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512 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 512 of 512bepatient said
I do not expect you to rehash anything that has been discussed already. I do not think that all of it is false. I do think sometimes people have projected their own interpretations of what those things mean and that is what frustrates meepatient
Piglet says:
Then maybe you would agree with most people who want a hearing of the issues in an open business meeting.
Ace can bring chicken if he wants.
The length of the meeting is beside the point. We could have a seriesof meetings to cover all the issues one at a time and I'd be satisfied if everyone involved was actually HEARD. I think most people would say it was worth it if we could get to the truth.
I only see one reason to be opposed to this.....
Piglet:
Sorry about the earlier mispelling.
Piglet says:
Okay. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you missed an earlier post.
Response: I must have
You said Craig testified there were no problems witht the credit cards. I was not even referring to credit cards.
Response: Well, you're the one who jumped on me. You didn't say anything about the financial advances until after asking me where I got my info. I can quote it if you need me to...and you know I will. ;)
"My issue was with the salary and salary advances."
Response: After asking me if I BELIEVED what I stated.
"I did not see Ted Sunday. Mark Sharpe, whom I DID speak with said it was okay to put Craig's name out there because he is the one who had concerns in this area."
Response: So what's the answer? Does Craig have problems with the salary and the financial advances you mention?
"I did not see Ted Sunday but there are some things I DO want to ask him, nevertheless."
Response: I'll be here when you do. Please post.
"The credit card thing was never the issue"
Response: It was for me, that's what I was posting about.
But thanks for "clearing" that up...I think.
I am not taking issue with the meeting, I am taking issue with the people who keep talking about the 'other information' that will be presented. I can't think of any reason to keep this secret.
(We can have 50 meetings if needed, but personally I don't think it will solve anything. )
Piglet says:
I'm sure there is stuff even I do not know. Not everything is on the blog,for sure.
Response: Exactly. I agree. That is why we should not speculate on it and why I try to hold people accountable that do..
China said: "and I'll not dare chance you to sully the true gospel with your darkened, filthy, vulgar, efiminate, arminian comments."
Wow! I'm not sure what I said to deserve this attack. I just want to make note that I love your Christian spirit and attitude. Or maybe you're not a Christian...you need to take a look at your heart. Comments like that from one Christian to another are unheard of so I don't think you're a Christian. Go read 1 John, it's an excellent book.
Heardenuf said
Piglet says:
How much closer to the truth would we be if this were all left up to you? Easy to hurl accusations when you drop in every few days.
Response: Post an accusation please.
This is not a spectator sport and I'm not too holy to get angry at the forces at work here.
Response: You think it doesn't anger those of us who see you claim to have information that would help everyone make a decision on Steve and yet you continue to fail to provide it and then hide behind some meeting that hasn't even been scheduled?
I'm angered too!
Heardenuf:
Are you tired? That post was to Aslansown.
and As answered you
I have never commented on waiting for the report. I have simply said over and over and over if you are going to say something then you should be able to back it up. No "what if" and no making assumptions. For those who would argue that I sometimes post "what ifs" it is only to illustrate the point that you can go a lot of different directions with speculation.
allofgrace said...
heardenuf, bepatient,
correct me if i'm wrong..but haven't both (or at least one) of you been telling everyone we should just wait till Sunday night and see what is said?
Response: Yes, I have said that regarding the Paul Williams case. Piglet has been saying for days that she has information that she is unable to share. Some of that may have to do with Paul but she alludes to other things as well.
"If that's true, why do you insist on having information right now? Why can't you wait on a meeting where it would be told?...just curious."
Response:
Because, I don't believe she has the info. She has even softened her stance tonight by saying "Piglet says:
I'm sure there is stuff even I do not know. Not everything is on the blog,for sure. "
She has been saying this even before the meeting thing came up. I am merely holding her feet to the fire so that she and others will be accountable for what they say.
Hope that answers your questions.
Piglet said...
Heardenuf said
Piglet says:
How much closer to the truth would we be if this were all left up to you? Easy to hurl accusations when you drop in every few days.
Response: Post an accusation please.
This is not a spectator sport and I'm not too holy to get angry at the forces at work here.
Response: You think it doesn't anger those of us who see you claim to have information that would help everyone make a decision on Steve and yet you continue to fail to provide it and then hide behind some meeting that hasn't even been scheduled?
I'm angered too!
Heardenuf:
Are you tired? That post was to Aslansown.
Response: Yes I am tired. I apologize for not being able to follow the conversation. That's why I try to use quotes and so and so said statements. It makes it easier to follow when you're tired. ;)
Aslanown
I'm not hurling accusations. I am asking for us to try to check the emotions at the door so as to provide a better environment for reason and true discussion. Is this wnot what many have been asking of the leadership? Why not demonstrate here that they have no argument that things will quickly get out of hand and that only fighting will result?
Piglet says:
Sorry, but I am offended by your statement.
I don't have a problem with the emotions of the leadership. I have a problem with the dishonesty.
I have answered questions and clarified information. In the face of being called a liar, gossiper, and such, I think I've been very calm.
Heardenuf said:
Yes, I have said that regarding the Paul Williams case. Piglet has been saying for days that she has information that she is unable to share. Some of that may have to do with Paul but she alludes to other things as well.
