Thursday, November 13, 2008

Sex sells!

Ed Young, pastor of
Fellowship Church in Grapevine, Texas, and son of Ed Young, longtime pastor of Second Baptist, Houston, caused quite a splash last week with his "Seven Days of Sex" errr... progr... uhhh... stud... errr... series. The younger Young is sometimes referred to as "Ed Young, Jr.," but technically he's not a junior (different middle name than dad's). Ed Young, the younger, is but one of a generation of young, hip, primarily non-denominational, megachurch (or megachurch wannabe) pastors. You may recall this strange video he posted of himself last year. And this one.

The Dallas Morning News

The first sermon in this series can be seen
here. It's entitled, strangely and appropriately enough, "Leaving Lust Vegas - Toilet Water." Instead of a pulpit, he had a real toilet in the middle of the stage upon which he plopped his open Bible.

The idea for this... series... didn't originate with Ed Young. A.R. Williams, pastor of World Overcomers Church in Memphis, the mostly black megachurch that built this monstrosity, delivered a similar... performance... almost a year ago. You can read the whole story here and here.

Here's the scene:

"Members of World Overcomers were shocked on last Sunday morning when they entered the place where they assemble to worship God. In the pulpit was a queen-sized bed draped in burgundy and gold.

"Members were wondering why the place that normally Pastor Alton R. Williams preaches the word of God from had turned into a large bedroom, when he entered wearing a robe and pajama pants with his Bible in hand. The lights are dimmed, mood music is playing. Williams at this point lies on the bed reading from the Songs of Solomon.

"While still reading the Bible his wife Sherrilyn enters the sanctuary wearing a long red-feathered, seductive-fitting gown. Mrs. Williams very seductively walks across the pulpit-turned-bedroom and sits on the bed next to her husband. She closes his Bible and begins to rub on him, and then lifts him from the bed and very passionately embraces and kisses him. Pastor Williams, whose Sunday morning freak session is designed to save marriages, tells the women in the congregation, 'This is how to keep your husband so the Hoe don't get him.'"

Kinda makes you wonder how low these "pastors" can go!

Ed Young's blog provides more interesting reading.


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gmommy said...

Too repulsed for words

New BBC Open Forum said...

Let's admit it. This guy isn't playing with a full deck. He's laughing all the way to the bank, but he's still a few sandwiches short of a picnic.

More videos he posted of himself.

gmommy said...

I'm sure Junk will find the humor in this somewhere.

32yrs@bbc said...

He's a chip off the old block.
Sex is one of Ed Young, Sr.'s favorite topics.

JoshuaDavidWhitmire said...

That gives a whole new meaning to "Lay Ministry"

New BBC Open Forum said...

There you go, "gmommy"! Someone had to say it!

tn_lizzie2000 said...

Mr. Whitmire, I almost spilled my coffee laughing at your comment!

More places to saturate with absence AND people to saturate with prayer!

Methinks they don't know about the Holiness of God. No fear leads to no reverence.

Lin said...

Scritpure explains this:

2 Tim 3:

1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; 9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.
The Man of God and the Word of God

10 But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance, 11 persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra—what persecutions I endured. And out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

BkWormGirl said...

I actually don't disagree with Mr. Young's message. That being it is difficult to stay mad at your spouse if you are being intimate. And it is important for couple to make time for this portion of marriage.

However, this message should have been saved for a marriage retreat.

I shudder to think what message the kids got?!?!?!?!

BkWormGirl said...

If Mr. Young would use the publicity from this stunt and his celebrity status to very specifically share the Gospel message possibly it would make this show a little easy to understand.

I just keep coming back to our children. Churches who feel a need to cater to the world, leave our children behind. Will we ever care for our children? Will children ever be valuable? Sadly, I think not.

JoshuaDavidWhitmire said...

Thanks tn_lizzie2000! I just could not help myself. That was to easy even for someone like me.

It's a wonder that Christians are becoming the laughing stock of the world when pastors do things like these. The Bible and scripture are suffice enough to teach us about how to be Holy with sex, marriage, life etc...We do not need men like these pastors trying to give us their own visual interpretation on what the scripture is saying like with Song of Solomon.

If I was sitting in this sermon and the pastor started to do this display, I would be saying to myself, "What in God's green earth am I watching?" (while I cover my wife's eyes)

New BBC Open Forum said...

"I shudder to think what message the kids got?!?!?!?!"

Imagine being an 11 or 12-year-old kid sitting there with your parents! Just thinking about your parents doing... that. Eeek!

gmommy said... serious as this subject is and Lin and the others are SO right ...but I laughed out loud at your comment! Thanks for the wit!!

I have also been saying lately wonder people think Christians...and especially Baptist Christians are such yahoos!!!

Maybe a drama skit at a retreat but not at a worship service!!

And PLEASE!!!!! what he is advising will NOT make an unfaithful man faithful. Or a perverted man not perverted.

The type of cheating that is common place today.... take a look at or look close to home and see how deacons and pastors look the other way when they KNOW their brother is having an affair..... has nothing to do with wives "keeping their man happy at home"!

BWG...I'm with you on marriage and intimacy but I know too much to believe that responsibility being placed on the wife is going to solve sexual problems common among men in our culture.

gmommy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
oc said...

There is much disgust to speak of concerning the sexual aspect of this post. But much of my disgust lies on Young putting the Bible on a toilet. That tells me what he thinks of God's revelation to mankind and what the little turd thinks of the Holy, Almighty God.

Just sayin'.

BkWormGirl said...

GMommy -
I hope what I said did not lead you to believe I was implying that seven days of sexual encounters did anything to save a marriage. Or that the woman was responsible to rope a cheating spouse in. (Adults are each responsible for his or her own actions.) Nor does it stop cheating as you so aptly pointed out. I also would add at this point, it must be consensual on both participants side. I confess I am somewhat concerned that more than one spouse in Young's church may suffer because "pastor said we had to do this every night this week."

I was simply saying that in a world where withholding sexual favors is often viewed as an acceptable form of "punishment" toward a spouse, I think his message has value. God did give the gift of intimacy to married partners. I would estimate over 90% of suffering in marriages is because one or both of the partners is not following God's model for marriage.

For better or for worse, Young has done a lot of messages about sexual purity, and what God intended when He created sexual intimacy. I think there are so many lies about sex that it makes the message all that much more important.

However, I struggle with the idea that church needs to have a parental guidance viewing rating. I am not sure exactly how to go about instructing the church on what is true, without being extremely graphic. And yet, at the same time, it seems it should not be that difficult, somehow they managed to do that when I was growing up.

Last but not lease, OC, I think you assumption is a bit presumptuous. Just because your standards don't allow you to have your Bible near a bathroom, doesn't mean you get to bash him for not following your standards. Using your standards, I too am quite lacking, as I have scriptures written and posted all over my house, including my bathroom.

Ramesh said...

I do not know much about Ed Young. I feel the "show" he puts on is a waste. It would be better to preach the Bible without artifacts.

Speaking of Toilets:

Did you know, Protestant Reformation started by Martin Luther while he was sitting on the toilet (he had constipation and other problems) and it's reported he formulated his 95 theses while on the toilet. I also heard he has received divine revelation too (I can not verify this).

Discovery: Martin Luther's Toilet Flushed Out

BBC: Luther's lavatory thrills experts

Cranmer Blog: The Guardian on Martin Luther

oc said...

No, please understand. I'm not Mr. some ultra conservative fundamentalist prissy bibliolatry dude. I don't worship the Bible, but I worship the One who gave it to me. I pray in the shower, on the toilet, in my car, etc.
and recite Scripture there. But I don't display my Bible, the Word of God, to the eyes of the universe on my stinking toilet, on my rear end or anywhere like that in a less than honorable way. I show more respect for the word of God than that.
He is Holy. Although I do not worship the Bible, I worship the Author of the Bible, and it's more than just a magazine in the toilet, or a book to accompany me while I do my necessary human functions. What Young did to the Bible that day disgusts me, because that's God's word to me, and he had no right to put it where he decided the worth.

Just sayin'.

gmommy said...

Hey BWG,
I didn't think you said anything you didn't :)
I should have separated the rest of the post....I was agreeing with what you said then went on to my my other thoughts.

Not everyone has to think or do everything the same way. I defintely don't think I know it all and THANK GOD...HE isn't finished with me yet!!!!

But I'm not encouraged by the direction most of the preachers and churches are going in.
It's just not the right direction for me.
I'm embarrassed by Baptists in general. On Wade's read what most of these seminary educated men write is sad for many reasons.

BTW....I don't know Wade but I like alot of his posts and have emailed him a few short emails.
His response to me felt very sincere ,humble, and respectful. I really appreciate that he wasn't too busy being self annointed to be real.

gmommy said...

Thy Peace,
You always add something interesting!! :)

Ramesh said...

I like Pastor Wade. He is humble. He suffered much during the inquisition of IMB. He has supported Sheri Klouda through thick and thin. He has consistently tried to be expansive of SBC and not to reject people of differing views. He still suffers lot of persecution for his tolerant views of others though he is strictly conservative. He seems to live his life by his words.

