Please continue your discussion from the previous thread here.
An interim report from Bellevue's "personnel committee" is now available here.
And stay tuned...
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- New BBC Open Forum
- This forum was created to provide a place where those who are seriously concerned about the issues facing Bellevue Baptist Church and the SBC can come to comment and exchange ideas. Anonymous comments are welcome, but it is respectfully requested that instead of choosing the "Anonymous" option those who want to post comments without logging in select a unique screen name. This lets everyone tell the difference between one anon and another without revealing any personal information. Under the box where you compose your comment where it says "Choose an identity," just check "Name/URL" and type in the screen name of your choice. You can leave the URL field blank. It would be helpful if you'd use the same screen name for any subsequent comments. This makes reading and following discussions easier, helps avoid confusion, and doesn't result in one person being credited for writing something s/he didn't. Comments by posters whose only purpose is to disrupt (i.e. trolls) will be subject to deletion. Your cooperation will be appreciated.
530 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 530 Newer› Newest»I am surprised that this interim report has not generated much discussion, especially with regards to the reports of church staff denying that there was a DCS investigation. I happened to overhear Steve Gaines this past Sunday evening state that he was unaware of any external investigations as well.
The report really does not give any other information and it would appear that the January 16 report will likely be delayed.
tim,
I took that like most statements that are made (politically speaking i mean)....100% accurate...but not the whole truth.
It's all about semantics these days...it's new-speak..a whole new language.
Tim,
Thanks, I just ignored the first few posts from new iwasthere but I knew after the last one I had to set the record straight.
Ya AoG,
I grew up at Leawood, was in the choir, bus ministry, etc. I find the story of what happened to Mr Ellzey after they got a new Pastor shocking; much like what I can gather regarding your past music director.
I don't mean to demean all christians, but to some its just a business.
trollcrates,
I grew up in mostly Independent Baptist churches...during the height of the fundie movement...I soured on it as a teen.
Piglet
Jamie Fish, Mark Dougharty, and Steve Gaines all deny that there is a DCS investigation.
Bellevue.org says there IS a DCS investigation.
WHAT ON EARTH IS UP WITH THAT?
But y'all (I assume you're a member at BBC?) are fundementalists, no?
eleos,
Just curious, I feel certian that "eleos" is greek, but I don't know what it means.
For some reason every time I see it I picture Tele Savalis. Are you big and bald? :)
It appears as though I'm talking to myself. Isn't that the first sign of insanity?
Where are those trashcans when you need them?
trollcrates,
in the late sixties, early seventies...fundamentalism had some different factions...among the independents, fundamentalism meant...rules and regs...a list of do's and don't's...outward spirituality more than inward reality...law-keeping. A form of bondage in reality.
Piglet, unaware and deny are totally different
trollcates,
It appears that there are far fewer fundamentalist than I would have thought several months ago. It seems that there are a few fundamentalist and a sea of progressive.
I've been a "non-christian" quite some time now--what defines the difference?
Memphis
LOL!
Please say you're kidding.
You're not are you?
fundamentalism in it's original intent, simply meant ..holding to the fundamental truths of the faith.
Nope, while Fish and MD might have denied it, SG said he was unaware, at least according to Tim's post.
AOG
I always believed that I was (and still am) a fundamentalist - just not independent Baptist (aka legalism).
The church I went to added to the scripture and enforced their own law as though there was no Holy Spirit.
Atleast that was my experience.
Trolcates,
A fundamentalist view of Scripture for example is strict interpretation based on the entire counsel of the Word. The Scripture is for all people, of all time, in all places.
A progressive view of Scripture would conisder the general idea conveyed or mood of scripture, open to different interpretations by different people, in different places, living in different times.
piglet,
Right..we're both speaking of T'haven...that's the faction of the fundie movement I was speaking to trollcrates about.
Yeah, but that's a lot of words that don't say much--what it used to mean is that the Bible is the inerrant and sole scripture ordained of God, the virgin birth, the exclusivity of the christian path, etc. In my book, if that's the playbook, it's still fundementalism.
Memphis
SG seems to be unaware of alot of things...
Something smells rotten in Denmark.
Something smells rotten in Denmark.
like the restaraunt budget huh?
the movement's beginnings are referred to as the fundamentalist/modernist controversy...the modernists were heavily influenced by German higher criticism.
memphis,
It was not a conversation that I had nor was I involved in it. I happened to be nearby and picked up a couple of sentences. I wasn't paying close attention because I was involved in a conversation of my own.
trollcrates,
That's pretty much it...as the movement progressed it splintered into..as piglet said...adding more to it...stuff like...women shouldn't wear pants...listening to any secular music is sin...in my day even wearing bell bottom pants was suspect...that's the defining difference between the two ideas of fundamentalism.
So Tim, are you saying that he did or did not say he was unaware of any external investigation?
Tim,
Just say you were eavesdropping. It takes a whole lot less time to write and it gets to your point more quickly.
"even wearing bell bottom pants was suspect"
I agree with that one! lol
well in the late sixties and early seventies it was only "suspect" to the fundie "rules and regs" police.
CJesusInMe,
Be nice now! :)
I am, I promise. I just find it really rediculous to post a quote from a conversation you later admit to not hearing and eavesdropping on.
Don't you want some of my fresh chocolate chip cookies?
That's a no-brainer. Of course I do!
aight, I'm off to bed...sleep well saints....nice talkin to ya trollcrates.
memphis,
My wording is unaware, I could not tell you the exact phrase because I wasn't paying that much attention.
Ace,
Actually not. I really was not interested to be quite honest.
I posted this earlier but got no response. Apparently I was a little vague so I will clarify:
Regarding the letter from the deacon. It is clear that this man was able to get his information out to all the deacons. He sent a letter out to them from his home. I understand they all have access to the other deacon's addresses.
This is a perfect example of why so many have a problem with what Mark Sharpe did in starting all this and claiming it had to be brought out in this manner (ie. the internet and media). Maybe they would not let him speak at the deacon's meeting, but why couldn't he have tried something like this first? There are plenty of ways he could have gotten in touch with the other deacons. They have a phone list. Maybe you can argue that he shouldn't have to but the fact is there is a lot of options in between speaking in the meeting and taking it to the internet.
Tim said...
I happened to overhear Steve Gaines this past Sunday evening state that he was unaware of any external investigations as well.
THEN Tim said...
My wording is unaware, I could not tell you the exact phrase because I wasn't paying that much attention.
Why didn't you state that in your original post? The only purpose of me quoting this is for other to see how rumors get started.
Tim said: I wasn't paying that much attention.
So why even post something like that then?
Excellent point, BePatient...great post. That's something to think about...
ace & memphis,
It was enough to have known the content, but not an exact quote.
Good enough.
Perhaps someone else was there does know more. I could not even tell you who was talking.
I would hardly classify it has rumor. Good grief.
Both of you no better, if it were not enough to have content I would not have said anything.
Tim,
eleos is greek for mercy. I hadn't thought about telly sevalis. Maybe I'll change it again.
tim-
that is not good enough for me.
context matters.
Tim,
It was enough to have known the content, but not an exact quote.
If it wasn't an exact quote, you should have noted that in your post. You posted with such certainty then when you were requested it turned into you really didn't hear the exact wording.
Good enough.
No, no...not really.
Diana Hart said, "Unfortunately it seems like every single day one of our "evangelical leaders" is being led astray by the contemplative prayer movement. Every day I get an email alert about another trusted leader hopping on that bandwagon. It is beyond me how so many can be so blind to what it really is."
Hello Diana and All...I would like to expand on these remarks just a bit. You stated that everyday one of the evangelical leaders is being lead astray by the contemplative prayer movement. I agree, but I stand amazed that these evangelist cannot discern. All of us as believers should be able to recognize heresy when we see it and not be blinded by it.
One issue I want to bring to the attention of the bloggers about contemplative prayer is how mainstream it has become. It actually has 'trickled down' from the Southern Baptist Convention, where it is endorsed heavily, to our Baptist churches...and this is much of the problem we are seeing today. I have seen some discussion on this site about James Dobson and Focus on the Family...and most people become really irritated by any doubt cast his direction. Well, today I have received information that needs to be shared. You make up your own minds after having read this and hopefully listened to the audio.
"Have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkenss, but expose them. (Esphesians 5:11)
On January 9th, Focus on the Family's Adventures in Odyssey (their program for children) presented an episode called "Solitary Refinement." Much like the recent Fox Home Video production, Be Still, "Solitary Refinement" is an infomercial for Contemplative Spirituality. Talking about going to monasteries to practice the disciplines of silence and solitude, getting rid of distractions and turning off thoughts in order to hear God, the program makes references throughout that encourage children to practice the "spiritual disciplines," with a particular emphasis on the discipline of solitude.
Anyone who has been researching and studying the contemplative prayer movement will understand the message in this presentation. Even the setting of a monestrary is significant. If Christians would go to an actual monestary today they would certainly get Thomas Merton and Henri Nouwen and in some cases even Reiki.
The original air date of this Adventures in Odyssey episode was 1996. This means that 11 years ago, long before contemplative spirituality (i.e., Spiritual Formation) had become mainstream in Christendom, as it has today, Focus on the Family was already heading in this direction. Now over a decade later, they are reintroducing the episode to a new generation of children. Interestingly though, it first aired several years after Rick Warren said that the Spiritual Formation movement was a vital and needed wake up call to the body of Christ (see Purpose Driven Church).
If your children listen to the Adventures in Odyssey, we encourage you to monitor this show as it may introduce your children to un-biblical spirituality.
First go to this website:
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Adventures_in_Odyssey/archives.asp
Then, go down three rows to January 9, 2006, to: Solitary Refinement. Please listen to the audio.
If this doesn't prove to you that Focus on the Family is no longer a friend to the Christian, nothing will. This is particularly alarming because they are trying to seduce the minds of our children. It is called brainwashing.
