jesus Christ. Only the LORD has authority to forgive sin. He is called LORD way many more times in the NT than savior..."whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."
Ez,
Ideally yes you should. But the Baptists don't subscribe to the idea that if you don't your not saved. That's something I had a hard time understanding myself.
Memphis,
I might have gotten off track on my last post, lol..i meant to tell you that the VERY reason that the question was on that form at all was for legal reasons.
If they failed to ask that question, and someone down the line was abused, the first thing that they would have to answer in a court of law was: Did you ask your people that worked with children if they had ever been sexually abused? Did you offer them counseling?
I'm sure the church lawyer put it on the form, as well they should have.
Unfortunately, they had a pervert waiting for the women who checked yes, licking his chops.
ezekiel said...
Astounded,
I guess you didn't like the red letter cut off and cast int he fire thing.....
This is exactly my point. Where do these verses ever mention cutting off of branches. Reading verse 2 carefully, Jesus takes the branches and cleans the sin so that the branches can bear fruit. Pruning means cleaning in this verse.
In verse 4 Jesus says that your good works are worthless eithout Him, which further supports his grace.
Verse 6 states that if you do not abide in him you are "cast off" as a branch would be. Ones that do not abide in him were never part of the tree.
ezekiel,
I John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
The verses that precede and follow this offer the ability to know that you have eternal life.
By your observation how much sin would be necessary for someone to lose their salvation?
I have never found a Scripture that gives us the ability to know that someone else does or does not have eternal. However, once you have been born again, it is spiritually impossible to become unborn. It is Scriptural that God can and will end physical life prematuraly for continual, unrepented sin.
On the subject of SG and his knowledge and failure to do anything about it.
I've been trying to describe, in words, what about it is so outrageous becuase clearly, there are those who do not find his behavior outrageous.
When he MADE THE CHOICE to remain silent, he determined that it would be better for a child to be abused than for him to have to deal with this. He could pick A, or he could pick B. Clearly, he made the wrong choice.
He chose selfish. He chose self centered. He chose self serving.
Are those the characteristics of a shephard over his sheep?
What does that say to the victims of abuse? It does not acknowledge that sexual abuse is devasting AND traumatic.
When the throngs of adulating crowds hoop and holler, they are not acknowledging that sexual abuse is devasting and traumatic.
This is the message that we get:
SO WHAT??
And to the child that Could have been molested, the crowd is saying,
SO WHAT
And to the decision that the shepherd made in keeping his flock safe, the crowd is saying :
SO WHAT
Whether in the OT or NT, no one has ever been saved except by grace through faith.
ju,
I am not convinced that you can accept Jesus as Saviour, but not as Lord. Jesus must be accepted in his entirety. It is possible to accept Jesus without fulling understanding all that you are receiving. However, that is the process of sanctification not of salvation.
We will never be completely sanctified until we are called home.
If the church lets him get by with this, in the future, SG will think that he can truly do no wrong. He will say to himself,
"oh, my sheep are stupid..they will believe anything i tell them'
ezekiel said...
Where was the Holy Spirit when this act(PW's sin) was committed? In his heart?
Weeping. If you had a son or daughter who fell into the grips of drugs would weep over that? Would you cast him out of your family?
from I Corinthians 5:9-13
fornicators
covetous
extortioners
railer
drunkard
extortioner
I don't want to imply that I am willing to excuse any and all behavior, but one thing that stands out to me is that all of these are listed in the 'present' tense. To mean it says not that you can;t be with someone who has ever done or been any of these things, just that you cannot be with people who continue to do these things or be this way. To me there is a difference between committing a sin and willfully continuing to sin.
tim,
I would add to that..that sanctification is progressive.
Tim,
It is a difficult issue to deal with. One that Baptists will vhemently discuss at length as I found out while discussing it with my Wife :).
Matt 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Sister Pam said:
If PW traveled on church business into other states, would he then be subject to the laws of the states he traveled to and through?
*****
I'm going to answer this one for David and if he sees it later, he can answer it too.
PW would be judged in the state where he committed the crime. In his travels, if he committed a crime in that particular state, he would be subject to the laws of that state.
For what he did in Tennessee, he will be subjected to the laws in the state of Tennessee.
1 Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood.
ju,
Something else that causes great confusion for many is that after our salvation, we still have our sin nature. Since, it is still there we still have the ability to sin, since the Spirit is within us we have the ability not to sin.
Before our salvation, we did not have the ability within ourselves to be free from the power of sin.
ezekiel said...
astounded,
Ah, then we grieve the Holy Spirit?
NO!!!!
The Holy Spirit grieves us.
For anyone doubting their salvation... there are some words of wisdom here:
Love Worth Finding
ezekiel said...
AOG,
Matt 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
And that will is? Abide in me. Obey my commandments and statutes...sounds like work to me!
Many accept Jesus as a prophet of God. Even the Muslims do this. Many accept the fact that Jesus is God. Accepting that fact that Jesus is God does not save you. Trusting Jesus to redeem you from your sins saves you. So yes, many believe that Jesus is the son of God and may call him Lord. If they have not trusted him with their sins they have not done the will of the Father.
It is all about works. It is about realizing that you are a sinner. It is about realizing that their is no way to God except by Jesus. It is about accepting the salvation God provided through Jesus. Those are the necessary works.
Jeremiah 32:38-41 (English Standard Version)
English Standard Version (ESV)
The Holy Bible, English Standard Version Copyright © 2001 by Crossway Bibles, a division of Good News Publishers.
[ESV from Good News Press]
38And they shall be my people, and I will be their God. 39I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear me forever, for their own good and the good of their children after them. 40I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me.
Now molesting his own son...God would have to sort that out....Stoning or a quick snap of the neck comes to mind.....
Aren't you glad that Jesus was God? If he had succumbed to those feelings which I freely admit that I also feel, he would have left us here wo wallow in Satan's playground.
Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Look at verse 22 - Great Works.
Look at verse 23 - It is not about intellectually "knowing" Him. It is about accepting Him as Lord, then He is within you. He cannot deny himself. It is about Him knowing us, because He is within us.
Ezekiel 11:19-20 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
[NKJV at Thomas Nelson] [Thomas Nelson, Inc.]
19 Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them,[a] and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God.
I remember many years ago I listened to Dr. Ramsey Pollard preach a sermon on the subject we are discussing. He laid out the various verses of scripture and talked about the various views people had about them. He stated that the Bible is the inerrant word of God so how could the inerrant word of God have so many "discrepancies"? He said it was not the Word but our interpretation of the Word that was in error. His closing of this sermon is what convinced me of eternal security.
He stated the following verse:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
That verse is the hardest verse in the Bible to misinterpret. If you agree then there are only two options. The Holy Bible is the inerrant word of God and any discrepancies are of interpretation of God's word, or that the Bible is a story book of full of parables and an indiscriminate collection of many men's writings without divine authorship.
I have chosen to believe that God wrote John 3:16, that it is not open to any other interpretation, and that the Holy Bible is the inerrant word of God Almighty.
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