Before you continue, I'd like to ask that you scroll down to January 7th's "Let's Continue... " topic and read the information in the top two sections (in bold red and orange, respectively). Then scroll back up to January 16th's "New Poll" topic, read and think about the comments referenced in the first sentence, and then continue. There was a lot of unnecessary trash that had to be taken out last night, and your cooperation in not adding to the volume would be greatly appreciated!
Many people have mentioned a "check" in their spirits about Dr. Steve Gaines and/or the things they perceived happening at Bellevue during the last year and a half. Whether you call it a "check" or a "catch" or a gut feeling or just a hunch, I've heard numerous people say they thought they were alone in their feelings and perhaps just imagining things. I've heard wives and husbands say they each felt "something" but didn't say anything to each other until months later. I felt it myself walking through the halls. There was "something" wrong, but I just couldn't put my finger on it. I felt like if I even scratched the surface of all those smiling faces that I'd learn all was not right at Bellevue. Finally in August I began to learn the truth and discovered it wasn't "just me."
Here are several people's accounts of their own "checks." If you experienced this phenomenon yourself, please consider sharing when your "Aha!" moment came and what prompted it.
And a poll:
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heardenuf said...
Dan Rather said:
"All of these men have been informed of the truth and they refuse to stand for righteousness."
Response: Whose truth? Yours, the blogs? What truth are you referring to. Maybe you have credible info. that you could make me aware of.
Response to hardenedenuf,
There is but only one Truth. It's not mine, yours, Steve Gaines, or this blog. Truth is Truth.
There is no right way to deal with truth but to acknowledge it and accept it. To turn your back on it or lie about it creates consequences.
I repeat, these men have knowledge of the truth and they have done things to cover up and hide it.
Craig Parker has never recanted anything. You may be one of these men you speak of.
Proverbs 23:9
overflowinggrace,
Dr. Rogers never said anything from the pulpit he was ashamed to have broadcast anywhere in the world. Being the seasoned broadcaster that I am, I can tell the real thing vs. a counterfeit.
Someone suggested a new website called "savingsavingbellevue." Well, you missed it. There was a short-lived site called "savingsavingbellevue." One lovely comment referred to Mark Sharpe as a hemorrhoid.
overflowinggracesaid...
"If Adrian were preaching a sermon series on Abortion and one of the local channels were trying to secretly film the service, you would be outraged."
overflowinggrace said...
MOM4,
You know that Dr. Rogers would not have allowed a news crew to film the service without permission.
overflowing,
The key word in your original statement is "secretly", which is the emphasis in your comment.
I dare say that the communications department would have been more readily agressive in stopping a film "crew" from secretly filming, if they had known about it. We are not talking about crew, but an individual member. However, had someone secretly filmed a sermon on abortion, and aired it, I very much doubt that Dr Rogers would have been unduly disturbed unless they took his message out of context, something that the current leadership is prone to do.
As far as discernment goes, it is a gift that comes with the seeking of honesty and truth thru prayer and the reading/meditation on the Word. There are different levels of discernment, some are spiritual and some are prophetical and some are worldly. I am sure there are other levels I am not aware of, but I suggest that you seek honesty and truth from the Lord and see which one He reveals to you. You may be enlightened more than you ever dreamed was possible.
overflowing said...
"You make my point. You were against SG before he ever came and you are the only one(or anyone who agrees with you) that has the gift of discernment. You have the gift of SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS. You are not the only one who knew Dr. Rogers personally. Your saying that you have a better gift of Discernment than Dr. Rogers had. You are annointed my friend."
Sorry to disapoint you, but you are sincerely wrong. I was not "against" Steve Gaines from the beginning and I am not "against" him now. I am 'FOR" accountability, truth and honesty from the pulpit and leadership, open meetings and congregational approval. If these are contrary to Steve Gaines' agenda, then I am against his agenda. The "check" in my spirit was the Lord's way of telling me that all was not well. If you will pursue the truth without partiality, you will see it too.
As far as Dr Rogers' discernment, he admitted that he was "duped" and went so far as to request that Steve Gaines step down. That was witnessed by more than one person and it will be revealed by them if the leadership ever allows them to speak to the congregation. There is a lot of information out there if you are willing to seek it without bias.
Please refrain from referring to Dr Rogers in a disrespectful manner. During the last months of his retirement, a time when the search committee (if you can call them a "search" committee-which is another thread in it's own) was working to bring Steve Gaines to our pulpit, Dr Rogers was undergoing medical treatment and had more than one concern in his life. He was beginning to show the frailty from his illness and I am sure that if he were alive and well today, the pulpit would look entirely different. The sins that have been committed from the pulpit and leadership (as well as the membership)will be revealed because the Lord will reveal them in His time.
Mom4,
Please check your email
Anybody,
I could not make service today - can someone give me a thumb nail sketch of what was shared.
Thanks
Bepatient,
I personally don't know anything about the "Members Only" site on the "savingbellevue.com" blog. I saw it; I was curious; but I never went there and never asked about it. "Curiosity killed the cat" was what my mother always said. So, I just decided to leave that one alone.
Also, I think it was you who said that "Memphis" was being ignored about the question. I saw a couple of people on here respond that they did not know what it was for. That may not have been the answer that was desired; however, it is the exact same one I have to offer since I do not know either. We are not all "thrill seekers" or "inquiring minds" on this blog.
Dee
overflowing said...
Mom4,
If Dr. Rogers asked Brother Steve to step down on the several occasions that you mentioned and Steve refuses to honor those request, why want Mrs. Rogers stand up and say that. It seems she would shout it from the roof tops. Thats why I dont believe it happened. It's not enough to make that claim and say that somebody MIGHT come foward and confirm it."
MOM4 said...
"That was witnessed by more than one person and it will be revealed by them if the leadership ever allows them to speak to the congregation."
Overflowing,
Why don't you ask WHY those with knowledge are not allowed to address the congregation or deacons? You will have your answer then.
And I have not left and do not intend to unless the Lord moves me..sorry.
overflowinggrace said...
Mom4,
"Give me one example where I was disrespectful to Dr. Rogers."
To address a man of his stature and position on a first name basis without being a close personal friend to him is a show of disrespect for the man and his position, even if he is no longer with us. If you WERE a close personal friend of his, you would see things differently.
overflowinggrace said,
You are so full of yourself. I am so thankful that you no longer attend Bellevue, its a much better place.
Who exactly are you overflowing with grace toward?
overflowinggrace wrote:
"New BBC Open Forum,
"Do you have a question?"
No, not anymore. The answer's painfully obvious. Thanks.
overflowinggrace....
Is an oxymoron....
MOM4 answered all your questions. Go back and reread them - and write with some thought instead of malice why dont ya!
Never mind me. Just taking out the trash.
NBBCOF
I am a bit shocked. Tim made an astounding annoucement and most are ignoring him.