Note: I mean 'questioned,' not 'requested' in my above post to Tim...
Hearing a partial conversation is not good enough to me.
eleos,
My wife thought I was insane on that comment about Tele Savalis. I suppose it was just the ele that got me. Of course, if you had a few more vowels. I would think of Old McDonald. You know eieio.
Forgive me nothing personal. It was interesting and I couldn't gain the meaning of it. :)
Regaring BePatient's post, does anyone know if MS reached out to the deacons? Is he on by any chance?
Ace, Memphis & bepatient,
You asked, I answered.
Perhaps there are some lessons for other posters to learn from that. I have told you what I know, now seriously explain how that is so terrible.
Who asked for that information, Timmy? Because I'm scrolling up and see that you're the one who brought it up when talking about the investigation results so far.
A time stamp of a post would be awesome...thanks in advance.
ace,
Excuse me, let me clarify.
You asked for clarification and I answered your request.
Make sense now.
be patient
Mark needed several people present to discuss these issues face to face bccause, when questioned separately, their stories conflicted. Those were Bryson McQuiston, Mark Dougharty, Steve Gaines, David Smith, and himself.
I don't think phone calls or letters would suffice because after Mark called or wrote everyone, they would want proof and the proof is in the testimony of these men.
There were also issues involving Craig Parker and Mark wanted witnesses present.
I believe Mark's intent in making this public via the blog was to inform BBC members that SG was not acknowledging or doing anything to answer these allegations.
I'm sure he thought the church body would be alarmed by Gaines lack of respect for the deacon body and did not feel accountable to anyone.
Apparently, though,many do feel Gaines is not accountable to anyone, which has surprised and dissapointed me.
Tim, it justs sound like one of those "flame" posts someone was talking about. A post that was intended to make him look bad.
Tim,
I think the point is that you should have posted the context of the conversation and the fact that it was not an EXACT quote in the original statement. It is misleading not to.
Memphis
Mark asked if he could bring his issue before the deacon body and was told he was no longer a deacon.
memphis,
Quite honestly, He can handle that all by himself.
I have choose to ignore the sarcasm and not play into it but conduct myself above it. I would certainly appreciate a bit of courtesy.
Lindon...
Thank you so much for this post! I hope everybody on here realized that you just bore your soul for us. And I hope everybody reading understood.
Ima
piglet,
I am pretty sure that even if they did they did not take away his list of their addresses and phone numbers.
I have choose to ignore the sarcasm and not play into it but conduct myself above it. I would certainly appreciate a bit of courtesy.
Tim, I think this discussion has been civil, and without sarcasm. I just stated that Ithinkit is wrong to post something as a quote and then say I was paying attention to it.
sorry, shold read I was not paying attention to it.
getting late! lol
be patient and memphis
I'm not sure what measures Mark took after being stripped of his deacon title so I can't speak to that.
memphis,
Good enough. It is late and I am tired as well. I will leave it to you guys. I have clarified the issue to the best of my ability and you can either accept that or not. Nothing I can do to change that.
g'nite be patient,Tim, and Memphis
Remember your prayers :)
Maybe we should all go on Dr. Phil and learn to play nice before we continue.
Let the Dr. Phil bashing begin....
:-)
This has three parts. Each of the following recipients has a part:
Mom4, please see part one.
Bible Study for weekend, please see part two.
Trollcates, please see part three.
Thanks,
"In-a-year" (please, I can't go by the nickname, "Bible")
- Part 1 -
Mom4, I apologize, I was not clear in a comment you replied to. I did not mean for you to think I was criticizing you. Your apology showed a beautiful spirit, and I praise your "err on the side of apology" attitude.
- Part 2 -
Day 13: Genesis 37-39 (Saturday)
American English translation ("NIV")
King James
Day 14: Genesis 40-42 (Sunday)
American English translation ("NIV")
King James
- Part 3 -
Trollcates,
I would very much like to hear the story of how you accepted Christ. I believe it is possible that you and I are not both talking about the same thing when we talk about being saved by Jesus. I don't want you to miss something so important. It is not relevant to me whether you sat on the front row at BBC your whole life. I'm still concerned that you may have missed the part that makes all the difference.
But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. (Matthew 7:14)
Everyone have a good weekend!
(offline)
David S...
12:18???
You haven't had ample time to have listened to this audio.
Judging only from your response, there is no quesiton in my mind that you are an obvious supporter of Rick Warren...a Warrenite. A purpose driven pastor/preacher. There is really not much need for you and I to try to talk.
Tim wrote:
"I am surprised that this interim report has not generated much discussion, especially with regards to the reports of church staff denying that there was a DCS investigation. I happened to overhear Steve Gaines this past Sunday evening state that he was unaware of any external investigations as well."
memphis wrote:
"Piglet, unaware and deny are totally different."
piglet wrote:
"Memphis
"LOL!
"Please say you're kidding.
"You're not are you?"
memphis wrote:
"Nope, while Fish and MD might have denied it, SG said he was unaware, at least according to Tim's post."
NASS is speechless.
ace wrote:
"Just say you were eavesdropping. It takes a whole lot less time to write and it gets to your point more quickly."
He would have, but he didn't know how to spell it. :-) "Eavesdropping" is such an ugly word. Seriously, haven't you ever unintentionally overheard snippets of other people's conversations? (Don't feel compelled to answer that. It was a rhetorical question.) WOW.
trollcrates wrote:
"Like I said before, embrace your faith, especially when the crap is hitting the fan (ok, moderator?), but don't be drawn into a snakepit, because that is where this is going. In my opinion, Bellevue, as it has been known, is forever lost, but please don't, real Christians (in both camps), make this a long a bitter divorce for the benefit of everyone.
"And pardon me if I am in conflict with the Holy Writ, but discourse is the most civil form of conflict resolution as yet discovered; so when some barker tells you that it is a sin to engage thereof, that's a sure sign he or she doesn't have an argument and they should be excommunicated. OK, just kidding about that last part-tehe."
Well, it wasn't the first time that word was uttered in this forum. A few weeks ago yours truly told someone (probably "ace") to cut the... that.
Your other comments were right on -- even the part about excommunicating those who say we shouldn't engage in discourse. I mean, that's just another way of saying "if you don't like it, leave," isn't it? {sarcasm}
Seriously, though. "Discourse" isn't the same as "arguing," so please try to keep it civil.
NBBCOF
I know it is late there, and I just returned home after taking my daughter and grandson on a little sightseeing trip. While I was gone I noticed that it has been requested that trollcates and I remove ourselves from the conversationn because we would speak of something as small as trying to understand a nation where I am trying to minister and there are less than one percent Christian. Again, one more reason why I have seriously tried to not be branded a "christian". That word unfortunately has been co-opted by "christians" like byebelle and mark wiley.
trollcates, i apologize to you for their un-Jesus like attitude and response to you. Maybe others can understand why some have such a dim view of what we hold so dear. When I hear that kind of attitude it grieves me.
byebelle, I am in a country where 99 percent of the folks are Buddhist and I would like to be able to effectively share Jesus, please forgive me for interrupting your discussion with something as mundane as that. I waited and it had been very quiet, so I thought I would engage trollcates in discussion. Mr Wiley and byebell, please forgive me (I mean this) and trollcates, I ask you to forgive "christians" who would have this kind of attitude.
Your grace and openness is much better an example than many or what we "christians" expouse.
That's all.
By the way, most of the Buddhists over here that I am around, don't make 300 dollars their whole life (much less buy a pair of shoes).
I can't help but think when I see a country where millions and millions of people don't know Jesus, how ridiculous it would be to them to know that in America there are Christians who would even have to discuss such issues as 300 dollar shoes. I hope you understand my heart in saying that as I live here in this totally pagan place.
Concerning contemplative prayer, spiritual formation, etc...years ago I read some of these guys' works..Richard Foster, Dallas Willard, Larry Crabb, etc...they all quote the same people...St. John of the Cross, Henri Nouwin, Madam Guyon, etc...the mystics. While disciplines such as prayer, fasting, Bible study, giving, etc, are part and parcel of the Christian life...turning any of the elements into something to be used to have some type of "experience" is dangerous, and defeats it's purpose..all these things are about devotion to God, and to use them in that manner for the sake of some altered state, disengaged mind, out of body experience, visions, voices, etc. is dangerous and blasphemous...dangerous because it makes one vulnerable to seducing spirts, blasphemous because it turns devotion to God into a self seeking desire for an "experience" to satisfy the devotee.
Christianity, and in particular, Southern Baptists, have been on a steady move away from revealed truth, and toward experience, self revelation, etc. since the days when EY Mullins was president of Southern Seminary and served as SBC president.
kingdomrevolution, trollcrates,
That request did not come from your "blog administrator." I found your brief discussion somewhat interesting. Please don't let it get too long as the length of these threads has really gotten out of hand, but you did nothing wrong last night. Don't sweat it.
NBBCOF
AOG,
In light of that (which I agree with) what is the general view you take toward the teachings of Dr Henry Blackaby and his "Experiencing God" study?
I, too, have read all of Foster's books (wouldn't dismiss all of it out of hand), Willard's books have been helpful to me, but the danger of this subjective experience is something I have wrestled with.
I tend to lean more toward the teachings from the guy you pointed to on the sermone audio (can't think of his name) who taught on knowing and discerning the will of God more than the subjectivity that comes so often. But, as to Dr Blackaby, I have been to a number of his conferences and was invited to take part in one of his filmed/distributed video series (in the audience). He is an extremely humble and kind man, who is a man of deep prayer and understanding, but I wonder about the subjectivity experiential aspect of "Experiencing God".
Just wondering what you and others have come to think of the teachings of his.
Hopefully, this is a topic that won't upset the others too long or until they sign on.
