Today's news coverage:
The Commercial Appeal's coverage is here.
Channel 5's coverage is here. Tune in at 5:00 p.m., 6:00 p.m., and 10:00 p.m.
FOX13's coverage is here, here, and here. Tune in at 5:00 p.m. and 9:00 p.m.
Channel 3's coverage is here. Tune in at 6:00 p.m. and 10:00 p.m.
Channel 24's coverage is here.
WREC Radio (AM 600) - The Mike Fleming Show which airs from 4:00 p.m. to 7:00 p.m. daily will likely have discussion. Live internet streaming can be accessed here.
The latest from Bellevue's site is here.
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512 comments:
1 – 200 of 512 Newer› Newest»I'm satisfied with the resolution to this issue. However, while I am satisfied, I still feel that Gaines should still be held accountable for failing to report it.
I agree. Gaines is accountable. He is accountable to God. I am not certain that tithe contributed to the church should have been used to pay PW's salary to date.
Steve Gaines needs to go. He looked the other way and allowed PW to have full reign of our church, exposing children and women to his perversion.
It does not matter what steve gaines did or did not do prior to June of 06.
He has shown himself to be arrogantly indifferent to the innocence of the children at BBC.
I would be very sad to see him go to jail..I truly would, I would not wish that on anyone, however, at the very least, he needs to leave.
As far as the tithes that were used to pay Paul Williams from June until now, I think that SG needs to pay the church back for that amount of money.
I think that Steve has a gift that he is misusing...he could be a WONDERFUL pastor..he is already a good evangelist, but his heart does not seem to be in the right place to lead a large group of people.
I feel so very sorry for his wife and children, that he is putting them through this. His decisions have brought all of this on himself and his family.
How I wish that the excitement I felt when he was called, I could still feel now.
I am so hurt by his hiding Paul Williams. I just cannot imagine what would cause him to do such a thing. You would think that a man with a PHD would know better.
WHY? Dr. Gaines? WHY??? Why are you putting our wonderful church through this?
Please, tell the truth. I am pleading with you..TELL THE TRUTH!!
God will take care of you and protect you, if you will just clean your heart and tell the truth.
May God bless you and your sweet family.
As I mentioned first last night, PW is gone. I also asked that everyone wait on the full report. As for the June confession, to those that have said they were in the room or they know someone that was in the room...it's not very likely. You will have a better understanding if you come Sunday night and you will be in a much easier position to forgive Brother Steve.
Sometimes I wonder...
There are many who are encouraging and begging Steve Gaines to tell the truth. "Stop the lies", they say. "Come clean", they say.
I for one have no idea of what the real truth in this matter actually is. I am, however, willing to speculate that the only people who really know the truth behind most of the rumors and accusations regarding Steve Gaines are God and Steve Gaines himself.
If Steve Gaines was in fact to tell the truth about any question asked him...would anyone that is begging him to tell the truth actually believe him? Or are they past the point where they would believe anything he says?
When someone deceives us, even on something small, that person loses all credibility with us. Forgiveness is easy. It's trust that is hard.
For those who think that Steve Gaines isn't telling the truth (and I have no idea whether or not he is, because all we have are the words and testaments of other human beings, and humans are fallible), the question I would like to pose is this...
What would it take for you to believe that Steve Gaines is telling the truth?
And if there is nothing he could do to earn your trust ever again, then what steps should be taken to separate yourself from a liar? And how far are you prepared to go to do so?
Scion,
After all that has happened, and his ' itty bitty fence' explanation, and now this..I have no idea how I could ever believe anything he says again. I do not say this with glee. It saddens me more than you wil ever know. I am left without a pastor that I can trust.
Overflowing, it appears that you are desperate to whitewash this into something that is clean and wholesome. What in the world do you think that SG's explanation would be that would make you think that we could just forgive him.
Do you understand the seriousness of child sexual abuse? From all your posts ( I have been lurking for sometime) it appears that you just shrug it off as something that we can just move on from.
There is NO GOOD EXPLANATION for SG to allow PW to remain on staff and around chidlren for 6 months. NONE. And if you think that he is going to come up with something that is going to make us all go, " OHHHHH, well, then, THAT makes it ok" ..you truly do not understand child sexual abuse.
I pray that your children or your grandchildren do not ever suffer from this horrible CRIME, and then have someone who is insensitive insenuate that there is a perfectly logical explanation for allowing the perpetrator to be around children.
Sick of the Lies,
All I said is wait until Sunday. I have said several times that I would join your side if PW confessed the truth to SG back in June. I have a 2 year old and a NB, believe me the thought of PW being near my children scares the heck out of me. I also work in the nursery and understand that we have one of the best church nurseries in the country. I'm also aware that PW was on staff for 34 years, so he has been a liar for all of those 34 years, fooling many people, even Dr. Rogers. I think he is very capable of telling SG a believable lie also.
I understand how sick PW is, I vote for the death penalty. SG is not a child molestor and should not be treated like one.
AOG,
The only option you see is for SG to go. I understand. Where does that leave the vast majority of the church body and leadership that disagree. Should we vote for SG to leave and follow him out the door. Please don't take this the wrong way, I really want to know the answer.
Overflowing,
You make some good points about PW being a good liar. I'm sure he fooled many in those 34 years. Being able to fool Dr. R. is quite a task.
However, as in the catholic priest situation, the adults that cover up the pedophiles need to be held accountable.
Are you saying that if you learn PW confessed to SG in June that he was a child molester, that you would call for Sg's resignation?
We can't go back and undo the past 34 years. We can, however, look at the decision that SG made in June...and knowing this, are we sure that he would not do this again? How can we trust that he could not cover up another situation if it was in HIS best interest to do so?
His trust is gone with me, sadly. This does not make me happy. I am profoundly sad this evening.
Sick,
June Meeting=No Lies, Straight Truth
I can't imagine a scenario where I would not vote to fire SG in that situation.
Dear Overflowing: I posted this earlier on the other thread. No it will not be all over Sunday night. I am not talking about the DCS invesigation.
For those of you like JMO that dispute the reporting of this crime, please go to Channel 3 news site and read the comments from the asst DA, Kevin Rardin. I think it is very clear.
Here is what I posted earlier:
Dear brothers and sisters: Let me suggest there will two reports coming out this weekend.
Before you are start in on me wanting to know; who, what, where, when. I am not going to say anymore about it than what you have seen here. I just ask you wait and be in prayer.
As some have suggested in the past there are two sides of this story. You will hear one Sunday night and the other side very soon. You can then decide which one is the TRUTH.
I am not playing games with anyone on here. When you hear this report and its source you will know what I am talking about.
I ask once again to PLEASE be in prayer for the Committee.
David Brown
SNAP coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis
AOG,
Thanks for the response...really doesnt answer my question. So should this go on for the next 5 years?
David,
I will wait and see. I listened to Kevin Rardin and heard him say in certain circumstances. I don't believe we have those. I have no desire to get in a debate but if you have some inside info, that means Rardin must be talking to you about the investigation (which you have indicated). It's really disappointing that he is doing so much talking...when I have called, he has not returned my calls.
scion said...
"What would it take for you to believe that Steve Gaines is telling the truth?"
I would believe the truth would be exposed in an open meeting where every one involved with the situations at hand were allowed to give their side of the story. There is a lot of documented evidence that is not being heard by the leadership's front men that are out there defending the guilty parties without having all of the facts, not all of it is about Paul Williams, but about everything that is going on behind the scenes in it's entirety. If Steve Gaines is telling the truth, it will be revealed for all to know. Why is he afraid of it?
Examine the vital signs.
Don't be quick to disagree, just follow the diagnostic procedures.
On December 16, the pastor acknowledged being made aware of a "moral failure" in June. He did not elaborate on that "moral failure", so therefore no one knows what was truly said in that meeting. He also stated that he had been made aware several weeks prior to the announcement that this issue was not resolved.
The statement was carefully prepared and did not mention that there were any differences between the “moral failure” that he had been made aware of six months prior to being confronted with the fact this issue was not resolved. For the benefit of the doubt let’s assume that there was a mistake in that statement and it should have clarified the difference between the “moral failures” of each meeting.
With the assumption in mind that there was a difference between the “moral failures” of each meeting, assume that since the statement did not clarify that point, it became wide spread that there were not two distinct “moral failures” discussed in each meeting. Suppose that since the statement did not have the clarity to make that distinction that it was creating a great deal of confusion within the church. However, the pastor knowing of the confusion and outrage that was being generated by this misconception decided that nothing should be done to correct the communication.
Also with the same assumption in mind, imagine that a well-known leader in the Christian community was asked about his opinion of what should be done in the case of a Pastor failing to act on such a “moral failure”. Assume that the Christian leader was quoted as saying that such a pastor should resign for such a failure. However, the pastor still did not believe that the misconstrued statement warranted correction.
Assume that governmental authorities became involved and because of that misconstrued statement the pastor may be facing criminal charges. However, the pastor still did believe that there was a reason to correct that original statement.
It will require a great deal of faith in a man to believe that despite the overwhelming uproar from numerous sources that he would fail to clarify that statement.
Conclusion:
That pastor might not necessarily have a bad heart, but lacks the wisdom necessary to lead a church.
Now assume that the “moral failures” in each meeting were identical.
Conclusion:
That pastor might not necessarily have a bad heart, but lacks the wisdom necessary to lead a church.
AOG,
Spare me the lecture. You can say in a previous post that SG must go and that all trust is gone, but you can't answer my question. How about an opinion, I'm sure you have one. Is the Holy Spirit not speaking the majority of BBC members.
