Note: The purpose of this forum is for discussion of serious issues in a civil and respectful manner, which most of the people who've come here have maintained, and for that, I truly appreciate all of you and your efforts! However, the past two nights a small group of sheep not only chose to run amok but just about everywhere else sheep shouldn't tread. Let's just say I do not want to ever see a repeat performance of the last two night's sessions. I also do not need advice about which comments I should or should not delete and will not respond to any "encouragement" of that nature. I don't tell anyone else how to moderate any other forum and would appreciate the same courtesy in return. Any post containing the phrase hate-filled or grow up or the word precious, cookie, attack, or similar sentiments or silliness will be subject to deletion. I would also like to ask our serious posters to not respond to these sorts of comments in any way. In other words, don't feed the trolls!
Another note: We've seen this "troll" tactic before, and they've even threatened to change just a letter or two in the screen name to throw people off. So carefully read the screen name before responding. In fact, check the profile. If the name is familiar (or exactly the same but the message sounds out of character) and the profile view number is low, it could be an imposter. I've no doubt "blessne" is someone on the "pro-SG side" who is trying to make "us" look bad. Don't fall into their traps!
To those who are using these tactics, I would ask you, if we're such a small number of "disgruntled" members, then why bother with us? Surely we couldn't pose any threat to anyone.
Let me remind everyone with legitimate concerns to really think about the tone you use and not to throw out unfounded accusations or suppositions not based on fact. If you're angry when you write something, take the time to cool off before you publish it. It'll be much easier to separate the wheat from the chaff if you'll maintain a civil, respectful tone regardless of your opinions.
Now, having gotten those unfortunate but necessary statements out of the way, shall we continue?
I have received a couple of intriguing e-mails in the past week or so from someone with the partial e-mail address of "TLineman33." Unfortunately, this brave soul did not sign his or her name, but I get the impression he or she is not a member of Bellevue. However, I thought I'd share his or her rather interesting thoughts anyway.
The first was apparently forwarded to this mystery person by our own Grandma Billie and contained an attached letter which Mr. Dave Shreve, a Bible Fellowship teacher at Bellevue, sent to Mark Sharpe. In it Mr. Shreve states that he "doubts" he'll see the letter published on Mr. Sharpe's website. Since I'm not aware of Mr. Sharpe having a website, and since Mr. Shreve seems to desire his letter be published on such a site, I thought I'd oblige.
The second document consists of two letters from "Lineman33" which I think speak for themselves. The January 6th letter refers to the letter to Mark Sharpe from above.
Then yesterday at least two posters received this letter from "Will":
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007
From: Wranglerguy8 wranglerguy8@yahoo.com
Subject: Letter from Will
To: xxxxxxxx
I have been reading your posts on the anti-everything blog. You are one sick woman. I would tend to think you need to get some counseling for deliverance from your evil and wicked spirit.
You are a sad excuse for a believer.
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621 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 621 Newer› Newest»Tim, You did the right thing here about the scripture. You can never go wrong expositing scripture in context. We may want it to say something else to fit our preconceieved notions.. I know I did when I read Romans 9. I used to just ignore it because I did not want to believe it!
Thanks for being a Berean.
mom4 said- SO READ MY LIPS - NO CHARGES APPEARING ON THIS BLOG HAVE TURNED OUT TO BE UNTRUE.
REPLY- You are claiming that be true starting from the very beginning? From the first rumors until now, they are all true?
I am trying to get in touch with my friend re: the pledge.
As soon as she calls me back, i will try to either get her to post, or i will have her on the phone and i will post her story, word for word as she tells it to me.
FedUp,
I only sent you one email...can you please respond to it? It'd mean a lot to me...
FedUp,
Or at least let me know if you read it....I can't make you accept an apology or make you forgive me.
ACe,
sorry, I got a really nasty email from someone named Will. Was that not you?
fedup- NO, you did not see the entire picture, like most everything else. You see what you want to see! You need to apologize.
FedUp,
No...It should have come from "Mr. Ace". (acefromthebbcforum@yahoo.com)...and I only sent one email to you to the address in your profile.
All,
I have no problem apologizing for misreading what I saw today. That is why i ended my first post about it earlier with, " did anyone else see this"..
Apparently, my view was blocked and I did not see the man that was at the altar before Carter went to him.
This was a gracious act on the part of SG and I do believe that he must have meant well when he motioned for Carter to come over there.
Please accept my apologies to everyone involved.
Thanks fedup
Thank you fedup....
ACe,
An email that was sent at 3:30 today just arrived in the last few minutes.
This must be why i do not have your email.
fedup..we can compare emails from Will and see if he sent us both the same vile info:)
"fedupatbbc said...
All,
I have no problem apologizing for misreading what I saw today. That is why i ended my first post about it earlier with, " did anyone else see this"..
Apparently, my view was blocked and I did not see the man that was at the altar before Carter went to him.
This was a gracious act on the part of SG and I do believe that he must have meant well when he motioned for Carter to come over there.
Please accept my apologies to everyone involved.
8:54 PM, January 07, 2007
4545 said...
Thanks fedup
8:55 PM, January 07, 2007
ace said...
Thank you fedup....
8:56 PM, January 07, 2007"
Well, there is a God, after all--haha.
Mom,
In a disturbing sorta way, I feel better that you got the email too,
LOL!!!
mofocrates said:
Well, there is a God, after all--haha.
