"Moral Failures Thrive in Silence"
Wendi Thomas wrote this article in today's edition of the Commercial Appeal.
"Report on pastor's 'moral failure' may come by Jan. 20"
Pamela Perkins wrote this article in yesterday's edition.
FOX13 News coverage is here.
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488 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 488 Newer› Newest»"If it was all about power, I would be publishing your name on here, but I won't for the sake of your own protection. "
Who does 4545 need protection from?
NASS
Check yo little ol' mail box.
Bepatient,
He would probably need protection from Chuck Taylor because Chuck told him not to be on this blog, remember?
Just don't want him getting in trouble with Chuck! :)
NBBCOF
And to all a good night...
Dee
be patient
I guess wee little pigs can be scary.
I am not afraid of Chuck Taylor- if he ever ask you- you feel free to tell him my name....
NBBCOF,
Slight correction. Chuck Taylor is no longer head of the deacons. It is now Brian Miller who spanks them soundly and send them to bed.
Got it now, Thank you grace :)
Hey that is pretty insulting Tim- one of those deacons is my family and he can certainly think for himself and doesn't need B. Miller to tell him what to do...
Lets keep the sarcasm to a minimum. These are real people we are talking about.
(off topic)
I've been thinking about the labels...
pro-bbc, anti-bbc, pro-Gaines, anti-Gaines...
A problem with all four is that they are name-specific. I maintaim that what we are talking about here is not just bbc, not just Gaines.
Try this...
pro-pulpit
vs.
. pro-pew
Comments?
Nass, I just sent a second email.
Bible in a year, I think it is what it is.....
pro-truth
pro-accountability
pro-transparency
bepatient,
It is incredible that you suddenly judge and condemn sarcasm. Although I don't believe that it was intended in that manner.
It would certainly be nice if the deacons would pull their heads out of the sand, take a look around at what is happening, and actually do something about it. Perhaps you might convey that message.
cjesusnme
If you are lurking -you have mail!
I encourage anyone who has clicked on the link Saving Bellevue has about FBC Daytona to research further before passing judgement. I believe a lot of the criticism of Dr. Gaines on the blog has been from a feeling that he is hiding criticism and not addressing the concerns of the congregation. I think if you check out the FBC Daytona website, you will find that Dr. Cox has addressed the concerns brought by people in his congregation passing around a document accusing FBC of being purpose driven in a document he has placed on the website. His latest addition to the website includes a letter of resignation from a staff member that contains accusations against Dr. Cox and Dr.Cox's response to the allegations. I think his responses are well worth the time spent reading and praying over. Maybe we can all learn something here. I do think the webmaster at Saving Bellevue should link the responses from Dr. Cox, also. It is only fair. He did actually take the time to respond- hear him out.
By the way...
I'm
pro-revival
I know others are pro-revival "allies" as well, but it is my first objective while it seems to be secondary to the pro-pew folks and the pro-pulpit folks.
imho.
Praise God for the blessing of seeing how gently some of you spoke to prodigal brother Trollcates today about things that really matters. May God bless this blog!
Trollcates... did you see where I asked you to please share your salvation story of how you accepted Jesus? That was back a long time ago, I know.
Well. I hope it was sarcasm- unless you literally think that Bryan drives to each of their houses and spanks them and sends them to bed?? ;-) I didn't mean it as harsh as it sounded, but you are painting all the deacons with a broad brush. My family member does NOT have his head in the sand and know a lot more about all that is going on than most any of us. So it unfair to assume that just because they don't agree with you means that they are not informed.
bepatient,
Well the deacon body has certainly been awfully silent about everything. They seem quite content to stick their hands in their pockets and let someone else handle it all.
Ask when the last time was that they legitametly discussed an issue and voted on it, after a committee presented a recommendation. Ask if you could get the minutes for the past two years of deacon meetings as well. I could really use a copy of that.
I forgot to say that the response to the purpose driven document is on th emain page of the FBC Daytona website. To read the letter of resignation from a staff member and the response, you have to click on additional ministries on the left hand side of the main page, then click on a "special message from Dr. Cox".
pro-truth
...but both sides claim to have the truth. To commend being pro-revival I would add: since the Holy Spirit (He is The Truth) is in at least a few on both sides, it is only by revival (not by "defeating the other side") that we can any of us hope be better guided into the Truth.
pro-accountability
Both sides are claiming this as well. One sides say we should be accountable to the pulpit, the other says to the pew (Mathew 18:17... tell the whole church.. the pew). Pro-revival says... we all need to be confesing to God right now. Accountability needs to start in the mirror.
pro-transparency
Both sides claim the other is plotting in secret. Both sides are claiming to be transparent. Through revival, we get reacquainted with the fact that God sees all our hearts. And he's not 100% happy with what he see in any of us.
Thanks for seeing my post!
crushed
I'll check it out. Thanks.
I am sure I could get copies of whatever I wanted that he has... would I pass them on? No. They are not mine to publish or pass out.
Perhaps the deacons don't all agree with the way this is being "handled".. perhaps they think there is nothing to be handled...
It is a big leap to assume you know they way they feel and how much information they have and what they should think about what needs to be done. I can't speak for all of them. I can speak for the one I know very well, and the others that I know just from years at Bellevue.
bepatient,
Nah, I can't say that I know about all 180 or so. Of course, I feel certain that you can't either. Just some that I have known over the past 25 years or so.
I would like to thank our moderator, Not A Stepford Sheep, for all of her efforts to make this blog possible and keep it going strong.
This is a mininstry like AllOfGrace and WTBarrister were talking about AOG's sb blog earlier today.
And everyone here is contributing to this ministry.
Nass does a lot of work so that we can can post here.
Thank you, Moderator
Good night, all.
I'm headed to bed myself. Night all.
yeah, I have been at Bellevue about 25 years myself. But that is a large group of men that are remaining mostly silent. I find it hard to believe that these men who were Godly enough to become deacons, are all just that blind. I have spoken to quite a few of them, and I think you will find that they are very well informed on the issues...
Yeah, Bible, I got ya, meant no disrespect, but if we go into that then we'll get on what I'm doing now, spiritually-speaking, and somebody will complain that I ruined a perfectly good prayer by mentioning Buddha and Tibet. Then, pretty much the only conversation I'm due is about where I'm spending eternity.
You know, I don't wish to be unkind about this, but I have articulated many contexts for being here; in my heart of hearts, I know it is your love and concern, but yes, I'm feeling like a "case," somewhat patronized.
You all might find some benefit in getting out of the cloister. Last I checked, Southern Baptist don't corner the market on truth (and certainly not compassion). I just have never understand why anyone needs to dog someone elses milieu, be they christian, hindu or muslim.
The truth is, you don't; further, who amongst us has any right to do so?
Every fundementalist knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that they serve the one true God; unfortunately, it's just not the same one. Sorry, but no Bible verses, or stirrings inside me (what if it's last night's pizza?) are going to make me draw such an exclusive line in my psyche.
The my-way-or-the-highway brand of religion is unappealing to me in this regard. Furthermore, if ones entry into the fold is centered upon fear of eternal damnation, it is still a concern for self-preservation, so how noble is it really? Sure doesn't do much about the ego.
But here's the nice thing about my faith--if that's your thing, then may God bless you and give you peace.
This is pepper, I am new to this blog.
IMA said,
"I am afraid it has become so attractive that perhaps one chooses to be a pastor the same as one chooses to become a doctor or lawyer. The call they may be hearing may be their own, instead of the call of the Lord. This is very serious and I would never mock it...I am speaking very seriously. I pray those who are entering the cloth these days are clearly hearing the call of God into ministry."
Very true...I think that's part of the problem that leads to church members using the "This is the man God appointed to be our pastor so we must support him no matter what" speech.
Last night someone took a few of you to task for your concern with doctrine and theology.
1 Timothy 1 says:
As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work—which is by faith. The goal of this command is love...
(empasis mine)
Thank you for your love for doctrine and theology. Many of you have challenged me to study more. You should be commended and defended.
allofgrace,
My husband has changed some of his views after reading comments a few of you make. He ordered books and has been reading and studying for weeks. A point he made when he read Terry Smith's comment last night was if there is no one around who knows sound doctrine, churches could teach anything and we would believe it. He said that explains the Southern Baptists who have become Mormons. That also explains the popularity of Joel Osteen. If those people really knew their Bibles they would not be so easily taken in.
I love your passion for Scripture.
Proverbs 12:22 said...
"allofgrace, My husband has changed some of his views after reading comments a few of you make. He ordered books and has been reading and studying for weeks. A point he made when he read Terry Smith's comment last night was if there is no one around who knows sound doctrine, churches could teach anything and we would believe it. He said that explains the Southern Baptists who have become Mormons. That also explains the popularity of Joel Osteen. If those people really knew their Bibles they would not be so easily taken in."
Proverbs...how this warms my heart! Thanks so much for sharing this...it makes our journey TRUTH so much easier to travel! Wonderful...
Father in Heaven,
I praise your name for the honor of a new week knowing beyond the shadow of a doubt that you love all of us. You love us so much that you let your one and only child (100% innocent child) be beaten. Beaten brutally... shamefully... scandalously... publicly... then hung up on two boards of wood to slowly die of suffocation one breath at a time in front of the whole city, the whole country, the cross roads between the Asian, African, and European worlds, documented vividly and now known in every nation. And yet you love us that much. Help us to study your word and apply it at BBC. Help us to make your word relevant in deep renewing ways.
In Jesus's name,
AMEN.
Day 15: Genesis 43-46
American English translation ("NIV")
King James
Please pray a Great Commission prayer for today's nation of the day: Azerbaijan
My dear prodigal brother Trollcates,
Thank you for your gentle reply. Thank you for letting me know that you considered my request.
Hear is one assurance I can give you.
If you will think back into your earlier years and recall the process that led you to believe in Jesus (back then), and then very gentley tell us that same story here it would be greatly appreciated. Please try to think back to how you felt back then. Don't think about how you feel now.
We just want to know how you enountered Jesus back then. That will help us to embrace our faith. We really need that right now.
I do agree that if you start "projecting backwards" the feelings you have now into the older story, people will take offense at that. If you do want to talk about that, you and I could go into email. I'm sure that you want to get some anger of some kind off your chest. Your comments lead me to believe you have endured intense spiritual abuse. You are very wise in saying this forum is neither the time nor place for complaints about Jesus followers from a self-professing non-Christian. But I have time for you over email.