Dear Overflowing: You often rail people on here for making ridiculous statements and assumptions. You just make a whole bunch of them. Please go read what I read from the quote on Channel 3 by Kevin Rardin. For the record I have NOT spoken to Kevin in several weeks. He would never tell me anything of an investigation if he had any information, nor would I dare ever ask. How dare you to suggest otherwise. You are so wrong to making those assumptions.
You are right, I don't think you want to debate me on this.
Several of you were imploring those posting on here to wait until we had the full story. Now I am asking the same thing. Why is that wrong? Don't you want to hear the full truth? I certainly do.
As I said last night there are a whole lot of assumptions that many people are making that are wrong. In time you will understand too. Then one can make their mind as who is telling the truth.
David Brown
SNAP coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis
Why was the church not told of this decision yesterday....It did not just happen...The church should have been informed before the media. Another Boon Doggle as far as I am concerned for the leadership of the church...Can the church not handle the truth that we have to be told by the nes media.
David,
What ridiculous statments did I make.
I said I will wait and see and thats what I mean. I'm not doubting you. I listened to the wreg story as you instructed. I heard Rardin say in certain circumstances. I dont think he should be talking to you as you said a week ago. I'm not going back to find the post but you posted his number and a document verifying a DCS investigation. In that post you said that you just got off the phone from a long conversation with Rardin....YOUR WORDS
AOG,
If he stays, then should you keep trying to tear the church apart.
Lwood,
Try being positive for a change. Again, everything at Bellevue isn't corrupt. By I think you convinced yourself that it is and that is sad.
Diagnosis:
The heart may not be as infected as the mind.
Frontal lobotomy or separation of pastor from congregation is necessary.
Condition:
Terminal. Pastor may infect people and cause further illness.
"Lwood said...
Why was the church not told of this decision yesterday....It did not just happen..."
Response: Apparently it did happen yesterday according to channel 5. They said the personnel committee was informed of the final investigation and acted on one of the reccomendations...the firing of Paul Williams.
"The church should have been informed before the media."
Response: If Paul is fired, do you think he keeps it quiet until Sunday.? Should his son and other family be informed before the church? Would they keep it quiet until Sunday? Do you think the blog would not find out and post, thus making Bellevue look like they are hiding something?
"Another Boon Doggle as far as I am concerned for the leadership of the church..."
Response: As far as your concerned... very telling.
"Can the church not handle the truth that we have to be told by the nes media."
Response: Maybe if we wait patiently until Sunday, we will know more than the media reported. After all, they only said he was fired. Don't you think there is more in the report than that?
Dear Overflow: Yes I do talk to Kevin but it has not been in some time. Do you think this is the only case I am involved in? Trust me I wish it were so. I am involved in many other cases and victims besides this one. I have put them in touch with him. And I do talk to DCS, Shelby Coutnty Crime Victims Assistance Center as welll as the police too. If you read what his quote on Channel 3 was you will understand. He said the same thing in this interview that he told me. I guess he is wrong for saying that to Channel 3 then too. What part of any investigation did he reveal to me or has he ever?
NOTHIING.
Would you want to walk in my shoes? Would you like to deal with day and night? I will gladly let you. Remember this is strictly a volunteer effort. I am trying to shed light on this horrible evil and make an environment where victims feel safe in reporting their abuse.
Unfortunately I wish this was the only case of this type I am involved in but saddly it is not. There is too much of this evil crime around to suit me.
ace said...
Lwood,
"Try being positive for a change. Again, everything at Bellevue isn't corrupt. By I think you convinced yourself that it is and that is sad."
I agree, only the corrupt leadership, i.e. Steve Gaines, Mark Dougharty, Harry Smith, Chuck Taylor, Steve Tucker, John Caldwell, Dave Purdue and several others who have contributed to the present demise of Bellevue by either acting in their best interest rather than the best interest ofthe church or they are contributing to the cover-up and lies that are being spewed over a congregation that are blindly following a leader who is in so far over his head that he can't control the spin and is relying on his henchmen to silence the protest.
Ace,overflowing, 4545 and others here, if you are in any kind of position at all to bring this to a halt, you can begin with getting to the bottom of it with the truth. There are many out here who have documented the lies that have been told and are waiting to be able to tell them in front of the congregation. Why will you not allow it? Why are you all afraid of the truth. If we are wrong, WE will be the ones to suffer for it, not Steve Gaines or YOU! Think about this guys - there are facts that WILL come out and at this point, we may have to take out a full page ad in the CA to get the word out! Think think think!!!
ICU Nurse to Doc Bellevue said...
Diagnosis:
The heart may not be as infected as the mind.
Frontal lobotomy or separation of pastor from congregation is necessary.
Condition:
Terminal. Pastor may infect people and cause further illness."
Response: You slay me. (Sarcasm intende)
overflowing grace
Most of us want a pastor and leadership that is held accountable by the people they serve, who are open and transparent because there is nothing to hide, who allow open business meetings so we all have a voice, whose judgement and integrity we can trust because they line up with scripture, who, along with the congregation, will draft an updated set of bylaws to protect the integrity of our church .
When will we stop endeavoring to secure these things?
I hope, never.
I would hope all members, regardless of their opinion of Steve Gaines would see these things as necessary for a healthy, Christ-honoring church.
Sunday's report,either way, will not put an end to our problems.
David,
Hang tough, Brother!!!!!!
mom4 said:
I agree, only the corrupt leadership, i.e. Steve Gaines, Mark Dougharty, Harry Smith, Chuck Taylor, Steve Tucker, John Caldwell, Dave Purdue and several others who have contributed to the present demise of Bellevue by either acting in their best interest rather than the best interest ofthe church or they are contributing to the cover-up and lies that are being spewed over a congregation that are blindly following a leader who is in so far over his head that he can't control the spin and is relying on his henchmen to silence the protest."
Response: Please spare us with your exaggerations again. Facts please.
Ace,overflowing, 4545 and others here, if you are in any kind of position at all to bring this to a halt, you can begin with getting to the bottom of it with the truth. "
Response: Your version of the truth?
There are many out here who have documented the lies that have been told and are waiting to be able to tell them in front of the congregation. Why will you not allow it? Why are you all afraid of the truth."
Response: Are you afraid of the truth? Or are you just seeking the truth that suits your needs?
If we are wrong, WE will be the ones to suffer for it, not Steve Gaines or YOU!
Response:
Exactly. But will you own up to it? I doubt that many will.
Think about this guys - there are facts that WILL come out and at this point, we may have to take out a full page ad in the CA to get the word out! Think think think!!!
Response: When the facts do come out Sunday, you can tell me what you think then. Just wait a few more days before saying they are covering up the truth.
Patient heardenuf,
Diagnosis:
Totally Deaf.
Prescription:
Remove head from sand and clear ear canal.
"Nurse to OR..Stat"
Mom4,
Ace,overflowing, 4545 and others here, if you are in any kind of position at all to bring this to a halt, you can begin with getting to the bottom of it with the truth.
There is nothing to bring to a "halt." I wish you knew what you were talking about because quite frankly you do not.
There are many out here who have documented the lies that have been told and are waiting to be able to tell them in front of the congregation.
What lies have you documented? Feel free to keep your list as brief as possible and list...let's say...3 lies for me.
Why will you not allow it? Why are you all afraid of the truth.
The question is this...why are you afraid of the true? Oh wait, by admitting you were wrong it would hurt your pride. I guess that's understandable.
If we are wrong, WE will be the ones to suffer for it, not Steve Gaines or YOU!
You are suffering and you are making Steve suffer with you. That's SELFISH on YOUR part.
Think about this guys - there are facts that WILL come out and at this point, we may have to take out a full page ad in the CA to get the word out! Think think think!!!
Take an ad in the CA? Now *that* is sad...and pathetic.
David Brown,
God bless you and thank you for all that you do as an advocate for the victims of child sexual abuse. I'm praying for you!
piglet said:
"Sunday's report,either way, will not put an end to our problems."
Response: Finally something piglet and I agree on. ;)
The big question then is this. Will you continue to fight against Steve Gaines and those that support him if you are still in the "vast minority"? Or will you find another place where you will find a pastor and church that you described?
"ICU Nurse to Doc Bellevue said...
Patient heardenuf,
Diagnosis:
Totally Deaf.
Prescription:
Remove head from sand and clear ear canal."
Response: I thought you were being funny, but you can't get out of the persona huh! Oh well, happy posting and.. physician, heal thyself!
ace said:
"What lies have you documented? Feel free to keep your list as brief as possible and list...let's say...3 lies for me."
Response: I'm waiting to ace.
MOM4,
If you have evidence, I am begging you to present it. I promise my mind will be changed....if the evidence is real. You don't need a meeting. 3,5,13...600am...go for it. We are not that far apart, I just need facts.
David,
I did go to WREG as you said and the only thing I saw was the video. I didnt see any text.
I based my comments on the post from last week:
you said
"Of the many phone calls I have received tonight, one was from Kevin Rardin, the Asst. D.A. I was on the phone with him a very long time. Kevin does read this blog."
It sounds like you guys spoke about a lot more than yes there is an investigation.
Ace,
I will not argue with you and all the insults in your heart cannot provoke me. I stand on the truth and the truth of God's Word. There are facts and they will be presented in front of the church or in public one way or the other. I don't care if you believe me or not. Steve Gaines is solely responsible for his "hurt" and the hurt he has brought to Bellevue Baptist Church. This will not end until the truth is known, one way or the other.
You understand that a victim of this kind of abuse carries the scar for the rest of their life. When I was a adolecent in the 70s, there was nothing in the mainstream of society that addressed child sexual abuse, little discussed, no known safehavens and few prosecutions. The acknowledgement of this crime has matured slowly.
