Everyone, please read the 9:05 a.m. and 9:33 a.m. posts by "charlie fox" and "imaresistor" and consider their advice!
Thanks to "bereans" for this poll suggestion.
About Me
- New BBC Open Forum
- This forum was created to provide a place where those who are seriously concerned about the issues facing Bellevue Baptist Church and the SBC can come to comment and exchange ideas. Anonymous comments are welcome, but it is respectfully requested that instead of choosing the "Anonymous" option those who want to post comments without logging in select a unique screen name. This lets everyone tell the difference between one anon and another without revealing any personal information. Under the box where you compose your comment where it says "Choose an identity," just check "Name/URL" and type in the screen name of your choice. You can leave the URL field blank. It would be helpful if you'd use the same screen name for any subsequent comments. This makes reading and following discussions easier, helps avoid confusion, and doesn't result in one person being credited for writing something s/he didn't. Comments by posters whose only purpose is to disrupt (i.e. trolls) will be subject to deletion. Your cooperation will be appreciated.
593 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 593 Newer› Newest»ace said...
Piglet,
We really don't have time for gossip or inaccurate information so we try to verify as much as we possibly can.
What? Thanks for the laugh. ;)
An open business meeting instead of an informational meeting would be helpful, don't you think?
If you people would be civil during the meeting and behave, then I am for this. However, if you act all immature on this blog, what is going to stop you from acting all babyish at the meeting too? I think there would be chaos at a meeting such as this, allowing EVERYONE to talk that ones to....but if the people who go can behave themselves, then I'm all for it.
9:35 PM, January 16, 2007
You have got to be kidding Ace!!! What do you mean "you people". You have a lot of gall coming here to blast brothers and sisters with that kind of rude and arrogant statement, especially after we have had to sit thru the numerous spin cycles from the pulpit, mealy mouth music, and standing ovations from the mindless masses. You owe us an apology. No one has asked you to come here, but this is one that is asking you to leave, and don't come back until you realize the sin that so easily besets you. Only then you can repent and apologize to your brothers and sisters for your behavior against them - and all for the favor of a tainted pastor and a position of power!
mrs. c
I've always contended that Steve is not all of our problem - not by a long shot.
So we agree. :)
I once heard a speaker tell a group of people that when someone wants to antagonize us they find out what our hot buttons are and then they push them.
Folks we need to cover our hot buttons. This is difficult but you can do it.
I remember an incident in which a person was trying to start an argument with me. This person had been very successful in the past of getting me to argue back.
After I heard this speaker I made up my mind that the next time this person tried to start an argument with me I would protect my buttons with all my strength.
A few months later I had my chance to test my newfound resolve. When this person accused me of something that they knew I had not done and then proceeded to talk for 10-15 minutes lambasting me. I just sat motionless without nodding my head or uttering a sound. After about 15 minutes the person said I've got to go and that was about 10 years ago. It hasn't happened since.
If we don't respond to the trolls they will get tired of posting thier
accusations.
YOU CANNOT FIGHT WITHOUT SOMEONE TO FIGHT WITH. Not screaming just for emphasis.
Please guys on both sides remember Jesus said be angry and sin not.
Ace
Everyone else seems to understand me...
Maybe that's the problem with you and our leadership - no understanding of common sense
Piglet,
Everyone else seems to understand me...
Good for them...
Maybe that's the problem with you and our leadership - no understanding of common sense
Thanks for you opinion
p.s. - Mrs. C, quit being a drama queen.
We could make this blog a much nicer place if we could refrain from feeding the trolls. I am speaking to myself as much as anyone else.
It is actually a very peaceful place when we ignore certain people who just want to disrupt.
We need to remember that we have the Spirit in us and that we grieve the Spirit when we allow the flesh to get the best of us.
I know how hard it is to ignore someone who posts something so rediculous as to almost be funny. It would be funny if this weren't so serious.
Folks just remember this is not nearly as painful as Jesus suffered for each of us.
Let's try to show love in each post and if we can't would it not be better to delete it?
more to follow....
Where'd the doctor go? I thought he was going to save the day.
Hey, and have a sense of humor; it takes the edge off.
Ace
Ace
Let's make this easier.
Fill in the blank:
Ace
Was my multiple choice fill in the blank too difficult for you?
Here it is again:
For a SS teacher to lie to their class is __________________.
Necessary
Commanded by Steve Gaines
A sin
A mistake, we all make mistakes
Was my multiple choice fill in the blank too difficult for you?
I think you understand me. The questions are just hard to answer truthfully.
Ok, this feels odd but I'm going to have to say that I feel like Ace is right on target when he says that BBC is private property.
Let me tell you why.
Did anyone else try to drive down the road that runs to the left of the church and comes out on G'Town road at Christmas? If you did then you would have found yourself unable to because they physically blocked the road off. A security officer chased me down after I drove around the blockade unaware that on the otherside of a road I thought was public property was another blockade. So, he's right on that point. Now as to who the rightful owners of BBC are that has to be obvious the documented membership are the owners and stewards of the church. I felt like telling that security guard let me pass I'm a member of this church but I didn't and drove off and took the long way to my destination.
As for Mr. Haywood's attempt to record the service. Again dispite my regular stand against what has taken place in the administration I'll have to stand on the opposite side of this issue. We all should be able to agree that he wasn't in that service with the right heart. I've often said I can't attend the service because my heart isn't in the right place i.e. fault finding etc. He was there to record something that we all know happens recorded proof wasn't necessary. If you give it some hard thought you'll realize that. Now had he said he was trying to record the statement that some of us thought was going to be made that morning I might have a different opinion of that. But as has been stated clearly that's not what he was after. He was after "reaction" to that statement.
As to a comment made earlier about Jesus not being welcomed in BBC. Wow can I say a friend of mine at work and I had a conversation TODAY about that very subject. He relayed a story to me about just why he left the SBC. He had attended a SBC church for quite a while and was excited and ready to be a part of the church. He stayed after a service and talked to the pastor about how he could be involved and be used by the church. The pastor asked him one question and told him one thing. Have you been baptized? He said yes I was baptized by immersion in another church. To which the pastor said well you have to be baptized again. Then he told him to be used by this church you must be a member of this church. To which my friend replied "I guess Jesus Christ wouldn't be able to be of much use to this church" and then left. Most will see the point here. Just very interesting that we'd have that conversation and I'd see a comment about it tonight on the blog.
As for Ace. I think many of you really attack Ace far to quickly and don't give some of Ace's statements real thought. Granted once attacked things do deteriorate a bit but remember it takes two to tango. We can all do better in how we relate to one another on this blog.
integritycounts,
I agree that there are those that come here to be argumentive. However, if they are simply ignored it will give credibility to their statements to onlookers. Especially those that may have decided to look and see what all the hoopla is about for the first time.
It would be much better to address unfounded accusations with a brief statement of facts and move on. It does little good to engage in arguments with them.
Of course there are a few who choose to come here a wreak havoc that should be ashamed of their behavior. Unfortunately, since they reside in anonymity they feel that they have the freedom to behave poorly.
It would be wise on their part to consider how they would feel if there were a group of 4-5 people who decided to return the favor.
I would like to return to an opinion that I stated earlier today concerning the root problem at Bellevue.
In a single word, it is
CORRUPTION.
Ju,
That has got to be the best post yet so far today....thank you for posting it!
David I could be wrong but I don't think they do. I was baptized in the Presbyterian church before becoming a member at BBC and I had to go through BBCs believer baptism. I didn't see anything wrong with it since I was changing denominations but if I were not to join another church and be asked again to do believers baptism it might cause me some concern.
Well,there you have it,folks. Ace can't answer a simple question with an obvious answer.
He MUST have been on the Communications Committee! :)
So... which one of you is Trena?
Piglet,
For anyone to intentionally knowingly lie to anyone under their authority such as a teacher is plainly a Sin. My question to you would be if Jesus himself were to ask you right now if you know 100% without a shadow of a doubt that that man lied intentionally could you answer yes? I know I couldn't and I dare wouldn't because I don't know that man's mind. There are a number of reasons why he might have said that not the least of which might be that he was misled as well.
ju,
I have a question why would anyone say anything in church that they would not want recorded? I think I would want it recorded for accuuracy. The point I was trying to make to ace, was there are 5 to 6 thousand people as a witness. What difference did it make, if it was recorded. It sounded like the same strong arm tactic they tried to use on Mark Sharpe. JMO.
david s,
Thank you so much for the response. I searched for a solution with all that I had and it would not come to me.
It is really quite that simple isn't it.
The problem is CORRUPTION.
The answer is REPENTANCE.
This is nothing new either. It has been the same problem from the days of Noah and the solution has always been the same.
To elaborate on Repentance;
I. Repentance requires the recognition of sin.
II. Repentance requires the confession of sin.
a. Confession is speaking the same as God concerning sin.
b. Confession is acknowledging sin to all affected by that sin.
c. Confession is abandoing all rational for sin.
III. Repentance requires the removal of sin from our lives.
IV. Repentance requires the acceptance of the consequences for sin.
Concerned,
I don't disagree with you. I didn't comment on that aspect of the posts today. I don't know the rules don't know if there was a rule or is a rule or if somebody made up a rule. But it's clear that in the past members have been allowed to film events the church put on. It wasn't a very smart move on the church's part to do what they did to him but my point was he shouldn't have been there in the first place trying to film anything unless he was trying to gather pertinent information that was likely to be excluded from the normal recording of the service such as another apology by SG not just looking for "reaction" to that statement that he could spin as he felt necessary.
BTW
Looks like Jim has posted a response to some of the accusations that Ace put forth to him.
ju,
Thanks for answering wihtout hostility.
I understood that Jim got word of a rumor that there would be some kind of announcement afer the service and that was what he wanted to record.
Thanks again and God bless,
God bless you and yours Concerned. Have a good evening. I think my wife is going to come out here and snatch me up soon if I don't go to bed. So goodnight everyone and remember it takes at least to two people with opposing views to have an argument. Just try not to belittle or berate someone because of those differing views.
Ju
This man is a deacon officer and was privy to all the information that I have been. I saw him at atleast one of the CC meetings (where I'm not even sure the music was mentioned).
I'm not sure there is another conclusion to draw.
My husband and I consider him a friend as well as our teacher. We love him very much. It has been a great dissappointment to hear him put a spin to things in class.
We spoke up one Sunday on an issue he was spinning and some other class members followed us after class to ask questions. We regretted having to tell them that they were being mislead.
This is the current Bellevue.
Sorry. I wish I weren't so sure.
"I understood that Jim got word of a rumor that there would be some kind of announcement afer the service and that was what he wanted to record. "
Not to you personally, concerned, just stealing your post for reference- but I thought no one around here dealt in rumors?
ace,
I do not know much about poker either.
What you called silly and unimportant was to show you how rediculous it is to try to stop someone from taping remarks or anything else in church. When you have that many people to witness what was said. It looks like to me that SG or anyone else would want it recorded for accuracy.
Do you have children?
Do you pray for discernment?
I am not picking on you. I am very, very new at this blog stuff.
You strike me as being very intelligent. Would you consider taking off the boxing gloves and try to see things from a different point of veiw? There is a wise saying " walk a mile another ones shoes, and see if it still looks the same?"
I have prayed and cried and prayed some more over our dear BBC. My sense of discernment tell me there is somethin terribly wrong. But God as my witness, I know he has gone before us to help us and to teach us what we need to learn from all of this.
For I know that all things work together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to his purpose.
God bess as brother in Christ
I tried to post this earlier and soething happened. anyway, God bless, sleep tight.
I was detained early this evening. I regret I was able to join you as planned.
Random thoughts:
The leadership is playing a game of high stakes hotbox. If they do what is right and fire PW, then everyone will want to know what changed since June. Why didn’t Brother Steve do that in the first place? After all, the right course of action was obvious. They can say he didn’t know all the facts in June and does now. The problem with that is it is untrue. He certainly knows more today. He knew all he needed to know to make the right decision in June.
They know if they chose to keep PW they will be violating the very Scripture they proclaim (again). Yet, they can control PW as long as he is on staff, so this option has a certain appeal. They have to consider the consequences if he were to come back and then victimize a child. It would sink them and likely the church.
