Wade Burleson, on his blog, Grace and Truth to You, wrote this article entitled Church Authority: What It Is And What It Is Not in which he reprints this article, Authority in the Local Church, from his father Paul Burleson's blog.In response, Chuck Andrews wrote this article, Authority, Leadership, & Relationships.
Wade Burleson also wrote this article, Are We Southern Baptists Becoming a Benign Cult? The Danger of Casually Dismissing Scripture When Defining 'True' Christianity.
How do these ideas relate to the abuse of "church authority" being witnessed in churches today? Are we seeing this type of abuse of authority in Bellevue Baptist Church? Please cite specific examples.
Mac Brunson, pastor of FBC Jacksonville, Florida, recently modified their church's bylaws to include a church disciplinary committee.Dr. Adrian Rogers did something similar at Bellevue over ten years ago with the formation of a Church Displinary Council except that it's not a part of the bylaws. As we know, these are the bylaws of BBC, written in 1929, and for the most part they are ignored by the church administration. Here are the bylaws transcribed.
Has the Church Disciplinary Council ever been utilized since its formation?
Thanks to "junkster" for this topic idea.
672 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 601 – 672 of 672Burkas and shorts. What a concept.
Don't get me goin'.
Just sayin'
oc.
lin..
ACTUALLY
Not only do I have a sense of humor,
I even floss after meals, and occasionally, I EVEN allow the wife to use some of my used floss afterward as well.... If she behaves.
Juss sayin....
Speaking of girls and shorts:
My great grandmother, who had obtained a 50 year perfect attendance pin prior to her death, was a member of Tuckers Crossing Baptist Church in Tuckers Crossing, Mississippi. On Sunday afternoon, we would go and visit her and we were NOT allowed to wear shorts...
Now, PUHLEEZE, she lived in a small house out in the country where NO ONE could ever see us, but nevertheless, we had to wear dresses.
Of course, it was ok if my brother wore them.
"Of course, it was ok if my brother wore them."
Dresses?
lin..
ACTUALLY
Not only do I have a sense of humor,
I even floss after meals, and occasionally, I EVEN allow the wife to use some of my used floss afterward as well.... If she behaves.
Juss sayin....
oc says:
Please. We sure don't want to know ALL the implications of that statement.
As the teenagers used to say, "oooh, gag me with a spoon".
Just sayin'.
PS. In this instance, I hope she misbehaves horribly.
oc.
"Of course, it was ok if my brother wore them."
Dresses?
oc says:
Tucker's Crossing is named that for a reason...
Just sayin'. And makin' stuff up...
oc.
Watchman,
You are freaking me out...you even added the "juss sayin"!!!!
I want some chill pills too!!!
Speaking of baptists and misbehaving horribly.
MISBEHAVING HORRIBLY IN BAPTIST LAND
LOLOL!!!
OK, just to clarify...
My brother didn't wear a dress, he, being male, was allowed to wear shorts out to Grandmaw Josey's house at Tucker's Crossin!!!
Oh, come on SOTL.
We was havin' a good time of makin' fun of cross dressin' in Tucker's Crossin'.
Sure glad your brother decided his legs were too ugly. Isn't that what you said???
:)
Just sayin'.
oc.
Guess it's a matter of interpretation.
Just sayin'.
oc. :)
So "that" is the real story behind the downfall of
"Tucker's crossing".
And now.. you know the REST of the story.
SOTL,
There it is again.
Your BROTHER got to be comfortable and wear shorts in the heat but the girls had to wear dresses.....
wonder why??? why were boys allowed to show legs...and be comfortable??
Watching....
funny robot picture!!!!!
Oh. So male knees are okay but female knees are "sinful"? Believe me, I've seen plenty of male knees, and for the most part, they ain't things of beauty. For that matter, neither are female knees. I once heard old men's knees (anyone over 30 I think) compared to hubcaps on a '39 Chevy pickup. (Think about it.) And hairy men in tank tops, shorts, and flip-flops? Eeek! Don't get me started! A great deal of skin we're seeing today, whether it's covering a male or female should be... covered... IMO.
NASS said:
And hairy men in tank tops, shorts, and flip-flops? Eeek! Don't get me started! A great deal of skin we're seeing today, whether it's covering a male or female should be... covered... IMO.
oc says:
And hairy women. I thought that's what the "burka" discussion was about. What do I know.
Just sayin'. :)
oc.
"And hairy men in tank tops,
We call those 'wife beaters'.
Tank tops? burkhas ? quite a choice...
One Baptist recently started a new clothing trend with a familiar slogan.
