Note: The purpose of this forum is for discussion of serious issues in a civil and respectful manner, which most of the people who've come here have maintained, and for that, I truly appreciate all of you and your efforts! However, the past two nights a small group of sheep not only chose to run amok but just about everywhere else sheep shouldn't tread. Let's just say I do not want to ever see a repeat performance of the last two night's sessions. I also do not need advice about which comments I should or should not delete and will not respond to any "encouragement" of that nature. I don't tell anyone else how to moderate any other forum and would appreciate the same courtesy in return. Any post containing the phrase hate-filled or grow up or the word precious, cookie, attack, or similar sentiments or silliness will be subject to deletion. I would also like to ask our serious posters to not respond to these sorts of comments in any way. In other words, don't feed the trolls!
Another note: We've seen this "troll" tactic before, and they've even threatened to change just a letter or two in the screen name to throw people off. So carefully read the screen name before responding. In fact, check the profile. If the name is familiar (or exactly the same but the message sounds out of character) and the profile view number is low, it could be an imposter. I've no doubt "blessne" is someone on the "pro-SG side" who is trying to make "us" look bad. Don't fall into their traps!
To those who are using these tactics, I would ask you, if we're such a small number of "disgruntled" members, then why bother with us? Surely we couldn't pose any threat to anyone.
Let me remind everyone with legitimate concerns to really think about the tone you use and not to throw out unfounded accusations or suppositions not based on fact. If you're angry when you write something, take the time to cool off before you publish it. It'll be much easier to separate the wheat from the chaff if you'll maintain a civil, respectful tone regardless of your opinions.
Now, having gotten those unfortunate but necessary statements out of the way, shall we continue?
I have received a couple of intriguing e-mails in the past week or so from someone with the partial e-mail address of "TLineman33." Unfortunately, this brave soul did not sign his or her name, but I get the impression he or she is not a member of Bellevue. However, I thought I'd share his or her rather interesting thoughts anyway.
The first was apparently forwarded to this mystery person by our own Grandma Billie and contained an attached letter which Mr. Dave Shreve, a Bible Fellowship teacher at Bellevue, sent to Mark Sharpe. In it Mr. Shreve states that he "doubts" he'll see the letter published on Mr. Sharpe's website. Since I'm not aware of Mr. Sharpe having a website, and since Mr. Shreve seems to desire his letter be published on such a site, I thought I'd oblige.
The second document consists of two letters from "Lineman33" which I think speak for themselves. The January 6th letter refers to the letter to Mark Sharpe from above.
Then yesterday at least two posters received this letter from "Will":
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007
From: Wranglerguy8 wranglerguy8@yahoo.com
Subject: Letter from Will
To: xxxxxxxx
I have been reading your posts on the anti-everything blog. You are one sick woman. I would tend to think you need to get some counseling for deliverance from your evil and wicked spirit.
You are a sad excuse for a believer.
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621 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 601 – 621 of 621NBBCOF,
Oops! Looks like "ace" and Mr. Deacon didn't get their talking points straight tonight!
No, we were talking about two seperate things. 4545 was talking about the statement where staff members hate being around Gaines in general. I was talking about the trip. Again - two different things.
Once a church turns luke warm and begins to compromise with the world, very seldom do they turn back. It takes God Himself usually with a man of God, to take a bold stand. An example was when Dr. Rogers stood up against apostacy in the SBC.
Have you noticed how th4 Lord is removing all the strong men of God who have been leaders? And there is no one replacing them. Perhaps He is preparing us for the great apostacy.
There is already a famine of the Word of God.
There have been hundreds and hundreds of Spirit filled believers who have already left Bellevue. I have purposely observed those who have been leaving and they are the real serious believers who are not luke-warm. Those churchs where they have been driven to are blessed.
We have a lot of new comers to Bellevue who have taken their place. They only know what they see there now and have been attracted by the worldliness and entertainment and feel good and instructional sermons. Coffee house atmosphere ...... don't thak things too seriously......... it's all about love, which has been defined as a feeling and feeling good and accepted and fuzzy.
Rod...
When our new pastor took the reigns at my former church, he announced to us in his first sermon that there 'is going to be change'. He said there would be those who wouldn't like this change, but that would be okay. He said we would lose some, but that would be okay...there would be others to take their places.
