From the new page on Bellevue's website:
"Our new Administrative Pastor’s webpage will serve to communicate progress and provide new information on church administration issues. Long term, this page will evolve into a location where church members can view policies, procedures, current financial information, and statistics about church activities and church life. In the future, we hope to incorporate a way for members to submit questions and receive answers online.
"We desire to be open and transparent in every aspect of church life. It’s our prayer that this webpage will provide a better means of communication between church administration and members."
So far the only two items on that page are letters from former corporate-world-chief-financial-officer-soon-to-be-ordained-minister David Coombs are two letters which are here and here.
Now, read the Tennessee code and letters from Bellevue members requesting information from church leadership as permitted by Tennessee code here and judge for yourself.
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Thanks for your feedback. I thought I was the only one who they blackballed. I called my suggestion for IDC subversive (your thought "shady" works) and presented it in a not-so-serious tone, as I hope most realized. My personal "subtle" point was to see what, who, and where IDC is. I thought there was a group who was prepared to bring accountability to the forefront rather than have it remain somewhere in the unseen rear. My frustration is that, to date, this may be only a secret society and my hopes for it may be only wishful thinking.
Trollcakes,
Hypocrisy is such a hurtful thought for those it describes and who are honest with themselves...for those who humor themselves it is something that describes others and evokes no personal feelings.
NBBCOF said "ypocrac"
I take it that's the phonetic spelling?
No, wish it was greek.
oc, don't feed your dog ho-ho's while he's in the corner though - chocolate is not good for dogs. Even if they are talented enough to tap dance.
OK, Cakes. It was ancient GEEK. Now ignore me and carry on. I'm going back to my corner in shame and embarrassment. Me AND my dog. :)
oc: Don't you know when you are having a tough day is when you deserve dog biscuits??? Go get the pup a biscuit, get you a ho ho and everything will be all right! :)
Jesus loves you and so do I!
socwork, why do you think he was tap dancing, any way?
concerned,
You got a great heart. I thank you and my dog thanks you!
PW PW PW PW
SG SG SG SG
Now that I have your attention lookey here:
aslansown said...
Here is some other news. It appears that Brian Miller (new chiarman of the Deacons) is largly unaware that there are many people in the Bellevue fellowship with deep concerns. He has not directly heard from more than a handful of people.I bet his number is easily found and we all certainly know his face. He needs to hear from US, both blogger and lurker alike, face-to-face.
2:18 PM, February 16, 2007
I have it on good authority that this process will help the process along.
br,
Thanks for the insight...3rdside holding onto breeches...
:)
3rdside, I understand your point was in a not so serious tone, but you never know who is out there and thinking, "Hey, that's a pretty good idea!"
BR: No one is in a wad, although I can honestly say I thought they were not answering my emails becasue I signed them as Memphis. I hope that whatever the "family emergency" was, that everything is ok and that it was nothing too serious.
Ah, let he without sin, cast the first stone, eh. Yes, I am a hypocrite, as touches everyone, yet we are talking about a corporate hypocracy--pernicious, ingrained, premeditated.
How else would you describe the "no stone unturned" veracity of the personel commitee's investigation?
There's way too many equivalences assigned between the speech on a free blog--a forum stemming from the lack of its provision at BBC--and the specter of an incompetent leadship hurriedly moving the chess pieces around with all its resourses, consultants and lawyers.
Here's a more apt equivalence: What do you think would happen if one Sunday two truth seekers, on the second row, yammered boorish nonsense throughout Padre's message? Do you think BBC would assert comment moderation? How about no Q & A after the presentation of the PC report--might that be considered comment moderation, especially in light of what probing questions would have revealed?
That's Dr. Padre to you trollcakes.
Good question though... sounds like BBC has been enabling comment moderation for some months now, thus the birth of the blog.
If thiswon't bring people to their knees, nothing will. This is a sermon by Paul Washer to a youth conference in 2002 in Montgomery, Alabama. Though the conference was geared toward the youth, there is no adult anywhere who won't benefit from this as well. Bro. Paul was a missionary in Peru for ten years, and is not affiliated with Heart Cry Missions out of Muscle Shoals, Alabama. He is a member and affiliate of Pastor Jeff Noblitt of First Baptist Church of Muscle Shoals, Alabama. There is to be a True Church Conference held at this church in May. Ingrid Scheulter had Pastor Jeff on her program today. Anyone who would be interested in attending this conference call 1-800-565-7729 or gohere. Please understand I am not a member of this church nor do I have any vested interest other than I hunger for the Truth. Like one lady told me, this is like manna from God. It runs from May 3-6, 2007. I plan to attend. Maybe some of you will too.
I said, "Bro. Paul was a missionary in Peru for ten years, and is not affiliated with Heart Cry Missions out of Muscle Shoals, Alabama."
I stand corrected. I meant to say that Bro. Paul IS affiliated with Heart Cry Missions out of Muscle Shoals, Alabama. Sorry about that.
"This still seems to be tied in to "numbers and noses" as a way to determine right or wrong, success or failure. And it would be wrong. The only true measurement would be scripture. How can Christians be missing this "piece of the puzzle?"
'Christians' don't miss that piece of the puzzle. The true church is unified in the truth of scripture and struggling to grow in Holiness and Walk in the Light. The true church does not take scriptural commands and precepts lightly at all.
But, why trust scripture when you see so much success in churches employing GCM. Go to any GCM pastors conference and the first question participants ask each other is: "What choo runnin Sundays"? (That is what the question sounds like asked real fast)
The question should be: Are the people growing in Holiness? Being sanctified?
linden, I agree with you 100%. This is not meant to be an inflammatory statement, but it seems as if you might be saying that Christians would not be able to overlook scripture. My question all along has been how is the Holy Spirit not hammering on these folks?
"ypocrac"
No tongues on the blog without an interpreter. :o)
Cakes wrote: "How would you like to discover that the Pastor is your bosses golf buddy at the country club? "
Cakes, you have no idea how prophetic those words are. Don't think for one moment, folks, that being the pastor of a mega in town does not carry lots of weight in the business community. Including with the millionaires club of elders. One word to someone here and there about you and your career could be doomed. Trust me, I have witnessed this first hand many times in my own city. I have seen innocent people seeking truth have their businesses ruined and their repuatations tarnished with one hint of poison from the the 'men of God' running mega's. That is all it takes. The world measures success differently than true believers do.
You would all do well to stay anonymous. We have already seen how they operate. Would you trust any one of them with your future? And yes, He is a big God who can protect you but one should never throw their pearls before swine who will trample it underfoot.
And yes, that is loving truth that will sound 'mean' to some.
Lindon,
I can interpret that. It means my dog had to go outside,bad. :o
"but it seems as if you might be saying that Christians would not be able to overlook scripture. My question all along has been how is the Holy Spirit not hammering on these folks?"
Why do we assume those that say they are Christians but do not walk as Christians at least 90% of the time are really Christians? You can be a pastor and not really be saved. You can work on the mission field for 40 years and not be saved. Most people today do not know what being saved really means. I heard John McArthur say the other day that we are on our 3rd generation of pastors who have been taught a continually watered down gospel and are teaching it to us.
Here is an example of what I mean: If you followed me around with a camera, you would find some shots of me not behaving as a 'Christian'. But, if you followed me around with a video camera, hopefully, you would see that overall my actions, behavior and words show that I am struggling to walk in the Light, continually convicted and repenting of my sins and am growing in Holiness.
There are a large and growing number of 'snapshots' of behavior and actions of SG and DC that point to not walking the talk.
Aslansown
Reposting for you .. I did see this:
aslansown said...
Here is some other news. It appears that Brian Miller (new chiarman of the Deacons) is largly unaware that there are many people in the Bellevue fellowship with deep concerns. He has not directly heard from more than a handful of people.I bet his number is easily found and we all certainly know his face. He needs to hear from US, both blogger and lurker alike, face-to-face.
2:18 PM, February 16, 2007
I have it on good authority that this process will help the process along.
FOLKS! SOMEBODY TO CONTACT WHO MIGHT LISTEN!
lindon said,
Why do we assume those that say they are Christians but do not walk as Christians at least 90% of the time are really Christians? You can be a pastor and not really be saved. You can work on the mission field for 40 years and not be saved. Most people today do not know what being saved really means.
YES YES YES! Thank you for saying this out loud (or in print). I think it frequently, but I hesitate to say it b/c I know how certain visitors will jump all over it.
This is so true though... why do we assume? Just because they say so? Just because they work for a church? Just because they're a deacon? We assume waaaaaay to much.
It's like me saying I'm Oprah Winfrey. I might truly believe that I'm Oprah Winfrey, but that does not make me Oprah Winfrey. I may spend my life doing the things that Oprah does, and dressing like Oprah, and trying to convince you that I'm Oprah, but I'm not. (Just to quell any rumors I might have inadvertantly started earlier today).
I'm not kidding folks. Minds are opening. Let's help them let in more light.
SOCWORK:
You mean your not going to be handing out cars?
"YES YES YES! Thank you for saying this out loud (or in print). I think it frequently, but I hesitate to say it b/c I know how certain visitors will jump all over it."
If you go back and real old dead guys enough you will see that it used to be said all the time. Now, we have been taught we are not to inspect fruit anymore. No one knows who is elect in the end. However, until then we should inspect fruit...especially mine if you love me as a fellow believer.
Trust me, I am awaiting the tar and feathers.
Oh goody!!! Socwork is handing out cars!
I have been listening to you guys and wondering where you have been.....I have had these thoughts and kept putting them aside because, you know...we aren't supposed to judge...who am I to look at specks in other eyes when I have a plank in my own...yada, yada, yada. I know people that are so completely able to "compartmentalize" their life I can't help but wonder how they rationalize their day to day life. The Holy Spirit continually informs me of my wrongdoings and won't let me rest until I repent. That should be happening to all, I believe. It sure happens on this blog to many of us.
Everybody chant... Socwork Winfrey! Socwork Winfrey! Socwork Winfey!
I mean...where have you been in my life...I thought I must be off base....
socwork, oc has had a tough day...give him a car....
concerned,
You are toooo good! Ha!
Well, maybe matchbox cars, if you're lucky.
aaaaaaaaah!
"I mean...where have you been in my life...I thought I must be off base.... "
It's not taught anymore. If we are not convicted daily of our sin by the Holy Spirit, then we should get on our knees.
I heard something else the other day that really made me start thinking. If you notice in scripture it says that God hated Esau. Yet, God blessed Esau. However, if you look at the difference between Jacob and Esau, you will see that God disciplined Jacob. He never disciplined Esau. Hmmmmm.
Mull that one around with me for a while.....:o)
good thought, lindon. God blesses all, even those who do not love Him. But He disciplines those that belong to Him.
Alrighty then, guess I'll get me some more tater chips and ho ho's. Talk to ya later!
A online petition has been created to encourage the church to postpone the ordination of David Coombs until some issues have been resolved.
Postpone Coombs Ordination
Please stop by and add your signature.
lindon:
Why do we assume those that say they are Christians but do not walk as Christians at least 90% of the time are really Christians? You can be a pastor and not really be saved. You can work on the mission field for 40 years and not be saved. Most people today do not know what being saved really means.
socwork:
This is so true though... why do we assume? Just because they say so? Just because they work for a church? Just because they're a deacon? We assume waaaaaay to much.
lindon:
Trust me, I am awaiting the tar and feathers.
Well, I might as well go for it. It's going to be so hard to keep the tar warm all the way to lindon's house tonight, too...
Statements like this really disturb me. Salvation by grace through faith is an act of God. It's not our place to judge whether or not someone is saved.
Now, let's talk about judging for a second. Brother Tim brought up some good points about whether or not it's right for Christians to judge, but he neglected the diverse meanings of the word in the original language. There are VERY different ways to use the Greek words 'krino' and 'krisis' (Strong's concordance #2919 and #2920).
Jesus told his disciples not to judge (Matt. 7:1), but he also told them to judge (Luke 12:57). In English, that's a contradiction. In Greek, it's not. The word can mean to select, to think, to assess, to seek justice, to rule, to condemn, and many other things depending upon the context.
One kind of judging is wrong for us because it carries the notion of condemnation. That's not our place. We are to discern, to decide, even to punish, but never to condemn. If I were to say my brother is not saved, what am I doing but pronouncing condemnation on him? Somewhat brash of me, isn't it?