40 days of ???
oc,
Ever see a woman who looked like she was wearing a fur vest... but she wasn't? But who knows what lurks under those burkas?
Ahhh... Banlon. (If you have to ask what it was, you probably don't want to know.) Always hated it. Along with the ummm... undergarments... that gave women that... er... exaggerated shape. Always reminded me of party hats.
I can't believe we're having this discussion.
NASS said:
oc,
Ever see a woman who looked like she was wearing a fur vest... but she wasn't? But who knows what lurks under those burkas?
oc says:
Oh, and I thought Watchman's floss comment was enough to gag a maggot. Thanks for the nightmares NASS.
I'm starting to have at least some appreciation for burkas now.
Just sayin'.
oc.
When I received an e-mail today about Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama's membership in what was described as a "racist" church, I thought surely this was just another one of those "taken out of context" hyped-up things, so I immediately went to snopes.com to check it out. Well, apparently it's even worse than the e-mail I received describes it.
Read for yourself here, here, and here.
This is the "Black Value System" which is described on the church's website.
NASS, from one of the articles you provided:
As for Israel, “The Israelis have illegally occupied Palestinian territories for over 40 years now,” Wright has said. “Divestment has now hit the table again as a strategy to wake the business community and wake up Americans concerning the injustice and the racism under which the Palestinians have lived because of Zionism.”
That goes with what I have heard and read that he is not Christian at all...but Muslim.
Which is why he will not salute the flag, nor put his hand over his heart during the pledge of allegiance. His allegiance is only to Allah, the Arabic moon god, and will certainly not salute the flag of "the great satan". So how can he serve us well as president?
Having said that...oh boy...I can't even believe I am saying this...Hillary looks like the better choice.
I am now cutting my tongue out, and sending it to St.Paul. That's where you are, right NASS? Keep it on ice for me, maybe it can be spliced back in if a miracle happens...look for a manila envelope labeled..."the one who shall never speaketh in tongues"...
Just sayin'. Or not sayin'.
oc.
New BBC Open Forum said...
Oh. So male knees are okay but female knees are "sinful"? Believe me, I've seen plenty of male knees, and for the most part, they ain't things of beauty. For that matter, neither are female knees. I once heard old men's knees (anyone over 30 I think) compared to hubcaps on a '39 Chevy pickup. (Think about it.) And hairy men in tank tops, shorts, and flip-flops? Eeek! Don't get me started! A great deal of skin we're seeing today, whether it's covering a male or female should be... covered... IMO.
4:31 PM, January 11, 2008
Ya'll don't want to show up at the Wednesday Night Mens bowling league I bowl in. There is such a guy who wears tanktops and has a natural sweater of bodyhair. Bothers the daylights out of me. I mean, I'm a hairy guy and I got more sense than that!
Lin said...
I hvae a big head
Am I the only one tempted to comment on this??
Ezekiel
Thanks for clarifying. I think I understand where your disagreement lies now. Can't say thay I fully agree, but I appreciate you taking time to explain.
Lin,
You're right, no TULIP in the Bible -- just the Rose of Sharon and the Lily of the Valley. :)
No I wasn't raised with the doctrines of grace or any other doctrine -- I was as they say "unchurched" until I was saved at age 19. I embraced that viewpoint during later studies.
junk wrote:
Lin said...
I hvae a big head
junk: Am I the only one tempted to comment on this??
Reply: She misspelled "have."
There. I commented.
I think I know exactly where Ez is coming from. Too many have taken Grace and made it into a license for sin ignoring that the God of the OT, is the same God today and looks upon our sin the same way.
Junk, I will never understand how all those 'pinheads' out there are so smart. :o)
Junkster said:
Lin said...
I hvae a big head
Am I the only one tempted to comment on this??
oc says:
No. But I am really trying hard to keep a New Year's resolution...
Be kind to big headed people in silky blue burkas...
just sayin'.
oc.
oc, you are a wise man.
-Big Burqua
Lin,
Maybe you don't really have a big head, maybe it's just that big blonde hair.
Junk,
Lin is not from Texas OR a past beauty queen....no big hair.
aka Big Burka,
Exactly the point. I am still working out the ceremonial law and where we find it (there are lampstands in Rev) and I thought we had abandoned the system of sacrifice but maybe not (Romans 12:1)
but the moral...2 commandments or 10 what ever you wish are obvious, so we can say that part of the Law is still in effect.
Then we get to civil...working through that, I wonder if any civil law they had then, can't be found in either local, state or federal law today...that is what our system of justice is based on isn't it?
Then we always have this....
Luke 16: 15 And he said to them, You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God. 16 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it. 17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void.
