From the new page on Bellevue's website:
"Our new Administrative Pastor’s webpage will serve to communicate progress and provide new information on church administration issues. Long term, this page will evolve into a location where church members can view policies, procedures, current financial information, and statistics about church activities and church life. In the future, we hope to incorporate a way for members to submit questions and receive answers online.
"We desire to be open and transparent in every aspect of church life. It’s our prayer that this webpage will provide a better means of communication between church administration and members."
So far the only two items on that page are letters from former corporate-world-chief-financial-officer-soon-to-be-ordained-minister David Coombs are two letters which are here and here.
Now, read the Tennessee code and letters from Bellevue members requesting information from church leadership as permitted by Tennessee code here and judge for yourself.
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I agree - I always try to give the benefit of the doubt before I made a determination unless the Lord sways me as He did with SG. I would hope DC has enough wisdom to know he is being duped if he truly is - this bunch is keen in their process of manipulation - after all, they duped Dr Rogers.
Scary thoughts....
It's alright. buddy. I counsel juvenile delinquents, much like those we have been seeing on here from time to time. No problem.
Seldom a day goes by that I don’t check what has been posted on http://christianresearchnetwork.com/, which is the new name of Slice of Laodicea. Today, a pleasant surprise awaited me and I’m sure, countless others as I ran across a post I was already familiar with since I also routinely check out the posts at Coffee Trader-News and Views by our own Lindon, who regularly post on our Bellevue blog. Seems one of Lindon’s post had made it’s way to the Christian Research Network website! So…I guess you might could say that we now are blessed with somewhat of a ‘celebrity’ among our group. Which to me is not a surprising thing…I know how brilliant she is. And I also know how grounded she is in scripture and I also know how much she loves God. *smiling*
Let’s give her a hand……*clapping* *clapping* *clapping* *whistles and cheers*
You can find it here .
And here it is:
Liar, Liar Pants on Fire is Truth
Published February 17th, 2007 by Editor in Christian Life
“Lying has become so accepted within our culture that it has infiltrated the worldly church.” CoffeeTrader-News & Views has a balanced look at a real issue within Christianity today in this post here.
terry smith
With all due respect, I have read your 11:17 post and it appears that you are saying that a pastor who wants to bring the lost into the church must behave in a way that the lost can "connect" with?
Being a holy pastor who is blameless may turn off the lost or baby christians?
This is truly sad.
If Gaines has a heart for the lost but not pastoring the saved, he should be an evangelist and let us get apastor who will shepherd the sheep.
Of course, in order to evagelize he would STILL have to deal with the obvious sinful attitudes and behaviour we have seen, so we're still where we started - the need for the leadership to deal with their sin.
http://www.ait.fbcms.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=158&Itemid=38
Here is the url to the conference imaresistor was talking about. if you can go, you really should. it is only 60 bucks and not too far from Memphis. Check it out.
that's right, piglet. He would still need to be honest and upright, in any 'called' position.
Okay, here it is, I hope. Sorry about that.
terry smith said
As I read through the gospels and the epistles the overall impression I receive is the following:
1. Those who keep and do God's word, God will reside in them
2. Forgiveness is a high priority
3. Unity is a high priority
4. Love is a high priority
5. Religious People (judaizers) is a low priority
6. Living a life marked with peace, love and service should be our goal
Piglet says:
You look at your list, you will see that number one is OBEDIENCE.
Terry, we totally agree on this. God says if we love Him we will keep His commandments. It is only AFTER we do this that we can pursue the goals of unity, etc.
Standing for truth and righteousness and AGAINST sin, especially when it is openly practiced by those held to a higher standard, is paramount in our role as obedient servants.
It is better to obey than to sacrifice. It matters not what we do for Him if we do not deal with our sin corporately or individually.
Okay, here is the link to Jeff Noblit's website, Anchored in Truth, which will give you information about the True Chruch Conference that Lin and I BOTH keep telling you about. You know that if BOTH of us are telling you about it, you really need to go. :)
2 chron. 7:14 wrote
This is one redeemed sinner, humbled by the love and grace of Jesus, who will stand, even in a minority of one, for truth, integrity,
honesty, and obeying God.
Ruth Ann
Piglet says:
Bless you, Ruth Ann.
He has told you. O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you, But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God?
Micah 6:8
One of my favorites, just thought I'd throw this in. What grace!!!
ima, you are too kind. No one is more surprised than me to see that link. I am a weak 'cracked pot' saved by sola gratia.
JUDGE NOT LEST YOU BE JUDGED-THE MOST MISQUOTED VERSE IN AMERICA...
from Understanding the Times with Brannon Howse
I have heard so much, as many of us undoubtedly have, about the verse in the Bible about 'judge not lest you be judged'. It has been a topic on this blog many times over. This scripture has done others a lot of good in that it has caused me on many occassions to have fast access to a shut mouth, which might in the natural state like to run on it's own. So I suppose, as well, that this verse might also serve as our own personal mantra in not pointing the finger. We want no fingers pointing back at us do we? Well, on a more serious note, I have had serious thoughts about this scripture...and think it might be taken out of context many times to suit the needs of the one in the line of fire...the one on the other side of the pointed finger. On many occassions, my mind has rushed to the scripture about the fruit.
Brannon Howse has something to say on the subject and if you are interested in hearing this, here it is.
Sorry...
Here it is.
ima,
great post, and so true. Thanks.
Lindon, good job! I appreciate your wisdom and your humility. You are an excellent example of humble servitude. Thankyou.
This is how one man viewed his pastor; this is borrowed from AOG's blog; this may not be in keeping with today's topic, whatever that might be; Ms. Moderator, can it if you must; AOG, hope you dont mind, but this is worth reading.
'Look yonder at that man in the pulpit. He is not comely, not much a sight to behold. His suit is not well pressed nor his shoes well shined. His hair as well as his skin is weathered after years of toiling as to provide for his family. Shake his hand and you wonder if it is lined with sandpaper. If in an affectionate moment he were to share an embrace, you might be left with the impression that you embraced a pole of iron.
His grammar is not always correct. He would be the first to tell you that he is no expert in the Greek and Hebrew languages, though his knowledge of both exceeds that of most of those trained in the seminaries. His voice is booming, but he never shouts. His accent is pronounced, but his words are never garbled. Listen but for a moment, and even the fool recognizes the passion in his voice. Listen for a while, and you realize that wisdom has come to rest in the breast of this man. The Sovereignty of God and the exaltation of Christ are the clear template and subject of every sermon he preaches, yet you will never hear the same sermon twice. He has more knowledge concerning Soteriology and Eschatology than any man that I know, yet has the ability to teach so that the simple-minded can grasp that which beforehand seemed out of reach. To many who are blessed to call him preacher, the most painful part of his preaching is the conclusion, for you hope that he will preach for just a few minutes more. You'll never see him stand at the front of a church pleading for people to come forward and ‘give’ their heart to Jesus. The preaching of the gospel is the invitation to the souls of men, and this preacher has the patience to wait upon the LORD to do the work that He must do to save a sinner.
