What do you think are the top 3 issues facing Bellevue Baptist Church today? Give your reasons.
Many of these issues apply to the church at large as well. This book, In the Name of Purpose: Sacrificing Truth on the Altar of Unity, by Tamara Hartzell, addresses some of the problems affecting the church today. It's a free eBook available on the "Book Contents" page.
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«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 582 Newer› Newest»Greetings Dee,
Yes, but that time has past; last night was the nail in the coffin for integrity and accountability at BBC.
Shake the dust off; my palms are placed together still with honor and respect, ever a tear in my eye, for the truth-seekers.
Namaste
I have no pets, but I'm single and hoping--haha.
"Your prize will be an all-expense paid cruise trip to Greece--compliments of the cannon of BBC, Dr. John Steven Gaines"
Thanks but I would rather go to podunkville with an old pastor who has calloused knees.
Speaking of pets, a lady at the park yesterday had a pet monkey, with a little shirt and pants. It made my day.
"I have no pets, but I'm single and hoping--haha."
I always thought boo-dists preferred cats? :o)
Well, get a dictionary, Bevis.
Cakes and Dee stay. Dee is the sweetest person in the world and Cakes, well...Cakes is smart, well versed in literature, a word smith, entertaining and has truck loads of common sense. Besides, he taught me how to do the etc. thing. (I was supposed to put a period behind it, right?)
He is not even a Christian and he knows how to handle the PW situation better than the pastor did!
No, I'm sort of leaning towards a monkey; hope I can find one a loyal as those are for Gaines/ Coombs.
Do you have an owner?
cakes, I know no monkey owners. At least not that I know of.
I have known people who owned a monkey for a week. After having to replace all their drapes, recover all their furniture and replace all the kids toys, they said ENOUGH of the monkey. (They figure out how to get out of their cages. YOu need a Ft Knox vault)
My advice: Admire them at the park and let someone else own them.
We have a pastor that is making more money than 99% of the American population.
(Just because people don't want to believe it doesn't make it not true. Why else do you think the elders are hiding the compensation package? These elders know there would be a rebellion if they published it. It looks like a rebellion has started already.)
This does not include the additional money he makes traveling to other churches FOR HIRE.
This does not include the additional money he makes leading people on tours.
This does not include income he and his wife are making by selling books and video tapes.
While gone speaking or leading tours, we are paying another traveling speaker to fill the pulpit while he is out making additional money.
What happened to Wednesday nights? We know that answer already.
How many large church pastors would travel all over the country preaching if the host churches did not pay them money? There's nothing wrong with a pastor speaking at another church in a controlled manor but pastor's who make a regular tour each year are milking their congregation.
Churches all over the country are now taking a look at their pastors who travel on the circuit wondering how much they are making over and above their salaries.
It's not unusual for Bellevue to pay a traveling pastor upwards of $5,000 per speaking engagement.
Take a look at the number of pastors who speak in each other's churches for pay on a regular basis. You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours.
This has got to stop.
We need transparency inside the church like we've never seen before.
2006huldah said, "Great news and great idea!"
You know huldah...this isn't a bad idea. Drastic means call for drastic measures. Things are at a crossroads anyway...what can it possibly hurt. It certainly would speak volumes. I think memberships are about to be purged at this point. Organize a stand-in, call the news media...get it done. Don't go down without a fight. If you could get as many as signed the petition, it would work. Call the news networks...CNN, Fox, all of them. ???
Moderation enabled! It's a shame you had to do it NASS, but it sure was necessary!
Thank you, NASS for all of your hard work and giving us a forum. God bless you!
Here's a thought (with facts) about salaries in America that might help give some perspective to this issue.
I heard a talk recently that included statistics about salaries around the world.
The average American yearly salary is $36,000 (I believe this is per household).
If you make $36,000 per year (per household), you are in the top 3 percentile of income in the world. Read it again. $36,000 = top 3% in the world.
SG is easily in the top 1%.
Easily.
I'm a freelance writer--if you want me to write a story regarding your plight, I'm sure I can get it published. Contact me if this intrigues you.
Here is a song. Some of you might like it, some might not. But I hope we all get the message.
MY JESUS
Which Jesus do you follow?
Which Jesus do you serve?
If Ephesians says to imitate Christ
Then why do you look so much like the world?
'Cause my Jesus bled and died
He spent His time with thieves and liars
He loved the poor and accosted the arrogant
So which one do you want to be?
Blessed are the poor in spirit
Or do we pray to be blessed with the wealth of this land
Blessed are they that hunger and thirst for righteousness
Or do we ache for another taste of this world of shifting sand
'Cause my Jesus bled and died for my sins
He spent His time with thieves and liars
He loved the poor and accosted the rich
So which one do you want to be?
Who is this that you follow
This picture of the American dream
If Jesus was here would you walk right by on the other side
or fall down and worship at His holy feet
Pretty blue eyes and curly brown hair and a clear complexion
Is how you see Him as He dies for Your sins
But the Word says He was battered and scarred
Or did you miss that part
Sometimes I doubt we'd recognize Him
'Cause my Jesus bled and died
He spent His time with thieves and the least of these
He loved the poor and accosted the comfortable
So which one do you want to be?
'Cause my Jesus would never be accepted in my church
The blood and dirt on His feet would stain the carpet
But He reaches for the hurting and despised the proud
I think He'd prefer Beale St. to the stained glass crowd
And I know that He can hear me if I cry out loud
I want to be like my Jesus!
I want to be like my Jesus!
Not a posterchild for American prosperity, but like my Jesus
You see I'm tired of living for success and popularity
I want to be like my Jesus
but I'm not sure what that means, to be like You Jesus
'Cause You said to live like You, love like You
but then You died for me...
Can I be like You Jesus?
I want to be like my Jesus...
catching up here . . .
Don,
Great posts, full of truth and insight.
You reference an IHCC sermon -- reminds me of my friend named Don -- connected to IHCC --, who flew me to mid-state for a cup of coffee in a Cessna 172 many, many years ago. He led a great choir in a growing church too.
Ring any bells?
sheeplessatbbc said...and responses:
1.Steve Gaines made it a very strong point in the pulpit some time ago that it was wrong to use other's materials, he'd never do that. (of course stronger words were used, don't remember the exact ones.)
Response: Yes, sheepless…my former pastor said the same thing. Regardless of that, his sermons are now posted on the website of his current church and they match sermons coming out of Saddleback. Duh…
2. SG has a stated in the pulpit he was a friend of Sam Shaws, the pastor of Germantown Baptist when the great divide came.
Response: Yes and both their churches and Gaines’ former church were listed at Willow Creek Association members. Any surprises that they should be friends. Their ‘visions’ were the same, weren’t they. They had the same purpose. Yada yada yada… Take a good look at both of them today. One has succeeded; the other has not. Not yet anyway.
3. SG & Sam Shaw were on the same Paul's Journey trip a few years ago.
Response: Again…no surprises.
4. Sam Shaw used printed outlines of sermons like SG uses.
Response: Hahaha! No kidding!!!
5. SG mentioned in the pulpit on Sunday morning he had been talking with Sam Shaw that week and asked what he was preaching on Sunday, they were preaching on the same thing..
Response: Hahaha! No kidding!!!
6. SG mentioned his secretary Linda was very happy when she found out SG types his own sermons
Response: Hahaha! No kidding!!!
And we could go on and on and on and on.
Thanks Sheepless...
We are most likely going to notice this a lot this year because Rick Warren sent out an email to his trained (and paying) pastors at the beginning of the year about his 'vision' for 2007. It is called 40 Days of Vision for 2007 and is supposed to kick off in September. Prepare yourselves...you are in for a ride. Remember...he promised. I kept a copy of that email.
What a mess...
Trollcakes,
Good idea on the article. I hope you have some takers from the current Bellevue membership here.
What'dya think of the song I posted?
It's not junk, very beautiful indeed; you write it?
Jesus was a revolutionary; the merely religious forget that.
Trollcakes,
I know you say you are not a Christian and I am probably out of the loop somewhere about this...I feel like I am in the twilight zone anyway.... but thank you so much for the passion expressed against child molestors and those that protect them. So many people I expected to be outraged by these sins have expressed more outrage about recording conversations without permission....at least I am not alone in the twilight zone!!
Thank you Lin for your Biblical wisdom and that you continue to explain the full process of forgiveness..not the forgive and move on kind that is unhealthy for all AND unbiblical BUT still being dictated from the BBC leaders because it fits the agenda.
After reading post after post from a certain now moderated poster that thinks DC rode in on a white horse to clean up problems at BBC....I almost think DC is nicer than his cheerleader...now that is scary!
Trollcakes,
No, I should have given the author. His name is Todd Agnew. I just like the message.
Ima,
I just went back to the CIC site and read about the recycled sermons. What I didn't know was that Bob DeWaay's church is in a Minneapolis suburb. My son lives in another suburb there, and we always talk about moving there when we both retire--not to freeze, but to be with our grandchildren. It sure caught my eye. Thank you for the information.
Dee
offline...
testing....
Since I have been out of blog land for a few days, I would like to hear what happened when the petition was presented to BBC leadership?
If anyone knows??
Memphis,
Not Jack.
only one for tonight
Judges 2:6 ¶ And when Joshua had let the people go, the children of Israel went every man unto his inheritance to possess the land.