And
1 Tim 1:8 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 in accordance with the glorious gospel of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.
Still pondering...as they say, shallow enough for a child to wade in...
Maybe you don't really have a big head, maybe it's just that big blonde hair.
9:42 PM, January 12, 2008
Junk, you forgot to put 'natural' before 'big'...wait...my hair is NOT big. The 80's are over, friend. Didn't you get the memo? Still wearing those gold chains, are you?
"Then we get to civil...working through that, I wonder if any civil law they had then, can't be found in either local, state or federal law today...that is what our system of justice is based on isn't it?"
Ironic, isn't it, when you think that a real Christian community would not need civil laws. Because the Holy Spirit changed our hearts when we were saved.
Think about this: PW would have been stoned to death under the law in Israel. Somehow Christendom manages to make a mockery of our own secular civil law which is the only 'ruler' we are to obey! (if they do not go against scripture) Not to mention scriptural guidelines for an elder in the NT.
Lin,
What I'm not able to process is that the ministers and SBC leadership don't seem to know the difference in a lie and a truth anymore.
It's not only like the politicians but like a very unhealthy, dysfunctional family ....or maybe what therapists call compartmentalization.
Reminds me of when there was a motion on the floor
(at the bogus business meeting)
concerning the elders we didn't know we had not... having conflicts of interests.....
meaning they were making money off BBC.
DC stood up in front of the whole church and said that to vote against that would be like voting against motherhood or the American flag.
Yet there are many money ties between them and BBC and he knew that ......and the youth director being confronted by a student on lies of ommission and he says he is a man of integrity????
or PP's response to Snap.?????
I just didn't think I would have to deal with this in the church.....the world is hard enough to figure out!!!!!
I was told the other day that just because PW sodomized his son, that did not make him a pedaphile. I wish I had been quick enough to ask just exactly what it DID make him.
" WEll, it happened so long ago,and he only did it once,and he only had one victim"...
This was the mantra...
Let's dissect that:
" It happened so long ago"...
SOOO, because it happened so long ago, it doesn't count? That child's soul was not forever damaged? ANYONE who has ever been sexually assaulted knows that was a totally ignorant and insensitive statement.
" He only did it once"
Oh REALLY? And how do we know this? Even the report acknowledged that it happened more than once.. AND what if it HAD only happened once? If this person telling me this were only raped once, would it be ok with HER?
" He only had that one victim"
OH PUHLLLLEEEEEZZZZEEEEE and we know this HOWWWWW??? Because no one else has come forward? It takes a lot of courage to come forward with this information...and sometimes, people NEVER tell...The average pedaphile has how many victims? It's over 100, I know that much.
Additionally, the son was blamed for "holding it in all those years and just now decided to go the leadership of the church" The insenuation was that he had a hidden agenda, where Steve Gaines was, of course, the victim.
All of thise was bad enough, but then she went on to state emphatically that Dr. R. HAD TO HAVE KNOWN ABOUT IT....
You know..when someone impunes the character of a man with a spotless character, but who cannot defend himself, it says a lot about the character of the person doing the impuning, doesn't it?
May God have mercy on the people who are perpetuating these lies.
SOTL,
You and I KNOW there was not one victim....and that even one is too many.
PW using the minister's office to feed his perverted inclinations seems unimportant to many.
Women like myself are certainly of no importance since a child was not important to the leadership of BBC or the SBC.
I have said many times on this blog...with NO response...that PW asked me to bring my son into his office so he could "help" me...
I never ever asked PW for his help with my son ...but I seemed an easy mark for this sick man.
My daughter helped me see that when people say the PW issue isn't a big deal to them.....
they mean it's not important enough for them to make any changes in their lives...too easy to pretend it's no big deal so they can continue their little bubble lives.
I will say this loud and clear....
if PW is hired at any church in this area...I WILL be present to protest and inform the members that he is a sick and dangerous predator.
As it is, PW has been visable at the children's BB games at the church mentioned on our blog before.
If he can stalk those children...nothing keeping me from being present to keep an eye on him and inform the uninformed.
gmommy,
Call me, you can count on me to go with you.
When I told this woman that SG just brushed it under the rug and sent PW right back to his job where he counseled women who had been sexually abused, she had no response. When I told her that he had said vile and vulgar things to the women that he " counseled", she had no response.
I made myself shut up before I got into the story about David Combs having my file.
I was talking to a brick wall.
gmommy,
When we go to inform these people, we will have to take the "report" with us.
SOTL.