It's been my experience that whenever someone hints that someone is not saved they mean it as a putdown, as if their own salvation wasn't a free gift from God. To those people, I have to say to not think too highly of yourself. We can't really boast about something that was given to us, can we? I enjoy feeling superior to others as much as anyone, but I've found that when I'm looking down I have a lot of trouble looking up.
I'll always remember what Dr. Rogers said he told a preacher who asked him if he thought one of his members was saved. His response was "I don't know whether or not YOU'RE saved!"
I'll go ahead and give my answer to the question 'How can someone who's saved still sin?' I don't know, but I know that John said we will, although we're not to continue in sin. I know that Peter had to be publicly rebuked by Paul (the chiefest among sinners) because of his sin. I also know that there is a 'greatest' and a 'least' in the kingdom of heaven.
Yes, there are also unsaved people in the church. Anyone who denies this is sitting in judgement of the Bible. Again, it's not our place to decide who they are. When Satan sowed the tares in the wheat field, the damage was done. Only at the end of the age will the angels separate the good from the bad. The angels, not us.
The question is not whether or not someone is saved, the question is whether or not they are bringing shame onto our savior. Unsaved people can't. Christians can.
Let's all mull THAT one over for a while...
It's been my experience that whenever someone hints that someone is not saved they mean it as a putdown, as if their own salvation wasn't a free gift from God.
One thought... I don't see this as a putdown at all. Let's assume for a second that our friend Gertrude (this person does not exist) thinks she is A-OK with God. However, she does not seem to show evidence that she has been saved. For us to ask her questions about her salvation is not a putdown, it's an exhortation to "make her calling and election sure!" (2 Pet 1.10)
What if no one ever said anything to her?
Matthew 7
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
Jesus is not describing what we think of as the "worldly" here - these are clearly religious people doing religious things. Even calling him "Lord, Lord."
There's a difference in pronouncing some kind of final jugdment/condemnation on someone ("Gertrude, I don't think you're saved; you're going to hell,) and encouraging someone to be sure they are saved.
eegilHope Patterson said...
I'll always remember what Dr. Rogers said he told a preacher who asked him if he thought one of his members was saved. His response was "I don't know whether or not YOU'RE saved!"
Hope, you put the emphasis on the exact place Dr. Rogers put it (YOU'RE) I can just hear his voice in my mind. And I'm sure you remember him saying regarding knowing you're saved, "You'll know, that you know". There are only 2 people that know if your're saved, that is, you and GOD.
Thank you for that Blessing tonite, I needed that.
With every passing day I realize how very fortunate I was to have him as my pastor from the very day he & Joyce came to Bellevue. God did mighty things with Adrian & Joyce Rogers, thank you Lord.
It is time that the men and women of Bellevue came out of the shadows and took a stand. This is your opportunity to make a let your voice be heard.
Postpone the Ordination
Can this be ignored if there are hundreds or thousands of signatures?
David Coombs,
I ask that you volunteer to postpone your ordination until the church is ready and you are ready. To do so before that time is dangerous to you and your family because you are not ready for a position of authority. It appears you were hired to do some church cleaning and to intimidate membership. A real pastor’s heart is much different that what we have seen in your short time as Executive Pastor. A real pastor has a love for the sheep the shows in words and actions.
To ordain you at this time will put Bellevue in further danger. You have already shown the danger here as you have purposefully misled the church and publicly laughed in the face of one of God’s own here at Bellevue. A pastor must be truthful at all times.
To ordain you at this time is to harm the Gospel, by boldly taking a chance that you will not do something else to bring shame on Bellevue in the eyes of the community as you have done already in your Commercial Appeal interview, TV interview, and your Josh Manning taping. I for one believe the taping shows the real David Coombs. What a man does when nobody sees him or it isn’t being taped shows the real David Coombs. You yourself have already mentioned it’s not fair to be taped without knowing ahead of time. Remember that God records it all. To say you are not interested in what the Tennessee law says, is not something I want an ordained Southern Baptist Minister saying.
Recently, you were seen and confirmed purchasing alcohol at Nick and Jim’s on Germantown Parkway less than one mile from the church. This was on Wednesday night before Thanksgiving. As a church, we need answers to whether you are for or against alcoholic drink. Do you have alcohol in your home? If you are against alcoholic drink, why were you seen purchasing it? If we compromise on this issue, what’s next? We need your public response to this question before any consideration of ordination is done.
The dumbing down of Christian activity has got to stop. Bellevue Baptist Church has always preached against drinking. Steve Gaines is on record as being against drinking. If we don’t stop and clear this matter up, we do not need to ordain you.
SOCWORK...
socwork said,
"YES YES YES! Thank you for saying this out loud (or in print). I think it frequently, but..." In reference to Lindon...
Socwork...Please, please go back to my post this afternoon of
3:50 PM, February 16, 2007, and listen to my "this" by Paul Washer. It is almost an hour long, but it may well be one of the best hours you have ever spent. I know that Lindon will agree with me. Read my post again if you like, but please do listen to this sermon by Paul Washer.
Ima
I'm flattered; seems Intrepid Reportager Bratton has posted on his blog one of those sloppy cut and pastes...er, point by points in response to my queries here.
Still all bark, bark and swagger, but he's so sweet to do a profile on little ole moi.
He can think of no one who has suffered any negative consequences by dissenting with the leadership, and he would be most honored to have the Pastor and his posse jump his fence and show up on his stoop.
What dillusion.
sheepless,
I do remember Dr. Rogers saying that, and so much more. I remember his simple but thorough explanation of how salvation is past, present and future tense: we were saved from the penalty of sin, we are being saved from the pollution of sin, and we will be saved from the presence of sin. None of my seminary professors could ever explain soteriology better than he did with that one simple statement.
I also remember he said that God deals with Christians on a cash basis, but non-Christians on a credit basis. They store up the penalty for their wrongdoing, but we are dealt with daily for our sin.
I wonder how many people on earth have ever been given such a tremendous blessing as sitting under that man's preaching?
David Coombs,
As a pastor or a lay leader which you now are both, you should be known for your honesty. I caution you going forward to be careful as you have been thrust into this leadership role. As a church body, we are not sure why Steve Gaines has asked you to take this role over Mark Dougharty, but given your role, you have been caught several times in the last couple of weeks not being honest.
Dishonesty in leadership leads to cynicism amongst the membership. I'm afraid that's where the masses are headed as you and the rest of the leadership team try and treat truth lightly.
When we see the leadership trying to coverup or hide problems, we tend to lose confidence in the church leadership. This has happened as a result of not dealing with the facts head on.
Members of Bellevue Baptist dont' expect our leaders to be perfect, but we do expect you to be honest.
Two questions for you Mr. Coombs,
Question 1: Would you as Executive Pastor be willing to get to the truth on the "Dream" issue from the early days of Steve Gaines arriving? This issue has torn the deacon body, staff, and membership apart as much as any issue thus far. To this date, Steve Gaines and Mark Dougharty have refused to get the parties involved into the same room and find out who's not telling the truth. We have sin in the camp and it's either Steve Gaines, Mark Dougharty, or two other staff members who were hired to do the "dirty work" of getting rid of a Godly saint of Bellevue who just happend to "be in the wrong dream at the wrong time."
Question 2: Would you Mr. Coombs, be willing to allow an open discussion of the issues that are ripping Bellevue apart while the leadership sits by as if nothing is wrong? Until the issues are allowed to be discussed and answers given, there will never be resolution.
Hope, Did you miss this statement of mine:
"If you go back and real old dead guys enough you will see that it used to be said all the time. Now, we have been taught we are not to inspect fruit anymore. No one knows who is elect in the end. However, until then we should inspect fruit...especially mine if you love me as a fellow believer."
No one knows who is elect in the end. I will repeat that.
Hope: "Statements like this really disturb me. Salvation by grace through faith is an act of God. It's not our place to judge whether or not someone is saved."
How do you know who to witness to? And since church is the biggest mission field in North America, what do you do? Do you not inspect fruit? Is inspecting fruit the same as judging?
Hope: "If I were to say my brother is not saved, what am I doing but pronouncing condemnation on him? Somewhat brash of me, isn't it?"
If your professing 'brother' does not show any fruit of being Born Again, you are not loving him if you do not inquire. Do you not care about his eternal life? It is more condemning to not inquire?
His eternal life depends on it. You
aren't by any chance an antinomian are you?
Hope: "It's been my experience that whenever someone hints that someone is not saved they mean it as a putdown, as if their own salvation wasn't a free gift from God."
How is that saying it is not a free Gift of God? I do not follow your logic here.
The bigger problem we have in this post modern day is that we do not think that Christians have to be different than the world.
Hope: "To those people, I have to say to not think too highly of yourself. We can't really boast about something that was given to us, can we? I enjoy feeling superior to others as much as anyone, but I've found that when I'm looking down I have a lot of trouble looking up."
Hope, you are doing what you have accused me of doing here. That's ok, that is where saying one should never judge becomes very tricky! :o)
Here is a reality check: If we are saved, we could NEVER think too highly of ourselves. The problem today is that if we present Biblical truths we are accused of being "self righteous". People really do hate God. They hate His Word and this is how it is usually played out by those who are offended by the Word: They think too highly of themselves.
"I'll always remember what Dr. Rogers said he told a preacher who asked him if he thought one of his members was saved. His response was "I don't know whether or not YOU'RE saved!"
That is a bit sad because that pastors life should be a testimony to how much he loves Christ. But who knows if he is elect in the end? But for now: By their fruit, you will know them.
What does being totally sold out to Jesus really look like in a person. How many people have we met in our daily lives that we could look at and say, That person is fruitful. I am not so sure many of us would know what to look for. Some would say it is because that person is nice and loving all the time. But that would rule out people like Jonathan Edwards and Spurgeon because they were hated by so many who professed Christ, too! Yet, their fruitfulness was there. Were they elect? I don't know.
All we have to go on is scripture. And if we do not follow that as believers... then what? Can we call oursleves Christians and continually ignore scriptural precepts and commands? Can we?
When ministers' ignore scripture, it is pretty serious and demands some fruit inspection. IF you love them. If you love Christ Who is not only God in the flesh but also the Word.
"I'll go ahead and give my answer to the question 'How can someone who's saved still sin?' I don't know, but I know that John said we will, although we're not to continue in sin. I know that Peter had to be publicly rebuked by Paul (the chiefest among sinners) because of his sin. I also know that there is a 'greatest' and a 'least' in the kingdom of heaven."
?? I am not sure where you are going with this but See Hebrews 10:26-31...for starters. 1 John 3 is also a good test.
The problem is our walk and our ATTITUDE toward sin. Of course we sin but it should break us, we should abhor it in ourselves. One lie and we should be in total agony on our knees for the Holy Spirit to change us. This is hard and I work through it daily. Who ever said being a Christian was easy! As a matter of fact, Jesus raised the standard from the Law...not lowered it.
Hope: Yes, there are also unsaved people in the church. Anyone who denies this is sitting in judgement of the Bible. Again, it's not our place to decide who they are."
Hope! Are you going to sit next to someone in SS that has no fruit and never love them enough to say something that may save them from Wrath? All because you think that would be judging?
"When Satan sowed the tares in the wheat field, the damage was done. Only at the end of the age will the angels separate the good from the bad. The angels, not us."
Some tares may become wheat if we do what we are commanded which is to contend for the Faith.
I do not know how that works...we are commanded and the Holy Spirit does the work. It is the great mystery.
Someone followed scripture and did it for me. Praise God!
Hope: The question is not whether or not someone is saved, the question is whether or not they are bringing shame onto our savior. Unsaved people can't. Christians can."
I disagree. No one can bring shame onto our Savior. No one has that power. Hope, God does NOT need us. We need Him.
Remember, Christ is God in the Flesh...no one can bring shame on Him..He is Lord no matter what anyone says about Him...
they can only bring condemnation on themselves.
Remember, there is no such thing as a carnal Christian. People misquote that Pauline verse all the time. There are only the saved and lost. Sheep and goats. The gate is narrow.
I will quote a pastor that I love on this one. Suppose you walked into a room late, looking very well groomed, to a meeting and said,’ sorry I am late but I was changing a tire on the way and got hit by a ten ton truck head on’.
Everyone would say you are a liar because you don't look like someone who got hit by a ten ton truck. If it were true, you would bear the marks of that.
If someone says they are a Christian, they should be so transformed (Born Again...new nature...new self) like being hit by a ten ton truck. Be so totally changed from what the world looks like that everyone could tell. We just are not taught that anymore.