The latest post is in honor of B.J.Higgins: "I Would Die for You" --- The Story of BJ Higgins

The above was a young 16 y.o. boy who went to Peru for missions and dies after contracting bubonic plague in August 2005.

May God bless B.J.Higgins.

oc said...

Would you shove a love letter in the kitty litter box?

Ramesh said...

OC: I agree with you about not putting the Bible on the toilet seat. I am surprised with lot of preachers while they are preaching, they are walking around with the Bible in their hands, and lot of time, they are wielding it as a club or waving it or just dumping it wherever while preaching.

To me, it's all sad. It tells me, they are not respecting the Word of God. Though the Bible is only a book made of paper, it contains the Word of God.

I have a friend, who would not even put anything on top of the Bible.

In general, it's always good to read the Bible, but some care must be taken in its use.

oc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
oc said...

And to make it perfectly clear, as if it hasn't been made clear enough yet,... even though his very own videos indict him so well...I must say... dude is a self absorbed wacko.

Of course that's just my HUMBLE opinion. :)

(Or maybe it's just some wide spread discernment I stepped in and couldn't easily shake off my shoe.)

Just sayin'.

New BBC Open Forum said...

"But much of my disgust lies on Young putting the Bible on a toilet."


32yrs@bbc said...

"Last but not lease, OC, I think you assumption is a bit presumptuous. Just because your standards don't allow you to have your Bible near a bathroom, doesn't mean you get to bash him for not following your standards. Using your standards, I too am quite lacking, as I have scriptures written and posted all over my house, including my bathroom."

I don't believe OC was being presumptious. There is a vast difference in having scriptures posted in your bathroom (I do too) and placing a toilet on the platform of a church and laying the Bible on it.
We live in an increasingly crude culture that is doing "what is right in their own eyes" (Judges 21:25). The word "appropriate" and "the fear of the Lord" are both missing in the culture and within the church.
Our churches have become a reflection of the culture with the
encouragement of many of our spiritual leaders. God condemned the spiritual leaders of ancient Israel for that very thing.

Lin said...

Why not just preach 1 corin 7?

1 Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me:
It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2 Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. 3 Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 But I say this as a concession, not as a commandment. 7 For I wish that all men were even as I myself. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that.

What Young is teaching is extra biblical. He is advising something the bible says is between a husband and wife to decide privately with mutual consent. Verse 6 is important.

I agree with OC about the toilet. This is nothing less than shock jock preaching. What next to entertain them and give them somthing to talk about all week?

The Word does not need such 'help'.

Lin said...

One has to wonder if the underground church in China is worried about great sex in their marriages? Maybe, like the Wurmbrands, they are more concerned about torture and prison because of His Name.

oc said...

While in many parts of the world, people are praying just to even get a copy of the Scriptures. People are getting tortured and killed for being caught in possession of the Word of God. Yet here, in America, we throw God's word around, twist it and distort it, stick it on a toilet, throw it in the mud, or do whatever we want to all in an effort to make a point which tends to make the preacher popular and bring in more money...All that makes me SICK.

bowtheknee said...

I am much less offended by someone putting their Bible on the back of their toilet because they are actually READING it every day than I am by Ed Young, Jr. putting a toilet up there on the platform and then sticking the Bible on it. That is so tacky and obviously irreverent. One of the things I have been looking for in a church is one that has some reverence for God. That has been a problem for me to find.


I'm with you on being embarrassed by the Baptist churches and also am very concerned by what I read on the comments under Wade's blog posts. I like Wade pretty well but don't agree with him on everything. The comments under one of his posts disturbed me so much that I told my husband I thought the SBC was in much worse shape than we ever thought! And we already thought it was pretty bad.

Hey OC - my cat shoves "love letters" in the box for me every day!!! YUK!!!!!

oc said...

Agreed Mr. Young, (I refuse to call him "reverend") indeed sex sells, and it sure is good for the married people and also for your wallet. That's a nice coincidence. But what about single people? You missed a niche that can be very profitable. So, how about just beyond the Starbucks stand, a little to the left of the bookstore and music sales, deep in the entry as you approach the sanctuary in an effort to worship the Almighty and Holy God, throw in a little more distraction... how about a section for temple prostitutes? That will really pack 'em in. Is that next? I think I read about that somewhere, I bet it yields big bucks.

oc said...

Those are not love letters your cat is leaving.
Do not cherish them, do not keep them. Do not pass them on.
Just sayin'. :)

New BBC Open Forum said...

Maybe Ed Young, the younger, was gearing up to celebrate this.

Disclaimer: I did NOT go looking for anything like this! I was Googling for something totally unrelated when I stumbled upon it.

Ramesh said...

World Toilet Day 08


World Toilet Organization (WTO) stands up for the 3 "WE (s)" in the theme "We Deserve Better".

WE: Toilets deserve better social status. WTO has been striving to elevate the status of toilets to make them status symbols and objects of desire. WTO speaks on behalf of toilets "WE DESERVE BETTER SOCIAL STATUS".
WE: The second WE are the toilet cleaners. WTO aims to professionalize the sanitation and restroom industry and to upgrade the skill sets of the restoom cleaners. WTO speaks on behalf of the toilet cleaners "WE DESERVE BETTER PAY, RESPECT AND PROSPECTS".
WE: WTO speaks on behalf of 2.5 billion toilet-less people, "WE DESERVE BETTER PLACE TO DEFECATE, PROPER TOILET".

JOIN the cause on Facebook: Toilets for the Poor
BLOG about the cause November 19th, and write an article why we all deserve better
PROMOTE the day by putting your instant messenger on Facebook status as: TODAY IS WORLD TOILET DAY
SHARE by "cutting and pasting" in your email to your network. Click here to get full text for sharing with others.
CREATE an event in your school or city. Add your event for World Toilet Day on our website by emailing

Thanks NASS :-)

Junkster said...

gmommy said...
I'm sure Junk will find the humor in this somewhere.

Sorry, I've been married a long time, so I've forgotten anything I might have known about sex, funny or otherwise.

Toilets, however, I am very acquainted with.

watchdog said...

"Sorry, I've been married a long time, so I've forgotten anything I might have known about sex, funny or otherwise."

Oy vey! Don't I know it!

New BBC Open Forum said...

Well, Mrs. Junkster, just judging by your photo (I know, I'm not supposed to do that), I can sort of see why Mr. Junkster would want to forget... a lot of things.

oc said...

My condolences. Being single looks better every day...

just sayin'...

New BBC Open Forum said...

I think Mrs. Junkster might benefit from some of Dr. Bill Loney's services.

watchman said...

Sex for seven days....flying trapeze acts , rock and roll, sensuality, flesh, flesh, flesh...hmmm

lets see

Who do Christians know that the Bible says comes to deceive and to destroy? Is this destroyer also not known for blasphemies and desecrating all that is Holy?

Hell's top rated imps could do no better in bringing defilement to the name of Christianity than these charlatans.

I see unholy, unrepentant, unbridled pride ,arrogance, and a sneering , swaggering desire to be a man used to accelerate unholiness and open defilement....

I ask you ....who needs demons and plainly apparent enemies when the Church has so called leaders who so despise and openly debase what used to be held and treated as Sacred?

Any so called Christian who could approve of such activity...deserves Ed Young and all that comes with that package.

Certain "men" have 'CREPT IN " ...unawares...



oc said...

"I think Mrs. Junkster might benefit from some of Dr. Bill Loney's services."

I don't think a cankle surgery would fix what I just saw.
Just an opinion from one who still has some kind of vision...Stevie Wonder may feel differently...
Sorry Junk.

Lynn said...

I cannot stop myself here....

Was Bob in attendance with his big grin?

Did Young throw a football through a tire?

Did the choir sing "Viva Viagra"?

oc said...

Dang Lynn, yep. you should have stopped yourself...

But if you have hearing loss or vision loss, contact your doctor.
It doesn't matter that you can't see nor hear, just try to see enough to punch in the numbers, and if you manage that, then try to hear what the doc says, since the medication has rendered you sightless and hearing impaired.
But who cares. You have a four hour long ... medical problem to deal with. Good luck.

BkWormGirl said...

As God listens to the cries of His children, and of people around the world this morning:

He hears the cries of those in Asia, who are being executed for believing. Some are being executed for simply trying to know the truth.

In Europe, He hears the cries of people who are being shut out of services and are dying because they are starving or for not receiving medical treatment. Their crime? believing in the Savior, it is not politically correct.

Throughout Asia and Europe, communism is either very well alive or growing strong again, and with communism comes great persecution.

In Australia, pastors are sitting with their families, sermons complete, waiting for the police to come and arrest them for sharing the gospel today in service.

In South America, there are people calling on all of Satan's forces to destroy the Christians who have dared to share the gospel of Christ.

In Africa, parents are dying, children are being raped and murdered, the number of new orphans today will exceed over 100,000.

Around the world, 27 million people will wake up to the reality that they are still a slave to someone.

In Israel, a nation who eternally is being attacked in one way or another. Who feels the end is indeed coming soon.

And in the US of A. People are crying out about a person who dared to put a Bible on a toilet.

Yeah, I can see why God should spend all of His time focusing on us. Or possibly, why He should forget about us completely. There is a reason why the USA is hated around the world.

