From the original BBC Open Forum:
Post your thoughts and suggestions on how the committee should organize and present information. Questions that you think the committee should address can also be posted.
An ad hoc Communications Committee of 10 deacons and two staff members has been formed to address issues and answer questions from the church family. This committee was recommended by the deacon officers, approved by the Pastor, affirmed by the deacon body, and presented to the church family last Sunday (October 8th) following the evening Worship Service. This committee is currently organizing and in the near future will present information on how it will function.
If you wish to offer an opinion please remember that regardless of your point of view, you can be polite and respectful towards others.
UPDATE: This is a transcript of the 9-24-06 information meeting (with commentary by James Sundquist).
UPDATE 2: Please read the important comment posted 8:25 PM, October 19, 2006 by a Deacon regarding the trip and extra money before you post any comments on this particular issue. Thanks.
posted by BBC Open Forum at 6:48 AM on Oct 19 2006
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1 comment:
notastepfordsheep said...
Here's one. I just posted this to the "Open Comments" section but then noticed you'd just started this thread, so I deleted it and will repost it here.
Go to savingbellevue.com and click on the link about "Questions you may want to ask the ad hoc committee." Then click on the first question about tax-exemption.
Several interesting things:
1. If you click on the link for Dehoney Travel's site, on their home page it lists "Featured Trips," the first of which is a May 24th to June 5th "Paul's Missionary Journey" trip, which has a similar itinerary as the trip the Gaineses are sponsoring. Cost for that trip is $3429 per person.
2. Then click on "Tours" --> "Biblical Greece and Turkey" in the sidebar. The one the Gaineses are sponsoring is from May 21st to June 3rd, just one day longer than the above mentioned trip, but the cost for theirs is $4899. For now I will assume there are valid reasons why this trip costs over $1600 more than the other one.
3. Go back to the savingbellevue page and click on the link for "Same trip Host benefit compensation breakdown email Oct 16th 2006." Note that for every 5 people who sign up, at a cost of $4899, the hosts (Steve and Donna Gaines) get one free "host benefit" which can be taken in the form of one free trip OR cold cash.
4. As of October 16th, there were 49 people signed up. That means that if just one more person signs up the hosts will receive both their trips free PLUS a tidy $39,192 cash profit! I don't particularly have a problem with the hosts getting theirs free, but that profit thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Of course, they could choose to take their "host benefit" in extra free trips, say, for loyal staff members or FOBs (friends of Bellevue).
5. On October 8th, someone added this comment to the Commercial Appeal poll comments section: "Going on the Holy Land Tour with Steve Gaines. West Jackson Baptist suggests you check the mark-up he puts on your ticket." At the time I didn't think there could really be anything to it. Could I have been wrong?
6. The trip isn't until May. Just think how many more people might sign up between now and then.
7. The sb webmaster labeled the htm file for this page "moneychangers." Pretty apt name if you ask me.
001 7:12 AM, October 19, 2006
john 16:33 said...
Not,
I confess I didn't beleive your post until I followed the links you posted. That is alot of money.
1. I think it is a legitimate question as to where the money is going.
2. Was this mark-up information disclosed to the people that signed up?
I assume the hosts get to go for free on stuff like this but I never imagined they might get a $39,000 check. WOW.
3. Would this violate the 501c3 tax free status of BBC? It is a good question and one that should be answered.
Maybe a tax CPA can look at this and let us know what he thinks.
002 7:29 AM, October 19, 2006
notastepfordsheep said...
Whether there's any tax implication or not, I don't know. But here are a couple of ideas for things Dr. Gaines could do which would eliminate the appearance of impropriety in everyone's eyes.
1. Announce that for every 5 people who sign up, they're getting a percentage discount per person and pass the savings along to everyone who signs up. The amount of the discount would be based upon how many people sign up since the cost of the Gaineses' two free trips would be factored in. This might mean the difference between someone being able to afford such a trip or not.
2. Make the same announcement and pledge the "profits" to Lottie Moon, the Cooperative Program, or some other worthy cause.
3. Pay for Mrs. Gaines' trip out of his own pocket (i.e. not using his Bellevue credit card) and apply that amount to #1 or #2 above.
4. For extra credit, pay for his own trip as well (not using his Bellevue credit card) and apply that amount to #1 or #2.
Do I think this is going to happen? Hmmm... probably not.
In all fairness to Steve Gaines, he's not doing anything every other host who sponsors these kinds of trips does. Preachers host these trips all the time. Again, the problem comes in not disclosing the details. I wonder how many of those 47 people would have signed on knowing the Gaineses were getting their trips free AND making a tidy little profit.
003 8:26 AM, October 19, 2006
Josh Tucker said...
There is no mark-up with the tour price. The Dehoney website takes you to the itinerary for the May 24 - June 5 trip first, which can be misleading if you don't follow all of the available links.
If you click on either Current Dates or Tour Itineraries at the bottom of the box, you can then select the link to the itinerary for the May 21 - June 3 trip.
The cost of this trip is listed at $4899.
004 8:39 AM, October 19, 2006
Josh Tucker said...
Also, bear in mind, that the cash is only an option and that Pastor Gaines might have been planning to use the free trips for family members, etc.
005 8:47 AM, October 19, 2006
notastepfordsheep said...
josh tucker wrote: "Also, bear in mind, that the cash is only an option and that Pastor Gaines might have been planning to use the free trips for family members, etc."
And that's somehow more ethical? It's still a nice little perk that I'm sure many people don't know about. Why should everyone else foot the bill for his "family members, etc."?
006 9:07 AM, October 19, 2006
notastepfordsheep said...
josh tucker wrote: "There is no mark-up with the tour price. The Dehoney website takes you to the itinerary for the May 24 - June 5 trip first, which can be misleading if you don't follow all of the available links."
Good point about the Dehoney website featuring the May 24th trip which is $3249. I saw that. As I pointed out, you have to go to the sidebar and click on the link there to get to the May 21st trip, i.e. the Gaineses' trip. It indeed shows the cost for that one as $4899. I wasn't saying there's a "mark-up" there, although that trip is over $1600 more than the May 24th trip which is only one day shorter and has a similar itinerary. But as I said, "For now I will assume there are valid reasons why this trip costs over $1600 more than the other one." There could be any number of legitimate reasons why that trip costs more -- airfare, hotel accommodations, side trips, meals, etc.
The mark-up results from the hosts receiving one free trip (or $4899 in cash) for every five paid trips. And that is, effectively, a mark-up for the people who pay $4899 who are, at best, subsidizing the cost of the trip for those who are going for free and, at worst, lining the pockets of our pastor who is promoting this trip from the pulpit.
Questions to ask:
1. Do the people who've signed up know this? If they do and don't care, I don't either. It's their money.
2. Could this affect the status of Bellevue's 501(C)(3)?
3. What does this say about the character of our pastor?
I could think of a few more questions, but really these are the only ones which come to mind that are worthy of knowing the answers to.
007 9:50 AM, October 19, 2006
MOM4 said...
The deacon officers that recommended this committee are part of the problem within the leadership. Their position is that there is no problem. Unfortunately, those of us who are not in attendance for multiple reasons that I described in a previous post, are not able to vote on such a committee's formation, however, we would have been there had we known about it - was it announced in advance? I am anxious to see where they are going with this..we need to prya that those involved will realize that they need to be open and objective.
008 10:52 AM, October 19, 2006
john 16:33 said...
Hi Josh,
I am confused.
When you say there is no markup does that mean there is no $37,000 available to the hosts to receive as a check or travel voucher? Or are you saying that there is no markup above and beyond the $37,000?
After thinking a bit on this maybe if this was disclosed there is nothing wrong with it. People could just choose not go on the trip if it bothered them that the Pastor was making extra money as a host. Furthermore, for all I know the Pastor may be giving all the cash to missions.
I really want to think the best and already feel more than a little ashamed for even wondering about this. I feel pretty down.
009 11:31 AM, October 19, 2006
MOM4 said...
John 16:33
It is a shame that any of us are questioning the goings on at our church. It is a shame that we had to to SEEK answers. Some of these things have been going on for a long time, and some are new to this leadership. I think the difference is that we never questioned Dr Rogers because we knew he was of the utmost integrity, we have not seen that in our new pastor. I was one who voted for him to come and be our pastor, but I did not think before I voted. Of course we had no alternatives and I assumed the search committee was leading us in the right direction. And I honestly believe that Steve Gaines had a divine appointment to be here or Dr Rogers would not have allowed him to be brought before us, but I also believe that Dr Rogers was attempting to teach him the need to shepherd his flock and to teach him humility by the washing of the feet and the passing of the mantle. Unfortunately, Steve Gaines did not get the message and proceeded to dismantle our church in a ruthless and insensitive way. He has shown so little respect for us that it is hard for me to see his face on TV without turning away, let alone sit thru a service. If he would come clean and be reconciled to the church as a whole, remove Jamie Parker (who I like personally) and remove Mark Dougharty (who should have left on his own by now) and allow new deacon elections, I believe we can move on and the Lord will heal our hearts.
010 11:50 AM, October 19, 2006
allofgrace said...
Sounds like a committee formed to put "spin" on everything and deflect anything from sticking to the staff...just like the politico's.
011 12:04 PM, October 19, 2006
Josh Tucker said...
John 16:33,
I think there might have been some confusion related to how I was using the word markup. Typically speaking, a markup refers to someon purchasing something and then turning around and selling it to someone else at a higher price; a markup of the price.
The host benefits are a standard host perk with Dehoney tours. Most tour companies offer these types of deals to encourage people to book tours through them instead of through independent travel agents, and they don't mind helping out the hosts because most of the people are signing up for a trip to be with the host. The cash option is only an option, and is in lieu of individuals taking the free trips. None of us know how any money, if even received, would be used, and quite frankly, it's not really our business either.
