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About Me
- New BBC Open Forum
- This forum was created to provide a place where those who are seriously concerned about the issues facing Bellevue Baptist Church and the SBC can come to comment and exchange ideas. Anonymous comments are welcome, but it is respectfully requested that instead of choosing the "Anonymous" option those who want to post comments without logging in select a unique screen name. This lets everyone tell the difference between one anon and another without revealing any personal information. Under the box where you compose your comment where it says "Choose an identity," just check "Name/URL" and type in the screen name of your choice. You can leave the URL field blank. It would be helpful if you'd use the same screen name for any subsequent comments. This makes reading and following discussions easier, helps avoid confusion, and doesn't result in one person being credited for writing something s/he didn't. Comments by posters whose only purpose is to disrupt (i.e. trolls) will be subject to deletion. Your cooperation will be appreciated.
784 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 600 of 784 Newer› Newest»I knew it!!..ace, see my 11:34 pm post.
Goodnight folks!
I'm headed for bed.
sickofthelies
LOL! You're a riot!
Goodnight all! :)
remembering that I have given the D. A. that information
I spent the largest part of my adult life as a law enforcement agent/investigator and I can assure, 100% that in the state of Tennessee one person who is involved in the conversation is all you need to record it. You cannot place a listening device in a room in which you will not be in order to record the conversation that ensues. If you leave the presence of the conversation then you cannot leave a listening/recording device. But, as long as you are there, it is ok and nobody else has to know. These laws differ according to states for private citizens.
Ace,
I can respect that. I assume you really are Stephen. I think you are a nice guy who would have the decency to leave our associate pastor out of this if you were not his son.
Good night, Stephen Coombs.
Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
Proverbs 10:18 ¶ He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool.
Proverbs 13:5 ¶ A righteous man hateth lying: but a wicked man is loathsome, and cometh to shame.
Proverbs 26:28 ¶ A lying tongue hateth those that are afflicted by it; and a flattering mouth worketh ruin.
Proverbs 27:5 ¶ Open rebuke is better than secret love.
Thank you, Kingdomrevolution.
This means no bugs in Sunday School classrooms!
I guess tomorrow at church before I speak to anyone I should ask them if they are recording our conversation huh? :)
you just never know
Well,
There is a caveat. You can get a court order based on an affidavit and then you can post a listening device wherever the court deems.
The federal law is completely different and, of course, when law enforcement gets involved, it is totally a different story. Private citizens don't have to adhere to the fourth ammendement proscriptions against unreasonable search.
1st Timothy 1:6 ¶ Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.
7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
ace said:
Close, but I didn't order pie....I'll give you a hint. It a word that starts with C and it comes in a package of about 20! ;)
response:
you mean, Stephen Coombs smokes? WHO KNEW???????
all of grace,
btw, great blog ya got
Memphis,
You can actually buy a watch that has a recording device in it. So be sure and check that out tomorrow, too!!! :O)
amos,
thanks...and thanks for the scriptures.
sickofthelies, they also have shirt buttons that can record video, and beepers that record and transmit audio and all sorts of other tools used in surveilance.
but thanks for the tip
Sick,
you mean, Stephen Coombs smokes? WHO KNEW???????
Quit posting gossip. I know that is hard for you to do, but try for just 10 seconds... Alright? That wasn't even a slight bit funny.
Ok, I just returned from worship this morning (it is Sunday in Thailand) and if anyone is still up and awake, I have a question. I know some of this was discussed a while back, but I still have a question. We studied I Corinthians 6 and verse 7 reads: "To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. "WHY NOT SUFFER WRONG? WHY NOT BE DEFRAUDED? (not yelling, just for emphasis).
This is an honest, open, no agenda question: How does this apply to the situation with Bellevue and what looks like is coming?
sick of the lies
I break my code of silence this one time...ok, that was kinda funny
Memphis,
Where might I purchase one of these video recorder buttons? You know, just IN CASE I need it :)
Memphis,
I think I should watch the movie, " inspector gadget" before I go to church tomorrow.
and no Ace, we dont believe you smoke
kingdom,
No expert here..I would think that to force compliance to a statute would require a court order, and would be different from filing a lawsuit...but then I'm no attorney.
I doubt you could get one by tomorrow night anyways Sickofthelies
Kingdom
No one is talking about a lawsuit..but we could, however, get a court order to get BBC to comply with the TENN statute that calls for non profit organizations to make available a membership list to any member, upon request, within a 5 day period.
From my earlier post:
"Ace, I'm sure you have some pointers for those of us who are "starving" for righteousness, transparency, integrity, openness, and accountability of our leadership.
Thanks in advance. I’ll check back later."
5:48 PM, January 27, 2007
Well I'm checking back. We who are in the minority really are asking for your input on these significant concerns.
Sadtroll, I for one would like to know how you, with all of your personal knowledge and inside experience can defend to your conscience your continued accommodation of so many leadership sins.
This is my best attempt at this late hour at what are genuine questions for me.
I know.... who am I? There will be a day for that...just not today.
Colossians,
*all* my posts from earlier today were deleted because the blogmaster didn't agree with them.
Nonetheless, I will search for some verses. I'm heading to bed in a few minutes so if I don't find them, please remind me again tomorrow or sometime else....either by posting here or email: acefrombbc@gmail.com
Proverbs 4:24 Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee.
Proverbs 6: 12 ¶ A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth.
13 He winketh with his eyes, he speaketh with his feet, he teacheth with his fingers;
14 Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth discord.
15 Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; suddenly shall he be broken without remedy.
Proverbs 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Proverbs 11:20 ¶ They that are of a froward heart are abomination to the LORD: but such as are upright in their way are his delight.
21 ¶ Though hand join in hand, the wicked shall not be unpunished: but the seed of the righteous shall be delivered.
Proverbs 16:28 A froward man soweth strife: and a whisperer separateth chief friends.
Does this verse preclude completely a civil lawsuit between believers? If so, would a "church tribunal" within Bellevue have to be formed if it came to a legally binding ruling to be delivered one way or the other?
I'll repost again:
I love my church said...
I call on someone, anyone, who is defending the pastor and the BBC leadership to present a detail biblical explanation of your point of view. Please explain it so we know where we are going wrong. Please explain why the pastor is not accountable to the deacons or the church. Please explain why the other leaders are not accountable to the church members. Please explain why we are violating Scripture by asking questions and seeking accountability. Please build the biblical case that proves unity should trump truth.
I want chapter and verse. I want analysis. Persuade me with a biblical argument that what we are doing is wrong. Don't just throw out Hebrews 13:17, that won't cut it. Give me something to go on and I might change my view.
A poster to the forum asked me those questions and I cannot answer him. So you would really be helpig many of us out if you can answer me. I anxiously await your explanation. If you can do it we might actually get somewhere. I'll admit I don't think anyone, including Brother Steve, can do it.
11:43 AM, January 27, 2007
I'm still waiting for someone to take my up on this. I don't think any of you can do it. I've not talked to any deacon who can do it. Can our pastor? Can anyone? Someone defending the pastor give it a shot.
8:30 PM, January 27, 2007
kingdom,
this is one area that i think the presbys might have an advantage over us in church government..the sessions of elders at each level are kind of ecclesiastical courts..which provide higher and higher courts of appeals all the way to the general assembly..which helps keep disputes in house so to speak.
I love my church,
I would take you up on your challenege but I am not well-versed in Scripture as I should be.
