Thursday, March 01, 2007

The Sheep are Scattered

We hear a lot about Matthew 18 verses 15-17, but verses 10-14 precede that:

10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that [sheep], than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.


Please continue your discussions of the most important issues you see facing Bellevue today. What will it take to restore your trust in our church leadership?

645 comments:

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Tim said...

Matt 7:21-23
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Not everybody talkin' bout heaven is goin' there.

all2jesus said...

Another article by Don Boys, on Bellevue and Trinity Baptist in Jacksonville.

Piglet said...

Mike said:

You folks want to revoke the salvation of people you share a church roof with--and make no mistake, it's because they don't agree with your clique. Why should it be any surprise you'd want to do the same to other Christians who disagree with you on more substantive issues?

Piglet says:

Losing your cool, Mike?

I didn't "revoke" anyone's salvation.

If believing the Bible and following what it says makes you part of a clique then I'm in.

Oh, and it's not ME that says fruit is the evidence of salvation. It's the Bible.


Mike also said:

When groups such as the coalition attacking the pastor, staff, and lay leadership continue to try to tar and feather individuals, rather than debate positions, they guarantee the persistence of the perception they're more about rousing the rabble than reforming the church.

Piglet says:

Excuse me but I am debating your POSITION on this donation to FUMC. If this somehow brings your character into question then I think that is because your opinions and decision-making abilities DO reflect on your character (another fruit issue).

The prevailing theme I see here is that your words and actions should not be held accountable to scripture or seen as a reflection of the condition of your heart. This is simply not scriptural.

This apparently bothers you and many others who want to say the same for our pastor -that his actions should be overlooked and his "heart condition" unquestioned.

How pious of me to take the Word literally.

Again, unity and tolerance ...(regardless of truth)..blah, blah, blah

Piglet said...

(offline until later)

Mike Bratton said...

Tim said...
Matt 7:21-23
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Not everybody talkin' bout heaven is goin' there.


You think? Please note, Tim, that Jesus predicated "goin' there" on knowing Him, not on doing "wonderful works," regardless of how "wonderful" a person or group might consider those works to be.

And please note that judging who is or isn't "goin' there" is God's purview and no one else's.

Piglet said...
Mike said:

You folks want to revoke the salvation of people you share a church roof with--and make no mistake, it's because they don't agree with your clique. Why should it be any surprise you'd want to do the same to other Christians who disagree with you on more substantive issues?

Piglet says:

Losing your cool, Mike?


Yo, I am always cool, down with it, and all that... as the kids say.

I didn't "revoke" anyone's salvation.

Thankfully, you don't have that capability, though you and yours behave as though you do.

If believing the Bible and following what it says makes you part of a clique then I'm in.

Luke 18

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:


Oh, and it's not ME that says fruit is the evidence of salvation. It's the Bible.

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

Mike also said:

When groups such as the coalition attacking the pastor, staff, and lay leadership continue to try to tar and feather individuals, rather than debate positions, they guarantee the persistence of the perception they're more about rousing the rabble than reforming the church.

Piglet says:

Excuse me but I am debating your POSITION on this donation to FUMC. If this somehow brings your character into question then I think that is because your opinions and decision-making abilities DO reflect on your character (another fruit issue).


13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

The prevailing theme I see here is that your words and actions should not be held accountable to scripture or seen as a reflection of the condition of your heart. This is simply not scriptural.

This apparently bothers you and many others who want to say the same for our pastor -that his actions should be overlooked and his "heart condition" unquestioned.

How pious of me to take the Word literally.

Again, unity and tolerance ...(regardless of truth)..blah, blah, blah


14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

--Mike

Lindon said...

Friends, It would also be a good idea to check out what the scripture says about the 'broad way' in Matthew 7. The big tent is located on the broad way.

MOM4 said...

mike said..."14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

Doest this mean that thou thinkest thyself to be a man of humility?

Lindon said...

"If you folks want to walk around presuming to invalidate the salvation of everyone who doesn't agree with you about abortion, or homosexuality, or feminism, or capital punishment, or finances, or politics, or whatever the issue du jour is, knock yourselves out. Just don't pretend you have any Biblical support to do so."


Amos 5:15
15Hate evil, and love good,
and establish justice in the gate;
it may be that the LORD, the God of hosts,
will be gracious to the remnant of Joseph.