Nevertheless, I personally don't have an issue with the trip set up. Although, I think I've missed my calling. Getting paid to travel would be quite nice.
012 1:31 PM, October 19, 2006
westtnbarrister said...
From the first post above:
"5. On October 8th, someone added this comment to the Commercial Appeal poll comments section: "Going on the Holy Land Tour with Steve Gaines. West Jackson Baptist suggests you check the mark-up he puts on your ticket."
I would like to set the record straight about West Jackson.
A West Jackson pastor was indeed accused of making a profit on Holy Land trips, but it WAS NOT Dr. Gaines. It was Dr. Jerry Tidwell, who followed Dr. Gaines as pastor (It wasn’t true of Dr. Tidwell, but he was the one accused of it). While Pastor Gaines was at West Jackson he was still working on his doctorate. He had no time for money-making trips to the Holy Lands. This did not happen.
Also, somewhere I read the allegation that West Jackson wanted him gone so he left and went to Gardendale. I have also read that West Jackson fired him. There is no truth to either of these allegations. Dr. Gaines left of his own accord after receiving a call from Gardendale.
When Dr. Gaines went to West Jackson he was the first conservative pastor in a generation. After decades of liberalism, changes he made were necessary, but as one might expect, they angered people. This is exactly what he was referring to in the quote that is plastered across the top of the Saving Bellevue site right now. That quote was appropriate for the context. West Jackson needed to be broken down and rebuilt. To assume that statement applies to Bellevue is a logical fallacy. It ought to be removed from the site because it only confuses the issues at hand.
Notastepfordsheep was merely raising the West Jackson question in response to another post. I don't blame her for wondering. Under the circumstances I would wonder too. Whoever made these original allegations did us all a disservice. We need to analyze the situation at Bellevue fairly based on the Bible and what actually happened at Bellevue. Assertions about Dr. Gaines behavior 15-20 years ago are not helpful, particularly when they are most assuredly wrong.
About the facts at hand, I would like to know if Dr. Gaines truly stands to personally earn tens of thousands from church trips. If so, I find it unseemly. Even if he planned to give the money away I find it unseemly. He shouldn't be able to make gifts on the backs of church members without their knowledge. However, all of this is hypothetical because we don’t know if this is even true. I will point out that these are the kinds of questions that will keep coming up until the church operates with sufficient transparency.
013 2:00 PM, October 19, 2006
john 16:33 said...
Mom:
Thank you for your thoughtful comments.
Josh Turner:
Thank you for your clarification.
WestTN:
Thank you for putting those rumors to rest.
014 2:14 PM, October 19, 2006
notastepfordsheep said...
Thanks, westtnbarrister. You read my remarks correctly. I was merely quoting someone else and even stated that at the time I read that I didn't think there could be anything to the allegations. It was the e-mail from Dehoney Travel that made me remember that comment and begin to wonder if there was some validity to it. I'm glad to learn there wasn't.
One minor correction to my original and subsequent comments. The price of the May 24th trip was $3429 per person which I mistakenly said was $3249 later. (It wasn't a typo. I was going by memory, and memory failed me.) In both cases I said this was a difference of over $1600 when it's really $1470. It makes no difference in the grand scheme of things, but I am a lot better at math than that!
While an anonymous comment (or even a non-anonymous one) can be wrong, at this time I have no reason to question the correspondence coming from Dehoney Travel. As someone said, "They don't have a dog in this fight." Nor would they have any reason to state this is their policy if it weren't the case.
015 2:18 PM, October 19, 2006
MOM4 said...
WTN, Please let me know how you know these things. I had heard that after taking control of W Jackson, that he ruled with an iron fist and ran off any who opposed him, even after he completed the changed direction of the church. I also was told by a member there that they were glad that he got the call to Gardendale. Also, I have family in Jackson and I hear a lot from them, especially since all of this mess has been going on. The story about the trip monies were not mentioned, but all the other was and they are the 2nd group that have told me the same story. Are they not telling me accurately?
016 2:23 PM, October 19, 2006
Josh Tucker said...
Mom4, the West Jackson information from Barrister is accurate. I have a family member who was the chairman of the deacons before and during Steve Gaines tenure there.
017 3:47 PM, October 19, 2006
ilovebbc said...
Instead of doing all this speculating, why don't we all just submit our questions to the Deacon Committee about the upcoming cruise and everything else that Bro Steve has ever said, thought or done and wait and get their answers and then see what remains to be resolved after they complete their work. There are unsaved people reading the posts on this forum, Mike Bratton's and savingbellevue.com that are really enjoying mocking us and seeing how the body of Christ at Bellevue is behaving. Instead of asking one another questions and doing all this speculating in a very public forum,let's give our deacons an opportunity to do their work. I wish Mr. Haywood would try that route in the future before putting up any more unconfirmed reports on his web site.
018 4:04 PM, October 19, 2006
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019 5:27 PM, October 19, 2006
john 16:33 said...
Thanks WTenn!!!!
I feel alot better.
Pastor Gaines forced him to resign due to the divorce and the alcohol incident. Most at Bellevue would consider either a suitable justification to remove a youth minister.
Amen.
Another incident concerned a female staff member who openly acknowledged involvement in a homosexual relationship. When Pastor Gaines found out about it he promptly fired her...
Yikes and Amen
020 5:36 PM, October 19, 2006
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021 7:56 PM, October 19, 2006
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022 8:12 PM, October 19, 2006
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023 8:19 PM, October 19, 2006
BBC Open Forum said...
WestTN
Thanks you for your report and Josh for your confirmation. It sounds like Pastor Gaines comments to the effect "And, I’m telling you that from the first day that I walked in the door, it was a time of plucking up, breaking down, destroying and overthrowing,..." were appropriate to the situation at West Jackson. It seems that the posting at the savingbellevue.com site lacks context and therefore is inappropriate.
Thank you very much Derrick Calcote for the information you provided with respect to the trip. For your protection I am going to delete your original post and repost without your cell and phone number. If someone needs you they can easily obtain this information from the church office. I fear that leaving it here is not a good idea. I worry about non BBC people harassing you.
024 8:21 PM, October 19, 2006
Derrick Calcote said...
FWIW, I spoke with Dr. Gaines this morning and asked him about this. He assured me that he will in no way be pocketing any money from this trip.
Yes, he will use a few of the "comped" tickets for he and his wife and perhaps even a family member or two that wish to join them. It is my understanding that this is no different than other pastors do and have done in the past, including our beloved former pastor, Dr. Rogers.
Any remaining "comped" tickets he will give away (not sell.) This will no doubt be a blessing to some people who would not otherwise be able to take a trip like this.
Again, despite what you are being led to believe, Pastor Gaines is not profiting from this trip.
While I have mixed feelings about posting on a site like this I am always available to answer questions.
As a deacon I am a servant of the Lord and His church. By all means feel free to contact me via e-mail at dcalcote@msn.com.
In His service and yours,
Derrick Calcote
(Reposted to take the advice of the forum host in removing my cell number. Anyone wishing to contact me by phone may get my number from the church office.)
025 8:25 PM, October 19, 2006
BBC Open Forum said...
Thanks Derrick - you beat me to it!
026 8:27 PM, October 19, 2006
Derrick Calcote said...
BBC OF,
Thanks for the advice. I will say though that although my cell phone was posted on Mr. Haywood's site (in my response to the Gremilons) at least so far I've not been harassed.
To the contrary, I've received calls from three members who had read various things and got concerned. Praise God I've had the opportunity to meet with two of them already and both have been greatly reassured.
Please pray for me as I strive to be a minister of reconciliation.
In His service and yours,
Derrick Calcote
027 8:35 PM, October 19, 2006
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028 8:40 PM, October 19, 2006
Derrick Calcote said...
Bunkerhill,
"It seems...."
"I will bet...."
With all due respect you are doing nothing more that engaging in speculation and slander.
For the record Pastor Gaines was not in "damage control" mode. When I asked him about it, it was the first time he had heard of the issue being raised.
And also for the record, there was another gentelman there (whose name I do not recall) who served with Pastor Gaines at Gardendale. This gentleman shared with me a heart warming story of one of the individuals who dearly wanted to go but didn't have the money and was blessed by receiving one of these comped tickets.
In His service and yours,
Derrick Calcote
029 9:06 PM, October 19, 2006
bunkerhill said...
Why not bless everyones heart and tell them on the FRONT end BEFORE signup that they are all paying around 1000 dollars more for their ticket so 10 or more poor people can go?
030 9:41 PM, October 19, 2006
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031 9:47 PM, October 19, 2006
Donna said...
Derrick,
Thanks so much for your candor and willingness to give us an inside view. And with all due respect to your opinion, I find it very hard to believe that Steve Gaines knew nothing of these alligations before your conversation this morning. I personally have known about them for approximately a week now. I would hope that Steve Gaines is not that out of touch. With the former dishonesty, I am currently finding it hard not to read between the lines as it regards to his statements.
032 9:50 PM, October 19, 2006
Josh Tucker said...
Bunker, the host benefit is a standard comp offered by Dehoney Travels to all hosts, and is given only when individuals pay full price. Since Pastor Gaines will not accept any form of cash payment, what you are asking cannot happen.
By the way, what specifically is your issue with the trip what do you find to be a problem?
033 9:54 PM, October 19, 2006
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034 9:54 PM, October 19, 2006
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035 10:12 PM, October 19, 2006
notastepfordsheep said...
Derrick,
First of all, thank you for your openness and your willingness to make yourself available. I appreciate your positive attitude and only wish some of your fellow deacons had been so gracious. I don't know "bunkerhill," and as I cannot speak for this person, I can't apologize for him/her, but I assure you that kind of attitude is not what the "blog owner" or the vast majority of the people who have posted comments here have displayed. Please don't judge the rest of us by one person's harsh words.
I want to address several things you said.
