What do you think are the top 3 issues facing Bellevue Baptist Church today? Give your reasons.
Many of these issues apply to the church at large as well. This book, In the Name of Purpose: Sacrificing Truth on the Altar of Unity, by Tamara Hartzell, addresses some of the problems affecting the church today. It's a free eBook available on the "Book Contents" page.
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«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 582 of 582"Please, those of you who are the scholars out there, would you for the sake of a good many of us explain the PDL (Purpose Driven Life) movement and why we should not want to be a part of a church and perhaps (sadly) even an entire denomination that has gone to it? "
I am no scholar but I think that naming it PDL makes it confusing to see as a whole movement. PDL is just one 'method' by Rick Warren.
It is called the Church Growth Movement and it takes on many forms such as transformation, visioneering, Bono, Obama, emergent, etc. Just go to Lifeway and browse the aisles and you can see for yourself. There is big money to made. 'Christians' have become the big new market and even Hollywood has taken notice.
The most common denominator is 'man centered'. That is hard to see at first because they talk a good game and their 'what we believe' statements are usually correct. But if you look closer..when they say it is NOT about you, you will notice that all actions, programs, events and teaching really is about YOU. It is about entertaining you and meeting your 'felt needs'. Boy there is more but people really need to check it out according to the Word. Never forget what Jesus' first sermons were in Matthew and Mark.
Check this out for a look at the 'emergents'. Watch for as long as you can stand it.
http://www.current.tv/watch/21674856
Warning: There are 'mini-emergent' groups in almost all mega's.
If you ever wonder why people like Dobson don't speak out about the emergent movement...here is the reason:
http://www.korministries.com/
And, this guy has aligned himself with the XXXChurch.
Lindon responded to Dee's questions about the Purpose-Driven Life movement in the following manner:
"Go here to listen to Pastor David Wilkerson teaching on the seeker friendly 'gospel of accomodation'.
http://coffeetradernews.blogspot.com/2007/02/rebuke-on-purpose-drivenseeker-friendly.html"
********
Thank you, Lin. I am going there now to read this.
Love to you, my sister,
Dee
Lindon,
Thank you also for the other two sites. If and when I ever finish reading all this information you have given me today, I will check back to see if you have given us more.
Thank you, Lord, for my sister, Lindon. She helps me a lot with her knowledge of Your Word. You, Lord, truly are a Wonderful Saviour and Provider. I love you, Lord. Amen.
Dee
terry smith said, "Response from another poster, do not discuss with anyone who disagrees, they are the devil."
In reference to:
imaresistor said...
"It could well be in the best interest of the resistors to slide right on by the posts of JMO and Memphis. Things are too crucial to allow these folks to come here to create havoc. Keep your focus and don't allow these people to create confusion. They know how to pull your strings. Don't allow it."
9:25 PM, February 23, 2007
Come on Terry...get it straight. If you are going to repeat what I say, at least get it close...this isn't even close! Surely you can even paraphrase better than this. I didn't say 'discuss'; I didn't say disagree(s); and I most certainly didn't say 'devil'. Matter of fact I never use the word 'devil'...the word 'devil' conjurs up in my mind a comic book
caricature of satan, so I avoid the word 'devil' because there is no humor in satan...the unholy one who woes us so that we will someday be his eternal guests. The very mention of the name should have us all on our faces in the presence of the Great One, begging His forgiveness for the horrific treatment in trying to run off our fellow brothers/sisters in Christ from their church(es). The Bible tells us that our very Godly nature is shown through how we show our love to the bretheren. So, is this how it is done. So, please sir...I certainly have no problem in you repeating or bringing attention to anything I say, but please do tell it like I did.
And...too, we all know that this forum was created for those who have been treated so cruelly that they either left Bellevue because they were asked to leave or were put in such nefarious positions they felt they couldn't stay. This was the place where they could gather and discuss their alternatives. There have been many who camped on the other side of the lake who have taken advantage of this to further marginalize these dissidents. So, yes...I would think out of courtesy those of you in that camp should have kept your distance and let these people have time to think, discuss, and pray. But no...you took advantage of the situation to confuse and conflict. I find this sad. And now...you have my blessed permission to cut me off at the knees. I wouldn't expect anything else. And as you do, please know that you, too, have been in my prayers.
Jude 1
17But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." 19These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.
20But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. 21Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
22Be merciful to those who doubt; 23snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.
24To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen
Note: I tried to post this earlier but I don't think it went through.
Carol T: I agree with you. I never felt quite "right" about it...a check in my spirit, if you will. ;) However, the more I read and studied, the more certain I was that the CGM/warrenism/PDL movements were not completely scriptural. See, that's the thing...they deceive many because they aren't wholesale blasphemy. They sound ok if you don't look too closely. However, "stretchin' the truth is tellin' a lie" according to scripture. 2 Corinthians 2:17 "For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ."
(Note from my Bible: Even in Paul's day, there already were many false prophets and false teachers who were corrupting the sincere teaching of God's Word with various elements of paganism. One of Paul's main purposes in writing this epistle was to warn against these compromising teachers.) It's a compromising of scripture, a twisting of it, that makes it so deceiving.
Those movements also seem somewhat contrary to Matthew 7:14 "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." I'm not saying I don't want people to find it; I'm saying scripture says few will. That is why numbers mean nothing.
as usual, jmho
I haven't read all the posts from this morning, but I have read enough to see that there are those wanting more information on PDL, CGM, Rick Warren, False Teachers, etc. I posted a lengthy post several months ago on the blog and I am going to repeat this post now. Hope you will get some information on this one. I will probably post another one or so. It is imperative that you research, learn and know exactly what is happening in our churches today. Without this knowledge, you will simply not 'get it'.
Here goes:
Several days ago, after having given the idea a lot of thought and after having prayed about it, I decided to post to the blog in hopes the people there could relate to problems arising from the church growth movements from my experience. This website has been birthed out of a need for those members of Bellevue to come together and discuss their situation arising from the atrocities present in their church. Needless to say, most of the people presenting themselves in this website and the blog are those who would be considered to be the resistors, the pillars, and/or the “leaders from hell” which I make mention to in my following post. It is my prayer that the scales will fall from the eyes of those who are blinded to this movement. My post to the Bellevue blog follows:
1 Timothy 4:1, 6 “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;…If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.”
I am taking seriously your invitation to post here if one has something which might aid in the understanding of what is taking place at BBC. Taking this into consideration in that I have ‘been there, done that’, I do have a few things to say which I hope will be beneficial to you. Please understand that what I am about to say is done with the intent to help rather than to hurt anyone. The people who are responsible in having ‘driven’ fellow church members out of their churches need to repent and make public apologies to their victims in making right the wrongs they have done to the Body of Christ. Having said this, I want to tell you that there is little doubt in my mind that your church is being highjacked by the purpose driven movement. I have spent the last one and one half years doing extensive research into this movement and others similar to it. It is my prayer that those initiating this movement in your church will repent and that the scales will be removed from the eyes of those members who are being manipulated by them. Please understand that what I am about to say only touches the tip of the iceberg. There is so much more to our story and there is so much more to be said of the devastation brought on by the PDM. This is not just about Bellevue Baptist Church, Germantown Baptist Church, Gardendale Baptist Church of Corpus Christi, Iuka Baptist Church, and hundreds of others…this is about the dishonor being brought about to our Lord Jesus Christ through this movement.
Since the beginning of savingbellevue.com, I have been reading and keeping up with things at BBC. My heart breaks for all of you, especially those of you considered to be 'resistors' or 'pillars' or ‘leaders from hell’. If these terms mean nothing to you, this probably means that you are not educating yourselves on the purpose driven movement enough to understand what is happening in your church. These terms refer to those who resist the movement and are asked to leave or are voted out (or worse) by those who are in control and are bringing the movement into the church. The harder these people resist, the harder they are dealt with. The blows can be devastating. These people, the resistors, have discerned that there is a serious problem in the church, even though they have not or cannot identify its root cause initially. Or it might be that these people are just no longer wanted in the church for whatever reason. This transitional movement is done in total secrecy. It is transitioned into an established church in darkness. More often than not it is a ‘slow boil’ and is often carried out over a period of several years. I have come to learn that often times the plans are fouled because those in the lead become impatient. Once they lose control, things run amuck. I believe there is a strong possibility you are witnessing this at Bellevue. Let me add here…if you have read Transitioning an Established Church by Chuck McAllister in Rick Warren’s Toolbox and it sends up red flags, then you best listen to your innermost being.