Lindon said...

Romans 1:25-27

25because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.



26For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Lindon said...

Leviticus 18
Unlawful Sexual Relations
1And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2"Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, I am the LORD your God. 3You shall not do as they do in the land of Egypt, where you lived, and you shall not do as they do in the land of Canaan, to which I am bringing you. You shall not walk in their statutes.

Lindon said...

Deuteronomy 12:30-32

30take care that you be not ensnared to follow them, after they have been destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire about their gods, saying, 'How did these nations serve their gods?--that I also may do the same.' 31You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the LORD hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods"

Abortion: The god of convenience

watchman said...

I just can't help but wonder just how much more could be accomplished in the name of TRUTH, if those who know Truth could be discerning enough to not " debate " with the semi-professional liars and knee jerk accusers that seek debate and dialogue as a means to muddy the issues and keep the" flame " of argument going.

Remember RULE #1

Never , Ever , Ever ..."dialogue" with ............

well, .........you know...

Miriam Wilmoth said...

Piglet said,

How pious of me to take the Word literally.

No, how pious to apply it so judgmentally, or to swing it like a club upside someone's head.

Mike Bratton said...

"Lindon," instead of misusing someone else's analogy, perhaps you could tell everyone just what behaviors revoke a Christian's salvation?

As I said previously, "ezekiel," don't presume that you and yours have any Biblical support for being the Salvation Vigilantes--either within Bellevue, or without.

And "mom," to coin a phrase, it's not about me.

--Mike

watchman said...

Never ending debate is FUEL for the devil's plate.

Hey, Im a poet and didn't
KNOW IT.

wink

upside down said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Lindon said...

Genesis 19

4But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house. 5And they called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them." 6Lot went out to the men at the entrance, shut the door after him, 7and said, "I beg you, my brothers, do not act so wickedly. 8Behold, I have two daughters who have not known any man. Let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please. Only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof." 9But they said, "Stand back!" And they said, "This fellow came to sojourn, and he has become the judge! Now we will deal worse with you than with them." Then they pressed hard against the man Lot, and drew near to break the door down. 10But the men reached out their hands and brought Lot into the house with them and shut the door. 11And they struck with blindness the men who were at the entrance of the house, both small and great, so that they wore themselves out groping for the door.



12Then the men said to Lot, "Have you anyone else here? Sons-in-law, sons, daughters, or anyone you have in the city, bring them out of the place. 13For we are about to destroy this place, because the outcry against its people has become great before the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it." 14So Lot went out and said to his sons-in-law, who were to marry his daughters, "Up! Get out of this place, for the LORD is about to destroy the city." But he seemed to his sons-in-law to be jesting.

Lindon said...

JMO multiple personality wrote:

".. realized that it does no good to debate or discuss issues with those that oppose the majority at Bellevue. They believe themselves to be holier than any of us. I now realized that our church will be blessed not having them as members. And folks don't worry we will have the resources needed to move forward.

And to those holier than anyone else folks, and you know who you are."

Friends, You are seeing it happen before your very eyes. When scripture is quoted we are accused of being holier than thou, mean spirited and that the church is better off without you.

People really do hate the Word in context. It convicts. It divides. As Christ taught us it would. But it can only really do that in context...deep teaching of the Word.

They are not angry at us. They are angry because the scriptures do not teach what they really want it to teach. Or even what they think it teaches.

If you think this is bad...fasten your seat belt. It is going to become much worse in the future and from places you never dreamed of.

Decide this day whom you will serve.

Contending for the Word...the Sword of Truth is worth everything. Your home, your job, your life if need be. What does it profit you to gain the whole world and lose your soul?

The full gospel offends.

Quite frankly I know for a fact this blog is leading people to dive into scripture prayerfully and intensely. Praise HIM. May HIS NAME BE MAGNIFIED.

Unknown said...

Another "hold their feet to the fire - no holds barred" article by Don Boys.

Thanks Dr. Boys for putting the issue of child molestors on staff back in the limelight of truth - not under a bushel!

