Note: The purpose of this forum is for discussion of serious issues in a civil and respectful manner, which most of the people who've come here have maintained, and for that, I truly appreciate all of you and your efforts! However, the past two nights a small group of sheep not only chose to run amok but just about everywhere else sheep shouldn't tread. Let's just say I do not want to ever see a repeat performance of the last two night's sessions. I also do not need advice about which comments I should or should not delete and will not respond to any "encouragement" of that nature. I don't tell anyone else how to moderate any other forum and would appreciate the same courtesy in return. Any post containing the phrase hate-filled or grow up or the word precious, cookie, attack, or similar sentiments or silliness will be subject to deletion. I would also like to ask our serious posters to not respond to these sorts of comments in any way. In other words, don't feed the trolls!
Another note: We've seen this "troll" tactic before, and they've even threatened to change just a letter or two in the screen name to throw people off. So carefully read the screen name before responding. In fact, check the profile. If the name is familiar (or exactly the same but the message sounds out of character) and the profile view number is low, it could be an imposter. I've no doubt "blessne" is someone on the "pro-SG side" who is trying to make "us" look bad. Don't fall into their traps!
To those who are using these tactics, I would ask you, if we're such a small number of "disgruntled" members, then why bother with us? Surely we couldn't pose any threat to anyone.
Let me remind everyone with legitimate concerns to really think about the tone you use and not to throw out unfounded accusations or suppositions not based on fact. If you're angry when you write something, take the time to cool off before you publish it. It'll be much easier to separate the wheat from the chaff if you'll maintain a civil, respectful tone regardless of your opinions.
Now, having gotten those unfortunate but necessary statements out of the way, shall we continue?
I have received a couple of intriguing e-mails in the past week or so from someone with the partial e-mail address of "TLineman33." Unfortunately, this brave soul did not sign his or her name, but I get the impression he or she is not a member of Bellevue. However, I thought I'd share his or her rather interesting thoughts anyway.
The first was apparently forwarded to this mystery person by our own Grandma Billie and contained an attached letter which Mr. Dave Shreve, a Bible Fellowship teacher at Bellevue, sent to Mark Sharpe. In it Mr. Shreve states that he "doubts" he'll see the letter published on Mr. Sharpe's website. Since I'm not aware of Mr. Sharpe having a website, and since Mr. Shreve seems to desire his letter be published on such a site, I thought I'd oblige.
The second document consists of two letters from "Lineman33" which I think speak for themselves. The January 6th letter refers to the letter to Mark Sharpe from above.
Then yesterday at least two posters received this letter from "Will":
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007
From: Wranglerguy8 wranglerguy8@yahoo.com
Subject: Letter from Will
To: xxxxxxxx
I have been reading your posts on the anti-everything blog. You are one sick woman. I would tend to think you need to get some counseling for deliverance from your evil and wicked spirit.
You are a sad excuse for a believer.
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621 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 600 of 621 Newer› Newest»a dumb question.....if trolls switch and confuse, how do we know who a troll is? (I'm new at this!)
:)
Please be very careful about emailing strangers if you have a static i.p. address (or if you don't know how to tell). Your computer can be hacked via that i.p. that appears in the email if it is the same 24x7.
justmy opinion, I believe that the mean spiritness comes from several areas.
One is the frustration people feel that others do not feel as strongly as they do when it is clear to them.
Two , I think alot of it is the way we read some of the posts, yes many of us have at one time been in a defensive mindset when on this blog.
Three, I think it is very hard to convey tone on a blog vs. actually speaking, what may sound fair and logical to me, comes off as ignorant and argumentative to others.
and Four, I think there are some on here that like to go at it with certain people.
Mike,
I'm not sure whether or not you can answer this or not, but do you know how are they going to announce the results of the internal investigation? Will it be after services or will a statement be issued? (Just curious).
JMO
I just got on a minutes ago but I keep up with all the posts and I didn't see that one BUT I did read the warnings to us that a blogger called blessNewiththetruth was posting so that we would confuse him/her with blessMewiththetruth.
Now, I'm relatively new to this blogging business but I hear this is a technique used to destroy someone's credibility.
I'm don't think that was a genuine post and I think it got deleted.
JMO
See 2:40 post by NBBCOF
Mofocrates said...
I'm just a backsliding buddhist, so you may well dismiss my opinion, yet I am interested in your plight, being [...] a recovering Southern Baptist [...].
My family and many friends are Southern Baptists and Bellevue members; [...]
...said by Mofocrates.
By dear prodigal brother Mofocrates,
Jesus loves you and has not forgotten the hour you gave yourself to him. Your sins remain forgiven.
I welcome you to this board as my brother in Christ in equal standing. I welcome you to fellowship.
I look forward to sharing eternity with you becaue of the blood Jesus shed at calvary.
Remember: God does not break his promise. He has asked you to believe him and you have done it.
That is the power of God's promise.
It is more powerful than your doubt.
Think of it. Salvation is something that can not be bought with money or effort. It can only be recieved as a gift. An undeserved gift.
Once holding that gift, why would God take it away after saying you don't deserve it?
None of us deserve it.
All of us have doubts.
All of us are forgiven if we have believed in the name Jesus Christ.
You have done so (correct me if I am wrong).
And you have stopped believing after the fact of your eternal salvation.
Brother, cheer up! God has not forgotten what his son did for you!
Amen!
graceupongrace said...
"...It's not always a sin to break man's law. It's always a sin to DISOBEY the law, but if you don't know the law to begin with, you're not intentionally breaking it. There is also a distinction between negligence and ignorance. Negligence would be wrong."
Ignorance of the law is never a legal defense against breaking the law. The same is fundamentally true if you look at breaking God's law...
"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)" Rom 2:12-15
We have a moral and legal obligation to know the rules and follow them. Failure to do so is both a sin and a crime.
jmo,
You're welcome to repost your comments without the "cut and paste" from the comment to which you were responding. That information does not need to be repeated anywhere.
Thanks,
NBBCOF
NBBCOF, I would like my post 2:18 and 2:38 post also deleted. SInce it has been discovered that person was using a bogus name, and since I did copy and paste some of the quote in my reply.
I do not have the trashcan option on any of my posts either. Thanks
Imaresistor,
In reference to your 2:02 post, anyone who knows me and has been reading my posts from the beginning knows I am not bashful about calling a spade a spade. For months I’ve been one of the louder voices calling for the truth. However, I believe there is a right and a wrong way to go about engaging in this enterprise. There is no reason for this to ever be personal, as tempting as that is. I am concerned with principles, not personalities. As I said before we can disagree without being disagreeable.
A man can be right and justified in his position, yet loses his integrity by employing hyperbolic language when taking his stand. He can lose his integrity by bringing personal matters into the debate. A man who stands on biblical principles rarely wins the popularity contest, but he is on the side of the Lord. That should be enough.
If there is a lie, it should be exposed. If there is corruption, it should be exposed. A man does not lose his integrity for telling an unpopular truth. He loses his integrity for keeping quiet when knows the truth is not being told. He loses his integrity for standing on a lie with the masses for fear of losing his position and influence. My complaint is not with those telling the truth. That was not the point of my post. My post addressed the manner in which we conduct ourselves while standing for truth.
truthsleuth,
The verses you quoted are some of my favorite in Scripture, coming from Romans. However they say nothing about man's law.
