Please move down six threads to the "MABTS Emergency Board Meetings" topic to find the contact information for Mr. Gene Howard and let him know of your support for the seminary and Dr. Mike Spradlin.
Also, call the church at 901-347-2000 and MABTS at 901-751-8453 to let them know you support MABTS and Dr. Spradlin. Ask if Bellevue has plans to withdraw any funding from the seminary.
There's a link for a page with instructions for adding a "linkable" link to a comment in the list of links to your right. Please check it out!
Don Boys certainly did his research for this one.
Recap of previous coverage:
The latest from Christian Worldview Network is here.
This blogger, wbishop1213, has a couple of interesting entries here. See December 23rd and 26th.
Mondaymorninginsight.com has articles here and here.
The last three Commercial Appeal articles are here. Letters to the editor appeared on the 21st, 22nd, 23rd, and 30th and are available through links on this page.
Channel 3's coverage is here and here.
Channel 5's coverage is here, here, here, here, and here.
FOX Channel 13's coverage is here and has links to other stories and the Wednesday night statement in the sidebar.
Channel 24 made this brief mention of the story.
The Baptist Blogger wrote a nice article about Mrs. Joyce Rogers here.
EthicsDaily.com has articles here, here, and here.
Several Bellevue threads are going in the baptistlife.com "SBC News and Trends" section.
The December 19th Associated Baptist Press article is here.
The Baptist Press article from December 20th is here.
The December 20th Agape Press article is here.
Bloggers Wade Burleson and Dr. Danny Chisholm have also written about Bellevue.
Another article is here.
Read the latest (December 27th) from the former "formerly brainwashed Bellevuer" aka "never put your faith in men!" A link to his blog, "Bellevue Baptist Church - My True Story" is in the sidebar on this page.
WCRV Radio (AM 640) interviewed Dr. Michael Spradlin, President of MABTS, on Thursday. The 30-minute interview can also be accessed here.
Bellevue's website now has the 12-17 and 12-19 statements by Steve Gaines and the video from the 12-20 Wednesday night service here and a description of the Christmas Eve morning and evening services here.
434 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 434 Newer› Newest»ezekiel said...
AOG,
But that new heart and new spirit should be so radically different from the old that no one should have to ask "are you saved?" huh..
Truer words have never been spoken by a man. I think we are close to being in total agreement on this subject.
Let me explain in a manner that I heard Dr. Rogers explain in a similar manner.
Apple Pie.
Person 1 "I don't belive apple pie exist"
Person 2 "Well here is an apple pie"
Person 1 "It looks like peach to me"
Person 2 "Taste it and you will see that it is apple pie"
Person 1 "No thanks. What makes you so sure that it is apple pie?"
Person 2 "See that missing slice. It is inside of me"
When the witness is inside you no longer need the proof that is outside. However, you will be more sure that the proof that is outside is true.
ez,
the key is vs 20...this is what we were saved to.
just as in our salvation, our continuance is by grace through faith...from first to last.
In I Samuel 28:13 When Saul ask the medium of Endor, "what did you see?" She replied, "I saw gods ascending out of the earth." When Saul had enquired of the Lord as he had done in the past, "the Lord answered him not." Rather, through a strange manner God mocked him through a familiar spirit. -v. 17
Could it be that God has raised up a modern day cult for the purpose of mocking American Evangelical Christianity?
The Watchtower Kingdom News #37 is titled "The End of False Religion is Near!" (I am not a JW) The inside of the paper states: (a quote from Asia Week magazine) "power-hungry leaders are cynically manipulating peoples's religious sentiments for their own needs. The world threatens to sink into madness." Futher down they state: "In western lands, church groups ordain gay and lesbian members of the clergy and urge governments to recognize same sex marriages. EVEN CHURCHES THAT CONDEMN IMMORALITY HAVE TOLERATED RELIGIOUS LEADERS WHO HAVE SEXUALLY ABUSED CHILDREN. What, though, does the Bible teach? It plainly states: 'Do not be mislead. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men . .will inherit God's kingdom.' (I Cor 6:9,10) Do you know of religions that condone immoral sex?" -end of quote
Like swarming locust they spread out over our cities seeking to mark thoes who are dispairing about the present condition of the clergy.
Could the clergy be as Saul. Samuel is dead and now there is no help from God but mockery.
The Baptist Identity Conference, February 15-17, Jackson, Tennessee.
Speakers include:
Steve Gaines,
pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church in Cordova, Tenn.,
“The Future of the Traditional Church.”
It is interesting that of the 10 speakers listed only Dr. Gains is a pastor of a church.
It will be interesting to see what his definition of a "traditional church" is. Any specifics he sets forth as changes that "traditional churches" need to make to "appleal" to t"oday's audience" are probably changes BBC can expect to see.
This could be a very interesting speech and a window into the future direction of BBC.
friendinjax,
I would like you to email me sometime today. I have news.
Oh well... so much for the New Year's resolution to type better and use the preview function.
I am going off line to write "use spell check" 100 times. Aloha.
post from yesterday article said..
It should also counsel the abuser to confess his sin, take responsibility for his actions, and seek needed counseling. These steps can prevent a court battle and speed healing for victim and offender alike.
>>> (Since an impulsive admission could allow an insurer to cancel coverage, church leaders should consult with their insurer, lawyer, and a Christian conciliator to plan their words carefully.)
CHURCH LEADERS SHOULD PLAN THE ADMISSION OF CHILD MOLESTATION CAREFULLY???
DO THEY THINK IT IS ABOUT $$??
There was a poster the other day that stated he/she knows a person who knew about PW 17 years ago. ?? We must protect our children as well as our brothers and sisters who have been hurt by this horrible crime! We cannot continue to be deceived or confused but we must stand on the WORD OF GOD!!
PLEASE READ THE BOOK OF JUDE...
Thank you, Sister Pam for helping us to share our love and prayers for CW and everyone else that has been wounded for life..
Thank you, David for all you have done and for all you continue to do...Please do not stop!!
Clinging to my Faith, Praying & Weeping...
ezekiel said:
Wake up folks, God is not getting your tithes, BBC is. They are stored up and spent on the king (SG that is).
****
and his $300 shoes
ez,
The key in the new covenant is that the law is written on the hearts of His people, and He puts His Spirit within them to cause them to walk in His statutes..the nature of regeneration is the promise to "take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh." Grace is God's work within us...the works of grace are repentance, faith, conversion. Those in the new covenant will persevere to the end because God keeps them through faith. It's grace from first to last. Grace=the desire and enablement to do God's will. Grace is God's gift to dead sinners. "for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."
ezikiel said:
8:16 And he will take your men-servants, and your maid-servants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work.
*****
sitting on my hands :)
EZ,
It seems to me that a significant portion of the OT is given to us just to show us how we fail to live up to our obligation to keep His statutes, pointing out that our only hope is grace. Out of that forgiveness from God through Christ comes a new heart indwelt by the Holy Spirit that actually makes us want to obey even though we fail miserably often (sin) and will continue to do so until the day of perfection in Jesus when we go home to be with Him. So, grace doesn't eliminate the need to aim for perfection out of love for God and gratitude for the work of His Son but it does eliminate the need to achieve it to get to heaven. God's standard for working your way to heaven? "Be ye therefore perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect" Matt 5:48. Thank God for Jesus.
Day 3: Genesis 7-9
American English translation ("NIV")
King James
Please pray a Great Commission prayer for today's nation of the day: Algeria
ez,
Since you enjoy Henry Mahan, I want to recommend a sermon of his I think will be helpful to you..."Three Things Modern Religionists Do Not Know". Give it a listen when you get the chance.
The actions of SG at BBC highlight the bigger problem in "baptist" circles these days (both SBC and independent baptist) is lack of the "big boys" holding each other accountable when they do wrong. I think this has gone on long before SG, but SG is the first one to be exposed by bloggers.
I highlighted the events in my post yesterday regarding Tom Messer, a pastor at Trinity Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Florida, who allowed his pedophile-predecessor off the hook - didn't report his fondling of boys and girls to the authorities OR the church membership but instead sent him off to Germany as a missionary. After these events came to light in the past 6 months (go to www.jacksonville.com - the Jacksonville, FL local newspaper and search for the stories), big name SBC pastors still attended a conference this year held at the church. These men who I hold in high regard (Vines and Falwell) had no business sharing the platform with Tom Messer.
Now we have Steve Gaines...it does look as though his delay of 6 months in reporting the pedophile on staff did not have the same results as Messers (Messer knew of the allegations against Bob Gray for years - during which time boys and girs WERE molested - law suits are in the works and Bob Gray is sitting in jail), here's the key question SG supporters need to consider: WHAT PROMPTED SG TO GO PUBLIC AFTER 6 MONTHS? HOW LONG WOULD SG HAVE KEPT IT HIDDEN? HOW COULD A PASTOR KNOWINGLY ALLOW A PEDOPHILE TO BE ON STAFF WITHOUT WARNING HIS CONGREGATION? I think the answer to this is obvious: as long as HE THOUGHT it was best for him; that HE was the one who should make the determination of who should know putting kids at risk. This is arrogance of the highest order. When the word was leaked and it was highlighted on the blogs, he had no choice.
Why do I bring this up again? Because FBC Jax and Mac Brunson need to take a stand...they need to pull the plug on Steve Gaines' keynote speaking engagement at the FBC Jax Pastor's Conference. BBC and FBC Jax are LEADERS in the SBC...what they do sets the standard for many other churches. If Mac Brunson were to say something like: "We are very concerned about the allegations at BBC concerning Steve Gaines and the circumstances surrounding reporting of a pedophile on staff. While the investigation is on-going, we believe it best for SG not to be a keynote speaker. We are praying for SG and for BBC, but believe that this is the right thing to do at this point in time."
Will FBC Jax do it and make a statement to other pastors and to the world that there is one mega-church who will take a stand against pedophiles and anyone who might protect them? The churches and the WORLD is watching. We shall see.
friendinjx...
Please email me. I asked earlier, but you may have missed the post.
friendinjax,
There has been some speculation offline that perhaps you are not in fact from Jacksonville but from Memphis, pressing an agenda against Steve Gaines. While I agree with your point of view and conclusions, can you offer some sort of evidence as to your identity which would remove any doubt as to your motives?
Thanks,
TS
friendnjax:
Can you post the email addys of the pastor at that mega church? I think you posted it yesterday, but please post it again so that those of us that are concerned can write to them and respectfully ask them to reconsider having SG speak.
Also, we need a list of the other speakers and their email addys so that we can contact them, too.
What about some of these online Christian news services like the ones that were posted yesterday on the home page of this blog? Would they be willing to take a stand and challenge this church to do the right thing?
I think the more publicity this receives, the better the chance that it will be more difficult to sweept it under the rug.
SG being allowed to speak at that conference tells other pastors that you can hide a pedafile and get by with it. No reprocussions. Protect yourself at all cost. Don't worry about the children.
I have sent a letter to that church asking them to reconsider. Would the rest of you do the same, please? Please.
