Monday, October 30, 2006

Purpose Driven?

This seems to be a recurring theme in the comments -- that Bellevue may be moving toward a Purpose Driven model. Please comment on anything you perceive being related to the PDC movement in this thread.

1. Do you think Bellevue is moving in this direction? Why or why not? If so, does this concern you?

2. Have you read The Purpose Driven Life? If so, what did you think about it?

3. Has your Bible Fellowship Class or other group done a study of the PDL? If so, what are your thoughts about it?

4. Do you see this movement and its wide appeal across denominational lines as evidence of the "one world church" the Bible tells us will emerge in the latter days?

These are some links from my personal list, but there are many other sources for information on this topic.

Letter to editor of the Americus Times-Recorder (two pages long).

Reply to above.

Are Rick Warren's Teachings at Bellevue Baptist?

Berean's PDL Discernment Tool

Book review -- Transitioning

Church Growth Movement (multiple articles).

Change Dividing Southern Baptist Mega-Church thread pertaining to Bellevue.

Lighthouse Trails Research Project

One Man's Purpose-Driven Journal

Spirit-Led or Purpose Driven?

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6

The Purpose-Driven Pastor discussion.

Transitioning an established church.

Signs of the church growth movement.

Please remember to keep your comments civil and respectful and reflective of the Christians we are. We don't have to agree, but we don't have to be disagreeable either.

52 comments:

Evan said...

It should be noted that PDC/PDL is not necessarily synonomous with seeker-sensitive services or the "church growth movement." They certainly can co-exist in the same church, but that is not necessarily always the case. Some of the statements and links concerning this issue appear to imply that these things are the same. A good discussion of these items will treat them separately.

Will McKay said...

Tying in Bellevue with anything Purpose Driven is an outrageous joke.

For those of you that are critical of Rick Warren, have you read anything that he himself has written (not what Jim Sunquist has said about him)?

Pick up the book for yourself and see what he has to say. Stop swallowing every spurious argument that someone else presents. Do your own investigation.

Lwood said...

Every indication is that Bellevue Leaders are trying to carry Bellevue Baptist Church towards the Purpose Driven Church...My prayer is that our members have been taught scriptures enough that we will have enough to stand up and fight this movement. Our family will stay as long as we see there is a chance but I do not want to stay until I am bitter toward the church as a whole. I want to be where I can serve the Lord in a loving church...As Bellevue once was a family of friends and friends to the family...

Josh Tucker said...

To no one in particular,

Be careful that you do not engage in an intellectual fallacy known as correlation without causation. Similarity is not necessarily the same as actuality.

MOM4 said...

RE: Comments made on another thread about Dr Rogers' endorsement of PDC/PDL:

“I cannot say that I know God is going to fully recover me, but I can say I believe He will. I really do, and I’m not just blowing smoke. ... I have a good confidence in my heart. In the meanwhile, I am not morose or unhappy. I don’t dwell on this. I just do the best I can and enjoy life.”

The above is a statement taken from the "Florida Baptist Witness" interview. It was made by Dr Adrian Rogers not too long before he went home.
I am posting it here because I know in my heart that Dr Rogers' walk with the Lord was the closest you could have on this side of Glory. Yet he felt that the Lord was going to heal him, which He did, He took him home for the ultimate healing.
This goes to show that while on this earth we most certainly look thru the glass darkly.
I have trouble believing that Dr Rogers would have allowed the dumbing down and lowering the standards of the Lord's church to attract the world and drag it's values into our midst.

New BBC Open Forum said...

To mom4 & ilovebbc,

Your comments in the other thread regarding Dr. Rogers endorsing Rick Warren's Purpose Driven Church were duly noted. I have no problem leaving the beginning of that discussion there, and you can continue it here should you desire.

I found that endorsement myself several weeks ago, and I have to say it gave me chills. I really had to wonder if Dr. Rogers didn't see the direction this movement was going, if not then, at least in the ensuing years. I was shocked and surprised he had endorsed Rick Warren's teachings. They seem so out of sync with everything I always thought Dr. Rogers stood for.

But remember Zondervan Press which is part of the SBC publishes Rick Warren's books. That bothers me, too.

Other than knowing about the PDL book, until recently I had no idea this was such a huge and organized movement. Several friends highly recommended reading PDL, but I've always shied away from it. There was always that "something" about it that didn't seem quite right. Sort of that old "check in my spirit" thing. Now I've read most of it, and I truly believe that this was the Holy Spirit telling me that this is a place I shouldn't go. And the fact that Bellevue went through the 40 Days thing, and several BF classes are in the midst of it right now, is cause for even more concern to me.

To me this is nothing more than fulfillment of prophecy and the "one world church" the Bible tells us will emerge in the latter days. Why do you think the movement has such wide appeal across denominational lines? If the Catholics and Mormons and so many others are embracing it, how much substance can it really contain? What shocks and distresses me greatly is that Southern Baptists seem to be leading the charge. The issues at Bellevue right now, while in some ways related, pale in comparison to this purpose driven "cult" we're now seeing.

NASS

Anonymous said...

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa there...

"If the Catholics and Mormons and so many others are embracing it, how much substance can it really contain?"

Non-Christian religions such as Mormonism make it a habit to copy Christianity in one way or another, just as counterfeiters try to make fake money look real.

But do you seriously lump the Catholic denomination in with non-Christian religions?

--Mike

mostlylurkin said...

I remember Dr. Rogers addressing the congregation during the kickoff of the PDL book and eluding to certain recommendations included in that book. I remember it because I thought it uncharacteristic of him to promote something and at the same time say he did not agree with all that was contained within. It would certainly be enlightening if someone with better resources could come up with a copy of his sermon and the actual words he used to describe his view of PDL. My wife has this same recollection of Dr. Rogers’s expression of doubt and reservation.

We own two of the PDL books and have no further use for them. Mine is mostly unused beyond the first couple of chapters. I suppose we should consider disposing of them since space is at a premium in our modest abode. My guess is there may be thousands of these books at Bellevue and considered by the owners to be of no further use. I am a person of plain talk and not moved to symbolic demonstrations, but what better place to kill two birds than to lay this symbol at the foot of the alter. This just hit me, since we will all be walking down the isle to place our symbols of hope in the receptacles, why not at the same time place these symbols of fear on the steps of our sacred alter and be done with it.

If this sounds like a plan, perhaps our capable moderator or any other RW skeptic would expand and elaborate.

Evan said...

NASS said, "But remember Zondervan Press which is part of the SBC publishes Rick Warren's books. That bothers me, too."