Let's say the TN legislature passes a law saying you can't wear black shirts on January. This is man's law and it is not written on man's heart, as God's law says. Now, if I were to wear a black shirt in January and I knew about the law, it would be a sin. But if I really did not know about the law, it would not be a sin.
Now, there is no such thing as ignorance before God. The Bible says (in Romans 1) that man knows God exists but suppresses this truth and substitutes it with atheism, etc. Don't misunderstand me. No one will be able to plead ignorance on the day of judgment.
But that is not what we are debating. It is whether breaking man's law is always a sin, and to that I give a resounding no. I am speaking from a long tradition here. Read some books or articles about the "spirit of the law."
Memphisand JMO
I understand the anger of those just joining the frey who have been hearing there is a viscious group of bloggers trying to destroy the church. If this were true, I would also be outraged.
We were told for months that a bunch of people who hated the new music were conspiring to get rid of the pastor. The name Mark Sharpe kept coming up as being the ringleader.
After weeks and weeks of this, we investigated on our own(we'd known Mark in the past and found it hard to believe).
We found that concerned staff had sought Mark's help in exposing Gaines inflated salary and misuse of Bellevue accounts, among other things. Per Matt. 18,he met first with the pastor who brushed him off. He then sought to address the deacon body and was stripped of his deacon title. He was denied any recourse of addressing the church body so Jim Haywood placed an interview of Mark Sharpe with Josh Manning ( a close friend to the Rogers family)on the Saving Bellevue website in order to address the church body.
The people who have known this since May of 2006 are leaving or are trying desperately to alert the body that there are abuses occurring in our leadership under and including Steve Gaines.
The membership that is aware of these issues and others want them settled(not ignored) but instead are told to shut up and go away.
The emotions run high on either side. Both sides feel Bellevue is being destroyed by the other.
But there is information that was never addressed because Gaines refused to let all parties meet to settle the issues,I think, for obvious reasons.
The vast majority of the membership is not aware of these issues because those that know are being silenced or run off.
I agree with graceupongrace on the legal issue.
Knowingly breaking the law is a sin. (unless that law goes against God's law)
Breaking a law you have no knowledge of is not a sin, although legally you may still have consequences to pay.
be patient
Dr. Gaines has been a pastor for 20+ years. He has pastored a large church and,now, a mega church.
He should be well aware of these things.
JMHO
Unfortunately, Dr. Rogers daughter and her husband have even started attending GBC. This speaks volumes.
BePatient, a pm you should read.
piglet- Who cares? That speaks nothing to me.
I am just speaking in general terms...
Not trying to imply I know what happened one way or the other in this situation. I prefer to wait for all the information. I am not a lawyer or in law enforcement. I trust them to do their jobs.
I should have clarified my thoughts further. It was a mistake of my mind not my heart (sorry mem- couldn't resist!)
4545
I don't doubt there will be those who see and don't care.
I am praying there will be more who will see and will care.
It's not convenient and it's not pleasant but it's the nature of the spiritual battle we are in.
Got to be somewhere in thiry minutes. God bless. :)
bepatient and graceupongrace,
My point here is that we have a civic, and by extension, a moral obligation to know the law and obey it. The scripture from Romans emphasizes that God doesn't consider not knowing to be an excuse, and the state likewise does not consider ignorance of the law an excuse. I contend that failing to fulfill the requirement to know a law and then breaking it is indeed a sin, for we have failed to "...render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's." It is hard for me to see how God would fail to hold a man accountable for breaking a law when the state holds him accountable, just because he didn't know the law, and would have held him accountable if he had known.
It's like,
State: "You broke the law."
Man: "But I didn't know it was wrong."
State: "Nevertheless, you're guilty."
God: "You're sure you didn't know?"
Man: "Well yeah..."
God: "Then it's not a sin...but you should have known...and if you HAD, it WOULD be a sin."
(God, of course, knows the whole story all the time...)
The above scenario doesn't ring true. Right is right and wrong is wrong. The law is a just law and it's just as much of a sin to be negligent in such a situation as it is to be willfully wrong.
This is probably getting close to being off topic, but I am very much enjoying the opportunity to discourse with you all in a highly civil manner... ;-)
TS
graceupongrace,
What is your opinion of the books that are not included in the KJV of the Bible (Tobit, Judith, I&II Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch)?
Also curious if you have heard of, seen or read anything of the Lost Gosepel of Judas?
Koragg said...
Mike,
I'm not sure whether or not you can answer this or not, but do you know how are they going to announce the results of the internal investigation? Will it be after services or will a statement be issued? (Just curious).
At this point, I'm not sure whether I can answer it or not either, but hopefully I'll have definitive information soon.
--Mike
Ok, Thank-you all for the info. about Bill.
David,
What's there to be stunned about? I didn't say anything ugly or disrespectful.
Tim,
I can't delete posts on this forum. I don't have a trash can. Nonetheless, I still don't see how my response stunned anyone. It was sent out of love and nothing more.
If it makes anyone feel better about the issue, he's not even in Iraq. I looked it up and he's someplace else....and I'll leave it at that.
Tim,
No info really needs to be removed since it is partially incorrect. He is not in Iraq. He is serving as a missionary elsewhere. I posted the location earlier but NASS already deleted it (thanks).
AllOfGrace,
Yes, they are, sorry.... just a warning, if you read the main topic of this thread, NBBCOF says we can't talk about cookies anymore otherwise our posts will be deleted.
That's such a shame because cookies are good! :)
ace,
bummer...i'm kinda fond of em myself. Is chocolate off limits?...i'm a chocoholic.
I don't know. I guess we'll have to wait for our fearless leader to get here to see if talking about chocolate is off limits too.
well..along those lines...if anybody likes chocolate and ice cream...i've had some chocolate moose tracks ice cream this week that'll make your taste buds beat your brains out...no kidding.
Ace
Do you play the saxophone? :)
Piglet,
Do you play the saxophone? :)
Nope...but I'm willing to bet if you gave me one and an hour to work with it, I could figure out how to play a song for you. ;)
I'm a jazz fan so I enjoy a good saxophone.
I seems that not only has SG made some serious mistakes but so has the administration closest to him. Example: When the four men went to "reconcile" with Mark Sharpe, someone should have had the backbone or wisdom to say " Hey, we shouldn't do that"
It has gone down hill from there. I don't think SG knows what the truth is anymore. Example: 1)Early on he told the Ministers that if they did not tithe they would be asked to catch up and he would be checking. If that did not work they would be dismissed. 2) In the Communication Committee meeting with the staff someone pointed out that a Pastor should never know what anyone tithes. SG quickly pivoted in his seat and replied " I never said that" 3) A few weeks later in another meeting the staff was told by SG that he was gung-ho about the tithing policy because they did it that way at Gardendale but, he now realized that it won't work here.
I wonder, which is it. Did he not say that or did he realize it won't work here. Only one can be true.
Dr. Al Mohler is out of intensive care and is in good spirits. He seems to be recovering nicely.
Ijustwantthetruth,
I watched a tape of a sermon that Dr. Rogers gave last nite. It was at the old building and Tommy Lane was the minister of music so I would put it back about 20 yrs.
The sermon was on when a Christian sins. I don't recall the title but it was from I John 5, I believe.
Three If's...If we say we have not sinned...
The progression.
First we lie.
Then we lie to ourselves and believeit.
Then we lie to God.
The solution.
Expose Sin to the Light.
Express Sin to the Lord.
Expel Sin from our Life.
