Before you continue, I'd like to ask that you scroll down to January 7th's "Let's Continue... " topic and read the information in the top two sections (in bold red and orange, respectively). Then scroll back up to January 16th's "New Poll" topic, read and think about the comments referenced in the first sentence, and then continue. There was a lot of unnecessary trash that had to be taken out last night, and your cooperation in not adding to the volume would be greatly appreciated!
Many people have mentioned a "check" in their spirits about Dr. Steve Gaines and/or the things they perceived happening at Bellevue during the last year and a half. Whether you call it a "check" or a "catch" or a gut feeling or just a hunch, I've heard numerous people say they thought they were alone in their feelings and perhaps just imagining things. I've heard wives and husbands say they each felt "something" but didn't say anything to each other until months later. I felt it myself walking through the halls. There was "something" wrong, but I just couldn't put my finger on it. I felt like if I even scratched the surface of all those smiling faces that I'd learn all was not right at Bellevue. Finally in August I began to learn the truth and discovered it wasn't "just me."
Here are several people's accounts of their own "checks." If you experienced this phenomenon yourself, please consider sharing when your "Aha!" moment came and what prompted it.
And a poll:
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627 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 627 Newer› Newest»heardenuf said....
I bet he has sped and jaywalked too.
Response:
Comparing the harboring of a child molester for 6 months within a church is not even a close comparison. Aren't you the one that was talking about comparing apples and oranges.
Charlie,
You are correct! Some folks just become confused with the facts.
heardenuf wrote:
"Did Steve just happen to come in and identify those that were already in position of leadership and then convince them to follow his diabloical plan or is Steve the pawn himself?"
IMO, yes (to both).
AOG,
Andrew,
I happened to be the only person in my "group" at BBC that was opposed to SG before we ever heard he was coming - this was when his name was tossed about as the "probable one". That "check" in my spirit was strong and when I voiced my opinion, my close friends treated me like I was an ignorant fool. There was nothing I could put my finger on, it was the Holy Spirit conviction in my heart. According to John 16:7, the Holy Spirit speaks to us for the purpose of conviction, righteousness and judgement. The Holy Spirit speaks God's language. He speaks of righteousness and sin in our lives and brings us to a point of awareness of both. He also speaks of the judgement of ignoring sin. I am convinced that I should have been more vocal and approached Dr Rogers with my convictions prior to Steve Gaines arrival. I have had to repent for my failure to act. It will not happen again.
wwjd wrote:
"Then why is it that some of your paid leadership is having secretaries to monitor the blog? Evidentially they are worried about our "200" enough that they are keeping tabs on our movements. From what some of them have told us, it's part of their job description now!"
You are correct.
Charlie Fox said:
"However, I just as STRONGLY urge those, such as HEARDENUF, ACE and DEACON 4545, who frequently post for the sole purpose of being antagonistic and disruptive, not to attempt to detract with their antagonistic posts."
Response:
Nice to see if been added to the list!
an·tag·o·nis·tic –adjective 1. acting in opposition; opposing, esp. mutually.
2. hostile; unfriendly.
I'll go for the first definition, but I don't think asking for facts instead of rumor/innuendo/insinuation/exaggeration etc. falls into the second catgeory. Maybe many here deem my desire for accountability as hostile or unfriendly just as I see embellished posts as hostile and unfriendly.
"Should they do so, which is their right, I STRONGLY urge posters on BOTH sides not to respond to those types of antagonistic posts that serve NO CONSTRUCTIVE PURPOSE, but ONLY attempt to detract from the SERIOUS ISSUES that face BBC"
Response:
Please don't respond to my posts, then I won't have to respond back. My posts are really for those who lurk here and only read things that can't be substantiated. If they see that they are indeed unsubstantiated then maybe they will think for themselves and not accept all of this as fact... and therefore my job is done.
"I'm gone... for now!
Heardenuf said:
Response: Examples please
Piglet says:
Hugely inflated salary
Salary advances for the pastor
Using Bellevue facilities to make and market product for Gaines own company
Co-mingling of funds (against IRS tax code)
Intimidation of staff members
Nondisclosue statements for staff as they leave their positions
Threatening Mike Spradlin for speaking his conscience
Hiding a pedophile on staff
These come to mind immediately.
ou
New BBC Open Forum said...
heardenuf wrote:
"Did Steve just happen to come in and identify those that were already in position of leadership and then convince them to follow his diabloical plan or is Steve the pawn himself?"
IMO, yes (to both).
Response: Thank you for your honesty and the real reason you started this blog!
Ezekiel said,
My opinion...Steve is the pawn. Glad you asked. :)
IMO, I think they are both pawns in different games.
I think that Pastor Gaines sermon on the Sunday onwhich the public announcement of PW's "moral failure" was self-serving in the least and could rightly be called manipulative.
As you may recall, Pastor Gaines preached on Joseph and Mary. We were repeatedly reminded that we were all in need of God's grace, having deserved condemnation and that we needed to forgive one another. Joseph was set forth as the example to follow in extended grace towards one another.
Comparing Joseph's gracious actions toward Mary (a virgin) to how we should react to this "moral failure" is very offensive.
In the prelude to the written statement, Bryan Miller exclaimed that this was a great sermon to prepare our congregation for the announcement. Even our Deacon Chairman understood the message to be in context with the events to follow.
Those who have been sexually abused and those who have loved and supported them in their healing process can understand the outrage we felt when implored to extend immediate grace for the perpetrator.
heardenuf said
Response: Please, we have been through this before. Do you know Dr. Rogers salary and Steve's. If so, please post it. Do you know personally that he "demanded it" in spite of all of the evidence to the contrary. (The search committee)
Piglet says:
Craid Parker left Bellevue finance over these issues. They have been discussed at the off-campus meetings. Sorry you weren't there.
I guess you could call Craig.
I'm tired of telling people this.
The leadership gets rid of the people who know and then everyone says "How do yoü know?
Piglet said...
Heardenuf said:
Response: Examples please
Piglet says:
Hugely inflated salary
Response: What is it?
Salary advances for the pastor:
Response: Elaborate please.
Using Bellevue facilities to make and market product for Gaines own company
Response: Elaborate with facts please. What Company? What products?
Co-mingling of funds (against IRS tax code)
Response:
Why is the IRS not involoved?
Intimidation of staff members
Nondisclosue statements for staff as they leave their positions.
Response: That they willingly sign? I'd like to see one. Perhaps you can scan and post.
Threatening Mike Spradlin for speaking his conscience.
Response: Please, you heard him threaten Mike Spradlin?
Hiding a pedophile on staff.
Response: The report isn't out yet, is it? I will admit, that this bothers me too!
These come to mind immediately.
Response: Please take a little more time and type exactly what you know first hand and what is not speculation.
I'm really gone this time ;)
heardenuf wrote:
"Thank you for your honesty and the real reason you started this blog!"
1. You're welcome.
2. I didn't start this blog. I merely took over the administration of it when the original BBCOF (whom I never identified) for reasons known only to himself could not continue.
3. You merely asked a question, and I answered it. I think there are many issues besides that one, and for the record, I wouldn't have used the word "diabloical" (or "diabolical" either). I don't think Steve Gaines is diabolical or evil nor do I "hate" him as some have suggested those of us who are questioning some things must. In the words of our "pet poster," don't put words in my mouth.
AOG...
It is very comforting to hear you say this. I appreciate your stand. I so hope you are right and others will come aboard and fight this thing. May God continue to bless you.
Ima
Piglet said...
AOG said
What some should realize is that these issues reach beyond Bellevue's walls..as many have noted..the world is watching..they're watching to see how this all ends up. Bellevue, in her position as one of the most high profile churches in the SBC, has influence..like it or not. How this plays out will set precedence. Some of you say.."why not just go elsewhere?"...well here's the thing..as I and many others see it..if the way things are currently being done at BBC succeeds in remaining in place...pastor rule, with no accountability, secrecy, etc...there will be a domino effect on the churches of the SBC...in short..there'll be no "elsewhere" to go.
Piglet says:
AMEN! Many in our same dilemma are watching and hoping for a solution to all this, not surrender.
It's more than this folks. Many of our SBC churches have already been lost. Believe it or not, there are very few non-purpose driven, non-seeker-friendly churches left...and BBC was one of them. I pray the Truth will win and I believe God has kept you good people there to search for and demand the truth for the purpose of restoring BBC. BBC has tremendous ministries and we, and the SBC, needs BBC strong and solid.
I want to throw in my two cents worth about "checks" in the spirit. I believe when I have a check in my spirit it is the Holy Spirit guiding me because I pray daily to have protection and discernment and I believe the Holy Spirit gives that to me through "checks." The first time I saw SG I felt a cinch in my gut. He just didn't look or act sincere. It's very hard to explain but it was real. I don't mean to sound judgemental at all; I've just learned to trust those "checks."
Ezekiel,
I honestly don't think either know what to do with whatever control they already have - which I see slipping away.
IMO
Anyone showing up with their spy cameras and spy recording devices tomorrow? Mine will be in my hair on my barratte. I bought it online this week and they will never figure it out unless they set up those things like at the airport and begin inspecting us before we enter the sanctuary! Hey, you never know, it could happen! Who would have thought all this would have been going on at BBC 2 years ago? Not me!
Just kidding about the recording device, but I bet there will be more than one camera there tomorrow! They may really make some innocent folks upset because you know they will be going up to everyone who has one and telling them to put it away or "Lurch" will come escort them out, right? Or could that be that it only applies to Jim Haywood? I have an idea......let someone else do it who hasn't had the exposure like some sweet looking old lady!
SOmeone should call Agents 86 and 99 to infiltrate the service with spy cameras tomorrow :p
Heardenuf said:
Hugely inflated salary
Response: What is it?
Salary advances for the pastor:
Response: Elaborate please.
Piglet says:
Salary over $400.00.00 and salary advances have been numerous. My previous post is how I know. If you want to know,you can too.
Heardenuf said:
Using Bellevue facilities to make and market product for Gaines own company
Response: Elaborate with facts please. What Company? What products?
Piglet says:
Building a set for Donna to make "Beth Moore" type videos to sell - profit goes to SG's company.
Heardenuf said:
Co-mingling of funds (against IRS tax code)
Response:
Why is the IRS not involoved?
Piglet says:
Who says they are not or won't be?
Heardenuf said;
Nondisclosue statements for staff as they leave their positions.
Response: That they willingly sign? I'd like to see one. Perhaps you can scan and post.
Piglet says:
Unfortunately, they want you to sign it and give it back. I don't know anybody with a copy.
DOES SOMEONE HAVE A COPY?