Good idea...and I am sure we can get guidance from Christa. I know your heart well enough to know that it would be worth being arrested if we are able to protect the innocent that SG, DC, and all the other ministers at BBC don't care about.
I hear the Sr pastor at the church in Sommerville has been hitting the same ol....forgive and forget twisted scripture sermons...probably borrowed the outlines from SG.
I don't think we would have any problems getting a group together but even if we stand alone....we've done that for years....so what????
I just wanted to comment for a moment on the situation with PW, more specifically with the way people respond to this mess.
I know that most if not all of you do not know me. So I am going to ask you to bear with me so that you hear what I am trying to say, and not just with what it could sound like I am saying.
I wish that the entire PW thing (and I used that world only because I can't come up with an intelligent and clean word to use in this case) would just go away. I wish there was some magical garbage disposal unit that all the negativity and pain and trauma this mess has caused could just be dumped into and it all be gone.
However, I am not quite so naive as to believe anything like that will ever happen. The problem with PW is not just his actions both in the past and in the present, but I think the greater problem is the way supposed Christians have defended him and his bouncer - SG. I know that some people will take offense with my next statement. But, the truth is that anyone who is not screaming from the rooftops that this guy (PW) needs to be held accountable is in fact wounding people and damaging the Kingdom of God. I also know that this blog is not on the quiet side about PW... so I realize I am preaching to the choir as it where.
What I don't understand is why no one is speaking out. I remember Dr. Spradlin saying it was unacceptable. And if I recall correctly Michael Regan said it was despicable. But no other Christian leaders can stand up and denounce this? I am not just talking about Baptist leaders - but the fact that they are saying nothing speaks volumes.
Why would any abuse victim ever believe that those who call themselves Christians find this despicable? Why should abuse victims believe that any church is a place of refuge? Why would any victim believe that God cares about them? Christians, the supposed arms and body of Christ, don't care about them, in fact the body of Christ is blaming them for making this a public matter. It seems the message I am hearing from the majority of "Christians" is go crawl in cave and wither away, you have no place in our world.
It's a tragic time in the world...
That's my dose of doom and gloom for the day.
bkwormgirl,
You ask questions and make some observations that many of us have agonized over for a long time. Thank you for your sensitivity in this area.
I have no answers... but it is a very sad time for the church today.
I can no longer go to an SBC church...or any big church where programs, numbers and "stars" are important to anything.
Christa Brown is a good source for some of your questions.
It has devestated my life drastically. It has cost me ...but my church of 25 years advertises to replace those of us who have had to leave out of conviction.
How are you, bkworm girl??? Have you found a church????
bkwormgrl,
WEll said, my friend.
I will never understand how supposedly Christians can just shrug their shoulders..and not consider this to be an issue.
When they do that, they are telling me that my abuse was no big deal, either. The trauma and horror I suffered as a child is just no big deal. The trauma and horror that others suffered, including CW, is no big deal. It's the apathy that is so hurtful to those of us that know betrayal up close and personal.
Actually, non Christians have been kinder to me about all this than so called Christians.
It's true what they say: IF it weren't for Christians, there would be more Christians.
That is one of the reasons it sickens me how those on another blog tell Cakes he can't understand their whatever...because he is not a Christian.
I'll take Cakes in my corner than alot of the professing Christians I have met ...or those that sit in the special chairs for the elders we didn't know we had.
Gmommy -
I have read Christa's site and blog. And she does answer the questions on a technical level (no insult to her in any way) but I just feel the church is failing so miserably. The few Christians who are doing right just don't compensate for the masses that are messing it up.
I do attend a church. I am not sure the joy of church attendance has returned, in fact I know it hasn't. Sometimes I have a good day and a glimmer of hope. And then I meet with another one of these people who just wishes abuse victims would die and shut up - and I wonder why. The church will always harbor those people more than they will ever defend those who need the care of the church most.
Good night gmommy.
SOTL-
I one time had a professor (a Christian university) when we were talking about this very thing, said that he felt that there would be "the average Christian in the pew" who would one day stand before God and be held accountable according to Matthew 18:6/Luke 17:2 because so many trauma victims are psychologically children with regard to the pain of betrayal that is instantly retraumatized and that old wound is reopened when these issues rise up. And when church members turn on abuse victims, his interpretation was it was better for them to take a some milestone and throw it around their neck and jump in the lake.
I was willing to make that a church training video. And even offered a list of the top ten people that we could use for a visual example of this principal, but he passed on my offer.
Night.... no really, any minute soon I am going to go to bed...
There have been some questions on tithing lately and I want to share what I have read this morning.
Nehemiah 5
“5:3There were also those who said, We are mortgaging our fields, our vineyards, and our houses to get grain because of the famine.”