So you are wise to be cautious about not wanting to bruise any feelings here. I suggest that you take several hours considering this request before you reply (either yes or no).
Don't do an injustice to yourself by covering up your old memories and feelings and beliefs. Just my humble suggestion.
Peace be with you.
"in a year"
P.S. you can get my email address from NBBCOF.
P.P.S. Alternately, you can talk about any of these things privately & confidentially by calling or visiting BBC, MABTS, or GBC. They can be trusted. I can actually go in advance if you want me to so that you don't have to be uncomfortable explaining to the receptionist. I'm just saying, "if."
Peace :)
Question:
What is the difference between this "Bellevue Blog" and the members only blog?
Memphis,
The Members Only blog is Jim Haywood's ode to the 80's. It is a little known fact he has the world's largest collection of Members Only jackets. He wore Panama Jack t-shirts and sported a mohawk for most of the decade. He has a whole room full of parachute pants, leg warmers and stonewashed jeans. In his Donkey Kong room Michael Jackson's Thriller plays on an endless video loop. I've heard he has an exact replica of the Nightrider car in storage.
Memphis,
I'm goofy today :)
In all seriousness, I'm curious about it too.
AOG,
I'm just having fun. I know this is serious. Does that mean we can't laugh at ourselves a little. I think we are wearing our feelings on our sleeves. I've never seen so many demanding apologies and pretending to be hurt.
i love my church,
Jim's going to be very disappointed you told!
ummm, I still have my members only jacket!
and you have to admit that "Kit" was the bomb!
But I would still like to know about the members only since I am a member of BBC.
AOG, thanks, I will have to wait to check it tonight.
I have personally posted only about four or five times but have been reading your posts now for a long time. It has become apparent to me that some people in defending Dr. Gaines seem to be the ones “spewing hate and lies” and not the other way around as they would have you believe. To distract and initiate argument seems to be their purpose for posting.
In contrast, the regular posters are answering these Dr. Gaines defenders in a caring non offensive manner. You choose your words carefully and speak them lovingly as Christians. But the Dr. Gaines defenders jump at picking your words apart with abuse and criticism.
Even though I am not a member of Bellevue anymore, my dear wife, our two children, and I were all saved at Bellevue. We were all baptized at Bellevue. Our children were raised in the Bellevue choir under the outstanding Christian leadership of Dr. JW. They both met their spouses at Bellevue and were married at Bellevue. Our son was ordained into the Ministry at Bellevue. So you see, Bellevue is dear to our hearts and will always be.
By reading your posts, I have been so blessed by what you have written. You have searched and found scripture and presented it in a Christian way. You are, without doubt, honoring our Lord with your devoutness and sincerity as you continue to stand for His truth. I am so privileged to stand with you. I am praying for you, please pray for me.
I really don't think recanting a conversion experience that didn't stick will encourage anyone, and that part of my life was so long ago anyway.
I have no regrets for that time, and I love and support my Christian brethren, because, intense spiritual abuse or not, the circumstances (in several contexts) of my life make me sympathetic to people at BBC.
It really feels as though I'm being vetted. In the absence of much give and take otherwise, I don't understand the priority here. Do my experiences as a survivor of childhood sexual abuse or other relevant sympathies not count for jack unless I'm a christian?
Because if that is the case, that reflects more poorly on the cloister than it does on me.
hecanhear,
Amen to your comments.
I've also noticed that it isn't hard to find truth if you want to find it. It's interesting that staff members both present and past along with members who have raised questions have not been interviewed by staff or deacons who support Gaines 100% like Mike Pruett for example.
Things have either happened or they have not. Refusing to open the financial books and refusing listen to both sides says it all. As long as Bellevue's pastor and leadership run from Truth, we have no church. Going through the motions does not constitute a church.
Well, I don't want to sound too judgemental either; kindness is a virtue, even if it is occasionally misappropriated.
I do appreciate your concern for my soul, but I'm here on a different call.
bless all of you.
Allofgrace,
I hear you about knowing the Lord has a sense of humor when you look in the mirror.
I wasn't making fun of Jim Haywood or Memphis. I am sure I would like them both. I have no earthly idea what the Members Only blog is. Obviously, I'm not a member. If someone knows please tell us.
Memphis,
Kit was so cool!
It's time to rid yourself of the Members Only jacket though.
To All - consider that while all of this blogging goes on, and we all make points and argue issues, SG and his lovely wife, DG, live in opulence and luxury, buy the finest clothes, eat at the finest restaurants, and live in the finest homes while driving luxury vehicles, all on that tithed money to BBC. And if that doesn't bother you enough, SG will be preaching at an Identity Conference and then later at a Pastor's Conference, where he will be an honored speaker and paid handsomely for both. He will prepare for those sermons while being paid by BBC also. So continue on blogging and arguing BBC sheep. Those doing the fleecing can wait as long as it takes for this to all die down.
hecanhear said:
It has become apparent to me that some people in defending Dr. Gaines seem to be the ones “spewing hate and lies” and not the other way around as they would have you believe. To distract and initiate argument seems to be their purpose for posting.
In contrast, the regular posters are answering these Dr. Gaines defenders in a caring non offensive manner. You choose your words carefully and speak them lovingly as Christians. But the Dr. Gaines defenders jump at picking your words apart with abuse and criticism.
Reply: Please read with without any tone or argumentative style in it, but I would have to disagree that one "side" is any worse than the other. Both are full of sarcasm and belittleing comments, I have even made some myself. I think you are mistaking the "supporters" comments as questioning the facts, i.e. the restaraunt budget numbers, the claim that SG said he was unaware of an investigation, and exactly what was said when. Many people will just take things on peoples words, which in turn many will not take them at their word.
I would hope that in all of our discussions, we are trying to build people up instead of tear them down to get our points across, although sadly many fail to convene an opinion in a matter that does build the membership up. People all want truth in these matters and people want accountability as well. We also want truth and accountability on here as well witht he comments. To state a fact, and then when questioned on that fact, for someone to say to say look it up yourself gives no creditablity no matter which side one proclaims. I know that someone will probably rip my post apart, but I think to point out one side over the other is grossly unfair.
Memphis,
I agree as always :-)
I do find that way we "pro SG" people are viewed around here as odd. We are no more or less argumentative, "hateful", etc. We don't use sarcasm any more than any one else.
I think the thing I see that consistently sets us apart is that we are willing to see our own faults- just as we are willing to see SG's faults. We just don't think that is all he is as a man.
We can admit that he is human- both bad and good.
We can admit that we are human-both bad and good.
It is dangerous when you start labeling the "enemy" but aren't willing to look at yourself first.
And to be fair, there are some of you that are realistic about this- you know who you are so know that I don't mean you...
The difference I see, is that the pro-gaines people are willing to give the Pastor's words a pass ("moral failure"--oh, hyperbole) while nit-picking here.
I think y'alls scrutiny is very selective, and most unattractive.
Okay, deep breath.
One more time. What terminology would you have preferred to hear from the pulpit? There were children present.
And forgiveness and understanding and grace are not the same as a free pass. He may still have consequences to pay, but it is not up to me to decide at this point.
As far as calling what we do unattractive - I am not even going to dignify that. It is just petty and unproductive.
Bellevue friend...
While I appreciate your input and insight into our situation, please know that Dr Gaines' "earned doctorate" was paid for by using daycare funds from West Jackson without their knowledge. Also, please know that Dr Adrian Rogers worked for over 30 years to attain the salary he EARNED prior to his retirement. That salary was what was given to him by the church, he did not demand anything - at all. On the other hand, Steve Gaines has demanded (and received without congregational knowledge or approval) a salary and perks almost double that EARNED by Dr Adrian Rogers. Where does the scripture say that a workman can rob the church? I believe it says that a workman is worthy of his hire. Please tell me where the workman Steve Gaines is worth more than Adrian Rogers?
NOT EVEN IN HIS DREAMS WILL HE BEGIN TO COMPARE!!!!
As to the fact that we do not know what he gives back to the church, I know for a fact that he gives meager offerings to worthy causes so he can brag about his "supporting the cause". There are several groups he has donated to in his years, and it is no where near the widow's mite.
These groups are non-profits, so if anyone wants to check it out - just call them.
Bellevue friend,
Pastors who walk around with an elitism attitude do much harm to the cause of Christ in His church and in the world.
A mega-church pastor should not be treated any differently than another pastor.
$400,000plus packages are ludicrous for any pastor of any size church.
Even Dr. Rogers didn't make get paid close to what Steve Gaines is making.
The larger the church, pastor usually have more staff to delegate duties to.
I love pastors who not only preach Sunday morning and Sunday night, but actually preach on Wednesday nights. God bless each one of you.
They also council, baptize, perform weddings, funeral, baby dedications, etc. They serve in the church wherever needed.
Bellevuefriend,
I believe Dr. Gaines would prefer peace to the luxury and opulence you criticize.
I'm sure he would prefer peace instead of what's going on but remember, he's the one who created this environment.
We would not be upset about his salary package if he wasn't arrogant and lacking in integrity behind the pulpit.
It's not wrong for a congregation to expect integrity in their pastor. It's not wrong for a congregation to expect a pastor to have a gentle spirit. It's not wrong for a congregation to expect their pastor to be truthful. If we can't expect that from our pastor, he needs to step down and resign.
I wish he would step down and find peace again somewhere else. In order for our church to heal, I think this is going to have to happen.
Bellevue friend - well said and I truly understand your points. However, I still have a problem with the idea of "entitlement" to make 1/2 a million dollars a year as a baptist pastor that does not seem biblical and Christ-like to me. The same qualifications you mention could be said of school teachers, yet they don't "deserve" such a salary.
I do feel that Adrian Rogers, based on his years of service (not the size of the ministry or amount of the budget)would have a larger salary than a pastor who only served a few years or changed churches every 3 -4 years. However, should SG get paid more than the pastor at FBC Dallas since the pastor at Dallas may have a smaller budget? If I were to replace someone with 40 years of service, I would not expect to start at a salary greater than theirs. I would expect to work up to that through set raises based on my track record and longevity.
