David Brown has requested that a story he received from a woman who for privacy purposes calls herself "Rachel" be featured in it's own topic heading. David introduces her to you here...
My dear brothers and sisters:
Much has been said in regards to the handling of this "moral failure." Most of you know I am critical of it.
I am attaching an email from a hurting family. I received it this morning. I do have permission as you will see to publish it. It will rip your heart out. They are not members of Bellevue as I understand, yet the actions, or rather inactions, of Dr. Gaines have inflicted hurt on them. Every parent should read this and take heed. We must do EVERYTHING we can possibly do to protect our children. Any less is to fail them. And that is not acceptable.
Once again if you SUSPECT abuse you report it, immediately! Not six months later. The subject line in Rachel's email to me was this: "Just another example of how the Pastor's delay has hurt."
David Brown
SNAP coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis
Related articles:
Voice to Stop Baptist Predators
Associated Baptist Press
Wendi Thomas in the Commercial Appeal
Stop Baptist Predators Blog
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
613 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 600 of 613 Newer› Newest»1st Samuel 8: ¶ Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,
5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.
9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.
10 And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king.
Proverbs 29:1-2
1 He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.
2 When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.
Judges 2:6 ¶ And when Joshua had let the people go, the children of Israel went every man unto his inheritance to possess the land.
7 And the people served the LORD all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that outlived Joshua, who had seen all the great works of the LORD, that he did for Israel.
8 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being an hundred and ten years old.
9 And they buried him in the border of his inheritance in Timnathheres, in the mount of Ephraim, on the north side of the hill Gaash.
10 And also all that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the LORD, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel.
11 And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim:
12 And they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods, of the gods of the people that were round about them, and bowed themselves unto them, and provoked the LORD to anger.
13 And they forsook the LORD, and served Baal and Ashtaroth.
Proverbs 24:30 ¶ I went by the field of the slothful, and by the vineyard of the man void of understanding;
31 And, lo, it was all grown over with thorns, and nettles had covered the face thereof, and the stone wall thereof was broken down.
32 Then I saw, and considered it well: I looked upon it, and received instruction.
33 Yet a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep:
34 So shall thy poverty come as one that travelleth; and thy want as an armed man.
What's with all the verses tonight? Are we posting some of our favorite passages? Because I don't see how they are related to anything? Anyways, here's one of my favorite.
John 15:9-14
"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.
10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.
12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.
13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
14 You are my friends if you do what I command.
Psalm 1:1 ¶ Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
4 ¶ The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.
Romans 13:1-3
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.
Psalm 80:17 Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.
18 So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, and we will call upon thy name.
19 Turn us again, O LORD God of hosts, cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.
Be Patient,
I find myself agreeing with you. We should most definitely obey the law of the land. That includes individuals as well as corporations and churches. Wouldn't you agree?
Ace said
'What's with all the verses tonight? Are we posting some of our favorite passages? Because I don't see how they are related to anything?'
1st Corinthians 2:6 ¶ Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
well, I am not going to agree to that unless you clarify what you mean by "individuals" and "corporations"- I am not sure what you are looking for here.
bepatient,
But churches should obey the law of the land?
be patient:
no agenda.
individuals: people
corporations: business
lies,
I am not sure if the Bible specifically mentions churches, but we are as a whole to submit to the authority of the government. If you are just trying to lure me into and argument about taxes, mandatory reporting laws, etc. you can just stop right here. The points of law-breaking have been argued to death here. My only point is that even if Steve Gaines murdered someone, WE are still called to behave in a certain way. And that doesn't mean we turn a blind eye, stick our heads in the sand, etc. It only means that we need to handle our actions in a Godly way, regardless of the actions of others.
13 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God. 2Therefore whoever resists authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you wish to have no fear of the authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive its approval; 4for it is God's servant for your good. But if you do what is wrong, you should be afraid, for the authoritya does not bear the sword in vain! It is the servant of God to execute wrath on the wrongdoer. 5Therefor one must be subject, not only because of wrath but also because of conscience. 6For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, busy with this very thing. 7Pay to all what is due them--taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.
bepatient,
no arguement about taxes, etc..don't know enough to argue with you about it.
I don't disagree with anything you said.
:)
we can continue this tomorrow, but I MUST go to bed now! I would prefer if we could do this over email, I think I see where you are going with this, and I will be happy to talk to you about. But either way! goodnight.
bepatient,
Although, I might add, that paying taxes IS my least favorite law that I obey!!!
But obey I do!!!!
Bepatient,
The following is a reflection of my personal perspective, opinion and beliefs. Enjoy.
Ok. Let me put it this way.
I am a member of the organization called Bellevue Baptist Church.
I do not have confidence in the leadership ability or integrity of my church's leadership. And generally speaking, based on my personal observations and firsthand testimony told to me by other observers, I don't trust the leadership (as defined by those we see making policy, decisions, setting agendas, and so on).
The church, it officers, deacons, pastors, employees and some members have demonstrated, in action and word, a very different set of core values and beliefs than what I believe scripture teaches.
Dr. Gaines has failed on numerous occasions to conduct himself or communicate appropriately with staff, congregation, and peers.
It seems there is quite a bit of division among the staff and deacons of Bellevue.
There is clearly an great deal of unrest amongst the membership and so far the church's ability to solve the problems have failed.
There are rumors, facts, guesses and all sorts of thoughts being passed about.
It has been made clear to me that the church leadership wants anyone who is in disagreement with the leadership to leave or be silent.
I personally believe that people fear for their jobs, no wait, I know people fear for their jobs at Bellevue. And they believe that if they stand on their convictions and express what is on their heart that they and their family will suffer for it.
I believe there is much at church that is unbiblical, unhealthy, oppressive and unloving.
Therefore, I must stand. I must not wander off. I must step forward and be an advocate for those who are scared, too old, too tired, and without hope.
I am no savior. I am nothing special. I am simply following the leading of God in my life. And I must obey Him. I want to obey Him.
May we love Him and each other as we sort out what He would have us do and prepare for what He alone will do.
Andrew
Jesus healed on the Sabbath.
Is it not ok to take reasonable action to protect and help those who are being hurt, misled, and still blind?
Andrew
imaresistor: I'm extremely familiar with FBC Jax, and its a bit irritating for you to throw around the term "purpose driven church" so loosely without knowing what you're talking about. Here are the cold-hard facts:
- Homer Lindsay, Jr was pastor from 1969 until his death in 2000. Anyone, anyone, who knew Homer Lindsay, Jr. or his dad know that he was an old-fashioned, preach the Word, sing out of the hymnals, "I-don't-care-who-I-offend-with-my-preaching-the-Word-and-preaching-against-sin" preacher and would be as far away from most of the "feel good", "seeker friendly" churches today. No bones about it.
- Jerry Vines was co-pastor with Homer from 1983 until Homer's death in 2000, then was the lone pastor until his retirement in 2005. Jerry Vines made very few changes in the church after Homer's death, and to say he was moving the church to Warrenism is absolutely ridiculous. Did he make some changes? Of course; we used some more "modern" songs, but he has always poked fun of the "7-Eleven" songs (the same 7 words sung 11 times in a row), and the preachers who sit on a stool and have a necklace and an open shirt. Now Vines did mention several times publically that he was friends with Warren, but FBC was not a PDC...plain and simple. To suggest Vines had moved FBC Jax to Warrenism is just absolutely ridiculous, and you know not of what you speak when you make such assertions.
- Mac Brunson came in April 2005 (voted in as pastor Feb 05, took about 2 months for him to come). He has made some changes that you would probably label as purpose driven...more modern songs, don't use the hymnals as much...Sunday nights the adult and youth choirs don't wear robes, more emphasis on missions (rightly so), but please hear me: FBC Jax is not a "Warrenism" church! The interview with the lady in Dallas, Texas, doesn't speak to what is going on in Jax. As I've said to you here in the blog and in private email, there are OTHER concerns with Mac Brunson at Jacksonville, but its NOT Warrenism. Your throwing around the words "they're a purpose driven church" is getting a bit annoying. And the issues with Steve Gaines that are being discussed here are likewise not about Warrenism and purpose driven churches. Its about right and wrong, about being transparent in the church regarding financial decisions, its about accountability, its about bullying and intimidating the membership when their authority is questioned, etc. This is NOT unique to purpose driven churches, but is a common problem in mega-churches whether they are conservative, liberal, PDC, or whatever label you want to apply.
From what I have been able to observe... FBC Jacksonville is about as far from a seeker sensitive/PDC as they come. FBC Jacksonville is a southern baptist church... with an independent baptist church spirit. I have noticed some changes, but from discussions with friends of mine at the church I have come to the conclusion that most of them were natural changes. Dr. Vines liked to lead the music, when I was at Pastors Conferences in the past I would watch Dr. Vines tell the music minister what to do. Dr. Mac however does not strike me as a musician. He doesn't even sit on the stage during the music on most of the broadcasts I have seen. Beyond that, what is FBC Jacksonville even being brought into this forum? I thought this was supposed to be about BBC? Does anyone know why PW confessed to SG to begin with?
becontagious: FBC Jax was brought up by me several times in the past month here at this blog as I encouraged people to email Mac Brunson to kindly ask him to reconsider having SG as a keynote speaker at the FBC Jax Pastors Conference in two weeks. See my post earlier in the thread, which placed Mac's decision in light of the Trinity Baptist Jacksonville scandal that our city has recently watched in the news. Everytime I bring this up, imaresistor starts bringing up "purpose driven churches" claiming FBC Jax is one, as though the FBC Jax members are too stupid to know what is going on at their own church and need her to tell them. She claims it was one before Mac Brunson, which would make Jerry Vines a PDC preacher, which as you know is utterly ridiculous. You mentioned Jerry Vines leading music...he never really "led" music, but Vines was more of a traditional pastor and he would be on the platform from the very beginning of the service; great visitors, make announcements to the church. Mac doesn't do any of that, and I wish he would: Jerry Vines connected to his visitors very well by greeting them, and he REALLY connected to his congregation by speaking from his heart giving announcements, commentary, and a joke about the music minister's tie before he would preach...but that's another story and off topic...