I applaud you, Tim, for acting like a man. Not spending your time going around and around with those who come here whose only purpose is to
throw stones at every comment. Their comments remind me of snide teenagers. "Prove it", "And how do you know", etc., etc., ad nauseum.
There is going to be some speculation because your leadership thinks it is THIER church and not Christ's.
Most of the Gaines supporters do not believe that sins are real sins that God hates. They do not see it. They DON'T want to see it. They would rather believe in this 'annointed' heresy and ignore the facts of regeneration and sanctification.
Bottom line: Christians love truth. Christians act like Christians. That may mean they demand accountability. But if you all are REALLY baptists, then you would belive in the priesthood of the believer and stop all the 'annointed' silliness.
Tim, blessings to you for taking action.
Someone mentioned on this thread that Gaines reminded them of Bill Clinton. When I saw the youtube video, that was my first thought. He 'feigns' just like Clinton.
And don't forget, 30% of those who voted for Clinton the SECOND time were professing evangelicals. People are fooled all the time.
Everyone is watching this closely. If Gaines does not come out on top with the flagship church of the SBC, where can he go for 400,000 a year and all the perks we have seen? Expect a behind the scenes dirty fight. He has already shown what his true character really is.
Mrs. c,
Exactly!
Dee
Esther,
You, too, are exactly right!
Dee
New BBC Open Forum said...
"Never mind me. Just taking out the trash."
You are going to need an eighteen-wheeler to haul this load off.
new bbc open forum,
Excellent decision. It wasn't seeming like Sunday until you came along.
Dee
Overflowing....with anger....,
The solution is simple: Start your own blog.
Thank you Esther.
NASS, You've got mail.....
overflowing with anger wrote: Esther,
"We know what sin is. You are no more of a Christian than I. "
That statement just proves the opposite. It is a very 'worldly' statement.
overflowinggrace said...
MOM4,
"Answer my question? Why will the people that witnessed Dr. Rogers ask SG to step down stand up and identify themselves and tell us all."
Hmmm, I though I did already. Why don't you go back and READ what I wrote with a clear head and heart. These people need to speak in person. Anyone can say anything on this blog - as you well know. Their identity will be denied by folks like you who are not willing to believe the truth but are defending lies. Seek the answer with the leadership and find out why they won't allow these people who know the truth to speak in person.
I will not further respond to your aggression until you do.
If Mrs. Rogers said that she heard Dr. Rogers ask SG to step down, I would believe her.
So would I. Now, can we drop it?
Esther,
How was my comment worldly
Overflowing,
I have no intention of getting into a boxing match of words with you. The fact you wrote it tells me all I need to know.
I've got all afternoon, but Esther said she's about to leave the building. Why don't you do the same?
ILMC,
I agree we can speculate all day about what Dr. Rogers may or may not have said and to whom he may have said it and if he did, why they have chosen not to come forward with that information, but what's the point? It serves no purpose except to bring pain to his family, and it has no place here.
Thanks,
NBBCOF
It's crucial to the debate. If you are going to make these bold claims then you should be willing to back them up with your good name.
What's the end game at this point. When do you give up and walk away.
AOG,
I apologize...I am just as much of a sinner as yourself. My words are no worse than Fedup or Rod Almond Martini.
What's the end game at this point. When do you give up and walk away.
My answer: If the truth is allowed to finally come out and the majority of the church still will not accept we need a change in leadership, then my family will give up and walk away. As long as they hide the full truth, I am staying and fighting. A HUGE group of others will do the same.
ILMC,
I and a lot of others will be standing right there next to you. And walking right behind you if and when that day should come.
NASS
I love my church,
My fear is that we already have a split, it's just a matter of who is moving out. Unless something comes out over PW that changes my mind.
heardenuf said...
piglet said:
Building a set for Donna to make "Beth Moore" type videos to sell - profit goes to SG's company.
Response: Because you say it is so? Could it be that "the set" is also used for Stev and his intros to the tv broadcast? What is SG's company. Is it like LWF?
-------
The 2nd floor TV studio is where SG is filmed for the BBC show - not the fellowship hall.
But the church has spent a good deal of money and time to get the FH ready to record from the 2nd floor master control.
Wonderful sermon at BBC this morning. Anybody else hear it?
mjm,
We were in the nursery..missed it.
mjm,
I heard it- it was great!!!
I love my church said...
What's the end game at this point. When do you give up and walk away.
My answer: If the truth is allowed to finally come out and the majority of the church still will not accept we need a change in leadership, then my family will give up and walk away. As long as they hide the full truth, I am staying and fighting. A HUGE group of others will do the same.
2:02 PM, January 21, 2007
Ditto!
Andrew
We definitely have a split. There is no other way to see it. I believe most would want the pastor and the leaders to resign if they knew the whole truth. My side should not leave until the truth is known. They should demand the truth and hold their leaders accountable to make the truth available.
If, once the full truth has been revealed, the majority of BBC do not care what Steve and other leaders have done, then I won't walk away I will run. At that point I will know Bellevue is willing to compromise truth and integrity and not the place for me. Right now too many at Bellevue have formed their opinion based on distortions and outright lies.
Overflowing, Forgive me, I should not have answered you in that way. You asked me how that statement was worldly, so I should tell you even though you may not believe me and want to argue about it. I won't argue anymore but here is the explanation:
Comparing your Walk with Christ to other Christians is totally against His Word. Our standard is Jesus Christ. Period.
If we compared our fruit, I would be totally inadequate. I am totally depraved. I do things I do not want to do and say things I do not want to say. Then I moan and groan under the weight of all the sin I have in my heart. Every day is a day of continuous repentance. I am so depraved that I do not know how God can stand me.
I want to hate everything that God hates. And I want to love what God loves. I want to be broken and humbled so I can truly follow Christ. I want to submit to leaders who are broken and humble and know how depraved they really are. That is why we cannot look to leaders for what being a follower of Christ looks like. We must look to Christ.
overflowinggrace said...
mjm,
We were in the nursery..missed it.
2:11 PM, January 21, 2007
-------
That's ok we forgive you.
What age group do you look after?
Andrew
bepatient,
Please elaborate on what you believe were the greatest points of this mornings service.
The problem that you guys have is that you need evidence to back up your claims. I say this in all seriousness. These claims by unknown members will never sway me.
Under 5
If anyone is interested you can go here and see the outline of this mornings sermon.
Sermon Outline
Nicely stated Esther.
.
The sermon was another self-serving sermon that presented half the story. Yes, God forgives. He also judges.
Just because he preaches on forgiveness does he expect us to forget what he has done? Also, God forgives only after we repent. Steve is not sorry for what he has done. He has issued a few half-hearted apologies. However, he is still sticking to many of his lies. There is much he is not repentent for. If he suddenly gets repentent it will be way too late.