This was brought up in the CC meeting (the last one). Harry admitted there was such a form and it WAS new but when asked who introduced this form, he said "I don't know."
Heardenurf:
Threatening Mike Spradlin for speaking his conscience.
Response: Please, you heard him threaten Mike Spradlin?
Piglet said:
He threatened possible retaliation if an apology was not offered publicly for his statement. Sorry, cannot reveal my source here. :)
Heardenuf:
Hiding a pedophile on staff.
Response: The report isn't out yet, is it? I will admit, that this bothers me too!
Piglet says:
The story is already out. How it will get changed to protect the guilty is beside the point. So few people have talked to the families involved that the congregation will believe whatever is said.
heardenuf (who apparently hasn't) wrote:
"Karen said...
"faithnhope,
"When you've got a Finance Committee that won't even pray over a $25,000 contribution suggestion (regardless of where it went), then there is something wrong."
"Response: Did someone from the Finance Comm. tell you there was no prayer?"
Actually, Wayne Vander Steeg, who is chairman of the Finance Committee, said exactly that in the next to the last CC meeting on 11-26-06. To his credit, near the end of that meeting, after much criticism from some of the attendees, he did apologize for that decision. As far as I know he's the only one to date who's taken any responsibility for it though.
Do you think BBC leadership has considered,
"Hey, since we've done nothing wrong and have nothing to hide, let them have their audio, video or whatever. Let the world see everything is fine at Bellevue and that there's nothing wrong here.
swtt
If you're lurking, please e-mail me. I have a question or two.
Do you think BBC leadership has considered,
"Hey, you know what? We have a responsibility to shepherd the flock. Sure some of them are not very nice at times but shouldn't we reach out to at least try to bring them back?
Maybe we ought to try harder to understand and engage their concerns. Talk with them more in small open meetings. Let's listen and ask them to help us restore peace, trust and a healthy Body."
Look for more Damage control propaganda in sunday school classes tommorrow.I received one last week from my sunday school teacher.these could be handouts usally 1 to 2 pages.they might have the theme brokeness on them with a question statement answered by B.the correct spin statement.Or could be other handouts with Pro forgive the pastor or steve gaines rhertoric defending PW.Also remember seeing Paul williams bout 8 or 9 rows back at the communcations meeting.I mean by Damage control is gaines sermons that are pre planned for defending their Agenda.They will use this trick to dupe new members and they don"t care if this cause dissenion in class.Its also called divide and conquer.Curious to see how much they spin in the next couple of weeks.Folks bellevue has been hijacked by self serving men and others I talk to every week are starting to see the propaganda...
I am a former Bellevue staff member and from what I have read and heard from members and former members of BBC, time is of the essence for the Lord to take control of this situation. I am deeply saddened to hear what is going on. Keep your head high and your eyes on the Lord!
I worked with PW but knew nothing of this situation. I was there when the "incident" must have taken place! I think SG should have taken action then. Don't let the staff and pro SG fool you!
Thanks Daisy,
Blessing to you.
Andrew
Andrew said...
Do you think BBC leadership has considered,
"Hey, since we've done nothing wrong and have nothing to hide, let them have their audio, video or whatever. Let the world see everything is fine at Bellevue and that there's nothing wrong here.
8:43 PM, January 20, 2007
Do you think BBC leadership has considered,
"Hey, you know what? We have a responsibility to shepherd the flock. Sure some of them are not very nice at times but shouldn't we reach out to at least try to bring them back?
Maybe we ought to try harder to understand and engage their concerns. Talk with them more in small open meetings. Let's listen and ask them to help us restore peace, trust and a healthy Body."
8:49 PM, January 20, 2007
Andrew, are you kidding me? If they did that, it would give the impression that they actually cared and they DON'T! If they cared, they would have tried to find answers to our questions at the CC meetings! They would have allowed Mark Sharpe to meet with the men involved in the dream issue. They would have allowed a business meeting to occur so that everyone would have a voice, not just the big guy (SG)--Remember 9/24? They wouldn't say "If you don't like it, then leave!" They would be tranparent and have NOTHING to hide!
It's very thoughtful and almost humorous that you mention these things in your posts, but listen guys, THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYONE BUT THEMSELVES! SO....THIS IS THE VOCABULARY WORD FOR THIS YEAR OR UNTIL TRUTH IS RESTORED AT BBC! HERE IT IS.......
NARCISSISM
Until we get those who this word applies to out of leadership, nothing will change!
Fyi: On the Purpose Driven Church.
Right now most followers of the Church Growth Movement as not using PDL anymore because there is a growing backlash to Rick Warren for certain things. (Mostly social concerns...like having Barak Obama speak at his church)
Most are using GCM methods and that is what you all are seeing. AAMF, the SBC is totally into GCM witnessed by their goal to baptize a million by a certain amount of time. GCM is many things but the basis of it is results in numbers carried out by promoting horizontal relationships. Everything is measured in numbers. How does one measure sanctification?
Numbers have nothing to do with it if you understand Matthew 7. In Matt 7 He is talking about BELIEVERS...not the world. Scary.
As to knowing scripture, I read where one old pastor preached on the book of Acts 2x every Sunday for 2 years. Expositorily!
How many here have ever read about the unforgivable sin in scripture? Tried to understand it? I came across it when I decided I must find answers to what I saw. It blew me away. There are many different views about it. But the scripture tell us there is ONE unforgivable sin. Don't you find it strange that pastors are not preaching on it?
I have been reading this blog for several weeks now because, although I'm not a member of BBC, I was saved 40 years ago under the preaching of Dr. R.G. Lee in revival at my rather small church in West TN and have always considered BBC to be the epitomy of Baptist Churches in Tennessee. Tonight I'm reading where some of you are questioning the "checks" you've had in regards to your pastor and others and whether it's biblical. ..may I call something from the Bible to your rememberance? In Paul's writings (sorry, I don't have my Bible here at the computer with me so I can't give you book, chapter, and verse)we are taught that our spirits will "bear witness" with another spirit. This is either a "quickening" or a "check". If your spirit bears witness with another spirit then you are generally in "one mind, and one accord" with that person. . . if the spirit doesn't "bear witness" then there's generally a "check". Of course, you would have to realize that in this case the "spirit" is actually from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which Jesus promised would come to us after His assention into Heaven.
Also, in terms of Salvation, if you have done a study of The Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren, you noticed in chapter 2 of the book, Salvation is not described as the experience that many of us had where we realized we were lost and bound for hell without God in our lives so we accepted His Love and Grace in our hearts and turned from our wicked ways, but rather a time when we "decided" to become a Christian because it was our "purpose". When you take Salvation away from religion, you've removed the core belief that makes us Christians! I do believe I have a purpose in life. .. but I also believe that BECAUSE of my salvation, I now have God's precious Holy Spirit directing my life and helping me to fulfil my purpose according to His Holy Plan!
This is just a few thoughts from a "Saved by Grace Believer" who is in earnest prayer for your situation at BBC!
"But the process of the "check" itself is not specifically addressed in Scripture that you know of, is it?"
‘Test the Spirits’ is in scripture. And that check could be the Holy Spirit driving them to scripture.
We also have 'tests' in scripture to use to see if we are really Walking in the Light or have fruit. (1 John is one of them, there are some in Corinthians and Matthew and others I cannot remember off top of my head.)
Jesus said He would send a Counselor and Spirit of Truth to us. The Holy Spirit speaks through scripture. The problem with this is we tend to look for a few verses when we have to know the whole. For example: I could tell you that scripture says we should never judge someone and could show you the verse. That is not the full teaching of that one verse. (As a matter of fact, we use those judging scriptures to judge the ‘world’ and that is wrong. Those scriptures are aimed at those professing Christ. We are not to judge the world…see 1 Corinthians)
Some are teaching a Jesus that just does not exist…tickling ears…dressed as sheep. They are teaching about some effeminate guy that was full of cheap grace. Yet, we know His Character was the same as God's. Who did Jesus reserve His most harsh words for? And they were very harsh. Those teaching the ‘Word’ in His time.
As aog said, we will not recognize the counterfeit unless we know the real thing. The real thing is in all the scriptures, not just some verses we look for to prove something.
Here is an example of testing fruits or walking in the light: If you followed me around with a camera, pretty soon, you would find something to snap showing me not walking in the light..sinning. If you followed me around with a video camera and filmed me, would it appear that I was walking in the light most of the time? That I was appalled by even small sins? That I was 'groaning' under the weight of my sinful nature?
We say, oh, you cannot know a persons heart. The Bible does not teach that at all. The Bible teaches that the heart is wicked and deceitful. Everyone's. The only thing that separates me from Hitler is common grace. We just do not believe this anymore nor is it taught. So we can’t recognize sin or evil anymore. Unless it is big like murder, rape, etc.
The Bible teaches that we cannot know who will be saved in the end. But we also know that the Bible teaches that ‘He who began a good work in me will complete It.” (Sanctification)
Matthew 7 says we can know them by their fruit. We forget that He uses the illustration of the vine and branches. The vine 'continuously' feeds the branches meaning that the Christian walk is one of continuous repenting, sanctification and growing in Holiness.
We have forgotten that God hates sin. Jesus hated sin. Here is a check: If a pastor teaches forgiveness but does not spend more time on regeneration and sanctification and the standards of the law and commands of scripture, who can understand forgiveness? The goal is repentance. And repentance is not a few apologies. It is a turning away…a changed heart. Therefore the teaching of forgiveness by using 10+ verses from all over scripture, gives us a skewed view of forgiveness. Don’t forget, Jesus and the Apostles preached: Repentance. Forgiveness comes after that.
We tend to forget that Paul said to throw the reprobate out so ‘he could be saved’. He didn’t say, oh, His sin is under the blood. A way to know it was not under the ‘Blood’ is because PW did not resign as a MINISTER when he first committed this sin. He is unqualified according to scripture. His not resigning leads me to question if there was true repentance. And yes, we ARE allowed to question that.
The problem with being a Christian today is that if we follow scriptural commands, we look mean. The irony is that to love someone means you may have to say things they do not want to hear. GCM pastors know this and have dumbed it down to bring in the numbers.
By the way, as to telling people to leave if they don't like it...that is hallmark GCM. Do you have any idea how many meetings I have sat in with sr leaders where it was said: We WANT them to leave. It is a goal. They can bring in the numbers...trust me. The world wants this repentless Christianity we are offering them.
Dear Daisy
Dr rodgers was my hero.Dr rodgers taught us well.But the holy spiirt shows us all things.Thank you serving at bellevue time you did.Our sweet Holy spirit is day by day revealing the truth day by day.He knows his sheep and they hear his voice.Gods word will not return to him void.God Bless you!
HE REIGNS!