If PW is retained more truth will come out. The whole story will start pouring out because many are ready to start talking.
If they fire PW he will not be able to hide behind the church’s legal counsel. If he cooperated with the authorities and tells them he confessed in June, SG and JF might be looking at criminal charges.
All divorced men at Bellevue must demand deacon eligibility, particularly if your divorce happened seventeen years ago or more. It’s under the blood.
Questions to ask:
Why did Brother Steve not fire PW in June?
Did Brother Steve hire a minister at GFBC who had been driven from the ministry for adultery?
Did Brother Steve fire ministers at West Jackson for divorcing their wives?
Does SG accept the Bible’s authority? Does Brother Steve know, understand, and accept the teaching found in 1st Timothy concerning qualifications for minitry? If yes, what explains his decisions? What motivation might he have had to go against his conscience and Scripture at both Bellevue and GFBC?
I will point out for Ace that the sermons are all recorded for posterity and sharing. There was no need for him to tape it for accuracy
My post should have said that I was *not* able to join you.
I'm new to this blogging thing.
bepatient,
During the past few months the church has from time to time stopped those recorders early. You hear all the sermon. You do not necessarily hear the apologies and statements after the service. There is a huge need to record everything happening in our services. Tapes that have not been revised are valuable.
Father in Heaven,
Help us as we begin to look at moving to a new format in a way that honors you. Help us to consider if this (online) "ministry" (AOG an WTB's word) is organized in a biblical way. If it costs money to move to the new format, even if it is just a sinlge penny, help us to handle financial matters in a way that honors you. If it requires giving up some individual privacy like i.p. addresses to any of the moderator(s), help us to consider the pluses and minuses. If it requires a little getting used to a format like baptistlife.com "SBC News and Trends" section help us to practice and see if that is the kind of change we want to make as a group. If we want to consider whether this group needs to have a leadership whose user names are pubicly known for accountability purposes, help us to consider that. Help us to seek your face with the intentional public study of your Word. Help us to turn to you and fall to our knees.
In Jesus's name,
AMEN.
Day 17: Exodus 1-3
American English translation ("NIV")
King James
Please pray a Great Commission prayer for today's nation of the day: Barbados
Trollcates said...
Well Aaron,
I find the Christian (you know I'm not one, I'll assume) refugees from BBC, taking an action of their own accord--being stripped and shamed of a legitimate recourse within the church body--quite refreshing. At least they're not just a bunch of do-gooders and hand-claspers.
I know evangelicals, grew up in the Southern Baptist church, even studied for a short time to be a minister, but since leaving, I haven't looked back.
I don't really relate to them anymore, as they are everywhere, and it's like I'm on a different page altogether. The first attribute that I could not muster anymore and had to discard was the so-called offense of the gospels, its exclusivity. It all unraveled from there.
I find most American evengelicals to be a little arrogant and over-confident and religion is just extra cache in their upwardly-mobile lives. All the while, intolerant, zenophobic and acting persecuted and endangered by all the things they fear, notwithstanding the fact that there's a mega-church on every corner.
Do any of the sycophants think that the Sharp fellow, Beth, any of the BBC people, on here or elsewhere, who stand for accountability and presume a stake in the its future, are better off for speaking out?
These are real people disrupting their real lives for their church because they believe it is right. They value the light of truth over unity at any cost. They care more for the people more than the syndicate. They are fearless. It's nice to know a christian(besides my dear mom, of course) that's not a blowhard.
Now, that's your witness, sir. Straight from Midtown (no pun intended).
5:21 PM, January 16, 2007
Just reading between the lines...
You dropped out of Mid-America because you had a "Billy Graham moment?"
That is you stopped believing in the "so-called offense of the gospels, its exclusivity. It all unraveled from there?"
Now that you know what "elect" means, perhaps you need to wonder if you've been a "Jonah?" Perhaps it's time to get back on the road to "Nineva?" Perhaps it is a Buddhist country? Perhaps that road is the "information hiway." Perhaps you will take me with you?
I've been looking at a Buddhist website, Sangha-something-or-other(?). Would you be my "interpreter" and let's go over there and you can help me with your knowledge of the Buddhist religion?
I'd like to propose to them a parallel study of the Bible side-by-side with "whatever it is" they call *their* Bible (what is the name of *that* book, anyway?)
Thanks,
Joseph
Bloggers,
ACE posts for one purpose and one purpose only. ACE's sole purpose is to be antagonistic. As long as ya'll waste your precious time and talent feeding ACE, ACE will continue to play that game. If you ignore ACE, then ACE will soon go away. Ya'll need to FOCUS, FOCUS, FOCUS on the problems at BBC and quit playing into the TROLL's hands by playing their game. I know that it is hard to resist taking the BAIT, but you must RESIST THE TEMPTATION.
Charlie Fox said...
"Bloggers, ACE posts for one purpose and one purpose only. ACE's sole purpose is to be antagonistic. As long as ya'll waste your precious time and talent feeding ACE, ACE will continue to play that game. If you ignore ACE, then ACE will soon go away. Ya'll need to FOCUS, FOCUS, FOCUS on the problems at BBC and quit playing into the TROLL's hands by playing their game. I know that it is hard to resist taking the BAIT, but you must RESIST THE TEMPTATION."
EXACTLY RIGHT!!! AMEN & AMEN!!!
CHARLIE FOX IS RIGHT!!! PLEASE DROP THE DIALOGUE WITH THESE ANTAGONISTS AND FOCUS ON THE SERIOUSNESS OF WHAT IS AT HAND WITH THE CHURCH. WHAT THESE ANTAGONISTS ARE DOING IS BRINGING OUT THE WORST IN YOU AND ARE ALSO DOING DAMAGE TO YOUR WITNESS AND YOUR CREDIBILITY. ALL OF YOU WHO ARE STANDING FOR CHRIST WHO ARE ON THIS BLOG AS A RESULT OF THE SATANIC MOVES GOING ON AT BELLEVUE AND OTHER CHURCHES LIKE IT ARE TO BE COMMENDED FOR HAVING THE BRAVERY TO STAND FOR WHAT IS RIGHT...FOR TRUTH. PLEASE STOP LETTING THESE PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING WELL IN ANTAGONIZING YOU HAVE THEIR WAY WITH YOU. JUST DO NOT RESPOND TO THEM AT ALL...TOTALLY IGNORE THEIR POSTS. YOU ARE ALL WONDERFUL PEOPLE...CONTINUE TO WEAR THE ARMOUR OF GOD AND FOCUS ON HIM. YOU MAY ALL BE IN FOR SOME VERY ROUGH DAYS AHEAD...PRAY AND BE IN ONE ACCORD. YOU ARE ALL WONDERFUL PEOPLE.
9:05 AM, January 17, 2007
Still looking for truth...
can anyone help me with this??
I realize I am not a frequent poster
but I am seeking truth
and would like to ask again since no one noticed earlier...
I am very concerned about PW possibly being on BBC Campus..
I want to think this is impossible....
www.JesusDotCalm said...
Greetings,
I have not posted many times.
As I have stated before I have been concerned with the lack of TRUTH from BBC admin/pulpit for well over a year now.
First, I would like to say thank you once again to David Brown...
Second, I have read on a post from a few days ago that PW was on the BBC campus during the time SG stated he would not be allowed on campus.
Third, I have heard PW has even been in his office at BBC during this time as well.
I hope and pray the authorities have been notified of this!!!
Has anyone else heard of this happening?
Thank you for this place to share as a remnant of brothers and sisters in Christ. It is a blessing to know we have a place to further His Kingdom and protect His sheep.
Even so Come LORD JESUS.
10:49 AM, January 16, 2007
Thank you David Brown for all you do...I keep you in my prayers...
May God give us all wisdom and strength.
5:50 PM, January 16, 2007
Jesusdotcalm,
I would have to say given you've posted that question at least 2-3 times now that nobody can corroborate what you've heard.
gug wrote: "Billie Tapp sent me an e-mail about why I shouldn't be a Calvinist."
Well? The suspense is killing me. Are you still a "C"?
Jesusdotcalm,
I've also been told he was there. However, if he was there, I'm certain there is an innocent explanation. Sensitive meeting(s) took place last week, so I wouldn't assign any nefarious meaning to his presence. PW is not going about his daily routine at Bellevue right now. We would know it if he was.
Below is my response to last night's showing of "Hand of God." It was shown on WKNO and will be back on again. Please check their site for additional information but DO NOT miss viewing this story of yet another victim.
Dear Andrew: Let me try to respond. I saw your inquiry last night but I was not able to type. It was hard to type crying as much as I was. I am not ashamed to admit that I am given to moments crying. It does help heal. This story was all so real too me. So much of what he documented, happened in my case. I could have written his script.
One thing of note. Many, many victims' lives are just like his. I could be a carbon copy.
As I said in an earlier post, we are ALL guilty of sin, and even moral failures. But this matter is a criminal matter and that is the difference. Bottom line. And it is a criminal matter to NOT report it. Ignorance, being a clergy member, etc are not valid or legal excuses.
I am still broken up and wounded by viewing this story. If anyone missed it please check with WKNO. It is going to be aired again. Did anyone notice how much it affected his family and friends? See there are more people harmed than just the victim.
Please be in prayer for us. God bless you.
satan comes in many forms, including a blogger. Be shrewd in dealing with other bloggers. If you feel angered, annoyed, bothered or hostile toward another blogger you need to stop and ask yourself why. It may be the intimidation your feeling is designed to injure you witness. satanic cults love blogs like this where they can get on and post as a "concerned believer" and draw an unsuspecting christian into a heated war of words.
Be shrewd brothers/sisters.
In Christ,
Tony
Lindon said...
gug wrote: "Billie Tapp sent me an e-mail about why I shouldn't be a Calvinist."
Well? The suspense is killing me. Are you still a "C"?
I am a C...
I am a C-h...
I am a C-h-r-i-s-t-i-a-n...
For I have C-h-r-i-s-t in my h-e-a-r-t,
And I will l-i-v-e e-t-e-r-n-a-l-l-y...
Come on, let's all sing together!
--Mike
David Brown said...
"Below is my response to last night's showing of "Hand of God." It was shown on WKNO and will be back on again. Please check their site for additional information but DO NOT miss viewing this story of yet another victim."
Hello David,
I appreciate all you do so very much for the cause of Christ.
A friend sent me the website address for this program that aired last evening. I haven't seen it yet but have every intention of doing so. If I am not mistaken, you can go view it from the website. It is:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/handofgod/
May God bless you as you continue in His lead.
Ima
Thank you ju & west tn...
I just am concerned for the children and other victims...
David the program was too painful for me to finish watching...I'll try again the next showing.
After giving thought to the possibility of "meetings" on BBC campus...
Would it not be better to have the "meetings" off campus??
What if a victim of molestation or a victim of PW counseling or a victim hurting from all of the cover-up or a family member of one of the above or someone who has compassion for anyone hurting happened to see PW at BBC???
And if SG and others said PW will not be on BBC Campus should that not mean...PW Will Not Be On BBC Campus???
Still concerned.
www.jesusdotcalm wrote:
"I am very concerned about PW possibly being on BBC Campus..
I want to think this is impossible...."
It's my understanding, from someone who says s/he saw him there last Wednesday night that he was at least in the office area of the church that evening. Also, I believe he may have been at a meeting there the following evening.
I agree that if this is indeed true that "they" appear to be violating the conditions they set for their "investigation."
NASS
That is interesting that PW was seen on the campus. Back in 2002 one of the deacons at the FBC Jacksonville church (he was a very prominent builder in Jacksonville) was accused of molestation of a teenage boy (not on church property, not a church member) and he was prosecuted and did time in jail. Much to the surprise of a small number of members, one of the staff members brought this molester back onto the church property to tour the new Children's Building during a church function, in full view of everyone. At the time those who were at this function and saw him there with this staff member thought it extremely strange to say the least. So I guess its just another example of the mega's treating their sheep with disdain.
A thought for the Day..
He is the First and Last,
The Beginning and the End!
He is the keeper of Creation and the Creator of all!