Pedofelia thrives in secrecy.
truthsleuth said:
There has been some speculation offline that perhaps you are not in fact from Jacksonville but from Memphis, pressing an agenda against Steve Gaines
****
TS, my comments below are not directed at YOU, but rather, at those who would question the motivation of JXN:
I am from Memphis. I have an agenda against SG..this is my agenda:
He harbored a pedafile for 6 months in secret and should resign.
I need no other agenda. The fact that he harbored a pedofile stands up all by itself..If i had previously LOVED and WORSHIPPED SG ( as so many do these days), this would have been enuf to make me turn against him on a dime, to do a 180.
WHat difference does it make WHERE JXN lives? He is appauled at the actions ( or rather, INaction) of SG.
Why does he/she need any additional agenda???????
Is THAT not enuf?????
Pedofelia thrives in secrecy.
Truthsleuth...I can't offer you any evidence that I'm from Jax, except to say that I'm not from Memphis, never have stepped foot into BBC, but am a long-time member at FBC Jax since the Homer Lindsay (Jr. and Sr.) days. I have no axe to grind against Steve Gaines...but I do admit that I became interested in what is happening at BBC because like BBC, we too have a new pastor replacing a "legend", and there have been numerous changes that I won't go in to. The only issue I'm bringing up here in this blog is that I just really am not interested in Steve Gaines coming to Jacksonville to be paid to speak at the Pastors Conference with these controversies surrounding him. Oh, the other thing I can add as to why I've been following the SG/PW saga is the similarity between it and the Trinity Baptist Church saga that our city has been through - see my post.
Fedup: I don't have the email addresses for these speakers, but you can see the speaker line-up at this address:
http://jaxpastorsconference.com/schedule/
Here are the speakers:
Al Mohler
Junior Hill
Johnny Hunt
Chuck Kelley
Paige Patterson
Mac Brunson
Jerry Vines
Chip Roberson
Danny Akin
David Allen
Dorothy Patterson
Jerry Falwell
Fred Luter
Steve Gaines
Adrian Soud
Ken Whitten
Erwin Lutzer
Susie Hawkins
O.S. Hawkins
Junior Hill
Quite an impressive line-up. I don't have emails for them, would take some research. But Mac Brunson's is pastor@fbcjax.com. I am trusting that Mac Brunson will take a stand, and make the right decision. We shall see.
truthsleuth and friendinjx
:) This is another effect the purpose driven movement has on you...you lost your trust in those around you.
friendinjx and others,
I just have to ask...why is this done? I read about pastor's conferences a lot...all kinds of conferences. Why? Is this all about money? I am serious. What good comes from it? Does anybody know?
imaresistor,
Just because some pastors aren't all they should be, doesn't make pastor's conferences bad, per se. The Shepherd's Conference that John McArthur and Master's Seminary puts on each year is a good one...as well as John Piper's at Bethlehem Baptist. These are times for pastors to gather together around God's word in fellowship, encouragement, and to admonish and exhort one another in the ministry.
EZ,
LOLOL!!!!
I'm sitting on my hands.
New BBC Open Forum said...
MB wrote:
"You can play the accordian?"
Yes, and I can spell it, too -- accordion.
Oh, and I can't even attribute that to a typo. Just roared right through and misspelled accordion.
Accordion.
Accordion.
Accordion.
Accordion.
There.
"I attribute the perception to the fact that while the behavior of those with objections (reasonable or otherwise) has improved, the behavior of certain members of Bellevue's lay and paid staff has become uneven."
"Uneven"? Is that the same as "unbalanced"?
No, since "unbalanced" would refer to a psychological determination. "Uneven" refers to behavior that is not always... um... well... even.
"Which is why we need a business meeting to address these problems directly and openly."
I don't think it's going to happen. If it does, it'll be nothing more than a large-scale "communications committee" meeting where they'll trot out Harry Smith or someone else who'll answer, "I don't know" or "Who told you that?" to every question. I don't think Steve Gaines would ever agree to answer questions from the floor.
At this point, Pastor Gaines has no option.
"As I've stated previously, I've been privately inquiring into a number of issues. While many of the older topics of discussion here are still matters of taste, many of the more recent topics are not."
Interesting thing about inquiring. Often the people with the answers won't talk to just anyone. What's your common, nobody sheep to do?
Nobody is more "nobody" than I am, Nass, and I get to talk with lots of people.
"And you still owe me a nickel... "
Put it on my tab.
NASS
10:42 PM, January 02, 2007
Have you filled out a credit application? :)
--Mike
friendinjax,
Good enough for me.
"Trust, but verify." Ronald W Reagan
TS
True or False:
Noah lived long enough (after the Tower of Bable) to meet Abraham.
True or False:
The flood is referenced by 99% all religions (including Maya, Aztec, etc.)
True or False:
Linguistic/archaeological research supports the biblical Tower of Babel time line which indicates that before ~5,000 years ago there were **not** multiple written languages.
fedupatbbc said,
Pedofelia thrives in secrecy.
It is spelled Pedophilia.
gbcer said:
fedupatbbc said,
Pedofelia thrives in secrecy.
It is spelled Pedophilia.
****
Pedafelia
pedophelia
pedophilia
pedaphelia
child rapist
child molester
pervert
all the same thing, but i do thank you for the spell check :)
Pedophelia thrives in secrecy.
gbcer,
OOPS, i still misspelled it.
However, my inability to spell the word does not make it any less devasting for its victims.
fedupatbbc said...
gbcer,
OOPS, i still misspelled it.
However, my inability to spell the word does not make it any less devasting for its victims.
Reply:
AMEN, AMEN & AMEN!!!!!!!
friendinjax, according to the paper, a legal firm specializing in internal investigations cleared the church of any cover-up. You don't like those findings? However, since the DA didn't want them to talk to any of the victims, it might be hard to find people who will admit that they knew or suspected any of this 30 years ago and didn't say anything, so I'm not really sure just how "cleared" the church may be in the eyes of the victims.
Private inquiry finds no church abuse cover-up
I'd love to have a law firm come in and do some investigating at BBC, Inc., but it won't happen. We can't even get a meeting of opposing views around here.
I think my brother went to the conference in JAX last year. I'll have to ask if he's going this year.
ed_t,
A law firm investigation would be uterly useless if Bellevue were to be the ones to do the hiring, the directing and paying. You get what you pay for. It looks to me an awful lot like the church in Jax got exactly what they paid for.
Conerning the value of pastor conferences.
We need to have the
"Vince Lombardi Pastors Conference"
"Gentlemen, it's time to get back to the basics, this is a BIBLE."
My daughter sent this to me today and I wanted to share it with you.
Malachi 3:3 says: "He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver."
This verse puzzled some women in a Bible study and they wondered
what this statement meant about the character and nature of God. One
of the women offered to find out the process of refining silver and
get back to the group at their next Bible Study.
That week, the woman called a silversmith and made an appointment to watch him at work. She didn't mention anything about the reason for her interest beyond her curiosity about the process of refining silver.
As she watched the silversmith, he held a piece of silver over the
fire and let it heat up. He explained that in refining silver, one needed to hold the silver in the middle of the fire where the flames were hottest as to burn away all the impurities.
The woman thought about God holding us in such a hot spot; then she
thought again about the verse that says: "He sits as a refiner and
purifier of silver." She asked the silversmith if it was true that
he had to sit there in front of the fire the whole time the silver
was being refined.
The man answered that yes, he not only had to sit there holding the
silver, but he had to keep his eyes on the silver the entire time it
was in the fire. If the silver was left a moment too long in the
flames, it would be destroyed.
The woman was silent for a moment. Then she asked the silversmith,
"How do you know when the silver is fully refined?"
He smiled at her and answered, "Oh, that's easy -- when I see my image in it."
If today you are feeling the heat of the fire, remember that God has
his eye on you and will keep watching you until He sees His image in you.
Hangest thou in there!
Thank you Bible-in-a-year...I appreciate your work. Remember Bellevue members: there are many of us outside the church that are praying for you. Take heart and "Be still and know that I am God."
Wounded: My heart is breaking. Bless her heart. I will be praying for her.
Ed_t: Please visit this website:
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/news-article.aspx?storyid=67739
And view the video dated 10/31/06. This is an expose by TV-12 reporter Jeanie Blaylock, which includes an interview with a current pastor's wife in NC who testifies that Tom Messer knew in the early 1990's that she was molested by Bob Gray. She testifies of a meeting with Tom Messer and several other church leaders where she was intimidated to deny that Gray molested her. After you view this report, you will see the law firm's report is worthless - the church, and the pastor, covered it up plain and simple. By the way, Jeanine Blaylock who did this expose' is a member of FBC Jacksonville and a very respected member of the Jacksonville community.
I must warn you: this video describes what this monster Bob Gray did to his victims (its enough to make you vomit), and when you see this video and the overwhelming evidence that Tom Messer knew of this monster's actions and did NOTHING to stop it (thereby empowering Gray to continue!!), it will boggle your mind that Messer remains as the pastor of that church. Did PW feel empowered to molest more kids in the past 6 months after he knew that he had convinced SG to keep it quiet? I hope not. Interesting question that I hope is answered. BBC members, don't be surprised if PW was a serial molester. Steve Gaines, please view this video report about Bob Gray. Bob Gray was a BELOVED, RESPECTED, pastor in this town and NO ONE ever suspected that he would do such things. That is why I would not at all be surprised to hear PW has more victims in and out of the church.
Please Mac Brunson - say "no" to Stave Gaines until the investigation is completed at BBC. Make a statement that there are serious consequences for "mistakes" like hushing the fact that a pedophile is roaming the halls of your church.
Those of you who are supporting SG in this, I hope this information helps you see the seriousness of SG's decision to allow PW to stay on staff with no notice to the church members. Its not an overstatement at all to say that he put children at risk...these pedophiles are so deceptive and manipulative that its hard for normal people to understand. As I said, Bob Gray had most EVERYONE fooled...please, see the video.
Dear Sister Pam: Wow, what can I say? I hope that people stop and listen to what this dear lady just shared. If you want something to pray for, you just heard her pleas, much like the ones I shared from last night. Please stop posting for 30 minutes and spend that time in prayer for these hurting victims.
I know many of you mean so well when you give us Scriptures to lean on, but with victims of clergy abuse that is often the last thing they want to hear. They feel that their Lord has turned His back on them. Can't you see that? You ask them to trust. Whom do they trust? So please stop giving them all these verses of Scripture and instead SILENTLY be in serious prayer for them. Don't do it publically but privately. Please.
Sister Pam: We do have a support group for victims of clergy abuse that meet on a somewhat regular basis. Meeting other victims and knowing you are not alone and that you suffer many of the same thoughts, feelings, anger, etc is so helpful. That is one of the first steps to take from being a victim to becoming a survivor. In my case I have been able to move to being an advocate. If your friend would like to talk to me or one of our counselors, please have them contact me. you have my phone numbers. And that goes to anyone out there that is negatively affected by all of this. There is help waiting.