7 And the people served the LORD all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that outlived Joshua, who had seen all the great works of the LORD, that he did for Israel.
8 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being an hundred and ten years old.
9 And they buried him in the border of his inheritance in Timnathheres, in the mount of Ephraim, on the north side of the hill Gaash.
10 And also all that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which KNEW NOT (emphasis mine) the LORD, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel.
11 And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim
Judges 17:6 In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
1 Corinthians 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, FLEE(emphasis mine) from idolatry.
1 Timothy 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But thou, O man of God, FLEE (emphasis mine) these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
1st Peter 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
11 Let him ESCHEW EVIL(emphasis mine), and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
13 And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
blessings
well Bob, I guess that is why you aren't in a leadership role then....
ok, maybe two
bb
Proverbs 26:3 ¶ A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool’s back.
4 ¶ Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
Proverbs 24:24 He that saith unto the wicked, Thou art righteous; him shall the people curse, nations shall abhor him:
25 But to them that rebuke him shall be delight, and a good blessing shall come upon them.
Proverbs 10:23 It is as sport to a fool to do mischief: but a man of understanding hath wisdom.
Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.
Proverbs 13:16 Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge: but a fool layeth open his folly.
Proverbs 14:16 A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident.
Proverbs 17:7 Excellent speech becometh not a fool: much less do lying lips a prince.
Proverbs 17:10 A reproof entereth more into a wise man than an hundred stripes into a fool.
Proverbs 17:12 Let a bear robbed of her whelps meet a man, rather than a fool in his folly.
Proverbs 17:16 Wherefore is there a price in the hand of a fool to get wisdom, seeing he hath no heart to it?
Proverbs 17:24 Wisdom is before him that hath understanding; but the eyes of a fool are in the ends of the earth.
Proverbs 18:2 A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.
Proverbs 18:6 A fool‘s lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes.
Proverbs 18:7 A fool‘s mouth is his destruction, and his lips are the snare of his soul.
Matthew 7:17-19
17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Rest Well Bob
2006 huldah,
If you do decide to move there...look up Bob DeWaay. I would HAVE to go to his church if I were in that area...no doubt about it. He is truly an incredible pastor. I have the utmost respect for this man.
Goodnight NASS...
Oh, ddddear. It's awful sssscary out here alone....
(Piglet watching for heffalumps and JMO)
Ttttime for bed.
Ok,
I'm not a Baptist nor a Christian, most of you would not like my politics, and I shoot pool over beer in dives. But I am connected in several factors--my own abuse as a child; growing up at Leawood;; a sex scandal in my Sangha some five years ago that resulted in my break with that fellowship, etc.
Those things, and the natural curiosity of a writer's temperament, brought me to this place back in December, but I have really grown to care about what happens to you; and the PCIR, followed by Sunday's medicine show, is disheartening.
The huddled masses will always try to make you feel like you're the one with the problem--I remember people telling me after the pie hit the fan, "if you cannot find in your heart compassion for the lama, then for whom may you have compassion?" Hearing the "under the blood" jag, I remember the disgraced teacher said of the scandal, "it is our karma together;" that I was culpable too. There were also dire warnings against speaking ill toward lamas or tulkus (clergy, more or less) and most everyone complied.
I had to walk away from that fellowship, because of unquestioning loyalty dipped in sanctimony; with nowhere to go.
This is the angle from which my story begins.
Cakes: I for one have appreciated your posts, your support and encouragement, and your wit! I am so sorry you have gone through what you have. When I read your email, the first thing that crossed my mind is that men will always disappoint us. We (I'm speaking as a people) instead have to put our faith in the One who won't. It seems so easy to trust people within our religious groups, yet the damage they can do is so much deeper because we do trust them.
I pray for you and am thankful for you. Thanks again for your kindness to us.
Just catching up this morning.
Junkmail,
I liked your song (9:23 pm 2/26/07). I awoke with BBC on my mind and it was comforting to quickly come across those beautiful words, it just reinforced that I don't have to have Bellevue Baptist Church, even though it has been my church home for 34 yrs, all I really need is Jesus. No one can take Him away us. Thank you for those pearls.
At 7:36 AM, February 27, 2007
sheeplessatbbc said...
I liked your song (9:23 pm 2/26/07). I awoke with BBC on my mind and it was comforting to quickly come across those beautiful words, it just reinforced that I don't have to have Bellevue Baptist Church, even though it has been my church home for 34 yrs, all I really need is Jesus. No one can take Him away us. Thank you for those pearls.
junk99mail replies...
sheepless,
I am glad the song was a blessing to you as it has been to me. Todd Agnew is a gifted song writer. I find it convicting, as it reminds me of how far I am from being like Jesus and valuing the things He does. It was not my intent to discourage anyone from being part of Bellevue, but I trust that you are and will follow the Lord's leading.
Blessings,
"junk"
I will take it that my deleted posts were your mom's way of saying, "stay out of our yard!" Obviously you do not want to hear voices from the majority side. But understand if you cannot accept conversational postings from your named opposition then how will you learn to convince the majority of us the err of our ways. Yes, you can choose who plays in your own yard. But when you come to the playground then the rules established by the majority are followed. And yes you can choose not to come back or to go to another playground. But if those are your choices then you shouldn't have need of a discussion board to discuss how we run our playground. Peace and may you find the place to worship that God would have for you.
cakes said...
"I had to walk away from that fellowship, because of unquestioning loyalty dipped in sanctimony; with nowhere to go."
We do have a lot in common!! Many of us have had to do the same. These things are worldly things that take their toll on a fellowship. I will tell you very frankly, that it is not of God. I know you are not a believer, and I have read your bio and my heart goes out to you for all you have been thru. But, I am here to tell you that there is a more excellent way.
Be of good courage!
jmo,
Unless your alter ego is "bob barker," I didn't delete any of your comments.
NBBCOF
But I saved copies of all the ones I did delete -- in case anyone needs to see the proof.
NBBCOF
Hmmm... sure got quiet in here all of a sudden.
It is quiet isn't it?
There is not sense of 'coming together' at Bellevue. Personally, I think the leadership is just willing to 'bide their time' until all the undesireables are gone. Business (literally) as usual type thing. They are in hopes all of the resistors will just fade into the distance. I think a business meeting is in order. Even if it means the resistance will have to rise from their seats and ask for the pulpit in order the list their grievances to the congregation. Things seem stalled to me. ???
People are praying - after Sunday's sermon - we need it more than ever!
mom4 wrote: "People are praying - after Sunday's sermon - we need it more than ever!"
mom4, I am not trying so sound curt but never a truer statement have you posted. One of the reasons that people in our world don't hear the message is they are too busy concerning themselves with the messager. We tend to hear what we want to hear unless we are open to allowing God speak to us. When the Word of God is quoted that is God speaking to us. You may want to discount the messager but please don't discount the message.
new bbc open forum wrote:
"jmo,
Unless your alter ego is "bob barker," I didn't delete any of your comments.
NBBCOF "
JMO Speaks again - Someone posted last night that I should be banned. I responded to that comment in a fairly aggressive tone. I assumed that is why I had my post deleted. But it's ok....but you've got to admit that without me, it been slow. You guys may hate me but I do love all you posters. I just hate that people think that you have to approach this situation with such negative zeal. The way you guys question everything that Bro. Gaines says and does now should be a lesson. Your approach has most of the membership questioning you guys. If we don't find the points we agree on then we can never agree on the points that we don't agree on.
Why does Christ Church have divisions? I mean we all believe in Jesus. It's just that we can't come together on keeping the main thing the main thing. One of my best friends is a Church of Christ guy. We disagree on baptism, instrumental music, and elders rule. But we both know that God loved us so much that He gave His only Son for our sins. I suggest we go back to what brought us together in the first place, then work out our disagreements.
Now maybe now that I'm back...the fun will begin again! :^)
testing.
sleeplessatbbc, I may have this wrong (not that it would matter to anyone but me) but are you not Jim H?
Please sir, I have read enough of your hyperbolic remarks, inflammatory headlines, and plain stupidity (terrorist picture) to sit back and have you judge me on my simplistic analogy of a playground. I have been embarrassed by the outlandish way that your website operates. It is a shame to all honorable persons and makes the National Enquirer look like Newsweek in comparison.
And by the way, get a spell checker. If you going to run a website for public consumption at least get you spelling corrected. I've read some of your letters that you've personally written and my 6th grade English teacher would have failed you.
I certainly at one time was very concerned about those hurting. But seeing the personal attacks on someone like David Coombs on your site actually squelched those concerns. You have personally cause problems in Christ's church and will be held accountable.
And if you've not Jim H. forget the above and just understand that my attempt at an analogy was just plain simplistic.
Well, I should have remembered to copy the original text from sleeplessatbbc. Is seems he deleted his diatribe on my use of the playground analogy. But for the edification of all I will leave my response as it stands. Just in any case you want to know how I feel about the savingBellevue.com site, just ask. I'll try and not hold back my response.
And by the way, get a spell checker. If you going to run a website for public consumption at least get you spelling corrected. I've read some of your letters that you've personally written and my 6th grade English teacher would have failed you.
And if you've not Jim H. forget the above and just understand that my attempt at an analogy was just plain simplistic.
JMO, if you are going to critique someone on their stupidity and spelling, you might want to spell check your own posts. It just seems less hypocritcal that way.
