This was sent to me by a poster with the screen name "22 years at BBC" (not to be confused with "25+yrs@bbc"). I think it deserves highlighting on the front page rather than being buried in the comments.
This blogger, Lindon, has posted an excellent piece on Bellevue. This was posted in a comment in the last thread with no reference to its source.
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467 comments:
1 – 200 of 467 Newer› Newest»ju- What do you and others NOT get about this investigation?? It is a VERY serious legal issue.
You and many others are acting like Dr. Gaines is running the investigation and can just do whatever he would like.
4545,
SG definitely has control over the internal investigation. To believe otherwise would be foolish.
So you are saying that he is above the law and law enforcement is just going to look the other way.
4545 wrote:
"What do you and others NOT get about this investigation?? It is a VERY serious legal issue.
"You and many others are acting like Dr. Gaines is running the investigation and can just do whatever he would like."
I don't get why the church administration feels it's their place to conduct an investigation at all. You're correct that it is a LEGAL matter and should be investigated by the authorities. Period.
NASS
4545 said...
You and many others are acting like Dr. Gaines is running the investigation and can just do whatever he would like.
Comments like yours only serve to prove how misinformed you are.
Does anyone really believe that Steve Gaines held Paul Williams confession in confidence?
I'm saying that I, like many here have absolutely NO idea what PW said to SG in that meeting. I therefore would not be surprised in the slightest if what was said was actually something other than has been reported. Something that is still a terrible "moral failure" in the eyes of the church but something that turns out due to the internal "investigation" to be other than an offense that required SG to report it. Time will tell but as SG has said many times he "didn't fall off the turnip truck" yesterday. Calling it a "moral failure" was a calculated phrase. We all wondered why he didn't call the SIN a SIN. Maybe it's because when the "investigation" is done it won't be what any of us expected. My reason for all of this speculation would be an attempt to squelch this blog and rally support around SG.
REPOST
blessmewiththetruth said...
ARE THE WEIGHTS BALANCED?
Steve Gaines had leadership in West Jackson removed for sexual immorality.
Steve Gaines knows that a senior staff member has been accused of sexual immorality and takes NO ACTION WHAT SO EVER. He refuses to even investigate.
WHY?????????????
3:10 PM, December 06, 2006
I have a question for Blessme. Was the sexual immorality you referred to in that post the PW situation or was it something else? Is another senior staff member guilty of a "moral failure?"
Like Sackcloth said, it is way past time for truth and light. Let's get it all out there.
Blessme,
The reason I wanted you to email me was so I could ask about some of the things in my previous post. Please email me.
blessmewiththetruth,
I think that it is highly possible that Steve Gaines thought that he had someone completely under his thumb. He knew he had something to hold over Paul Williams and could get him to do anything that he wanted.
I actually believe that Steve Gaines was not happy about this coming out for two reasons. The first reason was because it made him look completely incompetent. The second was because he will lose a minister that he had complete control over.
Ace-
I don’t know whether you are married or whether you have children. I am not going to speculate. However, your words and your tone are very harsh. Please stop and think about what you are saying (typing) before you hit the “publish” button. Some women have poured out their hearts as they have relived some painful memories from their childhood.
I am amazed at your conduct.
If you are married, would you want a confessed child molester to counsel your wife for any reason? If you have children, would you want a confessed child molester to be any where around them or their friends? Whether you are single or married and whether you have children or no children, would you want a pedophile being around ANY child? I pray your answer is a resounding NO to each of these questions.
I am not talking about whether somebody likes or dislikes Steve Gaines.
In my opinion, all of the other issues and situations involving or alleged to have involved Steve Gaines and/or our church leadership pale in comparison to the FACT that our Pastor – mine and yours – allowed a confessed pedophile to remain on staff in a leadership position for six months…180 days and nights…without notifying the proper legal authorities. And, Bryan Miller, Chairman of the Deacons and President of ECS, knew about it for 2 weeks before it was disclosed to the congregation (these are the words of Steve Gaines, not me).
NASS,
I agree that the church has no business conducting any investigation and for that matter they allowed this story to go public AFTER KNOWING FOR 6 months that this was an issue - Dr. Gaines had SO much time to do any investigating he wanted.
They could have had avoided the hoopla in the news by acting sooner as well.
In my opinion, though Gaines is not running the investigation, he may as well be. Pretty much he comes out smelling like a rose in all of this UNLESS he is brought up on criminal charges.
The reason he comes out smelling like a rose is - now, after this story is dealt with and we have "a fresh start" the old stuff will never be dealt with ... he continues gaining total control, he continues "plucking up" and "overthrowing" and when someone makes a comment about these things - he will just say they are dissdents who have something personal against him. Then, we become the enemy even moreso than we are seen by some now.
He already has a free pass from most of the congregation, well, if you judge free passes from whooping calls and standing ovations.
Sad but true.
Tim,
You are a genius by the way. I also thought the same thing about the PW issue, that SG was "keeping" the secret for him until a time when it would be convenient to surface.
How sad that people are not seeing this out in the open!
NPYFIM
formerbellevuemembercloseby said...
I thought some of you might enjoy the following poem sent to me by a family member. My 19 year old son says he doubts things were ever truly the way portrayed by the poem...what do you think?
THE OLD PATHS
I liked the old paths, when Moms were at home. Dads were at work.
Brothers went into the army. And sisters got married BEFORE having children!
Crime did not pay; Hard work did;
And people knew the difference.
Moms could cook; Dads would work; Children would behave..
Husbands were loving; Wives were supportive; And children were polite.
Women wore the jewelry; And Men wore the pants.
Women looked like ladies; Men looked like gentlemen;
And children looked decent.
People loved the truth, And hated a lie;
They came to church to get IN, Not to get OUT!
Hymns sounded Godly; Sermons sounded helpful;
Rejoicing sounded normal; And crying sounded sincere.
Cursing was wicked; Drinking was evil;
and divorce was unthinkable.
The flag was honored; America was beautiful; And God was welcome!
We read the Bible in public; Prayed in school; And preached from house to house
To be called an American was worth dying for; To be called a Christian was worth living for; To be called a traitor was a shame!
Sex was a personal word.
Homosexual was an unheard of word,
And abortion was an illegal word.
Preachers preached because they had a message;
And Christians rejoiced because they had the VICTORY!
Preachers preached from the Bible; Singers sang from the heart;
And sinners turned to the Lord to be SAVED!
A new birth meant a new life;
Salvation meant a changed life;
Following Christ led to eternal life.
Being a preacher meant you proclaimed the word of God;
Being a deacon meant you would serve the Lord;
Being a Christian meant you would live for Jesus;
And being a sinner meant someone was praying for you!
Laws were based on the Bible; Homes read the Bible; And churches taught the Bible.
Preachers were more interested in new converts,
Than new clothes and new cars.
God was worshiped; Christ was exalted;
and the Holy Spirit was respected.
Church was where you found Christians on the Lord's day, rather than in the garden,
on the creek bank, on the golf course, or being entertained somewhere else.
I still like the old paths the best !
"The Old Paths" was written by a retired minister who lives
in Tennessee.
10:48 PM, December 30, 2006
Guys,
It seems that I read somewhere that when PW 'confessed' to SG, there was another witness to it.
When the investigators start snooping, that 'witness' is gonna have to tell what he knows.
If SG tries to "tamper" with that witness, gonna be a whole lot of kool aid drinkers making him a cake with a file in it. :)
ju/others- again, So you are saying that he is above the law and law enforcement is just going to look the other way.
ju,
David Coombs confirmed the "moral failure" to David Brown. Not once, but twice. If this were any other activity then the church has been negligent in not clarifing their statement. If it turns out to be anything else then the church has caused law enforcement, David Brown and the DHS to waste a lot of time investigating what David Coombs confirmed to David Brown.
I believe that there are some pretty stiff penalties for filing improper reports to the authorities as well.
Ace said…
“You'll have to contact Bellevue for more info on the "rape" and what happened.”
I will have to disagree with you on that one, Ace. That will get you nowhere.
I did contact Bellevue the day after the Police report became known, and was beyond frustrated at what I was told. (And not told.)
First, I was told nothing. The security guard who answered the phone the first time I called told me he had no information regarding the incident. I was told to go about my business as usual, put my children in their Sunday School classes (we still call it that - it‘s not just about fellowship!) and stop by the Security Office during the Bible Fellowship hour and chat with the Head of Security, who is apparently not available on Saturday.
In my frustration, I called the Police and ultimately talked to the head of the Sex Crimes Bureau. Obviously, because of the nature of the crime, she was unable to give me any details, but directed me to call the church right away. She assured me that with an incident of this nature, the church would certainly want to inform the membership.
I called the Bellevue security office again, and was more persistent. By this time, they had been flooded with calls from fearful members searching for information.
The final word to reassure me -
“Well, unfortunately, Ma’am, it’s just a sign of the times.”
Unbelievable.
Ah maybe so. We'll see.
tim said- blessmewiththetruth,
I think that it is highly possible that Steve Gaines thought that he had someone completely under his thumb. He knew he had something to hold over Paul Williams and could get him to do anything that he wanted.
I actually believe that Steve Gaines was not happy about this coming out for two reasons. The first reason was because it made him look completely incompetent. The second was because he will lose a minister that he had complete control over
REPLY- That is ridiculous. wow
ju,
they are not going to look the other way but why in the world is PW on an ADMINISTRATIVE LEAVE? That denotes a possibility of returning at some point!
Maybe SG is looking past the authorities and by placing PW on administrative leave he is trying to insure the return of PW - and after reading Tim's comments, that doesn't seem so far fetched anymore ...
But to bring back PW would be career suicide, I don't care if "God called " him to Bellevue or not.
SG is for some reason just postponing the inevitable.
NPYFIM
so...i must have missed something...has ace been a bad boy or something?
npyfim,
I don't believe that Steve Gaines would have ever wanted this to surface as long as he had complete control over Paul Williams. He would have been able to dispatch him out to perform what ever action he chose, because he had a secret that he could reveal at any time that Paul Williams disobeyed.