Now, is this unbiblical or is this unbiblical? What do you do if one sheep goes astray?
Needless to say, this church split. God is longer in that church building. The members there who remained think He is. The church is going to bounce back in growth, numbers. That is what PD churches do...bring in the world and the numbers go up. The money goes up. Everybody has a good time. God isn't there and they don't even know it...
The Body of Christ is no longer there. They left.
Rod, eprov, allofgrace--
Thank you for your explanations. They are right on target!
To EVERYONE who is reading these posts--
Go back and read these things that are happening even as we speak. Ask the Lord to open your understanding of the current situation at our church and follow His leading. HEAR what is being said and SEE how the battle rages between good and evil. Yield to the Spirit within you if you are a Christian.
The Truth and the Light are under attack! You need to get on the right side of the battle. The ONLY side there is is the one that IS JESUS!
Hallelujah!
One may ask why? Why is this so important that this leadership will risk the church at all cost to have their way? Having done a lot of study on this...a tremendous amount of research, the answer I have found is that the motive is to have a church that is elder/pastor led...or led by a board of directors/pastor. In some instances it may be as small a group as the pastor and three others. The church is actually governed by this small group and is done legally. If you will search on Saddleback, you will see that it is owned by these men. It all comes down to greed. To get to this process, the bylaws and constitution must be changed. You need to watch for this. This is why you see such 'hulabaloo' in these churches about the bylaws/constitution. Check it out...don't take my word for any of this. Research Saddleback, Willow Creek...and all these other model churches.
iamresistor--
Thank you for more truth. Power, money, recognition, greed--you can bet are at the bottom of this and it is not of the Lord!
Keep shedding the light on this darkness, Friends. Put it out there until EVERYONE sees.
Go back and read the very last post on the previous "Jacksonville" thread. A saint named Pamelabd has told about what the outcome of these things are.
Friends, it is sad. You do not want this to happen at Bellevue. Well, it is already happening, but, Lord willing, it will be STOPPED!
Ezekiel--
POUR SOME WORD ON THIS BLAZING FIRE!
Day 9: Genesis 25-27
American English translation ("NIV")
King James
Please pray a Great Commission prayer for today's nation of the day: Armenia
There were serious charges posted last evening. Below are snips from the comments in case anyone missed the key elements last night. You can follow the time stamp provided to read the entire posts. I do not understand how anyone can post comments about chocolate, football games etc. when such a serious and sad situation exists. The foundation of Bellevue is crumbling and you want to joke about cookies? I hope all parties would consider the gravity of the situation at Bellevue before spamming the threads with drivel.
The key comment from David Brown at 9:14 PM, January 08, 2007
Bellevue is NOT cooperating with either the DA's office or the DCS investigator, Larry Griffin.
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InformedatBBC said... 6:42 PM, January 08, 2007
Jamie Fish taught Paul Williams' SS class yesterday.
One family asked why there have not been any updates on the PW investigation.
Jamie replied that investigation is such a harsh word, we need to think of it as more of an inquiry. He then went on for the next 30 mins trying to soften things using several scripture references to illustrate his points (I will post those later this evening).
At this point one of the class members asked JF directly if, other than the internal investigation, are there any other outside organizations investigating this like DHS or DCS? The answer was no, this is the only investigation taking place.
The same class member, before the worship service started, asked Mark Daugherty the exact same question about the investigation. His reply was identical - No. Additionally he added "our attorneys have advised us we are doing all we can do."
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David Brown said... 9:14 PM, January 08, 2007
…for the last 3 hours I have been on the phone non-stop.
I can confirm that there are two investigations being done from outside Bellevue. Of the many phone calls I have received tonight, one was from Kevin Rardin, the Asst. D.A. Kevin does read this blog.
The problem is this, and it is going to create an outcry from many. Before you go seeking blood, stop and spend some serious time in prayer. Bellevue is NOT cooperating with either the DA's office or the DCS investigator, Larry Griffin. I have the letter that I received Friday from DCS, Nashville confirming that there is an investigation.
I challenge the leadership of Bellevue to tell the truth and cooperate with the proper authorities. That is not my description of their actions but that of DCS and Kevin Rarin. Why won't they cooperate?