NBBCOF,
Thanks for understanding. And I was trying to be sensitive to that. I only came came on when it seemed like the conversation had gone quiet for a while. Thought I could jump in and get out.
Again, thanks
bugsii wrote:
"Whoever is in charge of this site, I encourage you to change the direction of your site. Either shut down the comments and make your blog a Bellevue controversy news site, turn moderation on, only allow comments from certain proven bloggers, or only allow posts after your approval."
Thank you for the unsolicited advice. I'm well aware of how to moderate comments. Would you like to moderate 600-700 comments a day? I've got a life outside this mess, and I certainly don't have that kind of time. Blogger.com won't allow you to limit commenting to certain posters without limiting reading as well. We have a lot of people who read and never comment.
However, I decided to take your advice and moderate your extremely long, argumentative comment. Thanks for that suggestion.
NBBCOF
bugsii,
Thanks for posting. Your post was not hate-filled as many have been here, but given to facts and reproof--well deserved reproof for the most part. You said
There are serious issues in Bellevue right now and there’s no need to mix facts with, with...I
This is the central point and the raison d'etre for this blog's existence. Stepping out from among the trees for a second, let's look at the forest.
This blog came about because people as individuals felt abused, betrayed and disenfranchised by Steve Gaines. The fuel it has contunued to run on has been provided by Steve Gaines' actions and those of some of the leadership over the last year. This blog is a place where people who love Bellevue and will not be forced out have turned to for fellowship because it has been denied them within the walls of the church.
That said, some of what has gone on here is inexcusable by any standard, but I believe that the hearts of those here are by and large seeking God and His will for their lives and that of Bellevue.
For my part, I am afraid that Steve Gaines has passed the point of being able to pastor all the sheep effectively. What that implies for his continued ministry, I do not know. I have said before and I still believe that he should be on his face before the Lord, leading us all to brokeness.
Thanks for a thoughtful post. Many of us will consider prayerfully what you have said.
TS
bugsii
You got a problem with pigs? :)
I respect your opinion. There is a diverse group of people in this discussion forum and we don't all agree with everything that is said or the issues raised.
I agree that mere talk accomplishes nothing and the issues of concern need to be narrowed to those we can agree upon. This is not the forum for that but an attempt IS being made. More on that later.
The reference to Carter's kneeling at the alter has been discussed ad nauseum. It was someone's mistaken perception and they apologized for bringing it up.End of story.
As for the sitting together: this was in response to the standing ovations that happened at several services. A lot of members felt uncomfortable sitting and others stood so they wouldn't become a spectacle. We felt the ovations were unwarranted, embarrassing to our church, actaully. We resolved to sit together so the "peer pressure" to stand would diminish and so those not standing would become more visible. The leadership, in our opinion, do not need standing ovations for their conduct this past year!
As for the staff who have left or been let go and their silence: if you've been lurking, you've heard of the nondisclosure statements that they sign on the way out the door. Harry Smith was asked about these in the last CC meeting and he acknowledged these new forms but when asked who decided that exiting staff should sign these - responded "I don't know".
Not to mention how hard it would be to get on staff at another church once labeled a troublemaker by the biggest flagship church in the SBC.
About PW and his son: I would assume neither is happy this is public. It would not have been had Steve Gaines removed Paul Williams when this came to his attention. Unfortunately, he chose to ignore it and it had to be leaked so someone would report it. I don't know who leaked it but I suppose this person would have lost their job like many others have. It has to be reported, by law. Because of this, many parents are angry and wonder if they can trust the leadership's judgement concerning staff and lay minstry positions - and rightfully so. Bellevue has had a pedophile on staff, and counseling others, for 6 months with the full knowledge of the pastor while we have been dropping our kids off for various functions and trusting they were safe!!
I don't have anything to share on the leadership covenant since I don't know much about it.
Ignorance (of the membership) is bliss for the leadership in these cases. We just want folks to know what is going on.
I think our moderator is doing an outstanding job. I wouldn't want to be in his/her shoes.
bugsii,
I understand your frustrations with the blog. I experience them myself from time to time and succumb to the lower levels at times as well.
Your opinions coincide with what my own would have been several months back. I became concerned at some point about how the administration was suggesting that most of the issues were concerning style and preferences, but it didn't ring true with the issues that were being brought forth.
This led me to begin contacting people, investigating and ultimately in reaching the conclusion that there were much deeper problems than style and preference.
The secrecy that has been involved in decisions within the church has led to multiple issues of questionable credibility. The failure to base decisions upon a Scriptural foundation has led to issues of questionable integrity.
The worst issue by far at this point has been concerning Paul Williams. The secrecy involved in this issue has allowed the credibility of the ministry of Bellevue in it's entirity to be questioned. The failure to follow a Scriptural resolution to this problem has brought the integrity of our leadership into question.
I suppose that no one other than the Lord knows how deeply I wish that these things were not so or that I did not know that they were. It is beyond description one of the most painful processes that I have ever been through in my life.
Ambivalent silence is no longer an option, however.
Read this in the morning paper(CA).
I was struck that the rape of Paul Williams' son is considered an "incident". Maybe I'm reading this wrong but it seems to be written as no big deal.
here is the article I'll let you read it and form your own opinions.
The results of an investigation into a "moral failure" of a Bellevue Baptist Church pastor could be presented to its members in a week.
During its Dec. 17 services, the Cordova congregation was told that the church was investigating an indiscretion that Paul Williams, minister of prayer and special projects and a 34-year staff member there, allegedly committed 17 years ago. He is on paid leave pending the investigation.
"We have made significant progress on all aspects of our investigation," stated the investigative team's interim report presented to Bellevue's personnel committee on Sunday and released on its Web site Friday.
"Our final report will be made to the Personnel Committee on Jan. 20. If any area of our investigation is not complete at that time, we will provide a timetable for completion."
Using outside legal counsel and personnel consultants, the investigative team will tackle Williams' subsequent employment status at the church "as well as any actions that should be taken on behalf of his family and the church family."
The committee report also says the church is working with the state Department of Children's Services as the investigative team combs through Williams' actions as pastor over the past 17 years to determine whether any church member or anyone seeking help had been harmed. If so, the investigative team recommended that the church offer any victims Christian counseling from outside Bellevue.
The team's final report will also address any policies that may need to be revised in guiding the pastor and church staff.
Dr. Steve Gaines, the church's senior pastor, has been criticized from inside and outside Bellevue's walls in his handling of the Williams matter. He learned of the issue in June, but some members were upset that he did not tell the congregation until mid-December.
AOG,
It is almost 12:00 midnight here, so I am off. I appreciated your heartfelt posting from yeterday on your personal blog and left a comment there for you. Look forward to hearing your thoughts.
Blessings!
Jesus Alone!!
nthepew
Do you reckon the doors will be wide enough for the people leaving if Paul comes back on staff?
Piglet
But look at the brightside, there will be plenty of empty seats up front for the diehard SG people.
David S. said,
"I simply asked you to document what you said..."
Okay, I will.
David S….
Okay…in response to your request for validation, or whatever you want to call it. Suffice it to say that I would never say anything without having already studied it in length and be able to back it up. In fact, I have studied so much on the apostasy, heresies, falling away, church growth movements, PDL, emergent, new age, monastaries, monks, desert fathers, labyrinths, yoga, lecti Rick Warren say of Henri Nouwen
“My wife, Kay, recommends this book” : "It's a short book, but it hits at the heart of the minister. It mentions the struggles common to those of us in ministry: the temptation to be relevant, spectacular and powerful. I highlighted almost every word!"
o divina, breath prayers, mantra, divination, …that I would be hard put to go back and point out everything I have read and find exactly where I read it. I have, however, retained my knowledge from my research. My research has come from searches on the internet, but also from books I have either purchased or gotten from the libraries from these various authors. I have not ‘taken’ anybody’s word, I have researched it myself. Also I have never left the Word. However, it is very easy to back up any of these facts by doing your own research. Especially those of you who are pastors…you should know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are teaching Truth. You owe it to yourselves and those you teach to know what is going on around you…what the world is becoming, and especially you should know that this very world has infiltrated the church and the Word of God. You need to know what you are fighting and what you need to be fighting. It is not my intention, Mr. David S., to hurt the cause of Christ, but rather to rid it of the filth that has infiltrated His teachings. So even with the death of my sister-in-law yesterday, this is important enough for me to take time out to get back with you on this. I don’t have a great deal of time to put on it, but I will at least give you something to go on. I certainly hope you will start putting a great deal of study into this and gain from it. Study to ‘shew thyself approved’. Not only in reading God’s word, but reading to know what is out there trying to destroy God’s word and in so doing, knowing how to combat such. You really can’t fight the enemy if you don’t know who/what the enemy is.
I have listed here a lot of information from Deborah Dombrowski who has dedicated her life to the cause of Christ…and in doing battle against those who try to infiltrate the Body of Christ. I have found her to be both passionate in her love of Christ and credible. I have, however, even knowing this…checked things for myself. You can research most of the following from her website and the websites of Rick Warren…
I, of course, don’t know you. You certainly have the right to your opinion as does everyone. I don’t wish to debate you or argue against you. I believe there should be a way to disagree without becoming sarcastic. If I have offended you, please forgive me…as that is certainly not my intention. When I become offended, it is when I see our Lord Jesus Christ offended…and I am sorry to say that is becoming the norm. People, Christians…need to get back to the basics. We need to study the Bible, the Word of God…and nothing else. We don’t need to ‘pick’ things from the Bible and try to expand on these things in creating some kind of mystical religion. Mysticism and the like have no place in Christianity. I wish you well. And I really am serious when I say I don’t think a continued conversation with benefit either of us. We see differently. You support Rick Warren…I don’t. It is that simple. I have had enough of Rick Warren for this lifetime. And he knows that.