How sad it is to see in black and white satan's work among God's people! How proud satan must be of himself for causing the hateful, slanderous words to be uttered not only against Dr. Gaines and his precious family but also against fellow brothers & sisters in Christ! How it must make satan's heart sing to hear the disgruntled BBC family exalt Dr. Roger's over and over again while we absolutely tear our church, which is God's Holy Temple, to pieces. The truth is Bellevue Baptist Church is God's - not yours, not mine, not Dr. Roger's, not Dr. Gaines. And if Dr. Rogers were still here on this earth, he would tell you the very same thing! And here we sit, in the name of the Lord, quoting & at times, misquoting scripture to justify tearing it to pieces, bit by bit. Who of us is without sin and can cast the first stone? What message are we sending out to those who are wandering aimlessly without Jesus Christ in their lives? As Christians, we have a responsibility to do that which Christ has called us to do. The Bible specifically tells us that we are to love the Lord our God, with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our might. That is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like unto it, we are to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. If our Lord Jesus Christ came back today, would He find us loving Him with all of our heart & loving our neighbors as ourselves, or would He find us knee-deep in destroying His church?
Lin,
I have some questions I would like to ask you off line about PD churches. Would you be kind enough to send me an email?
What follows is a check list of character traits used to identify Narcissistic Personality. If your pastor or someone else you know can be characterized by a majority of these realize you have a major challenge on your hands. This check list should be given to those who have had the closest continual contact with the narcissist. Take into consideration that some people whom the narcissist has surrounded himself with will be blind to all these, as they have either become co-dependent with the narcissist, or have blind loyalty to the ‘position of pastor.’
Self-centered. His needs are paramount and take precedence over the church
No remorse for mistakes or misdeeds. Will not offer heartfelt apologies or ask forgiveness.
Unreliable, undependable. Will change his mind and reverse decisions at will
Does not care about the consequences of his actions—may not even understand the connection
Projects his faults on to others. High blaming behavior; never his fault
Little if any conscience. Will do most anything he thinks will not be discovered. May ask staff to fudge the books.
Insensitive to needs and feelings of others
Has a good front (persona) to impress and exploit others
Low stress tolerance. Easy to provoke into anger
People are to be manipulated for his needs, accomplishing his desires
Rationalizes easily. Twists conversation to his gain at other’s expense. If trapped, keeps talking, changes the subject or gets angry
Pathological lying. Will lie if he thinks it will further his image and if he doesn’t think it will be discovered. When lies are followed up on, will imply that the other person is mistaken, and that he never said the lie in the first place
Tremendous need to control situations, conversations, and group meetings
No real values. Mostly situational
Often perceived as caring and understanding and uses this to manipulate
Angry, rapidly changing moods
Does not share ideas, feelings, emotions
Conversation controller. Must have the first and last word
Is very slow to forgive others. Hangs onto resentment
Secret life. Hides money, friends, activities
Likes annoying and provoking others. Likes to create chaos and disrupt for no reason
Moody - switches from nice guy to anger without much provocation
Seldom expresses appreciation unless he is buttering the person up for further use
Grandiose. Convinced he knows more than others and is correct in all he does
Lacks ability to see how he comes across to others. Defensive when confronted with his behavior. Never his fault
Can get emotional, tearful. This is about show or frustration rather than sorrow
He breaks women's spirits to keep them dependent
Needs threats, intimidations to keep others close to him
Highly contradictory
Convincing. Must convince people to side with him
Hides his real self. Always “on”, playing the part when in public
Kind only if he's getting from you what he wants
He has to be right. He has to win. He has to look good
He announces, not discusses. He tells, not asks
Does not discuss openly, has a hidden agenda
Controls money of others but spends freely on himself
Unilateral condition of, "I'm OK and justified so I don't need to hear your position or ideas."
Always feels misunderstood
You feel miserable with this person. He drains you
Does not listen because he does not care
Is not interested in problem-solving
Very good at reading people, so he can manipulate them
Will exaggerate and brag about past accomplishments
Concerned with getting what he wants NOW—immediately
Will not want to share his pulpit/platform with others
Will be envious of any other staff person who is loved or highly respected by the congregation
Will be overly concerned with the ‘image’ of the church building/bulletins etc.
Feels that he has been taken advantage of over and over again—’knife in the back syndrome.’
Dress may change based on whomever is his latest idol
Spend long hours ‘doing church’, but little will be accomplished
Nit-picky about minute details, but miss the entire big picture
allofgrace said...
"ima, If you're interested,"
Of course I am interested. I appreciate my brothers/sisters who study to show themselves approved. I did read that thread...I don't remember who posted exactly what. In fact I posted there myself. I was particularly interested in that thread for obvious reasons. If time allowed, I'd like to go back and read it again, but right now it doesn't allow. Was there any one thread in particular you would like me to read which you posted there? I'd be happy to read it if you could point me in the right direction.
Again, let me say I appreciate people like yourself who 'test the spirits'.
Ima
mom4 said:
"If you were on a first name basis with Dr Adrian Rogers, you would know that. You have no right to show him so little respect.
5:39 PM, January 20, 2007"
Mom4:
I agree wholeheartedly! It hurts to hear someone flippantly call that dear man by his first name. His 52 years of devoted service to the Lord and his 32 years at Bellevue where he was a REAL PASTOR...loved us, taught us, showed us righteousness by his living example...earned him a place of honor and respect.
Also, for those who might be tempted to use him as a joke or to make a point, please remember, his precious Joyce is still here on this earth and if she were to hear his name bantered around like that, her heart would be more broken than it already is over the way the current Bellevue leadership has treated her and attempted to cast doubt on the integrity of her dear husband.
Sorry to be so long-winded, but I've seen too much of this flip attitude about Dr. Rogers thrown around and I'm appalled.
telos, you have mail :o)
heardenuf said...
Tim said...
heardenuf,
"I accept that you have a faith in these men. However, faith should be based on evidence. Evidence indicates that there is a problem with the credibility and integrity of our leadership."
Response: Just so we know, I'm referring to men like Bryan Miller, Chuck Taylor, Wayne Vandersteeg, John Caldwell, John Crockett, Steve Tucker, Mark Spiller, Harry Smith.
Which of these men has credibility and integrity issues. Mind you, I'm not talking about rumors, I want some documented facts.
7:59 PM, January 20, 2007
Response: All of these men have been informed of the truth and they refuse to stand for righteousness. Instead, they have compromised their integrity and chosen to follow a man instead of God. There is much more that will be coming out in the near future that will further rip Bellevue apart. These men have had the opportunity to make right decisions based on facts and they have made a grave error. The days ahead are very dark for Bellevue.
Anyone who loves the Lord and loves the church will stand against what's going on inside Bellevue. Like a good investigative news reporter, until the whole story unfolds, it will not go away. The Southern Baptist Convention is under attack. Churches all over America are watching this unfold as it grows. God is going to cleanse His church.
He will not stand for anything but Truth.
Lindon,
Thanks! As soon as they unload it off the snail that is yahoo I will respond.
Thanks : )
Bloggers,
BBC EMPLOYEE posts for one purpose and one purpose only. BBC EMPLOYEE's sole purpose is to be antagonistic. As long as ya'll waste your precious time and talent feeding BBC EMPLOYEE, BBC EMPLOYEE will continue to play that game. If you ignore BBC EMPLOYEE, then BBC EMPLOYEE will soon go away. Ya'll need to FOCUS, FOCUS, FOCUS on the problems at BBC and quit playing into his hands by playing his game. I know that it is hard to resist taking the BAIT, but you must RESIST THE TEMPTATION.
Whooops... Look like Ace, Heardnuf has come back as BBC Employee!!!!!!!!
The earlier discussion of the phrase “check in the spirit” was interesting. I don’t think this exact phrase is found in the Bible; rather, I believe it is a phrase used in recent years to describe/express/illustrate (and those words might be adequate) the truly remarkable gift of the Holy Spirit that provides the spiritual discernment and direction a saved person receives in their daily walk with our Lord.
While a number of posts offered good observations about this phrase and listed various verses that discuss spiritual discernment, I though the following comments represented an excellent – but short and to the point – explanation for the phrase “check in the spirit”.
IntheSpirit said...
Trying to define a "check" in the spirit is like trying to define faith. But, when Jesus said that He would send us the Spirit, He said, "He will guide you into all the truth" and "will take of Mine and will disclose it to you." John 16:13-14.
Also, Romans 8:16 says, "the spirit testifies with our spirit" not only that we are children of God but as I understand Him--anything that He wants us to know--the truth.
Do I fully understand this remarkable gift? No! But I can not – I dare not – deny its existence. Here are just a few of many verses that discuss spiritual discernment (see, for example, the last word in verse 14):
1 Corinthians 2:
10: But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11: For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12: Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13: Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15: But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16: For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
Now for a personal testimony – I, like many who have posted to this site – have experienced many “checks in my spirit” about what has been going on at BBC. I can’t recall the first instance, but it was shortly after SG came to BBC – something he said in one of his sermons or maybe just the way he said it. I wanted to ignore it – deny it – forget it – excuse it. But, sadly, that “check in my spirit” has returned many times as the events that are now well documented have unfolded.
overflowinggrace said...
How is it that the Holy Spirit is only speaking to a couple 100 people in a group of 8500?
Some of you have already responded to the above post by noting that there are more than 200 people who have evidently had a “check in the spirit” too. But it seems to me that “picking at the number” is missing the more important question “overflowingwithgrace” asked. How is that some but not others have experienced this “check in my spirit”?
maybejustmaybe said...
Also, if there is no clear Scriptural directive, would not the "check" be something that could be (and would be) counterfeited by Satan for his purposes?
To me the answer to the question asked by “overflowingwithgrace” is still a mystery. One possible answer is the question asked by “maybejustmaybe” – Satan is a liar and he is constantly trying to deceive the elect. Therefore, it is possible that the "check" be something that could be (and would be) counterfeited by Satan for his purposes.
However, I know that the many “checks” my wife and I felt were NOT a counterfeit message from Satan, and I do not believe for one second that the check felt by many godly people we know was counterfeit either. There’s the mystery.
I do believe that for whatever reason, there are some – maybe many – godly folks who have not yet had a “check in my spirit” regarding the events that many of us find so troubling. Possibly they are still where I was some months ago – they want to ignore it – deny it – forget it – excuse it. For them there may yet be some “defining moment” that might make them more open to seeing things in a different light. I know of one person who was a very strong supporter of SG until the week following the PW announcement. The events of that week became his “defining moment”.