And lastly please rest assure as long as the Lord tarries and leaves oxygen in this old body, I will continue to speak out against the horrible crime and for the victims. And I plan to be a thorn in their sides for along time, whether it be Bellevue, the Catholic Church, the Southern Baptist Convention. Whenever there is delay or coverup, trust me I will be speaking out. Only when we have total truth and transparency will I rest.
David Brown
SNAP Coordinator for Memphis and West Tennessee
From WOUNDEDANDBLEEDING's post,
... And even worse, is that people will stand by and do nothing.
Reply:
No we actually have people, led by members of our deacon body (that should know better), that stand up and applaud and whoop it up, because they have the misguided idea that it is the pastor that needs support.
Those that choose not to participate in this lewd outburst remain unnotice because we are spread out all over the sanctuary.
Thank goodness our pastor has finally lost so much support that this will not be happening any more. As disheartening as it may be for him to realize that his support has deminished, it should have never been displayed as it was to begin with.
tim said:
Thank goodness our pastor has finally lost so much support that this will not be happening any more. As disheartening as it may be for him to realize that his support has deminished, it should have never been displayed as it was to begin with.
****
Why do you think this? NOt disagreeting with you..i just wonder what makes you think this way. What has happened that you think there will be no more yelling and clapping ? I pray you are right, becuase it is pouring salt on our wounds every time these idiots ( and that is what they are) stand and applaud a man that would callously calculate to conceal a pedophile for his own self interest.
MOM4 said...
Sister Pam,
I will continually pray for this dear young mother and ask the Lord to restore her to what HE would have her to be. This is such a devastating account and is so much like others that are being revealed. I continue to be shocked and dismayed at those who will condone the sin and wash over it with a white-wash of denial.
Please remind this dear young woman that Proverbs 28:13 will ALWAYS be true and I shall pray Joel 2:25 especially for her.
"25..And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
26..And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed."
I know this is seemingly out of context, but I heard a message by Dr Rogers back in the late 90's that applied this to the pain and suffering of imposed sin. It is a promise of God.
David Brown,
I shall pray for this young lady and all the victims as you requested. Thank you for intervening in this difficult situation.
12:44 PM, January 03, 2007
New BBC Open Forum said...
MB wrote:
"I own the copyright for the elongated spelling of "evil," so you owe me five cents. :)"
Actually, I bet Rush was saying it before you were, so I'm sure he got a copyright on it first!
That's the difference between verbalizing it and writing it.
This isn't his finest work of course, but as he has clearly and consistently demonstrated above average ability in "semantics" and "hair splitting",
I hereby nominate Mike Bratton for "Semantically Hair Splitter of the Year".
(praying silently)
Bellevue Friend,
What you did was a perfect example of what should happen to the perpertrators of these acts (and many other acts that are unbiblical). We have had at least 2 to date that I am aware of that have not been handled appropriately and I cannot fathom why? What purpose would a pastor have of concealing these acts? As a pastor, should Steve Gaines be concerned not only with the sin and the impact on the flock, but the eternal soul of the sinner?
Do you have any insight into this?
tim said:
No we actually have people, led by members of our deacon body (that should know better), that stand up and applaud and whoop it up, because they have the misguided idea that it is the pastor that needs support.
***
I'm sitting here thinking ( and that is ALWAYS dangerous) but i think that i will send a snail mail letter to the head cheerleader, John Caldwell, and include some of these anonomous letters on here from those of us who have suffered at the hands of an abuser. I will remove even the screen name of the letters on here before i sent them.. If anyone has an objection to that, please let me know by email @ fedupatbcc@yahoo.com
And then we can see if he continues to offer the pastor support by jumping up and leading the cheers.
Will be very telling won't it?
Friends, What has happened to these children is gut-wrenching and we know it is never over for them. Christians have to take the responsibility that what we do many times deeply affects others. Words DO mean something and actions tell a story. My counselor told me that "The church is the only organization that shoots its wounded." There are many ways for churches to betray believers and it is very hard to get past it. While I do not pretend that my situation is anywhere the same as those shared by fedup, praying, and this young woman, my own betrayal is still hard to reconcile. My husband of 17+ years decided to leave me and our four children one day. Reason? Known only to him. He was a deacon and leader in our SBC church. Ten days after he left, he was leading in worship at a "sister" Baptist church where we had known the leadership for years. How can this be? How can a man betray his God, his church, his family and his vows yet still be in leadership in an SBC church? While what PW did was infinitely more horrific and dangerous, we have become a people who show great mercy on the sinner and no compassion on the victims. My children have spent 7+ years trying to come to terms with the actions of their Christian dad. My daughters will always wonder if there is a man somewhere that they can trust. When the male authority figures in your life, especially your father, betray, it is very difficult to imagine a completely faithful Heavenly Father. These girls and boys that have been abused, like PW, fed up, and the others listed, have to somehow separate their earthly father from their Heavenly Father. That is a tall order. We need to be ministering to the victims first. The perpetrators certainly need forgiveness, but, as has been stated multiple times on this blog, consequences still have to be paid.
ONLYAMEMBER said...
Another financial question.....
Who paid for Steve Gaines's family to go to Gaitlinburg? I believe there were around 13 of them...son, son's wife, parents, cousins, aunt and uncle, Donna and the girls and Ryan Wingo. We were told the church did (of course, not first-hand info; just wondering if anyone knew).
I know that the adult chaperons that go have to pay their own way, so I was just curious.
8:13 PM, January 01, 2007
Just curious, has anyone heard anything else about this? There have been times my kids couldn't go because we couldn't come up with enough money for multiple children. I certainly hope the extended family paid their own way like everyone else...that wouldn't be right...but of course that's only MY opinion.
sorry...I meant victims like CW....
WELCOME
NEW
VISITORS
It has come to my attention that there may be some evolutionists and Big-Bang-Theorists here today.
I must tell you that I used to believe the same as you. In fact it was **years** after I was saved by Jesus before I put away those theories of man.
I don't want you to think of me as hostile or close-minded or uneducated or untraveled or unsophisticated or anything **un**-else.
I simply invite you to come to this forum and I will gently do my best to lead you to the conviction that I accepted (after years of considering) that:
1) There is **no** conclusive proof that either of those two theories are more than merely idle theories (fairy tales).
2) There is **no** conclusive scientific proof that the Biblical account is factually incorrect.
It really just comes down to whether you trust the word of men or the word of God.
I don't mean to cast aspersions on any of the fine people who have believed either of these two theories now, in the past, or in the future. After all, I don't blame myself for believing those two theories because it was surely not my fault that I had been taught information that was not true.
It only became my fault when I was faced with the facts for the Biblical account side by side with the non-biblical account. That was when I was in sin because there was a time after that that I continued to believe something that I was **THEN** aware was calling the Bible a lie.
Only after that point was I in sin.
Please let me know how I may serve you,
Bible-in-a-year
Ezekiel..."Ah but a gracious God he is! This being the case, How can SG or any preacher for that matter get me any closer to the Holy One than I already am? Looks like I have been misunderstanding Galatians. I really am free to worship Him, spend His money where He wants me to and love people....wow. What do I need BBC for? He gives me all I need..... even fellowship with brothers and sisters....Aint this internet wonderful!!!!!"
Hahaha...AMEN!
Joel 2:25--that verse just opens a floodgate of emotions every time I read it! I am, and will continue praying for the young woman in Sister Pam's post.
Fedupatbbc--you have e-mail
Tim,
You gotta help me out...what is a "Vince Lombardi Pastor's Conference"?
I know I am going to regret having asked this question! :(
imaresistor,
I sort of thought that only football fans would get that one. Vince Lombardi was coach of the Green Bay Packers NFL football team. He had a famous speech that he gave to his team of "professional" football players.
"Gentlemen, it is time that we get back to the basics. This is a football."
I agree with phil413--everyone should check out those videos! I'm sick to my stomach thinking of the similarities between Trinity Baptist and BBC!
libertyinchirst said...
By bringing in Focus on The Family and licensed psychologists, Gaines and Coombs are importing fortunetellers and soothsayers whose foundation is build on sorcery and evolution...both an abomination to the Lord.
Reply:
While I agree with you on most issues I am perplexed by this particular part.
Would you please explain this?
Is a pharamcist guilty of casting spells of witch craft?
Tim...
Welllll...I did know who he was. But...I did not hear the speech. Did not know about the speech. However you gave us a great analogy in using it. Brilliant analogy.
I really think we need to get away from making all these guys/gals fabulously wealthy in buying their shallow books and get back to the basics...the Bible. We could study it our entire lifetime and still not gather all the riches from it.
Lindon was right in her post yesterday about burning these books. We need to start with Rick Warren's The Purpose Driven Life...not to mention the others he has out there. We need to trash the 40 Days of Purpose, the 40 Days of Community, the 40 Days of Prayer, and the new and upcoming 40 Days of Vision in 2007. What a bonfire this would be!
Being in the Rick Warren Festival is much like playing Spiritual Simon Says. Rick says do this...Rick says do that...and his followers do it, no questions asked. Simon says...
Oh well...anyway, thanks for clearing that up for me. Things have really gotten away from the basics...you are right. I am for getting back there. Am going to clear out my basement...may need a home church. No problem for me!
Enjoy your posts Time.
Simon Says...
phil413,
I followed the link you referred to, but I can't see what it is you're referring to....just a list of stories that seem to not be church related...perhaps you could post which links are on there that pertain to what's going on?
imaresistor,
I wouldn't quite go as far as burning them myself. However, they must be tested against Scripture, the same way that the sermon of any preacher is to be tested.
What really surprised me in going thru the PDL book was the first chapter. "It's not about me." That was nothing new I had said that for years and it doesn't violate Scripture. The only problem that I see with it now is that someone needs to tell these preachers, "It's not about You, either."
Dr. Whitmire was incredibly gifted at seeing things in other churches that were Glorifying to God and bringing them to Bellevue. The banner ministry is a perfect example. I don't know what else they may or may not have done at the place where he first saw that, but his discernment was incredible.
Allofgrace,
Copy and paste this entire link into your web browser, and you will have a story on "Did Trinity Cover Up Abuse Scandal?". Be sure to copy the entire two lines of code below:
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/news-article.aspx?storyid=67739
What you have to remember is that the long url's that you post here don't always show the whole url..that's why it's best to create a link. I did a search on the site and can't find the story.
If you're going to post a long url, then split it between two lines of text.
Tim...
I haven't burned mine either and I have a lot of books. I hold on to them for reference. And boy do I reference!
Guess you also noted that on that first page was a quote by an atheist. My first thought was, "Why would he be quoting an atheist?" I thought those not saved might not understand that...and then I though to myself that I didn't understand it myself and I AM saved.
I saw a lot wrong with it and finally put it down. I thought to myself that I was not going to waste time on it. I could be spending time in THE WORD instead. I took note that he maneuvered different scriptures and paraphrases to coordinate with what he wanted to say.
You are right in that these things need to be tested against the scripture and I spend a lot of time doing just that. It is our duty as a Christian.
Thanks...
tim,
There are links to videos at the top of the page...
TS
Will someone explain the ref. to Focus on the Family, please?
