This letter was written to the deacons by fellow deacon, Dr. Michael Pruett.
Several responses have been written, some of which are featured here.
1. "Concerned's" response.
2. Sister Pam Gremillion's response.
3. "Misdiagnosis"
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218 comments:
1 – 200 of 218 Newer› Newest»I have dear friends who work at BBC and I'm afraid they are just as blind as Dr. Pruitt. Amazing!
NASS, may I finish this here? I can move it if you like.
2006 IN REVIEW
continued
December
>Steve Gaines apologizes to the congregation of BBC for the way in which Jim Whitmire’s retirement was handled.
>Steve Gaines apologizes for offending the Bellevue congregation with the remarks he made to Gardendale FBC and to the congregation at Union City, TN.
>The Ad Hoc or Communications Committee is discontinued as crowds grow and questions become more uncomfortable. Few of the questions are answered.
>The Paul Williams child molestation scandal becomes public. Williams is placed on a paid leave of absence while a new committee investigates.
>A new “Personnel Committee” is formed for the internal investigation of the Paul Williams case.
>Police reports are filed concerning a rape that takes place on the BBC campus during the 2006 Singing Christmas Tree.
>The DCS confirms that it is investigating a case involving a child and a minister from Bellevue.
>The District Attorney Ken Rardin oversees another investigation of Bellevue minister Paul Williams.
>Dr. Michael Spradlin, president of MidAmerica Baptist Theological Seminary, calls for the resignation of Steve Gaines during a previously scheduled interview with James Down of the Commercial Appeal.
>Dr. Spradlin receives the support of James Dobson and others.
>David Purdue calls an emergency board meeting of the MABTS in an attempt to “deal with” the Spradlin issue.
>Career and Singles celebrate the New Year with a “Black and White Hollywood Night” party. The “Hollywood parties” originated at Rick Warren’s Saddleback Church in southern California.
I am curious. I saw the Gardendale youtube video where Gaines says things have to be changed at your church.
What things were so bad that had to be changed?
I wonder how Dr Pruitt's partners in his medical practice feel about his writing of this letter. They are Bellevue members as well. Do they feel the same? Will this impact their business?
As he so proudly told us, he IS a medical doctor, therefore he should know the law about reporting abuse. I know that there is no way I would ever want Dr Pruitt to attend me or my family if the man has so little discernment and wisdom to consider not reporting the prolonged sexual abuse of a child as "doing nothing wrong".
Regardless of the PW details and outcome we must each guard our own heart and children. Develop their self-worth and self-confidence. Listen to them...they're "talking" even when they're silent.
-----
FRONTLINE EXPLORES ONE FAMILY'S CONFRONTATION WITH CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE BY CATHOLIC CLERGY
FRONTLINE presents
HAND OF GOD
Tuesday, January 16, 2007, at 9 P.M. ET on PBS
www.pbs.org/frontline/handofgod
If you think you know the story of child abuse by Catholic priests, I encourage you to put that judgment aside until you have seen "Hand of God" this Tuesday night. The scandal has rocked the Church in this country and in many other places around the world. In the U.S. alone more than 10,000 children were reportedly abused. But it is a truism of reporting that such numbers, like the casualties in any disaster, can make eyes glaze over unless there is an identifiable individual story among the many. "Hand of God" tells just such a story.
10:05 PM, January 15, 2007
churchmouse-
Thank you for your detailed timeline and your accuracy!
As for 4545...well...let's just say he has other issues. He just can't seem to handle the truth.
Does anyone know if this Dr. Pruett is related to Catherine Pruett who used to be the director of the Children's Division at Bellevue?
Dee
Dr. Michael Pruett,
How about this one?
The blind can't see no matter how bright the light is. Ask God to open your eyes so you can see. Or perhaps your blindness is willful?
MOM4,
I have been a patient of one of Dr. Pruett's partners. NEVER again!
It reminds me of the Dixie Chicks. I first thought the problem was with the chubby lead singer. Turns out they all felt the same way she did. Just as I won't listen to the Dixie Chicks; I won't go to their clinic.
Christians reader I ask for you to pray right now for us.
1. That God's perfect will (as it is in Heaven) be done in each of our lives.
2. That we would each fulfill the Law in love for one another.
3. That each of us would surrender to the Holy Spirit and receive His peace, wisdom and patience.
Thank you. God sees and will reward your sincere prayer.
Blessings,
Andrew
Deacon Pruett said that “he (Steve Gaines) has done nothing wrong.” Goodness gracious. When I read that statement, I had to catch myself before I totally fell out of my chair.
Silly me, but I sure thought it was our Pastor who stood up behind the pulpit at Bellevue Baptist Church and issued apologies for some wrongdoings over the last 15 months or so for …fence climbing…treatment of Dr. Whitmire…remarks on the Gardendale video…remarks about BBC to Second Baptist Church in Union City, TN…mistakes of the mind, not of the heart…but I guess I could be wrong.
I do agree with Deacon Pruett on one question that he posed. He asked in the 3rd paragraph: “But, where is love in all of this?” That question, sir, is one that I would like an answer to from our Pastor. Where is the love for our beloved Bellevue? Where is the love for our congregation? Where is the love from our leadership? Where is the love from our pastor and leadership so that they want to tell the truth? Where is the love from our pastor and leadership so that they will live with integrity? Yes sir, where is the love?
MISDIAGNOSED
MISDIAGNOSED
Those letters are riveting, especially Sister P's. Lady, I'd walk through hell fire right beside you, and bring a cooler.
It's like a freaking coup.
Has deacon Pruett ever met with Mark Sharpe? I doubt it.
churchmouse said- Steve Gaines asks deacons to sign a loyalty pledge.
REPLY- 100% lie!
Chuck Taylor asked deacons to sign it with Steve Gaines encouragement.
Then they backed off because Steve and Chuck only got 85 signatures out of 180 active deacons.
Chuck Taylor did not put forth that pledge without Steve Gaines' approval. Don't be naive, Bellevue.
swtt said- Chuck Taylor asked deacons to sign it with Steve Gaines encouragement.
REPLY- 100% lie!
What happened to Chuck Taylor? Has anyone seen him lately? Also, what's happened to Harry Smith? Since the last CC meeting where he said his favorite saying "I don't know" over and over, I've not seen him.
swtt
4545 is fixing to tell you that's a lie.....