Piglet says:
You sound nervous to me. If you are, then you should be and I will sleep well tonight knowing that. :)
For the record Piglet, I do not think you are a liar or a gossiper. I just do not understand why you can't tell me WHY this information is not being revealed. If you don't know, I will accept that. I do appreciate you answering my questions. I do not mean to seem that I am attacking you or anything and I want to apologize in advance if you feel that I have.
Piglet said...
Heardenuf said:
Yes, I have said that regarding the Paul Williams case. Piglet has been saying for days that she has information that she is unable to share. Some of that may have to do with Paul but she alludes to other things as well.
Piglet says:
You sound nervous to me. If you are, then you should be and I will sleep well tonight knowing that. :)
Response:
Nervous, about the truth? Who do you think I am, Paul WIlliams. What would I have to be nervouc about?
I'm glad my supposed suffering gives you comfort. How sad. Did you kick your heels up when STeve cried from the pulpit? Did you sleep well the night many here trashed/slandered Wayne Vander Steeg/Harry Smith et al.
Sad!
Piglet:
The dishonesty bothers me too. I find the lack of integrity deplorable. Please consider that you might have too much of an emotional investment at this time. I wish that I could better convey tone through these words. I am not being critical or condescending. My heart goes out to you for your anguish and I applaud your deep committment to truth. Sometimes, the BEST thing to do is to just let it pass.
We are called to be "as wise as serpents and gentle as doves" and I am asking us to keep bearing this in mind.
Bepatient said...
For the record Piglet, I do not think you are a liar or a gossiper. I just do not understand why you can't tell me WHY this information is not being revealed. If you don't know, I will accept that. I do appreciate you answering my questions. I do not mean to seem that I am attacking you or anything and I want to apologize in advance if you feel that I have.
Response: Very admirable of you bepatient, but I have no reason to believe someone who says they know something but won't share. If she shares, I'll apologize then.
Should that make me sleep better piglet?
bepatient said
For the record Piglet, I do not think you are a liar or a gossiper. I just do not understand why you can't tell me WHY this information is not being revealed. If you don't know, I will accept that. I do appreciate you answering my questions. I do not mean to seem that I am attacking you or anything and I want to apologize in advance if you feel that I have.
Piglet says:
You've been civil. Thanks. :)
First, I don't have all the info myself.
Second,we can't reveal all our sources right now, for obvious reasons. My hope is that the opportunity will come up soon.
God is in control of the timing.
to china bull shop
I've followed this blog for a couple of months.I feel like a NASCAR fan who goes to the races to see the wrecks. I've got no dog in this fight. I was somewhat taken aback at your reply to Ace after he honestly answered your list of questions. I am not a standing ovation guy or even a clapper. Corporate worship is to glorify the one and only living God. Not a big fan of large/mega churches - seems to be too much money and power for men to handle. Not enough checks and balances for my liking. This being said I did not know that Arminians are vulgar and effeminate. My grandfather was a bi-vocational country pastor-no one that I am aware of thought he was vulgar. Would you be willing to answer one question from a vulgar Arminian(I am also amillinial-that make me double dirty) I have a 16 year old physically and mentally retarded daughter(18-24 month) - if she was not "chosen by God" is she going to hell? I know I was saved by grace through faith. What about my daughter - do I have to wait until I get to heaven to see if she "makes" it?
allofgrace said...
heardenuf,
I asked you earlier if you had the pull to get a meeting..??
I answered, did you miss it? I'm hiding behind the vale of anonymity...can't you see that? Maybe I do and maybe I don't. Maybe I know something and maybe I don't.
Here's my quote(purposefully vague)
4. Maybe you will get your meeting"
I don't think that says that I'll get you your meeting, now does it...or doesn't it?
There will be no meeting. Trust me.
Well, with that I think I will head to bed. Piglet, Thank you for answering my questions.
Maybe a meeting of the minds but not a meeting of the hearts.
Forgive:
Was that a serious comment regarding PW?
piglet said:
First, I don't have all the info myself.
Response: Thank you for finally saying it!
Second,we can't reveal all our sources right now, for obvious reasons.
Response: Those reasons aren't so obvious. Is it legal, fear of job loss? What is it? Please. You can be vague yet explain why you can't say anything.
"My hope is that the opportunity will come up soon."
Response: What is the reason you can't say. Just give us that, please.
"God is in control of the timing."
Response: I agree, so don't say you know stuff in order to direct the flow of innuendo until that timing is perfect.
That's really all I'm about.
When the timing is right, spill it all and let the chips fall where they may.
Aslansown
I do agree I have an emotional investment.
I will keep it in mind.
I think lurkers need to see some of these issues addressed when raised. Not everyone is willing to do it because of the emotional toll. Small price to pay imo.
Heardenuf:
Congrats! You finally got to the point of genuine, honest, sincere discussion. That's what I'm talkin 'bout!
I will not say why we cannot reveal sources. Sorry.
Goose said...
I have a 16 year old physically and mentally retarded daughter(18-24 month) - if she was not "chosen by God" is she going to hell? I know I was saved by grace through faith. What about my daughter - do I have to wait until I get to heaven to see if she "makes" it?
I would believe that your daughter, if her condition does not change, will always be covered by the (for want of a better term) age of accountability. The age of accountability is not a chronolgical age, but a spiritual awareness issue.
I have no doubt that your daughter will be with you in the next life.
