Before you continue, I'd like to ask that you scroll down to January 7th's "Let's Continue... " topic and read the information in the top two sections (in bold red and orange, respectively). Then scroll back up to January 16th's "New Poll" topic, read and think about the comments referenced in the first sentence, and then continue. There was a lot of unnecessary trash that had to be taken out last night, and your cooperation in not adding to the volume would be greatly appreciated!
Many people have mentioned a "check" in their spirits about Dr. Steve Gaines and/or the things they perceived happening at Bellevue during the last year and a half. Whether you call it a "check" or a "catch" or a gut feeling or just a hunch, I've heard numerous people say they thought they were alone in their feelings and perhaps just imagining things. I've heard wives and husbands say they each felt "something" but didn't say anything to each other until months later. I felt it myself walking through the halls. There was "something" wrong, but I just couldn't put my finger on it. I felt like if I even scratched the surface of all those smiling faces that I'd learn all was not right at Bellevue. Finally in August I began to learn the truth and discovered it wasn't "just me."
Here are several people's accounts of their own "checks." If you experienced this phenomenon yourself, please consider sharing when your "Aha!" moment came and what prompted it.
And a poll:
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627 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 601 – 627 of 627I agree, there is no explanation that will make sitting on that information for 6 months ok. Regardless of the "reasoning," it should have been reported immediately.
I feel like I'm beating a dead horse though.
thanks for the conversation this afternoon. My darling husband is taking me to see "Sweet Charity" tonight for my birthday present. Molly Ringwald is one of my faves!
G'night!
Karen
AOG,
A lawsuit doesn't make sense to me either.
David,
Do you know what PW confessed to SG in June. If he confessed the truth and that is what we all think it is....I am right with you guys.
I don't know what the previous administration knew or didn't know. I lean towards believing that someone on staff knew.
maybejustmaybe said...
No, sometimes you let them off the hook. Those of you who are parents, do you consequence every single thing your kids do that's wrong?
If I see a harmful pattern, you bet I'm going to be all over them. Sure kids make mistakes. But if I see them making the same ones over and over, consequences are going to become more and more serious. We are going to look for ways to straighten up. And that child will have to make restitution and face consequences.
Does anyone know more info on the staff member who sued Bellevue? Was it for wrongful termination? What was the nature of the "moral failure"? Can we really compare the 2 situations? How long ago was this? 2 ministers that "left" under Dr. Rogers come to mind but I am not sure I have the right one everyone is talking about.
graceupongrace said...
AOG,
BTW, if you want a good ESV Study Bible, the Reformation Study Bible is excellent. They carry them at Borders.
Thanks for the suggestion. The BBC bookstore does not have an ESV study bible.
cjesusinme-
I was referring to the 5:52 post from overflowinggrace.
"Are you aware that in the past before SG, Bellevue fired a pastor for a "moral failure" and we were sued. We ended up paying him to go away. "
There has to more to the story. Churches are not under any labor laws at all. They can fire at will for no reason. They pay no unemployment insurance, etc., they are exempt from state and federal labor laws. They can pretty much do what they want.
That does not mean there would not be a 'civil' trial. Perhaps they did not want the publicity and settled. But they are under no obligation to even give someone severence pay.
Something does not smell right. I hope they are not trying to fool people on this by making them think they were 'protecting' Bellevue. Churches are already protected! they can pretty much do what they want when it comes to employees.
They did not have to pay PW anything legally. They could have fired him back in June with no serverence pay at all. The only thng PW could have done would be to file a civil suit and that would have only brought him embarrassment.
This is getting even fishier by the moment.
AOG/Westtn,
It's funny because Borders' theology section is 10 times better than Lifeway's. Seriously, have you ever looked for the theology section at Lifeway? It's tiny...
Esther,
Of course we are talking about a cival suit.
Karen said...
andrew,
Thank you for posting that section of the message. That's exactly what I heard. Was this from 9:30?
yes - it was the 9:30 service
graceupongrace said...
