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«Oldest ‹Older 601 – 628 of 628Charlie Fox said:
Some claim to believe in the theory of the elect, meaning that God has already elected to save some of us and reject others. A 19th – century
African preacher was once asked to give his explanation of the theory of election. He said, “Well, brethren, the truth of the matter is “The Lord He is always voting for a man, and the devil he is always voting against him;
then the man himself votes, and that breaks the tie.”
Charlie, credit for this comment is sometimes given to Hershel Hobbs(dont know if originated with him)...only problem with explanation, not scriptural.
However: 1st Thessalonians 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
the lexicon for election says
eklogh- chosen, the act of picking out or choosing
1a) of the act of God’s free will by which before the foundation of the world he decreed his blessings to certain persons
1b) the decree made from choice by which he determined to bless certain persons through Christ by grace alone
if you notice from the verses, Paul notes the preaching of the gospel (external means) was accompanied by the Holy Ghost (internal power) and was necessary for their salvation (and still is for souls to be saved today!); that is his conclusion of their election; not that he knew beforehand, but that GOD had, according to the meaning of the word
Charlie, this is by no means to debate your thoughts on the matter, but only to give food for thought, or a different perspective; grace to you
all2jesus,
The discussion at hand was about DC's responses. The discussion was about the legality of him recording the conversation.
You talk about being transparent and open, how is this transparent and open?
I stand by my opinion of why the transcript was linked on the web.
excuse me, should read was not about Dc's responses
bepatient,
are you changing sides?
be patient
So you have no idea what to do.
Rebuking a brother is unpleasant and conflict is not always comfortable but necessary.
It is time for truth.
"The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light."
Romans 13:12
Memphis
Without the recording would you have accepted Josh's testimony as fact?
Romans 9:14 ¶ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
but even then we must cry out:
Romans 11:33 ¶ O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
and by all means and endeavors:
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
All of the discussion boils down to this in my opinion:
Steve Gaines is disqualified. He is no longer "blameless." That qualification does not require a pastor to be sinless, but it does require them not to have been involved in something that causes their witness to be impugned either from within the church or from the viewpoint of the lost world.
1 Timothy 3:7 says, "Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil."
He is disqualified. there are far more than 2 or 3 witnesses: the church has split. There are thousands who understand this. Sadly, there are even more outside of Bellevue who see clearly about this. How much more damage will be allowed by the laymen who prop him up?
Gentlemen, put together some kind of package that will allow him to step aside--the sooner the better. Please don't wait until he is charged by the D.A. or until he makes some other error or until he finds you to be no longer useful. Whatever capital you have left--use it to preserve what is left of the fellowship of BBC.
This has been a train wreck. This is an ongoing tradgedy. Not only have long-time members of Bellevue left who will likely never come back, but the community will not soon forget this fiasco. Wake up!
If there is to be further meanness or retaliation toward members--Heaven is watching, the church family is watching, the community is watcing, the SBC is watching. Do right!
Each time leadership has stonewalled members who have called for Mt. 18 to be followed the audience has grown. That forum was denied over and over. In heaven the audience will be even larger than the one reading the Commercial Appeal. Fear God rather than man!
Jesus walks in the midst of his candlesticks and those whom He loves He rebukes. That is the response of love and that is what points toward repentance.
jmo
piglet,
excellent points. both posts.
Piglet, if they never got the names and the letters were sent certified mail...what else would you need?
and as far as his testimony to whether or not that happened?? I do not know. I have never spoken to DC or to JM, I know I would not have gone as far as calling him a liar or anything like that.
so there is your answer to the question. So here is one:
How was that being open and transparant?
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness
1st Corinthians 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth
2nd Corinthians 13:8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.
Galatians 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
Ephesians 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
1st Thessalonians 2:13 ¶ For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
2nd Thessalonians 2:13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth
2nd Timothy 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.19 ¶ Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
2nd Peter 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
1st John 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
1st John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
3rd John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
junk99mail,
I've read your posts...I appreciate what you have to say...do me the honor of stopping by my blog sometime..the link is on the homepage.
OC,
NO NO NO. I am simply saying that if you think there is a problem, don't compound it. I think that there were problems with communication long before SG.
all2jesus
You have mail.
25+
You summed it up so well.
Thank you for your words.
Memphis said:
I stand by my opinion of why the transcript was linked on the web.
That it was done as a juvenile prank to thumb a nose at DC? This is not a game.
I too cringed when that tape was published on the web. But then I realized the only reason anything about problems at BBC is on the web is because those in leadership have refused to deal with them offline and privately. It's been tried and tried to no avail. The only practical means members have found to hold these leaders accountable is the web.
memphis
I doubt that DC would have allowed JM to tape the conversation. JM was protecting himself.
In the current atmosphere, where the contents of meetings have been misrepresented by those attending,it ,unfortunately,has become necessary to document the facts.
Without a video, Gaines would not have apologized (nor probably admitted to)his statements at Gardendale.
Without audio Gaines would not have apologized for statements at Union City.
I think it speaks volumes that DC wasn't interested in what the law says, and the tone he used with Josh, etc.
Of course, YOU'RE just steamed that it was taped - not that a law has been broken. VERY TELLING.
bepatient,
ok, I understand. But don't you think doing nothing compounds the problems?
piglet
(offline)
oc
offline.
be patient
like I said, I don't know the right path, I can just see that this is the wrong one
How can you say this with a certainty? Personally I think that for some reason (personal relationships or otherwise) you are very uncomfortable with an approach that is confrontational in nature. I just don't see how there is any other approach in such a situation.
