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This is a copy of the "leadership covenant" that Bellevue required a parent/chaperone on a youth trip to sign. When she refused she was referred to Paul Williams. Before an appointment could be scheduled, PW was placed on paid leave for a "moral indiscretion," and no mention was ever made of the "leadership covenant" again. She was allowed to go on the trip without signing anything.
This document appears to be intended primarily for Sunday School teachers, but they seem to be using it for those seeking other positions or in this case, just a parent wanting to help chaperone a trip her child was taking with a youth group from the church.
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130 comments:
Nass,
Hope you are doing well. Please feel free to delete this if you want me to wait until this topic gets going on the stated purpose of "Bellevue's Leadership Covenant."
Thanks & God bless,
Bible-in-a-year.
Poster's, please don't allow this post to take the thread off of the topic which is: "Bellevue's Leadership Covenant"
Thanks
What does Genesis tell us so far about the evil of racism? ("slavery" as a topic is not addressed until later in the Bible.)
As inerrantists we are choosing God's words over man's words. And God's word says that the universe and life was created in six days. Thus, there is no such thing as evolution. (Let me know if you want some info on speciation or dating methods or fossils).
So the idea that some people are more "fully" "evolved" and some people are "less"... what is this?
This idea violates scripture. We are all descended from Noah and Adam.
Plus, this idea is impossible if we are inerrantists: there is no "evolved," either more or less.
Race is not a biblical concept. Only family (see Abraham's lineage), nationality (see "table of nations in Genesis"), and language (see tower of babel).
We must see past skin color, eye color, eye shape, hair color, nose shape. We must strive to see each other the way God sees us.
He sees us as we truly are and yet still loves us. That is the way he tells us to see each other.
There will not be a "Black" part of Heaven. Nor a "White" part of Heaven. Nor a "Oriental" part of Heaven.
The devil wants us to get caught up in racial divisiveness.
God has cursed us with multiple languages that is true. And that has led to the many nations we have. He has told us to go to each of those nations in his name (Matthew 28).
Final thought: The biggest problem with racism is dehumanization. This is violation of the second greatest commandment. When we find ourselves thinking other people are "less" than we are, we are in sin. We must love others as ourselves. We can and should and must hate their (and our) sin. But love the sinner.
Almost everything in that PDF has been required to be filled out as long for as I can remember if you want to work with the youth....those were implimented far before Gaines came. For the lay ministery application, you have to fill one of those one regardless of where you're serving in the church. That started with Dr. Rogers, not Gaines.
The only new thing is that "Leadership Covenant." What exactly is the "controversial" part of that page? Should we not hold our leaders to Biblical standards?
bible-in-a-year,
I've e-mailed you a couple of times in the last week or so. Drop me a line when you get a chance.
NASS
ace,
Do you have one of the old forms to compare it with?
Ace is correct is his 2:43 PM post.
I have personally volunteered in several areas in the church for several years. My first volunteer projects were in areas that did not deal with children. There was a very simple 1-page form that I filled out at that time.
In August, 2005, I volunteered in an area involving children and was asked to fill out the same forms as included in the one NBCCOF posted to begin this thread. I also furnished a copy of my driver license as a valid picture ID.
As to the "Leadership Covenant", I am sure we view the requirements for service on it in a differentlight today than we did in the pre-SG days. Under Dr. Rogers every one of those statements made perfect sense.
It's amazing how quickly we become suspicious and wary when we have been misled, disrespected and deceived, isn't it?
Mrs. C,
Do you have one of the old forms to compare it with?
What old forms? The lay ministery form? I promise you, it's exactly the same as it has been for years....
But, no, I don't have copies because everytime I've filled one out, I've turned it back in.
ema,
I am sure that it probably looks very much like the previous form, however, I would actually like to see one of those previous forms for comparison before I pass any judgement here. Does anyone out there have access to one?
Thank you.
bible-in-a-year--
Yes, and Genesis is where we find out the answer to "which came first--the chicken or the egg".
(The chicken)
Ace--
You are correct about the forms. I had to fill one out when I began teaching 4-year-old Sunday School, and another one when I began in the Bellevue Missions block parties. I really couldn't remember ever seeing a "Leadership Covenant" page; but, like you said, there is nothing I would not agree to on that page as far as what I believe. All of these were completed by me probably 5 or more years ago.
In the past I have never had to fill out any forms in order to serve. At the old church building I taught second grade SS, 5-year-old choir, and worked in the nursery once a month. No forms necessary.
At the new church building in the early 90s, my husband and I both worked in the nursery and did not have to fill out forms. However, BBC had adopted a child "ticket matching" system for the security of babies and children. They also had begun to instruct us on proper safe hygiene (hand washing, sanitizing, paper replacement on changing tables, etc.) when handling infants and toddlers due to not only simple health concerns but also the AIDS scare. Dee
Mrs. C,
I am sure that it probably looks very much like the previous form, however, I would actually like to see one of those previous forms for comparison before I pass any judgement here. Does anyone out there have access to one?
Again, I promise it is the same...others here are testifying to that. Nonetheless, I will search some of my files and see if I can obtain a copy of one for you. I don't think I have one, but I'll check...
2006,
You are correct about the forms.
Thanks.
I had to fill one out when I began teaching 4-year-old Sunday School, and another one when I began in the Bellevue Missions block parties.
Yep. Every single time you serve in a new area you have to fill one out. If you volunteer in E.E. or childcare or adults or whatever, you have to fill one out for each department.
I really couldn't remember ever seeing a "Leadership Covenant" page;
I believe that is new, as that's the first time I ever saw it...
but, like you said, there is nothing I would not agree to on that page as far as what I believe. All of these were completed by me probably 5 or more years ago.