I was an adult before I divulged the incidents to any of my family, or recieved any counselling, and to this day, it is a matter to be swept under the rug--it's the dirty little secret. In other words, the sense of shame is compounded by the need to protect the fragile psyches in ones family or peer group and to not soil a reputation.
I assure you that this young man deserves every tear shed for your beloved church. In my faith, we have a practice called tonglen, meaning exchanging self for others--one empathizes with the suffering of another--say someone for whom you are praying--where their burden literally becomes your own, and it breaks your heart. In exchange, your offer your redeemed heart, pure and whole, with the wish that they have happiness and healing.
I don't believe I've honestly exchanged hearts with anyone, after all, I'm a backsliding Buddhist; but I do know that moving my mind in the direction of compassion makes me more compassionate.
I know y'all think it's voodoo (hey, but at least the tone is better), so not I'm suggesting anything; just say'n that perhaps you guys might get on the road to healing by looking out for the least of these, this young man, the children at Bellevue, the vulnerable, anyone who has been harmed in the aftermath, no matter how small.
You need a larger purpose once justice is metted. What or who is the church, after all?
Carol,
I will not argue with you and all the insults in your heart cannot provoke me.
How do you know that there are insults in my heart? I guess you're wrong again, sorry.
Steve Gaines is solely responsible for his "hurt" and the hurt he has brought to Bellevue Baptist Church. This will not end until the truth is known, one way or the other.
This is where you are wrong. Gaines did not hurt himself. You can thank the people of this blog and SavingBellevue.com for that.
There is no need for you to reply to this if you're just going to argue back with me otherwise I'm sure we'll just keep on going in circles.
"MOM4 said...
Ace,
I will not argue with you and all the insults in your heart cannot provoke me. I stand on the truth and the truth of God's Word. There are facts and they will be presented in front of the church or in public one way or the other."
Response:
If you would just tell us the facts, we could fire Steve and move on away from this blog. Just tell us what you know or at least a date when they will come out, just like the Sunday date for the final report.
Simply saying the truth will come out doesn't work.
heardnuff,
ditto, Show us the facts and we will join them. We need more than a picture of a fence.
heardenuf
The big question then is this. Will you continue to fight against Steve Gaines and those that support him if you are still in the "vast minority"? Or will you find another place where you will find a pastor and church that you described?
Piglet says:
Maybe you should read my recent post again. We are not fighting AGAINST steve Gaines, we are fighting FOR the things I mentioned. Steve Gaines can pick his own side.
overflowinggrace said...
heardnuff,
ditto, Show us the facts and we will join them. We need more than a picture of a fence.
Response: A distorted picture of a fence at that. LOL
I'm thankful for people like you,ace,bepatient and memphis who are continuing to ask, like myself, for those "facts" that are out there but never seem to surface.
At least they could say that they are unable to say for legal reasons and that on such and such date it will come out.
I'm all for truth, but I've got to see/read it first!
overflowing: "Spare me the lecture. You can say in a previous post that SG must go and that all trust is gone, but you can't answer my question. How about an opinion, I'm sure you have one. Is the Holy Spirit not speaking the majority of BBC members."
What I read is that he, personally, cannot sit under SG's leadership and that God would decide if he stays or goes. YOu do realize that God is capable of sending a great delusion and has done it in scripture several times. He is capable of hardening hearts to the truth.
As far as the Holy Spirit speaking to a majority, that is an incredible statement just on the face of it. People in mega's somehow start thinking in terms of numbers for everything. How many prophets in the Bible stood alone while everyone else thought they were nuts?
Look at the Duke investigation. The facts pointed in a totally different direction than what the accuser said.
Ace said
This is where you are wrong. Gaines did not hurt himself. You can thank the people of this blog and SavingBellevue.com for that
Piglet says
THIS BLOG GOT A PEDOPHILE OFF OF BBC CAMPUS NO THANKS TO SG!!!
Piglet says:
Maybe you should read my recent post again. We are not fighting AGAINST steve Gaines, we are fighting FOR the things I mentioned. Steve Gaines can pick his own side.
Response: I've read it again and many of your previous posts and I'll take your word that you are not fighting against Steve Gaines in spite of my disagreement from what I've read, but I think Steve Gaines and a lot of us have chosen our side. Why won't you let us have it?
Esther,
Don't even start with me. You and Mom4 need to get together and have a play-date. If you don't like a Mega church as you put it then you need to find a church that better fits you worship style.
Piglet,
THIS BLOG GOT A PEDOPHILE OFF OF BBC CAMPUS NO THANKS TO SG!!!
1) There is no need to yell. Please try to act mature.
2) So what you are....crime-fighting bloggers? If you think this blog/the SB website is solely resonsible for getting PW fired, then you are wrong.
heardenu said
If you would just tell us the facts, we could fire Steve and move on away from this blog. Just tell us what you know or at least a date when they will come out, just like the Sunday date for the final report.
Piglet says:
Then urge the staff to allow us to have the open door meeting that Tim requested ON CAMPUS to do that very thing! See if they will!
Piglet says
THIS BLOG GOT A PEDOPHILE OFF OF BBC CAMPUS NO THANKS TO SG!!!
Response: I wouldn't take credit for what Paul's son sacrificed(his privacy) so that you can build yourself up. I also think God allowed all of this including the 17 years for his glory, so I wouldn't take too much credit.
Ezekial,
Yep, we went with him to Union City and Gardendale....I think I remember that conversation in June too, now that I think about it.
Didn't SG apologize for those remarks since they offended so many people? I think he did. Why can you act your age and accept the apology? We aren't in 1st grade anymore, people. And FYI, I didn't find either of those remarks offensive. If you want the entire Gardendale video instead of the YouTube out of context video you might change your mind.
Ace
Ask David Brown what he thinks of this blog.
Ace, you lack the maturity to even have a full grasp of what we are dealing with here.
Piglet says:
Then urge the staff to allow us to have the open door meeting that Tim requested ON CAMPUS to do that very thing! See if they will!
Response": LOL. Do you think I have that much influence. Perhaps I do, but if you posted it here, I guarantee you would get your meeting. Must the truth, be conditional on a meeting?
Otherwise, I don't believe you. You offer no reason to believe you.
JMO, if it were not for the blog, we still would not know about PW.
VERY true, HeardEnuf...very true...
Piglet said...
Ace
Ask David Brown what he thinks of this blog.
Ace, you lack the maturity to even have a full grasp of what we are dealing with here."
Response: I know ace can respond for himself but please, lay off the specualtion on everyone's maturity/thought process etc.
How about some facts?
overflowinggrace said...
As I mentioned first last night, PW is gone. I also asked that everyone wait on the full report. As for the June confession, to those that have said they were in the room or they know someone that was in the room...it's not very likely. You will have a better understanding if you come Sunday night and you will be in a much easier position to forgive Brother Steve.
6:02 PM, January 22, 2007
-------
Please clarify...
Sounds like you're saying that in essense there is nothing to "forgive"; that his actions will be justified in our minds once we know the real story. Is that what you are saying.
Piglet,
Ask David Brown what he thinks of this blog.
I have talked t David Brown previously and I could honestly care less what anyone thinks about this blog. That's not an attack on Mr. Brown, but I'm saying I could care less on anybody's thoughts.
Ace, you lack the maturity to even have a full grasp of what we are dealing with here.
Thanks for your opinion.
concerned said...
JMO, if it were not for the blog, we still would not know about PW.
Response: You don't think his son had anything to do with this coming out?
heardenuf
If you would just tell us the facts, we could fire Steve and move on away from this blog. Just tell us what you know or at least a date when they will come out, just like the Sunday date for the final report.
Piglet says:
Because it's WRONG!
Are you AGAINST business meetings, transparent leadership, church bylaws, accountability, etc?
What kind of church do you want?
I don't get it.
Trollcates: "In my faith, we have a practice called tonglen, meaning exchanging self for others--one empathizes with the suffering of another--say someone for whom you are praying--where their burden literally becomes your own, and it breaks your heart. In exchange, your offer your redeemed heart, pure and whole, with the wish that they have happiness and healing."
The scriptures tell us to bear one anothers burdens. This actually means more than an "I'm Sorry". But we do not do it very much anymore in reality. In the early NT church that is exactly what they did sharing everything. This is because they were facing persecution and being a Christian usually meant loss of trade, influence, etc. Now, we are fat, rich and ignorant. We are more concerned with SG position than we are for the victim of an evil sin. It is just about the saddest thing I have ever witnessed from Christians.
HeardEnuf,
How about some facts?
I second this question. Or wait... we've been asking this for months and we barely get anything.
You guys are always the first to call someone immature, first to question someones salvation and the first to call names.
Hmmmm
CORRECTION:
My last post was a response to this statement:
Heardenuf: I've read it again and many of your previous posts and I'll take your word that you are not fighting against Steve Gaines in spite of my disagreement from what I've read, but I think Steve Gaines and a lot of us have chosen our side. Why won't you let us have it?
7:59 PM, January 22, 2007
Andrew,
I'm just saying wait until Sunday night. I think will have more knowledge of the facts than you do right now.
Thats all!!
ace said...
HeardEnuf,
How about some facts?
I second this question. Or wait... we've been asking this for months and we barely get anything.
Response: I know you know this, but for those that are more mature, I don't think they have anything and I love to call them on it in order to hold them accountable . I never expect any answers.
I can say Ace is immature because he is in his twenties and lacks the life experience that others here have.
He has refused to answer my pointed questions to him because he can't.
He says he's not speaking to me and then he does anyway.
It's not namecalling. It's an observation.
When do people who are defending Steve Gaines going to stop? What will be your "last straw"?