****
Well, I coulda told you THAT!!! :)
lucy,
if you're still around..did you get my email?...just wanted to make sure...yahoo mail these days is getting close to being "snail mail".
cjesusnme,
If we all hold our breath waiting for that one, then there won't be any more trouble makers to worry about.
cjesusnme: I believe that one of the greatest failings of the seeker/warrenism/GCM movement is the fact that the true character of God is not discussed or taught. God's love and mercy is taught, but not His righteousness and judgement....forgiveness but not consequences.....joy but not conviction. We must know the whole character of God, not just a part of it. Of course, no one wants to hear about the other side of the coin. Yet, we must if we are going to mature in our Christian walk. Our leaders need to start recognizing and addressing the whole character of God. Thanks for your post. :)
tim,
I appreciate your Bereanness (a new word I made up). cjesusnme, concernedsbcer, you are right about the need to teach and preach the whole council of God...it's a lot of what's missing in the pulpits of today.
FedUp,
An email that was sent at 3:30 today just arrived in the last few minutes.
Do me a favor, please, and when you get it could you let me know? All I'm asking for is a simple 'Got it'...I'm not asking for anymore more than that. Thanks.
cjesusnme: With the superficial SS literature being taught now, the watered down scripture, and lack of accountability, where do you think the change needs to start? And how?
Frank,
Yes, that post was ridiculous about Steve telling Carter to bow down at the altar...but to the defense of the people here, the person who mentioned it apologized for her mistake.
And I don't know if you've been following this blog or not, but I am someone here to supports Gaines and BBC....so that says a lot when I post the above statement. :)
and I'm not talking just at Bellevue...these problems are SBC problems...I believe Bellevue has done as well as she has for so many years because of the leadership of Dr. Rogers. But now is a new day.....
tim,
I have read your posts and your comments about the sermon today, and thought I could offer something that might help.
First, what might seem like a bombshell:
The main point of the Scripture passage does not have to be the main point of the sermon.
The author of the text could have been writing to argue something else, but if it provides material for another point that is Scriptural, then it can be used for the main point of the sermon.
Example: There have been many great sermons preached about eternal security/blessed assurance using Luke 15's The Prodigal Son, though this isn't the main point of the passage. In fact, if my memory serves me correctly, since Dr. Gaines, we've had 3 sermons from The Prodigal Son, all from different angles.
Dr. Gaines has a different method of preaching than Dr. Rogers. Dr. Rogers generally chose a passage and mainly stuck with it during the sermon. Dr. Gaines models C.H. Spurgeon's preaching style, which tended to use many scriptural references during the sermon which were outside of the main text. Both methods can be pulled off effectively. I'm sure you've noticed by now, but Dr. Gaines uses certain points that come from the main text he's preacing on as a springboard, and explores the topics elsewhere in Scripture. And it is my conviction that his sermon today was backed up with Scripture.
You mentioned you haven't taken any seminary courses on preaching. If you're interested, Covenant Theological Seminary offers many FREE online seminary courses, including one on Preaching, with 25 lessons in all. You don't have to register at the site or anything. You can download them immediately. I've listened to all the Preaching lessons at the site and found them very helpful. Yes, Covenant is probably of a different theological persuasion than you (it's a Reformed seminary), but that won't really come through to you in a course on preaching. It is certainly very high quality, though.
concernedSBCer said...
"and I'm not talking just at Bellevue...these problems are SBC
problems..."
You are right. And the solution lies in correctinig the whole problem, not just part of it...starting with the SBC. Today I have been going over a list of books by contemplative, emergent, church growth movement,pantheist, new age sympathizers authors that are available at Lifeway. It is unbelievable the filth that is on their shelves. We must boycott these stores. We must write letters. We must visit the stores and complain. We just simply cannot continue to support these stores...that are part of the problem. Do you realize that in buying their wares, we are supporting those who are tearing our churches apart? Truly something must really be done.
Oh, and as Dr. Gaines even mentioned tonight, accurately, it's impossible to discuss every single thing in an expository unit. Scripture simply says so much. It's not a preacher's job to discuss every single part of an expository unit. Instead he should find one big idea expressed in the expository unit and support it from the Scripture. See again the seminary downloads I linked to in my above post.
GraceUponGrace,
Excellent post, points + link...thanks for sharing!
imaresistor,
The problem is, there's hardly a Christian bookstore in existence that doesn't sell some questionable books. You'd almost have to stop buying books altogether.
graceupongrace,
Covenant is very gracious in offering those seminary courses online for free..there's a lot of good resources out there at no cost.
Frank,
That’s not by any stretch of the imagination the first “ridiculous” comment to come from here.
I'll have to agree with you on that statement....there are actually a lot of ridiculous posts here in my opinion...but there's nothing you or I can do about that so we'll have to deal with it. We just have to leave that up to our blog administrator and her judging for deciding what's ridiculous and not. :)
And I believe that person was, just like EVERYTHING else here, trying to start something else that the media or the blogger troopers could run with.
I have to disagree with this. I have had many arguments with FedUp and highly disagree with MANY issues she posted and etc.... but I honestly belive she made a mistake there and she realizes that and she's sorry for it. I don't, however, know her true intentions...but that is what I see from my observations.
The pattern here is clear; say something really stupid and see if you can get attention then ask for an apology or clarification from the church leadership.
Yes, I've seen a lot of that here.... then some (not all) people reject the apology and laugh at him for apologizing! It's quite silly at times.
4545 wrote:
"Why do you continue to delete Frank's posts?"
Same reason I continue to delete yours, Mr. Deacon.
NBBCOF
cjesusnme: I certainly did not mean to imply that there are not some good teachers and leadership in our churches. Please forgive me if it sounded that way. I was only noting a general trend I have seen.
frank
We may seem happy because our conscience is clean before the Lord.
WE are not "behind this", we are trying to expose what has been and is being hidden.
We all KNOW that our pastor has broken the law three times since coming to BBC:
1) trespassing
2) co-mingling of funds (breaking the tax code to get tax free goods or services)
3) not reporting a child molester untilforced to by this blog
Other charges were never addressed
by our leadership, but instead, were squashed , and a deacon thrown out for refusing to stop asking the same questions.
