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About Me
- New BBC Open Forum
- This forum was created to provide a place where those who are seriously concerned about the issues facing Bellevue Baptist Church and the SBC can come to comment and exchange ideas. Anonymous comments are welcome, but it is respectfully requested that instead of choosing the "Anonymous" option those who want to post comments without logging in select a unique screen name. This lets everyone tell the difference between one anon and another without revealing any personal information. Under the box where you compose your comment where it says "Choose an identity," just check "Name/URL" and type in the screen name of your choice. You can leave the URL field blank. It would be helpful if you'd use the same screen name for any subsequent comments. This makes reading and following discussions easier, helps avoid confusion, and doesn't result in one person being credited for writing something s/he didn't. Comments by posters whose only purpose is to disrupt (i.e. trolls) will be subject to deletion. Your cooperation will be appreciated.
588 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 588 Newer› Newest»Junk: Chris Rice has put out some amazing stuff. I've not heard this one, but I really like the words. Isn't that the truth? We try, and try, and try.....
OC: I'm praying.
Folks, here is something for you to lean on. Many of you have been introduced to Paul Washer. This is his ministry...talking about missions, etc. just reminded me. If you need an outlet for your tithes and offerings, this would be a good way to go. This man is real. here
The Gospel According to Satan
by Steve Camp. Very thought provoking...on how easily we are decieved.
concerned: I for one am a single Mom and I do count on church to show my son how to be a true man of God."
This is one area of the biggest need in our churches right now. Not only are single moms broke but they are exhausted, need godly couples to help them with their kids AND fix cars, repair homes, etc.
"If we do not desire to know truth we have already rejected it. It is not hard to cheat a person out of truth if he does not know what he has. Truth and error are all the same to the ignorant man and so he calls everything truth."
Quoted from William Gurnall, The Christian In Complete Armor. 1665
lin: What a breath of fresh air you are. We have so many single moms because one (or two) generations of men have been raised (speaking not individually but corporately)without the tools and training needed to be leaders in their home. There is much selfishness, no sense of sacrifice, and certainly very little commitment. I want to raise my sons (with God's help...can only succeed with God's help) to be a leader in His home, to know the Word, and to be a Godly man. As parents, we need to turn the tide and stop raising self-centered boys and raise men instead.
(sorry, soapbox)
Concerned,
Excellent Soap Box. Amen.
I see a million things on here I want to discuss with y'all, but I've got a wet paintbrush (shutters to do) and supper to finish fixing. I love all the church names and I empathize with the single moms. We don't have any young children or teenagers anymore so we would have to be teaching ourselves at home during the week which we already do.
Ima, after reading that Paul Washer sermon the other day that got him uninvited (Shocking Sermon) which was posted by Watchman, I already was thinking about giving part of my tithe to his missions. Yes, you are right. We all need to go to the True Church Conference but not everyone can afford to take off work and go do stuff like that like these single moms. That's what I'm talking about--if we had our own missions church, we could pay the way of the ones who are struggling.
Sorry, I don't want to stop. I am so excited about all of these thoughts. I will have to come back later.
Love you ALL,
Dee
Revival is coming to the congregation near you! After reading this sign recently, and tossing it around in my mind today, I realize that I will probably have some apologies to make come Monday. To who you ask?
To those who tried to do their job the best they could under the circumstances.
I must confess here today that I made unkind remarks recently and for that I was wrong. I'll be more specific on Monday.
I'm praying that revival does come to the congregation near me real soon, and I trust it will, because I love that place. God has used it in my life tremendously.
Lucy
As for the 5 cents . . . I'm trying to clear them out of my mind and make things right.
concerned, Don't be sorry about the soapbox. We are to bear each others burdens.
I am praying for your sons now.
Corruption is deep in Memphis, isn't it? At least the Commercial Appeal has been running a series on that. Ever think about the fact that repentance must begin at the 'House of God'?
Could it be that revival will also come to the blog? Perhaps we should entertain that thought?
Lucy's booth will now be closed for the evening as I have a dinner to attend.
Thank you for your time.
Lucy
Let's give this 5 cents to our local church. We should be able to do that soon.
OC said
how about the 'First Baptist, No Pedophile Harboring,NoFence Jumping, No Misappropriating of Funds, No Intimidating 'Lesser' Members, Etc. Church of Believers Who Are Sick of These Things'
Need to start an offering just for the sign.
Piglet says:
LOL!! Great, OC!!
Concerned:
I'd love to do lunch! :)
lin: Thanks so much. I can tell you, Romans 8:28 are not just words; I have lived them.
My daughter just called to say the the tornado funnel formed but did't touch ground.. thanks for your prayers!
OC.
oc, \O/ Even the winds obey Him! Thanks for letting us pray with you!
Concerned said: I want to raise my sons (with God's help...can only succeed with God's help) to be a leader in His home, to know the Word, and to be a Godly man. As parents, we need to turn the tide and stop raising self-centered boys and raise men instead.
Reply: Please know that I am aware that families come in different combinations, but I would love to attend a church where all christ-honoring families would work together to build up the body of Christ.
For a year, we attended a sister church. None of the families sat together once the children reached 6th grade. I still have no idea which youth belong to which parents, but NOBODY was disciplining the youth.
One Sunday night, a pulpit-supply preacher mentioned a sexually crude T-shirt worn by one of the kids the week before, and hinted about the meaning of its message. He asked why this kid's parents had let him come to church with it on. This man was NOT asked back to preach. :o( Reminds me of Paul Washer!
My idea was actually more about training people in discipleship- where the study of God's Word begins at home, and is supported by the church. I don't need my children to be in "children's church" where they are entertained by puppets and clowns. I want them hearing God's Word, even if they don't understand it all yet.
Isn't there something in the NT about caring for orphans and widows? Put this on the NEW CHURCH agenda!
Here's an idea. They can't spell worth a flip, but it appears their hearts are in the right place.
Does everyone have plans for Easter Sunday already?
Repost:
Would anyone be interested in meeting at a park or somewhere to worship the Risen Christ on April 8?
How about a bring-your-own-Bible, bring-lunch-to-share, bring blankets/chairs kind of service where we sing hymns and read scripture and invite God to join us... Anyone interested?
3:14 PM, March 30, 2007
tn_lizzie,
Sweetie...if I didn't live 100+ miles from you, I'd be there.
I am definitely all for the "everybody in the worship service together" part. Even crying babies. I think a lot of people with babies and toddlers and very young children do not come to church because of either bad experiences with nurseries OR the child is very scared and clingy to mommy and the parents don't want o wreak havoc on the nursery workers or the child. Okay. Everybody agree? We have all of us together in the worship service.
(Ran in here while the broccoli is steaming. Gotta go.)
Oh, yes. While I am thinking about it and don't want to forget, does everyone here have enough to eat? If not, email me. I'll sell something and give you money or food. DO NOT GO HUNGRY.
Love to ALL,
Dee
tn_lizzie.....Love it! I can't tell you how long I have been on a "Youth Groups are not best for youth" kick. Why would we segregate kids with others who are just as confused and immature as they are?????
Just askin'
Awwh, NASS. Where did you find that? Yes, I wanna go there or make ours like it.
(Goodness, I never realized I had quite so many soapboxes!)
"Youth Groups are not best for youth" kick. Why would we segregate kids with others who are just as confused and immature as they are?????"
I heard one pastor call it the 'companionship of fools'.
Keep in mind that the word 'teen' is a 20th century invention. Before that around age 13, a boy was considered a young man. And was treated as such making him take on extra responsibily. Now, he is at the mall trolling around with his ipod.
I have a name for your new church. First Self Righteous Stuck In The Past Baptist Church.
Also, make sure your bylaws allow for members to read magazines and eat snacks during the worship service followed by phone conversations/text messaging during the invitation. As one of your supporters did this past Sunday.
Name for new church:
I don't know but it seems BBC
is fast becoming (and this will surely date me) the "Church of What's Happenin' Now" (Whoah!!!)
:-(
"First Self Righteous Stuck In The Past Baptist Church"
Um, you might want to change your name...
Some of us want what has been taken away from us, and we are willing to work to make it happen.
