Please continue your discussion from the previous thread here.
An interim report from Bellevue's "personnel committee" is now available here.
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- New BBC Open Forum
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530 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 530 of 530Ez,
I always understood the temple rebuilding to be a literal thing and I think it will be literal but that doesn't mean it can't have a spiritual context as well.
AOG,
You do know I don't think you are old, right? You have to be at least 80 before I even start thinking that way. I have a lot of older friends and clients.
Di
Di,
Depends on if you're dispensational or covenantal..I would imagine that she's dispensational...I'm of the covenental persuasion.
truthsleuth wrote:
"And, "Friend of God" causes a check in my spirit for some reason."
Mine, too. Glad it's not "just me." Apparently it affects others the same way, too. I came across this several months ago:
From comment #92 here I quote:
"Well, I'm no theologian, it just seems like a song that a kindergardner would sing. It makes God seem like our pal Jake that we hang out with at McDonald's.
"I don't think God views us that way, nor do I think we should view God that way."
MJM wrote:
"Or maybe a "special thread" here on the blog where we all post our favorite hymns? Whaddya say, Madame Moderator?"
Excellent idea. I'll work on it. Thanks!
NBBCOF
AOG,
You are welcome.
I have undergone a true revolution in my heart and because of what God has done for me and to me, sometimes I am misunderstood in the things that I shared with you there.
I am still grounded in the deepest way in the theology I learned at MABTS and other places, but the methodology is what I fear has gotten off track if that makes sense. I won't distract any longer about that on here, so I don't get my hand slapped, but I hope you understand where I have been, am coming from and where I am.
When you have time let me know your thoughts and "sharpen" me a little with your insights on that.
As I said earlier I will be heading up to a retreat with the leaders from other SE Asia countries in our organization on Monday morning, but I would welcome hearing from you.
Oh, so I am in the discussion here a little. Didn't Jesus say, "I no longer call you servants, now you are my friends."?
Di,
If you want to see my view on that...check out the Dispensationalism thread on the sbdiscussionforum.
kingdom,
I'm assuming you mean "sharpen" concerning methodology?
heardenuf,
Piglet is right about everything in that post. She either knows something or is extremely discerning or maybe both. When I worked in SS, I started hearing 6 years ago that SG was coming. What would you think? I'm sorry if you think it is a conspiracy theory. I've been hearing it for years and it reeked of someone who was planning something. Couple that with his comments about plucking and tearing over at West Jackson and it just makes sense to some of us. Also we have discussed how he didn't try to contact Dr. Rogers at all until he was so ill and in the hospital. I guess you don't believe that either. Keep your head in the sand with the others. Some of us have jumped off our fence.
Respectfully,
Diana
AOG,
I around just to answer you back, for right now, the saints (N.O., not the saints of GOD) need my support right now....
I didn't get your mail...but I hear yall all say how slow yall mail is on here, so no big deal... I look forward though to gettin it, cause I dont get much mail, 'cept from people from London sayin I won the lottery and people from Nigeria sayin they want to give me 50 million dollars I'll look for it tomorrow bro. much peace and grace
jake
AOG,
I think I tried to read that thread. I told you that you guys are way over my head. I'm just a little youngster after all. hee hee
You know you could just try to bring it down to my level. That is okay Ez answered me and that is good enough for me!
I think I'm out for tonight. Bless all you guys and ladies.
I would be interested in hearing from some teens who are reading or posting. You don't have to say anything on here - just email me at turtle2500@netzero.net. I will keep whatever you say between us! I work with teens sometimes and I'm just very interested in how you are dealing with all this.
Diana
truthsleuth said:
MJM,
"Thanks for teaching us. That's great stuff!"
Response: My only question is: What hymns did Jesus and his followers sing?
"I once had a pastor who taught that of the three elements of music, the rhythm or beat appeals to the flesh, the harmony appeals to the soul (or emotions), and the melody, which carries the words, appeals to the spirit. I think that, new or old, music intended to worship and bring glory to God needs to speak to the spirit more than the flesh or emotions."
Response:
This sounds very strange to me as I am not a music person, but I guess that's why people believe Elvis was bad because he shook his hips to the rhythm of the beat. I believe that Jimmy Swaggart said the same thing about Amy Grant, or at least I thing it was Swaggart.
"And, "Friend of God" causes a check in my spirit for some reason. I don't know why."
Response: I don't really like this one either as I see God as Holy and it is hard to equate Him as a friend, but I don't think you can deny that the Bible says that God has called us friend in spite of how we feel about that.
"MJM, is it just me or have you noticed some strange harmonies in some of the old hymns we are singing? "Come Thou Fount" last week, for example."
Response: Is this just preference or something deeper like the rhythm thing? Again, did the early church sing these hymns?
If you have any more musical lore to impart I'm all ears!
AOG,
I don't know which one I am but I can't pronounce one of them so that is a problem. I'm probably whatever Spradlin is because I've spent a lot of time in his prophecy classes and I usually agree with him. I don't remember him discussing it but my memory is that of a senior citizen.
I really can't get into the Contemporary music much either myself. I remember one day when I first joined Bellevue, before sunday school class, there was some singing beforehand of "worship" music....one of the songs wasn't a worship song...it was a re-worded EAGLES song. I recognized the song because I listen to classic rock music at work.