That's good to know that I'm not the only one without problems with it. When people brought this up I thought it was a bad idea but now that I actually viewed the form, I don't think it's a bad idea...it sets the standards high for our leaders...which is exactly where they need to be!
ace,
I am sure you can obtain access. Thank you
They should take the tithe requirement out. That is Southern Baptist dogma, not the New Testament standard. If you teach the law, you better teach the whole law. The New Testament teaches cheerful giving, not the storehouse tithe.
ACE is right about holding our leaders to a high standard. That is why I am so befuddled anyone might consider allowing PW back on staff.
Like I said yesterday no one should be surprised. Dr. Gaines has a history of hiring those with "moral failures" for his staff.
Proverbs,
Like I said yesterday no one should be surprised. Dr. Gaines has a history of hiring those with "moral failures" for his staff.
That proves nothing. This "moral failure" happened before Gaines was on staff, so he is not the one to blame. He didn't hire PW, Dr. Rogers did. I'm not saying Dr. Rogers is at fault for this, because he isn't....I'm just saying your argument posted above isn't really valid.
I see nothing wrong with the form and I would have no problem with signing it.
ACE,
At Gardendale he hired a man who had been removed as pastor of his church for adultery. Steve hired him knowing what he had done bcause they were old friends. He put him on staff without telling the people of Gardendale. He is on staff there right now. That tells me he ignores the Bible standards for ministry. He hires and fires based on his preference and opinion, not on the New Testament.
Steve comes to Bellevue, where deacons cannot serve if they are divorced, and he threatens to fire if staff do not tithe. Deacons must tithe as well. He also has threatened women staffers with losing their jobs if they wore immodest clothing.
He will use the Bible standard when it suits him. He will ignore them when that suits him too.
This moral failure may have occurred before Steve got here. How does he know that? He is willing to take an admitted pedophiles word for it. However, regardless of when it happened, it is an absolute disqualifier for ministry in a church.
Maybe you can't see it. I bet others see my point.
Proverbs--
Yes, I would agree with you about the tithing requirement. That should not be required in order to serve. The serving could be "sweat equity" (in a light sense) for some folks who might be struggling financially at the time of volunteering but who have a sincere desire to be used by the Lord to serve and to help fulfill the great commission.
On your second point, it would be a double standard if PW is guilty (as he has admitted) and then is allowed back on staff. I would agree with you there also.
On your third point, do you know of persons SG has hired who have had "moral failures"? I mean, are they numerous or just the two existing ones that have been often mentioned so far and which he did not hire? Are you meaning that to also include "allowed to remain" but did not himself hire?
Dee
I'm saying he hired an old friend who was guilty of adultery at Gardendale. He didn't hire him to cut the grass. He hired him to serve in ministry. He still serves today.
Proverbs--
Okay, I see your post that appeared while I was typing. I understand the Gardendale hiring.
I agree with you that he does seem to "pick and choose" his convictions/standards, and this not only based on your statements here.
Dee
aSince Steve Gaines is going to be so legalistic on the Leadership Covenant (which includes the tithing statement) consider these two questions. Did anyone make Steve Gaines sign a Bellevue Leadership Covenant and after reading the following list(posted earlier), should we add any more statements to the Covenant?
--- --- --- --- --- ---
As it has been stated before, rarely do you see a pastor called to a smaller church with a lower salary? I'm not blanketing all pastors in this category. Most pastors ARE serving all across this nation and the world in small churches with very small salaries. Being called to pastor is always going to be sacrificial. Serving Christ requires a sacrificial spirit regardless of position. It's also important to state that all pastors at large churches do not fit into what I am speaking of.
Transparent churches regardless of size have nothing to hide. The churches that operate in secrecy are the ones that are probably fleecing their sheep.
Things to look for:
* Does the pastor insulate himself with a handful of men?
* Does the pastor create a mindset that it's better for the church congregation to not know what the pastor and staff is making?
* Do the same men or families fill the lay positions over and over as if they own the position or deserve it?
* Does the pastor have an attitude that he answers to nobody?
* Are tithes able to be spent without the knowledge of the congregation?
* Are by-laws not followed?
* Are members who question anything told to drop it or get lost?
* Is the pastor involved in financial gain?
* Are higher numbers in membership or giving used as a reason to justify wrongful actions?
* Does a church not have open business meetings for the membership to know what's going on?
* Do you have a small number of people inside the church spending tithes as if it's their money and not God's?
These are a few signs that are prevalent all over the Southern Baptist Convention.
This philosophy is straight from Warrenism. It's dangerous and it's destroying the church.
swtt--
You are absolutely right. All of your statements are excellent points.
My son just said yesterday that he thinks all pastors should have the smallest of salaries, live in a house that the church provides, and let the people of the church also give him things he and his family need.
I told him that it actually used to be more that way. That preachers lived in the "parsonage" which was provided by the church. The salary was small. Families invited the pastor and his family, if he had one, to Sunday dinner which THEY cooked at home, and members in general helped each other get through hard times. There was more opportunity then to practice the Christian walk in everyday life.
Things certainly have changed and not always for the better.
Dee
My husband and I taught a kindergarten sunday school class beginning in 1995 and we definitely had to fill out one of those forms. I really don't remember about the leadership covenant page but I do remember the next page--where you had to put your personal info, answer if you had ever been abused, etc. From my memory, this form seems identical. I also was under the assumption (or maybe I was told) that they did background checks on anyone who wanted to work with kids. VBS workers, childcare, everybody.