The discerning believer and the Bible-centered church must ascertain whether any error is present within our midst and then take the appropriate actions to rid itself of them. Even a small amount of error can produce disastrous results.
Now to read the following and thank you:
Rick Warren said of Henri Nouwen (contemplative spirituality/mysticism/centering prayer) “My wife, Kay, recommends this book” : "It's a short book, but it hits at the heart of the minister. It mentions the struggles common to those of us in ministry: the temptation to be relevant, spectacular and powerful. I highlighted almost every word!"
In both Rick Warren's Purpose Driven Life and on his pastors.com website, he encourages the use of breath prayers. In nearly every instance that people use this phrase, this is an Eastern style of mantra prayer.
With practice, you can develop the habit of praying silent 'breath prayers'" —Rick Warren, from his web site, pastors.com
"[U]se 'breath prayers' throughout the day, as many Christians have done for centuries. You choose a brief sentence or a simple phrase that can be repeated to Jesus in one breath."
—Rick Warren, Purpose-Driven Life, p. 89.
"Breath prayers are a great way to keep in contact with our Heavenly Father throughout our day. Just repeat short heart-felt prayers, such as "You are my God," "I love you Lord," and "Thank You, Jesus."
from pastors.com article by Tobin Perry
"Develop the habit of praying silent "breath prayers" for those you encounter."
—Rick Warren, Sermons
Rick Warren: p. 88 PDL "Benedictine monks use the hourly chimes of a clock to remind them to pause and pray 'the hour of prayer.:' If you have a watch or cell phone with an alarm,
you could do the same."
Purpose Driven Life: Worship that pleases God
by Rick Warren
(talks about Gary Thomas and Benedictine monks, also talks about Breath Prayers in this article, Brother Lawrence and Frank Laubach)
Rick Warren speaking at Youth Specialties events where yoga, labyrinths, emerging church and contemplative prayer are promoted. The connection is there. AND
Bringing in Youth Specialties speakers to train at his Purpose-Driven Youth Ministries
Saddleback Church's Youth Pastor, Doug Fields, Teams Up With Youth Specialties …
Examples: Players Tony Jones and Dan Kimball
Tony Jones bio on the site reads:
Tony is the national coordinator of Emergent, a growing, generative friendship among missional Christian leaders.
Dan Kimball:Dan is the author of The Emerging Church, Emerging Worship and the forthcoming They Like Jesus, But Not the Church. He's the pastor of Vintage Faith Church in Santa Cruz, California, a sister-church of Santa Cruz Bible Church, designed for the post-Christian culture.
And there are many others listed who are with emergent and new age, etc.
In the Saddleback Student Ministry Internship, the course is teaching and promoting the works of Brian McLaren, Leonard Sweet and Henri Nouwen. This is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Rick Warren and contemplative prayer.
http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/warrenpromotingcp.htm\
Is Rick Warren Promoting Contemplative Prayer?
Is Rick Warren promoting contemplative spirituality (i.e.,spiritual formation)? We believe the answer to that is a wholehearted "yes." The first clue came many years ago in Warren's first book,The Purpose Driven Church, where he said that the Spiritual Formation movement had a "vital message for the church," and has "given the body of Christ a wake up call" (p. 127). Since then, a repeated promotion of contemplative prayer has taken place through Rick Warren's ministries.
The March 29th issue of Rick Warren's "Living the Better Life" e-newsletter is another example. Under the section titled Insights for the Better Life, is an article written by Saddleback pastor, Lance Witt. The article called, "Enjoying God's Presence in Solitude," says that we are "designed to enjoy the presence of God, but that's easier said than done." In the article, Witt uses Thomas Merton as an example of someone who knew about solitude. But Merton's solitude was connected to his Buddhist sympathies. Merton likened contemplative prayer to an LSD trip.
Witt finishes his article with, "The goal of solitude is not so much to unplug from my crazy world, as it is to change frequencies so that I can hear the Father. Richard Foster has said, 'Solitude doesn't give us the power to win the rat race, but to ignore it altogether.'" What does Witt mean by "changing frequencies"? Three years ago, I spoke with Lance Witt, via email, and asked him if the kind of contemplative prayer he taught was a practice in which words or phrases are repeated over and over. He told me that it was indeed this type of prayer he taught. This "changing frequencies" is contemplative language and means going into an Alpha state of mind (an altered state of consciousness) in order to stop distractions. It's like putting the mind in neutral. Contemplatives believe this is how they can hear the voice of God.
In light of Witt's statement to me and his article, it shouldn't come as too much of a surprise to know that Rick Warren has promoted a book called Sacred Pathways by Gary Thomas. In Ray Yungen's new edition of A Time of Departing, Yungen brings this out. He quotes Warren who says of Thomas' book: "Gary has spoken at Saddleback, and I think highly of his work ... he tells them [readers] how they can make the most of their spiritual journeys. He places an emphasis on practical spiritual exercises" (see pg.151 ATOD, 2nd ed.). Yungen then quotes from Thomas' book: "It is particularly difficult to describe this type of prayer in writing, as it is best taught in person. In general however, centering prayer works like this: Choose a word (Jesus or Father, for example) as a focus for contemplative prayer. Repeat the word silently in your mind for a set amount of time (say, twenty minutes) until your heart seems to be repeating the word by itself, just as naturally and involuntarily as breathing" (p. 152 ATOD, 2nd ed.).
It is through this twenty minute long repetition that frequencies can be changed.
This promotion of contemplative by Rick Warren is just another example of a long line of promotions of contemplative spirituality that have come through Purpose Driven. Ray Yungen, in the new edition of his book, A Time of Departing (March 2006) wrote an entire chapter on this matter. By the time you finish reading that chapter, we think you will be convinced beyond doubt that Rick Warren is an advocate for the very spirituality that Thomas Merton claimed made him feel deeply impregnated with Sufism (Islamic mysticism). The following is another excerpt from the new edition of A Time of Departing:
The question you may be asking right now is, "Why is Rick Warren included in a book that is covering New Age interspirituality and exposing the dangers of contemplative prayer? Are you saying that Rick Warren is heading in that direction too? Not America?s pastor! Surely not." If that were the case, we'd hear about it from Christian leaders. Right? ... If indeed Rick Warren is promoting contemplative prayer, as I believe he is, this guarantees that contemplative prayer will be promoted on an enormous scale. Through Rick Warren, Richard Foster's vision could enter fully into mainstream evangelicalism both in North America and around the world; and with the unprecedented following and support Warren has gained, we could be heading towards a crisis in the church that might possibly lead to the falling away that the Apostle Paul warns about (pp. 142-143, ATOD, 2nd ed.).
Like a volcanic mountain that has simmered silently in the background for years, building pressure and waiting to explode, so too is contemplative spirituality. As many of you have already witnessed, this mystical, dangerous belief system is now everywhere, even in the teachings and ministries of "America's pastor," who is influencing millions of people around the world.
New Agers believe that the world will be unified and brought to peace through a majority of people practicing meditation. What surprise they must be experiencing now to see evangelical Christendom join ranks and leave behind a solid, bible-based faith in Jesus Christ and exchange it for their own spirituality.
RICK WARREN
(and the pastors at Saddleback)
promote the following contemplatives on Rick Warren's pastors.com website: (among many others)
Henri Nouwen
John Ortberg
Brother Lawrence
(also p. 88 PDL)
Richard Foster
Brennan Manning
Tricia Rhodes
(The Soul at Rest
Thomas Merton
Frank Laubach
In the Name of Jesus (Crossroad/Herder, 1993)
Rick Warren say of Henri Nouwen
“My wife, Kay, recommends this book” : "It's a short book, but it hits at the heart of the minister. It mentions the struggles common to those of us in ministry: the temptation to be relevant, spectacular and powerful. I highlighted almost every word!"
Other Contemplative Books Rick Warren Recommends on Purpose Driven Life website:
Renovation of the Heart
by Dallas Willard
Understanding Who You Are
by Larry Crabb
DanSoutherland’s book Transitioning and his cooperation, Transitioning, Inc. should supply you with what happens when a pastor decides to turn an old established church into a purpose driven church. They stop at nothing to get their goal accomplished…including running people off from the churches of a lifetime. Pragmatism…whatever it takes. They will get it done. Such is the case at Bellevue right now.
I could go on and on…but, of course I have to stop somewhere. Go research all of this yourself. Find out about all of these men, authors/lecturers, etc., yourself who Warren stands behind and supports…has speak at Saddleback, has on his staff, has noted on his websites. It is all there…go look for yourself. When you run across a name, research the person. You will learn much.
I do have just a couple of questions for you. You are a pastor, right? Has your church, either as a pastor or a member, done the 40 day study, 40 Days of Purpose, Community? Are you planning to do the new one coming in September...40 Days of Vision? Have you attended any of the Saddleback seminars? Taken any of the classes via tapes? Are you a model of Saddleback only? Do you copy any phase of the Saddleback movement? What kind of music do you play? How many various sermons do you have in your church? Do you refrain from mentioning hell, sin, cross from the pulpit?
Thanks...
Ima
Just a request of everyone. Instead of posting long articles, could everyone please just post the links for them in your comments? There's a link on the front page entitled "How to Put a Link in a Comment" which will give you the instructions for doing that. These comments sections are getting longer and longer, and when comments take up 5-6 pages each, it adds up fast. Your cooperation will be appreciated.
NBBCOF
I would HIGHLY recommend some of the books mentioned by iamaresistor.
Been a Bible-believing and practicing daily Christian for over 30 years. Been to Bible school, been preaching and living the gospel for 21 years and know a few things too.
This I know:
Rick Warren and Saddleback Church are doing the "stuff". They are putting the feet to the gospel and are being used not only in America, but also in Africa and Asia to make a difference. Boy, are they making a difference. They are doing what Jesus said and that's important. They are sending people and money by the thousands in people and in the millions in money to tell people about Jesus who loves them and died to save them. They are giving food and medicine to the starving and sick and they are leaving these places better for having been there.