Just as a point of clarification, there is no affiliation betweeen Zondervan Press and the SBC. The SBC publishing house goes under the names of Lifeway, Broadman, Holman, and Broadman & Holman. Zondervan is owned by HarperCollins Publishers, a secular publishing house. Zondervan considers itself to be an evangelical press, and they publish many high quality, Christian books. However, they should not be confused with the SBC publishing house (Lifeway, et al).

Evan said...

NASS,
Can you please expound on how the PDC/PDL movement is the fulfillment of prophecy of a one-world church? Just curious.

New BBC Open Forum said...

evan wrote:

"Just as a point of clarification, there is no affiliation betweeen Zondervan Press and the SBC. The SBC publishing house goes under the names of Lifeway, Broadman, Holman, and Broadman & Holman. Zondervan is owned by HarperCollins Publishers, a secular publishing house. Zondervan considers itself to be an evangelical press, and they publish many high quality, Christian books. However, they should not be confused with the SBC publishing house (Lifeway, et al)."

Thank you so much for correcting my error! I don't know what I was thinking other than that the Baptist Press, which isn't a publisher of books but of daily news in the SBC, has been a big defender of Rick Warren's books and methods. Guess I was still foggy from that fainting spell the other day when Mike Bratton said he agreed with something I had said!

Anyway, I'm glad someone was paying attention, and I stand humbly corrected.

I'll expound on your question later.

NASS

mostlylurkin said...

Exerpts from Rick Warren's Toolbox

So they call it baggage………

“As we have continued through our process of transition as a church, we have also continued to bring those individuals into our church family who do not have "the baggage" of how church should be done.”


My way or the highway……..

“You must remember that the transition will not please everyone - that would be impossible. Do not abandon your vision to appease a person or even a group of persons who choose to leave. God will send other leaders to take their place.”

“Possibly, you will face challenges from staff, particularly those who were present when you arrived. You must deal with those swiftly and decisively, preferably putting those issues to rest before you start the transition process. It will mean dismissing staff if they do not "buy in" to the transition.“

Anyone feeling jerked?............

“many pastors trying to transition their churches think they can treat their transitioning church like a church plant. That is a fatal mistake. You cannot jerk a transitioning church into a new worship style.”

Preaching Change - Begin the transition with your preaching. Preach the Bible in such a way as to demonstrate how the Scriptures can meet people's needs.

Worship Planning - Form a worship planning team that will help you plan services to correspond with the message so that all songs match the theme of the message.

Hymn Arrangements - Introduce new arrangements of favorite hymns.
Introduce Some Praise Choruses - Start with a new chorus of the month.

Move Into a Blended Service - This will happen naturally as you continue to introduce praise choruses.

they think, "We are changing,"...duh

Begin to Use a Praise Team - This and the next step are the most challenging part of the worship transition. When some people see a Praise Team in front of them, they think, "We are changing," and the reaction can be extreme.

Introduce Other Instruments - Gradually de-emphasize the piano and organ while introducing other instruments like guitars and drums. This transition can be started with Sunday night services and carefully introduced to Sunday morning.

Diversify Your Approach to Worship - This, too, must be done gradually. However, once you have passed the previous two steps, you have traversed the most difficult part of the worship transition. At times you will need to increase the tempo of worship to become more celebrative

Start Praise Teams and Worship Training with Your Children and Youth - This will ensure that the worship legacy continues in your church.

Sound familiar?

We chose to dissolve all committees and go with three standing teams and numerous ministry teams:

allofgrace said...

Like I've said,
You can say it's not PDC...but a rose by any other name is still a rose.

New BBC Open Forum said...

And if it walks like a duck...

NASS

Diana Hart said...

Evan, you need to read the link to James Sundquist's article on the Global P.E.A.C.E. plan on www.abrahamic-faith.com/False-Teachers.html - click on Rick Warren and His Global P.E.A.C.E Plan. Very enlightening and why NASS mentioned one world church. RW is trying to usher in "Kingdom Now" without Jesus' help. It is a fascinating book. To "straining gnats" who thinks James Sundquist is a nut - he and others seem to back their arguments up very well and many times with page numbers to his PDL book so you can look it up yourself provided you haven't trashed your copy yet. I'm planning to set fire to mine as soon as I finish researching RW. The Lighthousetrailsresearch.com website is fantastic and has articles from different authors on many movements going on throughout the church. I loved David Jeremiah and used to listen to him every day until I found out his church is now on the PDC list and he is also endorsing New Agers in his books. To MB - I know you won't believe me so feel free to research for yourself. I think he has a New Ager referenced on the cover of his Captured By Grace book or it might be inside the first few pages. I do not have the book but my friend does so it is easy enough to verify. He also has another book that references many New Agers - the name of that book is escaping me at the moment. I will try to look it up and get back to you. In addition, I read about half of a very long article last night on the abrahamic faith website called "Birds of a Feather" and it shows a very long line of New Agers that Rick Warren is associated with and everything is referenced. He even wrote about them in his PDL book! I didn't spend a lot of time checking out scripture and names he threw out in that book because Dr. Rogers endorsed him and I assumed he was fine. I can tell you I will never assume anything of the sort again (nothing against Dr. Rogers - I assume he was misled as well as tons of other pastors around the country).

Also MB, I have been told by a respected seminary professor that Catholics are not a cult but a sect. As I recall, a cult is anything that adds to Jesus. I can't remember what exactly he said about a sect. I believe there are many Christian Catholics because I had good friends in college who were Catholic and who also had a personal relationship with Jesus. Unfortunately many do not and are more worried about Mary and their personal relationship to their priest. I think that is what NASS is referring to however I would never put words in her mouth. I have only been researching PD/RW for about 2 months so please give me a break if I have misstated something.

Thanks in advance,

Diana Hart

Anonymous said...

"I am a person of plain talk and not moved to symbolic demonstrations, but what better place to kill two birds than to lay this symbol at the foot of the alter. This just hit me, since we will all be walking down the isle to place our symbols of hope in the receptacles, why not at the same time place these symbols of fear on the steps of our sacred alter and be done with it."

Because you will be taking a time of offering and worship, and insinutating into it a time of protest and disruption.

That's never a good idea.

--Mike

New BBC Open Forum said...

This is an interesting read.

Your thoughts?

NASS

Anonymous said...

Or "insinuating," even.

--Mike

New BBC Open Forum said...

Hey Diana!

Welcome! I've tried three times to post comments to the MS Comments forum to answer the questions you asked me, but I guess the moderator over there isn't seeing my comments because they're not getting posted. Since things seem to have wrapped up there, I hope you'll hang around here now.

You touched on a lot of the points I was going to "expound" upon in answer to Evan's question. I'm still working on that, Evan!