Hopefully, PW will be in jail, and unable to return to BBC.
Does anybody remember Bruce Brooke -- Chairman of the Board of Directors for Bellevue Baptist Church? What is the latest on his "alleged situation."
Nass- Bellevue is only a part of the investigation. There are several groups involved.
Much more hate speech from fedupatbbc. It amazes me some can get on here and point fingers at others when they are light years from where they need to be spiritually.
4545 said...
ju/others- again, So you are saying that he is above the law and law enforcement is just going to look the other way.
11:11 PM, December 30, 2006
He (SG) did look the other way for six months.His actions lead one to believe that he thinks that he is above the law.
4545 said...
Nass- Bellevue is only a part of the investigation. There are several groups involved.
Yep, just ask Wayne Vandersteeg.
4545,
It is rediculous for something like that to be going on in the church. Unfortunately, it happens all the time, especially in Washington. It is incredibly sad that the politics within the church have become stronger than the doctrine of the church.
4545,
truth is...everyone is light years from where they need to be...unless i read it wrong...none of are going to "arrive" till we get home.
So how is Dr Gaines or anyone else responsible for a "rape" (if it happened)?? How? I guess that is his fault also? We have some of the best security anywhere.
4545 said...
Much more hate speech from fedupatbbc. It amazes me some can get on here and point fingers at others when they are light years from where they need to be spiritually.
Reply:
By whose authority could you possibly make a statement such as that? Do you now pretend to stand in the place of God in determing the spiritual condition of someone?
nthepew- You do not know the facts anymore than anyone else.
OH MY GOODNESS!!!
Now it's hate speech to hope that PW will be in jail for the rape of his son?
will wonders never cease?
In my opinion, "moral failure" was not used to downplay the event.
And to the point about beastility (sp?) he might have used the term, but did he describe it in detail?
i love my church- Care to share more? Facts please
fedupatbbc,
There will always be those that empathize with the criminals and not the victims. Those that behave in such a manner reveal a great deal about what they are truly like deep down inside. When someone is able to relate more with heartless criminals than innocent victims, you know that they have a heart problem.
Let's keep everyone to the same standards and no more calling people who do not agree with you "kool aid drinkers" Thanks
Never put your faith in men! said...
ju,
they are not going to look the other way but why in the world is PW on an ADMINISTRATIVE LEAVE? That denotes a possibility of returning at some point!
Isn't the statute of limitations 15 years on this type of crime? SG may have known that PW could not be prosecuted for it and that is why he let him stay (another hireling under his thumb)? My prayer is that there will be an issue whereby there is no statute involved, I just pray that there is no recent recurrance of this crime (sin). They are both criminals and the son is being victimized over and over with each passing day.
Guys,
Consider the possibility that Ace and 4545 are a tag team.
According to a couple of deacons, those outsiders have a connection to Wayne Vandersteeg, so it's not exactly an arms-length situation.
memphis-
"And to the point about beastility (sp?) he might have used the term, but did he describe it in detail?"
I just listened to the sermon again, and he didn't. It was in the sermon because it was in the text of Scripture he was quoting, so he wasn't just going to ignore it.
BTW, I also just listened to the "Blessedness of a Cleansed Heart" sermon everyone keeps talking about. He does say we aren't born lost, but from the context of the sermon it is clear he is saying that we aren't born under condemnation, i.e., if a baby died he or she would not go to hell. This is actually a controversial point in the Baptist Faith & Message 2000, which Adrian Rogers chaired and Steve Gaines was also in, which says that we are not under condemnation until we reach an age of accountability, and while I do think infants that die will go to heaven, I think they are applying the wrong principles here. It's because of God's mercy, not because we aren't under condemnation (go and read Romans!). Either way, he is not saying we are not born with a sinful nature like some have interpreted that to mean, and if you go back and listen to the sermon I think that's pretty clear.
4545 said...
nthepew- You do not know the facts anymore than anyone else.
11:28 PM, December 30, 2006
I only know what Sg himself said before the church and that was he has known for six months about PW.Are you trying to tell me that SG did not know about PW since June . HMMMMM that would make SG a lier. Well I could agree with you that SG lies.
It is your attitude and what you say in every post. Your tone is horrible. You do not know what you are talking about in many cases.
Would Dr. Rogers wish PW's was in jail?
I have never defended PW's or what he did. Never. At the same time, I do not wish bad things on him. I want to know the FACTS. All of them. Is jail what he deserves? Maybe. My guess is, he is miserable right now.
MOM
There is some sort of law, i do believe, that defines the statute as a certain number of years after the "child" reaches adulthood.
David Brown would be the one to answer this question, and it is a VERY good question.
I'm gonna email him.
NO, I am saying we do not know what PW's told Dr. Gaines and what he new etc. We will know soon.
4545,
ARE YOU KIDDING?
Would Dr. Rogers wish PW to be in jail?
LOL!!!!
NO, he wouuld rather that a known child sexual offender continue to prey on innocent children..
And poor PW..he's miserable...Oh, my..i feel soooo sorry for him.
Prayingcolossians1:
You are doing great! I was glad to see your repost but I would like for you to repost it again NOW so that we can have 4545 and others read the word of God on here and deny THAT. Okay? Okay.
Dee
Ezekeil, you posted a linnk for me about church discipline and voting people out of the church which I could not get to work. Would you please email it to me so I can hear it.
You are the expert of spin. I will stop wasting my time with you.
FEDUP,
Thanks! I am anxious to know what David Brown says on this - the 15 year statute would stand to reason why SG is keeping PW on staff, but that would have meant that he DID get some outside counsel bc I don't think he has any ethics training to rely on.
On another note about ACE and 4545 being a tag team - did you ever see the movie "The Ghost and the Darkness"? It is a true story about two man-eater lions in Africa and their "maneuvers" when they attacked - that "tag team" approach of ACE and 4545 reminded me of the movie (it is a movie with graphic violence that one would expect in a movie about man-eater lions, but a true story)
cjesusnme,
You just said more than I know. I was only told that a connection to WV exists. If that is true could this be any bigger farce? They said the investigation is a political move to buy time in the hopes this storm blows over.
graceupongrace, thanks for clearing that up
Again, so law enforcement and all the the other legal groups are going to just let WV and Dr. Gaines and others run the show and break the law etc?
You are truly making no sense.
4545 said...
It is your attitude and what you say in every post. Your tone is horrible. You do not know what you are talking about in many cases.
What is so horrible about wanting a child molester in jail?????
Would Dr. Rogers wish PW's was in jail?
I really don't care what Dr. Rogers wishes toward PW. I want to see this man brought to trial and IF guilty then go to prison to pay for his crimes and KEEP HIM AWAY FROM CHILDREN
I have never defended PW's or what he did. Never. At the same time, I do not wish bad things on him. I want to know the FACTS. All of them. Is jail what he deserves? Maybe. My guess is, he is miserable right now.
11:36 PM, December 30, 2006
You think PW is miserable.
What about his son who may be reading how sypathetic your are to his father who raped him
4545,
So you are saying that Steve Gaines should have said that Paul Williams told him of a moral failure six months ago. Then several weeks ago he became aware that it was a completely different moral failure than what Paul Williams had told him about.
For example the statement could have been. Six months ago Paul Williams came to me and told me that 17 years ago he had an adulterous affair. Several weeks ago I became aware that he had lied to me and that Paul Williams was a pedafile. We are now placing Paul Williams on leave to determine if he is a liar, an adulter or a pedafile.
Give me a break! If Steve Gaines believes that will fly with the church, the police or the media then he's crazy. As carefully a prepared statement as he made there is no way that I would believe that he wouldn't have made that clear on December 15.
graceupongrace,
I listened to the context of the sermon...I still say it's a denial of, or at least a misunderstanding of original sin. The belief that infants dying in infancy go to heaven and the fact that all are born spiritually dead are 2 separate issues.
Oh of course not. I am only commenting on the church "investigation" (whitewash!). Those guys better stay out of law enforcement's way.
Mom
I sent David an email. If he doesn't post his answer on here himself, I'll report what he has to say.
About 20 years ago, I tried to contact the DA where my stepfather was living. While she was VERY sympathetic, she told me that the statute had run. Let's see, 20 years ago, i would have been 30. Ok, 31!!!!! The laws could have changed since then, especially in light of all the publicity over the catholic priest situation. I just don't know.
We'll have to wait and see what David has to say about it.
phil413- Your last post proved the point I have tried to make all night. Thanks
allograce,
"graceupongrace,
I listened to the context of the sermon...I still say it's a denial of, or at least a misunderstanding of original sin. The belief that infants dying in infancy go to heaven and the fact that all are born spiritually dead are 2 separate issues."
I agree they are 2 separate issues, but I think Dr. Gaines was trying to make theological language simple enough for the crowd (but maybe too simply) and was using "lost" here to say that infants are not born going to hell. In the very next sentences he says that infants do have a sinful nature - if you don't believe him, go to the church nursery. And his first subpoint in the serman is that We are depraved, quoting Genesis 6:5 that man's thoughts after the fall were all evil all the time.
Tim,
LOLOLOL!!!!
tim wrote:
We are now placing Paul Williams on leave to determine if he is a liar, an adulter or a pedafile.
******
i am STILL spewing my soda all over my computer keys!!!!
Where do you GET this stuff? LOL!!!!
From saving bellevue.com
Here is the information on the great impartial investigation team. I have full faith and confidence in these impartial men and they will get on this and find the facts.
Bellevue Baptist Church is using Mike Stavropoulos to investigate the Paul Williams allegations.
Mike Stavropoulos is employed by David Hamilton and Wayne Vandersteeg. David Hamilton has been very vocal against church members who have asked questions about integrity and accountability.
Wayne Vandersteeg took responsibility for the $25,000 payment to First United Methodist Church even though it was Steve Gaines who made the decision.