On top of that, you are just going to attack whatever is said like little vultures instead of listening to it with an open-mind, essentially wasting the time of whoever decides to write your detailed post. THAT is why I haven't responded to your post.
ace wrote:
"ace said...
"Sick,
"you mean, Stephen Coombs smokes? WHO KNEW???????"
"Quit posting gossip. I know that is hard for you to do, but try for just 10 seconds... Alright? That wasn't even a slight bit funny."
I don't know. Actually, I'm still wiping the water off my screen! "Starts with 'c' and comes in packs of 20?"
Young man, it's past your bedtime! You were a bad boy, so you're not supposed to be posting tonight. Now, skedaddle so the tooth fairy will come. Maybe she'll leave you a shiny new quarter!
Kingdom
I'm not sure I totally understand your question, but if IDC was granted a court order for bbc to hand over the membership list..that's the end of it..the church doesn't then get to have a meeting to decide if it is going to comply. It is the law.
Not sure what the court could do to bbc if they choose to be in contempt. But I would think that it would not be a good idea in the public opinion realm for them to be in contempt. You know...that whole ..' render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" thing.
NBBCOF,
"Starts with 'c' and comes in packs of 20?"
Duh, it's COOKIES!!!!
Young man, it's past your bedtime! You were a bad boy, so you're not supposed to be posting tonight.
It's past midnight, it's a new day! :)
sadtroll,
Your attempt at psychological warfare is weak...but I'll give it an A in the amusing dept.
Sick,
I agree and understand what you are saying. As an aside, if they have blatantly ignored TN Annotated Code (and I assume they have since the list hasn't beeen turned over), then, as we used to say (tongue firmly planted in cheek) they need to punished, mostly for being stupid.
But, seriously, I could see where this all could reach a point where some authority has to step in and sort it out or someone has to walk away. Am I making any sense with that?
I love my church,
instead of letting anyone on either side influence you, why not let the word of GOD form your convictions...obviously, these 'concerns' are not just arbitrary; please carefully read the following; your answers are much more likely to be found in the word as opposed to another's 'take' on the matter- grace to you
Proverbs 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.
Proverbs 15:22 ¶ Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are established.
23 ¶ A man hath joy by the answer of his mouth: and a word spoken in due season, how good is it!
Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
Proverbs 28:1 ¶ The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion.
2 ¶ For the transgression of a land many are the princes thereof: but by a man of understanding and knowledge the state thereof shall be prolonged.
4 ¶ They that forsake the law praise the wicked: but such as keep the law contend with them.
5 ¶ Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.
2nd Timothy 2:22 ¶ Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
1 Peter 5:1 ¶ The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
kingdom said:
But, seriously, I could see where this all could reach a point where some authority has to step in and sort it out or someone has to walk away. Am I making any sense with that?
response:
Kingdom, smarter people than me are gonna have to figure that out!!
allofgrace wrote:
"sadtroll,
"Your attempt at psychological warfare is weak...but I'll give it an A in the amusing dept."
AOG,
Apparently SadTroll can't read and follow instructions either. Hence, his posts had to be deleted.
Logan,
I used to record calls all day long, and was told by our lawyers that I did not need to tell the other person. We used the recordings in court.
ok, boys and girls, I"m goin to bed.
goodnight.
DC, get a good night's sleep, you are going to need it tomorrow becuase there willbe many people recording you!! Be very careful what you say.
Sadtroll,
Considering the cost that God established and the price Christ paid for my sin sick soul it is about "me".
Not about me in the sense that I council almighty God, but about me in that Christ did not die in vain so that you and I might be reconciled to God.
Again...about "me". Now in this very narrow sense if it were not for "you" and "me" Christ would have had no reason to lay down His life... the “perfect” in place of the “imperfect” on the cross.
It is not about "me" in the sense that I am the center and the circumference, but that it IS about "me" in that the one who is the center and the circumference...the creator of all, esteemed me worthy of his blood, which was applied to my account. Without "me" and "you" all of creation would be as silent as laughter in a vacuum.
It is about "me" and "you". Who else is the ultimate object of God's love and judgment? Not our pets.
Christ is the bride of the church ...for what? As an object lesson or for "you" and "me"?
Do we have the Word of God for God's own entertainment or for "you" and "me"?
Was the Holy Spirit sent to comfort God or "you" and "me"?
"It" is NOT about ME, but as one who is totally dependant upon God for any and all significance I see "you" and "me" as the ministers of reconciliation whom God has equip, enabled, and called to devotedly and willingly serve each other as unto Christ in gratitude to God.
It is about "you" and "me"...from God's perspective…. as it is about God from "our" perspective. It is just not about "you" or "me" as if we could be LORD.
You must submit to being challenged and encouraged by both the weaker and the stronger amongst us, some who’s thinking, is as the mind of Christ and some who only think so. Neither of us is above the need for teaching, admonition, and correction, by the very Word of God. You and I know that he who thinks he stands…take heed…
We must be working tirelessly to learn of each others usefulness to the Lord’s plan for our fellowship we call Bellevue Baptist Church while not picking petty fights over heartless semantics and word games. IF you are uniquely gifted and talented in God’s family lets not get into a “food fight” at the table of our Lord Jesus. Make all, which you have received from God an available instrument of help to all in the Body of Christ at Bellevue.
Please do not critique what I have written line by line…. None of this is scripture and will not hold up to close examination. But please respect my thoughts as I attempt to bring “my” family back to the table where we can again feed on the Word of God in truth, integrity, and transparency, with thanksgiving in our hearts and praises on our lips. Thanks….
This isn't a big deal, I know. But the information is wrong about notifying the other participant in a recorded phone call. Only one party has to consent to and/or have knowledge of the phone call. This is the law in 39 states.
You may record every phone call you make and you do not have to notify the other party that it is being recorded and it is legal to use said phone call in a court proceeding.
However, technically according to the law you can't tap your own phone to record phone calls that you are not a party to, but I have known cases of parents with teens who they needed to keep an eye on doing this with no intent of ever using it in court.
You also can't record conversations with a recording device that you are not a party to... so everyone needs to leave those parabolic mikes at home.
Colossians3:1-4,
What a beautiful post! Thank you for that!
Tim,
Thank you for the retraction. You are a man of honor and integrity and I appreciate you.
NASS,
You've had quite a full night, and I hope by now you are sleeping peacefully. Much has been accomplished for the cause of Christ this evening, despite the best (and definitely worst) efforts of a few. Thank you for what you are doing.
Karen, 2006Huldah, Mom4, and especially sickofthelies,
You are all my sisters in Christ, and I love you with the love of the Lord. And I appreciate you and your love for our church and its people.
Sickofthelies, next time you're gonna do something like your classic answer to the "starts with C and comes in packs of 20" thing with Ace -- warn me first. Almost didn't make it down the hall in time ...
Love to all ... now back to bed, Lord willing. See you in the morning! ... oh, it IS morning!
No profile = No posting
It's really very simple.
NBBCOF
Thank you, mjm. You're appreciated, too. We don't have to agree on everything, but we can be civil and even be friends in the process -- advice several people here last night would be well advised to take to heart.
Let's have a wonderful Lord's Day and be in prayer for our church, the leadership, and in particular CW. Today is likely going to be a stressful day for many.
NASS
Just a little something to lighten the mood around here. Did they use Bellevue as a model?
Link
(((((( MJM))))))))
Thanks for your sweet words.