Now the references that go with this verse are:
mortgaged.
Ge 47:15-25, Le 25:35-39, De 15:7,
because.
Mal 3:8-11
When you check each reference you find the famous “robbing God” statement in Malachi that preachers love to quote...OUT OF CONTEXT. The actual context is provided in Nehemiah 5. They were rebuilding the temple and the nobles and officials of the JEWS were exacting taxes and percentages of money.
Nehemiah’s response to that.....
”5:11Return to them this very day their fields, their vineyards, their olive orchards, and their houses, and the percentage of money, grain, wine, and oil that you have been exacting from them. 12 Then they said, We will restore these and [[ch. 10:31]] require nothing from them. We will do as you say. And I called the priests and [Ezra 10:5] made them swear [[Jer. 34:8, 9]] to do as they had promised.”
So the context of Malachi 3:8-11 is that of nobles and officials (priests) receiving the tithes and exacting taxes while the workers that were actually building the temple starved, mortgaged their houses and went without.
About the worst thing you can do is turn your back on that neighbor in need, the widow and the orphan, the poor and needy and pay your tax in the offering plate.....
By the way...the references are from Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge (TSK). You can google it for online copies.
It is odd that none of my hard copy bibles contained these references....
bkwormgirl,
You ask the right questions. The answers are simple but few want to believe that. They want to make it complicated so they can keep from upsetting their ordered world at church. They also have had many years of brainwashing about what constitutes a 'church leader'. They follow men not Christ. In a nutshell, they believe the pastor and do not know scripture.
Bottom line is that those who are not appalled and actually hold the perps accountable are not the Body of Christ at all. They are 'playing' pretend church.
In OT law, PW would have been stoned to death...today, he should be in jail. He should not have been on staff at BBC, one minute after his confession to Gaines.
1 Corinthians gives us very clear instructions on what to do. 1 timothy gives us further instructions that PW is not qualified for any ministry. All of these were ignored by those who should know better. It was 'explained' away using the standard lines of cheap grace.
But, this is not reserved for just BBC. This is going on all over. Christa records these on her blog.
If you track these stories they all have the same theme. Men covering for other men. They don't want to 'ruin' their lives over it, make them bankrupt, or hurt 'their' families. So, they ignore it or deal with it privately in their own way instead of scripture.
Oh, they will all tell you the perp repented and all is well. And we are to accept that and go on. If we don't, we are bitter, hateful and mean. But those who accept this fake repentence, are flouting civil law which is also sin. How do I know it is fake repentance? Unless the perp has repented publicly to the Body and stepped down from ministry, it is fake.
Who would have thought that victims would receive more compassion and justice from the secular world than the church?
And yes, you are right that those just sitting in the pews should be shouting from the rooftops. Why aren't they? Because they are an audience being entertained...playing church...not the Body of Christ.
They are fooling themselves but they are not fooling God.
bkwormgirl: I don't have answers, but I constantly ponder the same questions as you. And you have phrased those questions so well that I just want to repost them:
"I think the greater problem is the way supposed Christians have defended him and his bouncer - SG.... No other Christian leaders can stand up and denounce this? ... The fact that they are saying nothing speaks volumes....
Why would any abuse victim ever believe that those who call themselves Christians find this despicable? Why should abuse victims believe that any church is a place of refuge? Why would any victim believe that God cares about them? Christians, the supposed arms and body of Christ, don't care about them, in fact the body of Christ is blaming them for making this a public matter. It seems the message I am hearing from the majority of "Christians" is go crawl in cave and wither away, you have no place in our world."
Wow, Thanks, Ez.
So, that verse about robbing God is really about the temple. We are really robbing God when we ignore the need around us in the Body.
But we love our fancy big buildings with highly paid staffers better.
Lin,
Yes, the Malachi reference is actually an indictment of the authorities and nobles that were taking advantage of the people for their own gain. The money and stuff they collected was not spent on the temple but on themselves. They were the ones robbing God. Not the people.
Sound familiar?
ez,
You may want to rethink your context, because those verses in Malachi...are given as "thus sayeth the LORD". It's God himself who is charging them of robbing him isn't it? And He levels the charge at the whole nation, not just the priests. Read Mal 3:1-10 in the context of "thus sayeth the LORD", and I think you'll come to a different conclusion. Whether you believe tithing is just OT or not is not what is at issue in the presentation of your Nehemiah context. The meaning of "robbing God" in the Malachi passage has to be seen in the context of who is speaking (God), what is being said (His charges, v7-8) , and who it is being spoken to (the whole nation).
bkworm and gmommy..