I am clueless on the situation
:o(
Here are the links. Unbelievable! You must see these!
10/31/2006 11pm report
11/1/2006 6pm report
11/1/2006 11pm report
I finally googled it and found the videos...unbelievable to say the least...what is happening in Christ's church?...are we more interested in the rep of the local church than what is right? God help us.
Did anyone read the post I put on 1/2/07, you could just collapse the comments and find my post real easy, it is a long one thought but it answers some questions some of you have asking
Tim said....
"Dr. Whitmire was incredibly gifted at seeing things in other churches that were Glorifying to God and bringing them to Bellevue. The banner ministry is a perfect example. I don't know what else they may or may not have done at the place where he first saw that, but his discernment was incredible."
If you or anyone else ever gets a chance to visit with Paula Greene with the Banner Ministry (make an appointment for a tour with a group) - she has a wonderful knowledge of the history and can tell you the far reaching effects of this ministry! It is incredible!!
www.JesusDotCalm said...
Will someone explain the ref. to Focus on the Family, please?
I am clueless on the situation
:o(
Best thing is to go to the horses' mouth. This is James Sundquist, author of Who Is Driving the Purpose Driven Church and The PEACE PLAN vs. Rick Warren's Teachings' own website. He can explain it to you well.
RockSalt [rock.salt@verizon.net]
You do know, of course, that the Bible is explicit against psychology of course, don't you? And you do know that James Dobson is a psychologist? That is a good starter.
noname said...
"Did anyone read the post I put on 1/2/07, you could just collapse the comments and find my post real easy, it is a long one thought but it answers some questions some of you have asking"
I did and didn't. Why don't you just repost it. Copy and paste. I am interested in what you are saying. And I am sure others are too.
imaresistor said....
You do know, of course, that the Bible is explicit against psychology of course, don't you? And you do know that James Dobson is a psychologist? That is a good starter.
Reply:
First question...No I have never seen a passage of Scripture to that effect.
Psychology "does not equal" sorcery.
Psychology "does not equal" soothsayers.
Second question...Yes I was aware that James Dobson is a psychologist.
It will take some work to equate these things. Someone posted a link to a big load of stuff against Dr. Dobson. One of them had little to say other than that he and Focus on the Family were politically active (big deal). They should be. We need to have some organizations politically active that stand for truth.
The questions posed by "closetotheinnercircle" in the previous thread should garner a lot of attention.
Ok Imaresistor
This is it:
Just thought this will be good info you all:
Articles: Peacemaking in the Church
A Better Way to Handle Abuse
by Ken Sande, President of Peacemaker Ministries
Sexual Abuse in the church does not have to end in broken lives, agonizing lawsuits, and divided congregations. When people follow God's ways and words, these terrible incidents can result in healing, justice, and healthier churches.
When victims of abuse first come forward, I have found that most of them are seeking four reasonable responses. First, they are looking for understanding, compassion, and emotional support. Second, they want the church to admit that the abuse occurred and to acknowledge that it was wrong. Third, they want people to take steps to protect others from similar harm. And fourth, they expect compensation for the expense of needed counseling.
As national headlines reveal, many churches have unwisely ignored these legitimate needs.
Instead, like many other institutions, they have blindly followed their lawyers' and insurance adjusters' textbook strategy to avoid legal liability.
They try to cover up the offense and deny responsibility. All too often they distance themselves from the victims and their families, leaving them feeling betrayed and abandoned.
Many frustrated victims eventually talk to a lawyer who tells them they could win a million-dollar damages award. Soon everyone is locked in an adversarial process that reopens wounds and generates even more pain and anger. Whatever the verdict, both sides lose, since money alone can never heal the wounds of abuse.
There is a better way.
God is a redeemer and a problem-solver. He has designed a powerful peacemaking strategy for dealing with offenses between people, including sexual abuse. When churches follow it, as I will show later, the cycle of abuse is broken and restoration can begin.
Compassion – If there is one place that victims of abuse should find understanding, compassion, and support, it is among people whom God commands to respond to suffering with tenderness and selfless love: "Be kind and compassionate to one another.... Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit.... Each of you should look not only to your own interests but also to the interests of others" (Eph. 4:31; Phil. 2:3-4). Instead of pulling away from victims, churches should draw closer to them, listening to their stories, mourning with and praying for them, and bearing their burdens. Responding with love and compassion is one of the best ways to show that the church abhors abuse and is committed to serving those who are suffering.
Confession – Attorneys instinctively instruct their clients to "make no admissions." Hundreds of churches have followed this shortsighted counsel in recent years, prolonging the agony of abuse victims, infuriating juries, and triggering multimillion-dollar punitive damages awards.
In contrast, everyone benefits when people trust God's promise that "He who conceals his sins does not prosper, but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy" (Prov. 28:13). When abuse has occurred, a church should express sorrow and acknowledge its contribution to the situation. It should also counsel the abuser to confess his sin, take responsibility for his actions, and seek needed counseling.
These steps can prevent a court battle and speed healing for victim and offender alike. (Since an impulsive admission could allow an insurer to cancel coverage, church leaders should consult with their insurer, lawyer, and a Christian conciliator to plan their words carefully.)
Compensation for Counseling – The Bible places a strong emphasis on requiring a wrongdoer to repair any damage he has caused to another person. "Pay the injured man for the loss of his time and see that he is completely healed" (Ex. 21:19). Therefore, churches should be earnest to do whatever they can to bring wholeness to victims of abuse. As soon as abuse is revealed, the church should immediately come to the aid of the victim and his family, holding forth the redeeming power of Jesus and offering to provide or pay for needed counseling.
Change – When abuse takes place, statements of regret are not enough. Genuine repentance is demonstrated by making changes to protect others from similar harm. "Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.... Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked" (Luke 3:8; Ps. 82:4). This requires immediately removing the abuser from his position, involving legal authorities as needed or required by law, and implementing screening and supervision procedures to prevent other abusive people from being in counseling or child-care positions.
Such actions not only protect others from harm but also relieve abuse victims, who are deeply concerned that others not be treated as they were.
Conciliation – It may be difficult for a church to implement these steps if a victim's family is already threatening legal action or an insurer refuses to support personal contacts. These situations can still be resolved without a legal battle, however, by submitting the matter to biblical mediation or arbitration. "If you have disputes, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church" (1 Cor. 6:4). Christian conciliation by outside neutrals can provide a constructive forum to deal with both the spiritual and legal issues related to abuse.
This legally enforceable process provides appropriate confidentiality and promotes confession and restitution, which help to bring about justice and reconciliation.
These five steps are not theoretical. I have seen many churches follow this process, usually with great success.
In one case, a pastor discovered that a man had abused several children in the church, including the pastor's daughter. In the midst of his own personal anguish, the pastor prayed to respond to the situation in a way that would reflect the love of Jesus. After consulting with a Christian conciliator and the church's insurer, the pastor and his elders set out to minister to everyone who had been hurt by this dreadful sin.
They persuaded the abuser to confess his sin to the families of the children and to turn himself in to the police. He willingly accepted his prison sentence, and was even grateful that his destructive behavior had finally been stopped.
The leaders spent many hours with the families themselves, grieving and praying with them, and making sure they received needed support and counseling. In addition, the leaders improved their screening and supervision policies to guard against similar incidents in the future.
They also reached out to the abuser's wife and children, who were so ashamed that they planned to leave the church. But the leaders understood what being a shepherd is all about. They ministered to this broken family, reassured them of God's love, and kept them in the fold.
Instead of being dragged through an excruciating lawsuit, the victims and their families, the abuser and his family, and the entire congregation experienced the redeeming power of God. This remarkable process culminated months later during a Christmas Eve service.
As the church prepared to sing "Silent Night," two young girls came forward to light the candles. One of them had been abused. The other was the daughter of the abuser. As they finished their task and smiled at each other, the congregation saw tangible evidence of God's love and grace.
Abuse in the church does not have to end with catastrophe. When a church follows its Lord, even this great tragedy can result in healing and restoration.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ken Sande is an attorney, the author of The Peacemaker: A Biblical Guide to Resolving Personal Conflict (Baker Books, 3rd Ed. 2003), Peacemaking for Families (Tyndale, 2002), and president of Peacemaker Ministries (www.Peacemaker.net), an international ministry committed to equipping and assisting Christians and their churches to respond to conflict biblically.
This article in its entirety may be photocopied, re-transmitted by electronic mail, or reproduced in newsletters, on the World Wide Web, or in other print media, provided that such copying, re-transmission, or other use is not for profit or other commercial purpose. Any distribution or use of this article must set forth the following credit line, in full, at the conclusion of the article: "© 2005 Peacemaker® Ministries, www.Peacemaker.net. Reprinted with permission." Peacemaker Ministries may withdraw or modify this grant of permission at any time.
Conflicts Involving the Pastor...
...If you have additional questions concerning the church conflict intervention services available from Peacemaker Ministries, be sure to call (406) 256-1583 to speak with a consultant.
I believe, any of you BBC can call her, do not worry that you are just a member she will instruct you on what you should do. One of you please just get the ball rolling, I do not think BBC will refuse help if they call them.
Maybe even one of you are on staff at BBC who read this, and so you call, and let us know. I believe the L-RD will use Peacemaker Ministries if only BBC will agree. Somebody, anybody (BBC member) please try.
allofgrace,
I went back thru a few of those questions myself. It would seem that "internal investigations" in relation to the JAX story are designed to control information more than release information. It seems that "internal investigations" as far as Bellevue is concerned might be accomplishing the same thing.
I do not like to think of all that is not being done at BBC to protect children, I know I get angry, I watched one of the videos too about the sexual abuse at the Trinity church, I hate that too. Oh if I could talk to those in authority at BBC, I will... what is wrong with those people in authority at BCC, I know.
Tim said...
imaresistor said....
"You do know, of course, that the Bible is explicit against psychology of course, don't you? And you do know that James Dobson is a psychologist? That is a good starter."
I am not one to debate/argue...not my piece of cake. Am off to church right now, but when I return I will point this scripture out to you if I can find it again. It is in there...I have definitely read it.
Peace......
Truthsleuth - its very eery the similarities between the Trinity and BBC situations. Notice that at Trinity the original revelation was not labeled "sin" on the part of the pastor, it was labeled "inappropriate behavior" back in the 1990s and dismissed. Even TODAY, the church and its legal team says there was no cover up....the three videos show this to be a lie....yet the people at Trinity are SO BLIND that they leave Tom Messer in as the pastor even though he is responsible for the pedophile being on the loose, molesting children at his own church, and likely many others in Germany where they sent him to be a missionary.
I believe one of the important lessons from the Trinity case for BBC is this:
Be very wary of the leadership doing their own internal investigation of this. You should not trust SG's inner circle to reveal all the facts, just as Messer's "close inner circle" didn't come clean with the congregation back in the 90s.
In Tom Messers defense, the pedophile never came to him and confessed his pedophile ways as PW apparently did to SG. I would hope that if Tom Messer were told by Bob Gray that he had molested the kids Messer would have reported this to the police. Why did SG not have the presence of mind to IMMEDIATELY contact the police and alert the church membership that a pedophile has been on church staff? God only knows why...and we can only hope and pray that there are not more victims - especially during the 6 month delay.