Also to all: I would LUV to take credit for the cigarette remark but someone on this blog who shall remain nameless unless that person gives me permission actually emailed me with the original thought.
I thought he was talking about the 20-piece box of Chicken McNuggets.
NASS
Do they even sell a 20 pack of Chicken McNuggets? Again, I was talking about cookies.
Apologies, folks.
I said I'd stop by the chandelier around 6:15 p.m. tonight, which would be fifteen minutes after the evening worship service starts.
What I meant to say was "around 5:45 p.m." tonight.
Hope to run into some of you then.
And yes, integrity does count. However, just because someone one disagrees with might not have it doesn't automatically mean one possesses it oneself.
And naming, just like wishing, doesn't necessarily make it so.
Be careful, folks.
--Mike
ace wrote:
"Do they even sell a 20 pack of Chicken McNuggets?"
Yep. See?
Mike,
You said,"And yes, integrity does count. However, just because someone one disagrees with might not have it doesn't automatically mean one possesses it oneself."
Of course you are right. But will you say this to the leadership of Bellevue? Even if every single person involved with Integrity Does Count is a complete scoundrel, an unregenerate fool, a Baptist John Bircher who sees conspiracy under every rock, that would say nothing about the integrity of the Bellevue leadership. If they discredit every member of Integrity Does Count, that will not justify a single lie that might have been told, a single sin that has been committed and covered up.
My prayer for Integrity Does Count is they enable us to know the truth for ourselves. If there have indeed been lies and sins, we need to know so we can move forward in truth. If there have not been lies and sins, we need to know that too so we can begin healing and be assured we are moving forward in truth.
Without assurance of the truth we cannot move forward.
I have returned from the 11:00 service with my daughter and her family who recently moved here for her husband's job. They were anxious to return to Bellevue, where they grew up and were married. They were sorely disappointed. I had not told them all my true feelings and the doubts we had in the leadership because we wanted them to be guided by the Lord and not us. They were able to discern for themselves. I asked when the service was over what she thought of our new pastor and the service. The answer was, "This place is dead, there is no life left here." and "what happened to the choir" and "what has happened, who did this?"
How do we answer??
With the truth!!
The Spirit that dwelt in Bellevue no longer exists there because there is sin that has compromised the integrity of the leadership.
Until that is dealt with, Bellevue will continue to die spiritually.
Tonight will be a shining example of what we can expect for the future of Bellevue, whichever way the truth falls will tell it all.
Let us be in prayer for the meeting tonight.
Someone from GBC sent me this clarification of a member's experience obtaining a membership list and asked that I post it:
"For years, it had been GBC's policy to give a membership list to any member that asked for it. The most requests were from Brides-to-Be for wedding and wedding shower invitations. There was never any hesitation about giving the list to a member. Very early on, a member, that was opposed to the direction that GBC was going, walked into the administrative office and asked for a list. He was presented with a list in the time it took to print it out. TSC 48-66-101 did not have to be pointed out, before the list was released. However, the GBC leadership attitude changed after the list was used to announce the first mass SaveGBC meeting."
NBBCOF
mom4,
I sorry to hear that your daughter was disappointed with the service. I am surprised that you are not more open with your daughter in sharing what has been going on at BBC in the last 18 months. You would think that the goings on at BBC would be the main topic of discussion since you seem to spend much of your time on this blog.
Have a nice day!!
brad,
You're repeating yourself.
No, they aren't. A couple of bloggers were trying to stir things up last couple of nights, even going so far as to mention the names of other bloggers' underage children while contributing nothing to the discussion, so their posts were deleted. One was told not to post again last night and continued to post, so those posts were deleted. I never delete posts because they don't agree with my personal views. We can disagree without being disagreeable. If you were here last night and were reading along before those posts were deleted, it would have been obvious what the problem was.
Also, comments from people who refuse to make their profiles visible will be deleted, so that accounts for several comments that were deleted last night.
Hope this helps!
NBBCOF
NBBCOF wrote:
"Also, comments from people who refuse to make their profiles visible will be deleted... "
Golly, brad. Looks like that includes you!
The rules are clearly stated on the front page.
NBBCOF
Also, comments from people who refuse to make their profiles visible will be deleted, so that accounts for several comments that were deleted last night.
"brad" fits this category
Mom4 said
The answer was, "This place is dead, there is no life left here."
As I sat in church service this morning I was thinking the same thing. A body was in the seat but there was no heart there..As a long time member of bellevue I can only say tears came into my eyes and I prayed Lord what would you have me to do????
Thank you, Charles. I noticed that right after I answered him. I hope he doesn't take it personally because I certainly didn't mean it that way. The rule applies to everyone.
lwood,
Would you be so kind to tell me how the attendance was this am? I had to leave after SS.
Thanks,
i love my church said- I love my church said...
I call on someone, anyone, who is defending the pastor and the BBC leadership to present a detail biblical explanation of your point of view. Please explain it so we know where we are going wrong. Please explain why the pastor is not accountable to the deacons or the church. Please explain why the other leaders are not accountable to the church members. Please explain why we are violating Scripture by asking questions and seeking accountability. Please build the biblical case that proves unity should trump truth.
REPLY- What a cop out. You need to read your post and take your own advice. Answer your own questions. You and many others and VERY deceived if you feel what you are doing on the blog etc is the Lord's work. It is far from it.
Asking questions and seeking accountability?
PLEASE!!!
Try attacking with every breath and every word. The true questions on here, asked in the right way, do not bother me at all. The problem is, that is about 2% of what is being said and done.
This blog and the new "press release" and all of this stuff is just so sad. It is a fact that MANY are being totally controlled by this stuff. It is ruling your life. Many are consumed by it. That is truly sad and a sad way to live.
ANYTHING that is put above Christ is wrong and the Bible is clear on this.
Hey, Mr. Deacon! Welcome back! Where've you been?
There is something wrong with the person, not Bellevue, if there is no heart there and no worship there. Please stop blaming this kind of stuff on Bellevue or anyone else.
What about those that live in Iraq, China, etc?? We should be able to worship anywhere. God does not change.
If you cannot worship at Bellevue, why did you go this morning?
I made it known that I would not be spending my time on this blog.
Concerned
It seemed to me the attendance was down quiet abit but it could be because of the cold weather. It was hard to get the covers off this morning. :)
4545 wrote:
"I made it known that I would not be spending my time on this blog."
Oh, uh... then... uh... ?
overflowing said....
overflowinggrace said...
mom4,
"I sorry to hear that your daughter was disappointed with the service. I am surprised that you are not more open with your daughter in sharing what has been going on at BBC in the last 18 months. You would think that the goings on at BBC would be the main topic of discussion since you seem to spend much of your time on this blog."
My daughter is an adult and is spiritually solid in her walk with the Lord. She can read and discern on her own. She is keenly able to discern that things are not spiritually well at BBC. A gift not shared by some.
Sorry to disappoint you, but she is wise and does not need me to know when the Spirit is not present.
Some mentioned the deal about Dr. Gaines and Bellevue not honoring Mrs. Rogers requests to "clear" Dr. Rogers name.
At the time when she asked them to do so, how could they? They did not know and might never know what Dr. Rogers knew. YOU do not know what Dr. Rogers knew. When she requested this, it was at the beginning of all this and there is no way they could come out and claim that without knowing.
4545 said...
I made it known that I would not be spending my time on this blog.