Diana,
I'm 26. Will that work? :)
Yeah Koragg,
I'm Fayette Co. too! Although I think I'm on the opposite end from you. Email me sometime!
Di
Ya'll remember the old green Baptist Hymnal? I still cry when I hear or sing (not just because of my singing), "The Old Rugged Cross". I think I still remember the page number even.
One of my daughters gave me a cd recently with Alan Jackson singing a bunch of hymns from that hymnal in his living room. It really took me back and reminded me of some good times.
Few songs today will be sung 50 years from now. Though, some like "How Deep the Father's Love For Us" have a hymn-like feel to them.
diana hart said:
heardenuf,
"Piglet is right about everything in that post. She either knows something or is extremely discerning or maybe both. When I worked in SS, I started hearing 6 years ago that SG was coming. What would you think?"
Response: I would think that people were looking forward to him coming as he was then thought of by many as a Godly man who could follow Dr. Rogers. But, I still don't see how Steve Gaines made all of that discussion possible since he was in Gardendale at the time. I wonder if you think that Steve's scheme included Dr. Rogers asking him to come speak at Bellevue several times through the year and if Steve was good enough to convince the Holy Spirit to tell Dr. Rogers to wash his feet and pass the mantle to him before us all.
"I'm sorry if you think it is a conspiracy theory." I've been hearing it for years and it reeked of someone who was planning something."
Response: I do think it is a conspiracy theory as there is no way, other than through speculation, that it can be believed. Just because it "reeked of someone who was planning something" automatically leads you to believe that Steve is that someone? Why not Dr. Rogers planning who would be his successor. I wouldn't believe that one either. I really think many here think too much into things and should seek God for verification of their "checks" not this blog.
"Couple that with his comments about plucking and tearing over at West Jackson and it just makes sense to some of us."
What? I believe Steve said that while at Gardendale. Hmmm, that makes sense. Maybe Steve's plan was just to take over Gardendale and he just was better than he thought by landing the Bellevue job. I know that sounds very sarcastic, but I hope you understand that that is how many here come across to those of us who do not buy into the conspiracy theories.
"Also we have discussed how he didn't try to contact Dr. Rogers at all until he was so ill and in the hospital. I guess you don't believe that either. Keep your head in the sand with the others. Some of us have jumped off our fence. "
Response: Just because you have discussed it does not make it so and no, I don't believe that. Regardless, I would be careful using fence and jump in the same sentence. (That's meant to be a joke!)
Respectfully,
Diana
AOG,
Let me rethink that comment. Apparently he was discussing it but I don't remember him calling it that. I don't remember that term at all. I'm taking Beth Moore's Daniel class right now - probably the last for me since she's now on the contemplative bandwagon but she has been discussing it some. Maybe I'll figure it all out for myself one of these days. I got back on your site and as I thought I had no idea what any of you were talking about.
Ez,
I have been on quite a journey over the last decade in regards to that. Sometime, if you want, jump over to AOG's site and look at my comment there regarding what many of us are seeing in regards to that. I shared a little of my testimony there that has brought me to this my views of ecclesiology.
Di,
LOL...just keep reading and studying...whether you ever see it the way I do isn't the issue...just make sure what you believe is based on the scriptures and not tradition or what your favorite preacher says.
piglet said:
"I'm so ashamed of our church right now, that I didn't even tell our new neighbor we were members, much less ask them to church."
Response:
The Great Commission is still the Great Commission regardless if you believe Steve is leading the "wrecking crew". Please don't let anyone stop you from discussing the church with anyone.Find a church you're happy with and ask them there.
I personally see this as an opportunity to tell people around me that I am a Bellevue member. If they say bad things, I simply remind them that I am following the Lord, not a man. (This works well with the Paul Williams story too)
ez,
Kingdom is referring to my personal blog..not the sbdiscussionforum...the url is: http://www.rfmd92.blogspot.com
Diana, you have mail :)
piglet said:
Memphis
"Mark asked if he could bring his issue before the deacon body and was told he was no longer a deacon. "
Response:
Sorry to be late on this as I have been away all day, but is this a true statement or does it just need clarification? I was told that Mark resigned his position as adeacon/BSF teacher?Insurance committee chair long before he asked to bring this before the deacon body.It was then said that since he was no longer a deacon, he would not be allowed to address the deacon body. There is a difference.
I am sorry that posted twice. I don't know why and I don't have a trash can to get rid of one.
AOG,
I always opened to being sharpened in any area. I've learned to be "sharpeneable" :)
AOG,
How many blogs can one man have?????
heardenuf,
He was told he was no longer a deacon.
Di,
Haha...I have one personal blog...mostly only interesting to those who know me personally...then the discussionforum..I've had my personal blog over a year..the forum just a few months.
heardenuf,
It appears that you would dearly love for others to stoop to your level of discussion. I for one refuse to do so.
To reply to an observation that you had made concerning unity apart from truth. I am glad that you brought it up. Satan has a counterfeit for everything, unity apart from truth is a wonderful example. Satan would far rather that we be unified in error, than divided by truth.
I can say beyond any doubt that you haven't heard anything yet, but strap yourself in because you will. Not tonight and not on the blog, but you can believe that you will hear very soon.
Integrity does count. And you count on me to stand for integrity.
kingdom,
that's why i started the discussion forum..."iron sharpens iron"...I just asked cuz it looked like that's what you were referring to in your comment...methodology is something I feel strongly about, as I'm sure you've gathered :)
AOG,
Yeah, me too. It began as a biblical conviction, but the practice and reality of what I now know only confirmed it to me. There is something that must change.