He is the Architect of the universe and the Manager of all times.
He always was, He always is, and He always will be ...
unmoved, Unchanged, Undefeated, and never Undone!
He was bruised and brought healing!
He was pierced and eased pain!
He was persecuted and brought freedom!
He was dead and brought life!
He is risen and brings power!
He reigns and brings Peace!
The world can't understand him,
The armies can't defeat Him,
The schools can't explain Him, and The leaders can't ignore Him.
Herod couldn't kill Him, The Pharisees couldn't confuse Him, and The people couldn't hold Him!
Nero couldn't crush Him, Hitler couldn't silence Him,
The New Age can't replace Him, and "Oprah" can't explain Him away!
He is light, love, longevity, and Lord.
He is goodness, Kindness, Gentleness, and God.
He is Holy, Righteous, mighty, powerful, and pure.
His ways are right,
His word is eternal,
His will is unchanging, and His mind is on me.
He is my Savior,
He is my guide, and He is my peace!
He is my Joy,
He is my comfort,
He is my Lord, and He rules my life!
I serve Him because His bond is love,
His burden is light, and His goal for me is abundant life.
I follow Him because He is the wisdom of the wise,
the power of the powerful,
the ancient of days, the ruler of rulers, the leader of leaders, the overseer of the overcomers, and is to come. And if that seems impressive to you, try this for size.
His goal is a relationship with ME!
He will never leave me,
never forsake me,
never mislead me,
never forget me,
never overlook me and
never cancel my appointment in His appointment book!
When I fall, He lifts me up!
When I fail, He forgives!
When I am weak, He is strong!
When I am lost, He is the way!
When I am afraid, He is my courage!
When I stumble, He steadies me!
When I am hurt, He heals me!
When I am broken, He mends me!
When I am blind, He leads me!
When I am hungry, He feeds me!
When I face trials, He is with me!
When I face persecution, He shields me!
When I face problems, He comforts me!
When I face loss, He provides for me!
When I face Death, He carries me Home!
He is everything for everybody everywhere, every time, and every way.
He is God, He is faithful. I am His, and He is mine!
My Father in heaven can whip the father of this world.
So, if you're wondering why I feel so secure, understand this...
He said it and that settles it.
God is in control, I am on His side,
and that means all is well with my soul.
Everyday is a blessing for GOD Is!
Have a great Day and Include Jesus.
I Had a Dream
Accusation Summary
Steve Gaines told Mark Dougharty he had a dream. He told this story with specific details of sorcery and demon possession. His story was recounted to David Smith and Bryson McQuiston. Those men relayed the story to Phil Weatherwax. Men were dispatched to deal with Mr. Kelly—“Amen Kelly.”
When Mark Sharpe was told of this story it raised serious questions in his mind and rightfully so. He began to request a meeting with the pastor, Mark Dougharty, David Smith, Bryson McQuiston, and Phil Weatherwax. The leadership refused to hold such a meeting.
Analysis
The most obvious concern is if this story is true, the pastor said he had this dream and that he assigned meaning to it and took action accordingly. God does not in this age speak to men through dreams, visions or any direct communication apart from the Word of God. It is through the ministry of the Holy Spirit in illuminating God's word that believers are given understanding and direction for their lives. God's revelation is complete as contained in the sixty six books of the Bible. That means he does not have further things to reveal to nations or individuals that are not in the Bible. Further, the Bible is all sufficient in directing a person to finding and carrying out the will of God for their lives, without the need of a dream, vision or special communication from God in that manner. (At the end of this writing there is a short piece from John MacArthur on dreams.)
If Steve Gaines did not have the dream, then Mark Dougharty has lied repeatedly. He lied to David Smith and Bryson McQuiston and he allowed one of them to lie to Phil Weatherwax. If Steve did not have the dream, he absolutely knows Mark has lied and has done nothing about it. This is not a small lie; this was a major lie and an attack on the pastor. Please use your minds and think about the sequence of events, Bellevue. Mark Dougharty’s continued employment is strong evidence the dream story is true. If Mark made this up, he should have been fired immediately for such a vicious and slanderous attack on the pastor.
Mark Dougharty has since claimed he does not remember telling anyone about the dream, but “if they say I said it I must have said it.” (quote paraphrased) It does not get any more weasely than that.
Everyone should agree this entire scenario raises doubts about the beliefs, honesty, and mental fitness of some involved. Either the pastor said he had the dream or he didn’t.
There are other concerns connected to this story such as:
• The lack of concern for Mr. Kelly
• The pastor’s unwillingness to confront Mr. Kelly directly
• Bryan Miller’s apparent lie to hundreds in the December 3rd Communications Committee meeting regarding his conversation with Bryson McQuiston. He claimed Bryson’s concern was not with the dream. According to Deacon Chairman Miller (the ECS President) Brother Bryson’s only concern about this story was for Mr. Kelly. I believe Bryan “shaped” the truth for public consumption. Not only that, he rushed to the microphone to tell this falsehood. As Dr. Rogers said, “A half-truth is a whole lie.”
• The unwillingness of our leadership to gather all concerned parties in a room to discuss this matter and get to the bottom of it. Why would they not want to clear the pastor from such slander? This story has undermined Brother Steve as much as anything else. This story is what started the questioning by Mark Sharpe and others. If this is all a lie, why not gather everyone so the pastor can be cleared?
• The deacon body has collectively refused to get to the bottom of this. If they care about truth, they should force this matter to come to an honest conclusion. They should fear the Lord more than men. The truth will come out.
• The Bellevue staff has collectively refused to get to the bottom of this. If they care about truth, they should force this matter to come to an honest conclusion. They should fear the Lord more than men. The truth will come out.
Conclusion
Based on all the facts, the logical conclusion is as follows:
The Pastor had the dream and told Mark Dougharty about it. Mark in turn relayed the story to David Smith and Bryson McQuiston. Phil Weatherwax was later told the same story.
The pastor has since lied about this to the church body and he has dispatched representatives to lie about it. He placed Mark Dougharty in a position where he had to either tell the truth, which would have irreparably Steve’s credibility, or he could lie and damage his own credibility.
Sometimes the logical conclusion is false. If my conclusion is incorrect, then why not hold a meeting and get to the bottom of this? A simple denial by the pastor is insufficient. Brother Steve lied or a whole group of our staff have lied. Either way there must be consequences. How can we proclaim the truth of Scripture if our leaders are not truthful with us and with each other? We deserve to know the truth and we should demand it. This is not something that can be swept under the rug. I will remind the church of it until we get answers.
John MacArthur on dreams:
"It was not that unusual for God to reveal His plans in dreams to people in the past. Numbers 12:6 says that the Lord spoke to the prophets in visions and dreams. In Genesis 28:10-15 Jacob had a dream that promised him the land of Palestine. God spoke in dreams to Joseph (Gen. 37:5-10), Abimelech (Gen. 20:3), and Solomon (1 Kings 3:5-15). God revealed to Pharaoh in a dream that Egypt would experience seven years of plenty followed by seven years of famine (Gen. 41:1-8). Through a dream God indirectly provided encouragement to Gideon and his men (Judg. 7:13-15). God no longer speaks through dreams because He has completed His revelation. Hebrews 1:2 says He "hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son." But in former days, God chose to speak through dreams." [quoted from "The Forgotten Dream and the Unforgettable Daniel" (Daniel 2-1-30) ].
Now with that as a background I will attempt to answer your questions about dreams:
Does the Lord still use dreams today?
No, He uses His Word, with the Holy Spirit giving us an understanding of it.
What do our dreams mean today?
Nothing significant, nor anything that should ever cause us to make any decision based on them. They are best left alone and forgotten.
Is there a way to analyze our
dreams to gain spiritual growth?
Absolutely not. Dreams are not to ever be trusted as anything but random thoughts. We are to use the written and infallible Word for our spiritual growth.
Are we vulnerable to spiritual attack in our sleep?
No, but Satan would like to make some people think so, and if they do respond then he can really cause a lot of havoc. Just ignore your dreams. To try to figure out secret messages or meanings in dreams is like putting trust in Astrology and Palm Readers.
I believe I gave you the right answers, answers that would please Christ. The "world" likes to get all wrapped up in the significance of dreams, but the "world' has no clue of the source of truth, so they accept almost anything. We are not of the world, for Christ has taken us out of the world.
Re Copyright issues
I'm no lawyer (contrary to popular belief), so I can't say very much about copyright laws. If BBC says that they won't allow any recordings of what happens in the building, that's their right. But I do wonder why, when it is obvious that Mr Haywood had no intention of pirating BBC material, that BBC feels it must conceal what goes on within its walls.
This is what Mark Sharpe, Richard Emerson, Jim Haywood, and others have been decrying for months. Everything we're seeing, including the retaining of a child rapist on staff, flows from a lack of transparency, accountability, and congregational oversight.
I can understand very clearly why BBC would want to minimize the motivation others would have for pirating their materials. But, again, Mr Haywood was obviously not interested in pirating but in making information available to further accountability and transparency.
And this is the hang up to me. Why would a church that is handling things above board, with nothing to hide, with only integrity characterizing its actions, why would such a church keep information from its members or the public?
First Timothy notes that a pastor should be one whom the world, not just the church, considers blameless. Fulfilling that requirement is tricky when pastors won't let the world, not to mention church-members, know what's happening in the church's office or even its services.
I would urge BBC not only to allow recordings to be made of announcements in services but also duplicates to be made of all church documents not covered under mandatory confidentiality laws. Focus on the Family maintains an open-books policy which allows anyone to come in and examine their records. I urge BBC to rise at least to the level of integrity exercised by this non-profit organization. Surely as a church professing to honor God, we can do as good as the best 501(c)3 when it comes to transparency. Would anyone disagree?
Hi Josh,
When I consider all the documenting I saw during the Singing Christmas Tree I have wonder why they chose to enforce this copy right policy against Mr Haywood.
lwood
Thanks foryour 11:29 post!
What a blessing.
Doc Bellevue - excellent summary and logic. You laid it out as clearly as can be done. The obvious conclusion is SG blew it on that one, then when "found out" and asked to be accountable in regards to it, he changed his story. The same thing he did when the pictures of the "itty bitty fence" were posted. The poor guy lies and gets exposed in front of the whole congregation. Lucky for him his congregation does not care and is quick to dismiss this kind of stuff. We are a gullible people when we like our leaders. Even impeached Bill Clinton was re-elected. By the way, it is not just the sheep that look the other way, Tim Ellsworth and MAC BRUNSON also choose to ignore the facts since they are promoting him as a keynote speaker at their respective conferences. And apparently, no one in those cities care either. Both Bill Clinton and SG could have saved everyone a lot of time and stress and arguing by just saying, "yeah, I did what I am accused of. So what?" I guess they didn't realize those that support them would continue supporting them NO MATTER WHAT they did. Poor Bill and Poor SG, both now living like kings with huge numbers of supporters even after being exposed.
Thank you NASS for answering my post and for your concerns about PW being seen on BBC Campus..
NASS said...
It's my understanding, from someone who says s/he saw him there last Wednesday night that he was at least in the office area of the church that evening. Also, I believe he may have been at a meeting there the following evening.
I agree that if this is indeed true that "they" appear to be violating the conditions they set for their "investigation."
My reply..
MY first concern is
for all the victims and their life long wounds...
My second concern is
when the admin/pastor says something (like PW will not be on BBC Campus) they should be telling the truth and keep their word.
In my opinion, there is no excuse for PW to be on BBC Campus during his investigation!
If he was on campus someone needs to be held accountable!
May God give us His Wisdom and Strength,
Still Concerned.
friendinjax - that is really scary! I wonder how long of a jail term that molestor received and more importantly, has anyone warned the pastor and congregation of where he attends now? Who knows, he may be teaching in the children's sunday school at his new church. But you said he was a prominent builder, so his buddies, like that staff member, won't want to upset him. The more we know, the sicker it all gets!
doc bellevue
Your post about the dream issue really puts everything in perspective.
No matter what the lie is about,a lie is a lie.
Somebody lied.
Who is more likely to want the issue dropped? The one who lied or the one who didn't.....hmm..
Man! Everybody is so on target today. KEEP IT UP, please!
