The Commercial Appeal's December 30th letters to the editor are here. You may recognize the writer of the letter entitled "The case calls for a dismissal."
Read the latest (December 27th) from the former "formerly brainwashed Bellevuer" aka "never put your faith in men!" and just think about it. A link to his blog, "Bellevue Baptist Church - My True Story" is in the sidebar on this page.
As he states, he is only expressing his own thoughts and observations which aren't necessarily the thoughts of those on this forum. This was merely a topic meant to generate discussion.
WCRV Radio (AM 640) interviewed Dr. Michael Spradlin, President of MABTS, on Thursday. The show is scheduled to be rebroadcast Saturday at 7:00 a.m., 6:30 p.m., and Sunday at 2:00 p.m. The 30-minute interview can also be accessed here.
Bellevue's website now has the 12-17 and 12-19 statements by Steve Gaines and the video from the 12-20 Wednesday night service here and a description of the Christmas Eve morning and evening services here.
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1 – 200 of 484 Newer› Newest»Quotes by Dr. Adrian Rogers...
"He who angers you, controls you!"
and
"If you would measure your love for the Father, you must measure your love for your brother"
NASS:
Could be, couldn't it? We were refraining from speculation SO it certainly wasn't us.
Frankly at this point, I don't see anything being out of the realm of possibility. What a nightmare.
"This is the day for the man. Where is the man for the day?"--CH Spurgeon
Hi all,
Just wanted to get a post in early and explain that my blog is replete with MY THOUGHTS AND OBSERVATIONS.
It is funny how everything else which was on the table, which was serious enough, was dropped for this story - but that does not make the current story any less AWFUL or WRONG.
Now, however, this man who enjoys having total control has it - the media is waiting, the church is waiting, the world is watching - and the people are split down the middle.
After working with and for PW and after knowing his children, I am crushed for them all that this has happened ... but how did it get out? Maybe I missed it but why did it go public? I know it had to but the pastor, nor his office, nor anyone from the administration leaked this ... it was out on the blogs way before.
The world has been watching the blogs from day one.
Please, everyone, keep Bellevue, PW and his family, and this situation SATURATED in prayer. Seems like it will get darker before the dawn.
NPYFIM
One more thing ...
My thoughts are just an OBSERVATION to get people thinking ... I prayed about it before posting and God has blessed every single one of us with discernment if we use it.
I love BBC, I pray God restores her and creates an amazing revival through this refining.
NPYFIM
If this is true, I give up. I truly give up. If people need for ME to convince them that the harboring of a pedofile is wrong, then there is nothing left to talk about. I don't have the energy. Either you know right from wrong, or you don't. There is no gray area here, and if grown adults, WITH THEIR OWN CHILDREN can make allowances for this man, there's just too much kool aid floating around out there for me to deal with.
Pedofelia THRIVES in secrecy. this is a KNOWN fact. This is not my opinion. Yet BBC is full of folks who will ignore that fact, so they can do what? Stick their brains in their pockets and worship a man who did not care enuf about their children to keep a pedofile that he knew about away from their children?
If parents can be persuaded to abandon the safety of their own children, what in the world can i do or say otherwise to convince them just how wrong this all is?
I am 51 years old, and have been in counseling most of my life for the sins perpetrated on me by my stepfather. It never goes away. I have seen women older than myself cry like a baby over the remnants of incest. It affects every aspect of life for the rest of one's life.
He, like PW, was a respected member of the community, a graduate of Texas A&M, a mechanical engineer, president of the local Petroleum club, President of the local Yacht Club, Vice President of the company he worked for. Who, in 1967, would have believed me? It appears to me, from the throngs of adulation heaped upon SG, that some are still in the 1967 mode. Still ignorant and unbelieving.
As a sidenote, he and my mother did eventually get a divorce, but not until he got his secretary pregnant. His son later killed himself, left a note behind accusing his father of molesting hm when he was a young boy.
I learned how to forgive my stepfather under Dr. Roger's teachings. Does that mean he is off the hook? NO. It means that I no longer injest poison into my own body and expect him to die from it. That is what anger will do to you.
The anger you see exhibited by me on this blog is not directed at my stepfather. It is directed at those who do not seem to understand how devasting incest is, who do not understand that allowing a pedofile to go undetected for 6 months could cause irreparable harm to another human being.
It's time for me to let the anger i feel for those people go, and let Jesus deal with them.. He is far more adept at that than i am.
I, for one, cannot sit in a worship service and watch people stand and applaud a man that would care so little for the applauder's children, that he would look the other way while a pedofile roamed the halls. This, my friends, is how pedofiles succeed. It is how the pedofile in my house succeeded, while my mother looked the other way. It is not healthy for me to watch it all over again.
I do ok with the torment for years at a time. And then something like this happens, and I hear of folks applauding a man that created an unsafe environment for children, and it makes me feel so violated, all over again. As though there is no such thing as disgust for pedofelia. It makes me realize that I have nothing in common with these people. Do they even worship the same God that I do? I don't know the answer to that question.
I wonder, if i were to attend another church, would the people sitting beside me there share the same unconcern for pedofelia? Would they, too, stand and applaud a man if he were to expose their babies to a pedofile?
You see, once you have lived through something like this, everything is measured in a different way.
It would be interesting to know if any of those standing and applauding are incest survivors. My guess would be that they would be few and far between, if at all, because they, above all, understand what it takes for pedofelia to exist: adults looking the other way.
I don't know if attending another church is the answer for me, but i do know this one thing: I can never ever worship at BBC again. I feel hurt and betrayal by not only the leadership but by the people standing and applauding. I"m not sure I can even walk thru the doors of BBC again.
I need to fall on my knees and thank the Lord for giving me discernment. I praise him for that.
Let me close by apologizing to those I have offended on this blog. I am really not a mean person, I am just passionate about this subject.
I have prayed over my words before I hit the button this time.
Keep your children safe.
Blessings
I have been "lurking" here for several months. I am a former Bellevue member and left there in 1997 according to the will of Almighty God.
I am grieved over what is happening. I know people on both sides and my heart is completely broken. However, God is in control, not man and I believe that His will shall reign supreme and His name glorified.
I just wanted to say that I am praying for Bellevue and asking everyone to pray for this church that I have loved with all my heart, all of my 18 years of salvation. Dr. Rogers has and always will be my favorite preacher.
I just wanted to post a link to a great article I read just this morning by Bob De Waay.
I have never read the Purpose Driven Life, I have bought the book, but I never could get past chapter 5.
I just want to worship and love my Lord and I want to witness of His truth to others and raise a godly family.
Here is the link:http://www.erwm.com/BobDeWaay7.htm
God bless you all!
Donna
fedupatbbc,
Both your anger and your torment are understood. My heart goes out to you, and rest assured you are being lifted up before the throne of God.
Please, could someone help me to understand WHY and WHAT this "investigation" is all about? Unless I've missed something it sounds to me like it is a political ploy, to make it appear that "something", when NOTHING is being done to handle a gross bungle-up. What are they invstigating that should not be investigated AFTER PW was immediately fired? His confession? PW's son's verasity? If it all was a dream?
IF, by chance they are investigation whether or not anyone else was involved, why keep the fox in the hen house while doing it? I honestly cannot understand what this latest ploy is all about, except to be USED as some sort of propaganda, to try to remove certqin people from a "HOOK".
Please clue me in. Thanks
bepatient,
I really think you should take the time to go back through some of these threads and hear the cries of those who have been affected by incest. Patience has worn thin, and every standing ovation is just one more slap in the face to those who have suffered from this sin. Every time someone who opposes us comes on here and calls us hate-filled, venom spewing, liars, cult members, idiots, morons, trouble makers, etc etc...tells us to just leave, or as billie would have it...just vote us out...our patience is put further to the test. You may well succeed in either forcing us to leave in disgust, or voting us out...but I've said it before and I'll say it again...if that happens, you need to consider this...in the weeks and years to come...if he slides by on this, with the support of the congregation..you'll see worse than this..and he'll have such a grip on this church, that you won't be able to get him out even if your life depended on it..but there'll be no one left who has the nerve to call it what it is any longer..or worse yet, no one will even care. Think on that.
Well said, AFG. I cannot help but think about the prophets, how they were mocked and verbally treated when they spoke out the truth. I'm just amazed to the core over the acceptance of all that is double-minded and in the shadows and the rejection of all that is true and facts. I never thought I'd see this day at Bellevue. I thought the flock had been taught right from wrong better than that and the difference between sin, which is leven and is to be removed and God's true grace.
fedup,
I am so touched by your post - it takes a lot of courage to post like that. I hope others will understand the depth of your hurt and the depth of your convictions in getting Paul Williams away from the children sooner than 6 months. I don't understand the scope of the "investigation" either - What are they "investigating"? If I kill somebody and tell you about it, what is there to investigate? I just told you I'm guilty; what's the problem that you need to investigate? I just don't get the leadership at BBC anymore. Maybe their investigating how they can spin this to their best advantage.
karen
rod almondmartanti wrote:
"IF, by chance they are investigation whether or not anyone else was involved, why keep the fox in the hen house while doing it? I honestly cannot understand what this latest ploy is all about, except to be USED as some sort of propaganda, to try to remove certqin people from a 'HOOK'."
It's damage control, pure and simple.
This is just a thought, not based upon any known fact, but let's say someone went to the church's "investigators" and said something might have happened to his child. What if, instead of reporting it to the real authorities who are investigating all this, little Johnny were to be offered a 12-year scholarship to ECS, a 4-year scholarship to Union University, and maybe by that time that mean old Mike Spradlin will be gone and Johnny can have a full scholarship to MABTS, too? It's just a thought, again, not based in fact or upon any personal knowledge, but something to think about.
As I read NPYFIM’s post on his blog, what immediately sprang to mind was the theme from the SCT a few years back (you can find me singing and dancing…well…making an effort anyway…. in the video if you have it!) “Anything Can Happen” and the song (Sturnavent wrote?) went “Anything can happen…happen at Christmas…..”. Wow. How prophetic was that?!