WELLLLLL But here you are.......
By the way there is a lot of us(MINORITY PEOPLE) keeping our seats warm at BBC but we will stand up and be counted one day....
Lwood said...
Concerned
It seemed to me the attendance was down quiet abit but it could be because of the cold weather. It was hard to get the covers off this morning. :)
There were many cars in the parking lot, but very few in the worship service. I would think that perhaps they were attending BFC and then going home?? And it was quite cold, brrrrr!
Mom4- So you are saying God was not present in the service today? Scripture says different and I can personally say you are wrong.
Both services were great.
There is something wrong with the person, not Bellevue, if there is no heart there and no worship there. Please stop blaming this kind of stuff on Bellevue or anyone else.
What about those that live in Iraq, China, etc?? We should be able to worship anywhere. God does not change.
If you cannot worship at Bellevue, why did you go this morning?
4545 wrote:
"When she requested this, it was at the beginning of all this and there is no way they could come out and claim that without knowing."
It's my understanding that wording clearing Dr. Rogers' name was originally in the "statement" that was made but that Steve Gaines had them remove it. Can you confirm or refute that? Honestly, I don't want to think someone did something he didn't really do.
4545,
No need for the double posts so close together.
Thanks,
NBBCOF
I cannot confirm or refute that. Sorry.
Ace stayed up too late last night. 4545 taking his place today...:)
Just scrolling by.....
Going to watch the Tenn. Girls BB game.....See you tonight.....
Thanks anyway, Mr. Deacon. I appreciate it.
4545 said:
"Both services were great"
25+ says:
Hmmm... Who goes to both services... Mr. Deacon? Mr. Staff Member? or... nah...
NASS... Mr. Staff Member seems like it might fit better. jmo
MOM4 said...
...
There were many cars in the parking lot, but very few in the worship service. I would think that perhaps they were attending BFC and then going home??
Perhaps you attended at 11 a.m.? The 9:30 a.m. service was well-attended.
--Mike
25+- WOW, some of you read into EVERYTHING. That is a big part of the problem. How sad.
Matthew 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
4545
Facts only please. You did say "both services." You are usually so careful. Sure that wasn't a slip?
Sad? Actually, I'm rejoicing in the LORD... Not sad at all. Did you mean that you are? Hope you feel better.
Far from a slip. I know people in both services like most. You can think whatever you would like.
James 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
Bloggers,
DEACON 4545 OFTEN posts for one purpose and one purpose only. OFTEN, DEACON 4545's sole purpose is to be antagonistic. As long as ya'll waste your precious time and talent feeding DEACON 4545, DEACON 4545 will continue to play that game. If you ignore DEACON 4545, then DEACON 4545 will soon go away. Ya'll need to FOCUS, FOCUS, FOCUS on the problems at BBC and quit playing into his hands by playing his game. I know that it is hard to resist taking the BAIT, but you must RESIST THE TEMPTATION.
James 1:19 ¶ Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
1st Chronicles 29:11 Thine, O LORD, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all.
12 Both riches and honour come of thee, and thou reignest over all; and in thine hand is power and might; and in thine hand it is to make great, and to give strength unto all.
13 Now therefore, our God, we thank thee, and praise thy glorious name.
Mikie said...
Perhaps you attended at 11 a.m.? The 9:30 a.m. service was well-attended.
Yes we did go to the 11:00 service, but we were there early and saw the end of the 9:30 service and there were a lot of empty seats. But it was obvious that there were more in the 9:30 service than the 11:00 service and that is normal.
Luke 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Go get'em Charlie! :)
Mark 12:41 ¶ And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.
42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.
43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.
mom4,
I was speaking more to the fact that you seem to be consumed with the going on at BBC. I'm surprised that you have not already shared that info with your daughter. Even more surprised that she was unaware of the current situation.
Charlie Fox
I have been lurking today. I have not talked to "you know who" and I hope you are proud of me.....
See ya tonite? :)
Proverbs 15:28 ¶ The heart of the righteous studieth to answer: but the mouth of the wicked poureth out evil things.
oops, Charlie, Just read your post. I will obey. Thanks!
Proverbs 24:24 He that saith unto the wicked, Thou art righteous; him shall the people curse, nations shall abhor him:
25 But to them that rebuke him shall be delight, and a good blessing shall come upon them.
I'll see y'all under the fancy light thingy in the lobby at 5:45.
Good little piglet and mom4. I be proud.
Charlie, Straighten'em out.
charlie fox said...
Good little piglet and mom4. I be proud.
We all need to be accountable! I appreciate your watchful eye!
Thanks again.
Trollcates said...
I'll see y'all under the fancy light thingy in the lobby at 5:45.
Reply:
Ya need to check with karen or New BBC Open Forum for an update on that.
"Ya need to check with karen or New BBC Open Forum for an update on that."
Uh oh.
Trollcates said...
"Ya need to check with karen or New BBC Open Forum for an update on that."
Uh oh.
4:30 PM, January 28, 2007
Well, at the very least I'll be at the chandelier at 5:45 p.m. or so.
--Mike
Check with Karen.
4545 said...
"I made it known that I would not be spending my time on this blog."
?????????????? Aren't you contradicting yourself?
No reply necessary. Just thought you should 'hear yourself"?
westtnbarrister said...
Mike,
You said,"And yes, integrity does count. However, just because someone one disagrees with might not have it doesn't automatically mean one possesses it oneself."
Of course you are right. But will you say this to the leadership of Bellevue?
I already have.
Even if every single person involved with Integrity Does Count is a complete scoundrel, an unregenerate fool, a Baptist John Bircher who sees conspiracy under every rock,
None of which I have suggested, by the way... :)
that would say nothing about the integrity of the Bellevue leadership. If they discredit every member of Integrity Does Count, that will not justify a single lie that might have been told, a single sin that has been committed and covered up.
Can we hold off on "Watergate mode," please, folks?
My prayer for Integrity Does Count is they enable us to know the truth for ourselves.
It is another example, from what we know so far, of people being known by what they are against, rather than what they are for.
If there have indeed been lies and sins,
I thought you'd come to the conclusion that there have been all sorts of sins that have been "committed and covered up"?
A conditional statement works much better in the here-and-now.
we need to know so we can move forward in truth. If there have not been lies and sins, we need to know that too so we can begin healing and be assured we are moving forward in truth.
Without assurance of the truth we cannot move forward.
Agreed. Let's see how things shake out this evening.
--Mike
mom4 wrote: “My daughter is an adult and is spiritually solid in her walk with the Lord. She can read and discern on her own. She is keenly able to discern that things are not spiritually well at BBC. A gift not shared by some.
Sorry to disappoint you, but she is wise and does not need me to know when the Spirit is not present.”
I couldn’t begin to count the number of times that Dr. Rogers reminded us to not rely on our feelings. To allow that emotion to determine knowledge was dangerous. May I lovely remind mom4 that she should encourge her daughter to know from the Word of God rather than her feelings whether God’s Spirit is with us. If we are Christians the Holy Spirit lives within us….that is one reason we are told not to grieve the Spirit. Since you daughter is capable of reading and discerning on her own, may I suggest you print this for her to read?
1CO 3:16 Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?
According to this verse (and a ton of others), the Holy Spirit dwells within all believers. This means that even though sometimes you don’t ‘feel’ the presence of the Holy Spirit – it is still there with you.