Wayne Vandersteeg and David Hamilton are in business together.
allofgrace,
As an additional note of reference, here is Point III of the 2000 Baptist Faith & Message:
"Through the temptation of Satan man transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original innocence whereby his posterity inherit a nature and an environment inclined toward sin. Therefore, as soon as they are capable of moral action, they become transgressors and are under condemnation."
I agree it's theologically inaccurate, but it's a different thing than saying man is born innocent.
4545 said:
You are the expert of spin. I will stop wasting my time with you.
**********
But you make it so EASY for me!!!
Ju-
Regarding the sermon you asked about at the end of the previous thread-
I think Facts provided a date for that one. My notes also show that it was September 17, 2006. The sermon title was “Marriage 101,” and the reference to bestiality was in point IV: “The Pattern of Marriage.” One of the scripture references given was Lev. 18:20-25. It describes ways we are not to defile ourselves in sexual perversion. The point continued by describing the four sins that defile a nation:
1. Adultery
2. Child Sacrifice (which he explained as abortion)
3. Homosexuality (which he spent some time on)
4. Bestiality
The pastor went on to emphasize that once you engage in any sexual immorality, you allow the creations of lasting strongholds in your life.
This outline was very easy for me to find for you because this was when I, a copious and detailed lifelong note-taker, closed my journal and put away my pen. There are no more notes following this entry.
Needless to say, there were many uncomfortable questions from my young children that day. I have never sent them to Children’s Church, because we have always felt it important to worship together as a family. I can see now that it might have been a useful way to censor their Sunday Morning Message. However, it’s too late now. I can’t cause them to “unhear” words like “bestiality” and “homosexuality” and “sexual perversion;” now those words are in their innocent minds forever. Had I had a choice, they wouldn’t have had to learn them so young.
There are other words flying around their church now that it is getting more difficult to shield them from: adultery, rape, pedophilia, molester, incest………I wish that I could run the church service through our Guardian Angel box on our TV that mutes out objectionable language …………
No, I don’t think the term “moral failure” is being used to protect “little ears;” they’ve pretty much heard it all by now.
fedupatbbc,
I would not be surprised in the least if the mystery oil man (Steve Gaines) didn't come try to sell a story like that either. I believe that "4545" saw it and took off like a scalded puppy, because the idea had been ratted out. The Gaines spin men do post here and they have been trying for a while now to plant that seed of doubt of what it was that Paul Williams actually told Steve Gaines six months ago. Politics rule at Bellevue.
graceupongrace,
I heard all that you repeated...the question that the issue raises..and here is the crux...how do infants go to heaven?...the "age of accountability" is a rationalization to maintain a "free will" doctrine over election...the logic being...since an infant can't discern and decide..he's not guilty of actual sin...so the logic goes that without actual guilt, no condemnation...but that leaves the issue of original sin...so how is that dealt with? Unless that issue is dealt with in some way, then the guilt of original sin remains...so the question remains...just how does an infant get to heaven?
fedupatbbc said...
4545 said:
You are the expert of spin. I will stop wasting my time with you.
**********
But you make it so EASY for me!!!
12:00 AM, December 31, 2006
Good but not nearly as good as our old friend "hisservent"
I look up some stuff on the net. I am not sure if this would apply though but Ilinked the address if you want to see it yourself.
According to
http://www.smith-lawfirm.com/sol_Tenn.html
There is no special statute of limitations for survivors of sexual abuse. Under Section 28-3-104, personal tort actions must be brought within one year of the date the cause of action accrued (began to run).
If the person injured was under 18 years of age, under Section 28-1-106 the suit can be brought within one year of reaching 18 (i.e., the limitations period will expire the day before a victim's 18th birthday).
Tennessee has a common law discovery rule, but it is strictly applied. Hunter v. Brown, 955 S.W.2d 49 (Tenn. 1997) (statute of limitations begins to run when injury is discovered, or in the exercise of due care and diligence, plaintiff discovers that he or she has a right of action; limitations period is tolled only during period when plaintiff has no knowledge at all that a wrong has occurred and, as a reasonable person, was not put on inquiry.) Note that because the Plaintiff in Hunter had continuous memory of her abuse, the court stated that the case did not fairly raise the issue of repressed memory and specifically reserved decision on the applicability of the discovery rule to repressed memory "for another day."
Now by posting this I am in no way excusing what took place, not condoning it in anyway!!!!!!! I am not a lawyer either, just good at google!
allofgrace,
I agree with you 100%, and not Dr. Rogers & Dr. Gaines on this one. But people have stated that Dr. Gaines believe that one is born without a sinful nature, and anyone who listens to the sermon knows this is not ture.
be-still-and-know said
I wish that I could run the church service through our Guardian Angel box on our TV that mutes out objectionable language …………
I know that this is off topic but Does Guardian angel really work and where can I find it.Does it filter DVD's?
Ya'll,
Ok, with regard to that sermon that SG preached about the 4 things that destroy a marriage...
I wasn't there that sunday...and I have just taken a few moments to reflect on what he said.
I can understand the first 3...adultry, abortion and homosexuality. But beastiality.
I am not aware that this is a common household problem.
Does he know something we don't know?
I believe what I founf was on civil actions not criminal so it might not apply like I thought. My bad
graceupongrace,
my statement was, that what he said was a denial of original sin..the sin nature we inherit from Adam is original sin, if we are sinners by nature, then that is enough for condemnation...what I want him to say or admit to...is that God would have to have chosen all dying in infancy to salvation and provided for them in the atonement, rather than dependence on an "age of accountability" doctrine
Memphis,
Actually, i MIGHT have read somewhere that the criminal aspect of these laws is a federal law. I could be wrong.
Considering that catholic priests were moved from state to state, that might have been the motivation to make it a federal law as oppposed to state law, IF this is the case.
fedupatbbc,
I'm sure Dr. Gaines wasn't jumping to include that in his sermon either, but if you're truly going to preach the Bible, you can't take things out, and that was clearly a part of the passage he was using.
And be-still-and-know I'm sorry you don't want your kids to hear about homosexuality this early, but I do think it is necessary to talk about that from the pulpit when the situation arises. Genesis 2 talks about a man cleaving to a woman, and this is an important point that Dr. Gaines was right to emphasize.
Actually, I think you should all go back and listen to the sermon. Dr. Gaines calls homosexuality what it is - sin - but talks about the issue with compassion for those dealing with it. He specifically asks the congregation not to applaud the point and not to be so quick to kick on people struggling with homosexual desires. If only more preachers would follow Dr. Gaines' approach in talking about the subject.
from WMC news
Everyone has a duty to report. There are not exceptions, there are not exceptions for clergy or anyone else," said Assistant District Attorney, Kevin Rardin.
Rardin could not talk specifically about possible legal action against Gaines.
But, he says Tennessee law is clear when it comes to reporting sexual abuse against a child.
Rardin adds, "Failure to report suspected child abuse or neglect is a crime in and of itself.
Rardin says it doesn't matter how long ago that abuse happened, or if the child who was abused, is now an adult.
"Even though the child you mention may now be an adult, there may be other children at risk from the same person, the suspect, and that's why it's incumbent upon you to report it to the appropriate authorities."
nthepew wrote:
"Here is the information on the great impartial investigation team."
Fox ------> guarding ------> henhouse.
allofgrace,
"my statement was, that what he said was a denial of original sin..the sin nature we inherit from Adam is original sin, if we are sinners by nature, then that is enough for condemnation...what I want him to say or admit to...is that God would have to have chosen all dying in infancy to salvation and provided for them in the atonement, rather than dependence on an "age of accountability" doctrine"
We're on the exact same page here, and we both disagree with Dr. Gaines (and Dr. Rogers, for that matter) on this issue. But surely you see that Dr. Gaines does believe we are born with a sinful nature, which is what some people said Dr. Gaines was denying with this sermon. Not you, but some other people in the past couple weeks.
Whoa...graceupongrace-
Did you say that our Pastor actually asked the “congregation not to applaud?” Are we talking about Steve Gaines….at Bellevue?
My eyes must be tired because I thought I just read that Steve Gaines asked us not to applaud! I just about fell out of my chair….
graceupongrace,
I'm picking on it for obvious reasons...deny original sin...you have to deny the need for blood atonement, deny the need for blood atonement..then you have one way of salvation for infants and one for everyone else...to me it's an inconsistent logic, which brings other crucial doctrines tumbling down.
By the way,
I think the point of him talking about "moral failure" here, and why the issue of him talking about bestiality isn't related, is that Rev. Williams' son goes to Bellevue (or at least he was part of the congregation for many years, not sure if he still goes), and there are many people who knew his son, and understandably he would not want to bring further embarrassment on him. How would you feel if you were Rev. Williams' son and they were talking about what your father did to you from the stage?
We haven't seen this in a few days. Just to keep it fresh in everyone's mind:
25+yrs@BBC said...
Here are a few important changes that would help during these days of crisis in leadership:
I. Pastoral Accountability to the Congregation:
1. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... and any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
2. The giving records of the membership and the ministers on staff at Bellevue should never be for pastoral review in any shape, form, or fashion.
3. No church credit cards.
4. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
5. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else.
6. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
7. Timely removal from office of ministers guilty of sexual immorality with immediate and timely coordination with the appropriate authorities if any laws have been broken by a minister (no matter how long ago), including thorough investigation of the matter when the minister’s conduct may have affected other church members or their children.
II. Congregational Church governance:
Some of the congregation has awakened to the reality that our church has a set of "lay-elders," a close knit group of men who manage to be appointed to key positions year after year. The rest of the congregation needs to be awakened.
1. Those who are part of this lay-elder "power block" need to step down from positions of influence for a long time. Bellevue needs “new blood” in these key positions.
2. There needs to be the signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services for the church. These people should not be allowed to serve on committees that review bids for their services.
3. Congregational nomination of and election of all of the Board of Directors as called for in the 1929 bylaws.
4. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. **The current bylaws mention "monthly" business meetings! When were they changed??
5. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
8. Thorough communication with the Congregation for ANY capital project well in advance of any vote. Building prayer buildings or any other type of building should be brought through proper channels to the congregation for prayerful consideration--not coerced "rubber stamping." [By the way, Dr. Rogers taught us quite a bit about prayer. As a matter of fact, I believe all of the current buildings ARE prayer buildings already. He and Dr. Whitmire also taught us quite a bit about worship also... but that's another topic].
9. Bellevue needs to reject Warrenism fully and finally.
10. Higher standards should be put in place for the hiring of "ministers." Seminary training should be considered a normal prerequisite.
III. Treatment of ministers on staff at BBC and members:
1. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members.
2. The end of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members; and the end of signing non-disclosure statements. All ministers who have been pressured or asked to sign such non-disclosure statements should be released from them in writing by BBC! Former staff should be allowed to address the congregation and/or the deacon body either in writing or in person without any fear of reprisal regarding their exit from BBC. Gaines has confessed to mishandling Dr. Whimire's exit... The congregation now needs to hear from Dr. Whimire--and several others--by letter or in person IN THEIR OWN WORDS. The congregation needs to know how their leadership has treated and is treating ministers who leave the service of our Lord through BBC.
3. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.
All in my opinion as usual.
We are to be “providing things honestly in the sight of all men” (Rom. 12:17). Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."
factsonlyplease,
"Did you say that our Pastor actually asked the “congregation not to applaud?” Are we talking about Steve Gaines….at Bellevue?
My eyes must be tired because I thought I just read that Steve Gaines asked us not to applaud! I just about fell out of my chair…."
I don't really appreciate the tone of this comment... can you not give credit when credit is due?
Memphis,nthepew,
Thanks, I was wondering about that statute theory. I guess at his point of lie upon lie, who knows what "lies" ahead:). I am praying that the DA is not pressured by political savvy donors with big bucks - if the DA will procecute a minister from Central North Church over the accidental death of his daughter, surely they will pursue this blatant case of sexual assault and cover up.
allofgrace,
"I'm picking on it for obvious reasons...deny original sin...you have to deny the need for blood atonement, deny the need for blood atonement..then you have one way of salvation for infants and one for everyone else...to me it's an inconsistent logic, which brings other crucial doctrines tumbling down."
I'm probably just out of it tonight but I'm not really seeing where you're going / the logic you're using. The age of accountability doctrine isn't denying original sin. It's saying that everyone is born with original sin, but they aren't morally accountable for it when they're a day old. I disagree with their reasoning (the age of accountability doctrine), but I do think God will have mercy on infants.
graceupongrace said...
How would you feel if you were Rev. Williams' son and they were talking about what your father did to you from the stage?
12:23 AM, December 31, 2006
I would want the entire world to know what a slimeball and hypocrite that he is for destroying my childhood and most of my life and to keep him from doing the same to others.
MOM4
To be clear, I think PW should be fired and brought up on charges and face a judge if possible.
As for SG, although I believe he should have fired PW immediately, and I still not convinced that he should be brought up on criminal charges.
graceupongrace,
Its the basis of the mercy that I'm hitting on...God's wrath must be satisfied...for original sin as well as actual sin. I say the basis of God's mercy toward an infant even though the infant isn't guilty of actual sin is based upon His election of and atonement for infants who die.
graceupongrace said...
"I don't really appreciate the tone of this comment... can you not give credit when credit is due?"
Unfortunately, the actions of Steve Gaines attempting to quiet applause is uncharacteristic of his nature. I can see where the shock and awe from "factsonly" could come from - I watched it - it seemed superficial to me and I was not looking for anything to degrade SG, he does a very good job on his own.
nthepew,
"I would want the entire world to know what a slimeball and hypocrite that he is for destroying my childhood and most of my life and to keep him from doing the same to others."
I guess we're just different then. I would personally be EXTREMELY embarrassed. And I also think that the Bible would call me as a child to forgive my father. No matter what anyone says, Rev. Williams is not a zero. He is created in the image of God - just like Billy Graham, just like Jeffrey Dahmer.
Rev. Williams sin was extremely serious. But that doesn't mean we can withhold forgiveness.
(BTW, please don't misunderstand me: I think Dr. Gaines should have fired Rev. Williams 6 months ago as you all do. But wanting a minister removed from staff is different from not forgiving him).
nthepew said:
I would want the entire world to know what a slimeball and hypocrite that he is for destroying my childhood and most of my life and to keep him from doing the same to others.
*******
According to 4545, this is hate speech. I can't help but wonder if there would be any circumstances that 4545 would deem jail necessary if he/she were the victim of a heinous crime.
If 4545 were raped, would he/she think it hateful to want the perpetrator in jail? Would he/she feel sorry for the perp becuase
' he is probly feeling miserable'
I PRAY that this is not the majority of the thinking in the seats at BBC. If so, folks, we're toast.
Personally I agree with grace. I would not want it said to everyone what happened. Who knows, maybe they did run it by the son. guess we will only know if the son is asked or makes a statement.
FORGIVENESS IS NOT THE SAME THING AS CONSEQUENCES!!!
memphis,
We agree on PW, however I have to think that if any attempt to cover the crime was in violation of the law, then the law must be properly enforced. If that results in charges against Steve Gaines or any one else who participated, so be it, as long as there is no preferential treatment or favors granted.
Memphis said...
MOM4
To be clear, I think PW should be fired and brought up on charges and face a judge if possible.
As for SG, although I believe he should have fired PW immediately, and I still not convinced that he should be brought up on criminal charges.
12:30 AM, December 31, 2006
He broke the law. Why should he not be prosecuted for it?
If any children were abused by this guy in the last six months someone will own Bellevue and we will be able to thank your hero SG
allofgrace,
With all due respect... why do you keep posting about this matter? We both agree with eachother. And it is clear Dr. Gaines believes in a sin nature, but the BFM is wrong about age of accountability.
mom4,
It's times like these where I really wonder at how two people can see something so differently. Nevertheless, we'll have to agree to disagree. But I do hope you'll listen to the sermon again. (BTW, even if it was superficial, it was the right thing to do.)
phil413,
I am a bit confused by your post. You are aware the statement did not talk about his son being molested, right?
Graceupongrace
I would like to address your last post in the most gentle way i can muster.
When you said:
I would personally be EXTREMELY embarrassed.
*****
And therein lies the problem.. You see, the child has done nothing wrong. However, attitudes of society force the child to bear the brunt of the embarassment. I once had a friend say to me, after i had told her about my sexual abuse, " you shouldn't tell people about that..they will look at you differently'
How do you think that made me feel?
Your comment, although you said it in complete innocence, is damanging to those of us who have tried to stand up straight and tall, and convince ourselves, even in our old age, that it wans't our fault.
Pleaase, please, don't misunderstand. I am not jumping on you. I can understand why you would think this. It's hard to wrap your head around if you havne't lived thru it yourself.
I pray for PW;s son. I pray that he is able to overcome the temptation to be embarassed. Afterall, it is his FATHER that should be embarassed, not him.
He did nothing wrong. He was just a child.
"we will be able to thank your hero SG"
come on now. If you want to discuss something, no need for sarcastic replies.
If there is proof that it continued to happen and SG knows, then the situation changes. I know you will say that they do not reform, (I am no expert on the subject nor am I a victim)but now we have no proof.
I have been shocked to hear all the stories on here alone of people that were abused, and I hate that you guys had to go through that.
graceupongrace said..
(BTW, even if it was superficial, it was the right thing to do.)
It is always the right thing to do -so why does he not always do it?
ace said:
FedUp,
Are you suggesting that those of us who have shared our abuse testimonies are cry babies?
No, not at all.
Shame on you!
Nope, not shame on me. SHAME ON YOU FOR EVEN BRINGING UP THAT TOPIC. You're pathetic... thanks again for trying to put words in my mouth.
*****************************************
What topic?? Child sexual abuse??
I'll tell you what's pathetic--adults who call themselves Christians that are either too pious, or too politically correct, or too uncomfortable, or too weak, or too selfish, or too busy to stand up and call a foul, violent, heinous act SIN!!
Fedup, I'm as stunned as you are! Don't cry--you're not pathetic. You were a beautiful, precious child who was terrorized, and in my opinion, anyone who does not treat you with understanding and compassion concerning this situation is cruel. You're in my thoughts, and I'm praying for you right now.
Graceupongrace,
I forgot one other point. Its mot just embarassment, it's the shame involved as well. "WE" feel shame, although we do not deserve it. shame and embarassment are closely related.
fedup said...
"pray for PW's son. I pray that he is able to overcome the temptation to be embarassed. Afterall, it is his FATHER that should be embarassed, not him.
He did nothing wrong. He was just a child."
I am sick over this statement bc I know that Paul Williams was out shopping at Christmas and acted like there was nothing wrong and he did not have a care in the world. No one has mentioned the son...and I pray for him daily, the unjust shame that he bears appears to be nothing to his father. PW has to be a sociopath to act like everything is fine. He has even invited friends from BBC over - and some have gone! Is that a shocker or what!!
mom4,
When has he ever asked for applause? (He may have, and if he has, show me, but I can't ever recall a situation when he did).
fedup,
Your words are received well, and you're right it was not the child's fault. But I do not think it would be appropriate to broadcast this to an entire congregation. It's something the child should tell people if he feels led, it's not a decision others should make for him. I really don't think I'm too far off here, but we can agree to disagree.
mom4
Did he and his wife invite folks over for christmas?
When I hear that he was out shopping, going about his merry way, it just makes me sick. This is truly the picture of a sociopath.
What concerns me, tho, is that BBC folks would go over to hs house. My biggest fear in this is that PW would be brought back on the platform and SG would spin it in such a way to the people that they would stand and applaud PW.
I see the folks sitting there with all those round circles surrounding their pupils, like you see on the cartoons. They stand on cue, they applaud on cue.