I actually disagree with the thoughts expressed in that post. In the current environment, I don’t think it’s possible to cover up a trip to the bathroom! It seems that if THE PASTOR had his way, PW would still be counseling rape victims and interviewing nursery workers today. (Or maybe not till next Tuesday because of the Holiday, but you get the picture). Only this blog and Haywood’s constant vigilance has prevented that.
To believe that it was intentionally made public as part of a strategy, you would have to think of THE PASTOR as almost “diabolical”. (One might accuse him of being pathological, but diabolical is a bit of stretch IMHO.) This was most certainly a case of the cart jumping in front of the horse, with the driver almost losing control of the cart. This PW thing had to have caught him up short, and I just can’t believe he saw it as a “relief” from other issues. If anything, it’s only made the problem worse for him. It shines a public, glaring light on his lack of wisdom and judgment.
I do believe that the opportunity is being seized to further exercise control of the church…er... ‘organization’. (Read here “develop new policies and procedures”, “give David Coombs more exposure”, etc).
Having said that, there are some telling questions on how this came to light that must be answered before it’s all over. I’m leaning toward the “the family brought this up because of more current events than just 17 years ago” theory. I would have to hear that from CW’s (either one) mouth before believed it though. (Before you email me or respond, I know about the “file” theory. At this point, that’s just gossip and idle speculation not worthy of discussion. Although, with the way things have played out, ‘anything can happen’)
I do not for one second buy the “PW waltzed into THE PASTOR’s office one day and said ‘there’s something I need to tell you’” theory of discovery. PW is not stupid, and had to have seen the way THE PASTOR is willing to toss you under the bus if it suits his ends. I would buy some calculating going on, but more on PW’s part than THE PASTOR. I just can’t believe that he didn’t resign on his own…either 6 months ago or three weeks ago. He must either believe he has serious ‘air cover’ on the issue, or is deluded himself.
I agree with anyone who says that “enemy who is not flesh and blood” is behind all these revelations, reactions and recriminations. (Like the alliteration?)
I also believe that God is firmly in control, and will work this, another example of human imperfection, to HIS ends.
On a lighter note…A little off topic, but maybe not...
There were two cartoons in today’s newspaper, (here and here) that my mind instantly saw them as commentary on culture and more specifically, the current situation with the leadership at Bellevue. If you get the parallel, good, if you don't get it, feel free to ignore and keep scrolling...
Fed up
I can't imagine going through this situation and having abuse in your past. It must really hurt.
I have not suffered from child abuse. Even so, the cult like atmosphere at our church, and the unconditional praise of the pastor ragardless of his actions is overwhelming to me at times.
This thing is so much bigger than we are. We must make ourselves available to God so that He can do His work through us because He is the only One who can restore Bellevue.
In the meantime, we have to stand firm. I will not bow to a man. I would rather be thrown into the fiery furnace of criticism and character assasination.
After all, what is the alternative? Stay and worship at the alter of the almighty Steve Gaines or surrender all that God has built through Dr. Rogers, us, and those before us? God forbid.
As to this theory that Gaines is using this PW thing as a diversion...I would not put anything past him since, obviously, the end justifies the means in his narcissistic world.
It's a shame that members of BBC are so easliy manipulated.
Dear FedupatBBC,
Please don't give up on THE church, but it may be time to get away from Bellevue, at least for a season. When all the SG controversy first came out, I made the statement, "I won't let them run ME off - I was here first." But after a while it became apparent that it was doing me more harm than good to continue attending Bellevue. I would leave every service frustrated - either because something offensive was said or done in the service, or because the service was "normal" but yet I knew that the man standing in the pulpit was lacking in integrity and humility.
I got some wise counsel from some people I respect:
- God will protect His church, but that is no guarantee that any given local congregation can expect to survive forever. The local congregation started by the Apostle Paul at Ephesus is not still around, but THE church still survives.
- Tending to your own spiritual well-being is more important than staying at a particular church just because you've gone there a long time, have friends there, teach there, etc. You can't survive on yesterday's blessings.
I somehow had the mindset that Bellevue was God's headquarters and that every other church out there was just a remote outpost. That was pure pride on my part. By visiting other churches I have learned that God works and moves in all kinds of churches - Bellevue does not have a monopoly on God.
Like you, I want to bang my head against the wall in disbelief that people still enthusiastically support a pastor that fails to follow the clear teaching of scripture on how to deal with gross sin on the part of a minister on staff. I've given up on trying to convince the masses that they are wrong. I have decided (to borrow a phrase from Dr. Rogers) to "saturate this place (Bellevue) with my absence." I am past the point about worrying about who, if anyone, is gloating over my departure.
I grieve for you that you were physically abused and that loved ones turned a blind eye to the situation. The fact that you are able to forgive is testament to God's working in your life.
"For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." I Cor. 14:33.
Memphis said...
I have a question, and it is just a question:
I have heard that Mrs. Rogers asked them to change the statement about PW before it was read. Does anyone know when she asked the statement to be amended?
I was actually surprised to hear that she knew what the statement said before it was read?
Memphis, I cannot say that she knew what statement was to be read exactly. Just that is was going to be discussed. Because of that, Mrs Rogers had asked specifically for them to announce the fact that per PW, Dr Rogers and Bob Sorrell had no knowledge of PW sin. Per Brian Miller, he acknowledged that her request was in the original statement, but SG had them take it out.
If they told her ahead of time and they did not testify to the truth, maybe they were trying to add to her pain. It is evident the "Leadership" has not regard for Dr Rogers or his family. Only to attempt to use them when it is convenient!
If you know the truth and have the ability to tell the truth and let others know the truth, why would you want to shade the truth or leave rumors to make people believe otherwise?. It is just more of what we come to expect from our new "leadership".
You see, these men have already USED the reputation of the teachers, deacons, and leadership at BBC. Since their is NO credibility left, they now have to try to invoke others good name. What SHAME!
10:37 AM, December 29, 2006
To Fire_them_all:
Exactly!
"I assure you, anyone who sneaks over the wall of a sheepfold, rather than going through the gate, must surely be a thief and a robber!
For a shepherd enters through the gate.
The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep hear his voice and come to him. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out."
John 10:1-3 NLT
FINANCE GUY!!
Those cartoons are HYSTERICAL!!! Time for a new phrase folks; no more "fox in charge of the henhouse". It's now:
You put the vampire in charge of the blood drive!
You made me spit Chai Latte this orning and I don't do that for just anybody.
Karen (still laughing out loud)!
fedupatbbc,
Thank you so much for sharing this. I know what you're going through. Last night I felt that pain again; this time from my husband, who refuses to hold SG or PW accountable. His justification? AR chose SG, so that's good enough for me. On PW: I'm concerned for his redemption; we all have sinned!
I am not eloquent with words, so I cannot even begin to describe to you my thoughts or feelings then. I know I really felt betrayed. We said a lot of things; it was not a good evening. So now there is this division in our home.
I started wondering what did I go through all of that for (the incest/abuse as a child) if no good is going to come of it? To me, it's like incest victims have been abused all over again. Last night I felt again like I did as a child when no one would believe me. Sadly it's still "church people".
As I shared on this forum a few weeks ago, my dad was a southern baptist choir director who incestously abused my two older sisters and myself. For years!! I told; NO ONE believed me!! It continued!! We were always fearful to have girlfriends over because he would try to be a little too "friendly" with them also!
He had numerous affairs with ladies in the choir and elsewhere. He also became an alcoholic, a wife beater, and even tried to kill me one night when I was 11-yo.
This man died at age 58 in another city (away from all his family). He never got better; he only got worse.
I just feel for this to have not been dealt with swiftly AND at the time it was made known is all but giving carte blanche to other pedophiles out there. I cannot go back to BBC right now either. Thank God He did use AR's preaching the word and the Women's Ministry to start me on a path of healing and trusting. Perhaps that's one of the reasons I feel so betrayed. I've likened my church to my home and family.
I-Flyaway,
I'm touched by your testimony. I pray that your husband would extend more grace and understanding to you given your history. You should point out to your husband that it should be AR that picked SG. It should be God's doing. If he truly believes that AR picked SG then please relay to him the fact that at least one person who posts here knows undeniably that AR asked SG to resign. I don't know what I would do if my wife and I weren't of one mind on this situation. It would be terribly difficult.
Everyone someone more able to call script to mind is needed here. Can any of you provide some scripture that She can stand on tonight that might bring healing to her family? Something that will show her husband that he shouldn't put his faith in AR or in SG but in God's word and grace. I know somebody can help here. Let's help heal this rift.
Let's not forget that if sg honestly wanted to "deal" with it, and if he had any real intention of an "investigation" he would have done that SIX MONTHS AGO! He sat on this informaation for six months. SIX MONTHS AGO! And we aare suppose to believe they want to look into it and "handle" it and there is a CONCERN? IT WILL BE SEVEN MONTHS OR MORE OF "treading water" before they come to some sort of conclusion. SG had no intention of dealing with this. UNBELIEVABLE! Unfortunately, it got out and he got caught holding the bag. It is too late for a bandaid. There should have been surgery.
As for how he has treated an older woman of God, who has a reputation beyond reproach, and who's husband is still known for his integrity, is beyond anything imaginable. It was down right evil for him to treat Mrs. Rogers request and Dr. Rogers reputation with such disdain. That is base. And why there isn't an uproar from the congregation, is unbelievable.
I feel like we are in the twilight zone or the beginning of apostacy.
Oh, they're just spinning.
Oh, they're drinking the Kool-Aid.
Oh, they're knee-deep in a conspiracy.
Oh, somebody might--just as a thought, mind you--get scholarships for a child from high school through (ahem) seminary as a juicy little bribe. Of course, that's just spitballing...
Please stop it.
You folks have just as much of a responsibility to engage in civil discourse, minus the invective, as does the Bellevue staff and leadership.
And yes, I'm still waiting for a business meeting, but no doubt it'll be after the first of the year.