Did you see my earlier question to you (and others) about Dr Blackaby? I think it was before I went to bed last night so would have been late morning or early afternoon there.
It all relates, I think, to what is happening within BBC and the church at large. I have so many friends, at least two in leadership there, who I know are really seeking the Father's face here in this.
heardnuf
Piglet said:
When liberalism infiltrated the SBC like termites, Dr.Rogers set about to stop that from happening. I'm sure, at the time, folks thought he was a troublemaker. Why couldn't he just get along with everyone?"
Heardenuf said:
Once again this is a poor analogy. Steve has been accused of "Warrenism", "illegal activity" etc. but I don't think he has ever been accused of not believing that the Bible is inerrant. Comparing apples to oranges does not bode well for getting your point across.
Piglet's response:
Let's just overlook all these illegal activities for a second. Regardless of what Steve believes, he's not living it. He is not being a shepherd, he is ignoring Matt. 18, he believes - and has stated - that he is accountable to no one. Bellevue looks NOTHING like what God made it under Dr. Rogers.
Not to mention all those numbers and statistics that are so precious to him are DOWN.
Why is this happening to our church? Could it have SOMETHING to do with the new pastor and all his "oopsies" - some of which he's apologiised for,some he hasn't, many he's hoping people like YOU never find out about?
(Piglet taking deep breaths....)
Piglet said:
"What a sweet deal for Steve Gaines"
Heardenuf said:
Response: I guess many of you really do believe that Steve has some grand scheme that he has been planning for years. That plan included uprooting his family from the home they have known for 14 years. Also, advancing from church to church in order to catch the eye of Bellevue when Dr. Rogers retired. That seems like quite a well made plan since it worked. I hope you see why many have a hard time listening to you as it just seems to be such a stretch for a lot of us.I don't know if that is just exaggeration on your part or if you honestly believe it. It is hard to tell.
Piglet's response:
I haven't stated that I believe this to be a plan several years old. But now that he's here I think there's a plan. I believe he will be overjoyed to be rid of us. What would that leave?
1) Those who don't mind an elder led government.
2) Those whose philosophy is "support the pastor no matter what an idi...inept leader he is"
3) Those who are new to BBC and cannot compare him to the spirit-filled godly pastor we once had.
4) The rich powerful few who can protect him and benefit, as he does, from the unlimited power the members give them
5) New christians who don't have enough discernment to be a roadblock on his highway to greatness.
And as to his uprooting his family - people do it every day, and for FAR leass MONEY and POWER.
Don't kid yourself. This guy is like a Walmart cashier that just stepped into Sam Walton's old job.
And leave? If a masked man broke through your window, would you give him the keys to your house or fight him until the police arrive?
Diana Hart said:
Heardenuf,
"First, I know the comments were made when he was at Gardendale but I think he was referring back to an earlier time which would have been W. Jackson. I may be wrong about that and if someone who knows what they are talking about corrects me I will apologize for it. No matter really he was plucking and tearing down something as his own words said. I think you might find some Gardendale people and W. Jackson people who would agree that he came in and took over. It took W. Jackson 3 years to get rid of him. How long will it take BBC?"
Response: Well, I still don't see how his comments can go toward some grand scheme to take over Bellevue. That's all I'm saying.
"I don't see how Steve made all the discussion possible either except that I kept hearing it."
Response: And that is the main reason I post here now. Just because you here it does not make it so. Therefore, it is dangerous to make a statement based on hearsay. In particular in this forum, there are people who will read hearsay and take it as truth. I hope that we will all be careful in taking things that we have heard, but have no basis in fact and then pass them on in such a manner that it appears to be fact.
"His in- laws were members (and still are) and apparently they were the ones continually discussing it."
Response: Once again I caution you to post statements that include the words "apparently". If I do not hear something first hand myself I am not going to post it. It then becomes gossip. By the way, I don't think the Dodd's, being Godly people, would support such a scheme.
" I think he only preached once a year for nine years - not several times a year. "
Response: Another problem with this forum, I did not say several times a year, I said " I wonder if you think that Steve's scheme included Dr. Rogers asking him to come speak at Bellevue several times through the year ". It is my error that I did not include an s at the end of the year, but as you can see, even when you mean well, if you can't spell or don't proofread, words on a blog can mean different things based on how they are read. I apologize for leaving off the s, but please try to quote things said.
"Most people I talked to couldn't even remember him ever preaching. "
Response: Most people I know, do recall him preaching and we even spoke years ago of the "possibilty" of him following Dr. Rogers one day...if the Holy Spirit brought him here.
"I remembered him for some very specific reasons that I will not go into because those comments will be trashed as well."
Response: I don't think holding words accountable should be considered as trashing. I am merely pointing out those statements that are not factual, but only what people "think/believe/have heard etc."
"As I said, keep your head firmly in the sand. Some of us have eyes and ears open. I said I was getting off and now I am. If anyone wants to have a meaningful conversation, they know where to find me. Sorry this sounds so rude. I will probably regret all this later."
Di
Response: No offense taken. I try not to post anything that I would not say to someone's face, but that does not mean that they will not be considered rude by some.