1. "Yes, he will use a few of the 'comped' tickets for he and his wife and perhaps even a family member or two that wish to join them. It is my understanding that this is no different than other pastors do and have done in the past, including our beloved former pastor, Dr. Rogers."
As I said in a previous comment, Dr. Gaines isn't doing anything a lot of other preachers don't do, but just because "everyone else does it" doesn't make it right. And saying "that's how things were done when Dr. Rogers was here" is getting a bit old. Dr. Gaines should be accountable for his own actions.
So far there are 49 people signed up. That adds up to 9 free trips worth a little over $44,000. With the trip not scheduled until May, how many more people will sign up, and how many more "comped" tickets will he be entitled to?
I said I don't have a big problem with the host and his wife going for free. It would be a nice gesture to pay for at least her trip themselves, but again, it's not that big a deal. He's obviously doing some work in getting all this together, and even a net 50% discount on the cost for him and her would be nice compensation.
I don't think it looks good for any other family members, be they children, parents, or otherwise, to go for free while everyone else pays full price unless of course everyone else going is in agreement to this arrangement. It's their money, and if they don't care, I certainly don't. But the question is, are they all aware that 20% of each of every five persons' fares is going to pay for someone else to go free?
2. "Any remaining "comped" tickets he will give away (not sell.) This will no doubt be a blessing to some people who would not otherwise be able to take a trip like this."
Assuming those 7 (so far) remaining tickets were to go to individuals who really and truly couldn't afford such a trip, I could possibly see some merit in that. And again, this is if it's okay with all the paying members of the tour. However, do you really believe they're going to be given to people like that? It pains me greatly to even think this, and I probably shouldn't say it, but I can't help but think that they're much more likely to go to other family or staff members or FOBs (friends of Bellevue), not to those who might truly be deserving of such a "blessing."
3. "Again, despite what you are being led to believe, Pastor Gaines is not profiting from this trip."
With all due respect, (1) I don't think I'm being "led" to believe anything (until now perhaps), and (2) he is. Whether he takes his "host benefits" in the form of "comped" tickets or cash, he's still profiting. Any family member who goes for free is saving him $4899. And call it what you will, that's a profit.
Wouldn't it be a wonderful example for everyone for Dr. Gaines to take a stand and say that he's not going to do something that "a lot of other preachers do" because he doesn't want to give people reason to question his motives? For what it's worth (and that's precious little, I realize), I made some suggestions in my 8:26 a.m. comment that I won't repeat here. Just scroll up.
This all reminds me of the credit card thing when Dr. Gaines pulled his card out and said, "Look, here it is. I've had a church credit card since I was 30." Okay. Does that make everything all right? Why does any preacher or staff member need a church credit card?
I digress, but again it comes back to the old "everyone else does it" thing.
036 10:15 PM, October 19, 2006
notastepfordsheep said...
bunkerhill,
Part of me hopes what you're saying is true (for your sake), and a much bigger part of me hopes the things you've said aren't true (for the sake of the rest of us and Bellevue). Those are some serious accusations, and I pray you're not just trying to "stir the pot."
Were you at Gardendale? I'm curious as to how such a conversation would take place and why he would make such an admission and in such a contentious way.
037 10:22 PM, October 19, 2006
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038 10:22 PM, October 19, 2006
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039 10:43 PM, October 19, 2006
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040 3:41 AM, October 20, 2006
john 16:33 said...
The "trip ticket price" is an issue that can be easily addressed at a business meeting. A motion can be made that when any Pastor of BBC serves as a “host” on a trip that trip participants will be fully informed in writing what the ratio of free tickets to purchased tickets (5:1, 10:1, 20:1 etc) will be. Participants should be fully informed as to how much extra per ticket the paying customers will be charged in order to secure these free tickets. The disclosure should also cover who controls the free tickets and whether there are any restrictions on how the host awards the tickets, or whether the host can receive a cash payout for unused tickets. It should be clear whether as additional participants sign up will there be a “volume discount” as more members sign up, or will the host receive the full benefit in the form of free tickets or cash compensation as they choose?
I think it would be a divisive and poor policy to allow cash compensation to a host at their discretion, but it the congregation voted that way so be it.
Any motion at a meeting can be fully debated and we can hope the final motion will be appropriate.
When full disclosure takes place many issues melt away, but if people perceive they have been overcharged without their knowledge feelings can be hurt.
If people are informed that they will be paying extra and that the extra will go into the "free ticket pot" and that the free tickets are to be awarded as the host sees fit the arrangement quickly becomes a non issue.
Full disclosure and accountability are wonderful things. They take effort and humility but in the long run will serve us all.
041 6:28 AM, October 20, 2006
MOM4 said...
WTN,
Thank you for your clarification on the topics regarding W Jackson. I am sorry I took so long to respond to your post, but I went back to my family and friends in Jackson last night to clarify some items. The 2 incidents you mentioned were justified and the majority of the congregation most assuredly agreed as do I- the way Steve Gaines handled the situation is typical of his style, but these were only 2 incidents of many that your family may not be aware of. From what I am told, Steve Gaines will belittle, degrade and bully
ANY one who may question anything he does unless he sees them as someone he can use to promote his agenda - and he does the worst of it in secret - which is what we are seeing now. I think he is a great preacher, but he does not always have his fellow believers at heart. I was told that he will say what it takes to pacify those who are of his opinion and cut off anyone else. I am also in shock that Bellevue members are being talked to and treated by the way most of the deacons and BFC leaders are responding. There are a few who have made a small stand, but most are mum and scowl or refuse to discuss the situation with us. There is so much more to this story than we will ever know on this earth.
On another note, I am not trying to stir up devisiveness, but I am afraid of the man. Last year I had the opportunity to be at a party where Steve and Donna were in attendance. As I approached the man - he had no clue who I was - I became aware of a deep anger within him - and I turned on my heel and walked away - it rattled me so that I was afraid that there was something wrong with me in my spirit and I had to go to the Lord to search my heart in case there was some unconfessed sin that I needed to repent of - but there was nothing in my life that would have provoked such a strong "rage" from him.
Now I am not totally clueless, but one of the 2 gifts the Lord has given me are intercession and the ability to sense spiritual oppressiveness - which some may say is weird, but when you get that strong check in your spirit- that is a huge red flag that something is wrong. It was the same check that I got when I was up against a Jehovah's Witness "teacher". He recognized that I "knew" where he was coming from and proceeded to drag his "student" away from me as fast as he could - he didn't even say anything - just drug the poor "student" down the sidewalk by the arm.
Something is wrong at Bellevue and it scares me for my church and my fellow believers that are being abused and offended in the name of Christ. Only the Lord knows the heart and the intent of the heart, I am praying that HE will show us the true heart of Steve Gaines so that we may move forward with the Lord's work in this magnificant church body. There are a lot that may need to repent for their actions, I am ill over some that have been told to leave and some that have left with no one going after them - Where in scripture does it say to "leave if you don't like it" instead we are told of the parable of the lost sheep - some have a lot to answer for. The BFC leadership and the deacons should attempt to go after ALL members who have left and make attempts to reconcile with them - openly and objectively - whether they return to the church or not. What will it take to correct this situation? Prayer Prayer Prayer!
I believe that there needs to be a "purpose driven prayer meeting"- no pun intended-but I guess it was:) We need to bond together somewhere and lift this situation up in prayer with clean hearts and hands. We need the truth to be revealed and cleansing from the Holy Hand of God and that will only come thru prayer and fasting.
Other Options??
042 7:11 AM, October 20, 2006
westtnbarrister said...
Hey Mom4,
I am not an apologist for Dr. Gaines and our senior leaders. You echo many of my own sentiments. I have expressed them clearly to our deacons (and more than a handful agree; so despite claims to the contrary they are not unanimous).
In my post yesterday I tried to correct false allegations I had read on various websites concerning his time at West Jackson, namely that he profited from church trips and that he was fired or on the verge of being fired. I don't think it is right for such untruths to go unchecked because some might stand on them as a basis for their view of what is happening at Bellevue. If they had been true they would be valid points to consider.
His leadership style (the term heavy-handed is often used) did indeed anger a lot of people. I may have given the false impression that I defended everything he did and how he did it. That is far from the case. I must admit that my recent conversations have been with people in leadership at West Jackson who might tend to have a different viewpoint than the average church member.
043 7:52 AM, October 20, 2006
MOM4 said...
"The BFC leadership and the deacons should attempt to go after ALL members who have left and make attempts to reconcile with them - openly and objectively"
This quote from my previous post does not mean that someone should harass, intimidate or climb over fences in an attempt to "reconcile". It means that they should "offer" reconciliation according to the scriptural example in I John 4:11.
044 8:03 AM, October 20, 2006
MOM4 said...
WTN,
Thank you for your response. And I agree with what you have said. I just wanted to put out there that there were other sides to the story. I did not mean to offend you in my post and I certainly think you are correct in sharing the information you have from the members there. If we do not hear all of the truth, misunderstandings and half truths are deemed as acceptable. I appreciate you and your efforts!
045 8:08 AM, October 20, 2006
westtnbarrister said...
Hey Mom4,
I have real thick skin and am I not touchy, so don't worry about offending me. I won't take offense at anyone who disagrees with my opinions. I don't have all the answers and I know that.
I don't think we know the whole truth about all of these issues, so I am reserving judgment. It is my desire to be fair and even-handed to Dr. Gaines, but also to Mark Sharpe et al. I want to be a moderating voice, not a voice of dissension. I hope we can cool down the tenor of the rhetoric and discuss these things with a gentle and open spirit.
I am not one to blindly follow any man, even a pastor. So I disagree with some who think we should just drop it and move on. I seek peace, but not at the expense of truth.
I wish you would send an email to: westtnbarrister@yahoo.com
I have a question for you.
Thanks!