Dee
I would like to ask anyone with information about PW having possibly been on BBC Campus since we were told he would not be to inform:
Kevin Rardin is the Shelby County Assistant District Attorney and can be reached at 901-888-4300 or 901-545-5935.
Larry Griffin is with the regional office of the State of Tennessee Department of Child Protective Services (DCS) and can be reached at 901-258-0268.
I pray these men will not mind me posting their names and phone numbers and that they will be able to help our church.
Here we go folks...
A New Beginning in Forgiveness
lindon,
"Well? The suspense is killing me. Are you still a "C"?"
Haha well so far she hasn't responded to my initial reply... when I get more I'll post on my blog
docbellevue,
Your insight into the dream is very good. I agree the Amen Kelley issue is too big to ignore. From the 1st time ever heard, the story has never made sense. If it didn't happen, Mark Dougharty should have been punished or fired for slandering the pastor. If it did happen, there are critical questions (I have many) that have to be answered.
The puzzling part is the refusal of Steve Gaines to assemble Mark Dougharty, Bryson McQuiston, David Smith, Mark Sharpe and witnesses to get to the bottom of it. Someone or someone's are lying which can't be ignored. If someone accused me of doing something I didn't do, I'd be getting to the truth quickly to clear my name.
Mark Sharpe says Mark Dougharty confirmed the pastor said he had a dream and that he told David Smith and Bryson McQuiston about the dream. Mark Dougharty dispatched David first and then Bryson to silence Mr. Kelly. In the deacon's meeting, Mark Dougharty said he didn't remember but "if people say I said it, then I must have said it." This statement DOES NOT MAKE SENSE. Why would the deacons not challenge this? Does anyone care to know the truth?
A theory exists that perhaps it was not Steve Gaines that had the dream but Donna Gaines.
Before anyone crucifies me on this theory, it was Donna Gaines that said in a Women's Bible Study that while in Gardendale, she had a "vision" or "word" while in her quiet time one morning about a minister on staff at Gardendale. In this vision, the staff member was against her husband. As it turned out, they found out within several weeks he was questioning Steve and he was dismissed.
If Donna had the dream, Steve could have honestly said, "I never had a dream". It would have been Donna that had it and not him.
There's another "vision" story involving the pastor. He's told some staff about an experience while in the Holy Land. In this story, while at the Garden of Gethsemane, he wants to cross over a roped off area and pray at the rock. With the rock out of reach because of the security barrier, he saw someone dressed like a monk in black, motioning for him to step over the barrier and come to the rock to pray. An unknown amount of time praying at the rock passes before a guard tells him to get back. Steve replied "the monk said it was ok" and the guard replied there is no monk and never has been, get back.
If these incidents occured, they need further explanation. If they never happened, why have they been told?
There is sin in the camp Bellevue. Are we going to press onward to deal with the truth or not? How can we proclaim the truth from the pulpit if we are not willing to confront this?
For anyone upset about this search for the truth, none of this would be happening if it hadn't been caused by Steve Gaines himself.
Nobody could make this stuff up. It's too bizare to make up.
"Never Put your faith in Men" said that racism was a problem. Here is the first case of racism in the Bible. Three separate tables are set:
Genesis 43:32 (King James Version)
32And they set on for him by himself, and for them [the Hebrews] by themselves, and for the Egyptians, which did eat with him, by themselves: because the Egyptians might not eat bread with the Hebrews; for that is an abomination unto the Egyptians.
Remember: the Egyptians were the bad guys in this verse, so this is **not** an endorsement of racism. More like heaping more guilt on them. Although I wish Joseph had been less accepting of this cultural bias in the text.
The beginning of slavery is:
Genesis 47:23-25 (King James Version)
23Then Joseph said unto the people, Behold, I have bought you this day and your land for Pharaoh: lo, here is seed for you, and ye shall sow the land.
24And it shall come to pass in the increase, that ye shall give the fifth part unto Pharaoh, and four parts shall be your own, for seed of the field, and for your food, and for them of your households, and for food for your little ones.
25And they said, Thou hast saved our lives: let us find grace in the sight of my lord, and we will be Pharaoh's servants.
Two ways I could be persuaded to look at this:
1) Joseph should have simply given away the food. Like disaster relief. Too greedy maybe?
2) Joseph did save their lives, but it resulted in eventual dehumanization of people and even abortion...
First case of abortion in the Bible:
Exodus 1:16 (King James Version)
16And he [king of Egypt] said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.
This was worse (partial-birth) abortion than even practiced in America.
For now, please no discussion of these topics due to bandwidth issues.
It is important that we keep our posts short.
I would like to point out that if we keep talking about pedophilia, we need to see what God's Word says about these things. We have plenty of texts in Genesis that we have just covered that can help us to deal with this crisis in the American church which has been rumored to have surface at BBC.
What is strange is that God surely knew about pedophilia since before the beginning of time.
Why isn't there any clear cases in the Bible of pedophilia? Or are there?
Is there something distinct about America? Is this the first country in history to deal with pedophilia? Or are we just the first country to put it on TV?
If we generalize to a more-inclusve category we do have texts in Genesis on rape, abuse, etc. I do believe that we need to get God's whole counsel if we are to deal with these things with wisdom. What we can not allow is for these evil evil evil crimes and sins to be swept under the rug as occurred in the TV special last night. Let's not sweep God's word under the rug either.
Remember that Moses was inspired by the Holy Spirit to put the first 5 books of the Bible into written form. This includes the OT laws and Genesis. We'll be getting into the laws forbidding these sins in Leviticus.
Here are some incidents in Genesis.
Abraham: pharaoh's house and Sarah
Hagar, polygamy
Soddom and Gamorrah: angels almost raped, offered virgin daughter as a trade.
Lot and two daughters
Isaac: wife is my sister (no actual marriage like with Abraham).
Jacob: Leah, 2 wives' maids.
Rape of Dinah, slaughter as reprisal
Judah and Tamar: brother-in-laws' widow duty, death penalty for interefering with duty, incest with daughter-in-law, death penalty for pregnant prostitutes, illegit child.
I may have to open up my blog for discussion of these serious issues.
The Bible is our firm foundation for standing strong in hard times. We need to turn to its pages in all times. Our answers are there.
When we trust in Jesus he truly does get us through the hard times, even when we don't even know what to say.
We can always encourage people to trust Jesus and turn to the Bible.
Jesus can bear all pains and has paid the penalty for all sins.
He does expect us to bear the consequences.
Joseph*
*see profile
In the book “A PROPHET WITH HONOR; THE BILLY GRAHAM STORY” by William Martin, copyright 1991, page 472 the author states that in 1979 Billy Graham played a key role in the founding of the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability[ECFA] . “The organization’s purpose is to enunciate. Maintain and manifest a code of financial accountability and reporting which is consistent with enlightened and responsible Christian faith and practice.” “Membership in ECFA is voluntary and almost none of the well known television preachers opted to join, but Graham soon began to call on his colleagues to come aboard and to warn Christians against being to trusting .” “It is common for most religious leaders to be very secretive about the finances of their organizations.” He wrote “Unfortunately when legitimate Christian organization and churches refuse to be completely open about finances, they are conditioning people to accept unquestioningly the contention of the cult leader that he is not accountable to anyone for for his financial dealings…If you give to any Christian charity [ including the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association ] and you don’t insist on an understandable financial accounting of your gift, you are in danger of falling prey to [dishonesty ].”
I have created a new topic at baptist Life (assuming the moderator there doesn't delete it).
I have posted the second half of my comment immediately above to their forum.
If you want to discuss, please do it there instead of here. This is to try and not be held back by the bandwidth problems here.
Thanks,
Joesph*
*see profile
SWTT,
You raise excellent points and thank you for filling in details I left out.
If I were Steve Gaines I would have demanded a meeting with Mark Dougharty, David Smith, Bryson McQuiston and Phil Weatherwax. I would have demanded it be recorded, thereby insuring a permanent memorial to my innocence.
Why wouldn't the pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church, one of the preeminent churches in the Southern Baptist Convention, if not the entire United States, do everything in his power to clear his name? Why would he allow himself to be viewed as a liar? Why would he not dismiss an associate pastor who fostered a vicious lie about him, undermining his integrity. This lie undermines his ministry, indeed his livlihood. Why would he not want this cleared up?
If Donna Gaines was the one who actually had the dream and Steve gave Mark the impression it was his dream, he lied to Mark by not correcting the record. He then lied to the church by not clearing up the misconception on September 24th. He was duty-bound to tell us the truth that night and the evidence suggests he did not.
I have heard those other dream stories too. They should concern us all. As I said in my prior post, God does not in this age speak to men through dreams, visions or any direct communication apart from the Word of God, and that it is through the ministry of the Holy Spirit in illuminating God's word that believers are given understanding and direction for their lives. God's revelation is complete as contained in the sixty six books of the Bible. That means he does not have further things to reveal to nations or individuals that are not in the Bible. Further, the Bible is all sufficient in directing a person to finding and carrying out the will of God for their lives, without the need of a dream, vision or special communication from God in that manner. This dream theology gives me pause.
The "Amen Kelly Dream" is one of the most troubling aspects of the Bellevue crisis. It is easy to understand that someone or some group of people have lied and they continue to do so. Those people are employed by Bellevue Baptist Church as ministers of the gospel of Jesus Christ. You don't have to be McGruff the Crime Dog to follow this trail. As you stated we know for sure there is sin in the camp at the highest levels and the truth must be known.
Brother Steve, please hold a meeting of all parties so your name can be cleared.
Joseph,
I thought doing such a thing as investigating Buddhist thought might expose a Christian to evil spirits? I used to read Alan Watts (one the first American Buddhist authors) on the church bus, and the especially devout Christians would warn me of such.
But if I may be of assistance to you in this regard, I would be most happy to do so.
BTW, so if I show up next Sunday, what time, and where may I find the refugees located? I'm serious.
I am amazed at some of the "issues" some of you are stuck on.
4545,
Oh, is it your shift this evening?
You and others on this blog have the same attitude you say you are outraged about and claim the Bellevue leadership has.
Trollcates,
here is the link
Have a look.
I've got to do some things offline. I'll be back tonite.
I think Tim Coggins has info about seating arrangements. I'm not up on that as I'm pro-revival.
You and me are going to have some great stories to tell.
Thanks,
Joseph
Enjoy your shift; who's scheduled tomorrow?
Joseph check this out:
http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-ADM/keenan.htm
fortruth wrote: “Membership in ECFA is voluntary and almost none of the well known television preachers opted to join..."
fortruth, I hate to rain on your parade but I have had some dealings in this matter of ECFA and I hate to tell you this but they are just a glorified Chamber of Commerce for the Evangelical Community.
They print what para church orgainizations send them. Their audits are a joke. They do not post the salaries from the 990's of parachurch organizations which would send most donors through the roof!
If you think about it, they exist on membership dues and seminars. You don't 'bite the hand' that feeds you.
It was a good idea but it is definitely not the 3rd party watchman it was meant to be.
That seal means very little when it comes to parachurch finanical dealings. A better resource is Charity Navigators.
With all the money being spent at Bellevue on marketing, I suppose it's only a matter of time before we hear something like this during the announcements from Jamie Parker!
"Good morning, and welcome to worship at Bellevue Baptist Church. Don't forget the covered dish lunch after today's worship service -- brought to you by the great people at KFC. They do chicken right!
"And be sure to mark your calendar for the ladies "Donna's" prayer meeting Tuesday night, sponsored by Verizon Wireless. Can you hear me now, Lord?
"Then you'll want to be part of the special-called business meeting to discuss concerns about our new Payer Chapel,brought to youby Radio Shack, you've got questions, we've got answers! Radio Shack!
"Finally, plan now to be part of our church-wide visitation project next Saturday, brought to you by Nike -- just do it!"
I just had a weak moment....Sorry only a little fun. HopeI didn't give anyone at BBC any ideas. However it could be considered as an additional source oe revenue!!!
Josh, great fellowship last Friday & check your mail Thursday.
whereeaglesdare,
FUNNY STUFF!
Karen
Suprise, more of the same. PLEASE stop putting words in my mouth.