I thought we were having a meaningful conversation. I just have "heardenuf" things that people post without being able to back them up with facts.
kingdom,
I'll send you an email about Blackaby...I don't want to start any fights on here :)..but you're right..something's got to give.
ezekiel, there will be a 3RD temple built. It is under way as we
speak. I love prophecy, so I keep
up with what is happening in this area.
diana hart, do you listen to the Gathier's? They,re great, on every Sat. night. WKNO
piglet, love that name, I considered using pooh for my name. You are right on about who's tearing down the church.
God bless,
My last thoughts on "Friend of God"
It's the up tempo, in your face way the words are sung that trivializes the seriousness, even the joy of that special relationship with the Savior. For me, it's hard to have a worshipful attitude when singing that song, especially given the active leading and exhortation from the platform. A song on the same subject, "What A Friend We Have in Jesus," fills me with awe and reverence that the Creator of the universe cares enough for me to allow me to be His friend. In other words, it points me to Jesus. "Friend of God" does not.
TS
AOG,
That post was at 9:02 am there.
heardenuf,
I deleted my comments after Tim said people were stooping to your level. I respect Tim and if he thinks I'm stooping I will delete. However now you have basically reposted the whole thing. I have read it and would really appreciate it if you would delete yours as well. I don't want anyone to think I am acting in an ungodly fasion. Thanks in advance.
Diana
kingdom,
Yes I saw it...just hadn't responded to it.. I worked today...so I haven't caught up on everything yet.
diana hart,
I saw nothing at all inflamatory in your original post. Honestly, I am glad that it was included in the response. It needed to be there.
My comments concerning maintaining civility were directed toward myself more than anyone else.
concerned,
I do listen to the Gaithers sometimes. I used to not care for them because I'm not into southern gospel that much however I started after the music changed at BBC. All the sudden southern gospel sounded really good to me. I think it is funny when they are all sitting around singing like they are in their family room at home.
AOG,
I wish you would email me the same thing about Blackaby. I never took that study but am very interested in what you think about it or him.
truthslueth,
Friend of Blogs ? Oh sorry misread that...but it would be easier to sing that way.
AOG,
As they say over here - Mai Pen Rai - which means, "No Problem". It is sorta their philosophy of life in Thailand.
Tim,
LOL...
G'night all
(offline)
Di,
I'll send that..might be a day or two..I've got a busy day tomorrow..but I'll get to it.
AOG,
If you have issues with Blackaby, you aren't the only one. He is a fine godly man, but his theology is suspect.
Tim,
Well, it is still somewhat there under heardenuf! ha ha I give up, you know what I mean? I think you do.
TS,
I think I was really rude to you last night and I need to apologize to you as well. I think you have gotten over it but just in case..... Great thoughts on Friend of God and What a friend we have in Jesus.
This little pig is counting to 10.
I'm not mad at you, heardenuf. I'm terribly angry about what is happening to my beloved Bellevue.
Diana Hart has already left as many others are doing. ( Not upset with you, Diana).
Admit it. You did NOT even know that Mark lost his deacon title over QUESTIONING the pastor. This goes back to May and June of last year. It's OLD news. This was brought up by Mark in the CC meeting and no one could explain why he was no longer qualified to be a deacon. This is how Gaines reacts to those who question his ULTIMATE authority.
Imagine how much else you don't know or refuse to believe.
"According to the scripture he was using to pluck up and tear down the body of Christ, he was ignoring the fact that it was GOD who was doing the plucking up and tearing down, not man."
Amen...I've tried to make that point a couple of times, but it gets ignored...thanks for bringing that to the forefront.
Hey br,
Feel free to jump in anytime! Thanks for that info. Hadn't heard Mrs. Rogers wasn't allowed to address the congregation. Didn't even know she wanted to.
If heardenuf has any compassion on me at all he/she will delete as I asked. You can always repost your comments and leave mine out. Thank you very much.
WTB,
Yea I know...He's a good man..but I had problems with Experiencing God.
I know, piglet. Some are called to stay and fight. Some are called to fight from afar. I will continue to fight from where I am. Just call it multitasking! ha ha
Seriously going to bed. Hubby is getting upset with me. Tomorrow is a big day!
Blessings to all of you! Much love.
Diana,
No offense taken. I appreciate your candor and your concern.
heardenuf,
Mark Sharpe was not active last year. He should have rotated back on this year. John Caldwell and company refused to do so. This was after SG told Sharpe, "You are not a deacon." Make of it what you will. That's the way it went down.
'night...
Diana hart said:
heardenuf,
"I deleted my comments after Tim said people were stooping to your level."
Response: What level is that? Is it too much to ask people to only post what they know for fact and not everything they think or believe? If more people would "stoop to my level" then there would be less speculation/innuendo/insinuation etc. and maybe, just maybe, people would listen to each other. It is hard to listen to someone who perpetuates rumors and theories without stating fact.
"and if he thinks I'm stooping I will delete. However now you have basically reposted the whole thing. I have read it and would really appreciate it if you would delete yours as well. I don't want anyone to think I am acting in an ungodly fasion. Thanks in advance."
Reponse: I can't control what people think . Your words are your words and unfortunately, my words are my words and that is really why I started posting in the first place. There are too many people posting things that can be read and misconstrued or even passed on without so much as a blink of an eye. I don't think that is fair and I just want to show the other side.
I would like to see quotes of what I said that shows my level of stooping.
just a question, but I though MD told Sharp he was not a deacon. Am I wrong?
