10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that [sheep], than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
Please continue your discussions of the most important issues you see facing Bellevue today. What will it take to restore your trust in our church leadership?
645 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 645 Newer› Newest»Thank you Tim for sharing about your meeting. I am still leary.
Totally off topic and everything else, but did anyone on this blog ever go to BMA camp? I got out the song book from my days at BMA camp, both as a camper and as a Whitefoot. Remember Dr. Woychuk?
Remember singing this song:
He giveth more grace when the burdens grow greater; He sendeth more strength when the labors increase. To added afflication He addeth His Mercy; to multiplied trials, His multiplied peace. His love has no limit; His grace has no measure; His power has no boundary known unto men. For out of His infinite riches in Jesus, He giveth and giveth and giveth again.
Halleluah Amen.
Sheepless,
I forwarded you the email I received. Did anyone else get this?
This is what Amy posted: I personally am grateful for his sensitivity to the interest of many members and openness in addressing these during this meeting. There was a tremendous feeling of optimism on my part that perhaps with this sensitivity, openness and honesty that the membership of Bellevue Baptist Church may indeed be restored to oneness by the bonds of love in truth provided through our great Savior, Jesus Christ.
---Is that how Tim Collins feels?
Does anyone really think BBC will be restored to oneness by the bonds of love in truth provided through our great Savior Jesus the Christ?
This person who said this or believes this must think BBC only hurt one person in it's history. Does anyone think there is only one person hurt. I know who the one is PW's son that is who the person is thinking of, but BBC has hurt more than one person and more than two people in it's history. and nobody should think for one second that they will not lie to you all who are still at BBC still about people who no longer are there. that is not rumor that is the truth. but the lie is just trust them they will not hurt anyone, nor have they. Warning do not trust bibical guidance--Warning do not go to them for help-- Warning listen to me not those people. If you let them hurt you, I will be upset, and hurting for you.
lily,
I went to BMA Camp!!! Ringgold, Louisiana. I still have some of my BMA verse booklets!!!
The answer is yes. I did send out the email to all of those that signed the petition and gave a valid email address.
Perhaps I should have said that I was cautiously optomistic. It is my sincerest hope that this same sensitivity, openness and honesty can be addressed to each hurt within the body. There is no question that this has not yet occured, but open communication in one area should lead to all others.
I am Tim Coggins and I approve this message.
Tim
I did get your e-mail and NOOO!!!I do not believe that this is anything to be Optimistic about..Cover Cover Cover!!!!!
Did they offer to give the addresses or anything else that the integrity group has asked for???
By the way has anyone heard from Sister Pam since they called to ask to drop her and Brother Charles from the BFS class. Could you say intimidation????
No I do not trust any of this group. We that signed the petition will probably all receive the phone call.
From what you just said at 8:18 PM, March 03, 2007
Tim,
You sound like a man who really cares, but sometimes the only a person that people like they will listen to is a lawyer. I am not saying anyone is calling one but is what I think it will take in some cases of what BBC did. They flat out believe lies and speak them at the same time, that has already been found out. I believe in people going to church court not 201 poplar first, I believe in ignoring some matters if possible though I believe 201 poplar maybe needed in some cases. and I believe in warning people so they will not hurt anyone anymore, I don't want them to make anyone cry.
Tim,
Thank you for the update. Most who keep up with this blog know that I've been a supporter of David Coombs from day one. I hope that your meeting has provided you a glimpse of an honest man, one I've known to have high integrity for all the years I've known him.
It is also interesting that now people on this blog, lwood for instances, will see you as a part of the cover-up. The Bible has instructions as to how we should treat one another. I will be interested in seeing more of your comments concerning the meeting on this blog.
noname,
Do you have a clue as to what the Bible states about taking a brother to court?
If you are so interested in the truth, then why are your not shouting at the top of your lungs about the lies on this board. It was stated as if fact many times that the victim was not interviewed. You guys can't see you way for the blindness in your own eyes. A person truly searching for truth will hold both sides accountable. What say all?
While it's encouraging that some in leadership are at least talking, rather than just blowing off any dissent as in the past, it is advisable not to read too much into it one way or the other. Dialog is important and can be productive, if both parties come to the table in a sincere desire to come together on important issues. Any hidden agendas, however, would only complicate the issues further...I'm not saying anyone has hidden agendas...but for dialog to bear real fruit, all must be emptied of personal motives or agendas. "Let your yes be yes, and your no be no."
Amy said...
Sheepless,
I forwarded you the email I received. Did anyone else get this?
8:01 PM, March 03, 2007
Sheepless said,
Thanks, Amy. I got the email also, I signed my name to the petition, just had not read the email before seeing your post.
socwork wrote: "And it seems to me you might be missing the point of what some of us are concerned about: Regardless of the results of the investigation, the fact that THE victim was not interviewed for this investigation, even after repeated requests to do so, is a serious problem." 8:05 PM, February 22, 2007
socwork, it seems that you were so resolved in your position. Now that Tim Coggins has revealed that yes they did in fact interview THE victim what say you now?
Tim, Just curious, did they agree to share full financials, meeting minutes, etc?
A meeting with IDC was very savvy on their part. This scandal is staying in the public eye tooooo long.
This was told to Tim by people who have consistently not been forthcoming. Not to mention certain people who PROTECTED a pedophile minister for 7 mos. Dr. Hannaford's letter told a different story.
If the victim was interviewed, I think that is great news. Although Tim's e-mail does not answer all my questions, I would say this is definitely a step in the right direction that this communication has happened. In other words, I don't think this is a "case closed" piece of information, but it is worth consideration. I'm curious about the information that is conflictual, so I will just have to watch and see as this develops further.
This still begs the question, however, if THE victim was interviewed, who is referred to in the investigative committee's report that was not interviewed?
All said, I'm glad the victim was interviewed, if indeed he was.
That's just one of the issues I personally am concerned about, however. :)
lindon: "Tim, Just curious, did they agree to share full financials, meeting minutes, etc?"
lindon, I have been a member of BBC for a number of years. The full financials have never been available to membership. Obviously most of those years were under the leadership of Dr. Rogers. What is your position on the recent revelation that the victim was interviewed? In light of this being one of the charges on this blog as well as on the petition a honest response would be appreciated.
yes, lindon, I am concerned about that piece of inforamtion as well (the letter by Dr. H).
I can't easily discount that report and feel that it would be foolish for me to do so.
I am glad to hear this communication has happened, but I'm too skeptical to get overly optimistic about this.
socwork, why no retraction? If there were mistakes made on the "other" side then the voices blogging would be loud and contentious. But is there not some admission of wrong discernment on your part? Are you like Bro. Steve, too proud to admit error? Or do we have different standards? If you are going to call people of integrity like David Coombs to task then you should have enough integrity yourself to admit your error of judgement.
New BBC Open Forum: Will you be posting Tim's email as a forum topic? Will you be asking for opinions in light of this new information? Will there be fairness and a genuine search for truth on this blog?
lindon wrote: "This was told to Tim by people who have consistently not been forthcoming. Not to mention certain people who PROTECTED a pedophile minister for 7 mos. Dr. Hannaford's letter told a different story."
9:33 PM, March 03, 2007
lindon, you may want to revise that comment. David was not on staff until Jan 1, 2007 after PW was exposed by the leadership and the news. I know that once David learned of the situation that he told Bro. Steve that PW needed to be removed from the church property pending an investigation. Again another wrong assumption by one who doesn't know the facts. This is why for months I've posted. There are way too many instances that you guys are not looking for the truth. There is more to the Hannaford situation than you are aware. And again you would be wrong with your assumption.
jmo,
Please do not get your head too far into the clouds with your arrogance and spite. The full story is still unknown and your sole purpose for coming on this blog has always proven to cause division and strife. You aggitate and aggravate people with your choice of words and to me that shows anything but Christlikeness. If you cannot refrain from spite and word your posts in a positive Christian manner, just don't post. These are difficult times, no one needs your coldness stabbing already hurting hearts.
jmo,
I suspected that you again did not really want to dialogue, but would be condescending in your response to me. However, I responded to your questions for the sake of the readers of this blog.
I told you that if the victim was interviewed, I think that is great.
Who is the victim referenced in the investigative report who was not interviewed?
jmo,
As was stated, there is conflicting information concerning the interview...which as far as I can see hasn't been completely resolved as yet...so don't expect mass retractions until those things are resolved..one meeting hasn't cleared all things up. I can't help but wonder if it had not been for this blog and IDC, if there would have ever been a sit down at all. So before you go off too much about this blog, consider what brought it here in the first place...in other words be just as persistent about the issues that brought it into existence as you are about it's content, and YOU might gain more credibility. Just a thought.
JMO,
I think there are more questions to be answered before you jump up and down and hollering victory. What we have heard today does not necessarily constitute evidence. It is possibly hopeful, but it is foolish to think that this answers everything.
Tim has been sent an email responding to what was posted by Amy. The Report indicated that a “key witness” had not been interviewed. The victim had a meeting on January 11th with approximately 13 others present. This was his fifth request for such a meeting and he and his wife let it be known they were not happy with the process. He had another meeting with his attorney to review a draft of the report and a third meeting the Saturday before the Report was released. I am assuming we now these meetings were “interviews.”
It would be simpler to say:
The victim did not agree to participate in the investigation because he did not trust the process…he did tell them that on more than one occasion and it is on tape.
Every meeting he had with anyone associated with the investigation, he initiated (he was contacted about reviewing the draft so I guess that does not count)
The reason he “met” with us was to communicate his concern about how we were conducting the process and its impact on him
This he said/she said stuff is not going to get anywhere. Hopefully, the tape will be transcribed if “he” feels it necessary to put speculation and stories to rest.
Just my opinion wrote>>>>>
Are you like Bro. Steve, too proud to admit error?
HUMMMM interesting statement....:)
"lindon, I have been a member of BBC for a number of years. The full financials have never been available to membership. Obviously most of those years were under the leadership of Dr. Rogers. "
We would have to define what full financials are. I am not talking about line items. But a category budget. You all never saw one of those under Rogers, either?
"What is your position on the recent revelation that the victim was interviewed? In light of this being one of the charges on this blog as well as on the petition a honest response would be appreciated. "
I have to consider the source of the information. So far, your buddies have been less than forthcoming about most things. I will say that letter read like one of the most carefully crafted pieces I have read in a long time.
And the timing of the meeting is curious. The facts are: people are leaving, the publicity on this scandal has not blown over. People from all over the world are tuning in. Requesting a meeting with IDC looks like the only real option they had. They sure took their time about it.
I would be concerned about the quality of teaching from the pulpit and the ignoring of scriptural precepts, too. Those are harder to explain away. Quite frankly, you can't explain them away.
"I know that once David learned of the situation that he told Bro. Steve that PW needed to be removed from the church property pending an investigation."
David Brown can probably shed more light on this, but if his version of events as reportedly told to him by David Coombs is correct, a minimum of 1 1/2 weeks passed between the time Mr. Coombs learned of PW's "moral failure" and the time PW was removed from church property. He was reportedly still in his office on 12-15, just two days before Steve Gaines' admission of PW's "moral failure" to the congregation.
Of course, just because Mr. Coombs might have told Steve Gaines PW needed to be removed, doesn't mean SG did so. I guess the buck does ultimately stop with him.
JMO,
You act as if you know something as fact. However, make sure your facts line up with was has been recorded before you get into too much speculation.
This situation is over and done with. Only time will tell whether the "one" person who can silence all this speculation will validate or invalidate what others are saying he did.
"lindon, you may want to revise that comment. David was not on staff until Jan 1, 2007 after PW was exposed by the leadership and the news."
Did I mention Coombs' name in that sentence? But, I doubt very seriously if you could make a case that he was NOT a part of the inner circle before that.
"I know that once David learned of the situation that he told Bro. Steve that PW needed to be removed from the church property pending an investigation. Again another wrong assumption by one who doesn't know the facts. This is why for months I've posted. There are way too many instances that you guys are not looking for the truth."
You are presenting Coombs here as the savior of this church, the voice of reason and integrity. If David were the man of integrity you claim he is, he would be leading the charge for Gaines to be sent packing. Gaines did NOT make a mistake of the heart. Nor was it a mistake at all. He willfully ignored scripture as a pastor. And made many other very stupid decisions that were worldly and unbiblical.
" There is more to the Hannaford situation than you are aware. And again you would be wrong with your assumption."
Then tell us.
I asked earlier but have not received a response.Has anyone any information on Sister Pam and Brother Charles. I do miss her post.
mom4, I would suggest that you not read any tone into my posts that may not be intended. You may recall that I've asked time and again that people not work off suppositions. The truth as I've stated is not that difficult to find. You only have to ask..
Have any of you called David Coombs and asked him to clarify any of your concerns?