Colossians:
I don't see an email from you :(
Did you send it to fedupatbbc@yahoo.com?
RE: The bible is against Psychologists.
I don't know who posted this. I don't care.
UNLESS you have lived thru a tramatic situation in your life, like, say...umm, rape...You don't have any idea how a Christian Psychologist saved my life.
How nice that life is so cushy that you would never need the services of a psychologist. I wish mine had been that way.
**DISCLAIMER - BEWARE**
On my 3:38 post are links to the Bob Gray/Trinity Baptist problem. Be aware that these are very explicit videos from the 11 oçlock news. You do not want your kids around when you view/listen.
TS
Folks, debating psychologists and psychology isn't going to be productive..everybody has an opinion or experience about it, but debating it won't get us anywhere on these issues.
AOG
I've said my piece on it. I won't comment further. :)
allofgrace said...
The questions posed by "closetotheinnercircle" in the previous thread should garner a lot of attention.
Perhaps NASS will start a new thread with them???
allofgrace,
I want to understand how psychology is satanic. Debate or no debate. If it is then perhaps there is a problem with Focus on the Family being involved. If it is not then they probably should be involved. Dr. Dobson has been a great friend to our family (Bellevue) for many years.
Psychology debate aside, how, exactly, is FOF going to be involved at BBC? I don't understand what their role is in this.
fedupatbbc,
Good question.
That is why I am wanting to understand what the Biblical stand is. If my views have been wrong, I want to know about it. The first time I had ever heard anyone say that there was something unBiblical about psychology was on this blog.
Dear Noname: I just read your post about "peacemakers." Please let me urge you to do some homework. Just google " Baptist Sexual Abuse" and then get back to me. Will you please? When you do I think you will find that this "peacemaker" would have plenty of work to do. What do you think? I wish a peacemaker would work but if the leadership was truthful we wouldn't need one.
Most clergy abuse victims when they come forward DO NOT want anything to do with God or God's people. Those are facts that come from victims. I am one of them. I had a victim once tell me this when he first met me: "I can tell my the smile on your face you are one God's people and I do not want anything to do with you or your God." I have heard that too many times from victims. When we as Christians want to help we mean well but.
It does take victims time to heal. I somewhat agree with you on the 4 assumptions about victims but most don't want ANYTHING but the TRUTH from their church or offender. And they want to know why. Yes counseling is important but I have yet to meet a victim that came seeking that. They want answers first.
Yes they need compassion and love but for God's sake don't beat them over the head with the Bible. Give them time to hurt. They certainly have earned it. It is ok to be angry too. You can tell I am still angry in some of my writing. Of course love them, but let them hurt, be angry and cry. Our Lord Jesus got angry, wept and hurt; so I guess it is ok for victims to feel the same way. It does help in the healing process.
But you know what gets me really angry? When I hear from a pastor that he knew of this situation for over 6 months and did not do one thing but remain silent. You want to know what I think he should do? You really don't even have to ask. He has used any creditability he might have had with me up. And when I ask for a meeting with him I have to rely on some blogger to tell him he better have someone contact me. And when this "offical" spokesperson contacted me he gave me information that was not accurate. It makes one wonder who is running the ship. There are NO good reasons to have not dealt with it when he first became aware. NONE!! OUR CHILDREN DESERVE BETTER.
I am tired of these pious religious leaders when they get caught asking for forgiveness and saying they are sorry they made a mistake and then try to deflect it. I guess I have been dealing with the Catholic Church too long but when my own home church does it, I want to scream from the highest rafters. WHY?
If you did a poll of the victims that have posted their stories on here and asked them what was the ONE thing they wanted, guess what the answer would be? TRUTH, nothing but the truth. And dare nor color it with a bunch of excuses.
When my story was publish in Nashville in 2005, I was all over the news there and nationally. I had to sit down with two of my grandchilren and explain to them why their grandfather was crying on TV that morning at the press conference. In some ways they are more grown up than many that post on here. I wish I could share with you what my oldest grandson told me. See he is only two years younger than I was when I was first abused. Now you understand why I fight so hard for the truth.
These are dark days we live in. Folks dig your head out of the sand. This issue of pedophila is out there and it very ugly and now it has come home to Bellevue. It is not going away. Please demand nothing less from our leadership but the truth and if they try to color it or make excues then stand up demand accountability, get angry. Let them know this is not acceptable. Let your voice be heard along with your prayers.
NO WE DON'T NEED A 'PEACEMAKER', WE NEED THE TRUTH.
I too am sorry for the long post but over the last few days, even my inner being has been hurt by these heart wrenching stories of abuse. I love you all.
Please let's all be in prayer.
David Brown
My heart hurts for you. You are in my prayers.
To the others that don't understand pedophilia: Do you see this man, at 60 years old, STILL suffering from the effects of abuse?
And yet you would continue to applaud a man who would put your OWN babies at risk????? Do you want them to be wounded like this for the rest of their life?
David is not an isolated case in terms of the pain that never goes away. That is THE only response that can come from sexual abuse.
Your applaud and praise are entirely inappropriate and unbiblical.
Get your head out of the sand and stop applauding and instead, get your pitchforks and head for the platform and run that false prophet out of town on a rail!
Do I have to take you by the shoulders and shake you?????
The next time you stand to cheer and applaud this man, you ask yourself if you wouuld be applauding him if it were YOUR child that was abused by the man he chose to protect instead of your child.
Sheesh!!!
How does Focus on the Family`s Dr. Dobson support Dr.Spradlin`s stand on Steve Gaines stepping down while aiding and couseling Steve Gaines at the same time?
DEAR IM A...
THANK YOU FOR YOUr POST, HOWEVER, I WAS ASKING ABOUT FOF BEING INVOLVED At BBC.
EXAMPLE: WHO BROUGHT THEM IN? WHAT ARE THEY DOING, ETC.
Dr. Dobson is counseling SG? I'm disappointed that he would be pulled into SG's web of manipulation. Let SG resign and then he can get counsled by Dobson all day long.
My guess is that if he were to resign, or be forced to resign, he would not need the services of Dr. Dobson.
This is all smoke and mirrors, folks. I'm writing Dr. Dobson a letter right now.
Does Bellevue financially support FOF?
Follow the money.
Hey fedup...
I checked my "sent" folder, and my e-mail to you is there--I re-sent it to you just now, 5:39 p.m. Let me know if you still don't get it. Maybe I'm having a problem with Outlook Express that I'm unaware of.
Thanks!
mom4, are you a BBC employee?
Coll,
I don't have it :(
I need to tell you something.
Boy, I need to clear some things up!
1. I did not burn the books. (This statement gave me visions of some low level Nazi feldgrabel in 1939...:o)
I had about 12 boxes of 'Christian' books that I took to a friend who owns a business and has a dumpster I could use. (It is hard to get rid of so many books!)
2. LibertyinChrist brings up some very good points. I fear I did not communicate well at all. I thought we were talking soley of a member (not the victim) suing the church or the pastor and leaders. BTW: You can sue a 501c3. But, I have to warn you that churches do not fall under any DOL laws. They can pretty much do what they want as far as hiring/firing/files/pay, etc. so the suit would probably be limited to actions outside any labor laws.
My point in the comment was that Paul Williams and pastor Gaines may have violated state laws and the state would file charges if they were reported and investigated.
I have been involved in lawsuits over business dealings with greedy partners so my hands are not clean here. My brother, elder for 20 years, is also involved in a business lawsuit right now that pertains to embezellment in his company. So, I agree this does not pertain to every situation.
Liberty, I am sorry my comments were not clear. And, you do have a sticky but good point about whether they are 'Christians' or not based on their actions. Bottom line is that PW and Pastor Gaines broke the law and the state should dealing with this. Anyone, who has ever had an 'interview' with PW is a potential victim of his abuse based on the interview questions. (not to the extent of the victim but I hope you get my point) It is information that could very well be used in an investigation by the state. (hint hint)
If a member (not the victims!) decided to file a lawsuit against the pastor, deacons, church, PW or whomever, it could backfire bigtime. I think you would actually see an outpouring of support for the pastor in that case and probably the withdrawal of support from others. Just stating what I have seen happen.
I saw a person horribly victimized my former church. (not sexual) She did not file a lawsuit but hired an attorney to write a letter to the elders about the situation. The result was most of the elders lambasting her for hiring an attorney.(That reeked of threat of lawsuit they thought) Her valid points were lost and the only thing anyone remembers about her is that she 'hired an attorney' and violated 1 Corinthians 6.
The sin she was trying to communicate to the leaders is still continuing today. Something to think about anyway.
That may sound like I am changing my stance to pragmatism instead of scripture but I am really not. I have seen the fallout. There is an avenue for the state to step in here as plaintiff over the criminal acts. Why not use that avenue since governments were instituted by God for just this purpose?
This may even be something you guys want to contact the state AG about. Ask them what your rights are concerning your children being unprotected from a pedophile during those 6 months. And about the interviews PW conducted.
Fedup--
I'm not sure what's up. My husband should be home soon--He's the one around here who actually understands all this computer stuff! :) I'll have him check it out. In the mean time, try e-mailing me. I'll let you know when I receive your mail.
Thanks!
The day after Dr. Spradlin`s words appeared in the Commerical Appeal, one of the speakers at Bellevue metioned that Focus on the Family was one of the outside sources being used.
Did anyone else hear this?
I believe more than anything, we just need the pure word of God brought into this situation and applied...that's the reason we're where we are now...that hasn't been done...everything else under the sun..but not the one thing that needs to be done. God is our source and resource, and He has not abandoned us to our own imaginations...if we truly believe that the Bible is the only infallible rule of faith and practice, then that's what we need.
AOL--
AMEN!!!!!
Has any progress been made in determining the racial slurs and prejudice incidents at Bellevue?
Neverputyourfaithinmen don`t you think it`s time to come forward with the names of those ministers who are verbally abusing others?
I do.
What`s being done about the adulterous chairman of the board at BBC? Are there any updates?
Have any other victims come forward ????
OOPS! I meant AOG! :-)
fedup--I got your e-mail. I have sent a reply @ 6:07 p.m. I hope you receive this one.
Has any progress been made towards having a business meeting at BBC?
Questions forgotten:
1. John Caldwell has been the Chairman of the Dacon Selection Committee over 8 years, WHY?
2. Why will John Caldwell not apologize to Mark Sharpe for jumping the fence and tresspassing into his neighborhood?
3. Why is John Caldwell allowed to serve as a Deacon with such a hard heart that will not allow him to ask for forgivness?
The DA`s office says they are still working on the Gaines case of not reporting a sex crime being perpetrated on a child.
It might be a good idea for the DA to get some letters from us.
I have a feeling that SG and the bad boys of Bellevue are looking for every polical favor they can find.
Remember BBC has helped many a politician to get elected.
I called the Dept Of Human Services today @ 947-8800.This area of the DHS investigates the childrens cases.