Gaines has a God complex, feels he shouldn't be questioned and you are supporting his prideful stance.
Don't pray FOR us, pray WITH us that all will be revealed and God's will be done concerning our church.
Then, if God reveals the truth, don't label it a lie.
Piglet: great post. :)
Ace
Thanks for acknowledging the apology by Fed Up, who DID, by the way, ask if anyone else saw it so they could clarify.
allofgrace said...
"The problem is, there's hardly a Christian bookstore in existence that doesn't sell some questionable books. You'd almost have to stop buying books altogether."
Yes, of course...this goes without saying. However, Lifeway is supported through the Southern Baptist's cooperative programs...and we all support this through our tithes and offerings. It is a vicious cycle. We need to make our voices heard. IMO
NASS,
you have mail:)
Piglet,
Thanks for acknowledging the apology by Fed Up, who DID, by the way, ask if anyone else saw it so they could clarify.
No problem...I have no problem acknowledging when someone makes a "right" post or whatever you should call it....
Frank,
piglet.....she said she saw it from the front...she was hoping no one saw it so she could keep on! Don't you get it?
That's true....but she apologized for her mistake. I think we should forgive her. But hey, you're free to do as you like....I know I have forgiven her. It was a mistake and I've made some and would want to be treated in no other way than to be forgived.
frank
Maybe you can understand the tiniest bit of how Mark Sharpe felt.
Some of your posts are here for us to read but nobody listened to HIM.
This is the closest we will ever get to a business meeting to discuss these issues. Hence, the frustration you see from some here.
It really hurts when nobody listens, doesn't it?
cjesusnme said...
"It is frustrating though as you mentioned to see it all around us and not just BBC or just within the SBC. I learned some statistics last year about the prediction of how the Muslim religion will be the dominant religion in the US by the year 2025. I think what is happening within the SBC is a prime example of how this will happen. Any thoughts from anyone on this?"
Used to I would have told you in response to a statement like this that you had, indeed, lost your ever loving mind! Now...I say to you that I can certainly see the logic in what you are saying. It has become a sad state of affairs in which we are living.
Folks,
If NASS isn't going to allow Frank to continue to post, I think it's only fair that we don't keep asking him questions and etc. It makes it impossible for him to answer, so your questions are essentially useless.
piglet,
"2) co-mingling of funds (breaking the tax code to get tax free goods or services)"
Do you have any proof that Dr. Gaines had used the church credit card intentionally to get tax breaks? I've worked at stores before, and I've had people come in that purchased stuff, and afterwards said, "Oh, no, I didn't mean to use my company credit card," though we couldn't cancel the transaction and they had to repay their company. It happens more often than you might think.
cjesusnme,
I believe we're in a doctrinal downgrade...meaning that the focus these days is more on experiences and feelings rather that on doctrine. When we do that we enter the realm of the subjective unknown...experience and feelings ...or felt needs are always changing...Biblical truth never changes...why there is such a disdain or distaste for doctrine I don't know...but what is seen in the bookstores, etc. is a sign of what people would rather read or hear. I think some of it is because the faith has been so influenced by culture rather than the culture being influenced by our faith...there are so many factors in this, but I would mostly attribute it to the fact that Jesus himself told us it would be like this.
frank and 4545,
I'm not sure it's going to do a whole lot for your cause to keep posting when he's clearly going to delete the posts. Even if you are in the right, all that people will see after this is a bunch of deleted posts and think, "Oh, those pro-Gaines people are troublemakers." Just give it some time and come back to the forums tomorrow.
Ace
Maybe if Frank will calm down a bit and be civil we can converse.
Isn't that right, NASS?
I, for one, don't mind a challenge.
I don't mind explaining myself.
No cjesusnme, I think, in the future, there will be dratic drops in Christianity, Islam and other fundementalist religions, larger due to the havoc unleashed on the world by their followers.
Where did something so good go so wrong?
Tim, I was not aware of the 10 minute rule. I apologize for not responding sooner but my response would be to say that I love you brother. I don't utilize the scripture to battle a fellow believer. I'll leave that to the Holy Spirit. I have a full life and limit my time in negative environments. Also, I had to meet after church with the stand captains and the cheer captains. I was very disappointed in their lack of effort this morning. It was decided that there was confusion as to timing. If they had stood too early then it would have seemed to be an appreciation for the choir. The confusion led to indecision which led to no action at all. Yes, this is jest for all you conspiracy hunters out there.
mom4, your apology is accepted.
All, I am still amazed that many of you place suppositions on this thread and then have others react as if it's fact.
Piglet,
Maybe if Frank will calm down a bit and be civil we can converse.
I, personally, thought Frank was civil. He only acted a little bit abnormal once all of his posts were deleted....but again, that's what I saw. If NASS saw otherwise, then she did.....
Isn't that right, NASS?
I'd love to hear her side of this... and I'm being sincere here. My posts were deleted from last night. Sure, I was acting a little childish, but other people were too but their posts were kept up. I'm confused. People were being hurtful towards me but I never called people names and etc. I promise I'm not trying to cause trouble now, NASS, I'm just still utterly confused at the moment and am hoping for some clarification....please? And please don't delete this, as I promise I'm being sincere and am looking for the answers.
Having fun, Frank? I've got all night!
NBBCOF
graceupongrace
I believe it was proven to be a Bellevue account (not credit cards) that was used on two separate occasions per the CC mailout.
He knows how this stuff works but whether or not he planned to break the law before hand, I don't know.
I just know he broke the law when he did it.
Ok, folks, I am on the phone with my friend..
She said that she had to show many people becuase no one would believe that they were REQUIRING that she sign this pledge. It came in a packet of information.