My blog name bears witness to the fact that my husband and I are victims of this horrible movement which has invaded churches all over the world. My husband was voted out of his church of fifty-nine years, as an active deacon in a business meeting that defies anything even remotely known as ‘Christian’ behavior. I could never have taken part in treating another human being in the manner in which my husband and these two other deacons were treated on that fateful day/evening on April 5th of this year. People who call themselves Christians actually stood and applauded, cheered, and rejoiced at what they perceived to be the spiritual destruction of three Godly men, not to even mention the damage to their character that could have manifested in their community as a result of this heinous act. The people taking part in this atrocity were jubilant, seemingly overjoyed with what I perceive to be the equivalent of a modern day lynching. That morning the other two deacons were approached by members of the active deacon board with typed resignations on church letter head stationary and were told that if they didn’t sign these typed resignations, they would be voted out that night at the business meeting. They signed. People have been led to believe that they willfully decided to resign and did so…this is not true. It was a well planned and orchestrated nefarious plot. My husband was not available so they could not ask him to sign his typed, church letter head resignation. I found two deacons that afternoon, including the chairman, in our secluded backyard, certainly not gated but private nevertheless, looking for my husband. I had seen one of these men driving slowly back and forth in front of our home earlier that day several times looking our way with a fixed stare. I felt like we were being ‘cased’. It was the most eerie, unnerving feeling I have ever had. These three deacons have yet to be told what they were guilty of. One of the deacons voted out was told by one of these deacons that they just didn’t ‘have the same ideas’. And, in fact, just shortly before they were ousted, the chairman of the deacons told my husband that if he wanted to remain fundamental Baptist, then he would need to get out and find himself a fundamental Baptist church. He said this is the direction the Southern Baptist Convention is taking. I can tell you what these three deacons were guilty of…they were guilty of loving their church enough to try and stop the invasion of the purpose driven movement into it by bringing it to the attention of the deacon board. I asked one of these deacons who took part in removing these three men at that business meeting on the evening of April 5th, just this past Sunday night for the first time since the business meeting just exactly what it was that these three men did to be removed from their church and his answer to me was, “I don’t know.” How pathetic this is. Tragic! Let me just add here, that it is possible to listen to this business meeting online. You can go to ‘abrahamic-faith.com/false-teachers.html and look near the bottom at ‘part 1 and part 2’ and listen to that April 5th meeting. My prayer for all of you is that you can find an answer before something like this happens in your church. I could write a book on what led up to all of this in our lives and it still continues on. The feeling of betrayal remains...it has left a bad taste. One of the most devastating things used to discredit these three deacons and their families from the onset and throughout all of this was the rumors they spread, total untruths…and people swallowed them. People who were our friends won’t speak now….we are avoided. It has divided families. The aftermath of this atrocity has been truly as remarkable as the events leading up to and including the night of April 5th, 2006. This is part of the plan of the purpose driven movement….the Hegelian dialectic. Pragmatism. Whatever it takes. There exists a picture of Rick Warren holding up a sign with this written on it, “Whatever It Takes.” Understand that these people will stop at nothing to get their way. You are already witnessing this at Bellevue. When I first started reading all of these things on your savingbellevue website about Mark Sharpe, I could not believe the similarities of the things that happened to him to those of my husband. It is truly incredible…the similarities. There was no doubt in my mind that Mark Sharpe was telling the truth. Truth is not a part of the purpose driven agenda. I could never have imagined I would have ever seen the things transpire in our former church, or any church for that matter, that I have witnessed.
In September, the Wall Street Journal featured an article by Suzanne Sataline titled, Veneration Gap-A Popular Strategy for Church Growth Splits Congregants. The front page carried a picture of my husband, the article written about both of us along with other congregants in other areas of our country. This was the first time a secular media has openly discussed anything in opposition involving Rick Warren and the purpose driven movement, aka church growth movements. For the first time, an avenue was opened where people could email a source voicing their opinions about the betrayal they had undergone in their churches. Ms. Sataline was inundated with emails from people like you and like us from all over the world…telling their horror stories about abuse coming from their churches. I pray that there will continue to be avenues opened up where people can voice their grievances on these issues and unite in the hope that people will return to the faith, turning from the seducing spirits and doctrines of devils so prevalent today. Your website, your blog are such avenues and I see this as an area of accountability. You are to be commended for this. We have been asked to write our story for publication. We must all tell our stories…we must fight this demonic transition overtaking our churches and our people. “For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?”- (Jesus Christ)-Mark 8:36.
I read one of your entries by a Germantown Baptist member, who stressed to all of you to educate yourselves on these movements so prevalent today, especially the Rick Warren movement. He is giving you excellent advice. This is truly the only way to learn what is going on in your church. I find that to be the main problem in churches…that members are unwilling to read about it, unwilling to educate themselves about it. It is not going to self destruct. One of the deacons in our former church, inactive at the time, told my daughter he didn’t know what purpose driven is, he didn’t want to know what purpose driven is, and had no intention of trying to find out. This man has since been voted back in as a deacon in said church. I find it to be total ignorance to refuse to educate oneself on something so crucial. It is truly tragic. One could fall prey easily when they don’t understand what is going on. This is a responsibility we owe ourselves. Mr. Haywood has ample information for you to read on savingbellevue.com. and at the beginning of this thread. I would like to include these which I find to be good sources and in no particular order: ‘crossroads.to’ by Andy and Berit Kjos; ‘sliceoflaodicea.com’ by Ingrid Schlueter; ‘lighthousetrailsresearch.com’ by David and Deborah Dombrowski; ‘abrahamic-faith.com/false-teachers.html’ by James Sundquist; ‘newswithviews.com’ Paul Proctor; ‘erwm.com’ (Eastern Regional Watch) by Steven Muse; ‘swrc.com’ Dr. Larry Spargimo and Noah Hutchings, ‘deceptioninthechurch.com’ and look under purpose driven. I would also like to recommend the books Redefining Christianity-Understanding the Purpose Driven Movement by Bob DeWaay, Who’s Driving the Purpose Driven Church? and Rick Warren’s Global Peace Plan vs. Scriptural Teachings on Peace by James Sundquist, Ashamed of the Gospel by John MacArthur, and Deceived on Purpose by Warren Smith. The book, Transitioning-Leading Your Church Through Change by Dan Southerland is one you should read…paying particular attention to Step 6, page 110 on Dealing with Opposition; the foreword is written by Rick Warren and instructs pastors on how to take your church into the purpose driven church by deception. You can also find similar reading in The Purpose Driven Church and of course, you can find all sorts of information of pastors.com, Rick Warren’s own website. You might want to pay particular attention to Dealing with Opposition, Step 6 under the thread, Transitioning, Dan Southerland. Please read and educate yourselves on this movement. It is true that you need to be careful what you read; however the footwork has been provided for you by Mr. Haywood and myself, as well. It is credible and validated.
The most important thing in all of this is…you must stand for what is right. You must take a stand for Jesus Christ at all costs. That is what my husband and the other two deacons who stood with him have done. There were others with us…small in number but big in heart and discernment. Standing for what is right is not always popular. The majority is not always right. Remember the crucifixion. This purpose driven movement is all about changing the church to become worldly…the Bible tells us in Romans 12:2 “Be not conformed to this world; but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”
“If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people; Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head…But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take [any] person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.” Ezekiel 33:3,4,6
Yours in Christ,
Ima
“That very church which the world likes best is sure to be that which God abhors.”-Charles H. Spurgeon, 1859
The following information contained within a previous post should also help in understanding PDM, CGM, etc...
A repeat of a previous post:
Go to http://www.pastors.com …, then to Pastor’s Forum and register if you haven’t. After you register, log in. You will see a General Information Thread. You will see all kinds of interesting threads, but pass them all up and scroll down to the 18th row to Transitioning Churches. Click on it. Obviously you will come to the Transitioning Churches Thread. Go to the very bottom of this thread and go to the next page. Scroll down to the 7th row to ‘Step 6-Dealing with Opposition’. Start reading. You probably are not going to want to stop reading. After you have read this, pick and choose whatever you want to read. I would suggest for starters, stay with the Transitioning thread and read that. When I first found this site, I couldn’t stop reading. It all started adding up. Let me know if you need more help in getting to this. Just a note…Dan Southerland is the author of the book, ‘Transitioning-Leading Your Church Through Change’ and also the President and Owner of Transitioning, Inc. These seminars are held around the country and at Saddleback. The book and business are endorsed by Rick Warren, obviously. He wrote the foreword for the book. I cannot stress enough how much reading Transitioning by Dan Southerland and The Purpose Driven Church would aid in your understanding of what is happening. This website I have just provided will too.
bob barker said...
"every1 ignore the above post, it is very long and boring and is a waste of your time!"
Barker...don't you wish! Careful...you are about to tell us which door you are behind...
Thanks IMA for the references.
pinker socks said...
"ima- thank you for your post. I hope that more people will have their eyes opened."
Thank YOU!
pinker socks also said, "I tried to read PDL and I couldn't get past the firt chapter."