Piglet wrote: “I do think we are fortunate to have Gaines' first statement regarding PW on video tape.
It was a "moral Failure" with a FAMILY MEMBER that has not been resolved.
If he tries to say it was something different, at least (sic) we have a record of his statement to go back to and say "this doesn't wash".
A sad commentary (sp) on the state of our church...”
No what we have is a sad commentary on bloggers who make speculative assumptions then attack the very assumptions they make as if those assumption are now a fact open to debate. So, Piglet, are you already assuming that a cover-up will take place on Sunday evening? You are in the minority with this thought process. Why is it that there are a few (and yes it is a few, despite your self denials) that feel that the majority of our membership just doesn’t see the situation correctly? Could it be that the ‘majority’ of members still trust our leadership despite some failures? I know that the majority of people I speak with believe that while Steve Gaines could have made some better choices that his intentions were not as callous and calculated as you would make them out to be. He has admitted as much and asked for forgiveness.
For those of you who have raised children into adulthood, take a moment to think back. Did you not make some decisions that you regretted? I remember giving my sister advice on raising children while childless myself. Oh, I’d say, I wouldn’t do this and I would do that. Well, now with a child just reaching adulthood, I have certainly eaten my fair share of wrongly assumed advice. It is apparent that Bro. Steve wasn’t fully prepared to accept the role to follow in the steps of Dr. Rogers. While no one questioned the actions of Dr. Rogers, all of Bro. Steve’s actions fell under the harshest of lights. I am not saying that is wrong or unexpected. Bro. Steve just didn’t realize that every action would be magnified, scrutinized, and blogged about endlessly. He has made his share of mistakes but I don’t believe that his intentions were to harm or hurt the membership.
Finally and to change subjects, this business of recording services as to whether it is proper or improper to ask members not to record. Jim Barnwell is very much aware of the copyright laws in our country. Have any of you considered the fact that he is just doing his job to protect the copyrights of our services? One part of the law states that to maintain your rights to keep materials copyrighted the originator must aggressively work to protect it’s published works. If the church allowed people to record the services and be broadcast without the written permission of the church then we (the church) are in essence giving up our rights to maintain the copyright on this material. It was not an issue in the past in that no one was recording and re-broadcasting the materials in a public forum. But Jim Heywood was recording with the intentions of placing copyrighted materials in a public forum. This differs from you and I recording for our personal consumption at home. As the saying goes, one person ruins it for the rest.
As you may recall I blogged last Sunday as to what would be happening this week with regards to Paul Williams. I think that if you go back and re-read my blogging you will find that my statements proved to be correct. You can expect the truth as to the committee’s findings this Sunday evening as well. I would suggest to those of you who like to throw out assumptions and then attack the supposition to wait until after Sunday evening to speculate. I am sure that there will be much to discuss after the report is released.
"I know that the majority of people I speak with believe that while Steve Gaines could have made some better choices that his intentions were not as callous and calculated as you would make them out to be. He has admitted as much and asked for forgiveness."
Simply stunning. A pastor of 20something years totally ignores the precepts of scripture with a very serious sin by a 'minister' and you refer to it as 'choices'. Does he not know scritpure?
But, what a fluffy la la land we live in. I can ignore scripture, ask for forgiveness and all is well...and be a 'pastor' at the same time!
Nevermind, that a pastor, has shown a total lack of wisdom and sent a message to every abused child and adult in that church that that he is MORE concerned about the abuser than he is about them.
Of course, he will say 'words' to the affect that he does care about the victims on Sunday night and you will believe words over actions.
It worked for Bill Clinton for 8 years...why not Steve Gaines?
just my opinion wrote:
"Jim Barnwell is very much aware of the copyright laws in our country. Have any of you considered the fact that he is just doing his job to protect the copyrights of our services? One part of the law states that to maintain your rights to keep materials copyrighted the originator must aggressively work to protect it’s published works. If the church allowed people to record the services and be broadcast without the written permission of the church then we (the church) are in essence giving up our rights to maintain the copyright on this material. It was not an issue in the past in that no one was recording and re-broadcasting the materials in a public forum. But Jim Heywood was recording with the intentions of placing copyrighted materials in a public forum."
Then Mr. Barnwell is falling down on the job or must have just missed this and this.
New BBC Open Forum said...
just my opinion wrote:
Then Mr. Barnwell is falling down on the job or must have just missed this and this.
9:08 AM, January 27, 2007
***
Great point. If Mr Barnwell was truely interested in copyright, wouldn't he have demanded from you tube to pull these videos. Didn't BBC ask Gardendale to request the resignation video be pulled?
Again, as someone pointed out in an earlier post. I have never signed anything saying BBC can use mine or my families image or likeness (and what a likeness it is) in their advertising or TV. How can they get away with that? I guess whenever it is convenient...
NBBCOF...
Sorry about that...if this one doesn't work, maybe you will post it? I sent it to you.
http://www.christianpost.com/
article/20070127/25439_
SBC_Megachurch_Pastor_
Resigns_Over_Controversy.htm
I would love to see this story follow up now at Bellevue!!!
ima,
Try this.
Thanks NBBCOF...
This blog has been fascinating as people all around the SBC have not only stopped by to listen in to our issues here at Bellevue but they have also added their opinion on their specific problems as well. The diverse opinions and discussions have perhaps made all of us draw closer to the Lord and take a look in the mirror at ourselves for a spiritual checkup. For that I’m grateful.
The issues in the SBC are tremendous and diverse and are not all the same at each church. This blog however is really for our Beloved Bellevue to discuss the lack of accountability that will always lead to a lack of honesty, openness, transparency.
I’m reminded of the Church of Sardis found in Revelation 3. The people in Sardis were a wealthy people. They were also known as having a great reputation of being alive at one time but were dying spiritually. The people in Sardis were living on their reputation. The Lord told them to remember what they had been taught, and to obey it, and repent.
I’m afraid we’ve lived too long on our reputation at Bellevue. Somewhere we started to gradually loose interest in the church. Perhaps the mega church model leads the masses to eventually hand over the responsibilities to a few. A church that boasts 30,000 members should have more than just a small handful of men that control the direction and money of the church year after year. Praise the Lord for anyone’s desire to lead but praise the Lord for those who lead in humbleness, honesty, and self-control.
Since the masses have no real knowledge of anything going on behind closed doors, they come to expect a great product each time they walk in the doors. God’s Church should include all members finding their role in serving. Do we believe that God limits the wisdom over long periods of time to just a handful of men? Once men get a taste of control, they are very reluctant to let go. Do we encourage complacency by shutting people out?
Is having an interest in how the church is being operated sinful? I venture to say that not having an interest in the church decisions is sinful.
Transparency is a key element that should start immediately. If we love the Lord and love each other, we’ll trust each other. Leadership should have the trust of the congregation but the congregation should have the trust of the leadership. Once the leadership makes decisions, the congregation should be informed with 100% transparency. Like a good marriage, nothing is hidden and Truth is Love.
When leadership doesn’t trust the congregation, it’s because their decisions are wrong or they don’t have the faith that God is behind them. How many financial decisions in the past few years would be embarrassing to the church leadership if the congregation knew? If this isn’t a true statement, take the tape off the windows and let us look in. Perhaps the church leadership would be surprised that the congregation would accept their decisions.
Healing at Bellevue will only come when the pastor changes his philosophy of a closed door government. One of the great Baptist beliefs is that churches are autonomous. If the SBC had the power to make decisions for each SBC church without the knowledge of the individual churches, there would be an uprising inside the convention and rightfully so.
What could possibly be going on inside the church that can’t be shared with the congregation? Until we have transparency and honesty, this turmoil will not go away.
When leadership is not held accountable, disaster is inevitable as the decision making process becomes more self-centered.
I pray we repent as a church, turn from the ways of the past, and start a new day of honesty, openness, and trust in each other. The only way that’s going to happen is for Truth to be preeminent. I long for a day when all churches could be about the business of sharing the Gospel instead of being distracted with worldly issues that are self created.
I love you and pray all of us search Him today in everything we do and I pray that He continues to speak to us and convict us of our sins. In Jesus Name, Amen.
bbc refugee wrote: “Again, as someone pointed out in an earlier post. I have never signed anything saying BBC can use mine or my families image or likeness (and what a likeness it is) in their advertising or TV. How can they get away with that? I guess whenever it is convenient...”
If your image is used in advertising to promote Bellevue and call attention to Christ and that utilization is offensive to you, do the following. Write a letter to the church explaining that you do not want your image utilized in this effort and ask that the advertising be ceased. I think that you will find the church will work with you in that endeavor. Secondly, if your image appears as part of the audience in attendance at a worship service at Bellevue you will have little recourse other than staying away from the camera areas. It is a know fact that the worship services are filmed for the purpose of broadcast. A person can only make a claim of unrightfully utilization of images if those pictures are made without the person’s knowledge or the test of reasonable knowledge can be shown not to be present. I assume that any reasonable person who observes at least 6 cameras in this setting would know the potential for being filmed.
Prayer for worship services at Bellevue Baptist Church on 01/28/07:
Holy Father, we come to You this morning, the Creator of all, the Redeemer of all, the Ruler of All. We desire above all else that Your presence fill our hearts, that Your likeness be stamped indelibly on our being, and that Your wisdom and grace permeate our walk in this world in such a way that there is no mistaking Whose we are.