046 8:32 AM, October 20, 2006
MOM4 said...
I will be in touch later this afternoon when we can "talk" at length. Thanks!
047 8:56 AM, October 20, 2006
notastepfordsheep said...
I would like to encourage everyone to check out the latest on the savingbellevue.com site, namely the "Gaines Brings Shame on Bellevue Again" link and listen to the audio from the 9/25 revival service in Union City. I've posted a transcript of a particularly troubling portion of that sermon (if that's what it was) in the "Did I tick you guys off?" thread on this forum.
Now, NASS is going to go try to chill out for a while. Hopefully, when I return (if I'm not shredded to bits by wild bears in the meantime) the blogger.com engineers will have gotten this site fixed. It's been clunky, cantankerous, vexatious, plaguy, and nettlesome all day, not to mention laggard and dilatory.
048 11:28 AM, October 20, 2006
Lwood said...
GEEEE
After listening to the audio at Union City about the information meeting I must say Dr. Gaines and myself must have been at different meetings....Sitting in the Balcony,I did not see the responce that he saw....Yes a large group stood and aplauded but there was also a large group that did not...About the 100% of the deacons behind him and the church??I have a real problem with that statement.....Yes I did agree with him tho I felt like I was at a ballgame instead of a church service.....Why did he feel he had to (as they have accused the truth seekers of) Air the church's dirty laundry in a church in Union City Tn. I am again soooo disappointed..
049 11:48 AM, October 20, 2006
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050 12:00 PM, October 20, 2006
cjesusnme said...
I have heard the original recording of Steve speaking in Union City and it is a little speed up on the copy from Union City. I don't think it was done for any reason, just poor recording. I know that is how it sounded and is not reflective upon the webmaster of SB.com.
051 12:19 PM, October 20, 2006
ScaredOfTheTruth? said...
You can tell a lot about a person who consistently uses superlatives in their speech--one characteristics is they are often prone to exaggeration. At some point, I'll go back and count the number of times Gaines said the word "all" in relation to the deacons, choir, congregation, etc., but how incredible that he would stand there and claim that "all" of any group was for or against him. How could he possibly know?
It was also interesting to note his comment (which drew the laughter I'm sure he was looking for) about how "we did all the talking" in the informational meeting. Wow! How brave to stand up and parade a group of people in front the church that all echo the same story and then brag about how you never let anyone outside that group speak.
To me this all points to an even bigger underlying issue--one of conformity to the majority and the tendency to crush dissension. For those of you who remember your college psychology courses, Dr. Solomon Asch did a study where a control group of students gave intentionally incorrect answers to a very simple question that was asked of them--one any person would know the answer to. Meanwhile, the one student who did not know what was happening was asked the same question all the control students were asked. Not wanting to appear stupid to the others, the subject answered the same as the group in the vast, vast majority of experiments. Now, compare that to the current situation. Chairman of Deacons gets up on stage and says nothing wrong happened. Chief finance officer gets up on stage and says nothing wrong happened. Church administrator gets up on stage and says nothing wrong happened. Then--surprise--pastor gets up on stage and not only says nothing happens, but also laces his informational message with sarcasm, makes light of illegal acts (trespassing) and generally invites everyone to believe that out of thousands of Bellevue members and an entire body of deacons, that only 3 or 4 dissenters have any issues with anything that has happened. Oh, and by the way, he doesn't give anyone a chance for anyone to give a different answer, anyway. It would take a very strong individual or group of individuals to stand up to that kind of pressure.
Now, through this forum, we see with absolute certainty that there is not 100% backing of the deacon body, in spite of Gaines comments to the contrary. Does anyone else see a problem with this?
052 1:33 PM, October 20, 2006
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053 2:06 PM, October 20, 2006
MOM4 said...
Dear Friend,
Those who are trying to find answers at our church home play ball by the rules. It is obvious that our pastor has his own set of rules. It will take organization that is not forthcoming at this time by the men who we are praying will take control of this situation and demand that Steve Gaines steps aside and let the truth be known. I believe he is not willing for the truth to be know because he is afraid of it. Everyone must be waiting on someone else to do something is all I can figure out and that is a sad commentary. Continue to pray for us as we are suffering greatly.
054 2:20 PM, October 20, 2006
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055 2:52 PM, October 20, 2006
Truth Hunter said...
Does anyone have a complete listing of those appointed to the Ad Hoc Communications Committee?
056 2:53 PM, October 20, 2006
cjesusnme said...
Truth Hunter,
A list my husband penned while they were calling them out at church:
AdHoc Committee members:
Steve Tucker
Harry Smith-chairman
Scott Foster
Mark Stiller
David Purdue
Wayne VanderSteeg
Jeff Arnold
John Crockett
Brian Miller
David Coombs
057 3:00 PM, October 20, 2006
cjesusnme said...
Scared of the truth:
AMEN!!! Well said and I am finding so many more daily, who agree. I think the latest on SB.com will only shed light to those who were "sitting on the fence". Steve Gaines can't continue to deface the reputation that so many have sacrificed at Bellevue. God show us the way and have mercy on us!
058 3:23 PM, October 20, 2006
Truth Hunter said...
Here is a link to a new article about Bellevue called “Bellevue Conflict Bleeds onto Internet, into Public Square”
Article
From the article:
“In his [Dr. Gaines] address to the church, he said he wanted the church to pray that ‘God will not let us get distracted from the main thing…We’re more focused on what really matters, and what really matters is not all of these little accusations, fault-findings and all that stuff,’ Gaines said. ‘What really matters is there are people going to hell right out there, and it’s our job to love each other and to win people to Jesus.’”
Isn’t that a defense intended to automatically shut down any questioning or accountability? Any time a church member has a concern about what is going on in a church, a pastor can say what Dr. Gaines said above. Then the questioning church member, who doesn’t want to cause anyone to go to hell, is expected to drop his question and move on. If the church member does not stop the questioning he is chided for distracting everyone from the main thing and causing people to go straight to hell. In order to undermine him he’s labeled a trouble-maker. Carried to its logical conclusion this reasoning would almost give a pastor blanket immunity from questions or accountability.
In the New Testament I see plenty about the required character of a pastor. The idea of the pastor having authority is also biblical. What I don’t see are a lot of references that instruct me, as a layman, to “swallow and follow” or never ask a question. Dr. Gaines compared himself to Nehemiah in the deacon meeting. He preached about all the enemies that come against the man of God. Someone else has compared him to the prophet Elisha. We are being reminded how dangerous it is and how sick we are to question a man of God. But Steve Gaines is a man from Dyersburg, not Nazareth. His name does not appear in my Bible anywhere. I’m not trying to demean him or deny his call from God. A call from God, however, does not mean he is above accountability. Nor does it mean he is not sinful.
Can someone please show me where the Bible instructs Christians to blindly follow our leaders, even if we have reason to believe there are problems with integrity and character?
Are our concerns valid and real? At this point, who knows? What I believe is if there is no truth to the allegations concerning Dr. Gaines, then we should be able to shine the light of truth on matters and quickly get back to the main thing. It might be uncomfortable for him, but he should have nothing to fear. Barring this, how will he ever regain the trust of his congregation?
059 7:28 PM, October 20, 2006
straining gnats said...
Truth Hunter,
"Can someone please show me where the Bible instructs Christians to blindly follow our leaders, even if we have reason to believe there are problems with integrity and character? "
It has nothing to do with following blindly; everything to do with following Biblically.
In no way do I wish to compare Steve Gaines to King Saul. I love my pastor and support him fully. However, some of you are asking, "What do I do when I feel that my spiritual authority is out of line?" I pray that you are asking out of a genuine desire to know the answer, and not just making excuses for not submitting to his authority.
I give you the example of King Saul. God, in answer to the request of his people, gave Israel a king in Saul. 1 Samuel 15 and 16 records the fact that God rejected Saul because of his sin... yet still allowed him to remain in office as king of Israel. It wasn't until a dozen or so years later that David assumed the throne, after Saul removed himself from kingship by suicide.
Read 1 Samuel chapters 18-23 and note the number of times that Saul tried to kill his successor David. When and how did David ever retalliate against Saul?
Istead of retalliation, read what David did as recorded in 1 Samuel 24
A few thoughts...
1. God appoints authority. Rom. 13:1-4
2. God appointed Steve Gaines to be pastor of Bellevue, period. You might say, "the pulpit committee brought him here, not God." Could God have stopped them? Hello?
3. Rejection of Steve Gaines (if needed) will be done by God, not men. Failure to submit to his authority as leader of God's flock results in rebellion against God.
4. God can do a much better job of approving or removing than I can.
5. David had the opportunity to kill Saul-he had everything to gain! Yet read 1 Samuel 24 again.
Regardless of reason or right, Jim Haywood, Mark Sharpe, et al, are NOT ACTING BIBLICALLY!
6. A vote against God-ordained leadership is a vote against God Himself. At that point, we supplant His authority, claiming that we know better than He does. And we invite His judgement against us.
For what it's worth.
060 8:35 PM, October 20, 2006
straining gnats said...
"Can someone please show me where the Bible instructs Christians to blindly follow our leaders, even if we have reason to believe there are problems with integrity and character? "
On second thought...
Can someone please show me where the Bible instructs Christians to question and seek to supplant God-ordained leadership?
If I am wrong, I would appreciate it if someone would show me Biblically so that I may repent.
Thanks.
061 8:45 PM, October 20, 2006
bunkerhill said...
Im going to break my last blog rule for this one. Straining Gnats here is your ans. 1 Tim 5 19 thru 20.
062 9:14 PM, October 20, 2006
Truth Hunter said...
Straining Gnats,
I will prayerfully consider your points. I genuinely want to know the Biblical answers in this situation.