1. When in your wildest dreams did you think you'd hear about your pastor and some church leaders climb a fence to speak to a member of their church - get away from the motive and just think about the act - they ignored a No Tresspassing sign and climbed, creeped, jumped <-insert whatever verb you want here. They still crossd onto private property without permission.
2. When in your wildest dreams would you think about a pastor calling, saying or comparing a member of his church "Hezbollah" (Hezbollah[1] (meaning "party of God") is a Shi'a Islamic militia and political organization based in Lebanon.) Why would you even think that a pastor would call a member of his church a terrible name?
3. When in your wildest dreams would you think your church leadership would go to a church member to ask them to stop saying "amen" when the member got blessed because it distracted the pastor? Didn't Steve ask for an "amen" yesterday during his sermon?
4. When in your wildest dreams would you think your pastor kept a list against another minister because your pastor thought the other minister slighted the wife?
5. When in your wildest dreams would you think you'd be dressed down as a congregation by the Minister of Music because he perceived the congregation was not worshipping good enough?
6. When in your wildest dreams would you think your church's finance committee admitted to not praying over a decision to give a large amount of your tithe money to a church of another demonination.
7. When in your wildest dreams would you have to protect your children against a pedophile on the church staff that was kept on staff by a pastor that wasn't congnzant enough to realize he should report any suspected abuse immediately.
That's just a drop in the bucket of issues that have been addressed. Folks it's been 15 or so months since Steve Gaines arrived at our church. What happens at 18, 24, 36, 48 months down the road? Are you so sure of this man that you've known for a such a short time he's the man to continue to lead our church? In a dating relationship, you don't tend to show your warts and faults at the beginning of the relationship. What if the relationship between pastor and people is as good as it's going to be right now? Eventually, he and his leaders will do something that will directly affect you and your family. What if it's too late then? What if Steve Gaines and his leadership have so damaged the church by the time an issue directly affects you and your family that there's no semblance of the Bellevue you remember. Are you sure you want to continue to wait and see?
karen
Because it's WRONG!
Are you AGAINST business meetings"
Response: In a mega church, yes, nothing would ever get done. i.e. the communication comm. (slugfest)
, transparent leadership,
Response: I'm for that, but you can't reveal every single thing to 10-15 thousand people. (See above)
"church bylaws,"
Response: We have those, you may not like them, but we have them.
accountability, etc?"
Response: This is a big one for me. Do you realize how many committees there are and how many different people serve on those comm.? You want 1 on 1 accountability and in a megachurch, you can't have that.
"What kind of church do you want?"
Response: One like the one we've got, without the blog/savingbellevue crowd and I would be happy.
"I don't get it. "
Response: The second thing we agree on tonight! ;)
Piglet,
I can say Ace is immature because he is in his twenties and lacks the life experience that others here have.
And you know my age...how? Oh wait, you don't.
He has refused to answer my pointed questions to him because he can't.
I refuse to answer "what if" questions. That is a waste of time.
He says he's not speaking to me and then he does anyway.
I don't refuse to speak to you. Again, I refuse to answer your "what if" questions.
It's not namecalling. It's an observation.
Thanks for your opinion.
Karen,
Less damage will be done if you guys will move on or get over it.
Heardenuf
We NEED a meeting so you can see and hear the proof we have. Why would you believe anything posted here? You haven't up to this point.
A meeting with all parties present to give testimony and present evidence is logical.
You say you have no voice to call for a meeting.
Isn't that part of our problem? We have no real rules right now. Bylaws dated 1929 (which we aren't following those either BTW).
Piglet said...
I can say Ace is immature because he is in his twenties and lacks the life experience that others here have."
Response: Since when can you put an age number on maturity. Steve is 48 years old and I believe he has been called immature.
"He has refused to answer my pointed questions to him because he can't."
Response: And yet you refuse to answer ours. By the way, what did Ted say about Craig? I amy have missed your report back, so if you can point me to it, I would appreciate it.
"He says he's not speaking to me and then he does anyway.
It's not namecalling. It's an observation."
Response: And your opinion as well.
concerned said...
JMO, if it were not for the blog, we still would not know about PW.
8:05 PM, January 22, 2007
That is a truthful statement from this blog.
Piglet says
THIS BLOG GOT A PEDOPHILE OFF OF BBC CAMPUS NO THANKS TO SG!!!
Piglet , well said and another truthful statement from this blog.
Esther,I enjoy all of your posts I find you to be very insightfull --keep it up.
David Brown, Thank you for your work and dedication to those helpless victims of sex abuse.
OFG said
Less damage will be done if you guys will move on or get over it.
Piglet says:
It depends on what you consider damage. If there is corruption in the leadership,I would hope you would want to know and I would think a meeting might help to reach some resolution.
Leadership WLL NOT have business meetings.
Is that not slightly suspicious?
Piglet,
I will put up a $1000 for a room if you bring the facts.
The following do not count as facts:
1. Video of Jamie Parker
2. Pictures of a fence
3. Gardendale Video
Heardnuf
You and I once agreed that we should ALL pray for God's will in this, and that truth would prevail.
How can truth prevail if it is suppressed by those lying?
Any concerend member should press for this meeting, call the church, ask for a hearing on these issues.
What on earth is there to lose???
Unless there are things hidden...
"I also think God allowed all of this including the 17 years for his glory..."
Whoooaaaa!
Ok, I respectfully request that you expound on this, sir, because I don't think you can justify that under any circumstances. If you can make sense of that, maybe you can learn me premillinialism (did I spell that right?).
(Don't all jump in at once)
Me nice boy sometime. :)~
Piglet said...
Heardenuf
"We NEED a meeting so you can see and hear the proof we have. Why would you believe anything posted here? You haven't up to this point."
Response: I don't believe what has been posted to this point because it is all innuendo/insinuation/gossip/slander/exaggeration/specualtion.
Once again, I hereby promise, I will believe you and what you say if you can state something as fact and substantiate it with names and first...I'll even take second hand knowledge at thjis point.
"A meeting with all parties present to give testimony and present evidence is logical."
Response: And I believe you'll get that meeting if you show reason(facts) for that meeting to occur. Not just another venting session.
"You say you have no voice to call for a meeting."
Response:
I didn't ay that I said:
"LOL. Do you think I have that much influence. Perhaps I do..."
You really need to try cutting and pating direct quotes, it really does help for all here.
"Isn't that part of our problem? We have no real rules right now. Bylaws dated 1929 (which we aren't following those either BTW). "
Response: No, I don't think that is part of our problem at all.
Heardenuf said
And yet you refuse to answer ours. By the way, what did Ted say about Craig? I amy have missed your report back, so if you can point me to it, I would appreciate it.
Piglet says:
You stated that Craig has admitted there were no problems with the credit cards. I was talking about salary and salary advances.
However, I still want to talk to Ted, but I didn't see him Sunday.
Karen,
1. When in your wildest dreams did you think you'd hear about your pastor and some church leaders climb a fence to speak to a member of their church
*sigh* He apologized and asked for forgiveness. Can we not forgive him?
get away from the motive and just think about the act - they ignored a No Tresspassing sign and climbed, creeped, jumped <-insert whatever verb you want here. They still crossd onto private property without permission.
Were charges pressed? No...so what's the big deal? If it was one, then I think some would have been pressed. It makes me start to wonder why Mr. Sharpe didn't press charges, considering he is Mr. Neighborhood watch and the first to call the police whenever somebody's grass is 1/8th of an inch above neighborhood regulations. Yes, I am exaggerating there, but I wonder who the neighborhood troublemaker is? Hmm... I'll let you answer that for yourself.
2. When in your wildest dreams would you think about a pastor calling, saying or comparing a member of his church "Hezbollah" (Hezbollah[1] (meaning "party of God") is a Shi'a Islamic militia and political organization based in Lebanon.) Why would you even think that a pastor would call a member of his church a terrible name?
Steve Gaines never called Mark Sharpe Hezbollah. You know that, as well as I do. For others reading who want the truth, please email me at acefrombbc@gmail.com - I'm afraid to post it here because I will be attacked, as usual.
3. When in your wildest dreams would you think your church leadership would go to a church member to ask them to stop saying "amen" when the member got blessed because it distracted the pastor? Didn't Steve ask for an "amen" yesterday during his sermon?
Does this need to be even addressed? If I was distracting the pastor and didn't know it, I would love to be contacted by SG to let me know. I would hate to be a distraction to the preacher and disturb his conversation.
4. When in your wildest dreams would you think your pastor kept a list against another minister because your pastor thought the other minister slighted the wife?
Huh? What is this all about?
5. When in your wildest dreams would you think you'd be dressed down as a congregation by the Minister of Music because he perceived the congregation was not worshipping good enough?
Huh again? What are you talking about? Nothing has been "dressed down" and nobody said people in the congreation was not worshipping good enough.
6. When in your wildest dreams would you think your church's finance committee admitted to not praying over a decision to give a large amount of your tithe money to a church of another demonination.
It wasn't from your tithes, but the benevolence fund which is for missions and is "above and beyond" your normal tithe. Nonetheless, don't tell me you never failed to pray over something in your life.
7. When in your wildest dreams would you have to protect your children against a pedophile on the church staff that was kept on staff by a pastor that wasn't congnzant enough to realize he should report any suspected abuse immediately.
Your children were never in danger. End of dicussion here. Again, for those lurking, if you need the facts, feel free to email me at acefrombbc@gmail.com and I will disclose them to you. I would post them here, but I always get attacked and I really don't want to deal with that anymore tonight.
overflowinggrace,
God help you when Steve and the leadership decide you are no longer valuable and you feel like some of us do now. Just God help you.
karen
Piglet said...