Father, we lift up the worship services at our beloved church tomorrow. We know we don't have to ask, "Please be with us," as You have promised that where two or three are gathered in Your name, You are always there in their midst; and You have also promised that You would never leave us or forsake us. Praise Your Name, Lord. We ask, instead, that you make us aware of Your presence and that we keep silent before Your holiness. We pray that we will be cognizant of Your inhabitation of our praises, and that the words of our mouths and the meditations of our hearts will be acceptable in Your sight, O Lord our Strength and our Redeemer.
Father, may Your Holy Word be proclaimed as we gather tomorrow to worship You. May we once again see You fulfill Your promise to never allow Your Word to return void. We pray that the lost will be saved. We pray that those of us who already know You will be drawn into a closer and deeper communion with You. Holy God, we pray that You will work in our hearts even now, prepare them, tenderize them, and ready them to receive that which You would have each of us to hear from You. Give us the desire to see Your Word made manifest in our hearts.
Father, may we approach all things with Your eyes, Your ears, and Your heart as we tune our own hearts to You. Show us Your ways, O Lord, and teach us Your paths and Your righteousness.
Help us to be open to that which You would have us to know and to do. Help us to be sensitive to others and to love them in Jesus' name. Help us to be forgiving and loving. Help us to love others as You have loved us.
Give us wisdom from You, dear Father, and help us make all decisions with the mind of Christ. Guard us from our own sinful thought processes and from any feelings that are rooted in human experience -- fix our eyes only on that which is of You and Your Kingdom.
To those who are watching us to see if we will conduct ourselves with contention or with love, O Lord, may we honor You by demonstrating ourselves to have love one for another. Help us to understand what that love means, and help us to define it not by the world's standards, but by Yours.
Father, may your Holy Spirit fall on us as a people. May we humble ourselves and seek Your face and Your face alone through confession and repentance. Cleanse us, Dear Lord, and make us as new wineskins.
"Revive us again, fill each heart with Thy love,
May each soul be rekindled with FIRE from above."
Restore to each of us, Lord, the JOY of our salvation.
Guide our pastor, Father. Illuminate his pathway with the light of truth and Your Holy Word. May each word from his lips tomorrow be a word of truth and may he honor You in all things. Please work even now in the lives of those who are closest to him.
Father, thank You for making possible this life we have in You. Thank You for our beloved Jesus, Whose sacrifice is everything to us. Thank You for Your redemption, Your presence, and Your mercy. Help us to remember that without You, we are lost, alone, and in utter darkness.
We love You, Father. Thank You for hearing our prayers today. We pray that others will know by word and deed that we truly desire to walk with You.
I'm going to go on the record stating that I don't necessarily agree with "ima's" sentiments. I've said from the beginning of all this that I am not calling for Dr. Gaines' resignation -- at least not yet.
I don't "hate" him as I and others have been accused of. In fact, I actually like him personally when I don't think about some of his words and actions. Much like the example of Bill Clinton, who on a personal level would probably be a hoot to hang out with but whose past actions would make that uncomfortable, I find it difficult to look at Steve Gaines without thinking about his past words and actions. However, unlike some, most Sundays I find I can walk into a worship service and set my feelings aside as long as we're not subjected to one of his self-serving sermons. On those occasions it can be a real internal battle.
I pray for him and his family daily, and I urge everyone to do the same. I truly wish him no ill will, but I cannot stand silently by and do nothing when I see truth and people trampled as they've been during the past year and a half.
All I want to see is integrity, openness, transparency, and accountability in our church leadership and an end to the arrogant "my way or the highway" attitudes we now see. If that can happen without a from-the-top-down housecleaning, that would be wonderful. My hopes of that happening are diminishing by the week, but all things are possible with God. Time will tell, and God's timing isn't necessarily our timing.
NASS
You can expect the truth as to the committee’s findings this Sunday evening as well.
I agree we will get some truth Sunday evening. However, we will not get the whole truth. We won't get it without a spin that they believe will provide the pastor a little bit of cover.
Bellevue, tomorrow night do not go home believing you know the whole story. More will be forthcoming. Sadly it won't come from the leadership. It will fall on the shoulders of others to put the report in its proper context. There is much backstory you need to fully understand what has happened and the seriousness of this matter. That backstory will help illuminate the error in judgment by our pastor and others.
Remember, if they had followed Scripture none of this would be necessary. The Lord knows best.
What a tangled web we weave when we endeavor to deceive. That's not Scripture. It's just a truism that fits.
nbbcof,
Steve Gaines would be different if he was not surrounded by men. For one, he wouldn't be able to get by with his arrogance. Men like Smith, Tucker, Caldwell, Taylor, Miller, Arnold, have grown to be powerful, controlling, arrogant, and prideful men who are destroying the church. All of these men were on the search committee that called Steve Gaines. In my opinion, they are all from the same mold.
Andrew, I know I am not going to change your mind- but God does not call us to submit to authority only when we think we should or when we think they deserve it. - just like a child who has unsaved parents... they are to submit unless it goes against God's word.
You can say that your purposes are noble a million times and it won't make it okay. Like I said, God doesn't need you to break the rules.
If BBC owns the copyright, they can let it be shown whenever and wherever they want, including YouTube. So I am guessing the Jim Barnwell knows and since it is not casting BBC in a negative light he has decided to leave them up.
"Saved"
You just slandered a half dozen of your brothers in Christ.
Repent.
NBBC I really appreciate you last post. I have been reading this blog for a while now and I think that that was a very mature statement. I deffinitly know that SG has made some mistakes but I don't hate the guy. I just wish that he would have had some close friends to walk with him along the way as he made some of the decisions he made. I know that whenever I have to make a difficult decision, or just a decision that I am not 100% sure of, I always seek wise counsel. I wish SG would have done that, any maybe he could have saved himself from a lot of what he has gone through. Beyond that it is my prayer that maybe God will use this situation to encourage him to have a "Holy Counsel" of men who will speak into his life. No pastor, no matter how large his church is above the need of help and prayer. I do think that we however hurt we may all be, need to always forgive. I do not mean, let things slide, but I do mean forgive him. God will deffinitly use this situation for His glory.
As for his speaking engagement next week... I can't think of a better place for SG. I want him around pastors like Mac Brunson. I think that Mac Brunson is a great pastor. I know he preaches the word. I hear from friends that FBC Jacksonville, though going through some changes, is actually growing. A tree must be pruined (changed) inorder for it to grow correctly... and honestly change is inevitable. BBC nor FBC will ever be what they were before either SG of MB got there, but if God has wanted them to stay the same he would never have called the former pastors home. FBC is a great church, and I am glad that SG may be surrounded by "Holy Counsel" and hopefully get recharged to come back to BBC with a new perspective. I know that this conference in the past has been what got me through very hard times, and I am praying that it will be that for SG. God is so good.
I am still wondering if anyone knows why PW originally confessed to SG?
danrather, your 10:05 podt was excellent.
bepatient, your 10:50 post was also excellent.
bepatient wrote: 'but God does not call us to submit to authority only when we think we should or when we think they deserve it. - just like a child who has unsaved parents... they are to submit unless it goes against God's word."
I thought that was exactly what Andrew was saying. He cannot submit to 'church' authorities that go against God's Word. For some reason you don't get that your pastor ignored scripture in this situation with PW. This says a lot about a pastor with 20 years experience.
If we are to submit we need to know scripture very well because the same Word tells us over and over to beware of wolves in sheeps clothing and those who want to 'tickle our ears'.
Everyone on here that I have read forgives SG, but that does not mean they think he is fit to be a pastor.
Bepatient said...
Andrew, I know I am not going to change your mind- but God does not call us to submit to authority only when we think we should or when we think they deserve it. - just like a child who has unsaved parents... they are to submit unless it goes against God's word.
You can say that your purposes are noble a million times and it won't make it okay. Like I said, God doesn't need you to break the rules.
10:50 AM, January 27, 2007
Bepatient,
So you believe that to go against authority is wrong. So you believe that Martin Luther should have submitted to church authority and was wrong not to do so.
I love my church wrote: “Bellevue, tomorrow night do not go home believing you know the whole story. More will be forthcoming. Sadly it won't come from the leadership. It will fall on the shoulders of others to put the report in its proper context. There is much backstory you need to fully understand what has happened and the seriousness of this matter. That backstory will help illuminate the error in judgment by our pastor and others.”
If you indeed loved Christ’s church you would not have posted the above. You do not know what will be presented tomorrow night but yet you assume the worst. You do not know any additional backstory than those on the committee. Why do you not follow scripture in this matter as you charge that others have failed to follow scripture? You are dealing with misinformation and untruth but yet you would write against Christ’s church. If you possess something that the committee may not be aware it is your duty to report that information. I seriously doubt that you know anything of a factual nature.
Saved:
Trying to figure out who has influenced who in this "Dr. Gaines and The Power Guys" group is like trying to figure out which came first, the chicken or the egg.
It appears the common denominator is their mutual love of power, position and money.
In a post at 5:31 pm, on January 25, ssbg posted the dedication page from Dr. Rogers' book "Standing for Light and Truth" in which Dr. Rogers named all the past Chairmen of the Deacons. Some of those men are still some of the most godly men we know. However, is it possible that some of these same men who were so dear to Dr. Rogers and who served so well under his leadership, have forgotten what they are truly at Bellevue for....to serve God first, then the pastor, then the congregation?
It seems that they have by-passed serving God, are concentrating only on serving and protecting the pastor, disregarding the congregation and focusing on maintaining their own positions of power at all costs.
My suggestion would be for everyone to go back and read Dr. Rogers' "Standing for Light and Truth". I just did, and I cannot tell you the blessings I received all over again.