I don't work on speculation...I post what I know to be true from people that are in a position to know. Yea, this will get me some negative remarks from some. But the same people I ask are available to others. I just ask the questions where I need answers.
Jmo,
I must have read "smart aleck" into the tone of your post. "If" I have misjudged your intent, I apologize - sound familiar?
jmo says:
Have any of you called David Coombs and asked him to clarify any of your concerns?
SOTL says:
Umm, yes, i TRIED to have a conversation with your hero, and it didn't go well.
Of course, he also offered no excuse as to why he broke the HIPPA laws regarding my file being in HIS possession
"I just ask the questions where I need answers."
And believing them based on a track record.
"Of course, he also offered no excuse as to why he broke the HIPPA laws regarding my file being in HIS possession."
This one bothers me quite a bit.
gotta go guys. I am sorry I am going to miss more of JMO's spin on the savior of BBC.
g'night.
lin says:
"Of course, he also offered no excuse as to why he broke the HIPPA laws regarding my file being in HIS possession."
This one bothers me quite a bit.
10:37 PM, March 03, 2007
sotl says:
You are not alone, it worries me too.
JMO said
There are way too many instances that you guys are not looking for the truth. There is more to the Hannaford situation than you are aware. And again you would be wrong with your assumption.
Piglet says:
The information Tim had previously came from two people directly related to the investigation. Further clarification of the facts has led to a slightly different conlusion. If Tim were not looking for the truth he would not be sharing these new developments with us.
There is still plenty we don't know.
SOLT, when you learn to show a respectful attitude and minimal social graces when approaching someone you may find that person to be more easily approached. But since David and his son have made statements contrary to yours then I will assume that David failed to hear your improper comment. If you have a question pending call David on the phone. I would suggest that you do try to be pleasant, maybe a spirit of love toward a brother in Christ could be your mindset.
Piglet wrote: "There is still plenty we don't know."
This we can agree. And the lack of information forthcoming to all has been an issue. And yes I have told David my feelings on this. The concern is where do you stop with providing and my answer was when people quit asking. Therefore, I will state again call David and ask him your questions. But please don't go with a defensive attitude but as one who has Christ's love in their heart. I think, like Tim, you will be pleasantly surprised in David's openness and his honesty. David said that he wasn't offended by Tim's petition but was offended that someone had said that he walked by and ignored them. He truly does care about the membership regardless of what some may have you believe.
sotl, notice JMO did not address the file. And, we have heard from 2 witnesses that you WERE respectful and that Coombs laughed in your face.
(Yawning...really must go but hate it when sotl is treated like this....AGAIN....and AGAIN. Especially since we have seen how 'disrespectful' Coombs' own son has been on this blog!)
Tree=Fruit. Remember?
lin wrote: "gotta go guys. I am sorry I am going to miss more of JMO's spin on the savior of BBC."
Just the facts, baby!
Memphis won tonight. That is a fact. You can debate how well they did or did not play but you can't debate the final score. But by stating the fact of the win some may say I'm putting a spin on it. Hmmmm
"Therefore, I will state again call David and ask him your questions."
Very bad idea. Based on the track record. Coombs needs to PUBLICLY answer questions since the Shepherd won't. Too easy to deny he said what he said in a phone call or that he was misunderstood.
Tim, did they agree to a meeting? The membership list?
JMO, you are causing me a lack of sleep with your spin. :o)
jmo wrote:
"David was not on staff until Jan 1, 2007 after PW was exposed by the leadership and the news."
Then why was he officially speaking for Steve Gaines and Bellevue Baptist Church on 12-15-06?
And I'm just curious about something else. Who exactly hired David Coombs? I mean, the congregation certainly didn't vote on his "appointment," and since we are supposed to be "congregationally approved" and all... it just seems like a reasonable question.
lin I doubt that you know either SOTL or David Coombs personally. I've had a chance to inspect David's fruit for many many years. He loves the Lord and our church. Again, I will stand up for someone I know versus a screen name that I don't know.
"Just the facts, baby!
Memphis won tonight. That is a fact. You can debate how well they did or did not play but you can't debate the final score. But by stating the fact of the win some may say I'm putting a spin on it. Hmmmm "
Biggest non answer there is avoiding serious questions. More spin. Clever, though.
Tell us about Hannaford.
lin I doubt that you know either SOTL or David Coombs personally. I've had a chance to inspect David's fruit for many many years. He loves the Lord and our church. Again, I will stand up for someone I know versus a screen name that I don't know.
jmo says:
I would suggest that you do try to be pleasant, maybe a spirit of love toward a brother in Christ could be your mindset.
SOTL says:
Yeah, right. This man ILLEGALLY has THE MOST PERSONAL details of my life, after i had been PROMISED and PROMISED that it would be confidential...and I'm suppose to have a spirit of love towards him?
What about Him having a spirit of love and RESPECT for my personal information? I dont' see that coming from HIM..and after all, he IS a minister.
He has pilfered my personal life, with no remorse, no apology, no nothing. Just arrogance.
I am only human. I am NOT Jesus. the man OWES me a HUGE apology.
We are talking with our attorney about what can be done about his snooping and pilfering my personal file..
"lin I doubt that you know either SOTL or David Coombs personally. I've had a chance to inspect David's fruit for many many years. He loves the Lord and our church. Again, I will stand up for someone I know versus a screen name that I don't know. "
I DO NOT have to know Bill Clinton personally to know he is a reprobate by his actions.
I do not have to know David Coombs personally to know he has integrity problems because of his actions with this pastor.
"I doubt that you know either SOTL or David Coombs personally. I've had a chance to inspect David's fruit for many many years. He loves the Lord and our church. Again, I will stand up for someone I know versus a screen name that I don't know."
And...one cannot love the Lord without loving His Word and contending for it. Coombs had not done that he is going along with a pastor that IGNORED THE WORD. Where is his integrity.
Do you really think that if you say that about Coombs 5000 times on this board we will believe it and ignore reality? IT has become a mantra for you. When I see a mantra like that, I know there are problems. And that mantra only makes me question your integrity and knowledge of the Word. What little I have, I know has been ignored by your hero.
When i was told that I would have to go to counseling before i could VOLUNTEER for vbs, I did NOT want to go. I pleaded with them not to make me go. I was told that it would be confidential and would never leave the counseling office.
I lost sleep worrying about going.
I dreaded it.
But out of obedience, i went.
See where it got me?
new BBC open forum, David spoke as the head of the investigative team. The decision to hire David on staff originated from some of our lay leadership who felt that a man of his integrity and honesty was needed to help lead our church. The recommendation was made to Bro. Steve and he accepted. Just for the record Dr. Rogers made decisions of this kind without consultation of others. Do you recall voting to give the land to Mid-America? The first I heard was when the TV stations was interviewing Dr. Rogers and making the statement that Dr. Rogers had given the land to Mid-America.
By the way, are you going to post Tim's email? I trust that you want the truth out front. You were quick to post Tim's petition which contained the wording that David and the committee did not interview the victim. Many of the people who signed the petition mentioned that statement as the reason for doing so. And now we know that it was an untruth!
SOTL, I cannot resolve your anger on this board. If you will send me an email I will personally work to establish a meeting between you and David.
Tim's email.
Thank you for your prayers, support and signatures concerning this matter. There are some additional details that I have become aware in the past week. It is important in my opinion that you be made aware of these details.
On February 26, I was contacted and invited to meet for lunch with David Coombs, Mark Dougharty and Mike Hobday. At my request I was allowed to invite two other gentlemen to the meeting. Both of the men that I invited are members of Integrity Does Count, Inc. and well qualified to speak concerning the current issues surrounding the Church.
During this meeting, some very significant information was presented that I felt obligated to share with you concerning the Investigation Committees interview process. It would be negligent on my part to suppress the information that was given at this meeting. It is my intent to convey this information to you in openness and honesty, without regard to how the light of truth reflects on a personal level.
David Coombs stated clearly and precisely that the victim had been interviewed three times for a period of over six hours during the investigation. The setting of the interview was not precisely as the victim preferred, but there were some concessions made to accommodate him in this process. This information was in direct contrast to what had previously been stated by three separate parties in communications and correspondence that I had received. The only response that I offered Mr. Coombs, at that meeting, was that I had extremely conflicting information from sources closely associated with the victim.
Over the past several days, I have contacted sources and reviewed the original correspondence received to verify the accuracy of what had been understood. The results of that review process have led me to believe that the concerns that were held by these sources were of methodology in the interview process. They related that their opinion was that methodology employed did not offer concessions that were necessary. There was also the opinion that the interview process did not offer the ability to present factual information in entirety upon which to derive a conclusion concerning issues beyond the employment status of Paul Williams. It is apparent, however, that the investigative process did include multiple interviews with the victim.
David Coombs further stated that each individual involved in the investigation reviewed the final report and were given the ability to amend the report as to factual content if necessary. The final report was also given to members of the Rogers’ family to review and offer any corrections or modifications that they deemed necessary. It has been verified by one of those involved in the investigation that they did receive and were given the opportunity to review and modify the report. Many others that were involved in the investigative process I do not hold a personal relationship with, and feel that I should not impose upon them to address this issue.
The meeting afforded the opportunity to discuss several other issues affecting the church and seemed to open a door of communication that had previously been closed. The voice of many members of Bellevue Baptist Church has been heard and the administration through David Coombs has responded in a positive and constructive manner. I personally am grateful for his sensitivity to the interest of many members and openness in addressing these during this meeting. There was a tremendous feeling of optimism on my part that perhaps with this sensitivity, openness and honesty that the membership of Bellevue Baptist Church may indeed be restored to oneness by the bonds of love in truth provided through our great Savior, Jesus Christ.
To conclude I would like to reiterate that every attempt has been made to express the truth concerning this particular issue without regard to the effects of that truth on a personal level. Constructing this letter has proved how difficult it can be to effectively communicate pertinent information of relevance devoid of omissions. It has reminded me of the wonderful gift that we have been given in the infallible, inerrant, indestructible Word of God.
Thank you again for your support and encouragement,
Tim Coggins
JMO
We DO know that according to law, we should already have certain documented information in our possession that has been withheld. I still take issue with that and contend that someone who has nothing to hide, hides nothing.
To date, that has not changed.
"You were quick to post Tim's petition which contained the wording that David and the committee did not interview the victim."
The whole committee interviewed the victim?
This thing gets fishier and fishier by the minute. What about hannaford????
"SOTL, I cannot resolve your anger on this board. If you will send me an email I will personally work to establish a meeting between you and David."
Don't do it, sotl. You have already witnessed the 'real' Coombs.
JMO may be working on a new and improved Coombs...but is it real?
SOTL....you must kneel before the king!!!!! Arrogance and rudeness are only for those in power and those who appear to be in awe or in the pocket of those in power.....keep your place,girl!!!!
JMO,
I am not asking you to resolve my anger. This is not your problem.
It is not yours to fix.
I do not wish to set myself up for anymore humiliation at the hands of this man. I have suffered enough. I can't take anymore.
There's nothing left. No trust. No truth. No respect. No privacy.
All that is left if betrayal.
I have been betrayed AGAIN. They should have known better. Women like me have betrayal issues and then my own church betrays me in a manner that is unthinkable.
IF they had said to me 12 years ago, " ok, you have to go for counseling, and it is not necessarily confidential" do you think i would have gone? I was lied to.
The David Coombs that I have issues with is not the same man you describe.
Knowing what I know, it is particular offensive to me when I see you post about what a great guy he is. If he's such a great guy, then why did he RANDOMLY choose me to betray? I didn't know the guy from Adam prior to this. I am in this mess not of my own accord.
I do appreciate your offer, but that is not something that I can handle emotionally at this time.
gmommy and lin,
Standing firm!!
Thanks. :)
SOTL, just for the record, I believe that you mean to be referring to the HIPAA laws not the HIPPA laws. Are you aware that our staff signs confidentiality agreements which prevent them from disclosing your information. Also, your information as in a doctor's office is viewed by other associates due to filing and other actions. A doctor's office required all to sign a confidentiality agreement. I am sure that your attorney will explain this in detail to you. He will also ask what personal damages have arisen from the file being in David's possession.
lin, it is not my place to explain the Hannaford situation to you in details. And quite honestly I don't think that you would be open to the full explanation. So why should I try. It is obvious that you are not searching for truth.
jmo says:
Are you aware that our staff signs confidentiality agreements which prevent them from disclosing your information
sotl says:
HELLO? do you need to go back and read what i posted?
My information WAS disclosed to someone who had NO business having it. David Coombs was NOT my counselor. He has no business pilfering thru my file.
Also, you minimize my pain. What damages have I suffered. There is plenty of mental anguish.