As humans we are driven by feelings. Sometimes our feelings are swayed by sin and Satan. God knowing this, has given us the solid Word of God as a rock to steady our swaying feelings. If you can’t ‘feel’ the Holy Spirit, turn to verses like 1 Cor 3:16 and read it. Let God’s words sink into your head and with his help, it will sink into your heart as well.
As a believer, the Holy Spirit is with you. And because we are sinful, we don’t always feel it. But we can know it.
For more on the Holy Spirit’s relationship with believers look up…
CHRISTIANS & HOLY SPIRIT
Are temples of (1Co 3:16; 6:19). Are filled with (Ac 2:4, 33; 4:8, 31; 6:5; 8:17; 11:24; 13:9, 52; Eph 5:18; 2Ti 1:14). Have fellowship with (Ro 8:9, 11; 1Co 3:16; 6:19; 2Co 13:14; Php 2:1). Receive deposit of (2Co 1:22; 5:5; Eph 1:13-14). Are sealed with (2Co 1:22; Eph 1:13; 4:30). Have righteousness, peace, and joy in (Ro 14:17; 15:13; 1Th 1:6). Are unified by (1Co 12:13). Testify that Jesus is Lord by (Jn 15:26; 16:14; 1Co 12:3).
After reading and discerning this, how can she say the Spirit was not present today? If only in one of us………….
4545
I would like to say the truth about myself but I am reminded of how often my own ideas, understandings, beliefs, and statements come back to me like boomerangs. I do not enjoy "taking a hit" for my own deceived attempts at communication in the name of Christ. But, so far this has not stopped me from trying to express the ideas I believe God is nurturing in my mind. So here are some ideas from today.
As a matter of testimony, I am not aware of my relationship and especially my worship of our Holy God being affected negatively by my surroundings. I have memories of many occasions where I would realize that indeed I was not praying without ceasing in my attitudes. So, without an actual inventory I'm sure that I also have found myself failing to worship in Spirit and in Truth and would have tried to "blame" that on the environment. Well, of course the shame is mine for that for which I had to repent. I agree with the often stated reminder “That unless you worship there will be no worship in that seat where you are.” (close quote)
All that being said as best as I know how to say it..... "Houston, we have a problem" and the problem is not specifically in the "minority" or in the “majority”. THE problem is sin.
In other words the problem is in our imperfection. Your and my thoughts are not perfect. Our understandings are not perfect. We are operating in unredeemed flesh, which will only have an opportunity for perfection at a later time in another realm. Therefore, neither "your" or "my" pronouncements are completely truthful or perfect. Therefore what ever you say.... again, what ever you say will not qualify as THE truth.
The friendliest thing you could do might be to regroup and see how you with your specific giftings can be a help to this "wobbly" "old Lady" named Bellevue Baptist Church. "She" doesn't need us poking at her soar ribs. "She" needs our tender considerate love and attention. "She" needs each of "Her" caretakers to submit our time, talent, and treasure to Jesus so that as we minister to "Her" together "She" gets our best.
I would like for you to lead in this effort.
Thank You
Bratton: It is another example, from what we know so far, of people being known by what they are against, rather than what they are for."
There are quite a few "Thou Shalt Not's" in scripture. To be for Christ we must be against many things. That is one reason the world will hate us. Because we are 'against' rather than 'for' the things the world loves.
"Can we hold off on "Watergate mode," please, folks?"
Your pastor created his own Watergate when he withheld information about PW's pedophilia for 6 months.
Will tonights information change that? Will tonight's information negate 1 Corinthians 5?
Lindon said...
Bratton: It is another example, from what we know so far, of people being known by what they are against, rather than what they are for."
There are quite a few "Thou Shalt Not's" in scripture. To be for Christ we must be against many things. That is one reason the world will hate us. Because we are 'against' rather than 'for' the things the world loves.
When people are known exclusively as being against many things, yet not at all known for being for anything, those people are out of balance.
Surely you do not define Christianity as being exclusively "thou shalt nots," do you?
Your pastor created his own Watergate when he withheld information about PW's pedophilia for 6 months.
The use of initials is always interesting--why is it so pervasive?
We, the people of Bellevue, are hopefully finding out about why Pastor Gaines did what he did tonight. You, and those sharing a similar mindset, would be well served to hold your comments until the report is shared.
Will tonights information change that? Will tonight's information negate 1 Corinthians 5?
Tonight's information will, prayerfully, explain the circumstances surrounding Mr. Williams' departure.
As for "negating" Scripture, I'd go over times that's been done already, but 1) I've already noted it, and 2) I need to leave for church.
--Mike
Well, I was going to say thanks for posting the report for those of us who were not present this evening, but when I refreshed the page, the report disappeared. Nonetheless, whoever you are (I don't remember who posted it), thanks. I look forward to hearing the reports of those of you who were there tonight.
It will be interesting reading the blog tonight and tomorrow. My opinion is that we witnessed a very complete report by the investigative committee headed up by David Combs. There were criticism of all staff including Steve Gaines as to the handling of the Paul Williams situation. Will the posters be as aggressive in attacking Jamie Fish and Webb Williams as they were in attacking Steve Gaines for not coming forward?
If you will recall I posted last Sunday that the report would possible include critism of how Bro. Steve handled the situation. For weeks we have read suppositions and assumptions of those who were without knowledge to the full situation. Now it is time to allow God’s forgiveness to take place.
Here's the report posted on the Bellevue web site.
Thanks for the link, ed_t.
jmo, I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I have said on this blog that for every person who knew about this and did not report it, they too need to be held accountable. It looks like a lot of people dropped the ball in this situation.
What say you truthseekers, do Gaines, and the other ministers in the know regarding Williams, get by with a slap on the wrist?
"When people are known exclusively as being against many things, yet not at all known for being for anything, those people are out of balance."
It's funny, I guess it is how you see things. But what I have seen on this blog are people who are for:
1. Transparancy of leaders
2. Humble leaders
3. Transparancy of the church
4. Protecting the Bride of Christ
5. Following Scripture
6. Open communication
7. Total truthfulness
The list goes on.
socwork said...
Thanks for the link, ed_t.
jmo, I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I have said on this blog that for every person who knew about this and did not report it, they too need to be held accountable. It looks like a lot of people dropped the ball in this situation. "
Response: I would like to know who the "non-Bellevue psychologist" and the former retired staff member are that were not mentioned by name.
I'm off for tonight. I'll check for responses tomorrow.
Goodnight
Good question trollcates (or trollcakes as some prefer)...
I think some might be tempted to want to "close the book" on this since the "official report" has been given. Just because this report has been made public, doesn't mean this is over. What Gaines did is not ok (which I believe the report says that he admits this, which is great, but to say "case closed" is like having a murderer before a judge who confesses that he is indeed guilty of murder and the judge saying "it's ok, we forgive you. Let's just move on.") Same goes for the others who knew and said nothing.
I was at the meeting tonight and I am ashamed to say that there was NO accountability for those who knew about it. It was a total joke!
soc work said:
"I think some might be tempted to want to "close the book" on this since the "official report" has been given. Just because this report has been made public, doesn't mean this is over."
Response: LOL, LOL, LOL
That didn't take long.
Really off now.
Goodnight again!
trollcates, apparently that's all anyone ever gets around BBC when they make a "mistake of the head, not of the heart". At BBC, we believe in the Law of Forgiveness Without Consequences.
But that's "just my opinion". :)
"Stupid is as stupid does." - Forrest Gump, great 20th century 'philosopher', and wiser than some some ministers.