"This was after SG told Sharpe, "You are not a deacon."
kingdomrevolution:
On Dr. Henry Blackaby:
http://www.svchapel.org/Resources/BookReviews/book_reviews.asp?ID=300
AOG,
I suspect we have the same problems with Experiencing God.
heardenuf,
You "believe"..or you know?..keep to the standard you expect from everyone else.
br
Gaines won't share the limelight with anyone.
WTB,
I would suspect so brother.
HerdEnuf,
I would like to see quotes of what I said that shows my level of stooping.
Please claim that I stoop low all the time and I have asked for quotes but nobody has been able to produce any....I wonder why. Hmm.. I am going to guess that they won't find any quotes from you either (within context).
Just a quick comment on the music....speaking of the ad-naseum chorus "Friend of God", my dad's friend has a term for these choruses. He calls them "7-11 songs" - they have 7 words and you sing them 11 times. Hehe.
I view the majority of them as the musical equivalent of Happy Meal toys. Cheap pieces of junk made in China that wear out after a few uses, get broken and are only fit for the trash can.
Some are good, but most most are not worthy of the music they have replaced.
br
I know Mark personally. I heard it from him and also sat in the CC meeting when he asked why he was not rotated back on.
Heardenuf, check it out.
ed_t,
LOL...happy meal toys.
diana hart said:
"If heardenuf has any compassion on me at all he/she will delete as I asked. You can always repost your comments and leave mine out. Thank you very much."
Rsponse:
I don't think you said anything bad, I just disagree. I don't understand what it was that you want deleted. It's only your opinion and I don't think anyone can hold what you think to be true against you. I don't, I just want to offer the other side and get people to thinking about what they say before they say it.
How do you delete anyway...for future reference. ;)
Ed,
....speaking of the ad-naseum chorus "Friend of God", my dad's friend has a term for these choruses. He calls them "7-11 songs" - they have 7 words...
I Am A Friend Of God....
Looks like 6 words to me. (kidding of course...)
I view the majority of them as the musical equivalent of Happy Meal toys. Cheap pieces of junk made in China that wear out after a few uses, get broken and are only fit for the trash can.
I find this statement highly offensive. I find that I can truly worship with God with some of the songs you're posting about. Who are you to judge what is fit for the trash and not? It is about glorifying God (in other words: it's not about YOU) through me when I sing it...but if you don't like it, then don't sing it. You are in no position to call it trash.
I know for sure it was MD who told Mark Sharpe he was no longer a deacon.
I prefer more traditional music myself- old hymns and piano or organ. But the fact is this- if the music is being played and sung to honor God, it is good enough for me.
music is just music. It is all about what is in your heart when you sing it.
EZ
Did you join under Dr. Gaine?
truthsleuth said:
heardenuf,
Mark Sharpe was not active last year. He should have rotated back on this year. John Caldwell and company refused to do so. This was after SG told Sharpe, "You are not a deacon." Make of it what you will. That's the way it went down.
Response: Well, the day he resigned from everything I received a call... wait that would be hearsay. :) I won't go any further, I'll just have to disagree.
ace said...
HerdEnuf,
I would like to see quotes of what I said that shows my level of stooping.
Please claim that I stoop low all the time and I have asked for quotes but nobody has been able to produce any....I wonder why. Hmm.. I am going to guess that they won't find any quotes from you either (within context).
Reply:
Ace,
I believe that the sarcasm of this statement alone speaks for itself and this is exactly what has given you such a bad reputation.
Sarcasm serves many purposes. One it flatters those to whom you are trying to shame. Another is to shame the one that is guilty of producing it. Also, it usually represents the heart from which it is produced.
phil413 said;
"TS,
Actually it was Mark D. that told Mark S. that he was no longer a deacon. That was months before he was to become active again but somehow he never received his letter to do his interview. When asked about this during the last CC meeting nobody had and answer. John Caldwell is the chairman of that committee. My guess is that it was lost in the mail. LOL
Psalm 118:6
David Matlock "
Thank you for that clarification. That sounds a little different than " he was told he was not a deacon." As someone quoted me earlier, "Words mean things" Thanks for that.
phil413,
You have mail.
Phil 4:13,
I thought I heard the man that was standing with Harry Smith at the last CC meeting state that Mark was not requested to come back to active status because he was considered to be causing division in the church. I may be mistaken about who said it, it may have been Steve Tucker, but if there is a tape of that meeting, it is on there.
Unfortunately, they do not know that Mark would have to be brought before the congregation according to Matthew 18 and confronted with the charges and the congregation would have to vote him off as a deacon for any reason. They just think that they can mark his name off and be done with it. I think he would have some kind of legal grounds here.
tim said:
"Please claim that I stoop low all the time and I have asked for quotes but nobody has been able to produce any....I wonder why. Hmm.. I am going to guess that they won't find any quotes from you either (within context)."
Response:
I don't understand what you're saying. Diana said that she was told "not to stoop to my level". I'm just trying to find out how asking for truth and straightforward talk is stooping low. I was taught to say what you mean and mean what you say.
As for me, I can totally see us in Heaven singing "I am a friend of God"!!!
Tim,
I believe that the sarcasm of this statement alone speaks for itself and this is exactly what has given you such a bad reputation.
There was no sarcasm. Nice try, though.
heardenuf said..