I admit I have trouble submitting to his authority. I've had that trouble since shortly after he became our pastor. When those billboards went up on I-40, all I could see was ego. I never said a word about that, not even to my wife. I have not complained about the worship changes, although I am not fond of some of them, particularly his paint by number sermons. I wish I didn't, but I see him as arrogant. He does not have the meekness of spirit I believe a pastor should have.
Again, I will consider what you said. Without giving this much thought a few things comes to mind.
First, would you say that even if we know a pastor (a hypothetical pastor, not Dr. Gaines) has lied and set himself up to profit financially from the church, we should still follow him? Do we submit to his authority until he dies or leaves? If so, that would mean some are obligated to spend the rest of their lives under the authority of an ungodly man.
Can you provide New Testament passages concerning the church that are relevant in this regard? I don't discount the Old Testament, but the model for the Christian church is set out in the New Testament.
According to your reasoning a we submit, but a pastor can do anything he wants with impunity. Of course he must answer to God, as we all do.
I don't want to be argumenative, I just need to understand. I bet I am not the only one struggling in this regard.
Thank you.
063 9:30 PM, October 20, 2006
straining gnats said...
Bunkerhill,
Here are a few words that stand out...
"witnesses"
"sin"
According to that passage, the pastor should be confronted in cases of legitimate, known sin. Not issues of preference (worship style, etc.) or allegations of possible supposed wrongdoing (dinners with guests, Holy Land tour dollars/tickets), and not second or third hand information.
Remember also that Paul uses the word "all" in the context of a church, not the entirety of the pagan world. Reference also 1 Corinthians 6:1-8. In that area, Haywood and Sharpe have overshot God's Word for the sake of publicizing their agenda.
Thanks for the passage.
064 9:51 PM, October 20, 2006
Memphismom02 said...
I will choose to acknowledge leadership characteristics in someoneone who Walks the Walk and not just Talks the Talk. Any "preacher" can stand in a pulpit and tell us what God's Word says. We are in need of a PASTOR at Bellevue, one who loves and cares for his sheep.
There is another staff member who will very soon be leaving Bellevue. This man will be GREATLY missed. He will say that he is being led to establish this new venture -- but will any of us believe it??? I believe he has seen the handwriting on the wall and cannot condone the leadership he must serve under. How many more staff members of Bellevue must we lose? Just what DOES it take to remove a preacher from a Southern Baptist church when he won't step down of his own accord?
Another "change" to notch up for the new regime: No Mother/Daughter Retreat in the fall at Camp Cordova. "They" (whoever "they" is) said something to the effect to the Children's division that they had to drop this retreat, as the church must focus on evangelism and something else. This retreat has been an all-time favorite for moms & daughters at Bellevue for many years. Those attending paid for it--it wasn't a freebie. Well.........we were warned there'd be changes. So do we just sit and wait for the next item to be added to or deleted from the list, or do we members have a say???
065 10:12 PM, October 20, 2006
bunkerhill said...
I will gladly comment on your last post tommorow after some sleep. In the meantime don't be so quick to write off the selling of trips for profit to the assembly as a small matter. In Mark 11 Jesus made Himself clear that profit taking activities which were legitimate in the market place are to be condemned in a House of Prayer. Matthew Henerys commentary is helpful here. God Bless
066 10:17 PM, October 20, 2006
straining gnats said...
Truth Hunter,
I smile as I read your words; know that I appreciate your warm and sincere spirit in this. I'm going to respond to a few things you've said, and do know that I do so not in an effort to pick you apart but to help.
"When those billboards went up on I-40, all I could see was ego."
Ha... me too! I grimaced when I saw them as well, but for a different reason. I saw Bellevue doing the "plastering our pastor's name and face on everything" that I saw for 15 years prior to Pastor Gaines coming! I can't tell you how many times I shook my head in disbelief!
However... that was not the pastor's idea. I heard him say so on more than one occasion. So don't pin that one on him; that goes to whoever heads up the Billboard ministry.
"First, would you say that even if we know a pastor (a hypothetical pastor, not Dr. Gaines) has lied and set himself up to profit financially from the church, we should still follow him?"
Do we have documented proof that said pastor has "set himself up to profit financially from the church?" Those are stout allegations and should have proof before being verbalized.
If I were to find out AS FACT that this is happening, I will ask God to (1) show me another place to be a part of, or (2) take care of it in His own way.
Because I have a high regard for God (I think...), and hold to His Sovereignty even over the feeding of birds, I trust Him with it.
"Do we submit to his authority until he dies or leaves? If so, that would mean some are obligated to spend the rest of their lives under the authority of an ungodly man."
That's what it looks like... either submit or go elsewhere. Biblically, there's just not a case for overthrowing God-ordained authority. We wouldn't overthrow God, so we shouldn't do so with His representative either.
"Can you provide New Testament passages concerning the church that are relevant in this regard? I don't discount the Old Testament, but the model for the Christian church is set out in the New Testament."
Without sounding trite, basically anything from Matthew to Revelation applies here now. This whole issue has taken on so many different personalities and sides, any chapter in the New Testament will apply.
Specifically, Philippians 2:1-8; Ephesians 4; the Pastoral epistles; 1 Corinthians 6:1-8; ...
Praying through Psalms has helped me... amazing how relevant they are. David really shows his reliance upon God to take care of it. I have to believe that He did.
"I don't want to be argumenative, I just need to understand. I bet I am not the only one struggling in this regard."
I have no doubt about your motive or need for understanding. Let's keep talking like this.
Blessings to you.
067 10:19 PM, October 20, 2006
straining gnats said...
Bunkerhill,
Don't be so quick to "write them" up, either.
068 10:23 PM, October 20, 2006
ilovebbc said...
When Dr. Rogers used to take trips to the Holy Land, he would announce from the pulpit that a meeting would be held in the Chapel for those interested in going. I believe all that Bro. Steve has done publicly from the pulpit is the same thing.
A quick look on the Internet and asking Dr. Rogers pastor friends, some whom have commented on BBC Open Forum, will confirm that the very common practice of pastors/group leaders getting free ticket(s) is not new. If Dr. Rogers got free tickets, what did he do with them? Perhaps he gave them quietly and confidentially as God led him. Deacon Calcotte says that's what Bro. Steve intended to do with some of the free tickets, except now it can't be done as a quiet act of love. If the same practice was done on Dr. Rogers trips, were those who went on the Rogers trips aware they might have paid more because some were going free? I don't know but what I wonder is, if before posting headlines on his website in an attempt to stir up the congregation, did Mr. Haywood check with Linda Glance or Joyce Rogers or someone else and see if things are being done any differently this time than they have been on any of the other trips? Maybe this wasn't done on the Rogers trips but my point is does Mr. Haywood know if it's different this time? If it's not different, why didn't he start up a website after one of Dr. Rogers Holy Land trips and see if we were going to lose our tax exempt status?
Regarding the display case on the west side of the sanctuary, over the last few years there have been displays featuring all our former pastors, Jim Whitmire when he retired, etc. Now, since Brother Steve is relatively new and many don't know a lot about him, there's a feature of his life and ministry.
The billboards were an excellent way to help make him known to the community who did not know him before he became our pastor. As they channel surf on Sunday morning, they might go by the channel with Bellevue and say "hey, that's the guy on the billboard" and stop and watch and hear the Gospel preached.
Again, I ask why can't savingbellevue.com stop posting new things publicly and let us submit our questions to the Committee that has been formed? By the way, some don't seem to know the process for that. An announcement was made that forms for submitting questions are available at the ERC. If we don't like their response(s) after they've done their work, then we can decide what should be done. I wonder if before posting that Union City audio or the insinuation that Brother Steve is going to profit from the cruise, Mr. Haywood tried to contact Brother Steve or his office about it? If so, he could have/should have posted their response along with his insinuations.
069 6:35 AM, October 21, 2006
straining gnats said...
Ilovebbc,
Well stated. And I do too.
070 7:09 AM, October 21, 2006
notastepfordsheep said...
ilovebbc wrote:
1. "A quick look on the Internet and asking Dr. Rogers pastor friends, some whom have commented on BBC Open Forum, will confirm that the very common practice of pastors/group leaders getting free ticket(s) is not new. If Dr. Rogers got free tickets, what did he do with them?"
To be blunt, I don't care what Dr. Rogers did with them (if he got them). That's the "everybody else does it" mentality. We're talking about the here and now and Dr. Gaines. I was the first one who stated that preachers (or anyone else) who sponsor these trips do the same thing, but I've never thought it looked good, especially when the people paying full fare weren't aware of this "perk." Why not stand out from the crowd and say, "I'm not going to give the appearance of impropriety, whether there's any real impropriety there or not?" It was pointed out that Dehoney Travel will give a 2-for-50 or other "host benefit" ratio which significantly reduces the price for everyone. This would have been another option. Of course, if everyone signing up is aware of the arrangement before signing up, there's no problem. The question is, were they?
And the problems we're seeing now did not all begin with Dr. Gaines' tenure. Dr. Rogers had delegated responsibility for a lot of the day to day operations of Bellevue several years before he retired, and I fear some of those given these responsibilities took advantage of his trusting nature. What worked under his leadership isn't working any more, at least not for the well being of the whole church. Dr. Gaines just happened to come into this environment where no one thought all the checks and balances were needed. Problem is, they were needed -- then and now. I think Dr. Rogers may have been a little too trusting of those who surrounded him. The saying, "Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely," could be applied here. Sooner or later, when this much money is involved (the entire budget of Bellevue, not the funds for the tour), there's going to be someone who yields to temptation. Mark Sharpe claims to know that this has indeed happened and is only trying to make sure those responsible are held accountable.
2. "Regarding the display case on the west side of the sanctuary, over the last few years there have been displays featuring all our former pastors, Jim Whitmire when he retired, etc. Now, since Brother Steve is relatively new and many don't know a lot about him, there's a feature of his life and ministry."