Heardnuf
You and I once agreed that we should ALL pray for God's will in this, and that truth would prevail.
How can truth prevail if it is suppressed by those lying?"
Response: Who lied? I'm still confused over that. I know who you think lied, but really!
"Any concerend member should press for this meeting, call the church, ask for a hearing on these issues."
Response: What issues? Please, I'm gooing crazy. Post them here and I'll call for a meeting.
"What on earth is there to lose???"
Response: Nothing, so post what you know, or quit saying you know something.
"Unless there are things hidden..."
Response: Conspiracy theory again. And by the way, you're hiding stuff from us that could put an end to all of this. Please tell us!
overflowinggrace said...
AOG,
Spare me the lecture. You can say in a previous post that SG must go and that all trust is gone, but you can't answer my question. How about an opinion, I'm sure you have one. Is the Holy Spirit not speaking the majority of BBC members.
6:58 PM, January 22, 2007
-------
It is possible - is it not?
BBC membership doesn't equal Spirit-led life does it?
Israelites didn't want to go into Canaan either. The majority is often wrong, as Dr. Rogers used to say.
Ezekial,
No need to get mean or throw insults.
I have not done either of these two things. Please read my posts instead of accusing me of this automatically when you see that 'ace' posted.
I forgive him for everything! and I do accept his apology! And I do really think he is a gifted speaker.
Great, some positive stuff...I haven't seen that in a while.
I don't think he needs to be a pastor....just don't think he will ever get to the humble servant that a pastor needs to be.
And that is your rightful opinion. I have mine and I respectfully disagree but that doesn't make either one of us right or wrong
The real question is, can I trust him? There are things he could do that would rebuild my trust...but I don't think that will happen
Could you list some of these things? And if one of them is "resign" please don't bother to post. (no offense meant, I just don't want to read that excuse!) :)
Your attention, please.
I STRONGLY encourage those that have OPPOSING VIEWS to post on this forum. True debate is HEALTHY. I STRONGLY urge BOTH SIDES to engage in a HEALTHY DEBATE on the SERIOUS ISSUES that face BBC.
However, I just as STRONGLY urge those, such as ACE,HEARDENUF and DEACON 4545, who frequently post for the sole purpose of being antagonistic and disruptive, not to attempt to detract with their antagonistic posts. Should they do so, which is their right, I STRONGLY urge posters on BOTH sides not to respond to those types of antagonistic posts that serve NO CONSTRUCTIVE PURPOSE, but ONLY attempt to detract from the SERIOUS ISSUES that face BBC.
Karen, Excellent post at 8:19. I'm mystified how folks still just don't get it. Mike Fleming today was clueless about the big picture. SG has formed a pattern of bad decisions...the PW fiasco is just one.....and has ruined, imho...his credibility. Again.....INTEGRITY COUNTS. It's vital.
Heardenuf
If you want the church we currently have then you are part of the problem or are willingly blind to it.
Once all our members are aware of the problems, if they all want to continue on this destructive path I will shake the dust off my feet and move on.
Right now, most folks are clueless.
From the last thread bepatient wrote: I simply mean, that in all the examples of consequences mentioned previously, they were consequences from God. Not consequences that human beings decided on (with exception of the legal ramifications when a sin is also a broken law)."
I think the questions on the last thread about consequences deserves another look. It seems it was being asked looking for an 'out'. This is the wrong view.
The question should be turned around and asked: How do we know what is right and wrong today?
And, As Christians where do WE get our standard for right and wrong? (Remember, Jesus told us it is a higher standard than the OT)
Karen,
God help you when Steve and the leadership decide you are no longer valuable and you feel like some of us do now. Just God help you.
What are you implying?? Statements like this are sad. Gaines is not using people then when he feels like his purpose is done through them he disposes of them. - Is that what you are saying? Please tell me I misunderstood you.
Andrew,
you said
BBC membership doesn't equal Spirit-led life does it?
No it doesn't, but I have been at BBC for a long time, there are many that are Spirit-led, including myself, that dont side with you.
Sorry, Ace. I do know your aprox. age. Scary, huh?
If you deny it, I won't believe you because you have no PROOF.
karen said:
6. When in your wildest dreams would you think your church's finance committee admitted to not praying over a decision to give a large amount of your tithe money to a church of another demonination.
response: I wonder if the meeting was opened with prayer and God was asked to guide these men's hearts? Do you think God would understand that prayer? I wonder if STeve said he prayed over the decision or felt like the Lord was leading him, as the spiritual leader of the church, to give that money?
I wonder.
Karen,
You say not to be ugly in some of your earlier post. But you are very harsh in many of your post. I want you to know that I forgive you.
OFG said
I will put up a $1000 for a room if you bring the facts.
Piglet says:
Email Tim if you are serious. Please.
Piglet,
Sorry, Ace. I do know your aprox. age. Scary, huh?
How do you know? Please do tell...
If you deny it, I won't believe you because you have no PROOF.
Yes I do....my birthday is on my drivers license permit.
overflowinggrace said...
Andrew,
you said
BBC membership doesn't equal Spirit-led life does it?
No it doesn't, but I have been at BBC for a long time, there are many that are Spirit-led, including myself, that dont side with you.
Response: Me included... 20+ years.
Piglet,
Would you like for me to scan it for you?
That wasn't an insult, I was just telling the truth. I don't insult people. That's not my style.
heardenuf said...
response: I wonder if the meeting was opened with prayer and God was asked to guide these men's hearts? Do you think God would understand that prayer? I wonder if STeve said he prayed over the decision or felt like the Lord was leading him, as the spiritual leader of the church, to give that money?
I wonder.
8:38 PM, January 22, 2007
I bin wonderin' too!
If we had monthly meetings (in accordance with the bylaws) we could ask the committee chariman and then we both would not have to wonder anymore.
"Karen, Excellent post at 8:19. I'm mystified how folks still just don't get it. Mike Fleming today was clueless about the big picture. SG has formed a pattern of bad decisions...the PW fiasco is just one.....and has ruined, imho...his credibility. Again.....INTEGRITY COUNTS. It's vital."
Yes, each thing sheds light into what is in his heart and how he thinks. Thinking > Feelings > Action > Result
Not meeting with the amen guy himself actually says more to me than anything. That man is one of his sheep. And being new is no excuse for treating him in that dismissive manner. (Hireling...see John)
Bloggers,
ACE, HEARDENUF & 4545 OFTEN post for one purpose and one purpose only. OFTEN, their sole purpose is to be antagonistic. As long as ya'll waste your precious time and talent feeding them, they will continue to play their game. If you ignore them, then they will soon go away. Ya'll need to FOCUS, FOCUS, FOCUS on the problems at BBC and quit playing into their hands by playing their game. I know that it is hard to resist taking their BAIT, but you must RESIST THE TEMPTATION.
Heardenuf said:
And I believe you'll get that meeting if you show reason(facts) for that meeting to occur. Not just another venting session.
Piglet says:
It's been presented and you don't believe it!
I'm glad this decision is not up to you. If this blog is such a disaster and such a blemish on our reputation as a church,you should want this settled. I'm wondering why a meeting bothers you.
Bloggers,
Charlie's post doesn't apply to me and is incorrect. I'm not going anywhere, so feel free to keep directing your posts to me.
heardenuf said...
karen said:
6. When in your wildest dreams would you think your church's finance committee admitted to not praying over a decision to give a large amount of your tithe money to a church of another demonination.
response: I wonder if the meeting was opened with prayer and God was asked to guide these men's hearts? Do you think God would understand that prayer? I wonder if STeve said he prayed over the decision or felt like the Lord was leading him, as the spiritual leader of the church, to give that money?
I wonder.
8:38 PM, January 22, 2007
Wayne Vanderstaag (Ace's father) admitted at the second to last CC meeting that NO one prayed over the gift to FUMC
ace,
In order to keep my sanity tonight, we're going to have to just be on opposite poles tonight. You have all the answers and I know nothing. Just God help you if something Steve Gaines does something that hurts you personally. I'll be there for you when it happens. Still coming to my party?
Unless you are Paul Williams or you were handcuffed to him, there is NO WAY you know who was or was not in danger during that 6 month period.
Steve Gaines did say you are like Hezbollah to Mark Sharpe. He also said Mark was responsible for sending people to hell.
Ask Mike Spradlin if Steve Gaines came to him with a list of "offenses" commiited by Mike against Donna - apparantly Steve was of the impression that Mike "dissed" Donna at some event. Go ask Mike Spradlin. When you do, ask him if Steve Tucker told him that Matthew 18 doesn't apply to Steve Gaines.
You're right - I don't pray over every decision I make, but I'm not on the Finance Committee at BBC either. I've not been to seminary either - I guess I expect those who have been to seminary to know more stuff than me.
Jaime Parker STOPPED WORSHIP with a diatribe about the congregation not worshipping. He's also told the choir that he went had to leave BBC to go to Gardendale to learn how to worship. Steve Gaines has come into the choir room to give instructions on how the choir should raise their hands during worship - I thought that was between the individual and God.
karen
Piglet said...
Heardenuf
If you want the church we currently have then you are part of the problem or are willingly blind to it."
Response: I see your side as the problem. If you don't like it leave. There are you happy I said it? I am.
"Once all our members are aware of the problems,"
Response: You are killing me here!
Make them know now. I will take them to all of my friends, I'll send them to Wendi Thomas, just please stop teasing us.
" if they all want to continue on this destructive path I will shake the dust off my feet and move on"
Response: You promise. I'm holding you to this!
"Right now, most folks are clueless. "
Response: You can't inform them right now! What about Ted and Craig?
Hearenuf
What issues? Please, I'm gooing crazy. Post them here and I'll call for a meeting.