This will be my only post tonight.
Phil413, Not funny.
Since I have no posted in the last couple of days, I would appreciate that you would not use my "name" in your posts unles you are speaking to me aor have a question to me. I have not said a word to anyone here. I thought we agreed to play nice in our emails the other night, or at least I did.
Please do not assume that since I do not support asking the pastor to resign, that this means I do not think mistakes have been made. If you would like to discuss anything with me, please email me (it is on my profile) and I will be more than happy to discuss anything with you.
Memphis
As I said in my prior post, God does not in this age speak to men through dreams, visions or any direct communication apart from the Word of God, and that it is through the ministry of the Holy Spirit in illuminating God's word that believers are given understanding and direction for their lives.
Where exactly is this in the Scripture? I haven't seen it. If it's not in God's holy Word, how did it come into our possession? Through a dream, perhaps?
25+
I think its time for a List...Good time for one as I think 4545 went away to play his play station for awhile....
This warrants reposting!!!!!
Bloggers,
ACE & 4545 post for one purpose and one purpose only. Their sole purpose is to be antagonistic. As long as ya'll waste your precious time and talent feeding them, they will continue to play their game. If you ignore them, then they will soon go away. Ya'll need to FOCUS, FOCUS, FOCUS on the problems at BBC and quit playing into the TROLL's hands by playing their game. I know that it is hard to resist taking their BAIT, but you must RESIST THE TEMPTATION.
Matlock...
When did SG break the law? If he had broken the law wouldnt he be charged? When did it become your responsibility to condem our pastor. Do you not believe that our God is sovereign. Is he in control. If SG is in the wrong dont you think God will deal with him. Are there things about you that could be revealed. I have heard stories that indicate you might not be the saint you have made yourself out to be.
Go Vols...beat Auburn!!!
In response to wontclap4steve's comment on 1/16 at 9:55.. that David Coombs will announce that no evidence of moral failure was found...I have spoken with the HR guy hired by Bellevue on several occasions. I even asked him if he were one of the bloggers stirring up trouble to deflect from our seach for the truth. I don't think he is but he had said he read the blog so thought I would ask. I shared my personal experience with PW...deviant sexual questions included...I told him I had spoken with the asst.DA and had called Larry Griffin. I also told him I thought the information I gave would be thrown in the garbage by DC or whoever else was on this "investigative committee".I do believe this HR guy is trying to do what he was hired to do but he has no control on what happens after his work is completed. So I agree that even tho they will have at least my story,they will "find no evidence" to support that PW is a predator. The ending has already been decided. Two things are especially odd about their "investigation".There is not an advocate for the victims involved...not even a woman.Most women/victims/children will not be comfortable speaking the things that PW has said or done to a man.I sure wasn't when I began trying to tell people about PW. Odd that none of these "leaders" thought about that aspect of their investigation. The other almost laughable part is that I was offered counseling. Do they actually believe they have any credibility in this area...they could send victims to another staff member with moral failure that SG has declared is under the blood..very scary...none of this corruption will ever make sense to people that are not corrupt themselves or not blind followers.
CHARLIE FOX,
I agree with you totally. My Dad use to say "he wanted the goodwill of a dog." As a young child I kinda knew what he meant, the older I got. It was clear. But everyone does not feel this way.
Maybe if we ignore them, they will go away. Great post. Thanks for bringing us back to reality.
Thank you and God bless,
Paul Williams will be gone. There is no way he will remain on staff.
gmommylv let me remind you that Paul Williams has been on staff a long time. Even great leaders like Adrian Rogers were fooled by PW. Don't condem other ministers for no other reason than you don't like SG. Don't you think that when they offerred the couseling they were sincere and wanting to help.
Hey, I'd still like to know the following:
After hidden 17 years, what precipitated Williams' confession to Gaines; and, once learned in confidence, why the (pastor's)disclosure 6 months later?
What possible reason would any of this be coming to light now? Supplimentary Bible verses are optional.
Otherwise, look after the Beths, churchy people, and then maybe, just maybe, you may find the compassionate Jesus, the one you always talk about, in your hearts.
In my opinion, it's time to walk, dissidents, because this is already becoming infinitely discursive, and such is a dog chasing it's tail.
I hope y'all may move on and join one another in the context of whatever it is that you've lost in this congregation and regain the love and fellowship worth sharing in an environment of humility, openness and generosity.
Trollcates,
Well said!!
Here is my 2c...
Williams comes to Gaines in June and confesses to a watered down version of the truth. This must have been because someone was threatening to turn him in and he was trying beat them to the punch. The son comes in in November and reveals the truth and here we are.
If I thought they were sincere I would not have said what I said. As far as my "not liking" SG,I don't like how he saw and handled the PW issue and I don't like the damage that has been done to the work and integrity of Bellevue because of his leadership.
gmommylv,
Who has done more to harm the integrity of Bellevue..Steve Gains or Paul Williams
gmommylv-
1. So you are now questioning Jamie Fish and others in the Biblical guidance area at Bellevue because of PW's??
2. So you are claiming the current leadership at Bellevue does not want to get to the bottom of the PW's deal?
overflow- I have thought what you posted from day one.
I have yet to see anything to convince me differently.
aog,
I don't mind sharing how God speaks to me at all, even though it's a VERY personal question. He speaks to me through His word. He's never spoken to me in a dream, but He is more than able if He wants to. I'm not going to attempt to tie God's hands like John MacArthur and docbellevue are trying to do. God is very clear about adding to His word, and nothing in His Word prohibits Him from speaking in a dream. Hebrews 1 outlines how God spoke in the first century through His son, but Jesus spoke to Paul through a vision.
I've heard compelling testimonies of how God has recently given special revelation to Muslims in dreams, and I'm not going to dismiss these stories unless I have sufficient reason. I have every right to question whether these dreams are truly from God, but I'm not going to disregard them simply because they were dreams.
Note that Pastor Steve also asserted we should not hunger for a dream in his 'Morning Manna' devotional (Feb. 2). I disagree with him as well.
Overflowing,both have harmed the integrity of Bellevue. 4545,of course I am questioning leadership.I have a brain and past experiences. Why would I blindly accept and follow.Why would anyone? I do not "claim" anything. I have opinions based on my experiences and knowledge.I don't begruge you your opinion based on what you know and have experienced.
gmommylv-
1. So you are now questioning Jamie Fish and others in the Biblical guidance area at Bellevue because of PW's??
Dear gmommylv: Let me jump in here if I can. I see you are already being attacked for your opinion. For the record and it is a MUCH proven record in dealing with these internal investigative committees, they are rarely victim orientated.
As for counseling it should be up to the victim to decide the counseler they ELECT to use. In the latest update from Bellevue, they have used lines right out of the Catholic Church manual when it comes to their statment about counseling. Does anyone want me to provide facts to back up that statement?
If there is anyone out there that would like to discuss their situation with me, please free to contact me anytime. We do have counselers available as well as support groups.
Someone asked earlier what law did Dr. Gaines break? They implied if he had he would have been charged by now. Well I can answer that. Wait until the real investigators have completed their investigations before you come to his defense. The asst. DA has been quoted much in the media what laws were broken.
Like the story last night on Frontline, more than just the victims are hurt in these matters, many others are hurt too. You have heard from one victim tonight in gmommylv and what happens? She is attacked by 4545. That is wrong. 4545 you owe this person an apolgoy. Because they stated their opinion you attack them. Did you not listen to her words? She is a victim too. Shame on you!
gmommylv you are in my prayers. I will apologize for 4545. I am sorry you were attacked.
David Brown
SNAP coodinator for West Tennessee and Memphis
Don't play 4545's game!!!!!!!!
WOW, how were my questions attacks? I did not mean anything by the questions and I am sorry if they came across wrong. The post was very tough to follow and I wanted to make sure I understood
4545,I do question the competence of ministers in guidance because of PW and Michael Carrier before him and other experiences I have had.I do not know JF. Being a minister does not automatically make you a qualified couselor. For myself or my children,would never consider it again.
Don't take 4545's BAIT!!!!!
I am sorry you feel that way.
You are right Charlie, 4545 has his own agenda. David,thank you.. again.
Dear Charlie: I am not taking 4545's bait but when he attacks another victim, I will NOT sit back. I never have and I will not start tonight.
If the Pope was on here trying to attack a victim, I would be all over him too. We must protect these dear victims as well as our children. Charlie, I am a victim too. So I know where I am coming from.
4545 apologize to this lady properly. Not some qualified, half-hearted thing like if I have offended her I am sorry. Do it right, please?
David Brown,
My Brother, I certainly did not address that 4545 comment at you. I deeply appreciate EVERY post that you have put on this blog. It was meant for those that may not understand the game that 4545 and ACE are playing. You, MY Brother, keep right on posting.
I don't know if anyone has posted the schedule for the Bellevue Investigative Committee Report. This is the latest posting from bellevue.org:
Report Dates
January 20:
Investigative Committee turns report over to Personnel Committee.
To be announced:
Personnel Committee will report the results of the investigation to the congregation before the end of January
4545 I am still waiting. Are you going to apologize to gymommylv?
The victims always get it again. How many injured people getting counseling sessions over the years have been further harmed, knowing what they know now?
Mr Brown, I am glad for your work, after looking you up. I just thought you wished to witness to me. Bellevue member?
aog,
I can only speak for myself. If God ever speaks to me in a dream, I'll know it. If you tell me that he has spoken to you in a dream, I'll question it. Not the validity of your experience, but whether or not it was truly from God.
If I tell you that God has spoken to me in a dream, I'd advise you to question it as well.
My point is that there is nothing in the Scripture that suggests our God will not speak through dreams, visions, or miracles in today's postmodern world. The book of the Revelation speaks of two prophets yet to come, so the 'age of prophecy' has not ended. Anyone who dogmatically asserts that God will not speak apart from the Scripture doesn't have a Scriptural leg to stand on.
h
Trollcates: No former long time Bellevue member. No I was not wanting to witness to you UNLESS you were willling. I am more concerned about you and other victims. We must heal the mind and person before we can do the "other" stuff. Trust me thought I love doing the "other" stuff.
phil413 said...
David Brown,
God Bless you and your ministry. You will continue to be in my prayers.
AMEN & AMEN!!!
overflowinggrace said...
Go Vols...beat Auburn!!!
charlie fox said...
Vols 80
Auburn 83 Final Score
WAR EAGLE!!!!
I agree with phil413, I don't believe God calls us to be passive and have no voice when wrong is being done and we are aware of it. Isn't that why this blog was created ..to have a voice and seek truth...I know a huge group of mature Bellevue people from the same SS class that all chose to not speak of the "elephant in the room"..."just let God work it out".Maybe with all their years of service and giving,their voice would have been heard and caused some accountability.Maybe not but I think we are all called to use the voice and minds God has given us. One thing abuse eventually teaches...speaking the truth is not what we should fear..
chazzo said...
This post is from Dec 16. Some of us have been saying the same thing about Ace for quite a while.
RIGHT ON, RIGHT ON!!!!
Let NASS take care of ACE, 4545 and friends, as well as David Brown coming down on them when necessary. ALL others ignore them, and they will go away.
Overflowing grace's theory is this: Williams comes to Gaines in June and confesses to a watered down version of the truth. This must have been because someone was threatening to turn him in and he was trying beat them to the punch. The son comes in in November and reveals the truth and here we are.
The son came along in June, not November. PW had to confess or deny the abuse and call his son a liar.
david call me. urgent
Man, it's more pervasive than folks would believe, After our own sex scandal in the Sangha (I'm a Buddhist), I discovered many other incidents with teachers and Sanghas all over the place.
It blew up our group--it sucked.
gmommulv: AMEN AMEN.
David,
4545 disapeared when you held him accountable and didn't back off... truth has such strength...an example for us to learn from...thanks..PS,
the Philly steaks were not a temtation.
gymommylv: Thanks my dear sister and I did know who you were and that is what got me stirred up with him.
gmommylv said...
David,
4545 disapeared when you held him accountable and didn't back off... truth has such strength...an example for us to learn from.
ACE did the same thing last night when held accountable and was faced with the truth.
I assure you that if you don't play their game, they will disappear.