He could have long ago moved on to greener pastures and to a more ‘thriving area’. Yet for two decades he has tended the ‘little flock’ that GOD has entrusted to him. While we could have always have given him more(and we have tried), he has always pointed out the fact that GOD has always blessed him; Oh he isn't so prideful that he is beyond receiving help when he needs it, but he would much rather help someone else. Our offerings have always been a private matter, but in a church as small as ours, it is really no secret that preacher gives more to the missionary that we support than we give him.
He has never been heavy handed, but has always been stern. He has never been outspoken, but has always chosen his words wisely. Arrogance breeds more of the same, humility chases it away. True leaders don't have to ask men to follow. It is amazing how quickly men will yield to honesty. When problems arise, our pastor has never asked us ‘What do you think we should do?’ He calmly says, ‘What saith the scriptures?’ To date, the scripture has brought us to every solution.
He has never preached to large audiences or ‘packed’ houses. No convention or denomination has ever recognized his achievements or lauded him with praises. He is not a household name and he doesn't get invited to be the guest speaker at conferences and seminars. The parish preachers look down their noses at him, and some have gossiped fiercely about him being a ‘hard shell Calvinist.’ He has never responded in anger or argued with any and has lived his life amongst all in this community in a quiet, peaceful, Christ-like manner.
Look yonder in the pulpit. For the man you see on the LORD’s day, rightfully dividing the word of truth, will display the same countenance and character tomorrow morning and the next day. The humility displayed, that is not feigned. The love that he radiates, that is no counterfeit. He has taught me as much about being Christ-like on Monday as he has on Sunday. I pray daily that the LORD would conform me to the image of His dear son. And I also ask that he would let me be like my preacher'.
Jake
bbc senior...
I am afraid you are probably correct in your observations - I just hate to see another man's reputation soiled to protect those who don't care. But, he is a grown man, you would think that he would be wiser than to let this happen to him and his family.
Amos.
Whoa, what a post! The way it is in some churches and the way it should be in every church. Thanks.
bbc senior citizen,
Not to praise you either in a worldly sense, but just to say 'thank you' for sharing with us your years of wisdom and obvious straightness of character and spiritual discernment. I am glad to hear you will not quickly be moving your membership, for in the Lord's timing, this will be resolved. Your own quote reveals that you know the same thing that the Spirit is telling me. You said,
"Why did God allow this horrible secret to remain hidden for so long? I believe it is possible that God looked down the tunnel of time and in his infinite wisdom chose to allow this to come out at this time to test, refine, expose and possibly even purge some of the leadership that would emerge after Dr. Roger’s retirement (I am not talking about just SG – his core group of staff and lay leaders must be included)."
And you said in reference of JU's post about the new mailing of BBC,
"I think the above post “hit the nail on the head”. God is at work and has been for some months."
The only thing is, if the Lord decides to, He could bring the church buildings down to ashes. (I cannot on here further state the visual picture that is now coming into my head for it would no doubt be misconstrued.) Bellevue would have insurance, rebuild, and be back to 'business' as usual in a relatively short time with the same men in place. But, Brother, you might know you're in the right place again if we eventually see the housecleaning we are needing.
Do you know of a pastor named David McKinley? I did not until a few days ago when Hope Patterson told me on this blog that he was the one who had made a particular statement while preaching at Bellevue in 2001. I did not remember him by name even though I had heard him preach in 2001 and, regretfully, could not attribute to him a specific and crucial quote of his. It was a quote that echoed through my head when I was praying for God to give us the right man for our church. I had even mentioned the quote ("standing on holy ground") to Dr. Rogers in a letter of encouragement and love that I wrote to him after he announced his retirement. In the letter I had written Pastor, I told him we had had some good preachers while he had been on vacation with Joyce back in 2001, but none that compared to him. I said to him, "We even had a pastor who said he felt as though he was 'standing on holy ground'." (My quote is exact as best I can remember.) When I said this in the letter, I did not mention his name because I never could remember who had said it--I only knew it was indelibly etched into my memory. In fact, in that letter I did not mention one single name of any preacher. However, when Dr. Rogers wrote me back, he said to me out of the clear blue something about Steve Gaines and how he was now serving as the main speaker or leader(or something to that effect) of the SBC Pastor's Conference. I took it to mean that Dr. Rogers was, reflectively, sharing with me WHO it was that had said "standing on holy ground". To this day I am wondering if that were not the case--that Dr. Rogers wrongly attributed the quote to Steve Gaines and why? Did someone inaccurately report that to him since he had not been present, or did he remember inaccurately perhaps after listening to recordings of various preachers from the summer of 2001? I don't know. There was no other connection to anything I had said in my letter to Dr. Rogers that would have produced such a response from him. Was this part of God's plan for Bellevue? Now, too, look at our church. Do you suppose what we are experiencing now is God's working to clean out all of those men in leadership who possibly betrayed the trust of Adrian Rogers with their plans and schemes and wrong motives even while Pastor was alive? If so, even today, Our Merciful Lord is allowing these men time to repent, confess, TURN--before it is too late. I see His Hand in ALL of this. They MUST repent and wash their hands of all of this or they will suffer the consequences. Dr. Steve Gaines should resign immediately, and the men who surround him and any others who are truly 'lurking' in the shadows should also resign. They know who they are and, if they don't, there are those at Bellevue who do and would be glad to inform them. If they are not willing to repent in front of the congregation (a group confession would be acceptable), then they should leave Bellevue at the very least. God will not be mocked!
David McKinley should be our pastor. The revelation to me of the true author of the quote caused me to pray and ask the Lord about this. The Lord God has removed the fog from my mind--the fog that before veiled the correct answer-- for a reason. If we had brought David McKinley into Bellevue to begin with, we would have brought him into a dirty church and an unrepentant church. It appears that the Lord did not want this to happen. The Lord also did not want all the other hidden things to continue. There is no way that I think Adrian Rogers knew or was in any way aware of the 'hidden' things. If he had, he would have immediately and forcefully ejected such from the church. But I do think there was an evil present that in the most demonic, devilish way had duped our pastor and most likely wanted him out of the way. The devil's hand is so obvious in this. The fact that that voice--the big, wonderful voice that the Lord so powerfully used for so many years to tell the lost to "Come to Jesus" lay silenced in a hospital bed--speaks volumes to me. Until now, though, not all the pieces of the puzzle were there in my mind. I think now that they are.
We should ask David McKinley to begin fervently praying for Bellevue as though it were his own flock. We need to enlist his help even now for he is God's man for Bellevue. Amen.