No one has ever expected Dr. Gaines to be Dr. Rogers, but most of us welcomed him with open arms expecting that the one thing we could count on was that he would have the same measure of integrity as his "mentor and hero" in the service to the same Lord Jesus Christ!
How disappointing!
If you indeed loved Christ’s church you would not have posted the above. You do not know what will be presented tomorrow night but yet you assume the worst.
We have a proven history reguarding the truthfulness or or half-truthfullness of our leaders.How sad it is when a "Man of God" tells half truths from the pulpit.
The Truth is important to God imo:
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
1 Samuel 12:24 Only fear the LORD, and serve him in truth with all your heart: for consider how great things he hath done for you.
Psalm 25:10 All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.
Psalm 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.
Psalm 51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Psalm 57:10 For thy mercy is great unto the heavens, and thy truth unto the clouds.
Psalm 86:11 Teach me thy way, O LORD; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name.
Psalm 146:5-6 Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the LORD his God: Which made heaven, and earth, the sea, and all that therein is: which keepeth truth for ever.
Proverbs 12:19 The lip of truth shall be established for ever: but a lying tongue is but for a moment.
Isaiah 59:14-15 And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter. Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.
Jeremiah 5:3 O LORD, are not thine eyes upon the truth? thou hast stricken them, but they have not grieved; thou hast consumed them, but they have refused to receive correction: they have made their faces harder than a rock; they have refused to return.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Esther,
I am referring to a specific thing- there is a rule being enforced that you are not allowed to record Sunday night. Many here have stated they will disregard this. I do not believe that this rule goes against God's word. You get to NOT submit ONLY when the specific thing they are asking or telling you to do goes against God's word.
nthepew,
I hardly think the two things are worth comparing, and again, I am referring to this ONE SPECIFIC thing, not everything.
There is nothing unbiblical about asking you not to record the service.
just my opinion said...
If you indeed loved Christ’s church you would not have posted the above. You do not know what will be presented tomorrow night but yet you assume the worst. You do not know any additional backstory than those on the committee. Why do you not follow scripture in this matter as you charge that others have failed to follow scripture? You are dealing with misinformation and untruth but yet you would write against Christ’s church. If you possess something that the committee may not be aware it is your duty to report that information. I seriously doubt that you know anything of a factual nature.
You are so wrong. I don't need to report anything to the committee because they know the whole truth. Unless something has changed in the last 24-48 hours, I don't believe they will present it.
Let's clear something up. I know what the report says. I know what I'm talking about. You don't know what I and many others know. That's one of the problems with telling lies and distorting the truth. Others can call you on it. If it goes down as planned, they will be called on it. I pray they have changed their minds.
I call on someone, anyone, who is defending the pastor and the BBC leadership to present a detail biblical explanation of your point of view. Please explain it so we know where we are going wrong. Please explain why the pastor is not accountable to the deacons or the church. Please explain why the other leaders are not accountable to the church members. Please explain why we are violating Scripture by asking questions and seeking accountability. Please build the biblical case that proves unity should trump truth.
I want chapter and verse. I want analysis. Persuade me with a biblical argument that what we are doing is wrong. Don't just throw out Hebrews 13:17, that won't cut it. Give me something to go on and I might change my view.
A poster to the forum asked me those questions and I cannot answer him. So you would really be helpig many of us out if you can answer me. I anxiously await your explanation. If you can do it we might actually get somewhere. I'll admit I don't think anyone, including Brother Steve, can do it.
I'm so glad the gospel hasn't been copyrighted, trademarked, or had a price put upon it..there are still some good preachers of the gospel out there who consider the gospel message free...they put their messages all over the internet, free of charge for all who want to hear the gospel, to be downloaded at will, shared and spread with anyone else who wants to hear good news. Thank God for the few.
Bepatient said...
Esther,
I am referring to a specific thing- there is a rule being enforced that you are not allowed to record Sunday night. Many here have stated they will disregard this. I do not believe that this rule goes against God's word.
REPLY:
It is NOT a RULE, but merely a REQUEST, as printed in bellevuetoday.
As a courtesy to nearby worshippers, please REFRAIN from still photography,
or making video and audio recordings of the worship service. Thank you.
To be fair BBC also puts their sermons, etc. on the internet for free. They just want to retain the copyright to ensure that the sermons are not misrepresented or used in a way that doesn't glorify GOD.
Call it a request, but it is a rule that has been in effect for quite some time but was rarely enforced. I regret that the actions of Jim Haywood have caused these consequences. You can jump on the semantics all you want, but I hope you don't think that will fool God.
bepatient,
Do you think the lies that have been told by the BBC leadership are fooling God? I promise they aren't fooling God or us either. You might want work on your arguments. That one is too easily turned around on you.
Semantics?...don't even start..I've seen enough hair-splitting semantics on here to fill a library. The men I'm talking about don't care about building their own personal reps, or who does what with their sermons...they figure they stand on their own.
I would like to introduce a few of our newest members, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, and Paul… They are extremely disappointed to hear that services have been copyrighted. These fellows have been known in the past to transcribe services from synagogues and church meetings to distribute for the edification and reproof of other churches.
Copyright infringements may have been breeched by Paul in his writings to churches in Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, and Thessalonica and enforcement could well remove a significant portion of the New Testament from the Bible. There may also have been a breech of copyright laws and even slander against churches in Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea as reported by the apostle John in the 2nd and 3rd chapters of Revelation.
We should anxiously await the report from our leadership concerning these pressing issues.
Let me please, if you will indulge me about my earlier post this morning on the article on the Daytona church, clarify my statement. I stated this, "I would love to see this story follow up now at Bellevue!!!" I was meaning that I hope you can all have a wonderful "Homecoming"...meaning all the strayed sheep can return to their rightful places at Bellevue...where they all were before all of this transpired. I share your burden on being misplaced. As far as the minister resigning I offer only this. My prayer is that Steve Gaines would repent. Above all I pray for God's will...that is what I pray for in my own life, and certainly in the lives of others. Bellevue is magnificent and should restored to Her glory where she has rightfully stood for many, many years. This is my prayer.
I Love My Church Wrote:
"Bellevue, tomorrow night do not go home believing you know the whole story. More will be forthcoming. Sadly it won't come from the leadership. It will fall on the shoulders of others to put the report in its proper context. There is much backstory you need to fully understand what has happened and the seriousness of this matter. That backstory will help illuminate the error in judgment by our pastor and others."
To which JustMyOpinion wrote:
"If you indeed loved Christ’s church you would not have posted the above. You do not know what will be presented tomorrow night but yet you assume the worst. You do not know any additional backstory than those on the committee. Why do you not follow scripture in this matter as you charge that others have failed to follow scripture? You are dealing with misinformation and untruth but yet you would write against Christ’s church. If you possess something that the committee may not be aware it is your duty to report that information. I seriously doubt that you know anything of a factual nature."
To which I Love My Church responded:
"You are so wrong. I don't need to report anything to the committee because they know the whole truth. Unless something has changed in the last 24-48 hours, I don't believe they will present it. Let's clear something up. I know what the report says. I know what I'm talking about. You don't know what I and many others know. That's one of the problems with telling lies and distorting the truth. Others can call you on it. If it goes down as planned, they will be called on it. I pray they have changed their minds."
25+ says:
NOTE use of "backstory" in I Love My Church's original post... interesting...
"Backstory" it seems can be important in court too. Example:
"Attorneys want backstory kept out of CIA leak case"
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-10-31-cia-leak_x.htm
It appears that such "backstory" can be very illuminating and helpful in seeing the truth about a matter. Interesting use of words in my opinion.
I have not lied to anyone, so no, you cannot turn it around on me. You don't get to use other people's actions to excuse your own.
And for the record, how does recording the report part of the service have anything to do with spreading the Gospel?
bepatient said...
Call it a request, but it is a rule that has been in effect for quite some time but was rarely enforced.
Reply:
Therefore a PRECEDENT has been set. Do you seriously think that the bellevuetoday statement was worded as it is w/o counsel advice.
Also, GOD is NEVER fooled!!!!
I'm not an attorney...who owns the copyright?..if that is BBC...then explain who BBC is.
Lets explain copyrights like this...
lets say I write a story about a puppy named Peter. I own the copyright to it. At that point I have several choices...
I can pass it out to the world to be used free with no repercussions or restrictions,
I can pass it out to those I feel are using my story in a way I find acceptable, or
I can hold onto it and not allow anyone to use it for any reason except for myself.
Also copyrights on last for a certain length of time and since they didn't even have copyrights in Biblical times, I think that is a non-argument.
BBC exists as a business, corporation, whatever the proper title for it is- they can have bank accounts, checks, tax status, in the name of Bellevue Baptist Church. There is no "ownership" exactly, just stewards of the "church" as an entity. But like it or not, it is an entity.
So then the copyright is basically owned by a non-descript, abstract something?
bepatient said...
There is no "ownership" exactly, just stewards of the "church" as an entity.
REPLY:
And who might those stewards be?
Bepatient
Read this earlier thought I was a valid point.What do you think????
notabbcidol said...
Been lurking here for a long time but now I have a question about recording the service.
The church is made up of members who select the leaders.Yet the very members of this church are not allowed to record the leader that they voted in, am I missing something here?
One last question how is it disrupting the service if I have a voice recorder in my pocket?
10:17 PM, January 26, 2007
Bepatient,
Bellevue Baptist CHURCH...
What is a church?
A building? A Corporation? or
the people--the members?
If the BB corporation works against the BB church--the members, don't you think something seems wrong?
Heaven, by the way, will record tomorrow night's presentation in full--copyrighted or not.