Piglet says:
I cannot possibly say what I am thinking in response to that.
If you can read,you know the issues.
Don't insult my intelligence.
BLOGGERS
YA'LL ARE TAKING THE BAIT OF ACE AND HEARDENUF HOOK, LINE AND SINKER. LISTEN TO, ER, READ YOURSELVES.
Trucker said:
Wayne Vanderstaag (Ace's father) admitted at the second to last CC meeting that NO one prayed over the gift to FUMC
Response: Then I guess you also heard Harry Smith say that when the meeting was opened, that someone prayed that God would "superintend" over the meeting. Do you think God did? Or maybe you hadn't heard that. Or maybe you think Harry Smith's a liar.
"He's also told the choir that he went had to leave BBC to go to Gardendale to learn how to worship. Steve Gaines has come into the choir room to give instructions on how the choir should raise their hands during worship - "
Tactics right out of the GCM playbook.
charlie fox said...
BLOGGERS
YA'LL ARE TAKING THE BAIT OF ACE AND HEARDENUF HOOK, LINE AND SINKER. LISTEN TO, ER, READ YOURSELVES.
Response: No bait hear. Only accountability for those who refuse to post facts they say they know that could end all of this right now!
Ezekial,
25+ has a pretty good list and acting on that list would be a huge start....if completed...would restore a good deal of trust.
I don't want 25+'s list. I want your list. Could you write one up by yourself and email it to me? It would be appreciated.
"It makes me start to wonder why Mr. Sharpe didn't press charges, considering he is Mr. Neighborhood watch and the first to call the police whenever somebody's grass is 1/8th of an inch above neighborhood regulations. Yes, I am exaggerating there, but I wonder who the neighborhood troublemaker is? Hmm... I'll let you answer that for yourself."
I know I'm going over the line here--I don't know jack about any of these people, God bless them and all--but I cannot read that tidbit without picturing "the church lady."
"I wonder who the neighborhood troublemaker is? Hmm..." TeHe.
Sometimes the best brace for flak is a laugh.
Ace, Does your daddy, Wayne, know you are on the blog? Or, is he sending you here?
I'm gone for now... no one saying anything bad about me. Wake me when Piglet spills the beans. LOL
Sincerely, haven'theardenuffrompiglet
Ace said
Yes I do....my birthday is on my drivers license permit.
Piglet says:
If I can't SEE your license, I don't believe you.
And futhermore, if you offer to MEET with me to show your proof,I might just refuse a meeting.
Frustrating, isn't it?
BLOGGERS
YA'LL ARE TAKING THE BAIT OF ACE AND HEARDENUF HOOK, LINE AND SINKER. LISTEN TO, ER, READ YOURSELVES.
David,
A true statement is true for all people, for all times and at all places.
I'm not talking about truth here. I was talking about fact vs. opinion. Did you ever learn about that? Think way back to 3rd grade! :)
And, no, I believe in absolute truth.
Ace said
...If you want the entire Gardendale video instead of the YouTube out of context video you might change your mind.
8:04 PM, January 22, 2007
-------
I've seen it - it didn't make me feel any better about what he said and how he said it.
Esther,
Ace, Does your daddy, Wayne, know you are on the blog? Or, is he sending you here?
More lies and accusations. How sad.
The future of Bellevue:
Ace is an elder
OFG,
Sorry for the harsh tone of my posts lately - the flowery, funny me doesn't seem to be getting me anywhere. I'll tone it down. Thanks for the forgiveness, but like Steve said yesterday, if I didn't know I offended you, you didn't have to let me know you forgave me. But I apologize again anyway. Friends?
karen
ace said
Would you like for me to scan it for you?
Piglet says:
Sorry. Won't do. It could be altered. Oh well,I just can,t believe your lie.
I'm honestly not that petty, but you guys are doing this very thing to us.
Piglet,
If I can't SEE your license, I don't believe you.
Good for you, then.
And futhermore, if you offer to MEET with me to show your proof,I might just refuse a meeting.
Frustrating, isn't it?
No, not frustrating. It just shows how sad you guys really are if that's the way you really think.
Goodbye, folks, I'm off the computer for a bit. Have fun gossiping.
I'll be back in a bit but Spongebob Squarepants is about to start and I haven't seen that episode...so see you in a little bit!
BLOGGERS,
GET A GRIP. DON'T LET ACE AND HEARDENUF GET UNDER YOUR SKIN!!!!!!!!!!!
Heardenut cannot possibly be a dense as he pretends. I refuse to engage him any further.
I believe this meeting could be harmful to him personally.
Sorry, couldn't resist one more before retiring. Care to comment piglet?
piglet said in another thread:
I know many are assunming that the latest message on forgiveness was in preparation for an attempt to keep PW on staff. ...
I hope that's not so. I'm not sure what I have to forgive PW for, since he didn't sin against me but against God and his son.
Maybe Gaines wants us to forgive HIM for keeping PW on staff (?)
Forgiveness doesn't mean I have to keep the painter, right?...
(some left out by heardenuf)
I just want a new pastor and leadership. I don't want PW in a postion at BBC. Forgiveness is beside the point, I'm afraid.
Response: That's one less thing you can be afraid of. Good night!
sigh...
Just wanted to tell you all that I love you in the Lord, and I'm praying for you.
h
Wow, it is HOT in here tonight.
I have seen some unbelievable things posted. I'm not directing this to specific people, so as not to "feed the trolls" as it were.
I'll say this: Just because you support SG, please do be honest about it, but PLEASE do not be haughty and condescending toward those who are using discernment to have a church that upholds integrity and open communication with its members. Arrogance does nothing to help your position. Nothing.
All of this "show me the facts" talk is getting old, really. Some of us have MANY facts that we are choosing not to share in this venue because we do not want to violate the trust of those who confided in us. Just because we don't blab the "facts" on this blog, doesn't mean they don't exist.
I spend many an evening biting my tongue (or would that be my fingers) while reading this blog.
Unbelievable.
Piglet said...
Heardenut cannot possibly be a dense as he pretends. I refuse to engage him any further.
I believe this meeting could be harmful to him personally."
Response: I said nobody talk bad about me...
So what if it's harmful for me? I thought you wanted the truth? You could shut me up for good by posting "facts" that you know. Yet you refuse to do so! Unbelievable.
Please, once again, take Charlie Fox's advice and not respond to me anymore. I could get a lot more done if I didn't have to hold you accountable for your own words.
Charlie,
Your right, I'm taking the pledge no more interaction with the trolls.They don't want the truth heardnotenough just proved that fact.
I should have heeded your advice earlier.
FOLKS,
WE ARE ALL PASSIONATE ABOUT THIS MESS, BUT YA GOTTA HAVE MORE SELF CONTROL. DON'T FEED THE ANTAGONIZERS.
Charlie,
They got to me again! I've got TROLL COOTIES! Ok, breathe in, breathe out......
I feel better and I promise to stop. I really thought Ace was my friend - but he's different tonight.
karen (deep breathing)
socwork said...
Wow, it is HOT in here tonight.
I have seen some unbelievable things posted. I'm not directing this to specific people, so as not to "feed the trolls" as it were.
Response: Please do, post something "unbelievable" that the "trolls " have said.
How about the Ted and Craig thing piglet is semmingly avoiding?
God is in control.
The truth cannot be hidden when exposed to the light.
The roaches will scatter when the light comes on.
Integrity Does Count!
charlie fox said...
FOLKS,
WE ARE ALL PASSIONATE ABOUT THIS MESS, BUT YA GOTTA HAVE MORE SELF CONTROL. DON'T FEED THE ANTAGONIZERS.
Response: Just post the facts piglet knows with proper documentation and I will call for a meeting and stop ANTAGONIZING.
Piglet said...
God is in control.
The truth cannot be hidden when exposed to the light.
The roaches will scatter when the light comes on.
Integrity Does Count!
Response: LOL, LOL ROTFLOL. You are hiding what you say is the truth. Irony, oh Irony!
Good Night!
karen said...
I feel better and I promise to stop. I really thought Ace was my friend - but he's different tonight.
REPLY:
THAT'S THE OLE BAIT AND SWITCH CON GAME.
trucker, good to see you back. Missed you.
charlie fox post 8:45,
WHY,WHY, OH WHY won't people listen to you????????
heardenuf said...
Just post the facts piglet knows with proper documentation and I will call for a meeting and stop ANTAGONIZING.
THEY WILL STOP BAITING AND FISHING WHEN WE STOP BITING!!!!!!!!!!!
The "thread" or topic for today is about Paul Williams being fired (or terminated!) by BBC. Things seem to have strayed off topic.
Whether or not each side has proof they're not showing is not really important right now. Even if any proof was to be presented, what would the results of the presentation be?
Would Steve Gaines resign? Would the leadership oust him? Would the church as a whole rise up against him? Would forgiveness and restoration prevail? Would the church body come back together as a whole and worship God without distraction?
Before any healing can be done, there are many things that have to be resolved. At this point, I have my doubts that all of the issues on the table can ever be resolved.
There is enough stubbornness on both sides of the table. And after reading ya'lls posts for weeks, I seriously doubt if anybody from any side is going to persuade anybody from the other to cross the line and join them. Red Rover, Red Rover...
The antagonism is getting out of hand. The arguing is becoming pointless. Time is being wasted, and emotions are running higher every passing day.
If you can't beat them, join them.
But neither side right now can beat the other. So who joins who? Nobody will. Nobody is willing to let go of their pride.
Actions speak louder than words, people. So I challenge everyone here tonight.
Do something about it.
If you really want to change things, any of you...then do it. Get together. Organize. Form a plan. Make demands. You're already divided. Now, go conquer.