We would not have accepted David McKinley before had we not gone through this first. We would have thought we needed more of a prima donna. Now, we will welcome him and become the church that the Lord can approve. You see, we are also a part of what needed to be cleansed. Lord, we thank You and we praise You. Let us never again become so complacent, so comfortable, so lazy, so ignorant.
JESUS IS LORD!
AMEN AND HALLELUHAH!
Dee Ann Richardson
Bartlett, Tennessee
OC,
you can read this on AOG's blog as well as another writing by this author.
blessings,
amos
thanks, Amos. I'll do it. Thanks again.
Amos,
I did the reading. It was a blessing. The simplicity is profound and speaks straight to the heart. Thanks for directing me in this way. Thanks again.
Lindon said...
"ima, you are too kind. No one is more surprised than me to see that link. I am a weak 'cracked pot' saved by sola gratia."
As are we all...cracked pots. But my dear girl...you are gracious at the mercy of our Lord.
amos,
Good to see you back. I've missed you.
bbc senior...
Regarding the "goings on" by the secular leadership while Dr Rogers was Senior Pastor - I know from personal experience that there are those who can fool even the closest of intimate rlationships. One of my family members was married to a person we knew well, he worshiped with us, dined with us, went on vacation with us. They dated four years, were married at Bellevue by a minister on staff who knew them well.
This man turned out to be the ultimate con man, abusive in nature. An agressive liar who had no shame for his behavior or respect and mercy for the lady he professed to "love until death do him part".
I would think that Dr Rogers could have very well seen in Steve Gaines what I saw in this man - and it turned out not to be truth.
repost,why? because I like it...
He has told you. O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you, But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God?
Micah 6:8
oc: sorry about your car, man.
Dee, your post has left me speechless (For once..stop clapping everyone)
That was a big prayerful decision for you to write and publish that on here, wasn't it?
Grace and peace to you my dear sister.
concerned,
It's Ok,thanks for trying though!
concerned wait a minute, you wouldn't be Oprah, would you?
Naw, you couldn't be Oprah, your posts make too much sense. Sorry for the insult. :)
You guys and your Oprah nonsense... who started that anyway?
Oh.
Oh boy, I think I made enemies. Nobody wants to talk to me now. Guess I'll go back to my corner.
sniff...sniff...
socwork who started that anyway?,
Uh... me thinks it be YOU!!!
Ok, don't take responsibility....Socwork Winfey.
oh,I mean Winfrey.
Sure is lonely in here.....
hahaha... I was taking responsibility! That's why I said, "oh."
I should have added that I was blushing and moving my own chair into the corner... hindsight's 20/20!
:)
socwork,
do you think I ran everyone off because I spoke in tongues yesterday? :)
I did receive my email back from IDC today, and I have a question about what I read. If anyone is with IDC, I do have a question to ask. Thanks
Memphis
oc,
If it's lonely 'in here', how lonely is it 'out there?'
oc,
Only because there was no interpreter.
;)
faithnhope,
guess I shouldn't complain. But I do anyway!
socwork,
but I did interpret it. My dog tap danced on my keyboard because he needed to go outside. Now shun me!!
ilovebbc said,
"I'm a little unclear about something though. Like I said, I know I'm behind reading here but I don't understand why you think David should be our next pastor just because he said he felt like he was standing on holy ground when he preached here. I expect or hope everyone who's ever preached in our pulpit could say the same thing. Again, I mean no disrespect. I'm just not fully understanding your 6:06 2/17 post where you said with complete confidence that David should be our next pastor."
****
You may "expect or hope everyone who's ever preached in our pulpit could say the same thing", but the fact is that David McKinley is the only one who did as far as I know. My confidence comes from the Lord.
I have gone back to the thread-before-last which includes February 13 and 14. On February 13, I first made a statement where I mentioned the quote on a post at 10:17 PM. The next morning, Feb. 14, 2007 at 9:08 AM, Hope Patterson had posted to me about the quote not belonging to SG but to DMc. Here are the times of more of this discussion between me and Hope Patterson all on 2/14/07 if you want to go back and see. They are 9:53 AM,10:39,10:49,11:12,11:38 AM, 12:41 PM, and 3:45 PM.
Dee
Perhaps this could explain the removal of the petition:
From the "terms of service"
"The contents of your petition must not be defamatory, libelous, or slanderous."
Lindon said,
"Dee, your post has left me speechless (For once..stop clapping everyone)
That was a big prayerful decision for you to write and publish that on here, wasn't it?"
****
Lindon, I have been crying and praying since three days ago when Hope P. told me about the quote, and all this time I had thought SG had said it. I am "poured out". And, to answer your question, "Yes."
Dee
Memphis
If you have additional questions for IDC, please send them to their email address. I hear they are catching up on their emails.
(offline)
Bepatient,
We don't need that petition anyway.
Dee
bepatient,
The contents of your petition must not be defamatory, libelous, or slanderous."
Were they?
oc,
I would say so.
defamatory means "injurious to reputation", I think that would qualify.
so it can be true, but still be injurious to the reputation. It does not follow that the petition is false. Am I understanding this correctly?
2006h,
Why start it then?
bepatient,
Because not everybody thinks the same way.
To answer the question the wording of the petition was not defamatory, libelous, or slanderous.
The exact wording;
"Postpone Ordination of David Coombs until concerns are addressed.
David Coombs purchased alcohol at Nick and Jim’s Restaurant on the eve of Thanksgiving 4 months ago, less than 1 mile from Bellevue .
We believe this goes against scripture and our church beliefs.
David Coombs has been quoted in the Commercial Appeal as saying he and the church would release the information requested.
David Coombs is on tape saying to the request, NO NO NO NO which contradicts his public statement.
David Coombs is not qualified to be a pastor according to the scripture."
I am certain that a good political spin could properly twist this wording and I am more certain that there will be those here that will choose to do so.
Ezekiel,
Not to be ugly, but they must be less than serious anyway to choose the same "inner circle" men to be accountable to. Somebody asked earlier about why didn't they let Mark Sharpe and Richard Emmerson be in his accountability group? Now I would think those tires might get some traction on a slippery surface.
EZ said,
Ok, call me a newbie or whatever but what is this accountability group stuff. I have heard this several times around BBC. What is this? Why does the pastor meet with Caldwell, Miller and others to "hold him accountable".
I guess it's because he can't trust himself
The purpose of the petition is to insure that the Church is well aware that it is not "congregationally approved" in this action. The petition has moved past this set back however and will continue not only on-line, but also in a written format. I have been given the assurance that on-line process will be available again shortly.
tim,
write a letter to the church then. I don't see how starting a petition on a website is even a remotely appropriate was to handle any questions you may have about his qualifications.
