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Channel 24's coverage is here.
WREC Radio (AM 600) - The Mike Fleming Show which airs from 4:00 p.m. to 7:00 p.m. daily will likely have discussion. Live internet streaming can be accessed here.
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512 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 512 Newer› Newest»mom4- You have UNREAL nerve.
andrew said:
Do you think the Spirit would lead you differently if you knew factually that deception were afoot in Bellevue? "
rESPONSE: Yes, I believe the Spirit would lead me differently.
'That is all I'm asking for, "factual" information.
piglet it says he/she has it. I just want to know what it is.
All of you know-it-alls on here that say nothing. Put your money where your mouth is. Not more rumors and lies, but if you have facts we are all ears.
BOYS AND GIRLS,
ACE, DEACON 4545 AND HEARDENUF ARE WIGGLING THE WORMS. DON'T BITE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
25+yrs@BBC said...
I'd like to ask that all "sides" pray for CW tonight. This is a tough time for his family; but while many may be feeling sorry for a certain unemployed minister--this must be a day of mixed emotions for CW. Pray for him. Thanks.
Response: Who feels sorry for Paul? Did I miss something in the last hour? I'm reading as fast as I can, but can't find it. Please help.
Piglet said...
Charlie
Don't worry Charlie. I'm done with them tonite. My point was made. :)
They want no proceduers in place for checks and balances.
This is what it is all about, folks.
Response: I thought it was all about truth...which you "claim" to have, but refuse to share.
Hey Charlie, wiggle, wiggle!
Ace,
I have never directed a post at you. I know that sometimes other posters 'let loose' on you. This is not my intention. I would like to ask you a few simple 'short reply' questions; I promise they are not loaded and are not volleyballs--that is they are not intended for some other blogger to knock toward your head--if you percieve it to be that, dont answer.
I also have noticed that you are clever(sort of a compliment)...what I mean is that you can 'answer' sometimes and not 'actually' answer it. The questions are pretty straitforward, but I want to see if you are willing first before I post them. Give it a go?
ACE, DEACON 4545 AND HEARDENUF,
NO FISH HERE TONITE!!!!!!! YA'LL CAN PACK UP YOUR POLES FOR THE NIGHT!!!!
heardenuf,
Respectively, what you seem to be seeking is violation of governmental law. While these things exist, we as the church are held to a higher standard.
The issues involve truthful communications to the membership, fair treatment of staff both past and present, transparency in dealing with the membership, transparency in financial dealings, a democratic representative deacon body, accountability of committees, a transparent selection process for committee members, a transparent selection process for ordaining the deacon body, etc...
More later...
charlie fox said...
Bloggers,
ACE, BBC EMPLOYEE & 4545 OFTEN post for one purpose and one purpose only. OFTEN, their sole purpose is to be antagonistic. As long as ya'll waste your precious time and talent feeding them, they will continue to play their game. If you ignore them, then they will soon go away. Ya'll need to FOCUS, FOCUS, FOCUS on the problems at BBC and quit playing into their hands by playing their game. I know that it is hard to resist taking their BAIT, but you must RESIST THE TEMPTATION
Response:
Hey Charlie, it's time to stop hiding behind the troll thing. Why don't you request that piglet share the "truth" she knows that will surely shut us all up? Surely you'd like to stick it to us too and her "truth" apparently would do it. I'd like to see that every 5th post instead of the troll monologue. It evidently isn't working.
NO FISHING TONIGHT!!!!!! SORRY!!!!!!!
Tim said...
heardenuf,
Respectively, what you seem to be seeking is violation of governmental law.
Response:
If there is a legal reason it cannot be shared, piglet could just say so. At what point will it be allowed to be revealed. That is all I'm asking. If piglet says she can't say for legal reasons and that a reasonable date is coming when she can, I will be satisfied.
"While these things exist, we as the church are held to a higher standard."
Response: I don't get this, could you clarify what you mean. Piglet said I'm dense, so help me out! ;)
Here is an antedote to the poison of GCM. This is what used to be preached in our churches before pastors became celebrities:
http://www.ccel.org/e/edwards/sermons/sinners.html
China,
I have never directed a post at you. I know that sometimes other posters 'let loose' on you.
You got that right...
I would like to ask you a few simple 'short reply' questions;
Send them my way.
The questions are pretty straitforward, but I want to see if you are willing first before I post them. Give it a go?
Go!
charlie fox said...
NO FISHING TONIGHT!!!!!! SORRY!!!!!!!
Response: Chicken! ;)
Seriously, unless as Tim alluded, it is a legal matter, I will continue to ask for facts when people state they know them but can't say.
READ THE SIGN!! NO FISHING!!!!
4545 said...
All of you know-it-alls on here that say nothing. Put your money where your mouth is. Not more rumors and lies, but if you have facts we are all ears.
I will be glad to introuce indisputable fact #1:
Steve Gaines knew almost 4 months ago that Paul Williams confessed to a "moral indescretion". At that time Steve Gaines did not dismiss PW from his position. Today we learn that PW did indeed commit an act of "moral indescretion" that, in the eyes of the church administration warrants dismissal.
Why does it take a comittee to research the fact that a minister needs to be canned? That is because the administrator in charge of making the tough decisions does not have the ability (guts?) to make the tough call.
That is a FACT!
All of you know-it-alls on here that say nothing. Put your money where your mouth is. Not more rumors and lies, but if you have facts we are all ears.
Charlie,
Please stop...your posts are not contributing to anything. Please...just chill. I'm asking you politely, can you please do that?
Show to everyone here you can do something "nice" for the opposing side.
The Truth is important to God imo:
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
1 Samuel 12:24 Only fear the LORD, and serve him in truth with all your heart: for consider how great things he hath done for you.
Psalm 25:10 All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.
Psalm 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.
Psalm 51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Psalm 57:10 For thy mercy is great unto the heavens, and thy truth unto the clouds.
Psalm 86:11 Teach me thy way, O LORD; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name.
Psalm 146:5-6 Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the LORD his God:
Which made heaven, and earth, the sea, and all that therein is: which keepeth truth for ever.
Proverbs 12:19 The lip of truth shall be established for ever: but a lying tongue is but for a moment.
Isaiah 59:14-15 And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter. Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.
Jeremiah 5:3 O LORD, are not thine eyes upon the truth? thou hast stricken them, but they have not grieved; thou hast consumed them, but they have refused to receive correction: they have made their faces harder than a rock; they have refused to return.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
DON'T TAKE THE BAIT!!!!!! THAT IS WHAT THEY WANT YOU TO DO!!!!!!!
Charlie,
There is no bait. Just a simple request from one Christian to another. Can you honor my request? If not, why?
THE FISH AREN'T BITING TONIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ace: here goes
1. do you think SG will resign?
2. do you think their should be a confidence vote brought to the congregation?
3. do you think that a vote of confidence for a pastor should be a simple majority?
4. do you think the bylaws should be updated to allow more congregational participation in larger church financial decision,example- $25000 gift?
5. do you agree with standing ovations for anyone in a church service?
6. If SG was voted out, or resigned, would you leave BBC?
7. SG leans more toward Armenian theology. Do you, or are you a Calvinist?
8. Do you have an opinion on Calvinism, known as the Doctrines of Grace?
Karen asks: "Is Joel Osteen seeker sensitive?"
He is their king. But he is NOT in the club. He does not hang with the Hybels, Warrens, Bells, etc.
His dad was Baptist. Joel took over the smallish church and now meets in the Compaq Center in Houston. 30,000 strong believing in 'Your Best Life Now'.