Perhaps that might shed some light on the issues. My chin hit the floor as I listened.
Jamie Fish taught Paul Williams' SS class yesterday. Here is a synopsis of the dialogue between members of the class and Jamie.
One family asked why there have not been any updates on the PW investigation.
Jamie replied that investigation is such a harsh word, we need to think of it as more of an inquiry. He then went on for the next 30 mins trying to soften things using several scripture references to illustrate his points (I will post those later this evening).
At this point one of the class members asked JF directly if, other than the internal investigation, are there any other outside organizations investigating this like DHS or DCS? The answer was no, this is the only investigation taking place.
JF continued with the statement that there are many secular psychologists and psychiatrists that believe a pedophile cannot be rehabilitated. However, a Christian counselor may have a different viewpoint.
He then said that if it be the will of God, the staff and the Pastor, a person like PW could be brought back into a ministry position.
The same class member,before the worship service started, asked Mark Daugherty the exact same question about the investigation. His reply was identical - No. Additionally he added "our attorneys have advised us we are doing all we can do."
There you have it folks- We may see PW back on staff.
Bible-in-a-year (and others),
I've changed my name to appease the moderator and to not be so blue on this thread. Thank you for welcoming an outsider and someone on a different path.
As to my salvation, I appreciate your compassion and kind words; however, I am here as a concerned citizen, family member and friend. I'm well aware of Christian doctrine and the emphasis on Christ. I urge you to embrace your faith in this time of turmoil, come what may.
The path I follow suits me fine.
David
It's also in conflict with what was reported in the news.
informedatbbc
I believe David Brown would take issue with what you were being told in you class.
David, you out there?
informedatbbc
I thought Paul quit teaching 6 months ago....
informed said, He then said that if it be the will of God, the staff and the Pastor, a person like PW could be brought back into a ministry position.
Hasn't God already made His will clear in the New Testament? He set out clear standards for those in the ministry. Do the staff and the pastor expect God to change His mind?
We shouldn't be surprised to see PW back on staff. Brother Steve has a history of allowing those with "moral failures" to serve on his staff.
proverbs 12:22
Unless, of course, they commit the "moral failure" of asking questions or disagreeing.
In his eyes Mark Sharpe is more of a risk than PW.
Piglet,
Of course you are right. Asking questions is an abominable sin. Failure to tithe falls in the same category.
ijustwantthetruth said- It has gone down hill from there. I don't think SG knows what the truth is anymore. Example: 1)Early on he told the Ministers that if they did not tithe they would be asked to catch up and he would be checking. If that did not work they would be dismissed. 2) In the Communication Committee meeting with the staff someone pointed out that a Pastor should never know what anyone tithes. SG quickly pivoted in his seat and replied " I never said that" 3) A few weeks later in another meeting the staff was told by SG that he was gung-ho about the tithing policy because they did it that way at Gardendale but, he now realized that it won't work here.
REPLY- HERE in lies the problem. The 3 things you posted do not even mean the same thing. It has been said that they would check to make sure that the ministers did tithe, but never WHAT they tithed. That is 2 different things. If we had ministers not tithing at all before Dr. Gaines got here, that is sad and we have some serious issues.
Trollcates said...
Bible-in-a-year (and others),
I've changed my name to appease the moderator and to not be so blue on this thread. Thank you for welcoming an outsider and someone on a different path.
As to my salvation, I appreciate your compassion and kind words; however, I am here as a concerned citizen, family member and friend. I'm well aware of Christian doctrine and the emphasis on Christ. I urge you to embrace your faith in this time of turmoil, come what may.
The path I follow suits me fine.
David
6:46 PM, January 08, 2007
Thank you for replying to me.
And thank you for telling me to embrace my faith. My faith is set out clearly in the 66 books of the Bible.
I assure you, either:
1) your name is still in the Lamb's book of life
or
2) it was never in the Book of Life.
Let's not talk about this for a while.
I won't bother you. Just remember what I have just told you.
When you want to know more I'm not hard to find.
Bible-in-a-year.
(offline)
4545,
You seem to be fairly certain of that. Have you attended these meeting or is it something that you had heard?
4545
God also says He loves a cheerful giver. Checking tithes is legalistic.
Of course this is about money and money seems to have been a major concern since he arrived.
Imagine how far that $100,00.00? excess he is being paid would go to help ministries.
Of course, he needed a raise for "living expenses"...give me a break, what is he spending all that on and why on earth did he need all those advances on his pay.
Is he still paying off the debt he left at Gardendale?
David Brown,
InformedAtBBC has made a very interesting post. Is this SS teacher just plain flat out lying to his class about there being no other investigations? Are you still 100% positive that an investigation is still ongoing?
I do mean external investigation btw.
piglet said...
"Is he still paying off the debt he left at Gardendale?"
I think BBC probably paid that off as part of his hiring package, unbeknownst to the membership of BBC of course.
However, he still owes WJX for his doctorate after he took the money out of the daycare funds to pay for it. - True story - after he got caught, he had his henchmen bring it to the church as a proposal and they approved it after the fact. The money was already gone by then, but the congregation did not know that.
I beleive investigation was the official word from Bellevue Baptist Church. I hope "inquiry" wasn't used to protect PW.
If the church staff is not cooperating with the law enforcement officials without charges being brought, I don't think there is much the DA can do unless the victim were to talk to the Da.
Steve Gaines did admit to a moral failure by Paul Williams several weeks ago. If Steve Gaines was being honest and it was a moral failure between a father and son, then how in the world could a church keep someone on staff as a minister who admitted to this?
Am I missing something here? What would be the difference between Paul Williams having an affair with a woman in the church and Paul Williams forcing himself on his son? This is sick!
Jamie Fish, you are a good man. Be careful not to ruin your integrity over this issue. Steve Gaines nor anyone else is worth it. Walk away from your job before you ever do anything like this.
Dear Brothers and Sisters: I came home tonight hoping to get some time away from the computer and watch the BCS bowl game but for the last 3 hours I have been on the phone non-stop.
Well I can confirm that there are two investigations being done from outside Bellevue. Of the many phone calls I have received tonight, one was from Kevin Rardin, the Asst. D.A. I was on the phone with him a very long time. Kevin does read this blog.
The problem is this, and it is going to create an outcry from many. Before you go seeking blood, stop and spend some serious time in prayer. Bellevue is NOT cooperating with either the DA's office or the DCS investigator, Larry Griffin. I have the letter that I received Friday from DCS, Nashville confirming that there is an investigation.
Some have asked if Jaime is a liar. I can't speak about that as I was not there to hear what he was asked or what he said in response but if he said there was no investigation I will say very STORNGLY he is wrong. I am more than willing to scan and post the letter I have from DCS. That should settle the issue of whether there is an investigation. I am not about to get into "word" games with the leadership of Bellevue. THERE IS AN OFFICIAL INVESTIGATION!
I challenge the leadership of Bellevue to tell the truth and cooperate with the proper authorities. That is not my description of their actions but that of DCS and Kevin Rarin. Why won't they cooperate?
I am getting off line and get on my knees. I am deeply troubled that my long time former home church will not be truthful and transparent. Will you not join me?
swwt said....
"Jamie Fish, you are a good man. Be careful not to ruin your integrity over this issue. Steve Gaines nor anyone else is worth it. Walk away from your job before you ever do anything like this."