About the Catholic/Mormon thing. You expressed what I meant very well. I've always considered both to be so-called "Christian" religions, but both have added so much to the Bible and so many extra "requirements" for salvation that in my opinion, both miss the mark. So yes, Mike. I put them both on about the same level, although if I had to rank them I would put the Catholics a couple of rungs above the Mormons. I just can't justify praying to Mary and the saints as being anything more than a waste of time.

BTW, in answer to your question if I could find an online copy of the Discovery 101 material similar to the Discovery 301 material, I couldn't. I have some information about the material used in BBC's Discovery class I'll share later.

NASS

allofgrace said...

I'm glad to see people investigating PDC/PDL..it's always wise anytime you hear words like "pardigm, life-changing" etc, to look closely at such claims about a book, philosophy, or program concerning the church. We have a responsibility as Christians to weigh all these things in light of scriptural truth. There are many bad movements and teachings around us these days...Emergent Church, Open Theism, etc. These are things we as Christians cannot afford to ignore. The way most false teachings find their way into the church is by using vernacular that most Christians are familiar with, which gives it an air of legitimacy...even the Mormons, with their focus on family values, rings true with many people in this day of the disintegrating family...but it's teachings are anything but "Christian". Also, I don't know about you, but when I look at a book..I want to know as much as I can find out about it's author...where they went to school/seminary, who have been their greatest influences, what reviewers have to say about their book, etc. For instance a big influence in both Warren's and Hybel's ministries is Robert Shueller (hope i spelled that right)..the famous "positive Christianity" guru of the Crystal Cathedral in California. Both men attended his seminars on how to grow a church. Follow that line of influence back a little further...Shueller's biggest influence was Norman Vincent Peale..some of you may remember him if you're old enough...who propagated a religion of positive thinking. Unless I'm mistaken (someone can correct me if i'm wrong), Peale was a contemporary of L. Ron Hubbard of "dyanetics" fame..who I think (again correct me if I'm wrong), was the "founder" of the religion which Tom Cruise, John Travolta, and many in Hollywood circles ascribe to. I say all this point up the insidiousness of these heresies...these "fads" never really go away..they just morph over time into something with a new face...but the same underlying philosophy...the only way the child of God can discern these things is to have our senses trained and attuned to the truth of God's word...then when something comes along..no matter how subtle the error may be...it won't pass the smell test. Just something to think on.

Evan said...

NASS,
Thank you for your continued promise to address my question. I would like to make a disclaimer that I am in no way defending Rick Warren. I have never met him, nor have I ever attended a service at Saddleback. I have read PDC. The reason for asking my question was two-fold. First, the statement about Warren revealed a specific eschatological position (dispensationalism). Thus, in order to answer the question, a defense of dispensational eschatology must be made (the reference to a one-world church is almost exclusively dispensational). Second, such a statement also seems to imply that Rick Warren is either associated with, or perhaps is himself, the beast or the woman sitting on the beast of Revelation 17. While some may believe that, I would stress caution in connecting any person (even the worst of them) with the beast of Revelation. Similar connections were made of Hitler and others in history, but they were obviously not true. Therefore, I simply want to make you aware of the vast ramifications of your statement and the large body of material that will need to be addressed to effectively answer my question.

Thank you for your work on my question. I look forward to your response.

Evan said...

Diana,
Thank you for your response. I have perused the materials from Mr. Sundquist. While he makes some stinging critiques of Warren, his arguments are loaded with emotional appeals. I am not saying that Mr. Sundquist is necessarily wrong, I am only saying that his work could use some more objectivity, and his arguments could be stated more logically (rather than emotionally). Mr. Sundquist also makes his points from a dispensational eschatological standpoint. However, he neglects to lay that out as a basis of his argument. If one does not hold to a dispentational view, then his arguments fall apart. Also, he ties dispensationalism directly to those who read Scripture as literally true. I would like to point out that dispensationalism is a relatively new theological system (last 100 years or so); therefore, he would be dismissing even some of the great reformers (Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Hubmaier, etc)--in effect claiming that they did not believe the Bible was literally true. Now I do believe it is possible to make a defense for dispensationalism; however, we must be aware that such a defense must be made PRIOR to making claims based on that view.

This may seem to be off topic, but in reality, the topic of dispensationalism is directly related to the comments made about PDC/PDL being a one world church.

Food for thought.

Evan said...

Allofgrace,
I have thoroughly enjoyed our interaction over the last week or so. However, I feel obligated to point out a logical fallacy in your last comment. You make the mistake of associating Hubbard and Peale on the basis that they are contemporaries. Certainly they were contemporaries (in the broad sense of the term). Peale lived from 1898 to 1993, and Hubbard lived from 1911 to 1986. While Peale's "positive thinking" and Hubbard's "scientology" may have similar ideas, I am not aware of any connection between the two men. In fact, I would guess that their paths would not have crossed. Peale was a Reformed pastor, and Hubbard was a science fiction writer. If you can document a conenction between the two, then I will certainly retract my statement. However, my search has revealed no such connection. The result of your post (though probably completely unintended) was then to place a thought in the reader's mind that Warren and PDC/PDL are associated with Scientology. Let's be very careful here.

This is just a reminder that we should think before we speak/write and only say the things we know are true or can document/logically support as true. Allofgrace, keep up the good work.

allofgrace said...

Evan,
Thanks for bringing up the fact of the newness of dispensationalism..I think most folks these days don't realize just how recent this eschatological view is. At one time further back...there was a view similar to it...chialism..correct me if I'm wrong Evan...but in it's current form..is very recent.

allofgrace said...

Evan,
Thanks for correcting my timeline on Peale and Hubbard..I knew you could and would...I wasn't making a connection between the two...just pointing up some different ideas floating around..around the same time frame..which obviously don't exactly line up...I'm getting old..forgive me for my fading memory..lol. My main point is that these different ideas, don't seem to ever go away..they simply as I put it..morph and put on a new face in some instances..I guess I should add more details to my statements to better clarify what I'm saying, but I guess I feel I'm long winded enough already(chuckling). Again thanks, for sharing your knowledge and insights with us. Btw, I enjoy our exchanges as well.

Evan said...

Allofgrace,
You are correct in mentioning chiliasm. It was a very early form of premillennial eschatology. However, it is still very different from classical dispensationalism. Even historical premillennialism (which is very different from dispensationalism) accepts some basic ideas of chiliasm. Also, I need to correct my earlier statement about the age of dispensationalism--it is actually about 150-170 yrs old.

For the sake of this thread, we are going pretty far afield of the subject. Allofgrace, if you want to post something on your blog about it, I would be happy to continue the conversation there.