I urge you to read some old stuff like Foxes Book of Martyrs. Boy, you could tell who the Christians were. They would rather burn at the stake than do ANYTHING contrary to scripture. Even something some would think
small like having their babies sprinkled by the Church. They burned at the stake for refusing!
I can only pray that I will be able to do the same if need be.
Hope, what are we saved FROM by His taking on the Wrath of God on that cross? If we really understand the answer to that question, we will contend for the Faith.
Hope: Let's all mull THAT one over for a while...
Yes, let's. Because it is that serious.
May the Name above all Names be magnified!
Piglet said...
It is time that the men and women of Bellevue came out of the shadows and took a stand. This is your opportunity to make a let your voice be heard.
Postpone the Ordination
Can this be ignored if there are hundreds or thousands of signatures?
8:00 PM, February 16, 2007
***GO BACK TO PIGLETS POST OF 8PM CLICK & TAKE A STAND FOR WHAT YOU BELIEVE IN.**
I know no one gives a...darn what I think about your church or Christian walk, but whatever you think of me, I hope you know I am your friend and only want what will lead to your healing and reconciliation.
I know that you may grind this circumstance into a pit of dissension--it will just get uglier and uglier--or you may make a break, as Ed Thompson inferred, shake the dust off your sandals and move on.
If that metaphor is scriptural (and I don't know), that is a very deliberate and public affirmation of an unresolvable cul de sac. I would hope that you may find some benefit in forming a new body amongst yourselves, so that you may minister to one another--haven't you already established some beginning for articles of faith and sound church government?
If you make the break, document it publicly and explicitly, then you walk away with your consience clear, knowing you did right by the God in your heart and to those just wanting to move on--even if is at the price of those very values upon which they always harp--while putting an end to the squabbling.
It's easy in emotional jousts, to villify, poison the discourse with dismissive quips about someone personally, and I see this increasing (I am the watcher after all; that, and a fly swatter). When I go to Bratton's site, it is obvious he is not as one-dimensional as he appears here.
Those that have decided to villify you do so because they are hurting and confused too, trying to digest a trauma to the church that will always loom over her like those crosses off the freeway, no matter what happens next. They too are deserving of compassion and their well-being must be guarded. (That still won't prohibit me from telling them to curb their dogma.)
Fighting begats more fighting. Stop letting them bait you with minutia; and begin taking care of your business, mostly by looking out for one another.
All my love and (boo-dist) prayers,
David
Ima,
I have listened to that sermon by Paul Washer before. Love it!! In fact, I had just listened to soundbites, until a week or so ago when I watched the whole thing. Wow!
Trollcakes said...
I know no one gives a...darn what I think about your church or Christian walk, but whatever you think of me, I hope you know I am your friend and only want what will lead to your healing and reconciliation.
CAKES...WE LOVE YOU!!!! Thanks for caring.
Do you want a to be ordained by the church that has;
1) Intentionally given false information to David Brown from SNAP.
2) Considered the VICTIMS testimony to be inconsequential in an investigation concerning abuse.
3) Cruelly treated a dear lady who told him that, "Pedophilia thrives in secrecy."
4) Presented a report to the congregation that was intentionally misleading.
5) Arrogantly and rudely treated Josh Manning when documents were requested from the church.
6) Does not care what the laws of the State of Tennessee say.
7) Has held a church staff postion for just over 2 months.
8) Has exhibited purely political motivation in his actions toward members of the church.
9) Has purchased alcholic beverages within the past several months less than a mile from the church.
10) Has refused to allow members of the church to review financial records to which they are legally entitled.
Deuteronomy 31:6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.
Stand up Men & Women of Bellevue!
Petition to Postpone Coombs Ordination
Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light.
2 Chronicles 32:7 Be strong and courageous, be not afraid nor dismayed for the king of Assyria, nor for all the multitude that is with him: for there be more with us than with him.
Sheepless@BBC--and I love you.
YOUR ATTENTION, PLEASE!
BIG OL' OFFICIAL SHEEP ANNOUNCEMENT HERE, SO READ UP!
I'd just like to ask everyone's indulgence in keeping Mrs. Rogers' name out of your comments (unless of course, it's to express your love and appreciation to this fine lady). Mrs. Rogers is not the one whose feet we're trying to hold to the fire, and in the end does it really matter what she thinks or does? I don't mean that we shouldn't respect her opinions or that her opinions aren't important, just that we shouldn't depend on her or anyone else to shape our opinions. Sure, I know we'd all like to know where she stands because that's just human nature, but we need to respect her privacy and not try to second guess her. I've no doubt she's doing (or not doing) just what the Lord is leading her to do (or not do).
In the end we all need to make up our minds about things based solely upon whether or not something is right or wrong, not if Mrs. Rogers or Dr. Rogers is or might have been for or against it. We've been given a great guide for that in the form of God's Word.
I trust you will honor this request and compose your comments accordingly.
Thank you,
NBBCOF
One of my favorite (not sure if that's the right word) parts of that sermon is when everyone gives Paul a (seated) ovation, and he says this: "I don't know what you're clapping for. I'm talking about you."
Think you'll ever hear that one at BBC?
(Note: if you haven't heard/watched the sermon, that will probably make no sense. So watch it!)
ezekiel said...
"Ima, The video you referenced represents the WORD as I read it."
It represents the WORD as I see it too Ezekiel. In fact, I am of the opinion it represents the WORD as most who post here. That is why I posted it here. And in the hopes of course, some might find help within this man's words.
This conference I make mention of in my post will be a wonderful True Church conference. I will try to remember to post an interview here tomorrow about this conference. Some of the readers here might want to attend this conference. I plan to. Paul Washer will be there too. I am excited that such a man of God will be there as well as Jeff Noblit.
I am so pleased you took the time to listen to this Ezekiel.
lindon,
Thanks for your response. I've always enjoyed your posts, both here and on aog's blog. I don't post there, because the theological differences between us would inevitably lead to arguments that would be detrimental to our witness. I do enjoy visiting, though.
You ended your post with "May the Name above all Names be magnified!" That's a fitting closure, and the desire of my heart as well.
You asked whom do I know who to witness to. The answer is everyone. Jesus told the 11 that they would be witnesses to the ends of the earth. He didn't tell them to witness, he told them they would be witnesses. A witness is what I am, and I tell everyone what I know whether they are ostensibly saved or not. (btw, I don't feel compelled to witness, but I don't think that makes me antinomian)
Jesus never told his disciples to bear fruit. He said you will bear fruit. He never said to go out and bear fruit. It's an act of God, and it's not my place to judge its presence or absence. Stephen had a short ministry. Philip had a long one. Was Stephen unsaved? I don't think so. I wish I could explain what I mean better, but that will have to do. It's false prophets who will be known by their fruit, not the real ones. (Mt. 7)
Paul said in 1 Cor 4:6-7 Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another. For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?
I don't know how long you've been Baptist, lindon, but trust me, when a Baptist says they don't think someone is saved, most times it's a putdown all the way. "I'm saved, they're not, so I'm a better person." You said very well that If we are saved, we could NEVER think too highly of ourselves. That's the very point I was trying to make. I'm sure you remember the story of the Pharisee and the tax collector in the temple. The Pharisee compared himself to other men, but the tax collector had no plea in his defense. He's the one who went home right with God.
1 John 1:8 is an eye-opening verse. I'd recommend everyone write it on the doorposts of their life: If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. We're sinners, plain and simple. We're not sinners because we sin, we sin because we're sinners. Salvation doesn't end our sinful nature, either. What happens when a Christian sins? Christ died on the cross 2000 years ago, so does that mean that our sin is free? No, that sin has to be paid for. Somehow, that sin is transferred onto Christ at Calvary. I don't think anyone can ever truly imagine the price he paid, bearing the sins of the whole world througout all of history. If you don't think we can bring shame on him, think again. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." Christ freely accepted our shame. What a savior!
You were never a tare, lindon. You might think so, but it's natural for a growing Christian to look back on their infancy with disdain. Tares are tares. Wheat is wheat. They don't change back and forth. God in his wisdom saw something of great value inside you that you didn't. That's why you're here today. he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.
I know that doesn't answer all your questions, but it's been a long day. I always enjoy thinking in depth about God's Word, and also hearing from other Christians.
God Bless,
Hope
Lindon,
Loved your post of 9:59 PM. I love your knowledge of the Word of God because I learn from it when you let it roll on out there for the whole wide world to see. Then, that gives this weblog a more perfect purpose.
TO GOD BE THE GLORY!
AMEN AND HALLELUJAH!
Dee
Does David Coombs qualify to become a pastor? David Coombs was seen buying alcohol at a local establshment. David Coombs misled the entire BBC congregation when he stated the investigation he was leading will "leave no stone unturned". In leading maybe the most important investigation in the history of Bellevue David Coombs chose not to include the most important witness, the victim. This past week David Coombs disallowed a Bellevue member of 30+ years the right to exercise his Biblical duty to carry out Mat.18 against a current staff member. I can look in the mirror and know that I am not qualified or worthy to be a pastor, I wish some of our current administration/staff/ministers could do the same.
Thoughts,
Some have stated being anonymous is for their job security. I don’t understand, some of these same people have spoke about how God is in control of their lives. Wouldn’t that mean He controls their job situation as well. The martyrs of the reformation have been spoken of by willing to die for their convictions. I do not get all the bravado talk, but yet there seems to be a lack of faith in God and a fear in man.
I don’t care if you post your names or not, it just appears some have boldness in the spiritual kingdom, but fear man. I don’t care if my boss sees my name, my job and security is not based upon the company but the Lord. God will always provide for me and my family.
Another thought about the petition. I would advise you to remove the petition ASAP, it will do more harm then help. My guess would be there might end up with a total of 50 names, compared to a church of 9,000 does not say much. Many are addicted to blogging and the internet so I know this blog will probably never go away. The Wall Street Journal ran a good article about that last Wednesday (Feb 14) front page.
DC being a business man, is used to short term battles and understands there will always be the 80/20 rule applied to whatever happens at church or in business. 80/20 means 80% agree with him, 20% disagree with him. So even if 1400 people signed the petition, it would solidify the position of the leadership of BBC.
To be totally honest with you, some have said the church is being ripped in two but I don’t see it. Someone stated they asked a deacon what he felt about the church and he said all is fine. I tend to agree with him.
This is the point where people get tired of dealing with controversy and the petition will only solidify this in their minds, only a handful of disgruntled legacy people are the ones complaining.
This blog is an indictment in itself. DC used it against you, by proving from the writers of this blog, the intended use of the church mailing list would not create unity. Furthermore, the way each and every statement from BBC is picked apart also takes away from your argument.
Also, the statements that start with “have you heard” or “I have heard” immediately posts in peoples minds here comes a statement from a busybody gossip. This is not pointed toward anyone individually I think people just immediately draw that conclusion naturally.
I think the majority is ready to put the PW horrible event and SG mistakes behind them and carry on with their lives and come to church, the services are very good unless a person is very critical of everything. Most people really enjoy SG and his preaching as well as JP music ministry.
80% of the people at BBC carry on normal lives, they don’t get too wrapped up about church. Their faith is in Christ and their relationship with Him is an everyday thing not just a church thing. How many people post on this blog, maybe 100? Is that really that large of a number? How many people are disgruntled about their church, no matter what church it is, maybe 10%?
By the way, in my opinion BBC only affects people in Memphis and has absolutely no effect anywhere else in the country. I also really feel these issues are moving beyond the disgruntled church members quickly. What I mean by that statement is BBC will continue to operate, SG is not going anywhere, DC will be ordained. I think many of you might as well start looking for a new church home as painful as that may seem. Things are not going to change to what many desire that have posted.
It appears many churches are pulling away from the SBC due to all the controversy primarily from the people who are more proud of being Baptist than humbled by being a Christian. All around the country there appears to be a massive move away from the SBC and many churches prefer to be a Bible church with a community feel.
Everybody talks about FBC JAX and BBC and FBC Dallas being flagships, I disagree. These churches are really nothing more than legacy churches, and many people feel that unless your part of the legacy they really don’t care about the past glory days. Wasn’t this typical of the past reformers some have mentioned.
The spirit of this writing is not to be argumentative or accusatory, just my personal thoughts. After all isn’t that the purpose of this blog?
noscales said...