I don't know a lot about corporate entities, but from what I read in newspapers, etc. in a corporation, the shareholders have part ownership...is that correct?
nthepew, 25+yrs@bbc, allofgrace,
Ya'll are going in the exact same direction that I am.
The reason I ask is because it would seem that this would reach beyond copyright ownership to include real property, stocks and bonds, cash deposits, etc.
Good to see you posting Allofgrace. I appreaciate you brother.
25+..thanks, I appreciate you as well.
In a corporate environment, owned by shareholders...don't the shareholders sometimes..or perhaps always, have proxies who represent their interests in the corporation..and if so, are these proxies chosen by the shareholders to represent them?
Does anyone other than me find it interesting that some of you are so quick to give creditability to unnamed people on this blog (yes, I’m an unnamed as well) but be so quick to caste dispersions on men who have served our church with honor and integrity for many years? The same men in leadership now were and have been in leadership under Dr. Rogers. We are quick to believe that “I love my church” knows something of importance that could set aside the findings of men who have proven integrity. There is no way that “I love my church” has any knowledge of the committee’s report. If she/he did then they would not be posting what they have.
BTW... This discussion is right on thread topic because the issue of accountability when there is "moral failure" should concern the congregation--because of congregational governance. Who or what is BBC? One man? A few men? or the church members?? Is this about copyright or is it about having something to fear from the record of the night's presentation being crystal clear as a recording? As christians we are to avoid all appearances of evil. Does prohibiting recording a service that has serious ramifications for all of the membership accomplish that?
Just my opinion...
There are those outside the committee members who have already seen the report. That is a fact. You are doing at least as much assuming as you charge ILMC with.
I fail to see how asking legitimate questions regarding corporate entities and how they operate as slander...the men you mention I have no personal acquaintance with, so I can't speak to their character.
bepatient,
I did not say you have lied. I said church leaders have lied. Are you a church leader?
For the record, I plan on going
tomorrow night, and I do not plan on disrupting the service. I will, however, have a small recording device on my person.
There will be no mistake what is said. We will not need to argue about who said what. We will have a unaltered record of it.
Are you listening, steve gaines?
History has shown when tapes record the record, mem have a hard time rewriting history.
For example, Richard Nixon taped his own words and it was his own words (in the famous Nixon Oval Office tapes), not the words of others that proved wrongdoing.
In TN government recently, men have been caught on tape doing things and saying things that proved truth. The truth didn't change whether it was recorded or not. The tape just convinced the world with their own eyes and ears.
Is there anything we say or do from the pulpit we don't want taped? I hope nothing said or done will ever not want to be broadcast to the world. We don't need to be afraid of the truth and where the truth may lead us.
Also, since we are selling tapes of the services, does anyone know if we are getting the choir and soloists to sign a form giving permission for Bellevue to use their voices on revenue generating tapes? I'm not saying I'm for doing this. The reporter in me is curious.
Looks like there will be more than ONE personal recording device.
AOG, the church is a non-profit entity. In this situation the membership does not own a share or have an ownership position per se. For example, if the church were to lose membership and have a total membership of say 200 people they could not sell the property for $90 million dollars and divide the proceeds among each other.
aog wrote: So then the copyright is basically owned by a non-descript, abstract something?"
You are killing me here.
As to the copyright. That is a non issue that would not hold up in court with a member recording a service. What is someone records the service at home from the tv for crying out loud.
However, there is only one reason they do not want it recorded by the peons sitting in the pews: Future reference.
If there is a record, everyone can point to what was left out, etc. If there is no record, this could go on for years and years as to what was really said or meant by something.Chaos and confusion.
How something is said carries more weight than actual words. Tone and body language communicate quite a bit.
They also don't want it all over the internet. But, I can't imagine why..... if it glorifies Christ.
Will they have bouncers at the doors checking pockets and purses?
Well that's kind of what I'm getting at...exactly who has ownership?...if there is ownership, then that would seem to imply that a person or group of persons has ownership..otherwise, who would enforce copyright, decide on sale of real property, disposal of funds, etc?..In other words, how does an entity deal with these issues...it would seem an entity is still made up of a person or persons...but again, I'm not an attorney..certainly not a corporate expert.
MaybeJustMaybe,
Let me say to you that I so enjoy your posts. You truly have a gift with your words. You bless me everytime you post.
just my opinion,
You do not know what you say.
You are wrong.
If 200 wanted to sell the church and divide $90,000,000 it can be done.
Believe me, money goes out the back door to people who are not set up as non profit organizations.
Stop blogging things that are not true.
" For example, if the church were to lose membership and have a total membership of say 200 people they could not sell the property for $90 million dollars and divide the proceeds among each other. "
What happens when they close churches? Because they do. The members do not expect "dividends" or stock proceeds because they were sowing into the church. Most that close and sell the property send it to the state convention. So, it kind of stays within the corporate family, so to speak. That has been what I have seen here.
Who owns the church: Christ. And if we only follow His precepts we would not be talking about copyrights. How silly!
By the way, you guys should be receiving a detailed budget at least 2x a year. I get one from my church mailed to me. Down to what the janitor makes and what was spent on SS supplies for the 5 year olds.
That is accountability.
lin,
Thanks for that info, I've often wondered what happened to property, funds, etc. when a church disbands.
just my opinion,
The church does not belong to the members in the same sense a corporation belongs to the stockholders. Neither does it belong to the 15 men who control Bellevue. They have no more rights to Bellevue than the rest of us do. Do you think they understand this?
Folks,
FYI...this is directly from the Tennessee Secretary of State website:
Name I.D. Number
BELLEVUE BAPTIST CHURCH 0060669
Business Type*: CORPORATION
Profit/Nonprofit:
Status*: ACTIVE
Date of Formation/Qualification: 03/25/1929
Domestic/Foreign: DOMESTIC
Place of Incorporation/Organization: SHELBY
Duration: PERPETUAL
FYC(Fiscal Year Closing) Month: MARCH
Principal Office:
Address Line 1: 2000 APPLING ROAD
Address Line 2:
City: CORDOVA
State: TN
Zip: 380181210
Other than USA:
Principal Office:
Address Line 1: 2000 APPLING ROAD
Address Line 2:
City: CORDOVA
State: TN
Zip: 380181210
Other than USA:
Registered Agent:
Name: NEELY,GREEN,FARGARSON & BROOKE
Address Line 1: 65 UNION AVE, 9TH FL
Address Line 2: COTTON EXCH. BLDG
City: MEMPHIS
State: TN
Zip: 381730543
The Bellevue Foundation is also a corporation separate from Bellevue Baptist Church.
I ran across this and thought that it may be helpful to some of the previous posts....
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Churches-Die-Diagnosing-Poisons/dp/0805431810
Mac Brunson may be able to help us after all. I am going to go pick a copy up today. I will be sure to let you all know what I think.
becontagious,
Here is the entire book minus chapters 1 & 7.
Mac Brunson
Okay, lets try this again and take out the argument about what constitutes "the church".
Steve Gaines will be speaking Sunday night. David Coombs will be speaking. They have the right to say how their image and words are re-broadcast.
And we can stop arguing about this being about copyrighting the gospel, because I hardly think that any one who is secretly recording this will be using it to bring people to Christ.
bepatient,
If you'll notice my last few posts were not about copyrighting the gospel, they were questions concerning how ownership of copyright, property, money, etc. pertain to a corporate entity..how that works...I think we've moved on from copyright of the gospel.
bepatient wrote:
"Lets explain copyrights like this...
"lets say I write a story about a puppy named Peter. I own the copyright to it. At that point I have several choices...
I can pass it out to the world to be used free with no repercussions or restrictions,
I can pass it out to those I feel are using my story in a way I find acceptable, or
I can hold onto it and not allow anyone to use it for any reason except for myself."
And what about Peter's rights. Does he have any?
NASS
bepatient said...
They have the right to say how their image and words are re-broadcast.
Reply:
Based on what?
NASS,
Since Peter exists only in my mind... I am going to say "no" :-)
AOG, I have not been posting since the copyrighting the gospel comments and I would like to head off any further argument about it.
Charlie, here you go...
"In the United States, copyright has been made automatic (in the style of the Berne Convention) since March 1, 1989, which has had the effect of making it appear to be more like a property right. Thus, as with property, a copyright need not be granted or obtained through official registration with any government office. Once an idea has been reduced to tangible form, for example by securing it in a fixed medium (such as a drawing, sheet music, photograph, a videotape or a letter), the copyright holder is entitled to enforce his or her exclusive rights."
If SG and company do not alter or edit the original words that come from their mouth, we have no problem with MY recording verses THEIRS.
What's the problem?
I"m not disrupting the service. It won't be worth anything if it matches up with the one THEY tape.
For heavens' sakes, I"m not standing up in the front of the worship center with a big camera, getting in the way. I'm sitting in my seat, calmly, reverently, and quietly.
If they have nothing to hide, what's the problem?
Seems to me, in my humble little opinion, that those who are arguing AGAINST taping it, are trying to protect SG. Do you think that maybe they WILL alter it? And you don't want a record of it elsewhere?
There will be an announcement made in a public forum (the church). The rights to the information will therefore become public knowledge and the rights to the information will be owned by the public at large.
There is obviously some train of thinking that would infer that recording this information with a pen and piece of paper would violate someones rights. It would take an extremely talanted person to transcrible this information so the use of audio or video devices will be welcome to insure the reliability of the transcript.
Since there is no doubt that these statements will be closely scrutinized, it would be highly advisable that they be completely truthful.
bepatient said...
the copyright holder is entitled to enforce his or her exclusive rights.
Reply:
And who is the copyright holder in the situation that we are discussing?
I understand WHY you want it recorded, I am simply stating that you don't have the right to do so.