It is also my belief that God has blessed you beyond that of most by blessing with a person so special. God blesses only the strongest in Him by laying the heavy obligation he has upon you.
forgiveandmoveon said...
There will be no meeting. Trust me.
Response: And you say that because...? Seriously, I've been coming down on piglet/diana hart/mom4 and others for saying vague statements, so I have to ask:
Do you know something we don't? If you do, share it, but don't add to the innuendo/insinuation/exaggeration/specualtion etc. Please only post factual statements, not those that ask us to "trust me"
Forgiv:
Of what benefit is a back door?
I can't tell you but there won't be a meeting. All I can say is from the inside, unless things change it isn't going to happen. Steve will walk away before this happens. Too much to come out if it happens and he knows it.
I also don't ever remember leading ANYONE to believe I have ALL the information.
We're not a small group.
As Mom4 has been saying,there will be a meeting at the proper time for all to be shared.
Piglet:
Understood and appreciated.
I agree that the meeting will probably be off campus....
The meeting I'm talking about is totally differnt from the meeting Piglet is talking about. I don't know anything about that. I'm talking about a meeting held by the current Bellevue leadership
Piglet said...
I will not say why we cannot reveal sources. Sorry.
Response: First of all: Thabk you for sayi ng that you will not say. That simple statement could have saved me a lot of time tonight. ;)
Secondly: Come on, if it's legal, just say it.
Thirdly:
Well, then, I know stuff too that will blow Mark Sharpe/Jim Hetwood et al. out of the water. It is coming soon, I can't say when, I can't say why/how etc. just know that it's coming and that you better get to high ground so that the water from the holes in the boat won't splash you in the face.
(Tongue firmly in cheek)
forgiveandmoveon said...
The meeting I'm talking about is totally differnt from the meeting Piglet is talking about. I don't know anything about that. I'm talking about a meeting held by the current Bellevue leadership
Response: Thank you for clarifying.
Goose,
I believe your daughters will be going to heaven because as astounded said, the age of accountability. I know I'm in no position to do this, but I want to apologize on behalf of China....his/her post was highly offensive to not only me, but as we can tell, others as well. I'm sorry you were offended.
And I still don't understand why I (we) were attacked. Is there anything wrong with being Arminian? Isn't that were God gives us free will vs. "pre-destined" stuff? I mean, I know some Arminians believe that you can lose your salvation...I, on the other hand, don't....but what's wrong with being a Arminian? China?
Or maybe I'm thinking of the wrong thing...but I think I'm right...
slansown
Before I retire, I want to say "no hard feelings".
It's just hard to be on the battlefield and get shot by one of your own.
I'm sorry I was offensive in my tone or manner of speaking.
I'm doing the best I can.
(offline)
HeardEnuf,
If you ever get the chance, could you shoot me an email? acefrombbc@gmail.com - nothing important, though, so if you don't want to...don't! :)
Heard:
How about it? Just one more honest answer tonight then it's "goodnight Johnboy for all of us".
Astounded,
Thank you for your kind reply. My daughter has brought great blessings in my families life. With the exception of the Trinity she gives me the best earthly example of unconditional love. I know it is late and bull shop is probably sweeping up glass. I was hoping he would reply to my question. We have some 5 point friends who say that there is no age of accountability. Either you are chosen or not. Was wandering what bull shop thought? I trust he will be more compassionate to my question than Calvin was to Servetus.
Piglet:
No hard feelings or scars. I really do understand.
allofgrace said...
there's a purpose in my question.
Your stated purpose is to hold others accountable for their words...If, as you put it, you are being "purposefully vague", then what grounds do you have for holding anyone else accountable for their words?..just curious.
Response: Exactly. You don't get it do you?
I don't make statements saying I know things(other than my tongue in cheek post above) but that I can't tell you. Maybe I do know things that I can't tell you, but I would never state that.
It is my personal opinion that many (maybe not piglet) state things they have heard but have no first hand factual info of. They state these as fact and ask people to "trust" or "believe" them. I think that is wrong if you are not going to post your name.
Thus, I began posting under a pseudonym (heardenuf is not my real name). I will continue to do so and question people's statements regarding info that they are unwilling to share.
In case you missed it last week or so ago, someone posted that the restaurant expenses for Bellevue staff was "incredible" yet they were unable to tell us how much. They continually dodged the question and said contact the church and that " if they won't tell you, then I'm not going to help you". I concluded that this person's statement of "incredible" expenses was an exageration and that they did not know an actual #. Words like incredible can be potentially inflammatory as we all have a subjective opinion of what "incredible" means.
So, in conclusion, my being "purposefully vague" is in response to all here who do so likewise.
Thanks for your curiosity and I hope that helps explain my purpose here!
Goose said...
We have some 5 point friends who say that there is no age of accountability. Either you are chosen or not.
I say this half mockingly and half truthfully...
I think you need to find some better friends.
allofgrace said...
heardenuf,
I'm a little curious as to why you won't answer my question.
Response: As you can see, it is quite long and I don't type well! Oh, and I proofread/preview what I type before I post.
And I am here only on occasion as I do have another life. I'd tell you but you'll have to trust me! ;)
Good night all. "Yhe Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you, the Lord turn His facetoward you and give you peace." (Num 6:24)
and remeber that He who watches over Isreal niether sleeps nor slumbers.
ace said...