As for the possible number of folks who had a “check in their spirit” too, no one this side of heaven actually know how many there are. I can only speak from personal knowledge that I believe the number to be well beyond 200 and growing. Within my circle of family, friends and associates, the number is over 50 representing more than a dozen families. Many, like my wife and I, are (or were) long time BBC members. Within this group, there were deacons and teachers. Others were in service in some other area of BBC. Based upon what I know, each person had a “check in their spirit” at some point in time – some early on – others not until recently.
On another point, over the past few months, there has been much discussion of Matthew 18. Now, I don’t think I’m high enough up in the food chain at BBC to have much of a say on the discharge of these duties. I personally think the brothers doing the addressing ought to be someone the bother being addressed knows and respects and thus is more likely to listen to the counsel being received. On the other hand, I believe that Jesus commanded each of us to be “fruit inspectors” (see Matthew 7:20: Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them). This is a duty regardless of our “position” at BBC. At this point in time, some of us seem to be more discriminating about what we think is good fruit vs. bad fruit, but, if, it is God’s will, others become more discriminating.
What does all this mean for BBC?
I don’t know the answer to this question, but as I have thought about that question, I’ve been reminded of a question Dr. Rogers used to ask: “Did it ever occur to us that nothing ever occurs to God?”
In other words, what is happening at BBC is not a surprise to God. He is not in Heaven pacing the floor having an anxiety attack about the situation. He knows exactly what is happening and he knows how it will turn out.
I personally believe the roots of BBC run too deep for the current mess to have any long term impact. Eventually, BBC will emerge into the sunshine of God’s grace and it will again be the witness for Christ that Jesus wants for his bride.
As I thought about the current problems, I’ve also been reminded of a statement Dr. Rogers made in some of his sermons: Sometimes God gives the test before he teaches the lesson.
As I understand the events of 2006, two deacons had a meeting with SG in the spring (March I believe) to discuss some concerns they had about BBC by-lays and policies. They thought – maybe naively hoped – SG would share their concerns and embrace the effort to better establish/define accountability and transparency in BBC operations. Instead of embracing that effort, these two men were labeled trouble makers. That meeting, I believe, was the test.
In the months that followed that meeting there has been an escalating sequence of events unfold that could have been avoided had SG and his core group of staff and lay leaders embraced the effort back in the spring of 2006 to establish/define accountability and transparency in BBC operations. For example, I don’t believe the itty bitty fence jumping incident would have occurred, there would have been no need for the trashing talking comments made to the church in Union City, the questionable donation to FUMC would not have been made, and most importantly, the PW’s “confession” would not have been kept in confidence for almost 6 months. I believe each of these events were part of the “lesson” that may not as yet have been learned. I guess we will get more insight into whether the lesson has been learned when the final PW report is issued.
Speaking of the PW situation, it is remarkable to me for one reason – it remained hidden (even from Dr. Rogers) for 17 years. Why did God allow this horrible secret to remain hidden for so long? I believe it is possible that God looked down the tunnel of time and in his infinite wisdom chose to allow this to come out at this time to test, refine and possibly even purge some of the leadership that would emerge after Dr. Roger’s retirement (again, here I am not talking about just SG – his core group of staff and lay leaders must be included).
I can not leave the discussion of the PW situation without asking each of you to remember Joyce Rogers and the rest of that family in your prayers. I don’t personally know her or them, but I cannot imagine the anguish the PW situation has caused all of them. It still breaks my heart to think about hearing her voice on TV defending the integrity of her husband. That should have been a “defining moment” for anyone with ears to hear.
As I’ve worked on this posting, I’ve remembered fondly many of Dr. Rogers’ short quips. He could pack more spiritual truth into two sentences than some preachers can articulate in 45 minutes! Around the time of his memorial service, I was fortunate enough to receive a copy of a document titled “Proverbs of Pastor Adrian Rogers”. They were extracted from a dear lady’s notes of Dr. Roger’s sermons from 1973 through 2005. Here are just a few of these “Proverbs” that seem to me to be relevant given BBC’s current situation (my prayer is that these “Proverbs” will bless each of your hearts like they have blessed mine as I’ve gone over them again today):
We're to be divided by truth - not united in error.
The Holy Spirit is to a Christian what instinct is to an animal.
Jesus never had to modify a statement, ask advice, apologize, ask for prayer or justify His actions.
A church should be pastor led, deacon served, committee operated and congregationally approved.
A faith that can't be tested can't be trusted.
God only wants for us what we would want for ourselves, if we were smart enough to want it.
Where God guides, God provides.
God's
Riches
At
Christ's
Expense
Forsaking
All
I
Trust
Him
The Bible is God’s road map.
Our great need is to discover that Jesus is all we need.
The church is a society of sinners who finally admitted it.
Man isn't a sinner because he sins; he sins because he is a sinner.
A parable is an earthly story with a heavenly meaning.
If you deny the past, you’ll distort the future.
Decision determines destiny.
If your religion hasn’t changed your life, you had better change your religion.
Repentance made in the time of storm may sometimes mean nothing in the still waters.
God uses the ax the Devil sharpens.
Where God doesn’t rule, He will overrule.
God is never late or never in a hurry.
Jesus saves the best for last.
The church is not a showboat – it’s a battleship.
Sin will take you farther than you want to go, keep you longer than you want to stay and cost you more than you want to pay.
You always reap what you sow, you reap later than you sow and you reap more than you sow.
Character is what we are in the dark.
The heart of the human problem is the problem of the human heart.
The greatest sin for a Christian is silence.
What you think and do should agree with what you say.
Many things are opened by mistake and none more frequently than the mouth.
We will never be over until we are willing to be under.
You can’t be right with God and be wrong with a brother.
Worry is an admission that I’m putting something before God.
No man who is morally wrong has the ability to govern.
A church is to be stability in motion.
Nothing is politically right that is morally wrong.
Don’t let your conscience be your guide unless God guides your conscience.
Sorrow is a clean wound. Guilt is a dirty wound. Time and the grace of God will heal sorrow.
My fear of God should not be that He will put His hand on me but that He will take it off.
We don’t have to agree. You have the right to be wrong if you want to.
God bless everyone regardless of your how you view the questions facing BBC at this moment in time. When we agree to disagree, I suppose folks on both sides of the current issues can always defer to the last “Proverb” listed above.
P.S.
Please forgive this very long post. This is my first and may well be my last; at my age I really don’t get this blog stuff. I think it is a pitiful way to communicate with folks, but I’ve decided it was worth one attempt.
Also for those with inquiring minds, I am not nor have I ever been on the BBC staff nor have I ever served as deacon at BBC.
NASS,
You have mail.
AOG...
Yes that sounds good. Thank you.
Ima
Proverbs 11:3
"The integrity of the upright guides them"
"Fence Fiasco" This visit was based on the premise of "reconciling with a brother". The entire episode was based on a falsehood, thus revealing a lack of integrity.
"Dream debacle" The facts that are known about this are that the pastor told Mark Dougherty about a dream and later recanted and was obviously a part of allowing Mark D to recant his story to cover-up the facts of the dream itself. Can we all agree that a lack of integrity was obvious in this situation also.
"PW Episode" The pastor told us (the congregation) he " thought everything was okay with the family in June". We are now finding out that was far from being an honest statement. Once again we see a lack of integrity as it relates to dealing with church issues.
These are just three issues that we have had to deal with relating to the pastor in the last year and a half. Common sense tells us that Dr Gaines is still on his "honeymoon" with Bellevue. With that said we may be seeing the best of Dr Gaines and not the worst of him. I personally believe he has been on his best behavior and the worst is yet to come.
These are certainly trying times for those of us who love Bellevue.
Proverbs 10:9
Noscales
Thank you BBC Senior Citizen for your words of wisdom.
Mr Rather,
It's an honor to have you back, sir.
Could you give us a hint about the things that are coming that will rip our church apart? Are they things that have already happened, or things that your reporter's intuition tells you are going to happen? If they've already happened, you should let us know so that Peter Jennings doesn't get the scoop.
Also, if I can offer you some amatuer advice, when you said
"Anyone who loves the Lord and loves the church will stand against what's going on inside Bellevue. "
you offended thousands of my brothers and sisters. Many of us grew up watching you on TV, and we're disappointed you would condemn us as not loving God just because we don't operate on your schedule. I would think you've endured enough scandal over the last few years. :-)
bbc senior citizen,
Wow. What a blessing. I wish we went to a church small enough where I could benefit from your lifetime of wisdom personally.
Best,
Faith
BBC Employee,
I would also appreciate an apology.
Lwood,
Is Ace and Heardenuf the same person????
Whooops... Look like Ace, Heardnuf has come back as BBC Employee!!!!!!!!
I have posted this many times, why do I have to post it again? I am nobody else on this forum except for Ace. You owe me an apology.
hecares,
post6:42
AMEN AND AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!
In a court of law, when a witness tells a lie his whole testomony is discreditable.
Why are exceptions made at BBC?
Thanks for the post.
Ace,
Are you from Middle Tennessee?
Wwjd,
Are you from Middle Tennessee?
Nope.
Ace,
Thanks, didn't expect you to be honest. Your name is Adam though, right?
Thank you BBC senior for your wise words.
One thing I love about leaving my former seeker church is that in my new church I am surrounded by Seniors! They love on us and I am so grateful for those relationships. I want my child around that wisdom. In my new church, the teens and middle aged all worship together. And all love the seniors and respect what they have done in their walk with Christ.
I had a hard time finding a senior in my last church. It was 'segregated'. The teens had their own church, the children had their own church, etc.
Hey guys, signing off because I am NOT on your time zone. Telos, yahoo has not delivered so I will catch up with you tomorrow. (What is Telos, anyway, is it Greek for something?)
Beloved: Worship in Spirit and Truth tommorrow.
wwjd,
Thanks, didn't expect you to be honest. Your name is Adam though, right?
Believe it or not, I am always honest. Could you email me? I can't see to find your email address in your profile.
To bbc senior citizen,
You may have never served on the staff or been a deacon, but you must have been in "God's Invasion Army" because, Brother, you have the Holy Spirit in you. I have never heard anyone else tell about how the Lord sometimes gives the test before he teaches the lesson, but that is the same thing that has been repeating itself in my head. I, too, am awaiting the outcome to see if a certain man has learned this lesson. Have you ever heard anyone say that if you fail the test the first time, you'll have to take it over again?
Thank you for taking the time to share your wisdom, knowledge, understanding and truth with all of us. You may not be used to it, but I feel certain that it has done some good.
Dee
I don't trust you Ace. But I will email you from a secure location on Monday so watch for an email from me. Also I wondered if you and BBC Employee set up your email addresses at the same time? Seems like you guys travel in pairs, or could it be that you are the same person? I know.....maybe you are both girls....you know how they love to go to the bathroom together! LOL
Brother Tim,
I've missed you!