Now, it's a beautiful day outside. If you haven't had lunch yet, get out and enjoy the day. A little fresh air might do you good.
--Mike
for the sake of others I've copied the following from http://formerlybrainwashedbellevuer.
blogspot.com/
Sammy said...
This situation with BBC is affecting my family in a very negative way. We are divided on the issue, our beloved church has become a public scandel, some of us don't know if we should even attend this Sunday...on and on it goes. What's my view? Whatever God wants. I'm on His side. I can only imagine how the unsaved look at BBC now. Who in their right mind is going to visit Bellevue now? If I wasn't a member, I wouldn't! We need a miracle!
sammy
-------
Take heart Sammy.
First tell God out loud, "I will do anything you tell me to do. I just want to be in your will. I seek nothing other than pleasing you. Please speak clearly and simply to me. Please have mercy on me Father and speak to me."
If you mean it - He will answer. If you don't mean it or are too afraid to surrender to "anything" you may not hear from Him in your heart. And that is what we all need - to personally hear from Him in our own heart.
Then fast, pray, remove all distractions, seek Him with a whole heart, do what He says...peace will accompany His instructions - it will confirm His instructions.
Andrew
Scripture presents the truth so much better than any of us are able. Do not be the “mockers” Jude refers to who cause divisions. Wait for mercy of the Lord while having mercy on others.
Jude 17-25
17 But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ,
18 that they were saying to you, “In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts.”
19 These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit.
20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.
22 And have mercy on some, who are doubting;
23 save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
Dear I-flyaway,
I am blown away by the multiple testimonies on this blog - just today! - of people who have been sexually abused by a family member.
As to whether or not Dr. Rogers handpicked SG, my answer is, "what does it matter whether he did or didn't play a direct role in selecting him?"
Let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that Dr. Rogers DID handpick SG. Does that mean that SG is to be followed blindly regardless of what he says or does, for the rest of his life? Upon what scripture could a person possibly draw that conclusion?
God selected Saul to be Israel's first king, but then later God told the prophet Samuel, "I regret that I have made Saul king.(1 Samuel 15:11) Of course, God is perfect and doesn't make mistakes, so he wasn't expressing regret for making a mistake, but rather regret that the people clamored for a fallible human king rather than being content to have God as their king. But the point is this, Saul was hand-picked by God, but then rejected by God. A pastor selected by men could expect no less if he becomes disobedient.
As for Adrian Rogers, his picks were not 100% perfect - he picked Paul Williams, Dave Brock, Ken Babrick, Mikeal Carrier, and Jim Gillentine, along with others who left the gospel ministry (not necessarily for moral failures). Being hand-picked by Adrian Rogers is not a guarantee of sucess.
I challenge everyone here to go back through my posts- I have been nothing but kind and have truly tried to hear everyone out. I read almost every post here and try not to skim them because I think it is too easy to take things out context that way...
My desire for Bellevue is that everyone could find a resolution that allows them to stay and worship there.
But if one more person calls "us" Kool-Aid drinkers or sheep I think I am going to go insane. We are supposed to respect what you have to say in the same breath you call us names?
I find it insulting and very unbecoming of people who call themselves Christians. I wonder if you would call me that to my face.
Because there is a really good chance some of us know each other.
The ones who cause divisions are the ones who sin or pervert the Word of God, Not the ones who stand up for truth and God's Word. Division is a direct result of sin and falling from truth. Falling from handling God's work God's way.
We are to be salt and light and not "seeker friendly". When God came to earth, men hated Him and crusified Him. Seeker friendly? The world hated Jesus and they will hate those who belong to Him.
NO MAN SEEKS AFTER GOD, NO NOT ONE! Seeker friendly? Who seeks? God said no one. To be a friend of the world is to be an enemy of God.
Seeker friendly is to be pleaser. That automatically disqualifies one from pleasing God. God says it is either or.
Mockers mock sin and take it lightly and don't deal with it. God hates sin.
bepatient,
Please don't go insane. I've seen the same things you have, but not everyone here is guilty.
I've seen faithful, trusting, godly people being called idiots, blind, sick, perverts, pedophiles, drunkards, goosesteppers, liars, cultists, and everything else imaginable simple because they want to believe their pastor. They've been called non-Christian, ignorant of Scripture, prayerless, and even terrorists.
Me and my sister have gotten a lot of abuse from pointing out that some people were speaking out of hatred, but if this isn't hateful anger directed at Dr. Gaines' supporters, what is it?
fedupatbbc wrote:
If pedafelia repulsed you, you would not still be defending the status quo at BBC.
You can't have it both ways, it either repulses you or it doesn't. It's clear where you stand.
Please stay away from my children.
Are these the words of Jesus? Could someone point out any possible benefit of saying something like that will solve any problems?
Bellevue Friend said, "I hope that sometime in the New Year the Bellevue membership can at long last have a much needed Business meeting."
I can certainly understand your logic in this...in having a business meeting. Seems that would be the place to settle a dispute. However, it is my understanding that this is the very place where people get 'kicked out'. So...pay close attention. :)
A real business meeting where the congregation was notified prior to the meeting and allowed time to make plans to attend could present a very serious problem for SG. It would allow both sides of this issue to be heard clearly by the entire congregation. If that time does come there will have to be a man or woman that can stand up and give the biblical reasons that SG and others in leadership are no longer qualified in a loving and compassionate way. Otherwise I fear that person would be booed off stage by their Christian brothers. Any suggestions as to who would/could do it and has the command of scripture that it would require?
David Brown said on yesterday's thread...
"What I am against is not dealing properly when there is suspected abuse. And if my fellow Southern Baptists think that this is just a Catholic Church problem, you need to pull your heads out of the sand. Some of you like to do investigations. Then do this for me. Just google "Baptist sexual abuse." But let me warn you, it is very ugly and nasty. It is not something you are going to be happy about. This is not a Dr. Gaines issue but a real dark cloud that hangs over all of the SBC. And the people that are in position to do something about it are refusing just like our Catholic counterparts.
Want proof? Google another name then, "Christa Brown." Christa is a victim herself that has tried in vain for many years to get the SBC leadership to deal with this issue honestly and with transparency. All she ever gets is excuses, stonewalling and in some cases out right lies."
Well,
When I read this post, I had already spent several hours reading other web-sites and had already been crushed about what I had found out.
You all know that a week ago I was pleading with ya'll to not rush to judgement. That there had to be something more to this than was being told.
I have prayed about this and honestly believe God has told me to quit supporting ANY SBC church with my tithes and offerings.
I am now more cynical than ever. I used to tell people that, out of all the denominations, the southern baptist was the denomination closest to being perfect in following the inerent Word of God. Now I find out that the leadership is corrupt.
So now I'm totally dismayed. I can not, in good conscious, support ANY other denomination because they are all way off. And now the end has come for me in supporting the SBC.
Bottom line, I have to now weed thru all of the non-denominational churches out there in hopes of finding one that is not teaching false doctrine. I don't know if there is one out there.
And don't anyone suggest to me to try GBC, Bartlett, Faith, Lakeland, etc... They still have the baggage of the organization that they belong to.
All this turmoil with the "last faith (denomination)" to stand for honesty and integrity and not perverting the Word of God, leads me to believe that the antichrist is right around the corner and about to come on the scene.
God have mercy on us all.
In Jesus' Sweet Name,
Mark Wiley
Hi Friends of Bellevue,
Like so many, I dearly loved Adrian Rogers. I pastored a Southern Baptist congregation in Memphis for some years and I received rich blessings from him and Bellevue Baptist Church.
I no longer live in Memphis. I have never met Dr. Gaines and I know few of your current leaders. From my vantage point I believe unwise decisions have been piled on top of unwise decisions, ever compounding the problems. I am praying for them and your church daily.
I am interested in the internet as a medium to foster change at Bellevue, in the SBC, and in the evangelical world at large. I am excited to see bloggers as the agents for change. Some are blogging pastors, others are laymen like most of you. Bloggers are now holding leaders to a level of accountability that is wise and biblical. Pastors can no longer run their churches as if they were private businesses. It warms my heart when I see serious theological debates among laymen. Christians must saturate themselves with His Word. Some of you are being challenged to do that through this blog. Blogs are a great development for the evangelical world. The ministry has been corrupted by the worldly temptations of money and power and it must be reigned in.
As agents of change, you, the bloggers, have a high responsibility and duty. You must speak to one another in love and be faithful to the Word of God. Some of you have done that. Others have failed miserably. I do not want to single any bloggers out. I just want to caution you to take your role as bloggers in this forum seriously. As a pastor I believe standing for truth is always the right thing to do. Demanding a child molester be removed from the ministry is right. How could it be otherwise? However, be careful not compromise your own integrity while fighting your fight.
I propose a poll of bloggers be taken. The poll can be a formal front page poll or you can answer within posts. I suggest you take a poll of forum readers to determine which bloggers are most influential. I do not propose a popularity contest. Instead, give serious thought to which bloggers you read and take seriously. Consider why you trust that blogger or bloggers. What is it about that blogger that makes his or her comments trustworthy?
I predict the bloggers who are most influential do not participate in name-calling. They are thoughtful and respectful of others. Often I respect bloggers with whom I disagree. I respect them because of their tone. Some know how to disagree without being disagreeable. I predict the most trusted bloggers are not given to fits of emotion and fancy. I think you get the point.
My goal is for all of you to follow the lead of these more influential bloggers. I pray you will work to “raise the bar” in your conversation. Keep doing what you are doing. Please try to do it in a more Christ-like manner. Many read what is said here. Make sure you have an impact you can be proud of.
If you adopt my idea of a poll I believe the results will be enlightening. How about it Ms. Moderator? I have a couple of favorites and I am sure everyone else does as well. This old pastor has been challenged by some of your bloggers. For now, I will keep my favorites to myself.
I chose the nom de plume “Habbukuk” because he was a prophet who asked how long God would let the wicked oppress the righteous and who learned that the righteous live by faith. We must all live by faith.