BTW: One thing that concerns the SBC is the lack of mega's. Most are non-denominational. Even Saddleback down plays their Baptist roots. And others are taking the word Baptist off because it is NOT sensitive to seekers who think it means no dancing or card playing. There is a big push to grow mega's.
Maybe Gaines can be their new king!
It's time to forgive Steve Gaines and move on.
Sunday, David Coombs will report to us that in June of 2006, Paul Williams told Steve Gaines that he sodomized his son in his preteen years. Paul Williams told Steve Gaines his son was the only victim and that he had already asked forgiveness. Steve Gaines replied that as far as he was concerned, "it's under the blood".
Steve Gaines may be sorry he asked David Coombs to head this investigation. Nothing will be held back in this report. Good job David Coombs. Why did Harry Smith have to be in charge of the Communications Committee that couldn't tell the truth about anything?
With the knowledge Steve Gaines had in June, why would he keep Paul Williams on staff? It wasn't his descision to make. The Bible says that Paul Williams was not fit to be a minister any longer and Steve Gaines chose to keep him.
For this, not only is Paul Williams gone but there is no other choice but for our church to ask Steve Gaines to leave.
This decision to ask Steve Gaines to leave should be immediate. With all of the wrong decisions Steve Gaines has made, there is no other choice if our church is to heal.
I have always told my children, "When you tell the truth ALL the time, I can believe you all the time. When you tell the truth SOME of the time, I can't believe you any of the time." So, it goes for anyone, including pastors of mega-churches.
Also, please don't be so quick to disparage a man of God because you don't like his methodologies. Rick Warren is a brother. He planted a church with 12 people and it has grown to the church it is.
They do incredible things in many countries like Africa and Asia. There are many, many babies alive this day because of the compassionate work of and generosity of people from Saddleback Church. I know that the seeker-sensitive methodology of church growth is very distateful to many -- me included. But, let us not attack a brother and a church because of methodology.
What Saddleback teaches in the area of theology and biblical doctrine falls under the pale of orthodoxy. We can disagree, but not be disagreeable about these things (I believe I once heard a great man named Adrian Rogers who pastored a great church say that.
China,
1. do you think SG will resign?
No.
2. do you think their should be a confidence vote brought to the congregation?
Yes and SG would win the vote.
3. do you think that a vote of confidence for a pastor should be a simple majority?
Yes
4. do you think the bylaws should be updated to allow more congregational participation in larger church financial decision,example- $25000 gift?
They should know who the money is going to but it shouldn't be up to the congregation to deceide whether people get the money or not.
5. do you agree with standing ovations for anyone in a church service?
Yes.
6. If SG was voted out, or resigned, would you leave BBC?
It depends. More than likely, no.
7. SG leans more toward Armenian theology. Do you, or are you a Calvinist?
I am Armenian, I am not a Calvinist.
8. Do you have an opinion on Calvinism, known as the Doctrines of Grace?
Yes, would you like to hear it?
Piglet said...
CORRECTED POST: NASS DELETE FIRST ONE PLEASE, NO TRASHCAN :(
I think the exchange tonight was very revealing. There are those who vehemently OPPOSE transparency in any church business as Tim said. Wonder who those folks might be...
On the one hand they say there are no issues.
Response: Please, can you use quotes. It's not that hard and helps people to follow quick moving threads.
"When you present issues, they want proof."
Response: And that's a problem because...?
"When you reuest a forum to do that, they say there are no issues."
Response: Hypothetically...you never get a forum(other than this blog) are you going to keep what you know secret?
"Then they accuse US of tearing down the church. We are not tearing down a church. We are dismantling their empire. My guess is things are going to get uglier."
Response: Empire = exaggeration
"I've talked to more peoiple recently, and regardless of their stance, they agree that more transparency and accountability can be nothing but a good thing."
Response: I agree. Be transparent and accountable for us and tell us what you know...please.
"I urge more of you toapproach your friends and acquaintances with this issue of outdated bylaws, scheduled business meetings, and leadership accountability. I haven't met a person yert that is against this."
Response: I've covered that previously
"Sorry, Charlie, to ignore your warnings but I wanted Heardenuf to admit they do NOT want resolution here. They like things just the way they are."
I didn't say I din't want resolution. Please use quotes and try to quote me accurately. I do that for you so no one will get the wrong impression of you. I want them to get the right impression of you! I would like things a lot better if you and those who claim facts but won't support them would leave the rest of us alone.
"Ace can't answer my what-if question because I asked how a member who becomes aware of corruption in the church should address it. He obviously does not want there to be any recourse for anyone who becomes aware of wrongdoing."
Response: what? When did he say this. Qoute please for clarification. I forgot, you don't do that.
"THESE PEOPLE ARE AGAINST ANY INVOLVEMENT OF THE MEMBERSHIP."
Response: Not "any" involvement, only by those who say things they can't/won't back up.
Can anyone guess why?
"The truth is, a meeting, maybe several, WILL take place. s Tim said, it is just a matter of where."
Response: Great, post it here so we can all come and hear the "truth". Please call the papers/tv etc.
You company men are in rare form this evening; guess you all did have a bad day in the librul media. In the spirit of kindness, we'll cut you some slack.
They are really sweating it, y'all. The extra flak is telling. Push for the on campus meeting.
heardenuf,
The issues of importance do not revolve around legal wranglings that should be taken into a federal court room.
The issues revolve around how the body of Christ should function.
Do we represent a Biblical model of church governance?
Does the lack of transparency afford the opportunity for undue power and control?
Does the lack of transparency and accountability foster the opportunity for undue financial gain at the expense of the church?
The root issue is should we strive to serve each member as if they were the only member. If these things can be accomplished in a church with 100 members then they can be accomplished in a church with 100,000 members. Perhaps not by the exact same methods, but every member should have the same opportunities to share, to love, to serve and even question.
If it were not possible then Biblical principles would not have mandated it.
It will be tomorrow before I can elaborate further. There are other pressing matters that I must attend to at the moment.
Hopefully, I answered your question.
Thanks Esther for the insight. I thought that about Joel Osteen. All fluff and no substance. My daughter is reading his book and loving it. I will have to enlighten her on what I have found out.
Keep it up Charlie. They don't like to be ignored, do they?
forgiveandmoveon said...
It's time to forgive Steve Gaines and move on.
Sunday, David Coombs will report to us that in June of 2006, Paul Williams told Steve Gaines that he sodomized his son in his preteen years. Paul Williams told Steve Gaines his son was the only victim and that he had already asked forgiveness. Steve Gaines replied that as far as he was concerned, "it's under the blood".
Steve Gaines may be sorry he asked David Coombs to head this investigation. Nothing will be held back in this report. Good job David Coombs. Why did Harry Smith have to be in charge of the Communications Committee that couldn't tell the truth about anything?
With the knowledge Steve Gaines had in June, why would he keep Paul Williams on staff? It wasn't his descision to make. The Bible says that Paul Williams was not fit to be a minister any longer and Steve Gaines chose to keep him.
For this, not only is Paul Williams gone but there is no other choice but for our church to ask Steve Gaines to leave.
This decision to ask Steve Gaines to leave should be immediate. With all of the wrong decisions Steve Gaines has made, there is no other choice if our church is to heal.
Response: You seem to be very familiar with the report. Perhaps you can tell us more about Paul and Steve's conversation. Is it covered in the report? Does the report reccomend anything be done to Steve?
Did anyone else know?
You say that Steve Gaines may be sorry he asked David Coombs to head the team, can you clarify.
I'm not trying to be smart, these are all things we will know on Sunday, but if you would care to spread a little light on the subject it would be most helpful to the discussion here.