Also, what if giving at BBC doubles, should SG now demand more money since "he" raised it and now has a $60 million dollar enterprise? That reasoning does not make sense to me. Pastors are supposedly "called" and trust God to provide their needs. If BBC gave most of their budget to the poor and orphans and widows and missions, SG could not take such a huge salary. Also, if there were not such a large compensation package, do you think he would have said he was being "called" to Bellevue. Are preachers still "called", or is it now all about business?
Whatever your opinion or mine, as long as the gullible sheep keep giving millions upon millions, the buildings will just keep getting bigger, the acreage larger, the pastor's salaries larger.
Mo-scratch (won't ask what that means): I agree with what you are saying. Unfortunately, it IS all about money and "business" to the mega-church pastors as much as they deny it. These mega-church pastors not only earn huge salaries (which is kept top-secret from the membership), but they then tend to use their position and power to generate supplemental income above and beyond what they make in salary! The book deals that take away from time in the pulpit, exchanging pulpits with their friends and associates so they can get supplemental "preaching pay" from each other's congregations, putting their picture and using the church name to endorse certain products on commercial web sites....it all just stinks - I don't care how much they give of this money back to the Lord's work(I doubt its 100%), its "fleecing the sheep". I just wonder where its going to lead; where is the accountability? I used to differentiate between the "televangelists" and "mainstream denominational pastors" - I used to think of there being a wide gap between them, but now I can see that the integrity gap is now beginning to narrow between the Benny Hinn's of the world and the mega-church pastors. If those of us in the church are beginning to see it, I imagine those in the world have already seen it for a while.
FriendinJax,
Are you Jacksonville or Jackson? Just wondering.
Appreciate your post.
Mom4: I live in Jacksonville, Florida.
How can I gain access to the member only site? Thanks
friendinjax - I think you have it pretty much figured out. Where did you glean all that insight? You mention some specific examples, so no one should accuse you of making allegations you can't back up. I would add the "Holy Land" trips these guys make every year and "invite" us to go with them. In addition to them and their wives traveling for free, they actually get paid cash money on every "sheep" that signs up to go. Now I know why some pastors have been to the "holy" land so many times. I just feel like I have been blind for so long. I miss the days when you could take the pastor out to lunch and buy dinner for him and his family because you knew that would be a blessing to him. I know that is still the norm and these mega-church CEO's are the main ones doing the fleecing, so I will look for someplace else to send my money. Which if everyone else at BBC did that, you would not have to worry about SG resigning, he would run from there as fast as he and DG could explaining that God was calling them somewhere else where the salary was better.
(By the way, my father's name was Maurice, "Mo" for short. "Scratch" is what I have to do to "scratch out a living.")
FriendinJax,
Your words were words of wisdom. I've been a Southern Baptist for many years and I've seen this speaking tour within the convention explode. While earning huge salary packages with the larger churches, these men are automatically considered the best speakers because of their position. As these men travel and speak outside their own churches, they are earning in some cases tremendous amounts of compensation over and above what their home church is providing. This practice is prevalent inside the SBC and it creates a good-ole-boy network of money laundering inside the church as the preaching circuit grows. The mega-churches are paying huge salaries and then these pastors are traveling away from the pulpit earning money at other churches. While they are gone, the home church has to pay for a guest speaker and the traveling preacher gets paid extra money for preaching. If you listen to some of these guys preach on the circuit, they tell the host church each time, their pastor is the best in the country.
I wonder how many pastors would feel led to travel and speak around the country if there wasn't any compensation other than travel expenses?
I hope the SBC will address this issue and the issue of church government at this year's convention. Our SBC is in far greater danger today than we've been in for many years. This critical time requires that churches all across the convention put a stop to the commercialization of pastoring and worshiping.
Hisbowl - appreciate your comments...I'm asking this: where is the accountability? To whom are the SGs and other megachurch pastors accountable (in human terms)? Its not the deacons for sure; they are used by the pastor to squelch any "bahhing" from the sheep as they are being fleeced. How are most of these mega churches governed internally that would ever allow the church to legitimately call into question the antics of their pastors? Some of the things I see I don't think most deacons could bring themselves to rationally analyze to make a judgement on about the pastor.
His Bowl - how do we get the convention to address this? I agree something has to be done but these mega-church pastors all protect each other.
How about this...
Suppose the pastor were paid according to the average income of the flock? For example, assume
Church budget (=total giving) $30,000,000
BF Attendance (the "regulars") 7,777
Family size (Mom, Dad 2.5 kids) 4.5
Number of families 1,728
Average giving per family $17,359
Times 10 (assume tithing) $173,590
That's fair (remember, "average" not "median"). You could even include bonuses for things like preaching on Wed nights ($500) or officiating at men's breafasts ($100 plus all you can eat) or extra holiday pay ($1,000 for Christmas and Easter, $500 for 4th of July, Memorial Day and Labor Day). I'm sure there are other compensable tasks.
That would bring the total to $203, 590.
Then just to make sure, why not double it?
TS
(Personnel Committee take note)
Bellevuefriend wrote: "I believe Dr. Gaines would prefer peace to the luxury and opulence you criticize."
He can certainly find peace by being transparent and following scripture. The peace that comes with following the commands and precepts of scripture.
"I am wondering did you spend 4 years in College, do you have a Master's degree....did you go beyond that and earn a Doctorate, which took an additional 5-7 years?"
Is that really an arguement for him making 400,000 year? Are we using worldly arguements now for the church structure? Did you learn this in seminary?
My pastor has a doctorate and makes 60,000 year. All the salaries are public information down to the organist.
One thing I want to add, $400,000 year in Memphis is like making 1 million in Chicago. We have all heard about the very high cost of living in Memphis. (sigh)
"Please understand, I am not defending Dr. Gaines, nor his leadership decisions. I have called for integrity among your leadership from the beginning of my arrival on this blog."
You are most definitly defending his extravagent salary.
"As a Pastor myself, and one who has paid the price academically, and who holds an earned Doctorate from one of our Seminaries, I am appalled that there is a mind-set that says a Pastor can't have nice thing's!"
You can have 'nice' things at 60,000-100,000 year in Memphis. (Even with kids) What are nice things? A car that works. A house that is not falling down. Clothes without holes. 80.00 shoes. Let us define nice things.
I suggest you go pastor a church in Eastern Europe at least. I would suggest Africa, but not sure you could handle it judging by your post.
A workman deserves his wages. That is scritpural but in context it was written because many were NOT BEING PAID anything. Paul made tents so as not to be a burden. But now the opposite is expected. Pay ME big time because I am so worthy. The arrogance is astounding.
"Now hear me out...I am not a Mega Church Pastor have no desire to be....but the Senior Pastor of Bellevue, is in essence leading a company with 30 million in revenue. My point is this, the men called to serve at a Mega- Church, are entitled to a salary that is commensurate for the challenge before them."
This is what I was referring to before about 'pop theology'. So, the pastor should be paid in relation to the amount of tithe brought in, the membership rolls and staff size?
What about his compensation being a form of witness? You know, showing his love for the Lord more than his love of the world.
My former mega, which is a cesspool of pop theology, has twice the membership of BBC and paid its pastor of 40 years HALF of what Gaines makes.
"If I was at Bellevue, I would much prefer peace, to the so called trappings of Pastoring a mega-Church."
Sir, if you prefer peace and believe the things you have typed here, are you sure God called you to ministry? But, then, ministry has become a path to wealth for many these days.
"Now you might ask, how much $$$$ should a Pastor make, it depends on the demands of the position. And you have no idea what he (Dr. Gaines) gives back to the Church."
Uh, wait. Are you saying that we should pay them more so they can tithe more? Kind of defeats the purpose...
Let us also remember that part of the package is not only benefits for the whole family but retirement, paid travel, expenses, speaking engagements (is he keeping the fees?). Also, if he writes a book while at Bellevue does the church get the royalties or him? Does he get a housing allowance in addition to the tax break the IRS give him for housing? Special insurance? Book/resources allowance? The list goes on and on.
Let us not forget all the IRS loopholes pastors get.
"Did you know that Dr. Lee, routinely gave half his salary back to the Church, when he pastored Bellevue?"
What does this have to do with Gaines? RW REVERSE tithes as we all know because he proclaims it everytime he goes on TV. Violating Matthew 6, I might add.
"To clarify, I am not saying that Dr. Gaines is the right man for Bellevue, but who ever is there.....take in consideration, there, Experience, Education, and Responsibilities...before you rip there life style! "
According to this logic, Paul should have been paid very well for his work for the cause of Christ.
I would also add, that our Master had NO where to lay His head. No home. Nothing.
Folks, this idea of high pay has become such a problem in ministry I wrote an article about it here:
http://coffeetradernews.blogspot.com/2006/10/nouveau-riche_13.html
Why are you guys acting like you know Dr. Gaines' salary? Because, truthfully speaking, you don't.
Why are you guy acting like you know what Dr. Rogers' salary was? Because, truthfully speaking, you don't.
Salaries have never been made to the public, past or present. So quit pretending you know how much everyone is making because you don't know.
"Bepatient:One more time. What terminology would you have preferred to hear from the pulpit? There were children present."
Simple. You can never go wrong calling sin...sin. I promise you it will not hurt children to hear the word sin...as a matter of fact, it is the best thing we can do...say they sinned. You don't have to go any further. Just like you are NOT going to define the details of the light and fluffy, "moral failure", you are not going to define the details of sin.
It is sin and it is a very bad thing. It really is that simple.
FriendinJax,
Accountability is something that is absent inside a lot of churches today. This statement includes pastors and members. I think the success of the modern day church is measured by numbers. It's possible to have a church 1 mile wide but 1 inch deep. When this occurs, Truth is something that is not always recognized. When confronted with the truth, a lot of folks deny it or run from it because confronting it requires decisions to be made.
In our case, the pastor's office has surrounded himself with a few mostly wealthy, influential men who once again are looked at as church leaders because of their success in the "world". In a mega-church with a lot of money flowing through, there is a lot to hide and protect from the rank and file membership. This will always lead to trouble eventually inside the church.
I believe God is exposing scandal inside the SBC like we have never seen before. Pastors all over the convention have been exposed these past couple of years usually centering on money. Even inside our SBC, the North American Mission Board leader was found to have made serious errors in judgment. The report by the NAMB Board of Trustees (was available online) stated a lack of accountability on their oversight was the major cause of the problem.