Piglet - were you in the "Show Me Your Glory" study last fall? I'm curious to know if thats the "set" you are talking about that was built to further Donna Gaines personal business? Do you know how much the dvd series of that study sells for?
I was in attendance last fall and remember distinctly Donna's amazement at the beautiful set - all that was asked for by her was a curtain to serve as a backdrop. She graciously thanked the artists for their labor of love & the ladies present thanked them as well. As for the sales price of the studies Mrs. Gaines has taught - they are nominal compared to the other Bible Study materials that are distributed at LifeWay. If you do your research, I think you will find that the cost to the consumer simply covers the cost to produce. When you put a paper and pencil to it, with the actual figures, you will be pleasantly surprised to see there's no profit to be pocketed.
nosacles said:
Common sense tells us that Dr Gaines is still on his "honeymoon" with Bellevue. With that said we may be seeing the best of Dr Gaines and not the worst of him. I personally believe he has been on his best behavior and the worst is yet to come.
Piglet says:
I agree. And isn't THAT scary? :/
wwjd,
I don't trust you Ace. But I will email you from a secure location on Monday so watch for an email from me.
Why don't you trust me? I have never said anything to make anyone think otherwise. Forget about the email, I was just going to answer your question.
Also I wondered if you and BBC Employee set up your email addresses at the same time?
My email address was setup back in September or October, I believe. Bu t recently yahoo has been unrealiable, so I switched to gmail.
Seems like you guys travel in pairs, or could it be that you are the same person?
I only post as ACE and ACE alone. Quit suggestion otherwise.
faithnhope,
I am somewhat surprised that you had missed me to be honest. If my memory serves me correctly it seems that we have been in disagreement over several issues.
MemphisBelle,
Do you know how much the dvd series of that study sells for?
The DVD series are not for sell. I believe they only sell the CDs and I'm not even sure if it was released yet... if it was, it was within the past week or so.
bbc employee,
I know them both and yes, they both love to come over to my house and sit around the fire drinking our tea and we laugh about you and the others who are drinking the koolaid by the gallons and we draw mustaches and funny faces on pictures of all of you they we have taken with our spy cameras!
faithnhope said...
Mr Rather,
It's an honor to have you back, sir.
Could you give us a hint about the things that are coming that will rip our church apart? Are they things that have already happened, or things that your reporter's intuition tells you are going to happen? If they've already happened, you should let us know so that Peter Jennings doesn't get the scoop.
For the record, Mr. Jennings passed away in the summer of 2005.
Also, if I can offer you some amatuer advice, when you said
"Anyone who loves the Lord and loves the church will stand against what's going on inside Bellevue. "
you offended thousands of my brothers and sisters. Many of us grew up watching you on TV, and we're disappointed you would condemn us as not loving God just because we don't operate on your schedule. I would think you've endured enough scandal over the last few years. :-)
Mr. "Rather," or whoever he/she might be, is as confused and uninformed as a chef trying to make the hollandaise sauce without the eggs.
Courage.
--Mike
David,
Has the Aceman been exposed? I think WWJD just got his attention. I did notice that we did not see a denial and he says that he is nothing if not honest.
Exposed how? People accused me here of being some 'Wendy' and 'Janie' and I have never denied either of those names. I must be one of those people, I suppose?
memphisbelle
No, I was not in the Bible study you mentioned.
Where did you get the figures on this?
bbc employee,
Oh me? Oh no dear sir, I'm not a fake. I don't pretend to be something I'm not. I do know both Jim and Nass and they are fine people. And yes, we have all shared a laugh over you and some others on this blog who are like minded to you dear sir.
Oh, come now Mike!
I feel safe to say that no one here believes that our own beloved 'danrather' is really the anchorman.
NASS--
Somebody must really be keeping you busy, but they should give up. You are WAY too fast for them
NASS
I thought bbc empolyee was a bratty little kid last night but his use of Tim's I.D. leads me to believe they are in leadership or assigned by leadership to tarnish his credibility.
Kinda scary considering the language and viscious remarks that have been made by this person. What will they not stoop to?
David,
I do however have a pic of you in my mind. I believe you are still in your 20's, Fairly tall, (everybody's tall to me though) somewhat of an athelete, big sports fan.
Let's see.... 1 out of 4 correct, that's not too bad.
No, bbc employee is probably the CHILD of a disgruntled Bellevue member and hates us just because of what they hear at home.
"Lwood,
Is Ace and Heardenuf the same person????
Whooops... Look like Ace, Heardnuf has come back as BBC Employee!!!!!!!!"
Response:
You people kill me! I think mom4/karen/diana hart/Tim/allofgrace/newbbcopenforum et al. are the same person who can type really fast and use different logins on different computers at all times of the day as an employee of Bellevue... and keep all of his/her lies and antagonistic remarks straight.
No wonder you all have so many conspiracy theories regarding Bellevue.
Well, back to the phonebooth to become ace/ACE again! LOL
newbbcof said:
3. You merely asked a question, and I answered it.
Response: But I wasn't asking you.(at least I don't think I was. I can't find the original post. So if I was asking you, I apologize... otherwise...)
I think there are many issues besides that one, and for the record, I wouldn't have used the word "diabloical" (or "diabolical" either). I don't think Steve Gaines is diabolical or evil nor do I "hate" him as some have suggested those of us who are questioning some things must. In the words of our "pet poster," don't put words in my mouth.
Response:
I wasn't putting words in your mouth. I wasn't even asking you.(I don't think) I was merely using exaggeration/hyperbole/analogy as so many prefer around here. It kind of hurts doesn't it? (Tongue planted firmly in cheek)
WWJD said...
bbc employee,
Oh me? Oh no dear sir, I'm not a fake. I don't pretend to be something I'm not.
Fascinating.
So, your given name is "wwjd"? Talk about foresight by your parents when they named you! Do you get even a sliver of royalties from the t-shirts, jewelry and such?
I mean, I went to high school with a guy named "D'oh!", and he's making a killing off The Simpsons merchandising...
I do know both Jim and Nass and they are fine people. And yes, we have all shared a laugh over you and some others on this blog who are like minded to you dear sir.
Now there's a revealing statement.
I wouldn't have thought that either Nass or Jim would have the paucity of character that would allow them to laugh at those with whom they disagree.
Are you telling us that's what you three do--that you mock people with whom you disagree?
--Mike
Ace said:
David,
I do however have a pic of you in my mind. I believe you are still in your 20's, Fairly tall, (everybody's tall to me though) somewhat of an athelete, big sports fan.
Let's see.... 1 out of 4 correct, that's not too bad.
Response: Hey 1 out of 4 for me too. Maybe we are the same person!
HeardEnuf,
Response: Hey 1 out of 4 for me too. Maybe we are the same person!
Maybe!
Wwjd is mistaken. NASS has never sat around a fireplace with Jim and wwjd, and NASS hates tea. Must've been someone else.
NASS
NBBCOF,
NASS hates tea.
See! I knew you were a hateful person. Finally, the truth comes out.
;)
Heardenuf
Mock if you will, but tonight is NOT the first time a pro-Gaines individual posted under someone else's ID to confuse the blog.
faithnhope said...
Oh, come now Mike!
I feel safe to say that no one here believes that our own beloved 'danrather' is really the anchorman.
Thus, my use of quotation marks.
--Mike
Piglet,
Mock if you will, but tonight is NOT the first time a pro-Gaines individual posted under someone else's ID to confuse the blog.
How about the times when the anti-Bellevue people post under the pro-Gaines usernames? Why don't you tell us about those times?
And I really don't remember that happening before....and BBC Employee never said he was Pro-Gaines or Anti-Gaines....unless you can should me a post that shows otherwise?
Piglet,
Come, come my dear. I posted earlier today that monitoring this blog is part of their job description! And we know what some of them have done to try to stain the image of Mike Spradlin. Don't think for a second that they wouldn't stoop to do something like that to Tim! They might even use a young pretty girl to tempt some of these men out of their anonymity to stain them as well! Be careful!
I go to another church, not Bellevue. The pastor of my church preached on authority, after some of his leadership decisions had been challenged, and said that "as the husband is the head of the wife, the PASTOR is the head of the church." He said that his authority could be appealed to by the membership, but his decisions were final. Actually, Ephesians 5:23 states "as the husband is the head of the wife, CHRIST is the head of the church." Our church has gone through many of the same things discussed about Bellevue - new pastor, change in worship style, no more committees but use of "ministry teams", closing of the information to the members, church run through small group of those close to the pastor, taking away decision making from the church body to the pastor, statements and attitutes that if you did not agree, you were working with Satan, etc. In that context, the mistatement of scripture was a "check", one of many, that I have had. Does anyone feel that the statement made by the pastor above, which I took as twisting of scripture for personal gain, is something that I should disregard, or should I be concerned with it?
Dan Rather said:
"All of these men have been informed of the truth and they refuse to stand for righteousness."
Response: Whose truth? Yours, the blogs? What truth are you referring to. Maybe you have credible info. that you could make me aware of.
"Instead, they have compromised their integrity and chosen to follow a man instead of God. "
Response: Like people followed Mark Sharpe and Craig Parker and their version of the truth that Craig later recanted?
There is much more that will be coming out in the near future that will further rip Bellevue apart.
Response: I have seen this so many times. You're anonymous, so just tell us what it is. You could scoop everyone and be the most credible Dan Rather ever. But just like everyone else, you'll tell me to find it in my Bible or tell me I wouldn't believe it etc., but you'll offer no proof.
These men have had the opportunity to make right decisions based on facts and they have made a grave error.
Response: That grave error is?
The days ahead are very dark for Bellevue.
Anyone who loves the Lord and loves the church will stand against what's going on inside Bellevue.
Response:
Please give me something. Is it the Paul Williams deal?
Like a good investigative news reporter, until the whole story unfolds, it will not go away. The Southern Baptist Convention is under attack. Churches all over America are watching this unfold as it grows.
"God is going to cleanse His church.He will not stand for anything but Truth.
Response: I'll agree with that and am thankful fot it!
Heardenuf
Mock if you will but tonite is NOT the first time a shady individual has posted under someone else's ID to confuse the blog!
WWJD
Well, maybe so, but I hear Tim already has a pretty girl at home! :)
bbc senior citizen wrote:
"Please forgive this very long post. This is my first and may well be my last; at my age I really don’t get this blog stuff. I think it is a pitiful way to communicate with folks, but I’ve decided it was worth one attempt."
For your first attempt, you sure did a good job! Thank you for sharing your wisdom. We need more "bbc senior citizens" like you! God bless you!
WWJD said...