It makes me think of the two vicious dogs that were put to sleep here in Memphis (they had attacked that man as he walked by the auto shop). The law said the dogs had to be put to sleep. If you feel sorry for the dogs, go ahead and give them opportunity to play with your kids on the off chance they won't bite again. Now make the leap to Paul Williams - who's going to volunteer their kid to be alone with Paul because Paul said he never had molested again and won't because it's "under the blood". Let your kids play with a confessed child molestor if you want - just don't complain later if he hurts you kid.

Karen

Lindon said...

"instead of misusing someone else's analogy, perhaps you could tell everyone just what behaviors revoke a Christian's salvation?"

Hebrews 10: 26-31

Psalm 43:3 said...

Has anyone received the BBC budget in the mail? We normally get a copy of the budget mailed to us this time each year. I think the church is supposed to vote on it on Sunday, March 25.

Mike Bratton said...

DON said...
I just can't help but wonder just how much more could be accomplished in the name of TRUTH, if those who know Truth could be discerning enough to not " debate " with the semi-professional liars and knee jerk accusers that seek debate and dialogue as a means to muddy the issues and keep the" flame " of argument going.


Perhaps you missed the identity of the poster who brought the issue back up? Let me refresh your memory, thusly and like so:

A Former Pastor said...

...

The one fact alone that the staff gave $25,000 of God’s money to support a woman pastor and support a ministry that is pro homosexual and pro abortion is enough evidence that their handling of church funds is seriously in need of being monitored by the membership.


"Semi-professional liars and knee jerk accusers," Don? To whom do you refer, and is that a way to discuss issues at hand?

--Mike

concernedSBCer said...

I call trying times like these a "crisis of faith." These times serve as an opportunity to really delve into scripture and see what God has said, not what so-and-so has said. Scripture does divide but it strengthens those who truly study. My heart breaks because there are many who have been mislead and may be resting under the big tent instead of walking on the narrow path towards the narrow gate.

Thank you all for continually striving to study and understand scripture and challenging me to do the same. The study of God's word is never time wasted and it does come back when you need it. It sure makes me want to be really sure before I post! LOL!

Lindon said...

FYI

Did anyone else see the post JMO removed? In this post, JMO said that several people were logging in under the JMO moniker and these people had been enjoying watching us try and figure out who it is.

I did manage to copy part of it above...as you see by my heading JMO Multiple personalities...

concernedSBCer said...

lindon: I read it....it said that the JMO posting yesterday was too gentle and would not be posting again.

Unknown said...

Psalm 43:3 said...
Has anyone received the BBC budget in the mail? We normally get a copy of the budget mailed to us this time each year. I think the church is supposed to vote on it on Sunday, March 25.


I heard from a deacon that the budget will be discussed in great detail this year.

karen

socwork said...

yes, lindon, I saw it.

David Hall said...

Cakes here,

Is Bratton quoting scripture? For crying out loud--oi, is there no Gaines/Coombs apologists blog he might frequent? Oh yeah, it's called the Bratton Report and he doesn't visit there much either obviously. By continuing to come here to berate good people, he's disobeying Gai...er, scripture. I was there ordination night to see the production, so I know.

He likes the word "clique" eh, and uses it with not the slightest pang of irony, condidering the pious clowns for which he carries water.(e.g. a pastor that was incurious regarding a pedophile and the new CEO...er, executive pastor that covered his keister with law-yers and consultants. Yes, that denotes a lack of respect for these two--you'd feel likewise if you'd been snuck into your neighbor's garage when you were a wee sprout for purposes that cannot even be stated here. Gaines shouldn't be trusted to run a lemonade stand, much less a church.)

Likewise, no irony quoting verses regarding humility and Pharasees--hahaha is all I can say. Bratton never demonstrates either love or humility here; nor does he demonstrate the ferosity of action when dealing with his beloved leadership.

I've read the Bratton blog--it's pretty much "please, dear pastor sir, purdy pulease your worship, we need a bidness meeting; but oh, annointed of God, if'n you don't, then I won't exact a qualifier."

So, padre gets a puppy in Bratton, and BBCOF gets the cut-n-paste pit bull.

Lindon said...

Don, you make a good point. I was just reading this last night:

2 Corinthians 11:13-15

13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

15So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

Mike Bratton said...

Lindon said...
"instead of misusing someone else's analogy, perhaps you could tell everyone just what behaviors revoke a Christian's salvation?"

Hebrews 10: 26-31


That is absolutely fascinating, "Lindon."