Ramesh said...

BkWormGirl: I have agreed with lot of your comments in the past. I will have to dis-agree with some of your comments today.

"And in the US of A. People are crying out about a person who dared to put a Bible on a toilet."

It's not so much as putting the Bible on the toilet, as the comments are to the showmanship and the preaching is based on artifacts. But it's OK to question the nature of mis-treating the Bible as if it's worthy to be placed on a toilet in front of the congregation and the world. We are not crying, we are questioning.

"Yeah, I can see why God should spend all of His time focusing on us. Or possibly, why He should forget about us completely. There is a reason why the USA is hated around the world."

Now I can tell you from personal experience, the only reason, why some people in the world hate USA is because of prideful leaders and their bone-headed decisions that impact the rest of the world.

I can also tell you, that LOT of people around the world love the people of USA, because most Americans are humble, simple and peaceful people who wish to share the gospel and love of Our Lord Jesus Christ to the world, without expecting anything in return.

oc said...

Wow. I didn't realize I was "crying". I thought I was reminding you of the blessings God has given us. And how we shouldn't take His blessing and flush it.

If that's "crying", then I will do it until it's a river. And I hope we all can swim.

Just sayin'.

ezekiel said...

"Yeah, I can see why God should spend all of His time focusing on us. Or possibly, why He should forget about us completely. There is a reason why the USA is hated around the world."

Yep, and mostly, I think, it all comes down to the same reason the poor hate the rich here in the states. Covetousness.

Just like the poor here desperately desire to be more wealthy, the rest of the world covets our freedom and our wealth.

If the World really hated us for who we are and what we represent, they wouldn't be sneaking across the borders and doing everything they can to become one of us...

oc said...

We are not hated around the world. I have a son in law whose in the army, on his second tour in Iraq, and he says differently. I tend to believe what he says, not some tv personality. No one here is hearing of the hospitals built, the schools built, the people personally helped. Women freed from torturous situations. Kids able to go to school, instead of having to prostitute themselves for the family. But yeah, America is hated. Hated by who? Mostly by its own ignorant people.

Just sayin'.

oc said...

Heading for church now. Or maybe not. Maybe to a mosque. Maybe a temple. Maybe just watch football. We have that option in this terribly hated country...
Aren't we a nasty lot?

People have fought and died for your options.

gmommy said...

This is my two cents....when we have differences of opinion as we always will...
lets please do it right.

I don't agree with all BWG said but she also had some good points.
We are America....just sayin....

BTW.....the holidays are approaching. A lot of us have a ruff time getting thru holidays without family near (or maybe sometimes WITH family near :)

I know Padroc is struggling with his first Thanksgiving without his loved one.
I hope we can be mindful and supportive of one another :)

oc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
New BBC Open Forum said...

Come on, folks. We can disagree without being disagreeable, okay?

oc said...

People have fought and died.
Got some of those in your family???

gmommy said...


oc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
New BBC Open Forum said...

"People have fought and died.
Got some of those in your family???"

I think we all have several of those in our families, many who fought, and yes, a few who died. And we are all grateful and forever indebted to them.

oc said...

And that was my very point.


oc said...

And there are "Kids" doing men's work over there. Don't forget them. They dodge bullets for you.

BkWormGirl said...

I think the point of my post was missed.

I was simply stating that I feel the need to focus on what is the greater and bigger picture.

Christians, the body of Christ, are called to spread the message of the Gospel. Two) we are to meet the needs of widows and orphans. (I think that the doctrine of caring for the needy is NOT gender specific - therefore we should be caring for the needs of all.)

I think that the USA does more than any other nation for charitable organizations. However, I also believe individuals in this country who give us themselves to those who are in need, do so as a testament to the greatness of this country and to the greatness of their Savior.

I desire for more Christians to quit fighting and squabbling and start loving people. To quit looking at their personal priorities and asking God what HE desires for them to do to change this earth we dwell upon. If Christians were to begin to get involved on the global stage, the impact would be undefinable. With less than 15% of "Evangelicals" helping out with the aids crisis in Africa, and less than 10% helping out with the situation in China - there are a LOT of Christians that need to step up to the global stage and get busy. And the impact potential is out of this world (literally and figuratively!!).

For further clarity - please read it again. A lot of what I have been accused of saying on this blog today is not true.

Ramesh said...

BkWormGirl: Thanks for your comments. I stand corrected.

Junkster said...

Mrs. Junkster,
Please do not let those who are obviosly jealous of your beauty bother you -- you and I both know I am honored to be your husband, and that I was just joking about our sex life. These poor folks would be even more jealous if they knew the truth that for us Pastor Young's suggestion to have sex once a day for a week would be a drastic cut back...

oc said...

Junkster and mrs...
Uh...Rabbit on.

ezekiel said...

Ever think about running for office, Junk?

bowtheknee said...

BWG and others,

I don't think anyone is crying about the toilet thing. I think it is just one more example of where our society is heading. I don't have a problem with a pastor preaching about sex/marriage straight out of the Bible. I don't see a reason to put a toilet on a platform and put a Bible on top of it. This sort of reminds me of so called "performance art" where someone urinates on a cross or something disgusting like that. I guess I just put this in the same category. If Ed Young "Jr." wants to preach on sex, that is certainly his business. I've been watching some of his videos and frankly I think he acts like an idiot. I would not spend five minutes in a church with a guy who acts this way. I have seen some Mark Driscoll videos that make way more sense than this (and don't anyone start yelling at me!!!) but I doubt I would go to his church either. I have spent some time crying about the lack of reverence for God in the churches I have visited since BBC. I think I've already talked about that ad nauseum here. Where there is no reverence for God there is no true worship. We were put here first and foremost to glorify God and worship Him and we can't fully meet anyone's needs here, in Africa, or in China until we get that part of our relationship with Christ straightened out. I've been reading about Samson. He did a lot of things in the "flesh" and we should be honest - so do we. He could have done so much more if he were fully following God. That does not mean he did not do anything. He is mentioned in the Hall of Faith in Hebrews so he was obviously an important judge and we should not simplify his role in any way. He could have done more if he had been truly reverent toward God for those 20 years. We can do a lot more if we are truly reverent toward God.

gmommy said...

The Junkster never disappoints.... and has impeccable timing!!!

Lin said...

If the World really hated us for who we are and what we represent, they wouldn't be sneaking across the borders and doing everything they can to become one of us...

9:31 AM, November 16, 2008

I wish I could remember the link but I read somewhere about the number of applications to enter the US legally is astronomical. That does not include even those who come to study or come in illegally. For being hated, we sure are popular. :o)

Lin said...

".. and also am very concerned by what I read on the comments under Wade's blog posts. ... The comments under one of his posts disturbed me so much that I told my husband I thought the SBC was in much worse shape than we ever thought! And we already thought it was pretty bad."

Agree with you on the comments. It is shocking, isn't it? I don't want to scare you but many of them are written by pastors! Actually, come of the really hateful and arrogant comments are written by SBC pastors!

Lin said...

"This sort of reminds me of so called "performance art" where someone urinates on a cross or something disgusting like that."

That is exactly what it is. I can tell you I sat in many brainstorm meetings for sermon series where all kinds of wacky ideas came up to 'illustrate' a point. Unfortuantly, some of them were carried through.
This process feeds on itself. The audience starts expecting more and more. Then, you don't dare bore them with just expository preaching.

The 'Word' is not enough.

Phillipians4:13 said...

Has anyone heard how the Love Offering went at BBC yesterday?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Steve announced last night they received $572K in cash and $586K in pledges for a total of $1.58 million. Wasn't it typically over $2 million until the last year or two?

Phillipians4:13 said...

Did you mean $1.158 million? They may have rounded that up to $1.2 million.

Yes you are right; I believe last years at $1.6 million was the lowest in many, many years.

If I remember correctly, The Love Offering at BBC for the 15 years or so prior to 2005 typically averaged $2 - $2.5 million. I think there were years when it was even higher than that and there may have been a year when it was a bit lower.

Does anyone else have those figures as well?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Sorry. My typo. Yes, $1.158 million. He did round it up to $1.2 million.

gopher said...

From Bellevues Admin web site
- 2007 Love Offering -
written and certified by David Coombs

(no gossip here)

"Bellevue’s Love Offerings have ranged anywhere from $1.7 million to $3 million. The Love Offering for this year was about $1.7 to $1.8 million. About $50,000 this year has been designated to benevolence offerings. "

gopher said...

This Will Change Daily

Photo Only, Here

Today's Verse
""Woe to the worthless shepherd, who deserts the flock! May the sword strike his arm and his right eye! May his arm be completely withered, his right eye totally blinded!""

— Zechariah 11:17 (NIV)

Thoughts on Today's Verse...

"While we don't like to hear bad news and don't appreciate the pronouncement of judgment on others, there is a time when it is appropriate. Jesus was not only our sacrificial lamb, but he is also our Chief Shepherd. When the earthly shepherds of his sheep do not lead faithfully, he will demand harsh justice. This is a warning to all who lead that they must do so faithfully and tenderly. It is also a comfort to those who have been abused by ungodly leaders -- God will wipe away your tears and he will bring about a righteous justice to those who have abused the stewardship of their pastoral calling."