Scmom,
Thanks for the post. You are correct about background checks being done...they do in fact do that.
For those in doubt about the lay ministry form being new, I hope the testimony of all the other people tells you something about it's origin and that it has existed for years...
CJesusInMe,
Ace, YOUR argument makes absolutely no sense.
Actually it did.
SG left him on staff 6 months after he discovered this "moral failure" therefore SG should shoulder the responsibility for addressing it and not sweeping it under the rugs of Bellevue!
This shows your inability to forgive people. Yes, that was a mistake and I'll be the first to admit that...oh wait, second because Gaines already admitted he made a mistake. Are you willing to forgive him? A simple yes or no answer is fine. I don't want a lengthy post from you. Keep it simple.
Wake up and smell the coffee to go with those cookies you like so much!
I hate coffee.
My husband and I filled out forms like this (could have been exactly the same wording...my memory isn't 100%) when we volunteered in the Children's Dept. (1980's to present) and when I volunteered for VBS and to work with the Youth. I did check that I was an incest survivor, but cannot remember for the life of me if I was "interviewed" or not. I have tried really hard to remember, but nothing comes to my mind.
So some of you actually have a problem with this form?? What is the point of this thread?
4545,
So some of you actually have a problem with this form?? What is the point of this thread?
Judging from the responses in this thread, I can't remember seeing anyone object to it...most people are agreeing that it is fine.
CJesusInMe,
Already forgiven but not forgotten.
If you can't forget about it yourself, then keep it to yourself. I don't see a need for one to keep bringing this out to the public especially when you forgave him. By continuing to post that he was wrong (and everybody should realize that by now) let's move on...
"This shows your inability to forgive people. Yes, that was a mistake and I'll be the first to admit that...oh wait, second because Gaines already admitted he made a mistake. Are you willing to forgive him? A simple yes or no answer is fine. I don't want a lengthy post from you. Keep it simple."
When did Dr. Gaines admit he made a mistake on the PW issue? Or ask forgiveness?
"I hate coffee."
That's unAmerican
Well said Ace!
ACE said...
"This shows your inability to forgive people. Yes, that was a mistake and I'll be the first to admit that...oh wait, second because Gaines already admitted he made a mistake. Are you willing to forgive him? A simple yes or no answer is fine. I don't want a lengthy post from you. Keep it simple."
This is not about forgiveness. The issue is consequences for his actions. I forgive Steve, but there is a price to pay. As someone known on this forum said to me in an email: "But Jesus would forgive. If this argument works it becomes justification for the abolition of any kind of punishment whatsoever. What Jesus decides to do in God’s court does not dictate what we should do in man’s court."
I forgive Steve. I harbor no ill will toward him. However, I believe he forfeited the right to serve as pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church when he decided to ignore the Bible standards for ministry. He made this decision without informing the church or even the deacons. It was wrong.
Yes, I have a problem with the form because of the tithe requirement. That is the first thing that jumps out at me. I will reread it and comment further.
Hello all!
Thanks for all the prayers - I am mending quite well.
To me, the Leadership Covenant and Lay Leadership form are fine. We need to have that kind of form filled out by anyone wanting to work with babies, kids or youth. I think the big problem is this: The leadership at BBC requires all this information from its lay leaders before they have access to the children they want to work with while Paul Williams (after admitting to being a child molester) is still being paid a salary. I find that to be a travesty of leadership and poor judgement all the way around.
Karen
To my memory, folks have had to sign a form for a number of years. I don't remember the tithing thing being on the form I signed several years ago. I'd like to see a signed original form from a couple of years ago vs. the one now.
We do know that Steve Gaines has publicly said that he required teachers and soloists at Gardendale to tithe and that the church did check it. If the tithe wasn't there, they were not allowed to teach or sing a solo.
My question is who checks Steve Gaines's tithe? How would anyone know if he's tithing since only him, Mark Dougharty, and Harry Smith know what he's making at Bellevue. What nobody knows is what he picks up on the side when he preaches at other churches and what he makes off of his company "Hope for Your Future."
AllOfGrace,
When did Dr. Gaines admit he made a mistake on the PW issue? Or ask forgiveness?
He issued a statement...I think it's still up on the Bellevue website. It said that he know realizes he should have acted on the issue faster than waiting 6 months.
Now about coffee...
That's unAmerican
I guess I don't like coffee because I don't live in America...
cool, I have 2 Google accounts, but they are both me!
karen
Karen,
Welcome back. Good to see you again.
Ace said...
"Judging from the responses in this thread, I can't remember seeing anyone object to it...most people are agreeing that it is fine."
WEll, the verdict is still out on that Ace, you were to get a copy of the original, remember? There are quite a few who are waiting to see what changes have been made in the form.
When may we expect your copy to be posted?
ace,
Hope you're still here. I think I've asked you this before, but I'll ask it anyway. In your opinion, should a pastor who needs to ask for forgiveness every few months be allowed to continue to lead a church? It seems to me that Steve Gaines needs to ask for forgiveness every few months? When does this become more of an inept to lead issue? I understand we are to forgive 70 times 7, but shouldn't a leader of a flock be able to discern when he's just not cutting it in a leadership position? I know that my boss really likes me, but I also know that if I screw up on the job over and over, he's going to replace me, even if my heart is in the right place and I'm a good person. We know Steve Gaines has broken the law twice and had admitted to other "mistakes of the head" - when do these add up to grounds for dismissal, regardless of how nice a guy or how good a preacher he is?
karen
Karen!
Welcome back! Don't tire yourself out though! You've got mail!