Thanks.
esther,
Thanks for the info - this problem is so far beyond Bellevue. I have been so sheltered and safe at BBC, maybe that's why all this happened; to make those like me question what's going on around them instead of going with the flow.
I really admire you and enjoy your posts.
karen
PS: is it okay for me to occasionally laugh at Jesse Duplantis even though I know he's in it for the $$? :)
The post at 10:39 PM, January 22, 2007 is not from me. click on the profile. I am the one with 900+ profile views.
Ace, I know who you are. Do you want me to say right here or do you want me to tell you in e-mail?
Your choice, and if I don't hear back from you in 5 minutes, I'm posting it here.
AoG,
Even Bunyan had a slip of the pen every now and then; can you imagine if he had to deal with keyboard---stop bustin' my chops man...good one though...those Armenians, tent makers, I believe
Ace,
Thanks for responding...and might I add...you must type like 250 words a minute! It took, like 14 seconds for you to read and answer the questions. And yes, I would like to hear your thoughts on Calvinism, as would the other DoG'rs in here, if you would be so kind as to oppine
What was Paul Williams thinking 17 years ago and since each time he got behind the pulpit to pray and preach? What was he thinking when he was in his office alone with victims of sexual abuse? What was his own family thinking when they saw their dad and husband masquerading as a pastor?
It's time to move on without Steve Gaines as our leader. He has lost our trust.
tim said:
It will be tomorrow before I can elaborate further. There are other pressing matters that I must attend to at the moment.
Hopefully, I answered your question.
Thank you Tim for clarifying. I understand your points. My problem is with piglet who claims to have "truth" but won't share it. I think your points are valid and should be discussed openly, I just don't know if you can do it in a church the size of Bellevue without it becoming a free for all.
I look forward to hearing what you have to say.
Trollcates,
I am not sweating a single thing.
to the info holders:
I still think you should put your money where your mouth is. Lording secret information over people's heads does not help your cause. period.
Here's another thought this evening:
Ephesians 6.12
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
Fighting with each other on this blog kind of feels like missing the point after reading that.
Like someone already mentioned this evening, the fruit of the Spirit is... self control.
You are Stephen Coombs, David Coombs eldest son.
Does your dad know that you are posting on this blog?
"Also, please don't be so quick to disparage a man of God because you don't like his methodologies. Rick Warren is a brother. He planted a church with 12 people and it has grown to the church it is."
Sweetie, do you know HOW he grew his church? When you research the truth, let me know.
Also, did you know he goes into Jewish Synagogues and teaches PDL methodology and never once mentions Jesus? NOT ONCE. How do I know? The Jews praised him for this and I have seen the videos of his teaching there.
"They do incredible things in many countries like Africa and Asia. There are many, many babies alive this day because of the compassionate work of and generosity of people from Saddleback Church. "
Works saves no one. It IS nice. But then he turns around and goes to Syria and tells everyone that Christians there are living in peace with the Muslims. (They aren't. They are persecuted horribly. He may have even endangered some of them by his foolishness)
"I know that the seeker-sensitive methodology of church growth is very distateful to many -- me included. But, let us not attack a brother and a church because of methodology."
He is no brother of mine. I profess Jesus no matter where I am.
"What Saddleback teaches in the area of theology and biblical doctrine falls under the pale of orthodoxy."
NOt sure what you mean, but I have been seriously attending to SAddleback for the past 10 years. I know what I see and hear with my own eyes. IT is NOT the scripture he is promoting.
Here is a link to a PDL discernment tool if you are so inclined to learn why it is heresy: http://www.cicministry.org/berean.php
" We can disagree, but not be disagreeable about these things (I believe I once heard a great man named Adrian Rogers who pastored a great church say that. "
I don't care who said what. When it comes to false teachers, I am going to scream it from the roof tops until they stone me to death.
forgiveandmoveon said...
What was Paul Williams thinking 17 years ago and since each time he got behind the pulpit to pray and preach? What was he thinking when he was in his office alone with victims of sexual abuse? What was his own family thinking when they saw their dad and husband masquerading as a pastor?
Response: What does it matter what Paul thinks or thought, he's gone.
"It's time to move on without Steve Gaines as our leader. He has lost our trust."
Response: Wow, you moved rather quickly from Paul's thought life to getting rid of Steve. Tell us how you really feel. ;)
Knower of all,
Email me if you want...
or post it, I don't care.
-the real ace.
bepatient,
You replied? Are you saying you're a company man? Hmmm...
Ace,
which ace are you
the reformed ace or the arminian ace?
bepatient said:to the info holders:
"I still think you should put your money where your mouth is. Lording secret information over people's heads does not help your cause. period. "
Response: Well said. I couldn't have said it better...oh wait I have been just not better necessarily. ;)
Esther
Guys listen to me: GET IN YOUR BIBLES Quick!!! Do NOT believe a word I say...Believe scripture...all of it in context. Pray for illumination from the Holy Spirit. This Christianity we all profess is a WALK. IT is NOT THE EASY PATH you are being led to believe. It is a path of suffering for HIS NAME
Piglet says:
SO TRUE! I thought standing up for truth and transparency was a no-brainer. It's amazing how much persecution there is for it these days.
Truly spiritual warfare.
Very intense.
That's okay. I haven't begun to suffer as much as HE did. :)
Folks, there is an imposter here. For the posts by Ace, click on the profile...I have 900+ views...the other account has only 5 or so.
It's sad that you people have to resort to this type of tactic.
Steve Gaines should stand before our church Sunday and ask for forgiveness and then resign. No pastor would ever treat his sheep this way. If he cares for us, he will resign so healing can take place.
China,
Can I respond to your issue later? There is a fake Ace going around here and is only causing confusion. Feel free to email me if you want. acefrombbc@gmail.com
Whoever is posting as ace, knock it off! You're not helping - the real Ace has over 913 views to his profile. The other ace who needs to rewind his Barney tape had 4.
It's not funny!
karen
Knower of all said...
You are Stephen Coombs, David Coombs eldest son.
Does your dad know that you are posting on this blog?
Response: I thought ace was Wayne Vander Steeg's youngest son ( see above post). I can't keep up with all of this.
Act 1:18
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness...
bepatient said...
'I still think you should put your money where your mouth is. Lording secret information over people's heads does not help your cause. period."
It is not a secret, it is out there, ask people in charge for informaton. Call people.
I will go so far as to tell you that if you ask "some" folks in leadership, you may get labeled. The ones here that have information will come out in person in an open meeting - if we ever get one, that is all we ask. Can you fix that?
AoG,
The 'Bull' is officially watching for typos...be warned:)
forgiveandmoveon said...
Steve Gaines should stand before our church Sunday and ask for forgiveness and then resign. No pastor would ever treat his sheep this way. If he cares for us, he will resign so healing can take place.
Response: Your opinion is duly noted.
Now how about anymore details of the report?
Thanks Karen.
The following posts need to be deleted NASS:
10:39 PM, January 22, 2007
10:41 PM, January 22, 2007
10:43 PM, January 22, 2007
10:46 PM, January 22, 2007
10:49 PM, January 22, 2007
I trust you'll take care of this as you took care of Tim's problem with a troublemaker the other day. Thank you in advance.
1 Timothy 3:1-2
Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task. Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,...
mom4 said:
I will go so far as to tell you that if you ask "some" folks in leadership, you may get labeled. "The ones here that have information will come out in person in an open meeting - if we ever get one, that is all we ask. Can you fix that?"
Response: Let me get this straight... they will come out in an open meeting, but won't post the information here behind a name like piglet?
That doesn't make sense to me. Please help me understand.