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David Brown said... 11:24 PM, January 08, 2007
What Kevin Rardin [Note: The Assistant District Attorney] told me tonight was they cannot get anyone from Bellevue to cooperate with their inquires. He said that Larry Griffin of DCS has tried but they would not cooperate. Kevin went on to tell me that he has gotten more cooperation from the Catholic Church than he has from Bellevue in similar matters.
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David Brown said... 11:28 PM, January 08, 2007
How bad does it have to be for DCS and the DA to BOTH say they are not cooperating. Or are we going to split hairs over the meaning of the word "is"? Been there done that.
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David Brown said... 11:52 PM, January 08, 2007
Tomorrow morning the letter I received from DCS will be posted here for all to copy. Take that to those that told you there was no investigation. Ask them why they said there was no investigation.
Then contact the DA to confirm they are not cooperating and then ask the leadership why they aren't.
Form your own opinions after taking those two steps. I intend to that myself. Let's compare notes tomorrow night.
I was asked to post this.
At the Altar with Jesus and Carter wrote:
Truthsleuth said...
fedupatbbc said...
At the prayer at SG gave after the alter call, I noticed that he motioned for Carter Threkeld to come forward to the altar. He summoned him and pointed at the altar.
I was sitting very close to the front, so I saw the entire thing unfold.
In his prayer, he prayed for those " at the altar"..Carter Threkheld did as he was TOLD and knelt down at the altar.
My point is, there would not have been anyone at the altar had SG not commanded Carter to kneel...
It was staged...I watched it unfold before my very eyes. Did anyone else notice this?
3:45 PM, January 07, 2007
From the balcony, we could see that SG motioned to Carter that a person was on his face at the altar and to pray with him. I believe the handling of the end of the service was out of respect for the prayer that was going on. It was sensible and compassionate. SG doesn't do everything wrong.
Thruthsleuth,
Thank you for providing your comments on the 9:30 service. Can you imagine my shock and surprise when I found out late this afternoon that my private prayer at the altar was now the subject of discussion on the blog? Unfortunately I did not have time then to respond as we were headed back to worship this evening. Though I am getting familiar with the new technology of blogging, it remains new to me.
Brothers and sisters, I did not "stage" anything. The Lord has called me on numerous occasions to the altar to pray, particularly in the midst of our current trials. In fact, I was already at the altar in prayer this morning before Carter joined me there. I did not have any prior conversation or discussion with our pastor or anyone else (except my wife) before I left my seat to go forward.
Truth be told, I have personally written to our Pastor to express my serious concerns regarding his apparent inaction with respect to Mr. Williams. I would suggest all to read 1 Timothy 5: 20-21 where the Holy Spirit of God inspired Paul to write out clear instructions for egregious ministerial sin. These instructions are to be kept without partiality and we are further instructed to do nothing out of favoritism.
I do thank our Pastor for the courtesy he extended to me as I prayed at the altar this morning. Among the many things I prayed for this morning were the following:
a. Reconciliation in our church. We must put aside the partisan nature of so much of this discourse. As I wrote to well respected deacon: this is our problem, our church, our pastor, and our witness to the world. Whatever courses of action our deacon body, our pastor, and our church staff select, we must trust the Holy Spirit to heal the breaches. I implore each of you to seek the truth but to do so in such a manner so as to avoid a party spirit (we/they).
b. That righteousness would be exalted in our church because sin is a reproach to any people. We need truth in the innermost parts, from the individual church member through all portions of our church leadership.
c. That God would bless our pastor and his family and that God would work out His will in Pastor Gaines life. Whether he stays or goes, he is our brother in the Lord and like the rest of us, is in need of God¢s sustaining power.
ATAWJAC
Note from NBBCOF: ATAWJAC stated that he had talked with "fedup" and that he had "accepted her apology for jumping to unwarranted conclusions." He also stated that he was not hurt by what transpired here but just wanted to clarify what really happened. I hope that we can all learn a lesson from this unfortunate episode to not draw definite conclusions about things if we're not sure of the facts. We can make observations, but let's not make too many assumptions without seeking out the facts of the situation.
NBBCOF
2006Huldah said...