Most every SBC pastor or leader I've ever known are great men. The problem is that without setting boundaries for these men, it sets them up to stumble. Money is a very powerful motivator for anyone. We need to be careful and loving to set the boundaries so these types of things don't happen.
truthsleuth - why not triple it just to be safe or quadruple it? Or why not go hourly? 2000 hours per year assuming a normal work week. But we know SG must work double the normal work week, so we'll credit him 4000 hours per year. Now, assume he "bills" his time (based on his earned doctorate) at $200 per hour. No wait, lets double that just to be safe, $400 per hour. That comes to $1.6 million per year. I like your logic. I bet his supporters at Bellevue would tell you he is worth every penny. After all, he is a really good preacher.
Forget the personnel committee taking note, sheep that are being fleeced take note. You need to dig deeper. After all, $1.6 million out of $30 million is a drop in the bucket for this great man of God.
I echo ace:
What is Dr. Gaines' salary, and how do you know?
Gossip is a sin, too...
Just a heads up for those who have XM Satellite.
Tomorrow on The Mike McConnell Show, they are going to discuss child abuse with Clergy. I wonder if Bellevue is going to be mentioned.
His show is on XM channel 165 between 11am and 2pm Central Time.
Mo-scratch said:
(By the way, my father's name was Maurice, "Mo" for short. "Scratch" is what I have to do to "scratch out a living."
You are going to laugh (I hope) when I tell you this, but I was certain that your name meant "more money" in reference to greed or other unseemly uses of finances.
Call me a dumbbell.
Dee
ace - we are not "pretending to know", we are making reasonable assumptions based on what we see and what is being done around the SBC, not just at BBC. Anyway, I don't "know" what Benny Hinn makes either, but I can make a good guess based on the home he lives in, the properties he owns, the car he drives, the clothes he wears, and on and on. We are naive enough to blindly give millions, but don't think we are so naive we don't know these mega-church pastors are making much more than baptist pastors at any time previously in history. They are taking advantage of the years of faithful service other men put in to build these mega-churches and now they follow them and demand huge salaries to manage them. If the numbers are not so outrageous, SG could humbly state his salary is "only" $100,000.00. I will be the first to offer my apologies and my support for him would skyrocket. Until then, it is safe to assume the total package is closer to $500,000.
I wonder, what is your interest in defending such a man as it relates to his salary? Do you enjoy being fleeced? And then, actually enjoy defending the one who fleeced you. If I ever pastor a church, I want YOU on the personnel committee.
Ace,
How do you know what we know?
Dee
If you wrote a book while working at another job, would you feel obligated to give your employer the royalties?
Why is it different?
2006 huldah - actually you nailed it! I didn't think anyone would catch the slang "scratch" or get it if I explained it. Example: "SG is getting paid a lot of scratch to preach at BBC." More money, or mo scratch, is what these new generation mega-church pastors are all about.
mo-scratch,
The biggest reason we are in the mess we're in is because the church is not supposed to be operating in such secrecy like we are today. Who ever heard of a church membership being told "it's none of your business what the pastor makes". If any pastor has this attitude, I'd say to him that he's in the wrong position. I don't believe a real pastor would have that attitude towards the sheep. Fleecing the sheep seems to be winked at more and more in the SBC. We need to start the change now.
Mo-scratch,
ace - we are not "pretending to know",
Yes you are.
we are making reasonable assumptions based on what we see and what is being done around the SBC, not just at BBC.
So you're making assumptions about his salary? From the dictionary... Assume: "to take for granted or without proof" - AKA, in other words, gossip.
You wrote a sorta long post and you could have saved both youself and me some time by saying "You're right, I don't know his salary. I'm just making stuff up" - because that's essentially what you just wrote but in more lengthy way.
Mo-scratch said--
"...actually, you nailed it!"
Whew! Right when I was thinking I was a dumbbell. I am so happy now.
Thanks!
Dee
2006Huldah,
How do you know what we know?
I don't. So what exactly do you know? And even more importantly, how do you know it?
testing the waters......
mo and 06hul,
Don't feed the trolls. Anytime a topic comes out that absolutely confronts BBC leadership where they have no logical response, an alarm goes off and the trolls are notified. Lovingly ignore them. I love these folks but don't have to respond to them. They like to get the truth off focus going down their path that leads to nowhere.
bepatient - you asked: If you wrote a book while working at another job, would you feel obligated to give your employer the royalties?
Why is it different?
Reply: yes, I would be morally, and in some cases, legally obligated to give the royalties to my employer. In the pastor's situation, if it interferes with his duties, (takes his well compensated time he could spend visiting the sick, visiting the lost, being with the members of the church as much as he could, and investing his life in the life of the church) OR if he uses ANY resources from the church, such as the office, computers, staff, paper, etc. That is why it is different.
HisBowl,
Anytime a topic comes out that absolutely confronts BBC leadership where they have no logical response, an alarm goes off and the trolls are notified.
Huh? What are you talking about? Nothing "came out." The pastor's salary has NEVER been published. People here are saying Gaines' salary is double from what Dr. Rogers made. I am simply asking where they got their information from.
It's not that hard to understand...really...
ace said...
"Salaries have never been made to the public, past or present. So quit pretending you know how much everyone is making because you don't know"
Braggarts brag, that is one way.
People are quick to tell if they feel that THEY have been slighted, that is another.
Mrs. C,
Okay, so you listed a way or two...now which one is the way that people here know Gaines' and Rogers' salaries?
Somebody with the info, I'm awaiting your response...
Welcome Isabel,
Come on in...the water's fine. Watch out for the sharks, though!
TS
ace...
DUH, I just told you!
Ace - I never said I knew his salary. I also don't pretend that I know. We all know that is top secret, of course, and I can't possibly know that. Still, you remind me of an O.J. Simpson juror who explained "despite the mountain of objective evidence against him, we don't KNOW if he did it. I mean, we were not there, we did not see him do it, so how can we KNOW?"
You also say making assumptions is the same as gossip. You might want to keep reading that dictionary.
What have I made up? Are you stating that YOU know SG's salary and that it is not in the hundreds of thousands of dollars? Are you assuming it is not that high. If so, are you gossiping and making things up?
How old are you really, Ace?
bowl- who are these trolls you are referring to? Just because people disagree doesn't make them trolls.
scratch-
Almost every single person who has written a book has done it while they had another job (everyone from Stephen King to Dr. Rogers). As long as it is done it their free time, they have every right to it. Yes, if you were spending 8 a day at your job and doing nothing else that would be different. But you have exactly ZERO proof that it is happening in the case of SG.
I assume you have a job- do you keep up with the minutes you spend talking on a personal call, reading this blog, letting your mind wander,etc. and pay them back for that?
Ace,
What do you think would be a fair salary?
As a nickname, please call me, "Joseph" instead of "in a year". I decided to make a change since "Bible-in-a-year" is just too long to type out, and I can't think of a good nick name out of "Bible-in-a-year."
As to why I chose "Joseph," I have added the following to my profile:
After reading about Joseph in the book of Genesis, I have decided to use "Joseph" as my nickname as Bible-in-a-year is too hard to type.
I just love the story of Joseph.
Of all the people so far in the Bible, Joseph just didn't mess up like the people before him (Adam and the Fall, Noah's abuse of his grandson, Abraham's problems, Jacob's deception, etc.)
At the end of Genesis 45 Joseph had a great reunion with his brothers.
I love this story!
Thank you,
Joseph (Bible-in-a-year)
bepatient: You make some good points, but most (not all) books written by pastors are written and studied and researched as part of their sermon preparation, which is part of their job paid for by the sheep. That is double dipping, plain and simple. If the church allows it and knows about it and they feel they want to allow the pastor to do it, that's fine I suppose. But in the megachurches the sheep don't know they are being fleeced in such a manner.
Mo-Scratch,
You also say making assumptions is the same as gossip. You might want to keep reading that dictionary.
Let's say you make an assumption and it's incorrect. - would that not be gossip? If not, what would you call it?
What have I made up?
Anybody who posts that Gaines' makes whatever figure is making up that number or is incorrectly posting it. If you have not done that, then I'm not talking to you.
Are you stating that YOU know SG's salary and that it is not in the hundreds of thousands of dollars?
When have I stated anything even remotely similar to that? I have not claimed to know his salary even once, unlike a lot of people here.
Are you assuming it is not that high.
No, not at all. I'm just thinking it's none of your business how much he makes...it's as simple as that.
How old are you really, Ace?
And that's none of your business too.
It is not about know how much he makes, or what that salary should be...
You are making assumptions you have no right to make. All Ace (hope you don't mind if I speak for you) and I are saying is that we don't know either and we are not willing to assume it is inappropriate.
You don't know the circumstances of his financial status so why make assumptions?
Mexico,
What do you think would be a fair salary?
Send me an email and I'll answer that one for you. acefrombbc@gmail.com
Mo-scratch,
I liked your thoughts on writing a book on company time for personal gain. Inside Morning Manna, Hope For Your Future is published as Steve Gaine's company. This new book being sold was written on Bellevue time.
The Office of the Pastor stated last year Steve Gaines was under a deadline to get his book completed by June 1. Staff verified that many church projects were put on hold with Steve so he could get his book done. Office of the Pastor said it was taking an incredible amount of time and effort on his part to get the book done. This is not hearsay. This is verified info. Once again, let the staff both former and current testify what they know about this in a public meeting. Steve Gaines himself told staff to not expect anything to be done on certain projects until after June 1 because he didn't have the time to meet.
AllOfGrace,
Correct me if I'm wrong...but didn't Mark D tell someone that it's common practice in the SBC for the pastor's salary to be a secret?...
I don't know what Mark told someone else.
Frankly, I don't know what the big deal is about the congregation knowing what the pastor is paid.
That's not even what we are discussing, really. The deal is this. The salary is not published and yet people come here pretend to know how much Gaines' and Rogers' make/made. - That's ridiculous.
bepatient,
Sorry to offend. But there's a lot of outrage here about this blog--first, why do you have to air the dirty laundry of the church to the rest of the world? Easy answer, because the Pastor and leadership used their power and influence to silence dissent; so the refugees formed their own forum outside the church. If the sycophants don't like it, they only have themselves to blame.
But of course here, Gaines minions my bark, patronize, belittle and nit-pick anyone as they see fit. So when the dispossessed get a little snippy or sarcastic, then you've given the bunch their Ah-ha moment. "See, you're doing the same thing you accuse Gaines of doing. Ngah!"