So, let me get this straight. You're of the opinion that a Christian--someone who has, beyond the shadow of any doubt or peradventure, been saved by God's grace through faith--can behave in such a way as to forfeit, revoke or nullify his or her salvation, and once again become someone who is unsaved and hell-bound?

--Mike

Lynn said...

Hey folks,

First off, I think you can designate your United Way donations to certain organizations and not just United Way in General.


And I have not received this year's budget yet. But then again, I was probably kicked off the membership rolls when I e-mailed Tim Shelton and told him I wasn't coming back to Bellevue until Gaines and the Bellevue Mafia leave.

Unknown said...

koragg,

That's "God Squad" to you, buddy! :)

I sent you an email.


karen

upside down said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Unknown said...

amy,

Would you email me, please? I have a GBC question.

Thanks!

karen

Lindon said...

Hebrews 10:26-31


26For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

And Matthew 7 taught about professing believers:

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Lindon said...

offine..got a dinner date with a 6 year old

New BBC Open Forum said...

mike bratton wrote:

"And "mom," to coin a phrase, it's not about me."

Could've fooled me.

Lynn said...

Karen,

Did you send it to my work address or home address? If it was to my work address, I'll have to respond tomorrow morning to it as I'm home right now. :)

Lynn

Piglet said...

Boy, a lot going on since my 3:19 post.

It is dissappointing to me that we are having this conversation with christians inside the church (I know some may question their salvation, but I've already been accused of that without having even done it). I've heard this attitude from the lost and from the liberal media but now it's next to us in the pew.

Although dissappointing, it is not bad that we are having this discussion because it just sheds more light on the deception taking place in our midst, the twisting of theology, the accommodation of sin under the misuse of the verse "judge that ye be not judged".

Wanting godly leaders above reproach is too much to ask? Apparently, according to some - even those who have had the luxury of sitting under one such godly leader. I'm not sure why they would settle for less but mine is not to understand why.

Mike pretended to respond to my post by calling me a Pharisee, which did not address any points but simply reduced him to name calling.

But in my absence, you folks have done a wonderful job of setting him straight- although he'll never admit it. :)

concernedSBCer said...

Piglet, The thing is that questioning salvation wasn't really questioned until he brought it up. (At least that's how I saw it.) The points were being made that the donation to FUMC was not a good stewardship of the church's money because they (FUMC) did not adhere to scripture. Then it became a "Oh so now you are judging and saying they are not saved." As far as I'm concerned, Once Saved, Always Saved....you can be wandering in the wrong direction but still be on the path. Anyway, seems so black/white to me......

WatchingHISstory said...

a former pastor

Is your belief in depravity such that while we are not as evil as we can be we are dead in sin and our only hope for salvation is to be elected according to the grace of God?
Are there degrees of lostness? Are some sinners more dead than others? Are some sinners less blinded by Satan than others?
Doesn't the Bible say that the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against ALL ungodliness and unrighteousness of men . . . so that they are without excuse?
Yes, I intentionally used the word, election. I want to exalt the Lord constructively.

sickofthelies said...

Lindon said...
FYI

Did anyone else see the post JMO removed? In this post, JMO said that several people were logging in under the JMO moniker and these people had been enjoying watching us try and figure out who it is.

SOTL says:

Well, I find this quite telling. There are people on here hurting, and all these people can do is to sit back and laugh at the pain experienced by others? Entertainment at our expense?

And THEY call themselves Christians????

I want no part of these people or their so called "church"...all it is now is an building with cruel hateful people.

Like the bumper sticker said:

Dear God,

Protect me from your people.

Amy said...

Karen,
You have mail!

Anonymous said...

Koragg: What was Tim Shelton suppose to do, come to your house and beg you not to leave after you emailing him about BROTHER STEVE and the "Bellevue Mafia" as you put it??

Many of you say you are aware MOST of the members of Bellevue love Brother Steve and are 100% behind him, but you continue to your hate filled posts and gossip. Why??

Again, many of us love Brother Steve and thank God everyday for him.

Brother Steve and the staff at Bellevue have my full support and will remain at Bellevue until God says otherwise.

New BBC Open Forum said...

THERE'S A NEW THREAD. MOVE UP, PLEASE!

Thank you,

NBBCOF

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