HeardEnuf,
If you ever get the chance, could you shoot me an email? acefrombbc@gmail.com - nothing important, though, so if you don't want to...don't! :)
Reply: I'm "purposefully vague", sorry, so I won't be e-mailing you.
Are you the real or fake ace? ;)
allofgrace said...
oh i get it alright
Response:
Good... and good night!
allofgrace said...
astounded,
I'm one of those "5 point" friends.
I will pray for your enlightenment.
Ace,
No need to apologize - I'm thick skinned oil field trash from Oklahoma. The only thing that hurts me it to see price at the pumps go down(just kidding). I trust and pray God will intervene and fix what has been broken. You are right about free will versus predestination. I'm not much on labels - just as long as God knows my name. I thought we all (Tulips or not) were Christians. Was just sickened to see a fellow brother or sister in God's family call someone vulgar. Disagreement is ok -even fun and educational at times - personal attcks do nothing but harm the cause of Christ and His Kingdom.
Heard,
Are you the real or fake ace? ;)
I am the real one...I think it was past the fake ace's bedtime. :)
Man, can you
get some time to reply around here: ;)
Summary : 15 minutes to answer your original post. 3 requests by you in that time. 1 Bathroom break for me! ;)
Your op at 11:58there's a purpose in my question.
Your stated purpose is to hold others accountable for their words...If, as you put it, you are being "purposefully vague", then what grounds do you have for holding anyone else accountable for their words?..just curious.
12:58 AM, January 23, 2007
Your second try at 12:02...4 minutes later.
allofgrace said...
aslansown,
perhaps since you're interested in honest dialog..you could get heardenuf to respond to my post.
1:02 AM, January 23, 2007
Your third try at 1:11... 13 minutes after your op.
My response at: 1:13...15 minutes after your op.
heardenuf said...
allofgrace said...
there's a purpose in my question.
Your stated purpose is to hold others accountable for their words...If, as you put it, you are being "purposefully vague", then what grounds do you have for holding anyone else accountable for their words?..just curious.
Response: Exactly. You don't get it do you?
I don't make statements saying I know things(other than my tongue in cheek post above) but that I can't tell you. Maybe I do know things that I can't tell you, but I would never state that.
It is my personal opinion that many (maybe not piglet) state things they have heard but have no first hand factual info of. They state these as fact and ask people to "trust" or "believe" them. I think that is wrong if you are not going to post your name.
Thus, I began posting under a pseudonym (heardenuf is not my real name). I will continue to do so and question people's statements regarding info that they are unwilling to share.
In case you missed it last week or so ago, someone posted that the restaurant expenses for Bellevue staff was "incredible" yet they were unable to tell us how much. They continually dodged the question and said contact the church and that " if they won't tell you, then I'm not going to help you". I concluded that this person's statement of "incredible" expenses was an exageration and that they did not know an actual #. Words like incredible can be potentially inflammatory as we all have a subjective opinion of what "incredible" means.
So, in conclusion, my being "purposefully vague" is in response to all here who do so likewise.
Thanks for your curiosity and I hope that helps explain my purpose here!
1:13 AM, January 23, 2007
I'm caught up and going to bed!
allofgrace said...
well you answered everyone else's pretty quick...just seemed you were ignoring mine...no biggie..i got my answer..actually the first question only required yes or no
Response: Good, I'm glad I answered your question.
Really going to bed now! ;)
allofgrace said...
astounded,
and I yours...blessings.
After I read my post to you I read it back and it sounded a little smart aleckey to me. I apologize for I did mean it sincerely. I feel very strongly about this issue. If only the chosen were to make it to God's kingdom I know that I would be the last to be chosen. You see, God made created the most unworthy candidate for salvation when he made me. The only chance I have to make it to Him is through his grace and my free will to accept it.
If you are correct, there is no way I will meet any of you in Heaven.
Sorry that should read
You see, God created the most unworthy candidate for salvation when he made me.
For the sake of clarification to allofgrace and others, it was swtt that used the term incredible:
Here's the op:
swtt said...
I think J's as in J Alexander is Steve's favorite lunch place. At least he is well known there.
I do think that the Bellevue chef and the wonderful meeting rooms make a lot more sense than spending money on outside restaurants like we do.
The annual cost of restaurant charges at Bellevue is incredible.
11:49 PM, January 11, 2007
Goose wrote: "I have a 16 year old physically and mentally retarded daughter(18-24 month) - if she was not "chosen by God" is she going to hell? I know I was saved by grace through faith. What about my daughter - do I have to wait until I get to heaven to see if she "makes" it?"
Goose, I am so glad you asked this question. It deserves to be studied and prayed over. I am not a follower of Calvin and agree with your view of his persecution of Servetus.
Historically, Baptists believed in Election, though. That is a proven fact. I consider myself a classical Baptist and I believe in election because it is all over scripture and cannot be ignored. I, in my free will, would NEVER choose Christ. Romans 3 says that NO ONE seeks God. No one understands.
But hear me out....
As to children going to heaven. I have spent the last year researching this in scripture and reading what other theologians say.
There is nothing in scripture that gives us a 'guarantee' of an age of accountability. (This is one reason why the Constantitian church started Baptizing babies). There is no guarantee of heaven for babies in scripture. That is such a hard concept for us to get our heads around but scripturally, there is nothing to give us any guarantee. (I often think of the babies that died in the flood or the little boys killed when Jesus was born)
However, there is hope.