Tell me this, was Nathan wrong to confront King David? (YOU Oh King, are that man)
Josh has outlined his reasoning and addressed arguments concerning the rightness or wrongness of his actions. As distasteful as this has been, I do not see how an intellectually honest person can disagree!!!
Be honest. Do you really think this is the wrong path, or are you just disturbed by the nature of it, because of it's negativity and confrontational nature?
I'm disturbed by it. I think every honest Christian person should be disturbed by it. However, (with apologies to Pres. Bush.) we didn't ask for this conflict, we didn't ask for things to "done" the way they are, but by golly we will fight the war that is waged against us.
By it's behavior against the congregation, the Administration put us in the position of having to go down this "disturbing" path. "They" want to behave in the manner of big time Corporate Executives? Then you have to treat them like Big Time Corporate Executives.
"They" are more concerned about legal exposure, personal image and personal position than advancing the cause of Christ, and ministering to the flock.
Jim Haywood makes the point on his site about putting Corporate Executives as Associate Pastors as opposed to those called into the Ministry. I'll go a little aside here and point out that this just so happens to be a characteristic of purpose driven church's, but it also leads to these "ministers" having a business mentality. And as a member of the business community, I can tell you one thing. People are not "the most important thing" in business.
Leads me to another sore issue. Rob Mullins was a true pastor. No one loved his people more than Rob. Rob Loves People. It's obvious. I would dare say that most "specialty" ministers in large churches are simply administrators. Rob was not. And we all saw what happened to him.
Again, simply MHO.
-FG
confused in va
You should add to each of your points "a pastor with 25+ years experience as senior pastor of large southern baptist churches."
Noticed that DC is being ordained on February 25th. Interesting.
Bepatient,
I appreciate the tone and honesty of your posts and responses regardig the DC issue. I hear what you are saying, but at the end of the day, whether we agree or disagree IS NOT THE REAL ISSUE. Again, I do appreciate your dialog.
I do not know JM. I do appreciate what he has done now and in the past. I am not ready to start a fan club for anyone in this situation. I do respect anyone who will seek truth because it COST EACH ONE MUCH!
I find it interesting that JM gave a very thorough response to peoples concerns to the taping. This is much more than we have recieved from SG or anyone at BBC. Whether you agree or disagree, you heard his heart and thoughts.
As one who has been in those uncomfortable circumstances, I WOULD TAPE IT EVERY TIME! I wish I had thought about it. Not to stick it to someone, but in defense of truth.
I desire the same as you posted. However, people still do not understand that after OVER A YEAR of these attempts, twisted words, demonizing those with questions, you just realize that THEY will not allow dialog to happen. WHY?
To me, there is only one reason.
This has become the problem with MEGA Churches. They hide behind their size. Isn't it just like the US Government to tell you that you should trust them? They know what to do with your money better than you do? You wouldn't understand anyway? They are smart, we are dumb?
Example:
Tithing undesignated.
Translation; Let us (leadership)decide where your money goes. We will be your Holy Spirit. God shows us where your money goes, He does not show you...?
I just read the paper from the other day and saw where a Rabbi in NJ (previously in Memphis) was just charged for stealing @ $85,000 out of an imprest fund. This was money available to be used at the Rabbi's discretion.
SG has a deiscretionary fund. Dr Rogers had a discretionary fund. These things are not wrong, but there should be accountability.
Ask Deacon 4545 what SG discretionary found amount is? If you would like 45, go ahead and get it out of the way and tell us what Dr Rogers was too.
By the way, why hasn't Deacon4545 answered ANY of my questions, yet claims to "KNOW"? Deacon, would you please answer this one or is this information only for select people, well, like yourself to know if you are close enough to the top? Do you all see what I am typing?
Anyway, the issue is WE ARE ALL MAN! WE ARE ALL CAPABLE OF SIN AND GREED! For some reason, these men feel that they are not and do not need to be accountable.
They feel they are the ONLY ONES able to RUN BBC. This is why they serve on so many committees (AND SUB-COMMITTES that are not published). This is why they remain Chairmen of committees for year after year. They cannot trust anyone not in their club.
When I tell you this, it is not to BASH these men. It is only to let those who have wanted to know the truth but had no way of knowing. It is for those that followed "blindly and trusted" as I did. I tell you this because they borrowed my reputation and told you I was 100% behind SG. That was not true!
This is serious.
Who divided?
Who caused disention?
Who spread rumors?
Who deceived?
Who lied?
Who betrayed our trust?
It was not those who asked questions. Questions were only asked because the trust was shaken, and now broken.
ATTENTION!
A NEW THREAD HAS BEEN STARTED. PLEASE MOVE UP!
Thank you,
NBBCOF
Couldn't leave this thread sitting on 666 posts.
" And as a member of the business community, I can tell you one thing. People are not "the most important thing" in business."
Financeguy, As a corporate trainer for 15 years I can tell you something about this: If they say, people are our most important asset, they usually aren't. As a matter of fact, if they make a big deal about how much they love their people, watch out.
Always watch actions...forget words.
Fruit.
lindon,
Reminds of that countries with the "Peoples Republic of...." usually aren't "People's Republics" either!
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