New BBC Open Forum said...

evan wrote:

"First, the statement about Warren revealed a specific eschatological position (dispensationalism). Thus, in order to answer the question, a defense of dispensational eschatology must be made (the reference to a one-world church is almost exclusively dispensational). Second, such a statement also seems to imply that Rick Warren is either associated with, or perhaps is himself, the beast or the woman sitting on the beast of Revelation 17. While some may believe that, I would stress caution in connecting any person (even the worst of them) with the beast of Revelation."

As for your first point, NASS will have to consult a dictionary to address the statement. You "amateur theologian" types need to remember that most of us... aren't.

And as for your second point, I was implying no such thing. We're told the anti-Christ will be handsome and charismatic. I find Rick Warren to be... neither.

NASS {with tongue firmly implanted in cheek}

New BBC Open Forum said...

churchmouse,

I'm probably going to kick myself over this when my mailbox fills up with hate mail (not implying from you), but try this:

notastepford_sheep@yahoo.com

Anonymous said...

"About the Catholic/Mormon thing. You expressed what I meant very well. I've always considered both to be so-called "Christian" religions, but both have added so much to the Bible and so many extra "requirements" for salvation that in my opinion, both miss the mark. So yes, Mike. I put them both on about the same level, although if I had to rank them I would put the Catholics a couple of rungs above the Mormons. I just can't justify praying to Mary and the saints as being anything more than a waste of time."

Sorry for the late response.

Catholicism is a Christian denomination, since they have the common core beliefs shared by all Christian denominations.

Mormonism is not a Christian denomination, since they reject the common core beliefs shared by all Christian denominations.

Mormonism teaches that God used to be "some guy" living on "some planet," who achieved godhood by being well-behaved. He and his goddess wife (yes, you read that correctly) came to this neck of the universe and started having babies. One baby was named "Jesus," another was named "Lucifer." And talk about staying pregnant--every living human being was originally born from goddess/mom.

I could continue, but I don't want to gross you out any more than I might have already. Except to leave you with this defining Mormon quote: "As god once was, man is. As God is, man may become."

To boil it down, Catholicism is a Christian denomination, and leads people to a saving relationship with Jesus Christ.

Mormonism is a non-Christian, anti-Christian group that leads people away from a saving relationship with Jesus Christ and leads them to an eternity separated from God in hell.

It might be more prudent to invest time in dealing with movements like the LDS than with the PDL, wouldn't you agree?

--Mike

allofgrace said...

Mike,
I have to disagree with you about Roman Catholicism. To be true to the "faith once for all delivered to the saints.." there are core doctrines that must be believed...even to be considered within the pale of Biblical orthodoxy. Catholicism is a faith+works religion...the Bible clearly teaches that we are justified by faith alone in Christ alone. Mary is considered as co-redemptress. .."there is no other name given...whereby men may be saved." They believe the priest has authority to absolve sin...only God defines what sin is, and has sole authority to forgive sin. They re-crucify Christ at mass....I could go on and on...but I think it's clear, that although they may share some terminology...they are far afield of that "faith once for all delivered to the saints."

Evan said...

I'm not exactly sure how this got to Catholics and Mormons--ah, the beauty of blogs!

I want to offer a via media here. Mormonism is certainly not a "Christian religion." The commonalities cease once you get past the ideas that Jesus actually lived on earth and that the Bible was written. The added "revelation" of the book of Mormon, etc, destroys all similarities.

Catholicism is a different animal. For the most part Catholics consider the Bible to be God's Word. Now whether or not they believe it is inerrant, infallible, etc, well, that depends on who you talk to. For the most part I would say probably not. Here is where things get more difficult. There are some sincere Catholics who are true believers--I know a few. They don't leave the Catholic Church because of the tradition or any of a number of reasons. At the same time, the officially sanctioned teachings of the church depart from Scripture (hence the Protestant Reformation of the 16th century).

What it comes down to is this. The Truth can be found in the Catholic church (if you look hard enough). The Truth cannot be found in the teachings of Mormonism--it is a false religion. Ultimately, we need to witness to both groups. Every once in a while, you may be pleasantly surpised to find a true believer among the Catholics.

Anonymous said...

allofgrace said...
Mike,
I have to disagree with you about Roman Catholicism. To be true to the "faith once for all delivered to the saints.." there are core doctrines that must be believed...even to be considered within the pale of Biblical orthodoxy.


I am not, by any stretch, an apologist for the Catholic denomination; their belief system is unnecessarily layered with that which is extra-Biblical. However, their own denominational declaration is that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and that good works stem from that salvation.

Yes, there are a number of problems with the denomination as a whole, many of which you've listed. We could sit down together, examine the particulars of any Christian denomination, and no doubt find specious doctrines, traditions, and theology.

Christendom is a big tent. Catholicism is inside the tent. Mormonism is not.

Sola scriptura.

Sola gracia.

Sola fide.


--Mike

New BBC Open Forum said...

"It might be more prudent to invest time in dealing with movements like the LDS than with the PDL, wouldn't you agree?"

After reading more about the Mormon church, I do agree with you that it's "non-Christian," and I hereby amend my original comments to reflect that opinion. I had read some about their beliefs before, but apparently what I read was written by a Mormon because it did not include references to all those really weird (mild word for it) things I've read about since.

As for your question above though, while investing time in debunking the Mormon "religion" and witnessing to those who are a part of it are certainly worthy of our efforts and attention, on the other hand, Brigham Young, et al. aren't invading our own churches. PDL... is.

NASS

allofgrace said...

Mike,
You left out: solus Christus and soli deo gloria...are you Catholic?...jk bro..that was...snarky?..lol. Blessings.

Anonymous said...

New BBC Open Forum said...
"It might be more prudent to invest time in dealing with movements like the LDS than with the PDL, wouldn't you agree?"

After reading more about the Mormon church, I do agree with you that it's "non-Christian," and I hereby amend my original comments to reflect that opinion. I had read some about their beliefs before, but apparently what I read was written by a Mormon because it did not include references to all those really weird (mild word for it) things I've read about since.


I am overwhelmingly pleased and blessed to read that.

As for your question above though, while investing time in debunking the Mormon "religion" and witnessing to those who are a part of it are certainly worthy of our efforts and attention, on the other hand, Brigham Young, et al. aren't invading our own churches. PDL... is.

NASS


Why do you consider it to be an invasion?

--Mike

choice_is_yours said...

said above...
The Truth can be found in the Catholic church (if you look hard enough). The Truth cannot be found in the teachings of Mormonism--it is a false religion. Ultimately, we need to witness to both groups.