Does David Coombs qualify to become a pastor? David Coombs was seen buying alcohol at a local establshment. David Coombs misled the entire BBC congregation when he stated the investigation he was leading will "leave no stone unturned". In leading maybe the most important investigation in the history of Bellevue David Coombs chose not to include the most important witness, the victim. This past week David Coombs disallowed a Bellevue member of 30+ years the right to exercise his Biblical duty to carry out Mat.18 against a current staff member. I can look in the mirror and know that I am not qualified or worthy to be a pastor, I wish some of our current administration/staff/ministers could do the same.
It seems that the word pastor at BBC has a special connotation. To carry out pastoral duties at this church one must posess an MBA insted of a Th. D.
Hope Patterson,
I see you have entered into the depths of the Word of God, also. You did a wonderful job, too, of explaining your understanding to Lindon (and me). You both have done an admirable job of still remaining kind and respectful of each other; therefore, I would say that you have also displayed an actual 'fear' of God that can only be had by those who LOVE Him and OBEY His commandments. I appreciate that for His sake.
I do love Him.
Dee
terry smith wrote:
"The spirit of this writing is not to be argumentative or accusatory, just my personal thoughts. After all isn't that the purpose of this blog?"
Yes, it is. I certainly don't agree with everything you wrote and even strongly disagree with some of it, but you make some valid points as well. Thank you for expressing your opinions in a calm and civil manner and not taking snippets of other people's comments and dissecting them for the sake of argument... or arguing.
Hope, Not only was I a 'tare'... I was worse...a tare who thought I was wheat! I was a goat who thought I was sheep.
There are millions out there in the pews who are the same.
You and I are talking past each other at this point. We sin every day because we are fallen man...of course we sin...but we should be broken by it not blowing it off as normal. It is OUR ATTITUDE toward sin that really matters.
Wow, the humph-harumphers are doing shifts now.
Terry Smith said...
Also, the statements that start with “have you heard” or “I have heard” immediately posts in peoples minds here comes a statement from a busybody gossip.
In the next paragraph Mr. Smith says...
I think the majority is ready to put the PW horrible event and SG mistakes behind them and carry on with their lives and come to church
I place "I think" in the same category as "have you heard" and "I have heard". Your thoughts can breed gossip just as something you hear can.
DC being a business man, is used to short term battles and understands there will always be the 80/20 rule applied to whatever happens at church or in business. 80/20 means 80% agree with him, 20% disagree with him. So even if 1400 people signed the petition, it would solidify the position of the leadership of BBC.
Which is EXACTLY why DC soes NOT belong in the ministry. A minister's motives should come from The Word, not focus groups and spreadsheets. It soesn't matter if 80% of people believe something to be true. If it is wrong, then it's wrong. A minister should stand with the Truth, not the majority.
By the way, in my opinion BBC only affects people in Memphis and has absolutely no effect anywhere else in the country.
I am sure the foreigh missions staff appreciate your support.
FOLKS, THE PETITION APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN DELETED BUT I HAVE CHECKED AND THE CREATOR OF THE PETITION DID NOT DELETE IT.
SOMETHING IS ROTTEN IN DENMARK.
MORE ON THIS LATER.
So is that the last consolation-the tyrany of the majority? Is that the yardstick of what is ethical?
I agree, this train's rolling on, but it's politics, not the divine, that's turning the spokes.
These people have never heard of anyone who has suffered negative consequences stemming from the expression of dissent to BBC leadership? Here, and I thought their were no caves in Shelby County!
terry smith
Gideon had a small army but the Lord was with him.
We are on the side of truth and righteousness. Leadership is afraid of the truth and hiding the truth.
If the documents show no wrongdoing, why would they not willingly surrender them since the LAW says they will have to anyway?
What do they not want us all to see?
piglet,
I understand your point about a small army. An opposing side would say, so did Satan, he took only 1/3 of the angels with him, the majority in heaven was right.
I think it is very decisive when myself or anyone else says to a person who claims to be a fellow christian, God is on my side and not yours. It seems to say, my sin is less than yours.
Again, nothing toward you personally, just trying to think how a person on each side of this would think.
Terry wrote: I think it is very decisive when myself or anyone else says to a person who claims to be a fellow christian, God is on my side and not yours. It seems to say, my sin is less than yours."
God is on the side of scripture.
terry smith
How can you defend this leadership? How??
They have ignored scripture, trampled our existing bylaws, and disobeyed the law.
They didn't even interview the VICTIM in the PW investigation! Was it because he refused ? NO. It was because he wanted his family and two friends present. He asked to be interviewed FIVE times. This is incredible that they would consider this a thorough report.
They are obviously hiding something or they would not be waiting for a COURT ORDER to surrender documents to their own members. And based on the fact that it might cause "disharmony"? They must know something would incriminate them.
Why force this into a court decision? The law is on OUR side. It is to protect the members from being taken advantage of by CORRUPT leaders, is it not? Hence, the law to reveal documents......
Piglet,
I am not an attorney, but I believe there would have to be a lawsuit filed against BBC to release said documents.
BBC obviously has excellent legal council which could tie that motion up for years. How many people are willing to fight this for years?
Also, how much money is the group that would bring the lawsuit willing to pony up? I feel this is a no win battle and some of the people who cant stand current leadership need to start preparing their hearts for a new church home.
The above is not a statment saying you need to leave if you disagree. It is a heart felt statement. A person can not continue on with this turmoil about a church.
Christian strife has to end, and the abundant life needs to begin.
For them to pick up the phone and have the petition cancelled smells of elder led dirty politics in high places.Just goes to show how afraid they are of the truth and us they can"t stop us, they think they can censor us but it will just backfire on you rich elders that have hijacked our church.Lets keep that petition going!Lets Roll!Do not fear man fellow bellevuers fear God he is our rock and our fortress he will topple these selfserving men hes done it before! do you think his hand is to short to do it again?
Terry Smith
AS my hero Dr. Adrian Rodgers said "Its is better to be divided by truth than united in error"....
Terry Smith said..
Christian strife has to end, and the abundant life needs to begin.
Maybe if the church would be more open and truthful, the strife would end. Many in the past that stood for truth had continual strife in their lives. doesn't sound very Purpose Driven, does it?
Being devoted to the Word of God ain't always a bed of roses.
1:05 AM, February
terry smith
We also have legal counsel.
All that is needed is a court order.
Does it not bother you that you are defending leaders who would rather "tie things up in court for years" than do the right thing? What are they hiding that they need to tie this up in court,as you say?
So the moral of the story is, whoever has the most money is right?
I see problems with your reasoning.
It also takes God completely out of the equation.
It doesn't matter how hopeless it may seem to some, but only that we are OBEDIENT and leave the results up to God Himself.
Off to bed.
FallethNtheDitch said...
AS my hero Dr. Adrian Rodgers said "Its is better to be divided by truth than united in error"....
Be careful citing such subversive statements. The Purpose Driven Warriors would not approve.
It's great to be devoted to the word of God. However, the church is nothing more than a local body of believers that like each other.
They gather to worship, learn, build each other up, and evangelize.
This whole thing is boiling down to a difference of opinion, yours and theirs. Each side believes they are right, or repented if they were wrong.
there are a ton of like minded fellowships a person can join if they cant agree with their current group.
Christ died for the church, not BBC or any other building. The church is the people.
A person tithes to the Lord not a church, however a church is the vehicle through which we drive our tithes.
If we believe we are tithing to a church, then we become emotionally attached to the buildings and our tithes turn to club dues.
The reason I mention tithes is because tithes has been mentioned numerous times on the blog.
Folks it is just a building, thats it. The people are the church, if you dont want to hang with BBC people there are numerous places to go. No one is telling you to disrupt your lifestyle and sell your house or change jobs or give up your first born child.
Look at it this way, if you died tonight, do you want your families and loved ones to remember you as a person of peace? A person who would never cause strife or cast an accusation against a fellow Christian and a person known to live a quiet life, serve others and love and worship Jesus.
Or a person who was angry with his/her church. I know the canned response is “I want to be remembered I stood for truth and for what was right.” The reality is your funeral will be in the church that irritated you and it will be your casket overshadowed by BBC and current staff. They will remember you, but they will live inside BBC.
By the way this is not the protestant reformation where indulgences are being sold.
Again, not trying to be argumentative or accusatory.
Okay, I'm not in bed yet.
This is not about differences in opinion -it is about sin, corruption, greed, deception, stealing what God's people have given to the Lord and squandering it.
We will not walk away and allow this to continue because it is UNCOMFORTABLE to stay and stand for what is right!
And one more thing -I hope my children watch us and stand for truth and righteousness after I'm gone because these days will only grow darker.
And finally, I don't care one whit about what some preacher says over my dead carcass when I'm lying in that casket because I will be looking into the face of my dear Saviour and it is Him that I aim to please.
With that, I am REALLY off to bed. :)
Piglet,
We will not walk away and allow this to continue because it is UNCOMFORTABLE to stay and stand for what is right!
Response: Piglet you are my sister in Christ and I say this out of love.
There is nothing to fight. As a congregational people majority rules. There is no need to disrupt your life any longer, let it go. The numbers for the opposition to the current leadership just arent there and because of human nature, they never will be there.
Will you allow this to be your defining moment for the rest of your life? I know you do not enjoy conflict, none of us do.
Many here feel they have been truly wronged, Jesus can certainly understand that thanks to His friend Judas.
Let it go, love Jesus, love His Word, love others.
Terry Smith said...
However, the church is nothing more than a local body of believers that like each other.
The Church is the Bride of Christ. To see you belittle it like this is disgusting.
there are a ton of like minded fellowships a person can join if they cant agree with their current group.
Rick Warren would be proud. You fit the PDM mold perfectly.
Christ died for the church
Christ died for ALL mankind, not just the Church. Sorry to burst your PD bubble.
A person tithes to the Lord not a church
Tithing is Old Testiment Law that does not apply to Christians. Jesus said that ALL that a Christian has belongs to God, since ALL that a Christian has is granted by God. Of course Mr. Warren's marketing strategy does not agree.
Folks it is just a building, thats it. The people are the church, if you dont want to hang with BBC people there are numerous places to go.
Bellevue Baptist Church, love it and conform or leave it. Would make a great bumper sticker.
Look at it this way, if you died tonight, do you want your families and loved ones to remember you as a person of peace?
I would rather them remember me as a person who stood for truth, not one that folded in the name of peace.
Or a person who was angry with his/her church.
I am angry with SIN, where ever it manifests itself. And that applies to the leadership of Bellevue Baptist Church or myself.
“I want to be remembered I stood for truth and for what was right.”
That would be good enough for me. I ain't here to win no popularity contests.
Again, not trying to be argumentative or accusatory.
As Mike Bratton would say....Really Now?
Astounded,
Christ did die for the church.
Eph 5:25 "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her"
Your not a universalist are you?
Terry Smith said...
Will you allow this to be your defining moment for the rest of your life? I know you do not enjoy conflict, none of us do.
I sure am glad that Jesus didn't take that attitude. Your PD attitude that Christians are one big happy family living in harmony is mistaken. There is no peace on this earth for Christians. And it will get worse. Just read Isaiah and Revelation. The longer you live as a Christian the more conflict you will see. Get ready for it. Offering coffee and donuts to Islamists will not curb their zeal to KILL you.
There is nothing to fight. As a congregational people majority rules.
The majority of teenagers admit to having sex. I guess I should buy my daughter a box of condoms since she should submit to the majority.
Astounded,
There is no peace on this earth for Christians.
Do you know the same savior I know?
Phil 4:7 the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
1 Peter 3:8-9 Finally, all of you be of one mind, having compassion for one another; love as brothers, be tenderhearted, be courteous; 9 not returning evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary blessing, knowing that you were called to this, that you may inherit a blessing.
(a.) For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son....
(b.) For God so loved the church that he gave his only begotten Son...
Which statement is in your Bible?
Terry Smith said...
There is no peace on this earth for Christians.
Do you know the same savior I know?
Phil 4:7 the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
1 Peter 3:8-9 Finally, all of you be of one mind, having compassion for one another; love as brothers, be tenderhearted, be courteous; 9 not returning evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary blessing, knowing that you were called to this, that you may inherit a blessing.
What does any of this have to do with my statement?
"1 Peter 3:8-9 Finally, all of you be of one mind, having compassion for one another; love as brothers, be tenderhearted, be courteous; 9 not returning evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary blessing, knowing that you were called to this, that you may inherit a blessing. "
Please understand that being of 'one mind' is about being united in the truth of the gospel. There can be no unity in Christ outside of scripture commands and precepts.
terry smith said...