How is this following Matt. 18? How do you justify it scripturally?
How is seeking to restore him if you believe he has wandered from the Godly path?
apparently I am so tired I forgot to spell check that last one!
Sorry, I hope the point still comes through.
guess bepatient got impatient.
sigh,
It is hard to be so perfect in spelling all the time. I guess I was bound to fall eventually.
;)
bepatient,
I would have expected that you should be aware that Matthew 18 is in regards to a personal offense. The issue at hand is not of a personal nature but an issue of church governance and therefore to be brought before the church.
I would be more interested in knowing how it is that you can Scripturally justify ordaining a man to the ministry that is Scripturally unqualified.
bepatient,
While you are thinking on that perhaps you can explain why it is that David Coombs believes that the membership list should not be released to me as required by law, but my name and address should be released to the entire Church.
It would seem that he has positioned himself in a self conflicting situation.
as far as accountability, the idea behind it and the reason it works is that you have someone (or a few people) with whom you are 100% forthcoming about your struggles, etc.
Perhaps you are not at the point where you need a physical accountability, but I have seen it change the spiritual lives of many people by challenging them to grow and encouraging them when they are weak.
ezekiel said...
What is this? Why does the pastor meet with Caldwell, Miller and others to "hold him accountable".
Zek,
I do not know if it is true today, but I know that Steve Gaines met with some men on Thursday to pray. This is not for "accountability".
I cannot imagine that John Caldwell would be in this group. He has REFUSED (shown great pride) by not apologizing for jumping the fence in a private gated community, even though 3 other men involved did. But then again, isn't PRIDE all wrapped up in this disaster?
Ezekiel,
This "accountability" stuff is something I have heard over and over in various Christian circles. It's almost like having a babysitter although that is, I know, an over-simplified explanation. I don't know if it's part of the PL, New Age or anything else; but, no, it's not in the Bible--not that kind of "accountable" anyway.
Dee
Good night all. See you at church tomorrow.
Derrick Calcote said...
On behalf of myself and many, many members of Bellevue who did not want their personal information released to this organization, I thank Mr. Coombs and the Board of Directors for this decision.
5:55 PM, February 15, 2007
I am Derrick Calcote...no just kidding. I am not Derrick Calcote.
Aren't you the YOU TUBE DEACON?
On behalf of myself and many, many, many, many, many members and many, many former members, and many, many, many, former members who are still on the church roles of Bellevue who don't care if their personal information released to this organization.
I (and all those I represent in my own mind) think Mr. Coombs and the Board of Directors should reconsider this decision.
Speaking of Board of Directors. Derrick, is Bruce Brookes still the Chairman? It seems that no one has been able to tell me first hand if he is still Chairman. If he is not, can you tell me who the new chairman is.
By the way, with all your great efforts, I am truely sorry you were not asked to join the board.
personal offense or congregational issue, still seems like a good idea to use a plan that God came out with rather than a secular website.
If you take the description of a minister or elder and hold any man to it, he will never fulfill all of it all of the time. I am not willing to dismiss all the years that I have known him to be a man of integrity.
So, you think it would be okay for him to release my information to you regardless of my wishes, but you have a problem with your fellow church members having your address? I see it more as you being in a self conflicting situation.
I know I sound like I am getting mad, but I am tired and I am not trying to be irritating, I really just don't understand how this is an appropriate way to handle this? Honestly, please tell me. I really don't understand.
"Two are better than one, because they have a good return for their work: If one falls down, his friend can help him up…" Ecclesiastes 4:9-10
That would be a good start I think.
Most people that participate in accountability groups or partnerships spend much time in prayer making sure they have chosen the person God wants them to be with. It is not just "confiding in a friend". You make a firm commitment to confidentiality.
The goal is not to have someone that will justify things for you or tell you it is okay when it is not. The goal is to have someone who knows all that you are, strengths and weaknesses. They can support you and rebuke you kindly and guide you back to the proper path if you stray.
ez,
Key word is "accountability". Having an accountability partner or group is only as good as its members.The whole point isn't to put salve on each other's sin, but to call each other to account over it. Mutual accountability in the church is a Biblical concept. But again, everyone in the church has to take it seriously.
I am not saying it takes the place of the Word. Just like listening to a preacher shouldn't take the place of reading it for yourself.
I mean, Bible Fellowship classes are not required biblically, but that doesn't mean they can't help you grow as a Christian. Same with Bible Studies and prayer groups, etc.
It is not meant to take the place of your own relationship with God and His Word.
I know what you mean, but I think that might be a bit idealistic for most people. It is so valuable to hear how others that you trust interpret the Bible and what they get from it that you might have not noticed. Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses, and I think in this area that we can use that to our advantage.
goodnight, bepatient and ezekiel. Have a good night and a great tomorrow.
offline.
bepatient wrote:
"Perhaps this could explain the removal of the petition:
"From the 'terms of service'
"The contents of your petition must not be defamatory, libelous, or slanderous."
I don't see how that petition met any of those criteria, but applying those same guidelines can you possibly please explain to me why this one should be allowed to remain up? I'm sure you know who put that one up. (By the way, Jim Haywood didn't really sign it.)
*****URGENT..URGENT!!!****
If you go to the above petition site..DO NOT CLICK ON more from humanrights.
savesavingbellevue is NOT, NOT, NOT, NOT JIM HAYWOODS SITE..it is you-know-who's site. There has been a previous alert that by going there your computer could be infected with a trojan horse.
If anyone knows how to report this to the legal authorities, please do so. THIS IS NOT A GAME, IT IS NOT A JOKE!
THIS IS A CRIMINAL ACTIVITY AND GOVERMENTAL AUTHORITIES WILL TAKE ACTION..THEY DO BELEIVE IN UPHOLDING THE LAW!!
The genius needs to be dealt with..obviously no repentance from him.
BBC leadership..we know you have lurkers here..you need to deal with this young man. If you don't know who he is..email any of us we will tell you!!
After re-reading David Coombs' letters, one thing stood out and that is his comment (actually the comment of the attorney who wrote the letter) that "our activities" -I assume he means SavingBellevue and IDC - "have caused tension". . This speaks volumes that absolutely nothing has changed. Any discord within BBC is the fault of the people involved in questioning the leadership and the leadership has done nothing to create any tension or disharmony.
May God lead, guide and direct us.
bepatient said...
1.
personal offense or congregational issue, still seems like a good idea to use a plan that God came out with rather than a secular website.
2.
If you take the description of a minister or elder and hold any man to it, he will never fulfill all of it all of the time. I am not willing to dismiss all the years that I have known him to be a man of integrity.
3.
So, you think it would be okay for him to release my information to you regardless of my wishes, but you have a problem with your fellow church members having your address? I see it more as you being in a self conflicting situation.