Are y'all not aware of the distinction between running a free blog and that of a mega-church that is "in essence...a company with 30 million in revenue." You collude behaviors with such an aire of piety.
Dr Gaines let a confessed pedophile continue his job as minister, a point not in dispute. It takes not one iota of scripture to state that such a person is not worthy to call himself a pastor, or even possessed of a moral compass.
But you're going to defend the hyperbole as protecting the children? Do you know what irony is?
Some very intriguing videos about Benny Hinn's extravagent lifestyle...
Is there anything that any of you actually DO like about Steve Gaines or don't find fault with his handling of?
I genuinely want to know.
bepatient,
"Is there anything that any of you actually DO like about Steve Gaines or don't find fault with his handling of?
I genuinely want to know."
Very good question. I'm very interested too.
all of grace, you said...
Frankly, I don't know what the big deal is about the congregation knowing what the pastor is paid. As I said, in every Baptist church I've ever been in that was the case.
There's only one reason the congregation can't be told. It would be so embarrasing to the world, it would be shameful.
Since the pastor is supposed to be full of integrity and honesty as well as loving towards ALL of his sheep, then the answer is probably not much.
Had he come into Bellevue with the right attitude, I don't think the people would be upset with him.
Since he came in quite the contrary, we don't see him as our pastor.
I do think he sings good and plays the guitar very well however.
HisBowl,
There's only one reason the congregation can't be told. It would be so embarrasing to the world, it would be shameful.
So was Dr. Rogers' salary embarrasing? How about Dr. Lee, Dr. Pollard, and etc?
Just curious...
Ace,
No, the salaries of these men were not embarrasing.
Well, the salaries of those men were not published when they were our pastor. So why was it not published then?
According to bowl's logic it's because it was embarrasing...
Trollcates said...
the Pastor and leadership used their power and influence to silence dissent
There are several deacons I can think of that take issue with SG, but because they are handling it differently, they are not being "forced out". So I don't buy that...
If the sycophants don't like it, they only have themselves to blame.
who exactly are the sycophants...?That is a harsh term perhaps you shouldn't label ALL the administration with it.
Gaines minions my bark, patronize, belittle and nit-pick anyone as they see fit.
I don't do any of these things, so why is that directed at me? And if I did you and you replied by getting "a little snippy or sarcastic" how is that Christian behavior?
or even possessed of a moral compass.
How do you know the hearts of other men? You don't get to decide who has a moral compass.
But you're going to defend the hyperbole as protecting the children? Do you know what irony is?
I know what irony is... do you know what hyperbole is?
Why do you want your tithe kept secret?
Ace,
You have mail.
allofgrace,
Don't let anyone make you feel like your question is not a good one.
The #1 reason is that the congregation would find out that Steve Gaines is being paid an amount of money that would be offensive to the vast majority of the congregation.
It's a great question we would all like answered.
Exposing this would lead to other questions that would expose more that would lead to more questions. In the longrun, it would be very healthy for Bellevue Baptist Church to be transparent.
HisBowl,
I'm still waiting for your explanation of previous pastors' salaries not being published....
As to what Steve Gaines really makes...this is becoming a serious problem. Just this one incident opened my eyes to how serious this 'rumor' is:
Two old men. Both in their 80's. Both former deacons and treasurers of their respective SBC churches. Neither one is on the internet and both would think a blog is a bloated hog. Both of them are connected to SBC circles for 60 years or more. I have never once mentioned Bellevue to either of them yet both believe Gaines makes 400,000 year. (I was stunned to hear this) And both are very hurt over what is happening to the SBC.
Gaines should make his salary and all his perks public. NO matter what the cost to his integrity.
bepatient: "If you wrote a book while working at another job, would you feel obligated to give your employer the royalties?
Why is it different? "
Actually, most organizations have policies about intellectual property and most keep the royalties! Unless, that is negotiated as part of the package. Even then, there are policies in place about 'when' you work on the book, no support staff working on the book, etc. I wrote many training programs that were copyrighted. I did not get royalties because it was considered the intellectual property of my employer who provided the opportunity, resources, etc. This was the case even if I wrote one on vacation!~
This is quite the norm.
It seemed like everyone on staff fancied themselves an author at my former mega and started writing books. It became such a problem, they instituted a policy that the church owned the copyright.
Bellevuefriend: "Assuming your a person of integrity, I want to ask you a question.
October was Pastor Appreciation Month, did you do anything for your Pastor?"
yes and no. I certainly do not respond to 'Hallmark' type appreciation months. However, I pray for him daily and send him e-mails of support stating how much I really appreciate his exposition of scripture!
Praying for your pastor is the best thing you can do. Perhaps prayer is the reason SG finds himself in this situation right now? Folks, that is a good thing, not a bad thing. If he recognizes that fact.
Proverbs 17:15
Ace,
The salaries of Pollard and Lee were known to the congregation but....
We are talking about Steve Gaines, not Adrian Rogers.
Why do you base right and wrong on men?
You yourself say Steve Gaines is no Dr. Rogers. I think everyone agrees with you.
Integrity starts with honesty and openess. Let's begin the healing process now. You may be surprised how far this goes regardless of the amount Steve Gaines makes.
BePatient to Trollcates...
I don't do any of these things, so why is that directed at me? And if I did you and you replied by getting "a little snippy or sarcastic" how is that Christian behavior?
Trollcates is not bound by Christian behavior...
Bepatient said...
Why do you want your tithe kept secret?
Giving involves my worship of God, and as He tells us in Matthew 6:3-4
"...But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret."
(Now, don't come back and tell me that giving to Bellevue isn't giving to the needy. If it isn't, it ought to be...:-)
TS
ilovebbc,
It's called honesty and integrity or a lack of it. The pulpit is not something to take lightly. The church is supposed to be different than the world.
I don't ever remember Dr. Rogers "ticking" people off like Steve Gaines admitted he did.
I don't ever remember Dr. Rogers trespassing into neighborhoods, etc.
Lindon said...
Folks, this idea of high pay has become such a problem in ministry I wrote an article about it here:
http://coffeetradernews.blogspot.com/2006/10/nouveau-riche_13.html
2:56 PM, January 15, 2007
reply: Thanks for the article, Lindon. Article here.
I've been reading it plus the links included for the past hour and one-half. The info you provided certainly opened my eyes and confirmed many of my suspicions even more!!
Where are the ministries that serve the orphans and the widows?
Thank you again for this...I always enjoy reading your comments.
Yes, I know what hyperbole is (in this case, embroidered language meant to avoid calling something what it is) and "moral failure' is an example. So you say that this expression, rather than a watering down of the offense likely authored by lawyers, is for the children's sake at the service. In what other terms has the church leadership and legal team signified this matter in other contexts, i.e. in those for the consumption of adults?
Yes, society judges the hearts of men {and women) all the time, that's why people go to jail and are executed. Generally, such a determination is made based on proven actions, which if your going to cut and paste--begin here:
"Dr Gaines let a confessed pedophile continue his job as minister, a point not in dispute. It takes not one iota of scripture to state that such a person is not worthy to call himself a pastor, or even possessed of a moral compass."
If the predicate of that paragraph is true, then the conclusion stands. But you cut and pasted that passage right out of your response, eh?
A sycophant is a sniveler, a yes-man, and I didn't say you all fit the designation. But let me turn it back around--if Gaines knowingly let a confessed pedophile carry on as a minister and kept the matter a secret, is he worthy to be pastor, or considered moral? Please take the opportunity to explain your stand.
Publicly held companies - corporations with stock issues - disclose the salary and perks of CEO's. The presumption should be that a church which is supported by the tithes and offerings of people of faith would fully disclose compensation for the senior pastor. I could guess the primary reason for not disclosing is that the average member would be shocked, even offended, to know it. (Add to that the implication to the outside world that it's all about money.) If not, publish it for the world to see. Seems rather simple to me.
Ilovebbc,
Great post...thanks.
Trump,
The salaries of Pollard and Lee were known to the congregation but....
We are talking about Steve Gaines, not Adrian Rogers.
No, not really. People are comparing Rogers' salaries with Gaines'...so we are talking about both.
Why do you base right and wrong on men?
What does this have to do with anything? I don't. Why do you put words in my mouth?
You yourself say Steve Gaines is no Dr. Rogers. I think everyone agrees with you.
I'm not denying that that's true, but when did I say that? Again, please quit putting words in my mouth.
Are you guys and ladies sure Bellevue is a baptist church? I am in my 70's and have been a member of a number of SBC baptist churches in my time.( have beena deacon since 1964. not bragging, but have been around the block a time or two.)
Churches (1stBaptist this, 1st Baptist that, etc) I have been in do the following:
Deacons are nominated and elected by the membership. Deacons rotate off for at least a year after serving three years.The chairman of deacons is elected for that year by the active deacons. The chairman can not serve as chairman for two
years is a row.
A business meeting is held once each month on a Wed night for about 10-15 minutes unless there is something that takes longer. Then we have prayer meeting. A budget report, in printed form is given to everyone that wants a copy. This report gives the amount in each item, for the year,spent for the month, and year to date. It includes every thing from utilities,bus ministry, salaries for each employee,postage, etc
Large amounts of money were not kept by the church. Only enough to meet monthly expenses. The rest was given to missions of some type, the needy etc. I have never known a baptist church to have but a few thousand dollars spare at most.
In most churches there would be a cat fight if the pastors salary was not known.
I know each baptist church stands on it's own but I do not know of any with the administrative structure you say you have at bellevue.
Old man
aog.....
The only time I have seen it become private is when the level of compensation is a concern. And I don't mean on the low side.
old man,
I disagree with your blog name - it really should be Wise Man! :)
At first I thought your post was tongue in cheek, but I do believe your questions are real and valid. The issues at Bellevue have been from the beginning of Steve Gaines' tenure as you stated:
1. The congregation does not know for sure what the pastor's salary is
2. There has not been a business meeting attended by the church body in about 14 months. Any business has been imparted to the congregation from "on high" and we have not voted on anything. A Budget Report is provided, but we never get to vote on specific issues.
3. There are deacons and committee memebers that have served continuously for years on end.
Just thought you'd like to know your thoughts and concerns are valid and if anyone disagrees, they are just being naive.
Thanks!
Karen
Thanks old man. That has been my experience, too, in Baptist churches. Still is.