I, too, have found the displays interesting and informative. I really don't think it was Dr. Gaines' idea for them to build him a "shrine." Someone offered to paint a portrait of him to go in the west lobby near the big paintings of Dr. Lee, Dr. Pollard, and Dr. Rogers, and he declined, reportedly saying it was way too soon and inappropriate right now for something like that since those pastors were here so much longer than he.
3. "The billboards were an excellent way to help make him known to the community who did not know him before he became our pastor. As they channel surf on Sunday morning, they might go by the channel with Bellevue and say 'hey, that's the guy on the billboard' and stop and watch and hear the Gospel preached."
I don't recall seeing but one of those billboards, and that was on a side street, but I don't have a problem with that either. Nor do I think those were Dr. Gaines' idea either. Now, if they kept them up for years, or if they start springing up all over town -- my opinion could change. For now, I consider that a non-issue.
071 8:37 AM, October 21, 2006
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072 8:40 AM, October 21, 2006
bunkerhill said...
If you wish to see a Great example of what happens when religion,power and the Love of money mix Watch the movie "Luther" Is is now in every Blockbuster
073 8:52 AM, October 21, 2006
notastepfordsheep said...
Good explanation of just what I'm thinking, bunkerhill! I thought of the "Robinhood" aspect, too. You just happened to write it.
On a related topic, does anyone know how the Bellevue Bookstore operates? I mean, is it a separate entity that happens to be located inside the church building, or is it part of the church and budgeted along with the "church" operations? Just wondering, as that's always kind of bothered me to see money exchanging hands -- in the Lord's house -- and on Sundays no less. Not implying there's anything improper going on. Just wanting to be clear.
074 9:37 AM, October 21, 2006
youwillknowthem said...
straining gnat said,
"I give you the example of King Saul. God, in answer to the request of his people, gave Israel a king in Saul. 1 Samuel 15 and 16 records the fact that God rejected Saul because of his sin... yet still allowed him to remain in office as king of Israel. It wasn't until a dozen or so years later that David assumed the throne, after Saul removed himself from kingship by suicide."
If God spoke directly to Chuck Taylor and Chuck Taylor annointed Steve Gaines King of Bellevue, this analogy might be useful. I think a better comparison would be the Chief Priest and the Sanhedrin. God did not give divine immunity to leaders in the New Testament Church.
075 9:59 AM, October 21, 2006
youwillknowthem said...
straining gnat said,
"Do we have documented proof that said pastor has "set himself up to profit financially from the church? Those are stout allegations and should have proof before being verbalized."
If documents were forthcoming, the documented evidence would be forthcoming. Transparency and accountability have been the issue since DAY ONE and would resolve the issue if Matthew 18:17 were followed. Then we could end this circular discussion.
076 10:14 AM, October 21, 2006
bunkerhill said...
If you look on Steves application for the trip the price will reflect the cash or free trip profit ratio.If it is 4899.00 then its 1 for 5. If that does not show intent then what does. I can't imagine it being fully disclosed the explanation coming forth now that the trip is marked up almost 1000 per customer so my extended family can go free and or I can give free trips away. You dear people don't need to burn Steve at the stake over this but you do need to wake up and stop treating pastors like Popes.When you do that then the Popes you have now will either repent or leave the ministry. It really is in your hands indirectly and directly in Gods. Be careful because we all have feet of clay. Im soory but Senior pastor is not an office as Steve calls it to be obeyed. The bible does not teach Senior pastor rule.The Bible does teach that pastors "plural" are to sheperd and lead and the way you know one is a true sheperd is the sheep follow WILLINGLY. Real sheperds don't threaten people the way Steve did in his sermon on Oct 8 with the "God will remove His protective hedge stuff". That sermon alone to any thinking conservative scholar is absolute NONSENSE The hedge language pulled from Job was way way out of context.
077 11:16 AM, October 21, 2006
rediculous said...
Hey look at me: For more than 5 years I have never broken a law as big as what Gaines et al did when climbing that fence.
"Mistake of the mind not heart": let him tell it to a judge.
There is a model for removing a pastor from office. Any one (I am not directing this at any one person) who doesn't know it but claims they know scripture needs to be still and go do some reading.
Hint: it is the same standard that applies to any Christian in sin against his brother.
Trespassing against an entire settled community is a greivous sin against every member of the community who pay a LOT extra to know intruders are not walking freely in their door steps. Not everybody even knows what Gaines looks like. Just imagine if Gaines were African American. He'd be in jail now.
On some other occasion, if they were out doing pure evangelism, they would still have to explain it to a judge if caught over a fence. They are adults and have to take responsibility for their actions.
Saying "I'm sorry" to some church morning congregation just to save face means that over two months later Gaines et al, are STILL in violation of Matthew 18.
Just this one admitted sin (known as fact by the whole assembly) and yet still unresolved consequences is enough for the Holy Spirit through scripture to urge us to shun Gaines, et al.
But apparently some people are allowed to break laws that they think are not applicable to themsleves. And what's worse: the assembled body of Holy Spirit filled believers applauded him and laughed when he talks about it.
This is NOT the best church in the world/America/Memphis. You better never say that again.
I'm just calling it the way I see it.
Bunkerhill:
If you go to an attorney for $100 and give him an affadavit, he can post your affadavit minus your name on his website/blog.
Sounds like you've been carrying a burden. Take a load off.
078 12:37 PM, October 21, 2006
bunkerhill said...
I have thought about it but you guys need to figure this one out for yourselves. It really looks like you have some folks on this Blog that are seeing what is up.Don't miss the forest here for the tree "Steve Gains". What you have in the S Baptist world is alot like the state of the Roman Catholic clergy ruled system before the reformation.1The people don't really know the scriptures for themselves.2 The preachers induce alot of guilt in order to have control.3 The clergy VERY rarley stand up to each other. 4 Money is king. The movie Luther is right on point for what you have your hand on here. If you have not seen it Watch it. Once you begin to see God rightly as the merciful God He is then the Popes of today can't pull your string. I really do feel deeply for all of you. I must tell you I could never return to the S Baptist world that I grew up in.
079 1:08 PM, October 21, 2006
amenbrother2 said...
To westtnbarrister: You spent a lot of time teaching us about pragmatism in the church, and I for one read every word and appreciated the depth and the scripture to back it up. I got the message and I agree with everything you said. If all of you other folks did not take the time to read it, you should. WTB, you seem to be sort of "old school" and very perfect in your articulation of your points. I almost thought you might be Mike Spradlin because you are very precise in your delivery. Since I don't know if he has a history in Jackson, TN as you said earlier you did, then I cannot know if you are he. You probably are not, but it is sort of fun trying to guess about all the true identities. Thank you for your explanation. Like I said, I don't think anyone else I have seen on any of this has so easily and abundantly used the proper scriptures for their points. If you have a church of your own, I would like to visit.
To Bunkerhill:
It sounds like you know a lot of things firsthand and are trying to use some restraint so as not to give your identity totally away. I am with you, Brother. I was raised in another popular denomination and am now looking to move out of the Southern Baptist denomination. I was saved in a non-denom. Bible church in 1974 and joined Bellevue in 1979. Can you tell me what church you go to now or would it give something away? Is it even in Memphis? I have that same discernment gift I have heard others speak of, and I have also had that same "check" in my spirit, feeling of guilt, denial, blaming myself, etc. that a few others have described on here. I wanted Steve Gaines as the new pastor, too--at first, anyway. Something has happened since then and only the Lord knows exactly what. I am convinced we did not get the same man that had visited and preached at our church when Dr. Rogers went on vacation all summer. Something changed. The direction in which my tithe is going is also changing.
I have seen so many errors in truth on some of these posts. The errors seem to be that some of the people must not have ever read through the Bible and I see scripture misquoted, parts omitted in order to make a point contrary to the truth of the matter. I was not going to get involved in any of this, but I really hate to see these things gotten away with just to try to appear "right". Seems like the ones doing it are the ones who are taking up for the pastor. I think the one who got it right about that was the lady (I think) who said that maybe others who do not have the gift of discernment are not able to "see" the real picture. She was using a television show installment in an effort to make her point easier to understand. Well, I understood what she was saying before she even used that comparison, so I really understood and agreed that that might be the reason for the split in opinions on all this.
I hope you WTB and BH will see this and let me know the answer to what I asked you. If you don't want to risk exposing who you are, let me know on here and I will give you my email address. You would never have to tell me who you are even then and I won't be bothering you all the time. I just need to find a new church that thinks the old-fashioned way.
Please, show me the way.
080 11:18 PM, October 21, 2006
notastepfordsheep said...
amenbrother2 wrote:
"To westtnbarrister: You spent a lot of time teaching us about pragmatism in the church, and I for one read every word and appreciated the depth and the scripture to back it up. I got the message and I agree with everything you said."
Amen, amenbrother2! I, too, read every word and agree. WTB expressed so eloquently a lot of things I haven't been able to. I hadn't really thought about the billboards that way, but he made a good point about that.
"If you have a church of your own, I would like to visit."
Now, brother. Let's think about that a minute. I have assumed from his screen name that WTB is a lawyer. I could be wrong, but do we really want a lawyer in the pulpit? Oh, the horror! :-) (Just kidding, WTB! You have more insight than the majority of preachers in the pulpit today.)
"I think the one who got it right about that was the lady (I think) who said that maybe others who do not have the gift of discernment are not able to "see" the real picture. She was using a television show installment in an effort to make her point easier to understand. Well, I understood what she was saying before she even used that comparison, so I really understood and agreed that that might be the reason for the split in opinions on all this."
Thank you for your kind words. I didn't want to offend anyone with that illustration, but it keeps playing in my mind. Who'd have thunk one could find a lesson on spiritual discernment in The X-Files?
081 11:49 PM, October 21, 2006
amenbrother2 said...