The rights to the information may be public knowledge, just as the set list for a public concert might be public knowledge but you can't re-broadcast the video or audio without permission.
There is no doubt that the tangible form of the announcement released will become the copyrighted property of the church. By the same means the multiple independant recordings will become the property of those recording and may be copyrighted should they choose to do so. Those possessing such personal property will have the freedom to release that property to whomever and for whatever purpose they see fit. Public information becomes the property of the public domain.
If the church does not want to release a public statement then they should produce a copyrighted CD to distribute to the membership and can therefore forbid the reproduction or distribution of such information.
NOT recording it protects SG. Period.
And as long as I am sitting in the audience, I will be sure that I know what I heard.
The spin doctors will not be able to twist and distort the truth.
If they do not twist and distort the truth, and THEIR audio is the same as mine, I can throw mine away.
I seek TRUTH. That's all. That is my motivation. Period.
bepatient said...
The rights to the information may be public knowledge, just as the set list for a public concert might be public knowledge but you can't re-broadcast the video or audio without permission.
Reply:
There is a HUGE difference. This example won't fly.
The copyright holder would be the person speaking.
p. s.
Truth is biblical.
copyright is automatic. You cannot post or use my image or words (or anyone elses) without my permission, no matter what.
You cannot use that recording for your own purposes without breaking the law.
Let me repeat the statement from tomorrow's BellevueToday:
"As a courtesy to nearby worshippers, please refrain from still photography, or making video and audio recordings of the worship service. Thank you."
I see nothing that would indicate anything to do with copyright infringement. It seems to strictly be a matter of distracting fellow worshippers. Which brings us back to the question of how a small digital recording device in one's pocket could possibly be a distraction to anyone.
Tomorrow, Sunday, morning take special care to look at all the beautiful children God has blessed us with. Enjoy their warm smiles, their infectious giggles and shinning eyes!
Put on the full armor of God and do serious battle to protect these tender ones.
You may be the one person they see as a Godly role model. You may be the hands and feet of Jesus to them or to an adult victim of child abuse.
There never has been , there never will be a grey area when it comes to child molestation.
Do not accept half truths or rhetoric. Do not accept ignorance or misplaced compassion.
Pray for God's wisdom and discernment to face the opposition. Follow God's word no matter what others may think or do.
Stand on the Word of God!!
bepatient,
Breaking the law..ok...I'm going to think about that because I really do not want to break the law. I know that is not biblical.
It would be incorrect to believe that the person speaking hold copyright to a public announcement. It should be self evident that if this were the case we would have many politicians having information suppressed from public knowledge because they hold the copyright. The producer of the tangible object holds the rights to the object which they produced.
bepatient,
Where did you get your law degree?
Why do you continue to argue nonsense? Are you trying to stir the pot? There is no court of law that will prohibit a member of Bellevue recording something said from the pulpit to be broadcast at a later date for information purposes.
Bepatient said...
The copyright holder would be the person speaking.
Reply:
You need to do more research on when the speaker is speaking on behalf of the speaker's employer, ie, presenting a report for said employer, as will be the case Sunday nite.
If you record ME-- I own the right to say how you use that image. If you post a video of me let's say..making soup on youtube without my permission, I can demand that you take it down.
But it boils down to this, if you can reconcile what you are doing with God and His word, go ahead. You will have to answer for what you do.
icu nurse,
BINGO!!!!!!!
I see no reason for the church leadership to "discriminate" on who and what may be recorded.
Certainly many members have recorded different events at our Church over the years. This is an entitlement given to all member as long as it is not disruptive. Just smile and continue and they will be the one that is being disruptive.
I doubt anyone would escort you out as this could become somewhat of a legal liability for the individual and the curch.
If someone needs good counsel in this area of the law, contact
Marshall, Gerstein & Borun LLP.
They are attorneys at law located in Chicago and one of the best in America.
Marshall, Gerstein & Borun LLP
6300 Sears Tower
233 South Wacker Drive
Chicago, Illinois 60606-6357
(312)474-6300
My guess is for around $300.00 to $500.00 they would write a legal opinion in this matter but that's a guess only.
charlie,
either way, YOU are not the employer and do not have a right to it.
As earlier stated the only means by which to make a public statement and hold copyright upon that statement is to produce the statement on a tangible medium. The producer of a tangible medium (in this case a pocket recorder) holds the copyright to the tangible medium which they produced.
For someone to infer that producing such a tangible medium in a public forum is in violation of law is incorrect. There have been a multitude of independant recordings of public announcements and events over the past 50 years.
Perhaps we should be patient while a response if formulated to explain why there has never been a single prosecution of anyone recording and distritbuting those recordings made from public forums. Perhaps we should be patient while a repsonse is formulated to explain whether Bellevue will be the first to attempt to prosecute.
Perhaps if we are patient enough, eventually their will be an admission that there are some that are speaking without any real leagl knowledge.
Whoever at Bellevue is telling members not to record tomorrow night's session is creating more distrust among the membership. There is enough already. Therefore, if anyone is behind this--whoever they may be--they should be disciplined or fired. Bellevue is sick. The sickness has symtoms of lack of transparency, appearance of cover-up, ad infinitum. The antidote is truth--brightly lit, fearless truth. Truth does not fear light--or recorders. jmo.
From an earlier post>>>>
bepatient said...
There is no "ownership" exactly, just stewards of the "church" as an entity.
REPLY:
And who might those stewards be?
From Bellevue.org (now this applies specifically to internet content, but my understanding is that it is church policy in general)
"Copyright Ownership. All of the materials on Bellevue’s web site are copyrighted and protected under domestic and worldwide copyright laws, including treaty provisions. They may not be copied, reproduced, modified, published, uploaded, posted, transmitted or distributed in any way without prior written consent of Bellevue."
bepatient said...
But it boils down to this, if you can reconcile what you are doing with God and His word, go ahead. You will have to answer for what you do.
REPLY:
Piece of cake, because GOD DEMANDS TRUTH!!!!!
icu nurse,
that is not correct.
If I record something onto a VHS tape from the tv, I do not own it.
There are plenty of instances of this, one I can think of easily is concerts and music. If Elvis Presley played a free concert in Tom Lee Park and you recorded it and he told you not to, you do not own the rights to that tape. He, or his estate in this example would own the rights.
There is some kind of exception for someone that is defined as a "public figure" (including politicians)which relates to the paparazzi, etc. But plenty of celebrities have sued magazines and photographers for use of their image.
The Heavy Hitter said...
I see no reason for the church leadership to "discriminate" on who and what may be recorded.
Certainly many members have recorded different events at our Church over the years. This is an entitlement given to all member as long as it is not disruptive. Just smile and continue and they will be the one that is being disruptive.
I doubt anyone would escort you out as this could become somewhat of a legal liability for the individual and the curch.
If someone needs good counsel in this area of the law, contact
Marshall, Gerstein & Borun LLP.
They are attorneys at law located in Chicago and one of the best in America.
Marshall, Gerstein & Borun LLP
6300 Sears Tower
233 South Wacker Drive
Chicago, Illinois 60606-6357
(312)474-6300
My guess is for around $300.00 to $500.00 they would write a legal opinion in this matter but that's a guess only.
2:32 PM, January 27, 2007
I understand David Combs is going to be addressing us tomorrow evening.
On TV the other day, it titled him Rev. David Combs, Executive Pastor.
Does anyone know if David Combs is an ordained pastor? I thought he was a wealthy business man.
I'm done. I can't argue this anymore. I know that I am right, but all you do is twist what I say into a different argument. If anyone would like to have a real conversation about this, please feel free to email me.
bepatient said:
If you record ME-- I own the right to say how you use that image.
response:
Ok, let's make a deal: I won't record you, UNLESS, of course, you plan to be standing and/or speaking next to SG. In which case, we can have a secret signal...say...tugging on your earlobe, and that will alert me to the fact that I do not have persmission to record you.
There...now everybody is happy. We can sing , ' sweet sweet spirit' now. ;)
Bepatient... tell your employer that I think that there will be so many electrical devices there tomorrow night--between members and law enforcement (yes, something to consider)--that the sound guys may have trouble with feedback over the microphone. jmo
bepatient,
It would appear from what you've said, that copying and pasting someone's words from these blog posts would qualify as copyright infringement, since permission is not asked or granted.
bepatient said...
But plenty of celebrities have sued magazines and photographers for use of their image.
Reply:
Don't they sue for invasion of privacy, not the images themselves.
And to add to that..wouldn't taking quotes out of context on this blog constitute the very thing that it's said that forbidding recording of the announcement is intended to prevent?
Whoever at Bellevue is telling members not to record tomorrow night's session is creating more distrust among the membership. There is enough already. Therefore, if anyone is behind this--whoever they may be--they should be disciplined or fired. Bellevue is sick. The sickness has symtoms of lack of transparency, appearance of cover-up, ad infinitum. The antidote is truth--brightly lit, fearless truth. Truth does not fear light--or recorders. jmo.
bepatient said....
I'm done. I can't argue this anymore. I know that I am right.
Reply:
Then we shall lovingly agree to disagree. May God Bless you today and everyday.
Cat said...
I understand David Combs is going to be addressing us tomorrow evening.
On TV the other day, it titled him Rev. David Combs, Executive Pastor.
Does anyone know if David Combs is an ordained pastor? I thought he was a wealthy business man.
2:49 PM, January 27, 2007
Cat,
Are you kidding me, David is not ordained.
That's leads me to ask this. Who decides to ordain someone to the ministry and what should motivate someone to do so?
Is it that one day you are a corporate executive and the next you are working at BBC? Then, months later we will ordain you and you are now "Reverend."