Piglet,
Come, come my dear. I posted earlier today that monitoring this blog is part of their job description!
Response: Surely you jest.
And we know what some of them have done to try to stain the image of Mike Spradlin.
Response: Do tell. What have they done. I think they need to be exposed.
"Don't think for a second that they wouldn't stoop to do something like that to Tim! They might even use a young pretty girl to tempt some of these men out of their anonymity to stain them as well! Be careful! "
Response: Sad. Pray about what you just posted and see if you would like to delete such filthy slander.
The lowest I've read thus far.
New BBC Open Forum said...
Wwjd is mistaken. NASS has never sat around a fireplace with Jim and wwjd, and NASS hates tea. Must've been someone else.
Is the mysterious "wwjd" merely "mistaken," or did that poster attempt to advance a lie?
--Mike
P.S.: Tea, by the way, is marvelous--either iced or hot. Get some Bigalow's Earl Grey tea, heat up some hot water, dip a bag in a cup full of that hot water, toss in some sweetener to taste, and you'll see how good it is. If you're a coffee drinker, you'll leave it for hot tea.
Ace
You are not talking to me remember?
Answer MY questions and I'll answer YOURS. ;)
Piglet said...
Heardenuf
Mock if you will but tonite is NOT the first time a shady individual has posted under someone else's ID to confuse the blog!
Response: How can I help but mock. This blog is supposed to be an information blah, blah, blah and yet when anyone is challenged for what they post... the disinformation comes flowing out. Don't answer the question posed, just attack the questioner.Is that a word! ;)
P.S.: Tea, by the way, is marvelous--either iced or hot. Get some Bigalow's Earl Grey tea, heat up some hot water, dip a bag in a cup full of that hot water, toss in some sweetener to taste, and you'll see how good it is. If you're a coffee drinker, you'll leave it for hot tea.
Capt. Picard's favorite drink :)
Mike,
Obviously I have offended you my dear brother. Can you ever find it in that big heart of yours to forgive me. I was trying to break the tense air here tonight with a little humor about me sitting around the fire with Jim and Nass. Gosh, you really hurt my feelings talking down to me like that! I think I'll go sit in a corner and cry!
Piglet,
Answer MY questions and I'll answer YOURS. ;)
I don't answer "what if" questions. That is just a waste of time.
WWJD said...
Piglet,
Come, come my dear. I posted earlier today that monitoring this blog is part of their job description! And we know what some of them have done to try to stain the image of Mike Spradlin. Don't think for a second that they wouldn't stoop to do something like that to Tim! They might even use a young pretty girl to tempt some of these men out of their anonymity to stain them as well! Be careful!
Please, whoever you are, shut down your browser before you injure yourself any more than you already have.
--Mike
frft wrote:
"The pastor of my church preached on authority, after some of his leadership decisions had been challenged, and said that "as the husband is the head of the wife, the PASTOR is the head of the church." He said that his authority could be appealed to by the membership, but his decisions were final. Actually, Ephesians 5:23 states "as the husband is the head of the wife, CHRIST is the head of the church." "
I hope for his wife's sake he's not married.
"Does anyone feel that the statement made by the pastor above, which I took as twisting of scripture for personal gain, is something that I should disregard, or should I be concerned with it?"
Depends. How badly do you want to remain a member of this church? Personally, I'd consider it a huge red flag, and I think you do, too.
phil413 said...
Heardenuf,
I'm sorry but I've never really given much thought as to who you are. I have never really thought much about you at all.
Psalm 118:6
David Matlock
Response: Nice. More personal attacks. I don't believe you were being spoken too. I can be ugly as well. Why don't you read those verses you post under before stooping to the personal attacks. I'd like you post one thing (other than what I just said to you) where I attacked someone personally. Please.
Koragg said...
P.S.: Tea, by the way, is marvelous--either iced or hot. Get some Bigalow's Earl Grey tea, heat up some hot water, dip a bag in a cup full of that hot water, toss in some sweetener to taste, and you'll see how good it is. If you're a coffee drinker, you'll leave it for hot tea.
Capt. Picard's favorite drink :)
You're not to tell anyone that I've been known to stand in front of my microwave and order "Tea. Earl Grey. Hot."
--Mike
Folks,
Let me offer an explanation of why it might be that I have been chosen for tonights attack by "bbc employee" as well as the imposter post of "tim" and "tim coggins".
I sent certified letters to the church and received the return receipt today showing that the church had received them yesterday. The letters were sent to Steve Gaines, David Coombs, Mark Dougherty, and the Chairman of the Board of Directors.
The letters requested information be provided to me in accordance with Tennesse State Statues, which specifically require that this information be released to me. The information that I requested was the Bellevue Baptist Church membership mailing list.
There was also a request made for the church to provide space for a meeting of 1,000 members of the church. The intention is to have a meeting to present information to members concerning some of the issues that are confronting the church.
The meetings would be completely open to the membership. I would honestly hope that at least a portion of the leadership would attend. It would be nice if George Bush and the Dixie Chicks could make it as well.:)
It would be preferable that the church conduct an open mike business meeting and have the chairmen of each committee available to answer questions. Since it does not appear that it is likely to happen, there should be no reason that church members should not be able to meet and address their concerns and determine a course of action.
Hopefully, this will come as welcome news to many that have wondered when it would be that there would finally be some action taken to bring resolve to the issues surronding the church. I would like to encourage you to stay at Bellevue and be assured that there is a rather large group that has been working for some time to bring this project to fruition.
You're not to tell anyone that I've been known to stand in front of my microwave and order "Tea. Earl Grey. Hot."
I'm guilty of doing that myself from time to time. Even at work lol.
Seriously Mike,
You might be surprised to know what some of them have stooped to do! No kidding here!
Heardenuf
There are none so blind as those who will not see.
We don't need your support.
Tim,
The information that I requested was the Bellevue Baptist Church membership mailing list.
And what exactly are you planning to do with that info? Just curious...
Ace
We don't need your support either. :)
And make sure you don't ask any more of YOUR "what if "questions.
mike bratton wrote:
"Please, whoever you are, shut down your browser before you injure yourself any more than you already have."
Not so fast, Mike. Wwjd may have been mistaken about me but possesses a great deal of knowledge. Some of it's pretty interesting, too.
Piglet,
We don't need your support either. :)
Don't worry, I don't support this site. Thanks for checking, though.
And make sure you don't ask any more of YOUR "what if "questions.
I never ask "what if" questions. Thanks for your concern, though.
ema said:
"Also, for those who might be tempted to use him as a joke or to make a point, please remember, his precious Joyce is still here on this earth and if she were to hear his name bantered around like that, her heart would be more broken than it already is over the way the current Bellevue leadership has treated her and attempted to cast doubt on the integrity of her dear husband.
Sorry to be so long-winded, but I've seen too much of this flip attitude about Dr. Rogers thrown around and I'm appalled. "
Response: I would agree with this wholeheartedly and ask that we extend this to the wife of Steve Gaines as well. No one should cast dipersions on anyone without proof!
WWJD said...
Mike,
Obviously I have offended you my dear brother. Can you ever find it in that big heart of yours to forgive me. I was trying to break the tense air here tonight with a little humor about me sitting around the fire with Jim and Nass. Gosh, you really hurt my feelings talking down to me like that! I think I'll go sit in a corner and cry!
If it keeps you away from your computer, that just might be a better use of your time.
Making comments about how you and others supposedly mock those with whom you disagree in no way falls into the category of "a little humor." And trying to retrofit your remarks as humorous ones doesn't do anything to help matters.
I encourage you to take your acronym to heart as you review what you've written.
--Mike
newbbcof said:
"Not so fast, Mike. Wwjd may have been mistaken about me but possesses a great deal of knowledge. Some of it's pretty interesting, too. "
Response: I'd like to hear some of it.
wwjd wrote:
"I was trying to break the tense air here tonight with a little humor about me sitting around the fire with Jim and Nass."
Oh, I misread that earlier! I thought you said we sat around the fireplace. You said we sat around the fire. I remember that now! What fun! We sat around the campfire and sang Kumbaya. NASS didn't drink tea though.
"I think I'll go sit in a corner and cry!"
There, there now. Don't let the big fella hurt your feelings! Sticks and stones... as they say. :-)
phil4.13 said:
Hey Herd,
I never accused you of personal attacks. Where did you get that?
Response: I didn't say you accused me, I said you attacked me personally.
You posted something I said that was not directed to you. What about my post to you was a personal attack?
Response: This part: "I'm sorry but I've never really given much thought as to who you are. I have never really thought much about you at all."
That sounded kind of personal to me. Maybe it's because there was no smiley face after it! ;)
I think it was quite the opposite. I just stated that I've never really given it any thought as to who you are. I think someone is wearing their feelings on their sleeves.
Response: Here's the quote again:
"I'm sorry but I've never really given much thought as to who you are. I have never really thought much about you at all."
I guess I just thought it sounded harsh. If you didn't mean it that way, I believe you.
"Read the verse, It just says that I shall fear no man if God is on my side, That is the reason I post under my name.
Psalm 118:6
David Matlock "
Response:
I was referring to your phil 4:13 verse.
NBBCOF,
Thank you for taking up for me. I've obviously offended the big guy!
Mike, I was actually beginning to like you too! So, when is it that you are moving?
Herd-
What would you like to know about?
heardenuf wrote:
"I'd like to hear some of it."
I'd like to hear some of it again, too. Enlighten us, wwjd!
daisy said:
"I worked with PW but knew nothing of this situation. I was there when the "incident" must have taken place! I think SG should have taken action then. Don't let the staff and pro SG fool you!"
Response: I think SG was in WJ Baptist at the time. I think I know what you mean though.
New BBC Open Forum said...
mike bratton wrote:
"Please, whoever you are, shut down your browser before you injure yourself any more than you already have."
Not so fast, Mike.
Thank you, ma'am. With my two bad knees, I'm rarely referred to as "fast." Now, back in the day...
Wwjd may have been mistaken about me but possesses a great deal of knowledge. Some of it's pretty interesting, too.
So making remarks about how fun it is to mock others, presuming another poster to be dishonest, and suggesting Bellevue leadership would "use a young pretty girl to tempt some of these men out of their anonymity" are all well and good, just so long as there's some grist in there for the mill?
Think about it, Nass.
--Mike
Mike,
I realized when I asked you if you could forgive me that I didn't appologize to you about that! I'm so very sorry! Now could you let it go?
NBBCOF, since you are being so nice to me and we have sang songs around the camp fire:
Ask me a question and I will tell you no lies!
piglet said:
Piglet says:
Building a set for Donna to make "Beth Moore" type videos to sell - profit goes to SG's company.