To NASS:
Yes, you were "right on" with your explanation of the discernment issue. Yes, you are also correct about a barrister being a lawyer, but I think our WTB might be a preacher who is also a lawyer--like Greg Addison who now has his own church in Paragould, AR (I think). I am not saying that it IS Greg Addison. He is just one good example of somebody that it could be. I am hoping that I will also hear from him and Bunkerhill today.
People can knock this website if they want to, but I think it is a good thing since it sheds light on some very important matters that should not be in the dark. More members of Bellevue need to come here to find out from their brothers and sisters in Christ what they otherwise might have never had any peace about. The Holy Spirit is really directing us--at least you and I know it, NASS; and, of course, not JUST us. I am 100% certain of it. I do not want to stir up trouble with anyone else, but then, sometimes trouble comes with being set apart in this world. I will take that if that must be the case because I could never go back even if it were possible to where I was before I knew Jesus. Hallelujah!
Love to ALL of you who read this.
082 6:38 AM, October 22, 2006
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083 10:24 AM, October 22, 2006
bunkerhill said...
One more thing about my last comments. This Holy Land stuff most likley started out as a fairly innocent thing that has become a bad thing. The real problem is that S Baptist churches are moving away from the ideal of congregation rule to this business of the Pastor Rule. If the churches were doing this right the people would organize the trips and make sure of getting the best trip for the best price and invite the pastor. They could even give him a free ticket if THEY chose.To be honest its like one of my seminary professors said. "Our folks in the pew have fallen asleep at the wheel"
084 11:01 AM, October 22, 2006
notastepfordsheep said...
bunkerhill,
The only movies entitled Luther that I can find are about the life of Martin Luther. I doubt they were doing Holy Land tours in his day, so it must be some other movie. More info, please?
085 11:05 AM, October 22, 2006
BR said...
Bunkerhill,
When you referred to the sermon of Oct 8, all I can remember thinking is "this guy thinks he is Moses???" I have gained a lot of insight from your postings, the details were new to me, but my opinion of the man was always the same.
I know for a FACT that some (if not most) of the men whose names were submitted to the pastor search committee were not even visited, no tapes requested and never even contacted let alone given a chance to visit Bellevue so we could hear them preach - I know one very well qualified man personally. If the new Communication Committee is anything like the Search Committee - and I presume it is from the men that are on it - we are no better off than we were before. The questions will be "set aside", deemed "unworthy" of a reply or possibly just thrown away before they ever get to the full body of the committee.
The "profits" from the trip as well as past trips would be interesting information if we could obtain it. Of course, that would be difficult since there is a "silent minority" running things. I would be real surprised if Dr Rogers took such enormous kickbacks, but from what I understand, it is common practice for most of these type trips. Too bad the extra monies could not be used for misson trip or youth trip scholarships. My children never get to go on these things because they are too expensive. I know that there are folks in the youth dept that say that there are scholarships available, but if you have ever seen the people that actually get a scholarship, they are driving new cars and living in new houses, so the ones that actually need the money are the ones that end up staying at home like my kids because I could not justify using the Lord's money to send my kid to the beach.
I am giving the Lord's tithe to the one place I do not fear supporting - Love Worth Finding. I watched this moring and was blessed by the music and the message, and I didn't have to clap and sing the "same old 7 words 11 times" like BBC does now - that was a great comment previously posted by another!
Forgive my attitude, I am really sick of all of this!
086 12:05 PM, October 22, 2006
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087 12:06 PM, October 22, 2006
amenbrother2 said...
To Bunkerhill:
Did you miss my comment to you at 6:38 a.m. this morning? Please answer if you can.
To WTBarrister:
The later in the day it gets without seeing your name appear makes me think I was correct in my guess about you in my 6:38 a.m. post. Honestly, it's the way you wrote that long response on pragmatism that made me think you are not only a barrister but also a pastor. You did a great job on that piece and I felt like I GREW after taking all that in. Excellent!
Appreciation to all my brothers and sisters.
088 2:54 PM, October 22, 2006
amenbrother2 said...
OOPS!
Bunkerhill and WTB:
Sorry, it was in my 11:18 p.m. post that I directed my comments to you.
089 2:57 PM, October 22, 2006
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090 3:50 PM, October 22, 2006
westtnbarrister said...
Hi Amenbrother2,
Sorry it took so long to respond, after lunch I needed a nap. I am neither Dr. Spradlin nor Brother Addison, but I am flattered and humbled you thought I might be. Like you, I am a layman concerned about his church. I don't have their training and I’m not possessed of their wisdom. I have a doctorate, but as NASS suggested, it's in jurisprudence. I was a lawyer for a season, but I haven't practiced in some years. I read all kinds of Christian thinkers and I study a lot. My view of of the church rests squarely on my understanding of Scripture and from what I have gleaned from the writings of others.
If you still have questions of me, I will be happy to try to answer. You can send email to westtnbarrister@yahoo.com.
Thank you,
WTB
091 5:31 PM, October 22, 2006
bunkerhill said...
Amen Brother, in Memphis I would look at the PCA Presbyterian or Indepenent Presbyterian. Ive heard 2nd Presbyterian is good. It is in the EPC. The S Baptist world is SCARY with Richard Land teaching Pastor Rule. The Presbyterians are thoughtful and I can assure you the Non Sense preached by Steve Gains would not even be allowed as a Sunday School teacher.Those folks are not uptight about infant Baptism if your not on board. Im sure you must have some Non Denom churches in Memphis. You need to be careful on those because alot of times they are like S Baptist with the personality cult and pastor rule stuff.I can tell you this , NO HOLY LAND BUSINESS from the pulpits of the conservative Presbyterian churches. The only thing I will caution you about is these folks are not aganist a social drink. But if it makes you feel better Spurgeon loved his Whisky. I will be honest with you I am a Reformed Baptist in the linage of Spurgeon,with a twist of what you might call today moderate. To barrister I have a question for you. Did you know Dr. Byrd or John Lee Taylor from W Jackson personally? Also what is your definition of a Liberal?
092 6:02 PM, October 22, 2006
westtnbarrister said...
Hi Bunkerhill,
I knew both men well. Dr. Byrd baptized me.
When I have used the term liberal on this board I have used it as most current Southern Baptists would use it. The liberals are those who were on the other side in the “Conservative Resurgence.” Primarily that means they did not accept the Bible as the inerrant and authoritative Word of God. When considering the breadth of Christianity, however, most of those men would not be called liberals, at least not in the neo-orthodox (as I understand the term) sense. However, there were some like Dr. Glenn Hinson, a former professor at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, who could only be considered neo-orthodox. I believe he now teaches at one of the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship schools. He believes the Gospel accounts were "embellished,” that Christ was not raised with a physical body, and that missions should be “reconceived as a dialogue with other religions.” And then you’ve got Dr. Bill Leonard, formerly of Southern too, pushing for acceptance of homosexuals in church life. He teaches that Christianity “must move beyond the Bible if it wishes to survive in a changing society,” and that “religious issues are not matters of right and wrong, but of equally valuable alternatives.” Whatever label you want to hang on those men, I wholeheartedly disagree with their views.
You mentioned you are a Reformed Baptist. I don’t think our leaders want us to know it, but the founders of the Southern Baptist Convention were primarily Calvinists. The denomination drifted away from the doctrine in the early to mid 20th century.
Now that Southern Baptists have settled on the inerrancy and authority of Scripture, many are reexamining their doctrinal positions. Right now the hot topic is speaking in tongues, but I foresee a larger battle looming over reformed theology.
Our pastor is staunchly against Calvinism, as was Dr. Rogers. I respect their opinion on the issue, but I can't help but wonder if some of what we see in the evangelical world is because of Arminianism. The seeker-sensitive purpose-driven movement ascribes to the notion that if you package the gospel right, people will be saved. This idea is rooted in Arminianism, which views conversion as an act of the human will. Its goal is a human decision, rather than a transformation of the heart by God through conviction of the Holy Spirit. A belief in the sovereignty of God in salvation would bring an end to a lot of the nonsense that is going on in the church.
Dr. Gaines preached a sermon on salvation last fall. He clearly disagreed with Calvinism and I respect his view. He holds a legitimate and defensible position. For several years I have defended an essentially Arminian view in an ongoing friendly debate with a five-point friend. But Dr. Gaines sermon challenged me to reconsider this doctrine. He is smart and has more Bible knowledge than I will ever have, but I believe he presented a caricature of the Calvinist position.
Some of my spiritual heroes are Calvinists. Men like Spurgeon, Edwards, Al Mohler, and Francis Schaeffer are Calvinists. Their acceptance of the doctrine does not mean I believe it, but their acceptance makes it worthy of careful and honest consideration. To that end I have been studying everything I can find on the matter. I have found John Piper, R.C. Sproul, and John MacArthur particularly persuasive. My sense of what is right and fair rebels against aspects of Calvinism (I must admit that is human pride, I can think of no doctrine more humbling than election), but thanks largely to the influence of Dr. Rogers, I am resolved to believe what the Bible says, not what I want it to say. R.C. Sproul has written about his early struggle in this regard. I haven’t jumped ship just yet, but my hands are on the rail. I will continue to study and pray.
Pastor Gaines is only one of the major SBC leaders to speak out against Calvinism recently. Jerry Vines preached against it only last week. Paige Patterson and Johnny Hunt have also spoken out against it. But some of our leading intellectuals—Al Mohler, Russell Moore, and Voddie Baucham (who recently preached at Bellevue)—are committed to the Calvinist position. My understanding is two of the SBC seminaries, including Southern in Louisville, are now dominated by Calvinists. Within a few years we will have thousands of Calvinist SBC seminary graduates working in the SBC. I am afraid tensions between the two camps will lead to a major fight.
If I were to leave the SBC, I would consider a PCA congregation, perhaps Riveroaks Presbyterian in Germantown. However, I am praying for a reformation of the SBC. I don’t want to leave my church or my denomination.