I want you both to know that your words last night in explaining this have touched me in a way that has never happened before.
You both made it to where I can identify and point to the reason all of this continues to upset me, even though I have moved to another church.
Changing churches does not erase the fact that there are Christians in churches that just wish that we shouldcrawl in a cave. They are supposed to love us. Yet, they would rather stick with a man who was willing to help a sick pervert keep his perversion a secret, thus putting him in a position to prey on others.
No doubt, they would not want THEIR child preyed upon, but since he didn't prey on THEIR child, it's all good. And those of us who have been the prey, it's just
" shut up and go away, don't upset our perfect little world where we all get dressed up on sundays and put on our party manners and let us pretend that this sort of thing does not happen"
I suppose that this is when we need to fall at the feet of Jesus.
As Dr. R. would say, " I'm gonna tell Jesus on them".
Six states currently have the death penalty for child rape, with Louisiana trying to become the 7th state. Yet, SG and his followers were far more concerned with PROTECTING a man who could be put to death in some states, rather than to hold him accountable.
The very fact that these states have the death penalty for child rape indicates that IT IS WRONG FOR ADULTS TO SEXUALLY ABUSE CHILDREN. Yet, at BBC...you would think it's ok, as long as 1) you only have one victim ( ha!) 2) it happened a long time ago and 3) it only happened once ( ha!)
One can only wonder if they would be chanting this mantra if THEIR OWN CHILD had been raped by some pervert. Surely, they, too, would be screaming for the death penalty.
But since it wasn't their child, it's FAR more important for them to support their pastor, than to demand justice for or to even recognize that there are hundreds, if not thousands,of victims left in the wake of the cavalier attitude of not only the power mongers at BBC, but of the people in the pews.
Gmommy's wise young daughter put it eloquently:
"they mean it's not important enough for them to make any changes in their lives...too easy to pretend it's no big deal so they can continue their little bubble lives."
These so-called Christians snarl at us,mock us,and then criticize us when we seek love and understanding outside the Christian faith. The legislators in 6, almost 7 states have been more a friend to abuse victims than any Christian who currently defends the actions of SG by not demanding accountability.
When they say, " oh, I did not approve of the way that SG handled the PW situation, the question to ask them is this:
" What did you do to demand accountability"?" What did you do to protest his actions?" " What did you do in defense of the child that was sodomized?"
More importantly, what will you say to Jesus when he asks you these questions?
I'll tell you what several thousands former bbc members did:
They saturated the place with their absence.
Their entire defense of their behavior is this:
DO NOT FORCE US TO ACCEPT THAT A MAN THAT PRETENDED TO BE A MINISTER OF PRAYER WAS ACTUALLY A SEXUAL PERVERT. THIS WOULD DISTURB OUR PERFECT LITTLE WORLD, AND CAUSE ME TO LOSE FAITH.
So those of use who are screaming from the rooftops are told to shut up and go away, so that they do not have to face the truth.
No wonder we sometimes feel we would be better off putting a millstone around our neck and jumping into a lake.
I have been out of pocket for a while, so today I starting reading to catch up. I have to admit that I became sick to my stomach while reading the PW chronicles...I continue to be repulsed by the facts of this situation. Makes me want to scream and shake these people until they "get it", but unfortunately, they have allowed satan and Steve Gaines to blind them to reality, which is truth, God's truth. Perhaps the Lord will rectify it soon, perhaps He will allow them to wallow in their sins a while longer, perhaps He will never dispense justice in this life, but rest assured, justice WILL be dispensed according to His Holy Word...in His time.
Rick Warren endorses book that calls those who oppose Rick Warrens PURPOSE DRIVEN PROGRAM..."
' LEADERS FROM HELL "
YET MORE LOVE AND COMPASSION FROM MR. SADDLEBACK
As I read through comments this afternoon, I was saddened yet again. And yet, I was also affirmed in a way. By the time the PW news came out, I had already left BBC. The abuse I suffered as a child at the hands of my pastor, that to this day haunts me, was hundreds of miles away from here. Yet, I was devastated. A response which puzzled me.
Short of the response of others on this board, and my therapist (who is a devout Christian - the real kind) no one who knows me in RL understands why this mess has been so traumatic for me.
Prior to this mess, I always told myself it was just because of the type of church I attended. Or that it was what part of the country I lived in? Or maybe that my because my abuser went on the mission field shortly thereafter maybe he really wasn't so bad? Or maybe I was not believable? Or whatever the desperate belief was at that moment.