"Thanks Esther for the insight. I thought that about Joel Osteen. All fluff and no substance. My daughter is reading his book and loving it. I will have to enlighten her on what I have found out."
Go easy, it is hard to reach young people who are looking for something that 'works'. Encourage her to do a study with you on 1 John or Matthew 7. Say nothing about Osteen. Let her discover the truth by your prayers, fasting and study.
Her 'best life now' if she follows Christ could be persecution. A far cry from Joel's doctrine.
I often wonder if people dying of terminal cancer are reading Your Best Life NOW.
1 Timothy 3:3-5
not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?
Trollcates,
I prefer Kool Aid drinker myself, but company man is fine.
bepatient,
Would you like a straw with that? ;)
You know I'm just playing!
karen
Piglet said...
Heardenuf said:
And I believe you'll get that meeting if you show reason(facts) for that meeting to occur. Not just another venting session.
Piglet says:
It's been presented and you don't believe it!
Response: Because you refuse to give documentation such as names.
"I'm glad this decision is not up to you."
Response: Me too, wit, who says it's not. Hmmmm.
If this blog is such a disaster and such a blemish on our reputation as a church,you should want this settled.
Response: I do, and you could settle it by telling us what you know instead of spending all of this time "feeding the trolls."
"I'm wondering why a meeting bothers you."
Response,: It does not bother me. I don't think it will happen, so just tell us n ow what you would say in this meeting that would reveal "truth" Please, I beg of you. I'm tired of asking.
At the next scheduled interview at Bellevue, here is a tip. Please have David C. at the least wear a tie.
Why would Bellevue allow him to represent our Church dressing like that?
Many of our members were embarrassed with the way he was dressed.
Can you imagine Dr. Rogers giving an interview without a tie?
Well, as stated before, if you would at least tell us WHY you can't tell, we might be willing to help.
I have never said I would support anyone in leadership no matter what. If you have something to offer, feel free to email me or post it here, but until then I feel called to respect the authority of my church and not assume the worst of them.
I posted this early this morning...it is probably worth another run.
The Suffering of a Christian - Just Food for Thought
As you read through these scriptures, just know that you are standing for Jesus and that though you are being ridiculed and persecuted, it is in doing what is right in His namesake! God bless everyone of you who understand and can discern the present times of turmoil in the church. And we must remember to be in prayer for those who do not understand. Pray for the scales to be removed from their eyes. Now the scriptures:
Acts 5:41 They went on their way from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name.
Acts 14:22 Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.
Romans 5:3-5 We also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance . . . proven character . . . hope, and hope does not disappoint . . .
Philippians 1:29 For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake.
Philippians 3:8 I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish in order that I may gain Christ.
1 Thessalonians 3:3 . . . so that no man may be disturbed by these afflictions for you yourselves know that we have been destined for this.
Hebrews 5:8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
Hebrews 12:6,11 For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son who He receives. All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful, yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
James 1:2-4 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, that you may be perfect and complete lacking nothing.
James 5:10-11 As an example, brethren, of suffering and patience, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. Behold, we count those blessed who endured. You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome of the Lords dealings, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful.
2 Timothy 3:12 All who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.
1 Peter 4:16,19 If anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not feel ashamed, but in that name let him glorify God. Let those also who suffer according to the will of God entrust their souls to a faithful creater in doing what is right.
Good night all,
Ace I hope you get you identity back.
forgiveandmoveon: Maybe Gaines was reading the Message? Or, the NLT? Does it say the same things about an overseer?
People,
In a matter of 10 minutes I totally threw Ace off his game. That is what he and others do to you every day all day long. Don't fall for it. Ignore it! Do not bother responding. You will never get real debate or facts from those guys. Ace is clearly an insider or close to an insider. His job is not to inform you. It is to disrupt you and to report on the blog.
Legitimate disagreement is fine. That is not what 4545 and Ace are about. Heardenuf is a trouble maker too. I am sure I am leaving others out.
Totally ignore them. They say nothing worth responding to anyway.
The Fake Ace
Steve,
Thanks for the laugh. :)
Steve said...
At the next scheduled interview at Bellevue, here is a tip. Please have David C. at the least wear a tie.
Why would Bellevue allow him to represent our Church dressing like that?
Many of our members were embarrassed with the way he was dressed.
Can you imagine Dr. Rogers giving an interview without a tie?
11:02 PM, January 22, 2007
-------
ditto
Karen,
I was just kidding as well! :-)
I love Kool Aid in real life though. Although I must admit I will never look at it quite the same way!
I think it's safe to assume that The Fake Ace = Charlie Fox.
If I'm wrong, sorry Charlie...but I think I'm right since you just...disappeared.
Troll #1 said...
Question - Could it be that SG made the decision to leave Paul Williams in the position because he knew exactly who made the decision NOT to fire him 17 years ago? Could those people include the highest leaders of the church at that time?
Response: I'll bite. I don't believe that anyone on staff knew 17 years ago. I guess we'll see, but I don't believe Dr. Rogers knew at all. Now maybe some people knew more recently, but I doubt that we will ever k now their names.
"I find it interesting that people here are much angrier with SG than with PW."
Response: Me too.
"I am angry at PW! What made him believe that he was above the retribution for such a horrific act? It seems there is not enough here about his blame in choosing to stay or about the people that let him stay 17 years ago?"
Response: Once again, I don't think anyone knew while it was going on or they would have acted. Do you know something we don't? I'm all about the facts please.
"is it okay for me to occasionally laugh at Jesse Duplantis even though I know he's in it for the $$? :) "
I have to because I have wept over them for too long.
Do you know how many times Rick Warren has publicly violated Matthew 6? As a pastor, this is incredible: It is in the hundreds. He has done it on Fox, ABC, CBS, CNN, WAPO, NYT, etc., ad nauseum. It amazes me. He either does not know scripture at all (Well, he did go to Fuller) OR, he does know and does not care. Why?
I agree with 4545, Steve should have fired Paul in June.
Ace,
I know that there is an imposter out there, and maybe he wont answer this question. Of course I don't agree down the line with you...I suspect you knew I wouldn't; question: why shouldn't the congregation get to decide whether or not a donation is given to somebody or an organization or not? Is this solely the work of committees in your opinion?
About the ovations, I personally dont like an ovation for anyone, not just the pastor...(a hearty amen would do); it just seems so irreverent...this whole argument about 'well you do it at the ball game' doesn't wash with me, because, well, we're not at the ballgame, we're in GOD's house, and personally, it just seems to take glory away from GOD when ovations are given to people, even when they've done things to 'honor' GOD. jmo
heardenuf,
I'm angry at Steve too. Thanks for sharing.
Esther,
I guess after having observed the conversation that prevails here from many, I am not surprised by your mean-spirited and bitter-laden response.
I actually am in agreement with most of what has been written and called for on this blog. However, I must admit that it is hard to stomach that position when it requires some degree of association with the toxic, purtrescent spewing of words as you just displayed towards me.
I know very well exactly what Saddleback has done and I know fully and extensively how Saddleback grew - trust me you don't want to debate my knowledge on this, though you are, of course, free to debate my propositions. However, I won't engage you again until you came back as your next inarnation with a different nomenclature. I know theology, I know eschatology, and I know ecclesiology and I know the Bible having been a believer now for many decades and I have been involved with studying Saddleback and others for a long time. I will not dignify your lack of civility with a litany of my bona fides as it would be a wasted effort. And it is not your ilk to whom I directed that my posting.
It is a shame that you can so dangerously and arbitrarily dispose MY brother and all those who know Jesus'brother, Rick, to the status of not a Christian. I can only assume that is what you meant as I know you surely consider yourself a Christian and if Rick isn't your brother then your implication or at least my inference can only be that you assume he isn't. I think that says all that needs to be said on the veracity and the validity of anything you would have to say.