Response: This is one of the problems pinker socks in that the book alone is only a part of the problem. It goes way, way beyond the book. However I would want you to read it and I would want you to read The Purpose Driven Church. But the one book that I read that truly showed me so much was Transitioning by Dan Southerland. The foreward is by Rick Warren. Dan Southerland has workshops at Saddleback on how to transition an older church to the purpose driven church...LIKE BELLEVUE! They highjack your church! I know a lady who attended one of these conferences and she said it was terrible. They literally tell you how to get rid of people from your church that they don't want there any longer!!! Sound familiar??? Get James Sundquist book, Who's Driving the Purpose Driven Church and compare scriptural teaching to Rick Warren's baloney! I forget...I think it is eight twelve or thirteen different translations he uses in his book, PDL, and paraphrases himself...and does this to get his own meaning across to you...not God's message, but his. Go read Saddleback's bylaws and constitution...see for yourself. Who owns Saddleback? Go to Bob DeWaay's webite and follow along his discernment ministry tool and follow along with PDL. He compares scripture with what Warren uses...it is incredible. While you are in DeWaay's website, go to the audio section and download his Redifining Christianity audios...listen to them at your own convenience. I read the book. It is one of the best out there...and the one Suzanne Sataline mentions in the Wall Street Journal in her article about my husband, me and our former church. I called Lifeway to see if they carried this wonderful book by Bob DeWaay and received an email back tell me that they did not, and the reason they did not was because in was in conflict with Rick Warren. Duh? So...let us not stop the cash cow from filling the pockets of Lifeway, the Southern Baptist Convention, Rick Warren, Fox News, and Rupert Murdoch! Doesn't matter if it is Biblically correct or not...got to keep that cash flow coming. Money is the bottom line in all of this. Money and power. Jesus Christ got lost in the shuffle along the way somewhere.
So...thank you so much pinker socks. Research all of this; look up the websites I listed in my longer post; read the books I have mentioned; and if you want more...email me. I have it. I have dedicated my life to Jesus Christ in testing the spirits...I don't take too kindly in people offended Him. I am happy He gave me the opportunity to stand for Him and would not hesitate for one second to do it all over again. It is painful sometimes, but who am I...who are we...to shun pain. Look what He did for us!
Ima
According to Time Magazine, Rick Warren is this nations so called "top pastor " ...or " America's Pastor "
Perhaps so...but...this is a judgment against America, not a blessing.
Hmmm,,,,
Rick Warren promotes the antichrist new age mystical" message praphrase " by mystic Eugene Peterson.
Rick Warren endorses Dan Southerlands book detailing how to " transition " aka ..." steal and covertly lead away " an established Church into the Unbiblical morass of Peter Drucker and Church growth gurus such as Hybels and Schuller...et al.
Rick Warren promotes a global peace plan ....in the name of Jesus ...
When it was Jesus Himself...who proclaimed ...
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Matthew 10;34 KJV
So.... Rick is here to do exactly what Jesus declared He was NOT here to do ...
Just WICH " Jesus " is Rick Warren following ?
Nuff said...
at least for this old warrior of the cross.
I would rather be DIVIDED...with Jesus Christ and His true Brothers and Sisters....and separated from error , and false prophets like Rick Warren...than to be called loving, unified , and thus an enemy of My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ ...
To be united with men like Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, and the thousands of Purposedriven drones and pastoral sycophants in doctrinal deception, error, and outright spiritual compromise , coupled with all of their arrogant lies and self-serving agendas is just a pill I prefer to leave in the poison bottle.
But hey, ..that's me...I'm silly that way.
I never much cared for re-run of the Tower of Babel or the fires and suffering in eternal hell much anyway.
( shrug )
Piglet said, "There was much wrong with this sermon - of course the fact that UNITY at the expense of TRUTH was never God's intent should be a NO-BRAINER."
Hi Piglet...I think the word 'unity' means different things to different people. My new and improved definition after having been subjected to the 'elite' leadership in my former church is 'everybody coming to one accord as the leadership selects'. My definition was always simply 'everybody getting along, unification'.
So, as many terms have changed in the PD/CGM trend, this probably has taken on new meaning as well. I hear terms now I never used to hear in relating to church such as, on campus, off campus, unchurched, seekers, seeker-friendly, church growth movement, purpose driven, etc. etc. Lindon introduced us to a link just recently that I took advantage of and read. It is without doubt the best on unity that I have read. Again, it is by Bob DeWaay and the link is right here. Do yourselves a great service and read this. I printed it off.
"Rick Warren promotes the antichrist new age mystical" message praphrase " by mystic Eugene Peterson."
And the NLT. If you are using a translation of a translation then you MUST find out what the author believes because it is a translation of a translation of what some guy thinks it means.
Peterson did NOT translate from the original hebrew or greek.
Don,
did you fly a cessna 172 back in the 1970's? I flew with Don in a 172 to mid-state for coffee once, thought it might be you.
Brothers and Sisters,
I just wrote you a long response and the whole thing is out there in cyberspace and did not make it to the blog. All I have here when I returned is a blank screen and red letters which say "required field must not be blank".
The evil one who has the power of the air must be trying to hinder me.
What I had said was that I have not yet read the links but have now got two full pages of notes of what you all have said here on the blog regarding PDL and your experiencing ridiculously abusive treatment in your own churches. You may not hear from me for awhile as I take time to "study up" on this THING.
Ima, I am thinking right now that maybe the Lord is preparing me to live in that Minneapolis suburb so I can join the battle with Bob DeWaay. I saw that the name of his church is Twin Cities Fellowship. (I think.)
Thank you, Jesus, for not leaving me in the dark but including me as one of your faithful followers. Amen.
Dee
Carol T. said...
"libertyinchrist, lindon, ima, and others sounding the alarm - hang in there.
Just wanted you to know that at least one in "lurkland" shares your belief concerning the PDL/PDC/emergent/humanist/mysticism..movement which is gaining so much momentum."
Oh my Carol T....this is music to my ears. You are truly playing my song!
It also breaks my heart that so many I used to have such respect for have fallen in the emergent trap of mysticism...the new age, and any selection of heresies out there today. All those medieval rituals have truly become the highways of so many in their search for God. It is truly nauseous. The labyrinths, the centering prayer...etc. Lord help us!
How refreshing it is for me to know there are those like yourself out there who can share in the crusade against the satanic/demonic attack against our Holy Father. Thank you for taking the time to research...study to show thyself approved. Please share the information with others.
Thanks again...
Ima
Wow - deep thought going on here today. I hope you don't mind the interrruption.
Could take a quick minute and pray for a friend of mine? She has been missing since last week and no one knows where she went. Her husband has a domestic violence history against her and I just dont know what happened to her. They have an 11 month old son. For those of you in Memphis, she has been on the news lately. For others, just pray for Rica.
Thanks!
karen
2006huldah said, "
Ima, I am thinking right now that maybe the Lord is preparing me to live in that Minneapolis suburb so I can join the battle with Bob DeWaay. I saw that the name of his church is Twin Cities Fellowship. (I think.)
Thank you, Jesus, for not leaving me in the dark but including me as one of your faithful followers. Amen."
Dee...I lost a long post myself recently. It is a little disheartening. I learned to copy it before trying to get in posted. Then if it is lost, you can just copy it back in there. :) Sometimes I will use Microsoft Word to write it out and then copy and paste it from there. Like Rick Warren says, "Whatever works!" (I can't believe I said that!) Yuck! :)
I am not sure of the name of Bob DeWaay's church, but Twin Cities rings a bell for some reason. I envy you a little in that thought. But I don't envy the cold weather. :) I believe Ingrid Schuelter lives in that area too? She is with VCY radio and used to be with Slice of Laodicea. It now is Christian Research Network, but is under the direction of Ken Silva. Still very good.
It is wonderful to know that you are not in the dark! And that you are a faithful follower. I want everybody to see it!
Bob Dewaays' Church is called
Twin Cities Fellowship
the url is http://www.twincitiesfellowship.com
correction :
The url is
http://www.twincityfellowship.com/
Don, I know it's hard to catch every post, but I asked you some questions a couple of days ago and I haven't seen an answer from you. Consequently, let me ask them again; I quote myself (and quote myself quoting yourself) thusly, and like so:
DON said...
When Jesus met the devil in the desert, the devil mocked and scoffed at Jesus , imploring Him to "prove" Himself .
Jesus...who knew quite well that "dialogue " with the accuser was of no spiritual effect, never once answered the devil with anything but ...
IT IS WRITTEN
Bottom Line...
Never answer a devil or one of his accusers with a defense of self ..
answer them with THE SWORD of THE SPIRIT .
The Holy WORD of GOD THE FATHER.
Never, ever, ever , "dialogue "...with the accuser.
Amen
I must ask, Don. I must.
From your post up there, it appears as if anyone who disagrees with you and yours is either:
1) Satan. (And no, I'm not referring to Miroslav Satan of the New York Islanders.)
2) A demon, or "a devil." (And no, I'm not referring to the New Jersey Devils.)
3) Someone under the volitional control of Satan. (And no, I'm not referring to hockey fans in general.)
Are one, or all, of those three options what you intended to communicate?
--Mike
1:09 PM, February 26, 2007
Hope to hear from you soon.
--Mike
Psalm 37
The Insecurity of the Wicked
A Psalm of David.
1 Fret not thyself because of evildoers,
neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass,
and wither as the green herb.
3 Trust in the LORD, and do good;
so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.
4 Delight thyself also in the LORD;
and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.
5 Commit thy way unto the LORD;
trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.
6 And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light,
and thy judgment as the noonday.
7 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him:
fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way,
because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.
8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath:
fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.
9 For evildoers shall be cut off:
but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be:
yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; Mt. 5.5
and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
12 The wicked plotteth against the just,
and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.
13 The Lord shall laugh at him:
for he seeth that his day is coming.
14 The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow,
to cast down the poor and needy,
and to slay such as be of upright conversation.