Until this happened at BBC. And the pain it caused me was as intense as it was twenty years ago. It was then that I realized that betrayal is betrayal no matter where it happens and when it happens, it still hurts. Knowing that churches still don't care, is painful.
I often wish I could just go away like they wish. It would make life easier that way. I have recently started to pray and ask God how I can reach out to those who feel the church has turned on them or rejected them. Abuse of any kind often puts a person's belief in God in jeopardy. Coupled with the church response - the future is dismal. I think it is easy for those who have been deeply wounded to feel as though they are the lone voice of reason crying in the wilderness. It is understandable why so many of us are angry.
So how do we move on? Do we go to other churches? Sure, that's an option (and not a bad one) - but I wonder about all the churches who did nothing when BBC was in peril, will they to do nothing when they find out this was in their back yard? How do we as Christians stand and say what happened there was WRONG, and yet not get into a scenario where we are bashing a church? How do we reach out to those in the world around us who are hurting, with any measure of assurance that by bringing them to a church we are not bringing them into harm's way?
I like to ask questions can you tell?? lol. Sorry, if I "talk" to much, you all can tell me to be quiet... and I will be.
Bkwormgirl,
I relate and stand with you...but that's all I can do. I don't have any answers.
Have you been reading the blog for long?
What made you leave BBC before the PW issue???? I guess you are not young as in your 20's if your abuse happened 20 years ago.
The stuff at BBC has caused me to rethink alot of things.
It makes me sick that I dug my heels in and would not be run away from my church...first,when I became no longer married...
then when I had my encounter of the sick kind with PW and was blown off by all the people I told.
I probably would not have done the research on the SBC and become aware of all that I know now had I left a long time ago.
I may have had real role models for my son instead of the appearance of Christian men I had from BBC.
Lots of "what ifs".
But you are right...
betrayal is betrayal....it pulls those old scabs off and we bleed all over again. And when our blood gets near other people that haven't been humbled by suffering...well, they just don't like it.
So you know what????
We clean our wounds when we are able and then they become our banner of courage.
What can we lose by speaking the truth and confronting evil when others shrink and hide behind self righteousness, lies, oaths or excuses?
We didn't die or give up when we could have....so we live...and we never settle for counterfeit or superficial again.
AOG,
As I read it, Mal 3:10 is consistent with my earlier post. If you look at Mal 1 and 2 the message of God is given to the priests. 1:6,2:1 Unlike today...the message was passed through the priests to the people.
If we think about what Nehemiah is saying, we see that the nobles, (5:7) are collecting money from the people and keeping it. They were Jews, (5:1).Who was passing along money to the widows, orphans and poor? The people are so poor they can't help people in need either. In this way they as a nation are robbing God. The whole purpose of the tithe was to provide for the needy, poor, widows orphans....those unable to provide for themselves.
Think of it this way. If I give to the church to the point that I have nothing left over, I can't help my neighbor in need and the church won't help him either. (Sound familiar)? In this case the hand giving to the priests and the hand taking from the people is just as guilty. Neither are following the law. They were both robbing God. His tithes and offerings were intended to supply the fatherless, the poor and widows...and Levites. Both the giver and the taker in this case knew that these folks were not being taken care of...
Deut 26:12 When you have finished paying all the tithe of your produce in the third year, which is the year of tithing, giving it to the Levite, the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow, so that they may eat within your towns and be filled,
Something else interesting is that there should have been no famine. If we look back at Ezra 7:11ff we see that King Artaxerxes, the king of Persia granted all kinds of supplies and provisions including wheat and oil, and even all the gold in Babylon...Told the provincial governors not to collect taxes from the temple servants, nobles and priests. They were also instructed to give them anything they needed from the royal treasury.
Why was there a famine? Who had the money? The Persian Gov wasn't collecting taxes (Ezra 7:24). The only folks collecting money were the folks that shouldn't have needed it. Nehemiah made them give it back.
Look at what we do today. The US government doesn't collect taxes from churches, the nobles and officials are collecting the money, the people are paying it and the fatherless, the widows and sojourners among us still starve...
We are just as guilty as the officials and nobles...we are giving it to them. We call it "undesignated giving"...that way, we can tell the needy we encounter every day that..."I give to the church" sorry....
The overflowing love and compassion continues at BBC...
Apparently, it is now okay for the preschool ministry to fire paid workers if they don't sign up for a certain number of functions every month.
Instead of hiring more workers (since they ARE part-time and there is no issue of benefits or medical), which of course would be the logical thing to do, BBC authorities want to run off the ones they DO have.