On another note, why are you here right now? To be divisive? Why would you say the bloggers hate you? Is it because you hate the bloggers and assume the feeling is mutual?
You and I have had this conversation before, JMO. We can discuss these issues without attacking each other and minus the arrogant, condescending attitudes. If you want to discuss an issue, please do, but if you are just here to create drama, don't you have better things to do with your time?
JMO wrote: "Why does Christ Church have divisions? I mean we all believe in Jesus."
Paul does not agree with you:
1 Corinthians 11:18-20
For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part, for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.
jmo wrote:
"sleeplessatbbc, I may have this wrong (not that it would matter to anyone but me) but are you not Jim H?"
LOLOLOL!!! Believe me, you couldn't be farther from the truth. I've met them both, and they are different people. One's male; one's female. And it's "sheeplessatbbc," not "sleepless."
I saw that request to ban you, but as you can see, I didn't do so. If you're missing a comment it either didn't get posted in the first place or else you inadvertently deleted it yourself. I have no problem admitting when I delete someone's comment.
JMO,
You have made my day! You present yourself as Miss Spelling Bee Queen...admonishing those for making grammatical errors. Then you turn around and do the same thing yourself! I'm surprised you haven't been more careful! You are a real piece of cake! You are just like the rest of us my dear...you are in the flesh. You will be a classic in the new and improved Bellevue. Can you spell purpose driven correctly? What about Rick Warren? I'm really sorry...just couldn't let this opportunity pass me by. You won't do!
socwork, I knew that I could count on you waking up and joining. LOL First let me say that I've known it was sheep and not sleep but I chose to call them as I see them. Secondly and more to your point socwork...I did not incorrectly spell those words, I misused those words. But there is a difference in writing a letter, writing articles for a website and posting on a blog. But I will accept your criticism in the loving spirit that I'm sure that you meant. By the way I udnertsnd taht smoenoe wtih aevrgae ineltllct wlil uasully be albe to raed tihs sneetnce if the frist and lsat ltetres are crroect. But I do attempt to communicate as effectively as I can.
grJMO,
I think you are much meaner than the Brute you serve. Is foam coming out of your mouth....I believe even DC would ask you to take a chill pill. You are acting more crazy than the ones you accused of acting crazy.
ezekiel, your writings sometime remind me more of the father of your account name rather than the name ezekiel itself. I am sure a Bible scholar as yourself will understand the meaning. But if not let me know and I'll share the information with you.
You are right that God doesn't need our sacrifices or tithes or for that matter a need for us to worship Him. But God did create man in His image so that we may worship Him of our free will. We may chose not to worship Him here on earth, but we will bow down to Him after death.
After being called down on my playground analogy I hate to attempt another. But since I've stolen this from Dr. Rogers then it must be acceptable. If you wanted to know the best way to operate your car efficiently and effectively you'd want to talk to the person who built that car. At the very least you'd read the instruction manual that came with the car. Well God has given us instructions for how best to live our lives. As Pastor Rogers would tell us, "for every thou shalt not, there is a this is a better way". God tells us what not to do so that we may live our life a better way. He made us so he know what best works for our body and our minds.
In the area of tithing and sacrifice, God may not need our offerings but we need the lesson learned from the offering. First lesson, that it all belongs to God. Second that these things we have in life will not separate us from the Giver of all. By our worship and our actions we say to God that He knows what is best for our lives. That is the reason we give to show ourselves that we recognize that all belong to Him.
Oh, my apologies, JMO - I guess they were just mistakes, weren't they.
;)
gmommylv wrote: "grJMO,
I think you are much meaner than the Brute you serve. Is foam coming out of your mouth....I believe even DC would ask you to take a chill pill. You are acting more crazy than the ones you accused of acting crazy."
I am not sure who you mean by "Brute you serve". I serve God but surely that cannot be your meaning. I make a living on my own accord so other than representing my clients I don't exactly work for anyone. DC would ask me not to waste my time posting to those who desire to divide our church. But he wouldn't ask me to take a chill pill because he respects my right to do as I choose. As for your last statement if that is in reference to Jim H. then I have a long way to go to be in his league.
But I wouldn't want to disappoint you so I will reply in kind with a question. Have you missed some meds today? Now who has foam in their mouth.
JMO: "By our worship and our actions we say to God that He knows what is best for our lives. That is the reason we give to show ourselves that we recognize that all belong to Him."
What a strange view (man centered) of our Sovereign Holy God.
"But God did create man in His image so that we may worship Him of our free will. We may chose not to worship Him here on earth, but we will bow down to Him after death. "
I'd be interested in your exposition of Romans 3 and 9
lindon,
That is a strange view? What do you make of it?
socwork...among the things I'm full of are fun, wit, mistakes, and errors of the head. Yes, I do make mistakes like trying to jump fences that are too high, running in place and expecting to get somewhere, and expecting others to be more than they are. But for some reason people are willing to pay me for my knowledge. Now I bet that will make you day to realise that. As an added bonus I purposely made a mistake with you for your and misspelled realize. Hope you caught that!
How many people who were members when Steve Gaines assumed pastoral duties at Bellevue have moved their membership?
Jeremiah 9:23-24
23 Thus says the LORD: "Let not the wise man boast in his wisdom, let not the mighty man boast in his might, let not the rich man boast in his riches, 24 but let him who boasts boast in this, that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD who practices steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in the earth. For in these things I delight, declares the LORD."
I know I am going to regret responding since you are so happy with yourself. I don't know who you are referring to but a while back you told one of my fellow minorities that she was acting crazy. If you are the same person who has posted under JMO before,you do know who the Brute is to me....the one you said was going to clean up what is wrong at BBC. Thank you for asking about my health. I am fine. I only get fired up when sodemy,sexual abuse, and sin are reduced by Christians and church leaders to an "incident." I am truely sad that you are so intent on being hateful to everyone. If DC really does encourage and support the way you are expressing your feelings then BBC is in worse shape that I thought.
lindon, ok, you solve the paradox. Does God need our tithes? If not then why do we tithe? Why did God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son? He wanted to test Abraham's love for God. Plus it gave us a glimpse of God's love for us when he sent Jesus to be sacrificed. But Jesus was sent for man's sake...hmmm you gonna call that man centered? But Abraham's sacrifice was about him and his relationship to God. Not God's needs but Abraham's needs. God wanted Abraham to show that all belonged to God. God had given him Isaac and God could ask for Isaac back. But maybe you are more learned. Please explain it to us.
“Work hard and become a leader; be lazy and never succeed. (Proverbs 12:24)
” A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult” Proverbs
“I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. (Jeremiah 29:11)”
Definition of Massage:
Massage is the practice of applying unstructured pressure to achieve a beneficial response.
Just My Opinion said…
mom4, I am not trying so sound curt but never a truer statement have you posted. One of the reasons that people in our world don't hear the message is they are too busy concerning themselves with the messager. We tend to hear what we want to hear unless we are open to allowing God speak to us. When the Word of God is quoted that is God speaking to us. You may want to discount the messager but please don't discount the message.
JMO – You nailed the performance of Steve Gaines Sunday evening. His new title at Bellevue should be Senior Massager. I think you self consciously let us into the window of your mind when you misspelled messenger. Perhaps even you know a massager when you feel one.
gmommylv, I suggest that you refrain from responding. I will not allow suppositions and innuendos to just pass by without a challenge. Your last post was rambling with an assumption that just is not correct. If you want to challenge a statement I've made that is perfectly acceptable. But just to make wandering comments about your assumptions of me is without merit. And please for the last time don't place the anti-victim tag on me as if I am some cold blooded person without care for someone molested. I have not moved one point from my position that PW should have been gone before his confession to Bro. Steve stopped from vibrating in the wind. Be careful when casting stones that the sin that you have written on that stone hits the person guilty of that sin.
Just My Opinion said...
sleeplessatbbc, I may have this wrong (not that it would matter to anyone but me) but are you not Jim H?
SHEEPLESS SAYS,
NO, NO, NO, NO
Please sir, I have read enough of your hyperbolic remarks, inflammatory headlines, and plain stupidity (terrorist picture) to sit back and have you judge me on my simplistic analogy of a playground. I have been embarrassed by the outlandish way that your website operates. It is a shame to all honorable persons and makes the National Enquirer look like Newsweek in comparison.
SHEEPLESS SAID,
THIS FORUM IS NOT A PLAYGROUND AND WE ARE NOT PLAYING GAMES.
And by the way, get a spell checker. If you going to run a website for public consumption at least get you spelling corrected. I've read some of your letters that you've personally written and my 6th grade English teacher would have failed you.
SHEEPLESS SAYS,
JMO says,
"at least get YOU spelling
corrected"
SHEEPLESS SAYS,
Where did YOU go to school in the 6th grade?
I certainly at one time was very concerned about those hurting. But seeing the personal attacks on someone like David Coombs on your site actually squelched those concerns. You have personally cause problems in Christ's church and will be held accountable.
JMO SAID,
"You have personally CAUSE problems"
SHEEPLESS SAYS,
HOW 'BOUT THAT SPELL CHECK..NOT ALWAYS RELIABLE IS IT??
And if you've not Jim H. forget the above and just understand that my attempt at an analogy was just plain simplistic.
JMO SAID,
"And if YOU'VE not Jim H."