Note: In a few groups of Mormons (and of Roman Catholics), you will find a true Christian who doesn't realize he's sitting in a cult. Cults do their best to look like us. They use Christian church style fads to make themselves look like us. (I am a staunch fence sitter on the topic of PDL/PDC; I own both, but have read neither).

Sometimes they entice people who relocate to a new town that is higher percent of that cult than of Baptists.

We should take care not to make assumptions by group membership because we never know where God has been moving in one person's heart. It takes one-on-one at some point. You never know when someone has already come across a Christian tract or been witnessed to by a Christian friend.

We have to be careful not to step on a budding flower when we are trying to plant seeds.

I was going to invite someone to a Mormon blog to share the Gospel with them.

I went googling, and I found one where they are talking about how to reach out to Baptists.


mormons


"Understanding Baptists

I recently heard BYU's Robert Millet comment that Mormons don't know nearly enough about other denominations. He is the "Manager of Outreach and Interfaith Relations" for Church Public Affairs, so he speaks with some authority on that point. I'll do my part to remedy the problem, beginning with the Baptists and using the book Baptists in America (CUP, 2005). The Wikipedia entry "Baptists" is also helpful. Baptists take a rather conservative approach to religious doctrine and social issues in general, surprisingly similar to LDS positions (apart from distinctive LDS beliefs like temples and the Book of Mormon). But it takes some effort for Mormons to grasp the different conception Baptists have of religious identity, which I'll try to discuss in terms of membership, congregation, and denomination.
"

Hah haaaa!

I didn't read far enough!

They are talking about Purpose Driven!!!!

They are having same discussion we are!!!


Denominational identity has been weakening in most denominations — the LDS Church is a real anomaly here. As a result, many Baptist-affiliated congregations no longer sport the term "Baptist" in their name. For example, the Saddleback Valley Community Church in Orange County, California, perhaps the most publicly visible megachurch in the United States, is Baptist, but you'd never know it from their flashy homepage. I can't find the term "Baptist" anywhere on the website; even a Google search for "Baptist" on the site comes back empty. Its minister, the dynamic Rick Warren, is hardly the stereotype of a Bible-thumping, narrow-minded fundamentalist. His latest book, The Purpose Driven Life, has sold over four million copies. Interestingly, Warren's page at Purpose-Driven Life.com says that Saddleback Church has "been named the fastest growing Baptist church in history, and the largest church in the Southern Baptist Convention." They're Baptist, they just don't advertise it. I'll bet some of the Saddleback congregants don't even know they're Baptist!

Conclusion
So how does all this help further Millet's Outreach program? How does this help Mormons be better religious conversationalists? Try this: If you strike up a conversation with a Baptist, don't ask what they believe. Instead, ask where they attend church and what they like about it. Ask who their pastor is and what he or she says in Sunday sermons that is interesting. Ask what experiences they had that led them to become Baptist or join their congregation, as opposed to a different denomination or congregation. I'll bet this results in a much friendlier and more enlightening conversation than the standard doctrinal discussion, which is likely to end up focusing on the Mormon beliefs that Baptists obviously disagree with.

MKW said...

FYI -- Hank Hanagraff has had extremely interesting discussions on his program this week about Mormonism. A fellow named Luke Wilson has written a couple of books that they are featuring and he has been on there discussing them and taking calls through an open forum with ... Mormons! Very enlightening. I don't know if it's over yet, but I'm sure copies can be downloaded from their website.

M. Wilmoth

choice_is_yours said...

Like I said above, "I am a staunch fence sitter on the topic of PDL/PDC; I own both, but have read neither."

But I did see a flyer about Muslims in Germantown talking about Purpose Driven.


Muslims in Memphis Invites You to its Fourth Annual Muslims Month in Memphis

Events for this month will open with an evening at the Germantown Performing Arts Center on

Friday March 3rd, 2006
From 6:30 - 10:00 pm

Guest Speakers:
Sheikh Hamza Yusuf Hanson
Sheikh Zaid Shakir

An Insight on
A Purpose-Driven Faith: Islam and Civic Responsibility

Please RSVP (for head-count): Dr. Suhail Obaji
901 482 1744
smobaji@hotmail.com


Click to see announcement. NOTE: I am not responsible for nor do I agree with the views espoused on the other side of this web link.

choice_is_yours said...

Here are some Chruch of Christ friends using Purpose Driven

Click here.


...and here is a church of christ group protesting Purpose Driven...

http://www.concernedmembers.com/

Anonymous said...

Actually, Nass, you are completely responsible for everything Mr. Sundquist says by playing host to his remarks, and facilitating their distribution.

Your disclaimer is as meaningless as the famous "saving Bellevue" disclaimer, "We regret the consequences of their actions."

If you want your disclaimer to mean something, I would encourage you to highlight those things in Mr. Sundquist's epistle with which you disagree. A good starting place would be his declaration that temperament tests are "inspired by demons".

And Mr. Sundquist, since I'm confident you're checking back in here on occasion, I did want to respond to something you wrote. I quote you thusly, and like so: " I also emailed a large number of the Southern Baptist Churches in Tennessee inquiring and sharing with them about Rick Warren's teachings. Not one single pastor replied!!!"

If your e-mails to those churches were anything like what's been passed along here, there's an easy answer to why "not one single pastor" responded: There wasn't anything in your e-mails worth responding to.

--Mike

choice_is_yours said...

no... please...

take this to Mike Bratton's blog at...

http://thebrattonreport.blogspot.com

New BBC Open Forum said...

mike bratton wrote:

"Actually, Nass, you are completely responsible for everything Mr. Sundquist says by playing host to his remarks, and facilitating their distribution."

Well, I'm certainly not responsible for the things you say. Why should I be responsible for anything Mr. Sundquist says? I'm ultimately responsible for letting comments be posted here because I know the password and you don't, but as far as being responsible for the content of said comments -- nope. The responsibility for the content of any comment lies strictly with its author.

And now I'll just be a scrollin' on by....

I'm NBBCOF and I approved this message.

P.S. Ditto what "choice" said.

New BBC Open Forum said...

James Sundquist, Director of Rock Salt Publishing, has asked that I post this for him. I am not necessarily endorsing everything in it nor am I responsible for its contents. Responsibility for the statements and opinions herein are his and his alone.

PURPOSE-DRIVEN TENNESSEE BAPTIST CONVENTION AT BELLEVUE BAPTIST: RICK WARREN COLLABORATORS

&

RESPONSE TO BELLEVUE BAPIST CHURCH DEACON DERRICK CALCOTE'S CHARGES OF SLANDER

November 6, 2006
A Special Report
by James Sundquist
Director
Rock Salt Publishing

Website
Email: rock.salt@verizon.net

On September 24, 2006, Steve Gaines, Pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church told his congregation that he is not Purpose-Driven and created the impression that he has distanced himself from Rick Warren's teachings, having indicated that he never even read his books. Is it true that he has not formed alliances with Rick Warren leaders?