There were plenty of interesting nuggets in today's sermon. I will let others dissect it.
Brother Steve, why have you started reading from the New Living Bible? Today was the third time in recent weeks you did it. We can handle the real thing. Please stop using a dumbed-down, gender neutral Bible.
Tim,
Thanks for your hard work and follow-through.
Blessings to you sir.
Andrew
Esther,
I don't disagree with that.
Thanks!!
Hello All,
I took the night off last night and it looks like it was a good thing I did - too intense for me.
One thing that stood out to me was a post from WWJD about a list SG kept on Mike Spradlin's "ignoring" Donna and the girls when they were at the same events - go read it for yourself, I'm paraphrasing. Then SG going to Mike, demanding apologies and Mike apologizing. THen SG going back to ask forgiveness from Mike - weird to say the least.
After listening to the sermon this morning about forgiveness - didn't Steve say if you feel you've been slighted, but the person who slighted you didn't know that they did, you're not supposed to go to that person to ask forgiveness? Did I hear that right? Based on the above paragraph, I hope Steve learned that while prepping today's message.
TROLLCATES, Wonderful to meet you! I hope we can get together next week for church again. Randy says he enjoyed the conversation.
ACE, FYI - during baptism at 9:30 a guy was taking digital pictures of the baptism - looked like a proud papa to me - apparantly everyone hasn't gotten the directive about no pictures, video or taping the services. Or does this directive only apply to certain people? Just wondering.
HEARDENUF - Glad to see you got your answer on the $25,000 not getting prayed over by the Finance Committee before it was given to FUMC. Wayne Vandersteeg took responsibility and Harry Smith admitted they FC did not pray - see, belive us - we know what we're talking about. :)
karen
Steps to forgiveness (from this morning's sermon):
1. Admit it.
2. Quit it.
3. Commit it [to God].
4. Forget it.
How about 3a? Pay the earthly consequences (debt).
It was a good sermon. I guess he just didn't have quite enough time to finish it. God's forgiveness (and mine) aren't the same as paying the earthly consequences for sin. Just ask Karla Faye Tucker about that one. I recall Pat Robertson and a handful of other TV preacher types wanted everyone to "forget" about that unfortunate "pickax failure," too. The state of Texas just couldn't find it in their hearts to "forgive" her though, and Karla Faye paid her debt to society. Did God forgive her? By all accounts, yes. Did I? I never really gave it much thought as I didn't know her or her victims. (That's like asking if I forgave Saddam Hussein. Whether I did or not, he certainly paid his debt to society, and I doubt he found 72 virgins awaiting him on the other side either, but I digress.)
This is the difference between "forgiveness" and "consequences." Or as someone said last night, that's comparing apples to oranges to say there should be no consequences for our actions. God's forgiveness (and ours) doesn't negate the reality of consequences.
Why should a confessed child molester be allowed to remain in a ministerial position on staff when a divorced man (or for that matter a woman, whose only "sin" was being born with two X chromosomes) cannot serve as a deacon? Even the "new math" can't justify that one.
didn't Steve say if you feel you've been slighted, but the person who slighted you didn't know that they did, you're not supposed to go to that person to ask forgiveness? Did I hear that right?
I'm curious about if Steve said this this morning. Anyone else hear it? If he did say it, I find it very interesting... for the same reasons you mentioned, Karen.
"Brother Steve, why have you started reading from the New Living Bible? Today was the third time in recent weeks you did it. We can handle the real thing. Please stop using a dumbed-down, gender neutral Bible. "
Amen! Using these 'paraphrases' is part of the GCM strategy of dumbing down.
In my SS class, a few people were bringing in the NLT and Message. As we read through each verse of Hebrews using such translations as the NIV, NKJV or ESV, each one who had a paraphrase kept saying: Mine does not say that!
Duh.
there are some great tools out there on the net to show how most of the really piercing verses are dumbed down in these translations. Worth the time to research this. When I did, I threw away my Message Bible.
BTW: I love my new ESV!
God does judge, but that was not what this particular service was about. Sermons usually do need to focus in on one thing at a time or we would still be sitting there.
ILMC said:
"There is much he is not repentent for. If he suddenly gets repentent it will be way too late. "
I wasn't aware the the Bible placed time parameters on repentance?
Tim, I will email you a response to your question.
socwork,
The way I heard it said was:
If someone has done something to you that hurt you, but that person has no idea that they hurt you, don't go to them and say "I forgive you for _______" because you might open up a whole new problem. But you can forgive, or ask God to help you forgive, that person and let it go.
I hope I got this right. Please someone back me up or correct me. Thanks!
karen
Was there any type of announcement related to the investigation after the services this morning? I didn't go so I am not sure what happened.
bepatient,
Since you're here, I'll ask you: you know the story about someone coming to me to ask forgiveness, right? Was he wrong to do that?
I actually got blessed that this person did that, do you think God wanted me to miss out on that blessing?
Karen
He was referring to a person who sanctimoniously says, "I forgive you" (in a manner that communicates some kind of spiritual superiority) in order to preface the "dressing down" of another for an offense. He was not saying we should not go to someone who has offended us -- he was addressing the manner in which we should approach someone in that situation.
Hope this helps.
koragg,
Not at 9:30.
karen
aog,
It's after the 3rd point "We need to extend God's forgiveness"
Thanks!
karen
I will use give you an example of what I took it to mean- I have a friend who is always telling me things I am doing "wrong"- spiritually, in parenting, etc. Her intent is good but her presentation is bad. Even though some of the things are hurtful, since I know the intent and context, there is no reason to bring it up. I need to move on and forgive her. I think that is what he was referring to as the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation. Sometimes we do need to have both, but there are occasions that we need to just forgive in our hearts and move on.
I do not believe he was trying to imply we should NEVER seek reconciliation. Just that it is not always called for.
And it if is something you need to talk to someone about and seek reconciliation, it is best to do it having already forgiven them.
msybe,
I didn't get that at all - were you in 9:30 or 11:00 service? He didn't say anything about the manner in which you go - not at 9:30. He said don't go because you'll open up other issues. I just know what I heard; I'm not trying to argue.
Karen
aog, If you are planning on staying at BBC, may I be so bold as to suggest this special 'edition' of the ESV?
http://www.gnpcb.org/product/1581346387
(Sorry blogmeister, the html is not working...engine error)
Karen, I do not think that he was wrong to do that, he felt a specific prompting in his heart to do so.
I don't think the intent of the message was to say you should never go to the person, but you shouldn't do it if is just an excuse to tell them how you feel or because you want a certain reaction from them.
In your case particularly, I think that the reason that there was an approach is because he not only had a desire to forgive you and ask forgiveness, but to reconcile as a church family. But imagine you were someone not known to him personally- it might have come across in a very different way.
I can't remember if it was on the telecast this morning, or online, but I did hear Gaines say tell everyone to read along with him and to read whats on the screen, not in their bibles so they would all be reading the same thing.