Your not a universalist are you?
I assume you meant' "You're not a universalist are you?"
No, just a sinner who loves Jesus.
You're not an Arminian are you?
Terry Smith,
You have returned to the same argument, "If you don't like it leave". Perhaps you veiled your argument in the nicest way possible, but it is still there.
So it would appear that you reason that the church is ruled by majority. The majority have been either completely uninformed or misinformed by the leadership. The purpose is to get information so that they can make a decision.
Just curious to know your opinion, but if Christ is the head of the church, then Christ plus how many create a majority anyway. Be sure and rewind the tape on that one a couple of times before trying to tell folks, "If you don't like it leave".
In other news;
I have not received any response as to why the petition is no longer available. It honestly struck me as quite odd that it would be taken out in the middle of the night. That is something that is somewhat unusual for any company to do. I will find out about it tomorrow.
Cakes...Wise words. Thanks for your love and support. :)
Terry Smith said: The numbers for the opposition to the current leadership just arent there and because of human nature, they never will be there.
How could this be known since no meeting has been allowed to take place? As I recall, the last "communications" meeting had more than 300...that's significantly more than 50... You may be right, or you may be wrong, but those that have searched to see Truth completely have been called into this battle and God will not allow them to shrug their shoulders and walk away.
This is the LWF Daily Devotion for today. Sometimes it's all about timing, isn't it?
BIBLE MEDITATION:
“For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.” Romans 8:18
DEVOTIONAL THOUGHT:
God wants to build spiritual steel and rock-solid faith into you. And the way He will do this is through the fire of affliction. Why? To test you. The faith that can’t be tested, can’t be trusted. The times I have grown the most were not when everything was going fine. The times when we go through sorrow, pressure, and trouble are the growing pains of our lives with Christ. Isn’t that true? Somebody wrote these lines, “I walked a mile with pleasure, she chatted all the way. But left me none the wiser, for all she had to say. I walked a mile with sorrow and not a word said she. But oh the things I learned from her, when sorrow walked with me.”
Terry Smith is a great example of apathy in the church. His lack of concern for truth and righteousness inside the church is astounding but not surprising. Since 80% doesn't care, the rest of you 20% who do care need to go away. David Coombs will outlast you because he and the church have more money to hang on longer. This is all about who can hang on the longest now. Truth doesn't matter anymore at Bellevue if Mr. Smith is speaking for the church which I assume he is.
Apathy has destroyed many churches in the world over the ages. There are many churches that are no more because Truth became something that was accepted when convenient but rejected when reasoned. Why let Truth get in the way of inconvenience?
Since 80% of the church doesn't want to get involved, it's not worth standing for truth?
I'm beginning to realize the Truth that we have preached about over the years and studied in Sunday School really doesn't mean to the masses what we've always read, studied, and sang about in church. Does it bother you that we have a pastor and elders who are not truthful? Does it bother you we are going to ordain a man who purchased alcohol at a local restaurant three months ago? Does it bother you we have leaders who have broken the law and laugh about it? Does it bother anyone that Matthew 18 no longer applies at Bellevue?
Mr. Smith,
You mentioned that BBC only affects people in Memphis and has ABSOLUTELY no effect anywhere else in the country.
If I didn't know better, I would have thought you just fell off the cabbage truck.
People are watching all over the world which choice Bellevue makes in facing right vs. wrong.
The SBC seminaries are kept abreast of the decisions being made every day by way of SavingBellevue.com and this blog.
Missionaries all over the world are looking to see what Bellevue decides.
Today is the day of Salvation and today as is every day is the day of Truth.
If others who profess to be Believers don't stand for Truth, this is one person who will stand until the day he is knocked down until he can't stand up again.
I do believe there are more than the 50 or 100 you speak of Mr. Smith. It appears that we are missing about 3,000 on Sunday mornings vs. where we were one year ago. Many are in Bible Fellowship but refuse to attend the worship service. God Bless the number of people whose spirit is vexed as our leadership continues to go down the wrong road.
May God have mercy on us.
Truth or lie: AMEN to all!
MANY are watching.
truth or lie? wrote:
"People are watching all over the world which choice Bellevue makes in facing right vs. wrong."
Judging from the sitemeter details and the e-mails I and others receive, you are exactly right! I'm continually amazed at just how much interest there is in this story and all the different locations our readers come from. Just because the vast majority of the readers don't ever leave comments doesn't mean they're not lurking.
Speaking of seminaries...I get hits on my blog from 4 of the 6 Southern Baptist seminaries almost every day...so yea..people are watching all over the world...don't think they aren't. To think what happens at BBC has no effect on this denomination is either foolishness or ignorance. You going to tell me what happens at Saddleback or First Baptist Woodstock has no influence either?...dream on.
Terry Smith,
Numbers important? God used a few committed disciples to change the world. Once the rest of the congregation begins to smell the coffee, the numbers will change imo. That is why leadership is fighting so hard--against the law of the land even--to deny IDC the membership list.
Such leadership may high-five each other today; but when truth is at issue, it will appear to be the vanity that it is before the judgment seat of Christ.
God will champion truth. A day of vindication will come for those who are despised by the current leadership. Watch!
BTW... Bellevue has been off the front page for a few days now. But what do you think will be the result of a court order to grant the membership list? And... at Bellevue's expense now that the written request has been formally denied.
Also, the new members of the Board of Directors were added to follow the "Bylaws." Well, the bylaws call for the seven members to change yearly as "duly elected and qualified" by the congregation! Now just when were they nominated from the congregation? When were they qualified by the congregation? When were they elected by the congregation? Hmmm... Business as usual.
jmo
Oh boy... so many thoughts, will I remember them all?
First of all, I agree with those who have already said that you better believe what's going on at BBC is far reaching. I know this for a fact from personal experience. (And I've heard it discussed on national radio... come on!)
Second, I don't care if 93.75% of the members of Bellevue agree with the leadership - that does not make them right, nor does it make what the leadership are doing, ok. God is holy and will not tolerate sin, regardless of how much the "church" tolerates it.
Third, terry, your message does indeed seem to be, "if you don't like it, leave," and "can't we just forgive and move on." I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth, but since you said as much in your post, I figured it was a pretty safe paraphrase. What you view as mistakes, I have a hunch on pretty good authority that God sees from a different perspective.
Fourth, you asked how we would want to be remembered if we died. I would want to be remembered as someone who followed Jesus no matter what it cost her. You know why? He's the One I'll see on that day, and He's the One who'll be my judge. If that means I have to stick my neck out and say things that are going to make people uncomfortable, so be it. I hate conflict as much as the next person (no, probably more), but I think God takes sin very seriously, and expects me to do the same. That's not an excuse for being "divisive" - it's all the more reason to push for integrity.
More later... but Terry, thanks for being open to discussing these things. It's important.
From the statute:
"(c) If the court orders inspection and copying of the records demanded, it shall also order the corporation to pay the member's costs (including reasonable counsel fees) incurred to obtain the order unless the corporation proves that it refused inspection in good faith because it had a reasonable basis for doubt about the right of the member to inspect the records demanded."
PS: Since members of Bellevue were requesting the records out of concern for transparency and potential wrongdoing--and merely to contact other members about a meeting--there is no "reasonable basis for doubt about the right of the member." It looks like Pastor Coombs and the Board of Directors have saved these members some money. JMO
Here are a few important changes that would help restore the trust of many members during these days of crisis in leadership:
I. Pastoral Accountability to the Congregation:
1. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... and any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
2. The giving records of the membership and the ministers on staff at Bellevue should never be for pastoral review--or any other minister's, layperson's, or committee's review--in any shape, form, or fashion. That should be between God and the giver, period!
3. Due to concern for potential abuse, no church credit cards.
4. An admission that the pastor should never have suggested and/or recommended that $25k be given to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
5. A policy for open books on Holy land trips--or any other trip-- and no overcharging of members.
6. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
7. Immediate removal from office of ministers guilty of sexual immorality with immediate coordination with the appropriate authorities if any laws have been broken by a minister (no matter how long ago), including thorough investigation of the matter when the minister’s conduct may have affected other church members or their children.
8. Compliance with the laws of Tennessee—within the specified time for compliance as outlined by statute--with regard to requests from membership for information, such as: membership list, financial records, current bylaws, business meeting minutes, and finance committee meeting minutes.
9. Any Business Luncheon or Breakfast, etc. should be approached as a ministry of the church and the charge should be commensurate to the actual expense. Use of proceeds should be reviewd by the body via financial reporting to the congregation. Otherwise there could be the appearance of profit instead of ministry.
II. Congregational Church governance:
Some of the congregation has awakened to the reality that our church has a set of non-elected "lay-elders," a close knit group of men who manage to be appointed to key positions year after year. The rest of the congregation needs to be awakened.
1. Those that are part of this lay-elder "power block" need to step down from positions of influence for a long time. Bellevue needs “new blood” in these key positions.
2. There needs to be the signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services for the church. These people should not be allowed to serve on committees that review bids for their services.
3. Congregational nomination of and election of all of the Board of Directors as called for in the 1929 bylaws.
4. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. **The current bylaws mention "monthly" business meetings! When were they changed??
5. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
8. Thorough communication with the Congregation for ANY capital project well in advance of any vote. Building prayer buildings or any other type of building should be brought through proper channels to the congregation for prayerful consideration--not coerced "rubber stamping." [By the way, BBC's former leadership taught us quite a bit about prayer. As a matter of fact, I believe all of the current buildings ARE prayer buildings already. BBC's former leadership taught us quite a bit about worship also... but that's another topic].
9. Bellevue needs to reject Warrenism fully and finally.
10. Higher standards should be put in place for the hiring of "ministers." Seminary training should be considered a normal prerequisite.
11. A new policy should be drafted that would govern the formation of future pastor search committees according to traditional Baptist polity. Qualifications for service should be given (in part to avoid potential future conflicts of interest) and future committee members should be nominated and approved by the whole congregation.
III. Treatment of ministers on staff at BBC and members:
1. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members.
2. The end of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members; and the end of signing non-disclosure statements. All ministers who have been pressured or asked to sign such non-disclosure statements should be released from them in writing by BBC! Former staff should be allowed to address the congregation and/or the deacon body either in writing or in person without any fear of reprisal regarding their exit from BBC. The congregation needs to know how their leadership has treated and is treating ministers who leave the service of our Lord through BBC.
3. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.
All in my opinion as usual.
We are to be “providing things honestly in the sight of all men” (Rom. 12:17). Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."
Thank all of you for your insight. What I posted I do not claim as fact, just my opinion. I have a tendency when I write to appear to claim as fact when in reality it is just my opinion.
Let me clarify what I meant by no effect, which after reading your comments made me realize something and allows me to clarify my thinking.
Actually there are two churches. When an unbeliever becomes saved, they are a baby Christian. There needs, wants and desires are totally different than a person who has been saved for many years.
However, as the baby grows he/she soon becomes a church person, a more mature believer. The legacy churches are showing growth primarily by swapping church members. Which BBC based upon many of the comments by mature believers who have stated the mission of the church (BBC) is to build up the body of Christ with solid meat and doctrine. This is typical of a mature believer, again all this I am not presenting as fact just my opinion.
The country, in regard to my previous statement, meaning those churches who are growing by non Christians joining their ranks, it is these churches the legacy churches have no effect on. Perhaps part of the struggle comes when a legacy church tries to reach the non churched.
A non believer (seeker) church and a legacy church probably goes together like oil and water. This could shed some light on the attacks against Rick Warren. Someone posted a while back that they believe Rick Warren could be the anti-Christ, perhaps not in those exact words. But the context was with his global PEACE plan.
This not a pro warren or anti warren statement, I don’t know that much about him other than his accomplishments and many non-church people have really connected with Christ through him. That statement is just based upon I personally know about ten people, who I thought would never come to Christ, came to Christ through his PDL book.
Most legacy churches prefer the choir with the robes, verses the seeker sensitive churches seem to use the praise teams etc. I know many take debate about the term seeker, but I believe that is typical of a mature believer based upon his/her needs, wants and desires.
Remember Abraham Maslow in college with the hierarchical order of needs. I am throwing this out because I would appreciate your thoughts on this. Maslow basically stated a community comes together first by survival, then that person moves to belonging, then self esteem then self actualization.
Fewer than 10% of people ever arrive at the self actualization phase. The phase that means you have totally found your purpose in life and are helping others achieve their purpose. I think Rick Warren is one of those guys based upon his comments I have seen about his passion of just wanting to be a pastor.