SHEEPLESS SAYS,
Well there you go again, still not working is it??
3:44 PM, February 27, 2007
You seem to be such an angry individual, ever thought about directing some of that toward leadership, especially those that are willfully breaking Tennessee Law in many areas, guilty of harboring a pedophile, co-mingling of funds, failing to honor God's word in Matthew 18, and the list goes on and on and on.
JMO, take a look at yourself first before you so boldy attack others.
We all make typo errors from time to time but seems you're the only calling people on it. Better get that spell check, checked!
JMHO of course.
OOPS!! See how easy it is to make a mistake.
We all make typo errors from time to time but seems you're the only calling people on it. Better get that spell check, checked!
Just My Opinion wrote:
The consequences will remain and shadow Bro. Steve for years to come...but what more do you want? I suspect that many people (here I go again) will not be satisfied until Bro. Steve is gone. Well, the vast majority of the members are not wanting that to happen....and the majority wins in this decision. And please don't start attacking me with scriptures...I am certain that my knowledge is better than most who read this blog. And by the actions of many who post, following the scripture is not the goal so much as the following of one's feelings and emotions. And we know what Dr. Rogers said about that, don't we?
____________
JMO,
Your statement in the paragraph above and highlighted below represent a lot about you.
"I am certain that my knowledge is better than most who read this blog."
Let me remind you the Pharisees were known as the champions and guardians of Israel's written and oral law. They also became the most bitter and hateful enemies of Christ. Christ denounced them for letting their traditions negate the power of God's Word. The Truth does count at all times.
Matt.15:1-9.
Let me also remind you that the ACLU knows the Constitution of the United States of America more than most people on this blog. They also know how to misuse it more than most because of their knowledge. Knowledge sometime puffs up.
God is interested in living out His Word in our lives. How people can stand for a pastor that is not honest just don't get it. If you can't believe your pastor some of the time, you can't believe him anytime.
I am one that believes Steve Gaines should resign. Bellevue will never be able to heal with him here. Pastors don't beat their sheep. Pastors don't trespass. Pastors don't misuse the Word for their advantage.
Once he is gone, there is still the problem of the Elders who are running Bellevue. They must be willing to step down as well but I'm afraid their pride will not allow them to give up their powerhold over $100,000,000 of property and $30,000,000 in the bank.
truth or lie wrote: "Once he is gone, there is still the problem of the Elders who are running Bellevue. They must be willing to step down as well but I'm afraid their pride will not allow them to give up their powerhold over $100,000,000 of property and $30,000,000 in the bank."
I sense that you have a little envy where money is concerned. Don't you recall that the elders are all millionaires? Why do they need to have a power-hold over the church's money?
sleeplessatbbc, we all make mistakes. The point is we're blogging and Jim is producing a website for the world to see.
imaresistor said...
How many people who were members when Steve Gaines assumed pastoral duties at Bellevue have moved their membership?
6:03 PM, February 27, 2007
Ima,
Many have already moved their membership, there is really no way to know because BBC is not releasing any requested records, I suspect they will be especially protective of that list.
Many members are going to Bible Fellowship and not the worship services now, many are visiting other churches and many are simply staying home and watching Dr Rogers or some other service on TV.
The sanctuary used to be packed at the 9:30 service and fairly full at the 11:00 service. Now the 9:30 service is not as well attended as the 11:00 service used to be. However, this past Sunday at 9:30 there seemed to be more people than the previous few Sundays. I wondered if that was because people may have thought that the ordination may take place then rather than that night and wanted to see if it would actually take place. I think the next few Sundays at the 9:30 service will tell us a lot.
Our church was growing when SG first came, then all the issues kept surfacing and the congregation started dwindling.
The vast number of empty seats is painfully obvious.
Just My Opinion,
What scripture references do you follow when you taunt people? What kind of example do you wish to show? If people look at your posts, will they see the flesh or the spirit?
Just wondering?
Just my opinion said...
"I've certainly made some big mistakes in my life. But I have a loving God who can forgive all my sins."
7:22 PM, February 26, 2007
********
And, at that particular time in your life, please tell me, what church were you pastoring and did they involve a violation of the written laws of your community? Was it written of in the local newspapers as a testimony to the Christ-likeness of your church, pray tell?
Dee
Piglet said in response to JMO's question...
"No. I didn't question Dr. Gaines until Craig Parker let us know it was so much higher than Dr. Rogers' salary at the time of his RETIREMENT. Dr. Gaines comes in wet behind the ears making so much more? How arrogant. What delusions of grandeur."
7:42 PM, February 26, 2007
*******
This statement you made about the salary of Dr. Rogers at retirement and the larger starting salary of Dr. Gaines made me realize in part one of the reasons SG doesn't want the memory of Dr. Rogers around. IT HAUNTS HIM AND IT IS A SHAME AND A DISGRACE. Lord, have mercy.
Dee
Money has a interesting hold over people. It has never made sense to me that the more money most people have, the more they want.
This is the same way with power. The more power most people have, the more they want.
It's sad but true.
Money is intoxicating.
Power is intoxicating.
This attitude inside the church is disgusting and sickening.
I've never figured out why Harry Smith, Steve Gaines, Steve Tucker, Jeff Arnold Jr, David Coombs, Wayne Vandersteeg, Chuck Taylor, John Crockett, Brian Miller, and others thought it's ok to not let the congregation know how they spend money on their behalf and then continue to expect their tithes for their personal agendas.
If they are comfortable with their spending habits, let us the congregation know how the money is being spent.
Why would it not be any of our interest or business to know how much we are paying our pastor? We are sounding more like the Catholic church now.
Just My Opinion,
Just in case you forgot about this one, here it is again. Enjoy.
Journey of Paul and John May 21- June 3, 2007
http://www.dehoneytravel.com
tours/biblical Greece and Turkey
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Dear XXXX, 10/16/2006
The price listed on our website for this trip is based on 1 free for 5 host benefits: for every 5 paying passengers, the 6th trip is free. This is our standard host benefit ratio on this particular tour package and will apply to all hosts recruiting travelers for this tour. As an alternate to earning free trips, you may choose to take the cash value of a trip for every 5 paying passengers. For instance, if you needed to cover two tour leader trips, and then took the remaining host benefits in cash, it would take 10 paying passengers to earn your two free trips. Thereafter, you would receive the cash amount of $4899 per every 5 additional paying passengers. Thus, your host benefits could look like this:
After 5 paying passengers, 1st free trip
After 10 paying passengers, 2nd free trip
After 15 paying passengers, 2 free trips + cash cost of 1 trip $4899
After 20 paying passengers, 2 free trips + cash cost of 2 trips $9798
After 30 paying passengers, 2 free trips + cash cost of 4 trips $19,596
After 40 paying passengers, 2 free trips + cash cost of 6 trips $29,394
After 50 paying passengers, 2 free trips + cash cost of 8 trips $39,192
After 60 paying passengers, 2 free trips + cash cost of 10 trips $48,990
After 70 paying passengers, 2 free trips + cash cost of 12 trips $58,788
I hope this information is clear and helpful. Please let me know if you have any questions.
Sincerely,
Melissa
To earn only 2 free trips for 80 travelers with no additional host benefits, the cost would drop to $4199 per person.
Melissa Williamson
Dehoney Travel, Inc.
3008 Charlestown Crossing
New Albany, IN 47150
phone (812) 206-1080 or (800) 325-6708
fax (812) 206-1085
melissa@dehoneytravel.com
www.dehoneytravel.com
Below Link
Here is a different travel tour company that gives a 1in 3 free trips. It appears a pastor could make almost twice as much money using them.
http://www.christiantravelopps.com/hosts.htm
Jamie, Steve and Sam Shaw listed last year as going on Paul's Journey
Truthfully, Brothers and Sisters,
All this bickering and rehashing is accomplishing absolutely nothing. The fact that this blog was so quiet for a large part of the day, however, was making quite a statement and a positive one at that.
If we were to entirely take our hands off these "terrible times at the temple" and give it ALL to the Lord Jesus in prayer, HE would not fail us. The fact that JMO and others have done everything they could today to stir up trouble and get us firing back shows that "they" are doing a pretty good job of keeping the focus off the "real thing" going on at BBC.
If we disappear from this blog, they will then have a lot harder job of infiltrating our ranks to find out what is going on with us and what our future plans are.
Isn't it about time that we left our battle position which is in the OPEN and cover ourselves under the wings of the Almighty? He will fight the battle for us. He will deliver us.
JESUS IS LORD! AMEN AND HALLELUJAH!
Dee
truth or lie said,
We are sounding more like the Catholic church now.
I made this statement threads ago. We need to think about this.
JMO: "But for some reason people are willing to pay me for my knowledge. Now I bet that will make you day to realise that. As an added bonus I purposely made a mistake with you for your and misspelled realize."
1 Corinthians 13:4
Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant
“Work hard and become a leader; be lazy and never succeed. (Proverbs 12:24)"
Here is a better translation of that verse:
24The hand of the diligent will rule,
while the slothful will be put to forced labor.
” A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult” Proverbs
??? Let this apply to us ALL except when scripture is twisted...then PLEASE be annoyed.
“I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. (Jeremiah 29:11)”
AUGGG! This is most abused and misprepresented scripture out there. Always read this one in context please, folks.
truth or lie,
Forgive me for asking this, but what exactly is your issue with Mr. vanDersteeg and Mr. Crockett? Mr. V is one of the few men who have asked forgiveness from the congregation (not only the congregation, but the CC audience).