They betrayed me. Apparently, that's not enuf for you. It's no big deal to YOU or to David Coombs.
Two peas in a pod.
JMO
Since you seem to know so much about how things work...answer this:
When someone goes to counseling at the biblical counseling office, are you telling us that your personal information is then available for ANYONE on staff to look at?
Who gets to decide who can read your file?
I was TOLD that NO ONE but my counselor would ever know what was said.
And here you are, defending the fact that DC was able to read my file.
piglet wrote: "We DO know that according to law, we should already have certain documented information in our possession that has been withheld. I still take issue with that and contend that someone who has nothing to hide, hides nothing."
Actually WE DO NOT know that is the case. That is not a completely true statement of the laws. I will not attempt to debate law on this board but be assured that the church leadership and attorneys are very comfortable with the position that was taken in David letter to the membership.
"I am sure that your attorney will explain this in detail to you. He will also ask what personal damages have arisen from the file being in David's possession."
Don't buy it, sotl. My former mega had a huge counseling center. Those files were NEVER allowed to leave that office and the SR pastor was NOT even allowed to see them.
Shame on you, JMO.
"I will not attempt to debate law on this board but be assured that the church leadership and attorneys are very comfortable with the position that was taken in David letter to the membership. "
Attorneys paid for with TITHE dollars.
What other "confidential" files has DC entertained himself with?
"it is not my place to explain the Hannaford situation to you in details. And quite honestly I don't think that you would be open to the full explanation. So why should I try. It is obvious that you are not searching for truth."
You are the one who says we do not know everything and are making assumptions. I take it you do know. So I am asking. If it is not your place, then quit telling us we are making assumptions.
The truth is in scriptures. And the only truth I need to know is that your hero is protecting a pastor who willfully ignored scripture.
All the other stuff are details that everyone is going to get lost in. I think that is exactly what you want. Those are easier to obfuscate and spin.
The big picture is that Gaines willfully ignored scripture and that does not seem to phase DC or he would not be working for him.
Does David Coombs have his own key to the filing cabinets in the Biblical Counseling office?
Anyone out there in lurk land considering Biblical Counseling at BBC, you better think a long time before you put your trust into those guys.
Your file is NOT confidential.
SOTL, I don't know for a fact that David had your files on his desk. That is your supposition but is not a known fact to me. I don't care where you go for healthcare needs your files will be available to other people. Some will see your files in a doctor's office as they transcribe his notes. Some who handled the filing will see your information. But if it is made public outside that office you have one very nice lawsuit.
Obviously I cannot ask David about your file because he would not discuss it with me. And I wouldn't ask anyway.
JMO
David Coombs called me regarding my file. My husband had to go to his office to pick it up. I had to sign a release for my husband to get my file from DC.
FACT!
So now you retreat with casting doubt on the story.
Your file is NOT confidential.
And tithe dollars go to pay attorneys to keep members from seeing the financials, meeting minutes, etc.
QUESTION:
Is David Coombs in the counseling office?
Answer:
NO
Question:
Was DAvid Coombs responsible for typing or filing your file?
ANSWER:
NO
David Coombs is NOT associated with the counseling office.
So to take your reasoning, since the typist or transcriptionist can see your file, it makes it ok for ANYONE else to see your file..Why, they can pass them around during lunch hour, and that would be ok, since,you know..it's ok for office people to see it.
David Coombs had no more business with my file than the maintenance people did.
Again, lurkers, STAY AWAY FROM THE COUNSELING OFFICE UNLESS YOU WANT YOUR FILE SHARED WITH ANYONE WHO WANTS TO SEE IT.
One would think that DC would have more important things to do then to be interested in the contents of my file.
So the question remains,
" why did he have it"?
jmo
I do not expect you to fix the problem..
Just please do not defend what DC did.
It was reprehensible.
So first Mike S admits before catching himself that every file in the Biblical Guidance office is being "gone thru" to see who might have had contact with PW...then JMO rationalizes WHY everyone gets to go thru our information that we believed at the time was completely confidential.... very painful stuff for anyone who cares.....I am still wondering why PW wanted to discuss perverted sex when I was asking about scripture being discussed in my SS class??????? And WHY did he want to "help" me with my son when I didn't ask...oh yes....sexual deviant... kept on payroll and free to gratify himself under the umbrello of BBC AFTER his confession to the SR pastor....it doesn't matter HOW the law is spelled...it is sinful and abusive to the flock. How much more repulsive can we make this???? The fact that the 2 men that could have spoken up to stop the assumption made from the glimpse of CH letter did not speak up and allowed whoever it was initially to run with this does not make this about a game or a win for the SG or DC team. Unless JMO IS DC,I believe DC would be repulsed by this "WIN". I think DC is a brute but I totally understand why he would want to clear up the misinformation about the interview. And Tim was much quicker to disclose this information than the "winners" have been about anything from day one! NOTHING else has changed...this is not a win for anyone.This is a shameful, sad, and sinful scandle....and the Sr pastor thinks he has done nothing wrong. I BET the lay people wanted DC to come on board!!!He is a brute...NOT completely unstable as the Sr pastor appears to be. If DC can step up to the plate and be the person with the guts to do what the weak and trembling money brokers cannot do....good!!!SOMEONE CALLED DC .....it would be very telling to KNOW who originally brought him in. It was right that DC not be accused of showing compassion for the victim.....and Tim was NOT too prideful to step up as soon as he knew to. NOTHING else is erased. NO ONE WINS!!!!! BBC is a shell of the church it once was. There have been no consequences for those that did not obey scripture or protect the flock or the heritage of our church. The only person who has shown himself to be unstable and arrogant enough to possibly see this misinformation disclosed today as a WIN would be PW or SG himself.....
Hi, SOTL,
I'm sure I missed it when you first discussed this, but, if it wouldn't be too much to ask (and I completely understand if it is), can you fill in some of the details about DC having your file? You said he called you, and you signed a release for your husband to pick up the file. What was the reason you were called about it to begin with? Was he seeking information from you, or had you asked BBC for the file? Did you ask why he had it? Were you given any reason? If this is none of my business, I won't mind if you say so. Just trying to understand what led to this, especially with the very different opinions being expressed by JMO.
remember those cool little recorders...they work on phones too....every file was gone thru. That was wrong...no matter how you spell it.
Junkmail,
After the story broke about PW, and it was learned that he had also counseled volunteers before they could work, I became concerned as to who, exactly, did my " counseling" 12 years ago. It was such a long time ago, that i could not remember, and under the circumstances, I HAD to know if it was Paul Williams.
I called the children's ministry first, because they were the ones that FORCED me to go to counseling. Twelve years ago, I had a LONG talk with Deborah Housel about the need for counseling before I could VOLUNTEER.
So when I called her office, I spoke with someone who worked in her office and she told me that she would contact the counseling office and have someone call me.
A couple of days later, DAVID COOMBS called me. He has my file and he reports to me that Paul Williams did not do my counseling.
Fine. Now i have a NEW issue. What was my file doing outside of the counseling office and why did David Coombs have it. He is not associated with the counseling office in any shape or form.
I told them that i wanted my file. I guess that I foolishly thought that if i had my file,there would not be a duplicate. I still don't know that to be a fact.
Anyway, my husband went up to the church and picked up a release form from David Coombs office and brought it home for me to sign, and then took it back up there so that he could get my file.
He brought my file home. I had him to verify that Paul Williams was not the counselor on the file, and then I told him to hide the file, and that I never wanted to see it. I could not even conceive of knowing what all David Coombs had been able to read. And who else read it?
In case David Coombs denies that he and I had a conversation about my file, I have him on tape. I taped the telephone conversation.
And I"m glad I did. I see that JMO is already floating the idea that it never happened.
Who is "Mike S"? Someone on BBC staff?
Thanks, SOTL. The full story helps to dispel any misinformation that might be put forth. I'm so sorry you've had this experience.
Please address all questions to the one who knows all..the WINNER!!
Junkmail says:
Thanks, SOTL. The full story helps to dispel any misinformation that might be put forth. I'm so sorry you've had this experience.
12:36 AM, March 04, 2007
SOTL says:
Thanks for your kind words.
I say all this so that no one else will be fooled into thinking that their file is safe. Apparently, if David Coombs wants a file, he has access to it. You would think that somone from biblical counseling would have called me.
But David Coombs was the damage control guy, so, therefore, he has access to whatever he wants.
Whoever is reading this and thinking that biblical counseling is safe and confidential, think again! It is neither.
Have the cheers for the mighty win tonight stopped???????
gmommy,
It's a full time job to defend DC, and apparently, it wore JMO out.
offline
I absolutely hated to tell that MS said that but to call this horrible humiliating shame a win is just too far!UNless Dc iS worse than the brute I know him to be he would never encourage that ridiculous response. Someone needs to take JMO off blog watch...now HE is a liability.
gmommylv said...
So first Mike S admits before catching himself that every file in the Biblical Guidance office is being "gone thru"
junk99mail replies...
The reason I asked who you were referring to is that the only MS or Mike S I remember seeing discussed on this blog is Dr. Michael Spradlin. I was asking for clarification in case anyone else might have thought, like I did, that this might be who you meant. But I can't see any reason why he would have that information or would comment on it if he did. If that's not who you meant, please let us all know so as to avoid confusion. Thanks!
Not Mike Spradlin. Mike Stavropoulos, independent Human Resource Consultant with HR Mpact. He's listed in the IT report which is linked at the end of the "The Patient is in Critical Condition!" thread. Now go to bed! :-)
Thanks, NASS! Going now....
JMO wrote: "SOTL, I don't know for a fact that David had your files on his desk."
SOTL wrote: "So now you retreat with casting doubt on the story."
Unlike others on this board I would rather discuss facts that I'm aware when making comments. Just because I state that it is not a fact to me doesn't mean it's not a fact. And likewise because you may disagree with a statement I've made doesn't discount it to being a fact.
Thank you for clarifying why you knew that David had your files. It makes more sense to me now that he would have had it on his desk. He is the person in charge of administration so he would have to be the one who signed off on providing your files to you. I would assume that they felt a legal concern and were following the proper course of action. Now knowing that you've sought out a lawyer it was certainly a prudent thing to do.
The anger that you and gmommylv express is very disturbing. Many of this blog may praise your rhetoric but the slanderous comments and hate filled diatribe is certainly not the outpouring of someone whose being lead by the Holy Spirit. You can speak ill of me as well but wrong is wrong. And you and gmommylv are sinning every time that you post with the hateful statements.
JMO wrote:
"He is the person in charge of administration so he would have to be the one who signed off on providing your files to you."
You have to be kidding. I think perhaps you all need new lawyers. You are not getting good counsel. In fact, you are quite wrong about the above.
sotl, how long had DC been on staff when you found out he had your file? Had he been a part of the counseling office? Have the credentials to peruse private counseling files? Being the Sr administrator gives him no power to read private counseling files.
Your counseling office should have NEVER turned those files over. Only trained, credentialed counselors should have been directed to deal with this part. Even if they had to be a 3rd party brought in to deal with such sensitive information.
sotl, should have been contacted by a credentialed counselor from the office BEFORE her file was read even by a different counselor. And that is the rub, huh? They did not do that for a reason: Trying to contain this scandal.
An arguement can be made that DC's job is to protect the pastor. Why else have such unprofessional procedures attached to this investigation?
" I would assume that they felt a legal concern and were following the proper course of action. Now knowing that you've sought out a lawyer it was certainly a prudent thing to do."
Had they been following proper procedures Coombs would not have had her file. As I said, I know a bit about this and the SR pastor nor the senior administrator would ever be allowed a look at personal counseling files UNLESS the counselee gives written permission.
Think about it: The church demanded the counseling so she could volunteer.
I hope the credentialing authorities are reading this blog.
"The anger that you and gmommylv express is very disturbing. Many of this blog may praise your rhetoric but the slanderous comments and hate filled diatribe is certainly not the outpouring of someone whose being lead by the Holy Spirit. You can speak ill of me as well but wrong is wrong. And you and gmommylv are sinning every time that you post with the hateful statements. "
What you wrote here is hateful. And, Lying, deception and obfuscation are sin. (Rev 21) May want to ponder that.
Pot>kettle>black
Folks, this also makes me wonder if DC and SG are perusing tithing information on members. If Coombs feels he has the authority to look at private counseling files of members, then there is no telling what power he thinks he has.
Trust?
Really JMO, Your comments do nothing but show the contempt you SG and Coombs have for the privacy of victims who trusted their church's counseling services.
I am appalled.
lin asks:
sotl, how long had DC been on staff when you found out he had your file? Had he been a part of the counseling office? Have the credentials to peruse private counseling files? Being the Sr administrator gives him no power to read private counseling files.