Mrs. C,
WEll, the verdict is still out on that Ace, you were to get a copy of the original, remember?
I said I would attempt to see if I had one, I never said I would actually get one.
There are quite a few who are waiting to see what changes have been made in the form.
No changes have been made for the past few years. This form has looked exactly the same for as long as I can remember. Others have already testified to this. Why can't you just take my (and their) word?
When may we expect your copy to be posted?
Again, I never said I would post it because I'm fairly certain I don't have it. I said I would look to see if I have one. When are you looking for the date of origin to be, though? Last year, 5 years ago....when?
Ace,
A form dated prior to Steve Gaines arrival will be fine. And I know you can get one, or your husband can.
Karen,
In your opinion, should a pastor who needs to ask for forgiveness every few months be allowed to continue to lead a church?
I answered this previously, but I'll answer it again. Pastors are just as much human as you and I. They sin just like everyone else. Therefore, they must ask for forgiveness just like we must... Just because he is in a leadership position, more eyes are focused on him...but you see, he's just like us...prone to make mistakes.
It seems to me that Steve Gaines needs to ask for forgiveness every few months?
I bet if you really examined his life, he asks for forgiveness from people on a weekly (or at least monthly) basis. The same applies to you and me, if we profess to have Christ in our lives.
Mrs. C,
A form dated prior to Steve Gaines arrival will be fine.
The forms aren't dated. So if I got you one prior to Steve Gaines' arrival, it would look the same. There is nothing to distinguish the difference, if I'm remembering correctly.
And I know you can get one, or your husband can.
(1) - how do you know I can get one? (2) - I am a male, therefore I do not have a husband....
ACE,
Thou Sayest...
Mrs. C,
Huh?
NBBCOF,
Have you been receiving any of my emails? Or are you chosing to simply ignore them?
Hmm...I just sent it from another account now...please let me know if you get it.
After carefully reading the Leadership Covenant, I have some comments.
1. Who is this covenantal relationship with? God? Steve Gaines? The Deacons? Fellow church members? It's not clear from the form, but we know that a covenant is a mutually beneficial relationship between two parties.
2. I have the same perspective on the tithing requirement as others have expressed. Giving should be done cheerfully and as the Lord leads, not made to be the price of admission to serve God in a ministry He has called you to.
3. Supporting the "...total church program as led by the pastor and church leadership..." is problematic. Consider our situation today: the program is "let's just forgive everything and get on with it." How are we to stand up for truth and against error on the part of the pastor and leadership if we have promised before God to "support the program" come-what-may?
Someone said earlier, and I agree: this was not a problem before Dr. Gaines' arrival.
Don't get me wrong--I believe that all who serve serve should be held to a high standard of heart and hand. I have signed many Lay Misitry forms at Bellevue. It just seems to me that certain aspects of this covenant do not honor God.
TS
TS,
I have signed many Lay Misitry forms at Bellevue.
Could you please verify for Mrs. C that the lay ministry application has not changed since Steve Gaines got here?
ace wrote:
"Have you been receiving any of my emails? Or are you chosing to simply ignore them?"
Uh, yes...
No, seriously, I haven't received any e-mails from you, Ace.
NBBCOF
Ace & Mrs. C,
As far as I can tell, the LMA has not changed. I can't vouch for the other forms, however.
TS
Here are a few important changes that would help during these days of crisis in leadership:
I. Pastoral Accountability to the Congregation:
1. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... and any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
2. The giving records of the membership and the ministers on staff at Bellevue should never be for pastoral review in any shape, form, or fashion.
3. No church credit cards.
4. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
5. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else.
6. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
7. Removal from office of ministers guilty of sexual immorality with immediate coordination with the appropriate authorities if any laws have been broken by a minister (no matter how long ago), including thorough investigation of the matter when the minister’s conduct may have affected other church members or their children.
II. Congregational Church governance:
Some of the congregation has awakened to the reality that our church has a set of "lay-elders," a close knit group of men who manage to be appointed to key positions year after year. The rest of the congregation needs to be awakened.
1. Those who are part of this lay-elder "power block" need to step down from positions of influence for a long time. Bellevue needs “new blood” in these key positions.
2. There needs to be the signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services for the church. These people should not be allowed to serve on committees that review bids for their services.
3. Congregational nomination of and election of all of the Board of Directors as called for in the 1929 bylaws.
4. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. **The current bylaws mention "monthly" business meetings! When were they changed??
5. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
8. Thorough communication with the Congregation for ANY capital project well in advance of any vote. Building prayer buildings or any other type of building should be brought through proper channels to the congregation for prayerful consideration--not coerced "rubber stamping." [By the way, Dr. Rogers taught us quite a bit about prayer. As a matter of fact, I believe all of the current buildings ARE prayer buildings already. He and Dr. Whitmire also taught us quite a bit about worship also... but that's another topic].
9. Bellevue needs to reject Warrenism fully and finally.
10. Higher standards should be put in place for the hiring of "ministers." Seminary training should be considered a normal prerequisite.
III. Treatment of ministers on staff at BBC and members:
1. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members.
2. The end of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members; and the end of signing non-disclosure statements. All ministers who have been pressured or asked to sign such non-disclosure statements should be released from them in writing by BBC! Former staff should be allowed to address the congregation and/or the deacon body either in writing or in person without any fear of reprisal regarding their exit from BBC. Gaines has confessed to mishandling Dr. Whimire's exit... The congregation now needs to hear from Dr. Whimire--and several others--by letter or in person IN THEIR OWN WORDS. The congregation needs to know how their leadership has treated and is treating ministers who leave the service of our Lord through BBC.
3. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.
All in my opinion as usual.