Proverbs 24:7 ¶ Wisdom is too high for a fool: he openeth not his mouth in the gate.
I'm sorry you found that funny, heardenuf. This is not a laughing matter.
Honestly, at first I was surprised that something could be "laughable" about my post, but I shouldn't be surprised, should I? (Rhetorical question; no need to answer)
Just my opinion-
God's forgiveness has already taken place. It seems that you and others are unable or unwilling to distinguish between the concepts of "forgiveness" and "consequences of sin."
It appears that the final conclusion of those writing this report, in part, is this: SG knew that PW molested his son but had never experienced this kind of confession in his twenty plus years of ministry. Since he couldn't figure out on his own that this offense was worthy of immediate termination, he didn’t call a pastor friend, mentor, or child protection agency employee- instead he decided to do nothing.
NB: I did not read a reference of SG’s assertion that PW’s confession was “under the blood” in the official report.
I just read the online report. You could drive a mac truck through the gaping holes.
I am anxious to hear from David Brown. I wonder if he saw the glaring problems with some of the excuses given for not reporting this immediately.
Folks, can you imagine them saying the same thing about a treasurer who embezzeled years ago? Put that analogy along side this situation.
EZ is right. Gaines did not know how to handle this? Try the Bible! Gee Whiz! It is incredible. (Love the way they had legal 'counsel' write part of the report. Your tithe dollars at work, folks.)
Boy, PW's son knew it was not right and we also know it is not 'under the blood' as some thought. There are major ramifications for life. But, we sure want to protect the leaders over the abused. How shameful.
Folks, you deserve pastors and counselors who know scripture and follow it.
Seems to me that DC failed to ask the one question that many of us want to know the answer to. What are the consequences of the admitted mistakes by all BBC staff involved?
psalm 43:3 said,
It appears that the final conclusion of those writing this report, in part, is this: SG knew that PW molested his son but had never experienced this kind of confession in his twenty plus years of ministry. Since he couldn't figure out on his own that this offense was worthy of immediate termination, he didn’t call a pastor friend, mentor, or child protection agency employee- instead he decided to do nothing.
Good synopsis... it's certainly not rocket science, is it?
Proverbs 13:16 ¶ Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge: but a fool layeth open his folly.
You guys will never be satisfied.
You probably all went into the service with a closed-mind and your decision on the outcome before the baptism even began! How sad!
Try having an open mind for a change and realize that Bellevue isn't out to lie to you with everything that is said from the puplit. Honestly, folks....
James 4: 11-12
Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?
Not "under the blood," under the bushel.
Am I the only one who thought that the answer from the committee pertaining to if Rogers knew was not a definite answer?
On the contrary Ace. I do commend the committee for the report they've put forward. However, it does seem to be severely lacking in consequences for the problems they've uncovered wouldn't you say?
Proverbs 13:20 ¶ He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed.
I just thought I was fed up efore tonight!!!!!
i just cannot believe my eyes and ears!!
We must continue to hold these men accountable!!
Why would they only investigate PW for the last 17 years??
Why did they not investigate him for his entire time at BBC?
17 years ago is just when we know of.
if it were not for the children and victims I would throw up my hands and walk away!!
I wish that I could say that I feel better after tonight, but instead, I have been slapped across the face.
As I listened to the report tonight, I could not belive what I was hearing. Jamie Fish knew and he gets to keep his job? Gaines takes responsibility but states that this is a new era w/o precedent? Has he ever heard of THE CATHOLIC CHURCH???
For me to sit there and listen to this was insulting.
After the report was over and we were dismissed, I felt compelled to go up to David Coombs, head storyteller and tell him this:
PEDOPHILIA THRIVES IN SILENCE
to which he did a little laugh, and said, " HUH?"
So I repeated myself:
PEDOPHILIA THRIVES IN SILENCE
To which he laughed in my face!!! And then I asked him, " do you think this is funny?" and he just laughed again.
I stormed off, furious. And then I started to cry. Several saw me and when I told them what happened, one of the men that happened to have been standing there when I talked to Coombs verfied that he did, in fact, laugh at me.
Another man that was there suggested that we go and discuss it with Coombs. I did not want to go, but was eventually persuaded to do so.
When I confronted him, he DENIED it. The witness to it told him that he had seen it, too. He still denied it. He said that he did not remember talking to me.
About 7 to 10 minutes had passed since he had laughed in my face. And even with a witness standing there, he denied it.
Well, as an adult incest survivor, all of this behavior was eerily familiar to me.
I am no longer sweet and nice when confronting a bully, as David Coombs is. He was not going to bully me. I was forced to submit to a bully as a preteen and I know what happens.
I looked DC straight in the face and called him a liar. Right or Wrong, I did it. I am not proud of that, but I felt it was something I had to do, becuase I knew that he knew that I knew he was lying.
Let's not forget that his man had my very sensitive file this month. He is not a counselor, yet after I called the children's department and requested my file, HE called ME to tell me that HE had it. I have not been happy about that. Where had my file been? Sitting on his desk for anyone to see?
It wasn't long after that that I received an email from "ACE" telling me that he knew exactly who I was. Who is Ace? Is he a staff member? He sounds like it, and if so, how did he come to know who I was?
I have had just about enough from the self serving men at BBC. The fact that David Coombs laughed at me and my statement about Pedophilia should tell you how they REALLY feel..Not what they SAID at the pulpit.
David Coombs should be ashamed of himself.
I am ashamed of him.
I know what needs to be done. I am going to go tomorrow and buy Gaines a real good study Bible. Probably the ESV. (50 bucks!) I know he makes a lot of money but I think the man needs a Bible. He admits he did not know what to do and it is right there in scripture in black and white. I will highlight those passages for him.
Overflowinggrace!
After the nasty unchristian way that you treated Mom4 earlier, how dare you start quoting scripture on judging.
Koragg,
Am I the only one who thought that the answer from the committee pertaining to if Rogers knew was not a definite answer?
Not me. It was pretty clear that they said they had no knowledge of Dr. Rogers knowing.
Its not clear from the report, but does this "close the book" on this matter as far as BBC (SG) is concerned? I saw some follow-up items like training and developing procedures, but are there to be any disciplinary actions against SG, Fish, and WW?
If this closes the case, what do the regular posters here want to accomplish moving forward? Do they want SG to resign? Should he be fired? Should Fish and WW be fired? What needs to happen to begin to bring this to an acceptable closure so BBC can begin to heal? I'm honesty asking these questions.
Does anyone who was at the service have a gauge on how this report was received by the congregation? Relief that its "over"? Disgust? Disappointment?
I am glad you shared that with us, sickofthelies. I am very glad it is documented on this blog. I suggest you write it down with names and times it occurred and the witnesses.
That man sounds very sick. Evil. To laugh at something like that.
Also document when Ace communicated that he knew who you were along with the information about your file and those conversations.
One major glaring hole is that witnesses may have not felt comfortable with this 'investigation' since they knew it was slanted toward protecting people.
Somebody posted this yesterday:
Sory, you have it wrong on this one. Fact, no media will be allowed in.
They were wrong, I was right. Nice "fact." I am waiting for my apology from the people who attacked me yesterday about this issue. The media WAS there. If your pride stops you from apologizing, it's okay...it's understandable.
Esther,
Also document when Ace communicated that he knew who you were along with the information about your file and those conversations.