Tim says...
1. If you are serious in this argument then it would stand to reason that the church should cease the use of any communication medium that was not available at the time of the Apostle Paul. Just for your information my original communication with David Coombs used that exact method it was by letter.
2. It seems that you are saying that Biblical standards cannot be met. Therefore, it is pointless to try and enforce Biblical standards within the Church. Excuse me as well but I did not realize that you were on the ordination committee. If you are not on the ordination committee, then by the same right that you have to express your opinion in an open forum those that disagree do as well.
3. Let me see if I understand this correctly or not. The church should violate the laws of the State of Tennessee to comply with your wishes. However, it is ok for them to comply with the law as long as it is someone else that is affected.
Perhaps you should expound on these statements to clear up any misconceptions that they may have created. On the other hand perhaps these statements conveyed exactly what you had intended.
The Blame Game
I read ahead in "Our Daily Bread" for Feb 21.
"Lord, help me not excuse my sin
And blame another person;
For if I don't admit my wrong,
My sin will only worsen." - Sper
Well, seeing as I am home sick today, I will take a little time to answer some things, just know I probably will not be able to respond to any replies until later. I apologize for not copying and pasting the posts I am responding to, but it is not far back and it will make my post way too long.
NBBCOF, I don't think that petition actually says anything negative about him but- personally I don't think it should be there either. I am sure if wanted or warranted it will be removed as well.
Tim,
1. I think that DC being ordained is not something the majority of the church wants to stop. I am not saying anything about what form of communication should be used- I am simply saying that you do not speak for everyone, so if you and those that are like-minded wish to voice those concerns to DC and then perhaps the ordination committee, feel free. But I just can't see how that petition seems Godly or Biblical.
2. I am sure you know that I mean that we should always strive towards the Biblical standards, but we are human and not one of us is going to uphold them all the time. We can only ask God to help us get closer and closer throughout our lives. If you were to inspect the lives of any pastor or minister you would at some point be able to see that they were not fulfilling the qualifications. But again I go back to looking at a person as a whole and not just picking and choosing moments in their lives to judge them by.
3. I still do not believe that the request was made in good faith or with a proper purpose. I said that long before DC did and I stand by it. I do not believe that the tactics that are being employed are Biblical or that they are enhancing the kingdom of God.
davids,
Romans 1: 18-22
Proverbs 13:20
"If you were to inspect the lives of any pastor or minister you would at some point be able to see that they were not fulfilling the qualifications"
Perhaps the difference is how God views that..not how we view 'being only human'. Protecting a pedophile minister is pretty serious business. Ignoring scripture is very serious busniness for a pastor/elder.
bepatient, you say THIS like we haven't already tried it 1,000 times. Ask Mark Sharpe and Richard Emmerson what happened when they tried THIS:
tim,
write a letter to the church then. I don't see how starting a petition on a website is even a remotely appropriate was to handle any questions you may have about his qualifications.
How is this following Matt. 18? How do you justify it scripturally?
How is seeking to restore him if you believe he has wandered from the Godly path?
God says nothing frivolously. When He says "not many should presume to be teachers, seeing that they are held to a higher standard", He doesn't say so lightly. He means it..it's not a suggestion. If he wasn't serious about the qualifications for leaders they wouldn't be in Scripture. Ministry is not a place for someone to grow into those qualifications, they have to exhibit them before they enter the ministry.
BePatient,
The purpose is Unity in Truth. One without the other is worthless and meaningless.
Unity cannot exist in the absence of Truth and Truth has always brought Unity to the Saints. Anyone that will not be subject to Truth can never experience true Unity. I pray that the Spirit of God will convict souls of Truth and Righteousness. Opinions are wonderful, everyone has one, but Truth is concrete, there is only One Truth and it does not change based on your or my opinions.
as far as accountability, the idea behind it and the reason it works is that you have someone (or a few people) with whom you are 100% forthcoming about your struggles, etc.
This only works if a person is 100% forthcoming. Most people aren't.
Eph 5.11
Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.
Dee,
One of the things that I think jumps out at me conerning you saying that David McKinley said that he was preaching on "Holy Ground" when at Bellevue is the fact that David KNEW and APPRECIATED his godly heritage at Bellevue.
I became a member of Bellevue when I was ten years old--that was 33 years ago. Something that I will ALWAYS appreciate about my church is the heritage of the saints who came before me and poured out their lives to do the Lord's work through the body of believers at BBC over a period of many years.
One of the gravest mistakes I think that has been made in selecting a new pastor was not choosing someone who knew and appreciated the church that Bellevue had been for many, many years. I believe someone had remarked earlier that she had been blessed by the Lord b/c of the obedience and faithfulness of the membership and the staff.
When we forget where we came from, sometimes we forget where we are supposed to be going. I remind my children many times of their godly heritage--both sets of grandparents, 3 out of 4 sets of great-grandparents--all living for the Lord, as well as ten sets of aunts and uncles who are serving Jesus. When they know, understand, and appreciate their heritage, somehow it helps put a little bit more perspective on the importance of them living godly lives as well.
I believe that we now have leaders in place from the pastor down who do not appreciate their godly heritage and therefore do not understand the responsibility that has been placed before them--the responsibility of carrying on the legacy of the believers at BBC.
I read all of the conversation of "legacy" vs. "seeker" churches and to that I say, "hurrumph!!!" If we did not have churches that had stood for truth for years, there would be no churches for us to attend! God bless the churches who have stood for truth for years and will continue to do so. God bless the churches that will not fade away from the battle of truth. God bless the Pastors who lead their churches along this path in hopes that their children's children will have Bible Believing, Christ honoring churches to worship in!
Standing
AllofGrace said: Ministry is not a place for someone to grow into those qualifications, they have to exhibit them before they enter the ministry.
The qualifications and responsibility God, through scripture, places on ministers is irrefutable. For them to be able to exhibit those qualifications, they will be prepared and called into the ministry by God. Ministry shouldn't be decided on lightly, or because it might be convenient, or because we've "finished" at our other job. It should be a calling all it's own. That is not to say one can't be called at any time in their life, only that the calling should be from God, taken seriously, and prepared for through study of the Word.
Standing: You are exactly right regarding the heritage of BBC. Change for the sake of change is wrong. As Mom4 stated yesterday, there are many churches that are more seeker friendly, or a new church can be started, but legacy churches are what they are and should be respected. Every church does not have to be the same. There is room for traditional, meat-feeding, whole-character-of-God preaching churches in our world. SG knew what kind of church BBC was; I think it was disingenuous to come in and decide to change to a "jump on a bandwagon" kind of church. I guess at this point we get back to the "what about seeker church" is scriptural?
How was church today boyz and girlz? Outline today?