I guess now we should start singing ...Glory Glory Hallelujah his truth is marching on.......
:::::::::::charging up my recording device::::::::::::
There have been so many issues confronting Bellevue at this time that people have known they were right. All the way up to the point that they were proven wrong. Amazingly enough even after having been proven wrong these same people claim to know they are right.
Chinese proverb:
Hey pot, this is the water pitcher. I am wight, you are wong.
p. s.
And unless they plan to frisk this lady at the door, it's goin in!!!
sickofthelies,
Bless you.
You don't have an email address posted, nor do I, but I have a "personal" question for you. Did someone once recommend you for a job in a broom factory? If so, I'm in your BFC. And regardless of your answer, I love you, my dear sister in Christ.
mjm
MJM,
Following on floor, laughing my head off...
Yes...yes, tis true.
And I knew who you were already, and I love you, too!!! :)
The Heavy Hitter said...
I see no reason for the church leadership to "discriminate" on who and what may be recorded.
Certainly many members have recorded different events at our Church over the years. This is an entitlement given to all member as long as it is not disruptive. Just smile and continue and they will be the one that is being disruptive.
HeavyHitter,
Great post is the key words in your post are discriminate and entitlement.
As a member we do have certain privileges and recording event as long as we are not selling for profit. That is the key, do not sell for profit.
I know people who will have their cell phones on while someone on the other end of the line is recording while their speaker phone is one.
Heavy Hitter,
I thought it was a law you had to be ordained to be a pastor in Tennessee.
Check SavingBellevue site for interesting announcement:
“A group for members from Bellevue Baptist Church, called Integrity Does Count, Inc., announces the formation of its board and charter.”
Attention:
Bookmark this link. It appears that there is more going on behind the scenes than JMO is aware of.
Finally Something is Happening
This has been needed for months. Perhaps there are more than just a few of us out there.
sickofthelies,
You just made my day. Wish you could see my grin.
Have a blessed day, my dear friend. You're one in a million!
Love you,
mjm
Cat said...
Heavy Hitter,
I thought it was a law you had to be ordained to be a pastor in Tennessee.
3:20 PM, January 27, 2007
Cat,
BBC probably told the media he was a minister.
Again, someone had a mistake of the mind.
Attention:
Bookmark this link. It appears that there is more going on behind the scenes than JMO is aware of.
TEXT
This has been needed for months. Perhaps there are more than just a few of us out there.
The link won't work. Just go here.
http://www.integritydoescount.com/
How does one become an ordained minister? Is a certain level of education required? OR does another pastor, just ' ordain' you?
I've always pondered that.
Link
Why do we have seminaries if we don't need them?
What does it mean when churches are run by businessmen instead of pastors?
Maybe it is all about the money.
Wouldn't you have to be an ordained minister to be an Associate Pastor? Thats what Coomb's job title is.
ok, so i have read the press release, and am I to understand that BBC has broken the law with regard to a non profit organization?
So why are we all arguing amoungst ourselves about breaking the law? Shouln't BBC set an example? I am a law abiding citizen!! Why aren't they???
I would think all pastors, associate pastors, ministers, etc. would need to be an ordained minister. Was he maybe ordained as a deacon and it carried over?
I believe to hold the title of pastor or reverend you'd have to be ordained, though not necessarily seminary trained. Unless I'm mistaken, one who feels a call into gospel ministry normally goes to his home church and makes such announcement..then the ordained men of that local body examine him, and either confirm his calling or not. If confirmed the local body has authority to ordain him...to my limited knowledge anyhow...anyone is welcome to correct what I've said.
Yes, BBC should set an example. However, thusfar it doesn't seem as though they have. I pray those in authority at BBC will realize this responsiblity and correct any wrongdoings...hopefully beginning tomorrow night.
It is not a requirement to be a seminary graduate to become a staff member or even the associate pastor at Bellevue. There have been some references to putting such requirements in place. It might be a good idea, but over the years at Bellevue we have had some of the finest ministers on earth that were not seminary graduates.
sickofthelies,
After reviewing how a good part of the day on the blog was consumed with discussions of the law it is confusing that the church would be unconcerned with upholding the law. Isn't it?
We have a church that will not abide by the by-laws in place.
We have a church that will not abide by state laws in accordance with T.C.A. 48-66-101.
We have a church that has will not abide by federal law by ignoring the co-mingling of funds.
We have a church that will not abide by the laws of God as outlined in Matthew 18.
The church has refused legal authority, governmental authority (state and federal) and scriptural authority.
Does the church recognize any authority?
II Timothy 3:1-5
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 traitors, heady, high-minded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
AOG, you are on target about how ministers are ordained. Anyone who has spend any length of time in an active church should know how this works.
Cat, may I be so forward as to suggest that your ignorance of both law and facts are lacking. You should not aggressive post when the things you list are not truthful. If you don't know for certain then speculation is not appropriate.
It appears that our Sunday night attendance should be at a record level. As far as the new organization.....at least they have established a mail drop. I still do not see any mention of names. Secondly, I would not be so eager to have my church release my name to someone so that they can have a mailing list. I get enough junk mail as it is.
Folks,
You really don't need to pack recording devices...you guys are getting a little desperate and sad, wouldn't you say? The media are going to be there tomorrow night and they are recording the whole report so you don't have to fear like they will say stuff and it won't get out, because they will have the feed from the IMAG.
SickOfTheLies/Charlie, thanks for admitting you will have a recording device...that's real mature on the part of both of you. I will be watching you so you better not disturb me. :)
ace said...
Folks,
You really don't need to pack recording devices...you guys are getting a little desperate and sad, wouldn't you say? The media are going to be there tomorrow night and they are recording the whole report so you don't have to fear like they will say stuff and it won't get out, because they will have the feed from the IMAG.
SickOfTheLies/Charlie, thanks for admitting you will have a recording device...that's real mature on the part of both of you. I will be watching you so you better not disturb me. :)
4:09 PM, January 27, 2007
Ace,
Sory, you have it wrong on this one. Fact, no media will be allowed in. Good try ..Guess you are hoping with you stmt people will not record.
I suppose you are out of the loop on this.
6680 ACE, from an earlier post.
back pew said...
Real ACE,
Could you be Ryan Wingo?
Charlie Fox says,
Ace you say you always answer questions. Answer back pew's question.
BCCGone_Mad,
Sory, you have it wrong on this one. Fact, no media will be allowed in.
Must I prove you guys wrong again? The media WILL be there tomorrow night. Once again, if they aren't, there goes my credibility....if they are, then you owe me an apology. Please do not pretend like you know what you're talking about because in this situation you don't.
Good try ..Guess you are hoping with you stmt people will not record.
I'm not sure what you're saying here? I am not hoping anything, I am simply stating the facts as they are.
I suppose you are out of the loop on this.
Nope, I'm afraid you are out of the loop on this one, sorry.
Charlie,
Why does it even matter who I am? I am not Ryan Wingo.
jmo,
What did I say to offend you?
Do my questions not count?
I have opinions just like you do.
Do you always get mad when people ask questions?
ACE,
I think you are a want-to -be!
Ace, you are saying the Church is allowing this to be recorded by the media?
Ace, you think it's now ok to invite the world in and set up their cameras?
Is that what you ae saying?
Why would BBC allow this?
Something smells here, oh but I will record just in case you are wrong. But wait, you feel important so you must be right.
Ace, I'll bet you didn't get much attention in high school?
ezekiel,
Thanks for the Micah 6 anyway. I looked it up and it appears to me that God wanted to see humility, justice, and hearts that were pointed to Him.
Micah asked the leaders to pay attention to God's warning of judgement.
They got rich from dishonesty.
Their acts of injustice showed where their hearts were.
Because Israel had sinned, God must judge them.
Thanks again for the reference.
BBCGone_Wild,
I think you are a want-to -be!
Thanks for your opinion.
Ace, you are saying the Church is allowing this to be recorded by the media?
The church is allowing the media to connect to the IMAG screens. Basicaly, whatever is on the big screens, the media is getting. If they allow this, you cry and complain...if they don't, you cry and complain. You will never be satisfied.
Ace, you think it's now ok to invite the world in and set up their cameras?
Listen carefully to what I'm saying...they are not allowed to setup their camera in the sanctuary (or anywhere else). They are not allowed to record anything except for the feed from the IMAG.
Is that what you ae saying?
Read above to see what I was saying.
Ace, I'll bet you didn't get much attention in high school?
And what exactly is this suppose to mean? A personal attack? How sad.
jmo said...
Secondly, I would not be so eager to have my church release my name to someone so that they can have a mailing list. I get enough junk mail as it is.
Reply:
It is the TENNESSEE LAW and NOT an option. TSC 48-66-101, 102, 103, 104, 105.
6680 ace,
Thanx for the answer.
Can someone explain to me what the difference is in a seminary trained pastor and a businessman?
With today's access to study material, anyone can study the Word and teach.
My question is this. If a man is called to be a pastor, why did he get rich first in business and then decide to bypass seminary and go into the ministry?
My opinion is that he isn't really a pasto. He may be a businessman who can help run the church but he shouldn't be given the title of pastor, associate pastor, executive pastor, or anything else.
Just My Opinion,
Before you go off on me again, this is just my opinion.
Like you, I may not be right.
Heavy Hitter,
Is it discrimination for Ace to allow the media to tape the service and not allow the membership?
You seem like you know what you are talking about.
Have we ever seen you on TV before?
You sound familiar.
Cat,
Is it discrimination for Ace to allow the media to tape the service and not allow the membership?
No, because the press has permissions and you don't. No discrimination, just rules which you should abide by... you know, submitting to authority... because I can't remember in the Bible where it tells us that the bloggers are above the Law.