I don't know Mr. Crockett, but I do know his precious wife. She was such a blessing to me and my dear husband at our wedding that I hate to see her family dragged into the fray.
I'd like to know why these men are included in the group of men who are responsible for our church's problems. Please be as specific as you can, and include as many details as possible.
Thank you,
Hope Patterson
Verses in NT about tithe or tithes (ESV):
Matthew 23:23
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.
Luke 11:42
"But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, and neglect justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.
Luke 18:11-13
11The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed[a] thus: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.' 13But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!'
Hebrews 7:5
And those descendants of Levi who receive the priestly office have a commandment in the law to take tithes from the people, that is, from their brothers, though these also are descended from Abraham.
Hebrews 7:6
But this man who does not have his descent from them received tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises.
Hebrews 7:8
In the one case tithes are received by mortal men, but in the other case, by one of whom it is testified that he lives.
Hebrews 7:9
One might even say that Levi himself, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham,
Read here to see how things changed in the NT Church:
Acts 5
1But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, 2and with his wife's knowledge he kept back for himself some of the proceeds and brought only a part of it and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? 4While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God." 5When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last. And great fear came upon all who heard of it. 6The young men rose and wrapped him up and carried him out and buried him.
7After an interval of about three hours his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8And Peter said to her, "Tell me whether you[a] sold the land for so much." And she said, "Yes, for so much." 9But Peter said to her, "How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out." 10Immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. When the young men came in they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11And great fear came upon the whole church and upon all who heard of these things.
There are many lessons in these verses. I pray the Holy Spirit will illuminate us all with His Truth.
These men are in the middle because of the positions they took as chairing the finance committee. They know the truth on matters the church has not been truthful on and they have sat silent.
When someone does that, they are an accomplice. The truth will continue to unfold.
I believe both of these men to be good hearted men who have been compromised. We all have the freedom and responsibility for our decisions.
It's been said that Steve Gaines has spent his integrity and now he's spending others. I'd say I have to agree with that statement.
Dee,
Just for the record, the reference to struggle was in getting a motion before the church. If you can't quote me within the text of the conversation just don't bother trying to slander me.
Steve
"I'd like to know why these men are included in the group of men who are responsible for our church's problems. Please be as specific as you can, and include as many details as possible."
Please go offline for this.
Yes, this has become a snake pit where leadership sycophants come to pester and muddle the very real issues.
Bark, bark, Massa! Your guys are such warriors for the lord kissing those nasty feet. (By the way, "sycophant" is not calling names like "jerk" or something worse; it has a meaning that JMO, Bepatent and others fulfill. It's more like a job description, like garbage man, law-yer, consultant, door stoop fellowshipper or whatever.
And JMO, you're way past giving us a second warning; aren't you in contradiction to the word of the Lord...er, Padre.
(If you don't like "Padre," it is intended to serve as both the appellation, and to convey how uncomfortably it steps into my syntax. So too with Rev. CEO. In charge of finances, eh? Wow-sad-hmmn-huh huh huh-LOLOLOLOL[thanks Bob].)
If everybody leaves, NASS could hand over the keys to JustMy(and God's, obviously)Opinion, and he could change the name to Neverland Duderanch (no whips or chaps allowed). They could have those three monkeys on the header.
truth or lie,
You are just showing your ignorance and have proven that you have a issue with money. You attempt to slander Godly men and you sir will be accountable.
Sorry, eh don't know what's happened to that eh key.
Actually, truth or lie, your statements are very compassionate toward these men. I fail to see your 'issue' with money excepting that secrecy from the leadership at a mega concerning lots of money is indeed a concern. Especially since your last pastor was open and transparent.
But this sounds much closer to slander:
Just My Opinion said...
truth or lie,
You are just showing your ignorance and have proven that you have a issue with money. You attempt to slander Godly men and you sir will be accountable.
8:35 PM, February 27, 2007
I love every one of these men. God knows my heart. I weep for these men and Bellevue. Nobody on this blog is perfect. I've failed my Lord many times today and I realize that.
I fear for Bellevue because God is not going to honor anything but the truth.
When all is laid bare, there will be many who either cry out for forgiveness or run for the hills.
True repentance comes before getting exposed and then being sorry for being found out.
I pray all reading this post examine our hearts before the Lord right now and get right with God.
Some may not believe it, but I love you in the name of Jesus and pray and hope that repentance sweeps across the pews at Bellevue and in the pulpit. I pray for brokeness and revival. Oh God, how we desperately need revival in our church and land.
Slander you? Ha, your sloppy, insipid, lightweight, dodging arguments slander themselves and good people who have good reason to think Gaines has forfeited the integrity and trust of leadership. Why would a High School principal rightfully lose his job for entirely the same failing--what is the yardstick of accountability?
Here's an idea: before impetuously pecking something off, why don't you think about it and not just shoot from the hip so much. You need to just go away, back to Bratton. (Thanks for andswering the Martin Luther question on HIS blog, if wanting; I'm sure it will be warm and coddled there--koo-chee-koo)
Slander you...slander you. Look in the mirror. You crack me up.
truth or lie,
I have reason to believe Wayne van Dersteeg and John Crockett to be caring, godly men who put others before themselves just as the apostle Paul instructed.
THE WORLD NEEDS MEN…(and I might add women)
-Who cannot be bought
-Whose word is their bond
-Who put character above wealth
-Who possess opinions and a will
-Who are larger than their vocations
-Who do not hesitate to take chances
-Who will not lose their individuality in a crowd
-Who will be as honest in small things as in great things
-Who will make no compromise with wrong
-Whose ambitions are not confined to their own selfish desires
-Who will not say they do it “because everybody else does it”
-Who are true to their friends through good report and evil report,, in adversity as well as in prosperity
-Who do not believe that shrewdness, cunning and hardheadedness are the best qualities for winning success
-Who are not ashamed or afraid to stand for the truth when it is unpopular
-Who can say “no” with emphasis, although all the rest of the world says “yes”
Just MY opinion
Who is the man, who is the man, who is the maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan?
Let us all be in awe of JMO whose
knowledge of Scripture is so vast. The person that I consider to know the most about Scripture would NEVER make such a statement - how so very humble of you.
bbc refugee,
Is this post related to my exchanges with truth or lie?
If so, I'll say (with tears in my eyes) that the two men in discussion meet all of these criteria.
IMO
Just my opinion,
Okay. You have made a rather empty attempt to answer one of my questions. What of the others?
By the way, nothing I have said in any way slanders YOU. I have also left the times of your full post up there so that if someone wants to go back and view your entire post, it is relatively simple. I do this to avoid wasting space on this blog.
Dee
hopeinfaith: "I have reason to believe Wayne van Dersteeg and John Crockett to be caring, godly men who put others before themselves just as the apostle Paul instructed. "
Why would they go along with such things as secrecy and treating the members with such disrepect? Why would they support a pastor who ignored scripture and protected a pedophile? Why would they go along with false teaching?
Oh please do not follow mere men. Be careful what mortals you put on pedestals. Put your faith in Christ. Men will always fail you but Christ never will.
You sound very young in your posts. Let us hope that seasoning will come.
faithnhope said...
bbc refugee,
Is this post related to my exchanges with truth or lie?
Faith,
No. It is just my opinion. It is for each of us to do our own self exam. It is for each one to decide for themselves.
lindon,
There have been times in my life when men have not failed me. Wayne V was one of those men. He and his family pointed me toward God during my own personal hell on earth.
I have very few memories together with my husband, but Mrs. Crockett is a huge part of what I remember and treasure. I don't believe that her husband could be part of what's wrong with Bellevue.
I don't put men on pedestals, but I do recognize men through whom God's grace has flown. Grace flows to the lowest parts, which would be me. Two families through who it has flown are the van Dersteegs and the Crocketts.
Hope Patterson
And to follow Dee's, I was the recipient of the comment in question; it is news to me that it was specifically about anything in particular--just another blanket indictment.
You folks are fond of signifiers like negative, divisive, hatred, unforgiveness, (harboring pedophiles is divisive, so who's got the 2x4 in their eye?), "under the blood," "hezbollah," or all kind of sentimental or sanctimonious speech meant to shut dialogue down or steal it. So, I recieved it for the pittance it was and moved on--move on, that is what you whish, no?
So what, you're disobeying dear leader just by being here, to boot. Now don't blaspheme, brother.
hopeinfaith: "I have reason to believe Wayne van Dersteeg and John Crockett to be caring, godly men who put others before themselves just as the apostle Paul instructed. "
This is what Paul wrote..inspired by God:
1 Corinthians 5:
9I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- 10not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler--not even to eat with such a one. 12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13God judges[b] those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."
And this:
Titus 1
5This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you-- 6if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife,[c] and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. 7For an overseer,[d] as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, 8but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. 9He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound[e] doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
If they are like Paul, how could they have ignored the words he wrote that were inspired by the Holy Spirit?
In reality, they did something nice for you but they are NOT like Paul. Paul would never have stood for what Gaines has done in your church. We know this by the Pauline letters to the churches.
lindon, slander is a malicious, false, and defamatory statement. I stand by my comment on truth or lies. It would be one thing if you guys personally knew these men that you discussed and have some experience with any dishonest acts or know them not to have integrity. But you are doing character assassination on men you don't personally know. All you know is what you've read on these blogs. And that being the case is ignorance of facts.