Now, Focus, Focus, Focus and don't get sidetracked.
Dear Charlie: Thank you so much for your wisdom my dear brother. See Truth will prevail!!
david- I said I was sorry before and I will say it again. I am sorry. That is unlike most on your side of the issues. They have personally attacked me and others several times in the past and refused to say they were sorry. They normally just continue to attack. If your convictions are true, you and others should call THOSE people out as well. Their attacks are not sugar coated and they cannot be mistaken for anything else.
4545,
Thank you for your apology. You know reason that you, ACE and friends are continuously REBUKED is that ya'll only post to be antagonistic. NO REPLY NECESSARY.
Well, the day turned out too good to be true and the trolls began their feeding frenzy in the afternoon. I do want to commend Charlie Fox for his REPEATED emphasis on how to deal with them, don't even stop to read the spewings of those whose only purpose here is to create strife, which is of the devil, we do not owe them a response.
Remember II Thess 3:6
This has helped me from being dragged down to their level - that, and the prayers of Godly friends.
On another note, I find I agree, yet disagree with many of you who have spoken on the dream issue. There are dreams of the flesh and dreams of the spiritual realm and dreams from God. You can only discern the difference if you can confirm it in Scripture.
This if a first hand account of MY dream. I am here to tell you that I was delivered from a besetting fear in a dream. There were angels and the Lord spoke to me, I did not see Him and I did not see the angels, but I was aware of their sweet presence in my dream.
You see, I was terrified of heights, and in my dream I was falling. This was a very traumatic fear for me, not your run of the mill fear, a "terrifying to the point of collapse fear". There were angels present and the inaudible voice spoke as clear as a bell and His voice still rings in my ears. He used scripture, "I will never leave you or forsake you". I verified it in scripture - Heb 13:5. I had sought the Lord's deliverance from this fear for many years; He chose to deliver me in a dream. This was a very particular deliverance I was seeking in petition to the Lord, just as Paul sought the removal of the thorn in his flesh. And, I was able to verify it by scripture and that is the key to whether it is of God or Satan. (Jesus fought Satan with the Word, remember!) I woke up, and I have never feared heights again. It is as I have been entirely cleansed from even the thoughts of the fear, which is also scriptural-John 8:36.
I believe the Scriptures with all my heart, I knew if He said it, that even if I did fall, and regardless of how far I fell, He would be there. This, folks is a dream come true and I share it with tears of joy.
I will go on to say that, if Steve (or Donna) was not taking Mr. Kelly to the Lord in prayer, then I would question the validity of the sudden dream revealing his spiritual condition that prompted his "Amen's". This sounds to me more like someone woke up after having a dream out of the blue and attributing it to God without discerning the source.
Satan does not use the Scriptures to reveal truth. If one can back up a dream revelation in the Scriptures, then you can be assured it is of God. If not, then you had better change your diet, physically and spiritually.
charlie fox
Last night before Ace refused to speak to me anymore, he made this accusation toward me:
Ace Said:
You say I am full of lies, yet you keep begging for my posts... hmm...
10:08 PM, January 16, 2007
I didn't think about it until later, but I don't think I EVER accused him of telling lies......must have been a knee jerk reaction.
4545: I know that Charlie has accepted your apology, I do NOT.
I asked you not to qualify it as you have. Why can't you just apologize to this lady without adding all that other stuff.
I am not on any other sides but only this one issue. That is for truth and transparency when dealing with this issue of child abuse. So I can't speak for the others nor do I want to.
I am certain you are good man and a very devote Christain that loves the Lord dearly. But you were wrong in attacking this victim. She stated her opinions at having gone thru what she had to endure. Please my dear brother do it properly without attaching all the other stuff. Is it too hard to just say: "gymommly I am sorry. Would you please forgive me?" Leave all the other junk off. Please?
piglet said...
I didn't think about it until later, but I don't think I EVER accused him of telling lies......must have been a knee jerk reaction.
Piglet,
You were being BAITED. Plain and simple.
11:43 post from DocBellevue is important to look at concerning the Amen Kelly dream issue. (Please take the time to read his post)
Character and integrity in the pastor is critical because the pastor is leading the church. Do we want to follow someone who’s leading us in the wrong direction?
Because Bellevue is one of the flagship churches in the Southern Baptist Convention. It's automatically accepted that we could never get a man that didn't have the integrity and character for the positions. Nothing could be further from the truth.
This is not always a safe assumption. Pastors can become mega church pastors without developing the character necessary for the position. We can look all around the country at examples of churches big and small that have had pastors fall from grace.
I love Bellevue because I've grown as a Believer. I've never been a member of any church like Bellevue, surrounded by laypeople that love the Lord and know His Word with such depth. I’ve known many who are led by the Holy Spirit and their character is impeccable.
A seminary degree doesn't make a person Spirit filled any more than becoming a pastor of a mega church does.
When a pastor expects his followers to follow because of his position instead of the leading of the Holy Spirit, we end up with a bully from the pulpit. Anyone who doesn’t follow him is accused of stirring up trouble and sinning against God's anointed one.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
I believe the dream issue that happened shortly after Steve Gaines arrived has to be dealt with openly and honestly. It's been over a year since the dream issue started splitting Bellevue. If the dream issue is not dealt with, nobody can believe anything coming from the office of the pastor or the church. Truth not only counts, it’s everything inside the church.
We have the pastor, associate pastor, at least two other ministers on staff, and at least a half dozen deacon officers (past and current) who were made aware of the Truth surrounding the dream. Unfortunately all but a few chose to turn their head another direction opposite Truth. The men who are directly involved have never been asked to get together in the same room and get to the truth. Why not? A simple explanation would do. It just doesn’t make sense other than the dream did happen and they don’t want to face the truth.
Steve Gaines had only been the pastor for several months when the dream issue surfaced. Why would something this serious occur so quickly? I believe it occurred to expose the lack of integrity and honesty in our leadership. Since the denial of the dream, we have seen an INTEGRITY MELTDOWN weak after weak like nobody has ever seen before.
A chance to correct a wrong has mushroomed into a devastating climate of distrust and disgust in the leadership. It won’t go away until Truth is embraced. Truth has a way of healing any situation like nothing else available. There is no answer to our problem other than Truth, honesty, openness, and forgiveness.
Steve Gaines, please do the right thing. Listen to the Holy Spirit lead you and stop listening to men. The Holy Spirit will lead you down the right path. Only then, will we be able to start healing and move on.
I love my Bellevue and pray that God restores it one day to where He wants it to be.
Since we're discussing how the Lord speaks...
I've heard a Voice before while I was praying. Once.
I was wounded and crying out to the Lord, asking for help with a family member.(Essentially I was telling Him everything they did wrong and how bad it was, how much it hurt.) I was rebuked. Loudly. And scripturally. I have no doubt that the Lord spoke to me, and it shook me. I have not been the same since. Woe is me, I am undone. I am the sinner in need of grace, and I'm the one who hurts my Father's heart with my rebellion and lack of tender concern for the One who loves me and gave Himself up for me, my unwillingness to spend time with Him.
I certainly am one that believes that the "dream" is a lie. Whether it was SG or MD, one has lied about it. As far as God not using dreams...I would question that??
What about Joel 2:28-32? Also, I remember Dr. Rogers telling a story about losing his wallet. He said that the Lord showed him exactly where his wallet was, and he went to that exact place and found his wallet. I think it is a stretch to say that God does not speak to us through dreams and visions. Yes, we are to test these things against scripture. I do not believe that God speaks discourse and deception through dreams...but that He can definitely speak to us
through these venues. JMO
Bloggers,
I have had more than one person seek clarification so let me repeat what I posted on "Today's Media Coverage - January 2, 2007". At this point I consider the effort to be "well-received," thus my previous offer to stop is now not so open-ended.
Thanks,
Joseph (Bible-in-a-year, Choice_is_yours)
choice_is_yours said...
Happy New Year!
I'm just making this one post to introduce a userid that I will use to make a daily post that has a convenient link to Bible-in-a-year text.
I'll happily end this daily post if it is not well received.
The userid will be "Bible-in-a-year."
I am responsible for it.
Thanks,
Choice
P.S. As long as I am posting, I will probably also add a name of a nation in the world to pray for as a focus of Great Commission prayers.
1:28 PM, January 02, 2007
hmmm.... lets run off those that disagree with us...
Where have I heard that before?
Okay, I am sorry, I couldn't resist that last post. But in all seriousness I feel that it is unfair to assume my motivations. I did not come here to cause "strife". And don't you see the irony in complaining about all the people that wish you "antis" would just be quiet and go away and the way you act about us? I have gone to Bellevue for 27 years and have been very involved every step of the way. I have as much right to my opinions and feelings on this as you do. I will admit that I have sometimes given in to the arguing, but like some of you have said- it takes two to tango. You give as good as you get.
Hey All,
After skimming through a lot of the posts today, I have a suggestion.
I think this blog and our arguements on both sides of the problem would carry more weight if we checked our emotions at the door. I understand that some of these issues are very serious, but none of them really warrant talking trash. I'm not saying disagreeing is bad, disagreement is natural. What is bad is that we are all attacking each other. Lets face it folks, we all have one common thread, the survival of Bellevue. Lets take that and use that as a building block to civilized and respectful debate.
I just finished watching "Hand of God" (recorded on DVR).
It was hard to sit through. I know I cannot understand the anguish of these victims because I have not been in their shoes.
I saw many similarities to what is happening at Bellevue:
The Good Ole'Boys club
The arrogance of the leaders
The corruption and secrecy
The fear of loss of power
At the end there was a thought provoking statement that I will attempt to paraphrase:
If Jesus were here today, what would he think of our church leaders?
I think he would address them much the same as He did the pharisees.
Trollcates,
I followed the link you left.
When you left Mid-America were you a PhD candidate?
Not knwoing anything about that document, neither where it can from, who wrote it, their background, who they were writing to, nor their purpose, I hesitate to comment in depth.
1) It was over my level. Perhaps permanently.
2) I have ony given it a breief review.
3) I am aware that I have to be very careful when reading something that is over my head because it might have some theological...errors... in it somewhere that I don't notice because of the hi-level academic rendering.
In additin to this, the main thrust was to deconstruct all of western philosophy. That leaves me with few tools to analyze with if I am not allowed to used what little academic tools I have. My academic background is thoroughly western.
I did catch the idea in the first few paragraphs. When attempting to present any idea to a person in the Eastern worldview we should take off any Western "packaging" and then re-package the idea in Eastern philosophies.
The paper then went on to use this technique with 20th century Christianity which has 2000 years of western thought proceses. (resulting in Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, etc.)
The claim is made that Christ is Christ no matter East or West. I certainly agree with that.
oops... have to go offline
NASS
Can you delete the first of my two identical posts? I hit send before I cleaned it up and I have no trashcan :(
NASS
Thanks! And nighty night!
(offline)
(online)
Sorry about that. Wife needed something. Didn't want to end up re-typing all of that. (But I wish I could redo some of the spelling as I didn't get to re-read before posting, my usual custom).
Basically that was the part of the paper I understood.
The next part got into some **very** unclear areas of representing the godhead components in eastern terminology. I would want to run that section over with a ***microscope*** and have some smarter & more biblical people than me look at it as well.
So, skipping over that part...
Then it went on to finish by adding in Buddhist terminology. Were those sanskrit/Hindii words?
That last part probably would be of the most use for me just to learn some terminology in order to talk to Buddhists. Especially if I witness to one of their priests.
Any way, interesting with the disclaimers above.
Peace.
Open Letter #2 to Mr. Jim Haywood
From Ace:
acefrombbc@gmail.com
Jim,
First of all, I must admit I was not expecting a reply from you and it caught me by surprise, so thank you for replying. On top of that, as an addd bonus, you posted my letter on your site. That is truly remarkeable, I must admit. So thank you for for doing both of those things. Below you will find my response to your response....I will address the points in my letter in the order that you addressed the points in your last message.