SOTL SAYS:
David Coombs did not even come officially on staff until Jan. 1.It seems he had my file on Jan. 3. He came to us as a CFO of his former company. Chief Financial Officer does not exactly give one the credentials to peruse my personal files, or the files of anyone else.
He had as much right to my files as the cleaning crew.
sotl, please e-mail me
sickofthelies: david combs faxed your file to my friend pat sajak. unbelieveable!
Cary,
Go ahead and make jokes about a serious subject.
Didn't my husband already have a talk with you?
You know, a court order can produce your computer.
Bob,
Pardon my tone here, but, with all due respect, don't you have more important things to do in life than come here and harass people? I mean, if all your are doing is coming here to harass people, perhaps you should look deep into your own heart. You are really appearing to be quite immature. And for the record, the price is wrong Bob!
I believe that soon my family will be finding another church. I really don't want to leave BBC, but we cannot continue going to a church were we cannot even trust the leadership. Anyone have any advice? Sad, sad, sad.
The sheep are scattered, the sheep are wounded, the sheep are crying out, but HE is still on the throne. Look to Him. Hallelujah.
On the side, JMO - please study up on self rightousness, please study up on deceit, please study up on discernment.
Truthseeker,
It is a most difficult task when you finally come to terms with having to leave the church and fellowship that have been such a significant part of your life. My prayers are with you and your family. Once you make it past the "crossroad", He will lead you on.
That you for your prayers.
sheeplessatbbc said... I feel I am living the worst nightmare and I'm no longer sure that BBC will be restored to the great church it once was. Still waiting though.
Sheepless.... I know just how you feel..BBC has been our church home for 25 plus years....A lot of Love. a lot of laughter, a lot of tears with our dear friends at BBC.Now we are at a crossroads..Where to turn...Now is a time for a lot of prayers for our Great God to show us where he wants us to be. We still have a lot of love for our beloved Bellevue and hope that God in his time will turn things around. As another friend said this morning tho time is getting short for all of us. We were at the 9:30 service and a lot of empty seats...Dr. Gaines tried to be on the funny side with a lot of his stories and all I really remember were the two women behind us with a very loud laugh after each of his stories. Verry sad..So many have left and so many trying to make a decision of where to go.
Take comfort brethren...the LORD never forsakes His own. If/when the time comes to make that break, He will give grace for the hour. Like the eagle takes up its eaglets on its wings, He'll take you to where He wants you to go. We all need to be fed..if you're not fed at BBC, then you should find a place where you can be. The best advice I could give..and that from experience...don't try to stay longer, if the LORD is leading elsewhere...as hard as it is, it will only get worse if you don't move when He makes it clear it's time. I believe it was King Hezekiah who, after being told to put his house in order, because he was about to die, pleaded with the LORD for more time...the LORD granted him 15 more years...unfortunately, some of those years were some of the most sorrowful of his life. The LORD'S timing is always impeccable, and can be trusted implicitly.
lily wrote: "On the side, JMO - please study up on self rightousness, please study up on deceit, please study up on discernment."
lily, thanks for the advice. I am sure that some would think I've mastered in self righteousness already. I will take your concern about deceit and discernment to heart. In the leaders that I know personally I do not feel that I've been deceived. If you have read my blogs then you know that I have not finalized a position on our pastor. But he is our pastor and I respect that position.
I have had some friends who have left Bellevue. That is a disappointment to me personally. I believe that some will come to the decision that their heart is not longer in Bellevue and will choose to move to another church. I have so many friends and a great BFC so I will stay the course. I know that many get tired of hearing this but David Coombs will make a difference. You can see from Tim Coggins email that David has reached out to help bring our members together.
JMO-
Although Sunday School attendance, worship attendance, giving, baptisms, and decisions during the service are down, I would guess that many are waiting to see if SG will resign before they move to another church. It could be that members are waiting for the summer months before moving. If hundreds more leave, it will be interesting to see what will happen in the fall. Time will tell.
PART TWO
I now continue to comment on the sermon “When the Spirit comes” which the pastor preached on Sunday night, Feb. 25, the same night brother David Coombs was ordained.
The fourth and last point of the pastor’s sermon was “The Spirit is attacked with persecution (Acts 2:13).
This verse states, “But others were mocking and saying, "They are full of sweet wine."
Those who were mocking were the unsaved who were trying to discredit the miracle performed by the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost when He enabled them to speak in tongues they had never learned.
Subdivision A under the last point was, “Attacking the Holy Spirit is dangerous. Mark 3:22-29”
These verses tell of Jesus healing a man’s withered hand on the Sabbath. Verse 6 of this chapter says the Pharisees then went out and began to conspire how they might destroy Him, because they were offended that He performed this miracle on the Sabbath.
In verse 22 Mark said, “The scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, "He is possessed by Beelzebul," and "He casts out the demons by the ruler of the demons."
Jesus said in Matthew 5:20, "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.” So the scribes were unsaved people who were accusing Jesus of doing the work of the devil.
In verse 29 of Mark 3, Mark quotes Jesus Who said, "Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
So it was the unsaved, “the sons of men,” not the saved sons of God who were guilty of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
Over 400 people electronically signed the online petition in favor of postponing the ordination of brother David Coombs. History tells us that for every person who makes their opinion known by signing a petition there are usually several who are of the same mind who for one reason or another did not get their name on the list. So it could be there were as many as a thousand or two thousand members or maybe even more who were against the ordination proceeding at the time and under the circumstances which it did.
The pastor preached the sermon to which we have been referring immediately prior to the ordination, an action which was obviously considered by a large number of the membership to be an unwise thing to follow through with at the present time.
His sermon topic was apparently chosen to openly rebuke those who have been opposing the ordination and all the other inequities which have transpired in our church in recent months. In the unlikely case that the sermon was not chosen for that purpose, then it would seem that the Holy Spirit would not have led the pastor to use such a topic and outline since it would undoubtedly give the impression that it was chosen as a rebuke of the opposition.
The points of the sermon referring to the evil of attacking the Holy Spirit were supported by scriptures that were referring to the ungodly, unsaved people of the world who attack the Holy Spirit because they are in rebellion against God and all He stands for and because they love their sins and refuse to submit their lives to Him and be forced to give up those sins. They “love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil.”
By far, the overwhelmingly vast majority of people who are opposing the wrongdoing of the pastor and staff of our church are people who have been faithful, God-loving and God-honoring servants of the Lord and members of BBC for many years. They do not love sin and are in complete harmony with anything which the Holy Spirit does through the lives of those who love the Lord.
They are not attacking the work of the Holy Spirit. What should be obvious to all who are led by the Spirit is that they are instead opposing sin in the camp. The sin is of the more grievous sort because it is being committed by the leadership of our church.
The Holy Spirit doesn’t lead Christians to break the law by trespassing on private, fenced, posted property, harboring a pedophile, the commingling of funds, and refusing to release information to the members of a nonprofit organization which the law states is to be surrendered upon request.
When godly Christians oppose such violations of the law, they are not attacking the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit does not participate in breaking the laws of man which the Bible says are ordained by God. They are instead being led by the Holy Spirit to oppose what is obviously the works of the devil, even though it may be backslidden Christians through whom the devil is working.
When Peter opposed Jesus’ death on the cross, he may have thought he was acting on God’s behalf, but he was obviously deceived by Satan and Jesus most likely looked straight at Peter in Mark 8:33 “But turning around and seeing His disciples, He rebuked Peter and said, "Get behind Me, Satan; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's."
Had Peter been so inclined, and had the Holy Spirit already come, which of course at this point in time He hadn’t, he could have accused Jesus of attacking the Holy Spirit. After all he was expressing his opposition to the crucifixion of Jesus. Is that not a most honorable thing to do?
In spite of what would appear to be a very reasonable defense of Peter’s remark to Jesus, Jesus spoke to the devil and not to Peter proving that the devil was using Peter to say what was said. There is no record indicating that Peter responded to what Jesus said to Satan. He probably realized he was wrong and therefore remained silent.
Subdivision B under the last part of the sermon was “Attacking the Holy Spirit is rebellious. Acts 7:51" This verse says, "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.”
This was Stephen’s final sermon just before they stoned him to death. He began by addressing them as “brethren and fathers” in verse two, a sign of respect although they weren’t his spiritual brethren.
They were unsaved Jews and thus in this verse, although their flesh was circumcised identifying them as descendants of Abraham, they were not of the faith of Abraham and for this reason he said they were not circumcised in heart and ears.
So again what we have here is the lost accusing a Christian of blasphemy and yes this is very dangerous for the unsaved to do because, if for no other reason, if they persist in doing so until they die they will go to hell.
Subdivision C read, “Attacking the Holy Spirit is carnal. Romans 8:5-8”
This portion of scripture is as follows:
“For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”
Here again, Paul is referring to the unsaved as those who are “according to the flesh” or in other words carnal and he said the mind of the lost is hostile toward God.
So again it is the lost and not the saved about whom the reference is speaking.
Subdivision D read, “Attacking the Holy Spirit is indicting. 1 Corinthians 2:14”
This verse reads, “But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.”
Here again the verse referred to is speaking of the unsaved who do not understand much of the things of God because to gain a thorough understanding of godly things one must have the Holy Spirit, who lives in every believer, to make them understandable.
I don’t remember the pastor’s comments on this subdivision. One meaning of the word “indicting” of course means “to be accused of doing wrong.” Attacking the Holy Spirit is most assuredly a wrong thing to do.
Again, it is of course wrong to accuse godly people of being unsaved just because they point out sin in the lives of other believers. We are on the contrary admonished by scripture to attempt to restore believers who have sinned in the spirit of meekness.
Thus every reference used in the fourth part of the sermon which speaks of attacking the Holy Spirit is referring to the unsaved who are doing the attacking, not believers.
Of course even when an offender is properly approached by a Christian brother over his sin, if he insists that he has done no wrong, then he may defensively accuse the godly person of being unsaved and further accuse them of attacking them and therefore also attacking the Holy Spirit living in them.
Now I believe I should address two other unfortunate issues and I will be through.
The issues I refer to are the refusal of the church staff to release the information that has been requested which the law requires to be released upon request by the members of the church and, in conjunction with that matter, the ordination of brother David Coombs.
Please read the following two excerpts from The New American Standard Bible first.
1 Peter 2:13-17, “Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men. Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.”
Romans 13:1-6, “Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.”
The above verses are more than enough scriptural proof that the pastor and staff have “opposed the ordinance of God” by refusing to subject themselves “to the governing authorities.” This has happened on more than one occasion.
They have “opposed the ordinance of God” by trespassing, by harboring a pedophile, and by refusing to release information to the membership which is required by law, and also the commingling of funds.
Now let me pause here and one more time declare that I love each of you, my brothers in the Lord, and I want each of you to have the very best God has for you. However, I know and I know that each of you know down deep in your heart that you can’t have God’s best if you persist in being disobedient to Him. Again my purpose here is not to destroy anyone, but to hopefully be among those whom God may possibly use to help you come to a place of restoration to your First Love.
Now, here comes some “tough love.” I don’t get any joy out of saying what I am about to say now.
David was, as we all know, called a man after God’s own heart and he was mightily used of God. Through him God slew the giant Goliath. Through him God gave the world a great host of the Psalms. He was one of the greatest kings of Israel who ever lived. In his great exuberance for God he danced before the ark of God much to his wife’s embarrassment.
All of this and much more could be said of the good things David did and yet David became an adulterer and a murderer. For these sins, as we all know, He paid dearly.
I am not in any way implying here that anyone currently on staff has committed sins as heinous as those which David committed. However, if sin in the camp hinders the lost from being saved and causes other believers to stumble, then how grievous does that make that sin?
Though David was incredibly used of God, it did not stop him from committing some of the most abominable sins that man can commit.
Many of you have been on the BBC staff for many years and we as a church have looked up to you and admired and prayed for you down through those years. However, something very grievous has begun to occur among the members of the staff of our church. I continue to pray for you --- however --- I am now praying that God will make your life absolutely miserable every moment of every day if you are living in sin until you sincerely repent and turn away from that sin and go on for God.
I don’t get any pleasure out of seeing someone’s life be miserable, but it is better for you to be extremely unhappy until you are once again living a life that makes God happy with you. Had David not repented for his sins according to the prophet Nathan, God would have taken him to an early grave, but when David repented Nathan told him that God had forgiven him and would not take his life.
Brother Coombs, from all I’ve heard about you, it sounds like to me that the Lord has most likely blessed and used you much over the many years that you have been saved. However, when you were “ordained,” according to all the information I have, as you knelt and they laid hands on you, you were living in defiance of the law of the state of Tennessee which requires you to release certain information to the membership upon request.