I agree totally, Jamie has always kept himself above reproach. He may be telling what he has been told and does not know anything different. One needs to wonder if nothing happened between PW and his Son, why did PW not tell Joyce Rogers that it was a lie when she called him, that was a perfect opportunity to set the record straight!
Reply to Mr. Bratton:
Bratton: Mr. Williams has confessed to committing a crime, and is being dealt with.
Lindon: Confessed? To whom? To his sheep? Or to the pastor only? How is he being 'dealt' with? According to 1 Corinthians? Or according to BBC's attorney's?
(By the way, Confession means 'to speak the same'. Confession does not mean repentence.)
Bratton: "And since "harboring" has a specific legal definition, I'd suggest you hold off using it until the investigations are complete."
Lindon: Why? Is there something the congregation does not know? And if so, why? Did the pastor know he was a pedophile for 6 months and during that 6 months was PW on staff? During that 6 months was the congregation told?
Bratton: "I try not to rank sins, since we are informed by Scripture that God does not do so. However, I would suggest that the repercussions of bitterness are, in their own way, as debilitating as the repercussions of sexual abuse."
Mr. Bratton, you seem like an intelligent man. Can you honestly tell me that the leadership's tactics in all of this being referred to as 'Gestapo-ish' is as bad as sodomizing a child? Did God level Sodom and Gommorah for bitterness?
When people start using the 'rating' sin excuse, I know we have even more serious problems. Don't fall for it folks. I have not witnessed bitterness at all on this site from those who are very concerned about this scandal. I have witnessed passion, concern and frustration which all are warranted considering the unbiblical way the leadership has handled not only this, but dissenters and questioners.
Bratton: "And I still await, and lobby for, a business meeting."
Lindon: Are you sure you are really 'lobbying' for a business meeting or waiting to see which side of the fence to sit on? You may think that is a low blow but facts are facts. There is a right and wrong here...scripturally.
This situation does not call for an 'internal' investigation. That is absurd considering the worldly, unscriptural way it has been handled.
BBC would be better off calling in some old country preacher who has been on his knees for 50 years to guide you back to the Word of God.
4545-HERE in lies the problem. The 3 things you posted do not even mean the same thing.
I believe you misunderstood my post. I am not debating if a Minister should tithe or not. We all should tithe. God tells us to give in secret not in front of men that it is seen. My tithe is between me and God. Not me, SG and God.
My post deals with 3 different incidents that deal with tithes. I will try again.
1) SG told the Ministers that "he would check their ththe".
2) A staff member, in a staff meeting, told the Communication Committee (2 members), that a Pastor should not know what people(individualy) tithe. SG pivoted in his chair and said "I never said that"
3) In a later staff meeting SG announced that he was gung-ho about checking tithes because that was the way they did it at GD and I realize it won't work here.
The issue I bring is, He cannot say "I never said that" and then later say "Thats the way we did it..."
Herein lies the problem, They mutual exclude each other as the truth.
David Brown,
Thank you for your post. I too, am crying out to the Lord tonight as I have for a long time now for Truth to be preeminent at Bellevue once again.
I pray for our staff that they will stand for truth in the face of lies. God will honor that stand and God's people will surround you and support you. A ministry without integrity is really not a ministry at all. God is in control, not man.
We need to pray fervently for our staff tonight. I feel like they are really under attack. I understand that today, Steve Gaines took the staff down to Oxford, MS to spend the night and have a retreat. I know there are a lot of men down there this evening that do not agree with Steve Gaines.
I love you all.
david s
I think that is precisely what Craig Parker in finance had in mind when he brought the pastor's salary to Mark's attention.
When did Steve Gaines schedule a retreat to Oxford, MS? Was this something that had been planned a while back?
ezekiel,
Well, I do know one thing. It means that it cost the church about $2,000 per sermon.
I'm very concerned that Jamie Fish and Mark Dougherty both claimed that there is no investigation outside of Bellevue...I would think that both of them would be aware of that fact..the local news reported that DCS is investigating...why would these men say that?
allofgrace,
Integrity. Once it has been compromised it is lost. Once it is lost it can never be regained to 100% of what it was.
new bbc open forum wrote: "We've seen it before, and they even threatened to change just a letter or two in the screen name to throw people off. So carefully read the screen name before responding. In fact, check the profile. If the name is familiar (or exactly the same but the message sounds out of character) and the profile view number is low, it could be an imposter. I've no doubt "blessne" is someone on the "pro-SG side" who is trying to make "us" look bad. Don't fall into their traps!
Let me remind everyone with legitimate concerns to really think about the tone you use and not to throw out unfounded accusations or suppositions not based on fact. If you're angry when you write something, take the time to cool off before you publish it. It'll be much easier to separate the wheat from the chaff that way if you'll maintain a civil, respectful tone regardless of your opinions."
Just curious...but would one have to be prejudice to assume that a pro-Gaines supporter would be the one to be an imposter? We could play this game all day...I knew that you knew that he knew that you knew..
I am neither pro or con, just someone who loves my church and doesn't want to see a major division. I only ask as I am sure you do that people be accountable to their words. As we've learned from childhood...words hurt more than sticks and stones regardless of the old saying.
tim,
I just sent you another email.
Checking to see who tithes and WHAT they tithe is 2 different things.
Mark Dougherty is one thing. His integrity was spent long ago by Steve Gaines.
Jamie Fish has been caught in a double-bind. He feels doomed if he does what is right more than if he holds on and tries to cover it up.
Be sure your sin will FIND YOU out.
imaresistor wrote: "The leadership will tell a lie for the sole purpose of knowing that if you repeat it, nobody is going to believe you, but will believe the leadership."
That was not the problem at my former mega. The problem was the the senior pastor 'believed' lies. Not only in doctrine but from senior staff. He was very insulated. When he was confronted with the lies (with proof) even from an elder he did nothing because unity and relationships were more important to him than truth. My thoughts were of the people on staff who were acting like pagans who may not be saved because of his cowardice. (I am being nice here...He did not want the bad publicity because he was retiring and the newspapers were watching us like hawks... so things got swept under the carpet..lots of bad things.)
Beware folks of being concerned what the 'world' thinks. Truth is more important than image. And, you cannot ruin your 'witness' by admitting ugly truths. If you are hiding ugly truths you have no witness. God does not need us, folks. We are to be obedient to His Word.
Imaresistor: "This is done for sole intent of wrecking havoc on your credibility. How do you handle finding out about these types of ugly truths with dignity? And how would you handle a counter attack that turns the tables on you and names you as the liar? Please understand I am asking these things of you in earnest...with the utmose sincerity."
You go to the elders with 2 witnesses. If nothing comes of that or they turn on you... you say, "Ichabod" and leave. Because God is not there. (My experience with this in large churches is that many elders are chosen for their worldly titles and not their 'holiness' so they tend to handle things 'strategically' as they would in business. Our churches are wallowing in worldliness with biblicaly illiterate elders. It is shameful.)
imaresistor: "As a victim of this insideous PD movement myself, I totally understand how it feels to be standing alone and knowing nobody believes you. It is a lonesome place to be."
You are not alone. Jesus Christ is standing with you. Jesus Christ is sifting. He sifted you. But He is allowing the wheat to grow with the tares until judgement day. It is heartbreaking to know this and see it. On that day, He will take the tares and throw them in the burning fire. (See Matthew)
Get on your knees and Praise Him that He showed you this.. Praise Him that you are no longer following men but HIM. Think of this as the greatest thing that has ever happened to you because HE wants you as HIS. Beg Him to save the tares!