Are you sure 4545? Might is be 99.9% lie, or 45.45%? What's with the 4545 anyway?
Ah ha! You got somebody!
swtt
Oh man! He beat me to it!
i love my church- You need to stop posting things you know nothing about.
Do you think Dr. Pruett perhaps had a long night in the OR? What kind of Dr. is he anyway? Sometimes doctors don't get that much sleep. It's obvious something wasn't working when the letter was written.
I love my church said...
Chuck Taylor did not put forth that pledge without Steve Gaines' approval. Don't be naive, Bellevue.
Weeks ago I would have agreed with you. I am now seriously considering whether this is true or not. The more this sideshow unwinds, the more I am beginning to believe that Dr. Gaines is nothing more than a puppet for this group of power mongers.
Lie! Did I beat 4545? Darn dial up!
I love my church,
You are to be commended on your accuracy. God bless you and good night.
4545-
Please give us your version of the story involving the deacon’s loyalty pledge.
Thanks.
4545 said:
i love my church- You need to stop posting things you know nothing about.
Piglet says:
4545- You need to stop posting...
We have Steve Gaines on tape saying he supports loyalty pledges.
There were loyalty pledges required at Gardendale. It is now noted that Chuck Taylor did the "asking".
Thanks SWTT! 8^)
4545,
You have ZERO authority over me. Don't bother telling me what to do again.
You don't know what I know. I KNOW a lot I am not saying on this blog. I've already ensured the authorities know what I KNOW.
Backoff buddy before it gets ugly. You guys are fooling no one.
This has been gone over 1 billion times at least. A Deacon brought up the motion/idea for the "pledge". Dr. Gaines, nor Chuck Taylor had anything to do with it. It was not a "loyalty" pledge. The Deacons voted. Most of you know someone that is a Deacon. Try asking them.
aog wrote: Well there ain't a lot of love for Calvinists at BBC either LOL"
I hate to be a bore and we have had this conversation before at your blog, but it would help if we referred to it as Doctrines of Grace or Election. :o) ( I am trying to convert you! Forgive me in advance.)
gug wrote: "Also, I am not "dead set" against the "seeker-sensitive" movement and I am Reformed/Calvinist. I don't like a lot of things about it but I'm not one to paint with a broad brush."
Ok, this is like Jumbo Shrimp. It just does not work. :o) The only seeker is God and we best be friendly to Him! (Romans 3)
aog wrote:" .it's a worldview...anyhoo...i prefer "actual atonement"..an atonement that isn't effectual..isn't an atonement. jmo"
Very true. The sermons of Gaines that I have studied are definitely no where near election. Just the opposite. You won't find any pastors who believe in election preaching forgiveness without going into repentence and sanctification first. jmo
"New BBC Open Forum said...
Folks,
Ace has shown his true colors tonight, and I'd like to ask that in the future we all just ignore his comments. "
Good call. The letter to Haywood was totally unnecessary.
swtt wrote:
"MISDIAGNOSED"
Yes?
It was convenient that Steve got up and left the meeting just before Chuck reintroduced the loyalty oath. A man of average intelligence could see Steve knew what was coming.
i love my church
Boy! I'm glad you're on MY side..:o'
4545,
I am a deacon. Chuck Taylor sent an email out that I've read with my own eyes. Perhaps I'm seeing things now that aren't there. Can you make me an appointment in the morning to see Dr. Pruett? Perhaps he can make me see something different.
This has been gone over 1 billion times at least.
I strongly urge you to rush over to amazon.com. For $20 you can purchase an elementary grammar book.
Someone posted earlier about wanting to learn about church history. here is a great site:
http://www.reformedreader.org/
You will find many of the old Baptist confessions here. You may be surprised to see that until a short time ago, all Baptists believed in election. (Don't tell Ms. Billie, it may just do her in)
i love my church- If you know so much, how do you not know the facts on this very basic, very simple issue? Why are you waiting to bring forth all this grand info you have?
Bellevue is moving on.
astounded- Thank you for your response on the last thread. My understanding is that Dr. Cox's response was to "take on" the criticism he is receiving and what people in his congregation are thinking is purpose driven warrenism. So, if his response did not really touch on purpose driven, is it possible what people are seeing there is not warrenism in your experience? Or is this always a step towards it? Thanks for your input. I often see where everyone says purpose driven is bad but no one ever says why. This helps. Also, what is a calvanist exactly?
4545 said...
This has been gone over 1 billion times at least. A Deacon brought up the motion/idea for the "pledge". Dr. Gaines, nor Chuck Taylor had anything to do with it. It was not a "loyalty" pledge. The Deacons voted. Most of you know someone that is a Deacon. Try asking them.
11:32 PM, January 15, 2007
_______
4545-
You want us to think that you know the answers. Let’s hear your version. Who specifically brought it up? I believe you have just compromised your own integrity. Let’s hear you state the facts.
4545,
You post nothing of value on here. All you do is post contrary to what the guidelines are. Can you not learn from your argumentative brothers and sisters how to at least offer your version of things as they have happened?
NBBCOF,
Do I not recall you previously posting on here that those who use certain words such as "lies, hate" (more that I cannot recall) would be deleted by the blog administrator?
Dee
And 4545-
I truly don't think it "has been gone over 1 billion times at least." That's an aweful big number.
"Backoff buddy before it gets ugly."
Hey, looks like it already has. Maybe you guys should just chill a minute and cool off--honestly. We're all brothers and sisters in Christ here, sans me, of course--tehe.
4545--do you for once think your behavior persuades anyone?
i love my church- As I have said, it seems many of you on here cannot resist making things personal. You cannot resist the urge to attack. Your true colors show brightly.
facts_only_please wrote:
"I truly don't think it "has been gone over 1 billion times at least."
4545 was counting all the times he's used the terms "hate-filled" and "WOW."
4545-
Please give us the specific details and facts regarding the deacon's loyalty pledge. You imply that you know the facts, yet you have shared none. Please enlighten us.
trump,
If you would be so kind, I would appreciate the opportunity to communicate with you via e-mail.
...and "attack."
I am not going to name the person that brought it up on this blog. You can claim whatever you would like. As I have said, almost all the Deacons at
Bellevue were there. All you have to do is find one and ask them if you want to know the truth.
lindon,
"gug wrote: "Also, I am not "dead set" against the "seeker-sensitive" movement and I am Reformed/Calvinist. I don't like a lot of things about it but I'm not one to paint with a broad brush."