[grabbing shovel to scoop up what OG has left for us...]
that should have been "...change your user name."
:o(
Concerned said.
Why would we segregate kids with others who are just as confused and immature as they are?????
OC says, Not to mention the youth ministers, many who haven't grown up themselves. Oh, guess that includes pastors too. Oops!
NBBCOF,
That article about Fellowship Church in Florida and its satellite churches (linked to in your post at 1:25 AM today) was just disturbing. I am not one to hold to being "Baptist" over following the Bible, nor am I one to be bothered by what are genuinely matters of style and personal preference (which is a different matter than watering down the message or introducing teachings in direct conflict with scripture). As I’ve stated before, I generally don't get bothered by differing interpretations of scripture and varying doctrines held by individuals and denominations, if they are right on the primary matters of orthodoxy but differ on lesser matters -- so long as they are genuinely seeking to know, believe, and apply scripture. (I know that much godlier people than me have differed on many doctrines, so I can do nothing less than attempt to show love, respect, and appreciation for those whose interpretations are different from my own.) So in that regard, I can't even say that I would be too bothered by the belief and practice of the peculiar ecclesiology (doctrine of the church) put forth by Ed Young in the article. But what bothers me is the attitude of spiritual elitism that comes through, the pride that denigrates those who do not agree with his beliefs about the nature and proper government of the local church. And it is hard to miss the sheer pragmatism that assumes God's favor just because of numerical or financial success, and that follows the corporate world’s ideas about the nature of leadership instead of the following the humble servant concept of leadership in the Kingdom that Jesus taught and modeled.
There is a measure of truth and good sense in some of what was said in the article by Pastor Young and by the other ministers associated with that church. But as a good friend of mine says, "One of the devil's favorite tricks is to take a good thing too far." And I add that another is to mix in enough truth with error to get folks to swallow the whole package. In my flesh I am a wicked and prideful creature, and so I can recognize a lack of humility in others. Pastor Young may be a good man of Christian character in many ways, and a wonderful pastor and preacher -- I have no idea -- but from just the few quotes in the article (if he is being quoted accurately and in context), it seems that there is a lack of humility there, and a lack of the concept of leaders as servants.
Just my 2 cents -- I guess that means I still owe Lucy three pennies.
Name for a new church:
"Beautiful Sight Baptist Church"
("Bellevue" is French for "beautiful sight")
OFG, you said,
"Also, make sure your bylaws allow for members to read magazines and eat snacks during the worship service followed by phone conversations/text messaging during the invitation. As one of your supporters did this past Sunday."
You've mentioned that situation more than one time. I've got a question for you: are you pro-life? For the sake of argument I will assume you are.
As a pro-lifer, do you think it would be fair to label you a murderer because the most extreme pro-lifers believe in killing abortionists?
I'm no more responsible for the actions of one woman who happens to agree with my point-of-view about Bellevue (and we have no proof which side she was on other than your word) than you are responsible for abortion doctor murders. To assert such is sophistry.
Please avoid such fallacious logic when characterizing those with whom you disagree, particularly brothers in Christ. It's unbecoming.
Overflowing Contempt,
"Also, make sure your bylaws allow for members to read magazines and eat snacks during the worship service followed by phone conversations/text messaging during the invitation. As one of your supporters did this past Sunday."
Yes, and Bellevue should adopt bylaws allowing for acting dumb as a rock when confronted with a pedophile; as some half-dozen of yours did this past year.
Just say'n.
junk,
I love the name "Beautiful Sight Baptist Church" - once upon a time Bellevue was a sight to behold, a shining light in darkness. Many are grieving her loss.
Thanks!
You know, it's been a beautiful day on the blog. Folks have been imagining a future, remembering good old times, sharing thoughts and ideas....then the "hate" arrives. You know, there were no negative posts until "Overflowing Grace." Seems to me that speaks volumes about many things: his/her name, the fact that folks say WE are the hateful ones...isn't all adding up. What a shame.
Concerned and ALL,
Best thing to do is to just scroll on by these agitators. If we don't respond, they have nothing to address but each other. They are here ONLY to provoke the dissenters into saying things we shouldn't.
Ima
Overflowing...
None of the other love filled posters will take the Bin Wonderin survey. Will you?
Why won't the leadership of BBC hold monthly meetings in accordance with Section III of the BBC bylaws?
Do you support the leadership in their refusal to adhere to the ruling documents of the church?
Should the leaders only follow the rules when it is to their advantage?
Does it set a good example for the sheeple when the leaders ignore the governing church documents?
Does it honor God when leaders refuse to follow the bylaws of the church where they are in a leadership position?
OFG,
You are steppin' in stuff you can't easily shake off your shoe. You need to be very careful.
Why won't the leadership of BBC hold monthly meetings in accordance with Section III of the BBC bylaws?
They are following the example set by Dr. Adrian Rogers.
Do you support the leadership in their refusal to adhere to the ruling documents of the church?
They are following the example set by Dr. Adrian Rogers.
Should the leaders only follow the rules when it is to their advantage?
They are following the example set by Dr. Adrian Rogers.
Does it set a good example for the sheeple when the leaders ignore the governing church documents?
Nothing has changed..They are following the example set by Dr. Adrian Rogers.
.
Does it honor God when leaders refuse to follow the bylaws of the church where they are in a leadership position?
Nothing has changed. They are following the example set by Dr. Adrian Rogers.
Okay. I finally made it back and I see that a party pooper showed up and tried to rain on our parade. What a sore loser. The user name he uses is a pure lie. I don't even think the "grace" refers to a woman necessarily unless it's one who is very fat and bulging out of her clothes. It could not possibly mean "grace" in a biblical sense. Anyway, I don't think it's a fat woman; I think it's a skinny man whose wife doesn't feed him and his blood sugar stays real low. That will surely make a man grouchy. Well, I have more important things to talk about but I have to go back and reread the things to which I wanted to respond.
Here's smilin' atcha...
Dee
ezekiel: You are so right. Thanks for the clarification. I am of the opinion that a Godly man who is leader in his home and a Prov. 31 woman go together.
junkmail99,
"Beautiful Sight Baptist Church" sounds w-o-n-d-e-r-f-u-l. I like the idea that it comes from the French word for Bellevue. If it were named that and we didn't actually have such a beautiful building, it would be that the meaning was as the Lord would see it because of the hearts that founded it.
What does everyone else think?
Dee
Berit Kjos
"Today's "change agents" hope to popularize Christianity so effectively that whole nations will join their crusade.
Forget solid Bible teaching and "the offense of the cross." To win the masses "for Christ", the church must be re-cloaked in a more permissive and appealing image. It must be marketed to the world as "a safe place," purged of the moral standards that stirred conviction of sin and a longing to separate from the world's immorality. So they re-imagined a feel-good church stripped of "offense" - one the world could love and claim as its own."
OFG,
Yeah, nothing has changed. Except the pastor is not trusted. That's the difference. So whine on, try to excuse what's going on now by referring to the past. But remember, in the past, there was a leader with integrity, and the congregation knew it. That's not the case now. So don't try to equate the two.
So yeah, in a way, nothing has changed. But in a big way, everything has. So don't expect everyone else to drink the kool-aid you are serving. Don't ask everyone to be mindless. Gaines is not Rogers. And that is all the difference in the world.
Believe that. OC.
Let me repeat for the benefit of all to whom it applies... please refrain from saying what Dr. Rogers did or did not do. He's not here to answer for himself, so don't speculate about what he would or would not do. I don't know and neither do any of you, so please just drop it. There are plenty of things to discuss without dragging Dr. Rogers' name through the mud.
Thank you,
NBBCOF
New BBC,
We were all here and we do know exactly what happened when Dr. Rogers was here. We did not have business meetings every month. I am only stating facts. Find one thing that I posted that is not fact.
OC,
The FACT is that based on Sunday's vote, we do trust the pastor. It's time to put this behind us and move on.
OG said
If it is wrong now, was it wrong then?
Yes, it would have been just as wrong had Dr. Rogers and Co. refused to be transparent, and accountable, in their actions, words and leadership style when concerned members asked questions.