I do believe that God is a God of Mercy and Grace. I 'want' to believe that children go to heaven. However, I also believe that my repsonsibility as a parent of a young child is to pray for her fervently and beg God to save her. I also teach her hard truths that most parents would not dare. God blesses truth. I know you cannot teach your daughter scripture but you can pray for her salvation.
Some of the greatest theologians in church history cannot point to any scripture that guarantees this.
But, we do know that God hears and answers our prayers that are in His Will.
And, guess what! I believe that Free willers and those believing in election will be praising God in heaven together.
What did he know? When did he know? Then depending on the answers to those two, give a logical rationale for the delay in taking action. If logical includes someone found out and called him on it, then so be it! But, please, call a spade a spade and don't try to "save face" in this. Conversely, others should not pretend to know his mind and answers to the first 2 questions above! I encourage everyone to think critically and objectively in evaluating this terrible situation and don't use it as a means to the end of an unrelated agenda.
ace said...
I think it's safe to assume that The Fake Ace = Charlie Fox.
If I'm wrong, sorry Charlie...but I think I'm right since you just...disappeared.
FOR THE RECORD>>> CHARLIE FOX IS NOT POSTING AS THE FAKE ACE. NOT MY STYLE!!!!
Ace,
Yesterday you asked me to do you a favor. I honored your request to go back to savingbellevue and look at the pictures of the itty bitty fence. This is what I came up with.
John 10:1-5
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
My thoughts are this Ace: the gate represtents Christ - the itty bitty fence represents obedience.
Now, if you can do me a favor? Please go reread MS statements and look at the pictures in light of scripture.
God Bless - I love you brother.
One last thing. Obedience is not itty bitty - it is the precursor that unlocks scripture.
As far as your opinion on Calvinism, keep it. Everything that you post points to the fact that you are either unregenerate or a reprobate and I'll not dare chance you to sully the true gospel with your darkened, filthy, vulgar, efiminate, arminian comments. You might call this being hateful. I call this being truthful.
Finally, someone able to dole out some answers. I have a few.
1. Was Adam created morally perfect or simply innocent of sin? What passages in the Bible teaches us that man was created with a pure, holy nature that became corrupted through the sin of Adam? Not only corrupted, but so much so that no single part of human nature is able to respond to God?
2. Why does God command all men to repent if some aren't able to comply? (Acts 17:30) Dr. Rogers used to say that if God commanded him to do something, there were 2 possibilities - God would help him do it, or else God is unfair.
3. Jesus spoke in parables to keep some Jews from understanding. In Mark 4:11 He told his disciples was that if they heard the message they might have turned and been forgiven. This passage raises all kinds of issues, but it seems to me that hearing and receiving the words of Christ leads to salvation. Jesus deliberately obscured His message so that certain men wouldn't receive it. Why didn't he just deny them the effectual call?
4. Why did Jesus marvel at the unbelief of his hearers in Mark 6:6? If he believed the first point of Calvinism (total depravity), shouldn't he have accepted it as glorifying to God?
5. In Romans 1, Paul writes about men who knew about God but didn't glorify Him. Their thinking became futile and God gave them over to a corrupted state of the heart. They were not born in that state. My question is, how does this state of the heart differ from the Calvinist notion of total depravity, and if it's the same why are some men given over to it after birth and others born into it?
I'm afraid I've been sullying the true gospel with my darkened, filthy, vulgar, efiminate, arminian comments. I truly need to be corrected, provided that God has elected me for salvation.
I'll be offline 'til this evening, but I seriously would like to read the answers.
Good Morning,
I awakened this morning thinking about the happenings of yesterday. I am thankful for the Body of Christ that Paul Williams is gone...and for all practical purposes, he is gone. However, the problems at the church did not begin nor end with Paul Williams. The Paul Williams 'moral failure' surfaced as a result of the ongoings within the church. I pray the infrastructure can now regroup and focus on the core of the problem...which I believe to be the church growth movement. Aka Purpose Driven Movement and Emergent Church. I also pray that this evil can be driven from the Southern Baptist Convention.
God bless all of you and may you have a good day.
Ima
Now that PW is gone, it is once again time to focus on the problems, which still exist at Bellevue. Until we get the leadership to become transparent and answer the questions, which have been asked of them since early last year, our church will not heal.
Steve Gaines and leadership: It is time to open the books and begin talking to the church, or you all need to step down for the sake of the church. We ARE NOT going away. The longer you put this off, the bigger mess you will have to deal with! BE MEN OF INTEGRITY AND PUT AWAY YOUR PRIDE. YOUR SHEEP ARE HURTING AND ARE SO DISAPPOINTED IN YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!
WWJD? THINK ABOUT IT!
Hey folks, I have been at Bellevue since 1973, except when I went away to college, and then later was out of the country for 6 years.
We have started visiting other churches, mainly First Evangelical Church. Their pastor had a good message Jan. 14th on election. You can listen to it on their web site.
I have read just about everything on this blog. I must admit, I have to skim over a lot of it because there is so much.
I don't think Steve Gaines will leave Bellevue on his own, and unless God removes him, I don't think there are enough members to vote him out.
Everytime I drive by on the expressway, I pray for Bellevue and Mid America Seminary.
This is a quote from the Commercial Appeal this morning:
"The full report will be on the church's Web site, bellevue.org, after the announcement Sunday evening. And even though Williams is no longer employed by the church, ministers say there will be no effort to bar him from worshiping there."