This is one reason I think we are seeing a push for elder led churches. With an elder led church, this information will never be made public. The reasonig is because we are to submit to the elders and their decisions. (Some of which have been VERY bad and unbiblical in my former mega.)
Any Bible scholars out there who can show that finances of the church should be secret? I would be interested in some scriptures on that account.
Just checking in. Wanted to see if anyone had checked out Dr. Cox's (FBC Daytona) documents I referenced in my Jan.15th, 12:16am & 12:32am posts. I would really like to hear what you all think about them. Thanks!
ilovebbc,
In regard to your post about why do we care so much about what Dr. Gaines is doing and we didn't care what Dr. Rogers did. My answer is:
Dr. Rogers earned it; Dr. Gaines expects it.
There's a difference.
karen
AS far as my comments to Trollcates... The guidelines for this blog state to behave in a respectful, Christian spirit. So he is bound by them in that capacity.
No one has answered my question about if they have anything nice to say about Steve Gaines.
As far as the salary goes, I don't know why it is kept a secret- I do know it is unfair to assume that it is because he makes "too much" money. (who amongst gets to decide that anyway?)
I know that salaries have been kept quiet for a long time at Bellevue- I also know that the reason so many smaller churches have well-known pastor salaries is not because they are being published but because of our old friend GOSSIP...
"All Ace (hope you don't mind if I speak for you) and I are saying is that we don't know either and we are not willing to assume it is inappropriate."
Ok, what was that term I used before?
My mom used to say of our pastor, Dr Glisson, "I don't know everything that man believes, but whatever it is, I believe it too."
Ah, memories.
i'll fly away, thanks for your kind words.
This is something that has concerned me for several years after seeing what I have seen in the mega community over the past 15 years. The world has been systematically brought into the chruch. We have no discernment. We just cannot see it anymore. We do not know scripture.
I think of my cousin who left for the mission field with one trunk. For 15 years, her possessions consisted of one trunk. She loved the Lord and died at an early age on the mission field. We are not all called to do this but she taught me so much about not loving the silly meaningless things of this world.
You know what I have noticed? More and more Christians are downsizing. Getting rid of so many 'things'.
Maybe most of you are more mature spiritually than I. Maybe most of you are more trusting than I. Having become aware of abuses of finances both in the public and private sector, I am only comfortable with full, detailed disclosure. Accounting is not accounting without that. Whether we like it or not, a function of the organized church is business. And it is not a privately held business.
Pardon me, but I seek to be measured and kind in my responses, but I have no qualms about the uses of sarcasm and wit, if not directed personally.
Some of the arguments y'all dish prompts a roll of the eyes from time to time.
One of Billy Graham’s last crusades was held in New Orleans. It might prove to be the crowning achievement of his ministry. The 87 year old evangelist shocked the 16,300 in attendance in the New Orleans Arena as he invited the packed house of evangelical Christians to join him on a one mile walk to the famous Bourbon Street. He said there is a great mountain which needs to be conquered. He said “I last preached in New Orleans in 1954 and I felt then there was some unfinished business to lead as many of you who would follow me to the lost souls on Bourbon Street. This is where we shall see the harvest.” Utilizing a mobility scooter Billy Graham made his way across the arena floor and through the opened doors leading toward the French Quarter. Nearly the entire capacity crowd joined him in the 20 minute walk to Bourbon Street while singing Amazing Grace. Upon entering Bourbon Street Billy Graham was soon recognized by the party goers. Within 30 minutes Bourbon Street was packed with Christians weeping and worshiping as people poured out their drinks and sought prayer from the Christians now reaching out to them. Two hours later, Billy Graham sat back down on his scooter and smiled. “For I am now ready to be offered as the time of my departure draws near.”
Hours later still hundreds of Christians remained on the street ministering to the many party goers eagerly waiting to receive prayer. Perhaps New Orleans and Bourbon Street will never again be the same. I so pray.
I am also praying that we the Bellevue posters would all come together as a group; Hundreds of us with our entire families. And, let us go to Bellevue Church at a designated service as a group. Let’s fill the isles, the altar, and everywhere possible on our knees – weeping – praying – crying out to our Lord, worshiping. Let’s invite those others attending to join us and welcome them with the love of our Lord as they join us on our knees. Sure it will be disruptive – but disruptive only with Christian love. Let’s all of us – no matter if we are for or against something or someone in our beloved Bellevue, it just does not matter, – get on our faces, get on our knees, weeping and asking our Lord to deliver us from all that has been happening to us. Like Billy Graham, let’s go to our Christian Brothers and Sisters and together on our knees seek the face of our Lord, Jesus Christ. It is time Bellevue Baptist Church to begin healing God is calling us let’s do it!! This is unfinished business and needs to be finished HIS way, the only way. We can all plan to meet in the parking lot at a certain time, in a certain place, on a certain Sunday. Will you and your family come ?
I'm there, dude!
Peace
NBBCOF said- 4545,
It's not about power to me or anyone else here. I think we just want to get to the bottom of some issues. If it was all about power, I would be publishing your name on here, but I won't for the sake of your own protection. I have given you the opportunity to express your concerns like everyone else here, but when it get's out of hand, I must take out the trash. It's that simple. Please don't give me reason tonight to do that. That goes for anyone on here. It's not power, but as the blogmaster, it's my job. You want to start your own blog and make your own rules, be my guest, but on this blog we will all be civil and respectful or I hit that little trash can under you name.
Thanks.
NBBCOF
REPLY: I will respect that and thanks!
Crushed said...
Just checking in. Wanted to see if anyone had checked out Dr. Cox's (FBC Daytona) documents I referenced in my Jan.15th, 12:16am & 12:32am posts. I would really like to hear what you all think about them. Thanks!
5:46 PM, January 15, 2007
Crushed,
I read the letter from the pastor and the letter that is being circulated. It sounds to me like the pastor has talked himself into believing,even though he does not admit it, that by following Rick Warren, that he is following God's plan. There is a big difference in the two. I would encourage you to see that your pastor set aside anything to do with the PDC movement and proceed to follow the New Testament church plan as described in the scriptures. There is absolutely nothing positive about bringing in the sins of the world to attract the worldly. We are to be the salt and the light in this world (which offends with the gospel and heals with the gospel). Pastor Cox is lukewarm in his faith and maturity. You would be wise to oust him if it is not too late.
All of us as the Body of Christ need to be more salt and light in this dark world, to read and study our own Bibles (not watch it on a screen), to sing holy praises to the Lord (if it does not glorify God, it is not Godly), to feed the hungry,to clothe the naked, to care for the elderly,to win the lost, to support missions and to do God's will as HE directs us. There are many more deeds that need to be done and they are going by the wayside as God's people battle the Warrenism that has infected the New Testament Church.
The best defense that comes to mind is the same that Jesus used and is found in the Scriptures He also used: "Get thee behind me Satan".
I have a question, and you guys can throw all the rocks at me you want.
With all our talk about spiritual wisdom, contextual study and application of Scripture, and sin in the camp, pray tell, why are we giving audience to the opinions of our church situation expressed by a Buddhist?
I understand the desire to see this gentleman return to the faith from which he has turned in an apostate manner, or to find it if he never had it -- but attempts to engage him in meaningful discussions regarding the condition of his soul have thus far all been met with his very craftily composed responses saying, in essence, "Thanks, but no thanks," and chiding us for our Christian intolerance.
Our Buddhist friend is a very talented writer and displays a certain charm and wit with his prose. But, I ask you, in the context of comments about 20-cent sermons, a 1-mile-wide/1-inch-deep church, PDL/PDC, donations to a liberal/apostate church, and sin in the camp, and in terms of any healing Almighty God plans to do within our fellowship, why are we listening to this gentleman at all? Are we so willing to give the philosophies of the world a foothold, and to borrow credence from outside observers of our "mess," that we allow such thoughts to come to bear on ours without serious reservations?
Just asking ...
(I haven't read much today, please forgive me.)
Trollcates said...
I really don't think recanting a conversion experience that didn't stick will encourage anyone, and that part of my life was so long ago anyway.
I have no regrets for that time, and I love and support my Christian brethren, because, intense spiritual abuse or not, the circumstances (in several contexts) of my life make me sympathetic to people at BBC.
It really feels as though I'm being vetted. In the absence of much give and take otherwise, I don't understand the priority here. Do my experiences as a survivor of childhood sexual abuse or other relevant sympathies not count for jack unless I'm a christian?
Because if that is the case, that reflects more poorly on the cloister than it does on me.
11:33 AM, January 15, 2007
Trollcates,
"...a conversion experience that...
...part of my life was so long ago anyway."
So you did in fact sincerely accept Christ earlier in your life.
You and I can talk about eternal security someday in Heaven. You've encouraged me greatly. I needed that. Thank you.
"Do my experiences as a survivor of childhood sexual abuse..."
Trollcates, this is serious. If you have any information pertaining to the currect BBC investigation I urge you to report it to David Brown, DCS, DA. You have mentioned having had close ties to BBC during the time span you keep refering to?
Thanks,
Joseph
bepatient,
I like the way Steve Gaines plays the guitar. I think he does a good impression of Johhny Cash.
ilovebbc,
It was admitted by the Communications Committee along with David Purdue that the pastor's salary was renegotiated after he accepted the call. They gave some reason about moving expenses, etc. which didn't make any sense to anyone. What does moving expenses have to do with salary. It is embarrasing that we didn't offer Steve Gaines enough to live on the first time.
There is a deliberate effort to keep the discourse on this blog civil and of a christian tone, which is appreciated and understandable.
But every now and then you have to check your 'objectivity' at the door and use some good old plain common sense. There is something wrong when a church, which is suppossed to be the epitome of honesty and transparency doesn't have the even the willingness to publish the salaries of those whose earnings come at the expense of the very church member's offerings they serve. For goodness sake, 99.9 % of secular jobs/salaries can be found out one way or another, but BBC's is kept under lock and key for 'some' sacred reason? The questions that All of Grace and others have asked are legitimate, yet many seem to think that they have irreverently rushed upon the 'ark' by asking. Why is it such such a big deal? Who cares if the previous pastors salaries weren't published? If they weren't, that was wrong also. Somebody knows...so what is it?