15 Their sword shall enter into their own heart,
and their bows shall be broken.
16 A little that a righteous man hath
is better than the riches of many wicked.
17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken:
but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.
18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright:
and their inheritance shall be for ever.
19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time:
and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
20 But the wicked shall perish,
and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs:
they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
21 The wicked borroweth, and payeth not again:
but the righteous showeth mercy, and giveth.
22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth;
and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.
23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD:
and he delighteth in his way.
24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down:
for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.
25 I have been young, and now am old;
yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken,
nor his seed begging bread.
26 He is ever merciful, and lendeth;
and his seed is blessed.
27 Depart from evil, and do good;
and dwell for evermore.
28 For the LORD loveth judgment,
and forsaketh not his saints;
they are preserved for ever:
but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
29 The righteous shall inherit the land,
and dwell therein for ever.
30 The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom,
and his tongue talketh of judgment.
31 The law of his God is in his heart;
none of his steps shall slide.
32 The wicked watcheth the righteous,
and seeketh to slay him.
33 The LORD will not leave him in his hand,
nor condemn him when he is judged.
34 Wait on the LORD, and keep his way,
and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land:
when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.
35 I have seen the wicked in great power,
and spreading himself like a green bay tree.
36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not:
yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.
37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright:
for the end of that man is peace.
38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together:
the end of the wicked shall be cut off.
39 But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD:
he is their strength in the time of trouble.
40 And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them:
he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them,
because they trust in him.
"Could take a quick minute and pray for a friend of mine? "
Karen, consider it done. Grace and Peace through Jesus Christ.
terry smith said: "Petition was a dismal failure. Goal 2000, signatures 408.
Tim, you said the Lord laid that petition on your heart and you were directed by the Holy Spirit. Let the FACTS speak for themselves."
First, who are you to say whether or not the Spirit laid that on Tim's heart? 408 signatures is a failure? Wasn't it you who said there are like 100-200 disgruntled members tops? So the fact that the goal was 2000 and there were 408...that speaks to the fact that the Spirit wasn't involved?..I suppose the Trinity is really a quartet and you're the fourth person, if you're qualified to make that statement.
1 Samuel 16:7 "The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."
Isaiah 55: 8-9 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."
Psalm 50:21 "...you thought that I was altogether like you. But I will rebuke you and accuse you to your face."
God measures things quite differently, terry.
Karen, in the words of Father Tim of the Mitford series, "consider it done."
Isn't it wonderful that the petition had twice as many signatures as Terry thought it would? What a blessing!
Karen: How about I take a long minute and pray for you friend?
Thanks for the reminder about Scion...I need to add him to my permanent prayer list.
Consider it done....
:)
I remember the story of a missionary who spent many years in the country that God sent him. In all the years that he spent in this country only one soul was brought to the Lord. According to Terry Smith this man surely wasted his time. Only one soul saved? Praise God this dear missionary didn't depend on numbers to dictate where he would serve our Lord.
Tim, Thank you for giving us a chance to voice our concerns in the petition.
I remember the story of a missionary who spent many years in the country that God sent him. In all the years that he spent in this country only one soul was brought to the Lord."
Hudson Taylor. He measured being Born Again very differently than we do in the American church today. The man is a study in perserverance of the saints.
concerned: thanks for reminding us of scion! And we must remember David Browns son who is also going over soon.
As my 6 year old says: Mommy let's pray for the whole world!
rest said...
I remember the story of a missionary who spent many years in the country that God sent him. In all the years that he spent in this country only one soul was brought to the Lord. According to Terry Smith this man surely wasted his time. Only one soul saved? Praise God this dear missionary didn't depend on numbers to dictate where he would serve our Lord.
Tremendous story.
Horrible analogy.
If a petition isn't about garnering the force of numbers, then what is it about?
Bonus question: What is 429 minus 126?
And Don, I'm still hoping for a response.
--Mike
Luke 15:10
Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
God's measuring stick is wayyyyy
different than pride filled men.
Isaiah 55:9
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
I have to say that some of the demagoguery and diatribes here are scary. NOW, not only is Rick Warren on the "road to damnation", but included as his traveling companions are David Jeremiah, Charles Swindoll (big Warren supporter), James Dobson, and according to the warped and sick thinking of some of these self-appointed, self-righteous, purity police and "chicken-little" bellowers, how can you not include Dr. Rogers? He endorsed Rick also. I'm just saying. Your logic fails you at that point.
May the great work of evangelism that Rick and Saddleback are doing continue even as the empty shouts of the "again'rs" rant.
Does Don Quixote ring any bells out there for you?
2 Thess 1:
7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
11Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,
12in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
How lucky the church is to have such narrow-minded, pharisees with us who, though Dr Stanley, Dr Swindoll, Dr. Dobson, Dr Rogers, Dr. P. Patterson, Dr. J. Graham, Dr. F Page, and Dr Rogers and many more all men of God who have devoted their lives to the study and the teaching of same are under this cloud of delusion and mesmerizing spell of the Warrenites and yet, little ole you and the other bitter demagogues continue to bless us with your peculiar enlightenment - oh, I know it is the WORD. But, does that mean these men don't know that word?
You are the reason that rightly or wrongly, the lost world sees Christians as restrained, uptight, repressed - people less likely to celebrate the life Jesus is giving us than to wag your fingers in disapproval.
Warren will be known as a heroe of the faith along with the men mentioned above and your small-minded, self-righteous thinking will be trampled underfoot the great movement of the church that these men are leading by following the TRUTH - JESUS!!
SOLA CHRISTOS!!
truthbetold :
Your blogger information shows you find Catholic mystic Brennan Mannings book a " favorite "of yours.
In Ragamuffin Gospel , Catholic mystic Brennan Manning favorably quotes mystic author Alan Jones...who wrote " Re-imagining Christianity ....in Re-imagining Christianity, Alan Jones reveals his open contempt for the atoning death of Jesus Christ on the cross for lost sinners ..when he writes;
"The Church's fixation on the death of Jesus as the universal saving act must end, and the place of the cross must be reimagined in Christian faith. Why? Because of the cult of suffering and the vindictive God behind it" (p. 132). "
Truth be told..
Your abominations are showing.
DON said...
Luke 15:10
Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
God's measuring stick is wayyyyy
different than pride filled men.
Isaiah 55:9
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
5:26 PM, February 28, 2007
So, am I not getting a response?
--Mike
P.S.: Don, just because a book is someone "favorite" doesn't mean that someone endorses everything written in the book. Perhaps you could ask your friend if that's the case before remarking about "abominations"?
1st Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1st Corinthians 1;23
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
Galatians 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
don,
ever hear a 70's quartet in your church with individual initials JW, VE, LF, LF?
DON said...
1st Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
6:14 PM, February 28, 2007
DON said...
1st Corinthians 1;23
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
6:19 PM, February 28, 2007
DON said...
Galatians 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
6:39 PM, February 28, 2007
Ah. I see.
You won't answer a straight question with a straight answer, but you will use the Bible in a misguided attempt to injure those Christians with whom you disagree.
Ever use them evangelistically, Don?
--Mike
Don,
Again, folks like you are the reason that men of God like those I mentioned above are having an impact and men like yourself are being left behind to "tilt at your windmills". You reminded me of the "Chicken Little" alarmists of the early 1970's in the church who saw the anti-christ behind every tree. Your nonsensical and judgemental rantings are truly an embarrassment to the church. I know better than to engage in debate with those like you, because your mind is as closed as a vault door and your heart is as hard as a granite stone, but, please, please, please stop castigating these men of God.
As to my "abominations"...I will stand with the likes of the men above and I will gladly be known in this case by those who would criticize me and wear that as a badge of honor for my King Jesus - who, I believe looks at Stanley, Swindoll, Rogers, Jeremiah, and Warren and says, Well, done good and faithful servants.
Don, your writings display a stark contrast to the sweetness of the stream of Jesus which flows with grace and compassion.
Hey Don,
abomination - a person who is loathsome or disgusting.
This is the definition for abomination found in the dictionary. Being that you are the clear-thinking, wordsmith that you are, and knowing that not only verbosity, but also exactness are surely important to you, exactly how are my "abominations" showing?
truthBtold said...
Hey Don,
abomination - a person who is loathsome or disgusting.
This is the definition for abomination found in the dictionary. Being that you are the clear-thinking, wordsmith that you are, and knowing that not only verbosity, but also exactness are surely important to you, exactly how are my "abominations" showing?
Why would you pick only one of many definitions to the word? Abomination refers to things, acts, beliefs, etc., not just people. By limiting the definition, you are distorting the meaning of the earlier poster.
Well, It sure went quiet around here. I guess I'll take off to commune witht the mystics, and hang out with my abominations.
Thanks Don, it has been both edifying and enlightening....NOT!!
Astounded,
Thanks for the help. I admire your willingness to clarify ole Don's judgemental ramblings. However, you don't know that was his intent do you ? And in light of his postings prior to and in addition to the one directed to me, he was pontificating on the errors and fallacious beliefs of PEOPLE, I would not be so quick to assume his intent wasn't just as I proposed.
But, really thanks for the help.