Amy,
People did ask for the same things then and they did not happen. Financials, Salaries...
Ezekiel,
You did not answer my question. I don't think we need to have monthly business meeting to be following the scripture and obviously Dr. Rogers didnt either.
Imaresistor said...
Best thing to do is to just scroll on by these agitators. If we don't respond, they have nothing to address but each other. They are here ONLY to provoke the dissenters into saying things we shouldn't.
*******
You know, Ima, I don't think they come here to just provoke us into saying fleshly things. After reading some of the things Watchman put up this morning about "Change Agents Guide to Dealing with Resisters", I think they are trying to intimidate us into giving up because they cannot silence this blog and IT is slowing down their progress in transitioning old Bellevue Baptist Church. They are deceived for thinking the way they do. The "end times" are here. If I ever in my life saw something that was unbelievably stupid, this church growth movement and those who ascribe to it would have to be it. JESUS IS COMING! HE IS COMING VERY SOON! REPENT! BE READY AND DON'T BE ASHAMED AT HIS COMING! You hecklers are never going to convince us that we need to move on because the Holy Spirit is leading us to stand. We do not bow to men. We bow to the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth and NO ONE else! HALLELUJAH!
JESUS IS LORD OF ALL CREATION!
AMEN.
OFG,
Honestly, I had no problem with the facts you stated. Apparently that's how things were run for years, and the bylaws were not always followed. However, as others pointed out, it was never perceived as a problem because of Dr. Rogers' leadership. It's like the law. If everyone were a law-abiding citizen, there'd be no need for laws. Unfortunately, not everyone is, so laws are a necessary evil.
It's when someone goes beyond the facts you posted and says (or implies) things about Dr. Rogers that aren't necessarily true that there's a problem with it.
PLEASE just honor my request and find something else to discuss, or I will delete your comments.
Shouln't you delete Ezekiel, OC and Amy's comments.
overflowinggrace said...
OC,
The FACT is that based on Sunday's vote, we do trust the pastor. It's time to put this behind us and move on.
There you go again with your fallacious logic. Somehow you believe that because the budget and committees were approved that the church demonstrated trust in the pastor. I did not oppose either church motion. I also would have voted to give the pastor the boot.
There was no vote on the pastor, so you have no FACTS. What's more, the vote on adjournment was a close call.
Please work on your rhetoric and logic and get back to us.
Rick Warren's Scary Movement
OFG
But Dr. Rogers didn't get the same inflated salary, did not shame himself and Bellevue by his own arrogant words, seek to silence people who had questions, throw tantrums, humiliate and run off one of the best choir directors in the world, give money to a liberal church, knowingly keep a pedpphile on staff.....
Don't tell me you can't see the difference here in the character and qualifications......(and yet, they will, folks)
OFG,
Thank you, but I neither requested nor need your advice. I haven't had to say this to anyone in a long time, but if you don't like it here, no one is making you stick around.
Proverbs,
Are you blind!!! Every vote was a vote on our pastor. Were you there? The reason the vote was close on the adjournment was that people are so tired of this mess that they wanted to let you guy s make every motion you can think of to end all this.
Piglet,
When Dr. Rogers was pastor, the church never spent $200,000 investigating itself because he failed to act biblically upon learning of a child predator in our midst.
You are still making assertions based on logical fallacies.
Just because people want this to end does not mean they love Steve Gaines. Also, you have no way to know why those that voted against adjournment felt the way they did.
You don't get to make up your own facts and then make the leaps of logic you make. You do this all the time.
OFG,
Dr. Rogers is not responsible for the sin of Paul Williams. He wasn't some kind of religious water-witch who could walk around and detect sin with his ecclesiastical divining rod.
You truly do not know how to argue fairly. Another ridiculous argument.
Proverbs,
Give me a break on the support for our pastor. It is obvious that a great majority support him.
Several of my friends and family voted not to adjourn because they wanted to let it play out. I wanted to let you guys go all day, but my 2 year old was sitting in my lap and he was ready to go.
If you really think that the majority of people were not standing in support of our pastor, you must not be playing with a full deck.
Proverbs,
Neither is SG.
Oh yeah, I'm the one with a partial deck...
Proverbs,
There were several votes how did you vote. Are you saying that you voted with the majority on all except the adjornment?
Of course SG isn't. But he did have an ADMISSION of sin. He knew the facts Dr. Rogers never knew. That is the crucial distinction.
He knew the sin and ignored it. He did nothing. In fact, PW got an unexpected merit raise last summer. SG coddled the predator and ignored his victim. Dr. Rogers would never have done that.
Today WAS so nice...no name calling, no berating.....lots of sharing and love....wonder what happened?
I voted for the $3 million to MABTS and against adjournment, otherwise I was with the majority.
All of you need to know one thing. Before Sunday we really didnt know how the numbers would fall, now we do and we are ready to move on.
OFG
Why people are so behing HIM and angry at US is beyond me. We did not force him to make all these rediculous mistakes. We did not force him to treat so many at this church with less respect than they deserve. I was all ready to try tosettle in and get used to him and the changes. Differences in trivial taste issues are one thing but his sin and his inability to lead by example are non-negotiable!
NBBCOF,
"Rick Warren's Scary Movement" would almost be entertaining if it weren't such a serious issue. How did you like his remark about "With all the subtlety of a mob of rampaging Herbalife dealers, the church growth movement has arrived and forced us to think about nothing but their issues and agenda for the past ten plus years."
They are so big on measuring success by book sales. What fools they are. Sold out for such a paltry sum.
Thanks for putting it up for us to see.
A majority is never the definer of right of and wrong. The Word does that for us. The focus on majority opinion is not supportable biblically, not when it comes to matters of right and wrong.
Piglet,
I know many that were against Brother Steve before he ever arrived at BBC. I believe you just indicated that in your comments.
I've got an errand to run. :(
You guys play nice!
(offline)
overflowinggrace...
This one was for you...
Okay. I finally made it back and I see that a party pooper showed up and tried to rain on our parade. What a sore loser. The user name he uses is a pure lie. I don't even think the "grace" refers to a woman necessarily unless it's one who is very fat and bulging out of her clothes. It could not possibly mean "grace" in a biblical sense. Anyway, I don't think it's a fat woman; I think it's a skinny man whose wife doesn't feed him and his blood sugar stays real low. That will surely make a man grouchy. Well, I have more important things to talk about but I have to go back and reread the things to which I wanted to respond.
Here's smilin' atcha...
Dee
Proverbs,
First you say that you do have the majority, now you say the majority doesn't matter.
Whynotask,
I don't have a problem with your request. Just dont make motions to have every vote be paper ballot or to turn the cameras off. Believe me are willing to let you vote, but we are just as ready to move on after the vote.
Proverbs 12:22,
Re your 9:25 PM post... before David Brown comes on and asks again for everyone not to use the names of PW, his victim, or the family, just thought I'd send you that reminder.
XXIII. Evangelism and Missions (SBC 1925)
"It is the duty of every Christian man and woman, and the duty of every church of Christ to seek to EXTEND THE GOSPEL TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH." This sentence was changed in 1963 to say, "to endeavor to make disciples of all nations"
This sounds Biblical (Matt 28:19 - which actually says, make disciples or Christians of all nations) however it creates "people movements" (Donald McCavran, church growth concept) rather than saving individuals for Christ. Embracing nations by "redemptive analogies" through mass evangelism including the governments. This is reconstructionism and dominionism and is what is getting the far "Christian Right" in trouble in America today. It is all emergent language and the SBC laid the foundation for this in their churches 1963.
The church needs to go back to extending the gospel to the ends of the earth rather than discipling the nations!
I never said we had the majority. I said you cannot claim to know the pastor has a true majority because we never voted on him. Big difference. I think most are squishy and will go where the wind blows. I figure you are that way as well. You don't strike me as a clear thinking person who is overly concerned with right and wrong. I bet you would turn on the pastor quickly if the majority did. Just my opinion based on your posts.
You know what, it does not matter if 100% of Bellevue is behind SG, he is still been exhibiting poor judgment for quite some time (and that is the nicest way I can say this).
Millions of people can be wrong.