A Fresh Breeze after Sunday Night's beating from Shepherd Steve Gaines

diningroomtableforsale said...

What happened to the Love Offering that was taken in 2006 for the Prayer Chapel? I thinks I want my money back from Mr. Gaines since he hoodwinked all of us.

The bad thing about this year's love offering being the lowest in 25 years means the Halloween Carnival Steve has held for the past 2 years will be a lot smaller next year.

New BBC Open Forum said...

"What happened to the Love Offering that was taken in 2006 for the Prayer Chapel? I thinks I want my money back from Mr. Gaines since he hoodwinked all of us."

Steve assured everyone that money is still sitting in the bank (hopefully earning interest) and that they may not need a whole new building for a prayer chapel. Surprise! They might only need a "prayer room" in the existing facilities. I hate to say I told you so, but this is the question I asked two years ago. Why, with that huge building sitting virtually empty during most of the week, can't they use the space they already have?

"The bad thing about this year's love offering being the lowest in 25 years means the Halloween Carnival Steve has held for the past 2 years will be a lot smaller next year."

I think you'll see more staff layoffs and other cutbacks behind the scenes long before you'll see Steve cut back on the carnival!

gopher said...

"I think you'll see more staff layoffs and other cutbacks behind the scenes long before you'll see Steve cut back on the carnival!"

The Good News is....

They are going save money on their automobile insurance with GEICO

No, not really but they are hiring a energy consultant $$$ in order to save money on their electric bills.
(rates just went up 20%)

Wow paying money $$$ just to see what lights to turn off.

WishIhadknown said...

Well, these are certainly bizarre times we live in; pornography and obscenity in the pulpit wow. Lin, I have to agree with you, it’s just a form of offensive performance art.
Sure seems like everyone concerned with being “seeker friendly” does not care if they are “believer hostile.”

Amk47, thank you for your gracious invitation but I must decline, even after two years, the pain remains too real and intense. I stand by my comments, but please do not let me in anyway discourage you from discipling others. Seek wisdom, would wisdom spend money on the Vue or pay the salaries of 100 missionaries for a year? I also pray that you will not experience the pain of a job loss like the former staff members at Bellevue are experiencing at a time Bellevue is engaging in such an extravagance.

You can however answer me this, it is a question I posed sometime ago. My 15 year old daughter accepted Christ as Lord and Savior at age 4. She attended Bellevue until we left two years ago. She loves the Lord, dresses appropriately, reads her Bible, attends and serves in the church weekly, knows one day the Lord will provide a husband for her but is not interested in being involved with anyone right now. She is, in short, a decent kid. However, she finds the music and many of the activities which take place in the youth program offensive and hostile to herself and to her worship of Jesus. Where in Bellevue is there a place for a decent kid like my daughter to attend Bible study?

tn_lizzie2000 said...

Five years ago, Mrs. Rachel Greer used to teach in the Ruth Class - a class in the Senior Adults Deptartment where your DD would have fit right in. They actually studied the Bible, though they had about 60 years on your girl!

Where in Bellevue is there a place for a decent kid like my daughter to attend Bible study?

My answer is, "Nowhere, these days."

WishIhadknown said...

Thanks tn lizzie for your reply, but we all already knew Bellevue has no room or patience for traditional believers. We're just "trash" to them. My question is actually more global than just Bellevue. (Actually I do know of several, even our present church is acceptable but she does not want to take a chance on being hurt again.) Also, what does the inability to provide a ready answer say about the state of the church, when a church is "seeker friendly" but hostile to decent young people." Replies?

gmommy said...

Would you be open to another denomination?????

Many of the good girls who were very serious about Bible study and their relationship with the Lord in my daughter's age group got away from BBC when they went to college. They were tired of the baby food in the youth department back then BEFORE the smoke machines.

The very thing I was taught to fear at BBC about Presbyterians (and that a certain nut goes beyond extreme about) are nothing in reality like you are used to hearing the Baptist discuss.
Even my rebel child is coming around a small Presbyterian church...after being completely hurt and turned off and angry about what he saw happen at BBC.
Just a suggestion.

For me...unless or until the SBC power brokers who are corrupting the seminaries, not holding ministers accountable, (they set themselves up in authority in all other areas of the SBC) and begin to get back to the Bible and away from their own self importance... have some major heart changes....Baptists just aren't an option for me.
That's just me....and my kids.

gmommy said...

BTW....neither of Coombs' daughters were married at BBC....both left the denomination long before he was "ordained". (the older 2)

watchman said...

Paul Proctor from News with Views weighs in on the corrupt Churches that now have been conditioned to accept such things as Ed Youngs' offenses and increasingly unacceptable practices taught by culturally relevant clowns instead of "Men of God" in the pulpits.

The link is HERE

WishIhadknown said...

Thanks gmommy for your reply, your comments as always are right on. Some of my best fellowship is with Presbyterians as well as others from other denominations. The things that separate us are not nearly as important as the One who unites us. I also believe in the professions of the Apostles ’ Creed “I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church, the communion of saints…..” Just wish they would point out the grape juice when they are also serving real wine at communion. That one was a surprise. LOL
Actually was hoping to hear the arguments for making our churches hostile to young people like my daughter in the name of?
Sadly the powers that be are far too willing to sacrifice our young people to the influence of drug abuse and premarital sex which has resulted in a number of pregnancies in the name of trying to appeal to the cool kids or whatever. I’m kind of bewildered about what their reasoning is.
Returning to our current topic, I do not believe any of us need demonstrations or coaching from the pulpit because, let’s face it, most of us know what we are doing. The number one inhibitor to intimacy is (men) negative of poor communications between spouses. Now that is the subject to preach on! Guess we should be thankful he was on stage with his wife and not his girlfriend.

oc said...

Wishihadknown said,

"Guess we should be thankful he was on stage with his wife and not his girlfriend."

That's the next sermon series. Comin' to a pulpit near you. Just be patient...and some homosexual "tolerance" will if it hasn't already happened.

Did you ever in your life think it would get this sick? That Sodom and Gomorrah would be thrust right into your face?

It's been oozing for a long time. But now all Hell is about to break loose.

He told us so. He said it would happen. So stick to your guns brothers and sisters. The Lord and His Word.

Just sayin'.

oc said...

And no, to be clear, I am certainly NOT against marital sex. In fact, I'm all for that. But I am against preaching and advertising that which from the pulpit which most certainly should be adressed in private marital counseling, if indeed a problem exists in that area.

Although sex within marriage is a wonderful thing, I think even some joys should not be trumpeted from the pulpit. Let the Lord of them be the Lord of them. Some things, even those given by the Lord, need no encouragement and praise publically. They are private, and meant for the couple to rejoice in. Not meant for public consumption.

Just sayin'.

WishIhadknown said...

Amen and Amen

tn_lizzie2000 said...

On a (hopefully) completely different note:

A Tale of Three Secretaries

ACK!! My Word Verification is "antomies" - I read an "a" in there the first time I looked!

New BBC Open Forum said...

Your link.

oc said...

You know what? We've spent a lot of time praying for the world. I think instead we should have spent that time praying for ourselves.
While concentrating on how "bad" the world is, we lost our way, lost our focus on Jesus, and in doing so we became like the world. The result is that we are now looking way too much like the world.

Will He know the difference when He comes back to get us?

Just sayin'.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Bellevue LO♥ES Memphis so much this year they aren't giving tickets to anyone. Depending on how far from the stage or how far to the side you sit, tickets all cost $3, $6, or $12 this year.

I'll repeat what I said last year because it's still timely...

"This isn't something new to BBC. I've always said that no church should ever charge people to come to their Christmas and Easter programs. If a church can't afford the program without selling tickets, then cut back on the size of the program! It's as if all the mega churches have to one-up each other with their elaborate sets, special lighting, corny 'acting,' Broadway dancing, flying angels, live animals, tallest SCT, etc. The music usually ends up suffering with most of the emphasis being on 'the show.'"

solomon said...

Just FYI, there's a post on my blog (accessible through my profile) that some folks might be interested in.


gmommy said...

How did you find out about John Mark???....I can't find it in the paper???? Here or Al??
Was he in touch with the child his wife was carrying when his other child died??
That's very very sad.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Book-signing with Bro. Steve and

Bro. Steve will be signing copies of When God Comes to Church and Donna will be signing copies of There’s Gotta Be More at the Lifeway store across from Wolfchase Galleria on Saturday, November 29, from 11:00 a.m.-1:00 p.m.

gmommy said...

I don't think I will be attending.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Singing Christmas Tree Ticketing Changes

This year, tickets are required for admission to the Singing Christmas Tree. If you do not have a ticket when you come to the presentation, you will need to go to the Events Registration Center to obtain one. Non-ticket holders will not be allowed to fill empty seats when the presentation begins. Don’t take a chance on seats being available. Purchase your reserved seat tickets today at or at the Events Registration Center. Ticket prices are $3, $6, and $12.

This should make guests feel LO♥ED.

watchman said...

12 dollars ..hmmm

For 12 dollars...thats a lot of money to come to Church and hear a tree load of Christians sing...