NO EFFORT TO BAR HIM FROM WORSHIPPING THERE!!!! Are you kidding me? Granted, Paul Williams will probably never darken the doorstep of BBC again, but why not just let the fox back into the chickens? The fox lost his job and promises he's become a vegetarian. Until he can't help himself anymore and samples more chicken meat. The leadership at Bellevue is totally inept at protecting your children. What a wasted of time by the Personnel Committee. Nothing changes.
karen
China bull, I want to comment about the committee run church. As someone very well versed in mega structure, I have to say that if there are committees made up of members (and not just staff) Bellevue has done something most mega's don't.
Most mega's are run strictly by staff. The elders, of course, plot the grand vision. (very worldly wording but nothing else fits) and the staff run the church. Of course, you have member 'volunteers' but they rarely ever have anything to do with how something is done or what is done. That comes from staff.
If Dr. Rogers developed committees made up of members in charge of areas, I am somewhat impressed for a mega.
That is one of the problems with a mega in that it is impossible to be really congregationally ran. (is that the right tense?) It is just too big.
I am not condoning this but it seems it is a bit better from an elder/staff run church where the members are considered 'guests'.
Think about that. Most mega's have a guest services or customer service department. Sad, huh?
However, with that said, I think the committees are a moot point now. Gaines will probably go to an elder led church as soon as he can.
China Bull Shop, AllofGrace and others who want to solve all controversial theological issues here for the rest of the board...
Please take your discussions on the Cal. vs. Arm. debate elsewhere. Use email.
Bellevue is divided enough right now.
ChinaBullshop... when a bull tears up a china shop, I guess the owner of the bull has to pay for any broken glass and injuries... Pretty callous of the bull don't you think. The Bible is a sword and not a club. You owe Ace an apology.
Just for the record... I believe the doctrines of grace, but I do not believe the issue of children or the handicapped is understood or handled well by many in that crowd...
All of us should read ALL of Matt. 18--
Read it in the context of the little child standing in the midst of Jesus and his disciples:
"In the same way, your Father in heaven is not willing that one of these little ones be lost."
Mt. 18:14
Heavenly Father, usa english "thou shalt" english benin. in Jesus's name, amen.
lindon,
We have committees populated with members but the few committee that control the money are basically a small sampling of about 10 families that are appointed by the pastor's office. The same families run everything at Bellevue as they have for years. We are already Elder Ruled. We just don't call it that.
It's time to change things to be transparent. I'm ready to forgive Steve Gaines but he still has to go for us to heal.
Karen, If PW comes there to worship, what better way could there be to see the fruit of his repentance?
But one commenter on here had it totally right when he asked what was in PW's mind all these years as he taught scripture, prayed with people, etc. That is really the scary part. I could ask the same thing of Ted Haggard as he preached from the pulpit Sunday after Sunday.
Did you know that the Sunday before he was 'outed' he prayed in front of the entire congregation that God would reveal 'deception'? (He was referring to the deception in the upcoming election)
Lindon,
But...maybe the reference (whatever you are addressing?) is the ministry teams? I am reminded of the Reagan's 'trickle down' method. The work is dished out through various ministry teams. Are we on the same page here?
Ima
forgiveandmoveon said...
What was Paul Williams thinking 17 years ago and since each time he got behind the pulpit to pray and preach? What was he thinking when he was in his office alone with victims of sexual abuse? What was his own family thinking when they saw their dad and husband masquerading as a pastor?
It's time to move on without Steve Gaines as our leader. He has lost our trust.
10:44 PM, January 22, 2007
lindon said...
Karen, If PW comes there to worship, what better way could there be to see the fruit of his repentance?
You don't give a dog who bit your child a second chance to play ball with your child, do you?
I really feel for Paul Williams - I've prayed for him and his whole family. What if CW wanted to worship at BBC and hasn't been able to to for years because his abuser has been there every Sunday? It's now CW's turn to worship at BBC if he still wants to.
Sin causes consequences even after sin is forgiven.
I think it would have been better if the CA left that sentence out, but since they didn't, it indicates that BBC cares more about "saving face" than saving and protecting children. Who knows what runs through a pedophile's head when he's confronted with children. Someone may ask me "where is he supposed to worship; not too many churches have no children attending". Due to his criminal acts, his punishment should be to worship by himself at home. Child molestors aren't allowed to be around children - it's not the child's fault so the pedophile has to be punished. If all PW gets is banishment from BBC, he should consider himself lucky.
Lindon, I love ya! But on this point we differ - I can live with that. :)
karen
I don't beleive we can move on until Steve Gaines is no longer standing before us preaching. It's impossible to go to church and especially the service and not be thinking about the things Steve Gaines has done. People who support Steve and people who think he should go have something in common. We've both been hurt deeply by the events of this past year. Friendships and families have been split over the sins of our pastor. If Steve Gaines wants to preach, fine. Just find another church to start over on the right foot so we can heal.
If memory serves, CW has worshiped at BBC since that time. Maybe not all of that time, but at least large portion of it. I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure.
There are plenty of ways PW could worship without coming in any contact with children.
Karen said...
...