My heart hurts for his son. I am going to get on my face tonight and cry out to God to give that young man strength and courage.
graceupongrace said...
mom4,
When has he ever asked for applause? (He may have, and if he has, show me, but I can't ever recall a situation when he did).
Grace, watch the first 5 or 6 "applauders" - they are always the same folks in the same spots, staged thruout the worship center. I do not know their names, but I will try to find out and you can ask them why they are always on cue.
memphis said..
If there is proof that it continued to happen and SG knows, then the situation changes. I know you will say that they do not reform, (I am no expert on the subject nor am I a victim)but now we have no proof.
The victims word is enough for me to fire the man and call the police to investigate. Do some research and find out for yourself how many victims the avarage molester has and haw many are reformed.
I have been shocked to hear all the stories on here alone of people that were abused, and I hate that you guys had to go through that.
12:43 AM, December 31, 2006
If you are so shocked how can you continue to defend SG's inaction with regards to PW.
And yes if there is another case of abuse by PW in the last six months someone will own BBC and it will be because of SG's inaction.Which YOU support.
.
graceupongrace said:
But I do not think it would be appropriate to broadcast this to an entire congregation. It's something the child should tell people if he feels led, it's not a decision others should make for him
*****
We are in total agreement!
I would like to add that had SG taken care of this 6 months ago, quietly, before it blew up in his face, perhaps we would not be having this conversation.
Fedup,
I do not know about Christmas, but I do know one couple who went for dinner. I just don't understand it either.
well, it is 1 am, off to bed. I want to go to church in the morning - SG won't be there, maybe Santa won't be out front either.
nthepew, I hve said numerous times that PW should have been fired 6 months ago
MEmphis
I challenge you to find ANY information out there that would contradict the facts about pedofelia that have been previously stated on this blog.
You know how to google. Go and google it and see what comes up. You will see the same thing, over and over and over.
There is no such thing as a reformed pedofile.
They have many victims.
Pedofelia thrives in secrecy.
AS sure as the sun comes up tomorrow morning, these things are true.
I'm off to bed too, and my "crystal ball" tells me the sermon will be about The Call to Brokenness. ;). Should be worth hearing.
Colossians:
Email me. My addy is on the profile now :)
fedup, I did not dispute any your facts. Do you agree that there have been no other reports at this time?
I pray to God there have been no other reports. I do not want there to any other victims. I do not want PW working for the church. I do not want him to not go before the courts.
Well, if ya'll are going to bed, I guess I'll go, too.
Be careful driving in this nasty weather!
Memphis,
I know that you did not dispute my facts. I'm sorry it appeared that way. I guess I was just wanting you to do your own research instead of taking my word for it.
Memphis said...
nthepew, I hve said numerous times that PW should have been fired 6 months ago
1:04 AM, December 31, 2006
Ok what about SG doing nothing and placing EVERY child attending BBC in danger.Much like the guy who drives the getaway car at a bank robbery he didn't actually rob the bank but he enabled it,and that is what SG did for PW.And for that he should leave BBC. Do you agree or not?
honestly I feel that whoever knew about it 17 years ago is the person we all should be going after.
Memphis said...
honestly I feel that whoever knew about it 17 years ago is the person we all should be going after.
1:13 AM, December 31, 2006
I agree but we also need to go after SG because he also knew and did nothing.
I am off to bed.
Goodnight and Happy New Year!
Memphis,
Yes, i agree, HOWEVER, it's not gonna be just one person. I think that ANYONE that knew about it up until a couple of weeks ago should be held accountable, and that INCLUDES sg.
Someone mentioned earlier that if there has been another occurance in the last 6 months, someone is gonna own BBC. To that i would add, if someone at BBC knew about it 17 years ago, and there are other occurances, ( and there are, let me PROMISE you) BBC just better get out the checkbook.
Another thing to consider here is this:
OUr liability insurance carrier. What provider is going to want to carry us after this? If SG remains in power, will they not see that as a liability because of his ineffectiveness in his decisions on this? Will our current carrier drop us?
Do you know how fast the $30,000,000 will be dried up if we start paying out claims to victims out of our own pocket, without insurance?
fedupatbbc
Amen brother,
Thank you for expressing my thoughts better that I could.I'm off to bed nave a happy new year
In my life BK ( before kids) I was an insurance adjuster here in Memphis. Our office received a claim from a local church..I wont' name names :)
Anyway, it seems that there was a woman who was ' living in sin' as the deacons said, and sent her a letter threatening to 'excommunicate' her if she did not repent. They went so far as to send her a copy of a letter that they were going to send out to every member of the congregation, telling them that this woman should be shunned, if she did not repent.
Well, the woman took the letter to her attorney, who wrote a letter to the deacons that signed the letter. The lawyer told the deacons that if they sent the letter out, he was going to sue each and every one of them personally.
Not too long after that, the deacons sent the letter out to the congregation. And sure enuf, the lawyer filed a lawsuit against each and every one of them.
And this is why we had the claim. The individual deacons then tried to file a claim with their insurance carriers and we happened to insure a handful of those deacons under their homeowners policy.
I was telling my grandfather about this particular claim, and his comments to me were:
" Well, they should have sent the letter. The woman needed to repent and stop living in sin"
When I explained to him that we were going to deny the claim and they would have to pay the money out of their own pocket to the woman ( about 10 or 15 thousand each) he replied:
" They should have minded their own business"
Ok, this was totally off topic and random, but i thought it to be funny.
Ok,
It appears I am jabbering to myself at 1:29 AM, LOL!!!
I"m gonna turn out the lights in this joint and go to bed!!!
Happy New Year, all!
Forgiveness: actively seeking the best- or God's best- for someone who has hurt you, sinned against you. "The smile mile" is included here- if someone constrains you to go with him one mile, go with him two. The first is by compulsion, the second is the smile mile, willingly giving more than is required, liberating yourself, bewildering the one who constrained you, and pleasing your Father in heaven. That is what He has done for us. Romans 5... For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Forgiveness originates with the Forgiver, it's not natural, it's supernatural to allow Someone to deal with the offenses against you. It's a covenant term. David didn't fight back against his pursuers because his covenant Partner would fight for him.
Forgiveness is NOT the same as saying "we're all sinners so let's not judge anybody." "Vengeance is Mine, saith the Lord. I will repay." Whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap.
Consequences? That's a separate issue. Forgiveness does NOT remove consequences. Gaines should resign. Williams should resign. The consequences of their actions disqualify them from their leadership positions.
Let not many among you become masters (teachers/leaders) for in such is the greater condemnation. For in many things we offend all. If man offend not in word, the same is a perfect (complete, mature) man, able also to bride the whole body... (James 3)
oops, too late at night.
Their actions disqualify them.
(and I am glad I am not a pastor. Whew! The Lord holds us accountable for every idle word!)
Doesn't anyone have any comments about the article by "22 Years at BBC"? I thought he touched on some interesting ideas we haven't discussed before.
NBBCOF
I read in Exodus this morning 22:28 "Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people" This has a broad application, I believe, but it spoke to me and thought that I would share with you. Ref. Eccl. 10:20 It is so easy to be caught up in our grievances that we are ourselves consumed, especially when we lay down to sleep each night. There seems to be a slim line drawn between justifiable complaints and our strong desires James 4:1. We can win a war yet loose our own soul. Paul came close to this line in Acts 23:1-5
Even Paul in his zeal stepped over the line. Your cause is a noble cause, don't let it keep you from a good night's rest. My prayers are with you.
nbbcof,
Where's the post by 22 yrs at bbc?
I, like others of recent days, have been reading this blog (and its predecessors) since their inception. Never in my 30+ years at Bellevue would I have ever thought that we would be facing what we are today.
I would like to say that from the beginning I began to notice that Bro. Steve and others did not seem to have an appreciation for the godly heritage that we at BBC have enjoyed for years.
Early on Bro. Steve stated that "He" was going to make our church a praying church--with Dr. Rogers seated before him in the audience.
On another occasion, we were told during a sermon on Elijah and the Prophets of Baal that Bro. Steve wasn't talking about doing things new and different (in relation to our church and music). He told us that he was talking about repairing the altar that had been broken. Again, having worshipped at Bellevue since I was a small child, I certainly never thought that I was worshipping at a broken altar! I didn't realize that things were in such disrepair!
From the time I was a child, I remember Dr. Rogers teaching us that we stood on the shoulders of those who came before us. Their sacrifices, their tears, their hard work, their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, was what had allowed God to mold Bellevue into the wonderful church she was.
How sad it is to realize that now, we must forget the things of the past and look to the future. I believe that we should only do this through gratefulness to the Lord to those who came before us. I believe that through the desire to "be successful" by the world's standards, we have lost our way and no longer look to God's standards.
In the words of Steve Green...
"Oh may all who come behind us find us faithful
May the fire of our devotion light their way
May the footprints that we leave
Lead them to believe
And the lives we live inspire them to obey
Oh may all who come behind us find us faithful"
May we truly be faithful--to Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ--not to men on this earth!
I wanted to repost this from last night. This or something like it is what I beleive you can expect to hear from the church investigation.
If this spin goes by it will be placed in the Clintonian Museum of Spin.
--------
So you are saying that Steve Gaines should have said that Paul Williams told him of a moral failure six months ago. Then several weeks ago he became aware that it was a completely different moral failure than what Paul Williams had told him about.
For example; the statement could have been. Six months ago Paul Williams came to me and told me that 17 years ago he had an adulterous affair. Several weeks ago I became aware that he had lied to me and that Paul Williams was a pedafile. We are now placing Paul Williams on leave to determine if he is a liar, an adulter or a pedafile.
Give me a break! If Steve Gaines believes that will fly with the church, the police or the media then he's crazy. As carefully a prepared statement as he made there is no way that I would believe that he wouldn't have made that clear on December 15.