Ok, this is like Jumbo Shrimp. It just does not work. :o) The only seeker is God and we best be friendly to Him! (Romans 3)"
I agree, which is why I put "seeker-sensitive" in quotes.
Let me give you an example of why I don't "paint with a broad brush." I like for instance that the "seeker-sensitive" movement tries to be "all things to all people" (1 Cor 9) by having music that appeals to this generation. HOWEVER I think they are misguided in their efforts, because much of the new music just does not match up to the content of the old hymns. A better option is something that some churches are now pursuing - putting new music to old hymns.
See this site: Red Mountain Music. Check out particularly their philosophy page and why they choose to stay with hymns.
I also think that there are a few gems among the new songs that really have a hymn-like feel to them. I'm not opposed to new music; I think it was AOG who pointed out that all hymns were at one point "contemporary."
lindon,
"Very true. The sermons of Gaines that I have studied are definitely no where near election. Just the opposite. You won't find any pastors who believe in election preaching forgiveness without going into repentence and sanctification first. jmo"
I have interacted a bit with Dr. Gaines about Calvinism, you can e-mail me if you're interested.
crushed: Please spend some time studying PDL. It is one aspect of the Church Growth Movement.
Here is a great comprehensive tool that breaks PDL down chapter by chapter Biblically. You will need some time to go through it but it is worth it: http://www.cicministry.org/berean.php
copy the above address in your browser.
As to "Calvinism", I am going to leave that to allofgrace. :o)
All of you are doing everything you can to bash me and get off the real topic. The topic was that several of you have posted lies tonight about the "pledge".
4545 said
I am not going to name the person that brought it up on this blog. You can claim whatever you would like. As I have said, almost all the Deacons at
Bellevue were there. All you have to do is find one and ask them if you want to know the truth.
Piglet says:
I know one! I know one! NO...wait, he's at GBC now.....
4545,
Go ahead. Post your silly rant about rights. We know. We have no rights. We are hate-filled. We lie. We have no facts. yada yada yada
I've messed with you before. I really got you going when you were posting as hisservant. It just ate you up that I was in the church and admitted several of us were standing around posting and laughing at YOU! Your posts are laughable. You have no credibility.
You attack others and then go bonkers when you feel the heat. What rank hypocrisy! I'm embarrassed for Bellevue.
I show my colors every day. I'm flesh and blood. A heathen. A sinner. I'm also on the side of truth. The truth is gradually being rolled out. A lot more truth will present itself in the coming days. Some things have not been made public out of respect for others. It's all coming out. Just wait and see.
Well 4545,
Your true character is telegraphing to this end as well. Go to bed, christian warrior, and do more battle tomorrie.
Crushed
Speaking from very little knowledge of the FBC Daytona situation, I have no idea if they are actively adopting a PDC direction or not. I can only tell you what ultimately happens when a church fall into this crevass. When you attend your 6 week new member's class, you will be indoctrinated into the "requirements" of church membership. You will be told that giving is a requirement and, believe me, if you do not fill out the yearly pledge card, you will be contacted by your assigned "caring deacon". You will also be required to perform a service for the church. This could include ushering, running sound/video, etc. The required service is one service a month.
These are the warning signs that your church has reached PDC status.
Later I can fill you in from first -hand experience on how they ask you to leave the church.
Lindon,
I haven't forgotten you.. just busy...
I will email you back soon.
i love my church
Boy! I hope I know you! If I don't, I want to. :o'
...and "bash."
Okay, let's review that pledge and see where the "loyalty" lies.
The following letter was written by deacon chairman Chuck Taylor to the deacons:
Brothers,
At the conclusion of our Deacons meeting that followed the evening service, all who were present unanimously approved the following motion:
"The 2006 active Deacon Body of Bellevue Baptist Church met November 5th after the evening service and unanimously approved the following motion. We the active Deacon Body of Bellevue Baptist Church wish to convey to our Church family our affirmation of Dr. Steve Gaines as God’s appointed and God’s anointed Pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church. We commit ourselves before God and our Church family to serve with loyalty under his leadership and to free him up to do the work to which God has called him to do. We publicly demonstrate our loyalty to Pastor Gaines by signing our name to this motion and standing before the Church congregation in each of the morning worship services on November 19, 2006."
Over the next few days, each Vice Chairman will be calling the men in their group to go over the motion and answer any questions. The motion requires each Deacon to sign his name to the motion indicating his public approval of the motion, so please go to the Events Registration Center to sign it. If you have any reservations in signing this motion, please discuss it with your Vice Chairman. I want to reiterate that every Deacon that was present in the Deacons meeting following the service unanimously approved this motion, with the understanding they were to sign it and to stand before the congregation on November 19th. Our congregation needs to know where the Deacons stand during these challenging days.
Chuck
I would bet (if NASS were a betting sheep) that 4545's was one of the 85 signatures reportedly obtained.
i love my church- I've messed with you before. I really got you going when you were posting as hisservant. It just ate you up that I was in the church and admitted several of us were standing around posting and laughing at YOU! Your posts are laughable. You have no credibility.
REPLY- Yet another loving post from a Christian on this Christian blog.
Piglet,
I do not believe we know each other. I've revealed my indentity to one person on this blog and no one else.
As long as you have been a member of Bellevue, you know who I am.
i love my church,
E-mail me sometime, I would appreciate a conversation with someone well informed.
graceupongrace, you are referring mostly to music? That is one place I believe some reformed are too legalistic. I prefer old hymns because I grew up on them and they "usually" speak the gospel message in some way. Hymns such as One Day and Come Thou Fount just cannot be beat. But there are contemporary ones I really like, too. Except for that ones that could be sung in a nightclub because they never mention Jesus.
I checked out the site. I listened to one song. I like the fact that they sing Psalms. (Was that a redundancy?:o)
Things really have change since I left the church. This is God's work?
Nope, strictly business.
4545,
Please point me to your loving posts. Our church members have felt no love in months. You're going to cry over a blog post? Be a man!
Bye. Bash away
"Yet another loving post from a Christian on this Christian blog."