For all that money...they ought to be able to get some top flight entertainers as well.

Maybe they can book Ed Young for a very special late night seminar ....that would certainly put the Ho Ho Ho back in Memphis.

Merchandising Christianity is prophecied, and just as promised is here in full bloom.

BkWormGirl said...

Merchandising the church is not new. The cost of sending kids or teens to camp (which seems to be an eternal state of registration) is very overwhelming (200 bucks for 4/5 days is pretty cheap in today's church economy). And to the single parents (or married couples going through tough times) who are barely able to put food on the table, the church costs are debilitating. Add to that the women's banquets, evening Teas, men's retreats, etc, the cost is always more than what it should be to attend church. So, that is not a "shock" to me. (Still disappoints me - but I am not shocked by it.)

What surprised me is the "empty seats will not be filled by non-ticket holders." (Sorry I don't remember the exact wording and I am too lazy to look it up today.)

Let's remember back a couple of years. Remember the story of the single mom with two girls, who was homeless, had a car and was driving from Texas to family in Kentucky maybe. Her car broke down somewhere near the crosses, and she walked into BBC on the night of the performance. They of course let her in, she was saved, as was one of her daughters I think. They gave her food, got her a hotel for the night, got her car fixed, and gave her money for the road. This year, no such story will we hear. Because she won't be let in.

What is our world coming to when churches won't even present the gospel without charging for it? How does anyone come up with such an idea and NO one stands up to tell them they are a fool? Scary!!

New BBC Open Forum said...

"What surprised me is the 'empty seats will not be filled by non-ticket holders.' (Sorry I don't remember the exact wording and I am too lazy to look it up today.)"

Just look two comments above yours.

"If you do not have a ticket when you come to the presentation, you will need to go to the Events Registration Center to obtain one. Non-ticket holders will not be allowed to fill empty seats when the presentation begins."

I have a feeling they're going to have a LOT of empty seats this year, but hey, at least they'll know they've gotten money out of the people who do attend. And how much you wanna bet Steve will pass the plate at the end of every performance. He does need to ditch the sweaters though. Very unflattering.

oc said...

Are his sweaters made of wool?

New BBC Open Forum said...

I believe so...

all2jesus said...

NASS said:
Singing Christmas Tree Ticketing Changes

This year, tickets are required for admission to the Singing Christmas Tree.

Do they even read their own copy?

"A chill is in the air."

They may be surprised at just how chilly it gets.

The whole intent of the SCT was to present the gospel to people who might otherwise never hear it. Bellevue is now charging for the gospel, but school board officials can use the facility gratis to promote the godless agenda of the NEA. Simply incredible.

oc said...

Fleecing all the sheep.
Fleecing all the sheep.
He will come rejoicing
Fleecing all the sheep.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Let me guess... sung to the tune of Bringing in the Sheaves, a hymn no one under 40 has likely ever heard.

all2jesus said...

Complimentary (free) tickets will not be available. Tickets are now available at three price levels: $3, $6, and $12 instead of $10 across the board as in the past. While there are no complimentary seats, there are seats at a much lower price point than in years past.

This is simply dishonest. In the past, sponsor's tickets were $10 and were for premium seats reserved for that purpose, not "across the board." Bellevue even announced at the performance that ushers would be working to keep sponsor seats reserved for ticket holders. The remainder were open once the performance began.

oc said...

Bingo! Oh wait...Baptists don't play bingo. We sell the Gospel instead...

all2jesus said...

Let me guess... sung to the tune of Bringing in the Sheaves, a hymn no one under 40 has likely ever heard.

Hey, if you watch Turner Classic Movies, you'll hear it in any scene in a church. But I love that old hymn, it's based on one of my favorite psalms.

New BBC Open Forum said...

I heard it on an old episode of The Andy Griffith Show recently. I can't remember the last time I heard it in church.

bowtheknee said...

The other thing to note about the SCT tickets is that ANYONE could come before the performance and stand in line a get a FREE sponsor ticket. I turned in unused sponsor tickets every year and I know many others did as well. I also stood in line one year to get a ticket because I had seen it once and had given all my other tickets away and I wanted to see it again. Apparently they won't let anyone fill in empty seats (and I have a feeling there will be lots of those) or stand in line to get a ticket that someone has turned in. This is just ridiculous. Churches want to operate like businesses rather than serving the Lord. I think we need to get back to the latter.

bowtheknee said...

I'm thinking of writing a book called When God doesn't "show up." Will ya'll come to my humble book signing???

It may be that God doesn't "show up" when the SCT becomes strictly a show with JESUS missing.

Junkster said...

Listen to this: Sound of Majesty

oc said...

Just think if it was two thousand years ago, the angel of Bellevue might say...

"Hark! Behold, a Child is born...

Seating for the event will be done in 3 tiers (for Magi only): Gold, Frankincense, and Myrr levels are offered. Tickets available at 3 prices: 3 denarii, 6 denarri, and premium manger level seating at 12 denarii.

And lo, to the shepherds tending their flocks by night, just stay out there. Don't bother. For behold, there shall be no complimentary tickets for thee nor those like thee."

Yea and verily, a chill is in the air...

Ramesh said...

Life is never dull at SBC.

I am including excerpts related to BBC.

Here are portions of the letter David Miller wrote to Jerry Vines after the John 3:16 conference:

"By the way, you said nothing in your sermon that I could not say amen to, as a 5 point Calvinist. Your sermon did inspire me to write new lyrics to an old song.

"Old Jerry Vines had him a conference E-I-E-I O , and at the conference he had a "pas" E-I-E-I-O, with a pas, pas,here and a pas, pas, there; here a pas, there a pas, everywhere a pas, pas, old Jerry Vines had him a conference E-I-E-I-O."
Furthermore, don't blame the Calvinists for all the church splits. Was it the Calvinists that split Bellevue after Adrian died? Hardly! Is there any empirical evidence that there is a higher percentage of church splits caused by Calvinists than the other brethren? Not on your life! There is enough stupidity to go around. Calvinists do not have a monopoly on pastoral stupidity."

I am providing a link to a comment I made in fbcjax watchdog post, and this will branch out to ALL the links.
Thy Peace said ...

gopher said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
gopher said...

Steve Gaines will be gone this Sunday and Joe Jernigan will be filling in. Wonder what event the leadership will surprised the congregation with this time.

bowtheknee said...

There is enough stupidity to go around. Calvinists do not have a monopoly on pastoral stupidity."

Well now, THIS is a classic quote. There are many wonderful pastors out there in very small nondescript churches and I do not mean any disrespect to them whatsoever but there does seem to be quite a lot of pastoral stupidity out there. Thanks Thy Peace.

Happy Thanksgiving to all. Let's all take some time out the next few days to be thankful for all God has blessed us with this year and throughout our lives. I am thankful for this blog and the friendships I have made. We are not a perfect group of people but in some small way we may have made a contribution over the past 2 years and several months. Thanks NASS for all you do.

Junkster said...

Non-ticket holders will not be allowed to fill empty seats when the presentation begins. Don’t take a chance on seats being available.

Do they expect anybody to believe that all seats will be sold?

They just want people to pay or stay home. Evangelistic outreach is an afterthought, if given much thought at all. If the cost of putting on the event is too much for the regular budget, it would be better to: (1) increase the budget to match the costs, or (b) cut back on the costs to match the budget, or (3-ish) tell members that they have to pay so visitors can attend for free.

But it isn't really about doing what makes sense ... it is about money, power, and the relationship between the two. Seems it always comes back to that.

Word Veriication: enana. That's lke a high-tech gmommy. :)

oc said...

And how sly, and how slick is the devil? Isn't it just like him to direct our attention towards Calvin and Arminius, and away from Jesus?

Just sayin'.

oc said...

Yep, that's it Junkster.
Or maybe something like 4(b)ish. Pastor takes a pay cut. Half a million bucks cut loose would mean a lot of unsaved people would have access to tickets to hear the Gospel at Bellevue Baptist Church.
If that's really what the purpose is.
What a concept.

Junkster said...

And I suspect that both brother Calvin and brother Arminius would hate that some followers of the Lord they both followed follow either one of them more than Him.

Junkster said...

oc said...
Pastor takes a pay cut.

Haaaahaaaaaahaaaaaaaaha! Good one, bro! I'll be holding my breath for that!

Junkster said...

I don't have anything new to post right now. I am just taking the opportunity to voice my displeasure with blogger upon coming to this page and seeing it insult me with the Word Verification of "fatio". Humph!

gmommy said...

High tech gmommy :)

Hey everyone!!!!
I wish you all a Happy Thanksgiving...and hope everyone has someone to be with!!!

I am thankful for the very real friendships we have developed here and for the special friends I have not met yet love :)

I'm going to a home for dinner where the family has an open door to all manner of families, singles, a few strays, old and young....just like a big crazy family.
I'm very grateful they have been inviting me the last few years.
LOve to you all!!!

and junk...mine is porkstr!!!!!

oc said...

Happy Thanksgiving friends!

concernedSBCer said...

Hi Friends!

I have started a new job and to say it's been an adjustment would be an understatement. Therefore.....I'm behind in my reading!