Hi BBC,
To you who have been here been here I just want to say a little something, I hope you would do it. but first I want to let you all that I really love you all with a holy love. I do not want you all to be hurt by BBC. don't listen to those who attacking you, they hate you. I used to go there years ago. I speak to you all in love it would really be better that you all just leave BBC to go and start a new church will be a good thing to do or just go to any small church just please do not stay there they just do Ezekiel 34 to people, they do not care for you they do not love you in sincerity. They speak lies and have people who speak lies for them. you can not change them I can not change them. Listen to me they do not want to hear the truth from you they do not care. they do believe a liar through. that is a proven fact. If you try to tell them this is not the way of Jesus they will yes it is. I told you before they are mean. They have not changed, Since 2003.
This is what I wanted to tell you before this site if it were closed that I love you all with a holy love. I do pray for BBC. leave them before they hurt you more. I do not want you hurt.
What do you think are the top 3 issues facing Bellevue Baptist Church today? Give your reasons.
1. It’s too big.
2. The size of congregation keeps its members from really knowing each other.
3. It’s not possible to truly love someone you don’t know.
imo
faithnhope,
Good points..but there's an aggravating factor to those three..and it helps perpetuate them...BBC is run like a company..a business...cold and sterile...it claims to want to reach the world, yet it cares little for those already there...those who come here and bark the loudest about the need to focus on the gospel display the most hatred for their own churchmates...they come here for the sole purpose of taunting, ridiculing, and doing anything they can to discourage anyone who dares to buck the "system". You know who you are...I don't have to name names. Enjoy yourselves while you can.
NBBC
I arrive at just one problem/solution
Install democratic processes that are all inclusive. Restore congregational rule.
When thoes in authority say, 'trust us', and then expect unity from the body, they need to understand that thoes in authority are called to trust the body. The twelve presented their problem and suggested solution to the multitude for their pleasure. Acts 6:5 When they needed a replacement for Judas they appointed (nominated) two equally qualified men to become an apostle. They prayed, 'Lord, you know the hearts of men, show us which one of these two men will replace Judas.' Then they cast lots (voted) and Matthias was selected. Acts 1:24-26
Every member of the body has an expression and thoes in authority must believe that every expression has a meaning. The Church is not a mad mob but a growing body under the direction of authority. I Cor. 14:10 To suppress this expression is equal to suppressing the Spirit because the Lord gives the expression and even more so to the humble. James 4:6
Could take a quick minute and pray for a friend of mine? She has been missing since last week and no one knows where she went.
Karen,
I am so heartbroken to read this. I don't think I ever truly realized how evil wife abuse is until I met Faith J. I pray that the Lord will pour out his grace on Rica and her child.
Lord, let your ears be attentive to my plea.
HP
aog,
In my experience, the opposite of love isn't hate. It's cold, uncaring indifference.
I've seen more than my fill of it.
faithnhope: You are right. I learned a long time ago that love and hate are very closely related because of the passion that is present with both. The opposite of love is indifference. Like....go somewhere else kind of statement..... :(
faithnhope,
Perhaps "despise" would have been more accurate than hate..to despise something means to hold it has having little or no value..when Nathan confronted David, his words spoke volumes..."Thus says the LORD: 'Why did you despise my word and do what was evil in my sight...."
Don,
Please make your profile viewable or your comments will be deleted.
Thanks,
NBBCOF
aog,
Agreed.
David showed no regard for God in his circumstance, even after God had blessed him in so many ways.
I wonder how much we have in common with David?
watchinghisstory...
Then they cast lots (voted) and Matthias was selected. Acts 1:24-26
Watching,
This is close, but not quite correct. The 11 did cast lots, but they were not voting. They were submitting to God.
The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.
Prov. 16:33
Direct Quotes from Brennan Manning-author of The Ragamuffin Gospel, Abba’s Child, Above All, and Signature of Jesus.
"This is a typical patriarchal notion of God. He is the God of Noah who sees people deep in sin, repents that He made them and resolves to destroy them. He is the God of the desert who sends snakes to bite His people because they murmured against Him. He is the God of David who practically decimates a people ... He is the God who exacts the last drop of blood from His Son, so that His just anger, evoked by sin, may be appeased. This God whose moods alternate between graciousness and fierce anger, This God does not exist." -From Above All, Brennan Manning pg. 58
“I am deeply distressed by what I only can call in our Christian culture the idolatry of the Scriptures. For many Christians, the Bible is not a pointer to God but God himself. In a word [it’s] bibliolatry. I develop a nasty rash around people who speak as if mere scrutiny of its pages will reveal precisely how God thinks and precisely what God wants” -From Signature of Jesus, Brennan Manning, pp. 188-89.(page 174 in a later edition)
What!!!I am shocked at the responses!!!!
especially the one from faithnhope:
Who is there? Who am I talking to???? do you all who have been here since the begining understand these two questions I just asked?? I hope someone out there does understand everything I did say, in the last post and this.
1 Corinthians 13
Love
1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast,
it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mt 22:39 - Show Context
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mt 24:12 - Show Context
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Lu 6:35 - Show Context
But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Joh 17:26 - Show Context
And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
Ro 13:8 - Show Context
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Ro 13:10 - Show Context
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Ga 5:22 - Show Context
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Col 1:4 - Show Context
Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
1Th 3:12 - Show Context
And the L-rd make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:
Peace to you
lindon,
Your quote is quite a bit out of context, but I agree with Manning. The scripures are not God, they are the revelation of God.
pase graphe theopneustos.
faithnhope
You got it right and said it better than I.
faithnhope said...
What do you think are the top 3 issues facing Bellevue Baptist Church today? Give your reasons.
1. It’s too big.
Is there an upper limit for congregation size?
2. The size of congregation keeps its members from really knowing each other.
All of the members cannot know all of the other members, yes. But the same can be said of very un-mega-churches (did I just invent a new word?). If one attends a church of 500 people, one cannot "really know" all the other 499 members.
3. It’s not possible to truly love someone you don’t know.
imo
I love all of you, yet I don't know you.
:)
--Mike
Romans 9
14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
The thing that frightens me is this author is followed by alot of youth ministers. Please check with your youth and see if they have read or been taught with Brennan Manning materials.
Mike wrote,
I love all of you, yet I don't know you.
Mike,
You overstate the obvious. Thank you for blessing me with your service over the years.
Hope
This was posted a few minutes after I posted my first post at 7:49 PM, February 28, 2007.
I took notice of # 3 on the list below.faithnhope said...
What do you think are the top 3 issues facing Bellevue Baptist Church today? Give your reasons.
1. It’s too big.
2. The size of congregation keeps its members from really knowing each other.
3. It’s not possible to truly love someone you don’t know.
imo
7:56 PM, February 28, 2007
hope wrote: lindon,
Your quote is quite a bit out of context, but I agree with Manning. The scripures are not God, they are the revelation of God.
pase graphe theopneustos. =
Scripture is inspired by God? Isn't the above something like that?
Anyway, who said scripture was not the revelation of God?
But how do you and Brendan get around this:
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
And this:
14And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
I am curious, how can we make an 'idol' of scritpure. How else can we know God without scripture. anything else is 'my experience'. How else can the Holy Spirit teach us if not through scripture...unless you are Benny Hinn, of course. :o)
Here is the quote again taken from the book and trust me, he does not go on and make this statement ok with anything else he writes. How could he? I still cannot get over 'Bibliolitry'. Anyone here bowing down to their Bibles? Or just prayerfully reading scriptures?
“I am deeply distressed by what I only can call in our Christian culture the idolatry of the Scriptures. For many Christians, the Bible is not a pointer to God but God himself. In a word [it’s] bibliolatry. I develop a nasty rash around people who speak as if mere scrutiny of its pages will reveal precisely how God thinks and precisely what God wants” -From Signature of Jesus, Brennan Manning, pp. 188-89.(page 174 in a later edition)
God Bless You NBBCOF...
God Bless You Lindon
God Bless You allofgrace
God Bless You imaresistor
Keep on earnestly contending.
NBBCOF, You may delete my posts.
Rules are Rules.
Maranatha...
Don
NBBCOF, You may delete my posts.
Rules are Rules.
Maranatha...
Don
Maranatha, Don! We have been blessed to know you this short time.
ezekiel said...
faithnhope,
"Your quote is quite a bit out of context, but I agree with Manning. The scripures are not God, they are the revelation of God.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Is your Bible the WORD or not? if not, I suggest you get a new one.
Actually, the Word as referred to in John 1:1 does not refer to the Bible. It refers to Jesus. It becomes clear as you read the chapter further.
don,
A professional victim such as yourself might not welcome this suggestion, but why don't you just check the box that makes your profile visible? It's not rocket science...
For any of you bloggers out there who are tired (like myself), here are some encouraging words.
Hebrews 12:3
Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.
thanks, socwork. I needed that.
zeke,
There is no new Bible. We no longer have access to the autographa, and our modern translations are only inerrant to the extent that they contain the autographs.
The Bible is not the end, it's the means to the end which is the eternal, everlasting God.
It MUST be interpreted, in the cultural, literary, and rhetorical sense. Bible interpretation is not something that is taught in 21st century churches, and that is the biggest problem with the world today.
socwork and oc, my friends....good to see you!