BTW, Thats the one thing thats always baffled me....Which translations are more accurate?
11:00 service.
He was definitely referring to demeanor in what I heard. Perhaps he didn't say it as well at 9:30 and expressed it better the second time.
I took it as similar to saying you shouldn't say, "I love you, but ..." -- because the "but" negates whatever came before it.
"I forgive you, but... let me tell you what you did to make me mad, offend me, etc." This could definitely communicate that true forgiveness has not taken place after all.
Speaking of that though Karen, I am sending you email any minute now....
How can we know when it is best to forgive or confront?
by
John MacArthur, Jr.
All Rights Reserved
That's a good question because most people seem to err on one side or the other. Some people think it is best to overlook every offense and take pride in their tolerance. However, Paul confronted the Corinthians for tolerating sin in the church and rebuked them for failing to deal with a man living in sin (1 Cor. 5).
On the other side of the issue are people who confront over any slight infraction and make themselves intolerable. Are there any biblical principles to help us make the right choice? Yes! Here are six guidelines to help you know whether to forgive or confront.
Whenever possible, especially if the offense is petty or unintentional, it is best to forgive unilaterally. This is the very essence of a gracious spirit. It is the Christlike attitude called for in Ephesians 4:1-3. We are called to maintain a gracious tolerance ("forbearance") of others' faults. Believers should have a sort of mutual immunity to petty offenses. Love "is not easily angered" (1 Cor. 13:5, NIV). If every fault required formal confrontation, the whole of our church life would be spent confronting and resolving conflicts over petty annoyances. So for the sake of peace, to preserve the unity of the Spirit, we are to show tolerance whenever possible (see 1 Pet. 2:21-25; Mat. 5:39-40).
If you are the only injured party, even if the offense was public and flagrant, you may choose to forgive unilaterally. Examples of this abound in Scripture. Joseph (Genesis 37-50), David (2 Sam. 16:5-8), and Stephen (Acts 7:60) each demonstrated the unilateral forgiveness of Christ (Luke 23:34).
If you observe a serious offense that is a sin against someone other than you, confront the offender. Justice never permits a Christian to cover a sin against someone else. While we are entitled, and even encouraged, to overlook wrongs committed against us, Scripture everywhere forbids us to overlook wrongs committed against another (see Ex. 23:6; Deut. 16:20; Isa. 1:17; Isa. 59:15-16; Jer. 22:3; Lam. 3:35-36).
When ignoring an offense might hurt the offender, confront the guilty party. Sometimes choosing to overlook an offense might actually injure the offender. In such cases it is our duty to confront in love (Gal. 6:1-2).
When a sin is scandalous or otherwise potentially damaging to the body of Christ, the guilty party should be confronted. Some sins have the potential to defile many people, and Scripture gives ample warning of such dangers (see Heb. 12:15; 3:13; 1 Cor. 5:1-5). In fact, Scripture calls for the church to discipline individuals who refuse to repent of open sin in the body, so that the purity of the body might be preserved (Matt. 18:15-20; 1 Cor. 5).
Lastly, any time an offense results in a broken relationship, confrontation of the sinner should occur. Any offense that causes a breach in relationships simply cannot be overlooked. Both the offense and the breach must be confronted, and reconciliation must be sought. And both the offended party and the offender have a responsibility to seek reconciliation (Luke 17:3; Matt. 5:23-24). There is never any excuse for a Christian on either side of a broken relationship to refuse to pursue reconciliation.
The only instance where such a conflict should remain unresolved is if all the steps of discipline in Matthew 18 have been exhausted and the guilty party still refuses to repent.
Dear fellow brothers and sisters: Now that the BBC Investigative Committee has completed their work, I wonder if the Personnel Committee will address two issues?
Will there be an admission that there has been a policy manual/proceedure in place at BBC since 2001 to deal with this very issue?
Will there be an admission that the DCS conducted a seminar/trainning session at BBC last year about this time on the proper reporting of this issue? Why wasn't the leadership required to be in attendance also?
If the answer to etiher one of those questions, is yes, then why wasn't either of them followed in June? Saying one was not aware or did not know the law is unacceptable.
Please be in prayer this week as the Personnel Committee does their work. This cannot be an easy task. I beg the Committee to display total truth and transparency. That is the only way you can begin to have healing with regards to this horrible thing. Too many of our church family have been hurt over the handling of this.
As I said earlier, please be in prayer.
David Brown
SNAP coordinator for West Tennessee and Memphis
bepatient,
Thanks for the response - it makes sense because it happened to me. I think the point could have used more elaboration on Steve's part, but I guess people can apply it as God leads.
Thanks!
karen
NASS,
This is from LWF Daily Devotional. I read it after your Karla Faye Tucker post and thought it applied. Karen
2 Corinthians 5:21
DEVOTIONAL THOUGHT:
God will never overlook sin. He cannot. God is holy, and by His holiness He has sworn that sin will be punished. If God were to let one half of one sin go unpunished, God would no longer be holy. The chief attribute of God is not love - it is holiness. The cross is God’s way to punish sin and forgive the sinner at the same time. He who knew no sin, God has made to be sin for us. The price that Jesus paid only the damned in hell can begin to know, but even they’ll never know because they’re only paying their sin debt. Jesus paid for all the sin of all of the people for all time.
thanks maybe,
Sounds like he did elaborate at 11:00. Nice to both be right, huh? :)
karen
karen,
mail is sent.
Every bbc emp I have spoken with agrees that pw needs to go and soon. I guess both sides are in agreement on at least one thing. I have forgiven pw in my heart and I pray for him and his family. But he does need to go.
ILMC said:
"There is much he is not repentent for. If he suddenly gets repentent it will be way too late. "
I wasn't aware the the Bible placed time parameters on repentance?
I think you know what I meant. Nevertheless I will explain it. I meant it will be way too late to remain as pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church. Unless God has given a man over to his reprobate mind, it is never too late to receive forgiveness.
David, what you report is very shocking. They had training on this issue at the church? I am assuming it was something along the lines of how to handle it if you suspect abuse. Many organizations do this with abuse and sexual harrassment.
David, Years ago, I was involved in sexual harrassment seminars and found that many leaders did not think they should have to sit in these seminars all day so they skipped and sent their staff. However, one large lawsuit in town changed all that back in the 90's. See, the law is written so that if it occurs and leadership does nothing they personally can be sued. That is exactly what happened and one CEO was sued personally for 10 million dollars. He had to pay at least 2 million out of his own pocket when the jury came in! Even the HR person was sued and had to pay 50,000!
These were civil trials in the state court which some will tell you are harder on defendents than federal courts.
What you have reported today is very chilling. The committee needs to be honest about these 'trainings' and who attended.
From this morning's first service..
"Jesus forgave.