Just my opinion (Steve),
Why don't YOU stop calling many on here "ignorant" and answer the same questions I have been asking you for two days now--to no avail?
Dee
All anyone needs to know is what the culprits have admitted, in order to doubt their fitness as leaders, much less of a church.
"It would be one thing if you guys personally knew these men that you discussed and have some experience with any dishonest acts or know them not to have integrity"
Blogging friends, Does anyone here have to know Bill Clinton personally to know he is a reprobate?
Does anyone here have to personally know Gaines to see that he ignored scripture and protected a pedophile minister?
Does anyone here have to personally know any of the current leadership to understand if they are following scripture or Gaines?
It would be one thing if you guys personally knew these men that you discussed and have some experience with any dishonest acts or know them not to have integrity.
Did you ever talk about Bill Clinton during his fiasco? Are you friends with him? Since when does knowing someone personally serve as a prequalifier for being able to speak about said person? This is illogical. This means we can not speak about any political candidates (don't talk about the upcoming presidential race).
You assume a great deal, JMO. Some of us do know some of these people that we are discussing. Many of us do have firsthand information of very inappropriate behavior. I, of course, can't speak for lindon, but little of what I know about the situation(s) was gathered from this blog (or Jim H's site for that matter).
Dee,
I have deleted as requested. Actually it is not a word I use in spoken conversation but I've since the email revolution used the word as I thought appropriate. The dictionary definition is "Used to express mild surprise, delight, dissatisfaction, or annoyance". But I do understand where you are coming from as it could be another word which has been an alteration from Jesus. My intent was not to use that word as an offense to anyone. I am capable of utilizing other words for that. LOL My apologies to you.
Wow, lindon! Great minds think alike... and so do ours. ;)
lindon,
You're on the verge of losing me. How are these men sexually immoral, drunkards, or anything else that Paul reproved? How have they ignored what is written?
Do you know them or their families? I do, and I can truly say that they gained nothing worldly from their kindness to me.
Could you possibly be mistaken to include them among the problem?
socwork, please tell us what you know about these men firsthand. I know most of them personally and if there is something that would need amplification then I have no issue asking them directly. But I've known most of these men more than 15 years and I have found them to be with high integrity and lovers of the Lord.
Just don't assume that these men provide blind support to our pastor. They hold Bro. Steve accountable for his actions or lack thereof. So aside from their support of our pastor (Biblical, I may add) how have these men shown you that they are not men of integrity?
faithnhope: "You're on the verge of losing me. How are these men sexually immoral, drunkards, or anything else that Paul reproved? How have they ignored what is written?"
OK, I will spell it out for you. Paul Williams was NOT qualified as a minister yet the pastor kept him on for 6-7 months.
Why are these men not calling for the pastor to resign? A pastor who does not...not only know scripture but willfully ignores it? This does not make them fear for what they are doing?
YOU said they were like Paul. I say they are NOT like Paul at all.
Paul said in Acts that the 'blood of men is not on his hands because he did not neglect to give them the FULL counsel of God'.
We can't just ignore the parts we do not like. YOu said they were like Paul...I say, according to what Paul wrote, you are blind.
"Just don't assume that these men provide blind support to our pastor. They hold Bro. Steve accountable for his actions or lack thereof."
If this were so, Gaines would be gone already. These are men who do not take scripture seriously. Let us not forget: We are talking about a Pastor, teacher of the Word, shepherd.
So aside from their support of our pastor...
Or, in other words, aside from the most obvious indictment, what else you got?
Koocheecoocheekoo.
Lindon,
In response to your 9:42 PM post, the answer is "No, I do not have to know these men at Bellevue personally to know their deeds which have either been admitted, witnessed, or evidenced by various means."
JMO, Terry Smith, and Bepatient are all good examples of those in DENIAL of the Truth of factual evidence and admission. It's about time for Bepatient to show up now as he/she usually shows up about this time of night and usually after JMO "leaves" the scene, unannounced and without answering all the questions even though "he" expounds endlessly, daily like the drip, drip, drip of a leaky tap and stirs up almost everyone here with much devilish delight. (deep breath)
Dee
Just My Opinion said...
Just don't assume that these men provide blind support to our pastor. They hold Bro. Steve accountable for his actions or lack thereof
JOM, Could you give us 2 examples of this?
Jude 1
17But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ. 18They said to you, "In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions." 19It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit. 20But you, beloved, build yourselves up in your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit; 21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life. 22And have mercy on those who doubt; 23save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh.
David (tc),
Your humor is sooo welcome. I think I speak for most on here when I say that I appreciate your being with us and helping us in our defense of the truth.
BTW, I read your story late last night about where you're coming from and found it quite interesting. I guess the Bible holds true even in the case of Buddhists in that your own experience with your Sangha showed you that you can't trust men in that sect either. We must only trust God. Whenever people point a finger at other Christians and how bad they act, I always direct them to look at Jesus. HE is the only perfect man worthy of merit and trust.
We thank you, Trollcates.
Dee
trollcakes,
you should be saying 'kookoochekoo', because you are the walrus. (Beatles)
socwork, if I made a reference to great minds...I'd be blogged to death for being egotistical.
Folks, I have some clients in town for the next few days. If I didn't answer you questions it wasn't intentional. You can email me if you'd like. If I decide to return it will be this weekend. I can hear the joy and applause as you read this wonderful news. But I promise you that it will be boring without me. Maybe Mike will show up to keep you guys "in your place"...
My final words for the evening...
lindon, you are so wrong on many of your points I don't have the energy to take the time to refute all you wrong thinking.
truth or lies...you cannot be more than 19 years of age...please tell me you are...I will be shocked should I find out differently.
Hope....you can see how it angers one when people they know to be godly people are spoken about in such a negative light. John and Sara are the salt of the earth. You could not have better friends to associate.
cakes, I pray that you accept what has already been paid for with Jesus' blood. I am sorry for what has happened in your life. I really enjoyed you post that was so degrading about me. It helps keep my ego in check to get slammed once in a while.
sowork...girl, you'd pick a fight with me if I said it was dark outside. I wish that you knew the people that Hope knows. You'd be embarrassed to side with lindon if you knew these godly people personally. I know that you have a sweet heart and if Hope could share how wonderful John and Sara are with you you'd be apologizing with tears.
And finally, I know it should be your rather than you but it my way of showing a little humility...relatively speaking..LOL
JMO, I'm not going 'round this mountain with you again. You have shown that you only want to bicker and argue. If you really want to know my thoughts on this, you can review this blog for the past two months in your free time. I have been very clear as to what I know for a fact and what is "just my opinion."
"But I've known most of these men more than 15 years and I have found them to be with high integrity and lovers of the Lord."
We cannot love the Lord without Loving His Word. And we cannot love His Word and willfully ignore it...and continue to ignore the fact that the pastor does not love the Word.
OOH, Lindon...
Your 10:00 PM post was right on the mark. That's where you excel--THE WORD OF GOD. THAT, my sister, is a truly wonderful thing. I am so thankful that you are here with us, too.
Dee
Dee wrote: "JMO, Terry Smith, and Bepatient are all good"
Dee,
Thank you for the kind compliment. You assume too much! I didn't want to leave you off my departing list since you've been so kind. I think you are good too!
JMO, no offense, but you don't know nearly as much as you think you do.
I don't know who "John and Sara" are, so no, I wouldn't be "apologizing with tears." I don't know what in the world you are talking about. When you can show me where I've said anything about this "John and Sara" on this blog, then maybe we'll talk.
JMO: "I think you are good too! "
According to scripture, none of us is good.
And we all know Dee's sentence was taken out of context. Not nice. Deceptive is the word I would use for it.
jmo said,
And finally, I know it should be your rather than you but it my way of showing a little humility...relatively speaking..LOL
WHAT????
JUST MY OPINION, JUST MY OPINION!!
Please don't go! It will be so boring without you here.
I see you left me out again on your 10:15 exit post. Still no answer on those pesky little questions I've been asking for two days now.
And you'll be back when? This weekend? If not, Monday, I suppose. I can hardly contain myself. Have a lovely business adventure.
Dee
Just My Opinion said...
lindon, slander is a malicious, false, and defamatory statement. I stand by my comment on truth or lies. It would be one thing if you guys personally knew these men that you discussed and have some experience with any dishonest acts or know them not to have integrity. But you are doing character assassination on men you don't personally know. All you know is what you've read on these blogs. And that being the case is ignorance of facts.
9:35 PM, February 27, 2007
I know these men and I know what the truth is. I stand behind everything I've mentioned. God knows the truth and that's where I find my comfort. I don't care whether you believe what I say or not. That has no bearing on the truth.
Repentance is what we need in Bellevue. Why do you think the darkness hangs over Bellevue. Nobody is happy about that. Things need to change. Change for good will occur when Truth is first.
jmo wrote:
"Dee,
"Just for the record, the reference to struggle was in getting a motion before the church. If you can't quote me within the text of the conversation just don't bother trying to slander me."
Steve
8:32 PM, February 27, 2007
Wonder if that "Steve" thing was a slip up or if he's just trying to bait people. Not biting now, but will definitely file that away for future reference, Steve.