Thanks socwork...I know I needed that. Ho ho's just aren't working anymore....
God never promised it would be easy but we know He is with us each step of the way.
hey,concerned. Glad to see you too. Missed ya'll when my computer went 'south', so to speak. By the way, I still don't have my new car! What about that socwork Winfrey, anyway?
faithnhope wrote: There is no new Bible. We no longer have access to the autographa, and our modern translations are only inerrant to the extent that they contain the autographs.
The Bible is not the end, it's the means to the end which is the eternal, everlasting God.
It MUST be interpreted, in the cultural, literary, and rhetorical sense. Bible interpretation is not something that is taught in 21st century churches, and that is the biggest problem with the world today. "
faithnhope, Do you believe that God is totally Sovereign? Do you believe that there is NOT one single maverick molecule on earth or in the heavens that is NOT under His control at this very moment?
hi friends :)
I needed to hear that too (Heb 12:3).
oc, sorry I let ya down about the car. Forgive me? ;)
OK Socwork, I forgive you. :)
ezekiel said...
astounded,
Have you ever heard a preacher call a Bible "the perfect Word of God"?
How does Jesus speak to you? How does he comfort you in times of distress? How does he tell you that he loves you? How does hewrite his commandments and statutes on your heart?
I really do not understand the context of your questions. You used John 1:1 to refer to the use of the phrase the Word as the Bible. I was just pointing that your interpretation was not correct. The Word clearly refers to Jesus.
Jesus speaks to me and comforts me through my personal relationship with him. I do agree that reading the Bible is a part of my relationship with Him, but it is only one vehicle.
"Jesus speaks to me and comforts me through my personal relationship with him. I do agree that reading the Bible is a part of my relationship with Him, but it is only one vehicle."
Yikes. That is scary. How are you for certain it is the Holy Spirit speaking and not...well...you know....if you are not in the Word constantly?
Scriptures tell us the heart is deceitful. We cannot trust it:
Jeremiah 17
9The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?
(amos breaks silence)
to nbbcof posters,
I have posted here on and off(mostly on) for a couple of months.
I primarily have posted scripture: sometimes dealing with a topic of discussion, other times providing scripture that has been referenced or partially quoted, and at other times just scripture that would glorify God and encourage hearts. I have tried not to post opinions, though I have posted a few. I have had no agenda but a hope to add 'salt and light' on occasion. And it has been nice to make light and humourous exchanges with a few of you on occasion.
There are times when things are peaceful, but there are times when things become heated, and rancor and strife is evident. It is obvious that there is much passion and conviction among you, but it often leads to comments that are later 'apologized for' (though not always, of course) and many times things are said that are probably better left unsaid. (Proverbs 29:11 A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards.)
This is not an indictment of anyone but just an observant opinion. I in no way say this belittle or make light of your current situation. But it has become a difficult task to read and not be affected in some way, especially when discussions go south and honest debate becomes open argument.
Your entire situation is fascinating and saddening all at once, and I do sympathize with 'all' involved and affected. As far as resolution, who can say what our Lord will do? I sincerily wonder 'how can two walk together lest they be agreed'? That is as far as I will go in my opinions.
I bid you all peace and grace and strength! This will be my last post, so I leave you with this scripture:
1st Chronicles 29:11 Thine, O LORD, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all.
12 Both riches and honour come of thee, and thou reignest over all; and in thine hand is power and might; and in thine hand it is to make great, and to give strength unto all.
13 Now therefore, our God, we thank thee, and praise thy glorious name.
Blessings
Amos
Heb 13:3
Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body.
lindon said...
How are you for certain it is the Holy Spirit speaking and not...well...you know....if you are not in the Word constantly?
Because I AM in the Word constantly. What soes that have to do with my personal realtionship with Christ. The Bible refers to walking in Christ. That means you should follow Christ in all your actions, not just when you have a Bible in your hand.
Astounded said...
faithnhope said...
I implore you to investigate the topic of bibliolatry.
Are you saying that anyone that believes that the Bible is the inerrant word of God is guilty of being a bibliolater?
"Have you ever considered taking a seminary class on hermeneutics? I don't ask this question flippantly. Most of what we learn in church today is eisegesis (finding what we want in the Scripture) instead of exegesis (discovering what God's word really says)."
Sweetie, You sound like me when I came home from my first semester at college.
Would you explain to me how a poor ignorant Romanian peasant who can barely read can open up the Word of God and understand it? In context?
See, I have met her. And many more like her.
Amos,
So long, my friend. We'll miss you. Blessings.
How are you for certain it is the Holy Spirit speaking and not...well...you know....if you are not in the Word constantly?
Because I AM in the Word constantly. What soes that have to do with my personal realtionship with Christ. The Bible refers to walking in Christ. That means you should follow Christ in all your actions, not just when you have a Bible in your hand. "
Sorry! I misunderstood your first comment on this. I thought you meant scripture is only ONE vehicle to a relationship with Christ.
Ezekiel....there goes that "feeling" thing......scripture is unchanging, regardless of how we feel.
Hebrews 4:12: For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division od soul and spirit, and of joint and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Unchanging.
faithnhope,
where did you go to seminary?
Love ya, Amos. Thanks.
(offline, too)
thanks for your forgiveness, oc.
:)
Amos: Thank you and God Bless You.
faithnhope,
do you except the gender neutral bible?
Socwork,
You got it, friend!
Lindon said...
How are you for certain it is the Holy Spirit speaking and not...well...you know....if you are not in the Word constantly?
Because I AM in the Word constantly. What soes that have to do with my personal realtionship with Christ. The Bible refers to walking in Christ. That means you should follow Christ in all your actions, not just when you have a Bible in your hand. "
Sorry! I misunderstood your first comment on this. I thought you meant scripture is only ONE vehicle to a relationship with Christ.
No problem. After reading my post to Ez I can see how it could be misconstrued.
"lindon,
Anything you count on for salvation is your god.
I implore you to investigate the topic of bibliolatry.
Idolizing anything other than God himself is idolatry, even if it's the Bible.
Grace,
Hope Patterson "
If I have given you the impression I worship leather and onion paper, I beg your forgiveness.
really offline now....:o) had to clear up a major misunderstanding.
Blessings to all!
Good night lindon!
faithnhope said...
astounded,
Are you saying that anyone that believes that the Bible is the inerrant word of God is guilty of bibliolater?
No, but when someone elevates the words themselves over the sense of the words they are on thin ice. The original languages contained over 11000 different words. The KJV contains about 6000 different words. Quite a bit was lost in the translation, and if we insist on a wooden translation then we're missing the point.
So, in order to understand the true meaning of the Bible I must be a versed scholar in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek?
noname:
faithnhope,
do you except the gender neutral bible?
The Message: I reject!!!
The NLT: I reject (less emphatically).
The TNiv: I accept.
faithnhope,
I know I'm repeating myself, but I'm doing it in case you missed my post to you.
Where did you go to seminary, if you don't mind saying?
Question asked: So, in order to understand the true meaning of the Bible I must be a versed scholar in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek?
I thought that was what the Holy Spirit was left here to do- To show us the meaning from God's Word.
faithnhope said...
NO!!! If you want to understand it in its original language, of course you should study the ancient languages. Still, since we don't have the original copies, you'll still be missing out. Don't forget that God in His providence has protected His word for us. We stand on the shoulders of all who have gone before us.
I promise you, though, that God's word will reveal things in the Greek and Hebrew that are obscured in the English translations.
I do not mean to put words in your mouth but the way I read the above statements lead me to believe that you feel that the true Word of God has been lost in ANY translation. If this is the case, then God's Word has been obscured from us. Furthermore, if any part of God's Word has been obscured, then ALL of God's Word has been obscured from us. And that includes the original texts since many of them are lost.
Thanks faithnhope, I'm very familiar with DTS. Did you like it?
socwork,
I loved DTS. It was so beautiful there in the shadow of downtown Dallas. If you're familiar with it, did you know that that have the same statue of Jesus washing Peter's feet that Bellevue has in the courtyard?
HP
a:
WHEW!!! I'm exhausted after tonight. As I've alluded to, our modern translations are inerrant only to the extent that they contain the autographs. For all intents and purposes, however, they do contain them thanks to modern literary criticism. I don't worry about picking up the NASB or the NIV and reading eroneous passages.
My beliefs about scripture coincide (thanks to my teachers, I'm sure) with the Chicago Statement of Biblical Inerrancy, which I reluctantly share with you at http://www.bible-researcher.com/chicago1.html
faithnhope said...
Mike wrote,
I love all of you, yet I don't know you.
Mike,
You overstate the obvious. Thank you for blessing me with your service over the years.
Hope
Well, praise God! That's the fourth-nicest thing anyone's said to me today, the top three being from my wife and children...
--Mike
Amos,
I wish you wouldn't leave! Thank you for your encouragement and wisdom.....and for the times you broke your silence. I will always have my own picture of you in my mind and smile when I think of you. You have been a blessing!
Faithnhope said...
My beliefs about scripture coincide (thanks to my teachers, I'm sure) with the Chicago Statement of Biblical Inerrancy, which I reluctantly share with you at http://www.bible-researcher.com/chicago1.html
Wow!