May God bless Bellevue.
I keep hearing people say that at business meetings is where people get booted out of the church. I have only been at BBC for alittle over 5 years. In that time I have never heard of BBC (or any church I have belong to) voting someone out of the church. A couple of questions:
1. Is there a mandate on how a congragation votes someone out of the church?
2. Has BBC ever voted anyone out of the church?
3. Is there any proof or documentation that SG has ever had someone voted out any church?
4. Is that a real concern that some people have? (that they will be voted out?)
Fedup,
You have expressed everything that I feel because I am an incest
SURVIVOR!!!! I often think some people do not truly understand the turmoil that a survivor actually faces. I can say that it affects your daily walk in life. It took me many years to work on forgiveness (and that was only with Jesus Christ could I forgive) and I have to say, sometimes, I still break down from the memories. I used to think that because I got so upset when the topic was discussed that I had not truly forgiven that person. But, I know now that I have truly forgiven the past and I think God never wants me to forget about it. It makes me more aware of situations and I have learned to EDUCATE my children.
I remember back when I worked as a voluntary children's worker at Bellevue and having to fill out that form and one of the questions were about being sexually abused. Well, I cried and cried over that question. I even called the church and asked "WHY"? (Actually, I knew why but I felt like I was being abused all over again.) I listened to their thoughts over the phone and then I prayed about it. So, on the form, I marked "NO". To me, I had dealt with the pain and it was in the past and being counseled would have only brought it back to the surface. I thank God for allowing me that peace because if I had been counseled by the minister in question, I would be devastated.
Fedup, I want you know that I love you and will be praying for you! :0)
ju said:
"A real business meeting where the congregation was notified prior to the meeting and allowed time to make plans..."
Yes ju, you are right. But please listen to me...these business meetings are usually well orchestrated by the pastor and his lead men and they literally hijack your church. These business meetings are usually a 'surprise attack'...the only informed sources are the ones planning the invasion. They will have their armies out in droves to vote you out. And you will not know it is coming. Normally, they have enlisted new members and have brainwashed them to elicit their votes. I pray things will not come to this at Bellevue...but it surely looks like this could be a real possibility. We are praying for you.
Mark,
I'm sorry to hear about how your realization has affected you. My Wife and I were talking about this subject last night. Of course we went through the same thing a couple months ago. Let me tell you my Wife is a Franklin Road Baptist girl if anybody knows what that means. Born and raised in the Baptist faith and schooled there as well. She was hard on me when I was alerted to the blog and began reading and posting. She took the position that MANY are taking that it should have been handled inside the church never in public that it was all ridiculous little stuff. And she even personally knows Mark Sharpe from work so she had that to deal with as well. Over time as the points brought up here got more and more difficult to believe she began to see things just weren't right. I can't tell you how many "That is just ridiculous it can't have happened that way" moments we've both had. Now if a born and bred Baptist can have a change of heart on these issues I know there's hope that many may see the light at some point. Concerning your search for a place to Worship, we both thought it's almost to the point that it's up to US as individuals to get into the Word of God and worship that way. As some have said far more elloquently than I you don't need a preacher a pastor a church or a congregation to Worship Christ. Consequently I have gotten ready for us to study the bible this coming year with a goal of reading it all the way through. Probably seems like a small goal to most of you but it'll really be the first time in years that I've been in the bible like I should be. For the last several years I've relied on AR and SG to serve up my Bible to me. Maybe after this coming year things will be resolved at BBC and we could return. I'll pray for that to happen.
"these business meetings are usually well orchestrated by the pastor and his lead men and they literally hijack your church. These business meetings are usually a 'surprise attack'...the only informed sources are the ones planning the invasion. They will have their armies out in droves to vote you out"
I hope BBC does have a business meeting, and I also hope that this is not the reaction after the business meeting.
I also do not believe that there is any way that everyone that feels the need to speak will have time to speak, it would drag on for hours with alot of the same things being brought up over and over. It might not be a bad idea to have a "spokesperson" to speak on behalf of your issues. I am just worried that even if there is a business meeting, that people will still not be happy (which I know is relying on a number of things that occurs in the meeting, i.e availabilty to speak, who is in attendance, and questions being answered)
fedup,
Thank You for having the courage to share your story. I was abused as a child as well and I know that telling the story can be almost as painful as the events. Please know that many of us understand completely. You are not alone.
I used to wonder why God would allow me to have the childhood I had. I really believe it helped make me who I am as a wife, mom, and grandmother. Even now, though, I can feel that same loneliness and hurt if I think about it much. I am greatful God helped me forgive those who hurt me. That allowed the much needed healing to begin.
Again, know that you are loved and prayed for.
JU & eveyone
Great news to hear JU & wife will read the Bible thru this year! I cannot help but think all SBC churches could benefit if 30,000 people would do the same!
FYI the Firm Foundations study is an excellent study that will wonderfully complement your Bible reading.
May I also recommend the Navpress Topical Memory System
You will exit the new year with far deeper understanding of the Bible than you enter it.
To all of the victims that are posting here. Words fail me but know that you have touched my heart and you are in my prayers daily.
Thank you habbukuk for the guidance and encouragement. Please continue to pray for the members of Bellevue as well as the abuse victims
Has there always been a description of the Christmas Service posted on the Bellevue website? I saw the description and well, it really bothered me.
I'm not sure how to link on here, but if you go to Bellevue's website theres a link that reads "O Come All Ye Faithful" that gives a description of the service, including the Standing O Gaines got.
koragg wrote:
"Has there always been a description of the Christmas Service posted on the Bellevue website? I saw the description and well, it really bothered me.
"I'm not sure how to link on here, but if you go to Bellevue's website theres a link that reads "O Come All Ye Faithful" that gives a description of the service, including the Standing O Gaines got."
Here it is.
Me, too.
NASS
NBBOC...
Exactly who is it that the Bellevue congregation is worshipping? This is bizarre.
gbc member
you are right!! Exit the year after starting with the Word daily. I started last year and have started every day at 5am in the Word and have finished the Bible twice. Word and Spirit! I can't think of a better way to start the day or year.
I just saw the write-up on Bellevue.org...Lord help us.
allofgrace said...
"I just saw the write-up on Bellevue.org...Lord help us"
That has been on the bellevue.org site for several days - although there were only a few people I know that were there, none of whom stood during the standing O - however they were highly offended not only by the standing O during the Sunday, Christmas Service, they were deeply offended by the waving Santa at the entrance and all the hoopla signs of support - "disgraceful" was the word used.
This just goes to show how low the fellowship has sunk, and it will probably get worse before the Lord sees fit to do some deep cleaning. God have mercy on us all if we continue to tolerate this behavior!
allofgrace,
1. Do you think that there were any political motivations behind that account?
2. What do you think that the rest of the SBC thinks about it?
nutlessmom said...
Fedup,
You have expressed everything that I feel because I am an incest
SURVIVOR!!!! I often think some people do not truly understand the turmoil that a survivor actually faces.
They not want to understand.To do so will point the blame to SG for gross neglience.
How many letters have we seen on the blog expressing sympathy for PW,and at the same time call us unChristian hate mongers.Sorry but I am angry at at SG for allowing this molester to remain on staff and hiding it from the church.
For those of you who defend what SG did have NO MORAL COMPASS
You can call this post hateful , but it is the truth and my friends the truth can HURT
tim,
It's hard for me to see it as anything but political. Why else would that account take up space on the website? It's a message to those of us who are calling leadership to account for what has transpired of late.
As for the SBC and what they think of it...the silence is deafening.
The Christmas Service description on the BBC site sounded more like the Triumphal Entry.
Placing it on the website is an indication of BBC leadership approval of the standing "O" in a worship service.
A standing "O" at a business meeting does not bother me, but to orchestrate one at a worship service and then celebrate it on the website is a woeful misallignment of priorities.
Sad.
Dr. Steve J.
allofgrace & bereans,
I don't believe that there was a political motivation for timing the release of the PW situation. It seems Steve Gaines would have been satisfied and silent on this issue if he had been able to have his way.
It still causes a great deal of concern to me as to why he chose to conceal this issue. I mean, it goes far beyond stealing a pack of Juicy Fruit. The "heart felt compassion" just doesn't quite ring true. It would be hard to accept a life long friend revealing information like this, much less someone that you had only known for a short period of time.
Bereans,
I am with you the number that have suffered thru abuse of this nature is staggering. Our country is incredibly sick.
tim,
I was speaking to the write up on Bellevue.org...as to the blogsite NASS referred on the front page and what he suggested on that site...I can't speak to..I can only repeat what I said earlier..at this point nothing would surprise me.
All of Grace said, "As for the SBC and what they think of it...the silence is deafening." in a post to Tim.
Well, I can't speak for the Southern Baptist Convention at large, but in relation to the CGM behind all this chaos I can tell you what it's SBC President Frank Page has to say about the situation in general, which would be indicative of his backing of Steve Gaines. And that is:
SBC President Frank Page: "I see many valuable contributions to the SBC coming from the Emergent Leaders Movement. I believe it is a positive thing to see a broader number of participants in our convention’s direction. I personally applaud this movement."
That about cleared it up for me.
AOG,
You have mail!
Ezekial wrote: BTW, does anyone wonder why preachers avoid the OT? We have been taught "we are in the NT now". I think it has everything to do with not wanting you to see the repetitive picture of God's chosen people falling away from God and his punishment and wrath. That is the same reason they don't preach out of Revelations. They claim they don't understand it or it makes them uncomfortable......">>
Excellent point! I have a different perspective of why the OT is not exposited much these days: Law.
Law convicts us of our sin. What other measure/standard is there for sin than the law? How do we know we are sinners except by the law? How do we know what to repent of except by the law? How can we really understand exactly what Jesus did for us on the cross if we do not know the law?
Ray Comfort has an excellent sermon called: Hell's best kept secret. Google it. It is worth it.