This reminds me of the time last month when "heardenuf" signed one of his posts as "Perrin." When that was pointed out, I guess he decided he'd "talkedenuf" because I don't think he was heard from again, at least not with that screen name.
lindon,
If I'm blind or in error, I pray to God that it's on the side of love.
"These are men who do not take scripture seriously."
I'm sorry, but you're wrong.
HP
Here is a verse that will serve as an anecdote to JMO's worldly thinking and boasting:
Mark 10:29-32
29Jesus said, "Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, 30who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life. 31But many who are first will be last, and the last first."
"I'm sorry, but you're wrong."
I just proved it with scripture. You just do not want to believe it. Are you saying what Paul wrote is wrong?
lindon, I e-mailed you.
"Wonder if that "Steve" thing was a slip up or if he's just trying to bait people. Not biting now, but will definitely file that away for future reference, Steve."
Steve writes and uses words like a woman.
soc, you have mail
" I certainly don't think I need to tell Him that He knows what is best for me. He knew me before I was born...."
Amen. It is called Sovereignty. He knitted us in our mothers wombs. Ps. 139. My favorite.
Dee,
Ok, I checked back before going to bed...please email me those pesky questions and I promise you that I will take the time to answer you.
Lindon,
You are still wrong and I'd love to show you the wrong approach you are taking with God's Word. You my friend are on dangerous ground.
Truth...no way you know those guys. I'm calling you out on that point. But if you are willing to stand up for what you wrote when I return I will ask you a few questions that will reveal if you actually know these men. See no pop quiz for you...
socwork,
I honestly do not recall any facts that you've presented concerning these men. Email me and I'll eat my words if you have anything that shows these me to be dishonest or have no integrity.
Now I am gone....cause I'm 2 hours past my bed time and 6 hours to my get up time.
NASS,
I don't know about the name reference; but, even if it is truly a person named "Steve", we have more than one in leadership at BBC and it would be hard to decide. I really don't care whether it's JMO's real name or not. Ask the Steves at BBC to write a short essay and see which one makes the most grammatical and spelling errors.
Anyway, I know you realize that this JMO/Steve may not actually be as cozy with men in leadership as he/she says. It could just be some smart young person enjoying creating an "adult" conversation and fooling all the older folks on here. Kids are smart, especially the ones in their 20s.
Dee
JMO, I won't be e-mailing you. Have a good night though.
"lindon:You are still wrong and I'd love to show you the wrong approach you are taking with God's Word. You my friend are on dangerous ground."
If I have misrepresented scripture the Lord will rebuke me as I pray about this daily. I take it that seriously. I take the Word very seriously.
And I am very discerning about who I take any teaching from.
JMO, Looks like your pro Gaines friends are taking over for you since you are leaving. The timing was perfect.
lindon,
One of my seminary professors stated a simple but profound truth in my first year:
"A prooftext without a context is a pretext." You haven't proven anything tonight.
I don't know Steve Gaines from Adam. I do know Wayne van Dersteeg. I know John Crockett's family. And if you knew them, you'd feel the same way I do. They are men of God, filled with the Holy Spirit. They do not deserve to be beaten up on this blog any more than Doyle Long, Joe Jernigan, Phil Newberry, and Steve McCune. I've spoken up for them, and I'll speak up for anyone I believe to be
faithful to the Lord.
Truly, I respect your posts, Lindon, both here and on AOG's blog. You have a deep knowledge of scripture, and an obvious desire for justice. I'm not looking for petty arguments, for they benefit no one.
But in this case, I won't remain silent. God proclaimed a woe on those who declare good to be evil, and those who declare evil to be good.
If you speak out against John Crockett and Wayne van Dersteeg, then please include Hope Patterson in your rhetoric, because I stand with them.
Hope, YOU are the one who said they were like Paul. I pointed out very CLEAR teachings in the Pauline letters which have not been followed by Gaines OR the leadership. How you can reconcile that, I will never know.
I never said you should NOT love them. How silly. But go back and read your first comment concerning this.
If they were like Paul, they would be calling for Gaines resignation. Are they?
"A prooftext without a context is a pretext."
My dear Hope: The guidelines for an elder (minister) are very clear in the Pauline letters. As is the teaching on how to handle the sexually immoral. Please show me how these were taken out of context with the fact that the leadership at BBC ignored these teachings first with PW then with Gaines?
Why are these men not afraid of ignoring very clear scripture?
No, if these men were truly like Paul as you mentioned, they could never sit under the teaching of Gaines.
offline
(Offline)...
I guess this is off topic, but I just have to comment on a story that has been in the news. Apparently some local political and business leaders are being accused of corruption, funds mismanagement, croney-ism, etc. What bothers me is that I am sure that most if not all of the reporters bringing out these accusations do not know these leaders personally, or they would know what wonderful people our local politicians are and how many people they have helped over the years. The news reporters use words like "allegedly" or "sources say" and make strong negative statements that make our local leaders look bad. Why must they keep up these reports, and ask all these questions? Can't they just trust that duly elected officials must have our best interests at heart? The Bible tells us to submit to government, so how can we question government leaders? These news stories make our city look bad to the rest of the nation. If we were good citizens we would not listen to accusations against our elected officials. And if we really thought things were so bad, we would not try to cause strife and division within the community, but we would run for office ourselves to try to work within the system to make this a better city. Or we would leave and find another town more to our liking. Why can't we all just get along? Have you EVER heard of such a thing??
junk99mail
Boy, loved your post. It is a sad day when we hold our politicians to a higher standard than we do our pastor. :(
junk99mail: What a great post! Boy, I've just never heard of anything like that! JMO needs to go tell them the error of their ways- he'll get them straightened out. (don't know if JMO's a he or she- used he as a generic form in this case)
Trollcakes said...
All anyone needs to know is what the culprits have admitted, in order to doubt their fitness as leaders, much less of a church.
9:41 PM, February 27, 2007
CAKES,
THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!
Acts 5
32"And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."
I'm certain that Ezekiel has posted this before, but last night, my best friend told me to read Ezekiel 34 - what an eye-opener, especially vs 3-5. God's Word is so powerful and living!
SNAP VS. SOUTHERN BAPTIST CONVENTION NEWS STORY
It is most unfortunate that this happened to SNAP, as they would have no reason to lie and much to lose...when SBC could trot out a document proving they had responded to SNAP inquires.
But I have sent tons of letters to SBC over the years, documenting Warren's false teachings and they have never responded...and I will happily declare that publicly. That the Southern Baptist Press would publish this story is not surprising since they are collaborators with Rick Warren's SB and Global agenda and when a story comes out that Rick Warren has produced another victim at Gardendale Baptist Church in Corpus Christi which removed 165 resisters, what does the SB Press do but write a story as though the PDC victims deserved it. I have received responses from SB pastors and Paige Patterson, President of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary attacking me when I brought to his attention that one of his professors Daniel Morgan had accused me and Paul Proctor of slander against Rick Warren. I demanded proof in a March 12, 2005 letter. Neither he nor the professor provided any...nor has any PDC pastor...SB or otherwise. I appealed to the administation and a number of professors at SWBS and even exercised Matthew 18 and brought this before the pastor, deacons and members of of Daniel Morgan's Church. Their only reply was to say how wonderful Daniel Morgan is. Furthermore, BBC has still not responded to Saving Bellevue or Integrity Counts BBC members or really materially to SNAP. So their sin remains! So what material or effectual response to the BBC situation has the SBC provided for all that they have legally and legitimately requested? What response has Tennessee Baptist Convention and the Baptist Reflector provided for that matter when I confronted them too? I emailed almost everyone on their staff.
Baptist & Reflector:
This is the same Tennessee Baptist Conventions journal for Tennessee Southern Baptists and SB Churches. It is supposed to be a news journal...and should therefore be balanced in presenting both sides of the story without partiality or spin. Yet it is effectively another mouthpiece for Rick Warren's
Purpose-Driven agenda and programs. Historically it has run articles promoting Rick Warren. But note that there is not one single article in it which challenges or refutes Rick Warren's teachings as
unbiblical. And note further that there is not a single article defending, let alone even presenting the opposition's point of view at Bellevue Baptist in its current crisis. Yet its Editor Lonnie Wilkey was a featured speaker at this Tennessee Baptist Convention at Bellevue Baptist Church in November of 2006 and has not to date answered any of my concerns. It is a legitimate question to ask him what his agenda is! Only one response from their staff...but NO ONE addressed my proof of Warrenite teaching at BBC.
Instead of releasing this story the Southern Baptist Press should be publishing a story of how ashamed they are for the role they played in being another Rick Warren accomplice. They should be asking how much money they can provide for the Warrenite and BBC victims. First true repentance then restitution instead of trumpeting their innocence like Pharisees! That the SBC would bring up this infraction by SNAP is the height of hypocrisy. But this article only confirmed to me how honest and honorable SNAP is, but it did nothing to build any confidence in the SBC!
Now on the heels of spurning the petition to delay ordaining Mr. David Coombs, we now await the canonization of the SBC!
Hey Liberty in Christ,
blah,blah,blah,blah.......
Shut up about Rick Warren already will ya?!!! You, Lindon, and iamaresistor are really, really getting old with the same old tune.
libertyinchrist,
Show me one unbiblical thing Rick Warren has done or taught that Jesus didnt do.