NO EFFORT TO BAR HIM FROM WORSHIPPING THERE!!!! Are you kidding me? Granted, Paul Williams will probably never darken the doorstep of BBC again, but why not just let the fox back into the chickens? The fox lost his job and promises he's become a vegetarian. Until he can't help himself anymore and samples more chicken meat. The leadership at Bellevue is totally inept at protecting your children. What a wasted of time by the Personnel Committee. Nothing changes.
Karen's remarks have precipitated a number of questions which many of you "regulars" will need to ask yourselves:
1) Are we to see velvet ropes outside the doors to Bellevue now? Will the greeters now become bouncers, with lists of who may and may not enter--and some discretionary power to allow people in or keep them out?
"Dude, I'm not feelin' that tie--you're gonna have to just chill. Maybe we can fit you in at the 11 o'clock service..."
2) Have some decided that Mr. Williams just absolutely, positively cannot be healed of God--or has not been already? Is God, or is He not, able to work in Mr. Williams' life?
3) Is every single person in Bellevue leadership (particularly those who work with children and youth) stigmatized by Mr. Williams' clandestine behavior?
4) Are those of us who are parents "totally inept" at protecting our children by allowing them to be supervised in a Bellevue classroom?
There is not a snowball's chance in Cuba that Mr. Williams will be able to work with children or youth at Bellevue again. Presuming he will is a viewpoint which is beyond pessimistic, and I would encourage people not to give in to it.
And keep this in mind--if any church begins barring people from merely worshipping, who of us can be found acceptable?
--Mike
Did the babies that died in The Flood go to Heaven or hell?
Some fellow Christian above asked this question (paraphrasing).
A Christian's first job is to love God more than anyone or any thing else. This includes ***all other people***, animals, the environment, sports, our own body, our eyes, our ability to hear, our minds, our internal organs, our health, money... ***all of Creation put together***
This means do not doubt our all-loving God in Heaven.
Do not let someone try to trick you into doubting God.
Do not let a theological argument trick you into not loving God totally and completely.
Do not let doubt in. Cast it out boldly. Choose to turn to God at all times.
He loves you and He will prosper you if you simply turn to him in all things.
This is ***more*** than "jmho."
This is what gets me through the hard times.
There is never a wrong time to praise God.
Not even when The Flood came.
Not even when PW was fired (ALLELUIA! I am shouting!)
All times have been ordained as praiseworthy for our God.
Amen.
I will not reply to anyone trying to change my mind about this comment.
(offline)
.
Mike,
I see your points about the "velvet rope" thing. We all have skeletons that we would commit Hari Kari to keep hidden from people at church. I'm not saying to ask for people's resumes when they come in the door, but we KNOW about this one, why shouldn't they suggest he not come around. Well, then again, that makes him some other churches problem. I'm all for those who hurt kids in any way being locked away and tortured with pointy objects - so you understand that it's nothing personal against Paul Williams. I'm sure he feels terrible and wishes it never happened. I'm hopeful that he repented.
be patient, didn't know CW worshipped at BBC - but how difficult that must have been for his all these years. Thanks for the info.
karen
I'm moving up the next thread - NASS created another one. Thanks!
Ima wrote: But...maybe the reference (whatever you are addressing?) is the ministry teams? I am reminded of the Reagan's 'trickle down' method. The work is dished out through various ministry teams. Are we on the same page here?"
We are on the same page. They are called different things but the result is the same: Staff led.
Karen, I totally understand where you are coming from. And, I don't really disagree in spirit. I would be amazed if he came back there. It would tell me a lot about where his head is.
What if he asked to speak to the congregation and got on his face and confessed? then begged forgiveness and asked to be accountable for the rest of his life.... Promising never to have any ministerial responsibilites and promising to stay away from children and teens?
You know, I most certainly would forgive him but I won't be having him over for dinner, either. Not with a child in the house.
God Bless!
Karen,
I do not know how long he has continued to go to BBC, but I do know he was there as late as '97-'98
25+,
Thanks for the words of wisdom. Theological debates for centuries have frequently proved that no one has all of the right answers or complete understanding. In our human state, we will never know all that there is to know of God. The finite cannot fully understand the infinite.
We can, however, understand the finite problems that are surrounding Bellevue and move toward resolution of those problems and should focus on doing so.
Well...here is my train of thought. I am amazed that he would have the 'gall' to enter the doors of the church again! Do you really think he would have the nerve? Where would be his shame? Really...
imaresistor said...
Well...here is my train of thought. I am amazed that he would have the 'gall' to enter the doors of the church again! Do you really think he would have the nerve? Where would be his shame? Really...
Where is your shame?
Where is mine?
--Mike
Mike,
I agree that PW should be allowed to come worship as long as we don't let him work with children and we train our cameras on him while he's in the building like we do on Jim Haywood.
As far as the bouncer comment, I'm afraid we already have bouncers at Bellevue. Once again, according to what Jim Haywood says, they approached him several weeks ago.
forgiveandmoveon said...
Mike,
I agree that PW should be allowed to come worship as long as we don't let him work with children and we train our cameras on him while he's in the building like we do on Jim Haywood.
No comment.
As far as the bouncer comment, I'm afraid we already have bouncers at Bellevue.
We do? People who won't let you in the building to worship?
Where?
Once again, according to what Jim Haywood says, they approached him several weeks ago.
That's just Security doing its job. And I do appreciate you qualifying your statement, since we have only heard one side of the event.
--Mike
There is not a snowball's chance in Cuba that Mr. Williams will be able to work with children or youth at Bellevue again.