First of all.....Joshua: thank you for one of the heartiest laughs I've had in a VERY long time! Lay ministry...ROTFL

IMHO....toilets shouldn't be in a sanctuary being preached from.

Also IMHO......the whole bed thing was not honoring to God. Read Ecclesiastes..."to everything there is a season, and A TIME for every purpose under the Heaven." That WAS NOT the time, or the place.

I work in a small room with 5 other people, 4 of whom are here with their green cards. THEY WANT TO BE HERE. They love their homeland, but they have chosen to be in America because of the freedoms, the economy, the opportunities we have here. According to comedian (Christian, and fabulous) Brad Stein, more people want in than out.....therefore, America is a GOOD country.

SBC....we're off base.

A good Sunday School for a sweet won't be specific to the denomination; it will be specific to the church. It's never easy, is it?

I love you all!!! Happy Thanksgiving!

Ramesh said...

Dr. Sheri Klouda has written a letter to fbcjax watchdog readers here:

FBC JAX WATCHDOG: The Klouda Family: "What We are Thankful For"

oc said...

Beds and toilets on parade in a "Christian" worship service...

There IS some kind of "service" going on there, but it is in no way befitting the worship to be presented as acceptable service before the Holy, Almighty God. Yet it seems many accept this sickness as some kind of service to Him.

But just think how closely that kind of "worship" resembles the worship services we have heard about performed in satanic services, which of course we abhor and would deny any relationship and categorically so. Yet even so, that kind of sick sensationalism is not only allowed in churches today, it's now been applauded and encouraged, because it's done using Jesus' name. That which before was exceedingly disgusting and deplorable is now applauded by the well-meaning and biblically ignorant, and might I be as bold to say, as it pertains to God; the relationally challenged. I have a hard time believing that those who know God even superficially would ever consent to chucking the Bible on a toilet for the world to see.

Yet it's done slowly, like the frog in the boiling pot, just lessen God's majesty a little at a time, lessen His Holiness a little at a time, and slowly make ourselves and our wants and our goals equal to His by lowering Him, adjusting Him, using Him for our own purposes, in the name of our own self-esteem, and little by little, raise the temperature of "self", and that's how we make ourselves god of our own little universe, and how we make Him equal, or less, and then further of no consequence.

He tells us to die to ourselves, and to live for Christ.
That is the key to life. But it seems we don't believe that anymore. We instead deny His life, and live for and glorify our puny own.
We are denying the life God gave us by exalting ourselves, and we are killing ourselves in the process, but not in honor of Christ. Not dying to sin and living to Christ, but killing ourselves with self. Spiritual suicide. We are dying IN our own sin, nor TO our sin, and we are just stupid enough to do it when we count our desires so important to our own reasoning and so let the pursuit of that very thing become the motivation and justification for life. We give it all to that end, and the end result is spiritual suicide.

That's not what He meant when He told us to die. He told us to die to sin and to ourselves, not to die to Him. When we place His word, His revelation, His love letter to us, on the toilet, we have told Him exactly what we think of Him and His message. We have told Him that we don't know Him, and we don't really care to. We have told Him we don't want life, we instead desire death. And what we deserve from the message we send to Him, I hope we never receive.

Be sure there will be a day of reckoning. Even those who belong to Him will give an account of what we did in the body. God help us.

oc said...

And as far as this country is concerned?

It certainly is not perfect. But people are LITERALLY DYING to get here. That means something.

Just sayin'.

oc said...

PPS. Ed Young. Bed time.

Some things are not our business. Go right on ahead and have marital conjugations on you own time. Enjoy it, rock on, but please don't include me into your bedroom.

And I too will give you some grace...I won't include you in to my living room after a Mexican dinner. Some things are not to be shared.

Just sayin'.
oc. :)

Junkster said...

oc said...
And I too will give you some grace...I won't include you in to my living room after a Mexican dinner. Some things are not to be shared.

Like that thought?


P.S. Word Verification: spamopan ... Mmmmmm mmmmm!

Junkster said...

SInce everyone is in such a Thanksgiving-y mood, I want to share this special moment of reflection and gratitude with you all.

oc said...

No bro. For real. Did you really do that on purpose? That was rank.

Shoot bro. My apartment after a mexican dinner will never match that. Like I said, some things are not to be shared.

Anthony said...


you were right...I was cannot teach an unregenerate dog new tricks

Anthony Johnson

--couldn't remember my old password, so no more 'ace'

New BBC Open Forum said...

We could have told you that.

BTW, I like "Anthony" much better. :-)

oc said...

Hey Anthony,
The dog thinks he knows everything, so refuses to learn.
So why should he listen, even to the Master?

Lin said...

Steven Curtis Chapman honors Bush by writing a song for him

oc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
gmommy said...

Do we have to be crude?

oc said...

OK, no.

Junkster said...

I don't have a clue that OC and Anthony are talking about. But I do know this.

gmommy said...

LOL.....and Junk...what are YOU talking about??
Is this a secret message to..... Jennifer????? :)

gmommy said...

Welcome back, Anthony.

Junkster said...

I'm just trying out my skills at Rickrolling.

gmommy said...

Continuing to LOL, Junk.....
and what the heck is going on with your latest blog post?????
(thanks for the laughs!!)

gmommy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lynn said...

Uh Oh! Junkster just tried to rickroll us lol.

Seriously.....Rickrolling is so yesterday lol.

Junkster said...

I knew that if anyone here knew what Rickrolling is, it would be Lynn. Most of us are too old to have a clue.

Junkster said...

gmommy said...
Continuing to LOL, Junk.....
and what the heck is going on with your latest blog post?????

Nothing, of course.

New BBC Open Forum said...

I suppose we should be thankful "oc" didn't quote selected passages from the Song of Solomon or Genesis 38. At least those might have been more on topic with this thread.

Actually, somewhat on topic... some nutty fundie Baptist "preacher" actually devoted a whole "sermon" to that verse.

The video.

Selected commentary:

Here, here, and here.

oc said...

Yeah, it was just something I heard in the Bible.

I didn't invent it myself.

oc said...

So if the word "pisseth" offendeth you, don't read the KJ version.

I don't.

gmommy said...

I'm just embarrassed.
On some of those links, they are blaming this crude language in the pulpit on the minister being independent Baptist.
The cussing preacher we saw a few weeks ago was SBC...right????

That type of ignorant thinking (real men hit the wall) sounds exactly like something Page Patterson would say.
After all, he thinks everyone should OWN a woman

The twisted theology and ridiculous ranting that goes on in the pulpits today is so stupid.

People are so determined to follow "pastor" and hang on to a church life that stopped being about the Bible a long time ago that they have given up their brains.

Is it any wonder that Christians have very little credibility anymore?
If that weren't enough....dignity is dead. Self control and dignity was once a hallmark of a gentleman.
And we wonder why many of the younger generation chose to vote in a way that seems unwise to those older.
How wise do Christians behave these days?????
Shoot... perversion is blessed from the pulpit! Ministers lie in front of congregations with the expertise of an actor.
There are no standards or qualifications to live up to anymore.

It's all a game..and not a funny one. Somebody like Wade Bureleson called a liberal.
Sorry y'all....I am disgusted.

oc said...

As if being "on topic" makes any difference. Never has been an issue before, except today I guess.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Nah, it's not an issue. I gave up on that notion a long, long time ago. :-)

Junkster said...

Blogs where people are required to stay on topic are boring. Here's proof.

oc said...

I already knew that. Or I would never have been able to be comfortable enough to express my ADD self here. :)

oc said...

Both you and Rick need to give it up. I really don't think he's good for you. :)

New BBC Open Forum said...

That sermon clip was courtesy of Pastor Steven Anderson of Faithful Word Baptist Church in Tempe, AZ.

I have to applaud their emphasis on soul-winning. (A better term, I think, would be "witnessing" since one cannot "win" souls.) Beyond that, they seem to be quite fanatical.

Scanning the sermon topics (they're all online) reveals these titles:

Purge Out the Liberals

The New King James Version

Calvinism Creeping In

The Role of Women in the Church [silent, subservient, and pregnant, no doubt]

Planned Barrenhood [or "Have All the Children Nature Will Allow"]

Why the Police Should Not Exist

The Virtuous Woman [see above]

The Sin of Onan

Beware of the Evil Trees [huh?]

Why Bible College is Unscriptural

Circumcision [do I sense an obsession with a certain body part?]

Clothing Standards

Pottage and Popsicles

Animal Worship

Don't Go Back to School

Speaking in Tongues [for or against?]

Right and Wrong Music

Why Billy Graham will go to Hell [whoa!]

Build a Wall [sorry, couldn't resist that one]

The Sin of Day Care

Be Fruitful and Multiply [see above]


Biblical Tithing

The NIV's Attack on Jesus

Women's Roles in Society [see above]

The Length of your Hair

The Devil's Music

The Seven Sins of IVF (in vitro fertilization)

The Mother Whore

The Hoax of Good Friday


Preaching the entire book of Hebrews from Memory [bet that was riveting]

Cleanliness and Sanitation

Then there are "essays." Here are just a couple...