Do you know John Lee Taylor? If so, I would like to know what you think of him. If you prefer to email me privately, send email to westtnbarrister@yahoo.com. I will certainly preserve your anonymity (and anyone else’s).
093 8:12 PM, October 22, 2006
allofgrace said...
WTB & bunkerhill,
Thank you brothers for coming forth about your theological leanings. I too am a reformed Baptist. I've hesitated to make that known for fear of being discounted, seeing that there's such an anti-Calvinist atmostphere within Bellevue and the SBC at large. What most SBCers don't realize, as WTB pointed out..is that the delegates who founded this denomination were by and large Calvinists. Now, I've never had a probem working alongside my non-Calvinist brethren in SBC churches. I don't make that a requirement for fellowship with other believers of different theological convictions. I do tire of high profile pastors misstating what Calvinists believe and practice. If you really want to know what a Calvinist believes...you should ask a Calvinist...not someone who is radically opposed to the doctrine. I believe all the hoohah in the SBC over Calvinism is really just a smokescreen which clouds the real issues which threaten to undo the denomination. Calvinists have been a part of SBC life since it began. However some of the things we now see taking place in SBC churches has not. These are the issues we need to be focused on. We would all do well to spend time studying church history...which includes the Reformation...study carefully the doctrines which these men espoused...and the heresies that the church has had to confront throughout it's history. As I stated on another thread...there are really no new heresies...only the old ones repackaged. I agree with what someone stated that some of what we see these days in the SBC is akin to what happened in the Roman Catholic church. Leaders who refuse to be questioned, ignorance of Biblical truth and church history being encouraged in the pew, et al. I think Arminian theology is more popular in America because it lines up perfectly with the American ideal of rugged individualism, democracy, and fair play...but we need to remember...God's kingdom is just that...a kingdom..not a demoncracy...God is King.and He rules..as fallen human beings we are not qualified to judge what is truly fair and right in God's eyes. He is absolute monarch..and He is good. Whether or not we can understand all His ways. All this said..understand...I have no agenda to convert any individual, church, or denomination to Calvinism per se...what I do desire to see however, is Christians to become Biblically literate...to test all things in light of scriptural truth..and gain a deeper understanding of church history, and in particular Southern Baptist history..in these things we will gain the discernment to help us find our way in these important issues before us...at Bellevue, the SBC, and the evangelical church at large.
094 6:21 AM, October 23, 2006
westtnbarrister said...
Hi Allofgrace,
"what I do desire to see however, is Christians to become Biblically literate...to test all things in light of scriptural truth..and gain a deeper understanding of church history, and in particular Southern Baptist history"
Amen!
About the Arminianism/Calvinism question, I pray the SBC continues to be a big enough tent for both doctrines. Calvinism is a minority view now, but it's gaining due to Calvinism in the seminaries.
Let me be clear, I don't want to debate Calvinism here nor do I desire to convert anyone to Calvinism. I am having trouble fully accepting it myself. It is certainly an interesting question.
There was an interesting article on Reformed Theology and the SBC in a recent issue of Christianity Today. Here is a link for the article:
Article
An encouraging paragraph from the article:
"This generation of young Christians is more committed, more theologically intense, more theologically curious, more self-aware and self-conscious as believers because they were not raised in an environment of cultural Christianity," Mohler said.
Dr. Daniel Akin, President of SBTS in Wake Forest, echoes your sentiments:
"Let us be known for being rigorously biblical, searching the Scriptures to determine what God really says on [God's sovereignty] and other key doctrinal issues," Akin wrote. "For the most part, we are not doing this, and our theological shallowness is an indictment of our current state and an embarrassment to our history!"
095 7:20 AM, October 23, 2006
just-the-truth said...
What was done on previous trips with the former pastor....
096 12:05 PM, October 23, 2006
Housewife said...
Hi Bunker.
I think it's time for us to know what happened. It seems like you could really help bring light to all of this by sharing what happened. I know that's not easy. But look at what happened when others opened up and gave light to their stories. If it wasn't for them, Gaines would still have everyone believing he was blameless.
BTW, Gaines said that 100% of his deacons were behind him (I'm paraphrasing). Well, of course he does. He fires anyone who isn't. That's one way to guarantee everyone is behind you. Anyone who diasgrees with him is either gone or too scared to speak up.
God bless.
097 12:06 PM, October 23, 2006
just-the-truth said...
About the trip, how was this handled under our former pastor. Does anyone have any info. about this?
098 12:14 PM, October 23, 2006
MOM4 said...
I remember seeing tours under Dr Rogers that were through Templeton Tours, but if I am not mistaken, Love Worth Finding hosted those. You may want to check with somebody there.
099 1:31 PM, October 23, 2006
Truth Hunter said...
WTB,
Just finished the Christianity Today article. I did not know Calvinism is growing like it is among Southern Baptists. Thank you for the heads up. Something else to think about...
100 3:07 PM, October 23, 2006
bunkerhill said...
PLEASE If you have not yet done so Go to Blockbuster and rent "Luther" The similarities of the Roman system then and the Southern Baptist preachers network is amazing. I realize the abuses then were more severe but the attitudes the clergy had about the almighty dollar is the same. Also if you study the way they are always building each other up or better yet "PUFFING each other up you will find the same stuff in Luthers day.
101 6:42 PM, October 23, 2006
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102 7:06 PM, October 23, 2006
notastepfordsheep said...
bunkerhill,
What we're seeing in the SBC and a microcosm of the same in BBC is nothing but the "good ol' boy" network in action. It's worked for those in power and those seeking power for centuries. It will continue to work as long as good people are afraid to stand up to the good ol' boys and continue to do nothing. We can talk about all this until we're blue (or red) in the face, but until we put some serious action behind the words, it's going to continue to be business as usual, and those of us who find we can't stomach it any longer will finally just drift off into the sunset -- which is exactly what they want us to do. As a woman, I'm getting sick and tired of waiting (as I'm reminded nearly every Sunday I always should) for the male "leadership" of Bellevue to step up to the plate.
103 7:10 PM, October 23, 2006
westtnbarrister said...
NASS,
I agree with you. It is indeed time for the leaders to step up and do something. If they don't, this will metastasize into something even uglier and we will lose our church. We see signs that is beginning to happen already.
Other than discuss our concerns and pray, I'm unsure what any of us can do.
I've communicated my thoughts to our deacons, most did not bother to respond.
Some that did respond told me to leave them alone. Apparently one email was an overwhelming burden.
Some told me all the answers have already been provided. A lot of people missed those answers, so they need to repeat them. But the funny thing was, I did not email them about the "Saving Bellevue" questions. I urged immediate action toward reconciliation as I am doing here. Apparently they assumed they knew where I stood and they responded without even reading what I wrote.
Some deacons agreed with me and I pray they have the strength and the numbers to save our church.
I don't believe we can continue our regular services as if nothing is going on. Everyone knows this hasn't gone away and they want to know something will be done to end it. The tension is palpable and it will only grow until the church body is reconciled. Yesterday in the first service there were whole groups of empty seats around me that are never empty. Is that a coincidence? Am I the only who senses this is affecting our worship?
Is the plan to pretend this never happened and hope it goes away? Or do they want a lot of people go away?
It is time for men of courage to stand up.
104 9:29 PM, October 23, 2006
notastepfordsheep said...
westtnbarrister wrote: "Is the plan to pretend this never happened and hope it goes away? Or do they want a lot of people go away?"
Sadly, both of the above. It seems to be working quite well, too.
"It is time for men of courage to stand up."
Amen.
105 9:53 PM, October 23, 2006
MOM4 said...
WTN, NASS
I believe they are trying to run us off. I will say that any BFC teacher or Deacon that has or knows someone who left should contact them to find out why, (even if they think they already know why). If that BFC teacher or Deacon has not attempted this or is not willing to do so, they do not need to be in that position.
If you do not support Steve Gaines then you are told to leave. This is the most ungodly of behaviors and is pure evil. For him to state that to any member for any reason is straight from the heart of satan!
He should follow the biblical example in Matt 18 if he wants to get rid of somebody. Is that going to happen, I think not.
So if he is telling his fellow christians to depart the fellowship - he is separating himself from fellowship with Christ and all the "good" sermons in the world will not justify his actions. Time will tell in attendance and tithes, but he has split churches before - I do not think he cares as long as he gets his way. So sad.
106 9:55 AM, October 24, 2006
Mike Bratton said...
"If you do not support Steve Gaines then you are told to leave. This is the most ungodly of behaviors and is pure evil. For him to state that to any member for any reason is straight from the heart of satan!"
The latest exhibit of emotionalism.
Please, whoever you are, reconsider that statement.
--Mike
107 10:36 AM, October 24, 2006
BR said...
Mom4,
"If you do not support Steve Gaines then you are told to leave. This is the most ungodly of behaviors and is pure evil. For him to state that to any member for any reason is straight from the heart of satan!"
I agree, telling those in the body of Christ to get out is not in scripture, and neither is it of the Lord. It is not your emotions, it is a fact that flys in the face of everything scripture tells us.
108 11:00 AM, October 24, 2006
notastepfordsheep said...
I've often seen Bellevue referred to as the "flagship" church of the SBC. I seem to recall another ship of which it was said, "Even God couldn't sink this ship." Well, it did sink -- and on its maiden voyage no less. Maybe God didn't personally sink it, but He allowed it to sink.
I think there's a good lesson here. Are we just now seeing the tip of the iceberg?
109 11:37 AM, October 24, 2006
notastepfordsheep said...
Re my previous post:
Just to clarify... I wasn't saying that I believe Bellevue is going to "sink" (I don't), but I fear some of its leadership may be on a collision course with that iceberg.
110 1:13 PM, October 24, 2006
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