Junk,
I'm sorry, but I'm not taking the name down. That is silliness. It does not contain the victim's name. However, PW's name has been plastered all over the net, the local, state and national news. Let's get real.
I actually know the victim, unlike most at BBC.
Nass, You found the i-monk!
Socwork,
Exactly!
Millions were wrong on slavery 150 years ago. Millions were wrong on civil rights 50 years ago. Millions are wrong on abortion, homosexuality today.
Majorities cannot decide right from wrong. Only the Word of the Living God can measure right and wrong.
Proverbs...for the record...
For-8000
Against-100
Make all the comments you want. I have been in the minority my whole life. Academically, Financially, Career and Socially it doesnt matter I have traveled against the tide...and I have been rewared for it.
I love our pastor and can make up my own mind. You just can't hand loosing.
proverbs12:22 said
"Dr. Rogers is not responsible for the sin of Paul Williams. He wasn't some kind of religious water-witch who could walk around and detect sin with his ecclesiastical divining rod."
Peter was responsible in Acts 5:3 for revealing the sin of Ananias and Sapphira. But that was when men did not rely on self-determination.
socwork,
Dont you want to be in a church body where you can worship and grow. Since BBC does not agree with you, shouldnt you find that church.
OFG said,
Are you blind!!! Every vote was a vote on our pastor. Were you there?
OC says, Were you there when Pontius Pilate turned his thumb down? The majority ruled then also. Doesn't make it right.
Piglet wrote: Why people are so behing HIM and angry at US is beyond me"
I think you make a good point here. Think about it. They have what they think is a majority. So what is their problem? Why come here at all? Shouldn't they just bask in their victory? Gaines is their pastor and they support him. All is well...right?
Makes you wonder why they keep coming here. No one here has any power. Why do they even bother with it? Hmmmmm......
OC,
Give me a break. So we should just listen to you.
There has some discussion concerning the upcoming business meeting to elect delegates to represent the church at the SBC. The discussion incorrectly assumed that this would be a regular business meeting and that the first order of consideration would be the motion that had been presented to the floor. The meeting, which I believe is in June, will not be a normal business meeting. Instead it will be a suspended meeting for the special order of appointing delegates to the SBC. The next regular business meeting will be held in March of 2008.
Lin,
Quit disrupting BBC and we can all move on.
whynotask,
The guy we had Sunday was fair...I thought. You can't expect BBC to give away $3,000,000 to Mid America in 5 minutes. We have already given them land. By the way, I did not agree with that.
OFG said, Give me a break. So we should just listen to you.
OC says,
a). I'd love to give you a break. :)
And b) Stupid answer.
OC,
How else should we decide these issues.
OFG,
Decide? There is actually a decision to be made? Shplain that to me, Lucy.
You were mocking the majority. How else should we decide.
Uh, decide with the Holy Spirit? What a novel idea. Think about that.
Believe that, OC.
OK,here we go with the shameful Winner and Looser!!!
That is NOT what this is about. Please everyone,ignore this plant ,the name changes but the arrogance is always the same!
Hey...what about that Easter service???? A bring your lawn chair service???
Random....Remember (showing my age here)the "singings"? I thought they were great fun as a kid...my life was boring.
Who is going where?? I don't want to go to a big church. Anyone visit the Covenant church mentioned the other day????Any others?
ofg said,
Dont you want to be in a church body where you can worship and grow. Since BBC does not agree with you, shouldnt you find that church.
ofg, I am in a church where I can worship and grow. Thanks for your concern though. Or was that just a backhanded "if you don't like it, you can leave" comment? Yes, it was.
Listen, you and I have had this conversation before on this blog. You don't have to agree with me/us, but that does not give you license to be rude to your brothers and sisters in Christ, regardless of "majority" or "minority."
I have never disrespected you on this blog, and I would appreciate it if you would return the favor.
Here is a helpful and reasoned article on "Emerging/Emergent Church" that highlights differences between it and "Seeker-sensitive churches" and "traditional" evangelicalism:
http://www.modernreformation.org/
dac05emerging.htm
Okay, that's it. "Overflowing______" is finished. If all you want to do is argue, you need to take it elsewhere. Please just ignore him/her and NASS will take out the trash.
gmommy, Please email me.
Tim,
Neither the bylaws nor Robert's Rules reference a "suspended meeting". I've never heard the term before. Can you tell us what a "suspended meeting" is and on what authority they can call one?
Robert's Rules mentions "special" meetings, but those can only be called if the bylaws authorize the calling of "special" meetings. BBC's bylaws don't, so a special meeting is not an option.
The only available option I can see under Robert's Rules is a regular business meeting.
tn_lizzie said...
"Does everyone have plans for Easter Sunday already?
Repost:
Would anyone be interested in meeting at a park or somewhere to worship the Risen Christ on April 8?
How about a bring-your-own-Bible, bring-lunch-to-share, bring blankets/chairs kind of service where we sing hymns and read scripture and invite God to join us... Anyone interested?"
*******
This would be great, but I am afraid since no one has answered that they must already be cooking the Easter ham or invited to eat one at Mommaw's house. We do need to start doing something like this at least until we get "Beautiful Sight Baptist Church" going--or is it going to be named "Truth Church". We will just have to vote on it among the members once we get together. I wish I had a bigger house so I could just invite everyone to come here. I have never done anything like that, but it sure would be a blessing.
What do you think about the week after Easter? Everyone? Anyone? We need an interim pastor, too. We may not be the biggest, richest church, but we'll be Christ-honoring and we will love our pastor if he honors Christ, too.
Here I go getting excited again!
HALLELUJAH!
bin wonderin said...
"Neither the bylaws nor Robert's Rules reference a "suspended meeting". I've never heard the term before. Can you tell us what a "suspended meeting" is and on what authority they can call one?"
********
Dear Bin,
Being an expert in parliamentary procedure, I recognize the term "suspended meeting" as coming from The New Revised Standard International Non-English Speaking version of Umakeitupasyougo Rules of Order manual.
I am surprised someone of your social stature and expertise would not have known that.
Smilin' again,
Dee
Please forgive me but I think the Beautiful Sight name is just corney or over the top....and I tend to lean towards the dramatic side ...but simple is best.IMHO We know where to find all the hoop la .
I liked the hymns and Bible reading. Do we have to have an actual Preacher immediately?
Would be really cool for everyone to be so humble before the Lord that no one had to be the big guy present...I am so weary of arrogance and pride.
Please, a request. When someone addresses 'overflowinggrace' as 'og', it is too close to 'oc'. Way too close. Please refer to him/her as 'ofg' or whatever, but I don't want to be confused with this person.
I think you understand why. Thankyou for your cooperation.
Your friend and mine, OC :)
gmommylv,
Glad to hear someone else putting in their two cents worth. We will eventually vote on a name or maybe we won't even have a name or a denomination or a pastor. We can just read the Bible and sing and pray. It might seem sort of like a Sunday School class. Nothing wrong with that.
Does anybody else want to make any suggestions?
There, there. It's all right, oc. No one should be addressing him/her any more.
2006huldah,
I'm too tired to think tonight. Maybe tomorrow.
2006, tn_lizzie: I'm up for it...even asked my kids what they thought and they said, "sure." Let me know what you decide.
Of course, we HAVE to sing, "Up From the Grave He Arose."
"Would be really cool for everyone to be so humble before the Lord that no one had to be the big guy present...I am so weary of arrogance and pride."
Amen, sister. If you really think about it, the 'pastor' is really an elder and the Holy Spirit should really be the one preparing the sermons...
Why not just 'Worship' your risen King? Nothing wrong with just reading the Word. The Word teaches.
gmommylv,
I think I agree with you about the name "Beautiful Sight".
2006Huldah,
You said, "maybe we won't even have a name or a denomination or a pastor. We can just read the Bible and sing and pray."
Sounds like emergent to me. :)
junkmail99 said...
2006Huldah,
You said, "maybe we won't even have a name or a denomination or a pastor. We can just read the Bible and sing and pray."
Sounds like emergent to me. :)
*********
You're kidding me, I hope. I don't know enough about emergent to know if you're serious or joking.