In spite of all the good you may have done over the years, as King David had done great good for God, in spite of the fact that Sonny Tucker has been mentoring you for many years, and in spite of the fact that you memorize three verses each week, which, by the way, I don’t do, I find it extremely hard to believe that God approved of your being ordained to the gospel ministry while you were at the time of your ordination “opposing the ordinance of God” by refusing to “Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution.” ---- 1 Peter 2:13-17 and Romans 13:1-6
I am disappointed in every minister who participated in the ordination service. I regret to have to say this, but I am afraid that God had nothing to do with your being ordained. If I had to choose, I would much rather be ordained by God and not men, than to be ordained by men and not God!
Again, I love each of you my brothers, and I deeply appreciate all you have done to this point in your lives for the Lord, and I have richly benefited from many of your ministries over the years I have been at Bellevue, but as hard as I might try to find justification for what was done, I cannot!
As to the release of the information requested, I’m sure that some of the members don’t want their addresses and phone numbers publicized, however, I’m sure many of them don’t like to wear a seat belt and many would rather not pay income taxes, but it is the law and I’m sure most of them wear their seat belts and most of them pay their income taxes. Their world will not end if their address and phone numbers are given to the membership. Many churches even have a church directory published so everyone will have that kind of information.
As to the financial reports, I’m sure there is some sensitive information there that might make some people a little unhappy, but that is beside the point! It is the law!
Pastor, I am praying for you most fervently! You have publicly admitted to being guilty of breaking the law in the matter of trespassing and in the matter of harboring a pedophile and you have refused to release the information that our church is obligated by law to release.
You have been accused of breaking the tax laws by commingling funds and in your previous pastorate you reportedly charged an extra one thousand dollars per person on Holy Land tours you led the members of your church on.
Your have been a part of giving $25,000 dollars of God’s money to a church that is pastored by a woman and is pro-homosexual and pro-abortion. You have led other members of the staff to follow you in some of these regrettable wrongs.
You are reportedly accepting a salary which is about twice what the former pastor of our church was making after being our pastor for about thirty years.
You have unfortunately given the world the impression that although you preach the truth of God’s Word from the pulpit, you neglect to practice what you preach in your daily walk as though you are somehow exempt from doing so.
You have given us all the impression that you are of the mindset that the end justifies the means and that it is therefore right to do wrong to get the opportunity to do what you perceive to be right.
You have told us from the pulpit that you are going to teach us how to pray and how to worship, giving the impression that you don’t believe our former pastor was successful at doing these things.
You have given the further impression that you believe you have been chosen by God to rescue our church from what you apparently believe to be the mess it has been in for over a hundred years.
Pastor I don’t know how you can continue to stand behind the sacred desk and preach the Word of God which you repeatedly refuse to apply to your own life.
I know these are hard words, but you know they are true and may God have mercy on you, if you continue on this wreckless path you are following which is breaking the hearts of the people of God and dooming souls to hell.
Although it probably appears that I am bitter, I assure you that I am not. I am broken hearted and I have literally wept repeatedly in preparing this unfortunate communication.
I know that God loves you and I would be a fool to despise anyone whom God loves. I love you in Jesus’ name and will continue to pray that you will repent of your arrogance and pride and return to your First Love for the Lord’s sake, for your sake and your family’s sake, and for the sake of God’s people and lost souls everywhere.
Pastor, if you wonder who this is, I am the Holy Spirit speaking through the heart and mind of one of God’s lowly servants.
Enough said on these matters. I will make one more regrettable point and conclude my comments with prayer.
The inequities in our church staff which have been highly publicized and extensively debated both in the Spirit of the Lord and unfortunately in the spirit of the devil, give rise to a most ominous question.
That question is, “If what has come to the world’s attention publicly is only the tip of the iceberg, then how much more wrong has transpired behind closed doors in secret and to what degree and extent will these unknowns affect both the membership of our church and the salvation of lost souls both at Bellevue and around the world?”
Now as you read this prayer, again I am asking that you not merely read it, but also make it your prayer to God from your heart for both the staff of our church and for every member and for the ministries that our church both supports and influences around the world.
Heavenly Father, again we are too limited in wisdom and too weak in our flesh to presume that we can in our own strength even begin to cope with these most grave spiritual issues that are of such formidable magnitude and of such eternal import.
Therefore, we bow in your most holy presence and ask you to take control of our lives as never before. We long to be used of You, Lord, to bring glory to Your name and joy to Your heart. We want to be used to help others come to know You as we do.
We want our church to be an oasis to which we can escape from this dry and thirsty world on a regular basis and there be refreshed as our thirst for You is satisfied by the living water about which Jesus told that poor thirsty woman of Samaria when she came to draw water from Jacob’s well.
We want to have our hungry hearts filled as we feast on the bread of heaven, the living Word of God. We want to praise you with gifts and offerings and songs and prayers and worship and sweet fellowship with one another as we have in glorious days gone by.
We pray that You will convict every heart both in the congregation and on the staff of our church that is in dire need of being broken and molded and made into what your divine purpose is for each one. We want you to give us a spirit of love and forgiveness for those who are guilty of sin and are willing to admit it and forsake it.
If we happen to be among those in need of repentance, we ask that you convict us along with others and help us to name our sin and be honest enough and bold enough to do as David did and say, “I have sinned against the Lord!” Then help us to do as the woman caught in adultery and accept Your forgiveness as she did when you said, “Neither do I condemn you.” And then help us to do as you told her to do, “Go and sin no more!”
Restore, Oh God! your church, your people to their First Love that Bellevue Baptist Church may once again be the heavenly beacon of hope it has been for over one hundred years to a lost and dying world!
In the mighty and strong name of Jesus we earnestly, fervently pray! Amen.
wPsalm 43:3 said...
Although Sunday School attendance, worship attendance, giving, baptisms, and decisions during the service are down, I would guess that many are waiting to see if SG will resign before they move to another church.
Sheepless says,
I don't hold any hope that SG will resign, he has it too good at BBC and it's obvious his main thing is SG. I think the only way he will leave is if our leadership "elders,that we don't have" become so fearful that they can't stop the bleeding and leaving, or if GOD himself "PLUCKS" SG from our pulpit.
I apologize for sounding harsh but I'm just plain tired and weary of our Bellevue Baptist Church family of God being trampled.
Men of Leadership...get off the front rows, get a birds eye view from the balcony or back rows so you can see the empty seats in our sanctuary! Get into reality, our church is sinking.
A former pastor
There is no doubt the Lord is working thru you to speak to all of us at Bellevue Baptist Church and all others that read and post on this site.
Thank you for being obedient to God's commands and following God's will as the Holy Spirit leads you to speak to all of us.
jmo said...
"You can see from Tim Coggins email that David has reached out to help bring our members together."
That still remains to be seen. You very well know that what is seen from the pulpit is not the truth, why do you think that the approach by David Coombs is the truth. Only time will tell us if he is sincere about resolving this conflict rooted in the misapplication of scriptures and blatant sin. We will know by the correct application of the Word.
LWOOD & TRUTHSEEKER,
May God lead and guide all of us in the days ahead for wisdom as we seek His will for our church home; whether to go or to stay.
I pray God will give us a miracle at Bellevue Baptist Church and restore BBC to a church that will bring honor & glory to HIM.
mom4 wrote: "You very well know that what is seen from the pulpit is not the truth"
mom4, you may need to clarify your statement above for me. Are you speaking of the sermons? Or the messenger (pastor) himself? Is this all the time? Or just occasionally? I am not trying to challenge your feelings but since I don't seem to get it I am only seeking more information.
I am usually a cynical person by nature and tend to question a lot of what comes before me. I listened intently this past Sunday morning to try and read into the message something other than what was read and/or said. I enjoyed the message and felt that it was God's message. I couldn't find fault, though I listened in order to find fault. There were worship and hearing a challenging Word from God in the seat that I resided. I honestly did not hear any thing I would not consider the truth to be presented.
You should know that in David's first meeting with the staff he reminded them that God knows everything and nothing can be hidden from God. If they had some hidden sin that this (that day) was the time to bring it into the open. I believe in the coming months you will see more openness and outreaching coming from our staff.
sheeplessatbbc said...
wPsalm 43:3 said...
Although Sunday School attendance, worship attendance, giving, baptisms, and decisions during the service are down, I would guess that many are waiting to see if SG will resign before they move to another church.
Sheepless says,
I don't hold any hope that SG will resign, he has it too good at BBC and it's obvious his main thing is SG. I think the only way he will leave is if our leadership "elders,that we don't have" become so fearful that they can't stop the bleeding and leaving, or if GOD himself "PLUCKS" SG from our pulpit.
I apologize for sounding harsh but I'm just plain tired and weary of our Bellevue Baptist Church family of God being trampled.
Men of Leadership...get off the front rows, get a birds eye view from the balcony or back rows so you can see the empty seats in our sanctuary! Get into reality, our church is sinking.
If numbers are not allowed to be vaildation of a ministry's success, by what twisted reasoning is a perceived lack of numbers thought to be an invalidation?
--Mike
If I may ask, "A former pastor," why are you a former pastor, rather than a current pastor?
--Mike
Sign if you think they should go
We can begin to heal if they all go. Don't let a small group of men drive the entire church into a ditch. They need to step aside so trust can be restored.
Sign if you think they should go
Mike,
The leadership is being hoisted on their own petard. They used numbers as proof of God's blessing, now the numbers are in freefall.
Numbers, not the standards of Scripture, seem to dictate their thinking. Talk about spiritual immaturity!
"You should know that in David's first meeting with the staff he reminded them that God knows everything and nothing can be hidden from God."
Orthodoxy and Orthopraxy do not match here.
Former pastor's comment explained scripture very well from one sermon. Lots to learn from his comment.
There are 6 former pastors at my church. They are all retired.
A Former Pastor-
I was anxiously looking forward to part two of your sermon, and it was worth the wait. If you don't want to be a "former pastor" anymore, would you consider sending an application to my church, GBC? :-)
ydoesit matter wrote: "We can begin to heal if they all go. Don't let a small group of men drive the entire church into a ditch. They need to step aside so trust can be restored."
And we are doing just that. Preventing a small group from driving our entire church into a ditch.
JMO...I bet either your name is on my list or you are a social climber who brown noses those on my list.
Please keep posting. You support my cause each day you post.
Mike Bratton said...
sheeplessatbbc said...
wPsalm 43:3 said...
Although Sunday School attendance, worship attendance, giving, baptisms, and decisions during the service are down, I would guess that many are waiting to see if SG will resign before they move to another church.
Sheepless says,
I don't hold any hope that SG will resign, he has it too good at BBC and it's obvious his main thing is SG. I think the only way he will leave is if our leadership "elders,that we don't have" become so fearful that they can't stop the bleeding and leaving, or if GOD himself "PLUCKS" SG from our pulpit.
I apologize for sounding harsh but I'm just plain tired and weary of our Bellevue Baptist Church family of God being trampled.
Men of Leadership...get off the front rows, get a birds eye view from the balcony or back rows so you can see the empty seats in our sanctuary! Get into reality, our church is sinking.
If numbers are not allowed to be vaildation of a ministry's success, by what twisted reasoning is a perceived lack of numbers thought to be an invalidation?
--Mike
9:26 AM, March 05, 2007
Sheepless says,
Mike Bratton,
THIS IS NOT TWISTED REASONING..IT IS A FACTUAL OBSERVATION...SEATS ARE EMPTY..MANY, MANY SEATS ARE EMPTY..OPEN YOUR EYES, IF YOU WANT TO SEE THE TRUTH.
THESE EMPTY SEATS, ARE SEATS ONCE OCCUPIED BY LONGTIME FAITHFUL AND LOVING MEMBERS OF BELLEVUE BAPTIST CHURCH.
THE FLOCK HAS SCATTERED..DOES THIS NOT HURT "YOU" TO SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING TO OUR CHURCH??!!
Amy,
I visited GBC Sun morning & Sun night. What a blessing to hear Bob Sorrells voice and to hear and see Jim Whitmire lead the choir and congregation in such beautiful praise to our Lord. Mike Spradlin truly does have a love for the Lord and his sermon delivery with no hidden/self serving agenda is so refreshing.
I was very impressed with your pastors search committee's reports, so now you have a short list of only 10 candidates, maybe you will have a new pastor soon.
I thought the roof would lift off GBC when "IN THE MIDNIGHT CRY" was sang..I've never heard it done better and that is my favorite song! What a special blessing.
Did you move from BBC or have you been at GBC a long time?
Does anyone have any problems with the squiggly letters? Sometimes I have to enter them 3 times, but usually at least 2. I'm beginning to be concerned about my eyes.
Does anyone else have this problem?
ydoesit matter said...
Mike,
The leadership is being hoisted on their own petard. They used numbers as proof of God's blessing, now the numbers are in freefall.
Do you have an Excel spreadsheet that demonstrates this?