Response: Because you say it is so? Could it be that "the set" is also used for Stev and his intros to the tv broadcast? What is SG's company. Is it like LWF?
Heardenuf said:
Co-mingling of funds (against IRS tax code)
Response:
Why is the IRS not involoved?
Piglet says:
Who says they are not or won't be?
Response: You answer a question with another question? When/if it occurs, I will believe it and deal with it then...not before.
Heardenuf said;
Nondisclosue statements for staff as they leave their positions.
Response: That they willingly sign? I'd like to see one. Perhaps you can scan and post.
Piglet says:
Unfortunately, they want you to sign it and give it back. I don't know anybody with a copy.
DOES SOMEONE HAVE A COPY?
This was brought up in the CC meeting (the last one). Harry admitted there was such a form and it WAS new but when asked who introduced this form, he said "I don't know."
Response: That still doesn't explain why someone would sign somethging they don't agree with.
Heardenurf:
Threatening Mike Spradlin for speaking his conscience.
Response: Please, you heard him threaten Mike Spradlin?
Piglet said:
He threatened possible retaliation if an apology was not offered publicly for his statement. Sorry, cannot reveal my source here. :)
Response: I heard something bad about someone too, but can't tell you who or what was said about who or what. Trust me!
Heardenuf:
Hiding a pedophile on staff.
Response: The report isn't out yet, is it? I will admit, that this bothers me too!
"Piglet says:
The story is already out. How it will get changed to protect the guilty is beside the point. So few people have talked to the families involved that the congregation will believe whatever is said. "
Response: Who says it will protect the guilty? Have you read it? Have you talked to the families?
Mike,
You call it grist; others call it evidence. You say tomato; I say tomahto. But let's not call the whole thing off... not just yet.
phil413 said...
Hey Herd,
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. I have used that verse more in the last 6 mos than ever before. I still do not see how you relate that verse to me not thinking about who you are. I think maybe that verse is what gives me strength not to think about so much of the stuff I read on here.
Psalm 118:6
David
Response: OK, evidently I took it wrong and apologize for that. I was saying that if you were attacking me (which you say you were not) then you might consider the verse in the light of having the strength not to attack me. All of that is moot at this point since I believe now, that you were not attacking me. Again, sorry.
phil413 said...
Hey everybody,
Mike's baaaaaack.
Mike never went anywhere, David.
I can't say I have misssed the old Mike. I was kind of getting accustomed to the new toned down Mike.
"Old Mike" = "Mike you don't agree with."
"New Mike" = "Mike you do agree with."
I'll ask you what I asked Nass, David. Do you tolerate the actions of "wwjd"?
And for the record we have a great blog administrator here so you don't have to pretend to be the enforcer when you grace us with your presence.
Who's pretending? If I see something that's not right, I speak up about it. You might have noticed that I'm not overly concerned about the "affiliation" of those with whom I converse.
You have your own blog where you can belittle blogers that aren't directing their posts to you. You might feel like the Maytag repairman though if that was your only duty.
Why do I think you'd be much more polite in person, David?
--Mike
Heardenuf
You don't want answers.
You are here to antagonize and discredit.
As I have said, we don't need your support.
By the way,you really BELIEVE Craig Parker recanted his story? And who, pray tell, told you that?
Just a rhetorical question. No answer necessary.
"Andrew said...
Another "check" is why SG is pursuing additional stations for Bellevue services."
Response: I'll bite. Could it be that he wants another venue to share the Gospel with the lost? How much do you think airtime on PAX is anyway?
"Expansion seems oddly timed when we have more important issues on the table and money to pay the bills in slowing down."
Anyone? "
Response: I thought we had $30 million in the bank. Why would they be worried about paying the bills with all of that cash in the bank?
wwjd wrote:
"NBBCOF, since you are being so nice to me and we have sang songs around the camp fire:
"Ask me a question and I will tell you no lies!"
Oooh, so many questions. Where do I begin?
How about a certain list kept by a certain person documenting dates and places when another person supposedly snubbed said person's spouse? Didn't that strike you as a little... odd?
New BBC Open Forum said...
Mike,
You call it grist; others call it evidence. You say tomato; I say tomahto. But let's not call the whole thing off... not just yet.
I'm still hoping for a direct answer to my question, if you please. Is the "evidence" worth the nonsense?
And as someone else has asked, to what "evidence" do you refer?
--Mike
WWJD said...
Mike,
I realized when I asked you if you could forgive me that I didn't appologize to you about that! I'm so very sorry! Now could you let it go?
By all means.
--Mike
Not to heardenuf
To all;
Heardenuf said:
Response: I thought we had $30 million in the bank. Why would they be worried about paying the bills with all of that cash in the bank?
Piglet says:
Funny, alot of that money was given last year in a love offering believing a prayer chapel was going to be built.....that just sorta got shelved, now, didn't it?
I'm sure there is a LOGICAL explanation for hording all that money and then having ANOTHER love offering this year....let's see..
Piglet said...
Heardenuf
You don't want answers.
You are here to antagonize and discredit.
Response: Discredit yes, antagonize no. It is easy to discredit those who have no facts.
"As I have said, we don't need your support."
Response: And you will not get it. Take Charlie Fox's advice and not respond to me.
"By the way,you really BELIEVE Craig Parker recanted his story? And who, pray tell, told you that?"
Response: Yes, I do and that would be Ted Minor and Terry Brimhall who met with Craig and Bellevue so that Craig could see the books. Ask Ted and Terry, they'll tell you.
"Just a rhetorical question. No answer necessary. "
Response:
I'm glad to answer a question that I have factual confirmation of. I heard it come out of Ted's mouth.
Karen said...
About visiting other churches, at GBC and Faith it's like old home week. My best friend's boss goes to Kirby Woods Baptist and she reports of the "Bellevue refugees"...Karen
I see where Donna Gaines is the featured speaker Jan 26-27 at Kirby Woods' Women's Retreat.
Piglet said...
...
I'm sure there is a LOGICAL explanation for hording all that money and then having ANOTHER love offering this year....let's see.."
If my Bellevue history is off, please let me know--but haven't we had a Love Offering every year since 1929 or so?
--Mike
Oh, you must be referring to the list SG had that he threw in front of Dr. Spradlin when he met with him a couple of weeks ago! Yes, I found that rather odd. Why would SG try to make a mountain out of a mole hill when Dr. Spradlin clearly had no idea that he didn't speak to Donna or the girls in different places?! When Dr. Spradlin appologized about supposedly "snubbing" them SG got really mad and wadded up the paper and threw it away and left really, really mad. Then a couple days later he went by MS's office and appologized and was shaking, but then asked if he could tell others that he appologized? Gosh, I don't know about MS, but I'm really worried that the stress is getting to him (SG). Does this answer your question?
mike bratton wrote:
"I'm still hoping for a direct answer to my question, if you please. Is the "evidence" worth the nonsense?
"And as someone else has asked, to what "evidence" do you refer?"
1. Please define the "nonsense" to which you refer.
2. You can ask wwjd who seems willing to answer questions tonight.
I need to get to bed soon. Got to get up in the morning.
Regarding Craig Parker's so called recanting:
Response: Yes, I do and that would be Ted Minor and Terry Brimhall who met with Craig and Bellevue so that Craig could see the books. Ask Ted and Terry, they'll tell you.
Piglet :
you can bet I will be checking THIS out. My sources say nothing of the sort. But I know Ted.
Piglet said...
Not to heardenuf
To all;
Heardenuf said:
Response: I thought we had $30 million in the bank. Why would they be worried about paying the bills with all of that cash in the bank?
Piglet says:
"Funny, alot of that money was given last year in a love offering believing a prayer chapel was going to be built.....that just sorta got shelved, now, didn't it
I'm sure there is a LOGICAL explanation for hording all that money and then having ANOTHER love offering this year....let's see.."
Response: How long did it take to use the 2003 Love Offering? I believe the children's building is just now getting finished. Wasn't Dr. Rogers still Pastor then?
How long did it take after Bellevue unanimously agreed to move campuses?
Rome wasn't built in a day.
Every year I have been at BBC there has been a Love Offering.
Just a quick question for anyone who might have some information...
Wasn't today (Jan 20) the day that the investigative committee supposed to turn in their final report to the Personnel Committee?
Has anyone heard whether they did or not? If so, when will it be made public?
I'm glad to answer a question that I have factual confirmation of. I heard it come out of Ted's mouth.
I hope we're talking about the salary and salary advances because that is what I am referring to.
Piglet said...
Regarding Craig Parker's so called recanting:
Response: Yes, I do and that would be Ted Minor and Terry Brimhall who met with Craig and Bellevue so that Craig could see the books. Ask Ted and Terry, they'll tell you.
"Piglet :
you can bet I will be checking THIS out. My sources say nothing of the sort. But I know Ted. "
Response: Let us know after you talk to him. I want to see your post here on the blog. This goes to my credibility, so please post as soon as you know. By the way, you can ask any deacon that was at the meeting in which Ted confirmed Craig left the meeting with no concerns over Steve's credit cards or the finances of the church.
You might want to check your sources too!
phil413 said...
Hey Herd,
All is well.
David
Response: Thank you.
NBBCOF,
Isn't today (Jan 20) the day that the Personnel Committee is supposed to receive their report regarding the PW investigation?
If so, has there been any information regarding whether they have indeed received the report? And when it might be publicly released?
Mike said:
If my Bellevue history is off, please let me know--but haven't we had a Love Offering every year since 1929 or so?
Piglet said:
Yeah, and we were always told what it was for. Last year it was for a prayer chapel that never happened and this year they couldn't even say wghat it was for.
phil413 said...
Mike,
It makes little difference whether I agree with you or not. I have had many civil conversations with people who don't agree with my position. You have a very condescending attitude toward people whom you don't agree with.
And labeling people with whom one disagrees as "condescending" is so much easier than having actual discussions with them, right?
I have a sneaky suspicion that WWJD is a female and I was just going to the aid of a damsel in distress. I have also seen first hand info. that she (if I'm right about the gender thing) knows what she's talking about. Obviously Nass has seen the same info as well.
So you'll tolerate specious behavior from anyone who can deliver the goods?
--Mike
Night Folks,
Got to be at church tomorrow.
You know how it is to be a Christian Soldier called to attention front & center.
Piglet said...
"I hope we're talking about the salary and salary advances because that is what I am referring to."
Response: I am speaking of the credit card issues and any financial problems Bellevue might have had. Ted stated that Craig left the meeting satisfied that there was nothing wrong.
I have been reading today's thread, and I like the music and I like Jamie Parker leading it.
Nothing against Jim Whitmire either.