It wanted her to sign this form, where she would pledge to be supportive to the church and to the PASTOR, and pledge that you were tithing TO YOUR CHURCH.
She was told that she would have to have meeting with Paul Williams if she did not want to sign it. And then she never heard anything else. The lady from the office called her a couple of weeks later and asked her if she was still going, They DID a background check on her, as well.
,IF you call the youth office and ask to volunteer they will send you a packet of information and the pledge is in it. This is a packet for folks that have never volunteered before for the youth.
So there ya have it.
cjesusnme: I have seen that statistic before as well. I find it disturbing and frightening. I guess I could give a pat answer of "Oh well, the Bible says this will happen in the last days," but I'm not comfortable doing that. "If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land."(2 Chronicles 7:14) Now I realize God was talking directly to Solomon, but I believe this verse holds hope for us as well.
FedUp,
Does your friend still have those papers? If so, does she also have a scanner that she can scan the documents?
piglet,
"he planned to break the law before hand, I don't know.
I just know he broke the law when he did it."
I don't know if he broke the law, I'm not really familiar with all the tax laws... I kind of doubt he broke the law and will ever be charged with anything. But even if he did, breaking man's law does not necessarily equal sin.
piglet
**didn't mean to cut off part of your quote.
For anyone reading, piglet's full sentence, as quoted in my post above, was "He knows how this stuff works but whether or not he planned to break the law before hand, I don't know."
ACe,
I don't know..call the youth office and get a 'packet'.
If they have taken it out of the packet, I will check around and see what happened to the copies that she made to show people.
Fed Up
Ace had a great idea :)
frank,
Honestly, give it a rest. Even if you weren't doing anything wrong at the start, you're certainly being very childish now by spamming the forums. Your posts are clearly going to keep being deleted, and it's not going to make your side look any better.
graceupongrace said...
piglet,
"2) co-mingling of funds (breaking the tax code to get tax free goods or services)"
Do you have any proof that Dr. Gaines had used the church credit card intentionally to get tax breaks? I've worked at stores before, and I've had people come in that purchased stuff, and afterwards said, "Oh, no, I didn't mean to use my company credit card," though we couldn't cancel the transaction and they had to repay their company. It happens more often than you might think."
Credit card charges can always be cancelled or reversed. Sometimes the managemnt prefers that you do not because of small charges that may be incurred. But if someone insists, legally, you have to cancel the charge.
On the tax breaks, that is an issue with IRS, and while Steve Gaines probably did not charge the events/motel/whatever to the church to save a few dollars on the tax, he sure did receive considerable discounts BECAUSE he charged it to the church who has discounted rates the same as a corporate or government discount PLUS the savings on taxes. He actually should pay the full amount that any other person would pay.
Trying to be objective and giving him the benefit of the doubt, if one listens to his explanation on 9/24, he apparently has been in the possession of a church credit card for many years and should be well aware of the tax code and the violations he committed by the use of it.
FedUp,
I don't know..call the youth office and get a 'packet'.
I might do that... if there is in fact a pledge that you have to sign to volunteer, I'll be the first that's silly. I think there is some miscommunication or a misunderstanding going on, though somewhere.
If they have taken it out of the packet, I will check around and see what happened to the copies that she made to show people.
I'd love to see a copy if you can get my one....either via a scan or just leaving it somewhere in the church for me to pickup.
Mofocrates said...
"No cjesusnme, I think, in the future, there will be dratic drops in Christianity, Islam and other fundementalist religions, larger due to the havoc unleashed on the world by their followers.
Where did something so good go so wrong?"
You did not address this to me, but saw and appreciated your dialogue. We have heard it...the one world rule.
I'll answer you Frank--because nobody likes being barked at by a sycophant with dominance issues.
Just say'n.
Ace had a great idea :)
Just in case something happens to that original post I just want to keep this quote safe and sound. I can't believe I just read that...
AllofGrace: I know exactly what you mean! We can not base our Christianity and walk on our "feelings." When emotion overtook thought, we were in trouble. Those other movements we have been talking about focus on FEELINGS. Therein lies the danger; that's why we have to KNOW what the Bible says and know it is the same always.
mom4,
Probably the most likely scenario is that he made accidental charges and didn't realize it until later. But you are right, I guess he should pay the difference in taxes or whatever. Now the question is whether he knows he is supposed to do that. If the church finance team told him the matters were settled, I'm not sure we have any reason to believe he is purposely not paying the extra taxes.
graceupongrace,
You must make your profile visible to post comments. Otherwise, they'll be deleted.
Thanks,
NBBCOF
Frank said:
piglet.....she said she saw it from the front...she was hoping no one saw it so she could keep on! Don't you get it?
LOL...Frank,
From where i was standing..it was difficult to get the ' big picture'. It would have been much much easier to see from the balcony. That is why i asked for clarification.
I am not smart enuf to plan what you suggest,( that i asked if anyone else saw it so that i could continue) that should be obvious by the fact that I did not get it right AT ALL.. I was way way off, and i am so very very sorry.
what's a sycophant?
Ace, did you ever get my email?
**new bbc open forum**
I have "Share my profile" checked in my settings, and I've had it shared from the beginning, but all of a sudden I'm getting that error too. I noticed outsider's at the top is disabled too. Any ideas? Maybe blogger is messed up tonight
I am sorry.
I just got upset when this is my 3rd or 4th time here and first post and it got deleted. I didn't say anything bad. I just commented. Then I got deleted?
I didn't realize you all were so sensitive. I thought you wanted to discuss.
Again, sorry...I lost it I guess. I just wanted people to see what you all were deleting and I have to hit the refresh button to see recent comments so I thought I had to post a bunch to let folks see what was being deleted. I thought it was a valid point to a comment that you all had no voice.