Just get something done. Anything. There are plenty of members out there who will rally to one side or the other, if some strong leadership is shown. The sheep need a shepherd. Who wants the job?
concerned
Thanks, good to be home again.
concerned said...
WHY,WHY, OH WHY won't people listen to you????????
REPLY; Because they have a strong passion for truth and integrity.
BLOGGERS
RESPOND TO 5454,HEARDENUF, ACE, ETC. IN EXACTLY THE SAME MANNER AS YOU DO TROLLCATES. FOCUS, FOCUS, FOCUS.
THE MGR (TEHE)
trollcates,
Let's get the names right. Don't want to hurt feelings. it's 4545, NOT 5454!!!! LOL
David Brown, did you read the post of 9:15 on 1-19? If not, I wish you would, it was for you from me.
Love Ya,
Sorry, it's late bro.
AH, peace and quiet!!!!
heardenuf said...
overflowinggrace said...
Andrew,
you said
BBC membership doesn't equal Spirit-led life does it?
No it doesn't, but I have been at BBC for a long time, there are many that are Spirit-led, including myself, that dont side with you.
Response: Me included... 20+ years.
8:39 PM, January 22, 2007
-------
Do you think the Spirit would lead you differently if you knew factually that deception were afoot in Bellevue?
Peace in the eye of the storm
Yeah, I know trucker.
scion,
I am in the middle of some other things at the moment and unable to fully comment.
I did not want or ask for the position that I currently find myself in, but believe that God is in control and knows what He is doing by putting me here. The effort that you speak of is definetly a reality at this point in time.
There will be meetings of members that are concerned about the future direction that Bellevue will take and the direction that it is currently headed. The only question at this point is whether the church will yield to the request to have those meetings on campus or if another location must be chosen.
It will probably be tomorrow before I can post more. It has been amazing to me that a battle must be waged for transparency within a church.
Question - Could it be that SG made the decision to leave Paul Williams in the position because he knew exactly who made the decision NOT to fire him 17 years ago? Could those people include the highest leaders of the church at that time?
I find it interesting that people here are much angrier with SG than with PW.
I am angry at PW! What made him believe that he was above the retribution for such a horrific act? It seems there is not enough here about his blame in choosing to stay or about the people that let him stay 17 years ago?
socwork said:
"I'll say this: Just because you support SG, please do be honest about it, but PLEASE do not be haughty and condescending toward those who are using discernment to have a church that upholds integrity and open communication with its members. Arrogance does nothing to help your position. Nothing."
Do you not think it is condescending to act as if we don't have discernment?
I just got in from traveling all day and jumped on here. My wife called me earlier to let me know about the firing.
I am still in prayer for the entire Williams family, as I am sure all of us are - but when will all of the other 'now seemingly forgotten' stuff be dealt with?
Does this suffice for everyone that SG is the right guy - and now do we just forget all the original stuff that started the ENTIRE BBC debacle?
IF these issues have already been address, please forgive me as I am still sorting through all of the posts.
A thank you to EVERYONE for all of your input and for not giving up. Even those of us who are seeking elsewhere still hurt and long for resolution.
NPYFIM
What will happen to Bellevue?
Only God knows what tomorrow brings. However, since they are playing right out of the GCM playbook here is how it usually turns out:
Gaines will stay without a scratch.
He will give his best Clintonesque apology speech ever.
The Dissenters will leave and everyone will cheer.
Gaines will preach/speak/promote on the importance of relationships and unity. People will actually believe this type of unity is scriptural because he is using a paraphrase and even if he uses a real Bible, he won't preach the entire context of unity.
The church will grow bigger (This is because they give seekers what they want: Easy believism, repentless Christianity, i.e., just say you're sorry, lots of events, feel good community works, programs and most importantly, ENTERTAINMENT and emotional, feel good worship)
Gaines will transition Bellevue to Elder led. (check the net worth of the elders...whew!)
Gaines will be a coveted speaker all over the US. (And paid for it. Don't forget he can sell his books at all these speaking engagements)
Everyone at the church will believe he is truly 'annointed' because everyone wants him to speak at their conferences and blurb their books!
Gaines will write more books and maybe even a book advising other pastors on how to handle a crisis. It will sell millions and he will keep the royalties.
He will preach on tithing every Jan and the 40,000 a year folks will give more so he can increase his 400,000 year salary. He is putting Bellevue on the map so we must keep him at all costs. He is worth 400,000... they will insist upon it.
And you will have 'churchianity' at it's fullest.
Pheh! What is Holiness when you can have all this?
tim,
Have you talked to any of the GBC folks. I understand that they were well organized.
bepatient,
I do not know you, and I do not know whether you practice discernment or not.
Here are a few important changes that would help restore the trust of many members during these days of crisis in leadership:
I. Pastoral Accountability to the Congregation:
1. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... and any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
2. The giving records of the membership and the ministers on staff at Bellevue should never be for pastoral review in any shape, form, or fashion.
3. Due to concern for potential abuse, no church credit cards.
4. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
5. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members.
6. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
7. Immediate removal from office of ministers guilty of sexual immorality with immediate coordination with the appropriate authorities if any laws have been broken by a minister (no matter how long ago), including thorough investigation of the matter when the minister’s conduct may have affected other church members or their children.
II. Congregational Church governance:
Some of the congregation has awakened to the reality that our church has a set of "lay-elders," a close knit group of men who manage to be appointed to key positions year after year. The rest of the congregation needs to be awakened.
1. Those who are part of this lay-elder "power block" need to step down from positions of influence for a long time. Bellevue needs “new blood” in these key positions.
2. There needs to be the signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services for the church. These people should not be allowed to serve on committees that review bids for their services.
3. Congregational nomination of and election of all of the Board of Directors as called for in the 1929 bylaws.
4. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. **The current bylaws mention "monthly" business meetings! When were they changed??
5. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
8. Thorough communication with the Congregation for ANY capital project well in advance of any vote. Building prayer buildings or any other type of building should be brought through proper channels to the congregation for prayerful consideration--not coerced "rubber stamping." [By the way, Dr. Rogers taught us quite a bit about prayer. As a matter of fact, I believe all of the current buildings ARE prayer buildings already. He and Dr. Whitmire also taught us quite a bit about worship also... but that's another topic].
9. Bellevue needs to reject Warrenism fully and finally.
10. Higher standards should be put in place for the hiring of "ministers." Seminary training should be considered a normal prerequisite.
III. Treatment of ministers on staff at BBC and members:
1. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members.
2. The end of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members; and the end of signing non-disclosure statements. All ministers who have been pressured or asked to sign such non-disclosure statements should be released from them in writing by BBC! Former staff should be allowed to address the congregation and/or the deacon body either in writing or in person without any fear of reprisal regarding their exit from BBC. The congregation needs to know how their leadership has treated and is treating ministers who leave the service of our Lord through BBC.
3. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.
All in my opinion as usual.
We are to be “providing things honestly in the sight of all men” (Rom. 12:17). Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."
esther said- What will happen to Bellevue?
Only God knows what tomorrow brings. However, since they are playing right out of the GCM playbook here is how it usually turns out:
Gaines will stay without a scratch.
He will give his best Clintonesque apology speech ever.
The Dissenters will leave and everyone will cheer.
Gaines will preach/speak/promote on the importance of relationships and unity. People will actually believe this type of unity is scriptural because he is using a paraphrase and even if he uses a real Bible, he won't preach the entire context of unity.
The church will grow bigger (This is because they give seekers what they want: Easy believism, repentless Christianity, i.e., just say you're sorry, lots of events, feel good community works, programs and most importantly, ENTERTAINMENT and emotional, feel good worship)
Gaines will transition Bellevue to Elder led. (check the net worth of the elders...whew!)
Gaines will be a coveted speaker all over the US. (And paid for it. Don't forget he can sell his books at all these speaking engagements)
Everyone at the church will believe he is truly 'annointed' because everyone wants him to speak at their conferences and blurb their books!
Gaines will write more books and maybe even a book advising other pastors on how to handle a crisis. It will sell millions and he will keep the royalties.
He will preach on tithing every Jan and the 40,000 a year folks will give more so he can increase his 400,000 year salary. He is putting Bellevue on the map so we must keep him at all costs. He is worth 400,000... they will insist upon it.
And you will have 'churchianity' at it's fullest.
Pheh! What is Holiness when you can have all this?
REPLY- What a load of junk. I am amazed that you and others think the stuff you just posted is some how ok.
There ya go Zeke... Ace & co. esp. like I. 6. imo
Hi. I have only posted twice. I just lurk. I used to be a member of BBC back when the church was downtown. We were there when we voted to move out east. Although no longer members we continued to visit and we record LWF on Sundays while we are at church. When Dr. Rogers passed away, it was like a member of my family. I was heartbroken.
I am even more heartbroken to find where BBC is at this moment.
Your pastor has proved himself unworthy to pastor the church. It doesn't matter that he has had to fill some tremendously big shoes. Integrity does matter!!!!!!! And he has none. Forget everything else(itty bitty fence, finances) the handling of PW situation should be the LAST straw for the leadership of the church and for the church as a whole.
God bless those of you on the blog who have "dared" to question the lies, cover up, and arrogance of a few. I pray in the coming days that more people will have the scales removed from their eyes and see the truth.
I agree with Charlie Fox that even though it is tempting to get into it with a few trolls leave them alone. It is hard for a troll to fight with himself.
Remember there are people all over the world praying for BBC. We are standing in the gap and will continue to do so.
esther,
Do you know of any seeker sentive churches that have completely imploded? Or does it just get worse? What causes total collapse?
karen
Esther
The final act will be when Bellevue becomes part of TBN and then we will see Benny Hinn, the Crouches and the rest of that bunch all speaking at Bellevue.Embraceing and being embraced by Steve Gaines.
charlie,
The involvement of GBC influences has been extremely valuable.