"Response: Well, the day he resigned from everything I received a call... wait that would be hearsay. :) I won't go any further, I'll just have to disagree."
If that was a call from Mark Dougharty or Mark Sharpe, it would make a world of difference in the relaying of the truth here.
I didn't care for the changes in the music, or standing for 20 minutes during the service (I think Gaines should have to stand 20 minutes every Sunday in 3 or 4 inch heels and smile about it).
But I had more of a problem with Jaimie's "look at me" performance every week and hearing how he shamed the choir for not being spirit filled enough during practice.
Even at that, I thought Dr. Gaines was okay until I discovered how arrogant he was, and how he mistreated staff, etc.
Change is one thing.
Settling for a mediocre pastor is one thing.
But I cannot tolerate arrogance, greed, and deceit.
memphis,
Somehow I can't see that one making it into heaven.
ace said:
"HerdEnuf,
I would like to see quotes of what I said that shows my level of stooping.
Please claim that I stoop low all the time and I have asked for quotes but nobody has been able to produce any....I wonder why. Hmm.. I am going to guess that they won't find any quotes from you either (within context)."
Response:
Ahhh, now I get it. I'm sorry Tim, I thought those were your words, but they were from ACE. This blog goes much faster than I can type, or read!
I have been trying to put Response: before I type so that people will know it's me talking.
Sorry Tim.
piglet said...
"Change is one thing.
Settling for a mediocre pastor is one thing.
But I cannot tolerate arrogance, greed, and deceit."
AMEN SISTER! I couldn't have said it better myself!
AOG, why not?
Because this present order of things will pass...in Revelation it says the redeemed will sing a new song.
Heardenuf
"He was told he was not a deacon" is what we told you and it is exactly what happened. There IS no difference in these stories.
He asked to bring the issue before the deacons and was told "You are no longer a deacon".
David, would you set this guy straight? Your story and mine are the same!
This is silly!
mom4 said:
heardenuf said..
"Response: Well, the day he resigned from everything I received a call... wait that would be hearsay. :) I won't go any further, I'll just have to disagree."
"If that was a call from Mark Dougharty or Mark Sharpe, it would make a world of difference in the relaying of the truth here."
Response:
That's why I'm not going to post hearsay!I thought the "truth" had already been accepted as posted earlier. My truth is just a different version unfortunately, but since I didn't speak firsthand with Marke Sharpe, I will not fall into the very thing I have protested against!
So then by that reasoning, none of the hymns/songs we know will be sung in Heaven????
Good night all, it's been an education and enjoyed stopping in to chat.
EZ
Just curious. Man, I hate that for you. If I have to leave, atleast I've had almost 25 years under the greatest pastor I've ever heard!
I wish you could have been here when things were different.
I'm so sorry.
Everything on this earth has the taint of sin in it..because of the fall...even heaven itself has a taint from Lucifer's rebellion...that's why there'll be a new heaven and a new earth..everything will be new...and better I might add..."eye hath not seen, nor ear heard..."
heardenuf...
I did speak personally with Mark Sharpe. He did not resign as a deacon. This is from his mouth to my ears from my fingertips to this blog.
Goodnight...again
May I add that if I leave I will either be thrown out or go crawling out battered and bloody.
Unless God tells me different, of course. :/
and btw memphis, that's not reasoning..it's scripture
So when we sing praise to God, or we pray to God, you are saying it is tainted with sin?
I would like to discuss this more, you can email me if you'd like as to not slow down the blog
memphis,
send me an email as a reminder...it might take a day or so, but i'll get to it...email is on my profile.
Thanks, David. =)
If heardenuf still doesn't get it, then it's not our fault.
Goodnight everyone.
phil413 said:
"Heardenuf,
I don't understand your point, Mark S. was told that he was no longer a deacon by Mark D. He was supposed to be active again this year but never received his letter. Harry Smith was asked about the letter at the last CC meeting but as usual he answered "I don't know". If Mark had done something that would prohibit him from serving as a deacon he should have had the chance to explain to the committee that John Caldwell is the chairman of. Once again we see an example of our leadership making up the rules as they go along.
Psalm 118:6
David Matlock
PS WTB, Back at ya "
Response: I don't have a point. Did Marke resign as a BSF teacher and Insurance Committee Chair in April? Was this before or after he met with Steve the first time? It is my understanding that he did after meeting with Steve. Honestly, this is just for clarification. I do not have a point... accept maybe on the top of my head! ;)
piglet said:
"Thanks, David. =)
If heardenuf still doesn't get it, then it's not our fault. "
Response: It's not that I don't "get it", it's just that what I've got differs from what you've got and I am trying to clarify for myself and for those that read.
ez,
yea it is...but we can glean enough from it to get it's message.
piglet said:
"May I add that if I leave I will either be thrown out or go crawling out battered and bloody.
Unless God tells me different, of course. :/ "
Response: Tongue in cheek I trust. I still can't understand why anyone would stay where they felt wrongdoing has occurred and is occurring. I'd be long gone.
And for tonight... I am long gone!
WTB and AOG,
I know this is a little late. The internet went down here for awhile, which is one of the "things" of life in SE Asia.
I wanted to say that I didn't want AOG to take any unwarranted heat over Blackaby. I actually opened that can of worms earlier in a post just looking for other's perspectives.