Still smilin',
Dee
Dee,
Yes, I was joking. From what I've read so far, "emergent / emerging" is a pretty broad term -- and one strain of it emphasizes informality and de-emphasises Bible teaching/preaching, as a reaction against mega-churches of both the "traditional" and "seeker-sentitive / purpose-driven" types.
But of course that does not mean that every group of believers who meets in a house is "emergent". Far from it. So don't pay any attention to my strange humor ... people tell me that it is just as hard to tell when I am kidding or serious in person, too.
Lindon, NASS, and all,
What do you think about this?
OC: You've got mail.
junk" You didn't ask me, but I have mixed feelings. If they are digging deep and studying, it's hard to argue with that. But the location kinda creeps me out.
concerned,
Sure I aked you ... you're a part of "all" aren't ya? :)
Concerned,
Back at ya!
junk: what is "all"?
councerned...it raises some interesting questions, doesn't it? Like, which is better (or worse) ... bringing the world into the church, or bringing the church into the world? At what point do attempts to reach out to the world cross over into compromise with the world? Is there such a thing as "holy space", and if so, what defines it? And, to borrow a phrase, "What would Jesus do?"
junk: just got it...I'm tired...brain is on slow motion! Sorry!
Hey,
I can sing Up from the Ground He Arose!and all the other hymns we grew up on!! I'm not as good as I once was but still loud!!!
Worship...Reverance...what a beautiful thought.
I think I will get my old "TAPES" out from under the bed and see if I can get the dogs howling!!! LOL
junk: I think that's a great topic...one I would love to discuss tomorrow, considering my brain has just shut down.
Catch you tomorrow. (I know, I'm a wimp!)
concerned,
You know, "all" as in "all y'all", as in everyone here. I addressed the question to "Lindon, NASS, and all", so the "all" included you. That's all. :)
junk,
It didn't say if they keep the bar in that pub open. Can you imagine a bunch of drunk Baptists singing hymns at the tops of their lungs? You know, some of the tunes our traditional hymns are set to were originally old English drinking songs.
NASS,
For future reference, I'd like to see a thread for discussing ("in a respectful, Christian spirit") the kinds of questions I asked in my recent post ... what are appropriate and biblical methods for conducting church and for reaching the lost, when do our methods become "worldly" or compromise, how far is too far? What is truly just style or preference, and what is not? What are some examples folks have seen or heard about right and wrong ways to conduct worship services, church government, programs, etc.? What has BBC done right and wrong (past and present)?
Whachya think?
NASS,
Now that's a scary visual image! :)
I assumed the bar was open, but you're right, it didn't say. At least one of the comments posted refers to a similar pub church elsewhere where folks "might bring their pint along and listen in".
Thank you, junk. I'll certainly consider that. So you think the "pub church" thing would be a bit much, huh?
NASS,
Like concerned, I have mixed feelings. That's one of the reasons I'd like to see some further discussion on the issues raised. "Iron sharpens iron", ya know?
But do you think it could be done without using the words "Warrenism", "Rick Warren", "Purpose Driven", "PDC / PDL", "emergent / emerging", etc.? Hmmmm..... prolly not!
ok, Junk and NBBCOF,
Why are we the only ones up at this time of life? We must be the youngsters! Yahoo! Party, party, party! :)
Hey !
This gmommy is still awake....
OK, night night now..........
OK, goodnight gmommy.
(offsides)
bin wonderin,
The meeting to appoint delegates will be a regular meeting with the rules suspended to vote on a special order. I probably should have worded that differently in my original post.
The point is that there has been one reason after another to keep holding on and then the right thing will be done. People need to accept the fact that there is no intention to do the right thing.
Yes, there will be political posturing and it may convince a few that every thing possible has been done to bring every thing to a close and reconcile with the entire membership, but it will be nothing more than that, political posturing.
Let's look at the politics that have been played up to this point.
1. First the spin.
Steve Gaines whines like a home sick puppy because people don’t “amen” enough while he is preaching. However, one man “amen’s” so much that he can’t concentrate while preaching. He passes the word along to speak to this man before his next sermon to Mark Daugherty. Mark Daugherty asks two different staff members to handle this issue (David Smith & Bryson McQuiston). Both of these men refuse because they are disturbed that it would be offensive to the man. However, a third man Phil Weatherwax has no problem at all taking care of this little problem and does so in an extremely gentle and loving manner.
And now the rest of the story.
Ok, so a few details have been left out to protect the innocent. Most of those details are fairly irrelevant though. It really isn’t relevant that Steve Gaines had told Mark Dougherty about a dream in great detail about this man and how this dream revealed that this man was similar to the demoniac that followed and was rebuked by the apostle Paul. It really isn’t relevant that the terminology used to describe the action to be taken against this “amen” man was to “whack” him. It doesn’t affect anything in the least that the story of this dream and the actions to be taken were relayed to at least two ministers and also to Mark Sharpe. Certainly it wouldn’t make any sense to gather all those involved together with witnesses to determine the fact concerning this even, now would it.
2. First the spin.
The Fab Four (Steve Gaines, Chuck Taylor, Mark Dougherty, & John Caldwell) are involved in a meeting when they decide to visit Mark Sharpe in an attempt to "reconcile" with a brother. When they arrived they found that it was a gated community, so much as they would do on an EE visit they stepped over the “itty-bitty” fence. Later at an informational meeting Steve Gaines and Mark Dougherty apologized for trespassing on what was clearly marked as private property. Unfortunately, Mark was not at home and later attempts to reconcile with him were completely unsuccessful because he did not want to be reconciled.
And now the rest of the story.
Let’s add a few of the details to this story. Mark Sharpe had a meeting planned for the next evening of concerned Bellevue members in Bartlett. The “itty-bitty” fence was actually 41” tall and the tallest living man on earth would have trouble stepping over that fence. No further contact was even attempted until weeks later when Steve Gaines told Mark in a telephone conversation that he was acting just like “Hezbolah”. It was not until weeks after the informational meeting that a personal apology was made to Mark Sharpe for trespassing by most of those involved. As of this time John Caldwell has still not apologized for this incident.
3. First the spin.
Jim Whitmire after around 30 years of service reached a decision to retire from his ministry at Bellevue Baptist Church. Immediately following the announcement by Steve Gaines of Jim’s retirement, he announced that Jamie Parker was coming back to Memphis to replace him. Later Steve Gaines realized that this was in poor taste and apologized to Jim Whitmire for appearing to upstage his retirement with Jamie’s return.
And now the rest of the story.
Steve Gaines had told Jim Whitmire that Jamie Parker was returning to Memphis and that he would have to step down as the Music Minister and serve under Jamie. Steve Gaines told Jim that he was not man enough to serve under Jamie. Jim being the fine Christian man that he is and not willing to create any dissension among the brethren decided that he should step aside and comply with the new administrations demands. His family was highly upset and wanted to have Steve apologize to Jim personally, so a letter was sent to Harry Smith to see if he could help resolve this situation. Harry delivered the letter directly to Steve Gaines without any admonishment whatsoever for his poor judgment. The day of the funeral for our beloved Pastor Emeritus, Steve Gaines called Jim, his wife Linda and Harry Smith into his office. There was a brief discussion, after which Steve Gaines slammed his hands unto his desk and then raised them into the air and commented in a loud voice, “OK, OK, You win! I’m SORRY!” Please note that Harry Smith was in this meeting and witnessed this childish temper tantrum and yet has protected Steve Gaines until he had spent every last ounce of his own integrity in the process.
More points to follow.
Sorry for the length of this post and of course this has all been said before, but it needs to be said again.
OFG said
I know many that were against Brother Steve before he ever arrived at BBC. I believe you just indicated that in your comments.
Piglet says:
My comments are below and indicate nothing of the sort.
Why people are so behind HIM and angry at US is beyond me. We did not force him to make all these ridiculous mistakes. We did not force him to treat so many at this church with less respect than they deserve. I was all ready to try to settle in and get used to him and the changes. Differences in trivial taste issues are one thing but his sin and his inability to lead by example are non-negotiable!