We are to be “providing things honestly in the sight of all men” (Rom. 12:17). Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."
Can someone verify for me that we know FOR SURE that Steve Gaines broke the law? Have any charges been pressed? Do we actually have verification of what PW told him? It seems really irresponsible to me to say "SG broke the law twice" when in all fairness we do not know that to be true.
bepatient,
Steve Gaines broke the law when he trespassed over that fence - whether or not any charges where pressed is irrelavant. He admitted he did it. It is also against the law to not report child abuse. It just is - I'm not going to debate it. It is against the law. So that's 2 times he's broken the law - just because he hasn't been charged doesn't diminish that fact.
karen
As a matter of public records SG house cost $548,000 with a mortgage of $359,650. I thought pastor were to live as the majority of their church members. I don't think there are that many member living at Bellevue with $548,000 homes. Is this why he demanded a raise as soon as he got there?
ace said...
"Thanks for showing us that post for the 1,046th time."
Be nice, now, Ace. And besides, maybe newer visitors haven't seen it.
*tsk tsk*
NBBCOF,
Be nice, now, Ace. And besides, maybe newer visitors haven't seen it.
I was being nice. Otherwise I wouldn't have added the smilie at the bottom of my post.
I am not referring to the trespassing. I take issue with the word "twice"
Does anyone know the content of what was revealed to SG by PW? Do we actually know that he received reportable information? PW has hidden this for 17 years and I am supposed to assume he confessed the full extent of what happened?
Perhaps he didn't confess that his "failure" involved a child.
Now you can argue and say that SG should have done some more investigating, but since we do not know and we could sit here all day and think up scenarios about what was said -
The fact of the matter is that if the TRUTH is revealed that SG did not break the law (and I don't know either way, he very well may have) you will be guilty of breaking the law as well. Defamation is against the law. It doesn't matter the spirit it is done in. Writing things that are untrue and damage someone's reputation is libel.
Karen,
Steve Gaines broke the law when he trespassed over that fence - whether or not any charges where pressed is irrelavant.
Have you ever sped in your car but didn't get pulled over by the police? I'm willing to say that more than 5 times in your lifetime this has happened.
You are just as much of a lawbreaker as Steve Gaines. Just because you weren't caught those times is irrelevant. You are a lawbreaker.
No disrespect is meant. I'm just trying to illustrate a point.
Sorry, Ace. I missed it!
:o)
Excellent post + points, BePatient....
"Murmurers and complainers." That's what they think we are if we don't 100% support the pastor and everything he does and everything stands for, if we disagree with the new interpretations of right and wrong, if we call sin what it is.
This covenant is how they're going to get us out.
May the Lord have mercy on His bride
Charis,
"Murmurers and complainers." That's what they think we are if we don't 100% support the pastor and everything he does...
Maybe you could start something new on this blog. Could you list some ways that you support Gaines? The way I'm interpreting your post, you are implying that you support him some...
ace,
you're right about my driving record - I have sped and didn't get caught. But I don't lead a mega church either. And when I have sped and gotten caught, I've had to pay consequences. I've asked for forgiveness from God and the "system" (when I paid restitution for the infraction), but still had consequenses.
bepatient, you quoted from my post where I said "he broke the law twice". The fence is one time and by keeping the PW issue to himself is the 2nd time. This isn't libel - he's admitted to both - just because he didn't get charged (yet) doens't make the fact that a law was broken any less so.
karen
Karen,
He also broke the law by breaking the tax code when he co-mingled funds using Bellevue accounts on atleast 2 occasions.
Of course, the prevailing responses to this fall under two categories:
1) Even though he's been a pastor for 20+ years and is paid a HUGE salary to know such things - he just didn't have a clue, poor guy, and can't be held responsible. DUH!
2) Ok,so he broke a tax law- we don't care.
If you are going to talk about how much SG's house cost, how about Dr. Rogers'? I would think it is fair to say that he lived a lifestyle that was more 'comfortable' than most of the members. And we all know that not for one minute was he greedy or a lover of money. It is only what is in your heart that matters on that, not what is in your bank account. I could have $100 to my name and be more greedy and money-hungry that someone with a million.
Can we please please please stop talking about the trespassing deal? Please! In my opinion it is SO petty and getting ridiculous. He did it and said he was sorry. He meant NO harm. None. I have "trespassed" like this many times and many others on here have done the same.
Ace
Should we make a list of every sin we've ever commited as a christian, give it to the pastor, then tell him when he exceeds the lists of all the members THEN we hold him accountable?
Would that be fair? :)
Steve gaines is breaking the law right now by refusing to cooperate with an investigation. He should be open and want to get this cleared up before God and before man. Instead, he is messiong around with the state and refusing to cooperate with the law.
But, this is not the first time he has been a lawbreaker. He climbed that fence that was posted NO TRESSPASSING with some of his fellow bullies, to intimidate and strong arem Mark Sharp. Later calling Mark on the phone and calling Mark names and judging him.
I for one hope sg doesn't get away with his lawlessness. i hope the state stops him. No one else seems to be able to do it.
ace,
Please don't start in tonight. I've had a long day, the comments are loading extremely slowly tonight, and it looks like half of them are from you. Just chill a little, please?
You have a forum of your own to start new topics any time you'd like, and I'm sure others would be happy to go there to discuss anything you'd like.
Thanks,
NBBCOF
Ace said...
"You are just as much of a lawbreaker as Steve Gaines. Just because you weren't caught those times is irrelevant. You are a lawbreaker."