This report is also a public response to one of the deacons at Bellevue Baptist Church, Derrick Calcote, who accused me of slandering Steve Gaines and other leaders at Bellevue Baptist Church. This report is also being sent to the deacons at Bellevue Baptist Church. To date I have received no substantiation of Mr. Calcote's charges, so am biblically mandated to mark him before all of Bellevue Baptist Church and the church at large.

Here are Deacon Derrick's charges against James Sundquist:


From: Derrick Calcote
To: James Sundquist
Subject: Re: Commentary on Bellevue Baptist Church September 24 Meeting and upcoming Truth Seeker Meeting
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 20:21:21 -0500

I'm not referring to Rick Warren. I'm referring to Dr. Gaines, Chuck Taylor, Harry Smith, and Chip Freeman.

You have publicly slandered each of these men without in any way shape or form first seeking to address whatever issues you have against them with them first as is required of you by Matthew 18.

For that I call you to repentance before our Lord and for you to apologize to these men for your actions.

Furthermore for your information, you may or may not be interested to know that our former pastor, Dr. Adrian Rogers took our church through "The Purpose Driven Life." Dr. Rogers also took the staff through "The Purpose Driven Church." Dr. Gaines has not even read either of these books.

Also it was under our former pastor, Dr. Adrian Rogers that we started taking personality tests and spiritual gifts tests. One wonders why you did not and do not choose to attack Dr. Rogers for these things, but see fit to attack our current pastor.

For the record I have neither intimidated you or attacked you in any way.

In love I am calling you to repentance, and therefore a closer walk with Christ.

Sincerely,

Derrick Calcote


-----Original Message ----
From: James Sundquist
To: Derrick Calcote
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 6:55 PM
Subject: Re: Commentary on Bellevue Baptist Church September 24 Meeting and upcoming Truth Seeker Meeting

Dear Derrick,

I fear the Lord and believe in the absolute authority of Scripture that tells us that bearing false witness against a brother is an abomination to the Lord. Therefore, if you are going to accuse me of slandering Rick Warren or anyone else to whom you are referring, you are required to document it and prove it. There is nothing in your response that contains any such evidence. What is contained, however, is the same retaliation and intimidation that I have observed going on at Bellevue Baptist Church by some of its leaders and certainly what Rick Warren's training has produced in a host of churches throughout the world. So your response is not even surprising. When right confronts wrong, and wrong does not repent, wrong always retaliates, exactly what you have done. So if you are so upset about "attacking" a brother in Christ, then why are you attacking me?

The difference between me and the rest of your congregation that you can intimidate or silence, is that I can hear their cries and bring them to the ears of Christian radio stations, networks, and a number of discernment journals throughout the world. And indeed they will be hearing about it.

Finally, I am astonished that you would stumble some of the "least of these my children" at your church by having new members take personality temperament divination tests which were inspired by demons and humanist psychologists, and compound your sin by telling me that I am the one who must repent!

Sincerely in Christ,
James Sundquist
Director
Rock Salt Publishing

FACTS:

In 2004, Steve Gaines was elected president of the 2005 Southern Baptist Pastors' Conference, and was the keynote speaker at the SBC annual meeting in Nashville, Tennessee.
Source: Wikipedia article.

And who were some of the Rick Warren collaborators that were featured speakers? For complete list of speakers see this Florida Baptist Witness article.

Mac Brunson:

And what you should know about this leading Southern Baptist pastor at First Baptist Church in Dallas, TX, at the time of this conference that proves he is a Warren PDC collaborator:

Then they came after a lady who was an elder lady in the faith who had been with the First Baptist Church of Dallas, Texas since 1956 by shouting her down with spiritual euthanasia and aggressive mean-spirited behavior, and the intimidation of seven attorneys, because she opposed them turning their landmark Criswell Center into a Purpose Driven entertainment center. But I did not speak up because I was not a widow.


Confirmed by the testimony of Betty Erwin on Southwest Radio Church archived broadcast from March 1, 2005.

And by 11/07/04, 11/11/04, 11/24/04, 1/6/05 letters by Betty Erwin to Mr. & Mrs. Brunson and another former pastor at Dallas First Baptist Church, and telephone interview March 2005.

Source: James Sundquist, Rick Warren's Global Peace Plan vs. Scriptural Teachings on Peace, Bible Belt Publishing, Southwest Radio, pp. 11-12, 2006.

Jerry Vines:

Endorsed Steven Gaines' book. Pastor of First Baptist Church, Jacksonville, FL at the time of this conference which is a Purpose Driven Church. Jacksonville Baptist is PDC. In fact it is the current pastor there, Mac Brunson, who destroyed that elderly lady at First Baptist Church Dallas when he was there... see Spiritual Euthanasia article: James Sundquist, Rick Warren's Global Peace Plan vs. Scriptural Teachings on Peace, Bible Belt Publishing, Southwest Radio, pp. 11-12, 2006.

Also see speaker list.

See also: This article.

Re Jerry Vines: See this.

Dr. Roy Fish:

Professor at Southwest Baptist Theological Seminary which produced Rick Warren. He is also one of the leaders at the Scarborough Institute with Professor Daniel Morgan at this Seminary, who accused James Sundquist and Paul Proctor of slander against Rick Warren, yet to date has produced no evidence to document it. He was defended by Paige Patterson, the President of this seminary who took no action against this professor but simply attacked me (James Sundquist). Upon request, I will supply the letters exchanged between me and Daniel Morgan and Paige Patterson.

Johnny Hunt:


Another Purpose Driven Pastor who also spoke at the National Pastors Conference in Summer of 2006 where Rick Warren was the keynote speaker.

Lifeway Books:

Ben Garner, Editor in Chief for Lifeway will be a featured speaker at Tennessee Baptist Convention at Bellevue Baptist Church, hosted by Steve Gaines.
Lifeway is the distributor of Steve Gaines' book Morning Manna and of course Rick Warren's Purpose Driven Life book. Lifeway joins Harvest House (who published a book attacking those who criticized Rick Warren's teachings), Zondervan, Thomas Nelson, and Agape Press publishers who all are distributors and/or publishers for Rick Warren's propaganda machine. For a list of New Age/Contemplative authors distributed by Lifeway Books go here.

Now let's see what Lifeway Books has to say about any book that would oppose the teachings of RickWarren:

Jim Shull's letter to Nena Jones that Lifeway will not carry Pastor Bob DeWaay's new book REDEFINING CHRISTIANITY because it challenges the teachings of Rick Warren.