Let me put this in the spiritual context. A person comes to Christ when they realize God is holy, blameless and pure and they are not. The Lord shows them, by someone preaching the gospel, Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
Once they accept Christ they are in the survival mode, just trying to figure out what Jesus expects of them after salvation. Soon they start to get a handle on the word of God and become comfortable with their new family of believers. However that new family of believers are mostly those who are in the same spot they are in, immature. They yearn for community and move into the belonging phase.
After they are in the belonging phase and are comfortable they then start to yearn for leadership and self worth which is the self esteem phase. They start to have the longing thoughts about their purpose etc. I believe this is where most mature Christians get stuck. They forgot about just the survival phase, where I think that 80% probably is. They want more and more and this is where the rub comes in. The preachers who are focusing on the survival people, they forget about the self esteem people.
These preachers have a desire for the lost people to get saved, but few have mastered combining the two camps together. I believe Dr. Rodgers was one of those men who did combine the two camps together, but that is a rarity these days. SG could very well develop into a preacher who can combine the two camps together one day. But to do that will result in many mistakes.
The result of these mistakes will markedly divide the legacy church. Those mature believers (self esteem – self actualization) who demand purity above all and he must pay for his mistakes. The survival people who say, I am glad to see he makes mistakes just like me. Over time the survival people, the ones who juggle life every day just trying to make it from one day to the next with Christ, these are the ones who don’t get too wrapped up in the daily affairs of the church. The survival people could care less what the pastors salary is, who is on which committee or the committee leaders backgrounds.
Many of these survival people will take comfort in DC because he has not been a professional paid Christian during most of his adult working life. They feel like they have a connection with him. The further divide comes when the (self-esteem) people bring out the fact he bought wine three weeks ago, who I being a (self-esteem, self-actualization Christian) and they hammer him. I think the survival Christian further identifies with him.
I know self-esteem is an icky word, I don’t like it either but it was Maslow’s term. My self-esteem is in Christ and He is everything to me. But at the same time we still have the reality of the world we live in.
I don’t know if any of this makes sense or not, I, like you, are just trying to clarify my thinking.
Again, I am not trying to be pro or against the above mentioned people, nor is it my aim to be argumentative or accusatory. Perhaps some of you can take my thoughts and clarify them further. Thanks.
Terry Smith said:
Christian strife has to end, and the abundant life needs to begin.
SOTL says;
Hate to burst your bubble Mr. Smith, BUT, as long as your current leadership is in place, with unrepentant hearts and continual, ONGOING sin, there will NEVER be abundant life at BBC. You think that WE are the problem? Look again, sir.
I wouldn't get too giddy about the court order. My guess is your slick millionaire leaders, who are acting as faux elders, have been in counsel with lawyers paid for with your past tithe dollars. They will take a few comments off this blog out of context for their reasoning as to why they cannot in 'good conscious' release the information. In the end, it all boils down to who is the Judge.
In case you all have not noticed, Judges now legislate from the bench.
And you have leaders who have proved they will use worldly methods to 'win'.
And yes, the world is watching in a sense. Every budding celebrity GCM pastor is watching to see how to operate.
What does the initials GCM mean, pardon my ignorance.
Could it be in the realm of possibilities the petition mysteriously disappearing could have been the hand of God and His displeasure with that.
terry smith said:
I think the majority is ready to put the PW horrible event and SG mistakes behind them and carry on with their lives and come to church, the services are very good unless a person is very critical of everything. Most people really enjoy SG and his preaching as well as JP music ministry.
SOTL says:
Is that why there are so many empty seats these days?
terry smith said...
"Most legacy churches prefer the choir with the robes, verses the seeker sensitive churches seem to use the praise teams etc."
Not meaning to get "off topic", but perhaps you could answer a question for me. Why do the seeker sensitive churches have to hijack a "legacy" church instead of planting their own churches as laid out in the New Testament.
I have a hard time understanding why there was a need to deconstruct our church from a loving, lively, gospel preaching, Christ honoring, missions oriented, New Testament church to a disembowled shell of commercialism and liberalistic theology run by a group of plastic men who have shoved the scriptures aside for their own personal gain.
Pray tell, why?
It's actually CGM....Church Growth Movement.
"But at the same time we still have the reality of the world we live in."
No, we don't live in the reality of the world if we are following Christ. You cannot marry worldy psychobabble with scripture and stay true to the Word. That dog won't hunt if the standard is following Christ. If the standard is church growth it will work.
As to Maslow, Jung and others who have been brought into the realm of Christianity you should know something about them: Maslov defined a hierarchy of needs in an effort to explain behavior. These are all no more than theories. There is no scientific proof. Anyone can devise a system for explaining human behavior and then interpret it in terms of his own explanation. The fact is psychology is opinion and philosophy – not scientific.
Maslows theory is blown to bits when you visit Christians in Afghanistan or India.
Carl Jung has been brought into many churches and his personality theories are based on the occult. I can promise you the Christians in Afghanistan would never understand how the difference between a 'Intuitive' or a 'Sensor' would have any affect on their being Born Again. We get a new nature and none of that matters.
There is quite a bit more I could write on this subject but your analysis is right out of secular humanism and is man centered. Milk Christians need to be around meat Christians. That is part of the plan. Do you remember that Paul admonished them for wanting their milk too long.
If you get 'self esteem' from Jesus, I have to wonder if you really know Him.
Mom4: excellent point...one I have been wondering as well.
Hm... what does abundant life really mean?
Does it mean an absence of struggle, difficulties, hardships? Tell the apostles.
Does it mean that people will like us all the time? Jesus told us a few things about that...
Luke 6.26
"Woe to you, when all people speak well of you, for so their fathers did to the false prophets."
Luke 15.18
If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.
(all of the above are rhetorical questions... no need to answer, just think about it).
Terry I don't know where you get all your ideas about the church..all these classes of believers you speak of...but none of it can be found in scripture. It sounds more like a bunch of psychology, than scripturally informed thought. A mature believer is neither "self-actualized"(psychological term), or "self-esteem"(another therapeutic term)oriented. A mature believer understands first of all that "self-actualization" is not of God...it's anti-God and friendship with the world. "Self-esteem" is an oxymoron in God's economy..."He must increase, I must decrease"..."in my flesh dwells no good thing"...go back and read Romans 7. This is what's wrong with the post-modern "church"..."Be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind." This is what is like putting oil and water together...making the church fit into the world system...it won't work..not in God's esteem. Oh it'll draw the crowds...nominal Christianity and theology-lite always have been appealing to the world. But you can't find one iota of redemption in such a message. I don't fault you for your views..I suspect your age would tell that you're among the age group who've been nursed at the breast of the easy-believe-ism, decisional gospel, and the philosophy of the church that goes with it. Experience and psycho-therapy trump sound theological teaching and understanding of the gospel and the church. As I said yesterday, welcome to the post-modern church.
socwork: where did the idea come from that our abundant life was going to happen on earth, anyway? And should we define abundant? Abundant in what way? Financially? Spiritually?
According to Websters, abundant means "present in great quantity; more than adequate"
A Christian's life is already abundant because his sins have been forgiven and he is promised to be an heir with the saints of light (Colossians 1:12- "giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints of light")But this says nothing about a large salary, powerful place in the community, etc. I believe abundance is promised in a spiritual realm.
mom4,
Why do the seeker sensitive churches have to hijack a "legacy" church instead of planting their own churches as laid out in the New Testament.
Response: That is a great question which falls back on the pastor having a clarification of his true calling in God's kingdom.
If a pastor's passion is going after the un-churched and he is clear on that, you are right.
A pastor who knows this calling, has no business leading a legacy church.
I don't know if there has ever been a successful switch from a legacy church with mature believers to a more seeker oriented approach.
Does anyone else know of one?
Ester, I think you make some great statements as a mature christian. But the baby christians dont understand a thing what you are talking about and they will write you off as being harsh, cold and legal.
Which I think helps you to define your calling to the more mature believers and not to the un churched. The mature believers understand exactly what you are talking about within the context of their own struggles.
I agree about the phsychology and everything. but some of those phsych things help a non believer or a baby believer put into context the struggles they face.
We are heavenly minded and spirit filled, but we still scrape our knees and need real band aids from time to time.
Something I noticed that may give some insight into Mr. Smith's opinion regarding BBC. He had no idea what the Church Growth Movement was, or at the least, he was so unfamiliar with it he did not recognize the similar acronym. This is very telling and is most likely the common thread in many of the Gaines & leadership supporters. If they were the least bit educated in the total world view of the CGM and PDL as well as the Global P.E.A.C.E plan, perhaps THEY would begin to compare the means and motives present in BBC today with the scriptures and come to a different conclusion. Blind trust does seem to be playing an obvious roll here.
What ever happened to what Dr Rogers always told us: "Don't believe what I say, search the scriptures and believe what the Lord says".
Mr Smith, have you searched the scriptures in relation to the situations at Bellevue or are you relying on what you are told or what you are feeling?
Terry Smith said...
"I don't know if there has ever been a successful switch from a legacy church with mature believers to a more seeker oriented approach."
I have never heard of one either. The churches are always torn apart, leaving one group or the other as the wreckage of Satan's battle with the other group being forced out of their home church.
What has happened at Bellevue is not of God. Steve Gaines should have made his intentions clear to the congregation prior to his acceptance of the call of the search committee.
This brings up another question:
What is the the purpose of the church?
Who is the church for?
Whose job is it to "go after the unchurched?" The pastor's?
Is the term "seeker church" an oxymoron at all?
As Dr. Phil says (I thought I'd stay consistent with the psychology theme here), 80% of questions are really statements in disguise.
Terry Smith said.
"If a pastor's passion is going after the un-churched and he is clear on that, you are right.
A pastor who knows this calling, has no business leading a legacy church."
Please explain to me where this pastoral calling is in Scripture. I cannot seem to find it. God's Word does not mention the "un-churched", it only mentions the "Lost" and there is a difference.
I agree that the calling of a "pastor" who seeks to destroy a legacy church should be questioned. That is no where in scripture either.
socwork: now you're getting into deep theological waters!!!
(I think I need coffee for this discussion!!)
:)
Hmmm yes, coffee sounds like an excellent idea. I may have some myself!
mom4,
You are correct, I do not have a clue what Church Growth Movement means. When I think of a church growth movement, I think about the book of Acts. That was an amazing church growth movement.
Can you help me understand what this Church Growth Movement is? Is that the same as a seeker church? Not being sarcastic I truly want to know.
The scriptures in relation to BBC: I really dont know how to answer that.
You know how when you go to a good restaurant and a few weeks or months later and someone mentions that restaurant and the impression you formed. You may not remember exactly what you ate, but you remember it was good.
As I read through the gospels and the epistles the overall impression I receive is the following:
1. Those who keep and do God's word, God will reside in them
2. Forgiveness is a high priority
3. Unity is a high priority
4. Love is a high priority
5. Religious People (judaizers) is a low priority
6. Living a life marked with peace, love and service should be our goal.
I don’t know if the above list is right or wrong, and I probably could not list out each scripture to the above. But that is the impression I have burned in my mind.
"Which I think helps you to define your calling to the more mature believers and not to the un churched. The mature believers understand exactly what you are talking about within the context of their own struggles."
Terry, keeping a bunch of seekers together feeding them milk away from mature believers is called the companionship of fools.
Terry: "I agree about the phsychology and everything. but some of those phsych things help a non believer or a baby believer put into context the struggles they face."
The only context they need is scripture. And none of what you describe is in scripture. Did you not hear what I said about believers in Afghanistan? They blow your 'theory' to bits. They long for mature believers to teach them. Why? What is the difference? The answer to that will tell you what is wrong with the American church.
Terry, if anything I have said sounds cold and harsh to a 'seeker' (which I do not agree that seekers exist because of what Paul writes in Romans) then they must hate the scriptures and that explains using all the psychology in churches to water down truth.
Psychology is inherently man centered. Scripture is God centered. They do not go together but we have for at least 3 generations been taught that they do. It is a lie from the Angel of Light.
Terry,
Before you lecture this forum further, please go back to the November archives. You have some catching up to do. See the heading:
Friday, November 24, 2006
We Are Not Alone!
socwork and mom4,
You presented some questions someone a lot smarter and knowledgable than I will have to answer.
You will find I have more questions than I have answers. This is probably the Lord working in me to keep me in His word with an attitude of just wanting to know Him. I think a by-product results also in being able to give an answer for the reason we believe.