It seems that the storm clouds keep rolling in darker and stronger by the day.
lindon,
Also how could we know the Righteousness of Jesus, except by his fulfillment of the law. There seems to be more and more preaching concerning the love and forgiveness of Jesus while completely ignoring the fact that he is the God of Righteousness and Judgement. Without Righeousness and Judgement revealed thru the law is not love and forgiveness relegated to humanism.
Did anyone get to listen to Mike Fleming?
Helloooooo out there!
(Piglet waiting for a response and hoping her husband shows up for dinner.....)
Long time lurker, long time supporter of this blog. I cried today when reading some of the posts. After years of counseling abuse victims, I know their pain is real, and the actions of Bellevue leadership, particularly SG, is as disgusting as the actions of a pediphile. How else can our voices be heard? What is your collective opinion of us all going to the sanctuary early on Sunday and getting as many seats down front as we can. Then when the O's begin, the front section will remain seated - for all the cameras to see. Once SG begins his self serving sermon, those of us who cannot stomach to remain can quietly get up and leave. Prayer is the answer, God is the answer; however, taking a stand - by sitting - could at least send a message to the blind followers. Your thoughts please.
Piglet
Mike Fleming was off and had a substitute host, no mention of Bellevue to my knowledge
watchinghistory
Thanks! =)
Ezekial wrote: BTW, does anyone wonder why preachers avoid the OT? We have been taught "we are in the NT now". I think it has everything to do with not wanting you to see the repetitive picture of God's chosen people falling away from God and his punishment and wrath. That is the same reason they don't preach out of Revelations. They claim they don't understand it or it makes them uncomfortable......">>
Linden wrote: Excellent point! I have a different perspective of why the OT is not exposited much these days: Law.
Law convicts us of our sin. What other measure/standard is there for sin than the law? How do we know we are sinners except by the law? How do we know what to repent of except by the law? How can we really understand exactly what Jesus did for us on the cross if we do not know the law?
i-flyaway writes:
The Law is our Teacher to bring us to Christ. This topic is interesting (or should I say confirming) to me also. Yesterday I received Precept Upon Precept's Bible study "A Divided Heart; A Divided Nation", course 1 in the Kings & Prophets series. I plan to begin this study in January.
Rom 15:4 "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."
1Cr 10:11 "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."
I believe this study will have great revelance to my life right now. Some of the lessons are "Man's Quest for Power and Prominence" "If My People...", "When Our Hearts Turn Away", "Forsaking God, "the Essence of Pride".
One of the reasons I am passionate about Precept Ministries is because they teach how to study the Bible inductively.
I love you guys, my dear brothers and sisters in Christ. He is Lord!
Lindon...
While all you say is true, there are pertinent facts missing here. If I am incorrect I am sure I will be corrected, but my memory best serves me in that there were inconsistencies of truth first coming from the pastor and some of his staff and the deacon chairman? There was a deacon by the name of Mark Sharpe who was grossly abused by these men and blatantly called a liar for speaking Truth. There are many other victims at the hands of the 'leaders' and many other indescrepancies. It seemed that many, many people rose up against what appears to be a church growth movement, the purpose driven one at the center of suspect and the savingbellevue website and this blog was birthed as a result of it. As a result of all this, Paul Williams and his rape of his own son was somehow leaked. Thus...the outbreak of the truth of Paul Williams. Since that, that revelation has taken center stage and the core of the problem has taken a back seat...so to speak. I certainly hope that the core problem is not lost in the shuffle. Steve Gaines, Mark Dougherty, Chuck Taylor, etc. are not deserving of the lapse of memory in my opinion. We must not lose sight of the beginnings.
pardon me for being off topic but please pray for our troops in Iraq tonight (this morning) they are going to need it. God bless our troops. Forgive the off-topic but there are some praying people on this site.
notaclapper- My thoughts?? My thoughts are that your post is hate filled and horrible. You say that Prayer is the answer and God is the answer, BUT everything in your post goes against that. Everything!! If you are truly wanting to do the horrible stuff you posted, I have an idea. Stay home or go somewhere else.
Many of us want to move on and actually worship and serve our Lord.
4545
No, you are waiting for Steve Gaines and his cronies to stand up so you can clap and hoot and holler.
Heaven forbid anybody attend the service and not comply.
Remember Shadrach, Meshach and Abednigo? (forgive the spelling)
4545 said...
notaclapper- My thoughts?? My thoughts are that your post is hate filled and horrible.
Where have I read this statement before.
You say that Prayer is the answer and God is the answer, BUT everything in your post goes against that.
Are you saying that God doesn't answers prayers to place men into action against unbiblical activities???Like Martin Luther maybe??? I guess you would be against nailing letters to the church door, and would be calling that activity hateful and unbiblical????
Everything!! If you are truly wanting to do the horrible stuff you posted, I have an idea. Stay home or go somewhere else.
What is so horrible ? Sounds to me it's a reverse "standing O"
Many of us want to move on and actually worship and serve our Lord.
8:02 PM, December 29, 2006
You want to move on with a pasot who hides a childmolester from parents, and the church in general?
Just where do you want to move on to???More molesters in the church????
could it be that 4545 and granny are one and the same?
;)
fedupatbbc said...
could it be that 4545 and granny are one and the same?
;)
8:26 PM, December 29, 2006
.SG supporters hey sound alike to me
our troops are on high alert tonight in Iraq. When you pray for the situation at Bellevue include our troops in your prayers.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=o929QwKAfGQ
Hope all of you are well.
!Nuff said!
Ya'll can disband now.
I expect all of you who use Dr. Rogers' name everyday to think about his words.
Love,
Brad
That was not put in the correct order and could be confusing...my intent that is.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=o929QwKAfGQ
!Nuff said!
Just go there. Happy New year.
I'm not mad at you guys I just dissagree w/ you. I hope that link works. I tested it a few times.
May I leave a prayer request?
I could seriously not thank you enough for praying for my marriage and family. Thanks in advance.
Hey, I have been thinking about something and I don't think there is anything wrong with it. It seems kinda odd though. I'll promise to add you to my prayer list if you add me to yours!...I'm really just in bad need of prayer...my marriage that is... it's embarrassing to admit in public but so be it. You can leave requests in my in box. Jessebjobe@aol.com
I didn't intend to say all that but anyway...see you in church...I hope.
Brad- That has been posted many times. MANY on here do not want unity.
nthepew- So you are saying God wants that? The actions that were posted would be 100% self serving and show. To come to church trying to cause trouble on purpose??
To try and cause a scene??
You have the nerve to say that is something that would give God glory??
"I may say to you, as speakers, that I am persuaded we should prepare ourselves with diligence, and try to do our very best in our great Master's service. I think I have read that when a handful of lion-like Greeks held the pass against the Persians, a spy, who came to see what they were doing, went back and told the great king that they were poor creatures, for they were busied in combing their hair. The despot saw things in a true light when the learned that a people who could adjust their hair before battle had set a great value on their heads, and would not bow them to a coward's death. If we are very careful to use our best language when proclaiming eternal truths, we may leave our opponents to infer that we are still more careful of the doctrines themselves. We must not be untidy soldiers when a great fight is before us, for that would look like despondency. Into the battle against false doctrine, and worldliness, and sin, we advance without a fear as to the ultimate issue; and therefore our talk should not be that of ragged passion, but of well-considered principle."--CH Spurgeon
imaresistor, Thanks for the clarifications..such as they are without facts from the front line players!
I have been somewhat confused on exactly how the information on PW came out. I knew there was unhappiness with some of the early actions of SG. Now, you are linking those.
Folks, this is one reason I love blogs. They are holding leaders accountable when they are being deceptive.
And, Because leaders are not forthcoming with important information that affects everyone, sometimes blogs fill those voids.
IF they are upset by speculations here...then they should give the whole timeline of what happened and be totally truthful.
People who abuse authority are apt to hate blogs.
Think on why Jesus was so angry with the Pharisees.
Brad Jobe
This is not about the color of the carpet.
When it comes to lack of integrity in the pulpit there can be no unity?! Or there SHOULD be none - unless it is a unified effort to REMOVE heresy and deceit from leadership.
Good grief! Dr. Rogers never advocated unity at the expense of truth and righteousness! Look at the stand he took at the SBC.
There are always those who complain about trivial things. There have always been small things I would have done differently at Bellevue. But NEVER have I engaged in a quarrel over these trivial things.
I will NOT go along to get along with leadership that hides the truth, disrespects the membership, twists scripture, and breaks the law. I WILL NOT! AND DON'T EVEN TRY TO MAKE ME BELIEVE THAT OUR BELOVED DR. ROGERS WOULD HAVE WANTED ME TO.
This is not about music, carpet, or paint colors and you know it, Brad.
Saddam Hussein has been executed.
Brad Jobe,
Thank You so much for the post.
Dr. Rogers said so clearly that, "God hates him who sews discord among the brethren." Steve Gaines should step down because of the discord that he has sewn. He has "dishonored the head who is Jesus and wounded and multilated himself."
How sad it has been that Steve Gaines did not do as the Apostle Paul stated and "Endavored to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."
How sad it has been that "We are here to glorify the Lord Jesus" and many have chosen to glorify a man.
4545 said:
nthepew- So you are saying God wants that? The actions that were posted would be 100% self serving and show. To come to church trying to cause trouble on purpose??
To try and cause a scene??
*****
45, Have you considered just for a moment that the pastor's sermons where he injects insults at " us" would be self-serving?
Have you considered that maybe, just maybe, there are many who go to church enthusiastically looking forward to the ' standing ovation' that is sure to come? Is that not causing trouble on purpose? Is that not ' causing a scene?
From our perspective, these things are offensive, becuase they are designed to divide God's people.
The very accusations you hurl at nthepew are the very things that ya'll are doing every single sunday.
4545
Unity is NOT the goal. Godliness, truthfulness, transparency, and humility are worth goals.
You, my friend, are ready for the one-world church.
HOW TO MAKE A LINK LINKABLE:
See this.
This same link is permanently posted on the front page.