I have had two opportunities to spend time personally with Dr. Blacakaby and he is without a doubt a godly, humble, man of God - no doubt. And, on the essentials, I believe he is strong. But, I have had some difficulties and struggles with some of the subjectivity inherent in his "Experiencing God" teachings. I once embraced them because of Dr. Blackaby, but since have had some doubts on that aspect.
Not the man or his core beliefs about the essentials. Just want to make that clear.
Sorry this is so late. I hope I am still on when I try to publish.
AOG, email sent
Memphis,
The best prayer I've ever prayed, indeed the most holy minute I've ever lived was tainted with sin. Not a sermon has been preached or a prayer prayed since the fall of man that wasn't tainted with sin (excluding Jesus of course). We don't just commit sins, we are conceived in sin. We are sinners. That is who we are. Our righteousness is as filthy rags.
memphis,
Okees...I'll get that to you in a day or so..just sit tight.
In case anyone hasn't heard..Joel Osteen is now considered the number one most influential Christian in the world. Sheesh...what does that tell you?
westtn, I understand we all have a sinful nature, but is every act we do of sin? I am not sure I buy in to a prayer being sinful.....
iamaresistor,
That link took me to a page that said "page could not be found". It looked like a site for a church called Southern View Chapel. Can I find it somewhere there on the church site?
memphis,
All creation is tainted with sin.
ez,
xactly...narrow is the way..and few there are who find it...broad is the road to destruction..and many are on that road.
kingdom,
I agree with your assessment. I am concerned about the subjectivity in much of evangelicalism today. I have written previously on my thoughts on trusting experiences.
I just read Jim Cymbala's book Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire and I have major problems with it. It isn't all bad and he isn't all bad, but so much of it is off theologically (IMO). And it was a huge seller a few years ago. It influenced countless people. He repeatedly talked about "calling down the Holy Spirit" and "feeling his presence." I hear some at BBC talking about the same things and it always surprises me.
Cymbala also writes a lot about hearing from the Lord in your "inner spirit." He writes "I sensed God speaking". . .I knew I had heard from God" etc. One reviewer said, "That God has communicated audibly, in dreams and visions, through prophets and apostles, we are in agreement, but this "inner voice" is not to be found." A theologian wrote, "the concept of God guiding through promptings, impressions, and insights has no biblical base. [We are being] asked to believe in a form of guidance that can’t even be found in the Bible."
And that is just the beginning of the issues I have with Cymbala. I am concerned about the influence those ideas have on people in the SBC. We are seeing more and more people looking for an experience or a feeling.
ok bros and sis'...this old sinner saved by grace is off to bed. Sleep well saints.
Servant said...
We are working out a schedule with the Department of Child Services to provide us with onsite training for all Pastoral and Children’s Ministry staff.
"Steve Gaines and his bonehead staff have taken another wrong turn. The DCS "onsite trainers" could be anybody, maybe even Muslims or worse."
Response:
Please refrain from the name calling. It only makes your points appear less valid. I would think that DCS "onsite trainers" you refer to are part of the govt. agency and Bellevue is being compliant. I wouldn't think that Bellevue would be allowed by law to ask for the "Christian" DCS "onsight trainers". I'm sure that, knowing what is known about the govt., they are not allowed to discriminate by race/religion etc.
"Do the senior Bellevue staff members have a brain? "
Response: Belittling others does not make your point more viable and it only makes you look smaller in my view.
Memphis,
"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags..." (Isaiah 64:6). I think this means the very acts by which men think to make themselves righteous and somehow worthy of a blessing from God are nothing but filthy, unclean rags in God's sight. Now, if our righteousnesses appear as filthy rags in God's sight, what does this say of those things even we acknowledge to be sinful!
So yes, I do believe even our prayers are tainted by sin.
piglet said:
Piglet
"Jamie Fish, Mark Dougharty, and Steve Gaines all deny that there is a DCS investigation.
Bellevue.org says there IS a DCS investigation.
WHAT ON EARTH IS UP WITH THAT?"
Response:
Ahhhh, I just need to go to bed, but can't let this one pass.
You say that they "deny", when in fact, I think you should have written "denied". Could it be that when they spoke there was no DCS investigation and as of yesterday (4-5 days later) there now is? If they are really as conniving as many here would lead us to believe, do you honestly think they would be so ignorant to lie about something so easily verifiable? From previous comments here, I think I can answer my own question on that.
I agree and got caught up in it myself for a short time. Still hear God get "quoted" as having said something to someone and it bothers me greatly. These are good folks just lead astray in this area asit has become "groupthink" and "groupspeak" even in evangelical life.
These people are not heretics, just confused, often by their own teachers.
Kingdom,
"These people are not heretics, just confused, often by their own teachers."
I think you would agree heretics often teach those concepts. However, not everyone who believes them is a heretic. They are victims of weak theology.
westtnbarrister said...
Memphis,
"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags..." (Isaiah 64:6).
I think this means the very acts by which men think to make themselves righteous and somehow worthy of a blessing from God are nothing but filthy, unclean rags in God's sight. Now, if our righteousnesses appear as filthy rags in God's sight, what does this say of those things even we acknowledge to be sinful!
So yes, I do believe even our prayers are tainted by sin.
Response: I'll jump in on the theological stuff here since I'm still awake! I'm not a Greek scholar, but my understanding is that the Bible says ,"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags..." (Isaiah 64:6). The word as means "likened to or like". So God is comparing our attempt at righteousness to filthy rags in view of his own perfection. I think we can agree on that. In other words, by comparison to God, anything we do pales in comparison to who God is and that is why we need a Savior! Amen to that!