AOG/Westtn,
It's funny because Borders' theology section is 10 times better than Lifeway's. Seriously, have you ever looked for the theology section at Lifeway? It's tiny...
7:45 PM, January 21, 2007
That's a huge pet peeve of mine. Several of the Presbyterian churches have small, but jam packed, bookstores. Thankfully, we can order from the internet.
AOG,
The BBC bookstores does have a handful of ESV Bibles, but not the Reformation Study Bible.
I'm sure they are worried about lawsuits from PW or people that he counseled. Thats just the world we live in. It wouldnt matter who our pastor is.
At the 11am he restated the same word of caution but stated it a bit differently...
"Don't go up to somebody that you feel like has done you wrong and in some high-faluting way say, 'I want you to know I forgive you'"
overflowing, Nothing is making sense. On what grounds does PW have for a civil suit? He cannot sue for wrongful termination. A church can fire anyone they want. Can he sue for slander?
What on earth are you talking about that he has grounds for a civil suit. Personally, it just does not wash.
overflowing, if they are worried about people that PW has counseled filing a civil suit then they sure are handling this in a way to make a civil suit more winnable for the plaintiff!
Still, sounds fishy. Just does not add up.
About the "Check"
Dear Pastor:
If I cry -- would you turn?
Do you not trust the Lord?
If you trust, why did you lie from the pulpit?
Is it about God and His reputation?
Has His work changed your heart enough to clear His reputation, or just enough to clear your own?
Pastor - All praise to God.
Pastor please dont preach His word unless you are willing to stand behind His precepts. Your lack of clarity is scattering the sheep and blemishing His Holy altar. I pray for a true act of contrition.
Pastor - Our history: Psalm 43:3
In His name I pray. Amen
They are wanting to show that they investigated the claims and had good reason for terminating PW.
As far as the couseling victims, I can't see how they could loose a civil case if they were not aware of PW's situation. If anybody knew what PW confessed in June that would help as their could be a window of time where Bellevue might have some risk.
BR,
In the corporate world, folks that get into similar situations are always allowed to retire. I don't know what they will do here. That may be more of the reason why they are making their case as they know that PW will fight for his pension. There is a lot more to it than most people think and you can't make a knee jerk reaction.
Overflowinggrace said...
In the corporate world, folks that get into similar situations are always allowed to retire. I don't know what they will do here. That may be more of the reason why they are making their case as they know that PW will fight for his pension. There is a lot more to it than most people think and you can't make a knee jerk reaction.
Response:
Hey, the state's letting John Ford keep his pension even if he gets convicted on corruption charges.
TWO NEW THREADS HAVE BEEN STARTED!
1. THE TOP THREAD IS FOR CONTINUATION OF THIS DISCUSSION.
2. THE SECOND IS A "FAVORITE HYMNS" TOPIC DESIGNED SOLELY FOR THAT PURPOSE.
LET'S TIE A KNOT IN THIS ONE!
NBBCOF
The thought of either one keeping their pension kills me.
This replaces a post from earlier today. I made one small change.
I love my church said...
A man emailed me in December about the Rogers take on all this. Here is part of what he said:
"Do you believe Mrs. Rogers and the entire Rogers family would be silent if they were in support of the current Bellevue leadership? Don't you think they would put some of the rumors to rest? After all, the division in our church does not help Dr. Rogers' legacy.
I take their silence to mean they do not support our leadership. If at any time they had thrown their weight behind Steve Gaines and the leadership, much of the dissension would be over by now. Mrs. Rogers could stand up and vouch for Steve any Sunday morning and the conflict would die immediately. Of course not everyone would be happy, but they would go ahead and leave. I don't want to wage a war with Mrs. Rogers standing on the opposite side of the battle field. I would be among those to quietly leave and I would Mark and others to drop it and do the same."
Stop bickering over whether or not Dr. Rogers told Steve to resign. I know Dr. Rogers knew there was a problem before he passed away. We may never know exactly what he said to Steve. We can be confident the Rogers are not happy about the actions of our leadership and the direction of this once great church.
1:50 PM, January 21, 2007
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