NBBCOF
-notaclapper:
I am so tired of the congregation disrupting the worship services for these explosive shows of support for Steve. It makes you wonder who BBC worships...Jesus or Steve. Do they ever have standing Os to show support for Jesus? NO! (Jesus doesn't need the constant reinforcement).
We are told that we can't respond to their planned standing Os or WE would be disrupting the service. I think the standing Os have already disrupted the service.
I for one, think your idea about sitting together down front so when everyone else stands we would be more noticeable in a group is a good one.
It is very lonely to stay seated when you can't see another person doing the same. It would be great to all sit in the same section and be able to see each other.
There have been some other good ideas in the last week or two about how to respond to the standing Os. There has to be a way to make them STOP!!!!
4545
I think you use the word 'many' too many times. The way you are using many is a devisive term. You said many of us want to move on and actually worship and serve our Lord. Don't we all!
You said many on here do not want unity. I'm sure we all want unity. I do! Change your thinking and you can change people otherwise you are dividing.
Please pray for our troops.
nbbcof,
well there's the 3rd...Gerald Ford, James Brown, Saddam Hussein
Here's a doctrinal issue that disturbs me...Dr. Gaines doesn't believe that we are born sinners...original sin is a foundational doctrine.
I am rather fond of having clapper and "non clapper" designated sections. I honestly believe that a great number of people that stand and clap do so because they don't want to appear to be defiant.
Perhaps we could ask an usher to direct us to the "non clapper" section.
"Father Abraham, have mercy on me"
allofgrace:
When did SG say that he doesn't believe we are born sinners? That surprises me.
The Bible says "There is none good, no, not one." What about, "For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God?"
Might you be referring to some comment about children going to heaven because they haven't reached the age of accountability?
I certainly don't want to take Steve's side but I've just never heard him say anything like this.
Let me know what he said and the context.
Tim,
ROFL!!!
Tim,
I don't care who you are, now, that's just funny.
:)
I said I wasn't going to post anymore...oh well..
you know, I just see that ya'll were all against Bro. Steve for so long for really small stuff and then he really made a bad decision with PW. Then I didn't see any of you talking about the other stuff you originally wanted him booted for. And you all just seem so angry..you even have a guy named notaclapper in your group...what in the world is wrong with clapping? Don't go to Heaven, sir or Ma'am. No disrespect intended. SG has asked you to forgive him?! Right? He knows he screwed up! Right? He's not going to do it again!? Right? I mean, come on... he is human.
I guess the reason I..or one of them for me defending SG is that I know the mistakes I have made in my life. HE didn't abuse anyone. I honestly really seriously can see where all the anger comes from. It's almost hatred.
I posted a few times a few weeks ago and stated that I don't like everything about the guy but he is my pastor.
Also, you all loose credibility with all the stuff about DR. R saying he was duped with absolutely no proof. And the other acusations that are not backed up...I wish I could see ya'lls point!? I wish I could. Man....because this is very serious stuff you are doing to our church. It has to be extremely serious in your minds and I just don't get it. Also you have to realize that it's only like 45 or so of you! That also says something, really.
And I am sorry for being mean in some of my posts weeks earlier..I just was and am confused!?
Maybe I need to sit down and have lunch with you.---Do this----all of ya'll SMILE for ten seconds before you keep reading. SMILE! :O)Don't be so mad and angry.
I have another question......is there any of ya'll who doubt Bro. Steve's salvation? Is there? Cause I sence it.
allof grace hates me so before she says it...I'm not spell/grammer checking this :O) :O)---Ya'll make a fellow want to drink!
Brad
fedupatbbc,
I started to suggest that we install some of those clapper things on the light switches, add a little dry ice and hold lighters and sway during the preaching. After thinking about it I realized that if we wanted to do that we could just go to i2. Why do the kids get to have all the fun?
SEE! It's that type of thing
Gaines doesn't believe that we are born sinners...
WHAT!!!! are you telling me he dosn't think we are all sinners?
That's exactly why I stopped reading this. WHAT IN THE WORLD?? He said that? Really? Did he mean it like you typed it? That's absurd!
And I bet it's not true the way you put it.
AAAHHH...
brad jobe,
If you stay tuned, I believe that allofgrace will be posting a link to the sermon that he has mentioned. Would you consider that to be a serious offense if that is indeed what was said?
Thanks WatchingHISstory for requesting prayer for our troops in Iraq. I have a sibling over there in Iraq and they definitely need everyone to pray for a hedge of protection to be around them.
Tim,
I needed the laughing tonight..you are just too funny.
chazzo posted that we need some way to recognize each other. I suggest that we put you in charge of the secret handshake.
No offense intended to Chazzo, I think your ideas are great!
He couldn't have said it's possible for us not to sin. If he said babies can't sin..he's right...right? I have a little girl 3 and 7/8's years old as I tell her when she holds up three fingers. She sins now but the day I brought her home..it was impossible for her to sin...am I making sence..is that what he meant...am I not docterinely sound with what I said?
HELP
this is interesting
Brad
I apologize for yelling in my previous post.
What you are sensing is frustration. These things we are upset about are not small things. They never were small things.
Gaines has proven his arrogant attitude on several occasions and then had to apologize. He has mistreated loved staff members. He proclaims himself accountable to NOONE but God. He believes in enforcing tithing as a legalistic requirement for service instead of an act of love and obedience to God. He has refused to meet with Mark Sharpe to iron out differences and, instead, has removed him as deacon. He has meetings where nobody on the opposing side is allowed to speak. He stopped the Communications Meetings as the attendance increased from a handful to nearly 300.
I won't try to list it all.
We see strong evidence of arrogance, greed, pride, and dishonesty. These are not small things.
The offenses have been numerous.
I am disturbed by this idea that if we, as members, sin then it makes sin in the pulpit acceptable.
God deals with us when we sin. I believe He is dealing with Steve Gaines' sin through this blog but there are so many who want to soften the blow, accept sinful behaviour and, yes, even applaud it.
How are these small issues? Especially when they keep repeating themselves?
brad jobe,
I would suggest reading Romans 5:12 thru Romans 6:23. This is possibly the clearest Biblical passage that explains that we are born sinners and sinners by nature. Even a newborn baby is guilty from birth. A baby is born with a selfish nature. They want what they want, when they want it, now. They do not understand the concept of sin and God does not hold children accountable until they have reached an age of understanding.
piglet- Please STOP putting words in my mouth!!!
watchinghisstory- And you and others on the blog are not dividing? wow
I once heard someone say, "better to have division with truth, than unity in error."
Just something to think about...
4545
we are all one body in Christ, We have different opinions. One Lord, faith and baptism.
Repost? Anyone have any ideas??
I keep hearing people say that at business meetings is where people get booted out of the church. I have only been at BBC for alittle over 5 years. In that time I have never heard of BBC (or any church I have belong to) voting someone out of the church. A couple of questions:
1. Is there a mandate on how a congragation votes someone out of the church?
2. Has BBC ever voted anyone out of the church?
3. Is there any proof or documentation that SG has ever had someone voted out any church?
4. Is that a real concern that some people have? (that they will be voted out?)
Tim,
Romans 5:12 encapsulates the idea of original sin. Psalm 51:5 teaches that we are conceived in sin.
What do ya'll think is going to be the end result here and how long will you be calling for SG to step down. Just asking--don't imply a tone or anything.
Brad and anyone else on the other side of these issues,
Please sometime this weekend listen to this entire sermon. The Lord may move you in a new direction afterwards.
Henry Mahan's - They Cry Peace When there is No Peace
4545
It appears the unpardonable sin is "dividing". You don't seem to care what the division is over. Is this true?
We would rather be divided over truth than to be united in error.
That is the choice as we see it. We expect more out of our leaders than we are getting. What we have right now is leadership that is typical of most corporations:
All about numbers and $$$$
Cover up of incriminating evidence
Get rid of whistleblowers
If the choice is unity OR righteousness, which would you have us choose?
What is going on are Bellevue is simply the fulfillment of a scriptural principle...you will reap what you sow. The seeds of pride and arrogance and power through money has been present for many, many years now. Finally, harvest time has come.
It's a shame. It's a disgrace. I'm no prophet, but I don't think the church will ever recover.
You reap what you sow.
Brad,
That is in the Lord's hands, and no blog can thwart His plans.
Job 42:2
I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted.
Isaiah 14:27
For the LORD Almighty has purposed, and who can thwart him? His hand is stretched out, and who can turn it back?
JU,
I listened to that sermon several days ago. It is one of the best sermons I have heard in some time. I second your endorsement.
ok well i was going to post Psalm 51, but i see it's already been done..thanks
brad jobe,
I don't know where you get that I hate you..I don't hate anyone...there are things I hate..but not people. You pointed out something I said once that offended you...I apologized and removed the particular post that offended. Assuming that means hate is quite a jump. Perhaps you want to think I hate you...I'm sorry, but you'll have to be disappointed if that's the case. Btw...I'm a he not a she.
westtnbarrister,
True enough. You always have to consider Scripture in conjunction with other Scripture. The passage that I referenced has always seemed to be fairly clear to me, that is why I refered to it.
Something else that I remember hearing J.Vernon McGee preach on Thru the Bible had to do with the age of accountability. He had stated that the age of accountability might be much older than we sometimes think. His reference was an Old Testament passage in which the children of Israel had worshiped an idol and God commanded that all over the age of eighteen that had worshipped were to be slain. I remember specifically looking that passage up and thought that I would never forget it, because I had read right over time and time before. Alas, an old body and an old brain have failed me, because I cannot remember where the passage was.
Glad to hear eveyone's listening to Mahan...I've been enjoying him myself ever since I found his sermons online.
Ok, thanks soc....now...Do ya'll think that SG came here out of God's will? Did the Pulpit com. blow it? They didn't pray enough? And id Dr. R wanted him..did he mess up too? Just curious..and trying to understand all opinions..not that I'm swayable
what's up with these stupid drunk letters we have to type?
clarification.....the drunk letters...that's not a reference to our posts ...the colored letters typed before posting is allowed
tim, WTB,
I think only God knows when someone reaches the point of discerning right from wrong..not a particular age.