Christian Contemporary Music

You may be surprised at just what he considers acceptable music and what isn't. Let's just say music like the Gaithers sing is considered "wrong music" as is "pop, rap, country, rock, jazz, classical, and easy listening." Or anything newer than 50 years old.

What's Wrong with Male Gynecologists?

I bet if his wife, who recently gave birth to their fifth child (only their first wasn't born at home), suffered complications during one of these home births and had to be rushed to the hospital, that they'd both welcome the assistance of the obstetrician on call -- even if he did happen to be male. At least I hope they would.

gmommy said...

Actually Rick seems to bring a smile even to the cynical :)

New BBC Open Forum said...

"Rickrolling"? Does that have anything to do with The Purpose Driven Life?

New BBC Open Forum said...

"That type of ignorant thinking (real men hit the wall) sounds exactly like something Page Patterson would say."

... or Dorothy Patterson.

gmommy said...

I feel so sorry for the people who go to that church. Especially the little kids who will grow up having that junk crammed into their heads.
Not only am I never going to be a Baptist again....I may have to move North.

gmommy said...

"Because of years and years of looking at and touching scores of women inappropriately, the male gynecologist no doubt has a seared conscience and a perverted mind (I will not go into detail of what goes on in the doctor’s office for decency’s sake, but any woman who has been there knows what I am referring to.).
His view of women and the marital bed has certainly been warped by his indecent involvement with countless women."

Wow... ignorance is REALLY dangerous. Wonder what excuse all the predator ministers have?????

I thought I left all this stuff behind 30 years ago.
People....especially some Baptists ministers... sure seem to be going backwards.

TN Lizzie said...

Lin, I'm gonna post your link again. It's MUCH better than Junkster's links!

Steven Curtis Chapman honors Bush by writing a song for him: Good Bye, Mr. President

concernedSBCer said...

I watched "The Nativity Story" last night with my family. If you haven't seen it, DO. You will not regret it. Anyway, reading these last 15 or so posts made me think of Joseph. We don't know much about Joseph because he was not the focus. (Chew on that one, PP) He took care of Mary with a selfless personal sacrifice: he left his family, his town, his job and willingly gave up his reputation. He apparently maintained his high moral character as the earthly father of Jesus. We need men like Joseph. Men who love, protect, and provide for their wives and family without all the chest-beating macho attitudes.

PP has it wrong, and he's leading an entire seminary down the wrong road.

bowtheknee said...

This article on Contemporary Christian music is interesting. Even the people who write all these articles can't agree on what music is "of the Father" and what is "of the world." He cites the Battle Hymn of the Republic as being a wonderful song but another book or article I have read says that song should NEVER be used in church because it was written by someone who apparently was not a Christian. I love that song and love to sing it in church. It all comes down to a reverence issue with me. If we are irreverent at church, we are just spinning our wheels. If you can reverently use a song written by a wayward "southern Baptist" who believes in Lordship Salvation rather than salvation by grace through faith, then do it. BTW, is the Lordship Salvation comment some kind of slap in the face to those who aren't full fledged Calvinists? I have no idea what that means and I've been a SB for life.

New BBC Open Forum said...

"BTW, is the Lordship Salvation comment some kind of slap in the face to those who aren't full fledged Calvinists?"

I don't think so. From their "Doctrine" page...

"We reject the teaching of Calvinism and believe that God wants everyone to be saved."

Lynn said...

Ya know...this Stephen Anderson idiot reminds me of another famous pastor......FRED PHELPS.

Junkster said...

From the article on Contemporary Christian music:
The Bible reads in Colossians 3:16, “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.” God tells us here that those who sing to us are teaching us.

Uh oh! Now it won't be long before someone says that women can't sing as part of a public worship service because that would be teaching the men who are present.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Not sure he's in Fred Phelps' league, but there is a disturbing resemblance.

New BBC Open Forum said...


Don't laugh. Sadly, I'm sure there are already churches where that's the rule. Paige Patterson just hasn't thought of it -- yet.

gmommy said...

Junk...what is the answer to BTK's question??? I don't know the difference either????

gmommy said...

BTW...Jim W was picky about who wrote the songs.....he wouldn't allow me sing what I thought was a beautiful song (and still do) one time because of who wrote it. I knew nothing about the author but JW did.

Junkster said...

I don't understand the thinking of Steven Anderson or his church. But I know he is mistaken if he thinks that Southern Baptists all believe in "Lordship Salvation". And he is also mistaken if he thinks that those who believe in Lordship salvation do not beieve in salvation by grace through faith.

Lordship salvation is a term used to refer to the teaching that it is not possible for a person to accept Jesus as Savior without also accepting Him as Lord. They believe that repentance and faith are both necessary for salvation. Many who teach this doctrine (such as John MacArthur) tend to be Calvinistic, but not all are.

The other side of the debate is sometimes called "Faith Only Salvation". Those who hold this view teach that the only condition for salvation is faith (belief in Jesus as Savior). They believe that repentance and submission to Christ's Lordship are works that follow salvation, and, as such, cannot be a part of salvation, because salvation is not of works, but of faith. Those who teach this doctrine (such as Warren Wersbe) tend not to be 5 point Calvinists, but some are.

Those who hold the "faith only" view often call their teaching "Free Grace salvation", and they claim that those who hold to Lordship Salvation do not truly believe in salvation by grace. But those who hold to Lordship salvation counter that they do believe that salvation is a free gift of God's grace; they believe that by grace God gives both faith (trust in Jesus as Savior) and repentance (the desire and power to submit to Christ as Lord).

That's my short summary. But keep in mind it is from my memory of books by folks on both sides of the debate that I read 10-15 years ago. So if anyone reading this knows of some way I have misstated either side, I hope they will correct me.

gmommy said...

With this splitting hairs from the ones considered in the know, the redneck preacher making a sermon out of hitting the wall,... the PPs and SGs turning a blind eye to clergy sexual abuse, and "others" claiming the spirit guides them to behave like a rabid there any wonder why younger people are turning away from what they've been taught or looking for a "religious" community that at least resembles the good Samaritan or Jesus??????

With all the glorious things that could be learned from the Bible...the churches have come to a really sad place in our culture today.
I'm almost as confused as those outside the church.

ezekiel said...


Adding my 2 cents to what Junk said.....

At the root of the arguments surrounding "Lordship Salvation" is the debate surrounding "easy believism" in my opinion.

Some will argue that repentance and submission to the LORD is not a requirement for salvation or even a condition of salvation. In other words, according to these false teachers, one doesn't have to repent and serve Christ to be saved. Not only that, but the same teachers often will go so far as saying that repentance (walking in newness of life, Romans 6) and serving Christ are not even a result of salvation.
They will tell you that works or fruit are optional not mandatory. This is in direct contradiction to most of the Bible, including Titus 1:16.

Luke 6:46 is a good answer for them as well. The hair they are splitting is an important one. Rev 2 tells us that works and repentance are important.

gmommy said...

I see Ez...I can't imagine believing one can be saved without repentance and submission.

I still don't think Christians are sharing their beliefs in a respectful and humble manner.

Thanks for your input!!!

gmommy said...

Thy Peace,
Way to back me up on the other blog. Thank you.

ezekiel said...

Act 2:36 Therefore let the whole house of Israel recognize beyond all doubt and acknowledge assuredly that God has made Him both Lord and Christ (the Messiah)--this Jesus Whom you crucified.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this they were stung (cut) to the heart, and they said to Peter and the rest of the apostles (special messengers), Brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 And Peter answered them, Repent (change your views and purpose to accept the will of God in your inner selves instead of rejecting it) and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of and release from your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise [of the Holy Spirit] is to and for you and your children, and to and for all that are far away, [even] to and for as many as the Lord our God invites and bids to come to Himself. [Isa. 57:19; Joel 2:32.]
Act 2:40 And [Peter] solemnly and earnestly witnessed (testified) and admonished (exhorted) with much more continuous speaking and warned (reproved, advised, encouraged) them, saying, Be saved from this crooked (perverse, wicked, unjust) generation.
Act 2:41 Therefore those who accepted and welcomed his message were baptized, and there were added that day about 3,000 souls.
Act 2:42 And they steadfastly persevered, devoting themselves constantly to the instruction and fellowship of the apostles, to the breaking of bread [including the Lord's Supper] and prayers.
Act 2:43 And a sense of awe (reverential fear) came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were performed through the apostles (the special messengers).
Act 2:44 And all who believed (who adhered to and trusted in and relied on Jesus Christ) were united and [together] they had everything in common;
Act 2:45 And they sold their possessions (both their landed property and their movable goods) and distributed the price among all, according as any had need.
Act 2:46 And day after day they regularly assembled in the temple with united purpose, and in their homes they broke bread [including the Lord's Supper]. They partook of their food with gladness and simplicity and generous hearts,
Act 2:47 Constantly praising God and being in favor and goodwill with all the people; and the Lord kept adding [to their number] daily those who were being saved [from spiritual death].

Peter says "repent and be baptised".

Today, we see baptism without repentance, without awe or reverential fear. The fact is, baptism has become the only thing practiced then followed up by the doctrine of "once saved always saved". The world is full of folks that have been baptised but have not repented and have no evidence of the Holy Spirit directing their lives. They have their "ticket".