Seriously. I'm not trying to be snarky, but worship service attendance is cyclical--at least from my experience--and always has been. If there's a "freefall," surely a chart or spreadsheet would demonstrate it.
And my observation still stands: If talk of good "numbers" is disallowed, talk of bad "numbers" must be as well, for the sake of consistency.
Numbers, not the standards of Scripture, seem to dictate their thinking. Talk about spiritual immaturity!
9:40 AM, March 05, 2007
I'd love to, especially after reading something like this:
ydoesit matter said...
JMO...I bet either your name is on my list or you are a social climber who brown noses those on my list.
On reflection, was that a particularly mature statement to make?
--Mike
JMO and SOTLs-
I am catching up on the blog, so this may be a little off topic, but I wanted to add my two cents.
JMO, it was very wrong for David Coombs to have access to a confidential file, and the fact that it was on his desk is a red flag for a potential cover up. Actually, confidential files shouldn't even be in plain view if someone's name is visible. It makes you wonder if the file had been tampered with in any way.
It really upsets me when people have such a cavalier attitude about confidential files. I had an abusive past as well. If I was told I had to go speak to a counselor before volunteering for VBS, I just wouldn't have worked at VBS. It is very hard, and very painful, for me to recall those events of my past. I know it took a lot of courage and stregnth for SOTL to follow through with a counselor, and the way her file was handled is a slap in the face.
sheeplessatbbc said...
Mike Bratton,
THIS IS NOT TWISTED REASONING..IT IS A FACTUAL OBSERVATION...SEATS ARE EMPTY..MANY, MANY SEATS ARE EMPTY..OPEN YOUR EYES, IF YOU WANT TO SEE THE TRUTH.
Ah. Interesting.
Those who disagree with you and yours can't have a sincere reason for doing so--they must be uninterested in "Seeing The Truth"?
As the commercial says, "Not exactly."
Again, if "numbers" cannot be used to validate a ministry (as is so often declared in theses parts), "numbers" cannot be used to discredit one, either.
THESE EMPTY SEATS, ARE SEATS ONCE OCCUPIED BY LONGTIME FAITHFUL AND LOVING MEMBERS OF BELLEVUE BAPTIST CHURCH.
I'm told that all-caps is the Internet equivalent of screaming, so I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't go the all-caps route in the future. But I digress...
How "faithful" and "loving" are people in their relationship to any organization if their response to turbulence in that organization is to cut and run?
As I've said before, if God leads a person or a family to go to a different congregation, that's marvelous. However, it should be a matter of going where the Lord leads, not quitting out of disgruntlement.
THE FLOCK HAS SCATTERED..DOES THIS NOT HURT "YOU" TO SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING TO OUR CHURCH??!!
Indeed, it does. And one of the things that wounds me the most is to see how some in the flock have chosen to respond to a challenging time.
--Mike
Hello All,
My 3 cents of the morning are these:
1. I went to Faith Baptist this Sunday - warm people, warm welcome and nice to see some faces of old friends.
2. Don't miss the meeting scheduled for March 25th - the meeting referenced in Davids Coombs' letter. Lots will be said about the budget - probably more than we've ever known about the budget. This is from a reliable source.
3. Isn't it PRETTY outside today?
Thanks to padroc for the nice things you said about me a few days ago. I've had the stomach bug over the weekend so I'm just now catching up on the blog. Scary article about labrynths. Thanks to whoever posted that.
Have a great day! Karen
Those concerned with file privacy should focus less on David Coombs and more on Mark Dougharty. David had access for mere weeks. Mark has been there for years. Current Bellevue staff members have given me reason to believe Mark maintained file summaries and that he was known to use the information improperly. Maybe Chuck Hannaford would know the details. If he doesn't, he might know who would.
Does anyone else believe BBC is ripe for an embarrassing lawsuit? I hope that never happens.
Sleepless,
I have always been at GBC. I thought IN THE MIDNIGHT CRYwas awesome too. I was the one yelling ENCORE after Richard sang it.
We have been so blessed with Bob Sorrell and Mike Spradlin. We have gotten very attached to Dr. Spradlin, he's going to be a hard act to follow. The thing I have appreciated most is their positive attitude. Also, we have gone back to being Baptist! I really didn't realize how far off course we had become. We didn't have alter calls after the service, no Wednesday or Sunday night church, etc... Our changes were made over a longer time so it wasn't as noticeable.
I really pray for Bellevue. My heart was broken last year when our church split. GBC may even be better for it in the long run, but it will never be the same and that makes me sad. I didn't loose any friends, however there is always "this big thing you don't talk about" hanging in the air when you see your friends that left.
I was also surprized last night at the number of people that were not members who attended last night. BBC folks are always welcome to worship with us.
mike said...
"Indeed, it does. And one of the things that wounds me the most is to see how some in the flock have chosen to respond to a challenging time."
How have you responded other than your continual beating of the sheep? While pretending to have the appearance of being objective, you have continually berrated your brethren, assaulted our intelligence and repeatedly made antagonistic remarks in your posts which do nothing but create strife and division. How is that a positive response to the challenge?
Karen, you have e-mail from me :). BTW, I was at Faith as well.
Sheepless
Yes, I have had to enter those "squiggly" letters atleast twice on most occasions. And the number of letters seems to be increasing. Soon, we'll have to transcribe "War and Peace" to post a comment. :)
Don't bother with Mike Bratton. He cares more about winning an argument and picking apart everyone's comments than what is happening at BBC.
Each empty seat is a sheep who has been abused by the shepherd who was supposed to protect and nourish them.
There's a huge difference between those faithful members lost and the wide-eyed unsuspecting new folks that may come in knowing little to nothing about what this "pastor" is about. Putting on a show and crafting entertainment to suck in a crowd is easy up to maintaining discerning members who have spent two or three decades under a godly man like Dr. Rogers. Who can compare the quality of these numbers?
Bellevue might "empty out" and then "fill up" again but the face of the church and it's influence on the culture (instead of the other way around) will be forever changed.
amy, the following is my speculation and not based on any conversations with anyone on staff. But being in business I have some aspects of knowing protocol especially when a potential for litigation may follow.
The way I understand the situation is that SOTL was concerned about having her confidential files at Bellevue. She requested to the church that she obtain her files. Her husband went to retrieve said files and was given a release for SOTL to sign. She signed the release and her husband was directed to David Coombs' office to pick-up said files. SOTL will correct me if I'm wrong on this.
I assume that a request to pick up files would have been an alert to the staff of a possible legal problem. They probably checked with David, who checked with an attorney for how to handle. He probably had the file in order to get the proper signature in order to release. The file was never just laying around. It is not a known fact if David read the file. I would assume that the church made a copy for their records should SOTL seek some legal recourse.
If one of my employees asked for their personnel file I would assume that a potential problem would be there. We would provide a copy but only after requested in writing. Of course most of the time you just get a subpoena from their lawyer. Normally the request goes to our office manager for handling the request. Hmmm...wouldn't the senior administrative man be an appropriate one to handle. In a doctor's office it would be the office manager as well. Doctor's have very sensitive information as well.
Mom4
In response to your statement about David Coombs, I believe Tim said he was cautiously optimistic, and only because open discussion has taken place.
Still no meeting. Still no reliquishing of records. Still no one stepping down because of their part in this past year's train wreck.
Yes, they have talked. They can't say any longer that it's "3 or 4" troublemakers when so many have left and 400 people have signed petition. That is PROGRESS.
BUT I don't think anyone claims to know the motivation of these men, whether it is to protect their own reputations and that of Steve Gaines by ignoring the past and covering up, or if they may want todo the right thing. I presume it is the first until we have the information we requested.
And to those who may not know, YES there are allegations of sloppy handling of God's money that we have been told we need to PROVE but cannot because they are holding on to the minutes with both fists!
THOSE WHO HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE, HIDE NOTHING.
Former pastor's account is brilliant. Well done thy good and faithful servant! AMEN....again I say AMEN! Maybe Integrity Does Count ought to make him the leader or at least transition leader of your group! Such wisdom I have not seen even in Israel!
jmo states:
The way I understand the situation is that SOTL was concerned about having her confidential files at Bellevue. She requested to the church that she obtain her files. Her husband went to retrieve said files and was given a release for SOTL to sign. She signed the release and her husband was directed to David Coombs' office to pick-up said files. SOTL will correct me if I'm wrong on this
SOTL says:
SIGH. Ok, I did NOT have legal concerns at the time that I requested my file. Actually, I started with Deborah Housel's office to try and determine if Paul Williams had done my " counseling" ( i use that term loosely) I spoke with Karen in her office and she advised me that they did not have my file, because it would be in the couseling office. Hmmm, I suppose that THEY understood that counseling files belong in the counseling office.
AGAIN, let me state in no uncertain terms that ALL I WANTED WAS TO KNOW WHO HAD DONE MY COUNSELING. I Just needed to know for my own sanity. I had never had any prior dealing with David Coombs at that particular time.
I was told by Karen that she would have someone locate my file in counseling and call me back.
The next thing I knew, David Coombs was calling me.
David Coombs was NOT associated with the counseling office. You state that no one else looked at my file. How do YOU know? How do YOU know where my file was kept during the time it was " floating" around? You have NO idea who saw my file, and now, neither do I.
After David Coombs called me and told me that he had my file, THAT is when I decided that I wanted my file in MY possession because it
became obvious to me that my file was not private any longer, by the very fact that David Coombs was holding it in his hands.
This was very upsetting to me.
What started out as a simple phone call to try to determine who had done my counseling was now a major problem.
DO NOT say that no one else saw it. YOu do not know. You were not there. You can say that you don't know who saw it, or IF anyone saw it, but to state unequivacally that no one saw it is a lie, because you don't know.
From the "is it just me" file I keep in my head:
I get really tired of people who hold tightly to this type of logic:
"Dr. Rogers passed the mantle to Steve Gaines so Gaines had Dr. Rogers total support"
or
"Dr. Rogers is quoted in 'Morning Manna', so Dr. Rogers endorses Steve Gaines 100%"
or
"Dr. Rogers said the congregation 'I knew it all along' when they picked Steve Gaines"
or
"Dr. Rogers is quoted in 'The Purpose Driven Life' so he endorses Rick Warren"
Put your brain around this: What if Dr. Rogers regrets these "endorsements" when he got locked out of his office, or when Steve Gaines visited him in the hospital, or just regretted these things in his own heart? Can you put your thinking around the possibility that Dr. Rogers was sorry that he wholeheartedly supported Steve Gaines and then regretted it after Steve Gaines began his tenure here? Why can't that be true?
God regreteed making Saul king; I'm sure Dr. Rogers had some regrets in his life.
Just a thought....
karen
Jmo,
Furthermore, you state that you don't know if David Coombs read my file. You see, that's the problem with having something in your hands that doesn't belong to you.He cannot now say with any credibility that he did not read my file, because he should not have had access to it in the first place.
And it doesn't even matter if anyone BUT David Coombs read my file. That was one too many. I was betrayed by BBC.
Had I been told upfront that the files were not necessarily secure, I would have NEVER EVER gone for the " counseling". I would have said, " uh, well, forget it, find someone else to work VBS"
As it was, I was lied to. I was mislead. I was betrayed.
But this isnt' just about me. This is for anyone else who has been or is considering counseling at BBC. You should be VERY leary.
I would want to know who has the keys to the filing cabinets. Not that they will tell you the truth, they'll just tell you what they think you want to hear.
BEWARE!!!
"What started out as a simple phone call to try to determine who had done my counseling was now a major problem."
sotl, it does not take a rocket scientists to connect the dots on this one. They had a scandal to contain and manage.
Proper procedure is that the minister in charge of counseling (or whatever he/she is called) should have been the one to contact you. That file should NEVER have left the counseling office. PERIOD.
JMO sure 'speculates' well on what happened with your file to not have talked with anyone. Sounds like a cya action to me. JMO, you are only ASSUMING Coombs talked with attorneys about the file? hmmm. Better go back to Coombs for new instructions.
By the way, I don't know what your business is but procedures for private counseling records are very serious. It is not really a 'protocol' but a procedure within a policy.
Mike Bratton said...
Again, if "numbers" cannot be used to validate a ministry (as is so often declared in theses parts), "numbers" cannot be used to discredit one, either.
Sheepless says,
I've never mentioned numbers. The numbers you say some try to use to validate or invalidate are no accurate measurement. There are many "numbers" still on the membership roll because they are still hoping for restoration of BBC and have not moved their
membership elsewhere. The true measurement is in the seats, empty ones in this case. All a person has to do is look in the sanctuary and balcony if they want to see the truth.
Sheepless says,
THESE EMPTY SEATS, ARE SEATS ONCE OCCUPIED BY LONGTIME FAITHFUL AND LOVING MEMBERS OF BELLEVUE BAPTIST CHURCH.