They nailed Him to the cross. What's the first thing coming out of His mouth?
Luke 23
But Jesus was saying repeatedly, Father forgive them. They don't know what they're doing. They casted lots.
They weren't asking for forgiveness. I hear people say, "Well I'll forgive them when they ask for it." Nobody was asking for forgiveness that day.
Jesus said, "Father forgive them. They don't know what they're doing."
Forgiveness and reconciliation are not necessarily the same thing. Reconciliation takes both parties. But you can go ahead and forgive even before the other side is willing to do it.
And by the way, I would discourage you from going up to somebody that you've been holding a grudge to and just say I want you to know that I forgive you.
You know why?
Ninety-nine people out of a hundred don't think they've offended you anyway.
And you're going to stir up more of a mess than you could even try.
Just do it with God. That's who you confess your sins to. Just say, "Lord, forgive them. I forgive them." And every day say it, "Forgive them, forgive them, bless them."
Say brother Steve, "I can't do it." Then let God do it through you.
It's a choice.
It's a choice."
-------
Andrew
Yes, Karen -- it is! :)
AOG, I most enjoy studying with the Amplified Bible, as well. But I really like The Message -- not as a primary reference, but to break down into plain language (our vernacular) what may be the point of a passage, then go back to NAS or KJV (or even NIV) and re-read it with a different approach.
Ace asked last nite about the Bible Study "Show Me Your Glory" and if it had been released yet.
My Response: I'm not sure about our bookstore's official release but
I called the church last Fall, told them who I was, asked for a copy to share with a non-denominational Bible Study group I'm a part of and they were more than happy to share.
Piglet asked me last nite where I got my numbers from.
My Response:
My checkbook. I paid $7.00 for the "Show Me Your Glory" workbook, which contains 127 pages of Lessons from the Book of Exodus & the life of Moses. Excellent study - excellent example of how Moses had his ear tuned to hear God's voice. Exodus 14 tells us how Moses was trying so hard to lead the children of Israel, how the Israelites moaned & groaned, whined & complained, because they didn't like change, they were uncomfortable & inconvenienced, and clearly placing all of the blame on Moses, their leader. Moses could have been so easily distracted by their behavior that he missed hearing God's directive, but he didn't. He heard God's voice & obeyed. Ya'll know the story - As Pharaoh & the Egyptians were in hot pursuit, the Israelites freaked out & actually told Moses they would have been better off to live as servants of the Egpytians than to be a part of what Moses was leading them into. And then - my personal favorite - Moses told them, "The Lord will fight for you, you need only to be still." The Lord told Moses to tell the Israelites to move on! And so they did. God gave Moses step by step, specific instructions and Moses listened & obeyed. God caused utter confusion to fall on Pharaoh & his men - scripture tells us that while the children of Israel walked across the parted sea on dry ground, Pharaohs chariot's mired up, wheels fell off, horses fell down. Talk about a mess! And at that point the Egpytian army said "Oops! we might have stepped in it this time - we need to head on back home." But, it was too late. God commanded Moses to raise his staff again. Moses obeyed again and this time the waters flowed back & Pharaoh's finest perished. And when the children of Israel saw the power of God Almighty with their very owns eyes, they feared God & put their trust in Him & in Moses as His servant.
bepatient,
Sent ya one back! :)
karen
This is a repost from last night. I've been personally asked a few times, "why is nothing being done" and I've asked you to wait and be patient. Well, here's what's happening. karen
Tim said...
Folks,
Let me offer an explanation of why it might be that I have been chosen for tonights attack by "bbc employee" as well as the imposter post of "tim" and "tim coggins".
I sent certified letters to the church and received the return receipt today showing that the church had received them yesterday. The letters were sent to Steve Gaines, David Coombs, Mark Dougherty, and the Chairman of the Board of Directors.
The letters requested information be provided to me in accordance with Tennesse State Statues, which specifically require that this information be released to me. The information that I requested was the Bellevue Baptist Church membership mailing list.
There was also a request made for the church to provide space for a meeting of 1,000 members of the church. The intention is to have a meeting to present information to members concerning some of the issues that are confronting the church.
The meetings would be completely open to the membership. I would honestly hope that at least a portion of the leadership would attend. It would be nice if George Bush and the Dixie Chicks could make it as well.:)
It would be preferable that the church conduct an open mike business meeting and have the chairmen of each committee available to answer questions. Since it does not appear that it is likely to happen, there should be no reason that church members should not be able to meet and address their concerns and determine a course of action.
Hopefully, this will come as welcome news to many that have wondered when it would be that there would finally be some action taken to bring resolve to the issues surronding the church. I would like to encourage you to stay at Bellevue and be assured that there is a rather large group that has been working for some time to bring this project to fruition.
11:14 PM, January 20, 2007
Andrew, Reading this made me wonder why Christ went to the Cross. Why bother? If you are going to forgive everything without repentence, regeneration and sanctification and it is that easy, why go through all of that?
Why did He say to believers the gate was narrow and few would find it? Why did He say that without Holiness no one will see God? Why did HE say that if you love your brother you will rebuke him? Why did he say that the wages of sin is death? Why did HE say that if we know the truth and willfully continue to sin we will experience the wrath of God? Why did He say that we should not go on sinning even though Grace abounds? Why did He say we should throw out the sinning brother who does not repent?
Something just does not add up. Sounds like the most important part of the gospel was left out.
But it is very convenient for him to preach on blanket forgiveness without confession and repentance in front of the whole church since the sins were committed by the leaders. (Clintonesque apologies do not count. Study what true repentance is)
Andrew, thanks for publishing the text of that part of the sermon. Any have the text to the 'admit it' part? That is the part I am interested in. I guess, 'admit it' is supposed to represent confession, sanctification and repentance?
Gee, no wonder our churches are Biblically illiterate!
AOG -- since I don't know Greek or Hebrew, I'm so thankful I have the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth of His Word to me. Most of the "hidden Word" in my heart is KJV -- but even if it's NLT or RSV or whatever, God knows the intent of my heart when I study and He shines the light on whatever source I'm using. I guess if He could speak through a donkey, He can even speak through The Message, huh?
If PW is not fired, I will join your effort.
Allofgrace,
Another problem with paraphrasing is that its very easy for something to be paraphrased in a way to put spin on it. Thats because paraphrasing can cause words and sentences to be taken out of context.
Is this another double standard? Seems it's the norm (and acceptable) to label sermons from Bro. Steve as "self-serving" if they have any application to the current church situation -- but it's not suspect at all that there are those who almost always "go there" and must fault-find with the points he makes, which are each backed up with Scripture.
I thought the sermon this morning was tremendous and inspiring, and my heart was touched. I especially benefitted from the admit-quit-forget-commit part, as there is a relationship in my life where I need to be more forgiving. Now, after reading all your comments and hypercritical analysis of the sermon (which many of the posters here didn't even hear), I guess that's just soooo immature of me.