And what if they have a medical condition or have suffered thru cancer in the past? Oh, well. Apparently a doctors note isn't good enough for Bellevue preschool teachers anymore.
about the minister recently in the news...
Also, I have been told to watch Channel 12 news tonight at 11 p.m. for an interview with Paige Patterson and more on this arrest. Watch this interview with an open mind and heart. I have communicated with him and he has shed some new light on all of this. You and I may have a new perspective as this all comes to light.
It's all coming together, keep praying.
Hi Everyone!!!! I was without internet (but that's okay ;) this time!) because I just got back from Florida!!!!
I'm trying to catch up but I want GMommy and SOTL and Cakes and Christa and all those here who have been abused to know that you remain in my prayers.
Love you all.
It is true the SBC is too much of a good ole boy network. But before I get into it let me say I am still a SBC’er.
Forget all the stalling with the pedophile SBC ministers. It seems the SBC is starved for “big name” ministers. They seem to want preachers that can draw them in; regardless of the price. Let me give you one example from right here in the Memphis area.
Does anyone remember Steve Flockhart? He was the pastor out at Second Baptist in Millington which changed their name to Crosspointe Baptist Church. Guess who is his mentor? It is none other than Johnny Hunt. Seems that Steve got saved around 1985 and shortly (1986) thereafter without ANY formal education, Hunt ordained him to the ministry. Flockhart was a great speaker and could draw folks in. Sound familiar?
The leaders of the SBC treated him as the next great one. They over looked his money problems he had at the church in Georgia. Hunt even tried to cover for him there. Well after several years in Millington Flockhart gets a call to Palm Beach FBC, a church much like Bellevue. Flockhart could not out run his money problems from Georgia when they ended up suing him. And then the truth about his education came out.
His resume was a complete fraud. He never graduated from the universities he claimed. Claims to have a GED but not sure about that. It hit the news down there but unlike Bellevue the leadership called for his resignation. Let me point out they did every thing they could to keep him but the backlash was too great.
Now does anyone want to guess where he is today? He went back to Georgia, once again under the wings and protection of Johnny Hunt. Why in earth do these SBC leaders want to protect their wounded, fallen ministers so badly? Help them but for God’s sake don’t turn them lose on us again. Steve Flockhart has forfeited his right to be a pastor. He can still do God’s work but not as a pastor.
Same goes for these pedophile ministers. Just saying pedophile ministers doesn’t sound right. They don’t mix and they, the pedophiles, don’t belong in the ministry and I don’t care what church or faith you attend of believe.
Is the SBC that much in trouble? It seems like the movie Ground Hog Day. Why do these leaders keep repeating their selves? Some where it has to end; they don’t like the rhetoric from some of us but until they implement some real change they better get used to it. As victims our voices are only going to get stronger and louder.
David Brown
"Look at what we do today. The US government doesn't collect taxes from churches, the nobles and officials are collecting the money, the people are paying it and the fatherless, the widows and sojourners among us still starve..."
Also, where is it instituted in the NT that the ecclesia had to build a building? A temple?
Also, to reference this discussion and bring it to the NT..where would this verse fit into thinking what is in Mal fits the NC?
Matthew 17
24 When they came to Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax went up to Peter and said, "Does your teacher not pay the tax?"
25He said, "Yes." And when he came into the house, Jesus spoke to him first, saying, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do kings of the earth take toll or tax? From their sons or from others?"
26And when he said, "From others," Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are free. 27However, not to give offense to them, go to the sea and cast a hook and take the first fish that comes up, and when you open its mouth you will find a shekel. Take that and give it to them for me and for yourself."
concernedsbcer...I have been wondering where you were. Glad you are back. Hope you have a tan.
Hi everyone---Yesterday someone told me the reason they "forgave and support Paul..." is that he was a good teacher. OOOKKKAAAAY. It is hopeless until he gets enough rope to hang himself. In OUR lifetime we WILL see him be his own undoing. I hear out in Fayette County he is all over the place, proud as can be.Draws attention to himself as if the whole thing was some sick reality tv show. I actually popped in to ask if the 2007 love offering has been given to Memphis yet? Was it to be the school system? I am just really wondering how that all went and if it helped the church grow.
Welcome back Concernedsbcer !!!
Really meant that, but also needed to get the blog of comment 666.
Juss sayin'. :)
oc.
uh. "off". I was in such a hurry.
Juss sayin...' again.
THERE'S A NEW THREAD. PLEASE MOVE UP!
Thank you,
NBBCOF
Lin,
It adds bit to the meaning of Matt 25:35-46 as well.
Hey wait a minute...I thought we had left the OT behind and we are in the NT now.....:)
Post a Comment