Bellevuefriend,
We have had business meetings. We have had several business meetings. The only problem with the business meetings is what SG told a church in Union City, (this is a near quote) he said that he "didn't just fall off the turnip truck. He was not about to let the other side, his adversaries, say anything." Bellevue has its on 'Politburo'. The Politburo consists of the leadership who control the information that they want people to hear. They do not want to look bad in any way. If they admit fault, they even put a spin on what they admit so it doesn't sound so bad.
It seems like all the major players in the current controversy are beyond the age of accountability. Just curious, what are you guys going to say to the Lord when he asks you why you did what you are now doing with all this fighting back and forth?
Both sides think they are right.
But the Bible is right. Pride goes before destruction. You reap what you sow. Seeds of pride are oh so hard to uproot. What those of us on the outside are now witnessing at Bellevue is proof of that.
God is not pleased in any form or fashion with what's happening at Bellevue.
It's a disgrace.
It's time to repent.
And it may be time to start something new.
May God have mercy on you all.
allofgrace,
I agree that there is not a certain age. Relying solely upon my memory J.Vernon McGee in that sermon did not advocate a certain age either.
Brad,
I would like to ask you this question:
The preacher out in Colorado, Haggard...he resigned last month because of sexual immorality. Do you think that he had been called by God to be the preacher at his church? If so, do you think he should still be the preacher?
What, in your opinion, would be enough for a preacher to resign? In other words, where would you draw the line?
Also, another question. You say you are a married father of two. How do you feel about SG's knowledge of a pedofile on staff for 6 months, given that pedofiles cannot be reformed? What if he were to have targed your child in that six month period?
If this had been the principal at a public school, and he was aware that he had a pedofile on staff, would you be outraged? If so, why aren't you outraged about SG's knowledge of the pedofile on staff at our church. Do you not feel that it is SG's responsibility to protect his sheep?
Ok, so i asked you more than one question. Sorry about that, but i would really like to know your answers to these questions, if
you don't mind.
Brad
Originally I did not doubt Steve Gaines was God's man for Bellevue.
I trusted our Search Committee.
Then after almost a year I began to see and hear things from the pastor that caused me to investigate these so-called rumors and lies. I found that, contrary to what I was told by my Bible Fellowship teacher, the discontenet was not "all about the music".
Then I thought God must have brought SG here to refine him, humble him, so He could use him. Even folks at Gardendale have said this was possible.
Then I began to learn of some of the power players on the Search Committee that brought SG here and see their dirty politics. Now I wonder if God brought him here at all.
As to Dr. Rogers' endorsement of him. I don't know. I DO know that he would not be pleased. I sat under him for 25 years and I am confident of that.
What's wrong with your letters? Mine look fine :)
tim,
also you have to remember that God dealt with Israel under the old covenant generationally...he punished the sons for the sins of the father. Jeremiah's prophecy of the new covenant that was coming..in ch. 31 makes this distinction between the two covenants v. 29 In those days people will no longer say, "The fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge." 30 Instead, everyone will die for his own sin; whoever eats the sour grapes--his own teeth will be set on edge.
piglet,
I think he's referring to the word verification
As one of the outside with no bias from either side, based on what I've read and heard (representing both sides), it looks really bad that the church has not already removed your head pastor. Knowledge of having a pedophile on staff should have been shared. It appears that the head pastor and his followers are NOT in favor of full disclosure or discussion.
If the head pastor would simply come forward and answer ALL questions in an open and public forum, this issue could possibly be stopped. But it appears that full and open disclosure is not in the plan.
Unless your head pastor has a change of heart, I see worse days ahead. The inerrant, infallible Word of God is true. Your sin will always find you out. Truth always sets people free. And we do reap what we sow. It's time to start sowing seeds of truth and openness.
sbcblogmeister
What do you mean - God have mercy on "you" all? Have you read the issues that we have at Bellevue since Dr. Gaines has come?
God forbid we be quiet. We have everything to lose by speaking out and nothing to gain.
The leadership has everything to lose - power, and high paying jobs. Who has the incentive to twist the truth here?
I am ready to face the Lord should He come today. And I wish he would.
blogmeister,
What would you have "us" do? Would you have us to accept sin in the pulpit so that we would be unified?
Would God be more upset with us for accepting sin in the pulpit than for communicating on this blog?
AOG
That was a poor attempt at a joke. :(
cjesusnme
Mahan reminds me of J. Vernon McGee. I like him, too. Excellent message. He also reminds me of my grandfather who preached util he was in his 80's.
concerning God's will about Dr. Gaines coming to Bellevue...he is here, so we can know that it is God's decretive will that he come to BBC...was it His will according to His revealed will is the question. God gave quail to Israel in the desert when they complained about the manna and wanted meat...but while it was still in their mouths they became sick and many died...why?...crying for meat when He told them to gather the manna for food was contrary to His revealed will...he gave the meat..according to His decretive will, in order to teach them a lesson.
sbcblogmeister,
Perhaps I will be told that I was too bold in protecting the church and that I should not have been so concerned with the integrity and purity of the church. I would much rather receive reprimand for acting upon Biblical convictions than to be reprimanded for failing to act when I became convicted of Biblical principles that were not being followed.
1. Haggard had to go. He was the one guilty of egregious sin. Waaaaaay outside being able to keep his post.
2. I think SG made a STUPID mistake. AND one reason I can forgive and let him stay is that I honestly believe SG thought it was so long ago and he wanted to forgive PW. He (SG) was just too nice. I really believe that SG was convinced that PW was reformed. I just think SG wanted too badly to give a second chance. I also think SG made the wrong decision.
3. I have one beautiful daughter...bradjobe.org to see for yourself..I would have slowly mutilated PW.
http://bradjobe.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=28
third bullet point--
4. Again I see your point. READY FOR A SHOCK? I think PW should have been executed if we knew this 17 years ago! But this is not about him as much as it is about Bro. Steve making a big mistake as how to handle the situation HE was in. Be careful not to equate SG with PW's behavior----very careful--I think too many people are doing that.
By the way--- I lost the election by .45% or 67 votes.
That's another reason I stopped posting here. Someone accused me of being beholden to SG for the "Bellevue vote" ...that made me want to throw up.
Again....I would have made a different decision...but SG didn't and I really believe he knows it and is sorry for it!
sbcblogmeister
I think I may have misunderstood your 10:53 post. It appears that you do understand the weighty issues we are dealing with.
what I liked about Mahan's "Sovereign Grace" sermon as good as the sermon was, there was a baptism at the end of it. "Brother, pick out a song we can all sing and then we'll baptise sister Cheryl" (I think it was Cheryl) I thought to myself, "I wonder where Cheryl got saved." Maybe at home or work or school. We have a short three point sermon that sounds sweet and an 'alter' call and maybe 5,10,20.30 people respond and then three or four weeks later we baptise two or three. We need old fashion preaching from the Bible and then bring our friends we have won to the Lord and have them baptized! WOW, revival, I feel it already! We free up our preachers to preach without pressure to sale!
Brad Jobe
Gaines has been sorry since he got here. I forgive him but I wish he'd get another job.
Since no one answered my question, I am guessing that the answers are:
1. none
2. No
3. No
4. NO
Memphis
I guess nobody knows....
You know ...ya'll really know more about the first stuff that came up...I just really know about the PW stuff and think we could forgive SG. I mean to throw the guy out and ruin his life almost for one very stupid decision is just not right.
I know enough about the first stuff to know I didn't think it was that big a deal. Credit cards, fences, salary...
Brad, I sent you an email through your site that you listed.
Here is what needs to be done next week. Call the Dept. Of Human Services and ask how the Bellevue investigation is going and when will they have the final report avaiable?
The more concern they hear from the public in this issue the faster it will be handled.
Will the report be open for the membership to read if requested?
I am not for a moment saying that members should stand by and do nothing. You do have a responsibility to address the issues.
From what I read and understand as an outsider, the pastor should have been and should be more open in his handling of this situation.
It appears to me that the head pastor is covering something up.
Why can't a meeting be held where ALL members can voice their concerns, especially those who do not agree with the pastor?
I'm not trying to pick sides, but if I had to, I would lean toward those who are now feeling left out and ashamed of the inactivity of the head pastor and leadership to deal with this in an appropriate way. The fact that the fighting continues is evidence that it has not been handled wisely.
I could go on forever, but will stop. I don't see how the current pastor can have a fruitful ministry at BBC unless he makes some major changes including some genuine heartfelt apologies to those he has offended.
To: surefoundation,
The exact quote from the Union City fiasco was:
"Then we set everybody down and said, this is not a business meeting, it’s an information meeting…
What that meant is, we’re gonna talk (laughs) but you’re not (laughs)(audience laughs) amen…
I didn’t just fall off the cabbage truck…..amen…I (laughs)(audience laughter)
I’m ah… I been around this for a long time, amen."
To: Memphismom02,
Joe Jernigan is preaching all services on New Year's Eve.
God Bless,
Ema
Brad,
Have you read some of the previous posts today from victims of rape/incest? You understand how it is allowed to continue to happen? It's the tunderous silence that allows it to continue in secret. Silence that Steve Gaines has already admitted to. Yes his silence and inaction was a mistake. I take umbrage with it being a "stupid" mistake. It takes thought in this day and age for a Pastor with 20+yrs experience to NOT take definitive action when something like this is presented to you. Especially considering all of the recent Roman Catholic abuse problems. Apparently according to David Brown's recent posted links it's not like this type of thing is even uncommon in the Baptist ministry.
Memphis,
1. Is there a mandate on how a congragation votes someone out of the church?
We do not have a by-laws to vote to remove a deacon from service but it happened.
2. Has BBC ever voted anyone out of the church?
That would be a good question to have answered by the church. Perhaps you could ask to see the church records and find out.