Now go ahead and delete this.
NASS
You've got mail :)
blogger is not the most stable program around for sure...the last 3 days it's been experiencing problems quite a bit.
**new bbc open forum**
I think it's working again now and I haven't done anything... must have been a problem with Blogger.
After last night's discussions, I wanted to say that I really enjoyed the service this morning, including the AWESOME choir number, and the sermon.
Memphis,
Ace, did you ever get my email?
No.
GraceUponGrace,
I can see your profile just fine...
syc·o·phant (sĭk'ə-fənt, sī'kə-) Pronunciation Key
n. A servile self-seeker who attempts to win favor by flattering influential people.
Ace, tried to resend it tonight
how does one delete a post?
Why did you delete my definition?
Was it wrong? Seriously?
graceupongrace,
Yep, looks like it's working now. Thanks.
NBBCOF
graceupongrace
I believe we are subject to the law unless man's law is in conflict with God's law.
"Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's..."
God says to obey the law of the land and not to obey the law is not to obey God, which is sin.
piglet,
But I don't think this is an act of disobedience against the law, I think it's an act of ignorance, which is what is in discussion.
You know, the bottom line is that Dr Gaines is either ordained of God to lead Bellevue, irrespective of his failings regarding the pedophile, or his suitability for the job is reflected in his choices and he is accountable to that.
It seems the church body falls into these two camps, and the twain shall never meet.
Memphis,
still nothing...which is odd because I'm receiving emails from other people + sending emails back without a problem.
graceupongrace
My first point was simply that he broke the law.
Intentionally would be criminal.
By mistake, would be negligence.
I believe both are punishable by law.
At the least it is negligent.
Just not a good quality for the pastor of amega church who should know better after 20+ years in the pulpit.
Frank,
I'll address this one time. Your very first post was not meant to initiate a meaningful discussion, and you know it. I made it clear in the topic heading, or I thought I did, that those coming here just to stir things up are not welcome. We have posters with all different viewpoints who express themselves without being argumentative or hurling insults. So if you really want to come here and have a civil discussion with other posters, that is acceptable. Otherwise, please don't bother to comment again because your comments will continue to be deleted.
Someone else had already given the definition of "sycophant" in uh... less colorful terms than you used.
NBBCOF
Ace, ya got me, I have tried sending from my personal account and tried just replying to the forsy email sent from you? ?????
mofocrates
Dr. Rogers never led us to believe he was not to be held accountable. Why would anyone think that a pastor is not held accountable?
He's not the pope.
piglet,
Your first post seemed to imply he was intentionally doing it to get tax free goods when you said "(breaking the tax code to get tax free goods or services)"
Nevertheless it seems we now both agree that we don't know for sure if it was intentional, though we disagree on how big of an issue this is. Personally I think it's a bit silly, but we'll have to agree to disagree on that.
cjesusnme said...
"It is frustrating though as you mentioned to see it all around us and not just BBC or just within the SBC. I learned some statistics last year about the prediction of how the Muslim religion will be the dominant religion in the US by the year 2025. I think what is happening within the SBC is a prime example of how this will happen. Any thoughts from anyone on this?"
We need to arm ourselves with the Word. We need to be teaching our children / grandchildren how to discover truth for themselves. We need to "love not our life unto death". We need to be in prayer.
m'crates,
I'm going to ask that if you post any more comments that you post using a different screen name -- for obvious reasons.
Thanks,
NBBCOF
Memphis,
Try emailing me at acefromBBC@gmail.com
Ace, 10-4. trying that account.
Well,
And he always seemed accountable, humbly so. I don't think Dr Gaines can muddle this with Bible verses, appeals to his annointing, standing ovations, strong-arm deacons or whatever else.
But the true believers, you'll never convince them otherwise.
graceupongrace said...
piglet,
"2) co-mingling of funds (breaking the tax code to get tax free goods or services)"
"Do you have any proof that Dr. Gaines had used the church credit card intentionally to get tax breaks? I've worked at stores before, and I've had people come in that purchased stuff, and afterwards said, "Oh, no, I didn't mean to use my company credit card," though we couldn't cancel the transaction and they had to repay their company. It happens more often than you might think."
First, I've never heard of not being able to cancel a transaction. Second, do not take the company credit card home with you.
I had a job where I was responsible for all purchasing for the company; I had unlimited access to the company's check book and a company credit card with a monthly $10k line of credit that had my name on it. I NEVER mistook the company's credit card for my own. I did not carry it unless I was going out specifically to make a purchase for the company. Ethics and common sense dictates here.
When you throw in the mix the church's tax-free status, most definitely, ethics and personal integrity come into play.
m'crates,
See my previous message to you!
NBBCOF
Thanks NASS
cjesusnme,
Here's a link to an article by Al Mohler that might interest you.
Link
Frank
If you're still out there - our first choice would be a BBC business neeting where both sides could receive a proper hearing..
This was denied, so per Matt. 18, we are attempting to reach the church body via this blog,website, news if necessary. We've been given no other recourse.
The CC only allowed questions, not statements or evidence, and when asked questions responded "I don't know" or "next question".
The CC meetings ended just when attendance was up over 200 people.
The church body wants these issues settled (not ignored) but the leadership has not allowed that, I think, for obvious reasons.
I'm not really surprised you would come here angry because we've been smeared pretty badly by this same leadership that wants us to shut upand go away...
Where did BBC get its name? Was it from the street on which it was built?
fedup,
possibly..not sure..Bellevue may have been a community name as well.
Fed Up
Yep! We were on Bellevue Ave.
Our VHS video we watched tonite was of the old church in midtown.
Memories...
Oh Pooh!
I think Frank must have gone to bed.