Here is his quote:

From: Jim Shull
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 3:33 PM
Subject: Fw: Contact Form: Books

Dear Nena,

Thank you for your email of September 16, asking why LifeWay Christian Stores do not carry Redefining Christianity by Bob DeWaay. I am pleased to respond.

The main reason we do not carry this book is that it attacks The Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren....

Jim Shull
LifeWay Christian Stores

Proof of all of Rick Warren books sold by Lifeway...(note no books opposing him):

Lifeway Christian Stores

(Also note that Southern Baptist President Promotes Lifeway Books at his church's website.)

Paige Patterson:

President of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary which produced and promotes Rick Warren endorsed Steve Gaines' book, Morning Manna, and attacked me for demanding proof from one of his professors, Daniel Morgan, that he had any evidence that I had slandered Rick Warren. He also attacked me for confronting him and his seminary for promoting Rick Warren teachings.

Junior Hill:

Endorsed Steve Gaines' book. His own church promotes Warren and he speaks at conferences with Rick Warren.

WDJC-FM Radio:


WDJC-FM Radio read daily from Steven Gaines' book Morning Manna. WDJC is owned by Don Crawford, Crawford Broadcasting Network, who told Dr. Noah Hutchings, President of Southwest Radio that if he ever said anything against Rick Warren that his national radio show, Watchman on the Wall, would be removed from KBRT in Southern California. I invite you to call Don Crawford up directly to ask him if Masons are false teachers.

Gary Smalley:

He is one of the leaders in Rick Warren's Global Peace Plan and Purpose-Driven strategy, having hostedhis training at Warren's own church, Saddleback, and has recently twice done conferences at Bellevue Baptist Church both before and during the tenure of Steve Gaines. Remember, as pastor he approves who speaks there!

The President of the Southern Baptist Convention features Rick Warren as a keynote speaker and his own church is Purpose Driven and requires personality temperament Discovery 301 covenants of its members. And Steve Gaines would have us believe that the emperor has clothes of being non-purpose driven or that he has not formed any unholy alliances with those Southern Baptist leaders (and others) who are purpose driven. For complete documentation on the pagan and occultic foundation of Gary Smalley's teachings, see or request James Sundquist's Commentary on Steve Gaines' September 24, 2006 Meeting at Bellevue Baptist Church.

Tennessee Baptist Convention 2006:


Will be hosted by Steve Gaines at Bellevue Baptist Church.

From Rick Warren's Pastors.com website:

Tennessee Valley Community Church: Moving from infrastructure to inspiration by Purpose Driven Staff.

"After attending a Saddleback conference in 1998, he and his wife knew they were called to reach the "de-churched" people of Tennessee, those who felt left out of the "Sunday-go-to-meeting" mold.
"In 2000, they became church planters for the Tennessee Baptist Convention."

Source: Pastors.com article.

Frank S. Page:

Current President of the Southern Baptist Church whose own church (First Baptist Church of Taylors in South Carolina) requires the Discovery 301 Class equivalent; DISC Personality Profile of members which Rick Warren launched which contains personality temperament divination is still being given to new members of Bellevue Baptist Church under Steve Gaines' watch. He also hosts Alcoholics Anonymous at his church.

Here is proof that Frank Page promotes Personality Temperament Divination at his church.

Scroll down to:

Step Three

Discovering Your Place


"PLACE is a process of self-discovery that can help equip you as you seek to find God's purpose and plan for your life and your PLACE of service in the Body of Christ. You will discover your personality based on the DISC model, identify your spiritual gifts, find the most effective environment in which you can serve, identify your passion for ministries and people, and understand how your past experiences have prepared you for ministry. This study will benefit those who are new to ministry at TFBC as well as those who are re-evaluating their place in ministry."

Also see: This page.

DISC is the core of Ken Blanchard's training who is a major Global Partner to Rick Warren.

For my analysis on DISC which greatly overlaps my Chapter 11 on Personality Profiling of SHAPE in Warren's program, see DISC.

Personality Profiling:

See this.

The Four Step Program on Taylors First Baptist Church is identical to Rick Warren's four bases in his Baseball Diamond (Step 3 is the Personality Profile).

According to the New Republic, Frank Page also presented himself as Ashley Smith's Pastor.

Source.

Ashley Smith has become a poster child for Rick Warren's Purpose Driven Life book and Zondervan publishes both Warren's book and Ashley Smith's book. Frank Page then endorsed her with the following quote:

"May I recommend to you Ashley Smith as an extraordinary young lady who will present a powerful message to your people. She is a living example of someone transformed by God. She incorporates in her testimony the truth about how God took an ordinary person who struggles like so many and used her in an extraordinary way to save lives and to accomplish His purpose. Please give careful attention to this young lady's story about a life transformed, used by God, and touching lives across our country. I have known her since she was a child. I have seen her walk through many struggles. I have seen a young lady come out on the other side of struggle, tragedy, and pain to be a person whose number one desire is to bring glory to our Lord Jesus Christ!"

Dr. Frank S. Page, Senior Pastor

Taylors First Baptist Church; Taylors, South Carolina

For those of you who don't know that the hostage taker became a Muslim or still think questioning Ashley Smith or Dr. Frank S. Page's endorsement of her, I invite you read the following most illuminating articles by Paul Proctor:


The Purpose Driven Hostage

Voices

A Story of Two Redemptions?


Baptist and Reflector:

This is the the Tennessee Baptist Convention's journal for Tennessee Southern Baptists and SB churches. It is supposed to be a news journal... and should therefore be balanced in presenting both sides of the story without partiality or spin. Yet it is effectively another mouthpiece for Rick Warren's Purpose-Driven agenda and programs. Historically it has run articles promoting Rick Warren.

But note that there is not one single article in it which challenges or refutes Rick Warren's teachings as unbiblical. And note further that there is not a single article defending, let alone even presenting the opposition's point of view at Bellevue Baptist in its current crisis. Yet its Editor Lonnie Wilkey is a featured speaker at this Tennessee Baptist Convention at Bellevue Baptist Church in November of 2006 and has not responded to my inquiries. It is a legitimate question to ask him what his agenda is!

Henry Blackaby:

Bellevue Baptist Church conducted classes on Henry Blackaby's book.

Blackaby/Warren connection. Here is the proof.

(Search for Blackaby on the site which is a Warren site.)

See also.

And this.

Richard Fisher held a seminar exposing the mysticism of Henry Blackaby at a PFO 2004 workshop.

Rev. G. Richard Fisher

Experiencing God or Experiencing Mysticism?