To those with some degree of Spirit-filled fruitfulness like gentleness and kindness, please just understand that because you disagree doesn't make the other, even if they are wrong, evil or even blasphemous. I wonder if the spirit in which these words were cast could be considered more evil than the "wrong" ecclesiology that it being attacked?
I return to the sane and safe world of "lurking"!!
Andrew said...
Steve said...
At the next scheduled interview at Bellevue, here is a tip. Please have David C. at the least wear a tie.
Response: You're kidding right? Maybe we should have gotten someone a little thinner too?!?!
"Why would Bellevue allow him to represent our Church dressing like that?"
Response: We need a meeting to discuss the attire of staff when discussing pedophilia with the press. Maybe we could get it in the by laws. Please, can we start a new thread on this?
"Many of our members were embarrassed with the way he was dressed."
Response: I am embarrassed of this blog and this discussion. I hope you are tongue in cheek on all of this. I'll pretend that you are.
"Can you imagine Dr. Rogers giving an interview without a tie? "
On July 4... no thighs and no ties! ;)
Please tell me you were being facetious...please.
Foxx said...
heardenuf,
I'm angry at Steve too. Thanks for sharing.
Response: Uhhhh, I'm sorry, you lost me!
As far as standing O's, I think in a mega church, since we can't all come up and congratulate the people that sing, etc and share with them how we felt- the standing Os help take the place of that. It is just a show of recognition and appreciation, not worship.
Yet another. Foxx is now trying to confuse
heard...
NO one is going to release the information here because the church staff, BFC teachers and congregation have been told NOT to read the "sinner's blog" and like good little muffins, they don't. Therefore they are in the dark and will stay there until the information is in front of their faces. Hence a MEETING. Can you fix that up for us?
Esther,
We have a man on staff saved through the ministry of Kenneth Hagin.
Sow a seed anyone?
"Why would Bellevue allow him to represent our Church dressing like that?"
Part of the GCM play book. Appeals to seekers. seekers do not want to get dressed up to go to church. Ask Rick Warren.
Ya'll have an organ? Maybe not for long....:o)
China,
why shouldn't the congregation get to decide whether or not a donation is given to somebody or an organization or not? Is this solely the work of committees in your opinion?
I think people will always find something to argue about for any donation made and they'll complain. Perhaps if there is a HUGE uproar of complaints they should reconsider it...does that make sense? Because you are always going to have your whiners to prevent things from being accomplished. I believe the the committees should be more responsible for stuff relating to this. And, of course, it should be prayed over...which was a mistake this one time which I am sure won't happen again.
About ovations...I think it's a great way to tell our pastor that we love him....and I'll leave it at that. :)
FAKE ACE-
Stop, please. You are being used as a tool of Satan.
trucker said...
Esther
The final act will be when Bellevue becomes part of TBN and then we will see Benny Hinn, the Crouches and the rest of that bunch all speaking at Bellevue.Embraceing and being embraced by Steve Gaines.
Response: It's funny you mention that. I remember Dr. Rogers talking about eating dinner at TBN with Jan Crouch. A funny story.
The report from David Coombs will not be the last word on Steve Gaines and his mistake with Paul Williams.
Stay tuned. Steve Gaines, if you are reading this, please resign Sunday from your sheep. We will forgive you and send you on your way and wish you the best. Let our church heal.
"I know very well exactly what Saddleback has done and I know fully and extensively how Saddleback grew - trust me you don't want to debate my knowledge on this, though you are, of course, free to debate my propositions. However, I won't engage you again until you came back as your next inarnation with a different nomenclature. I know theology, I know eschatology, and I know ecclesiology and I know the Bible having been a believer now for many decades and I have been involved with studying Saddleback and others for a long time. I will not dignify your lack of civility with a litany of my bona fides as it would be a wasted effort. And it is not your ilk to whom I directed that my posting. "
I have no lofty bonafides. I am just a poor follower of Christ.
Heardenuf
Gee,I'm so proud to have gotten your goat! You haven't stopped talking about me all evening.
I can't give other people's testimony on the blog, now can I? I could but then we'd be right back where we started.
Just be sure and get a front row seat at our upcoming meeting so you can hear okay.
Until then, be studying up on the Mark Sharpe interviews and other such items of interest on SavingBellevue.
We'll try to save some surprises for the meeting, though.
And quit flattering me. I'm NOT the one with all the info. Not by a long shot. ;)
Esther said...
"Why would Bellevue allow him to represent our Church dressing like that?"
Part of the GCM play book. Appeals to seekers. seekers do not want to get dressed up to go to church. Ask Rick Warren.
Ya'll have an organ? Maybe not for long....:o)"
Response: Help me out here. Which one of the disciples commented on Jesus' tie at the Last Supper?
You should really preview your pst and think twice before posting.
MOM4,
I think we need an open-mike meeting too. Even if it takes days we should do it. We can start Fridy night and go round the clock until we get some answers. I think we should call Craig Parker back so he can man the office computers. He can spit out some answers in no time. We also need Mark Sharpe, David Smith, Rob Mullins, Jim Whitmire, Joyce Rogers, and Mike Spradlin available in shifts.
We'll call the Colonel and have him bring in big buckets of chicken. (plenty of Dr. Pepper please!) It will be like a long camp meeting. When we leave we will be rid of a lot of problems and our church will be on the road to recovery.
I love you by the way. You remind me so much of my own mother.
Steve said...
At the next scheduled interview at Bellevue, here is a tip. Please have David C. at the least wear a tie.
Response: You're kidding right? Maybe we should have gotten someone a little thinner too?!?!
"Why would Bellevue allow him to represent our Church dressing like that?"
Response: We need a meeting to discuss the attire of staff when discussing pedophilia with the press. Maybe we could get it in the by laws. Please, can we start a new thread on this?
"Many of our members were embarrassed with the way he was dressed."
Response: I am embarrassed of this blog and this discussion. I hope you are tongue in cheek on all of this. I'll pretend that you are.
"Can you imagine Dr. Rogers giving an interview without a tie? "
On July 4... no thighs and no ties! ;)
Please tell me you were being facetious...please.
11:11 PM, January 22, 2007
Heardenuf,
July the fourth is an outside event.
Jan, 22 2007 was an interview that will be played out many times on TV. Television.
Please tell me you are kiding and that you think that a tie is an appropriate attire.
I hope you were tongue and cheek. Would shorts and a tank top be OK??
Am I sending people to hell, too?
Stay tuned for what forgiveandmoveon? For what?
1. I for one am sick of the threats from all the great Christians on this hate filled blog
2. You might want to change your name.
AoG
considering ace's last post, would you like for me show why my name is china shop bull?
The dam has broken
China,
Which post are you referring to?
11:18 PM, January 22, 2007
is not me BTW
-ace
Charlie, you are baiting me...nice to follow your own instructions.
Anyone hanging on to Steve better get to higher ground.
Ace wrote: We have a man on staff saved through the ministry of Kenneth Hagin."
Is he one of the Gaines worshippers?
AoG
considering ace's last post to me
China,
why shouldn't the congregation get to decide whether or not a donation is given to somebody or an organization or not? Is this solely the work of committees in your opinion?
I think people will always find something to argue about for any donation made and they'll complain. Perhaps if there is a HUGE uproar of complaints they should reconsider it...does that make sense? Because you are always going to have your whiners to prevent things from being accomplished. I believe the the committees should be more responsible for stuff relating to this. And, of course, it should be prayed over...which was a mistake this one time which I am sure won't happen again.