Stayed up too late--Bedsprings Baptist for me. ;}
Titus 1:5 ¶ For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:6 ¶ If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. 10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake.
(From Strong’s Greek Lexicon)
Bishop-(episkopos)
-a man charged with the duty of seeing that things to be done by others are done rightly, any curator, guardian or superintendent
- the superintendent, elder, or overseer of a Christian church
Elder- (presbuteros)- among the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches) The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeably
Ordain-( kathistemi)- to set one over a thing (in charge of it)
- to appoint one to administer an office
_________________________________
(Amos's comment)
The ordination of these men was clearly into gospel ministry. They were to have the disposition and courage to deal with those who would subvert the gospel, and the knowledge of the gospel and the doctrines of the faith to teach, correct, and rebuke those who would pervert it. These men were not called simply into a 'public relations' position, but to be defenders of the faith and Christ’s church. They were there not just as her administrators, but they were there to feed and nurture Christ's sheep with the Bread of Life and keep them from being ensnared by the wiles of Satan. To summarize, 'Where men are found of integrity, courage, and unquestionable character, both public and private, and where men are found to be sound in the doctrines and faith of our Lord, these men are to be ordained'.
Lastly
1st Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men’s sins: keep thyself pure.
amos,
That's a good word.
Amos: Thank you. We've missed you.
Does anyone know why David Coombs left Anderson Tulley?
Just curious.
Standing said
God bless the churches who have stood for truth for years and will continue to do so. God bless the churches that will not fade away from the battle of truth. God bless the Pastors who lead their churches along this path in hopes that their children's children will have Bible Believing, Christ honoring churches to worship in!
Well said. Does anyone know where I might find a chuch like this in Shelby County? My visiting has been disappointing except for GBC whose current leadership is only temporary.
1 Timothy 3
Overseers and Deacons
1Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,[a] he desires a noble task. 2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.
8Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.
Ironically, we had a deacon ordination today and the pastor preached on the above in depth. If you look at verse 10 it brings up many questions about a 'deacon' much less an associate pastor. How are they 'tested'? My pastor went into depth on how we do that but it is something to consider how BBC has historically handled this.
One other thing I thought was interesting is that my church has a policy that deacons/elders/ministers MUST abstain from all alcholic beverages. This is in writing. It is more about their witness and our weaker brothers than anything than a direct Biblical prohibition. But it is a typical baptist church standard. I would check BBC guidelines if you can about this. Seeing a potential associate pastor out in public with wine bottles at his table could go against guidelines already set in place for even your deacons. Something to consider.
Chuck Colson had to learn about the alcohol issue the hard way, too. When he attended a dinner party where it was served, it was all over the press...with lots of speculations. That is why the verse says 'above reproach'.
The alcohol issue is the least one for me. I would be more concerned with his actions and behaviors over the past few months.
lindon said...
" Seeing a potential associate pastor out in public with wine bottles at his table could go against guidelines already set in place for even your deacons."
These guys don't care about established guidlines any more than they care about following Matthew 18.
In his message online today, Dr Rogers said "If you don't please God as a Christian, you are a failure in your Christian walk" and "If you don't please Jesus, what difference does it make?"
In other words, they are white washed seplechers and they don't care because they are viewing things thru man's eyes, not God's.
It is situational ethics, superficial worship - blasphemy in the eyes of God.
Sorry ... reposting for grammar ...
Lindon,
Just to correct one implication and one misstatement in your last post.
It has been stated by persons who know DC well that he does not personally drink alcohol.
Also, there was no report of wine bottles on his table at the restaurant.
I don't think you meant to mislead, but those who are new to this blog might make wrong assumptions about DC based on what you said.
Standingontheshoulders1973: Thank you, thank you, thank you for your post about Bellevue's heritage. I have lurked here from the beginning and I think that's one of the most important posts I have seen on the whole of this blog. It cuts through to the heart of why so many of us feel this unspeakable betrayal now. I'm coming to the end of my 40's, but I began attending Bellevue as a tiny child in the late '50s, and I can tell you there was never a moment walking those halls when I did not feel surrounded by the greatness of Dr. Lee's legacy. Everyone else knew it too, and it would have been unthinkable to be dismissive of Lee's body of work for the Lord in any way. Now, we have him, Dr. Pollard and Dr. Rogers as our "cloud of witnesses..." God help us if our memories turn out to be so short! Back to lurkdom now.
mjm wrote: "I don't think you meant to mislead, but those who are new to this blog might make wrong assumptions about DC based on what you said."
Here is what I wrote: Seeing a potential associate pastor out in public with wine bottles at his table could go against guidelines already set in place for even your deacons. Something to consider."
How was that misleading? Was it wine GLASSES and not Bottles? Is that the 'misleading' part?
Lindon said...
Chuck Colson had to learn about the alcohol issue the hard way, too. When he attended a dinner party where it was served, it was all over the press...with lots of speculations. That is why the verse says 'above reproach'.
Reminds me of Jesus daring to eat with sinners ...
It was A wine glass, as in one, consumed by someone else, not DC.
maybejustmaybe,
The wine bottle WAS on the table and he did PAY for the wine according to an eye witness that actually spoke to the waitress to verify.
This is fact and I for one do not beleive anyone who is ordained as a Southern Baptist Minister should be purchasing alcoholic beverage.
What will be accepted next?
"Reminds me of Jesus daring to eat with sinners ..."
I'm sorry. I did not know he was there to witness to people.
"This is fact and I for one do not beleive anyone who is ordained as a Southern Baptist Minister should be purchasing alcoholic beverage.
What will be accepted next?"
Ironically, this is one of the standards our church has that the pastor pointed out this morning...a deacon/elder/minister cannot even pay for alcohol at a dinner even if they are not drinking.
Thank you "standing" for your post...so true...and overlooked by so many. Amos...straight up!(what my son says for right on!)I don't know how those Biblical standards have been forgotten at BBC.....one of my friends that refused to even discuss anything at all about what was going on at BBC because they really wanted to be "loyal to BBC" has been troubled and processing since the report. Thursday night we talked and I was amazed by how passionately he nailed the core of the problems and the whole PW thing. After hearing a deacon officer that same day fully accept that SG made the "mistake" because he didn't have any reason to doubt PW's truthfullness that he was recovered and forgiven ...and several other statements I am still processing ....it was so encouraging for me to hear the depth of spiritual discernment and conviction from one of my "bubble" friends....no disrespect intended at all. Another thing that is so clear to me about forgetting our heritage and going along with the dummy downed culture is how wrong this is for our children. They need and want the real truth..they want and need to be passionate for the cause of Christ. Everything else is watered down.....some things should never be compromised. What is this showing the young men like my son of 20!! I emailed him some things written by JM...today he made a reference to "the warrior guy"...in a good way!!When Bro. Rodgers died,my son said and I agree, "a giant has died" . How will this affect his generation and those to follow. How can the standard of integrity and passion for the truth and courage to stand melt and fade so easily. What will our children learn from this?
gmommylv
I agree and am also concerned about our young men who are watching this unfold.