Go ahead and document that, I really don't care. I don't have anything to hide. Do you want me to post all of your "real" names here? I'll do it in a heartbeat, just give me the word.
Sick,
It wasn't long after that that I received an email from "ACE" telling me that he knew exactly who I was. Who is Ace? Is he a staff member? He sounds like it, and if so, how did he come to know who I was?
This blog isn't about 'Ace,' remember? My identity doesn't matter, sorry. Nobody knows who I am and it will stay that way.
I am sorry the you were hurt by the whole report and by Mr. Coombs. I am praying for you.
Chazzo,
Ace. Really young man, now that we know who you are, and understand your relation to that tight inner circle, your posts don't even carry the weight of their ink.
Gossip. Don't try to put thoughts in all the bloggers' minds that I am in the inner circle. You do know know that, so it is gossip. Say it with me now, G-O-S-S-I-P.
Really, you should know better by now...
I honestly thought the report seemed to be through. The one area that seems to really be missing are the action items as far as staff are concerned. Will they be sending SG and the others mentioned as having made serious common sense mistakes to some remedial training of some sort? Will some sort of write-up go into their permanent files? Or is it just "under the blood" and move on?
Proverbs 26:4 ¶ Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
Ace,
May I give you the word? If so here ya go; type!
Ace wrote: Esther,
Also document when Ace communicated that he knew who you were along with the information about your file and those conversations.
Go ahead and document that, I really don't care. I don't have anything to hide. Do you want me to post all of your "real" names here? I'll do it in a heartbeat, just give me the word."
What would be the point? I am sure you have already given the names to the leaders at church.
Ju,
I honestly thought the report seemed to be through.
As did I.
Brad,
Ace,
May I give you the word? If so here ya go; type!
I'm not sure what you mean by this? Are you encouraging me to keep on posting/
Esther,
What would be the point? I am sure you have already given the names to the leaders at church.
Why don't you ask SickofTheLies on what the full account of my email said? She failed to mention of the main point of my message.
Ester, you could use some Biblical understanding yourself.
Sickofthis, you haven’t the simplest discernment about yourself. The Catholic church was dealing with ministers molesting children at the church. This was a different circumstances of a single victim which was the son of the minister.
Honestly, I am disappointed that many of you confess Christianity but have no compasion for this situation. To know that fellow believers have taken the position of some of you is extremely disappointing. How may I ask are you glorifying Christ with the anger and bitterness in your hearts.
Consequences, someone asked! Do you not believe that this has effective Steve Gaines in a negative way. How much suffering will he need to go through for you to be pleased. You are not the judge....God is the Judge!
You said all you needed was "the word" to reveal names...so I thought I'd give you "the word". Nevermind.
Ace - go ahead and post my real name "in a heartbeat." I AM GIVING YOU THE WORD. Put up or shut up.
Or was that just an "empty threat" by someone who is getting emboldened by all the brazen intimidation he sees others getting away with at Bellevue. So ACE, either publish my name here, or please don't ever threaten to do so "in a hearbeat." Remember, several people DO know who you are, and they CAN be made to talk eventually...and under the right circumstances. :)
Chazzo,
Ace, By the way, I am Charlie Barrett. My name is and has been on my profile.
Hi Charlie, it's nice to meet you.
Belly up to the bar SC. Put your name on your profile.
Nope, not gonna happen. Thanks for the suggestion, though.
1st Timothy 3:1 ¶ This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Pepper,
How did I mistreat her?
Ace,
Enough of that, please friend.
You come here and speak of peoples intentions for their words and action (and last I heard, you're not God), and do so without a (circum)speck of curiosity of those to which you toady(also, not God).
From Jim H. to absolutely "all" of us strays in attendance tonight, from whence do you derive the wisdom to know the hearts and histories of those of here who know that healing cannot begin as long as justice is being swept under the rug?
Short answer: nothing remotely divine.
blessings to you--may you have health and happiness and the causes of happiness; and all that you love.
Mo Scratch,
Ace - go ahead and post my real name "in a heartbeat." I AM GIVING YOU THE WORD. Put up or shut up.
I do not know your name but I know quite a few of the bloggers names here who post under 'screennames' and attack other people because they think people don't know who they are.
Or was that just an "empty threat" by someone who is getting emboldened by all the brazen intimidation he sees others getting away with at Bellevue.
There was no threat, no intimidation.
Remember, several people DO know who you are, and they CAN be made to talk eventually...and under the right circumstances. :)
Post away, I have nothing to hide. But like I said, I am not playing the "who are you" game anymore so I am not going to confirm or deny anything.
Just My Opinion,
Perhaps I could reference a point of Bible study for you. It appearst that you are poorly versed.
I Corinthians 6:1-5
1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
"Ester, you could use some Biblical understanding yourself."
I am open to being rebuked. What I am not open to is twisting of scripture.
"Sickofthis, you haven’t the simplest discernment about yourself. The Catholic church was dealing with ministers molesting children at the church. This was a different circumstances of a single victim which was the son of the minister."
Are you absolutely positively sure of this? And if it is one incident, why was he there for 7 mos after Gaines knew? He is the leader who supposed to know scripture. Why ignore scripture? Does that not scare you?
"Honestly, I am disappointed that many of you confess Christianity but have no compasion for this situation. To know that fellow believers have taken the position of some of you is extremely disappointing. How may I ask are you glorifying Christ with the anger and bitterness in your hearts."
PW's son could have used some compassion during those 7 mos. Even he knew his father should not have been on staff as a minister. Spare me your twisted version of compassion. It is very twisted.
"Consequences, someone asked! Do you not believe that this has effective Steve Gaines in a negative way. How much suffering will he need to go through for you to be pleased. You are not the judge....God is the Judge!"
God left us with the WORD to follow. The WORD is the JUDGE for HERE and now.
Gaines will do just fine... making lots of money and being a celebrity pastor helps to allievate his horrible suffering. And, he is off to lots of speaking engagements to help him forget!
MemphisMom,
Jamie Fish is still on staff.
In reading through this report, there was one area that I read that just chilled me to the bone. If I read it correctly, Paul Williams’ wife and his son and daughter-in-law would not allow him to pick up his own grandchildren from Sunday School. Yet…he was allowed to roam the halls of Bellevue for seventeen years around your children and your neighbor's children! Remember Rachel's letter? How fast this was all carried out? Do you really think that anybody was watching Williams’ that closely. Nobody even knew he had done anything like this…nobody knew he had raped a young boy. Nobody knew there was even a reason for him to be watched. If he would rape his own son, he’d rape anybody’s child! Then when the son reached the point that he could no longer handle this…he goes to the senior pastor for help. Can you imagine what it took for him to do this? Then, the senior pastor passes it off like it was nothing…he didn’t know what to do? Come on! Doesn’t the man have Dr. in front of his name? Didn’t he learn anything in all those years of going to school. Has he read the Bible? Again…1 Cor. 5! Maybe he was to busy working on getting the Holy Land tours booked? Or going to too many speaking engagements? Making another dollar. I’m sorry folks…nothing is more important that protecting our children! And you are head of a church like Bellevue…and you have a known child molester walking the halls under your command and you do nothing? Remember here now…Williams’ own family wouldn’t allow him around his own grandchildren! I just hope that seventeen years from now (or less) we don’t hear from another young man…needing guidance from the senior pastor because he was molested by Williams. I really think that most any of us could have given Steve Gaines advice on how to have handled this. “Call the authorities” would be a good start.