DEAR BELLEVUE MEMBERS WENT TO GERMANTOWN BAPTIST LAST NIGHT.FOLKS IT WAS A SPIRIT FILLED SERVICE.DR.MIKE SPRADLIN PREACHED A GREAT SERMON,NO SPIN MEISTERS NO GESTAPO GUARDS AT ENTRANCES,NO APPLAUSES,BROTHER JIM WHITMIRE (WHAT A BLESSING TO BE LED IN MUSIC BY HIM AGAIN!)NO PRAISE TEAM.IF GOD LEADS YOU PLEASE COME VISIT A SUNDAY SERVICE .SAW DAVID SMITH BOTH HE AND DR MIKE SPRADLIN WERE OPEN SMILING, GENUINE EVEN SAW MEN I USED TO PLAY FOOTBALL WITH IN HIGH SCHOOL,OTHER FOLKS FROM BELLEVUE WHO LIKE ME HAVE TO MAKE THAT DECISION TO CROSS THAT RIVER.JUST AN OPEN LETTER TO YOU BROTHERS AND SISTERS ABOUT THE BLESSING OF GETTING AWAY FROM ALL THE COVER UPS,DECEIT FROM LEADERSHIP AND BEING IN A GODLY SERVICE WHERE YOU FEEL LIKE YOU CAN WORSHIP GOD IN. ITS GREAT I FEEL AT PEACE THERE.I HAVE BEEN AT BELLEVUE FOR OVER 15 YEARS AND I SUGGEST YOU JUST VISIT GBC LIKE I DID THEN LET GOD LEAD YOU EITHER WAY.PEACE TOU YOU ALL.HE REIGNS.....!
Graceupongrace - thanks for your 3:59 pm post and the link to Benny Hinn's news stories about his opulent lifestyle and the gullible nature of those who send in all those millions. I can see every point being made in defense of SG by ACE and 4545 and others being also made in defense of Benny Hinn. There same responses would apply to Hinn also. This is sad and I am embarrassed and angry that I was once so naive and gullible to give to these empires when so many around me are in need. Please, everyone take the few minutes to watch those two videotape segments and see if your spirit does not bear witness that you, too, are a victim of this kind of leader, albeit on a smaller scale. Compared to Benny Hinn, SG is a pauper. But he is on his way unless some people wake up. Why not pray about what God would have you to do with your tithes and offerings...give to the poor, the orphans, the widows, the hungry, those that have been injured or are sick and can't work. I mean what would Jesus do if he had a $1000 to give. Would he give it to BBC for more buildings and to compensate the pastor better, or would he give it to the needy. If Jesus could get his hands on that $30 Million, my guess is he would use it much differently. I don't think Jesus would be impressed with SG's shoes or home when so many are crying out for Christian help. Shame on all of us who allow this to happen. Without our funds, it would be impossible.
An open letter from Ace to Jim Haywood
Without a doubt, most people here visit savingbellevue.com often. I know that site is not affiliated with this one, but site visitors here also go there on a regular basis. Because of that, many people here often praise Jim Haywood for his website and for "revealing the truth." People act like Jim is so great and all-knowing but I've learned about about Jim over the past few months and he is far from that. Instead, I have learned that he is a deceiver and liar. Below is an open letter to Mr. Haywood to show others exactly where his motives currently are. If anyone has comments on the letter, please feel free to send them to acefrombbc@gmail.com - Thank you.
An Open Letter To Jim Haywood:
Dear Jim,
I can't help but keep thinking about your website. Often I wonder what your purpose behind the site is. You claim in your website's mission statement your desire for the site is to "honor Jesus Christ." You also claim that it exists to "provide members of Bellevue Baptist Church of Memphis, Tennessee with a greater degree of visibility of the government of our church." After reading those two statements, I chuckled to myself because your site has not done either of those items, but quite the opposite. I have compiled a list of points to address with you from the past several months just to show you where your true intentions are or at least how they are coming across to many people.
The first point I'd like to address is the "popularity" of your website. You sure are enjoying it, aren't you? Fact: Who called Action News 5 to tell them about the site and issues surrounding Bellevue Baptist Church? Why...it was none other than you. Fact: Who contacted the Commercial Appeal and other media outlets? Why...it was none other than you. You have your little website, so why did you need to feel the need to contact the media? Oh wait, it's because you want the attention. That's exactly your problem. You are starved for attention. Not many people knew your name prior to the controversy you started. But now, you seem to be a household name for Bellevue members. Honesty - do you enjoy that attention? Of course you do, it's only natural...and that's where the bigger problem is. You can't "let go" of the attention. You feel like you are celebrity and everyone admires you....I can assure you, Jim, that is not the case. So, suggestion number one from me to you....lose the ego. It's not about you, Jim.
More proof that you are enjoying the attention: Recently after the news media reported some more information, your site got a lot of hits. So what do you do the next day? Post in big red letters the main page: "Over 10,000 hits Thursday." That showed to me, among many others, that your desire is to not show others the truth, but this is a publicity and attention thing for you. Think about it, Jim...that's pathetic. Just like your site counter. Why don't you post a little message on your website saying about 200,000 of those hits were from the same person because your counter wasn't tracking unique visitors when it first started off (and it still doesn't) and somebody exposed that on your site. Oh wait - that would make yourself look bad...and we wouldn't want that, would we?
Now, let’s shift the focus to the lies that have come from your website. I love it how you have all your 50 point font, color red headlines for your lies. You keep it up to destroy the church, yet once it’s proven wrong you remove it and act like you’re all about the truth. Do you not verify your information before you post it? Or just because you get something “juicy” it has to be posted immediately? You really don’t make much sense, Jim. What about the credit card charges that you claimed Gaines used for personal stuff? You were proven wrong, buddy. Have you ever apologized to anyone for the people you hurt by posting this rumor? What about the time when you posted someone’s name and then a statement saying, “He has chosen not to return our phone calls.” Maybe that person didn’t return your phone calls, because you never made any calls in the first place? Your website is deceiving, and YOU are a deceiver, Jim. I have you figured out, though, and soon others will realize that you are a liar. Oh, and what about that time when you posted that highly offensive picture of the Nazi salute and compared that to Gaines and the people of BBC??? How many people know of that?
Another point to talk about – how do you choose which of your emails you respond to? Because I have it from a number of people that when people criticize your site, you don’t reply. When people send you a question about yourself or site, you don’t reply. When people give you site suggestions, you don’t reply. But…wait a second. Somebody just sent you a juicy piece of gossip (a lie)…so what do you do? You reply and you post your headline within minutes before verifying anything. That’s unbelievable. Why do you do that? Oh wait, we already covered that…you’re attention starved.
Moving on… How do you think others would feel if they knew you were trying to make money off of the whole ordeal surrounding Bellevue right now? Do you think most people would agree or disagree that you should do that? Why don’t you make an announcement on your website linking to your other website in the making…you know, the one where you’re helping with the publishing of a book on how to avoid what’s going on? You better hurry up on that project….and for anyone else reading this, don’t forgot to pre-order your copy on how to avoid the purpose driven church from Mr. Haywood + friends for only $21 per book. If you order two books, you can save $2 and pay only $39!!! I can smell it now…cha-ching in your pocket, Jim….cha-ching….
There is so much else I could address but I’ll end with your latest incident regarding the camcorder and you’re told you’re not allowed to record the service. What makes you more special than FOX13 or News Channel 3? They aren’t allowed to record the service, so why should Jim Haywood? My point exactly, you shouldn’t. Anyways, you post on your site the account of your morning worship service. First of all, somebody decided to sit next to you…*gasp* say, it isn’t so! Do you own a whole section in the Bellevue sanctuary that only you’re allowed to sit in? You’re the victim, aren’t you, Jim? You poor thing.
You need to quit the website….but should you decide to keep it up, here is some advice for you. 1) Take spelling lessons….you have too many grammatically errors on your site. 2) Don’t take verses out of context….that only makes you look foolish. 3) Grow up.
That’s all,
Ace
MOM4-
Hmmmm...that is so not what I got from his documents. I thought he was saying he is purpose driven as Jesus was purpose driven- not "Warrenism". I understand both sides of this issue. Was curious why everyone believes what they believe- anti or pro. What sins of the world do you believe he is bringing into the church? I am not here to cause trouble. I honestly want to hear all sides. You referenced the New Testament plan for the church should be followed. Is that what we have been following? I think Dr.Cox brought up some good points on this. I have really struggled with this whole issue. I like the way I grew up at Bellevue.I liked the traditional music, dressing what I was told was appropriate, etc. I am comfortable with it. I do not like change. But, quite honestly, his documents have made me really examine my heart and dig deeper in the Word. He has challenged me. So, help me here. Where in the New Testament church model are hymnals, dress codes, organs & pianos? Did the church meet in homes as Dr. Cox says or did they meet in churches? By the way, if you re-read his document, as I have several times, he is not suggesting changing these things. He is simply saying those criticizing and using the excuse of "New Testament Model" should not because the church has not been "following New Testament Model" on such said things for years. Where is Sunday School in the New Testament model? Before everyone freaks out on me, I totally support Sunday school. Again, I am just wanting some biblical responses to Dr.Cox's article entitled "A Biblical & Practical Response to a Document Regarding Purpose Driven Church" located on the home page of First Baptist Daytona Beach's website. By the way, I do not attend FBC Daytona- so, no I can not oust him as suggested. I saw the link on Saving Bellevue with the article about FBC and researched further. In all fairness, I think there should be links to Dr.Cox's responses.
Do we really want to keep bringing up the way it was with Lee, Pollard and Rogers. When you talk about policy and procedures that were established at the start of their ministries, one must remember that was a different era.
ACE,
Remember, under Dr. Pollard he smoked cigars and their were ash trays in the Deacons meeting and all throughout the bulidings.
People during that era had no knowledge of the health risk.
Do we really want to do operate like we did in another era?
Please stop speaking about not knowning the salaries of our former Pastors.
The times have changed if you havent noticed. The outcry today is for transparency.
If you think not, just ask the good employees from Eron and even in our good ole' Tennessee State Senate!
MO-SCRATCH
AMEN!GOD IS EXPOSING THEM.JAMES3:3:16 FOR WHERE ENVYING AND STRIFE IS, THERE IS CONFUSION AND EVERY EVIL WORK.DO YOU SEE CONFUSION AT BELLEVUE OR ORDER?.WHAT IS SAID IN SECRET WILL BE SHOUTED ON THE ROOFTOPS.GODS WORD WILL NOT RETURN TO HIM VOID....