The lady that answered the phone acted like she knew nothing about the "Belleue" investigation. She stated she could not comment on anything or she could be sued. She could only comment to an attorney.
Question...
How do we know for sure that an investigation is really now ongoing?
Why not everyone call the Church and ask what the latest is on the investigation?
With the current enviroment we have at church and with the curent leadership, we must continue asking questions.
OOPS
to im a...
i just read over the blog and saw I had used all caps when posting back to you ;-o
I was not yelling just typing with caps lock on....by mistake
soooooo sorry folks!
Dear Mission: You called the wrong folks. DHS has nothing to do with this. The Department of Child Services out of Nashville is handling the investigation. I was the one that reported when I first learned of it. I recevied a phone call from the Memphis field investigator that same day late in the morning. I have his number. Both cell and office. TRUST me DCS is on top of this. They will not tell anyone the outcome of their investigation. Only the DA will get that report. But you can rest assured there is an "official" investigation going on, not just some "internal" CYA thing. I am very cynical of these internal review boards, personnel committees because they are often just fronts for the Bishops and Pastor.
As it has been asked by not only me but the DA if anyone has any information contact the legal authorities first then you take it to the "internal" buddies.
I do have faith in our local Asst. DA, Kevin Rardin.
I hope this answers the question of who to call.
David Brown
SNAP coordinator for West Tennessee and Memphis
David Brown,
Thanks for the information. Why is this not being out of the Memphis office?
Does the childrens services fall under the umbrella of the Dept. Of Human Services?
How does this process work? I mean does the DA work in conjunction with the DHS?
Who makes the ofical calls in in type of scenerio?
David,
Someone asked me if I knew of any legal pro-bono help for the victims of PW?
Are there any legal resources available through the STATE that the victims need to be aware of?
A word about psychology...
Psychology is literally the study of the mind. There is nothing inherently Biblical OR unbiblical about that. There is much to be learned about the way we think and act from psychology. There is also a lot of weird, goofy stuff in psychology. As with anything, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. You can study the mind and be a Biblical Christian at the same time. That doesn't mean that the psychologist dismisses the inerrancy or power of God's Word, or that the psychologist feels God's Word is inadequate, in and of itself.
It's like saying chemistry is not Biblical - avoid it at all costs. This makes no sense. Don't be afraid of the mind - God created our minds, and they are very intricate and complex.
Ok, thanks for listening.
Father in Heaven,
My prayer to you is that every living soul will agree with the wish expressed below. No matter what situation a person may find themselves in & no matter upon which continent they live or in which century.
In Jesus's name,
AMEN.
allofgrace said...
I believe more than anything, we just need the pure word of God brought into this situation and applied...that's the reason we're where we are now...that hasn't been done...everything else under the sun..but not the one thing that needs to be done. God is our source and resource, and He has not abandoned us to our own imaginations...if we truly believe that the Bible is the only infallible rule of faith and practice, then that's what we need.
5:51 PM, January 03, 2007
Dear Mission: The Department of Child Protective Services (DCS) is the proper agency to report suspected abuse. They have an 800 number hotline. When I first reported this it was about this time last month I did not have a name. I was contacted by the Memphis office investigator and I was told that Nashville had put the highest priority on this. Once I knew the name of the suspected abuser, I called him back.
The reason I called DCS was on the direct advice of Kevin Rardin. I made an inquiry how to report this. He has confirmed this in several interviews he has given.
I do want to address a comment made by one blogger. I hope you weren't serious. But I am about to embarass you. Sorry. I do hope you were speaking in jest. Bellevue is not that big. The asst D.A. does not need your votes. I am appalled that anyone would be that stupid to suggest it. I AM ANGRY. I demand you make a public apology to the D.A.'s office. Kevin has been the lead in taking on these kinds of cases. He has worked tirelessly without any reward. He just does his job. He is a hero in my eyes. Kevin has taken on the cause for the victims for many years. His track record speaks for itself.
And they do not need you sending them letters, emails or phone calls urging them on. They are the professionals in this. PLEASE LET THEM DO THEIR JOB.
You will know just as soon as I do if any criminal charges are going to be made. And that is when you hear about it on the news. Kevin does not share anythhing with me. And I would not ask him.
Please be in prayer for the DCS investigator and the asst. D.A. Just don't bother them unless you have information. Please
And to answer the question about pro-bono attorneys that would help the vicitms, who wants to sue?
Please go back and take the time to read my previous posts about victims and what they seek. The last thing they want is an attorney.
Tust me on that one.
David,
Thanks again for the insight. Just wondering why this is not being handled out of the Memphis office?
Dear Mission: IT IS BEING HANDLED OUT OF THE MEMPHIS OFFICE!!!!
Please go back and check my posts on this. But they do have to report to Nashville. What is wrong with that. It is certainly far better than some review board or personnel committee.
Please call Kevin Rardin's office and ask them the procedures.
You can check the sex offender registry for all states at CriminalCheck.com.
David,
Thanks again and sorry to upset you with our questions. We just don't have the time to go back and read hours worth of blogs.
We will defer our quetions to others at this time. We also will be praying for you and your efforts at this time.
Dear Mission: you are not upseting me. I thought I had made it clear who was directing this investigation.
On my profile is my email address as well as my phone number. Please feel free to contact me anytime. And some of you have asked me if I am available to speak to groups, I certainly am. Just contact me. I have even spoken from the pulpit in some churches about this evil. All you have to do is contact me.
David,
Thanks and please do not assume that everyone has followed and read this blog each and every day. Because that is just not so.
I would like to draw everyone's attention to another similarity between the Trinity Baptist pedophile scandal and the BBC scandal.
If you watch the videos that are hyperlinked in truthsleuth's post today (the first 6:00 pm news video) you will see the testimony of a grown woman who was molested by Bob Gray when she was a little girl; today she is a pastor's wife in NC.
One of the most hurtful parts of her ordeal was the coverup of her allegations, and she specifically mentioned how the standing ovations given to her pastor right after the allegations were swept under the rug that were extremely hurtful. She wondered how could these people that she trusted and loved her whole life stand and give a standing ovation for the men responsible for her hurt.
I would ask the BBC'ers: how can you give a standing ovation to a pastor who harbored a pedophile for 6 months without telling the congregation...at least wait until the DA completes his investigation before you give him any more standing O's.
I really don't want to see SG getting standing ovations at the FBC Jax Pastor's Conference next month...please Mac Brunson, do the right thing and replace SG on the speaking schedule...please readers of this blog...drop Mac Brunson a line asking him to reconsider having SG as a keynote speaker...his email address is pastor@fbcjax.com
Coll,
I just emailed you :)
friendinjax
I have emailed him twice.
Please everyone, send him an email!!!
DCS is a State office and therefore the central offices are located in Nashville, with regional offices throughout the state. All reports of abuse go to a central intake located in Nashville and then cases are assigned to investigators in the appropriate region. In cases of sex abuse, Memphis has special teams that deal specifically with sex abuse and they have police detectives that are housed in their offices. They work closely with both the police and the DA, when warranted. The normal time frame for an investigation is 60-90 days, so in a case involving this many people and information spanning over a decade, it will probably take a few months to complete the investigation. DCS policy generally does not allow for public comments to be made regarding an investigation, but in high profile cases they have been known to release statements through the PR director in Nashville. If you have specific information about the abuse please call and report immediately to the hotline; otherwise, I would recommend that you direct all letters and calls of concern to the DA's office, as DCS cannot really do anything with this info unless it contains information regarding abuse. DCS handles high profile cases on a regular basis, so they can handle any "political pressure" you might perceive. I agree with Dave Brown's perceptions that the status of Bellevue will not sway the government officials involved. Child abuse is child abuse at DCS and they see it everyday from every walk of life imaginable. Unfortunately, this is just one of hundreds of sex abuse cases being investigated in Memphis and most of the public never have any idea exactly how prevalent the problem is in our community.
I think the general public also likes to believe this is something that only happens in certain "classes" of families, but the truth is that it happens in all types of families -upper, middle, low income- and statistics indicate it is the same in the "Christian" community as anywhere else. In a church the size of Bellevue, I promise you there are other perps in your pews and victims that will never come forward, especially in light of how the church (all churches, not just BBC) has responded. We should see specific classes offered at seminaries, Christian Schools, and pastor's conferences that teach how to handle abuse situations, proper reporting procedures, and how to best support victims. To my knowledge, this exists in little to now form at this time in the SBC and the excuse that our churches are autonomous is ridiculous. We can work cooperatively to support one of the most well known, successful mission programs in the world, but we cannot work together to protect the children in our churches. In the year 2007, ignorance is no excuse in these matters.
Friend,
That was a very needed post with facts that I believe help us understand a little more. You might want to blog that every now and then for the ones just coming on the blog.
So what is a child to do? Who provides them a safe place after they have told of the abuse? How will they be protected from the perpetrator while the investigation is ongoing? Do we have a place now for them and we just aren't aware of it? I know Memphis Union Mission has Moriah House, but isn't that for abused wives (and their children)? Or does child services place the child(ren) in foster homes? I've heard horror stories about that also! So what is the answer? What can we do for these children?
David Brown, I thank God for you!!
Thanks for posting the email address. I am going to email and thank Mac Brunson and thank him for his support of Dr. Gaines.
Here is the website for DCS. It has the hotline # and other info that might be useful.
Here
I know this is off topic, but I would suggest that you check out the info on foster care and adoption. We are mandated in the Bible to care for widows and orphans. We no longer have orphanages, but we still have "orphans" in the form of foster children, some of whom need to be adopted. The church needs to step up to the plate on this issue as well. Just some food for thought.
Iflyaway,
More often than not, the family of the perp turns on the child..they dont' believe the child..well, they probly beleive it but in such a dysfunctinal situation, the child is still blamed for bringing the situation to light.
In my case, My grandmother told me to just stay away from my stepfather..which, of course was impossible to do, since i was just a child, and he had total authority over me. Of course, tho, in my child's mind, it made it feel like it was my fault becuase i was unable to stay away from him.
I was once sent away by my mother to live with a family friend becuase she was so mad at ME. He had convinced her that i had enticed him.
I am not PERSONALLY aware of a situation where anyone that i knew who was abused was put in foster care. Of course, that was THEN...no one really knew how to report it at that time. Mostly, WE were the ones blamed and told to shut up.
I was sent to a psychiatrist, ( NOT a christian one) who further abused me by asking me lewd questions about it, which makes it even worse that I had to bare my soul to Paul Williams.
Things may be differnt now, as far as foster care for children...People ( except for the ones that sit in the seats at BBC) have been made more aware of this awful crime, and are more educated as to how to report it than they were 40 years ago.
4545,
You know what? I think there is something SERIOUSLY wrong with you.
You need help.
4545 must be SG..who else in their right mind but SG would be so vehemently defensive of him?
More hate filled attacks. That did not take long from this great "Christian" blog.
missionimpossible,
If you hit the control button and then the f key you can search for David Brown or anyone else's posts. It has been very helpful for me. That way you can go back several days and look for anyone's posts that you wish!