First of all, are you sure that you have never contacted any of the local TV stations? You said you didn't do it to "exploit" savingbellevue.com, but did you do it to address the issues in the church? And then while you did the interview, you decided to give savingbellevue.com a plug? And you state that you "may have" contacted the media to return a phone call. Let's be completely honest, here, alright? You either did call them or you didn't....there shouldn't be any "may haves" - at least in my mind, there shouldn't. It should be a pretty concrete statement. And that's all I really have to say about that. I think you are being truthful with those statements, but a little...deceiving. If I am incorrect on that, then I apologize.
Now...let's talk about the book deal. You said you charged him $125 for web space and said that you pay almost $400 a year for your sites. If those are honest figures, I think $125 is a rip-off for Mr. Russell, and $400 is a rip-off for yourself. Do you have a dedicated server or something? Because you could get PLENTY of web space and bandwidth to cover all of your sites for $15 a month which would essentially be $180 for the year...half of what you are paying. There are plently of reputable hosts that offer these low prices compared to what you're paying. Email me and I'd be happy to recommend a few to you. So with that being said, after I look at Mr. Russell's site, for web space only, it looks like there is no more than 2MB of files on the page....which a site with that little file sizes could be hosted for less than $3 a month....$36 for the year. I'm not saying you're scamming him, I'm just saying I think YOU are being scammed and in effect, you midjudged the price on which you should charge him, esentially mischarging him.
Now regarding your expenses, you first state that "meet him a Danvers in which he bought my supper" then later you list $5 as a business expense to show that you're not making a profit....I just want to point on that you said one thing then another...but I'll let it slide this time. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you payed $5....in my opinion, that's not a good expense to list because you did get dinner out of the deal...but whatever. And thank you for letting me know what you ate. Anf if I may inquire, what salad dressing did you use? And he payed the bill with cash? While I appreciate your honesty and detail, please know that you don't have to be *that* detailed with me unless you just have the urge to be!
Speaking of Mr. Russell, yes, I have been following the site for several months now and notice the constant changes. You said you already paid $130 for the hosting....again, I think that is an incorrect amount, but I have already addressed that issue. Something has to be wrong here, though....$130 for less than 3MB of files just isn't right. And I would love his phone number, could you please send it to me?
As for your spelling issues...Frontpage has an excellent feature called Spell Check....try it out sometime. It's the F-7 key.
Now, regarding the website counter....you pay $19.95 per month for the extra report? Wow...is that really nessecary though? Why does it even matter how many people view your site? I think by having a counter it says, "hey, look how great this site is, it has XXX,XXX hits! We are the best!" There should be a way in your options to "hide" the counter....I challenge you to use that option on your website. Let the stats be known to you and you alone. You now have an Excel file of 300,000 more hits? Now - let's break down that file. How many UNIQUE visitors or there in that file? And what I mean by that is this....if I visited your site 377 times personally, that would only count as one hit...because it's per visitor. And I would love to take a look at that file for myself, but there is no way I will ever go to your home. You'll have your video camera ready and will post me on your site...and that isn't going to happen!
Oh...speaking of video cameras, regarding the "camcorder incident" you posted on your site...here's the deal on that. I just realize I never completely finished my thoughts in my last letter to you. You posted your story at http://www.savingbellevue.com/camcorderincident.htm --- Then you posted copyright exceptions at http://www.savingbellevue.com/copyrightslaw.htm
I'll have you know this.... Bellevue Baptist Church is private property. And because of that, recording restrictions CAN indeed be placed on the premises and there is absolutely no legal backing saying that they are forced to allow someone to record. Not the news media, and definately not you.
And that's where your "copyright exception" page comes into play. Are you an expert in the field of law? I highly doubt that... so I'll clear this up for you. The page you put up only describes what can be done with a work ALREADY CREATED to which one does not own the copyright, and has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether or not somebody can create a work and where. Sorry, buddy. Nice try but you were wrong. I anticipate you to remove that deceiving information off of your website soon....
Now, I'm sure you've received a ton of emails...some probably praising you and some attacking you. You are of course under no obigation to reply to hate mail, but you should at least give people the common courtesy of letting them know they get your suggestions when it comes to stuff other than gossip/rumors/lies. Otherwise, put up a disclaimer on your site saying not all emails will be replied to. You just "pick and choose" what YOU want to deal with and ignore the stuff that makes you look bad....which is quite sad, if you ask me.
About the picture you put up...thank you for the apology and admitting it was a mistake. I'll leave that issue at that. Here's another question for you...Josh Manning is your friend, right? I'm wondering if he paid you for his website for hosting and webspace? He is on your server....that's the only reason I'm asking. And concerning Mike Bratton, I have never seen any bad comments directed towards you on his site. Don't rely on the word of others, that's how rumors start, you know? Go to your site for yourself to see what is being said about you.
Well, I will wrap this up since it has been rather long already...I thank you again for your reply and I look forward to hearing your response to this email.
Your friend,
Ace
The whole SG dream thing seems too twisted for me. But I do know that God speaks to individuals when He sees fit. As an adult,I look for God's voice and will in the truth and principals of His word....in the time that I am just quiet before the Lord (Charles Stanley taught me that)and I do look to godly,wise Christian friends..and I use discernment even then. BUT as a wounded child in a very unsafe home, I talked to God,I asked questions no child should need to ask, as if He were sitting right there with me and my paper dolls. HE DID speak to me. Knowing that the God that created the world, heard me and promised He had a plan for me and I was not to give up, has sustained me for the last 45 years.I prayed (sad a 5 year old would think to pray this)that He would give me a little girl someday and help me to be a good mommy and protect her from bad people...He did and I always knew He would. And knowing she was promised to me has been a great blessing in my daughter's life.I would not as an adult ask God for what I call frivolous things now but as a lonely child,I asked if he would give me a white kitten so I would have someone to love. He did,the very next morning...and I woke up fully expecting that God would answer my prayer. That kitten showed me He was there watching over me...telling me my life had worth to Him. What I should have learned at 5 or soon after was to always keep my heart focused on Him because people can never measure up to our hopes and expectations... but that took a few more years. So bottom line,God can speak to His children...as He sees fit...but as maturing Christians we can know Him thru His word and our time spent alone and surrendered to Him completely. We don't always need the fluff and drama...and dreams. But,God is God,and has no limitations in His love and mercy for His children. Being a mother the last 27 years has helpd me understand the depth of my Fathers love for me.None of this is about the PW thing but the dream and voice from God kept coming up and for whatever reason,I have now shared one of the sweetest and most intimate details of my life. It is never God's will that children (especially) be violated by their parents or others in positions of leadership and authority.I don't think Christians should have to have an abusive background to be passionate about protecting and defending those that cannot defend themselves. I don't know where PW's son is in his healing process but every deflection from the violation of this young man's body, soul, and mind is wrong and it pulls the scab off whatever healing has taken place or puts him back to that place of confusion and powerlessness. This blog should do nothing to cause him or PW's other victims more shame and sorrow or bleeding. I am much more concerned that our mercy and support go out to those that really need it. Whatever SG did or didn't do before this PW revelation is nothing compared to keeping this preditor on staff,on campus,continueing to support him and putting so much effort and expense into the cover up. I can't imagine the hurt and confusion this drawn out process has added to this man's (PW's son)life who has carried this secret and probably lived in fear for his own children. Can we stop debating the things associated with this this. Stop trying to justify how SG handled this...it was wrong,wrong,wrong.
Joseph,
Oh, I found it via your link--I don't have much use for it, but it makes a good point. A religious fundementalist generally will view any other religion through the prism of his or her own.
I lurked here long before I posted, but once I did so, allofgrace replied with what is a common from the born again, "Buddha didn't rise from the dead." Well, he didn't die for my sins either; in fact, since the concept of original sin is not in play, it is significant that he was just a man. I don't worship Buddha and he wouldn't approve anyway.
Instead of being born damned, the view holds that our nature is pure, but our true conciousness becomes obscured by desire, aversion and ignorance. I could go on, but I'm sure I'll get in trouble.
Anyway, the philosophical substructure is completely different. Somebody mentioned some eastern-influenced spirituality as sounding "occultish." This is said, with a straight face, by someone whose own beliefs--the doctrine of original sin, the virgin birth, God becoming flesh, dying a sarificial death, etc.--would give these devotees pause.
Obviously, as an evangelical, your worldview is incompatable with eastern thought, nor should you try to fit a square peg in a round hole.
Ok, let me have it.
"Ok, let me have it."
:)
Have what? My email address?
I'll send you an email.
This -->"Obviously, as an evangelical, your worldview is incompatable with eastern thought"
...is not accurate.
The Bible is just as relevant in the East as in the west or for an Eskimo or for a s. pacific islander.
You'd be surprised to discover that while I am unfamiliar with Buddhism in particular, Eastern thought processes are... nothing new.
(offline)
I guess I was talking on a cosmological level, how does one rectify seemingly opposite world views?
Now I know followers of Christ--generally of the Unitarian or New Thought variety--whose faith doesn't demand exclusivity (there's also Thomas Merton), but most Evangelicals don't consider them part of the fold.
What do you know of Soren Kierkegaard?
Some folks seem a wee bit upset about a guy spending a couple hundred bucks of his own money for a website.
Are they upset about BBC using tithes to pay lawyers and consultants hundreds of dollars per hour for their time on the PW "independent" investigation.
Just wonderin'
25+,
If you are lurking, please check your email.
Thank you
byebelle said....
"I remember Dr. Rogers telling a story about losing his wallet. He said that the Lord showed him exactly where his wallet was, and he went to that exact place and found his wallet."
bb,
I remember that story and he prayed for the Lord to show him where his wallet was and HE did reveal that to him. It is a beautiful story of a Father taking care of ALL aspects of one of His children.
Thanks for reminding me of it!
Andrew,
If you are lurking, please check your email.
Thank you
Bin Wonderin,
Some folks seem a wee bit upset about a guy spending a couple hundred bucks of his own money for a website.
Did you even read what I said? I said he is being ripped-off, is there a problem with that? No. Quit trying to make a big deal out of every single little thing.
Did you even read what I said? I said he is being ripped-off, is there a problem with that? No. Quit trying to make a big deal out of every single little thing.
I read it. What I gleaned was that you make a big deal out of little unimportant things. Meanwhile you ignore the big things others are posting eloquently about.
Father in Heaven,
Thank you for the chance to create a new topic at BaptistLife. Thank you for the warm welcome of the two moderators over there. I understand they have had trouble with spammers on the forum. That is why they need access to people's i.p. addresses. Unfortunately they look down on anonymity so that the discussion I had hoped to have there did not work out. Father please help us to solve this bandwidth bottleneck so that your Word can go out and we can talk about your word. Help us to take in your word and digest it completely and live it. Help us to do this in a way that inspires the lost and dying world. Thank you for Trollcates' willingness to be a translater for me as I go to talk to the Buddhists.
In Jesus's name,
AMEN.
Day 18: Exodus 4-6
American English translation ("NIV")
King James
Please pray a Great Commission prayer for today's nation of the day: Belarus
Ace,
I checked and Josh Manning's blog is a Goggle Blogger account, just like NBBCOF. It is not hosted on Jim's server. Does Josh have another site I am unaware of? I want to make sure I understand what you are talking about. I heard Josh and Jim had never even met until Josh came home for Christmas, so I can't understand why his website would be on Jim's server. Can you clear this up for me?
Did you read the "dream story" dialog between Docbellvue and SWTT yesterday. A friend in my Sunday School class who has always been on your side read it and was persuaded we have a problem with our leadership. She had never seen it laid out in a logical format where she could understand it. She always thought it was a simple misunderstanding until yesterday. That dialog helped frame the significance of the dream issue. Care to comment?
Thank you, ACE.
This warrants reposting!!!!!
Bloggers,
ACE & 4545 post for one purpose and one purpose only. Their sole purpose is to be antagonistic. As long as ya'll waste your precious time and talent feeding them, they will continue to play their game. If you ignore them, then they will soon go away. Ya'll need to FOCUS, FOCUS, FOCUS on the problems at BBC and quit playing into the TROLL's hands by playing their game. I know that it is hard to resist taking their BAIT, but you must RESIST THE TEMPTATION.
gmommylv said, "So I agree that even tho they will have at least my story,they will "find no evidence" to support that PW is a predator. The ending has already been decided."