I can literally feel your passion on this subject. It is the most hurtful thing in the world because the church is your spiritual family. But is it? NO. The Body of Christ is your spiritual family. And there is a difference. There is ONLY unity in the Body of Christ in the truth of scripture.
Magnify His Holy Name.
4545,
What makes you so sure of what was said? Where you there or did you just hear about it from your brothers in laws, cousins, aunt twice removed?
swtt said-We need to pray fervently for our staff tonight. I feel like they are really under attack. I understand that today, Steve Gaines took the staff down to Oxford, MS to spend the night and have a retreat. I know there are a lot of men down there this evening that do not agree with Steve Gaines.
REPLY- Wow, what a horrible thing for Dr. Gaines to do. Just horrible.
Proof on your staff comment? From ALL I know, that is totally false!!!!!!
lindon,
Something that has been extremely heavy on my heart.
Consider the following verses concerning the end times.
Mark 13:9-11
9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
Luke 21:12-19
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolk, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not a hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
These passages had always been somewhat confusing to me. I always looked at them and thought that it could not happen in America at least not within my lifetime.
The prevalence of Elder led churches has changed my thinking on these passages dramatically. This system of church governance has the ability to allow a few men to have the power to rule over the entire congregation.
One of the points of disagreement in the by-laws that were voted on at Germantown Baptist Church concerned the authority of the Elders. The Elders were to be given the authority to call a member before their council for any reason that they deemed to be a church matter. The Elders were to be given the authority to execute church discipline.
4545,
You have often said that you know a lot, but you have never said anything that would lead one to believe it.
JMO said...
I am neither pro or con, just someone who loves my church and doesn't want to see a major division. I only ask as I am sure you do that people be accountable to their words. As we've learned from childhood...words hurt more than sticks and stones regardless of the old saying.
JMO,
I agree. Unfortunately, the tragic reality is that the split has already occurred. In fact, in my opinion, it was precipitated by SG who, for reasons known only to himself, came in with an arrogant attitude and the intention to "stir the pot." It has been fueled by MD who has been dreadfully incompetent from the beginning and by a handful of powerful lay leaders who have have ownership invested in SG, are unwilling to see the facts objectively and are attempting to maintain the status quo at any cost. The only question remaining to be decided now is whether the Truth will prevail at Bellevue or be lost with those who are bailing out.
I urge everyone reading here...look past the occasional hot tempered rhetoric and unproven allegations. Look at the facts, which are many...then make your own decision.
TS
noname,
I am believe that you assume that Josh Manning is the blog administrator. That is an incorrect assumption. If you want your post deleted you could address NBBCOF or NASS.
They can take care of it for you.
Dear Brother and Sisters: So there is NO misunderstanding, tomorrow I will scan both the envelope and the letter that I received from DCS. I think that will end any discussion as whether there is an outside investigation. People often ask for fact well tomorrow I am going to give you some.
As for not cooperating with an "offical" investigation you have to ask yourself why. And if you want more facts as if I am telling the truth, just call DCS or Kevin Rardin. Some of you have already done just that and you can confirm what I have said tonight. Or for those that doubt so many of us on here, call them yourself. I will post their phone numbers tomorrow. You are not going to be happy though.
This is serious, much more serious than any of these other issues being discussed here. Please ask the leadership why they are not cooperating.
And please, please join me in prayer. We must take all measures we can to protect our children.
4545 said...
That is funny coming from someone on this blog. With all the totally false rumors and 10th hand knowledge that is on this blog.
Reply:
I am sure that you wish that they were false. Whether they come 10th hand or 1st hand, the truth is still the truth. So far the blog has a batting average that would make Willie Mays envious.
swtt said-We need to pray fervently for our staff tonight. I feel like they are really under attack. I understand that today, Steve Gaines took the staff down to Oxford, MS to spend the night and have a retreat. I know there are a lot of men down there this evening that do not agree with Steve Gaines.
REPLY- Wow, what a horrible thing for Dr. Gaines to do. Just horrible.
Proof on your staff comment? From ALL I know, that is totally false!!!!!!
10:12 PM, January 08, 2007
10:05 PM, January 08, 2007
10:03 PM, January 08, 2007
These 3 please NBBCOF Please delete these.
Also why can I not delete my own posts? I closed my account and reopened it.
4545
Running outof things to say? You're repeating yourself.
truthsleuth,
The reason that Steve Gaines caused the split is so that they can recruit the spiritually imature i2 crowd. The spiritually discerning crowd are a burden to this leadership because we won't let them do whatever they want. To them it is about control of a pile of cash. To the group that is sticking it out it is about the church.
4545
Regarding the staff - why do you think YOU would know who supports Gaines?
Things are not always as they seem these days.....
4545: I will bite. I am in a foul mood tonight after I got off the phone with the D.A. What is it that I have said that is not true?
David Brown,
I have spoke with a few people this evening that have spoke with DA's office and I can confirm that they have been told that it is more specific the administration being uncooperative, it is Steve Gaines personally that is being uncoopeative.
Why is an excellant question! It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.
piglet- Either you have the facts or you do not. Either you have talked to current staff that are unhappy and or do not support Dr. Gaines or you have not.
From your last comment, it seems you just made it up. It seems you think that "might" be the case so you posted it.
Which is it?
David Brown- I have never pointed you out as doing so. What did the DA say?
4545,
I am certain of staff members that have a problem with Steve Gaines.
4545
I know personally of several.
But that's for me to know and you to find out. :0)
4545,
I am also aware that some members, not necessarily of the staff, are of the opinion that the internal investigation has centered around where the "leak" occured and not to getting to the truth.
Are you aware of that?
Tim, I sent you an e-mail.
lindon,
Yahoo travels slowly! :{)
tim,
That is in direct contradiction to what Jim Barnwell?..said to the media concerning a DCS investigation..that BBC would cooperate.
OAG,
Barnwell does as he is told. NO more NO less.
4545,
I have personally talked to staff who are unhappy, disillusioned and angry...several of them. I have also talked to several who are rabid SG supporters. I can tell you that it's much easier to get an opinion from a SG supporter, as you might well imagine.
The staff are genuinely fearful for their jobs as they have seen several of their bretheren forced out.
I know this for a fact. I don't post rumors...
TS
allofgrace,
I did not detect a sense of shock in your tone. I believe that we were warned before hand that more was being done to cover up than fess up.
In the sermon that I saw watched last nite. Dr. Rogers said, "To err is human......to cover it up is too!" Funny, sad and true.
Well, we know 4545 is not staff, male staff that is, or he would be in MS with Gaines??
This musing is making me tired. Goodnight all!
David Brown, God Bless you, sir. This is heartbreaking news you bring us and I know it is with a heavy heart on your part.
I thank God for you and your quest to protect victims of this abomination.
I am praying with you.
If staff want you to know their feelings, they will let you know. Until then, I guess you will just have to wonder which ones agree with Steve Gaines and which ones don't. The signing of support documents are coming out soon to all staff and BF teachers. The line will be drawn in the sand and that one event is going to create fireworks as it should. It would already have been done if the political capital was there. Unfortunately for Steve, it's already been spent.
It sure appears that the spirit of confusion reigns right now in the Bellevue leadership. Each turn is the wrong turn.
Media reports that DCS is investigating
Jim Barnwell states to media that he is not aware of a DCS investigation, but BBC will cooperate if one is launched.