4545,
Jesus supposedly died on the cross for you, so you can get off there now.
aog: "sorry..the "C" word is just easier to say..I'm a doctrines of grace guy...or I'm a Canons of Dort guy..is just too much to type."
The "C" word! I am cracking up. And you are right, if you go around saying you are a 'Canons of Dort' guy, there could be all sorts of mis-interpretations!
Guess I'll have to live with the "C" word. (sigh)
"The "C" word! I am cracking up."
Oh... that "C" word.
4545-
Once again, you have proven that you know no facts.
If you know the details as you claim, then you would not dodge the opportunity to post some actual details. I have talked with numerous deacons regarding many issues, including the silly loyalty pledge and letter that Chuck Taylor sent to each deacon.
Much to CT’s dismay, the MAJORITY of the deacons refused to sign it. That still makes me chuckle!
So, 4545, please, I implore you, please get your facts straight before you hurl insults to us.
I am praying for you.
I am sorry if I have offended anyone tonight. My apology excludes 4545. I make no apologies to a man who bullies and then cannot take it when someone hits him back. He picks up his marbles and runs home to mommy. He has harangued the blog with allegations of lies and hate. Most of those "lies" were true. Sometimes the facts presented here are slightly off. However, the blog version of events is surprisingly accurate considering the way you are having to obtain information. It's like Fort Knox now. You've now got a bunch of scared paranoid people running the church. They cannot figure a way out.
The church leaders started this war. It is all on them. You guys are standing up for what is right. Don't let them beat you down or discourage you. You are winning.
I will probably go back to lurking. Every now and then I have to respond to some of their garbage. Again, sorry if I offended anyone.
I have tried to stay away from 4545, Ace and some others while commenting here. But I have a suspicion that 4545 may be a teenager whose parent is a deacon or in leadership and has been eavesdropping on grown up conversations. I am basing this on the quality of arguements used.
Just some random thoughts and definitely my opinion only.
ILMC,
Dude, you're alright. Stand for what is virtue and accountability.
Ace should have said, "4545, please get off the computer and come upstairs and get to bed."
trollcates,
You're alright too. I believe lies are repugnant even when they don't directly concern you. Thank you for your concern. Sometime when it isn't so late I would be interested in your spiritual journey. I understand leaving a particular church or denomination. I have more difficulty switching faiths altogether. Some drift away and have no faith. You changed teams. That is rare.
Well, sir, constantly replying to comments by calling the posters liars might be construed as hate. But I'm not a christian, so what do I know?
I love my church said...
NBBCOF,
I apologize to you specifically for making your task more difficult tonight. Thank you for providing a forum for our thoughts and grievances.
trollcates,
It is evident where the hate posts are coming from. Christian or not, I think you see this for what it is.
If I would be welcome, I'd love to sit with the refuges one sunday, as an act of solidarity with you. You just have to promise to try and keep the witnessing to a minimum.
Hello brother Trollcates,
Just wanted to know if you read my 7:33 PM, January 15, 2007 post on the previous thread.
Thanks
Nobody should witness to Trollcates any more.
He's one of the elect.
Trollcates said...
If I would be welcome, I'd love to sit with the refuges one sunday, as an act of solidarity with you. You just have to promise to try and keep the witnessing to a minimum.
You would be more than welcome, but please understand, the the witnessing is a duty. ;)
BIAY
"He's one of the elect." Gee, I don't know what this means.
I'll go look for that post. As far as the witnessing, I don't wish to seem intolerant--it's your passion, after all. I know that.
Trollcates,
You are welcome in any church. If you introduce yourself as a non-Christian, people will witness to you. They should.
If you just go and are nice and don't wear any distinct clothing for Budhists (like those outfits the monks wear go bear foot, etc.) nobody will witness to you. (Ha! You could be there for years without getting witnessed to... but that's a different issue).
Will "bear foot" prints not leave distinctive marks on the carpet?
Better stay out of the pastor's office!
LOL!
Spelling is not one of my spiritual gifts.
Error noted and admitted.
Replace "bear foot" with "bare foot."
Ah yes, BIAY,
Please forgive me for not addressing that. I never meant to imply that my experiences as a victim of this kind of abuse occurred at BBC, only that I might I have something to bring to the table as a survivor.
Sorry about that. It's getting late and I am getting silly.....
Trollcates said...
Ah yes, BIAY,
Please forgive me for not addressing that. I never meant to imply that my experiences as a victim of this kind of abuse occurred at BBC, only that I might I have something to bring to the table as a survivor.
12:52 AM, January 16, 2007
Thank you.
I'll be re-starting my heart beat now...
I just got a vision of someone coming to church Sunday in Pooh Bear Slippers.
clear!
still, what is the "elect?" I couldn't be elected dog catcher.
Okay, let me ask if it invovled a church in any way.
The reason I ask is because I want to offer you a suggestion, but it depends on whether it was a church related situation.
Please forgive me if I am intruding. I'm only responding to your voluntary offer of information in this very public place.
Does anyone know if this Dr. Pruett is related to Catherine Pruett who used to be the director of the Children's Division at Bellevue?
Dee
P.S.
NASS, Thank you for the instructions on cut and paste. This was my first attempt and I ended up with 7 copies I had to delete. :[
Do the bad people sit together? Where do I find them (the back rows?) and what time?
I believe the point lies in the fact that you said that you accepted Jesus as your savior when you were younger. Eternal security of the believer teaches that once you are saved you cannot lose that salvation.
It could be that you are indeed covered by the blood and God has sent you on the current path you are following.
God works in mysterious ways.
Allofgrace,
Please bring brother Trollcates to your blog. He wants to know what "elect" means.
Trollcates,
When you master that subject matter, please explain it to me!
Trollcates,
Let me go ahead and give my suggestion. Don't answer my previous question for now. I don't need to know.
(see next post)
No, not a church person, but another kind of professional. I know you guy's tend to exceptionalize the christian context, but what we are talking about here is a power differential, where the vulnerable are taken advantage of by someone they trust. It is creepy beyond all words.
Trollcates,
Are you still awake?
Dee
Dee,
Ya
Good...
Stay with us.
Trollcates,
I recommend David Brown. He is a survivor. That's if you want to talk to someone.
What was done to you was evil. Hate the sin. Ask David to finish that thought.
Thanks
Trollcates,
You are a blessing. I am so very glad to have met you.