About ovations...I think it's a great way to tell our pastor that we love him....and I'll leave it at that. :)
would you like for me show why my name is china shop bull?
aog-waiting for the greenlight
Piglet said...
Heardenuf
Gee,I'm so proud to have gotten your goat! You haven't stopped talking about me all evening.
Response: You know you got my goat long ago. Remember the finance thing about Ted Minor and Craig Parker? That got my goat too. What did you find out, or will that be in the "meeting" too?
"I can't give other people's testimony on the blog, now can I?"
Response: Why not, others do. Maybe you could hint.
" I could but then we'd be right back where we started."
Response: I wish we'd started at the truth because that's where I'd like to go back to.
"Just be sure and get a front row seat at our upcoming meeting so you can hear okay."
Response: I would love to come. Please post the time and place and I'll be there!
"Until then, be studying up on the Mark Sharpe interviews and other such items of interest on SavingBellevue."
Response: Which part, the Craig Parker stuff? Where has Mark been by the way? Where's Craig?
"We'll try to save some surprises for the meeting, though."
Response: Seriously, why? For dramatic affect? I don't get this.
"And quit flattering me. I'm NOT the one with all the info. Not by a long shot. ;)"
Response: But you type and act like you are. All you had to say was, "I'm not the one with all the info" 2-3 days ago or even 150 posts ago and I could have gone to bed. I tried to and you called me "dense" . Just sticking up for myself.
Ace wrote: We have a man on staff saved through the ministry of Kenneth Hagin."
Actually, he was saved by the blood of Jesus Christ.
esther,
He is one of the men who braced Riad Saba and told him he could no longer teach his Sunday School class.
Yes, he is a Gaines guy.
Let's take a poll.
Is it appropriate for the Associate Pastor to wear shorts and a tank top when speaking to the media?
Who is the real Associate Pastor?
Mark D. or David C.
My last post was very mean. It is meant to make a point. NO mere man is above the teaching of scripture. Those that are willing to overlook the fact that thier PASTOR/Shepherd/Elder/Teacher of the Word just happened to overlook scripture on this very important issue are fooling themselves.
You are following a man. A mere man. Not scripture. The fact that you can trust him to be under the authority of Christ scares me to no end. He has proven he is NOT over a very important issue.
(ok, throw stones. I am off to bed.)
Esther said...
Ace wrote: We have a man on staff saved through the ministry of Kenneth Hagin."
Is he one of the Gaines worshippers?
Response: Please... enough with the slams on people's salvation. Did Jesus not say, and I paraphrase here "if they be for us, how can they be against us?"
The gospel pierces men's hearts not the preacher.
Astounded said...
Ace wrote: We have a man on staff saved through the ministry of Kenneth Hagin."
Actually, he was saved by the blood of Jesus Christ.
11:26 PM, January 22, 2007
You get no argument from me there. Why be so nitpicky? You and everyone else knew what I meant.
Astounded said...
Ace wrote: We have a man on staff saved through the ministry of Kenneth Hagin."
Actually, he was saved by the blood of Jesus Christ.
Response: Yes, nut "through the ministry of..."
God used Balam's domkey, so he might as well use Kenneth Hagin. I'm sure the angels rejoiced just as much over his salvation as they did yours and mine.
I made no comment on his salvation. I believe the man is saved. I expect to have confirmation when we meet in eternity.
Dr. Rogers told him all that proves is God can hit the ball with a crooked bat. He is a friend of mine and I agree with Dr. Rogers.
Some of you are too sensitive. You go around like babies. As Ace would say: Grow up!
oops, that should have said:
Response: Yes, BUT "through the ministry of..."
forgineandmoveon said:
Anyone hanging on to Steve better get to higher ground.
Piglet said:
Very funny! From day one, I have pictured the whole group in a little boat with holes in it, bailing water.
The further down they go, the faster they bail! Makes a funny picture. :D
forgiveandmoveon said...
"Anyone hanging on to Steve better get to higher ground."
Why? I don't even understand what this means. I guess you could be referring to those in power but you didn't really clarify.
NASS,
Are you still deleting Ace's posts? Because I haven't posted much lately and this guy keeps posting. If you could finish them off, it would be appreciated...
Steve said...
Let's take a poll.
Is it appropriate for the Associate Pastor to wear shorts and a tank top when speaking to the media?
Who is the real Associate Pastor?
Mark D. or David C.
11:27 PM, January 22, 2007
NASS,
You do a great job running the blog. I know it take a lot of time and dedication.
Charlie, thanks for all your hard work.
steve said:
Heardenuf,
July the fourth is an outside event.
Jan, 22 2007 was an interview that will be played out many times on TV. Television.
Please tell me you are kiding and that you think that a tie is an appropriate attire.
I hope you were tongue and cheek. Would shorts and a tank top be OK?? "
Response: You were serious then? I think a tie would have been nice, but I don't see the make or break here. I thought maybe YOU were kidding, but now that I see you're not, I think you might need to lighten up. You did lidten to what David said didn't you?
I have read post after post concerning SG and his preaching and the Seeker Sensitive issue. I have tried to come up with a comparison.
A ten year old can stand in the pulpit and read scripture and fill in blanks without having to preach. SG sermons are so shallow I understand the Seek Sensitive motives now.
As a matter of fact a ten year old would make better decisions than SG has made.
1. A ten year old would be polite to his elders. [ Mr. Kelly.]
2. A ten year old would know better than to trespass on private property. [ He can read.]
3. A ten year old would know better than to lie about a dream.[ Moms always knows when a child lies.]
4. A ten year old would not hide the sin of another person. [ They have been taught the Ten Commandments.] [ And besides they tattle to a person in authority.]
JMO
ACE said...
You get no argument from me there. Why be so nitpicky? You and everyone else knew what I meant.
Actually I used your quote to illustrate the problems I see in the church today, and I even include the time when Dr. Rogers wa leading BBC.
It seems to me that far too much emphasis is being placed on man and his works. We talk about how many souls were led to jesus by Rock Warren, Adrian Rogers, Steve Ganes, et al. These men do not lead souls to Christ, that is the task of the Holy Spirit. That is why standing ovations are abhorrent to me (and I do use that word on purpose).
Too much of the modern church is based on how good we are doing at leading souls to Christ. We are worshipping the sanctuary, the pastor, the chior and the groundskeepers.
We are merely tools for Christ. I used a pair of slip-joint pliers to repair a leaky faucet at my home this weekend. I did not applaud the pliers for fixing the faucet. We as saints of Christ are no different.
Andrew,
I would certainly like to know of a possible meeting. You can e-mail I guess since I do not know any of you and would not hear by word of mouth.
Heardenuf,
Of course I listened to David C. Where is the respect as we represent our Lord and Savior as well as our Church.
Tooooo many mistakes of the mind. That is also a position that requires good people skills.
More hate from concerned
MOM4 said...
heard...
NO one is going to release the information here because the church staff, BFC teachers and congregation have been told NOT to read the "sinner's blog" and like good little muffins, they don't. Therefore they are in the dark and will stay there until the information is in front of their faces. Hence a MEETING. Can you fix that up for us?
Response: Give me a break! I'm no little muffin! ;)
Very simple:
1.Tell ME what you know...with documentation
2. I will not say you made it up
3. I will telll "the little muffins"
4. Maybe you will get your meeting.
Please stop hiding behind the meeting and tell ME SOMETHING!
Steve said- Of course I listened to David C. Where is the respect as we represent our Lord and Savior as well as our Church.