David Brown confirms that said external investigation is taking place.
Jamie Fish and Mark Dougherty both say there is no external investigation.
DA's office states that specifically Dr. Gaines is not cooperating with said external investigation.
Can anyone confirm that what I've listed is accurate?
allofgrace,
It appears that once again Steve Gaines has one up manship on P.T. Barnum.
lindon,
finally got it and reading.
Mom4,
Well, we know 4545 is not staff, male staff that is, or he would be in MS with Gaines??
Only ministers/department heads are on the trip.
tim,
"What is your opinion of the books that are not included in the KJV of the Bible (Tobit, Judith, I&II Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch)?
Also curious if you have heard of, seen or read anything of the Lost Gosepel of Judas?"
I believe that any books written between Malachi and Matthew simply aren't Scripture. That isn't to say everything in the books are wrong. The book of Jude actually quotes from one of the Apocrypha books, and if you read them you'll find some interesting stuff, e.g. condemnation of abortion. However they are not Scripture... "Apocrypha" itself means of doubtful origin.
As for the gospel of Judas, I have heard of it and seen it in stores but haven't read any of it. But it was written quite late and parallels similar bogus works written around that time, and of course I believe it is in no way Scripture as well.
The internal investigation (inquiry) will be interesting since the head investigator is employed by Wayne Vandersteeg and David Hamilton. This information was blogged several weeks ago. I've been to their company website and you can see the head investigators name plain as day employed by Wayne Vandersteeg and David Hamilton.
Does anyone see a conflict of interest here? Wayne Vandersteeg is head of finance this year and many times past on committee. Wayne was also a former staff member of Bellevue.
A serious investigation (inquiry) done for internal purposes has to be done by an independant group or the results have to be tossed out the window.
This mutual relationship between head investigator and close ties to insiders is a fact that is easily verified. It's also wrong!
I know Ar is smiling at one thing
Florida 41
OSU 14
memphis,
LOL
He did love his Gators
AOG, I never held that aginst him! LOL
Final from Glendale, AZ
#2 Florida Gators 41
#1 Ohio State Buckeyes 14
New National champs University of Florida. Go Gators!
There is a sports blog for Memphis.
Can the moderator please remove the post from Memphis.
From now on, please refrain from blogging sports. Also respectfully Dr. Rogers should not be referred to as Ar.
swtt: "The signing of support documents are coming out soon to all staff and BF teachers. "
What? Are you serious?
swtt, Please we all know Pastor Rogers loved the Gators. The little "r" was a typo. And if that is the one thing you have found offensive by me on here, then I am ok with that.
The plans are to roll them out soon. Once again, it will be one of the biggest blunders yet but it will happen. They have already been drawn up.
I'm messin wichya.
Okay, Friends:
David Brown has answered your questions tonight with solid evidence being submitted in writing tomorrow for the whole wide world to see. He has asked us to pray for this situation that is occurring at Bellevue with lack of cooperation from the leadership/pastor.
THIS IS NOT TRIVIAL PROBLEM.
Anyone who can condone this sort of thing by one's church leaders must be woefully lacking in any sort of discernment (and you can call me nine kinds of stupid, degrading names if you want to for it would not surprise me if you did). This is a continuation of scofflaw, renegade behavior that we are seeing over and over again.
then hows about putting a LOL or a ;) in there next so I know! lol
Who was the Vols fan Dr. Rogers used to like to tease?...it escapes me.
Did the DA go into specifics on how Gaines is not cooperating with him?
2006huldah,
That's why I summarized all that we've heard this evening.
David Smith was one of them
"The internal investigation (inquiry) will be interesting since the head investigator is employed by Wayne Vandersteeg and David Hamilton."
Didn't those same guys do a BBC staff study several years ago? Didn't that study have results that were devastating to Mark Dougharty? Weren't they discredited at the time for their findings as they related to Mark Dougharty?
So, what are they hiding? What are they afraid of at Bellevue Baptist Church? This is really getting out of hand.
By the way, what's so pleasant in Oxford, Mississippi that a pastor would want to treat his staff to a break there?
memphis,
I would imagine that he's not cooperating with what the DA's office deems to be pertinent to the investigation.
Lindon,
What a wonderful response Lindon. I wanted to pick up the phone and call you. I do feel that you are reaching out through the grace of God and feeling both my pain and my joy.
I am sure you know this but for clarification, the lies are told so as to spread rumors to ruin your credibility so the leadership can carry out their plans without your interference (who is going to believe the liars, the troublemakers?)...the plans of the church growth movements, the purpose driven church movement, etc. Any discerners who see Truth must be stopped at all costs. Thus the term resistors, pillars, and leaders from hell. It is as if you are staring satan himself right in the face. And I am being nice too. It literally breaks my heart.
Lindon said, "Because God is not there."
Yes.
Lindon said, "Our churches are wallowing in worldliness with biblicaly illiterate elders. It is shameful.)"
And tragic...just look at the results! And all is needed here is repentence and/or the acceptance of the Lord Jesus Christ. I know of nothing more tragic that what is happening in the churches today.
Lindon said, "You are not alone. Jesus Christ is standing with you."
Yes...I do know this.
Lindon said, "Jesus Christ is sifting. He sifted you. But He is allowing the wheat to grow with the tares until judgement day. It is heartbreaking to know this and see it. On that day, He will take the tares and throw them in the burning fire. (See Matthew)"
I pray so that the people of Bellevue will awaken...understand this. This is happening as we speak to you.
Lindon said, "Get on your knees and Praise Him that He showed you this.. Praise Him that you are no longer following men but HIM. Think of this as the greatest thing that has ever happened to you because HE wants you as HIS. Beg Him to save the tares!"
Yes...I do. It is hard sometimes to separate the pain, the hurt we feel at the hands of evil...but I do. I understand. And our utmost prayers must be that the tares will be saved.
Lindon said, "I can literally feel your passion on this subject. It is the most hurtful thing in the world because the church is your spiritual family. But is it? NO. The Body of Christ is your spiritual family. And there is a difference. There is ONLY unity in the Body of Christ in the truth of scripture."
Thank you Lindon. I do realize that you do literally feel my passion on this subject. I have already been through what these people are experiencing now...and you and I know their pain.
The Body of Christ is our spiritual family. I pray that all of you reading this will stay strong in Truth...and know that whatever happens, you will be blessed if you are strong in Him.
I really believe that the day may come in our lifetime that we will see the home church as our refuge. If we linger that long.
Lindon...I want to say a heartfelt thank you for your endeavor to strengthen the people here for what may come their way. I want to thank you for your obvious love for our Lord Jesus Christ. I am glad you came this way.
God Bless...
I don't recall.
I don't remember.
I don't recall.
I don't remember.
I don't know.
I'll check into it and get back to you.
I don't recall.
I don't remember.
I don't know, do you know?
I don't recall.
Was it on tape?
Then you don't have anything.
I don't remember.
Swtt,
The plans are to roll them out soon. Once again, it will be one of the biggest blunders yet but it will happen. They have already been drawn up.
Where did you hear this from? Do you have any concrete evidence for this? And what will happen if someone won't sign it?
Personally I don't think we can count on much if anything from the internal investigation..or as it has been termed.."inquiry".
Insider information. Can't tell you. People's jobs are at stake and I don't think you want to put anyone's job on the line.