THANK YOU RICK WARREN AND SADDLEBACK FOR BEING WHO THE CHURCH IS SUPPOSED TO BE!!
I would highly recommend these books:
1. The Divine Conspiracy by Dallas Willard. This is one of the top three Christian books I have ever read and I have read thousands. In fact, any book by Willard will bless your socks off and cause you to grow in your love for Jesus and the life He wants to give you.
2. The Ragamuffin Gospel by Brennan Mannning. Will cure you of the judgmentalism and the critical spirit that self-righteousness has bred into too many in the church today.
Thanks for reminding me of these. Think I will break out Manning and read this week again.
Forgive me if someone has already pointed this out, but take a look at this excerpt from the investigative committee's interim report:
We are working out a schedule with the Department of Child Services to provide us with onsite training for all Pastoral and Children’s Ministry staff.
Once again, rather than follow the clear mandate and guide Scripture gives us (Matthew 18, 1 Cor 5, etc), we've chosen to bring the world's way of doing things into the church.
We apparently need a governmental agency to instruct us on what is and is not proper when dealing with children. Christian adults in full-time ministry service must be told by bureaucrats what constitutes a proper child/adult relationship. We've lost our way, and we need on-site training to help us understand the very complex issues involved.
Let's get this straight: rather than the church acting as salt and light in the community, the community now has to come apply antibiotics to the church.
May God have mercy upon us.
Oh yeah, and David, my Bro, the book by Nouwen iamaresistor mentioned, In the Name of Jesus----I highly recommend it too. By it for all the staff you may have and for all your leadership, little book, packed with truth, humility, love and wisdom for those of us who are trying to lead and shepherd haggard sheep the best we can. As my old daddy used to say, it'll ring your bell too!. Have read everything Nouwen has written and it is dozens; some are good, some are pretty lame, but I have found that if a man loves God and God has allowed him to write, I can glean the kernels from his writings and cull the rest
It's been a long time since I have been here so HI :O) but I was doing some reading and praying last night and a parable I had forgotten came to my attention.
Luke 18:10-14
Who do you guy's identify with in this parable?
Just some food for thought for all of us.
Please pray for my marriage. Brad and Brianne Jobe and Alaina 3 1/2. Thank you.
Somebody needs to get the Drano. I think that epic tome by iamaresistor clogged the pipes. It is taking forever to load the page now.
truthbtold...
Okay, okay! Calm down! I have asked the moderator to delete the post. Not only did I take up too much space, you are taking up too much space complaining about my taking up too much space. Enough already! Done...
Now, just run outside and play...
New BBC Open Forum
Moderating comments of course would be extra work but the integrity of the site will be maintained.
I realize you have a life outside this website. I suggest assigning one of your your proven posters admin rights to assist. This should make your job easier. You can sit down, approve/reject whenever you feel like it.
Maybe the slower process will cause people to think about their posts and it will hopefully eliminate the realtime chatroom affect where tempers flare and everyone wants the last word.
I am not telling you how to run your website. I'm asking you to make a stand to clean up your site.
Stillwaiting,
Well some of you know my opinion. It just further's my postulation that the Commercial Appeal would call this an "indiscretion". If they could prove or had evidence of a molestation you can bet your bottom dollar they'd be calling it that. So essentially we've had a de-escalation of the terminology used to describe this incident. How did the newspaper come to decide to use that word? Just literary license or reporters perogative? Or did someone let them know that's what will be put forth this coming week on the 16th?
stillwaitingandwatching,
At the risk of being blasted for posting more often than anyone else. :)
At the risk of being blasted for not knowing what I am talking about. :)
Let me offer the briefest of explanations based on my understanding.
The DCS investigation is currently very restricted. They do not have the documentation necessary to conduct a full investigation.
Short of the DCS having a full investigation to report to the DA's office, the DA will restricted from filing charges.
The "moral failure" terminology was carefully chosen and has remained in place because it does not give the DCS definitive reason to conduct a full investigation.
The entire swing of the scale rest upon Paul Williams himself. He needs to step down, but unless something has changed he has refused to do so. If he should step down, there will possibly never be a complete external investigation and the term "moral failure" will never need to be defined. If he does not step down then it is highly likely that critical documentation will be delivered to the DCS that will provide them with the authority to investigate.
It has been said that Paul Williams has been left on staff to acquire his cooperation. That cooperation is needed internally by the church and here is why. If he were no longer on staff then he would no longer be protected by the legal council of the church. Should that legal council be removed, he would have to obtain his own and it is probable that they would encourage him to cooperate openly with the DCS in their presence.
I tried to be brief, but it was a lot to cover. The summary is that what is in the best interest of the church is no necessarily what is in the best interest of the leadership of the church.
stillwaitingandwatching
Hi! :)
I think the church has been silent on the details of the "moral Failure" so they can spin it any way they need to after all the investigations.
JMHO
As I was scanning thru the posts I saw one about members sitting together that did not want to stand for the ovations, or members only going to Bible Fellowship class and not going to the preaching. My question is to choir members, and maybe this is too personal for comments on here, I don't know because I only come occasionally. But I was curious as to if there are choir members that are posters on this blog site. I have not been to a preaching service in probably two months but I did attend BF last week and as I walked past the choir as they were entering I heard the congregation clapping. Soooo...as a choir member, I may choose to sing and then leave, but what about the ovation thing?? It may be a bit more noticeable if your standing or "not standing" in front of the entire congregation. Any thoughts??
From the vantage point of being a pro-Gaines supporter who already sits at the front (sorry, couldn't resist!) ... during the last controversial show of support for our pastor a couple of weeks ago, there were several choir members who did not applaud at all.
They STOOD, but only because that's what the choir does as they come in until seated by the director or acting director. They were obvious in their not applauding. Some I know, some I do not -- but in the spirit of not being disruptive in a worship service (regardless of whether standing O's are right or wrong -- and please let's not debate that again! -- I think those who clapped and those who did not made their respective positions known. Just as so many things in the congregation can be seen by the choir, so can most things in the choir be seen by those seated in the congregation.
Additionally, if someone sings in the 11:00 service, they can sit in the end sections and leave after the choir special if they so desire. To leave after the choir special in the 9:30 service would be fairly conspicuous.
I hope this helps.
Tim, once again you post supposition as if they were facts. You've missed the mark on this one. You may want to speak with someone else if this is the information you've been supplied. It is incorrect as to the reasoning you've presented. Please make sure that your information has the legs before posting. Now is not the time for some conspiracy theory to take life. We are only a few days away from the report. I've spoken with someone involved in the investigation and the understanding I now have makes me aware of the reason for being judicious in this matter.
Did anyone else notice this wording in the interim report from the personnel committee?
We are working toward the following objectives for our report:
Paul Williams’ Employment Status
Recommend the final disposition of Paul Williams’ employment with Bellevue Baptist Church, as well as any actions that should be taken on behalf of his family and the church family.
Is not the root word of disposition "dispose?" Could this be a deliberately cryptic choice of words? Just curious.
As a former BBC member and a former member of the choir, I can promise you if there was a standing ovation going on and I was standing I would probably sit down while that was going on. I did not support Gaines blaspheming of the scripture and would not participate in any standing O's that weren't related directly to Jesus. JMO as usual.
justmyopinion
Please enlighten us!
Diana, with respect to your right to your opinion, had you been there on the day in question, then you would have been sitting by yourself. Surely most choir members have been around long enough to know standing ovations at Bellevue are fairly commonplace and have been for years. If they had disagreed as strongly as you suggest, why did none of them sit as you would have?
We are working out a schedule with the Department of Child Services to provide us with onsite training for all Pastoral and Children’s Ministry staff.
Steve Gaines and his bonehead staff have taken another wrong turn. The DCS "onsite trainers" could be anybody, maybe even Muslims or worse.
Do the senior Bellevue staff members have a brain?
SW&W, I hope their use of "disposition" means his employment will be terminated, and soon.
MJM,
I didn't say any of them disagreed as strongly as I do. In fact, if they did disagree as strongly as me, most of them would either be in BF class, teaching the kids, or be at a church where they can worship unhindered. The ones on my side who are able to stomach the services are on my hero list! I wish I could have stayed there as well but I just could not. I think the ones I have talked to know I'm praying in earnest for them.
Diana
Diet Coke spitting moment! Thanks a lot, SW&W!!!
Diana, thanks for that honest and heartfelt response, and for the grace with which you reflected Christ's love in your words.
MJM,
Another thought - I have been sitting by myself for most of my life. Nothing new there and no, it would not have bothered me at all to sit by myself. I now sing in a choir where almost everyone claps but me. That doesn't bother me either. I'm not about emotionalism. I'm only about Jesus. And you are right. We did have a lot of standing ovations at BBC even before SG got there. Didn't necessarily agree with those either. I usually participated somewhat because I didn't see them to be self serving.
I am glad to see you would also like to see Paul W's job terminate
ASAP.
Diana
The DCS "onsite trainers" could be anybody, maybe even Muslims or worse.
Servant
Yeah, maybe Democrats; or even, perish the thought, Booddists!
justmyopinion
You said :" I've spoken with someone involved in the investigation and the understanding I now have makes me aware of the reason for being judicious in this matter. "
So please tell us what was said so we can all be aware of the reason for being "judicious in this matter".
We want to understand.
MJM,
Thank you for your kind words. You are an encouragement to me! I hope we can agree not to be disagreeable!
Stillwaitingandwatching,
That was pretty funny!