Emotions are running high, and understandably so. Can we, as the body of Christ, not agree to take even a one-evening moratorium on destroying each other's spirits with our threats, our words, our judgment? Can we agree to love each other through this horrid mess and be sensitive to the pain others have gone through and are continuing to endure? Can we take a break, sleep on this, pray it through, and THEN post tomorrow ... or however long it takes us to regain our composure and be Christlike to one another?
I'm not trying to judge anyone, so please don't anyone take it that way. Just making a gentle effort to remind us all (myself included) Whose we are. Let's not cheapen the sacrifice of our Lord by lowering ourselves to the least common denominator of behavior toward one another. Many of us are hurting -- we need to be seeking God's face instead of seeking to have the last word. Deal, anyone?
Koragg said...
Am I the only one who thought that the answer from the committee pertaining to if Rogers knew was not a definite answer?
It seemed to me that they did not want to admit that Dr. Rogers did not know it. In the full report it states that Paul Williams stated without contradiction by any witness, that he had not told Dr. Rogers. JMO
your snide sarcastic remark about how much time she spent on this site.
I never mentioned the Bellevue mess to my daughter as well, but she picked right up on it.
If I didn't know better, I would think that a lot of the posting going on here was a secular political site.
From Psalms 5:
You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell.
5 The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong.
6 You destroy those who tell lies; bloodthirsty and deceitful men the LORD abhors.
A person can be compassionate without dismissing the fact that our sin has consequences. All of it.
Wanting justice to be done does not equal being full of anger and bitterness. God is a God of justice as well as grace. And He is holy and will not be mocked.
Maybe it's a good time (when isn't?) for us to all be reminded of this:
Matthew 12:36
But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.
Chazzo,
I don't have to play a name game with you. I know and you now know I know. Your lack of transparency
is not amazing.
I know that you have absolutely no idea who I am. End of discussion.
Josh,
Were you there tonight? When do you go back to school?
Pepper,
I did not mean to offend...thats just the way it looks to me. This is a big deal in our home and even extended family. We are heart broken and praying for unity in our church. Many have been very harsh to me, but it seems to be ok when its focused towards the SG supporters. That being said, I am not perfect and need God's forgiveness everyday.
Proverbs 6:12 ¶ A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth.
13 He winketh with his eyes, he speaketh with his feet, he teacheth with his fingers;
14 Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth discord.
15 Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; suddenly shall he be broken without remedy.
sickofthelies- So all youi said to DC was "PEDOPHILIA THRIVES IN SILENCE"??
You all like Jamie Fish? he is mean too.
Dear Brothers and Sisters: I want to address a few things about Bellevue' reports.
The first is the admission that Paul was a victim too. I am so sorry for that but, I feel it is mentioned in an attempt to explain Paul's actions with his son. Let me be very clear about this. Yes, many victims do become abusers, but it is wrong to assume all victims will be abusers. I was abused yet I have NEVER abused. As adults we are accountable for our own actions.
Much has been said that "they did just did not know how to deal with this." PLEASE. Who really wants to buy that line? I am thankful and I do praise the Lord that as far was we know there has not been any other abuse from this minister. BUT, please note the extradinatory steps in the report the victim took to protect his children from his father. Yet our own church did not think it was necessary to report it, investigate it, or remove the minister. And they have the gaul to tell us our children were and are safe? I don't think so.
Also please note in the report that NOT one of these ministers on staff took any action to report it. WHY? For the record, the report mentions that they had confirmation from outside sources (blog, WMC-TV, Commercial Appeal) this matter was reported BEFORE they had a chance to. On December 8th, the day after I became aware of a possible pehophile on staff, I called DCS. At that time I did not know who it was but I was not going to take any chances. The Bellevue leaders, between the lot of them, had to have a meeting to discuss it and still they took no action to report it. That is deplorable and shameful. Someone has asked would there be an outcry for their heads, yes there will be. These are the same excuses I have heard from the Catholic Church for too long.
Folks when we quit relying on the Word of God; when we quit standing on HIS principles, we are asking for diaster. This abuse was not a one time thing according to some defenders here. It occurred over a 12-18 month period. Imagine yourself haveing the endure that! It was horrible for this young man. Put yourself in his shoes for one mintue. This young man has more integrity that the leadership of Bellevue. He knew how to deal with this and he did ask why. But the leadership ignored his pleas. How shameful.
I am going to be in much prayer over this report. While it does address some important issues, it is not entirely accurate. In time you will come to understand why. I just ask that you join me in prayer.
In closing, once again and until the day the Lord says my job is done down here; if you ever suspect a child is abused, being abused, was abused or may have been abused, YOU REPORT IT, IMMEDIATELY. This is one time you do not follow the horrible example of the Bellevue leadership, YOU REPORT IT.
I love you and and thank you so much for your prayers and support.
Please be viligent and ever on guard in protecting our children. We cannot fail the innocent.
David Brown
SNAP coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis
Noname,
You all like Jamie Fish? he is mean too.
How is he mean? Jamie Fish is one of the nicest people I know.
The press was at Bellevue. David Coombs was interviewed. Check the news.
Psalm 50:16 ¶ But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare my statutes, or that thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth?
17 Seeing thou hatest instruction, and castest my words behind thee.
18 When thou sawest a thief, then thou consentedst with him, and hast been partaker with adulterers.
19 Thou givest thy mouth to evil, and thy tongue frameth deceit.
20 Thou sittest and speakest against thy brother; thou slanderest thine own mother’s son.
21 These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes.
22 Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest I tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver.
23 Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me: and to him that ordereth his conversation aright will I shew the salvation of God.
David Brown,
The press was at Bellevue.
Thanks for confirming this. I was attack yesterday when I said they would be there. I was told I lied and it is a fact that media is not allowed.
Thanks for clearing this up.
Friendnjax,
My thoughts. In order for JF and WW to be fired the one to fire them would first have to fire himself making the firing of JF and WW by SG problematic.
Let's try the biblical approach.
So... let see the Word of God says... oh phooey... what does it say again? I keep forgetting.... and every time I forget.... I get a free pass.... boomerang!
Is it in Phillips 6:6 the clears up like "Clearasil" the notion that there really is a bottomless pit into which god throws our consequences? More confusion, ugh!
Folks, the Investigative committee and the Personnel Committee are finished. The next committee will be the Legal Response Committee. Sounds reasonable to me.
Consider it ALL joy my brothers and sisters in Christ while we pray and while we wait for the next development for those inside BBC by those in authority outside of BBC. In the mean time try to enjoy some Pistachio Almond ice cream with your friends.
Who says you can’t eat to make yourself feel better?
Good night
From the savingbellevue site:
Today Dday January 28th 2007
How mature!!!
sickofthelies
I cannot believe that Mr. Coombs would laugh in your face and then, minutes later, deny having done it when approached by yourself and a witness!
I am SO SORRY this happened to you!
I have no explanation for his actions.
I am so troubled by this. I really feel that it is an evil act -- and performed by a once, supposedly, godly man.
Again, I am so sorry. I am at a loss for words.
"I love you and and thank you so much for your prayers and support.
Please be viligent and ever on guard in protecting our children. We cannot fail the innocent. "
God Bless you, David. I am so grateful for what you do.
I am not one for forced apologies, but YOU really need to speak to to MQM4. You owe her an explaination, not me.
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