Not cooperating with two separate official law enforcement investigations. What else does SG have left in his bag of tricks.
swtt,
Insider information. Can't tell you. People's jobs are at stake and I don't think you want to put anyone's job on the line.
When can we expect to see these forms to sign? Do you know that? Will it be in a few days, weeks, months? How reliable is your source?
graceupongrace,
Thanks for the reply. I wanted to get an idea if we were in the same ball park or not. We are. :)
Well if that's true it might be good legal advice but it's terrible advice for his ministry.
allofgrace,
Here is what I think we can count on. We can count on half-truths, distortions, and omissions. I pray I am wrong. Our church deserves the whole truth. This matter is too serious to play around with.
The only reason anyone refuses to cooperate with the authorities is if they believe they are in legal trouble themselves. They aren't cooperating because they are hiding something. If they aren't cooperating that is the only logical inference. JMHO
lindon,
read and replied.
Ezekiel,
That Micah 2:3 you cited sure sounds like help on the way, I hope.
It's like the law wanting to search a house but they can't without a warrant. Since they aren't going to snatch anyone off the street and torture them for information, don't expect much cooperation from the staff involved. In the eyes of the world, there is a lot to loose. Who really cares about the victim or future victims. Let them fend for themselves. It's a sad day at church when law enforcement is actually being kept on the outside looking in and the church is not cooperating with the laws of the land. Is a church supposed to obey the law of the land in this case? Is it ok for anyone running from the law to hide inside the church? Interesting questions!
4545: I am sorry for taking so long to get back to you. I can't get off the phone. What Kevin Rardin told me tonight was they cannot get anyone from Bellevue to cooperate with their inquires. He said that Larry Griffin of DCS has tried but they would not cooperate. That troubles me. Kevin went on to tell me that he has gotten more cooperation from the Catholic Church than he has from Bellevue in similar matters.
I can't for the love of me understand that. Where is the Word of God in all this? Do we throw that out the window? Please dear beloved Bellevue, please be truthful and transparent. Would someone please answer me what is wrong with that request? My soul is aching right now. I would have never believed my beloved church would ever act this way.
We must put HIM on the throne again. We must do it now. Quit following men and follow HIM.
Please help me. I feel like one crying in the wilderness. Please help me understand why they won't cooperate. Please help me!!
ju,
That's what I was thinking.
Tim, replied again...think about it....
In Christ!
This much we know...Jim Barnwell told the media that BBC would cooperate with an external investigation...now they have reneged.
Maybe they won't cooperate because they made it all up. David have you spoken to PW's son? Has anyone spoken to his son and had him corroborate the story?
Bless you David Brown my Brother.
You are not the only one out here crying out for God to continue to expose Truth. There are more and more members who are starting to see the light. Truth is getting harder and harder to hide these days.
Steve Gaines, David Coombs, Brian Miller, Harry Smith, Chuck Taylor and Mark Doughary, what are you hiding? For the sake of the children, tell the authorities everything. You should have done it last June. It's too late for that, so tomorrow is the day to start fully cooperating. You should drive that church van from Oxford, Mississippi straight to the D.A.'s office and lay it all out there.
Do the right thing, please! Our children are too important not to be protected. It is not your place to decide if someone broke the law or not. Render unto Caesar! Law enforcement is the purview of the state, not the church. If laws were broken a penalty must be paid. It is up to the authorities to determine if someone broke the law.
You men are accountable and you don't know better than everyone else. Do what is right! You are not above the law. If you have done nothing wrong, the facts will bear that out. So fear not.
Memphis: Yes, they will not tell them anything. How bad does it have to be for DCS and the DA to BOTH say they are not cooperating. Or are we going to split hairs over the meaning of the word "is"? Been there done that.
David Brown,
God is still on the throne. There is rest and repose in His throne. Our hearts are with you.
David, hopefully their case does not rely on BBC to deal with PW.
Correct?
David Brown,
I am so sorry this is happening this way. This is one of the most incredible things I have ever yet heard! Ezekiel just posted awhile ago from Micah 2:1-3 and verse 3 was particularly comforting to me. Maybe it will help you, too. I am going to be praying that the Lord will do it. Surely, they will not get away with this for long. Surely not. Lord, help us. Help us ALL! Dee
memphis,
I think anyone would agree that BBC should give whatever pertinent information is necessary for a rightful investigation of this matter.
David Brown, (Who shares a name with a man after God's own Heart)
Please read Psalm 139 tonight before you sleep. I am going to pray it to our Lord for you tonight.
Signing off. In Christ, Lin
AOG, I agree and I am not saying they should not cooperate fully.
If BBC will not be transparent in this investigation then by what authority can it proclaim righteousness to a lost world?
God's wrath is going to continue to come down on Bellevue and the leadership that embraces anything but Truth.
Unless we turn from the direction we are headed, the days ahead are going to be darker and darker.
JU: TRUST ME you don't won't to go down that road and how dare you to put it off on the victim. You are about to get me really mad at you. Some one once suggested that there was no way I could remember my abuse after being silent for 35 years. I ask you how can you ever forget. You can't. Leave this victim out of it. Enough said?
Rather ask the church why they won't answer their questions.
I get sick of people that suggest it didn't happen. That is just sticking your head in the sand or somewhere esle. Where ever it is jerk it out.
I will use the line out of few good men: "You want the truth, YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!"
Leave that alone and if you ever try again to suggest this man is lying I will ask NASS to hit the delete button, if I could I would.
david brown,
I think what ju was suggesting, was that leadership made this up...not the victim.
I am not implying he lied. I am asking a question has anyone actually corroborated his story? Meaning has anyone actually heard the words come out of his mouth? You don't understand where I was heading. I will put it out again. I've said it before. I cannot put it past the group in leadership to put something like this out "moral failure". Calculated words remember. It might very well come out that it is a lesser moral failure than the molestation of his Son. Like I've said before perhaps something that didn't require SG to report anything. Also please note perhaps they're not lying about there not being external investigations if they aren't cooperating. Not much of an investigation if they can't get any cooperation. I'm standing on your side of this issue but clearly things are coming to light that will make you question the entire situation. No?
I may be wrong but this is not the first time today I have heard that and I apologize if I read it wrong. It has been a very long night and very trying.
But as you all can tell when I hear people try to put it off on the vicitm I get very angry and a head of steam. I had several emails today and one phone call suggesting that.
And if leadership of Bellevue is suggest that they need to get a new tune. That is typical in these matters to deflect the blame and put it on the victim. They try to threathen the victim with this tatic. I get very, very defensive.
If I stepped on the wrong toes I am sorry and beg forgiveness but to those that contacted me with same allegations earlier today, don't do it.
I am just curious- does anyone have any valid evidence that PW used his position in the church to abuse anyone outside of his family? Because if not, I don't really see what the church would have to offer- most of those men were not there 17 years ago. Maybe they really don't have much to say.
Just wondering if there could be another explanation.
But let me be clear, I am not giving them a free pass. If they are covering something up I want to know about it. But I am not going to operate on a worst-case scenario basis.
FAIREST LORD JESUS,
MICAH 2:3!!!
BRING IT, Please.
Thank you, Lord
I still believe that the case will go forward against PW regardless if BBC cooperates or not. I honestly believe that BBC should cooperate fully though
I have got to get to bed. Let me suggest this. Tomorrow morning the letter I received from DCS will be posted here for all to copy. Take that to those that told you there was no investigation. Ask them why they said there was no investigation. Let's do that and then see what is their response.