Hey FallethNtheDitch ... would you please turneth off your caps lock? Thanks!
Ace,
There you go again. Please state your source about Mr. Haywood's, Book Deal or delete your post.
If you will not, then you are doing the same as Mr. Haywood.
Ace, you've got mail. :)
MAYBEJUSTMAYBE I CHECKED WITH HARRY AT THE COMMUNCATIONS MEETINGS AND HE AND DAVID COOMBS SAID AS LONG AS I WAS NOT RUNNING FOR POLITICAL OFFICE I COULD KKEP MY CAPS LOCKS ON .......
ACE said...
Moving on… How do you think others would feel if they knew you were trying to make money off of the whole ordeal surrounding Bellevue right now? Do you think most people would agree or disagree that you should do that? Why don’t you make an announcement on your website linking to your other website in the making…you know, the one where you’re helping with the publishing of a book on how to avoid what’s going on? You better hurry up on that project….and for anyone else reading this, don’t forgot to pre-order your copy on how to avoid the purpose driven church from Mr. Haywood + friends for only $21 per book. If you order two books, you can save $2 and pay only $39!!! I can smell it now…cha-ching in your pocket, Jim….cha-ching….
___________________________________
Sorry ACE, but you blew it on this one. I personally know the gentleman that published the book that you are referring to. Yes, it has already been published for some time, and Jim Haywood does not receive ONE RED CENT from it. Yes, Jim Haywood is assisting the gentleman with his website as a favor, because the gentleman is inexperienced in building a website or using a computer for that matter.
ACE research the TRUTH before you accuse!!!!!!!!
Checkmate,
There you go again. Please state your source about Mr. Haywood's, Book Deal or delete your post.
I stand by that portion of my letter. Jim is helping (even if it's in the smallest way) with the publishing of a book concerning GBC and how it fought the purpose-driven church stage and how your church could too. My source is Jim Haywood himself, plus I've seen the website. Maybe you should go ask him about it. While your at it, you can probably pre-order your copy of the book.
If you will not, then you are doing the same as Mr. Haywood.
I have stated my source. If you want further information on this matter, please email me and I will give it to you.
Ace,
Sorry to repeat myself...but, why are you so angry?
Andrew
ACE,
Please list the site for me to see.
No e-mails, just be open and list here.
Ace - very poorly stated, poorly organized, very unconvincing and overall, an ugly letter to Jim. The fact that it was published here also shows poor judgment and is a clear indication you are not aware of the key issues in this entire situation. You could have mailed it to Jim privately, but you wanted attention yourself more. Anyway, Jim's web page and this blog were put up to try and counter the intimidation and lack of transparency by the leadership. The leadership held all the cards and thought they could quelch people's concerns based on their power. Obviously, they "blew it" when they tried to use those tactics instead of simply addressing these things up front. We are a forgiving people, and many of the points you and 4545 make would have probably been good enough IF the leadership had responded to the concerns in that manner initially. Instead, they quickly found out they could not control everything despite their influence and intimidation? What was it that made them realize this? Nothing more than Jim's website and this blog and the news coverage it ultimately brought. Not only did their efforts work at BBC, but it will be followed by others across the country. I would guess that many other pastors are learning from SG's and BBC's mistakes every day. My advice to those mega-churches would be if members have questions, don't threaten or intimidate them or accuse them of being used by Satan or being divisive. Simply respond to their questions and concerns in a respectful and professional and christ-like fashion. Believe it or not, I actually agree with you that nothing SG has done would amount to enough for him to step down IF he had not tried to be a bully first. Now, he has brought the fight on himself and who knows where it will all end.
At least Jim is adult enough to make his identity known before he weighs in. To add any credibility to your post, let us know who you are. Are you a 13 year-old who lacks wisdom, or a mother/father of children, or a professional, etc. Why should Jim care what a 9 year old thinks? So please, if you want to call Jim out, let him know who it is who is giving his opinion.
GBCer,
Sorry ACE, but you blew it on this one.
Unlike some people I have no problem admitting when I am wrong. If I am wrong, then I apologize. However, I believe that I'm not. Perhaps Jim can clear this up for us?
However, even if Jim isn't receiving profit from the deal, he is actively contributing to the project which is earning a profit which I don't think is right of him to do. Form your own opinion, I have stated mine.
2006 IN REVIEW
January
.>Jamie Parker begins his tenure as minister of music. Some choir members are unhappy when he informs them of coming changes; then suggests that if they don’t like the changes, they need to find another place to worship.
February-June
>Steve Gaines tells some staff members that he has had a dream about a man who often says ‘amen’ during the preaching service. He calls staff members repeatedly to make sure the man is silenced before he preaches again.
>Mark Dougharty confirms to Mark Sharpe that he was told about the dream.
>Steve Gaines denies that the dream happened. Some are troubled by Steve Gaines’s denial, because it is untruthful. BBC staff refuses to meet to resolve the issue.
>Bill Street, former college roommate of Steve Gaines, and son-in-law of John and Pat Caldwell, (of the selection committee) joins Bellevue staff.
>Ken Hatley joins the Bellevue staff from Gardendale FBC.
>Richard Emerson unsuccessfully tries to obtain a copy of Bellevue’s bylaws.
>Richard Emerson and Mark Sharpe meet with Steve Gaines and witnesses to discuss issues of concern to them.
i2 Memphis kickoff on April 20 begins Bellevue’s first contemporary worship service for 18-29 year olds.
July
>Bellevue activates a membership in the Willow Creek Association, a seeker sensitive organization.
August
>The savingbellevue website is launched
>Bellevue’s membership in the Willow Creek Association is cancelled after the membership is publicized on the savingbellevue website.
>Mark Sharpe questions Mark Dougharty about the one year salary bonus he was given after Dr. Rogers retired. The bonus would be vested immediately if Daugharty left Bellevue.
>An upcoming meeting at the former Bartlett Baptist Church is announced. The purpose of the meeting would be to discuss church issues that have not been addressed by the staff of Bellevue.
>Steve Gaines, Chuck Taylor, Mark Dougharty, and John Caldwell pay an unannounced visit to Mark Sharpe’s home and trespass into his gated community by climbing over a 41” tall fence.
>The informational meeting is held on August 11th.
September
Former West Jackson Baptist Church member contacts the savingbellevue website to expose the Holy Land Trip ticket pricing ruse. He signs an affidavit saying he has personal knowledge that Steve Gaines profited in the tens of thousands of dollars from tours on several occasions while he was pastor of Gardendale First Baptist Church.
>Steve Gaines makes derogatory remarks about members of Bellevue while preaching in Union City, TN.
>Chip Freeman resigns his position on the Finance Committee of Bellevue after confiding to Mark Sharpe that he is concerned about improper charges to Bellevue-issued tax free credit cards.
>Chip Freeman is reinstated as Chairman of the Finance Committee of BBC and denies that he knows Mark Sharpe.
>Informational meeting is held after the September 24th Sunday night service.
>Steve Gaines denies that he has ever used a church credit card for personal expenses – ever.
>Chuck Taylor, Harry Smith, and Chip Freemen assure the congregation that financial records for the church have been reviewed and that everything is in order.
>Steve Gaines denies that he is transitioning our church into a Purpose Driven model. He denies ever having read The Purpose Driven Life.
>Steve Gaines tells Darrell Nephew’s Bible Study class that his favorite passage from the book, The Purpose Driven Life, is “it is not about you”.
more to come
Andrew,
Sorry to repeat myself...but, why are you so angry?
Sorry to repeat myself....but I'm not angry.
ACE,
It's not a crime to help someone write a book, especially if he has knowledge.
People may benefit from such a book as well.
Checkmate,
Please list the site for me to see.
No e-mails, just be open and list here.
gbcsaved.com - it's still not fully up, but that's what they've got so far.
Mo-Scratch,
Ace - very poorly stated, poorly organized, very unconvincing and overall, an ugly letter to Jim.
Thank you for your opinion. It has been noted.
The fact that it was published here also shows poor judgment and is a clear indication you are not aware of the key issues in this entire situation
Thank you for your opinion again.
You could have mailed it to Jim privately, but you wanted attention yourself more.
I did do this, but I didn't receive a response. I was then forced to make it public... Hmmm... where does that argument sound familiar from?
To add any credibility to your post, let us know who you are.
Ain't gonna happen. My identity should mean absolutely nothing at all and shouldn't make a difference in anything I've posted.
Checkmate,
It's not a crime to help someone write a book, especially if he has knowledge.
No, it's not a crime, but it seems a little immoral to me that they are trying to make money off of the issue.
To whoever is writing the book- I hope you intend to turn over all profits to your employer, or to GBC for using them to make a profit.
Great point, BePatient...I would hope that's true, as well.
And if that's the case, I will retract my statement from earlier...
Jim Haywood is not making any money from that book. I know this for a fact. He simply cares about the church and the SBC and decided something had to be done, so he rolled up his sleeves and went to to work.
Jim Haywood is not perfect but he is a hero.
Ezekial,
If so, does anyone else remember in the first informational meeting that SG told us that he had not even read the book?
FYI, I never read that book, and yet I know that quote is in the book. Isn't it the very first sentence?
It's the only quote I know from the book so I guess it's my favorite quote too....
;)
To all bloggers talking about the salary and package etc. that
SG got.
I challege all of BBC to stop putting your money in the collection plate.
Let us see who was called by God to be a servant at BBC.
Let's see who all gets a calling to go some where else.
Food for thought,
In the precious name of Jesus
Ace,
You are spreading gossip,rumors and lies.I was the first to call channel 13 ,5,3 and 24. I know that I was the first because each contact that I spoke to, told me they did not know anything about the website, so I gave then the web address
I also spoke to a reporter at the CA( it was a Mr.Dowd ).And to Mike Flemming at WMC.
So ace you have done what you accuse so many on this blog of you have written a letter full of ,rumors,lies and was very mean spirited.
Do you ever gather facts before you hit the send button ,you gave NO PROOF of your allegations against MR. Haywood something YOU constantly demand from us in your post.
Ace your anger and immaturity is showing.
I have never heard about Derrell Nephew's class. September 24th Steve said he had never read any Rick Warren books. I don't believe that was true. How could a pastor who cares so much about growth not read Purpose Driven Church? Please!
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