You and I are in total agreement. I am shocked, though, to find someone of your (our) belief using the word bibliolatry to describe someone since that word is almost always used to describe people who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible.
Don...
God bless you
Would like you to make your profile visible and stick around. You don't have to give your identity away.
You are valuable here...
Amos...you have blessed my life.
My best...
Ima
I'm Baaaaaaaackkkkkkkk......
New Book to be released June 2007
" Faith Undone "
by Roger Oakland
Early reports on its' contents include the following:
The world is changing. So is the Christian evangelical church. There was a time—not that long ago—when the Bible was considered to be the Word of God by the majority of evangelical Christians. Now that we are well into the third millennium and the post-modern, post-Christian era, the term evangelical can mean almost anything.
What has happened? Why is this happening, and what is the future for mainstream Christianity?
In a clear and compelling manner, Faith Undone shows where the emerging church came from (its roots), how it is introducing Christians to mysticism, Catholicism and the New Age under the guise of Christian terminology. The book also unveils the truth about the coming "new reformation" that emerging church leaders are promoting.
The spiritual battle is joined.
If the "new reformation" can get rid of nutcases who are KJV-authorized only, judgemental, extremist demagogues then I say "BRING IT ON"
Your BAAACK!! Yeah, like a bad case of....enter your most humiliating malady.
Your type is an embarrassment. You are a dinosaur who has given the church of Jesus Christ a black eye for too long. Please go back into your cave, please?!!!
DON said...
I'm Baaaaaaaackkkkkkkk......
8:25 AM, March 01, 2007
Marvelous. I'm still hoping you'll answer some questions I asked you awhile back. Quoting thusly, and like so:
Don, I know it's hard to catch every post, but I asked you some questions a couple of days ago and I haven't seen an answer from you. Consequently, let me ask them again; I quote myself (and quote myself quoting yourself) thusly, and like so:
DON said...
When Jesus met the devil in the desert, the devil mocked and scoffed at Jesus , imploring Him to "prove" Himself .
Jesus...who knew quite well that "dialogue " with the accuser was of no spiritual effect, never once answered the devil with anything but ...
IT IS WRITTEN
Bottom Line...
Never answer a devil or one of his accusers with a defense of self ..
answer them with THE SWORD of THE SPIRIT .
The Holy WORD of GOD THE FATHER.
Never, ever, ever , "dialogue "...with the accuser.
Amen
I must ask, Don. I must.
From your post up there, it appears as if anyone who disagrees with you and yours is either:
1) Satan. (And no, I'm not referring to Miroslav Satan of the New York Islanders.)
2) A demon, or "a devil." (And no, I'm not referring to the New Jersey Devils.)
3) Someone under the volitional control of Satan. (And no, I'm not referring to hockey fans in general.)
Are one, or all, of those three options what you intended to communicate?
--Mike
1:09 PM, February 26, 2007
Hope to hear from you soon.
--Mike
3:39 PM, February 28, 2007
Let's hope the third time asking is successful.
--Mike
Rule #1
Never, ever, ever ...dialogue with te devil.
Rule #2
See Rule #1
Friends,
I woke up this morning under conviction of the Spirit. God hasn't revealed to me the reason, but I'm terribly familiar with the feeling.
If my posts from the last few days have offended anyone, it was not my intent. I sincerely apologize and ask your forgiveness. Lindon, Don, noname, or any lurkers who took exception to anything I said, please hear me.
I feel that since I've left Bellevue I shouldn't keep posting. In retrospect, I truly have come to believe that Bellevue is too big simply because I've never met any of you.
If any of you should ever bump into me, please introduce yourself. I'd love to sit down and share a few stories about God's goodness and grace.
If our paths never cross, all of us who are in Christ are heading to the same final destination. When the roll is called up yonder I'll be there, and I pray that you will be too.
Grace,
Hope
" h "
Welcome back Don! I would like to ask Mike a question. Do YOU think that everyone who has asked questions at bbc (causing disunity), is void of the Holy Spirit (i.e.,LOST), as we heard preached Sunday PM?
Is this Dooper Don? The mightiest pitcher the Riff-Raff has ever seen?
Hi Don,
So glad to see that you are baaaacck. :) We need all the help we can get you know. Jesus needs 'standers'.
I think the world of Roger Oakland. He is so well rehearsed on the church growth movements. Can't remember right now if he is a victim of one or not. He is so well grounded on the Bible, he can see right through these heretics and the movements. I suppose there are those who appear to be well read on the Bible, who are not. They are well read on books that are misleading them.
Welcome back...
Ima
Jeremiah 6 : 16
Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.
new reformations , emerging mergers, and mysticism afficianados are for new age apostates, no thanks..
I only "eat " barbecue..
I dont " do " barbecue
Blessings and Peace to all of my fellow Brothers and Sisters in The Lord:
May The God of all Comfort , strengthen you and guide you into ALL TRUTH.
2nd Timothy 3;16
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
The King James Version (Authorized)
Hmmmm
sorta makes you wonder why no mention of small groups, concennsus building dialogue, re-imagining Christianity, labyrinth walking , ceterring prayer, enterring the silence, or breath prayers were even mentioned once.
Hughhhhhhhhh
Very Obvious Bibliolotry verse I reckon. : )))))))
If you continue in MY WORD, then you are My disciples indeed.
( Jesus Christ )
and that's good enuf for me.
Don,
Your invective is puerile and hypocritical. Also, your posts are nonsensical. Your postings border on ludicrous and calling people the devil or an abomination really doesn't speak well of your intellect or your forensic abilities. I implore you to please crawl back into that cave and work on your drawings.
The B-I-B-L-E....
yes...That's the Book for me...
I stand alone ..
On The WORD OF GOD
The B-I-B-L-E !!!!!
Ole Donny my man,
Yesterday before you teased us with your imminent and promised departure, there were a number of inquiries to some of your suppositions and propostitions. Your silence has been deafening. It is easy to call folks names and use pejorative proclamations, but to use words to actually convey a cogent thought...now there is something that you should attempt. Oh, go ahead. I know is is scary, but face those fears and dialogue without high-handing and dismissing by calling individuals the devil or an abomination.
Look familiar ?
2 Timothy 3:1-9
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such "turn away" . 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and "never able " to come to the knowledge of "the truth". 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
Looks Familiar.... Why yes. DON, I presume.
Fortunately a true statement is true without regard to the reliability or the sagacity of the person who utters it.
Good enuf for me too Don. God bless your sweet spirit.
Nevermind those here who are trying to quiet you. They don't understand that caves are dark...and light and darkness cannot dwell together. You are light and must shine. :)The darkness is trying to extenguish your flame Don. Pay them no mind. I don't. :)Stand for Truth!!!
ima..
Rule #3 ( same or closely similar to Rule #1 and #2
Never feed the trolls
IMA
God's Richest Blessings upon you
You know the TRUTH ( JESUS )
Don...
Right!
YES...I do know the Truth!
We are on the same flight...
:)
Ima
Uh, would that be the flight to....Neverland? Or some other locale of fairy tales and myth?
If quieting Don isn't going to an option, can we at least expect him to: (1) Forego the calling of those who may not agree with him appellations such as an abomination and/or the devil, (2) add something other than malignant castigations of character?
Oh well, the scarecrow did need to make the trip to Oz. Maybe Don can go along for the trip.
2nd Corinthians 6: 14-18
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
Rhetorical question #1
What part of " no fellowship " did we not get ?
Oh...yea... I remember,.... the devil , the mystics, and Bill Hybels , Robert Schuller, and Rick Warren all said we need to " relate " to the Culture: ie: Disobey GOD and see if by disobedience to His call for separation, we might just get what we would deem ... a favorable or pragmatic outcome.
FAT CHANCE
Disobedience always brings Gods judgement , even when wrapped in the alluring robes of cultural relevancy...
Let me see if I have this right?
Don - not a member of BBC
iamaresistor - not a member of BBC
Lindon - not a member of BBC
LibertyinChrist - not a member of BBC
What? Won't the folks who know you listen to your pharisaical demagoguery?
Questions ?
Please refer to Rule #1
Yesterday it was said those men who were in agreement with and promoted Rick Warren's writings; men such as Chuck Swindoll, Charles Stanley, David Jeremiah, and yes, you would have to add Dr. Rogers because he led us at Bellevue into the study of PDL were on the "road to damnation."
Don, do you still concur with this? I know, I know... you address the devil. But, maybe some of the rest out there will get the picture
http://www.sbts.edu/MP3/fall2006/20061102macarthur.mp3
Link to a sermon John McArthur gave at the Southern Baptist Theologial Seminary back in Nov 2006. Topic: God has abandoned America
Hey Don,
You know Jesus dialogued with the devil. Don't you want to be like Jesus, Don?
Well, it's been fun. I guess I'll head out to do something that is more spiritual like walk my labyrinth while reading my PDL Manual and chanting mantras to higher powers of CGM or GCM or...oh well, whatever.
Oh VICTORY ...in JESUS
My Saviour Forever,
He sought Me ..
and Bought Me
With His redeeming Blood...