Yes, Ace, we're probably all lawbreakers. I surely am. But there are clearly degrees of seriousness. Ten mph over the limit on I40 because of a heavy foot is far different from going 100 mph in a 30 mph zone. That's why the fines are different. In the case of the fence business, four supposedly responsible men all agreed to climb over a fence and trespass. Surely there must have been some discussion about it. After all, fences, like locks, are for honest people. The operative word here is "willful."
As to the PW issue, we don't know exactly what PW told SG. We may never find out...could be a legal problem...my guess is that the assumptions here are correct because that's what makes sense. Nevertheless, there was some sort of "serious moral failure" and that alone, according to scripture, is enough to disqualify PW from the ministry. Look around. Most pastors will not only agree with that statement and many have acted out their agreement by taking hard but necessary action. I know of three cases personally and I don't know much. Leadership means making the right decision at the right time even what it's hard or inconvenient. Steve Gaines did not do that.
be patient
Dr. Rogers spent TWENTY-FIVE years more to save and acquire the home Joyce now lives in. Dr. Gaines wants his NOW.
What does Gaines want by HIS retirement - a small country?
4545,
Can you see how letting little things slide have led to this big huge thing now?
Just an observation.
karen
How hypocritical to run around trying to stop leaks with having everyone sign a covenant. I for one am sick of hearing about all these covenants decons or others are to sign for loyality to man.
Under normal circumstances I can see great care being taken to screen t4eachers, but when the leadership snubs their nose at the law, and doesn't submit to any authority, then how can they run around and have the flock sign this and that? If they can't keep God's law and walk roughshod over it, what makes them think they can run around and make their own man-made up laws and require anyone to sign it?
4545,
Can you see how letting little things slide have led to this big huge thing now?
Just an observation.
karen
Well, I am sure if I defend him on the tax law, someone here will follow him on the road and catch him speeding just to make sure you have something bad to say. So I guess there is no point. This just makes me so tired.
Regarding the covenant -
Reckon the leadership would have any objection if people added "as they follow Christ" after the statement about supporting the pastor and the church programs?
Just write it in pen and see them squirm...
NBBCOF,
Please don't start in tonight.
I haven't started anything. All of my comments have been sent out of love...I have been watching myself.
..and it looks like half of them are from you. Just chill a little, please?
Just because I am in the minority here, it doesn't mean I should post less...should it? I think that should allow me to post more because there are for example 10 people asking me questions and I'm trying to address all the posts...
be patient
I was wondering when you folks would get tired of defending him. It's a tough job and he keeps making it harder for you.
rod,
I agree with you - the State of Tennessee doesn't care about the state of Bellevue Baptist Church; they care about the welfare of children.
The only way Bellevue will be restored is that God will resolve it in such a way that no one on either "side" will be able to say it was anyone's "fault", but they will only say "God did it".
We all have to be brothers and sisters in Christ long after all these issues are resolved and if we keep tearing each other apart, there won't be anything left when God decides to move.
I'm feeling a little sick again folks, so continue to pray for my health. I'll be reading, but probably not commenting anymore tonight. It makes my stitches ache! :)
Love y'all - you too Ace - even if we disagree! <><
Karen
Piglet,
Dr. Rogers spent TWENTY-FIVE years more to save and acquire the home Joyce now lives in. Dr. Gaines wants his NOW.
Just curious...where did you get this information? Because it's my understanding that the house isn't even owned by the Rogers family.
I don't see why the topic of houses was even brought up....it must be a slow day here.
Everybody,
Please refrain from asking Ace any more questions tonight. :-)
Thank you,
NBBCOF
NBBCOF,
Please refrain from asking Ace any more questions tonight. :-)
Are you serious? You must be afraid that some of the truth is starting to get out and I am smarter than I seem. :) I replied to your email, by the way.
Have a great night, everyone... feel free to continue to submit questions via email! AcefromBBC@gmail.com - I will be glad to sort out the lies from the truth for you.
Ace,
YOU have a blog? How do I get there? Is it open to anyone? How do you find time to maintain it? What knids of things do you discuss? Do you get a lot of trolls? (Probably not).
Anyway, I'd like to have a look. If you don't want to post in the open, my email is on my profile.
TS
Sorry NBBCOF,
Ace, please disregard...
TS
Ace
If he didn't even own the house he was in, how does comparing Gaines' house to his even relevant?
My point is this:
If both houses are worth about the same (and I'd heard they were), shouldn't Dr. Rogers have acquired something by his retirement at 70+ years?
Gaines is coming in as a new young pastor and wants to START at a level at or above Dr. Rogers - without proving himself, and without working toward it.
Try that in the real business world.
Can we please please please stop talking about the trespassing deal? Please! In my opinion it is SO petty and getting ridiculous. He did it and said he was sorry. He meant NO harm. None. I have "trespassed" like this many times and many others on here have done the same.
There are many people at Bellevue that live in $500,000 houses. I could care less and that is none of my business.
Relativism
Sin is relative? Defined according to the lifestyles/choices of those in leadership?
Hummm... it was a "mistake of the head"...
or was it sin?
Covenant. Strong word. I personally wouldn't want to be cut in half. Sticking to the practice of letting "yes be yes and no be no" is a much better choice... unless we're talking of marraige.
NBBCOP
Sorry, just saw your note. You're the boss! :)
(I do wonder what truth Ace thinks he has exposed us to....)
Correction, NBBCOF
4545,
If he (they) meant no harm why didn't he just pick up the phone on the gate and ask to come through like a reasonable normal person would? What on earth was so urgent that it was necessary to show up at the door unannounced?
Just a thought...
TS
Piglet,
(I do wonder what truth Ace thinks he has exposed us to....)