I had a fat little red dachsund named Frank ... rest his soul.
goodnight all
fedup:
Yes, the church was named after the street it was on. Mississippi Blvd. Christian Church bought it from us and is still in it.
Funny, huh? Miss. Blvd. is now on Bellevue Ave. and Bellevue is on Appling. I guess that's true of a lot of churches in Mfs that have relocated to the suburbs and kept their old names.
Dee
NASS I think I sent you an e-mail by mistake. I've got a sensitive touch pad on my lap top - sorry.
G'nite NASS, Fed Up, AOG, Frank (wherever you are)and John Boy..
G'nite Dee :)
G'nite, Little Piglet...
gnite piglet, dee, mary ellen, grandpa, grandma
AllofGrace: thanks for the great link. It said what I've been saying in a much better way! Our generation has to step up to the plate. Thanks again.
concerned, cjesusnme,
You're both welcome..Dr. Mohler addresses many current issues of our day..keep his site bookmarked...there's many of his articles and commentaries there.
AOG....
I could get into a standing O for the message at that link! :)
Click here to listen to Dr. Danny Akin preach a message entitled What Does a Real Christian Look Like? A Tribute to Dr. Adrian Rogers, The Man of God.
You can either listen online or download the mp3. His text is available in pdf form.
I believe anyone who takes the time will be blessed just as I was blessed.
WTB,
did you get my email?...i called last nite and left you a message as well.
eprov,
I agree..one the things I really like about Dr. Mohler is that he cuts right to the heart of the matter and hits the nail on the head.
AOG,
I have been listening to Dr. Mohler's radio program and reading his blog and commentaries since the Sunday he preached at Bellevue several years ago. I have tremendous respect for his integrity and his intellect. He is a clear thinking man of God. Thank you for linking to that particular commentary. When he gives a warning we ignore it at our peril.
AOG,
I just found your email. I never listen to our messages. My wife will probably tell me sometime today I need to call you.
Please email me back with your phone number. I lost my address book when my pc crashed.
WTB,
I agree...Danny Akins is another man I admire a great deal, and has preached at Bellevue in the last few years as well.
To Mark Sharpe & Family,
Our hearts are broken over the BF Class being so dishonoring to you as well as to our Lord Jesus Christ.
Please know there are many who have 'Taken up their cross' in large by your steps of Faith.
Concerning BBC & SG... our hearts were troubled in the fall of 2005 but we thought we were the only ones. That was a lonely place to be! You made a path for many to share in this journey to bring honor to God.Thank you!!
Our prayers are with you and yours...
Christmas Eve I stood with bitter sweet tears on my face as you and your family took another step in your walk of Faith...
God Bless you and yours,
His Peace be with you...
Regarding the credit card issue,
graceupongrace said...
I don't know if he broke the law, I'm not really familiar with all the tax laws... I kind of doubt he broke the law and will ever be charged with anything. But even if he did, breaking man's law does not necessarily equal sin.
11:02 PM, January 07, 2007
"And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's.
Luke 20:25
It's in context, it's in three Gospel accounts and it's even about taxes...
It's always a sin to break man's law unless that law is in conflict with God's law. After all, God instituted government.
BTW, I have a company credit card and a personal credit card. I know when to use one and when to use the other. It's not hard...
TS
To those who have been here since the CA-poll days:
Everybody: Please beware of "friendly" trolls. Jesus never relied on distraction by "trolls" in his public debates with the Pharisees.
Jesus took a day off every week.
***imho***
Day 8: Genesis 22-24
American English translation ("NIV")
King James
Please pray a Great Commission prayer for today's nation of the day: Argentina
(offline)
Several of you have asked me about what you can do to safe guard your computers at home. There are several good programs out there you can install. The one I use is B-safe.com. Here is the key to all of it. Have an accountability partner who is someone outside your home as the person that gets reports of sites that were attempted to be accessed. They are the one that has the authorization to make changes to the program.
Fathers, this is really meant for you. You must have a person that can hold you accountable. That is so important. I know that is hard to do but if you want to protect your children you MUST have an accountablility partner. That is not too much to ask to protect your children.
I hope this will give parents an additional tool to protect your children. By the way my accountablility partner shares the report with me and my wife. We have dinner once a month with him and his wife. I am his accountability partner. It does work.
Please do everything you can to protect your children. Using a program like B-Safe is not too much ask.
David Brown said...
Several of you have asked me about what you can do to safe guard your computers at home. There are several good programs out there you can install. The one I use is B-safe.com.
Everyone - Check out Bsafe here.
David Brown,
What, if anything, can we do about the ugly emails we are receiving. I assume that you have gotten your share, some of the ones we, especially disturbing to us ladies, are receiving are very disturbing and vile. I have reported mine to yahoo and treated them as spam. Is there anything else we can do? the latest and greatest are from Will at Wrangler8@yahoo.com - anyone know who he is?
graceupongrace: Oh, and as Dr. Gaines even mentioned tonight, accurately, it's impossible to discuss every single thing in an expository unit. Scripture simply says so much. It's not a preacher's job to discuss every single part of an expository unit. Instead he should find one big idea expressed in the expository unit and support it from the Scripture. See again the seminary downloads I linked to in my above post. "
I really hate to keep harping on the sermon but what you wrote here is exactly why PDL has gained so much momentum. The same for emergent, and GCM. It is almost impossible to exposit scripture and teach incorrect doctrine.
Personally, I thought the sermon was dangerous doctrinally. It left out very important parts of the scriptures he quoted from. Parts that would change the meaning he used it for.
My goal is that people will read all scripture in context at all times. There is so much to be learned. Tim has already explained how Phil was misused. I showed 2 examples from Micah and Jeremiah. There were many others that could have been shown.