The vast difference is that they already had a legitimate set of by-laws. GBC members had not already lost ground to an elder led system. Bellevue has had a pseudo elder led system in place for quite some time. It has just never been out of control as it is now.
The goal:
Acknowledging the biblical mandate of Romans 12:17(b): “Provide things honest in the sight of all men,” to encourage transparency in church operations, enhance accountability in church leadership, and exhort collaboration between ministers and laity in all church matters.
More later...
Everyone,
Remember my Christmas plaque - "Sometimes God calms the raging storm, but sometimes He lets the storm rage and calms His child."
Everybody breathe!
karen
Karen,
I feel better and I promise to stop. I really thought Ace was my friend - but he's different tonight.
I'm not different, I'm just the same 'ol Ace. People here are getting TOO ridiculous. You (not you, Karen, but everyone in general here) do absolutely nothing complain, complain, complain. You can't acknowledge you were wrong in certain situations because of your pride.
You have to find fault in EVERYTHING.... i.e. Bellevue's press release today and an image that Channel 5 used which was OUT of Bellevue's hands. That is truly sad and I admit that I thought you people here would behave better and not attack after this news got up but you never cease to amaze me and I guess I'm just hurting tonight because of your constant attacks on Gaines and Bellevue for stuff that is out of their control and too nit-picky. But whatever, have fun destroying Bellevue and gossiping everyone.
Gotta go, Spongebob is back from commercials.
"Do you know of any seeker sentive churches that have completely imploded? Or does it just get worse? What causes total collapse?"
Nope. And I have been researching this for 2 years. After the 'resistors' go they grow. (And they do all they can to get rid of them very subtly..it is NEVER overt. Usually, some sermons about divisive brothers taking scripture out of context and saying, we really love these people. The dissenters get sick of looking like negative people just because they actually 'believe' scripture in context so they leave.
"trucker said...
Esther
The final act will be when Bellevue becomes part of TBN and then we will see Benny Hinn, the Crouches and the rest of that bunch all speaking at Bellevue.Embraceing and being embraced by Steve Gaines."
Nope, Trucker, have to disagree. The GCM are strictly metro-cool. They combine the easy elegance of the noveau riche and the sloppy emergent. They are suburbia's answer to the country club with morals. They practice a very agressive political/moral type of Christianity.
They would NEVER stoop to Binny Hinn. He has a comb over and wears Nehru jackets. And Jan Crouch wears too much makeup and is tacky. They will, however, put a fish on their car.
What is the GCM? I know about PDL. I bought the book. I was cleaning out some boxes and found it and through in the trash. What about Joel Osteen? Esther what is your opinion of him?
Benny Hinn also "diagnosed" ovarian cancer in a man dressed as a woman. This was part of a news special set up to see if Benny was legit. Obviously, he failed miserably, but people still believe.
I see how folks will be drawn in by the anti-Christ.
esther,
Is Joel Osteen seeker senstive? But he's not Southern Baptist, right?
karen
WTN,
You have mail
socwork,
If you don't feel your statement implied that the SG supporters don't have discernment, so be it. But for the record, that is how it came across to me.
CORRECTED POST: NASS DELETE FIRST ONE PLEASE, NO TRASHCAN :(
I think the exchange tonight was very revealing. There are those who vehemently OPPOSE transparency in any church business as Tim said. Wonder who those folks might be...
On the one hand they say there are no issues.
When you present issues, they want proof.
When you reuest a forum to do that, they say there are no issues.
Then they accuse US of tearing down the church. We are not tearing down a church. We are dismantling their empire. My guess is things are going to get uglier.
I've talked to more peoiple recently, and regardless of their stance, they agree that more transparency and accountability can be nothing but a good thing.
I urge more of you toapproach your friends and acquaintances with this issue of outdated bylaws, scheduled business meetings, and leadership accountability. I haven't met a person yert that is against this.
Sorry, Charlie, to ignore your warnings but I wanted Heardenuf to admit they do NOT want resolution here. They like things just the way they are.
Ace can't answer my what-if question because I asked how a member who becomes aware of corruption in the church should address it. He obviously does not want there to be any recourse for anyone who becomes aware of wrongdoing.
THESE PEOPLE ARE AGAINST ANY INVOLVEMENT OF THE MEMBERSHIP.
Can anyone guess why?
The truth is, a meeting, maybe several, WILL take place. s Tim said, it is just a matter of where.
Bloggers,
ACE, BBC EMPLOYEE & 4545 OFTEN post for one purpose and one purpose only. OFTEN, their sole purpose is to be antagonistic. As long as ya'll waste your precious time and talent feeding them, they will continue to play their game. If you ignore them, then they will soon go away. Ya'll need to FOCUS, FOCUS, FOCUS on the problems at BBC and quit playing into their hands by playing their game. I know that it is hard to resist taking their BAIT, but you must RESIST THE TEMPTATION
allofgrace said...
"They will, however, put a fish on their car."
LOL..esther, you crack me up.
If the fish is on Jan's car, I'll bet it's pink and REALLY fluffy!
karen
Charlie
Don't worry Charlie. I'm done with them tonite. My point was made. :)
They want no proceduers in place for checks and balances.
This is what it is all about, folks.
FOLKS,
ACE AND BBC EMPLOYEE ARE BAITING THEIR HOOKS. DON'T BITE. JUST LET THOSE WORMS WIGGLE!!!!!!!!!
Charlie,
Please stop with your posts talking about me. You are getting on my nerves.
If you have any decency, just stop.
I'd like to ask that all "sides" pray for CW tonight. This is a tough time for his family; but while many may be feeling sorry for a certain unemployed minister--this must be a day of mixed emotions for CW. Pray for him. Thanks.
AMEN Ace!!!!
25- I have been praying for him and EVERYONE on all "sides" from day one.
ace said...
Carol said...
"I will not argue with you and all the insults in your heart cannot provoke me."
WOW, think you got pretty close don't you?
Don't think I'd use my real name do you?
What makes you think I don't know who you are? Or that I know your Mom, and work with her?
Does she know how you spend your time on here?
You know that you and she have been fed lies by her boss don't you??
There is a lot to say, but it will be in person or in public, that is your choice here.
Good night.
Mom4,
You have mail.
"What is the GCM? I know about PDL. I bought the book. I was cleaning out some boxes and found it and through in the trash. What about Joel Osteen? Esther what is your opinion of him? "
Church Growth Movement. Sounds good, huh? What could be wrong with growing a church? Depends on how it grows. Holiness or Baptized pagans?
PDL is just one method of GCM. There are many methods but the main goal is bring in the numbers, we will get them saved later and get them to build relationships so they will stay. Sounds, ok. Right?
Well, just a little problem. The sermons and teaching have to dumbed down to get them to stay. You kind of gloss over sin, repentence, sanctification, justification, regenteration, what the narrow gate really means, etc. To be saved, you say a superstiticous prayer, much like Baptizing babies, and presto! You are pronounced saved. (How do they know???) You even get baptized! The services are very entertaining. Lots of emotion. People always think that 'emotion' is the Holy Spirit moving. The sermons are cool with lost of illustrations and many verses are used (sometimes). The scriptures are rarely exposited unless it is from the Message Bible. You will hear things like: God was in this place today. (Only problem is that if God were really there, most would have been struck dead. The others would have been on their faces like the OT prophets when they encountered God)
I could go on and on..... but never forget: What you win them with is what you win them to. And you ain't exactly winning them with deny self, carry cross, narrow gate, etc.
Research this movement because it has infected the Western church.
Where will be church be when persecution comes? As a missionary friend of mine said, "you all can't come here to teach anything because you would be excommunicated for what you believe and how you live. We have to depend on God just to eat!"
Joel Osteen? Just think: Anthony Robbins.
Guys listen to me: GET IN YOUR BIBLES Quick!!! Do NOT believe a word I say...Believe scripture...all of it in context. Pray for illumination from the Holy Spirit. This Christianity we all profess is a WALK. IT is NOT THE EASY PATH you are being led to believe. It is a path of suffering for HIS NAME.
When the time comes, does everyone think that word of mouth would be adequate to let people know that there's a meeting scheduled?
scion said:
Whether or not each side has proof they're not showing is not really important right now. Even if any proof was to be presented, what would the results of the presentation be?
Response: I for one would come to the "other side" and quite possibly many would come with me.
Would Steve Gaines resign?
Response: Maybe, depending on what comes out.
Would the leadership oust him?
Response: Again, quite possibly if it is as bad as piglet says.
Would the church as a whole rise up against him?
Response: See above, but also, if it is as bad as piglet alludes, I think all of this would take care of itself. I wonder what God thinks about people who withhold the truth when it should come out? I know what I think.
Would forgiveness and restoration prevail?
Response: I think so, if it is so bad that we can all agree Steve must go.
Would the church body come back together as a whole and worship God without distraction?
Response: Doubtful, but it would be a start and defineitely better than what we have now.
If I knew the truth and it would help the church and possibly remove the "problems" and "henchmen" as piglet says, then I would have offered it up long ago.
I personally believe piglet is full of hot air and spouts off things that he/she knows nothing of and that it is hurting the discussion here and at Bellevue.
If you know something, say it, document it and let the healing begin.
and...
"Little children, love one another"-
for Jesus' sake. This doesn't mean to compromise your convictions. It does mean act like christian brothers and sisters.
Real love is firm and consistent--just like the Author of it.
Mom4,
Spill it. I have nothing to hide. Try to intimidate me all you want, I don't care. Post away.
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