-----------
Think about it.
aog,
Look in the topic heading! There's a link for it.
the 22 years at BBC comments:
I think his take is enlightened and provides a healthy spiritual and biblical insight. Sad reality is that the masses do not have the ability to step outside of a contemporary cultural phenomena to 'see' it. And as distasteful as it may be for most, there is somewhat of a cultural church need to be identified with a 'successful' church and a 'successful' pastor. Regretfully that 'success' is measured by worldly standards.....NOT God's standards. Have you ever wondered what it must be like to exist as a Spirit filled believer in an underground church in China? I think our perspectives would be dramatically different. 22 years at BBC has it right on!
New Year's Resolutions for our Beloved Bellevue Baptist Church.
* Take the Word that we preach weakly and practice what the Word says.
* Start holding ministers on staff to the Biblical standards called for.
* Stop calling a homosexual/pedophilia act a "moral failure". Call it an abonination to the Lord.
* Start applying Matthew 18 inside the church, including Steve Gaines and the rest of the ministers.
* Stop allowing the pastor and other ministers to be above reproach.
* Seek God to call a Servant Leader to replace Steve Gaines.
* Ask the Lord to forgive us as a church for winking at the sin that has occured from our leadership this past year.
* Forgive us for giving standing ovations to a pastor that has shamed our Lord, Bellevue, and his family.
* Stop allowing power to be in the hands of a few men who act unbiblical in church business.
* Ask God to give our leadership discernment on right vs. wrong.
* Demand accountability from the pastor.
* Demand accountability from our churh lay leaders.
* All of us to test everything that is done and said with the Word.
* Create in environment where the congregation can ask legitimate questions.
* Have quarterly business meetings where the membership can be a part of what's going on and have the freedom to be informed.
* Have a pastor that doesn't look at the tithing records of deacons, teachers, choir members, and staff.
* Rely on God to touch the hearts of men/women to give out of love and not fear.
* Collect all church credit cards and let anyone who has to spend money submit an expense report to the church.
* Put the proper controls in place for spending money.
* Review the amount spent by Bellevue staff each month on eating out at local restaurants.
* Start using our eating facilities (like they were originally intended to be used) for lunch.
* Stop allowing the pastor to have personal expenses direct billed to the church.
* No longer allow the pastor to have any more birthday parties for his wife direct billed to the church.
* No longer allow the church to pay for cheerleading travel/expenses any longer.
* Never give any future donations out unless they have been prayed over and thought out.
* No longer be involved thru the pastors office of overcharging parishioners for tour trips led by the pastor.
* Create a separation of fiduciary comingling of staff time and Bellevue resources for personal gain of the pastor and his wife.
* Start publishing the compensation packages of the staff like 99% of the Southern Baptist churces across America do already.
* Revise our compensation package for any minister that is receiving unreasonable pay.
* Revise our bylaws so there is written guidance for our church to operate under.
* Start operating under bylaws like the Southern Baptist Convention does.
* Put restrictions on the same set of men/families filling the finance committee and other committees with a great deal of control.
* Once again place an emphasis on Wednesday Night Prayer Meeting.
* Stop allowing influential leaders to do business with the church unless there is full disclosure.
* Publish all business dealings with anyone who is a member of belleuve.
* Allow the congregation greater knowledge of the budget and where all of the money goes that is spent at Bellevue.
* Stop hording $30,000,000 in the bank and start spending on ministries.
* Let the membership have total knowledge of how we are spending this $30,000,000.
* Stop allowing "pet" projects costing $100,000's to be spent without the knowledge of the church.
* Stop hiring "business" men to be ministers without formal training in seminary.
* Stop having leadership positions be determined by "social status".
* Allow Godly members of Bellevue who have been passed over in the past to fill leadership positions.
* Stop requiring staff members to sign a legal document prohibiting them from talking about the inner workings of Bellevue.
* Stop intimidating staff member and former staff members.
* Stop intimidating members.
* The pastor should not be able to take along men to intimidate any member.
* Trespassing into members neigborhoods or onto property will not be tolerated by Bellevue.
* Stop using the pulpit to preach self serving messages that misuse the scriptures.
* Never allow a pastor to be called again without the congregation knowing who he is before the day of decision.
* Full blown background checks will be done on any future ministers that are hired.
* Future pastors must want to preach on any Wednesday night possible.
* Hire pastors that don't call their parishioners "Hezbollah".
* Reject Warrenism or anypart of Warrenism that has crept into our church.
* Pray that all members who profess to be Believers humble themselves before our Lord.
* Each of us search our hearts to do what God wants us to do.
* Each of us search our hearts to go where God wants us to go.
* Each of us search our hearts to be the person God wants us to be.
* Pray that we can once again fellowhip with each other in love.
* Pray that Bellevue once again would be able worship in Spirit and in Truth.
* Pray that we all have the spirit of forgiveness, love, patience, and long suffering.
excellent list, swtt
ditto SWTT,
I am saving your list. It will be posted right above my resolution:
"less cheese, more work"
Correction in list!
1st on the list was stated as:
* Take the Word that we preach weakly and practice what the Word says.
Please change the weakly to weekly.
I'm not sure if it was a subconscious mistake or not.
Fedupatbbc said:
I am sick over this statement bc I know that Paul Williams was out shopping at Christmas and acted like there was nothing wrong and he did not have a care in the world.
Folks,
These are not the actions of a man shamed by his past "moral failure". These are not the actions of a man expecting a negative outcome of various investigations currently underway. This seriously worries me.
I urge everyone to call the BBC church office this week and ask if Bellevue is no londer funding MABTS.
If you can't get an answer to this, call the seminary....
Are there staff members other than the pastor that have been confided to by someone within the inner circle?
Is there a dissension or disassociation occuring within the inner circle between Harry Smith and David Perdue?
Are each of these two aware of the others actions, attitudes and comments made in the absense of the other?
Does one of these men know specific details of moral misconduct that would be extremely damaging to the other?
How much did each of these men know about the Paul Williams situation?
When did each of them become aware of the Paul Williams situation?
Is one of the two men posturing himself and his position with the intent of discrediting the other if deemed necessary?
Do either of these men know something that they are witholding from the other?
Have these two with the approval of Steve Gaines decided to discontinue support of MABTS?
Pay very close attention to the actions of the leadership over the next several weeks, especially with regard to these two men.
Who is Bryan Miller accountable to other than the pastor?
Who prepared the statement that Bryan Miller read on December 17?
Who authorized the statement to be prepared?
Did the deacon body vote on and approve the statement that was read?
Why did Chuck Taylor not read the statement since he is officially the chairman of the deacons until January 1?
Who does Bryan Miller confide in?
Where does Bryan Miller recieve his direction?
Pay attention and wake up!
Does ECS have a waiting list to enroll a mile long?
Were certain students from the bottom of the waiting list moved to the top for the 2005-2006 school year?
What students were allowed to enroll despite the fact that their name had not come to the top of the waiting list?
Who authorized that these students be allowed to enroll?
Are there financial discounts or deemed scholarships given to certain students?
Who authorized these scholarships?
Pay attention and wake up!
swtt,
That, my friend, was a Freudian slip!
Was anyone else present at the time that Paul Williams and Steve Gaines spoke six months ago?
Who did Steve Gaines reveal information to on what he termed as a confidential meeting that he and Paul Williams had?
Why did he reveal this information to them?
Who confronted Steve Gaines within the past several weeks that led him to believe that the Paul Williams situation had not been resolved?
Is Steve Gaines in a double-bind situation concerning Paul Williams?
Is Paul Williams in a dobule-bind situation concerning Steve Gaines?
Have these two conspired to hide the truth?
Would the truth benefit either of them?
Would the truth damage both of them?
Pay attention and wake up!
Why was David Coombs directed to contact David Brown?
Who directed him to do so?
Why did Jim Barnwell not contact David Brown?
Was Jim Barnwell asked to contact David Brown?
Did Jim Barnwell decline to contact David Brown?
Does Jim Barnwell know more about the situation than David Coombs?
Pay attention and wake up!
swtt- Great list and Dittos!!!
piglet- Excellent point. My wife and I will be calling Bellevue and MABTS this week to check on this, too.
Closetotheinnercircle,
So from what I gather it's going to get worse?
Is there another serious "moral failure" among our leaders that is known, but not being dealt with?
What would be the fallout of dealing with another "moral failure" at the highest levels?
Why would men who pay lip-service to biblical standards, and supposedly believe in them, suddenly forget everything BBC has stood for since 1903? Is it because those standards indict them? Is this why the PW situation has been handled the way it has?
The facts are not always as they seem. Wake up, Bellevue!
Pay attention and wake up!
These are serious questions that need to be addressed and answered. I would share the answers to all of these questions, if I had them. I do not. I can point in the direction that I am aware of inconsistenecies. Some of the answers may be obvious, others will require investigation. Most staff members are silent, none are openly outspoken.
Final questions.
What has been determined from the internal investigation by Bellevue?
Has the internal investigation centered around directing staff members in their repsonse to State and law enforcement investigations?
Has the internal investigation conducted by Bellevue directed staff members of their legal obligations of what they must be disclosed and what does not have to be disclosed to State and law enforcement investigations?
Has the internal investigation conducted by Bellevue actually hindered the State and law enforcement investigations?
ju,
Things getting worse may turn out to be much better depending on whether you are wanting the truth or satisfied with the status quo.
Closetotheinnercircle:
I sure hope that the law enforcement folks are reading your posts. You present some great questions. Maybe we should copy and paste them and send them over to them.. Who is the lead investigator, and what office is he associated with?
I know i am naive, but I have to believe that those folks on staff at BBC are not going to be very skilled at lying and obfuscating. I'm not talking about the Car Dealer and the Saddlemaker and the fence climbers etal. One thing is for sure, if they start rolling those eyes at THEIR questions, it ain't gonna be pretty.
I will pray that some secretary somwehere knows something and will come forward with the truth, even if her boss does not, and even if it is in direct conflict with what he says.
Hopefully, the investigators do not have a 'dog in the fight' ( so to speak) with regard to the internal politics at BBC. This should be soaked in prayer.