It helps to go with our minds focused on something else besides the current church conflict. God does still speak to BBC members about other things, doesn't He? I didn't think about PW or the Communications Committee or the deacons one single time this morning while he was preaching. I did, however, think about my own issues with forgiveness, and I believe he more than made the case for forgiveness being God's way for us as Christians.
mjm wrote: "I guess if He could speak through a donkey, He can even speak through The Message, huh?"
I pray you will not blow something this serious off so lightly. There are many tools out there on the net showing scripture side by side with the paraphrases that will prove they are not good translations. Our hearts want to believe the 'easier' man made translation.
aog is right about them being translations of translations and not from the original Greek or Hebrew. That is very dangerous.
Case in point with Message is that it is Eugene Peterson's translation of a translation of what scripture is says. So, now I have a responsibility to know what Eugene Peterson believes. Just google him or read one of his other books. I think he is a false teacher. A sheep in wolves clothing.
In a previous thread I asked if anyone had heard PW had been on BBC campus. SG said PW would not be back until 'the investigation' is complete..
Well brothers and sisters in Christ,
Paul Williams was indeed on BBC Campus during this time
and at least one of these times he was invited back on BBC Campus to meet with SG, DC, and others.
This has been stated by BBC Admin.
Not only did SG say one thing and do another but he is neglecting to shepherd/protect his sheep for his own convenience.
Would it not be appropriate to meet at the lawyers office or a mutual meeting place?
I pray concerned parents, abuse victims, or any others counseled or taught by PW did not see him in the parking lot or walking in the halls of their own church while trusting their pastor to protect them.
I suppose this sure puts another 'check' in my spirit!
still concerned.
God does still speak to BBC members about other things, doesn't He?
Absolutely! However, He no longer uses Steve Gaines to speak to me, at least not about the things Steve is preaching about. Once you lose respect for the man and question his integrity, his message, no matter how correct, is suspect.
I'm studying the Word as I haven't in years. Plenty of other teachers are speaking to me and He speaks to me through His word.
Mrs.c,
You are right on!
2006huldah,
On a earlier post you asked if anyone had heard the statement that, if you fail a test [from God} you will have to take it over. Yes, I have heard it and have been reminded many times of it.
You may have also heard that some Christians are carnal and only want pabulum, while more mature Christians want to be fed meat.
Thanks for reminding me of this at this time.
I'm going to have to disagree on this one; I think The Message is an excellent tool in Bible Study. It's a paraphrase, meaning it's not a replacement for your Bible. But it has been checked by many conservative scholars, including Reformed ones (aog), and I think it has many uses (trying to get the big idea of long passages; looking at familiar passages in new ways; introducing new generations to the Word of God).
With that said, my favorite translation is the ESV, but I also appreciate NASB, KJV, and even NIV, as well.
No conservative scholar worth his salt, reformed or not, would approve of changing the meaning of the text, which is exactly what Peterson did.
Ilovemychurch wrote: "I'm studying the Word as I haven't in years. Plenty of other teachers are speaking to me and He speaks to me through His word."
This could very well be why this is happening to BBC. This crisis will drive the wheat to scripture (not the Message!) to study His Word like never before. He is drawing His own to Him.
Many of us have been through the same type of thing. The crisis is worth it and we should never interfere with the Holy Spirit driving people to the Word.
This is going to sound like total drama but if you study Church History you will know that right before a great calamity or persecution, there is an 'Awakening'. We have seen the church of Laodicea grow like crazy all over this land. Cheap grace, easy believism, repentless faith and He will spew us out. We are rich and ignorant. We have followed wolves and wanted our ears tickled.
He is driving the wheat back to His Word. The Sword of Truth. In Revelations, it says that when Jesus returns, He will have the Sword of Truth in His Mouth. This says to me that His Word is Truth and He will judge according to the WORD. We should not fool around with it. We should not take it lightly...not the commands or precepts within.
andrew,
Thank you for posting that section of the message. That's exactly what I heard. Was this from 9:30?
maybe,
Did he expand on his explanation in your service?
Karen
I'm not talking about radicals. I'm talking about Bryan Chapell (President, Covenant Theological Seminary), Kelly James (President, Reformed Theological Seminary Orlando), Richard L. Pratt (RTS Orlando), John Frame (RTS Orlando), etc., some of the most conservative Biblical scholars I know. Go ask them all, e-mail them if you want. Saying we should throw away the Message is what is the radical position.
BTW, what is Gaines using now? I heard him say today "my version says..." and was wondering what he was talking about. I always bring my ESV so I never follow along with him anyway and was wonderinga bout the change.
"G'nite all...won't see ya'll tomorrow...going to give the Presbys a visit. Blessings."
where did you go?
Tim,
Could you please be specific when referring to the Tennessee State Statutes that require BBC to release any information to you? In the Tennessee Code Annotated, what page is it on?
overflowinggrace said...
If PW is not fired, I will join your effort.
Response: I hope to meet you face to face next week then. PW MUST be fired - I think we'll see a large number of folks "joining our efforts" next week.
Karen
Simply trusting every day,
Trusting through a stormy way;
Even when my faith is small,
Trusting Jesus, that is all.
Brightly doth His Spirit shine
Into this poor heart of mine,
While He leads I cannot fall,
Trusting Jesus, that is all.
Singing if my way is clear,
Praying if the path be drear;
If in danger, for Him call,
Trusting Jesus, that is all.
Trusting Him while life shall last,
Trusting Him till earth be past;
Till within the jasper wall,
Trusting Jesus, that is ALL.
Trusting as the moments fly,
Trusting as the days go by.
Trusting Him, WHATE'ER BEFALL --
TRUSTING JESUS, THAT IS ALL.
Words by Edgar Page Stites, 1836-1921
"gug,
All fine and good...I still want to know..as much as is humanly possible, what God said..not what somebody thinks about what He said...anyhoo...I visited Riveroaks Reformed Presby...PCA."
Well, that's your position I guess. The rest of us biblical scholars will continue to use commentaries, Study Bibles, etc., to get new perspectives from other conservatives.
There are many people I know and love at Riveroaks. Did Rev. Spink preach today? (He's on the board of directors at Covenant, btw; I haven't asked him but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be against The Message, either).
quote" You may have also heard that some Christians are carnal and only want pabulum, while more mature Christians want to be fed meat."
Please forgive me but I have to disagree with this! Paul uses 'carnal' to describe 'worldly' and it has been very mis interpreted. He is using it in the context of them being 'professing' Christians but not saved. There is no such thing as a 'carnal Christian'. One cannot be Born Again and be carnal.
I urge you to go to Bible gateway and do a search on 'carnal' using the KJ. Read very scripture from Matthew to Revelations using this word to get a feel for what it means. When Paul says...as carnal..as babes...in 1 Corintians 1:3 he uses the word 'flesh' in the ESV.