I really do not have a clue who the modern church is for. I attend because I want to be around my brothers and sisters in Christ, worship Jesus and learn His word. I almost always learn something new each and every week and I have been saved over twenty years.
It is also a convenient place for me to tithe to the Lord and to help others in His work.
With the above being said, that is why I dont spend a lot of time worrying about the leaders short comings. We all have them, and the ones that have different short comings then myself I try not to spend too much time on.
Does anyone know who it would be that informs the deacon officers about what is going on in the church?????? I called a deacon friend that is not an officer and he didn't know. I spoke with a deacon officer Thursday and was surprised to find he had been told (as an officer) wrong information concerning responses after the report....my deacon friend that is not an officer had been told nothing.
Does anyone know who it would be that informs the deacon officers about what is going on in the church?????? I called a deacon friend that is not an officer and he didn't know. I spoke with a deacon officer Thursday and was surprised to find he had been told (as an officer) wrong information concerning responses after the report....my deacon friend that is not an officer had been told nothing.
"As I read through the gospels and the epistles the overall impression I receive is the following:
1. Those who keep and do God's word, God will reside in them
2. Forgiveness is a high priority
3. Unity is a high priority
4. Love is a high priority
5. Religious People (judaizers) is a low priority
6. Living a life marked with peace, love and service should be our goal. "
Terry, what is the first sermon Christ preached in Matthew and Mark? That is first on the list...check it out.
The other thing you may want to study in depth is what is meant by 'unity'. Unity can only be achieved by unity in scripture. Otherwise, Jesus would not have told us that he did not come to bring peace but a Sword. He told us that families will be divided over Truth. That Sword is the Sword of Truth...The Bible which He will have in His mouth when He comes back. That is how serious following the commands and precepts of scripture is for us.
That is the ONLY 'band-aid'. Guess what? All of this IS loving if it keeps one person from the Wrath that is to come.
25+,
Thanks for the reminder, my posts do appear as lectures.
I will try to keep from posting further today and I did not intend to take up this much space.
when my mind starts going, i have a hard time stopping.
Terry: many of us have done a tremendous amount of research to understand some of what has been going on in our churches. To begin, you can google "Church Growth Movement" and that will get you started. However, 25+ is right...you can learn much just by going back and catching up on threads from this blog. Many of these issues have been thoroughly discussed. Keep searching...I believe you will find the importance of looking not towards men but towards the Truth of the scriptures.
Bro. Terry,
Your last post sounded more sincere than some of the others. Many here have been told, ordered in some cases, to leave their church of a lifetime. Please understand that when you write in that vein it will strike a nerve.
jmo
Terry smith said...
Could it be in the realm of possibilities the petition mysteriously disappearing could have been the hand of God and His displeasure with that.
11:50 AM, February 17, 2007
Tim says...
I created the petition and at 11:48pm received an email from petitions.com that it was being removed. This organization has thousands of petitions listed and it should be readily apparent that it was called to their attention by someone and singled out for removal. I seriously doubt that God contacted anyone at petitions.com.
The church administration has once again exhibited poor decision-making on this particular issue. They now find themselves in a double bind unable to postpone the ordination of David Coombs and unable to continue with the ordination. If they postpone the ordination it will clearly indicate that they have been compelled by congregational disapproval to do so, if they do not postpone the ordination it will indicate that they do not care about the congregational disapproval of this action.
The administration is well aware that 3-4 people are not responsible for these actions. They are also aware that the group is larger than 50 or 100. There are currently hundreds and probably over a thousand that have determined that “congregationally approved” means just that “congregationally approved”. The numbers are growing daily because of the arrogance and indifference that is being exhibited by the church leadership.
That being said I will state once again what I had stated early on in this fiasco, that being, if I must stand alone I will do so, because it is the right thing to do.
I just got a mailing from the church that included both of DC's letters. I must say I think they may have put their feet in it per se by sending this out to the entire membership. God at work I suppose. We can't get them to give us the mailing list but God allowed them to show their true colors to the entire membership without us having to lift a finger. Praise God.
Tim: Someone other than you (the creator of it) had the power to remove the petition? I don't understand.....
Terry,
In response:
1. Those who keep and do God's word, God will reside in them. - The Holy Spirit indwells each believer from the moment of salvation and we will see Him face to face. There are times when our sin may seem to separate us from Him, but that is only the sin that is keeping us from fellowship with Him. It is our place to repent when convicted to restore fellowship. Hebrews 12 (esp v. 6-8)
2. Forgiveness is a high priority - but not at the price of a soul gone astray. Paul Williams and Bruce Brooke should have been brought before the church for chastisement AND the opportunity for repentance - they are to be held accountabile in order to bring them to repentance - they should not be given a "pass". (Matthew 18)
3. Unity is a high priority - but not at the expense of truth. - Numbers 15:24-29, 30 (sins of ignorance and presumption)
4. Love is a high priority. - as long as our love is coming forth from our love of Jesus ONLY. - Romans 12 esp v9)
5. Religious People (judaizers) is a low priority - Recognized by the fruits of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22)vs the character of Man (II Tim. 3)
6. Living a life marked with peace, love and service should be our goal. - So is the goal of a monk in Tibet - our lives should be marked by the blood of Jesus. (Titus 3:5)
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth. John 4:23-24
Truth is something that has escaped from Bellevue. Our pastor Steve Gaines, along with his men he surrounds himself with have been caught and proven to have not spoken truth to the masses. When caught, it’s “I’m sorry or “different words mean different things to people”, or “don’t record me unless you tell me you are recording.”
Simply living for Jesus inside and outside the church is a beautiful act of love for Christ. Unfortunately, the power of following and abiding in Jesus has been lost inside Bellevue as of late.
We are experiencing our leadership, from the pulpit to the elders, forsaking Jesus and His wonderful Word and replacing Jesus with their own selfish agendas, secret clicks, elitism, and money making deals. How in the world are new believers coming into this environment going to grow in the knowledge and love for our Lord and Savior?
Bellevue will cease to exist one day if we continue down the road we are headed.
Does anyone know the answer to my question/post at 12:42???
gmommylv,
Brian Miller is in charge as Chairman of the Deacons, of who gets to know what, when, and if.
Brian Miller, Jeff Arnold Jr., and John Caldwell meet once a week with the pastor to hold him accountable. Brian is in the loop. Hope this helps.
truthorlie?
Who holds John Caldwell accountable? Interesting choice of accountability partners by the leadership.
mom4,
I would imagine Pat.
...meet once a week with the pastor to hold him accountable.
Accountable to what?
concernedSBCer said...
Tim: Someone other than you (the creator of it) had the power to remove the petition? I don't understand.....
Reply:
The administrator of the web site removed the petition at 11:48pm.
It would be naive to believe that out of the thousands of petitions that are active, this one was singled out without an outside influence.
It would also be naive to believe that the mere displeasure from a third party concerning a particular petition would cause them to remove one since there are thousands that are controversial.
I would expect that there must have been a demand placed upon them that was held in high regard and caused them to consider legal liabilities if they did not remove it.
The fact that I have sent six emails to them in regard to this issue with no response is quite telling. Obviously, they did not have any problem responding to someone at 11:48pm last night.
Terry Smith said:
It is also a convenient place for me to tithe to the Lord and to help others in His work.
SOTL says:
So do you approve of your tithes going to the CUMC? A church, with a woman pastor, who is pro abortion and pro homosexuality?
$25,000 of YOUR tithe monty went to fund those two things. As a Christian, I, personally, cannot fathom that MY money would be spent on things that the Bible disapproves of. But that's just me. Perhaps you are different.
I just received my two letters and didn't bother to open them. THey went into the circular file immediately, with the other trash.
truth or lie said:
Brian Miller is in charge as Chairman of the Deacons, of who gets to know what, when, and if.
Brian Miller, Jeff Arnold Jr., and John Caldwell meet once a week with the pastor to hold him accountable. Brian is in the loop. Hope this helps.
1:20 PM, February 17, 2007
SOTL SAYS:
Is this the SAME John Caldwell that scaled a fence marked "no tresspassing"
Is this the SAME john Caldwell that has YET to apologize to Mark Sharpe?
Is this the SAME John Caldwell that made a fool of himself at the seminary, praying outloud ( yelling) for Mr. Saba?
Is this the SAME John Caldwell whose daughter and son in law were brought up here from Alabama to be on staff for the pastor?
Is this the SAME John CAldwell who was on the Pulpit Committee?
And now you tell me that he is an accountability partner for SG? LOLOLOL!!! I am falling out of my chair.
If SG wants REAL accountability partners as opposed to straw ones, he should bring Richard Emmerson and Mark Sharpe on board. Those two men of integrity will hold his feet to the fire. SG might even learn a thing or two about TRUTH and INTEGRITY.
Don't hold your breath waiting for THAT to happen, though.
Terry,
"For who has despised the day of small things?" (Zech.4: 10)
"'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the Lord of Hosts.
What are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become a plain..." (Zech. 4:6-7a)
I appreciate your comments and the spirit in which you share them. However, I believe you are leaving God out of the picture in some ways.
Terry said:
"There is nothing to fight. As a congregational people majority rules. There is no need to disrupt your life any longer, let it go. The numbers for the opposition to the current leadership just aren’t there and because of human nature, they never will be there."
There is an enemy. If there was not an enemy and nothing to fight, we would not need the armor of God; we would not be told our enemy prowls like a lion seeking for those he can devour. We would not be told to stand firm. While our enemy is not flesh and blood, he deceives flesh and blood people. His deception, in all forms, is what we must stand against and fight.
The church is God's idea and by His design. Throughout history, God has used a minority to inform and warn the majority. The majority response in the OT either saved them from catastrophe or caused them to be taken into captivity.
The tide is turning. The minority is rapidly growing in number, but numbers are not enough. The believer’s strength is not in numbers, money, positions of power, etc. Our strength is in God and God alone. The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God. Are these weapons for destroying other Christians? Of course not, they are for tearing down the works of the enemy.
There is a schism to so wide at Bellevue no man can heal it. Bellevue has gone from flagship of the SBC to floundering and is in grave danger of sinking. There can be no compromise of honesty, integrity, truthfulness, or walking in God’s ways. Man’s ideas and philosophy are no substitute for the holy ways of God. Bellevue walked in God’s way and has been blessed of God NOT because of inherent goodness, intelligence, wealth, but because of obedience and right relationship to God. Bellevue has been a group of redeemed sinners committed to doing God’s work God’s way.
Deception and false philosophy have crept in. The PDL, PDC, CGM, et al have much truth in them. What is presented is not 100% wrong, but it is founded on the reasonings and philosophy of man and the error will be fatal to the church.
I do not believe God intends for there to be legacy churches and new believer churches. What church should not be open and friendly to seeker? But, what church should depart from God’s precepts and principles. Do big numbers mean true growth for the kingdom of God?
Have you researched the agenda of the new age movement? It appears that now the educational system is where they want it, the next step is to infiltrate the church and weaken it. They have made great strides. Is this some thing we want to think about? Probably not. Is it something that we are comfortable to remain in denial about? Apparently so. Yet the danger is incredible.
Does God have a solution? I believe it is found in 2 Chron. 7:14
“IF MY PEOPLE who are called by My name humble themselves and pray, and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven, will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.”
This is one redeemed sinner, humbled by the love and grace of Jesus, who will stand, even in a minority of one, for truth, integrity,
honesty, and obeying God.
Ruth Ann
I have frequent this board in the past because of my concern with decisions of the current leadership. However, you people have been successful in turning something that may have started with good intentions into a personal agenda against the church leadership.
Mr Coombs said it best in his letter that if you don't like the ways things are going, strive for a leadership position within the church to help change it.
Some of you seem to be having fun "lawyering" up everything the leadership does. Stroking your egos in this way is really getting old. Really. Grow up and try the suggested tactic for change, but this ain't gettin it.
ESTHER HAS VERY WISELY STATED in reply to comments by Terry Smith,
"There is quite a bit more I could write on this subject but your analysis is right out of secular humanism and is man centered. Milk Christians need to be around meat Christians. That is part of the plan. Do you remember that Paul admonished them for wanting their milk too long."
****
Now, that's what I'm talkin'about!
GO, ESTHER! You are shining!
Dee
(Just now catching up on the blog)
Grow up?
Now there's some constructive advice. Thanks.