Perhaps NASS can explain some of the posts she deleted of mine in the past few days.....and that's all I say. Also, you people hiding behind screen names....a lot of people know your real names....
I'll hush now...I promise... just leave my name out of the conversation and I won't post.
4545
See my 7:39 post regarding Gaines' growinglist of "mistakes".
4545
People go into business for MONEY. I thought the ministry was different.
Silly me.
To anyone who know me
I'm not ashamed of my stand for TRUTH and TRANSPARENCY. I do not, however, wish to be harrassed by the Gaines police.
So if you know me (and many do) see my confident smile :)
I'm not sure why saying people know who we are is supposed to make a difference. God knows who I even if other don't.
piglet said- I do not, however, wish to be harrassed by the Gaines police.
REPLY- ha ha ha! WOW
Piglet,
I'm not sure why saying people know who we are is supposed to make a difference.
What I meant by that statement was NOT because of the stand you are taking, but the way some of you have been treating other people. I am to blame partially for this too....we all are. But if you haven't notice, my posts now have a different tone to them...
ace,
noticed and appreciated.
I don't believe I have been disrespectful and I haven't been name-calling.
But some of the issues raised are just rediculous and it's hard to address such lame excuses seriously.
This is how I repond to my kids if they say "Everybody's doing it..." and they know better....
I didn't say everyone was doing it...I said 'some' :)
I'm off to the top thread!
Bye, Bye
David,
Once again more lies and inuendo! Come on Ace bring some facts.
What's incorrect about that post? Like I said, to my understanding it's true. If you have other information, then please do share...
I'm off to dinner, so I'll get back to you when I'm back.
Everyone does know who ALL of you are. We just wonder why you show up at church acting like you just love everyone and are worshiping Jesus with love in your hearts. Terribly sad. I pray for you almost daily.
You show up like you don't blog here everyday. Why do you do that? Why don't you hold signs or something. At least don't cover up your deeds on Sonday.
jamed
We show up and act like we do because our conscience is clean before the Lord.
We can worship because Jesus has not changed just because the integrity of our church has.
Why do we need sign if you know us anyway?
I can understand your anger if you have been hearing for months that a group of malcontents just want to get rid of the pastor and are making up lies. If I believed that, I would be angry, too.
In fact, we heard that for months and then decided to get the facts ourselves - which isn't hard to do when you've been here 25 years and know many of the folks involved. I just never asked any questions for awhile because I thought I could trust the leadership.
I love our BF teacher but I do not appreciatee his misrepresenting the facts to us all these months.
Isn't it possible you don't know everything?
bepatient said...
"This just makes me so tired."
reply:
go to bed
JamesD,
Please email me and tell me who all these people are. I am *DYING* to know.
Seriously...
TS
(my email is in my profile)
David,
Of course I forgive you. You've got mail.
I can understand your anger if you have been hearing for months that a group of malcontents just want to get rid of the pastor and are making up lies. If I believed that, I would be angry, too.
Ok, here it is. I can't prove anything and I hear sooo much about what you people say here. I hear the stuff you make up out of nothing and most of the time I just chalk it up to how juvenile everyone knows you are and I let it go.
BUT...I had to take a look for myself tonight...so I finally out how to post...I now have a blog?
Anyway, like I said, I can not prove what others have said even though some claim to have printouts.
If this is true I think you all are done with. Did you guys...actually I know who supposedly said this garbage....say that Dr. Gaines demanded Carter Threlkeld to bow at the alter Sunday, that he did it to make look like minister's at Bellevue kneel?
Do you know that Carter knows who said this. You people are....let's just say that people want to forgive you but you keep on and on and on and on.....whatever....I said I wasn't going to talk to this "blog"..I'm just really starting to feel sorry for you. Some of you have been long time members and your families were well like till all this.
phil413 said...
ACE posted: Just curious...where did you get this information? Because it's my understanding that the house isn't even owned by the Rogers family.
Reply: Once again more lies and inuendo! Come on Ace bring some facts.
Psalm 118:6
David Matlock
David,
I am amazed at the half ignorant half rude posts by ace and 4545. I have been watching this blog the entire time and I continue to be amazed that these people get on here and run their mouths about things they know nothing about. They are believing lies from the leadership, and I will even go so far as to say that I think ace IS married to someone in leadership or his daughter and for all we know, 4545 is as well. These folks come on here to spread lies and foolish jest and create strife. There must be some way the blog admin can block their IP addresses so they cannot create so much animosity amongst the brethern.
I think you guys are doing a great job getting the word out about the deceit and coverups of the leadership - ALL of the leadership. I would not be surprised if they ended up in jail where they belong.
Proverbs 28:13.
4545,
Are you Carter Threlkeld?
TS
So?
Is it true?
Anyone?
ace said...
Mrs. C,
I'm not going to even respond to your above post. NBBCOF, is that kind of post allowed here? I've posted far less nasty stuff than that and it got deleted previously...
Thanks for looking into this.
ACE,
You have no response other than an attempt to have my opinion removed.
I still believe that you and your cohorts are only posting on here to create strife in an attempt to make these people look bad before the world. You have your own blog and you only allow those to post that promote your agenda. Go home and leave these kind folks alone!
James,
Yes, somebody did post that a day or two ago....but later somebody told the truth and the original poster of that information apologized for her error.
Mrs. C,
Post your opinion all you like. It doesn't make it the truth. Post your heart out.
Cheers,
Ace
ace..
I did, Janie (or is it Wendy)
jamesd
Sorry,I've been away but I'm catching up.
Is what true?