There are only the saved and the lost. There will be no 'carnal' Christians in heaven.
Matthew 7: Many say, Lord, Lord.....
Please take this in the spirit it is meant. Love, Esther.
Memphisbelle,
Check out T.C.A. 48-66-101 et seq.
Karen, yes, I believe he said "more" at 11, if memory serves.
memphisbelle said...
Tim,
Could you please be specific when referring to the Tennessee State Statutes that require BBC to release any information to you? In the Tennessee Code Annotated, what page is it on?
Response:
I reposted Tim's original post so I'll take the liberty to answer for him:
TCA 48-66-101. Corporate records
I have no idea what page it's on.
karen
"gug,
and I bow to your superior scholarship"
AOG, wasn't meaning to sound snobby or anything... was just trying to make a point that commentaries are what "somebody thinks about what He said" as you put it, and that I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Thanks WTB!
karen
BTW, did anyone have an answer to this?
"BTW, what is Gaines using now? I heard him say today "my version says..." and was wondering what he was talking about. I always bring my ESV so I never follow along with him anyway and was wonderinga bout the change."
i love my church,
3;59 post, you are exactly right.
In a court of law, when a witness is discredited, his whole testimony is discredited.
What makes BBC any different?
Karen,
No problem. I just happened to scan the blog at the right moment and saw that question.
Depth of mercy! Can there be
Mercy still reserved for me?
Can my God His wrath forbear
And the chief of sinners spare?
I have long withstood His grace,
Long provoked Him to His face;
Would not hear His gracious calls;
Grieved Him by a thousand falls.
Jesus, answer from above,
Is not all Thy nature love?
Wilt Thou not the wrong forget?
Lo, I fall before Thy feet.
Now incline me to repent,
Let me now my fall lament;
Deeply my revolt deplore,
Weep, believe, and sin no more.
Words by Charles Wesley (1707-1788)
GUG and AOG,
He typically preaches from the NASB. I am not sure when he started pulling out the New Living, but I am as troubled about that as others are.
"GUG and AOG,
He typically preaches from the NASB. I am not sure when he started pulling out the New Living, but I am as troubled about that as others are."
That is kinda weird. I do know the complaints about the NASB (while it's word for word, it's not as readable as some other word for word translations like ESV), but he could have at least gone to another word for word. I guess the ESV is too new for him, and KJV too... old. Who knows. I actually think NLT is a decent translation, but I prefer translations like ESV / NASB from the pulpit. I'd like to know his reasoning behind the change.
GOD's qualifications. GOD'S QUALIFICATIONS for decons and pastors
He MUST be a man of SPIRITUAL MATURITY Devout Titus 1.8 Not a new Christian 1 Tim. 3.6
He must be a man of INTEGRITY AND TRUTHFUL 1 Tim 3.8
He must be a man marked by SELF_CONTROL self_control Titus 1.8 Temperate 1 Tim 3.2 Sensible Titus 1.8 1Tim 3.2 NOT QUICK TEMPERED Titus 1.7 Not addicted to wine 1 Tim 3.3 Titus 1.7 1 Tim 3.8
He must be COMMITTED TO THE TURTH! 1 Tim 3.9
HE MUST relate well, relate well to OTHER PEOPLE He must be EASY TO GET ALONG WITH Not PUGNACIOUS 1 Tim 3.3 UNCONTENTIOUS 1 Tim 3.3
NOT SELF WILLED! Titus 1.7 Hospitible 1 Tim 3.2 Titus 1.8
HE MUST HAVE PROPER SETS OF VALUES Free from the LOVE OF MONEY! 1 Tim 3.3 NOT UNDULY FOND OF GAIN Titus 1.7 A lover of the good Titus 1.8
HE MUST, MUST BE A MAN OF GOOD, GOOD GOOD REPUTATION IN THE COMMUNITY Aboue REPROACH 1 Tim 1.6-7 WHITOUT REPROACH 1 Tim 3.2 RESPECTABLE!!!!! 1 Tim 3.2
He must not be unduly fond of GAIN 1 Tim 3.8
OF GOOD REPUTATION BEFORE THOSE OUTSIDE! 1 Tim 3.7
He MUSst be a capable handler of the Word
HE MUST, MUST MUST BE COMMITTED TO THE TRUTH 1. tim3.9 Titus 1.9 Apt to teach 1 Tim 3.2 Exhorting in sound doctrine Titus 1.9 REFUTING THOSE WHO CONTRADICT!!!! Titus 1.9
He must be a man who manages his family well!!!!!!!!!!!! Nabages gus own household well 1 Tim 3.4 1 Tim 3.12 husband of one wife Titus 1.6 1 Tim 3.2 children in submission 1 Tim 3.4 having children who believe Titus 1.6 having children not accused of dissipation or rebellion Titus 1.6
So how do things measure up at Bellevue to God's standards?
I know many are assunming that the latest message on forgiveness was in preparation for an attempt to keep PW on staff.
I hope that's not so. I'm not sure what I have to forgive PW for, since he didn't sin against me but against God and his son.
Maybe Gaines wants us to forgive HIM for keeping PW on staff (?)
I don't know, but with all this talk about forgiveness, forgetting the past, and "unlocking the cage " it does make me wonder what is in store.
If I hire a painter and he repeatedly shows up late, doesn't take direction, tries to overcharge me, does a lousy job, or causes damage to my property - even if he apologizes every time and I forgive him - even if he's a likeable guy, I'm gonna want a new painter.
Forgiveness doesn't mean I have to keep the painter, right?
Folks, the quality and street appeal of my home is not near as precious as the reputation of God's house and the spiritual condition of my pastor who is responsible for leading my family.
I just want a new pastor and leadership. I don't want PW in a postion at BBC. Forgiveness is beside the point, I'm afraid.
GUG,
My problem with the New Living is gender-neutrality. ILMC made the same comment earlier. It wasn't written gender-neutral, why should modern men force politically correct ideas on God?
I have decided to purchase an ESV. I have read some great reviews of it from scholars I respect. I use the NKJV for study. For comparison I use the KJV and NIV as well.
westtnbarrister said...
GUG and AOG,
He typically preaches from the NASB. I am not sure when he started pulling out the New Living, but I am as troubled about that as others are.
Response: you are correct - my mom bought my dad a new NASB because dad likes to read what version the pastor happens to use. He had a KJV that was totally highlighted and full of Dr. Rogers' sermons (as well as others). I'm looking forward to using that Bible to study from when dad is done using it (didn't want to say when he dies!) :)
By the way, whoever said the comment about The Message and New Living Translations being for "the dumbed down" - I am one of those and I really enjoy looking up scripture on BibleGateway.com and comparing verses in different versions. Call me dumbed down, but it really helps me.
westtn,
"GUG,
My problem with the New Living is gender-neutrality. ILMC made the same comment earlier. It wasn't written gender-neutral, why should modern men force politically correct ideas on God?