Mike, those that knew what he was guilty of thought the same thing in June. What were they thinking while he was allowed to remain in his job unfettered for six months? When there is any doubt, we must always err on the side of protecting children.
I agree with your primary point. I don't believe we should begin barring people from worship. How would we ever decide who is allowed and who is not? Each of us remains a sinner.
docbellevue said...
...
Mike, those that knew what he was guilty of thought the same thing in June. What were they thinking while he was allowed to remain in his job unfettered for six months?
Perhaps we'll find out Sunday night.
When there is any doubt, we must always err on the side of protecting children.
As the father of two, I heartily agree.
--Mike
I posted this on the upper thread. Please let's never stop seeking the truth but let's also be kind in doing so. Please?
David Brown said...
My dear brothers and sisters:
Please allow me to expand and explain why this should have been dealt with in June.
If Dr. Gaines that taken the proper action then that was taken yesterday. None of this would be out there today.
He should have removed Paul, reported it to DCS and then provided assistance to the victim and the family.
The next Sunday he could have stood up before the congregaton and said we had to remove a minister this week for a high moral failure. He would NOT have had to reveal anyone's name.
Yes there would have been some talk. There always is but the victim and his dear family would have been spared.
There was no SavingBellevue nor blog at that time. Dr. Gaines would have been so far out if front his distractors they would never catch up. I would have hailed him as a hero.
But that didn't happen did it? And what do we have left? A church family that is very divided and hurting. We have brothers and sisters taking it out on each other here. We are ALL hurting over this one issue. NO ONE IS OR WILL BE A WINNER HERE.
It is like the comtempary christian song: "I can only imagine." What if? And that is why my soul cries out why? Why wasn't it dealt with swiftly and properly in June?
David Brown
SNAP Coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis
10:50 AM, January 23, 2007
At 10:44 this morning I said, "I agree with your primary point. I don't believe we should begin barring people from worship. How would we ever decide who is allowed and who is not? Each of us remains a sinner."
I failed to point out there is solid Scriptural support for removal of a church member upon the existence of certain conditions. If those conditions have been met, Paul Willams should be removed from our fellowship.
Doc,
We who are in Christ are sinners saved by grace - the old has past and we are new. Yes we can still and do sin but we are Children of God if we are found in Christ not sinners.
Kat
Mike Bratton said...
As far as the bouncer comment, I'm afraid we already have bouncers at Bellevue.
We do? People who won't let you in the building to worship?
Where?
Once again, according to what Jim Haywood says, they approached him several weeks ago.
That's just Security doing its job. And I do appreciate you qualifying your statement, since we have only heard one side of the event.
--Mike
10:39 AM, January 23, 2007
Mike I do not know Jim Haywood did that BBC security will not let him in the building but, the only reason that is said to disfellowship with a Christian is sin, but once sin is confessed and the person stops doing it they are to be brought back in to fellowship. for someone to still ban some from comming to church when no crime or sin is being done is a sin, and any Christian should hate that and speak up. If you let them get away with that what will they do next Murder someone and say I am doing the L-RD's work. I believe I see those days comming nevertheless. Murder in the name of the L-RD they will be doing it again. Peace to you Mike
noname said...
...
Mike I do not know Jim Haywood did that BBC security will not let him in the building but, the only reason that is said to disfellowship with a Christian is sin, but once sin is confessed and the person stops doing it they are to be brought back in to fellowship. for someone to still ban some from comming to church when no crime or sin is being done is a sin, and any Christian should hate that and speak up.
Mr. Haywood, by his own choice, stopped attending Bellevue Baptist Church. Except, by his own admission, to bring a video camera in hopes of recording Pastor Gaines saying or doing something Mr. Haywood might consider untoward.
It is torturing the English language to consider such a motivation as having anything to do with "worship," wouldn't you agree?
If you let them get away with that what will they do next Murder someone and say I am doing the L-RD's work. I believe I see those days comming nevertheless. Murder in the name of the L-RD they will be doing it again. Peace to you Mike
There have been people taking lives in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ for a long time, and their actions are incompatible with Christianity. There's quite a bit of separation between doing that and asking someone not to try and play "Gotcha!" during a worship service.
--Mike
If you wonder why SG is hanging on and not moving on down the road , well its simple. MONEY !! Where can he go and make 100,000 much less 400,000. I blame your folks who allowed him to renegotiate his salary to a figure that seems to be WAY to much for him or anyone else for that matter. He has burnt the Gardendale bridge and at his age and with his health problems he can do nothing but stay even as Bellevue breaks up. Folks he is NOT going to resign.You may as well either stay and bow to his Pastor rulership or leave and find another church.The only way he may go is if the DA moves on him with charges. Even then he will stay until he is forced to leave in order to serve time. WHAT A MESS and it is as much the leaderships fault as it is SG.
Also, You guys and gals need to take a look at this upcoming Holy Land tour and hold SG accountable to his word that he will give all those free trips away and not pocket the CASH. I know for A FACT that he racked up on those trips while at Gardendale because he told me so. If you hold him accountable where he can't make big bucks he will most likley stop doing them at Bellevue.You may as well start cleaning him up because it looks like he will be with you for a long time. You might also try to get his salary down abit. Say 250,000. He might need to change his lifestyle but with all the stupid things he has done he will be glad to get it.
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