9:31 PM, March 30, 2007
I said the opposite. I was adjusting to a new pastor. I totally truted the pastor search committee and the fact that Gaines was approved by Dr. Rogers left me with no doubts.
It was not until all this stuff started happening and we found out that the story we were being told about it in Sunday School was an outright lie that we investigated and began to see. His public shenanigans didn't help.
What is it like to renounce self-determinization in your personal life?
Luke 12:22-34 (King James Version)
22And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on.
23The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment.
24Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?
25And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?
26If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?
27Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
28If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?
29And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind.
30For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.
31But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
32Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
33Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
34For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Piglet,
I apologize!! I took your comments the wrong way. I'll put it this way. The families that I know that are against Brother Steve, were against him before he ever arrived.
OFG,
OK, I'll bite. Why were they against him before he even came?
OC: You'll probably be told something like they couldn't let Dr. R go. What a load of trash. That's demeaning to the discerning spirit of many.
Tim said...
The meeting to appoint delegates will be a regular meeting with the rules suspended to vote on a special order. I probably should have worded that differently in my original post.
The point is that there has been one reason after another to keep holding on and then the right thing will be done. People need to accept the fact that there is no intention to do the right thing.
Thanks for the reply Tim. I agree there is no intention to do the right thing. However, in order to suspend the rules it will take a 2/3 vote. Perhaps they will try to suspend the rules and take up the motion on the delegates first so they could skip “unfinished business”. When you “suspend the rules” it does not suspend ALL the rules although the term makes it sound like that is what is happening. You only suspend a specific rule. For example if they want to adopt the SBC delegates first (out of the regular order of business) they might make a motion "to dispense with the regular order of business and proceed to approval of the SBC delegates". This would suspend the rule that you take up unfinished business before new business, but it will require a 2/3 vote.
In such a case, when the matter taken up out of its proper order has been disposed of, the chair must return to the regular order of business and call for the items in sequence, unless the assembly then votes to adjourn. Of course we have already discussed items that are in order after the vote to adjourn has taken place, such as setting the time for the next regular meetings.
If they have the 2/3 majority required to vote to suspend the rules and then the majority votes needed to adjourn immediately then there is little than can be done. A motion to set the time for the next meetings is the only available option since it is always in order and superior to the privileged motion to adjourn when made properly. But they should have to follow proper procedure. I doubt it will sit well with folks to try this suspend the rules maneuver. The motion to suspend the rules was not designed to silence the membership. It was designed to take things up outside of the regular order of business when people need to catch airplanes or such things as that.
Concerned,
Yeah, you're right. It was foolish of me to 'bite'. What was I thinkin'?
Just catching up from last night.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but was there not a tacit agreement a few weeks ago regarding not using continued references to "Koolaid drinkers?"
And in the spirit of being kind one to another, references to people being overweight probably should go, as well. Especially those that are said in an unkind manner.
Just sayin'.
It is time for God's people to pray. Perhaps we all could take some time today to pray for tomorrow morning.
Pray for God's will to be received.
Pray for God's truth to be revealed.
Pray for God's people to repent.
Pray for God's Holy Spirit to be restored.
I would ask each of you to "blog-fast" from noon to five today and pray. God moves when His people pray.
I love Bellevue and want our Church to be healed and for us to move in one Spirit for God's glory.
Advice from Lucy! said...
Corruption is deep in Memphis, isn't it? At least the Commercial Appeal has been running a series on that. Ever think about the fact that repentance must begin at the 'House of God'?
Could it be that revival will also come to the blog? Perhaps we should entertain that thought?
Lucy's booth will now be closed for the evening.
Thank you for your time.
Lucy
Let's give this 5 cents to our local church. We should be able to do that soon.
4:48 PM, March 30, 2007
I just want the truth,
I just want the truth too!!!
Amen! Said with clarity.
May God clean house in the body . . . and then unite us in the love of His Son.
overflowinggrace said...
Piglet,
I apologize!! I took your comments the wrong way. I'll put it this way. The families that I know that are against Brother Steve, were against him before he ever arrived.
7:21 AM, March 31, 2007
I was not against Gaines when he first came. I was willing to give him a chance. However, his actions and behavior has turned many against him. Granted, I have said some things that are indeed out of line, mainly out of frustration and disgust. I think if Gaines and Co. were more open and forthcoming with the congregation, and used some common sense, perhaps we wouldn't have reached the point we have now. I think you would agree that the longer something goes unresolved, the worse a situation becomes. Gaines attitude toward those who disagree with him is the biggest reason I turned against him.
maybejustmaybe said.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but was there not a tacit agreement a few weeks ago regarding not using continued references to "Koolaid drinkers?"
Ok "fruit punch". Will that work for ya?
I'm following up on the discussion I was in last night...
Some of you might find this link about home discipleship interesting. http://www.homediscipleship.org/starting/family.php
They teach families to study the Word daily, using "Disciple America Bible Reading plan 2007."
I found this on their site:
"Some groups of home discipling families have gathered together for hymn sings, instead of planting a church. Hymns sings are once a month events where families eat together, sing hymns together and recite scripture for each other. This is a simpler way to meet with families if you are not quite ready to start a new church."
I own their hymnbook and CDs (can't say I recommend the CDs) and use the "365 Key Chapters in a Year - Devotionals for Families with Young Children" and our girls (3 to 12) love it!
oc wrote:
"Ok "fruit punch". Will that work for ya?"
Okay, oc. You're living up to your name with that one! Seriously, I want to again ask everyone to please refrain from any references to spiked beverages. It is offensive to some and isn't necessary to convey your ideas. Thanks for your cooperation.
NBBCOF
NASS.
Sorry. I respectfully submit my apology and ask for forgiveness.
bin wonderin,
I had also read the 2/3 majority vote to suspend the rules. However, in order to accomplish this the motion will be made to suspend the rules for the special order of appointing delegates to the SBC. The delegates will easily recieve a 2/3 vote in all likely hood and the motion to suspend the rules will pass buried in it.
The best way to overcome this tactic would be to make a motion to split the question. However, it is doubtful that any discussion or motions will be allowed.
The devices of politics are devious and so much more when introduced in a church setting.
OFG
Just logging on. Thanks for the apology, and I accept. :)
Koragg
I echo your comments - and I think I've stepped over the line some with a few of my remarks. My apologies to those I have offended with fleshly remarks (but not to those I've offended with the truth).
There are many folks that I dearly love who seem to support the pastor and I haven't confronted them, nor would I, because emotions are so raw and I wouldn't want to drive a wedge.
Only in my closest friendships that are solid enough to withstand some friction have I raised the issues.
But when folks come to our only "safe place" to air our grievances (we saw Sunday that a church meeting isn't safe) watch out!
This piggy has opinions! :0)
Junk, LoL, That is a bit too emergent for me...
BTW: About the only definition I can safely come up with about emergents is that they are having a 'conversation' in search of scriptural truth.
My guess is that once they all decide they have found the absolute truth, the gig is up which means the conversation will actually never end because they will never agree to any absolute truth.
Was that clear as mud?
Greetings all, (no silence today)
I have checked in on you every now and then to see if there has been any progress or resolution. I am saddened for you that things seem no different.
Just an opinion:
I see that several are considering the idea of beginning a church. While circumstances have brought you to this, there are a couple of thoughts you should consider concerning the new testament model of the Lord's churches
-the churches that were established first were by commission of Christ to his apostles. (Paul also)
-while there are no more apostles, the same model should be considered; that is, the Lord's churches are established by commission from another of the Lord's churches of like faith and doctrine
-while BBC will not likely commission you to establish another church (not that you would want them to), it may be wise to bring your situation (and desire) to another church (of like faith and doctrine) if you are indeed serious about this
-while another church may commission you to 'begin' a new local church, there is no 'catholic' authority over this church; I have seen 'mother' churches establish 'missions', and wield authority over them; this does not adhere to what is revealed in the new testament model; the local church is independent and autonomous from other churches or made made entities
-the commissioning church does not have to 'appoint' the pastor or overseer, but via the biblical model, that local church is usually established under the guidance of a missionary/evangelist, until a proper and qualified pastor is agreed upon; so it is important that the missionary/evangelist in this process is well known and trusted among you, and scripturally qualified...not a novice
-the commissioning church can also advise you on the legalities and proper steps in the process of beginning a church...and if you are serious, I'm sure you will do your homework on by-laws and statements of faith
I only offer this bit of advice because I have been involved in such a process and in following this model, all things were done orderly, legally, smoothly, and (as I believe that we were led by God) scripturally. It has been one of the most humbling and greatest experiences of our life.