I would prefer that they be able to look up to their pastor like they once did but atleast there are some role models for them in all this. Josh Manning is such a delightful fellow and extremely smart and well grounded in his convictions. My kids think he is "way cool".
I still want a pastor they can admire. We came home after Sunday School and watched Dr.Rogers on LWF. We are blessed to be able to do that, but I long to be under a godly man in a Christ honoring church again.
/"But lets keep the main thing the main thing....Does DC meet the standard for "elder" or "pastor" set out in the WORD?"
Ez, I agree about the alcohol. My point is that most SBC churches have strict guidelines for such things. If BBC does, then DC willfully and knowingly violated them. My point is more about that than anything. It goes to character and integrity. And if it is a guideline there then there has been some lying by way of behavior.
At my former mega, (not SBC) we had to sign something if we were on staff saying we would never drink or buy alcohol in anyway shape or form mainly because of the weaker brother issue and our witness. But, I know one senior staffer who kept wine in her bedroom to drink privately and beer in the pool fridge. How do I know? I am related to her.
The point is the character and integrity of what is the standard and what is expected. What is in the heart. If one disagrees with the standard, then step down but do not ignore it or think it does not pertain to you.
Above reproach is in the scripture for a reason.
So, it is NOT about the alcohol..it is about integrity.
Real eyes
realize
real lies
ConcernedSBCer,Lily,Auntie, and BBC Sr,
Thank you for your encouragement. It is comforting to know that others have seen and felt through the years what I have. I thank God daily for how He has blessed my life and taught me through the saints at BBC!!!
May God continue to grow us in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ!
Standing
Dear Standingon,
Thank you for comments this morning regarding my post yesterday. You are so right about how we should have had someone like David McKinley who grew up in Bellevue and would appreciate its heritage.
Did you know David McKinley? I do not know him. I know that I heard him preach in the summer of 2001 at Bellevue, but I did not remember him as the visiting pastor who had made the quote I have stated on here a dozen times at least. I base my statement that HE was the one who should be pastor now solely on the fact that he was the one who had made that statement and that statement was what I would hear every time I prayed for a replacement pastor choice. Little did I realize that I had the wrong guy joined with the quote. Oh, grief!
Anyway, I wanted you to know that I appreciate how you have taken the helm today and reponded to many posts. I try to dedicate this day to the Lord and avoid getting too active on here; but I felt I needed to make an exception in your case and offer you my words of thanks and encouragement. Now, I will go back to catching up on reading this blog and trying to keep my mouth shut for at least one day. Oops...too late. Here I am. I love you.
Dee
It has been discussed on this thread how to know if someone is a Christian?
When in question, ask yourself, is there enough evidence to convict them of being a Christian?
Lindon and EZ,
My point was not to debate the alcohol issue, nor to stack the arguments for and against alcohol against others that speak to one's fitness for ordination.
I was actually making an effort to remind, as that old philosopher Custos is so fond of saying, that "Words mean things." Therefore, it follows that word pictures mean things, as well. There is a vast difference between the original story, as reported on this blog, that one individual at DC's family gathering drank one glass of wine and he paid for it when it was included on the total bill for the dinner -- versus the inaccurate word picture posted today that there were "bottles of alcohol on the table" and the insinuation that DC, himself, is a drinker.
The issue as it was reported originally on this blog by the eyewitness was different from the word picture.
Both of you, Lindon and EZ, are known to be passionate about truth and God's Word, and have welcomed being held accountable, so it surprises me that challenging the truth of a word picture would be troublesome at all.
Perhaps this is how this blog has come to get a black eye for being the place where rumors start. Integrity does count, from all of us. That's all I was saying.
Hi Dee!
Thanks for responding. I was wondering where you were today!
Yes, I know David McKinley. He is older than I am, so he was someone who I looked up to coming up through the youth group. He was a very godly young man, and it seems that he has stayed that course.
His family has served BBC for many years.
E-mail me, if you like. My e-mail address is in my profile. I was going to e-mail you, but your address wasn't available.
Have a blessed evening!
Standing
John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
2nd Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
1st John 1:5 ¶ This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 ¶ If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1st John 2:3 ¶ And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1 John 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
1st Timothy 6:6 ¶ But godliness with contentment is great gain.
7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
Standing,
I put my email back on my profile last night. I had taken it off back when Ace was emailing people on here and sending them dangerous links with viruses.
Good to hear somebody sort of knows David McKinley. Of course, the lady who first told me about the quote knew him and had submitted his name to the search committee. Others have since shared with me facts about David and his family having been "big" at BBC. You may have seen some of what they said. I keep meaning to try to look him up at his current church since somebody on here last week had verified that he was the one at (I believe) Prestonwood Baptist in Dallas. I was going to go back and try to find that post so I can make sure I am trying to find him in the right place.
Thank you for your sweet response AGAIN. You are precious.
Dee
OF PRIDE
Psalms 10:2 The wicked in his pride doth persecute the poor: let them be taken in the devices that they have imagined.
3 For the wicked boasteth of his heart’s desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth.
4 The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.
5 His ways are always grievous; thy judgments are far above out of his sight: as for all his enemies, he puffeth at them.
6 He hath said in his heart, I shall not be moved: for I shall never be in adversity.
7 His mouth is full of cursing and deceit and fraud: under his tongue is mischief and vanity.
Proverbs 11:2 ¶ When pride cometh, then cometh shame: but with the lowly is wisdom.
3 ¶ The integrity of the upright shall guide them: but the perverseness of transgressors shall destroy them.
Proverbs 13:10 ¶ Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom.
Proverbs 14:3 ¶ In the mouth of the foolish is a rod of pride: but the lips of the wise shall preserve them.
Proverbs 16:18 ¶ Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
Proverbs 18:12 ¶ Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, and before honour is humility.
Proverbs 21:24 ¶ Proud and haughty scorner is his name, who dealeth in proud wrath.
Proverbs 29:23 ¶ A man’s pride shall bring him low: but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit.
Mark 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
1st Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
1st John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
I've been trying to post for several days but have been unable to. I'm hoping this will work. I want to thank you for your ministry to so many of us that are seeking the truth. It is a wonderful thing to know we are not alone. God bless each of you.
I'm so excited! That worked. Could someone tell me what the little trash can is for?
"Both of you, Lindon and EZ, are known to be passionate about truth and God's Word, and have welcomed being held accountable, so it surprises me that challenging the truth of a word picture would be troublesome at all."
You have not read my posts closely or you would not have made this comment.
I think what we have been discussing goes to overall integrity. You don't. It is that simple.