Jud 1:5 Now I want to remind you, though you were fully informed once for all, that though the Lord [at one time] delivered a people out of the land of Egypt, He subsequently destroyed those [of them] who did not believe [who refused to adhere to, trust in, and rely upon Him].

I am saying that History is full of folks that claimed special favor of the Lord and that refused to repent. They had their ticket too...

I am saying that the end of those that refuse to "adhere to, trust in, and rely upon Him" won't be any different than theirs was. No matter how many times they are dipped in the tank, observe communion or any other ordinances or practice of religion.

Jud 1:4 For certain men have crept in stealthily [gaining entrance secretly by a side door]. Their doom was predicted long ago, ungodly (impious, profane) persons who pervert the grace (the spiritual blessing and favor) of our God into lawlessness and wantonness and immorality, and disown and deny our sole Master and Lord, Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).

It says Master and Lord. The new heart that He gives us desires to please The Master and The Lord. Those that would deny Him are doomed to destruction.

1Jn 2:1 MY LITTLE children, I write you these things so that you may not violate God's law and sin. But if anyone should sin, we have an Advocate (One Who will intercede for us) with the Father--[it is] Jesus Christ [the all] righteous [upright, just, Who conforms to the Father's will in every purpose, thought, and action].
1Jn 2:2 And He [that same Jesus Himself] is the propitiation (the atoning sacrifice) for our sins, and not for ours alone but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And this is how we may discern [daily, by experience] that we are coming to know Him [to perceive, recognize, understand, and become better acquainted with Him]: if we keep (bear in mind, observe, practice) His teachings (precepts, commandments).
1Jn 2:4 Whoever says, I know Him [I perceive, recognize, understand, and am acquainted with Him] but fails to keep and obey His commandments (teachings) is a liar, and the Truth [of the Gospel] is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But he who keeps (treasures) His Word [who bears in mind His precepts, who observes His message in its entirety], truly in him has the love of and for God been perfected (completed, reached maturity). By this we may perceive (know, recognize, and be sure) that we are in Him:
1Jn 2:6 Whoever says he abides in Him ought [as a personal debt] to walk and conduct himself in the same way in which He walked and conducted Himself.

ezekiel said...

Nope. I think what I have said is pretty clear and quoted the scripture to go with it. For whatever it is worth, I don't intend to get drawn into one of your defense of calvinism rants either.

We both know there is nothing we can do to merit salvation. On the other hand we both know that if truly saved, we will know Christ both as Lord and as Savior. Meaning that the gift of salvation continues to mold and shape us into the image of His Son. To claim that He is our Savior and then refuse to repent is the very same exact error that Israel was broken off for. I think we should spend some time trying to avoid that error. See Romans 11

If that is not clear enough, don't know how to make it any clearer.

New BBC Open Forum said...


Your attempts at civil discourse are admirable, but just so you know, any comments by that person which happen to slip through occasionally will be deleted without a trace, so any responses by others will be left forever dangling in cyberspace. The best response to these "droppings" is, IMHO, no response.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Thy Peace,

Are you hanging around here tonight? If so, would you mind e-mailing me? (Address in my profile.) Thanks!

bowtheknee said...

Thanks NASS, Ezekiel, and Junk for your responses. This has cleared up a lot for me. I know which page I'm on. That pastor seems to be missing a few marbles. Or maybe a whole host of them.

bowtheknee said...

People who picket military funerals should be shot. Just sayin'......

ezekiel said...


No problem, totally understand.:)

New BBC Open Forum said...

Thanks, EZ. Your comments needed no context.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Official verification of the law regarding recording a conversation in TN:

You can legally record any conversation in which you're a party without the permission of the other party. You cannot legally record a conversation between others in which you're not a participant without the permission of at least one of the participating parties.

Just came across that information and was reminded of the time Josh Manning recorded his conversation with David Coombs regarding BBC's compliance (or non-compliance as it were) with state law regarding TN non-profit corporations (of which BBC is one). Josh was fully compliant with TN law when he recorded their conversation.

Richard Emerson was compliant with the law when he recorded his conversations with Mark Dougharty concerning BBC's bylaws. (There are five audio links on that page. Dougharty says if another church asks about BBC's bylaws, "we just tell them we don't have any.")

Mark Sharpe and Richard Emerson were within the law when they recorded their conversation with Steve Gaines. Not sure I would have wanted to make that one public, but they did legally record it.

gmommy said...

My comment about the recording is this.....
They were within the law yet specifically Josh Manning was crucified by some people I know who needed an excuse not to point the finger at the leadership
YET....when I spoke to the deacon officer at the time about why SOMEONE in leadership didn't report PW's confession...he responded WITH A GRIN that because the victim was now over 18 they did not have to be compliant with the law to report sexual abuse.

The leadership didn't mind just scraping under the radar. However they rejoiced in pointing out what anyone else did to hold them accountable.

Just like they saw nothing wrong in breaking the rules of the neighborhood association and law about trespassing (I still can't see those particular men besides SG doing such a thing).

It's just like politics.
The ones yelling about family values are cheating on their wives and whatever else they can GET BY WITH.

Not very biblical or Christ like at all. But then....they are just guidelines!!!!

New BBC Open Forum said...

"YET....when I spoke to the deacon officer at the time about why SOMEONE in leadership didn't report PW's confession...he responded WITH A GRIN that because the victim was now over 18 they did not have to be compliant with the law to report sexual abuse."

This is no excuse. The obligation is to report it. How many child molesters prey on only one victim... or begin and end with their own children? If he's "cured," why won't the now-grown victim in this case allow him around his own children unsupervised? The only possible answer is he thinks his father is still a threat to children, something Steve Gaines and the other "ministers" who knew but kept quiet don't seem to understand or care about. I pray there were no other victims, but statistically the likelihood of that is small. If there were other victims of Paul Williams, I pray they find the strength to contact the authorities. (Hint: The "authorities" are NOT the staff of BBC.)

bowtheknee said...

I met a lurker today who said she reads the blog every day. I just wanted to say "hi" and it was nice to meet you and your husband!

This might be a good time to remember that many are still reading. We should make sure our comments and attitudes toward each other are pleasing to God. Sometimes it is easy to read into comments things that have not been said.

gopher said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
gopher said...

Bellevue Baptist is needing your help and donations for:

1) Buying Tickets for the Singing Tree $3 $6 $12 (plenty of ticket left - see web site)

2) Donate items to sell to folks in Frayser (Bellevue Thrift Ministry, operating like Goodwill Industries, new outlets coming?)

3) Buy items from Bed Bath & Beyond (Bellevue is now registered with them) in a effort to make the Bellevue Missionary homes
"even more comfortable for our missionary guests" ( one of which is being used by the Grant Gaines family)

4) Who says:
"I believe God's purpose for taking me to Honduras was to take me out of the Material World and SEE the 'REST' of the world"

Find this and more in the Light & Truth now out this week.

Dr. Bill Loney said...

One time, during the ex-Ms. Loney # 2 era, she got on one of them amorous kicks kinda like this preacher feller after readin some of them Harloten romance novels. After a couple'a days of gettin loved up unvoluntarily, I called the deputies on her...gotter charged with cruel and unusual punishment.

And one more come all these 50-somethin' tv preachers is tryin' to look like theys in boy bands? What happened to gold-buckled leisure suits and shiny pleather shoes? you know, real church-goin' clothes.

William T. Loney, MD

New BBC Open Forum said...

Hi, doc! Long time, no see.

Dr. Bill Loney said...

yeah, I know...back on Loney Mountain...gettin over thanksgiving and trying to get slicked up...I'm on the prowl for the next ex-Ms. Loney.

Gotta couple of potentials too... Vern Simpson's widow don't live but a 'bout 20 minutes thru the woods...she lost her legs up to the knees in a tragic alligator-garfish incident last summer in Lake Loney...luckily shes got a 4 wheel drive rascal, so she can recipricate my courtin' visits.
And there's also Preacher Sikes' sister, Juanita...she aint much to look at, but she still has a few teeth left, so that kinda scoots her up to the front of the line. And the mail-lady hardly curses at me any more when she passes by and throws my mail outta her jeep, so I'm readin' twixt the lines there too. So many women, so lil' Loney.


oc said...

Ah doc, you are such a hopeless romantic...

oc said...

And Doctor Loney,

By way of complaint. You haven't been around here for quite a while since
you have been covorting around the globe enjoying exotic places like the China hill country. (I never knew any Chinese hillbillies,
but just because people don't have teeth and plumbing doesn't mean they are your friends and relatives, no matter where they live).

Anyway, I noticed you show up when you are the "lonely" Loney.
You showed up this time when you heard the "s" word, so now you come here hunting for the next Mrs. Loney. (And the "s" word ain't Sasquatch, by the way.)

Just an observation, doc.

Just sayin'.

bowtheknee said...

They still wear the pleather shoes only this time they are lime green. I saw them in the CRIBS video that Jr. did.

Unvoluntarily? Now that's a new one on me.....sounds like you are having your share of troubles this holiday season.

Peace Loney.

oc said...

Yeah BTK. That's what I say. "Involuntarily" ?
My vestigial tail.

Just sayin'.

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