Please join in the Bible reading. We're going to read all the way through in one year. It just started January one. It can be done in just 15 minutes / day.
You don't even have to catch up, just join in tomorrow.
I'm going to sign off in a minute and get some sleep.
Peace
(offline)
(zzzzzz)
Again, my main purpose here is in the interest of not perpetuating circumstances that create more victims, i.e. keeping Williams on staff; two, when the powerful screw up, as Gaines has, they undermine their own leadership capacity.
I champion these as a survivor, but I require no ministering with regard to my specific incident--I've dealt with it. Thanks, however friends.
trollcates
Thanks for your input and for being firm about your intentions on this blog. I appreciate you joining in our fight for the children in the current situation at Bellevue. And thanks for repeating yourself in a loving, calm, considerate way. I think that is something we can all learn from your example. Blessings!
bereans wrote:
"I'd like to conduct a simple poll of the posters on this blog:
"Do you predict that PW will be allowed to remain on staff or will he be removed from staff?"
That can be arranged (a poll).
There is almost no possiblilty of Paul Williams remaining on staff. For Steve Gaines to allow him to remain after admitting to what he's done would be too harmful to the church and Steve Gaines.
More likely they are working on a deal to make all parties happy that will now prohibit any discussion of the settlement.
$30,000,000 in the bank and an insurance policy to boot will cover a lot of liability and buy a lot of silence. I hope this doesn't happen.
Good morning, is there anyone around? I have a question that I asked the other day and did not get a response to. I'd like to ask againg if anyone is around. Thanks.
Did I miss something that others heard from the pulpit or read in the media about PW? All I read and saw was very vague yet on here there is mention of child molestation and such. What am I missing? I am asking so that I may know the facts, not to stir up trouble. No disrespect to anyone. Thank you.
notonaside, the "past moral failure" is believed by the majority to involve a child, his son. I personally have no personal knowledge of this incident, so I can't say what did or what did not happen. DCS is doing an investigation, as well as BBC is conducting an internal investigation, neither have released their findings. Also the District Attorneys office is looking into these charges as well. Again I have neither spoken to DCS, the DA’s office nor the BBC Investigation leaders, but this (the investigations)seems to be common knowledge here on the blog.
Father in Heaven,
Help us all to stand for truth and love and trust you to provide the way. Please revive all of us with the Bible.
In Jesus's name,
AMEN.
Day 16: Genesis 47-50
American English translation ("NIV")
King James
Please pray a Great Commission prayer for today's nation of the day: Bangladesh
Thank you for your response Memphis. Yes I have heard of the investigations but I'm curious as to how some people on here know that this situation involves his son. I have stated this before, that if there are folks around that know more details then what is stated in the press and such, then doesn't that stand to reason that more people than SG, the person (or people) directly involved in the incident, and perhaps PW wife knew about this before SG brought it before the church? I'm not trying to get anyone in trouble and I know this is a delicate situation. My point is that although I am unhappy with SG at the moment, I don't see how certain people can say he needs to be prosecuted or whatever for with holding information from the authorities when it seems that there were others holding out as well.
notonaside, I do not know the answers to those questions. Sorry.
I believe that is what the internal investigations will hopefully find out. Who knew what and when?
Personally I have heard no statements from either the victim or the subject involved, so I do not know how it came out or who first said it, I am guessing that part will come from either the DCS report or the DA's office.
So how can we, church body, in good conscious ask or call for anyone to do anything until we know all the facts and truth?
Dear Trollcates: Please contact me. My email address and phone number are on my profile. I look forward to talking with you.
Fellow brothers and sisters: Much has been said on here lately and a lot of it very heated. Please do not be baited into arguing. Just let it go. We really do lose our witness here when we get sucked into the muck of arguments. And who wins when we do that? Not the person we start arguing with.
Once again please be in prayer.
David Brown,
SNAP coordinator for West Tennessee and Memphis
I believe that is what many people want...the Truth. Many believe there is a cover up going on, many believe that there are people trying to save their own jobs. Many believe that the internal report will not be accurate. I can't speak for the rest of the blog, but I agree we should wait to see what the different investigations reveal before acting. But there are alot of other issues that people are concerned about, and I do not believe that this is the only reason they believe action should be taken. I am probably not the best person to discuss this with since I do support that Gaines should not be fired and I am trying to word my post very carefully.
Again, thank you Memphis. As you can tell by my username, I am not currently Pro or Against. I DO seek to know the truth though. I try to see and believe the best in everyone, and I don't want to make judgements without all the facts. Something else that eats at me is when I hear people say that there are staff members that are afraid of loosing their job so they are either being silent or supporting situations that shouldn't be supported. This hurts me because in a sense that means that these staff members don't truly believe that God is in control and is capable of providing for them if they stand for the truth. I think of David and Goliath, David was by all physical means at a disadvantage, yet he faced the enemy and relied on God to take care of him and his people, which of course God did. I have friends that are staff members and I can't imagine that they would be afraid to stand for truth, when their entire calling is about serving the Lord, who is truth Himself.
Ace,
Why are you slandering Jim Haywood? You are easily exposed how wrong you were from last night's comments. Your comments are very serious especially as an employed Bellevue staffer. The Director of Communications should be more concerned with putting out the Truth on these matters.
I forgot, you were the author of the Communications Committee booklet that was mailed to all members. We know how much that lacked in truth.
It has been a while since I've posted here. Sadly it doesn't look like the tone has improved any in my absence. If anything it has gotten worse.
That aside I did want to address something from a factual stand point. 4545 is correct when he/she says that the pledge thing did not come from Chuck Taylor or Pastor Gaines.
The idea originated with a friend of mine. He and I were discussing ways we could encourage Pastor Gaines.
Also there was a desire there that we wanted to "stand and be counted" as people who supported our pastor.
The two of us discussed this motion before the deacons' meeting but were not 100% sure if we were going to make the motion.
At the meeting my friend decided he would indeed make the motion and tried to do so. After he did so, Chuck Taylor noted that my friend could not make the motion since he was not an active deacon. (This meeting was before the new year, and he was inactive at that time. He rotated back on as of 1/1/07.)
Another deacon who was active said, "I will be glad to make that motion," or words to that effect. It was discussed at length and passed, without objection I might add.
So when people are saying this is something that came from the pastor, or came from any deacon leadership, that is just not factual.