REPLY- WOW!! So we now have to wear certain clothing to respect and represent our Lord?
bbcmember
I would certainly like to know of a possible meeting. You can e-mail I guess since I do not know any of you and would not hear by word of mouth.
Piglet says:
Be watching the blog. But don't worry, we want all members to be aware of the meeting and we don't want anyone left out.
Just be praying about that being possible soon.
Concerned, I agree with 4545. That was an excellent post.
Steve said...
Heardenuf,
Of course I listened to David C. Where is the respect as we represent our Lord and Savior as well as our Church.
Response: Am I right to say that you think "the respect as we represent our Lord and Savior as well as our Church" comes from wearing a TIE?!?!
"Tooooo many mistakes of the mind. That is also a position that requires good people skills."
Response: Does anyone else believe this is a "mistake of the mind"? Not wearing a tie? That is what we are talking about, right?
Steve- I guess they wore ties in Jesus time? What a joke. That judgemental attitude is why many people in this city would never set foot in the doors at Bellevue.
Piglet says:
"Be watching the blog. But don't worry, we want all members to be aware of the meeting and we don't want anyone left out.
Just be praying about that being possible soon."
Response: I will be praying for that too! Can we geta headcount at the door?
To all posting tonight:
I am deeply embarrassed and ashamed of what I have seen going on here. It is apparent to me that the split that many have not wanted has finally begun. I was hoping that the revelation of the depths to which we tolerate sin at Bellevue would open eyes both mental and spiritual and it seems that the only thing accomplished has been to cement animosity and ignorance!
What was accomplished to further the kingdom and healing at Bellevue by the tirades and childishness we have seen demonstrated tonight?
It is obvious that passions arre running high, but where is the love of Christ? Have you decided to check all reason at the door for the sake of making a point? No winners here tonight.
I preferr open, honest and truthful discussion rooted in kindness to what I have seen tonight. Consider yourselves scolded and sent to the corner until you can calmly and with reason convers with oneanother (converse means to speak, i.e. verse with i.e. con). All we see tonight is everyone talking AT each other and noone listening.
This should be a night of grieving for where we have come to, not arguing.
Now there, don't you feel ashamed of yourselves?;)
Consider yourslves thoroughly scolded and come back to the grownups table to have a polite, reasoned and informed discussion.
As
I concur with 4545 and Ace.
Quit hiding. We are here, and we are listening. There is no reason you can't still have a meeting or proclaim what you know on a billboard. We can't stop you so I don't know what you have to lose by telling us. It seems like you could only gain more support.
4545 said...
Steve said- Of course I listened to David C. Where is the respect as we represent our Lord and Savior as well as our Church.
REPLY- WOW!! So we now have to wear certain clothing to respect and represent our Lord?
11:42 PM, January 22, 2007
4545,
WOW, and would a tanl top and shorts been ok for the interview today, yes or no?
Let's see if you can give a yes or no answer like i asked ??
allofgrace said...
heardenuf,
"4. Maybe you will get your meeting."
You got that kind of pull?
Response:
Maybe...maybe not. ;) I was kind of thinking about asking forgiveandmoveon since he knows so much or maybe ace/vander steeg/coombs/mary poppins whatever his real name is.
Just kidding ace...it's been a rough night for you!
Mom4
Heardenuf said
Please stop hiding behind the meeting and tell ME SOMETHING!
Piglet says to Mom4:
Heardenuf would be far less tense if he would just read the 5 months worth of material on this blog and SavingBellevue.
FOLKS: This is this real Ace. I have not posted in a LOOONG time. There is an imposter.
Thanks for showing how low your "side" will go, fake Ace. that's really sad and pathetic.
ACE said...
Steve,
It is essential to represent Bellevue with dignity. It it is inappropriate for Sunday morning it is inappropriate for media appearances. Thanks for raising this issue.
Response: Not the real ace...I presume?
Ace,
I want to thank for answering my questions. You have been forthright and honest. I appreciate that. However let me add:
You have no idea what the LORD's church is. His church is not committee run. It is congregationally ran by its members. If BBC has decided to do it through committees, then it has done so against the warrant of the scripture and begun the way of a reprobate church. As far as the pastor and the ovations, only a sycophant or fool would stand and applaud a spiritual leader for doing what is his calling, and if he(the leader) does not quickly and sharply rebuke them for doing so, he is a degenerate fleshly leader that is not worthy of his position and should be removed. If you want to show him love, quit feeding his ego...if you want to really love him, pray that the LORD would give him wisdom. As far as your opinion on Calvinism, keep it. Everything that you post points to the fact that you are either unregenerate or a reprobate and I'll not dare chance you to sully the true gospel with your darkened, filthy, vulgar, efiminate, arminian comments. You might call this being hateful. I call this being truthful. I dont play the cookie and coffee games that others do. This is the truth ace. You say you want facts, now you got some.
Ace- You are right. More pathetic actions by this wonderful group of Christian bloggers.
"We are merely tools for Christ. I used a pair of slip-joint pliers to repair a leaky faucet at my home this weekend. I did not applaud the pliers for fixing the faucet. We as saints of Christ are no different. "
AMEN, AMEN!
The truth is as scripture says: HE must increase, we must decrease.
The worship singers at my former mega are celebrities..recognized at Kroger from the big screen! Oh, the ovations for 'their' talent. We are being entertained right into hell.
Worship in Spirit and Truth. we must decrease.
When eyes are opened to the truth, this stuff all becomes so obvious. And it will sicken you in the name of our Savior, our Redeemer Who must be INCREASED.
(I am really really off now...promise)
ACE said...
Steve,
It is essential to represent Bellevue with dignity. It it is inappropriate for Sunday morning it is inappropriate for media appearances. Thanks for raising this issue.
11:46 PM, January 22, 2007
ACE,
I knew that this is one point that we can agree on. Thanks for your above post and maybe BBC can improve for the next interview.
piglet,
I have read every single word of that information. Some of it more than once. Will you tell me?
Piglet says to Mom4:
Heardenuf would be far less tense if he would just read the 5 months worth of material on this blog and SavingBellevue.
Response: I've read plenty of "material" including credit card expenses that weren't true, $350-500 shoes on the church that wasn't true, conversations with"sources" that aren't backed up with facts. Please, I feel like I'm reading All The President's Men and Deep Throat won't be revealed for 35 years. I don't have that long!
FOLKS the real ACE is here to disrupt the blog. Ignore him. NEVER EVER RESPOND!!!! OTHERS TO IGNORE: HEARDENUF, 4545, BEPATIENT. They are not looking out for your best interests because they do not want the truth. They know the truth will deal Steve Gaines and his cronies a blow they would not be able to sustain. IGNORE THEM COMPLETELY AND FOREVER!
DEMAND THE TRUTH AND IGNORE THE TROLLS.
Charlie,
NASS/NBCCOF is going to be disappointed in you. She doesn't like it when people post as other people.
Could you please stop now? ha ha, it was funny, now try to act like the man that you are.
Once again I agree with 4545. This is truly a great bunch of Christian bloggers. You lift my spirits each evening when I login.
I love you all.
Would the real Ace please stand up?
Would all of the bloggers who don't respect truth please be more Christian like and be more tolerant of those seeking the truth?
china bull shop said:
If BBC has decided to do it through committees, then it has done so against the warrant of the scripture and begun the way of a reprobate church.
Response: You do realize who said that "the church is Pastor led, deacon served, COMMITTEE OPERATED and congregationally approved" and how long ago he said that? You do know that it wasn't Steve Gaines who started all of the committees at Bellevue?
bepatient said
Quit hiding. We are here, and we are listening. There is no reason you can't still have a meeting or proclaim what you know on a billboard. We can't stop you so I don't know what you have to lose by telling us. It seems like you could only gain more support.