"Go back and read the very last post on the previous "Jacksonville" thread. A saint named Pamelabd has told about what the outcome of these things are."
Huldah...can you point this out? I'd love to read it, but can't find it. Maybe if you could give the location...or perhaps even copy and paste it here?
If my memory serves me correctly, the Jxville church is PD...Mac Brunson in Dallas was. Don't know why he'd change. Think Vines is too. Johnny Hunt. There are certainly more out there who are, than who are not. I think the Jxville group will embrace Steve Gaines at their convention.
This all reminds me of the movie, "The Invasion of the Body Snatchers"...ever see that? The seducing spirits...
It is frightening. But then, we are talking about satan.
binwonderin,
I think if you take all posts on the whole you'd agree that no one takes any of this lightly. At times, in an effort to make some kind of connection with people on both sides of these issues, something as silly as cookies or chocolate may be the one common ground in which to attempt to dialog. Also, considering the weight, and the sheer number of issues before us, as finite human beings, we do need to give our minds and hearts a break from time to time to break the constant tension. I think if you look at the history of my postings I'm anything but lighthearted in how I see these weighty matters. I'm sorry that my mentioning something as lightweight as chocolate or cookies offended you, but I'm not sorry for taking that break...I don't desire to be consumed to the point of bitterness.
ATTENTION!
THE BLOGGER SITE IS SUPPOSED TO BE DOWN FROM 9:45 UNTIL 11:45 THIS MORNING FOR ROUTINE MAINTENANCE. A NEW THREAD (LONG OVERDUE) WILL BE STARTED AFTER THAT DOWNTIME.
Thanks,
NBBCOF
Okay, AOG. You make a good point. You can talk about cookies for a while. And you can talk about chocolate any time! Or doughnuts... mmmm!
NBBCOF
Bin WOnderin,
My comment about football was actually more of a post on Pastor Rogers and his love of those very same Gators.
As it has been stated before, rarely do you see a pastor called to a smaller church with a lower salary? I'm not blanketing all pastors in this category. Most pastors ARE serving all across this nation and the world in small churches with very small salaries. Being called to pastor is always going to be sacrificial. Serving Christ requires a sacrificial spirit regardless of position. It's also important to state that all pastors at large churches do not fit into what I am speaking of.
Transparent churches regardless of size have nothing to hide. The churches that operate in secrecy are the ones that are probably fleecing their sheep.
Things to look for:
* Does the pastor insulate himself with a handful of men?
* Does the pastor create a mindset that it's better for the church congregation to not know what the pastor and staff is making?
* Do the same men or families fill the lay positions over and over as if they own the position or deserve it?
* Does the pastor have an attitude that he answers to nobody?
* Are tithes able to be spent without the knowledge of the congregation?
* Are by-laws not followed?
* Are members who question anything told to drop it or get lost?
* Is the pastor involved in financial gain?
* Are higher numbers in membership or giving used as a reason to justify wrongful actions?
* Does a church not have open business meetings for the membership to know what's going on?
* Do you have a small number of people inside the church spending tithes as if it's their money and not God's?
These are a few signs that are prevalent all over the Southern Baptist Convention.
This philosophy is straight from Warrenism. It's dangerous and it's destroying the church.
bin wonderin--
I agree with ALL you said--100%.
imaresistor--
I have asked NASS to help me out on your request. I do not know how to cut and paste from a previous thread. I NEED to know, but I don't. If you look at the choices of threads, it is the most recent thread whose title begins "Jacksonville, FL...", and it is the very last post, dated Jan. 7 by pameladb. She was a Bartlett Baptist member.
Dee
imaresistor--
Oh, yes. I forgot to mention that I, too, had used the movie "The Invasion of the Body Snatchers" in the past in reference to this BBC situation; but it wasn't on a blog. It was in a private message to a Bellevue deacon.
Dee
The late Pastor Rogers, does not sound always to caring to me. In one sermon maybe even more than one time he said it. Some people leave the church and you never know that they are gone. That sound like to me saying and who in all of BBC cares that some people leave.
Someone please tell me why I can not delete my posts? Thanks in advance.
Oops!
The "Jacksonville, FL..." thread post by pamelabd was on January 6 not 7.
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