Diana
If DCS has reason to believe a child is in immediate danger of abuse, then yes, they can obtain a Court order to remove them and have them placed in foster care. They may also place the child with a relative or family friend, if they are sure that relative will be protective of the child. Foster care is not a perfect system, and there is generally a shortage on available homes. The best way to help is for more Christians to step up and become foster parents. Not something that is for everyone, b/c these children have many scars, both physical and emotional, but that should not be a major deterrent for Christians. As I said, I believe we are mandated to take part in caring for these children.
I guess you have not been to church in a while. There are thousands in support of Dr. Gaines.
4545 said...
Thanks for posting the email address. I am going to email and thank Mac Brunson and thank him for his support of Dr. Gaines.
8:39 PM, January 03, 2007
4545,
After reading all these letters from abuse victims and how the coverup of the crimes against them has caused immeasureble pain that has endured over the years. Please tell us why you not bothered that SG aided and enabled Paul Williams by his six months of silence,and if the coverup does bother you why do you still support SG?Do you beieve that SG acted in the best intrest of the children of BBC?Is you heart so hardened in support of SG that you don't care about the danger he placed helpless children in? These are serious questions please help me to understand why you are so loyal to SG
David Brown,
I am sorry for your hurt and other victims who suffer from being molested or other sexual crimes or even other crimes of hate. I hate it when people hurt children or anyone. I love to protect hurting people.
But if you would read the last 5 paragraphs above the dotted line you would read a story of a young girl who suffred being molested and found healing.
Personally I Really do not care for Paul Williams. They all don't care. and they all need to repent of doing nothing or maybe something we don't even know yet.
You should collapse the comments and read my other short comment.
I have said 1000 times, wait until all the facts come out.
4545,
It's pretty evident to anyone casually reading this blog that you delight in "putting out a fleece" to see whose chain you can yank, then unloading on them, directly or indirectly, in an ad hominem attack. What do think is God's opinion of that sort of behavior?
There are plenty of folks on this blog with opinions like yours who can conduct themselves like ladies and gentlemen. You would do well to follow their example.
For the rest of us, how does the saying go? "Don't feed the trolls?"
TS
shaking head that someone would be so ignorant as to think that there would EVER be a reason to keep a pedophile on staff, around children, in secrecy for 6 months.
My friend was telling me that she was looking over some CD's from Bible DRill awards from last summer, and there was PW, on stage, shaking hands with her 14 y/o son!!!
How CREEPY is THAT?
FACT:
SG was allowing him to be around children.
PEDOPHILIA THRIVES IN SECRECY
More hate and personal attacks.
fedupatbbc said...
4545 must be SG..who else in their right mind but SG would be so vehemently defensive of him?
8:58 PM, January 03, 2007
fedup i now belive that 4545 has a hardened heart with NO compassion for the victims and overflowing sympathy for SG who kept the molester hidden.4545,and ace are two of the three little monkeys(hear no evil,speak no evil,see no evil)when refering to SG
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
Psalm 2:1-3 (KJV)
nthepew- You sure like to make up things and put words in people's mouths!! You have done it to me several times and to Ace as well. You are guilty of misleading.
fedupatbbc,
I sent you an email.
4545 said...
More hate and personal attacks.
4545
hate is a little tired from being used so often. He suggests you use his friend "intolerant" for a while so he can catch his breath
4545:
Will you STILL support SG if it turns out in the 6 month period after he knew of PW's pedophilia that he molested kids?
Are you coming down to Jax to give SG a standing ovation in February? I'll be the one sitting on my hands.
I know, I know...."wait until the facts are out".
4545 said...
I guess you have not been to church in a while. There are thousands in support of Dr. Gaines.
I agree there are thousands of ignorant people who have been told not to read anything, ask anything or watch anything (Reminds me of the Japanese statue, the "Three Wise Monkeys")
Things will change sooner than later, and we don't have to wait on SG and you to spin evidence, we have some of the truth and we will have the rest of it as soon as the Lord reveals it, and HE will.
By the way the "Three Wise Monkeys" also known as the NIKKO Monkeys are described thusly (thanks mB) so: "“See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil” is a common phrase, usually used to describe someone who doesn't want to be involved in a situation or someone turning a willful blind eye to the immorality of an act he is involved in." By throwing your support behind that of a sexual predator, you are collaborating with him just as if you were committing the crime yourself.
nthepew - WOW, I was writing about the three monkeys at the time you were posting your post - Timely Coincidence? I think not!
"Arguing with stubborn people is like mud wrestling with a pig. Eventually you realize the pig likes it." ;-)
4545: Thanks for making my point today, which is this:
By Mac Brunson allowing SG to come to speak at the Pastor's Conference he is "showing his support" for SG. I couldn't have said it better than you did.
Please Mac Brunson, I know you have people reading this blog - please don't "show support" to SG at this time. As SG's friend 4545 has said, "wait until the facts come out" - before you reward SG a keynote speaking slot at one of the SBC's premier pastor's conferences.
Sorry 4545 you totally support SG.
You attack victims of child abuse like fedup. You do defend SG's keeping PW a secret from the church by saying you want to wait for an investigation to be completed , ( an internal investigation by men with a vested intrest of an outcome of no wrongdoing, and you know this).Please be honest if SG shot someone on Sunday morning in front of the entire church you would still defend him.
truthsleuth said...
"Arguing with stubborn people is like mud wrestling with a pig. Eventually you realize the pig likes it." ;-)
I agree completely, I just could not help but add that last bucket of slop to the trough. Sorry, I will try to refrain from my "personal attacks". (although I though I was actually making a factual statement) :)
Never engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed man.
MOM4 said...
nthepew - WOW, I was writing about the three monkeys at the time you were posting your post - Timely Coincidence? I think not!
9:32 PM, January 03, 2007
No coincidence, just great minds at work
A small mind and a big mouth are usually found in the same place.
Quite a few of you have contacted me recently asking what you can do. Right please be in fervernt prayer. I know that some of you want to do more and you can but now is not the time.
Mission and other new readers: there is so much information on this blog that it would be worth your time to review when you can. If you conact me I will share the time line of my involvment in all of this. I think someone (Mom) has shared with you how to do a search. I didn't know how to do that. I think it was Mom that share that neat little trick.
A little more about me and my role with SNAP. I do not do this full time. This is strictly a volunteer job. I do have a job in the legal profession that keeps me very busy. In addition I have a very patient wife. Some of you here know her personally. If you would click on my profile you will see that I have added a link to my story that I spoke about earlier. I am grateful that I was able to repress my memories for as long as I did. I was able to establish a stong relationship my Risen Savior that I lean on so much. Now I know why. Romans 8:28 is so very real in my life.
This is not a God of accidents we serve. Including all this "moral failure" stuff. This is happening now for His purpose. He does take bad and make good things out of them. All I have to do is look in the mirror to know that is true.
I will be asking those that want to help to speak out in the near future. There is much wrong in our denomnation. After the stories today of Trinity, you should be aware the SBC is in deep trouble.
I appreciate all the kinds words of encouragement and support and that comes from both sides of the Steve Gaines arugments. On this one issue of protecting our children there is no division
nthepew- You just lied. Sorry. You just put words in my mouth on purpose, yet again.
More personal insults from the awesome Christians on the blog. And you are pointing your fingers at others? You will be held accountable for everything that you are doing.
4545: Wrong - SG and PW will be held accountable after the investigation is complete.
So you and others will not be held accountable for what you are doing? Only Dr. Gaines and PW?
Today, I was reading some sermon notes from from a message on Spiritual Adversity by Ed Young, Sr in Houston, TX.
The high points are:
1. Adversity is a signal of wrong priorities in our lives. We are not putting HIM first.
2. Adversity should cause us to desire God's power in our lives. We are living by our own MIGHT.
3. Adveristy makes us aware of our accountability. If not, we do not FEAR God.
4. Adversity should cause us to purify ourselves. We should come clean by CONFESSION to God and man.
5. Adversity should cause us to comprehend the final cost of our sin. We should become aware of the consequences of our SIN.
6. Adversity should cause us to bow our hearts before a Holy God - failure to do so is PRIDE.
7. Adversity should cause us to purify our faith. Purification cause us to hate sin.
8. God does not take the pressure off until HE gets our attention. We should cry out daily with humility and a pure heart.
9. Adversity should prompt us to put on the whole armor of God. We are overwhelmed without it.
10. Adversity should cause us to desire God's power in our lives.
11. Adversity ALWAYS reveals weaknesses.
12. Adversity will always test relationships - one will gain from it and one will give protest about it.
I guess since we could all learn from this, the question is if it will just be us or will the leadership who calls us the "adversary", be willing to learn as well.
4545 said...
So you and others will not be held accountable for what you are doing? Only Dr. Gaines and PW?
10:07 PM, January 03, 2007
Will you go before God and say "Lord I know my pastor allowed a child rapist stay around to prey on your little ones, and I supported him in spite of this because he ment more to me than your innocent ones"
David Brown,
Thanks for all of you input. I really appreciate it. Your patience as well. You can probably tell from many of our responses that most of us are extremely concerned and caring toward victims of this sick crime.
I had no idea that your time and effort was done on a volunteer basis. God Bless You for your efforts. I for one consider you to be a true minister in accordance with Scripture.
One final question if you would be so kind as to share. How can is SNAP funded and do they accept donations? I believe that organization that you represent is worhty of our support. I have presented many offerings lately to non-profit organizations that support truth and righteousness.
It seems to me to be far more worthy than the Bellevue Legal Defensive Fund. :)
Thanks again
4545,
My curiosity is getting the best of me. Would you please tell us your age? I have a feeling you are very young. That may explain the blind trust you are placing in Dr. Gaines.
Trust me, he's good at eliciting that emotion from people, but you seem to have an extra measure. I supported him at first, but you would have to be blind not to see that Steve Gaines' first priority is Steve Gaines and his power, prestige and pride.
We, too, are waiting for all the facts to come out...if they ever do. In fact, I live each day of my Bellevue life waiting for the next shoe to drop. I pray there is nothing else even worse hidden and that no other innocent, trusting, defenseless people have been harmed.
As many others have said, if this situation were more personal to you, if you had a child that PW had abused, or if Gaines had personally run over you as he has done to others, you would have an entirely different opinion.
Mom4,
Adversity is different than "adversaries" isn't it.
"A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinions." Prov 18:2
allofgrace wrote:
"If you're going to post a long url, then split it between two lines of text."
Better yet, learn how to post a real link! There's a link on the front page (under "Links") which will direct you to a page where you can find directions for doing that. Please take the time to learn how to do this. It's not difficult and makes reading so much easier for everyone.
Thanks,
NBBCOF
Tim..
It is, but I believe that since we have been labeled "adversaries", the leadership must think that we are causing the problems at BBC.
I think that the Lord has removed the hedge for a reason and that we need to watch for those reasons so we can understand why He did allowed it.
Was it in order to restore our church body? Was it to break Steve Gaines to bring him to a position where he could be effective? Or was it to make us aware of just how bad we ALL really are in His eyes? (as Paul said - we are all sinners and I am chief) WOW, what a conviction!