Di
Yeah but trollcates,
Libs would by far be the worst! ha ha
Diana
From the SavingBellevue site:
"Staff member Jamie Fish told Paul Williams's S.S. class on 1/7/07 that there is no external investigation going on? Read tomorrow's Commercial Appeal"
If that happened, should be an interesting discussion tommorrow AM in that BF class imo. No one wanted this kind of exposure for Bellevue. Now the main question in my mind for the AM is "How many articles will there be?"
These are dark days for Bellevue. Without transparency heat and light are increased. The Lord is purging Bellevue. In Rev. 1, John reported that Jesus' eyes were like flaming fire. No denial will block His gaze.
Everybody must be taking a nap on this rainy afternoon -- so they can all stay up blogging till 2 a.m. ...
DISCLAIMER: I have no verification of this statement. It is purely conjecture on my part. I just felt like starting a rumor.
Other questions in my mind are: "Will the CA receive pressure not to publish? and "If they do, will they report on that?"
jmo
For which comment did you remove my original post? My comments were light compared to some of the other posters so I assume I've broke no standard.
I mentioned no names other than in the stats and was addressing the changing tone of your site.
I don't think it was removed because of length since there are comments of similar size still on this page.
I in no way implied that I was anti-SG or pro-SG.
Did you just not like my opinion? Please tell me why my comment was removed?
Yet another one...was former SBC President Bobby Welch's church...The churches are falling.
http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/News/Headlines/frtHEAD04REL011307.htm
DAYTONA BEACH NEWS JOURNAL ON-LINE.COM
January 13, 2007
First Baptist members say pew to new pastor's changes...
By JIM HAUG
Staff Writer
DAYTONA BEACH -- The Rev. David Cox modernized the altar of First Baptist Church of Daytona Beach with a hardwood stage, twin movie screens and music equipment worthy of a rock band.
piglet wrote: "justmyopinion
Please enlighten us!"
I wish that was possible but I'm afraid that opinions are so strong and closely guarded now that I would be speaking in vain. I could express the concerns that are there both for the Paul Williams family and legal concerns for the church family. And no, those legal concerns have nothing to do with Bro. Steve. Too many are confusing leaders trying to understand and get their facts straight with these cover-up theories being posted.
I personally know the men in leadership at our church and they will not risk their integrity to cover something of this nature up. They do have the foresight to be diligent and not to be rushed in their search for the truth.
I believe that they will also address Bro. Steve's failure to have previously communicated this. It will not be a positive assessment of how he handled the situation. The leadership is aware of the awkwardness of the situation that the church has been placed due to the lack of disclosure.
Kingdom said: "Again, one more reason why I have seriously tried to not be branded a "christian". That word unfortunately has been co-opted by "christians" like byebelle and mark wiley."
Kingdom, you just said you did not want to be branded a "christian". Are you ashamed of Christ in a pagan land? And how dare you imply that I am not a christian. That is a dangerous statement to make. I did not even read your post when I made my request about trollcate. This thread has NOTHING to do with what you or trollcates are bringing up. There are millions of blogs out there where you can discuss Buddha or your adventures in the orient. But we are discussing a serious family problem here and we don't need troublemakers. Especially ones that don't want to be branded a "Christian".
Mr Wiley,
No, you are definitely a "christian," and I don't think Kingdom implied otherwise nor that he is ashamed of Christ; don't make it about something it's not, just because you're grumpy. So you didn't read for context? You're 100% the Christian I generally meet.
Pardon me, sir, but I am a teacher concerned for children at BBC and a victim of sexual abuse during my childhood. A pedofile is not a family or church issue, as I have stated before, it is a community issue.
I have stayed on topic throughout my involvement here, am respectful and kind. I think the thing that truly offends is that someone may say, with confidence, no, I am not a christian and am quite happy on a different path. Or perhaps, that a non-christian might have values, compassion and intelligence.
You are the one that really ought to be ashamed sir, but I won't hold my breath.
cjesusnme
You have mail. The first one was sent by mistake. :/
JMO
Thanks for your response to my question. I wish you felt comfortable to share. I know how it can be though:
"Who told you that?"
"Do you have proof?"
"Are you sure that's what they meant?"
"How do you know?"
"Isn't that just your opinion?"
I've been through that a million times... :/
trollcates,
What are you talking about? I simply tried to keep us on this subject and not about Tibet or Buddha. And I quoted dude about him not wanting to be labeled a christian. Then you have the gall to say to me that I ought to be ashamed and that I'm grumpy. You, sir know what you are and who you serve. And it's not JESUS!
Mark Wiley
C'mon now, NBBCOF,
Are you removing posts of people who express strong opinions now? I am quire surprised that you chopped bugsii off. While his tone was angry, It didn't seem vitriolic. The only questionable language he used was generalize all posts here as "drivel." Considering his strong counsel to you about toning down the rhetoric here administratively, it makes you look a little petty. I personally think you're doing a great job, but isn't he entitled to express his opinion too? What am I missing?
I'm disappointed...
TS
Why did Steve Gaines not want a regular Deacons meeting this month?
Answer....
Because in a normal Deacons meeting questions can be asked.
The monthly giving amounts and YTD numbers are given.
Also Sunday School attandence numbers are given.
Soooo...if you have a Deacons retreat at the church, you don't have to give any kind of reports, and no one gets to ask questions.
Here You go again Steve...you are toooo controlling......
As for me, I walk the line.
Knee-deep in what you folks are standing in right mow, Mr Wiley, I proudly wear your misinformed judgement like a medal.
No, I don't serve JESUS--said as much; I take it He told you that your behavior is just hunky-dory.
Or, if it's 4545:
"That's a lie!"
"Not true!"
"Disagree!"
"Give me some facts."
"If you cannot give facts or at least more details of what you are talking about, you should have never opened your mouth."
"There have been MANY on your side of the issues on this blog give a totally different story..."
"Can you be more specific?"
piglet wrote: JMO
Thanks for your response to my question. I wish you felt comfortable to share. I know how it can be though:
I just get tired of the old rhetoric from those whose mind is closed.
"Who told you that?"
His name is well known but to post it would just allow people to discredit him as usual.
"Do you have proof?"
I've known this person for 15 years and have found them to totally honest.
"Are you sure that's what they meant?"
Without a doubt!
"How do you know?"
If you are asking, how as in which means...I just called him and asked because I felt that someone was making gossip as fact on this board.
"Isn't that just your opinion?"
Obviously since I'm not in a decision making position it would be my opinion of the final direction....but an informed opinion, rather than a suppository one.
Mr Cash,
Love your work!
Before you go down in a ring of fire - do you know what facts were covered in Mississippi?
The hilarious irony is that now you have mention Tibet and Buddha more than I have.
In fact, you've said little otherwise.
Are you kidding? Have you encouraged the moderator to "boot" any other of the many aside conversations, or just mine, christian?
Just My Opinion said:
"I personally know the men in leadership at our church and they will not risk their integrity to cover something of this nature up. They do have the foresight to be diligent and not to be rushed in their search for the truth.
I believe that they will also address Bro. Steve's failure to have previously communicated this. It will not be a positive assessment of how he handled the situation."
It is interesting in this quotation to consider how you seem to have left left Bro. Steve outside of the "men in leadership in our church." Do I sense a distancing... a new posturing here...
You speak of "their integrity." Here is a very interesting presentation on this word imo:
http://webweevers.com/integrity.htm
JMO
I was posing my questions in jest as an example of how we are picked apart on a daily basis. Thanks for trying to answer anyway. :)
Steve Gaines called it a moral failure rather than calling it what it is. Why? I believe so he can say that he acknowledged it without being specific. Why? Kind of like a fill in the blank for later on down the road to see how he needs to spin it later. Why? This way, by not calling the issues what they really are, he has the freedom at least say that he told the church.
good afternoon bloggers...hi trollcrates...i see you've met a few folks.
telos said...
Mr Cash,
Love your work!
Before you go down in a ring of fire - do you know what facts were covered in Mississippi?
4:44 PM, January 13, 2007
telos,
maybe, but be more specific.
Just My Opinion said...
Tim, once again you post supposition as if they were facts. You've missed the mark on this one.....etc...etc...etc
Just My Opinion said...
piglet wrote: "justmyopinion
Please enlighten us!"
I wish that was possible but I'm afraid that opinions are so strong and closely guarded now that I would be speaking in vain.....
Reply:
I will readily agree that I do not have 100% of the information. I will stongly suggest that you do not either.
It is interesting that you choose to discredit the information that I presented without offering anything differing information. Then refuse to elaborate upon your reasoning.
It would seem to me that since you exist in the world of annonmity you should be far more likely to express your opinions openly. Escpecially since you will not be called to answer for them in the future.
I have offered my opinions based on the information that I have. Since I am not in the world of the anonymous, they do require a certain level of trust concerning there sources.
AllofGrace,
Greetings and salutations, friend. Ya, everyone's so nice!
Mr Cash,
You state that none of the usual statistics were shared at the "retreat" - Do we know this as fact or is this conjecture? I am not questioning your integrity, just curious -- and I could not resist the play on words: )
trollcrates,
I hope the balance of your day has been better than your brief excursion into the blogsphere.
AoG,
This has been benefitial too. I have this deep-rooted connection to the Baptist and evangelical communities, through friends and family; and of course, other contexts for being interested in what happens at BBC, most of them personal.
I think y'all should accept the inevitable, let go and rend the congregation. This scandal, on the heels of ever escalting instances of sexual abuse and fraud in churches and other spiritual traditions, is seismic. You're the mothership, you know. You put the spread by the Hwy, for crying out loud.
How you resolve this matters deeply well beyond the walls of Bellevue.
boy...i come on..make a couple of comments and everyone leaves town.
trollcrates,
there you are...yea I agree..many of us feel that how this pans out...one way or the other will have catastrophic effects on the SBC, the evangelical community at large, as well as the greater community.
Trollcates,
Does your name rhyme with "skates" or "Socrates?"