IF, and I repeat IF, BBC has guidelines on this as most SBC's do... and Coombs bought ONE glass of wine for someone at a resturant, then he does not agree with the guidelines for deacons/ministers or thinks they do not pertain to him. The world would agree with you...One glass is no big deal. We are not the world. It is the underlying issue of the heart and of truth that is the big deal here. Of a potential minister who may think the guidelines do not apply to him.
If that does not concern you then there really isn't much more to say.
ATTENTION:
There has been a new petition created to alert Bellevue Baptist Church that the members of the Church would request that they postpone the ordination of David Coombs.
PETITION
Please take a few moments to add your signature.
If you prefer the signature can be shown on the web site as anonymous.
Rest,
The little trash can is so you can delete your post. You can even go back to your posts in the past on other threads and delete them. If you decide you said more than you meant to, you can take it off with that. You will NOT see the trash can if you are not logged on, though.
We all appreciate your kind words and hope you will enjoy being able to add your thoughts. We are blessed to have you with us.
Dee
Ezekiel,
Dr. Rogers always said that the wine that Jesus referred to was not fermented.
Your loving sister,
Dee
OF LYING AND BEARING FALSE WITNESS
Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Psalms 31:18 Let the lying lips be put to silence; which speak grievous things proudly and contemptuously against the righteous.
Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
Proverbs 10:18 He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool.
Proverbs 12:17 He that speaketh truth sheweth forth righteousness: but a false witness deceit.
Proverbs 12:19 The lip of truth shall be established for ever: but a lying tongue is but for a moment.
Proverbs 12:22 Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight.
Proverbs 13:5 A righteous man hateth lying: but a wicked man is loathsome, and cometh to shame.
Proverbs 14:5 A faithful witness will not lie: but a false witness will utter lies.
Proverbs 17:4 A wicked doer giveth heed to false lips; and a liar giveth ear to a naughty tongue.
Proverbs 17:7 Excellent speech becometh not a fool: much less do lying lips a prince.
Proverbs 19:5 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall not escape.
Proverbs 19:9 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish.
Proverbs 21:6 The getting of treasures by a lying tongue is a vanity tossed to and fro of them that seek death.
Proverbs 21:28 A false witness shall perish: but the man that heareth speaketh constantly.
Proverbs 25:18 A man that beareth false witness against his neighbour is a maul, and a sword, and a sharp arrow.
Proverbs 26:28 A lying tongue hateth those that are afflicted by it; and a flattering mouth worketh ruin.
Ephesians 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
From Easton's Revised and Strong's Lexicons
The common Hebrew word for wine is _yayin_, from a root meaning "to boil up," "to be in a ferment." Others derive it from a root meaning "to tread out," and hence the juice of the grape trodden out. The Greek word for wine is _oinos_, and the Latin _vinun_. But besides this common Hebrew word, there are several others which are thus rendered.
1. Ashishah #2Sa 6:19 1Ch 16:3 So 2:5 Ho 3:1 which, however, rather denotes a solid cake of pressed grapes, or, as in the Revised Version, a cake of raisins.
2. ‘Asis, "sweet wine," or "new wine," the product of the same year #So 8:2 Isa 49:26 Joe 1:5 3:18 Am 9:13 from a root meaning "to tread," hence juice trodden out or pressed out, thus referring to the method by which the juice is obtained. The power of intoxication is ascribed to it.
John 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine ; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine (oinos, fermented wine) until now.
(wine by definition in the scripture is 'fermented'; unfermented would be juice and would spoil)
Hey guys, if it were not real wine, He would not have discussed 'wineskins'. The best wine at the wedding would have never been noticed...because it would have been grape juice. Not to mention the verses on imbibing too much wine!
(How would one keep it from fermenting without refrigeration?)
I know where Dr. Rogers is coming from...my late, saintly mother thought the same thing. We never convinced her otherwise. It's an old Southern Baptist thing.
I am NOT against a glass of wine now and then. (Take a little wine, Timothy, for your stomach...)
What I have concerns over is not abiding by guidelines set out by the church for leaders on the subject.
If you want to buy wine for others at dinner become a Presbyterian. :o)
ezekiel,
LOL!
(amos breaks silence)
the only point I wished to make is that wine by biblical definition 'is' a fermented drink, and it was a necessity that it be to prevent spoiliage; 'new wine' was not grape juice as some pulpiteers have said; it was the wine that was produced in that season; EZ, you were right when you implied that grape juice would have been rare; in the heat at harvest time, when the grapes were pressed, the fermentation process was already beginning. Lindon, this may seem like a 'southern baptist' thing, but this revision of biblical history actually began with the 'women's temperance league' at the time of abolition. After that, all churches began using grape juice in the Lord's supper, and nearly all wine in the bible magically became grape juice.
Let's face it folks...overdoing anything will make a fool of you...not to mention making it an idol.
"Let's face it folks...overdoing anything will make a fool of you...not to mention making it an idol. "
This reminds me of a funny story about Spurgeon who loved a good cigar. I hope I get this right:
A woman in the congregation rebuked him for smoking cigars saying it was a sin. He said it was not a sin.
Well, what is a sin, then? She asked.
Spurgeon replied, smoking two at a time.
g'night guys. Grace and peace
25
haven't read it, and have grown weary of discussing the subject.
we use wine in the Lord's supper because wine doesn't contain leaven. (The fermentation process removes it, that's not a matter of history, but of chemistry) It is Jewish wine. It says on the label, unleavened wine. If you want to use grape juice, fine, that's your prerogative. I don't drink, don't want to. The Lord gave us two ordinances, baptism and the Lord's supper, so since there's only two, we want to get them right- we baptize by immersion and we use unleavened bread and unleavened wine in the Lord's supper. To those who dont, I've never made it an item of contention...dont plan to.
Matthew 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
1st Timothy 1:5 ¶ Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
2nd Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
Titus 3:9 ¶ But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
Please take a few moments to let your voice be heard.
PETITION
Also, there is a link on the petition that will allow you to e-mail it to your friends.
There is a very short time in which to gather signatures before this takes place.
testing..
testing
The discussion of labyrinths is coming up more frequently in area. I was told by somebody on this blog that Bellevue was in process of building a prayer center which would house a labyrinth. Is this still in process, completed...what? What is the present status on this? This has grown into a major concern of the church world...there are many books in our book stores on labyrinths...including, by the way, Lifeway Bookstore. I stay in a state of utter disbelief as to how Christians, or people who call themselves Christians, have come to this. Can people no longer tell light from dark? But back to my question...how does this labyrinth stand right now at Bellevue?
ATTENTION!
PLEASE MOVE UP TO THE NEW THREAD AND CONTINUE YOUR DISCUSSIONS THERE!
Thank you,
NBBCOF
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