Here's a question I just thought of:
These staff members that are being grilled by investigators, do they have an attorney? Do they NEED an attorney? IF so, WHO is paying for the attorney? BBC, or is it coming out of their own pockets?
If this investigation spreads out far and wide, surely ALL those folks can't tell the same lie. There will be a crack in it somewhere. I know that if they interviewed me, I would be singing like a bird in the first 5 minutes!!! God has blessed me with being a VERY bad liar!!
I once heard Cal Thomas speak at an event, about 10 years ago. He said something very poignant, and It is so true:
THE TRUTH HAS A POWER ALL ITS OWN
Friends,
I truly believe that my Wife and I were led to this sermon for a purpose. This touches on many pertinant issues in our church on both sides of these issues. I pray you would listen to it all. Ron Comfort may be known to many of you he was to my wife who suggested we listen to anything we could find. She picked this one for this morning. She tells me this man is a scripturally skilled and Godly man.
Ron Comfort's Doctrine of Confession
Quote: This is actually a controversial point in the Baptist Faith & Message 2000, which Adrian Rogers chaired and Steve Gaines was also in, which says that we are not under condemnation until we reach an age of accountability, and while I do think infants that die will go to heaven, I think they are applying the wrong principles here. It's because of God's mercy, not because we aren't under condemnation (go and read Romans!). Either way, he is not saying we are not born with a sinful nature like some have interpreted that to mean, and if you go back and listen to the sermon "
I have been doing quite a bit of Biblical research in this area for the past year. Mainly because I have a 6 year old. There is NOTHING in scripture that emphatically says children who die go to heaven. I want to believe they do. But, they ARE born in sin. And yes, they are under condemation. IT is a cruel truth we must face. WE do not want to...I know I don't. I am not trying to start a debate here.
Solution? Start teaching scripture and doctrine right away. Don't wait until whatever you believe is the 'age' of accountability. I am amazed children understand more than we think. My daughter knows the difference between sin and a mistake. She understands repentence. She understands heaven and hell. She knows more scripture than many adults at church. When I discipline her, I think in terms of 'shepherding her heart' than I do in terms of just 'discipline'.
There is a great tool at Christian communicators that I recommend for all parents. It is a poster depicting Matthew 7 (The broad road and the Narrow Gate) it is a visual that is easy for them to comprehend. The poster is full of scripture describing what the broad way and the narrow gate are about.
Here is the link. It is only 3.00
http://www.ccwonline.org/bookorder.html
Scroll down to the poster titled Narrow and Wide Gates.
Piper talks about this in a sermon: Our children are never too young to teach doctrine. God honors it. And, you gotta get past only teaching: Jesus loves you. Jesus' first sermon in Matthew was: Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand.
Folks, not to be a drama queen, but our kids will most likely face persecution here in the US. It is our responsibility to prepare them to Magnify HIS name no matter what.
Lindon,
How interesting that you bring this up. Last night my Wife and I had a long discussion bout Lordship Salvation because we were listening to a popular sermon from Paul Washer to the teens. It was a heated conversation to say the least :). Very touchy subject.
By touchy I mean the definition of what is a "work" and what isn't is the crux of many that argue for and against Lordship Salvation.
closetotheinnercircle,
Please e-mail. My address is on my profile. My name is also there so that you know who you are talking to. You might be able to answer a few questions that I have.
Decided to change blogger name. Notaclapper did sound a bit nutty. But, you know, sometimes you feel like a nut . . . .
The reason for this post is that I did not attend BBC this morning and was wondering if there was a big O for Joe Jernigan.
notaclapper,
GREAT question!!! THIS inquiring mind wants to know, too!
One last thing: BEG GOD ALL THE TIME TO SAVE YOUR CHILDREN. Beg Him to seek them.
About the letter posted on this post. I am not so sure the part about David really applies here. David fell on his face in shame after Nathan confronted him. David also suffered several tragedies as a result of his sin. There was 'godly' sorrow that was public.
Notaclapper has now assumed her real aka.
No applause at the 9:30 service.
lily,
I hope that you weren't refering to my note that you were not a nut either.
This is a spiritual battle folks...so fasten your spiritual seatbelts and put on the whole armor of God...it's going to be a rough ride to be sure.
Thoughts to ponder. This is taken from Five "Must" Qualities Of A Gospel Preacher
by Berry Kercheville
A preacher needs to be a genuine servant, not a master. He needs to have the welfare of the church as his number one priority. By the way some preachers speak it is hard to believe that they really love those they are speaking to. A preacher must not put himself first, but in humility of mind esteem others better than himself.
Personal Integrity and Moral Purity. Paul said in Romans 2:21, "You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself?" No man is perfect. Preachers sin and fall short of the glory of God just like other Christians. The question is, does the preacher respond to his failings with confession and repentance as all growing Christians should? Is he growing and making changes in his life where needed? Unfortunately, many preachers forget that they are to be Christians first, then preachers. A preacher must fulfill the basic requirements of being a Christian before he can ever fulfill his ministry. If I am going to help the church grow, I had better grow myself. When a preacher has a history of serious moral lapses, any church who considers him would do well to beware. Nothing will kill a church faster than a preacher whose character is not above reproach.
Here is an excerpt from a site referred to by an earlier poster. Have you seen any of these recently?
ELEVEN MARKS OF PERVERTED AUTHORITY
(1) The claim of direct authority from God, rather than testing things by the Word. Many today have set "personal" revelation and experience above the final authority of God's Word. When this occurs there is no longer any basis for asertaining the will of God, as one would not be able to discern truth from error because the standard is "personal" rather than the Word of God.
(2) The command is to "submit to me," rather than "I will serve you."
(3) The method of leadership is to "order" people around, rather than to appeal for them to do the right things.
(4) There is a dominating, "pushy" drive instead of a dependence on God to direct.
(5) There is a sense of control, rather than a sense of support.
(6) A gift is exploited so that others are made to feel dependent on it.
(7) There is an inflexibility - "don't question me" - "don't touch the Lord's anointed."
(8) There is unapproachability and intimidation - the "aura" around the leader keeps the followers in "awe."
(9) There emerges an organization built around a man and his peculiar emphases instead of around Christ and His Word.
(10) There will be cyclical challenges to the authority figure (which are immediately and forcefully purged).
(11) There is more concern for maintaining the authoritarian structure than there is for caring about the people in it.
4545 I have no idea who you are but I have to wonder at where you are spiritually. You commented how it amazes you some can get on here and point fingers at others when they are light years from where they need to be spiritually.
A common low-down tactic to attack a person, and their spirituality, no less, rather than sticking to the known facts. I guess the known facts are too painful for even you to deal with without defending then by attacking people.
Check your own spirituality rather than judging truth seekers and those who want God's will done in all this. To take any stand for how things have been handled is to be totally blinded and lacking common sence.
You accuse people of "pointing fingers'. No, that is another untruth. A confessed PW and a confessed sg that he knew about all of this six months ago is not pointing fingers. But you sure are swift to point fingers and look at who you are pointing them at: truth seekers.
Isn't it even strange to you, somewhere in your soul, that what is going on is worse or at least as bad as what goes on in the lost world? How is it you are so blinded? Is it the man that blinds you or is it that perhaps you are the one who is light years away from spiritual maturity?
AOG
I agree that the battle is heating up and many things are coming to light.
I had this verse up on the wall during the couple of years that my boys did an extensive study of the full armour and spiritual warfare:
"The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light."
Romans 13:12
Too bad the pastor wasn't here this morning to hear Joe's message...
Of course we started by memorizing Eph. 6:10-18 but I was really tickled when I came across Romans 13:12.
This study really appealed to them at the ages of 10 and 12. Now they are 12 and 14 and they understand this is the battle we have been called to fight.
Funny. I always assumed I was preparing them to battle the forces of darkness in a lost world. I never thought we'd be having this battle in our church....
TruthSleuth,
Sadly, you missed the point of the message 180 degrees.
iwasthere and truthsleuth
I was at GBC. Tell me what the sermon was about at BBC....
notaclapper said...
"The reason for this post is that I did not attend BBC this morning and was wondering if there was a big O for Joe Jernigan."
NO Big O, however, we did stand with tears during Eddie Struble's "MIDNIGHT CRY" during the 11 o'clock service. JJ said that he felt that some there were ready for it (the midnight cry)! - That got an AMEN from my corner!
IWasThere said...
TruthSleuth,
"Sadly, you missed the point of the message 180 degrees."
I was there too, and I did not miss a thing, but it was a message needed by all, including me, you and the "pastor" (sorry, I have a hard time calling him that)
Oh man, I missed Eddie Struble?!!
piglet-
It was about the call to brokenness, taken from Phillippians 3, but also referencing the story of Jesus with Simon in Luke 7.
lindon,
Thanks for dropping by my blog...come by often...drop me an email sometime...I'd like to talk with you.
When a person commits the crime of bugulary and they are caught, they must pay whatever price the state applies to their case and once paid, they are free to live their life as they so choose.
When a person commits the crime of murder and they are caught, they must pay whatever price the state applies to their case and once paid, they are free to live their life as they so choose.
When a person commits the crime of pedophilia and they are caught, they must pay whatever price the state applies to their crime and once paid, they must have their names placed on sexual offender list and be forever known to the world around them as a child molestor.
Ask yourself why?
Because they are seldom if ever cured, and must be monitored always.
The message this morning could apply to anyone BUT those who know what`s really going on at the church will surely apply it to the current situation in one way or another. This is the very reason why Steve Gaines can no longer minister to those who KNOW the TRUTH! No matter how wonderful a sermon he might preach, it will most likely be taken as beating the sheep or evidence that he is a flaming hyprocrite.
I felt that JJ`s sermon was saying look at your own sin instead of looking at other`s but again everything has been tainted by all the poison in the Bellevue well which I just can`t drink , least I die.
Forgetting what`s behind and moving on.
Good scriptural message from Steve Gaines in the latest "NEW BEGINNINGS" newsletter HOWEVER, we can not move on until other VIP scriptures are followed.