Just curious...
TS
AOG,
I thought it was me - but i can accept that it was you ; )
telos,
LOL...well it did get quiet for a few.
Don't flame me ... just sharing:
10 Little Christians!!!
Ten Little Christians came to church all the time,
One fell out with the preacher, then there were nine.
Nine Little Christians stayed up late,
One overslept on Sunday, then there were eight.
Eight Little Christians on their way to heaven,
One took the low road, then there were seven.
Seven Little Christians, chirping like chicks,
One didn't like the singing, then there were six.
Six Little Christians seemed very much alive,
One took a vacation, then there were five.
Five Little Christians pulling for heaven's shore,
One stopped to take a rest, then there were four.
Four Little Christians each as busy as a bee,
One got his feelings hurt, then there were three.
Three Little Christians couldn't decide what to do,
One couldn't have his way, then there were two.
Two Little Christians each won one more,
Now don't you see, two and two make four.
Four Little Christians worked early and late,
Each brought one, now there were eight.
Eight Little Christians if they double as before
In just seven Sundays, we have one thousand twenty four.
In this jingle there is a lesson true:
You belong either to the building committee or to the wrecking crew.
Author Unknown
AOG,
Trollcates brings up an important point; ie how Bellevue handles this goes a long way towards the attitude of society towards the church. These are serious times.
(gets out his flamethrower)..jk :)
telos,
indeed..the ramifications are far reaching to be sure.
MJM,
“And, I’m telling you that from the first day that I walked in the door, it was a time of plucking up, breaking down, destroying and overthrowing,” he said.
Steve Gaines, address to Southern Seminary, 1999
(This is not a flame. Let's be on the building committee)
TS
It's "trollcrates," as in "Socrates." I think.
So that would be SOE krates? LOL! Actually, SOC ruh teez. I can't say "trollcrates" yet though. I'm working on it. TROLL kruh teez?
I'm the one who overslept on Sunday 'cause I was on the blog ...
Shoulda taken a nap like y'all did.
We all know that music is not the issue, at least not the central issue... But can anyone answer me this: what is the difference between hymns and choruses? What makes one one and the other the other? And why might one be good and the other bad?
Thanks,
TS
That's not my real screen name--hey, don't make fun of my makeshift screen name!
Based on having majored in church music (in a long ago former life) and having studied Judeo-Christian music history and hymnology at both a Baptist college and good ol' Tiger High -- hymns are older and considered "tried and true."
Praise and worship choruses have come out of the much more contemporary "praise and worship movement" of the last 30 years or so (many having emerged during the glorious days of the Jesus bands in California back in the 1970s, etc.) -- and are considered to lack the depth of the tried and true "hymns of the faith."
The only other major difference I see, as a musician and quasi-historian, is that many of those tried and true hymns were actually tavern songs before they had more redeeming lyrics set to their tunes. To this day, I have trouble singing, "Just A Closer Walk with Thee" for that reason ...
trollcrates,
Not making fun of it at all. I think it's clever. And believe me, folks, you don't want to know his real screen name!
NBBCOF
NBOF,
haha
Just an FYI.
The Personnel Committee members are: Aubrey Earnhart, Perrin Jones, Wayne VanderSteeg, and Bryan Miller.
The Investigative Committee is made up of David Coombs, Doyal Long, and outside human resources consultant Mike Stavropoulos, HR Mpact.
I believe that more than one of the Personal Committee members were members of the Communication Committee. Perhaps others might elaborate on the reliability of the information that was presented in the meetings and publication.
There were earlier post concerning the reliability of the information that had been presented to David Brown.
An entire thread had been devoted to the initial reactions of one of the gentlemen on the Investigative Committee to questions that were raised by a member.
The consultant that was hired had a previous business relationship with a member of the other committee.
Am I presenting a theory of conspiracy? NO. Let me repeat again. NO.
I am presenting that the selection process for committee appointments is suspect. I am also suggesting that the upcoming report will be subject to credibility issues because of it.
These are my perceptions and I would welcome the insight of others, whether they are in agreement or not.
Ju and Stww - your posts earlier this afternoon regarding Commercial Appeal reference to "indiscretion" ----
I suspect that CA was just using the terminology that Coombs used in the Dec 20 speech to BBC. It's still up on the church website - I verified that terminology a few minutes ago.
IMHO, CA's article today seemed to be just quoting from church website material.
maybejustmaybe
I'm not mad about your poem but the leader of the wrecking crew is Steve Gaines.
I'm so ashamed of our church right now, that I didn't even tell our new neighbor we were members, much less ask them to church.
When the big boys quit misbehaving and act like grown-ups, things may change.
I imagine much of the SBC felt like Dr. Rogers was wrecking the convention,too....
More on hymns and praise songs ...
Standard hymns tend to follow established patterns of meter and poetry (the Baptist hymnal has a "metric index," and my mother taught me when I was very young that you could swap any two songs with the same metric identity -- the words of one song with the tune of another, using that index). Did you know that the words to "He Leadeth Me" can be sung to the tune of "Higher Ground," and vice versa?
Most standard hymns follow a verse-chorus pattern. but the only thing that is repeated more than once is the chorus. "Love Lifted Me," "Since Jesus Came Into My Heart," and "When We All Get to Heaven." I miss those songs, don't you? I really do wish we would sing them more often.
Many of us get much of our theology from the hymns with which we were raised. "Trust and obey, for there's no other way to be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey." Who can argue with that? "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, sweetest name I know! Fills my every longing, keeps me singing as I go!"
One example of the difference in the two song styles is the standard hymn, "To God Be the Glory" (#41 in the "old" Baptist Hymnal, words written by Fanny J. Crosby, 1820-1915), as opposed to the more modern "My Tribute," which uses those very words in its chorus. "My Tribute" was written by Andrae Crouch and has become a standard song of the faith in the past couple of decades, but its origin was as a praise and worship song.
"Praise choruses" sometimes follow the verse-chorus pattern, but tend to be much more repetitive by nature. In other words, the same few words are sung over and over and over, sometimes ad nauseum (sorry, that's the middle-aged woman in me talking). Tomorrow, we are singing, "Friend of God," which is a very repetitive, but nonetheless popular, newer song. (Not only are the words of the song repetitive, but we seem to sing it a lot, as well ...)
Some praise and worship songs are antiphonal in nature -- the leader sings a line, then the congregation either echoes that line or sings a different one back. "Unto Thee, O Lord" and "I Will Call Upon the Lord" are examples.
Many praise choruses derive their lyrics directly from the Bible, and thus are very useful for those of us who have trouble memorizing Scripture as we should.
Not all praise choruses lack depth, though. "Majesty" comes to mind.
Despite the apparent detractors, some praise choruses have a rare beauty in their lyrics and melodies, and given time will probably become standards of the faith in their own right, especially among younger generations of believers.
trollcates,
My mistake. I thought there was an "r" in there. Now I have no idea how to pronounce it!
NBBCOF
My husband said my recent post could have been misleading.
Just in case there is any doubt as to my above post:
Steve Gaines began tearing down this church when he arrived. I believe he thinks he's on a mission of some sort. We try to stop him and WE are labeled troublemakers.
When liberalism infiltrated the SBC like termites, Dr.Rogers set about to stop that from happening. I'm sure, at the time, folks thought he was a troublemaker. Why couldn't he just get along with everyone?
He resolved to never give up truth for unity. We have resolved the same. We want the truth and the facts out there for our members while there are some left that care.
IF THE MEMBERS THAT CARE LEAVE THEN ALL THAT WILL BE LEFT ARE THE GULLIBLE - AND THE HOUSE THAT GOD BUILT THROUGH THE FAITHFUL WHO GAVE FOR YEARS BECAUSE THEY HAD A VISION. I was one of those people.
What a sweet deal for Dr. Gaines.
IS ANYBODY WAKING UP OR IS EVERYBODY JUST LEAVING?
I need a break........
Piglet, I'll continue to keep you in my prayers. As TS said, let's all commit to staying on the building committee. Let's serve there with all our hearts.
Satan is the head of the wrecking crew. Ephesians 6:10-20. We wrestle not with flesh and blood ...
for me it's not style so much as content..although I don't care much for a rock concert style...or the 7/11's...I'm more a fan of the old hymns by Isaac Watts, Augustus Toplady, etc...Charles Wesley wrote some good ones...O Can it be? comes to mind.
I look hymns up online sometimes just to read them...lots of good theology in some of those old hymns.
MJM
Thanks. I'll never turn down prayers from anyone.
You're right, ultimately it is Satan behind the destruction of any church.
I've just begun to feel a profound sorrow over the loss of something I have held so dear.
Thanks again,and God bless you.
I never learned "Wonderful Grace of Jesus" until what my dad calls my "unfortunate excursion into the Church of Christ ..." I absolutely love that song. We've sung it several times at Bellevue, but it's been a while. I also learned "O Sacred Head Now Wounded," and "Nearer, Still Nearer," which were both in our Baptist hymnal but were never sung, at least not in the church where I was raised.
It's also been a while since I've heard "All That Thrills My Soul" and "Heaven Came Down."
Sorry -- y'all stop me. I could go on all night ... and I'm sure you could, too.
Now there's an idea ... why don't we have an old-fashioned hymn request service? I'm not sure how we would pull that off with such a huge group, but it would be awesome, wouldn't it?
Or maybe a "special thread" here on the blog where we all post our favorite hymns? Whaddya say, Madame Moderator?
God bless you too, little pink piglet! Now, all this singing has worn me out -- I'm off to bed (so I won't oversleep in the morning!).
I'll leave you with the words of a praise chorus:
I love you with the love of the Lord,
Yes, I love you with the love of the Lord --
I can see in you the glory of my King,
And I love you with the love of the Lord.