Gaines would have more credibility if he had followed scripture (1 Corin) with the PW scandal. He was also ignoring Titus and other very clear scripture. This is a warning sign.
Everything else, the credit cards, the fence, etc., etc., is just heaping onto what looks like someone who is not following scripture. (let us have no appearence of wrong doing)
With that said, I would check every single thing he teaches. Paul commended the Bereans for doing this and so should your pastor.
BTW: Your point about Spurgeon was true. However, he preached often about the downgrade and correct doctrine.
graceupongrace.
One last thing, thanks for the link to the seminary. One huge problem in seminaries across the USA right now is the focus on training pastors in GCM instead of scripture. Not all, but many are going that direction. Can you imagine Jonathan Edwards offering a course on CGM at Princeton?
Numbers and growth have become the name of the game. Using the example of what seminarians are doing is not exactly credible to me anymore.
Several weeks ago I began a post on Café Kudzu with the following:
"All Christians must remember we are to conduct ourselves, even amidst tremendous turmoil, in accordance with the mandates of Scripture. Sadly, over the last few days both sides of the Bellevue Baptist Church conflict have sunk to new lows. Ad hominem attacks and vitriol have become the norm. I understand the passion, but I am saddened by our seeming inability to maintain a high level of discourse."
That paragraph preceded a letter from John Newton, the great hymn writer, to another minister on the subject of Christian disputation. He wisely and elegantly instructed his fellow minister on how to maintain his integrity while disagreeing with a Christian brother. This blog has once again deteriorated and I believe everyone who posts here should read what Mr. Newton had to say. I have moved his letter to the featured position on my site for anyone interested in reading it.
I have tried to remain above the fray, avoiding name calling and petty arguments. Since I’m mere flesh I don’t always succeed. If at any time I have given offense, please accept my apology. Please do not base your view of me on my weaker moments (of which there are plenty).
No one can doubt Bellevue has legitimate issues and areas of concern. However, none of you, including our pastor, is my enemy. My goal today in addressing these matters is the same as it has been from day one: to seek the truth and stand for righteousness. I do not wish to tear anyone down or ruin anyone’s life. God is sovereign. It is not my job to impose my will on Him, so I believe it is improper to try to force an outcome. I believe all Christians’ duty is to be obedient to the Word and to act in accordance with the leading of the Holy Spirit. The outcome and consequences of that obedience are in His hands, not ours.
For those who, for whatever reason, may seek to suppress the truth, please understand I will continue to seek to expose the truth. If you twist the truth or hide the truth, it will eventually be known. I have taken this stand because I believe Scripture demands this of me.
For those who believe as I do that there are legitimate concerns that must be addressed, your fight is not with flesh and blood. And please remember, the results are in His hands. I have a friend in ministry who was personally mentored by Dr. Bill Bright. My friend often recounts the observation Dr. Bright made when he faced a serious challenge to his ministry. Dr. Bright said he had never seen a man mightily used of God who had not been through refining fire. Perhaps our pastor is being refined right now so he be can used in a larger way. Since I am not privy to the mind of God and His divine council, I don’t know what His purpose is in all of this. I know He does have a purpose, but it may not be revealed this side of eternity. Thankfully all I have to do is be obedient.
WTB
Excellent post!!! We would all do well to keep this in mind BEFORE we respond to anything on this blog.
Ask yourself "Will this bring Honor and Glory to Jesus Christ?" If the answer is no, don't do it.
If we would ask this question before we post we would no doubt keep this on a higher plane.
Dear MOM: Yes I have had my share of vile email and even some that have bordered on criminal threats. I have had my share of "private" phone call threats too and they too are being tracked. I am a legal investigator so I know what I am talking about. With regards to those emails and phone calls that are on the edge, I have reported them to the D.A.
I might point out to those that send them, they are foolish in thinking they can not be traced. When they send an email they expose their IP address. It is very easy to trace who they are. Just a warning to those that do, they could face prosecution.
But reporting them to people like yahoo, aol, etc. is the simplest way to deal with them.
But I am not concerned. I stand on the Word of God. I know what I have said about protecting children and helping victims is right. I will never apologize for erring on the side of children, NEVER.
If someone has issue of that, then they have much more problems, than David Brown.
Lastly let me assure all that no one can do any more harm to me than what that priest did to me on that October, Sunday afternoon in 1961. I mean that.
In regards to yucky e-mails - the easiest way to avoid inappropriate content is to simply delete any e-mail from a name you don't recognize. This will also help you avoid yucky pop up adds and viruses by reducing the number of cookies and other tags that web sites attach to your computer.
I don't own any special software to protect against gross content but this method has always worked for me and I get very, very little filthy content on my computer.
westtnbarrister...
I enjoyed your post immensely and agree with most of what you say. However, we are upon occassion presented with bad situations within the church which arise that must be dealth with. The Bible tells us to be watchmen. When we happen upon ugly truths within the Body of Christ, how do you recommend we deal with them within the realms of integrity? To be explicit, I am not speaking about those situations involving the color of the carpet per say, but situations of finding that lies are being told from within the leadership including the pastor with intent to do harm to the member/membership/church. This is what is happening in our churches. The leadership will tell a lie for the sole purpose of knowing that if you repeat it, nobody is going to believe you, but will believe the leadership. This is done for sole intent of wrecking havoc on your credibility. How do you handle finding out about these types of ugly truths with dignity? And how would you handle a counter attack that turns the tables on you and names you as the liar? Please understand I am asking these things of you in earnest...with the utmose sincerity.
Lindon...please feel free to jump in here.
As a victim of this insideous PD movement myself, I totally understand how it feels to be standing alone and knowing nobody believes you. It is a lonesome place to be.
May God bless you and continue to strengthen you in His wisdom.
Lindon said "Numbers and growth have become the name of the game."