Mike says,
I'm told that all-caps is the Internet equivalent of screaming, so I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't go the all-caps route in the future. But I digress...
Sheepless says,
Mike, this was not meant to scream at you, was just for emphasis, Sorry.
Mike says,
How "faithful" and "loving" are people in their relationship to any organization if their response to turbulence in that organization is to cut and run?
As I've said before, if God leads a person or a family to go to a different congregation, that's marvelous. However, it should be a matter of going where the Lord leads, not quitting out of disgruntlement.
Sheepless says,
Mike, sorry to hear you use the word organization, we are specifically speaking of a church body, in particular, Bellevue Baptist Church family. I hope you see us a church family, not an organization.
I'm sure some people have left because they were disgruntled, there are some people who are not happy unless they can grumble. The people on this blog have not all cut and run, most of us are still at BBC and attending faithfully, praying positive changes will come and the Lord will retore our church. Most of those that have left and the ones that are considering leaving are doing so because it is too painful to continue to worship under our current pastor.
I loved SG when he first came. Then all the questions surfaced, all the mistakes happened over and over again, now I have lost all respect for him except for him being an energetic and dynamic speaker. Speakers are a dime a dozen and with the proper outline and format a good speaker could deliver the same message and as effectively as he does. What we need in the pulpit at Bellevue Baptist Church, and at any other church, is a man after God's own heart, a man above reproach, a man of integrity, a man that is honest, a man that is selfless not self-serving, and loves his sheep. We grieve because we do not have that man in our pulpit, not because we are disgruntled.
Turbulence? That is a gross understatement, we are in a raging storm.
THE FLOCK HAS SCATTERED..DOES THIS NOT HURT "YOU" TO SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING TO OUR CHURCH??!!
Indeed, it does. And one of the things that wounds me the most is to see how some in the flock have chosen to respond to a challenging time.
--Mike
11:24 AM, March 05, 2007
Piglet,
Thanks for your response. The appearances of "good will" may indeed be only appearances. The "proof is in the puddin'" so to speak. If there is nothing to hide, full accountability and transparency should be forthcoming - and soon!
SOTL,
Just wanted you to know I'm here for you, my sister! I cannot comment on what happened to you because I was not there, but I know you well enough to know you are a truthful, honest person. Don't let anyone on this blog keep you from pure contentment. You Rock!
karen
Karen,
You asked us to pray for your friend that was missing. Any good news on her?
Mike Bratton said...
Indeed, it does. And one of the things that wounds me the most is to see how some in the flock have chosen to respond to a challenging time.
Some in the flock were "cut off at the knees" prior to the current response. They tried everything to get through to the leadership at BBC and were rebuffed. Are you more concerned that people "in the world" know about BBC's problems or about the way the members (and former members) of BBC were treated by their new leader? Some have been injured beyond reconcilliation and I'm not sure you see that. They didn't contact the media, start a website, begin a blog or form a non-profit organization as a first line of defense; these were done as a last resort.
karen
sheeplessatbbc said...
Karen,
You asked us to pray for your friend that was missing. Any good news on her?
12:58 PM, March 05, 2007
Unfortunately, she is still missing. Keep praying!
Thanks! Karen
Mike Bratton said
How "faithful" and "loving" are people in their relationship to any organization if their response to turbulence in that organization is to cut and run?
As I've said before, if God leads a person or a family to go to a different congregation, that's marvelous. However, it should be a matter of going where the Lord leads, not quitting out of disgruntlement.
Piglet says:
Some have left because they don't want to stay and "make waves".
Some have gone before us, knew what was happening before we did and have grown weary of being ignored and demonized.
Those of us who have stayed believe "waves" are needed. Men who call themselves followers of God need to be held accountable and not given a blank check.
We are still here for BFC but will not sit under a pastor that I do NOT want my sons to emulate.
We go home and watch Love Worth Finding for now but may have to attend elsewhere if things don't change soon, and maybe eventually move our membership if God leads us to do so. What a sad day that would be for us and especially for our precious sons who have very dear friends here and teachers they look up to. That should not have to happen.
We won't be "disgruntled" if we leave.
It will be because our spirit is vexed by the darkness that looms over Bellevue. It will be because we long for a pastor who loves us and the the Lord with all his heart, and is a godly man worthy of our trust.
It will be because we are grieved and cannot continue to watch the slow death of all that we and those before us have invested in with our time, resources, and prayers.
It will be because we were betrayed by men and women we trusted to bring us a man of God to lead us with the same integrity of our beloved Dr. Rogers.
It will be because we need spiritual food and christian fellowship that results from a oneness in Christ, not in loyalty to a MAN (regardless of his actions).
"Disgruntled" is what I am when McDonalds messes up my order.
Thisgoesmuch deeper than that. I am grieved in my spirit beyond what any words can express.
SOTL Wrote; "DO NOT say that no one else saw it. You do not know. You were not there. You can say that you don't know who saw it, or IF anyone saw it, but to state unequivocally that no one saw it is a lie, because you don't know."
And where did I make the statement that "no one else saw it". You need to post that exact quote made by me. You are misleading the group and that is wrong.
Karen, if your definition of an honest person is one that writes slanderous posts, misquotes people, and makes suppositions which are not at all supported by fact, then you need to try getting a new dictionary. I truly don't want this to come across mean spirited but you can't base your discernment of facts based on whose side of the fence you reside. Even if it is an "itty bitty" fence. ;^)
former pastor
Did you mean to say, the unsaved do not understand much (or not anything) of the things of God?
Clearly the unsaved are without knowledge of the things of God, however the saved can also be ignorant (KJV) of the things of God. I Cor. 12:1
Karen,
Thank you, my sister. I do so appreciate your sweet words.
I am constantly baffled by those that sit in their ivory pristine towers with pursed lips and folded hands and proceed with judgement on how abuse victims SHOULD feel, or SHOULD NOT feel, as if THEY have ONE clue about the dynamics of childhood sexual abuse. Yet, they are experts in it.
My only other choice when offered counseling was to just turn it down entirely, and then, I would have had to constantly answer questions from friends as to why I NEVER volunteered at VBS.
Obviously, I was going to lose either way. It would have been in my own best interest to check the "NO" box on the application. But being honest is what got me into this mess in the first place.
The bottom line of all this is still this:
B E T R A Y A L
A subject with which I am all too familiar.
Every time JMO posts one of his condescending know-it-all remarks, I, and others like me are further victimized.
I did not ask to be in this position. BBC put me here.
When David Coombs called me that day to tell me that he had my file, it further traumatized me. It's not that he was initially rude to me or anything like that. I am not making that claim. The fact of the matter is that HE HAD MY FILE AND I WAS HORRIFIED.
All I could think to do was to get it away from him. JMO is only too kind to point out that the church most likely has their own copy, even though they gave me one. Don't you know how comforting THAT is?
The only reason I talk about this now is to save someone else the grief that I am feeling. My prayer is that anyone else who is foolish enough to check the "YES" box, should think a long time about it. Your file will be an open book. My advice is to throw the application away and let them find someone else to volunteer. Don't let the insensitive men in the ivory tower put you in the position they have put me in.
Again, Karen, thank you for your support.
p. s. please email me with that phone #..i seem to have misplaced it. :)
piglet wrote: "THOSE WHO HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE, HIDE NOTHING."
In all caps so I'm assuming that you are shouting out this statement. Just for my curiosity may I ask you a few questions? How much is your house worth? What was your family's income last year? Just how much weight have you added? Your age, please?
You don't have to answer because I don't really have a curiosity. My point is there are certain things that we keep privacy because it is a private matter. All employees salaries in my business are private matters. Even publicly traded companies keep salaries unpublished except for the employees who have bonus stock options and are on the most senior level. Bellevue publishes a financial statement every year. No it is not broken down to the individual level where salaries are concerned but so what? I don't need to know how much Jamie Fish makes compared to Phil Newberry. But this is nothing new. It has been this way since I've been a member and that's a number of years.
JMO wrote:
The file was never just laying around. It is not a known fact if David read the file.
Here ya go...
How do you KNOW that the file was never " just laying around"?
Please state for us exactly how you know this.
And it's so typical of you...to attack the victim when you can no longer defend the indefensible.
How do you KNOW that the file was never " just laying around"?
See? Watch JMO closely...he/she gives details that seems unlikely anyone else outside he or his wife COULD give.
ima said:
See? Watch JMO closely...he/she gives details that seems unlikely anyone else outside he or his wife COULD give.
SOTL says:
That was not lost on me. He posts that " I" make suppositions when I state EXACTLY what happened, and yet he makes statements like that.
Amazing!
JMO
Nice try but the information we are requesting should be available to the membership according to the LAW.
Why?
So we can hold those in charge accountable. So the tendency of fallen man to be corrupted by power and money will be held in check.
Why would this law be on the books if men were not prone to corruption and , in such cases, would REFUSE to make these items available? C'mon, you're a smart guy.
In short, the law requires that we be able to peer over their shoulders and they are slapping our faces as we try to do so. WHY?
My personal information has nothing to do with this and you know that. The law does not require that I make such information available to you. The law DOES require me to do a tax return every year and I abide by the LAW.
SOTL wrote: "Every time JMO posts one of his condescending know-it-all remarks, I, and others like me are further victimized."
Pleeezzz, don't pull the victim role while you condemn and slander others. But if you feel victimized by my post...the answer is so simple. Scroll on by when you see just my opinion. It is that simple. May God bless you in your healing.
SOTL wrote:
"I am constantly baffled by those that sit in their ivory pristine towers with pursed lips and folded hands and proceed with judgement on how abuse victims SHOULD feel, or SHOULD NOT feel, as if THEY have ONE clue about the dynamics of childhood sexual abuse. Yet, they are experts in it."
Not to make light of such a serious subject, but all I can think of is this!
JMO
I'd like to add that in smaller churches, the pastor's salary is known. The fact that it is a closely guarded secret in bigger churches gives room for excessive salaries that, otherwise, would not be offered.
This is not a corporation and men called of God do not "follow the money". Would Gaines have been called here if offered Dr.Rogers' salary?
Probably not.
Sorry, but I do NOT want the best pastor MONEY can buy. Look what we got.
piglet wrote: "Nice try but the information we are requesting should be available to the membership according to the LAW."
Then take it to court. You will find that the church does not have to provide the personal information of individual salaries to the membership. This has been policy for 20 years. By the way I quoted you exactly on nothing to hide. You were quick to go private. I guess we all have something to hide or is your name listed in the phone book as piglet?
jmo writes:
Pleeezzz, don't pull the victim role while you condemn and slander others. But if you feel victimized by my post...the answer is so simple. Scroll on by when you see just my opinion. It is that simple. May God bless you in your healing.
1:37 PM, March 05, 2007
SOTL says:
You just dont' get it, do you? If you are going to defend what DC did to me, I MOST CERTAINLY AM going to defend myself.
I am NOT in this position from anything that I did or did not do. I was obedidient to the authority over me, and this is where i am. And then you come on here and CRITICIZE me? Yet you have nothing but praise for the man who would victimize me further.
Your posts ARE condescending and know it all.
By the way, we are all waiting to hear how you know that my file was never " just laying around".
And I MOST CERTAINLY have been victimized by you and by BBC.
So get over it, jmo.
Oh, and be sure to let us know about how you know that my file was never ' just laying around'
NBBCOF
LOL!
You find the funniest pictures!!!
I needed a giggle. :/
"How much is your house worth?"
See this if you ever get curious. Why should our church be any less transparent? In fact, look up Bellevue Baptist Church there. That's kind of interesting.
JMO said:
Then take it to court. You will find that the church does not have to provide the personal information of individual salaries to the membership. This has been policy for 20 years. By the way I quoted you exactly on nothing to hide. You were quick to go private. I guess we all have something to hide or is your name listed in the phone book as piglet?
Piglet says:
If the law tells me to give you my stats, you won't have to "go to court" to get them!
This piggy is squeaky clean! :0)
BTW What is YOUR real name?
piglet wrote "I'd like to add that in smaller churches, the pastor's salary is known. The fact that it is a closely guarded secret in bigger churches gives room for excessive salaries that, otherwise, would not be offered."
piglet, since I am familiar with small church budgets as well as large let me explain the difference. You may not accept this but in a larger employee settings it creates a morale problem. Whereby you have many employees on the same and/or similar level a public posting of their salaries leads to problems. You get disgruntled employees wanting to know why Joe gets $4 while Jim only gets $3.89. Managers have learned from experience that keeping individual employee salaries private are important to keeping peace. Personally I think the senior pastor's salary should be public and since he is the only one on that level there is nobody to complain. But it wasn't important to me how much Dr. Rogers made nor is it important how much Dr. Gaines makes.