I have decided to purchase an ESV. I have read some great reviews of it from scholars I respect. I use the NKJV for study. For comparison I use the KJV and NIV as well."
I had forgotten about that (I don't own an NLT)... that's even more interesting then.
And yes, run, don't walk, to the nearest store and buy yourself an ESV... you'll fall in love with it quickly.
I've been a member of BBC for a number of years. If PW comes back in any capacity I'm gone. PW belongs in no ones church as a minister.
AOG,
BTW, if you want a good ESV Study Bible, the Reformation Study Bible is excellent. They carry them at Borders.
ester,
Carnal- sensual, worldly, non-spiritual;relating to or given to the crude desires and appetites of the Flesh or body. The apostle Paul contrasts "spiritual people"-that is, those who are under the control of the Holy Spirit-with those who are "carnal"-those under the control of the flesh [1 Cor.3:1-4; Rom. 8:5-7]. The word carnal is usually reserved in the New Testament to describe worldly Christians. [Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary.]
This was what I was taught many years ago.
Please accept this in the Spirit it was meant, I thank you for your concern.
God bless,
concerned
What do you think of the New Century Version?
Piglet,
With all respect, my sister, forgiveness is never beside the point. With God, forgiveness IS the point.
Piglet,
I felt the message today was a set up as you stated. Maybe for us to forgive Steve Gaines (again!). Hopefully not to welcome PW back on staff.
What a dumb move to let PW come back on campus - it's not a mistake of the head, it's just DUMB - when they told us he wouldn't be back at BBC until the investigation was over. DCS could have visited SG or PW's homes or they could have met at an attorney's office. Whoever made the decision to hold the meeting at BBC is just DUMB!
karen
It is unthinkable that 1 man (SG) could come in and turn BBC upside-down in such a short length of time. Scary.
MJM
I didn'y mean that forgiveness is not important or necessary.
In this case forgiveness is beside the point because it doesn't change my course of action. I am looking in the yellow pages for another painter whether or not I am bitter against the first one.
Forgiveness is important but it has no bearing on whether someone is capable of fulfilling a job description.
A pastor must be a man of integrity and truthful. According to God, this is not an option
A pastor must be committed to the truth. According to God, this is not a sugguestion nor an option.
He must be able to handle God's Word, rightly. I assume this would mean he is not to use it for his own benefit, but to teach and feed the flock of God.
God requires a pastor to be self-controled. It is not optional.
God requires a pastor not to be quick tempered. This is not optional, according to God.
God requires a pastor to relate well to other people. He must be easy to get along with. This is God's requirement.
God requires a pastor not to be pugnacious.
God requires a pastor to be uncontentious
God requires a pastor not to be self willed. These are not God's sugguestions but requirements.
God requires a pastor to be free from the love of money.
God requires a pastor to be not unduly fond of gain.
God requires a pastor tobe above reproach. This is God's requirement.
God requires a pastor to be without reproach.
God requires a pastor to be of a good reputation before those outside.
Therse are some of God's requirements for a person who seeks to be a pastor.
truthseeker,
And he's only been here 15 months or so - still on the "honeymoon". If this much has happened, look down the road 5 years.
karen
I think some people in leadership at Bellevue missed the part about accountability. While as christians we should forgive, we should still hold each other accountable for our actions. I mean, if your son/daughter broke a vase in the house, you forgive them, but you would still hold them accountable.
The theological idea from this morning that God will not forgive us unless we forgive others was interesting. As I understand the nature of God, His forgiveness towards us is unconditional. I hope he wasn't saying that in order for God to do right, we must do right.
No, sometimes you let them off the hook. Those of you who are parents, do you consequence every single thing your kids do that's wrong?
maybe,
Esther's post earlier covered different forgiveness - Today's sermon covered one side. I (and from the emails I've received today) and others feel the other side was left out. Maybe not on purpose, but just left out.
karen
PW is gone. Most likley forced to step down. He will no longer be employed by Bellevue. It's not even a question. This entire past month has been about protecting Bellevue from a lawsuit, which did happen with past administrations.
Psalm 43:3 said...
The theological idea from this morning that God will not forgive us unless we forgive others was interesting. As I understand the nature of God, His forgiveness towards us is unconditional. I hope he wasn't saying that in order for God to do right, we must do right.
5:27 PM, January 21, 2007
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. (Matt. 6:14-15)
What else could Jesus have meant in these verses besides what He so clearly said?
overflowinggrace,
How do you know this? Can you reveal your source? I would love it if it were true, but it seems that others in this situation are culpable as well - Steve Gaines, Bryan Miller for two. Where is their punishment for the part they played?
karen
If by "gone" you mean "off the payroll" you're incorrect. The trouble that many at BBC are having is that an admitted (not yet convicted) staff member who is guilty of homosexual incestuous sodomy (read "moral failure") is still on the payroll. Tithes are paying his salary as of this very moment.
(offline -- headed to Appling Road)
Psalm,
Your correct that he has been, but no longer. Exact date of the last paycheck..I dont know. You will get the whole story Sunday, and you will understand why SG did what he did.
Concerned, I think I misunderstood your first post! I thought you were saying that carnal christians are saved. Please forgive me.
To all, He would not dare bring PW back. He wants to stay at BBC. Think strategically because that is how your pastor is thinking.
He will let PW go, with forgiveness and then you are stuck with Gaines. He can come back and say, I did the right thing, now why can't YOU forgive me?
See how this works? Even though his behavior and sermons are something I would question as Biblical as far as the teachings in scripture are concerned.
Don't ever forget that someone here said that the pastor was not part of the internal investigation. Nor, is the internal investigation done by a 3rd party that is not invested in the outcome.
The press coverage someone listed the other night kind of made me see things a bit different. They are manipulating the media.
Reguardless of whether or not PW is no longer there now, its still inexcusable for Gaines to have waited 6 months to do anything.
quote" PW is gone. Most likley forced to step down. He will no longer be employed by Bellevue. It's not even a question. This entire past month has been about protecting Bellevue from a lawsuit, which did happen with past administrations."
Boy, you really have to read between the lines on this one. SG will go to great lengths to protect himself...even to the point of ignoring God's Holy Word.
Uh, who would sue Bellevue? The victim? Some members? Has there been a threat of a lawsuit? For what and by whom.
Esther,
Paul Williams.
Are you aware that in the past before SG, Bellevue fired a pastor for a "moral failure" and we were sued. We ended up paying him to go away.
Overflow: There is no excuse for not taking action in June. Dr. Gaines may try to use one but that is not acceptable. Go back and read my earlier post this afternoon and you will understand why I say this.
I also dispute that previous administrations knew about it.
David Brown
SNAP coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis
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