Right! I love the coined phrase, "Nickels and noses." :)
The post about Donna Gaines is inappropriate and should be removed.
4545,
For once I absolutely agree with you and just took care of it!
NBBCOF
Thanks!
Note the name differences:
Blessmewiththetruth
Blessnewiththetruth
Folks, we've got trolls. Please do not respond!
NBBCOF
New BBC Open Forum said...
"Note the name differences:
Blessmewiththetruth
Blessnewiththetruth
Folks, we've got trolls. Please do not respond!"
Oh my NBBCOF! Same color as deceit!
ima,
We've seen it before, and they even threatened to change just a letter or two in the screen name to throw people off. So carefully read the screen name before responding. In fact, check the profile. If the name is familiar (or exactly the same but the message sounds out of character) and the profile view number is low, it could be an imposter. I've no doubt "blessne" is someone on the "pro-SG side" who is trying to make "us" look bad. Don't fall into their traps!
Let me remind everyone with legitimate concerns to really think about the tone you use and not to throw out unfounded accusations or suppositions not based on fact. If you're angry when you write something, take the time to cool off before you publish it. It'll be much easier to separate the wheat from the chaff that way if you'll maintain a civil, respectful tone regardless of your opinions.
NBBCOF
memphis
I also read a post or two casting a negative light on Beth Moore, I think for supposedly promoting contemplative prayer (a christian version of transcendental meditation).
I can't speak about the details but obviously not everybody who comments here agrees on EVERYTHING.
Diverse opinions are being shared.
If you get emails that you think are threats to safety, it can be a very emotional situation for you and you may find yourself unsure what to do. Here is a biblical quick reference for you.
Step one: Forgive 100% the person(s) who sent the emails. Jesus died for that person's sin.
Step two: Give it to the police. This is the law in our country, and Jesus has said it honors him to follow laws that are consistent with the Bibe.
Step three: Forget about it. The police may never contact you again because they are busy. Trust them. Don't look over your shoulder. No matter what **might** happen, you belong to Jesus.
Step four: If the police actually catch someone or need more info, look for an opportunity to witness or disciple. Perhaps the police officer, suspect, or someone else you meet will need a word from God.
Peace be with you,
Bible-in-a-year.
Good advice, NBBCOF.
Everybody be sure and read the 2:40 post - tone is so important, especially on a blog where we can't see each others faces and hear each other's voices!
We all tend to play by different rules online because it's harder to say some of these things to someone's face than to your computer screen.
typo.
"Bibe." = "Bible"
truthsleuth,
"It's always a sin to break man's law unless that law is in conflict with God's law. After all, God instituted government."
Sorry, I'm still going to have to disagree with you here. It's not always a sin to break man's law. It's always a sin to DISOBEY the law, but if you don't know the law to begin with, you're not intentionally breaking it. There is also a distinction between negligence and ignorance. Negligence would be wrong.
lindon,
"I really hate to keep harping on the sermon but what you wrote here is exactly why PDL has gained so much momentum. The same for emergent, and GCM. It is almost impossible to exposit scripture and teach incorrect doctrine. "
Again, I'm certain I'm right here. Go to a good Christian bookstore sometime and go look at the commentaries. Some of the Romans commentaries are thousands of pages. There is simply so much depth and information in Scriptures that it's impossible to cover it all in Scripture. Man has not even discovered all the depths of knowledge in Scripture!
As someone who disagrees with Dr. Rogers and Dr. Gaines on many theological issues I'm not one to blindly accept everything they say. I am always searching the Scriptures to see if what I hear is true. When I hear something I don't agree with Dr. Gaines about, I'll say it, and there have been times. But I have searched the Scriptures and I strongly believe Dr. Gaines gave an excellent word from God on Sunday.
lindon also said,
"One last thing, thanks for the link to the seminary. One huge problem in seminaries across the USA right now is the focus on training pastors in GCM instead of scripture. Not all, but many are going that direction. Can you imagine Jonathan Edwards offering a course on CGM at Princeton?
"Numbers and growth have become the name of the game. Using the example of what seminarians are doing is not exactly credible to me anymore."
You're certainly not going to find church growth stuff at Covenant, as it is in the same theological tradition as Jonathan Edwards, as you noted. Church discipline, etc., is not exactly in the PDL playbooks.
Good points Grace
Everyone please be aware that trolls sometimes "switch sides."
They just like to cause confusion and don't care about love or truth.
I've watched discourse like this for six years at the Muslim discussion board where I was doing apologetics/Bible Studies,etc.
And the Usenet/newgroups have seen this stuff for decades.
These tactics are 15-20 years old.
The answer is to take a break every week and to read the Bible every day. If we're all doing that trolls can do nothing to us.
Whether you are "pro-Gaines" or "not pro-Gaines," be careful about unknowingly defending trolls that are simply "appearing" to agree with your "side."
I've seen trolls here make "pro-Gaines" statements.
I've seen trolls here make "anti-Gaines" statements.
Sheep: stay away from the trolls, even if they say things you like to hear.
Finally: always be ready for someone who decides to stop being a troll and tries to actually participate in respectful Christian dialog. That is what we want to happen.
Submitted in my humble opinion,
Bible-in-a-year.
Lindon said...
Would being a pedophile or even harboring one, take someone out of the running, too?
Mr. Williams has confessed to committing a crime, and is being dealt with.
And since "harboring" has a specific legal definition, I'd suggest you hold off using it until the investigations are complete.
I guess being called a Nazi kind of pales next to this, wouldn’t you agree?
I try not to rank sins, since we are informed by Scripture that God does not do so. However, I would suggest that the repercussions of bitterness are, in their own way, as debilitating as the repercussions of sexual abuse.
And I still await, and lobby for, a business meeting.
--Mike
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