Anyone who has told you otherwise has told you (either intentionally or unintentionally) something that is not true. At best they have spread gossip, and at worst they have lied and slandered.
Either one is sin, and should be repented of.
I love my Lord and strive to glorify Him.
I love my church and work to serve her faithfully.
I love my pastor and support him joyfully.
Also I love all members of the body of Christ, including those reading this post now.
It is my prayer that we will all (myself included) heed the words of our Lord from the model prayer.
"And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.
For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions."
Derrick,
Thanks for your effort to get the details correct. Let it also be known that it was Chuck Taylor who had the deacon officers past and present to stand behind the pastor at an earlier meeting in a show of support. This official support of the pastor occurred long before you came along.
Nothing is allowed to occur without the blessings of Chuck Taylor and the rest of the deacon leadership. An official request was put out by Chuck Taylor and all deacons were to go by the ERC to sign it.
Also, it's interesting that deacons who were not active and not in favor of Steve Gaines were asked to leave the deacons meeting. How was your friend able to be in the meeting as an inactive deacon?
Derrick,
It's my understanding that the motion your deacon friend made was only a motion of support. It didn't involve a document with the wording that Chuck Taylor ended up writing for everyone to sign. In other words, Chuck Taylor took the deacon's motion, and carried it farther than what was presented to the deacons in the meeting, and then asked them to sign it without another vote on the actual wording.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Mr. Calcote, Asking a believer to sign a "pledge" or "loyalty' letter toward a man, any man, is unscriptural. James 5.
These sorts of things make me tremble when I think of how little we know scripture. This is one of the things the Nazi's did early on with the church. The church leaders signed a 'loyalty pledge' that included God but also their 'leadership', Adolf Hitler. Now, you and I know you were not thinking in those terms but the result is the same. You could be under judgement for this pledge which is the same as an Oath. There is no difference.
Let your yes be yes and your no be no.
BTW: Before you bring up oaths in court, let me say that we are not pledging to any 'man'. We are pledging to tell the truth before God. (Which should NEVER be necessary for a Christian)
Please consider my words to you in love and with trembling.
Greetings,
I have not posted many times. As I have stated before I have been concerned with the lack of TRUTH at BBC for well over a year now.
First, I would like to say thank you once again to David Brown and I am sooo glad to see a post from you. Unless I have just missed you I haven't seen a post from you in a long time and have missed hearing you.
Second, I have read on a post from a few days ago that PW was on the BBC campus during the time SG stated he would not be allowed on campus.
Third, I have heard PW has even been in his office at BBC during this time as well.
I hope and pray the authorities have been notified of this!!!
Has anyone else heard of this happening?
Thank you for this place to share as a remnant of brothers and sisters in Christ. It is a blessing to know we have a place to further His Kingdom and protect His sheep.
Even so Come LORD JESUS.
Trump,
I too find the inactive deacon part from Derrick to be interesting. Wasn't Mark Sharpe told at some point the he wasn't a deacon and was not able to address the deacons in a meeting because of this status? Yet it appears by Derrick's comment that inactive deacons still carry some weight, as long as an active deacon is willing to back him. Notice the "rotated back on" phrase as if this is a natuarl process and it's expected that deacons come back as active? Interesting, we were also told by Steve Tucker at a CC meeting that Mark Sharpe was no longer a deacon, yet I've heard from active deacons that inactive deacons are still looked at as deacons, they are just inactive at the time but usually are reinstated. So what's up with that?
Trump,
Deacons who were rotating back on in 2007 were invited to that meeting, which is why my friend was able to attend.
F.G.,
The signing of the motion was something that was decided there that evening if I remember correctly. And I think that suggestion came from my friend as well.
And let's not get of the point of my post here, that point being that those who have told you this motion came either from the pastor or from deacon leadership have either intentionally or unintentionally spread untruth.
It is not my intention to engage in debate on this blog as I do not think it is profitable for the cause of Christ.
Anyone wishing to have a substantive discussion, or with genuine questions they would like answered, please feel free to e.mail me at dcalcote@msn.com.
In His service and yours,
Derrick Calcote
notonaside,
I think it depends on what side of the fence you are on as to how you are looked at as a deacon now both active and inactive.
I know a fellow deacon who was questioned at the door as to his status of being active or innactive. I also know of a fellow deacon that was asked to leave.
Tomorrow starts the book of Exodus.
ezekiel,
Drop me an e.mail and we can set up a time to meet and discuss this. I'd be glad to buy your lunch.
In His service an yours,
Derrick Calcote
dcalcote@msn.com
Bible,
Are you reading straight through?
I am using a chronological plan. So far I've been through the first 42 chapters of Genesis and all of Job.
Whatever happened to your buddy, Choice?
Derric,
I know you haven't been a Deacon very long, but what is your opinion of Deacon Mike Pruett's letter?
Derrick,
Would you be transparent enough to tell me who nominated you for a deacon?
Was it a family member?
Who's Sunday School class are you in?
Thanks for being open.
Coach,
Since Derrick has not responded yet I can answer one of your questions. He attends Steve Tucker's class.
Coach,
Again, I prefer not to get into lots of conversation here. Feel free to e.mail me at any time and we can discuss things.
But let me answer one of your questions here. I was nominated by David Smith. He is a close friend of mine and he also happened to be my Sunday School teacher at the time.
My e.mail is dcalcote@msn.com.
Feel free to contact me any time if you have other questions.
Dear brother and sisters: I think there was mention of this earlier but I would like to remind all again.
Tonight at 8:00pm on WKNO (Channel 10) there is going to be aired a segement called "Hand of God". It details yet another victim and their story. I understand that his family is involved. It is important for all to understand the evil of this sin. When I hear this simply called a sin or a moral failure, I want to scream. We are all gulity of moral failures and sin. But this is also a criminal act. That is the difference! And we as victims bear those scars for life.
Please consider gathering your family and watching this story.
After is is over, discuss it with your family and that includes your children. Then join together in prayer with your family. It will be the best time you have spent with them in some time.
And I must say I find it more than a little disconcerting that there are people on this blog who apparently know me and who post anonymously about me.
ILMC and SWAW, I am referring to you specifically.
I ask you as your brother in Christ, and I'm presuming as a friend as well since you seem to know me, to do me the courtesy of e.mailing me at dcalcote@msn.com and letting me know who you are.