Mrs. C,
I did, Janie (or is it Wendy)
Oh, man...you figured me out. I won't tell you which one of those people I am that way I still have 50% secrecy.
Have a wonderful night, Mrs. C....
jamesd
The original poster of this statement has abuse in her past. This issue, understandably, has her very emotional. As Ace said, she apologized.
Emotions run high on this blog because both sides feel the other is destroying the church.
I want the leadership to come clean. They should have had the parties involved in the issues (as far back as May) meet and settle things instaed of removing Mark from the deacon body and telling him to shut up. There never was a meeting and it's all gone downhill from there.
Our deacons have no power, whatsoever. They serve the Lord's supper. But they can't question anything that is happening, even when concerned staff raise questions and bring issues to them like they tried to with Mark.
piglet said...
"Our deacons have no power, whatsoever. They serve the Lord's supper."
Hello piglet,
On your above post - I am so disappointed in the majority of the deacon body for their lack of action as deacons, but moreso for their lack of action as men and members of the Body of Christ. The idea that they (or anybody) would knowingly serve and partake of the Lord's supper with this strife going on in our midst is out of the reach of my understanding. I do have aught against my brethern who have run rampant over their weaker brothers and have mocked sin and told blatant lies and displayed feined "apologies" when their feet were held to the fire. I have not in good conscience been able to partake of the Lord's Supper since Steve Gaines has been at Bellevue because I have felt that something was wrong - that check in my spirit as some call it. The more I find out, the more I am sure that Steve Gaines is not God's man for Bellevue, he is not God's man at all. Shame on him for his deceit and the strife he has brought to Bellevue and the Rogers family.
The Leadership Covenant is his way of demanding that we bow the knee to him. What kind of blasphemy is that? I fear for the consequences of his actions and the wrath that he is bringing upon himself and his family.
mom4
I agree.
If Gaines is part of the emerging apostate church, though, he may not experience God's wrath in this life.
Mom4
Regarding the leadership covenant I posted above:
Reckon the leadership would have any objection if people adde "as they follow Christ" after the statement about supporting the pastor and church programs.
Or would that not be committed enough?
piglet,
This is so very true and it very well be that this is what we will see.
I would rather see true repentance, honesty and surrender to be a servant leader.
Thanks for your good posts today!
cjesus...
Going to get some sleep after I check my email!
When I filled out my form to work in children's ministry 9 or 10 years ago, the tithing part was NOT on there.
Disclaimer: This is off-topic
There are two kinds of uses of science and technology.
1) God-honoring
2) not God-honoring
Evolution denies that the Bible starts out telling the truth as presented but is just a fable. Does that honor God?
1) Evolution relies upon the idea that new species are being created. That's called, "speciation" (alternate spelling: "s c i e n c e f i c t i o n.") And the dirty little secret of evolution is that speciation just doesn't happen. We can't even force it to happen. (Gene-splicing doesn't count because there is no equivalent natural process). There is no natural or man-made process known that can cause a new species to come into existence. Not heat, light, water, radiation, electricity, chemical baths, nutrient baths, pressure chambers, centrifuges, or anything else Darwinists have contrived. Mutation of viruses and bacteria is not an example of speciation but expression of existing variation in a population of cells.
2) Evolution relies upon dating methods that say the earth is billions of years old. These techniques are well respected scientifically, but ultimately they will always be just pure speculative theory unless somebody can invent a "time machine" (impossible) and go back millions of years to verify the calibration of these techniques. These techniques are all based on each other's results (house of cards), not on verifiable fact of conditions on or outside of the earth or physical laws like the speed of light more than 10-20 thousand years ago.
Theories like speciation and these dating methods that gain merit by how well they fit with other scientific theories amount to nothing more than intellectual posturing, one-up-manship, and "group-think" that seeks only to build up the reputation of men at the expense of the reputation of God.
To summarize:
1) Speciation doesn't happen.
2) There is no way to prove the universe is old enough to give speciation enough time to do what is claimed.
ezekiel,
I understand your thoughts better now and believe that we are in agreement. The Word is the ultimate authority in all things. Every book every written by anyone will eventually be destroyed by fire, only the Word will remain. We should never stop short of comparing every teaching and opinion to the Word.
Thanks for the clarification. I believe that I had misunderstood your original post and responded with a tone of harshness.
libertyinchrist said:
This BBC application asks "Were you a victim of abuse or molestation while a minor?" If you answered yes, the church would like you to then be counseled by its minister of molestation and child sodomy. In reality what it was really saying was: "If you were molested as a minor, we would like you to be counseled by our resident expert in perversion who is one of our senior ministers who sodomized his own son," because the Senior Pastor Steve Gaines who was in possession of this knowledge has every confidence in this man."
Response:
Wow, that's a little strong. Do you know that Paul Williams will not be removed from his position? Do you know that Steve Gaines has "every confidence in this man"? Those are some serious allegations.
"Steve Gaines and the leadership of BBC signed their own death warrant and admission of guilt with this clause: "This information will be maintained in strict confidence"...in other words we the leadership will not report this felony to authorities [which we are required to do by law] and agree to cover it up and continue to pay this man on staff a salary even though no services are being rendered for the salary."
Response:
I wonder if Bellevue might be concerned that a fired employee could sue, regardless of admission of guilt, if the reason for dismissal was not properly documented before the dismissal?
I will wait to see what the investigation/inquiry reveals before biting off more than I can chew.
piglet said:
"mom4
I agree.
If Gaines is part of the emerging apostate church, though, he may not experience God's wrath in this life."
Response:
Oh my word, do you honestly believe this? If so, why are you not getting as far away from him as possible?
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