The Bible clearly speaks of we as Christians having (and I paraphrase here)a "righteousness that comes from God" and how God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him w might become the righteousness of God.. I think that's 2 Cor. 5:21, but it's late.
Anyway,I like discussing this better than trying to maintain accountability here!
WTB,
When it doesn't involve the essentials we should be very careful using the label "heretic". I started preaching and teaching God's Word 29 years ago and I shudder sometimes at some of the stupid, and yes, at times erroneous things - but never the essentials.
As you said, this side of glory, all our righteous deeds are tainted with sin. That can be differentiated from heresy, don't you think?
Trying to type with one hand while holding my sleeping grandson, so hope that made sense.
And yes, heretics do sometimes teach those things, but teaching those things doesn't make them a heretic - yes?
Dear Piglet,
I know you have signed off, but I hope you see this tomorrow. Bless your little heart! You have been such a wonderful defender of TRUTH tonight. Everything you have said has been right on target and just plain RIGHT. Add full of spirit to all of that, too, while you're at it. I know it's hard work, too, and you have worked HARD!
Keep up the good work and do "not be weary in well-doing; for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not." Galatians 6:9
Dee
Kingdom,
I am in 100% agreement with you. I was only pointing out that some heretics I know of (in particular one who denies the trinity) teach those concepts. We have to be careful about the word heretic.
Just today I heard a pastor refer to dispensationalism as heresy. I've heard it called "error" but never heresy.
Absolutely, teaching those concepts does not make anyone a heretic.
We are exactly on the same page.
heardenuf,
I enjoy that discussion more myself, which is why I commented on it. I rarely post on the specifics of the BBC saga. It is just too depressing.
The bottom line to that discussion... The Bible says, "If you, LORD, should mark iniquities, ...who could stand?" (Psalm 130:3 NKJV).
The Apostle Paul answered that question: "There is none righteous, no, not one...." (Romans 3:10).
But for the Christian the Bible speaks figuratively about the sin being washed, cleansed, healed, and blotted out. The sin, which is scarlet, may become white as snow, the crimson may become like wool, in God's sight. The sin may be cast into the sea of forgetfulness or purged with hyssop. Our record of sin does not change. We are as guilty as we can be, but through Christ we receive a not guilty verdit. Hence Paul declares, "Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin." AMEN to that!
piglet wrote:
"I didn't care for the changes in the music, or standing for 20 minutes during the service (I think Gaines should have to stand 20 minutes every Sunday in 3 or 4 inch heels and smile about it)."
I agree that's getting really old. But oh, the mental image that conjures up. He'd be 7 feet tall!
"May I add that if I leave I will either be thrown out or go crawling out battered and bloody."
...and still tightly clutching those 3 or 4-inch heels.
heardenuf wrote:
"Did Marke resign as a BSF teacher and Insurance Committee Chair in April? Was this before or after he met with Steve the first time?"
I was just going to state that he did resign from those positions last year, but you beat me to it. However, I'm not certain of the month or the chronology of events.
The glaring question though is what do either of those things have to do with him being a deacon? He didn't resign from being a deacon, and that was the question, not whether he resigned from those other positions. Can we agree he did not resign from being a deacon?
nbbcof said:
"Can we agree he did not resign from being a deacon? "
Without spreading more hearsay...no.
But, I really don't see this as an issue, since I don't think anyone has been allowed to address the deacons for their own purpose. I may be wrong in that. I really just wanted a clarification of the sequence of events so that I could compare it to what I know.
I don't need any more explanation.
Thanks
FOLKS, THERE'S A NEW THREAD IF ANYONE CARES TO MOVE UP AND CONTINUE!
Thank you,
NBBCOF
Ace, you need to reread my comment. I didn't say they were fit for the trash can. I said they're LIKE cheap toys that are used a couple of times, then used up (or tiresome in the case of SOME of them) and only good for the trash can at that point.
I also mentioned that some were good. I enjoy singing some of them, but by their very definition they are "contemporary", meaning they will most likely not be around for the next generation, if even within the next decade. Hymns, however, have connected generations of believers for 200+ years (some of them). Most likely a few generations from now there won't be that connection.
Music styles are not a point of major concern for me, but I do find it a valid matter of debate. I though Dr. Whitmire did a good job of mixing the two.
Would that you were so "offended" over the lack of openness and truth at Bellevue.
I want to know what church member from Gardendale spoke against Bro Steve when he left. I am a former member of that Church and I never heard anything bad said about him. Yes we were all hurt as any church family would be when they lose a long time pastor as we did. But you should not speak for other churches unless you have written proof of actual statements. I also think a church will hurt and go down in numbers and as all you so seem to be worried about about money, if the church does not get behind their pastor and support him. As long as I have know Steve Gaines he has never said he was perfect. And if you are expecting him to be perfect than remember the only perfect one is JESUS! And then you need to take a look at yourself, because you must have something that you need to repent of and then get right with God. It is disturbing that so called Christians sit there and talk about their pastor like you all do. I could not believe it when I was told about this blog today and now that I have seen it and read some of your comments, all I can say is that I will pray hard for all of you. And for my friend Steve Gaines and his family that God will continue His works through Steve.
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