Piglet says:
Apparently these people have not been reading anything posted the last five months. They sit with their fingers in their ears singing "I'm not listening..."
Aslansown
I think the attitude of the trolls tonight shows that they feel threatened.
They should be concerned.
Forgiveandmoveon:
You have my non-clapping yet affirmative support an dagreement.
What about the time Steve Gaines said he didn't jump any fence and then he said.....
Well maybe I did step over a itty bitty fence (pointed at his shin) about this high?
And then the truth picture came out with that man called highstepper standing in front of this horse farm fence about 40something inches high.
Another example of an ever evolving truth for some who just don't want to believe anything is true anymore.
heardenuf said...
china bull shop said:
If BBC has decided to do it through committees, then it has done so against the warrant of the scripture and begun the way of a reprobate church.
Response: You do realize who said that "the church is Pastor led, deacon served, COMMITTEE OPERATED and congregationally approved" and how long ago he said that? You do know that it wasn't Steve Gaines who started all of the committees at Bellevue?
11:56 PM, January 22, 2007
It wasn't until Dr. Rogers passed away that it came to our attention that we have a deep integrity crisis in our leadership. Once we learned we knew something had to be done. You are right though, we should have been concerned with this before Steve got here. Steve created a different set of problems, not those.
1 Peter 3:15 "but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame."
Piglett:
It's not just the attitude of the trolls that has me bothered
AoG
every now and then, you got to let the bull loose, to cut through the bull that's being tossed around
And then what about that time Steve Gaines said "I didn't renegotiate my salary package."
Then some time later, Well maybe I did get a little extra for moving expenses (whatever that is) etc., added to my package for eternity (as long as I'm at Bellevue).
bepatient said
I have read every single word of that information. Some of it more than once. Will you tell me?
Piglet says:
If you consider AAAAALLLL you have read second hand information and not credible, then all that's left for you is a meeting face to face with those involved, wouldn't you agree?
No more rehashing on the blog.
You either heard it or you didn't.
Saying it a few more times won't make a difference.
Piglet,
I am listening and I have been reading. The implications have been that there is "other" information to be revealed. Is this true or not?
concerned said:
As a matter of fact a ten year old would make better decisions than SG has made.
1. A ten year old would be polite to his elders. [ Mr. Kelly.]
Response: I used to have a 10 year old and although he was perfect, many of his 10 year old friends were not.
2. A ten year old would know better than to trespass on private property. [ He can read.]
Response: MMMMMMM, can't say that reading leads to obedience
3. A ten year old would know better than to lie about a dream.[ Moms always knows when a child lies.]
Response: Knowing better does not always lead to the truth. By the way, you know personally that Steve lied, or are you gathering all of your info from the "truth" found on this site?
4. A ten year old would not hide the sin of another person. [ They have been taught the Ten Commandments.] [ And besides they tattle to a person in authority.]
Response: LOL, I wish that were true.
Poor analogy. JMO
What about the time he held the Bellevue credit card up and waved it at us and said "I've never ever used a church credit card for personal use". And then it was found out the it had been used but it was paid back. I guess that doesn't count.
and then there is...
I have to go to bed. To be continued later.
Good night.
Piglet,
I think the attitude of the trolls tonight shows that they feel threatened.
I hate to tell you this, but the "trolls" tonight is one of your own...Mr. Charlie Fox. You should tell him to stop, maybe he'll listen to you.
piglet says:
Saying it a few more times won't make a difference.
Response:
It might. How about saying it "once" about Ted and Craig? Were you able to talk to them?
Since we've all settled down now, I asked this earlier today and noone had a response, so I will ask again for clarity sake. Has anyone considered the "coincidence" of the initiation of a revue of security measures in the children's area this summer and asked who might have originated this?
I do not expect you to rehash anything that has been discussed already. I do not think that all of it is false. I do think sometimes people have projected their own interpretations of what those things mean and that is what frustrates me.
aslansown
It's not just the attitude of the trolls that has me bothered
Piglet says:
How much closer to the truth would we be if this were all left up to you? Easy to hurl accusations when you drop in every few days.
This is not a spectator sport and I'm not too holy to get angry at the forces at work here.
forgiveandmoveon said...
What about the time he held the Bellevue credit card up and waved it at us and said "I've never ever used a church credit card for personal use". And then it was found out the it had been used but it was paid back. I guess that doesn't count.
Response: What was the personal expense? Was it reimbursed with an explanation? What was the explanation? I believe splitting hairs on wording can be very dangerous. Are you claiming to know what Steve meant when he said what he said?
aslansown,
I think Paul Williams could have put the security measures in place so he'd have the key.
bepatient said
I am listening and I have been reading. The implications have been that there is "other" information to be revealed. Is this true or not?
Piglet says:
I'm sure there is stuff even I do not know. Not everything is on the blog,for sure.
heardenuf:
I really am indifferent concerning SG...I am not a member...the statement I was making was in response to a question answered by ace...
but since you mentioned it...SG is just a man...AR was just a man...I dont understand the thinking behind not being able to criticize anyone's decisions because they have passed. If Bellevue was committee run to the point there was not proper congregational oversight, not congregationally run under AR, it was done so without scriptural warrant.
Piglet says:
How much closer to the truth would we be if this were all left up to you? Easy to hurl accusations when you drop in every few days.
Response: Post an accusation please.
This is not a spectator sport and I'm not too holy to get angry at the forces at work here.
Response: You think it doesn't anger those of us who see you claim to have information that would help everyone make a decision on Steve and yet you continue to fail to provide it and then hide behind some meeting that hasn't even been scheduled?
I'm angered too!
Piglett:
I'm not hurling accusations. I am asking for us to try to check the emotions at the door so as to provide a better environment for reason and true discussion. Is this wnot what many have been asking of the leadership? Why not demonstrate here that they have no argument that things will quickly get out of hand and that only fighting will result?
Please don't confuse a paucity of posting for a lack of involvement.
AOG:
Thanks
Heardenuf said
It might. How about saying it "once" about Ted and Craig? Were you able to talk to them?
Piglet says:
Okay. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you missed an earlier post.
You said Craig testified there were no problems witht the credit cards. I was not even referring to credit cards.
My issue was with the salary and salary advances.
I did not see Ted Sunday. Mark Sharpe, whom I DID speak with said it was okay to put Craig's name out there because he is the one who had concerns in this area.
I did not see Ted Sunday but there are some things I DO want to ask him, nevertheless.
The credit card thing was never the issue.
china shop bull said:
I dont understand the thinking behind not being able to criticize anyone's decisions because they have passed. If Bellevue was committee run to the point there was not proper congregational oversight, not congregationally run under AR, it was done so without scriptural warrant.
Responase: Ah, but that's not what you said. I was just trying to make sure you knew what you were saying so that everyone here could get the proper context since you were saying it had "begun the way of a reprobate church." I want people to know that you think Dr. Rogers had started us down the road of the reprobate church.
Here's your quote in case people can't find it:(By the way, I love quotes)
China Shop Bull Said:
"You have no idea what the LORD's church is. His church is not committee run. It is congregationally ran by its members. If BBC has decided to do it through committees, then it has done so against the warrant of the scripture and begun the way of a reprobate church."
Piglet,
May I ask why that information is not available to the general public?
We have talked about rape, sodomy, child molestation, I don't see what else could be off limits.
Piglett:
s to the anger issue, remember that we are told in scripture to "be angry and sin not". It is o.k. to be angry, just be sure that you are angry at the right thing and for the right reason.
In tonight's discussion, how should we apply this precept?
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