I pray that all your endeavors will be led by our Lord and affirmed by the Word.
Blessings,
Amos
ps...while you have had a bad experience with an 'undershepherd', the Lord does have His men who have His glory at the forefront and love for His sheep. If it be the Lord's will in establishing a new church, may He be pleased to bring one of these into your midst.
overflowinggrace said...
Proverbs...for the record...
For-8000
Against-100
I love our pastor and can make up my own mind. You just can't stand losing. 9:49 PM, March 30, 2007
OFG,
There are a multitude of examples in scripture that are the complete opposite of your example here. God and the minority is '
THE majority' . . . PERIOD.
Regardless of what man can see with his eyes, God's work cannot be seen with the eyes. His Spirit is able to do mighty works.
To start with, the total attendance would come closer to 6,500, and the against group you speak of are really in favor of the welfare of the church and the saints (not against anything but sin). It appears that you exaggerated numbers, and see them with rose colored glasses. Take the glasses off and things will begin to appear in reality. It is understandable not to want to lose, but what is righteous and holy is not losing here.
Lucy
That will be 10 cents please. You got much more than the normal session.
Maybejustmaybe said...
Just catching up from last night.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but was there not a tacit agreement a few weeks ago regarding not using continued references to "Koolaid drinkers?"
And in the spirit of being kind one to another, references to people being overweight probably should go, as well. Especially those that are said in an unkind manner.
*******
I see you are feeling a need to take offense at simple remarks made on this blog that really are not that offensive at all. Perhaps, after seeing your comments on the petition in support of Steve Gaines both I and others should be able to understand exactly why you are offended even though those comments were not directed at you. Apparently, Miriam Wilmoth, your lifelong friendship with Donna Gaines might have somewhat caused you to have a slightly biased view towards us.
For you to chastise us for comments such as the one I made in reference to the user name that "overflowinggrace" has chosen and who obviously demonstrates postings of a non-grace-filled manner, reveals to me the depth of your love for your fellow man when they do not fall in line with your own sentiments.
The "kool-aid drinkers" comments used by those on here are so trivial compared to the actual law-breaking tactics committed by our own pastor that your rod of correction that you have applied to us bears no merit at all.
The tactics used by those who come here to only cause trouble, cast doubt and guilt, and who are attempting to silence us so that Bellevue Baptist Church under Dr. Steve Gaines can continue on its chosen path are not welcome. The "thought police" need to stay inside the church building with their security guards who drag 15-year-old girls out of service in handcuffs, pan the voting crowds with cameras, deny continuation of business meeting proceedings, silence those who say "Amen" too much, etc., etc., etc.
JESUS IS LORD OF ALL!
Dee
Dee,
Thanks.
I wasn't "against" SG before he came to Bellevue. I voted for him as most of us did. We trusted that he was the man for Bellevue. I don't understand why I don't have scales on my eyes (as MOST of my friends do). I don't understand why I can see all of this sin and corruption so clearly. I am non-confrontational and my "gift" is mercy and exhortation. Why I am being thrust into this position of standing up and saying no to these things is just beyond me. It's costing my family more than we counted on. That's ok. I know that my family is being obedient to the Lord and he will bless us for it, no matter what it costs us. We are only going to HIM for answers in all of these situations and it doesn't matter if it goes against what anyone else says. We are answering to the Lord, not man or a set of buildings. Ezekiel 34:1-24.
youthmomma
Amen.
lin,
I like your "emergent" definition. In all my research, that is about all I can come up with as well.
2006huldah,
In reference to your post at 2:02 yesterday, I agree with almost everything you say there with the exception of the SCT and Passion Play. I believe that drama that is truly about glorifying God can be very important for the Body of believers and also for any guests they might bring along with them. I own a small business and one year I was able to bring several of my clients of all different denominations and faiths to the SCT. I knew that they were going to hear the gospel message presented in song/drama and also by Dr. Rogers at the end. All of us process things differently whether it be by hearing music, seeing something acted out, or listening to a wonderful man of God preach the gospel. Very small children can watch the nativity being acted out and can understand at their level what is going on. Older children can watch the Passion Play and actually SEE how Jesus was treated. I find that it is much harder for me to watch than to read about. My husband and I have had the opportunity to serve under Jim Whitmire the past several years during the Passion Play at BBC and again this year at GBC. We have been so blessed by this experience. We aren't up there having a party - there is a lot of hard work that goes into something of this magnitude. We have also have a lot of fun and meet a lot of really neat people. I believe that Jim Whitmire is God's bondservant and that he does everything for God's glory and never for his own. JMO.
Dee, I also love your idea of a real prayer meeting with a potluck. We do have real prayer meetings at our new church. We pray for the troops, medical needs, homebound, and specific missionaries every week. It is a very special and important time for our family.
DH
Amos,
I missed you!!!! I said so just the other night!!! Thank you for breaking your silence today for us!!!
I am not melted anymore!!
Being Molded.
overflowinggrace: Welcome and great posts.
Lucy & Youthmama,
It's exactly right to say that God and the minority is the majority. When God is on your side the numbers do not matter. Here is the problem, we(My Family) are prayed up on this and feel that Dr. Gaines is the man for BBC. Thats all I need. If SG is who you say he is, then God will reveal it so clearly that he will have no support. I am sure that in a crowd as large as this past Sunday's attendance their are some folks who are not being obedient to the Holy Spirit. Probably some voting for and some voting against. We do take it personally when people assume that since we support SG that we have our eyes closed and are not listening to God on the subject. Who is right...it's a real challenge in faith. We are a body of believers it's unfair to compare us to Jerusalem and Pontious Pilate.
Most every day someone on this blog makes the claim that SG supporters are either unsaved or in the dark. I challenge anyone to find a quote where a SG supporter has done that to you on this blog.
4545,
Welcome, 7 days of running, and no substance. Bet you are tired. 7 days, and STILL waiting.
And you are excited now, because you think your buddy OFG is going to pull your tail out of the fire. Think again, he can't help you. You are on your own with this. Man up.
Tim said…
The best way to overcome this tactic would be to make a motion to split the question. However, it is doubtful that any discussion or motions will be allowed.
The devices of politics are devious and so much more when introduced in a church setting.
Hi Tim,
A motion to suspend is a separate incidental motion. Because it is an incidental motion it cannot be combined into a main motion. The appointment of the delegates is the main motion. If the elders try to combine the motions a point of order can be raised and the congregation will have to vote to suspend the rules first then vote for the SBC delegates. If the chair overrules the point of order [bad move on his part] just "appeal the ruling of the chair". Appeals of the chair are debatable and will allow you to read the rules to the congregation straight out of Rober'ts. If the congregation knowingly votes to not follow Robert’s Rules, well there is not a lot you can do about a group of people not willing to play by the rules. Also during the appeal – which is debatable - you can remind the congregation why the leaders are trying to suspend the rules – to avoid taking a vote on sexual purity. I do not think that will sit well with the BBC congrgation, I hope not anyway.
Remember – they will have to state why the want to suspend the rules – in order to take a vote on current SBC delegates before voting to adopt a sexual purity resolution passed at a prior SBC convention by delegates. How ironic they want to suspend the rules to appoint this year's delegates but they want to avoid the adoption of a resolution passed by prior delegtes.
The key is making as many people aware of what will happen before it happens. It is too fast & confusing for many to understand real-time at a meeting. The chair should explain it fully, but he may not. After the last meeting it is apparent the chair does not fully know the rules (or does and ignores those to his disadvantage). By explaining before the meeting to your friends and families what will happen and why it is wrong usually helps a lot. Then you have to “turn out the vote”. I have great confidence in the congrgation of BBC to do the right and fair thing.
OFG.