Like Matthew 18
I am willing to move on when those who habitually trample the Word of God, start walking in it instead of over it!
I had a thought in the form of a question run across my mind the other day that really bothered me.
The thought was this.
Does Bellevue Baptist Church really exists any longer?
If it does, where are the saints who love the Lord so much that they long to follow the Holy Bible just as it is written?
DaughterofJudah
That was my take on JJ's sermon.Maybe I'm too cynical anymore when it comes to the BBC leadership.One day one of them will get a backbone or moral courage and stand up for truth and we will all have a heart attack.
Grace, watch the first 5 or 6 "applauders" - they are always the same folks in the same spots, staged thruout the worship center. I do not know their names, but I will try to find out and you can ask them why they are always on cue.
******************************
I'm not trying to be rude, but is that REALLY what this blog is all about? I misunderstood -- I thought this blog was created for those who were confused about Bellevue and wanted a different opinion. Looks like you are TOTALLY against anything our pastor does. You must REALLY be looking and paying close attention to all of the "HORRIBLE" things that go on in worship service. I watch the face of my pastor, as I applaud -- to let him know that he IS wanted at Bellevue --- by many I might add. He is humble -- not looking at anyone, and certainly not smiling or begging for the applause. I think it embarasses him. I was thinking earlier that I cannot continue to read this blog. It makes me angry, and puts me me into an unChristianlike attitude...but when I read this comment -- and many more like it...maybe I'm in just the right place for that kind of an attitude. Sad. People who are TRULY confused and looking for answers to their questions better not come here. It is definetly skewed in one direction.
If he was really humble, he would deflect that applause to the Savior. Not just stand there and take it. That's not humility.
BellevueFriend61
Does it bother you that our pastor kept Paul Williams' story of raping his son a secret from the congregation for six months?Does it bother you that PW was allowed to stay on staff and children were exposed to him for six months?
bellevuefriend61,
There are some answers here if you're willing to look, and ignore what you deem skewed. It's like eating fish...eat the meat, chuck the bones. Finding answers is never easy..it requires some work..sometimes finding some things you don't like..but if you're expecting to come here or anywhere and find quick and easy answers...you'll be sadly disappointed..views on both sides of this are skewed...that's the nature of humanity...as they say..sometimes the devil is in the details.
Trucker,
Of course it bothers me. I have 2 children. I was mortified to hear that this man was on staff for 17 years after this heinous act. I cannot imagine what kind of a person can remain on the staff of a church after committing such an act. I am disappointed in the way my pastor handled this situation. However, I don't approve of how situations are handled in my life, but I continue to remain friends with my friends and married to my spouse. I do not feel that Bro. Steve should be asked to resign over this mishandling.
allofgrace,
I'm not looking for answers. Just curious as to what all the hoopla is over here.
BellevueFriend61 said...
I'm not trying to be rude, but is that REALLY what this blog is all about? I misunderstood -- I thought this blog was created for those who were confused about Bellevue and wanted a different opinion. Looks like you are TOTALLY against anything our pastor does. You must REALLY be looking and paying close attention to all of the "HORRIBLE" things that go on in worship service. I watch the face of my pastor, as I applaud -- to let him know that he IS wanted at Bellevue --- by many I might add. He is humble -- not looking at anyone, and certainly not smiling or begging for the applause. I think it embarasses him.
--------
SWTT says,
Are you serious when you say He is humble?
The following may help you reconsider the humble part. People can choose to stick their head in the sand if they wish but don't bash anyone who sees the truth of what is going on. How can you call a pastor who calls his sheep "Hezbollah" humble. How can you call a pastor who upcharges people going on his trips so he can put the cash in his back pocket humble? How can you call a pastor that goes to another church and trashes his own congregation humble? We could go on all night long but the following may help you understand.
swtt said...
New Year's Resolutions for our Beloved Bellevue Baptist Church.
* Take the Word that we preach weekly and practice what the Word says.
* Start holding ministers on staff to the Biblical standards called for.
* Stop calling a homosexual/pedophilia act a "moral failure". Call it an abomination to the Lord.
* Start applying Matthew 18 inside the church, including Steve Gaines and the rest of the ministers.
* Stop allowing the pastor and other ministers to be above reproach.
* Seek God to call a Servant Leader to replace Steve Gaines.
* Ask the Lord to forgive us as a church for winking at the sin that has occurred from our leadership this past year.
* Forgive us for giving standing ovations to a pastor that has shamed our Lord, Bellevue, and his family.
* Stop allowing power to be in the hands of a few men who act unbiblical in church business.
* Ask God to give our leadership discernment on right vs. wrong.
* Demand accountability from the pastor.
* Demand accountability from our church lay leaders.
* All of us to test everything that is done and said with the Word.
* Create in environment where the congregation can ask legitimate questions.
* Have quarterly business meetings where the membership can be a part of what's going on and have the freedom to be informed.
* Have a pastor that doesn't look at the tithing records of deacons, teachers, choir members, and staff.
* Rely on God to touch the hearts of men/women to give out of love and not fear.
* Collect all church credit cards and let anyone who has to spend money submit an expense report to the church.
* Put the proper controls in place for spending money.
* Review the amount spent by Bellevue staff each month on eating out at local restaurants.
* Start using our eating facilities (like they were originally intended to be used) for lunch.
* Stop allowing the pastor to have personal expenses direct billed to the church.
* No longer allow the pastor to have any more birthday parties for his wife direct billed to the church.
* No longer allow the church to pay for cheerleading travel/expenses any longer.
* Never give any future donations out unless they have been prayed over and thought out.
* No longer be involved thru the pastor’s office of overcharging parishioners for tour trips led by the pastor.
* Create a separation of fiduciary commingling of staff time and Bellevue resources for personal gain of the pastor and his wife.
* Start publishing the compensation packages of the staff like 99% of the Southern Baptist churches across America do already.
* Revise our compensation package for any minister that is receiving unreasonable pay.
* Revise our bylaws so there is written guidance for our church to operate under.
* Start operating under bylaws like the Southern Baptist Convention does.
* Put restrictions on the same set of men/families filling the finance committee and other committees with a great deal of control.
* Once again place an emphasis on Wednesday Night Prayer Meeting.
* Stop allowing influential leaders to do business with the church unless there is full disclosure.
* Publish all business dealings with anyone who is a member of Bellevue.
* Allow the congregation greater knowledge of the budget and where all of the money goes that is spent at Bellevue.
* Stop hording $30,000,000 in the bank and start spending on ministries.
* Let the membership have total knowledge of how we are spending this $30,000,000.
* Stop allowing "pet" projects costing $100,000's to be spent without the knowledge of the church.
* Stop hiring "business" men to be ministers without formal training in seminary.
* Stop having leadership positions be determined by "social status".
* Allow Godly members of Bellevue who have been passed over in the past to fill leadership positions.
* Stop requiring staff members to sign a legal document prohibiting them from talking about the inner workings of Bellevue.
* Stop intimidating staff member and former staff members.
* Stop intimidating members.
* The pastor should not be able to take along men to intimidate any member.
* Trespassing into member’s neighborhoods or onto property will not be tolerated by Bellevue.
* Stop using the pulpit to preach self serving messages that misuse the scriptures.
* Never allow a pastor to be called again without the congregation knowing who he is before the day of decision.
* Full blown background checks will be done on any future ministers that are hired.
* Future pastors must want to preach on any Wednesday night possible.
* Hire pastors that don't call their parishioners "Hezbollah".
* Reject Warrenism or any part of Warrenism that has crept into our church.
* Pray that all members who profess to be Believers humble themselves before our Lord.
* Each of us search our hearts to do what God wants us to do.
* Each of us search our hearts to go where God wants us to go.
* Each of us search our hearts to be the person God wants us to be.
* Pray that we can once again fellowship with each other in love.
* Pray that Bellevue once again would be able worship in Spirit and in Truth.
* Pray that we all have the spirit of forgiveness, love, patience, and long suffering.
10:37 AM, December 31, 2006
BellevueFriend61,
You make a statement that the blog is out here to mislead and confuse people. This blog is not to confuse or mislead anyone. Please name anything you have read that is misleading.
Did you attend any of the Communications Committee meetings run by Harry Smith?
Now that was what you could call hoopla or misleading and confusing.
I'm beginning to wonder if you may have a stake in Steve Gaines staying.
BellevueFriend61 said...
Trucker,
Of course it bothers me. I have 2 children. I was mortified to hear that this man was on staff for 17 years after this heinous act. I cannot imagine what kind of a person can remain on the staff of a church after committing such an act.
And who allowed this man to remain on staff,for the last six months with no regard to the safety of your children???
I am disappointed in the way my pastor handled this situation. However, I don't approve of how situations are handled in my life, but I continue to remain friends with my friends and married to my spouse.
So you approve of keeping this man on staff because,you don't approve of situations in your life.Remember he raped his own son do you think he would show more respect for your children
I do not feel that Bro. Steve should be asked to resign over this mishandling.
8:24 PM, December 31, 2006
Would still feel that way if one of you children had been abused by Paul Williams in the last six months knowing that Sreve Gaines could have prevented by removing him
bellevuefriend61
As terrible as this situation with PW has been, I wanted Gaines to step down BEFORE that.
He has displayed an attitude of arrogance toward the membership and staff and lay leadership. He believes that he answers to NOONE except God alone. In other words, he is the ultimate authority in our church and not subject to being questioned by anyone. Atleast that is his view.
This attitude among pastors is becoming very prevalent throughout churchdom and can be compared to cultlike behaviour.
I believe he has apologized for things that have become very public, to keep his cushy job. There are very grevious things he has not apologized for because they aren't on video or audio clips.
If you know a number of staff and layleaders like we do, the stories of his bullying and intimidation, and shutting people up are numerous.
By the way, I don't expect you to take a "Piglet's" word for all this. I'm just telling you I KNOW Steve Gaines is in the Jesus business for what he can get out of it.
swtt
Keep posting you list!!
25+years
You too!!
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