Petition mister,
Petition was a dismal failure. Goal 2000, signatures 408.
Tim, you said the Lord laid that petition on your heart and you were directed by the Holy Spirit. Let the FACTS speak for themselves.
Please note for anyone reading, Lindon point blank accused SG of heresies Sunday night. She stated he took the scriptures out of context. Strong accusation against a pastor preaching God's word.
She was confronted, because the burden of proof rests upon her shoulders. She refused to back up her accusations and take each scripture to show us the correct context and prove her accusations.
Response from another poster, do not discuss with anyone who disagrees, they are the devil.
Lindon's response, good advice.
libertyinchrist, lindon, ima, and others sounding the alarm - hang in there.
Just wanted you to know that at least one in "lurkland" shares your belief concerning the PDL/PDC/emergent/humanist/mysticism..movement which is gaining so much momentum.
Rick Warren seems to be leading the masses onto the "broad" way of the "Angel of Light".
I have been so disappointed in some of the pastors that I had considered amoung the greats- men like David Jeremiah, Josh McDowell, Charles Stanley, Chuck Swindol - just to name a few I have come across who are openly endorsing the men and their works that are on this road to damnation.
I have been reading as much as possible concerning this movement and am appalled at how easily people who are professing Christians are willingly following this path.
It matters not whether you believe what I have written. Do a little research and you will find out for yourself.
"Show me one unbiblical thing Rick Warren has done or taught that Jesus didnt do."
1. Synagogue3000
"She was confronted, because the burden of proof rests upon her shoulders. She refused to back up her accusations and take each scripture to show us the correct context and prove her accusations."
I laid out 2 in the last thread. However, this is, I believe, the third time I have written this about your comments: It would be much better for those sitting under Gaines teaching to take the outline and study each verse that he uses in context of the book it was taken from and prayerfully ask for illumination.
Let the Holy Spirit teach us the truth of God's Holy Word.
I have also recommended John 17 for understanding Unity as it is meant in scripture.
The trouble with all open forums, is that they ( by design and intent ) invite strife as well as TRUTH.
Darkness and Light, all in one cyberworld setting.
Each calling the other ...darkness
The Biblical and sure fire test of such posters is the complete adherence to the Pure Word of God, ..not simply statements purporting devotion or adherence, ...but rather, the unmistakeable and perpetually clear evidence of same.
Also known as having the Mind of Christ, or 'abiding " in THE WORD.
Because.. those who do not "ABIDE" ( PERPETUALLY LOVE and LIVE IN ) THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST (THE WORD) , HATH NEITHER THE FATHER, NOR THE SON.
Engaging such a one in debate and dialogue is not only pointless, but is willful disobedience, since the devil is a master at debate, having rejected ABSOLUTE TRUTH, WHILE IN THE PRESENCE OF ABSOLUTE TRUTH.
Jesus Christ, while on earth, NEVER , EVER , discussed options or " points " that the accuser Satan made...
Rather , Jesus lifted up the SWORD OF THE SPIRIT...THE POWERFUL , INSPIRED, WRITTEN WORD OF GOD HIS FATHER.
Eternal Lessons to live by methinks.
In spite of the panicked shrieks and howls FROM THE PEANUT GALLERY.
: )))
terrysmith,
enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ovJ5nWwF5k
carolt: Rick Warren seems to be leading the masses onto the "broad" way of the "Angel of Light"
Bingo. And it all starts with putting mere men on pedestals and not knowing the Word. I was once lost in it, too.
Isaiah 2:22
terrysmith,
enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cB8HY1uO9w
After reading LibertyinChrist's 9:49 AM post, I am wondering if anyone here knows the source of a quote Dr. Rogers used more than once in his sermons. It goes like this:
"Who is it knocks so loud?
A lonely little sin.
'Slip through I answered.'
And soon all hell was in."
Brothers and Sisters, we ARE in the last days. This conflict within the SBC should make that evident to most if not all of the true believers of the Lord Jesus Christ.
The hostile and silencing reactions and remarks of the leadership of the SBC and in our churches to those of us who would dare to ask questions about the PDL movement should be enough to set off our internal warning system. For those who have considered leaving this blog, here is a new reason to stay. Would you have known what is going on in the SBC even as we speak and who knows for how long prior to this? I am appalled not only by this fact, but also by the reaction of the SBC leadership to concerned questioners. What is even more shocking is the long-standing reputations of the men/pastors who are seeking to further this change. I would have never, ever thought such would be possible.
Please, those of you who are the scholars out there, would you for the sake of a good many of us explain the PDL (Purpose Driven Life) movement and why we should not want to be a part of a church and perhaps (sadly) even an entire denomination that has gone to it? When we have long-trusted men wanting to move our entire denomination to it, I think it deserves to be explained in its entirety so that trusting followers will not be mislead and will be able to state WHY it is that they do not want to be a part of it.
Members of Bellevue Baptist Church would surely have somewhat of a conflict going on in their minds since our long-time pastor, Dr. Adrian Rogers, allowed the PDL/Rick Warren outline to be taught in the Bible Fellowship Classes for a number of weeks. I can see where those of us who trusted Dr. Rogers' teachings and respected him as a diligent keeper his flock might now be confused when his friend-pastors are now attempting to further this methodology.
Dee
P.S. I would also welcome the argument of those in leadership who see this movement as acceptable in the light of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Go here to listen to Pastor David Wilkerson teaching on the seeker friendly 'gospel of accomodation'.
http://coffeetradernews.blogspot.com/2007/02/rebuke-on-purpose-drivenseeker-friendly.html
terry smith said
Tim, you said the Lord laid that petition on your heart and you were directed by the Holy Spirit. Let the FACTS speak for themselves.
Piglet says:
Don't presume that God wasn't in it because of some goal that was not met. In fact, when someone told me that we wouldn't get enough signatures to stop the ordination,I began to think about this and came to a conclusion:
Who says God's purpose was to stop the ordination? Heknew the outcome.
These men who did this have free will and they proceeded despite the unrest in the church. Just before the ordination they did not ask for those who disapprove because they already knew of 400 people who dissapproved. Is this not very telling? This church is no longer "congregation approved". This was a screaming example of that fact as it was a blatant disregard for the concerns of many members (statisticians know that petitions represent aprox.20% of those who have the same opinion).
The petition provided an opportunity for members to have a voice, even if it was ignored.
Many who viewed the petition saw names of people they knew and trusted. It was an encouragement to know others have the same concerns.
The voices of 400people was heard in those few days.
Those men who laid hands on Coombs will answer for their actions if God was not in it.
But I think much was accomplished by the petiton.
We tend to put God in a box and say our puny efforts will produce no results -but we are to be obedient in all things. You think David questioned God when he gathered his stones? If God moved in Tim's heart and he was obedient that is what matters. We may never know the reason or all that was accomplished through that obedience. We are just gathering the stones.
Don told us (in part)...
Jesus Christ, while on earth, NEVER , EVER , discussed options or " points " that the accuser Satan made...
Rather , Jesus lifted up the SWORD OF THE SPIRIT...THE POWERFUL , INSPIRED, WRITTEN WORD OF GOD HIS FATHER.
Eternal Lessons to live by methinks.
In spite of the panicked shrieks and howls FROM THE PEANUT GALLERY.
: )))
11:12 AM, February 28, 2007
*********
No, Don. I think you are exactly right in your entire statement now and previously. I have been praying about my own future decisions regarding participating in this blog, moving my BBC membership, and even not joining another SBC church at all. I want to do what the Lord would want me to do.
Please, as a man of wisdom, would you pray for me and others who also face these concerns? Perhaps it IS the Lord's will for us to go elsewhere to scatter seed and proclaim His Word.
Thank you, Lord Jesus, for this modern technology that enables us to talk to so many fellow believers in these troubled times and to learn more of the truth of Your Word as displayed on these screens for the whole world to see and hear. Amen.
Dee
Terry smith said...
"libertyinchrist,
Show me one unbiblical thing Rick Warren has done or taught that Jesus didnt do."
RESPONSE:
Show me one Scripture in which Jesus Christ, the Apostles, or Old Testament Prophets ever spoke favorably about the demon-possessed, demon inspired, atheists, mystics, Judaizers, and necromancers to the people, as Rick Warren has published in his books and speeches?
Show me one place where Jesus promoted the leaven of Herod, as Warren has done via Peter Drucker and his three-legged stool? When in fact, Jesus warned AGAINST this leaven.
When Jesus Christ quoted Scripture he would say "it is written". Paul commended the Bereans for searching the Scriptures to be sure it was true too. Rick Warren says a number of things about 40 Days that are written in Scripture. So go ahead and look them up and you will find what he says is NOT written (in ANY Bible translation Warren uses or promotes). So this is real easy. What Jesus said is true. What Rick Warren says is false. If you don't believe my report, send me an email with subject line "PDC Powerpoint Presentation request" to yourpacemusic@yahoo.com, and I will send you the proof.
Finally, you want a list of teachers promoted by Warren's whose teachings are clearly not what Jesus Christ would say, go to:
"Rick Warren Authentic or Counterfeit List of the False Teachers promoted by him":
http://www.abrahamic-faith.com/
James/IN_HIS__Rick_Warren's_OWN_WORDS_for_general_use.pdf
I sure hope that "I am a resister" and "Don" weigh in on this!
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