Piglet said:
"Yeah, and we were always told what it was for. Last year it was for a prayer chapel that never happened and this year they couldn't even say wghat it was for. "
Response: Come on. We were told what it was for. You may not like it, but we were told.
heardenuf said
Ted confirmed Craig left the meeting with no concerns over Steve's credit cards or the finances of the church.
Piglet Says:
This won't fly. I am not referring to credit cards at all.
Any other questions I can answer for you before I go to bed? I need some sleep before tomorrow so I can be fresh of mind!
Heardenuf said:
Response: Come on. We were told what it was for. You may not like it, but we were told.
Piglet says:
No, I never heard anything but "the long range committee is working on it"
Time for bed.
Goodnight all.
Yes, wwjd. That's the list to which I was referring. Mike, I recall your saying a few weeks ago that your "super secret source" (I'll forgive the alliteration this one time) was Dr. Spradlin, so you might want to ask him about this.
No more questions tonight, wwjd. Thank you. I must get some rest myself. Sleep well!
Piglet said...
...
I'm sure there is a LOGICAL explanation for hording all that money and then having ANOTHER love offering this year....let's see.."
Response: I don't think you understand. Just because someone might make $50,000 a year does not mean that they have $50,000 in the bank. The budget does require payments. I was being facetious.
I would think that many churches would be thankful not to be paying all of their tithe money to debt service, but rather that 20% go to Missions. You do look at the budget that goes out every year, don't you?
You too NBBCOF! I am glad to have answered some questions for you! I do hope that Mike will verify this information! Maybe he will be nicer to me when he knows I am telling the truth! Goodnight everyone and see you in the morning!
scion,
I haven't heard anything about it, but maybe we'll know something tomorrow.
Piglet said...
heardenuf said
Ted confirmed Craig left the meeting with no concerns over Steve's credit cards or the finances of the church.
Piglet Says:
This won't fly. I am not referring to credit cards at all.
Response: I was referring to the meeting Craig had with Bellevue regarding the credit cards AND THE FINANCES OF THE CHURCH.Please read carefully. When you talk to Ted you can ask him.
You are the one that questioned me. I brought it up first, so how am I supposed to know what you were referring to?
Piglet said...
Mike said:
If my Bellevue history is off, please let me know--but haven't we had a Love Offering every year since 1929 or so?
Piglet said:
Yeah, and we were always told what it was for. Last year it was for a prayer chapel that never happened and this year they couldn't even say wghat it was for.
Regarding the 2006 Love Offering, I quote thusly, and like so:
"What are some ministry and space needs the committee has identified?"
-Additional space in the Preschool and Children's Ministry as our church grows
-Student Ministry space needs
-Activities Ministry space needs
-Parking and traffic flow
-Sanctuary renovation needs
-A chapel to meet the needs of funerals, weddings, prayer, and other gatherings
-New ways to use technology and media to reach the Memphis area
-Administrative offices centralization
"What about the Prayer Center from last year's Love Offering?"
When the Long Range Planning Committee began its work, the committee was asked to factor the need for a Prayer Center into the Master Plan. The committee felt it would be wise to not begin construction until a Master Plan addressing all other space needs was in place. Gifts from the 2005 Love Offering have been set aside.
Hope that helps.
--Mike
Scion said...
NBBCOF,
Isn't today (Jan 20) the day that the Personnel Committee is supposed to receive their report regarding the PW investigation?
If so, has there been any information regarding whether they have indeed received the report? And when it might be publicly released?
"
Response: From Bellevue's site:
Report Dates
January 20: Investigative Committee turns report over to Personnel Committee.
To be announced: Personnel Committee will report the results of the investigation to the congregation before the end of January.
I'm assuming that means next Sunday, the 27th since there is only one Sunday left in the month. We'll see.
Thank you Mike Bratton for saving me the time (which could have amounted to minutes) of showing piglet that there was indeed something to give our money back to the Lord for, instead of Steve Gaines "hording" it.
Did I mention the 20% to missions.
allofgrace said...
What some should realize is that these issues reach beyond Bellevue's walls..as many have noted..the world is watching..they're watching to see how this all ends up. Bellevue, in her position as one of the most high profile churches in the SBC, has influence..like it or not. How this plays out will set precedence. Some of you say.."why not just go elsewhere?"...well here's the thing..as I and many others see it..if the way things are currently being done at BBC succeeds in remaining in place...pastor rule, with no accountability, secrecy, etc...there will be a domino effect on the churches of the SBC...in short..there'll be no "elsewhere" to go.
response: that has been one of my greatest concerns...no "elsewhere" to go!
NASS, do you know what the members only blog is all about?
and does that mean members of BBC???
i-flyaway said...
allofgrace said...
What some should realize is that these issues reach beyond Bellevue's walls..as many have noted..the world is watching..they're watching to see how this all ends up. Bellevue, in her position as one of the most high profile churches in the SBC, has influence..like it or not. How this plays out will set precedence. Some of you say.."why not just go elsewhere?"...well here's the thing..as I and many others see it..if the way things are currently being done at BBC succeeds in remaining in place...pastor rule, with no accountability, secrecy, etc...there will be a domino effect on the churches of the SBC...in short..there'll be no "elsewhere" to go.
response: that has been one of my greatest concerns...no "elsewhere" to go!
Response:
You can always go "presby" like allofgrace. ;)
I remember Dr. Rogers saying that he was Baptist because they fit most closely with his own theology, but that if next week, the Methodist lined up more closely, he would be a Methodist.
Food for thought.
faithnhope said...
heardenuf,
Sorry, but I don't see Dr. Gaines name connected with that quote.
Response: I don't know what you're taliking about. Help!
"I can't speak for Diana, but I've never heard the Pastor misuse God's word and I've never said he has. That's all it would take to chase him off. "
Response: So you're not h who was quoted along with Diana? I have never heard the Pastor misuse God's word either. That would surely chase me off!
Some people would say that some of Steve's sermons have been timed for his own benefit (such as the one on forgiveness). Personally, I just think that he's preaching from what God is putting on his heart at the time.
Response: I agree with you on this. That was my point to Diana. She is the one who said he was twisting scripture. I was merely trying to find out when and how as well as hold her accountable for such a strong statement as blasphemy.
"Seriously, heard, this blog isn't filled with anti-Steve people. We just want what's best for the church. Spend a little time getting to know the bloggers, and you'll be see that. "
Response: I'll have to take your word for that. I began posting for the reason stated above...accountability. I don't think you should be able to make a statement as strong as saying Steve Gaines is a blasphemer without backing it up.
I have noticed that for several days Memphis has been asking about the "members only" blog. This is something I am curious about as well- I am also curious why he is being ignored?
Those who demand information from others should be willing to offer it up themselves!
You could at least answer a simple "I can't tell you anything" because I don't think for a second that everyone here is totally unaware of what it is for.
New BBC Open Forum said...
heardenuf (who apparently hasn't) wrote:
"Karen said...
"faithnhope,
"When you've got a Finance Committee that won't even pray over a $25,000 contribution suggestion (regardless of where it went), then there is something wrong."
"Response: Did someone from the Finance Comm. tell you there was no prayer?"
Actually, Wayne Vander Steeg, who is chairman of the Finance Committee, said exactly that in the next to the last CC meeting on 11-26-06. To his credit, near the end of that meeting, after much criticism from some of the attendees, he did apologize for that decision. As far as I know he's the only one to date who's taken any responsibility for it though.
Response:
Thank you for posting that. I was not at the meeting and did not know that he apologized for that.
Really, this is all I want. If you say something back it up. This is the first question of someone's post that has been responded to with something that can be confirmed.
It doesn't matter if the church you attend is Baptist, Methodist, or even Presbyterian as long as they're serving the Lord and so are you.
Bepatient said...
I have noticed that for several days Memphis has been asking about the "members only" blog. This is something I am curious about as well- I am also curious why he is being ignored?
Those who demand information from others should be willing to offer it up themselves!
You could at least answer a simple "I can't tell you anything" because I don't think for a second that everyone here is totally unaware of what it is for.
Response: I agree. My fear is that it is a place of like minded bloggers who can stir the pot without being challenged. Kind of sounds like they now have what they have protested against... a secretive, small group that won't give out any info and won't answer questions. Oh , the irony. Maybe we should starta site savingsavingbellevue.com ;)
Scion said...
It doesn't matter if the church you attend is Baptist, Methodist, or even Presbyterian as long as they're serving the Lord and so are you.
12:35 AM, January 21, 2007
Response:
Precisely my point. Many here would lead you to believe that they can only attend Bellevue even if they disagree with the Pastor/leadership.
FallethNtheDitch said...
Look for more Damage control propaganda in sunday school classes tommorrow.I received one last week from my sunday school teacher.these could be handouts usally 1 to 2 pages.they might have the theme brokeness on them with a question statement answered by B.the correct spin statement.Or could be other handouts with Pro forgive the pastor or steve gaines rhertoric defending PW.Also remember seeing Paul williams bout 8 or 9 rows back at the communcations meeting.I mean by Damage control is gaines sermons that are pre planned for defending their Agenda.They will use this trick to dupe new members and they don"t care if this cause dissenion in class.Its also called divide and conquer.Curious to see how much they spin in the next couple of weeks.Folks bellevue has been hijacked by self serving men and others I talk to every week are starting to see the propaganda...
Response: Quite the conspiracy theory. One of the most detailed I have seen.
memphis & bepatient,
I honestly can't tell you anything. You need to ask Jim Haywood because it's on his site. I really don't think it amounts to anything, but I understand it's his own blog so really you should ask him if you're interested. Frankly, I've got enough to keep up with here without subscribing to another group.
NBBCOF
Piglet said...
NASS
I thought bbc empolyee was a bratty little kid last night but his use of Tim's I.D. leads me to believe they are in leadership or assigned by leadership to tarnish his credibility.
"Kinda scary considering the language and viscious remarks that have been made by this person. What will they not stoop to? "
Response:
I trust the they you refer to above is not meant to be Bellevue?
WWJD said...
Seriously Mike,
You might be surprised to know what some of them have stooped to do! No kidding here!
Response:
I'd like to know if you're willing to tell.
Ah, finally caught up with all I missed, so off to bed! I'll be watching though, so no innuendos/insinuations/exaggerations/ and I won't have to post. Only facts that can be verified
Thanks in advance.
Thanks for your answer NASS!
heardenuf said...
Response: I agree. My fear is that it is a place of like minded bloggers who can stir the pot without being challenged. Kind of sounds like they now have what they have protested against... a secretive, small group that won't give out any info and won't answer questions. Oh , the irony. Maybe we should starta site savingsavingbellevue.com ;)
response: Now don't be talking 'bout BBC Leadership like that! Goodnight!!
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