Concerning JMO...NOT TO JMO
If readers will look back on the 3rd of March and see how "immature" (for lack of a better word,the better word would not be acceptable) JMO's posts were after Tim very humbly corrected some misinformation, you will probably no longer respond to her/him??? JMO reacts and attacks like a kid or the negative opinion/version of a woman. As twisted as she/he became that day,I found myself almost defending DC. I can't believe that JMO is DC's wife because she has always seemed really kind. JMO APPEARS to have so much inside information but remember Ace appeared to also. AND ol Bob Barker usually comes around when JMO disappears. One thing especially cowardly and unbecoming from JMO on the 3rd was all the cheering and declaration of the "Win". After she/he had attacked everyone as if the one bit of misinformation made all the wrongs now right from SG and DC, JMO disappeared when Lin and SOTL and others responded. Only to reappear with more accusations and arrogance after 3AM when no one was up to respond. JMO is IN MY OPINION either a misguided angry kid or the relative of SG,DC. I will not respond to this person again. The mess coming from JMO that day made me feel like I was dealing with a SG's personality...very angry and unstable.
piglet, I will make this simple for you so we will not have to cover this ground again.
If you believe that the law requires me to run down Main St. naked and I don't believe that is the law then I will not be running down Main St. Should you take me to court and the courts tell me that I am wrong in my interpretation of the law then get your cameras ready. It will be an ugly site but I'll obey the law. But as long as I honestly believe that I'm in the right then my clothes will not be shed.
By the way the Bible is very specific on suing a brother in the public court.
I am not fighting you I am stating what the facts are with regards to everyone's position.
Noticing that JMO'S supposition of the file was never " just laying around" has not been defended.
Just as we thought.
JMO said
Personally I think the senior pastor's salary should be public and since he is the only one on that level there is nobody to complain. But it wasn't important to me how much Dr. Rogers made nor is it important how much Dr. Gaines makes.
Piglet says:
The senior pastor'ssalary ismy concern.
And, no, I was not concerned with Dr.Rogers' salary. I believed him to be a man of integrity and I did not give it a thought.
Then Gaines came in demanding aprox. double the salary after Dr. Rogers TURNED down pay raises. This says much about a man's character and you know it.
Of course, we've plenty of other red flags besides this one. But I think this one fact would shock many people who do not care about other issues.
gmommy,
I personally believe that JMO is Steve Gaines himself. The most likely probability if not him would be a member of his family, perhaps Donna or one of his in-laws.
There is too much info provided or implied for it not to be someone either very close to the throne or thinks they are.
gmommylv wrote: "JMO disappeared when Lin and SOTL and others responded. Only to reappear with more accusations and arrogance after 3AM when no one was up to respond."
So if somebody has to go and fly around in a plane for a while he would be a coward for not tending to the blog 24/7. You're kidding, right. I have better things to do that keeping up with this blog. But it was mighty slow yesterday without my blogging. Once I came on your guys must have mustered the troops. I am sorry that I read your post when you asked me not to read it. But I was afraid you may be hiding something from me, right piglet.
By the way I don't know any inside information. I just have a number of friends like myself who are active. And yes we communicate about what's going on within our church. So that's my "inside sources".
JMO said
By the way the Bible is very specific on suing a brother in the public court.
Piglet says:
Read to the end of Matt. 18 where it says after all avenues for reconciliation have been exhausted and the brother has not responded, you are to treat him as a heathen.
Are you saying that BBC has us in a catch 22 because they won't obey the law but think they "have" us if it goes to court?
MY, my, those documents MUST be incriminating, folks!
They are forcing this into court by their own actions.
And what's all this "naked" talk - to distract from the real issue?
Why is this a law, JMO?
SO THOSE IN CHARGE CAN'T MISUSE THE POWER AND MONEY AT THEIR DISPOSAL. (caps for emphasis)
If they were honest and open we wouldn't NEED the law, for heaven's sake!! Tell me you are not this clueless. Surely, you are yanking my chain.
mom4,
You have outed me. But it is not exactly who you think. I am a computer programmed, automatised software which is programmed to search out comments on a blog and make condescending, immature, and etc. remarks.
Actually, I am a person who loves my church and would love to see harmony among the members. I am a person who detests misinformation and untruths being reported as facts. I am a person who has been personally attacked for standing by my friends. I am a person who has an opinion different than most who post on this blog. Nobody has to respond to my posts. Actually I would prefer nobody to respond. Then I could only spend my time correcting the lies on this board and not have to respond to the attacks.
JMO,
In my opinion, you have gone too far in your comments to SOTL. Obviously you have no 1st hand knowledge about the situation in questions and (to me) you're postings are getting more and more hostile. I'm not the voice of authority as to who can post, but give it rest - it's like teaching a pig to sing. It never works and it annoys the pig. (no offense, piglet!)
karen
And for the record, JMO has been very nice to me in the past and I don't want to disturb that good rapport we have going (with the exception of suggesting I get a new dictionary today!)
JMO, did you forward my email to Steve Gaines? Remember, you said you'd try to get it to David Coombs - I actually wanted to make sure Steve Gaines saw it.
Thanks! Karen
JMO,
What lies? Specifics please.
On March 5, at 11:53 A.M. JMO posts:
"The file was never just laying around. "
At 1:10 PM on March 5, JMO posted this:
Karen, if your definition of an honest person is one that writes slanderous posts, misquotes people, and makes suppositions which are not at all supported by fact, then you need to try getting a new dictionary
At 2:23 PM, on March 5, JMO posted this:
By the way I don't know any inside information
SOTL says:
Hmmm, so the statement jmo made at 11:53 A.M. was JUST supposition?
piglet, I am far from clueless and those who know me are now laughing as I shared your post. If you knew me you would not attempt to assume me to be clueless. Obviously you did not understand the analogy but it was as simplified as I could make it. All here felt that it was a pretty good yet funny way to put the situation. So has the church been hiding something for 20 years? I would provide you another analogy but I don't know if I can simplify the situation for your edification. And yes, that is condescending. Just in case it went over your head.
I apoligize for acting in the flesh but these attacks are just silly.
(offline until later)
JMO
Back to arrogant and condescending,I see.
I "get" your analogy but the law is VERY clear so it was entirely wasted.
(Really offline)
At 2:33 PM on March 5, JMO writes:
Then I could only spend my time correcting the lies on this board and not have to respond to the attacks.
SOTL asks:
You mean, like this quote, that you made at 11:3 53 AM on March 5?:
" The file was never just laying around"
LOLOL!!!
SOTL wrote: "Hmmm, so the statement jmo made at 11:53 A.M. was JUST supposition?"
JMO wrote at 11:53:
"amy, the following is my speculation and not based on any conversations with anyone on staff. But being in business I have some aspects of knowing protocol especially when a potential for litigation may follow."
SOTL, I guess reading comprehension is not one of your strong suites. I stated at the front end of my post that it was speculation. Unlike the things you post as fact that are speculation. Then you try and make my post sound as if I posted a factual matter whereby I stated "speculation". Unlike yourself I try to distinguish as to my opinions and facts.
Friends, when you deal with JMO, remember you are dealing with the 'worldly' thinking that has pervaded the church. It is all over his/her posts. And since I believe he/she is receiving talking points from Coombs, then I suspect this is how Coombs thinks, too.
When Jesus sent the disciples out He said this:
16"Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.
And remember that Jesus was talking about 'professing believers' when He said this:
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.
Don't ever forget: Gaines ignored scripture. And that obviously does not bother Coombs much or he would be calling for Gaines to step down as unqualified for ministry. (Especially after that twisted sermon for ordination...verses totally taken out of context)
Folks, it was NOT a mistake. He IGNORED the Word. What else does a pastor have besides the Word? What could be more important than the commands and precepts of the Word?
Friends, you cannot be lead by wolves when you are a Berean.
Ok guys, going off-line. Gotta meet piglet and help her understand that when people have differing opinions that her opinion of the law doesn't rule just because she believes the law is clear. I've been involved in too many legal situations to think that the law is clear on any subject. That is why we have courts and lawyers. Going to the wild blue yonder
As to comments recently on legalities... here is what Jesus taught:
Mark 12
14And they came and said to him, "Teacher, we know that you are true and do not care about anyone's opinion. For you are not swayed by appearances, but truly teach the way of God. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not? Should we pay them, or should we not?" 15But, knowing their.... hypocrisy,...... he said to them, "Why put me to the test? Bring me a denarius and let me look at it." 16And they brought one. And he said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?" They said to him, "Caesar's." 17Jesus said to them, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." And they marveled at him."
Mom4,
I am in the same camp of thought that you are because of the twistedness and arrogance but is the adoration and "personal relationship" with DC just part of the game?? I don't care anymore. Too sick for me to deal with.
On a different subject...I know longer believe that the majority of the elders we didn't know we had are really drinking the kool-aid. After having the tantrums and wacky behavior right in front of them("our elders") verified,I believe that some are trying to figure out how to get out of the "deal made with the devil" . How they will do that without exposing many hidden things (including the lack of a good background check)and costing the church budget and themselves major money may involve DC. He is a brute but sane and a very good business man and not weak enough to drink that kool aid. I could be wrong about that last thing if power is more important than I am able to understand. There are some VERY weak men in that group that will be drinking and choke when all is is revealed...if it ever is. Just my thinking out loud.
What's the difference between speculation and supposition?
And what part of my posts regarding the file fiasco was merely suppositon?
I have stated exactly what happened. How would you know any differently?
You just can't defend the indefensible, so you call it supposition, when, in fact, " I" am the one it happened to.
It is the height of arrogance to suggest that it is merely suppositon after i have stated EXACTLY what happened, because I WAS THERE., yet, you claim to know differently.
Just because you don't like what occured and can't defend it, doesn't mean that it didn't happen JUST EXACTLY THE WAY I SAID IT HAPPENED!!!
And i'm sick and tired of having to defend the file fiasco story. I did not put myself in that story. David Coombs created the file fiasco when he picked up my file, removed it from the counseling office and picked up the phone and called me.
And now, here you sit, with pursed lips and folded hands, trying to find fault with ME, for how David Coombs responded inappropriately.
I would put my hand on the Bible and SWEAR that what I have said is the TRUTH,whole TRUTH,nothing but the TRUTH.
And people wonder why child abuse victims don't come forward. We get picked apart, while the abuser is defended by men in the ivory tower.
This is classic, folks. Pay close attention. You are watching it up close and personal.
lindon, read I Corinthians Chapter 6 versus 1-11 and explain to the group what the Bible states about suing a brother in Christ. Your reference to Jesus is Mark 12 was about government and not the filing of lawsuits against a brother. The versus in Corinthians leave no doubt to the situation.
SOTL,
And a perfect example of why there were women victimized by PW...really BBC...that could not come forward during the so called investigation. No atmosphere for violated individuals. BBC only covered for their own unethical and unbiblical selves. The women that I talked to would not dare come forward where no advocate,no female, no one brought in for their protection...just damage control and business people provided. That's our church now.
jmo says:
So if somebody has to go and fly around in a plane for a while he would be a coward for not tending to the blog 24/7
SOTL wonders:
Doesn't Steve Tucker have a private airplane?
Didn't he sign the name, STEVE, to one of his posts last week?
"SOTL, I guess reading comprehension is not one of your strong suites. I stated at the front end of my post that it was speculation. Unlike the things you post as fact that are speculation. Then you try and make my post sound as if I posted a factual matter whereby I stated "speculation". Unlike yourself I try to distinguish as to my opinions and facts."
Tashi Delek and abundance to you, truthseekers. Try not to let BBC apologists command the thread.
I'll try not to be too wrathful, because that seems to generate more of the same; yet, JM(& G's)O has completely corraled the debate all the live-long day with what is ultimately a threadbare insinuation, watering it all day with more horse-hooey, then transforms into Deacon Fred when you take the bate.
He is also passive-agressive, like someone that pokes or pecks upon you needlessly, then becomes an inveterate crybaby when you finally show some teeth. BWAH! Let these apologist have it--they didn't come here to play nice. You don't have to moderate if you make these goons wish they'd never darkened the door.
JM{& G's)O is (like) a snake in the grass. Poor little thing; do not reply to his hissing, unless it is to remind him of just how little he's being--with love, of course. Southern Baptist still spank unruly children, yes?
(Oh, and JM(& G's)O,
I guess the English language isn't one of your strong suites(sic). Actually, I've got a suite tooth.)
Again I say, you may, with some clarity, discern (Christians don't own the signifier, Bratton--you're living proof) the purpose of JM(& G's)O's engagement here, and thus may gather the worth or lack thereof of trading remarks with him.
Wha' happened?
Sweet Cakes,
I"m so glad you are back!! I have missed you!
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