3. Is there any proof or documentation that SG has ever had someone voted out any church?
Steve Gaines has a very good friend in Sam Shaw that tried to have by-laws passed that would have allowed any member to be called before the elders and questioned or even removed from the church for whatever reason they deemed reasonable. The proposed by-laws are documented. The fact that Sam Shaw has been an advisor to Steve Gaines is an indication of what he might have in mind.
4. Is that a real concern that some people have? (that they will be voted out?)
I can't speak for anyone other than myself, but it is irrelevant to my stand. I will continue to stand for truth and I am committed to stand for truth and integrity at Bellevue.
"investigation" is right, the more DHS hears from concerned public citizens, the more attention will likely be given to the investigation. They likely won't give any information, but they will hear how concerned people are by our phone calls.
Let me add one more thing, I think a true leader, a true man of God, would resign and move on for the sake of the kingdom.
He should step down, move on, and let the church heal.
And he should pray he is not charged with a misdemeanor.
Brad,
Also I understand your just familiar with this most recent issue. There are many instances of posts from his previous churches that lend to the lack of integrity issues that we're seeing. Did you know he was basically fired from one of his churches?
I think umbrage is more of a personal offence and I didn't mean to offend you or hurt your feelings, honest. I'm sorry. It was a foolish and completely idiotic and moronic mistake. Sorry. I agree 100%.
Do you think the Cathoic Church is watching to see what the Dept Of Human Services is going to do with their results.
I talked to a priest this week who said the Cathloic Church will await how this crime will be handled by the Dept of Human Services.
HIS mistake
It was a foolish and completely idiotic and moronic mistake
"4. Is that a real concern that some people have? (that they will be voted out?)"
I agree with tim...it's irrelevant. But we know for sure that one member who has graced us with her emails, would like just that very thing to happen. Nothing would surprise me at this point.
Brad Jobe
How many times do you suppose the average worker could mess up in a year and still keep his job?
How about a worker being paid over $400,000.00 a year?
How about a pastor who is responsible for being a spiritual leader and role model?
How about a pastor paid $400.00.00 a year to be a spiritual leader and role model?
Brad,
You sound like a reasonable christian. If PW came to you today and confessed to the sin of raping his son 17 years ago and told the story SG said was told to him what would your response be? I think most normal people would look to secure the safety of the victim then the security of the church both legally and scripturally. What is it about SG that made him believe that keeping this a secret was right in the eyes of the law and the Lord?
allofgrace,
The only thing that I would be surprised by would be if Steve Gaines resigned.
just for the record, I am opposed to anyone being voted out of the Church, including all my new friends here! :)
Ahhhh Memphis
You're so sweet! :)
I want to ask you people this. If you ever run Steve off, then what? The SBC is as corrupt as the Roman Catholic Church. Your tithes and offerings will be going to an evil organization. Are you going to blog them to death then?
You all have to realize that it is all over. Finished. Caplooey. Gone as we all knew it.
Piglet, I really am if ya got to know me
Someone asked me today, at what age is mandatory retirement at Bellevue?
I think it is 65 except for the pastor, is that correct?
If so, why did we just hire someone in their 60's?
So what do you think Saddam said when he met his maker?
Memphis,
I agree. I'm of the same opinion that if SG's heart was completely right with the Lord's will he would resign on his own and ask the others to as well. Unfortunately, they will probably call a vote sometime soon and I think they're all fairly sure they'd win a vote of confidence. Once that vote is called and they win all bets are off you will see a change like you never expected. Because they will know they can do as they wish unopposed. It'll be a sad day for some of us.
I hate to do this but....we don't KNOW how much he makes. 400K is insane though if that's right. How much did Dr. R get? Was it too much in your mind?
2. I really have a serious problem with how Gaines handled it. I THINK I would have had the man escourted out of the building and called the cops. I may have been violent. I'm not kidding. He may have either been incapable of leaving the office or at least there would have been blood shed.
But that's why I wanted to write the laws concerning these monsters and perhaps why I'm not a preacher. What would you have done if Gaines put him in the Med for a month or two?
YOU WOULD CALL FOR HIM TO RESIGN.
Gross exagerations..yes ..but you get my point! :O)
nothing...he had to clap his hand over his mouth
JU, I think you put my name on a comment that was meant for someone else.
sbcblogmeister wrote:
It's a shame. It's a disgrace. I'm no prophet, but I don't think the church will ever recover.
Blogmeister,
Just keep watching, and see what God can do!
400K how embarassing to defend to my non Bellevue friends. That's actually where we all agree. But ya'll are saying Dr. R got 250k and that's too much also.
AND not worthy of being kicked out!
mark wiley,
Is God's arm too short?...I understand how you feel..none of knows what God will do...I just know what He CAN do.
faithnhope
AMEN!
No I was agreeing with you about not voting people out. Staff should resign their staff positions on their own and members should look to the Lord to lead them to stay or go.
O yall bring up a good point, and in doing so, establish another.
Romans 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of GOD according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls)
Most of the divines believed (as I do) that infants are not the subjects of rebrobation, but are the recipients of GOD's grace. With that being said though, they are indeed born in sin, totally depraved sinners by nature, (remember depravity has to do with the nature, not the act of sin) but sinners none the less.
If they are indeed sinners, and sin must be judged by a holy GOD, then they must be judged also. If they are not the subjects of reprobation, then there has had to have been an atonement made for their sin. They get no free pass, as none of Adam's fallen race do. So Christ then has made an atonement for them...they did not make a decision or a confession. They are elect in Christ Jesus!
But just a question to get thought juices flowing; when GOD killed all the first born in Egypt on the passover night (remember, they would not all have been infants), would you apply the same principal and also age/accountability here also?
Memphis said...
just for the record, I am opposed to anyone being voted out of the Church, including all my new friends here! :)
I appreciate your sentiments...however it still would not surprise me.
Brad,
I would suggest to you that 250k for 30+ years of consistently excellent service is not to much compensation. He didn't start at 250k he ended there. There is no doubt in my mind that the salary numbers for BBC senior staff are shocking which is why they won't make them public like most churches do.
JU, my bad, had several conversations going on and watching the news.
Yes, I agree that PW should resign and members should decide on their own if they want to stay at BBC
Sorry for the misunderstanding
allofgrace, it does not seem at this time there is any formal way to vote people out of the church, so it would shock me.
memphis
"Father Abraham, have mercy on me! Please"
Brad
If Dr. Rogers made 250k at his retirement after more than 30 years of service I can live with that.
Imagine starting a new job and wanting to nearly double the salary of the guy who just retired after 30 years of service?
Why he got it I don't know. I guess Craig Parker, the head of the finance committee didn't understand it either and he quit.
gator jake,
Excellent question.
WatchingHISstory said...
memphis
"Father Abraham, have mercy on me! Please"
Watching,
Since when do we pray to Abraham?
And your profile is not complete. You should either complete it or get booted.
JU,
You've got mail.
memphis,
It might not be by formal vote. Churches have excommunicated, broke fellowship with, asked to leave..whatever you want to call it..by a move of pastor/s or deacons before in my experience...without congregational vote.
Brad,
I have posted before that all that is necessary for an assault to occur against a chid is for adults to look the other way.
In this day and age, anyone with a PHD KNOWS this information. And there is NO SUCH THING as a reformed pedofile. Let me assure you that PW didn't just rape once.
The only way the pedofiles do not molest children is when they are behind bars and there are no children to molest. It is a compulsion. I have read book after book, researched this thoroughly.
You say you would have dismantled him if he had harmed your baby girl. Is it ok if he harmed someone else's baby girl in that time period? Maybe not even someone in the church. Maybe another relative of his. Because SG remained silent, he was allowed to continue his activity, if he so chose.
It's really not prudent to give SG a pass on this. He is a professional. He doesn't get to make mistakes that could take the innocence away from a child. Especially when he had to have known better.
There are laws against keeping silent when you are aware of a pedofile commiting acts against children. The reason for this law is because it is an established fact that pedofiles act on compulsion and most likely have many victims. If the authorities are notified, they can stop the abuser before he strikes again.
I think that the reason he kept quiet is becuase he just didn't want to deal with it. He CHOSE to protect PW and himself, rather than to protect any children that could have been put in harm's way. Perhaps he felt the information would have made him look bad.
All that is necessary for pedofelia to flourish is for adults to look the other way.
If we learn that PW harmed a child, other than your own, in that 6 month period, would you still give SG a pass? What would cause you to be outraged? Where is your line in the sand?
Mark,
It's not something I can stop without removing my birthday. It happens automatically because I've put my birthday into the system. I guess nobody needs to know exactly how old I am :)
Mark W.
WatchingHISstory said...
memphis
"Father Abraham, have mercy on me! Please"
Is in response to a comment. I asked what he thought Saddam was saying to the Creator tonight.
It's gone now :) of course now you won't know if I'm 10 or 50 :)
Just a update for those of you who would want to take advantage of a Sunday service without JSG, as according to the BBC website, JSG will be not be preaching this Sunday but instead Joe Jernigan is listed as the Minister, morning and evening.
http://www.bellevue.org/clientimages/
1360/homepage/bellevue_today.pdf
Sorry Memphis. I misunderstood.
Cool JU.
AoG,
I send you mail
Hey guys,
Here is the number for DHS so that you can call and inquire about the PW investigation:
333.6300
Brad,
Sorry, don't mean to pick on you, and I am really trying not to make it seem that way, but i just wanted to say this:
When SG failed to report PW, he became an accomplice to any crime that PW committed after the point where he was made aware of the situation. SG sits in a position of trust. That makes it so much more mandatory that he report it.
Mark
I'm scorpio (and no I don't read astrology, that is until tonight), where is your profile?
Saddam is joining the rich man in begging father Abraham for relief.
Please pray for our servicemen in Iraq tonight (tomorrow)
fedup,
Have you done what David Brown suggested? Researched the Southern Baptist Convention.
All of you,
We have got to somehow remove BBC from the SBC or remove the leaders of the SBC. Otherwise our church will never have integrity again. And if we can't do that, then what is the point in going on further?
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