Then contact the DA to confirm they are not cooperating and then ask the leadership why they aren't.
Form your own opinons after taking those two steps. I intend to that myself. Let's compare notes tomorrow night.
Ezekiel,
You've got a bunch of sisters. You just haven't meet 'em all yet.
Thank you for what you said and thank you for giving me Micah. I'd be really screaming right now if it weren't for my brother.
Dee
hulda
Amen and amen!
Good night, All...
I gotta go to my private prayer place for special warrior duty.
Love to all,
Dee
Looks like he's already brung it.
Now, start over from scratch with new wisdom and maybe some humility. Heck, meet in the parking lot--there's room.
Y'all have my best. Good Night.
I think someone is funning you with the comment about the pledge form to sign. At least I hope so.
The pledge forms for BF teachers has been rumored for a couple of weeks...if they come around...you'll know..till then...I wouldn't concern myself with it.
We should all be in earnest prayer for Paul Williams' son. If Bellevue is refusing to cooperate with authorities and Bellevue ministers are denying his abuse occurred, then Bellevue Baptist Church is now victimizing him all over again. He deserves better than that.
To Paul Williams if you are reading this, I wasn't there and I don't know what you did to your son. But, presumably, something happened or the pastor would not have outed your "moral failure." If you have any shred of decency, you will contact the D.A. and DCS yourself and tell them exactly what you did and when you did it. You should do this to spare your son further pain and agony. You will release your son from the decision of having to report his father to the authorites. I can't imagine what he feels like as he faces the decisions he may need to make in the coming days. Do this for him and you release him from some of his burden.
Have you considered the extra measure of pain heaped on your son every day this controversy goes on? Your silence today further violates him. And for what? To protect yourself? I call on you to protect your son. For once do the right thing. In so doing you might regain a modicum of respect.
I am praying for the entire Williams family. I cannot imagine what they are going through.
This question just keeps coming to me...why Oxford? What is there that they would need? What resources?
memphismom02
Now there's a thought. If they put PW back on staff and call all of this a bigmisunderstanding, then they'll be rid of anybody with an ounce of sense.
I think that's what they have wanted all along.
I feel sick.
WTB...
So eloquently worded...
I would beg of a man to do this for his child. Stop the persecution.
You are so right wtb.
Prayerfully...stop this abuse PW.
Well said, westtnbarrister.
And you are right, PW's son is being victimized all over again.
imaresister,
I am a father of three and I cannot imagine placing my children in the position CW is in tonight. We cannot protect our children from all hurts and pains, nor should we. But there are some decisions a son should never have to make about his father. In this instance the father can protect him from that and he should do it and do it immediately.
WTB...
I am with you. Some things are just not imaginable. This is one of them.
I think about this young man so much of the time during my day. Can you even begin to imagine his pain? The stigma?
We expect so much more from a minister of our church...can a son not expect more of the same man?
This whole thing is ludicrous.
I pray for a quick ending to this...it doesn't need to be prolonged. It is tragic enough as it is...let them not give more room for more tragedy.
The damage is done...we can pray for healing and recovery. And we must. Repentance? That goes without saying.
swtt said...
I'm messin wichya.
11:05 PM, January 08, 2007
Wow!!! I saw the above and thought he was trying to get us riled up again.
If PW is somehow exonerated in all this...and finds his way back into a ministerial position..then this church has lost any remnant of a moral compass, or sense of responsibility to it's members.
AOG...it will to be a church.
AOG...sorry, I meant to say:
It will cease to be a church.
I guess I need to go to be. :(
AOG...
bed :)
Goodnight! :(
4545 wrote:
"swtt said-We need to pray fervently for our staff tonight. I feel like they are really under attack. I understand that today, Steve Gaines took the staff down to Oxford, MS to spend the night and have a retreat. I know there are a lot of men down there this evening that do not agree with Steve Gaines
"REPLY- Wow, what a horrible thing for Dr. Gaines to do. Just horrible.
"Proof on your staff comment? From ALL I know, that is totally false!!!!!!"
ace wrote:
"Only ministers/department heads are on the trip."
Oops! Looks like "ace" and Mr. Deacon didn't get their talking points straight tonight!
Imortant food for though
Most of the bloggers here are serious about the state of our church and what is happening in Christendom. Here are some things that at first might not seem to be so important, but upon reflection, they are at the core of the problem we are facing.
Most Christians are STARVING spiritually and from what we have seen at Bellevue, they do not even know it. We have asked Why? How could this be? The answer is they THINK they are learning the Word of God because they attend Bible study classes or SS or chruch services where the Word is SUPPOSEDLY being taught. However, there has been a DECLINE in the Word being taught verse by verse and book by book. I should say a total absence of that. The flock has become anesthetized with music, entertainment, and MOTIVATIOONAL sermons.The flock no longer know what it is to hear in=depth teaching of the Word of God.
Now we have been hurled head long into the chruch growth movement. We have all been drilled to participate in it. NUMBERS are the game and take precedence over true spiritual things. We've been coned into believing that this PD, chruch growth and seeker friendly garbage is really "filling the great commission". Just to even consider they have anything in common is to see how luke-warm and backslidden we have become.
The Sunday morning messages are shallow and very few of the flock have a frame of reference for what a teaching ministry should be. The chruch has bee "DUMBDED DOWN, the pulpit has been DUMBED DOWN" AND WE HAVE BEEN "DUMBDED DOWN". We are in the midst of a crisis and most of the flock, with the exception of the army here, standing up for exposure of cover-ups, are oblivious or defend the "new age" of the chruch age.
rod.....
As a casual observer of this pastor change from the Sundays with the committee chair and members updating, the initial announcement, and then the first sermon.....it seems that this was a calculated move to change the direction of the church, or at the very least, the philosophy of the leadership. SG is what he is. They wanted him and the package he offered. It seems to me he made it clear that he would make dramatic changes. I experienced the shock of that early on. So now we have what somebody wanted, and apparently 'they' were willing to sacrifice whatever necessary to get it. And pathetically God was used as the driving force behind all this because 'they' discerned His will in this matter. I wonder if any of that committee has any sense of violating their own spiritual wholeness by 'selling' the company line on the decision of the committee!
eprov,
I and many others felt that Dr. Gaines was chosen long before the search committee was formed. I think you've nailed it in that key members in leadership decided what direction they wanted the church to go, then saw in Dr. Gaines, the one who would fill the bill. Honestly I don't think discernment had anything to do with it. I don't think there ever was a "search" other than searching for whatever it would take to secure his coming to Bellevue.
Rod Almondmartanti said...
"Imortant food for thought..."
Rod...you've got it!!!
Good morning...if you missed reading the above post by Rod, do yourself a favor and go back and read it. For a lot of you, it is knowledge you already have. For some, it may be an eye opener. It is nor more or less than what a lot of us have already posted on this site...but he has summed it up well and you need to hear it again.
Rod...(and all), John MacArthur has a book entitled, Ashamed of the Gospel. It is very good and I recommend it highly. The Christian radio station hosted by Mike Corley in Vicksburg (I think it is Vicksburg?)was birthed from his having read this book.
Thanks again for your post.
Rod, Eprov, AOG...
I hope and pray that you and those like you can reach those who have scales on their eyes. I praise God for your discernment.
I think you are all correct...this was in the bag from early on.
Some of these CGM (PD)churches 'network'...that may be the case here. It was probably a well orchestrated plan.
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