If you'd like to discuss these issues, you are more than welcome to do so, but if this is all you have to say, save it.
backrowbaptist:
"you people" is a little disrespectful, don't you think? The BBC members that frequent this blog are striving for one thing: TRUTH. Accountability will come with that and consequences will be up to God alone.
back row said...
"Mr Coombs said it best in his letter that if you don't like the ways things are going, strive for a leadership position within the church to help change it."
This is a wonderful option and it most definitely sounds real good to the average reader, as is the goal of the statement.
Please explain how this is to be an option when the powers that be monopolize each and every committee (the same committees that they have controlled for many years). Unless these wealthy men yield themselves to the Lord and release their grip of power, there is no hope of an average member even having a say in the events of the church, let alone having the opportunity to serve on a committee. We cannot even get a scheduled business meeting as required by law, what makes anyone think we could ever get an average member on a committee?
I am not attempting to be promoting my personal agenda or "lawyering up", I would really, really like for someone to tell me how Mr. Coombs' statement is a viable option.
consernedsbcr,
AMEN!
I think backrowbaptist is more likely a frontrowbaptist at BBC perhaps on the platform at times.
Now, I'm only going to tell you this one more time.
"Be quiet, stop your yapping, and quietly continue to put your offerings in the plate tomorrow while it's being passed around. We've got work to do."
Even though I feel that generally the attention span of the world is short, there are some people who will follow this whole process through to see how we end up on the other side.
Would any of "[insert non-offensive term here] side" care to comment on what mis-steps have been taken while responding to this situation?
Which one of the Situations would you be referring to????There are so many I have lost count?
That would be the situation in general. You pick if you would like to address something specific.
Well since BePatient can't decide which situation she/he wants discussed I think I will take a coffee break...
Backrow,
So, you've been concerned by the decisions of the administration? What action has the administration taken to remove those concerns? The investigation into PW? Have you not seen how flawed that farce was? Oh, it sounded really good but when you really opened your eyes and comprehended what they were saying it pretty much equals ZERO progress. Now we find out that DC is due to be ordained a minister at BBC. I'd like to be ordained a minister please. Can I just show up and receive that title? Or do I have to be intimately involved in a huge cover-up protecting the leadership and denying general congregation it's due rights by law before I can have that title bestowed upon me? I hope more people actually read those 2 letters they're going to get in the mail today and then pray about them. If they do they will begin to see the problems with BBC arrogance, deceitfulness, pride.
Esther stated in her debate with Terry Smith,
"The only context they need is scripture. And none of what you describe is in scripture. Did you not hear what I said about believers in Afghanistan? They blow your 'theory' to bits. They long for mature believers to teach them. Why? What is the difference? The answer to that will tell you what is wrong with the American church.
Terry, if anything I have said sounds cold and harsh to a 'seeker' (which I do not agree that seekers exist because of what Paul writes in Romans) then they must hate the scriptures and that explains using all the psychology in churches to water down truth.
Psychology is inherently man centered. Scripture is God centered. They do not go together but we have for at least 3 generations been taught that they do. It is a lie from the Angel of Light."
****
Oh, Esther, the Lord is using you today.
As a matter of fact, the Lord is using Terry Smith, too. In Terry we are seeing a part of the body of Christ that is going to be used to reveal some very important truths that were before UNDERLYING and UNSEEN. They are things that have been making our body of Christ unhealthy and sick and dying. Now, that the X raying light of the Lord is being aimed at the unhealthy spot, healing can begin. Perhaps, Terry Smith will be the messenger even who will relate the diagnosis back to the others.
Dee
Bepatient...
(BTW the list is growing... see I. 8-10)
Here are a few important changes that would help restore the trust of many members during these days of crisis in leadership:
I. Pastoral Accountability to the Congregation:
1. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... and any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
2. The giving records of the membership and the ministers on staff at Bellevue should never be for pastoral review--or any other minister's, layperson's, or committee's review--in any shape, form, or fashion. That should be between God and the giver, period!
3. Due to concern for potential abuse, no church credit cards.
4. An admission that the pastor should never have suggested and/or recommended that $25k be given to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
5. A policy for open books on Holy land trips--or any other trip-- and no overcharging of members.
6. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
7. Immediate removal from office of ministers guilty of sexual immorality with immediate coordination with the appropriate authorities if any laws have been broken by a minister (no matter how long ago), including thorough investigation of the matter when the minister’s conduct may have affected other church members or their children.
8. Compliance with the laws of Tennessee—within the specified time for compliance as outlined by statute--with regard to requests from membership for information, such as: membership list, financial records, current bylaws, business meeting minutes, and finance committee meeting minutes.
9. Any Business Luncheon or Breakfast, etc. should be approached as a ministry of the church and the charge should be commensurate to the actual expense. Use of proceeds should be reviewed by the body via financial reporting to the congregation. Otherwise there could be the appearance of profit instead of ministry.
10. More careful consideration of candidates for ordination with due consideration of congregational approval. If the congregation is not in one accord with regard to a candidate, then the reasons for the objections should be given serious consideration and answered satisfactorily in order to preserve congregational unity.
II. Congregational Church governance:
Some of the congregation has awakened to the reality that our church has a set of non-elected "lay-elders," a close knit group of men who manage to be appointed to key positions year after year. The rest of the congregation needs to be awakened.
1. Those that are part of this lay-elder "power block" need to step down from positions of influence for a long time. Bellevue needs “new blood” in these key positions.
2. There needs to be the signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services for the church. These people should not be allowed to serve on committees that review bids for their services.
3. Congregational nomination of and election of all of the Board of Directors as called for in the 1929 bylaws.
4. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. **The current bylaws mention "monthly" business meetings! When were they changed??
5. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
8. Thorough communication with the Congregation for ANY capital project well in advance of any vote. Building prayer buildings or any other type of building should be brought through proper channels to the congregation for prayerful consideration--not coerced "rubber stamping." [By the way, BBC's former leadership taught us quite a bit about prayer. As a matter of fact, I believe all of the current buildings ARE prayer buildings already. BBC's former leadership taught us quite a bit about worship also... but that's another topic].
9. Bellevue needs to reject Warrenism fully and finally.
10. Higher standards should be put in place for the hiring of "ministers." Seminary training should be considered a normal prerequisite.
11. A new policy should be drafted that would govern the formation of future pastor search committees according to traditional Baptist polity. Qualifications for service should be given (in part to avoid potential future conflicts of interest) and future committee members should be nominated and approved by the whole congregation.
III. Treatment of ministers on staff at BBC and members:
1. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members.
2. The end of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members; and the end of signing non-disclosure statements. All ministers who have been pressured or asked to sign such non-disclosure statements should be released from them in writing by BBC! Former staff should be allowed to address the congregation and/or the deacon body either in writing or in person without any fear of reprisal regarding their exit from BBC. The congregation needs to know how their leadership has treated and is treating ministers who leave the service of our Lord through BBC.
3. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.
All in my opinion as usual.
We are to be “providing things honestly in the sight of all men” (Rom. 12:17). Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."
25+,
I don't see how this addresses the choices of those responding to the leadership?
Bepatient,
Choices?
Bellevue is dying right now. Some see it others don't. I can't open your eyes to it if you don't see it.
This is a crisis that calls for leadership to return to the Bible. The Pastor should talk to the people without Communications Committees, lay buffers, and/or lawyers.
BOTH sides should prayerfully and humbly be allowed to present their respective sides to the congregation.
There is no vehicle for accountability right now for the leadership.
Bellevue is like a run away train. The Engine room is locked and only the inner circle have keys to enter. The only response--choices are not plural--allowed the membership now is buckle up or jump.
The bridge is out, but no one is listening in the engine room. The ravine ahead is the valley of dry bones. Asia Minor has many ruins of once great churches. Don't think it can't happen.
If you have confidence in the flesh of some leader--his gifts, abilities, etc... Without truth you will go on without God. Without God you will have a form of godliness that will be without His power. That is living death.
all jmo.
backrow,
Strive for leadership positions in the church? This is not politics,{well, it's not supposed to be}. You suggest lobbying for position? Are you really a Baptist?
Oh, and socwork, where is my car? Help me out, concerned!
Esther, Mom4, Socwork, Truthorlies?,Allofgrace, JU, 25+yrs@bbc, 2Chron7:14,
Listen carefully. I am NOT praising YOU for the battle you just fought.
And, Terry Smith, I am NOT putting you down for being on the other side of this morning's battle for you have represented an ailing side of the body of Christ very admirably, and this is NOT personally directed towards you.
The Spirit in me is glad for the work that has just been accomplished here in His Name's Sake.
It is constantly amazing to me almost every day the things I learn from those of you who have devoted so much of your time and lives to knowing the Lord Jesus Christ and learning His beautiful Word and serving Him. I am humbled but I am also very proud (not in a worldly way) of you. You are great defenders of the Word. Thank you for being with us during these difficult but blessed times.
JESUS IS LORD! AMEN AND HALLELUJAH!
bbc senior citizen, THANKYOU for making these points so much better than I can, appreciate that.
Here is the scripture shared yesterday regarding STRIVING, yet still eternally applicable
Ro. 15:30
Now I beseech you, brethren, fo the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye dtrive together, with me in your prayers to God for me;
Lu.13:24
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many,, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
2Ti. 2:24
And the servant of the Lord must not STRIVE; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient
25. in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth
26. and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. 1Ti.3:1
Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer (shepherd, pastor), he desires a noble task.
1Ti4:9-10
9.and for this we labor and strive, that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially those who believe. 10.So I STRIVE always to keep my concience clear before God and man.
I reckon I'll start my campaign soon since nowadays it's not necessary to be 'called' anymore. Yahoo! Let's strike up the band and kiss babies!
Ok, ok, oc. I'm not really Oprah Winfrey. I'm so sorry. Please, try to pick up the pieces and move on, ok? ;)
Seriously though, you guys (in the gender neutral sense) make me laugh.
socwork, I'm trying not to be offended, but I must say that I'm not 'gender neutral'. But I will try to get over you not being Oprah!:}
SOCWORK:
Sorry about starting the car rumor yesterday. I was really hoping that you were Oprah. It would have helped so much to be able to cry with her.
oc, my apologies; have a ho-ho on me. :)
aslansown, you too.
In fact, ho-ho's for everyone! (*while supplies last*)
Dee,
Thank you for your humble and gentle spirit! We all need to be reminded that the battle that we wage is for the restoration of integrity in the pulpit and BBC leadership. The glory will be God's alone.
I am thinking that based on the amount of exposure our soon-to-be administrative pastor is gathering, one could suppose that his hiring and his promotion to a ministerial position is a front to deflect controversy from the true leadership, thus enabling them to proceed with their planning and positioning within the church.
I am beginning to wonder if David Coombs is in over his head and he just does not know it - could it be that he honestly trusts the leadership and thinks he is doing something worthwhile by covering for them?
Something just does not set right (another check in my spirit!!!)Someone help me out here - is this a real possibility?
Oh, and Dee, thanks for the encouraging words. :)
alansown, Oh man! It's not true? You started a rumor? As Dr. Phil would say,"how's that workin' for ya?", cause it doesn't work for me! Whaaaaaaaa!
can't drive a ho-ho and crying on it would make such a mess!
You guys are so IMATURE! It was a mistake of the head and not the heart, OK?
It would have worked fine if it had reallybeen Oprah.
mom4,
I think that is a very distinct possibility, personally.
One would hope that he really has no idea, and thinks he is doing the right thing. Wouldn't be the first time...
We are so easily deceived and tricked. Deception is so subtle.
I'm not sure which is more disturbing... the possibility that he really doesn't get it and thinks he's somehow doing the right thing, OR, the possibility that he understands exactly what he's doing and continues in the same direction. jmo
All...
I have already made mention of the True Church Conference taking place at First Baptist Church of Muscle Shoal in Muscle Shoals, AL in May.
Pastor Jeff Noblitt was a guest of VCY Radio host, Ingrid Schuelter, yesterday (Friday) talking about this True Church Conference soon coming up. You may listen to this broadcast right here . My husband and I plan to go...it would be great if some of you could come too. When you listen to this broadcast, you may decide to do just that.
Ima
aslansown, If it really had been Oprah, think of how many ho ho's we could get!
Think of all the therapy.
Think of the diet we would have to be on!
OC,
Just looked at your profile. OOOOPS! on the therapy. My refernce was to Oprah. Yikes! My foot just dropped out of my mouth.
Diet nothing, more like a kill-it.
Need to go play with the little cubs now.
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