Is BBC above the law when responding to the Tenn. law which REQUIRES that they make the membership list available to ANY member?
Just curious.
:::::::::;;charging recording device:::::::::::::
Sick,
Are you above the law? Because you are breaking it by bringing a recording device...
Just wonderin'
Cat,
A call to ministry is a call to be trained. Shepherds of the sheep of the Lord Jesus should be trained. Imagine being operated on by someone with no medical training.... There was a time when the seminaries were polluted with liberal thought and the result was that some ministerial students who were sent to seminary had a very negative experience. Not so today.
Ace,
tell your friends (or family) on the inside to follow the law about providing a membership list if they expect the membership to respect their directives.
jmo
There are approximately 44,000 SBC churches, all of which are autonomous (a fancy word meaning independent) from each other. Other denominations have different structures that allow a centralized body to tell each local body what to do. Article 6 of the Baptist Faith and Message says the following:
“A New Testament church of the Lord Jesus Christ is an autonomous local congregation of baptized believers, associated by covenant in the faith and fellowship of the gospel; observing the two ordinances of Christ, governed by His laws, exercising the gifts, rights, and privileges invested in them by His Word, and seeking to extend the gospel to the ends of the earth. Each congregation operates under the Lordship of Christ through democratic processes. In such a congregation each member is responsible and accountable to Christ as Lord. Its scriptural officers are pastors and deacons. While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.
The New Testament speaks also of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all of the redeemed of all the ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.”
BBC church leaders have recently tried to misapply this idea of autonomy to mean that local churches are immune from any criticism from outside religious agencies, schools, individuals, or media outlets, however appropriate it may be.
When a man in a SBC church feels a call to ministry, he is usually examined by the ordained men of his church and then licensed to the Gospel ministry. This is a church’s way of putting their “stamp” on him. He is later ordained (set aside for the ministry) by his home church or the first church he serves once graduating from seminary. Ordination is required to claim a housing allowance from the IRS and to perform a marriage ceremony.
Must someone attend seminary to be a minister? No, but why wouldn’t a man want to be prepared in the best way possible for what God has called him to do? You would certainly want a man or woman in whom you have trusted your children (a teacher or doctor) or someone you go to when troubled (an attorney or counselor) to have the best education possible. Why would we expect any less from our ministers? I once heard a seminary student complain about the difficulty of seminary classes. His professor replied, “When you think about the training a medical doctor undergoes just to understand the human body, how much more should we study to understand their soul.” Even if seminary made a man 10% better it is worth it. I think it is absolutely invaluable to rub shoulders and learn from men of God in a seminary environment as they model love and concern for people in churches. It could very well be that BBC has slipped into a corporate mentality because of businessmen who have taken the title “pastor."
No published LAW or RULE is being broken by recording the BBC meeting.
Psalm 43:3 said:
"It could very well be that BBC has slipped into a corporate mentality because of businessmen who have taken the title 'pastor.'"
25+ says:
I'd say that might qualify as the thought of the day... jmo.
"In the United States, copyright has been made automatic (in the style of the Berne Convention) since March 1, 1989, which has had the effect of making it appear to be more like a property right. Thus, as with property, a copyright need not be granted or obtained through official registration with any government office. Once an idea has been reduced to tangible form, for example by securing it in a fixed medium (such as a drawing, sheet music, photograph, a videotape or a letter), the copyright holder is entitled to enforce his or her exclusive rights."
Uh, bepatient, what you have missed are 'intellectual property'. Steve Gaines as an employee of Bellevue Baptist church does not 'own' his words spoken in the pulpit.
But, of course, he would agrue different. The intellectual property rights is the fastest growing aspect of the law and the most complicated. The only thing I know aobut it is that people argue over it all the time in this age of technology and knowledge workers.
"A call to ministry is a call to be trained. Shepherds of the sheep of the Lord Jesus should be trained. Imagine being operated on by someone with no medical training.... There was a time when the seminaries were polluted with liberal thought and the result was that some ministerial students who were sent to seminary had a very negative experience. Not so today."
I agree with this statement...on the basis that I believe that a gospel minister should be as well prepared to minister the gospel, and give a cogent defense of the faith, as possible. Formal training is now available in a wide variety of ways..from campus to extension and internet..so, though some ministers in past generations were unable to obtain that education due to geography, etc. such is not the case today. One exception that I can think of is CH Spurgeon who had no formal theological training, however he spent countless hours studying the Puritan divines before he ever even came to Christ. It is well to note however, that he did understand the value of formal training, and in the time of his ministry began a Pastor's College.
bepatient, I forgot to mention about what you posted...How can you protect something by copyright? You put it on paper or a disc and mail it to yourself. The poor man's copyright. Can Steve Gaines do that with any words he says in the churches pulpit?
BTW: Are you going to police the recordings? You sure sound like you are!
"The copyright holder would be the person speaking. "
Not true! Ask any corporation!!! I wish it were true I would be rich!!!
BTW: I copied your words above that you own. Do you own them or does the blog owner own them or does blogger own them?
Esther,
Thank you for your sweet message yesterday. I appreciate you.
Dee
Ace,
I addressed my question specifically to the Heavy Hitter.
I'm not sure if he/she is CBT but I'm fairly sure you've spent as much time in law school as I have.
I do know however that it is NOT against the law to bring a recording device into a church service and record it.
If someone's not disrupting the service while recording, the church could be taken to court for being removed by any bellevue bouncer.
sickofthelies said:
Is BBC above the law when responding to the Tenn. law which REQUIRES that they make the membership list available to ANY member?
Just curious.
Piglet says:
Apparently BBC leaders are above the law. When asked about the statute and why the documents were not being released to the members, Coombs responded "I don't care about the law."
He must be more afraid of Steve Gaines than he is law enforcement.
ACe said....
The church is allowing the media to connect to the IMAG screens. Basicaly, whatever is on the big screens, the media is getting. If they allow this, you cry and complain...if they don't, you cry and complain. You will never be satisfied.
Response to ACE,
Ok Ace, maybe your right. What about youreslf and our church? You cant have it both way. Why is the church leadership changing their minds now and allowing the media in??.. I'll bet you give another straw man's argument here.
Response to Ace....
Ace, why is the church allowing this?
You tell members not to record but you allow the media. It appears you have unbalanced scales or more plain a double standard...Interesting but not surprising.
Ace, Is this censorship???
Who decides this?
What does our 1 page bylaws say reguarding this?
Are the current bylaws legal?
If not why?
When will we make changes to our bylaws?
Ace, I'll bet you didn't get much attention in high school?
allforgrace-
Spurgeon and Moody are great examples of exceptions to the rule, but you are right- they both started colleges to make sure those who followed them had the opportunity for training.
allofgrace said...
I believe to hold the title of pastor or reverend you'd have to be ordained, though not necessarily seminary trained. Unless I'm mistaken, one who feels a call into gospel ministry normally goes to his home church and makes such announcement..then the ordained men of that local body examine him, and either confirm his calling or not. If confirmed the local body has authority to ordain him...to my limited knowledge anyhow...anyone is welcome to correct what I've said.
I would like to add to this...that of the times I've seen this done, it was always before an assembly of the congregation, accompanied by the laying on of hands of the ordained men, and prayer...both deacons and those called to gospel ministry.
As printed in bellevuetoday;
As a courtesy to nearby worshippers, please REFRAIN from still photography, or making video and audio recordings of the worship service. Thank you.
The request of the church mentions no violation of law or copywright, only that courtesy be extended to other worshippers. There are no laws being broken otherwise why would we have not had several thousand people arrested over the years.
Give me a break! It further damages the credibility of those that support this administration to propogate such foolishness.
ez,
My understanding is, that if an office holder no longer meets the Biblical requirements of the office, he must step down or be removed.
There are some on this board that want to convince you that it is a 'sin' to record the meeting because they have some rules they want to all of a sudden enforce. Nice try with the verses out of context.
Some are trying to convince you that you do not need to record because the media is going to be there. Since I have some experience with this let me tell you how that works. All the media cares about is getting a 10 second soundbite. Once they think they have that, they are done. Then they go back and edit everything else out. It is doubtful they would give you a copy of anything they have.
Don't fall for either ridiculous arguement. And if Bellevue tries to force you not to tape, they are in the ones that would look bad. Does anyone in the world think a Jury would buy that? They can argue protection of the abused but they do not have to use names and we all know it.
It makes me sick to see how people will abuse the scriptures for personal gain.
But, I will tell you this, if there is one scripture the mega leaders know and promote it is the 'submit to authority' one. It is disgusting because they sure did conveniently forget 1 Corinthians 5!
tim,
This was debated at length about 3 hours ago. As usual, you are DEAD ON CORRECT!!!!!!
lindon,
You also are correct.
Still the most important issue here would be the safety & nurturing of our children by following God's Word ...
but as a side note:
BBC has already let the media in...
Coombs ANNOUNCED TO THE MEDIA on several TV stations as well as to the Commercial Appeal BEFORE ANNOUNCING IT TO THE BBC FAMILY the firing of PW!!
whats up with that?
Sister Maybejustmaybe...
To God be the glory! I have prayed the beautiful, full prayer that the Lord Himself has given you to put up here for us all to see and hear and agree in with other brothers and sisters.
And now I shout "AMEN!"
Dee
allofgrace said:
ez,
My understanding is, that if an office holder no longer meets the Biblical requirements of the office, he must step down or be removed.
In the Bible, when that doesn't happen God has been known to remove the 'office'.
God doesn't remove the office, the office itself is ordained by God..the one holding the office however....
Well, perhaps the office isn't permanently removed but it can certainly take a turn for the worse. Ask Phannias ben Samuel, the High Priest of the temple in 70 A.D.
Post a Comment