Thanks,
Derrick Calcote
Derrick,
Thanks for opening up. I know David Smith and he has nominated many men for Deacons.
I think our Deacon Body is filled with good men. But most men brought in according to who you know in leadership. FACT .
Coach said...
Derric,
I know you haven't been a Deacon very long, but what is your opinion of Deacon Mike Pruett's letter?
11:40 AM, January 16, 2007
Derrick,
Why will you not answer the above question?
You answered the other question?
Do you not want to take a stand omn the Mike Pruett letter?
You are a Deacon, please answer the question??
Dear Facts only please
Thank you for your post at 11.05 today.I to discern ther is no love coming from SG....Just wanted to share that with you.
I thought I read before the rule that prohibited other deacons and staff from nominating men to become a deacon. Does anyone know the rule?
westtnbarrister said...
Bible,
Are you reading straight through?
I am using a chronological plan. So far I've been through the first 42 chapters of Genesis and all of Job.
Whatever happened to your buddy, Choice?
11:28 AM, January 16, 2007
I've requested to be called Joseph. See my profile.
I am interested in what insights you can offer on Genesis. For now please hold off on discussion because of the long download times.
This is using BibleGateway's 365-day reading plan. It goes straight through.
Peace be with you.
Joseph
Derrick,
You've known me for a long time. I am not ready to reveal my identity to anyone. I can do more good for Bellevue by remaining anonymous. In the current climate trust is a difficult thing.
I love you and will pray for you. I know you are a good man who wants to do the right thing.
Everyone, please read the second half of this post.
WTB,
I would also be interested in your opinion of AslansOwn's take on Abraham's sex cover-up scandal. If you go in my profile, go to the blog for the study. Aslan's material is there.
I'd like to compare some of your posts on Abraham with his. You might find his ideas challenging.
But again, for now, no discussion until we can figure out what to do about these long download times.
Everyone,
It may be time to leave the blogosphere and move to a new format. I guess we will still call each other "bloggers" and we'll always have fond memories of this blogspot. We have about stretched the definition of a blog to the breaking point. Not too mention the capabilities of this particular set company's blog set up.
When the CA-poll was outgrown, blogs became the way to go. Now that we've outgrown blogs, it is time to move on.
WTB, as far as "my buddy" choice_is_yours, he's still here. Nothing happened to him. You just missed the announcement.
Thanks,
Joseph
Brother Deacon Calcote,
I'm just curious what you think of this.
It was an effort from one of the "pro-pulpit" folks and one of the "pro-pew" folks to actually make a list of issues for discussion.
As Churchill said, "Not the end, not even the beginning of the end, but maybe, just perhaps, the end of the beginning."
I copied their work onto the link above and hope that someone will carry their work forward.
Peace be with you,
Joseph*
*see profile.
To anyone who wishes to comment,
Dr/Deacon Pruett's letter indicated that Steve Gaines' health has been compromised due to the situation he's been put in. For those of you whom I know personally, I have shared this thought with you: I feel in my heart that God hastened the death of Dr. Rogers in order that he wouldn't know what a shambles Dr. Gaines has made of Bellevue. What do you think of the idea that God is making Dr. Gaines sick so he cannot further his personal cause? This is not slander, or hate speech or libel - these are my personal thoughts about something I've been thinking about for a long time. We already know Dr. Gaines has Myesthania Gravis (no points for spelling!) so why can't that be the reason he's feeling sick? I also know when I'm out of God's Will, I don't feel well. I wonder why Dr. Pruett blames the truthseekers and speakers from this blog and savingbellevue.com. I could make Dr. Gaines physically ill - if I sneezed on him, but I have no other sickness powers that I know of. As a medical doctor, Dr. Pruett should know that.
Karen
Joseph,
I hope I did not offend you. If so, I apologize. I did not know you wanted to be called Joseph. I never read profiles and for weeks I have merely skimmed the blog comments. It is too time consuming and depressing to read them all. So yes, I missed your announcement about Choice_is_yours.
I will read Aslan's comments on Abraham and weigh-in if I have something worthwhile to add.
Karen said:
To anyone who wishes to comment,
Dr/Deacon Pruett's letter indicated that Steve Gaines' health has been compromised due to the situation he's been put in. For those of you whom I know personally, I have shared this thought with you: I feel in my heart that God hastened the death of Dr. Rogers in order that he wouldn't know what a shambles Dr. Gaines has made of Bellevue. What do you think of the idea that God is making Dr. Gaines sick so he cannot further his personal cause? This is not slander, or hate speech or libel - these are my personal thoughts about something I've been thinking about for a long time. We already know Dr. Gaines has Myesthania Gravis (no points for spelling!) so why can't that be the reason he's feeling sick? I also know when I'm out of God's Will, I don't feel well. I wonder why Dr. Pruett blames the truthseekers and speakers from this blog and savingbellevue.com. I could make Dr. Gaines physically ill - if I sneezed on him, but I have no other sickness powers that I know of. As a medical doctor, Dr. Pruett should know that.
Piglet says:
I know if I were in Steve's position and abusing it like he has, I would certainly be fearful. There are too many people praying, on both sides of the issue, that God's will be done. Steve puts himself in danger if he gets in the way of that.
JMHO
Piglet,
If Steve ever says "If I ain't telling the truth, may God strike me dead", watch who ducks!
karen
2006Huldah said...
Personally, and this is just my opinion, I would like to see our blog administrator disallow ALL argumentative posting from "the other side". Yes, I know that sounds terrible, but so does all of this fighting.
When we don't have ace, 4545, memphis, and others on here, we enjoy the fellowship of other believers even better than being AT BBC--at least the way it is now. I have personally loved the biblical discussions, the scripture quotes, the good links to various other sites for sermons and info, the encouragement to each other to read through the Bible, the enlightenment from others out-of-state on similar matters, the beautiful letters from Sister Pam and others. It is all good, in my humble opinion.
These agitated rantings, back and forth tit for tat, accusatory tones, name calling ("liar and a deceiver"), certainly ARE NOT of the Lord but are purely the work of the devil--and I hate the devil.