NASS,
I am sorry for my long posts - it was written from my notes so I could not "link" to anything. I will try to do better from now on..:)
Gonna check my mail and say good night all!
Fedup, thank you for your email. I have replied
Memphis and iflyaway
I have not received either of your email. Did you send it to
fedupatbbc@yahoo.com?
Wonder why i am not getting my email thru that account?
Fedup, all I did was hit reply????
You have seen how internal investigations have been held in other churches. ie..Jax
Will the internal investigations conducted by Bellevue deny any misconduct by any minister other than the minister accused?
Was Mark Dougherty recently placed on a leave of absence?
Why was he gone for several weeks?
Will Mark Dougherty be retiring in the near future?
Is the church negotiating an early retirement plan for Mark Dougherty?
Was David Coombs hired in advance of Mark Dougherty’s retirement as his replacement?
Is there some impropriety or misconduct that has not been made known to the church concerning Mark Dougherty?
Does Mark Dougherty have information that would be damaging to other staff members concerning the current DCS investigation that is preventing him from being disciplined by the leadership?
REPOST FROM YESTERDAY:
4545 said...
“It is a fact that several others new of the PW deal. Some for more than 6 months.”
3:55 PM, January 02, 2007
4545 said...
“We will have the facts very soon.”
4:16 PM, January 02, 2007
_______
4545- So which is it. You said that “it is a fact that several others new (knew) of the PW deal. Some for more than 6 months.” Then, 21 minutes later you said (typed) “we will have the facts very soon.”
If you have some facts, please state them. Thank you.
4:31 PM, January 02, 2007
_____
Hello 4545-
Can you please provide some additional facts if you have them? We appreciate it.
closetotheinnercircle:
Add this to your list of questions:
Why was Mark D. seen bringing in a HUGE shredder one NIGHT last summer?
Perhaps THAT is where my file ( from my 'counseling' session with PW) went?
mom4,
I'm sure all this is happening for a multitude of reasons.
fedup,
It's yahoo..it's free..go figure.
fedupatbbc said...
Memphis and iflyaway
I have not received either of your email. Did you send it to
fedupatbbc@yahoo.com?
yes...dodododododododo...The Cyberzone has it. :-)
Hey Ifly and Memphis
I just received both emails.
Thanks, ya'll!!! :)
I reckon cyberspace is slow tonight.
fedup - did you get the email I replied to?
ifly,
LOL< yes, i think I did...my email is getting all mixed up :(
Or maybe " i " am all mixed up!!!
:)
We're all mixed up!
Day 4: Genesis 10-12
American English translation ("NIV")
King James
Please pray a Great Commission prayer for today's nation of the day: Angola
(offline)
closetotheinnercircle,
Just a couple of things.
First if you have not spoken with the DCS or the DA, I believe that perhaps you should. If you aren't sure who to contact or how to contact them, David Brown could be of assitance to you.
Second, whether you are a member of the staff, a deaon or member of the church, it would be helpful if you would elaborate on these questions. It has been very frustrating for me to believe that those with answers sit in silence. Please contact me, my name and contact are on my profile.
Brother Tim,
In my opinion, closetotheinnercircle is a phony. Asking questions like that are an insidious way of spreading gossip while appearing impartial.
It's the same as gathering a bunch of prayer partners to 'pray' over a brother's sin. It seems appropriate, but the motive is usually pure gossip.
I'll be happy to take back what I said about this blogger if any of this is PROVEN to be true. Or perhaps if "close" would care to elaborate further. Until then, I'm not going to pay any attention.
nthepew said...
Sorry 4545 you totally support SG.
You attack victims of child abuse like fedup. You do defend SG's keeping PW a secret from the church by saying you want to wait for an investigation to be completed , ( an internal investigation by men with a vested intrest of an outcome of no wrongdoing, and you know this).Please be honest if SG shot someone on Sunday morning in front of the entire church you would still defend him.
9:39 PM, January 03, 2007
People, this is the sort of junk that has to go out the window.
Never mind the reprehensible personal insults--either God's sovereign, or He isn't. If you can't show even a thimble's worth of patience for the current internal investigation, think about what your impatience infers.
It infers that Bellevue's staff and lay leadership is corrupt, top to bottom and stem to stern. And that it has been utterly corrupt long enough to put people in place who would cover up facts and impede an impartial investigation.
Either take the high road or don't make the trip.
And just for the record--God is sovereign. :)
--Mike
I just watched the video from Trinity. Sounds eerily familiar. I have a question. Nothing was really said about Messer's part in the coverup and whether he would be held accountable legally. I know they said an internal investigation showed no signs of a coverup (roll eyes...oh please) but will Messer be held accountable as well? And what about the secretaries......didn't they think it odd when he locked the door with young children in there? Again, the SBC has got to reevaluate their leadership. What a black eye for us all.
mike bratton wrote:
Either take the high road or don't make the trip.
AMEN AND AMEN!!!!
Abraham.
What can be said about Abraham?
Those of us who believe in the garden of Eden (1.5 billion Christians + 1 billion Muslims) all believe we are descended from Adam.
Those of us who believe in Noah and the Ark (1.5 billion Christians + 1 billion Muslims) all believe we are descended from Noah.
Adam is different from Abraham. It was by the hand of God that Adam was the first man. That was not a faith choice by Adam.
Abraham is similar to Noah because in both cases, apparently God presented a message to everyone on earth and only got one respondent. Both messages were to separate out and receive a signifigant blessing from God. (For Noah it was salvation from God's wrath through the flood).
Abraham lived in the same time period as basicaly all the post-Babel ancient civilizations were getting started: China, India, Egypt, ancient mid-east. (There was a delay for the Ancient Americans to get started as they were a substantially further from the Tower of Babel).
But not everyone on earth is (physically) decended from Abraham.
In chapter 12, God makes the offer Abraham accepts:
2 "I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
Of all the 6.5 billion people on earth today, some 300 million are either Arabs (Ishmaelites, ~90%) or Israelites (Isaac-ites, ~10%).
Let's exclude Adam and Noah's "artificially inflated" 100% level of ancestral origin for the world's population. We can make that exclusion due to God's physical hand in the world through Creation and the Flood.
With that exclusion, is there anybody in recorded history with a progeny as large as Abraham's contemporary 300 million?
And through Christianity 1.5 billion of us are spiritually descendants of Abraham. An additional 1 billion Muslims honor the name of Abraham as well.
2 "I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
God's word is true. When these word's were inspired through Moses by the Holy Spirit, how could Moses have known that they would be so accurate for the next several thousand years?
Better yet, how could Abraham know that God would keep his promise?
Abraham accepted God's offer on faith.
I commend Abraham to you today.
P.S. If you ever want a chance to make a friend out of a Muslim, tell him you love Abraham and Noah.
Bellevue Friend, thank you for your kind words.
And Finance Guy...
FinanceGuy said...
New BBC Open Forum said...
MB wrote:
"I own the copyright for the elongated spelling of "evil," so you owe me five cents. :)"
Actually, I bet Rush was saying it before you were, so I'm sure he got a copyright on it first!
That's the difference between verbalizing it and writing it.
This isn't his finest work of course, but as he has clearly and consistently demonstrated above average ability in "semantics" and "hair splitting",
I hereby nominate Mike Bratton for "Semantically Hair Splitter of the Year".
12:49 PM, January 03, 2007
...there's a difference between semantics and hair-splitting.
Semantics involves the nuances of meaning held in words. Hair-splitting involves esoteric delineations that are ultimately inconsequential.
The study of semantics yields precision in speech and writing. The study of splitting hairs yields, well, advances in shampoo technology.
Nevertheless, thank you for your nomination.
--Mike
Those of you that have picked up on the fact that Steve Gaines will be speaking in Jacksonville next month at the Pastor's Conference will also want to send a note to Tim Ellsworth, who is hosting what is ironically called a Baptist "identity" conference. SG will be the ONLY pastor on the agenda of other speakers. How ironic. I found this information on Wade Burleson's blog from yesterday and posted the following
___________________________________
Thanks for your interest in the conference, Wade. I'm glad you and others here are planning to attend, and I'll look forward to seeing you on campus.
Tim Ellsworth
Director of News and Media Relations
Union University
_____________________________
My post to Tim Ellsworth:
Tim - How ironic that Steve Gaines is speaking at an "identity" conference. I am curious as to why Steve Gaines is on the list of speakers. He is the only pastor in the group and is currently embroiled in controversy and under criminal investigation. Might it send the wrong message to those attending to have SG speak under the circumstances since he admittedly harbored a pedophile staff member. To see the seriousness of what he did, I invite you to cut and paste the links below as a similar investigation is going on here in Jacksonville against a mega-church pastor that also chose not to disclose a pedophile staff member. Here are the links. Unbelievable! You must see these! CAUTION: The accounts are graphic.
6:00 pm First Coast News Report:
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/video/player.aspx?aid=80816&bw=
11:00 pm First Coast News Report:
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/video/player.aspx?aid=80896&bw=
Thursday, January 04, 2007
concernedsbcer:
Firstly, I want to make sure you understand that Trinity Baptist Church is NOT a member of the SBC. They are and have always been (at least from the days of the monster Bob Gray) have been a conservative, fundamental, KJV independent Baptist church.
Secondly, Jeanie Blaylock's expose' in those three video clips (which by the way are now hyperlinked at www.savingbellevue.com) makes it abundatly clear that Tom Messer knew that Bob Gray was molesting children. Some of those in leadership positions at the time said they were told he "kissed" little girls, but nothing more (as though that isn't enough to know he is a sexual predator). Tom Messer apparently feared Bob Gray more than God and thus he allowed it to go on.
But you raise a good question: how could this monster get away with it...my children were all counseled by Homer Lindsay and Jerry Vines after their profession of faith, and Lindsay and Vines NEVER would have children in their office except the parents or an adult is in the office with them. If I ever were to see ANY adult take a child into a closed room or office I would immediately suspect that child is in danger - how could they have not seen that at Trinity? The reason was that the church worshiped the Pastor as much as they worshipped God. Their minds couldn't conceive of the possibility that the "high and mighty" Bob Gray could do anything wrong.
This is the problem I see with many of the "mega church" pastors these days....they have unchecked authority to make unilateral decisions. And every so often one of these pastors turns out to be a pedophile or an adulterer and causes tremendous pain and suffering before anyone suspects he is doing it - because the parishoners either worship him, or they fear him, or both...
In oder to believe and follow your leader you must at first trust him.
Concernedsbcer:
Regarding Tom Messer being held accountable: as far as I know he is not under criminal investigation. Bob Gray will go on trial in the next few months, so maybe as facts come out Messer will be more of the focus. I think that perhaps there is a statute of limitations that might shield him, but I don't know.
What I do know is this: it is pathetic that the church keeps Tom Messer as the pastor of the church. If someone could explain how he keeps his position of Pastor after multiple women have testified that Tom Messer knew of Bob Gray's pedophilia that resulted in more victims, please explain it.
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