Charismatics are not alone in undermining the sufficiency of Scripture. Those who hail from a fundamental or conservative background may also find themselves exposed to teaching that causes them to drift from the safe mooring of Scripture. One of the leading exponents of non-Charismatic subjectivism is Southern Baptist Henry Blackaby and his hugely successful Experiencing God publications. This workshop will survey and respond to the mystical and extrabiblical leanings popularized by Blackaby in his best-selling volumes.

Source.

Also see Gary Gilley's report on Blackaby.

And this.

John Ortberg:

He was not a speaker at Bellevue Baptist, but his book is in its library. Even Southern Baptist leader Richard Land exposed and opposed him.

And here is the letter to President Bush signed by John Ortberg.

Add to this that Jim Wallis spoke at John Ortberg's church.

You should also know that John Ortberg, former Willowcreek teaching pastor, a recent speaker at Warren's Global Peace Conference at Saddleback Church and one of his collaborators, has been spearheading a campaign with Jim Wallis, Editor of Sojourner Magazine, and bestselling author of "God's Politics: Why the Right Gets It Wrong," to carve up the Land of Israel to create a Palestinian State. Lighthouse Trails has extensive exposes on both Jim Wallis and John Ortberg.

Larry Simmons, Chairman, Committee on Audits, Associate Pastor, First Baptist Church in Paris, TN is presently conducting Rick Warren's CLASS, is a featured speaker at the Tennessee Baptist Convention.

The following Southern Baptist Churches are currently conducting Rick Warren's teachings and programs in Tennessee and are listed on Rick Warren's website:

Broadmoor Baptist Church, Corryton Baptist Church in Corryton, Crossroads Community Church in Newport. There still remains a host of Southern Baptist churches in Tennessee which directly conduct Rick Warren's teachings and books or are simply running with his philosophy which I have not listed. I also emailed a large number of the Southern Baptist Churches in Tennessee inquiring and sharing with them about Rick Warren's teachings. Not one single pastor replied!!!

CONCLUSION

With all of these associations and mutual promotion of Rick Warren dogma and programs, it remains inconceivable that Steven Gaines would now attempt to distance himself from any affiliation with Rick Warren promoters and leaders or distance himself from any guilt as a collaborator with them. Steven Gaines speaks at Southern Baptist Conventions which promote Rick Warren. He invites them to speak at his own church. He secures their endorsements. Yet still maintains his innocence regarding Rick Warren. So, one can only invoke this Scripture:

"If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." 2 John 1:10-11

Tim said...

After the new posting was made with links in place, I tried to follow the logic of Mr. Sundquist and his arguments don't make sense to me. I am not saying that they are incorrect, just that I can not seem to follow it.

Quite frankly, the church is to be "Christ Centered" and nothing else.

Some of the items that Mr. Sundquist has problems with such as "personality" testing, I can not find information that leads me to believe that any thing is wrong with. Perhaps someone could elaborate and help me to understand this argument, because I am at a loss.

The only thing that I really know on this subject is that Psychology was my favorite subject in both high school and college. It was fascinating to me personally to gain insight into how and why other people thought and acted.

I have also not been able to see how many of the links to other sights that are supposed proof of Purpose Driven Church activity are supported. When I went to these other sights, I could not find anything concerning PDC or Rick Warren. Have I missed something?

Thanks

LibertyInChrist said...

To answer Tim's question about proof that Rick Warren's personality profiling (or any temperament divination for that matter), which Tim was not able to find, here is the chapter on it which describes how it was derived from a spirit guide named Philemon where Carl Jung obtained it:

http://www.abrahamic-faith.com/James/chapter-eleven.pdf

New BBC Open Forum said...

And for a more lighthearted look at the PD movement see The Sacred Sandwich. Be sure to check out the "Gallery of Dubious Photojournalism," the link to which is about halfway down that page. If you don't laugh at something you find there, then I'm afraid there's no hope for you!

NASS

Tim said...

LibertyInChrist,

Thank you, I appreciate the help. To briefly summarize what I saw is this.

Psychologist break down humans into body, soul and personality..opposed to the Bible which defines us as body, soul and spirit. The semantics may seem small but the conclusions drawn are vastly different.

While, I do not believe that these test belong within the church, I still can not reason that they are satanic in nature. It is important from a Christian perspective to remember that what is defined as our personality in these test is defined as our spirit by God.

I would still like to gain more understanding of this, if these test are indeed satanic in nature.

allofgrace said...

Psychology disregards the spiritual nature of man...most of the psychological theorists are humanists/evolutionists...and psychology is just that...theory...not an exact science, which means it's always in flux. I'll agree, whether Freud, Maslow, Jung, Rogers, et al...they all make interesting observations about the human condition..however none have the solution..only Freud even suggests that man is inherently evil...the rest think man is inherently good...he just needs to "actualize", overcome his environmental conditioning...etc etc. That's the stuff these kinds of tests are based on..humanism. Personality?...the Bible tells us.."The heart is deceitful above all else and desperately wicked..who can know it?" No test can pin down someone's personality..besides we can know from scripture that our personalities are marred by sin like every other part of our being is..always in need of sanctification..as for using personality/temperament profiling to pigeonhole people into a particular ministry...hogwash...look at all the OT prophets..each one had his own temperament and personality..but all prophets. Spiritual gifts likewise can't be determined by a test. The Bible says to "practice all the gifts"..and to seek the best gifts. It's in that, that a Christian discovers his spiritual gifting. And calling to a particular ministry...is between God and the Christian. Psychology has no place in that. Interesting field...but fatally flawed...it's based on the wisdom of this world.

Tim said...

Thanks, I appreciate your elaboration.

One of things that I am in full agreement is that these test should not be used to pigeon hole people, whether in church or secular environments. Your example of the prophets was wonderful. It helped me understand what you were talking about.

I have seen this used in both chrurh and secular environments I believe it is wrong. There just isn't a secret code that you can unlock and determine what "job" a person is best suited for. You can look at the "sucess" of those in the secular world. For example compare Donald Trump and Fred Smith, completely different yet both "sucessful".

The point that I stop short at, is in saying that since these were not developed by Christians they are satanic in nature. I believe that they do have there place and do not see them as harmful, provided that you don't try to base your life or anyone else upon them. They provide broad generalaities, but they do help you to understand yourself and others.

It is the same reason that I would continue using a light bulb, whether Thomas Edison were a Christian or not.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Another PD story.

allofgrace said...

nbbcof,
Thanks for that article. Some very interesting observations there. I think the author really nailed it down from an insider's perspective. Everyone should read it.

Finance Guy said...

RickWarren and Global Aids Day