Now, that's my suggestion. I doubt that it will be accepted, but, I, for one, am sick of the attacks, arguing, guessing, stirring up of strife, etc.. It's like a soap opera or a war when the "other side" tries to come on here and degrade this blog's status. If you want to carry on with the intruders, give 'em your email and do it in private. I don't like the "National Enquirer", and I don't like being a part of anything that even remotely reminds me of it. I know that praying fervently is hard work, but that really is what we need to be doing. We need to be writing letters, too, to the church staff and pastor asking for a business meeting.
These are just my old lady suggestions. You may think I'm a party pooper and maybe I am. After all, this is pretty draining; but what do the rest of you on here think about it?
Dee
Bereans,
Thank you for the answer about Pruett/Prewitt. This morning before I even read your post, I was thinking that she might have spelled her last name that way.
Of course, it's always good to know there are people like you who have also been at Bellevue long enough to know the answer.
Dee
Dee,
For the record, many of us from the "other side" feel the same way. We have wonderful fellowship away from this blog, but the point of this blog is to discuss the things that are happening at Bellevue. Please feel free to contact people by email or start a blog simply for fellowship.
I feel that we have as much right to be here as anyone else.
Thanks Derrick and very well said!!
When we go to the new format it should be very simple for Nass to set up three public areas:
1) pro-pew only
2) pro-pulpit only
3) any from group 1 or 2 may post.
When I say simple, I mean like about five minutes for her to click a few buttons.
Father in Heaven,
I pray that you will bless the health, the family bonds, and the financial situation of everyone who is or has ever been a member of Bellevue Baptist Church.
In Jesus's name I pray,
AMEN.
Pray for the church. Zephaniah 3
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2609149243719622443
I would be interested in your response to tonight's FRONTLINE program.
Andrew
My heart weeps as God watches our self distruction.
Truly, the faithful are few.
Father, help me be faithful and not bring you shame and sorrow. I will always need your strength, encouragement, grace and mercy.
My heart turns to sin so easily.
Without Christ and His rich red blood that He willingly spilled -we have no hope.
Are you truly a disciple of The Christ? Are you completely surrendered and in love with Jesus? Are you flirting with the world? Are you really following Christ?
I pray you are.
Matthew 7:23
20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
(NIV)
Ok AOG.
I want to thank you again for sharing your insights.
Tonight, I am saddened and embarrased by the reality of the so called "Bride" of Christ, the Church.
So many have left their first love and wandered down the street of the adulteress.
Prov 5:3-6
3 For the lips of an adulteress drip honey, and smoother than oil is her speech;
4 But in the end she is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a two-edged sword.
5 Her feet go down to death, her steps lay hold of Sheol.
6 She does not ponder the path of life; her ways are unstable, she does not know {it}
(NAS)
Andrew
The program tonight was verry informative but it left us hanging. It did say we can go to the web site for updates on the outcome..Was glad David Brown informed us of the program as this seems to be a terrible problem.
I agree with 2006.... I am tired of all the bickering back and forth. I like the blog because I can keep up with the news (not Gossip).....Piglet just keep telling it.....The mess with ace, Bepatient,4545 and others are not worth the read so I try to just skip over.....
I'm not good at writing but I read a lot and when Piglet gets started I just Pat my foot and say amen:)
lwood,
What are your thoughts as to why we see such a great division on fundamentals?
Anguish4theChurch,
Very good. It's nice to know that there are/were some who saw clearly and proclaimed it faithfully.
AOG,
This letter from Dr. Pruett amazes me.
Why do people on our congregation object to the application of following scripture?
1 Tim 3:1-9
1 It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires {to do.}
2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, uncontentious, free from the love of money.
4 {He must be} one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
5 {but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?);
6 {and} not a new convert, lest he become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.
7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside {the church,} so that he may not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Deacons likewise {must be} men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain,
9 {but} holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience.
Why is it that this kind of
AOG - you said,
...we're living in an age of the sensual..whatever feels good or appeals to self worth, self esteem, feels comfortable, is quick and easy, etc...is the order of the day...in America comfort and ease, and instant gratification are the most highly held values...not much room for fundamentals in all that...
Wouldn't that be an indication that the persons who practice such things are actually lost?
Matt 7:20-23
20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'
(NAS)
Rom 1:29-32
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; {they are} gossips,
30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
32 and, although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
(NAS)
Gal 5:19-21
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you just as I have forewarned you that those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
(NAS)
AOG,
You're right. Back to the failure to apply the very scripture we proclaim.
Titus 1:15-16
15 To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.
16 They profess to know God, but by {their} deeds they deny {Him} being detestable and disobedient, and worthless for any good deed.
(NAS)
AOG,
I hope we all don't confuse being chastised with natural consequences.
Aog, Andrew,
May I add something to your dialogue?
For me, it is a struggle between I have control and I surrender. My heart is constantly in this battle. Am I alone?
Dr. Rogers reminds us that it is about understanding the battle has already been won. We just need to trust what He has promissed.
AOG - I'm with you.
Telos,
I struggle with control too. And I'd be worried if I weren't worried about it.
AOG,
I agree intellectually, however, I forget to wait for Him.
The ways of the world are seductive. Pragmatism seems to take precedent over patience and prayer.
AOG, Andrew,
I have been listening to a lot of Dr Rogers sermons. The thing that strikes me is that He preaches from a relationship of Love - complemented by intellect.
I speak for myself, but I tend to forget the promises of God that Dr. Rogers was so gifted in reminding us. I think this is key. A relationship with a real God and with real promises.
Is it possible that many of us live vicariously through hearing the promise from a preacher rather than personally with the Spirit?
AOG
Again, I'm tracking with you and your comments are at the heart of my concern for many.
They've bought into the idea that a prayer took care of business.
They go to church, do the stuff and figure that their average (lukewarm, hidden and protected sin) lifestyle is going to get them a place on Glory Ave.
Danger Will Robinson Danger !
"he preaches", Dr. Rogeres, with lower case h
Telos,
No question about it.
Personal relationship...let that sink in...that's the result of receiving his free gift, that he purchased willingly by his "rich red blood".
Andrew,
Amen
Dr. Rogers preached the Blood Covenant. A wonderful sermon that can be found on LWF.ORG
allofgrace said...
most people look back for assurance of salvation...the Bible teaches no such thing.
Reply: Jesus does assure us if we believe?
Telos,
But if we simply look past our current willful sin to a prayer as a youth...is that saving faith?
AOG,
...but I believe assurance comes from submission to the Lordship of Christ.
submission = surrender
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