And the words of an old "tried and true," as well:
Blest be the tie that binds
Our hearts in Christian love;
The fellowship of kindred minds
Is like to that above.
'Night!
MJM,
Thanks for teaching us. That's great stuff!
I once had a pastor who taught that of the three elements of music, the rhythm or beat appeals to the flesh, the harmony appeals to the soul (or emotions), and the melody, which carries the words, appeals to the spirit. I think that, new or old, music intended to worship and bring glory to God needs to speak to the spirit more than the flesh or emotions.
And, "Friend of God" causes a check in my spirit for some reason. I don't know why.
MJM, is it just me or have you noticed some strange harmonies in some of the old hymns we are singing? "Come Thou Fount" last week, for example.
If you have any more musical lore to impart I'm all ears!
TS
truthsleuth,
I think that "check" is because that chorus is more about "me" and "I" than God..jmho
AOG,
I agree...
NASS, you have mail...
TS,
I haven't been to a service in a long time but when we were there all the hymns were "jazzed up" and that probably accounts for what you noticed. I cringe everytime I hear Friend of God. I don't know if you would call that a "check" or not.
Diana
All of Grace,
I Still living.
I pop in real quick while watching saint's game; just change IV (for real)
Dont know flavor the koolaid is yall talkin 'bout, but we sing scriptures/hymns out of the Gadsby Hymnal...any yall heard of it?...once you get the hang of 'dem it is sugar for your soul! Truly hope all yall have good church tomorrow...somewhere...it the LORD's day, give it to the LORD...much grace and peace to all yall!
jake
Well...cringe or check..it just means something's not quite right.
AOG,
Do you listen to KLOVE and if so would you characterize most of the songs as "me" songs rather than truly about God?
Lady Di
jake,
Good to see you around..how's the pain?...getting any relief?
Di,
Call me old fashioned...I don't really follow the CCM scene.
Hey AOG,
I cringe a lot. And sometimes my stomach hurts. That is when I know there is a problem!!! ha ha
Gatorjake,
You are a hoot.
Di
email me some lyrics sometime and I'll offer an opinion.
AOG,
I used to listen to KLOVE a lot but lately I have been turning it off along with the tv.
trollcates,
If you are still on, I hope you will not judge all of us by some of the comments you are getting. I like your input. Sometimes it takes someone from outside to show us what we cannot see.
Diana
ez,
I just feel that God is worthy of worship just because He's God..not just for what He does/has done for me.
Ezekiel,
I agree that it is irreverant but I hear a lot at church and on TBN that makes me ill. I wrote this prayer down that Schuller said a couple of weeks ago. "Lord, we are ready, do it, Amen." I didn't even realize he was praying! It was weird. And yes, I know Schuller is nothing but a New Ager. They have some really great music on there and I watch that and then change it. After the Hallelujah Chorus, here was his comment - "wow" - Not even WOW!!!! Very irreverant.
We are doing this song for Easter that talks about how Jesus is our "new best friend." That one makes me cringe too. I have been a Christian for 30 years. He is not my "new" best friend. I think we should stay off the friend theme but there is that hymn "What a friend we have in Jesus."
AOG,
Who do you think you are talking to here? Karen??? I don't do song lyrics.
Di
All of Grace,
I have had more relief collectively in the last two days than I've had in the last 4 weeks, so I praise the LORD! I just have few crummy spells, but much more able to tolerate. I can read and write for good while and not be sick...I'm not choppin wood yet, but it gettin better...you get my mail, right? I know this not the place, but it hard to contain my joy...I talk to church already and gonna speak for them in couple of weeks LORD willing!!PGFWABF!!
No Diana,
I find most of y'all to be quite nice; you may not believe it, but I really relate to what you're going through.
What I learned is that fellowship strengthens your resolve, but one cannot, ultimately, tether their faith to anyone elses beliefs, agenda or path.
Don't you think the elder-led form of government is a function of the mega-church movement. The biblical model would be too messy for a church of 30,000, no?
Look, I gots a date (yippee), but I'll check back on y'all later.
blessings
Di,
That was cold :)
Jake,
Amen brother...make a tape if you can..I'd love to hear it. Praising God for your relief. Will continue to pray.
ez,
Amen. Jesus isn't my newest, bestest friend...He's my God and my Redeemer. Yea I like Fortner...coulda guessed he was Jewish with the name "Fortner". Powerful preacher though.
ez,
You got it..we ARE the Israel of God.
AOG,
I am ignoring you.
Trollcates,
I think we thought the 30,000 member church was being led in a biblical manner under Dr. R. This elder led thing is popping up in much smaller churches such as in Iuka, MS.
Diana
AOG,
It could have been worse. I thought about saying you aren't old fashioned but just old. But you see that I restrained myself, right? oops! Maybe not. All kidding aside - I don't mind praise and worship songs on the radio but most of them at church bug me. Some have more content and are fine. Others lack any content and are quite dull. So actually I agree with you on this one. Give me a good ole hymn any day!
Di
ez,
Check this page out..I think you'll like it...http://www.all-of-grace.net
Mr Wiley,
Your comments are example of what is sometimes wrong here. Let me just comment then I am through with dialogueing with you regarding this.
First, either you didn't read the context or you deliberately chose to ignore it in order to make your erroneous and mean-spirited point. I not one time said I was ashamed to identify with Christ. In fact, I have chosen to uproot my whole life, move my wife from a career that she loved for 25 years, leave my children and grandchildren behind in order to carry the name of Jesus into this pagan land.- THAT IS WHY I AM HERE!!
And, also my brother (and I mean that) I in no way implied your were not a Christian. And I thank you, because to the objective reader you have proven the point I was trying to make about the word 'christian".
May God's richest and most powerful blessings fall upon you and follow you. And may you know joy!!
really? I never heard of it before, but I've been out of the loop.
Woo Hoo!
diana hart wrote:
"After the Hallelujah Chorus, here was his comment - "wow" - Not even WOW!!!!"
WOW! "Hisservant/4545" must be Robert Schuller!
Di,
Contemporary isn't necessarily bad..all sacred music was contemporary at one time...like I said, it's about content more than anything...plus I like music that is more reverent..it should be a mix..according to scripture...praise, adoration, lamentation, reflection, etc...imho...and yea I'm old I guess...but don't remind me youngster...be kind to your elders.
AOG and Ez,
If we are the Israel of God, does that mean all the promises in the Bible - OT and NT - are for all of us? I heard someone (maybe Beth Moore) say that all these promises aren't for us. Some are for Israel and we should stop using them for ours. I wondered about that when I heard it.
Di
MJM wrote:
"It's also been a while since I've heard "All That Thrills My Soul" and "Heaven Came Down."
Ahhh, yes. John W. Peterson. They don't write 'em like that any more. Also, "Surely Goodness and Mercy."
jake,
If you're still around...I got your email and replied..did you get it?
Kingdom,
Well said, brother (and I mean that).
Otherwise, the way you expressed the first time around was clear.
kingdom,
thanks for your comment on my personal blog, and sharing your own experience.
piglet said:
My husband said my recent post could have been misleading.
Just in case there is any doubt as to my above post:
"Steve Gaines began tearing down this church when he arrived."
Response: That is a very strong statement and your opinion.
" I believe he thinks he's on a mission of some sort. We try to stop him and WE are labeled troublemakers."
Response: You base your belief of what he thinks based on your opinion that he "began tearing down this church when he arrived". That's like a double whammy isn't it?
"When liberalism infiltrated the SBC like termites, Dr.Rogers set about to stop that from happening. I'm sure, at the time, folks thought he was a troublemaker. Why couldn't he just get along with everyone?"
Response: Once again this is a poor analogy. Steve has been accused of "Warrenism", "illegal activity" etc. but I don't think he has ever been accused of not believing that the Bible is inerrant. Comparing apples to oranges does not bode well for getting your point across.
"He resolved to never give up truth for unity. We have resolved the same. We want the truth and the facts out there for our members while there are some left that care. "
Response: That sounds like you are willing to cause disunity to achieve your goals... which appears to be the removal of Steve Gaines as Pastor of a church where the vast majority seem to support him. (Those standing ovation/worship things many here continue to talk about)
"IF THE MEMBERS THAT CARE LEAVE THEN ALL THAT WILL BE LEFT ARE THE GULLIBLE - AND THE HOUSE THAT GOD BUILT THROUGH THE FAITHFUL WHO GAVE FOR YEARS BECAUSE THEY HAD A VISION. I was one of those people."
Response:I must be one of the gullible but I do care about the church. If you would just take a second and look at it from the other side, you might understand why people have said "if you're not happy, you might want to find another church:. There are many more people who support the Pastor than just myself. We see your side as the gullible who are causing division in " THE HOUSE THAT GOD BUILT THROUGH THE FAITHFUL WHO GAVE FOR YEARS BECAUSE THEY HAD A VISION. I was one of those people."
What a sweet deal for Dr. Gaines.
Response: I guess many of you really do believe that Steve has some grand scheme that he has been planning for years. That plan included uprooting his family from the home they have known for 14 years. Also, advancing from church to church in order to catch the eye of Bellevue when Dr. Rogers retired. That seems like quite a well made plan since it worked. I hope you see why many have a hard time listening to you as it just seems to be such a stretch for a lot of us.I don't know if that is just exaggeration on your part or if you honestly believe it. It is hard to tell.
"IS ANYBODY WAKING UP OR IS EVERYBODY JUST LEAVING?"
Response:
What's wrong with leaving? If I was as dissatisfied as many of you appear to be, I would find a place where I could worship without all of this drama. If I believed as you do, I would not have a vey worshipful spirit under a man that I detested so much.
"I need a break........ "
Response:
I think we all do. All we have to do is quit blogging about it and move on with our lives, but it's hard to when the man I support is repeatedly attacked. If I didn't think he was called by God, then I would have moved on by now.
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