I'm sorry, I meant 'debate'. I used the wrong words. Didn't mean it as a threat. I apologize. I regret my choice of phrasing.
On the other hand,why did you get the idea that you should 'meet' me? Is that not a threat in itself? But yes,if you are challenging me, I'll meet you. But it won't be good for you. I do not like violence, so this won't last long.
OC,
LOLOL!!! I just spewed my diet coke all over my keyboard!!!
I suppose that it doesn't bother OFG that SG treated Dr. Jim Whitmire the way he did.
I wonder if OFG BELIEVES that SG did that to him?
IF she/he doesn't believe it, then one can assume that he/she has head in the sand...and if he/she DOES believe it...
WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE THE OVERFLOWING TOILET?
right here:
SO WHAT?
THat's where we are folks...SO WHAT...
Where have we heard that before?
When Bill Clinton was president?
" Bill Clinton had an affair with a 21 y/o intern"
" SO WHAT"
" Bill Clinton stole FBI files"
" SO WHAT"
I could go on and on.
This is the truth:
When people have made their minds up, they do not care what that person does that they support. They spend their own integrity defending that person, all while the person they are defending is amused at what their charismatic personality can make the ignorant masses believe.
http://sbcpastor.blogspot.com/index.html
Interesting reading on this site: This young Pastor seems to have a heads up on a lot of the problems in the SBC.
Beer and Bibles: New Churches Lure Young Members.”
Featured in the two-and-a-half minute segment was Darrin Patrick, founder and senior pastor of The Journey in St. Louis -- a Southern Baptist church with ties to the emerging church movement, the North American Mission Board and the Missouri Baptist Convention, which loaned the church $200,000 to help start a church planting center.
The emerging church movement is diverse and difficult to generalize. However, the mix of influences includes: postmodernism (a focus on sense-making through the various mediums of culture); Calvinism ala John Piper; and for some, Christian liberty, as granted by their scriptural interpretation, to drink alcohol and engage in other cultural activities that many Southern Baptists eschew based on opposing scriptural interpretation.
ecially
Sick,
I was a little disappointed that Whitmire did not retire before SG had to force him. I feel like SG should be able to pick his staff. It was not secret that JP would replace Whitmire. That's just my opinion, so don't blast me out of the water. Also, JW was past the mandatory retirement age anyway.
OC,
I really don't know how to take you. All of your comments about tearing me up and telling me to "man up", and your most recent that it wouldnt last long. I feel like you are advocating a physical confrontation.
"If SG is who you say he is, then God will reveal it so clearly that he will have no support."
What Bible are you reading? This is a very dangerous lie you are believing. I am not sure what you mean by reveal it so clearly? I think it has been revealed very clearly. Unbelievably so.
But now you are saying that God has to make it so their is NO support for him at all for you to believe it. (You do realize that you are admitting that you are looking to men...mere humans for how to think and what to believe)
YOu do realize that many will follow the anti Christ. He will have a majority support. Some of them will be professing Christians.
Bowtheknee,
I have nothing against a smaller scale SCT or LP. The SCT at the old church used to be more like a normal church Christmas program. Now, it has become a grand, Hollywood-style production with huge, ornate sets and choreography with large numbers of cast members. Don't get me wrong. I do not question the hearts or motives who perform in these plays; I simply wish for something simple and holy and reflective of the holy seasons they portray. A huge play would be fine at GPAC or BPAC, but not at church. To me, the sanctuary should be just that. I don't even like it when we recognize dignitaries like Bill Frist, etc. Jesus is Lord of all and definitely should be in the sanctuary of the church. If we aren't going to use it solely as a sanctuary, then we ought to be calling it Bellevue Baptist Church Performing Arts Center. Of course, that is just my humble opinion and I don't necessarily expect you to agree.
Yesterday, all I said was that if I were the pastor of BBC, I would do away with a lot of stuff, and you saw the list. Now, we are supposed to be forming a new church. It was fun but it is not realistic. It is not what we really want anyway. Amos, you don't need to worry about us because I doubt anything big like that is getting ready to happen.
Thank you for your input anyway.
OFG,
Well, I explained my unfortunate use of the English language as pertaining to you. Apparently, you don't accept my apology.
As far as the 'man up' statement, I believe I directed that to 4545.Have been for 7 days. So mind your own business.
And no, I am in no way 'advocating a physical confrontation.' Again, I do not like violence, and this would not be good for you. You need to leave this alone. Get it?
Overflowinggrace said...
"I have a name for your new church. First Self Righteous Stuck In The Past Baptist Church."
********
This was one of overflowinggrace's gracious posts. Do you wonder why I think this is either a hateful man without true grace or else a woman named "grace" self-described as an obese person?
You are a man or else you wouldn't be talking about meeting OC or having a physical confrontation.
OFG
THAT IS NOT THE POINT!!
NO one deserves to be treated the way that SG treated Jim Whitmire.
It doesn't matter that YOU think it was time for JW to retire.
WHat does matter, though is the way that SG treated him. IF you were not so blind, you would see the fruit of SG in his particular incident.
You are spending your integrity to defend a man that will be amused that you would do so, no matter what he does.
OFG,
go back and read what TIm wrote about how JW was treat by SG...how he pounded his fist on the table and said, " OK, YOU WIN!! I'M SORRY!"
He glared at JW during the ENTIRE funeral service for Dr. R.
Is that the way that you think a pastor should behave?
I don't care if JW was 99 y/o, this was no way to treat him.
Again, you are spending your own integrity by defending the indefensible.
I am beginning to understand how the anti christ will be able to come in and convince people of ANYTHING.
Dear Father God,
Please keep my eyes open and give me a discerning spirit so that I will not follow evil. Amen.
Overflowinggrace said...
"Have fun at your church in the park."
*******
You have fun at the church formerly known as Bellevue Baptist which is being transitioned into PDL Bellevue .
Alright OFG,
Just call it a 'mistake of the head, not of the heart'. Treat me like a pedophile and overlook my 'moral failures'. Treat our unfortunate discourse as an 'itty bitty fence'. I think you don't like me because I am not a 15 year old girl you can intimidate.
Now, forgive me if I holler 'Amen' too loud as you leave...
HEy Guys
Someone told me last night that the family of the 15 y/o girl has been talking to Michael Reagan, of the " Michael Reagan Show" concerning what happened at BBC.
ONLYAMEMBER, can you confirm or deny this?
ofg says:
I have tried to bring truth to the blogs, but your hearts have turned to stone and your ears and eyes are closed.
SOTL says:
ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL
SOTL: I agree.
OFG said: "Have fun at your church in the park." Do you mean to sound so condescending, or does it just come out that way? Church is for WORSHIP. Scripture says anywhere two or more are gathered in His name, He is there. Don't think that specifies a building with pews necessarily. Pride seems to be an issue with some; I care not where I worship as long as He is there.
OverflowingGrace said,
Here is the problem, we (My Family) are prayed up on this and feel that Dr. Gaines is the man for BBC. That’s all I need.
OverflowingGrace,
I hear what you are saying, about being prayed up and still feel like Steve Gaines is the man to lead Bellevue. I have struggled with this myself. I pray that God will clear my biases, and show me how to receive him as my pastor. I, like many others, want this to be the case. And to be quite honest, all Steve Gaines has done, is exactly what he said he would do. If we (and the search committee) had just listened... But to say "we are prayed up, and that's all we need", and then to ignore so many truths, and offences that God HAS let come to light, crosses the lines of common sense.
Then you say,
If SG is who you say he is, then God will reveal it so clearly that he will have no support.
If only this were the case. Time and time again we see examples of his decision making skills, and his indifference to others, and yet we continue to excuse this as youthful miss-steps.
The man is nearly 50. He is the way he is. He is not going to suddenly "grow up" with a few more years of experience. He knows exactly what he is doing, and is succeeding at reaching his goal. The truth IS clear.
‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’
Wedge: Welcome. Excellent post.
Huldah,
I just wish we could go back to calling it a sanctuary instead of a "worship center." Why does everything have to have a new name???
I actually agree with you about the large sets and tons of cast members however I don't want to tear down JW and Dr. R in the process of airing our thoughts. That's all!
DH
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