He loved ere' I knew Him..
and all My Love is due Him
He plunged me to Victory...
Beneath the cleansing flood.
All Glory and Honour to the Father for His great and prescious gift of His only Son ..The Lord Jesus Christ ..who was crushed and died in my place.
truthBtold said...
If the "new reformation" can get rid of nutcases who are KJV-authorized only, judgemental, extremist demagogues then I say "BRING IT ON"
What? Won't the folks who know you listen to your pharisaical demagoguery?
Don,
Your invective is puerile and hypocritical. Also, your posts are nonsensical. Your postings border on ludicrous and calling people the devil or an abomination really doesn't speak well of your intellect or your forensic abilities. I implore you to please crawl back into that cave and work on your drawings.
truthbtold,
How does the above match up with this?:
If quieting Don isn't going to an option, can we at least expect him to: (1) Forego the calling of those who may not agree with him appellations such as an abomination and/or the devil, (2) add something other than malignant castigations of character?
Allofgrace,
I think there is one marked difference. That being that I have not one time put anyone on the "road to damnation", called them an abomination, or the devil. I am willing to grant and, in fact, believe that Don and his ilk are believers even though I along with millions of other disagree with their judgemental rantings against an ecclesiological methodology they don't agree with.
So, I see a clear demarcation of the two.
Now, I really do have to go. See ya!
Biblica reasons the devils kids and falsely accuse and do so proudly and hypocritically, and are never able to come to the understanding of THE TRUTH.
John 8; 42-45
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
And finally...
2nd Corinthians 11 : 13-15
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, "transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ". 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Trojan horse apostates...Satans ministers ...parading as " true beleivers"
in and among the flock...
Yes..
God's Word is TRUE and reliable
ONe more thing allofgrace,
You have been a voice of reason and moderation here for the most part. Which, since Don started making such negative postings and calling dear men of God men who are on the road to damnation, I admit I have not been.
But, surely you are reticent to defend what he has said. That isn't what we should infer from your post is it. I understand your admonishment of me, but really this guy just is too much.
Psalms 12: 2
They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.
Ephesians 4: 14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.
Ephesians 6: 13
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Personal testimony: When people gave me the book PDL, I was not offended by anything I read. I was not offended by Rob Bell, Billy Hybels, Ken Blanchard, Bob Buford, Charles Stanley, Don Miller (except his politics) etc.
But when someone quoted scripture to me in context, I would get offended.
Why?
Because the Word is like a sword. It divides. It does not bring peace. It is about love but not tolerant of everything.
My offense at pure scipture was a wake up call to me. The Lord was convicting me of truth and bringing me out of following mere men. These were truths I had a hard time with. He is still convicting me of His Truth.
Grace and Peace.
Lindon
Praise God for your humble spirit and wonderful testimony to the Power of GODS WORD ..
You have brought glory to GOD and to HIS UNCHANGING WORD..
It is recorded this day in heaven that you have spoken in defense of Gods WORD..and have openly contended for THE FAITH..
I am blessed to call you Sister in Jesus Christ !!!
Maranatha
Proverbs 29:25
The fear of man bringeth a snare: but whoso putteth his trust in the LORD shall be safe.
truthbtold
I have lurked off and on these last few days. Can I just ask you a question or two?
Are you a Bellevue member?
I don't know Don but would like to discuss a phrase of his:
"concennsus building dialogue, re-imagining Christianity, labyrinth walking , ceterring prayer, enterring the silence, or breath prayers "
Regardless of any big names that may or may not be attached to any of these practices, do you believe this is part of true christianity that Jesus would be apart of or New Age infiltrating the church?
I just had a fairly long visit with another member of BBC. She mentioned the state of the church and our discussion went from there. She was discussing the empty seats and how many people had left; about how families had become divided; about the PW situation. Her take on that was that she loved PW and wife very much but she was sickened and frustrated the night the report was given. She (and many in her BSF class) currently are becoming less patient with the preaching. Isn't it funny the different "last straws" we hear about? She is getting to the end of her rope regarding the self-serving sermons. She said she wants to just tell sg to quit preaching AT people, and listen to what he is saying because it cuts both ways. She felt manipulated and talked down to Sunday night because of how thinly veiled his sermon was.
Another interesting part of our discussion was how people are looking to men for the Bible STudy and core beliefs as opposed to looking towards God and His scripture. All this to say that daily there are people questioning and searching. Don't lose heart. The Word never returns void.
Mark 8;38
Jesus Said:
Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Notice He didnt say a word about Eugene Petersons words in The Message or Brennan Mannings words in The Ragamuffin Gospel...or Rick Warrens words...in PDC...or Bill Hybels words...in the Highly Contagious Christian...
no...Jesus said...
MY WORDS
sorry wannabees....wrong Jesus
SEEK UNDERSTANDING
KNOW GOD
Daniel 11: 32-38
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. 33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. 36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. 38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
hmmmmm
god of forces....
sure sounds like new age to me.
concerned sbcer
I found your post to be very interesting. I really thought that sermon was another shot in the foot.
"She felt manipulated and talked down to Sunday night because of how thinly veiled his sermon was."
I have to wonder how many are still falling for the 'annointed' and appointed 'Man of God' nonsense that has been brandied about on this blog.
There really are people out there that believe if you question a 'pastor', you are going to hell.
It is amazing how Catholic the SBC is getting. Warren and his 'covenants', signing oaths that say you will never critisize the church or pastor, being told we are never to question 'authority'.
Words & Music: Adapted from an African-American spiritual by Charles D. Tillman,1889 Lexington, South Carolina.
Give me that old time religion,
Give me that old time religion,
Give me that old time religion,
It’s good enough for me.
It was good for Paul and Silas,
It was good for Paul and Silas,
It was good for Paul and Silas,
It’s good enough for me.
It was good for the Hebrew children.
It was good for the Hebrew children.
It was good for the Hebrew children.
It’s good enough for me.
It will make you love everybody.
It will make you love everybody.
It will make you love everybody.
It’s good enough for me.
Give me that old time religion,
Give me that old time religion,
Give me that old time religion,
It’s good enough for me.
Ok, Cakes here (dictionary.com),
I love how these pontificating people come here and demand you answer their questions. Don't jump through hoops for people who carry water for leadership they sure as heck won't cross-examine. And these, they that sidestep the most important questions regarding trust, integrity and accountability.
Do this one think before you answer: percieve the purpose of their entering this blog in the first place, then you may discern the benefit or lack thereof of an exchange.
Don't get suckered.
I have been totally lost in regard to the conversations here the last few days - I guess I'm not up on the PDC movement as I should be.
Just wanted to folks to know I'm here in case anyone wants to chat.
Thanks!
Karen
A quote from Warren
"I could take you today to a million villages ... they got a church. Or they got a synagogue. They got something. They got a house of worship. The church is the biggest organization in the world.... And I came up with a thing called the P.E.A.C.E. Plan. When Jesus sent the disciples out, he said, 'When you go into a village, you find the man of peace.' Now this person doesn't have to be a Christian.... You find the person of peace, and then you begin to do the P.E.A.C.E. Plan ... Now why am I telling this to you? Because we're going public with it this next year in 2006.... And I believe it will change the world." —Rick Warren*
Piglet says:
Sounds like the false prophet.
Hi Karen! :)
To everyone,
I seem to remember David Brown saying something to the effect of "there is more to come" re: the child abuse aspect of this ordeal.
Any updates from anyone?
"I sincerely apologize and ask your forgiveness. Lindon, Don, noname, or any lurkers who took exception to anything I said, please hear me."
No problem here, Hope. God Bless you for posting this.
Don't let those academics drown out the pure joy and truth of the Word illuminated by the teaching of the Holy Spirit.
Ivory towers can be dangerous.
Grace and Peace of our Savior
"The church is the biggest organization in the world.... "
Piglet, do you have any idea which 'church' he is talking about?
(Note: Any missionary in any country can tell you that churches of different denominations already cooperate with many things)
When Hillary becomes President, I predict this man will be an "Ambassador at Large"...for the UN. It won't be an official position. Warren can get more mileage out of never being 'official'. (i.e., Syria)
Piglet,
Rick Warren is right about one thing - the PEACE plan is changing the world, but not necessarily for the better.
BTW, did you hear about the cougar the MPD was looking for? MY neighborhood! Didn't let the dog out by herself last night! :)
karen
Piglet,
He is a false prophet.
:)
Ima
Karen,
A friend of mine said that same cougar was out years ago and it is a pet of someone in the neighborhood!
This article about Warren and Obama should clear things up for those who still think Warren is a great Christian leader. I'm sure Dr. Rogers would take issue with the direction he is going. He is really CREEPY!!!!!
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52998
I heard about this shortly after it happened. I've seen Obama on Oprah (she will campaign for him) and knew he was dangerous because he is so smooooooth. He and Warren make a likely pair.
I became suspicious of Warren after he was on Oprah because he wimped out and dressed his message in new age speak for her PC audience.
It helps me understand why Gaines felt he could get away with that donation to FUMC. Warren would have made that donation in a heartbeat!!
ATTENTION! THERE'S A NEW THREAD. PLEASE MOVE UP!
Thank you,
NBBCOF
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