"THE ENDING HAS ALREADY BEEN DECIDED..." Amen gmommylv! You hit the nail on the head.
In all my research on the Purpose Driven Church movement, this is one area I happened upon that needs to be known and understood. I am not saying this is a factor in every church, but I am saying it is one to be suspect of. There needs to be an area of credibility assigned to issues of any votes taken and any area of investigation undertaken. PREDETERMINED RESULTS ARE A KNOWN FACTOR IN PURPOSE DRIVEN MOVEMENTS especially in areas where transitioning an established church to a purpose driven church is taking place. In other words, the power mongers are in total control even down to the vote...everything is preplanned and predetermined. I am of the opinion this is most likely a factor at Bellevue and I would strongly advise that steps be taken to assure you that the outcome of any vote or investigation be undertaken by a professional means...much like that which was done at Germantown Baptist. Please do not allow yourselves to be 'railroaded'.
In your discussions here, please remember to stay focused on the issues that brought you here...and don't let the trolls sidetrack you. Time may be short...don't let them succeed in getting you off course please.
trollcates,
"I guess I was talking on a cosmological level, how does one rectify seemingly opposite world views?
Now I know followers of Christ--generally of the Unitarian or New Thought variety--whose faith doesn't demand exclusivity (there's also Thomas Merton), but most Evangelicals don't consider them part of the fold.
What do you know of Soren Kierkegaard?"
In a way it may look like all people are making a Kierkegaardian "leap to faith" in their religion, etc. However, this is what makes Biblical Christianity distinct from the other religions. Instead of you choosing God, God chooses you and works faith in your heart. The Christian makes no such "leap to faith" as I believe those in other religions do. (By the way, even atheists are making a leap to faith - in their own logic.)
By the way, it's easy to fall into believing Christianity is arrogant because it claims their is only salvation by Christ. However all religions make truth claims. Even unitarians are making a truth claim by saying many roads lead to God.
I've read Kierkegaard and other philosophers, and I think we could have a pretty deep discussion about it; it would probably be best to e-mail me to continue it, however, since most readers here probably haven't interacted with the different philosophies, etc.
"Instead of you choosing God, God chooses you and works faith in your heart."
Well brother, I don't quite know what that means or that it differs from other claims. The Mormon side of my family says, read the scriptures and pray with an earnest heart, and God will show you this is His truth. Southern Baptist say the same thing, Muslims, etc.
I don't happen to believe the kind of singular truth, didactic, can be given equivalence with paths that don't make such claims. My Buddhist path, for instance, makes no claim to exclusivity. So too, while some Buddhist are religious in the germane sense of the word, Buddhism is more so a philosophy, with its emphasis on living this life with awareness and compassion, not the subject of the hereafter or God.
I love my church said...
Piglet,
I do not believe we know each other. I've revealed my indentity to one person on this blog and no one else.
As long as you have been a member of Bellevue, you know who I am.
11:57 PM, January 15, 2007
Mrs. Rogers??
"Southern Baptist say the same thing, Muslims,"
...by Trollcates.
Actually, Muslims will becoming to Christ in large numbers in our lifetime. Jmho.
Could be, but I'm still say'n...
I have no interest in having philiosophical conversations with Buddhists.
There are Christians with Eastern philosophy.
My goal is not to tell people about Western philosophy.
My goal is to present Christ to Buddhists, and Him crucified.
No matter what philiosophical views a person has, it still comes down to a choice: There's a man hanging on a cross. What does a person do in response? Accept the forgienvess Christ pronounces from the cross? "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."
Or reject His last gasps of breath as just another religious "dude."
That is what it comes down to with the Atheists, the Muslims, the Hindus, the Buddhists.
For the muslims it litterally comes down to a single verse in the Qoran.
And what is interesting about that verse is that, as a Christian, when I read that verse it says Christ died for my sins on the cross.
But when Muslims read it with a closed mind it says something that they've been taught by false teachers and errant hadith for centuries.
Just remember how quickly the Berlin wall came down.
That's all I can say. There won't be enough church buildings to hold all the Muslims that will accept Christ in the next hundred years.
The harvest is great but the workers are few.
Iraq: I believe that we've absolutely been doing the right thing in Iraq. But I also believe that we could accomplish some unaccomplished goals by adding Missionaries on a 1:1 basis to footsoldiers. So we are about to add 20,000 soldiers to Bagdad. We should also add 20,000 missionaries to Bagdad. ( I wish it were that simple!)
Disclaimer: I do ***not*** mean "convert or die." It has to be a volunteary choice. I mean present the truth that they have not heard in bagdad in 1,500 years, with debatable minor exceptions due to the conitinued presence of the Arab churches.
But it has to be a voluntary choice. But how can they make that choice if nbody tells them? How can they be told if nobody goes? How will people go if we don't send them?
Praise God for the work of the IMB and other agencies.
Praise God for the work of missionaries in Iraq now. May the Holy Spirit move in the hearts of Bagdad today with power to lead them to conviction to accept the words of Christ, and him crucified...
(offline)
I still owe you an email, Trollcates. Been busy around here.
I love the way dr.rodgers used to say "THE BIBLE SAYS..."One he used to teach from the bible and can be apllied to all philsophy of men...Colosians 2:8&9
"BEWARE lest any man spoil you through Philosophy and Vain Deceit,after the rudiments of the World and not after Christ"
HE REIGNS!
gug said--
"By the way, even atheists are making a leap to faith - in their own logic.)"
Was it Dr. Rogers who told the story about a friend of his who owned a trucking company which required prospective applicants to submit to a lie detector test? He said that when they asked a person if he believed in God and he answered "No", it always showed up as a lie.
The point of the sermon was how God created it in all of us to know Him, but how He never MAKES us come to Him.
Dee
An Itty Bitty Fence
Accusation Summary
On August 7, 2006, Steve Gaines, Chuck Taylor, Mark Dougharty, and John Caldwell desired a meeting with Mark Sharpe so they drove to Mark’s private, gated neighborhood. They did not contact Mark to announce they were coming. When they arrived the neighborhood gate was closed. Surrounding the neighborhood is a 43 inch rail fence (photo here ). The neighborhood is clearly marked with signs that say “No Trespassing” and “Private Property” (photo here ). (gate photo here)
Instead of waiting out front and calling Mark, the foursome climbed the fence and walk to Mark’s home. He was not home so they spoke with one of Mark’s children.
By August 7th, the conflict at Bellevue was beginning to crescendo. Mark Sharpe, Richard Emerson, and staff members had been asking questions for months. These men—the foursome—and other leaders were aware of these questions. They were also aware of an upcoming meeting of church members concerned with matters at church. They did not want that meeting to take place. The have said they went to Mark’s home that evening out of concern for our church and their urgent desire to “reconcile with a brother.”
In a deacon’s meeting these men confirmed they had “stepped over a fence.” One of them has characterized their attempt to see Mark as “not any different than an EE visit.” The pastor referred to the fence as an “itty bitty” fence on the evening of September 24th.
All but John Caldwell have personally apologized to Mark Sharpe for trespassing and showing up at his home unannounced.
Analysis
There are many issues that arise from this sequence of events. I will focus on only a few that concern me. This is an easy issue to understand once you consider the evidence and follow the sequence of events.
According to Dictionary.com, “itty bitty” is defined as follows: “very small, tiny.” Perhaps Brother Steve believes a 43 inch fence is "very small" or "tiny." I disagree. I believe that was a characterization designed to mislead. I readily admit my conclusion is just that: my conclusion. It cannot be proven since I have no way to ascertain his thought process or understanding when he made that statement to the church. It boils down to his understanding of the definition of “very small” or “tiny.” Maybe he considers a fence that is more than waste high to be “very small” or “tiny.” He also stooped over and held his hand around his knees to give an indication of the fence height. That seemed misleading too.
Maybe Wilt Chamberlain or Shaquille O’Neal could step over a 43 inch fence. None of the Bellevue foursome could do it. I do not believe any one of them is even capable of jumping the fence. To put it in perspective, the hurdles used in Olympic sprints are 42 inches tall. The pastor is the tallest of those men and I believe he is also the youngest. Check out the photo linked above, do you believe he is capable of even hurdling a 43 inch fence? The foursome have said they had come from a meeting at the church and then drove to Mark’s home. I doubt they were wearing track clothing in that meeting. That is just a guess.
The only logical conclusion I can draw is the claim they “stepped over” the fence is patently false. Someone lied and they all allowed the lie to go unchallenged. Each man has had months to correct the record. By not doing so, each has given his tacit approval of the lie.
Does Bellevue train our EE participants to climb or step-over fences onto private property in gated neighborhoods to share the gospel? I do not remember that from my EE days, so I don’t know the answer. If we do advise our people to scale fences, this policy needs to be reconsidered. We do not want Bellevue members handcuffed and arrested while laying out the Roman Road. Imagine the liability and embarrassment.
To me the most crucial aspect of this story is not the trespassing itself. It’s not whether or not they stepped over the fence. It’s not whether or not the fence is “itty bitty.” Those are troubling, but secondary issues. The most crucial aspect of this scenario is the purpose of the meeting. The foursome's stated intention was to “reconcile with a brother.” They have said they loved him so much and loved Bellevue so much they were moved to go to him to reconcile right then. It was so urgent they did not even take the time to walk over to the deacon registry and lookup his phone number so they could alert him ahead of time. (Do you believe they happened to know his address? Just asking…) If they truly sought reconciliation I believe I could overlook “stepping over” the “itty bitty” fence. If they truly were seeking to meet with Mark Sharpe in a spirit of Christian love, this entire sequence of events should be a dead issue as far as I’m concerned. I bet Mark would agree with me.
If it is true their desire was to “reconcile with a brother,” I am forced to ask the following questions: If it was that urgent, why didn’t they wait at Mark's or out front until Mark got home to speak with him? Why didn’t they call him later than evening to speak with him?
Why didn’t they call him the next day to speak with him? Again, if it was urgent, what changed? What caused them to give up their desire to reconcile with Mark before speaking with him? This befuddles me. No one attempted to speak with Mark for several days. The next contact with Mark was the infamous “Hezbollah” call with the pastor. The pastor’s words and tone were heard by Lydia Sharpe and Deacon Richard Emerson. He was angry with Mark and did not seek reconciliation at that time.
I cannot look into these men’s hearts. However, logic dictates there was never any intention to reconcile with Mark. Logic says they intended to confront and intimidate Mark into not attending and speaking at the upcoming public meeting. Logic dictates these men knew perfectly well how to quickly find Mark’s phone number. I assume they had to look up the address and they made the decision not to call Mark because they wanted the element of surprise. They wanted to catch him off-guard. They also wanted to speak with him alone. They did not want him to have time to contact Richard Emerson and others because they did not want any witnesses. Some of this is supposition, but it comports with the facts that are on the record.
Concerning the apologies to Mark, the foursome did not apologize to him for trespassing until shortly before the Communications Committee report was issued months later. I believe Mark Dougharty and Brother Steve apologized only so they could claim they had done so. Chuck Taylor did not seek Mark out to apologize. Instead he only apologized after Mark expressed his disappointment over the phone that Chuck had never apologized. John Caldwell has never apologized.
Conclusion
Based on the statements and actions of the Bellevue foursome, the only logical conclusion is they did not go to Mark’s unannounced out of love to reconcile with a brother. If that was their intention and they felt so strongly about it, they would have continued seeking reconciliation until it was accomplished. That did not happen nor was it attempted. “To reconcile with a brother” was an excuse concocted to put a positive spin on their actions. In other words, that was a lie designed to hide the fact they wanted to intimidate Mark Sharpe into silence.
I recognize this sequence of events played out months ago. However, I see it as another crucial issue that has never been properly explored or considered. Apparent lies have been told from the pulpit that need to be corrected. Lying to the church is unacceptable.
Bellevue, do we still believe in truth?
Docbellevue-
Excellent post. Your logic is unassailable. It would be a good idea to continue this venue and present the remaining issues in this format. I know that it would be a great investment in time on your part, but the returns would be worth it.
Was my e-mail of help?
Marv-
To what are you referring as a circus?
AS
trollcates
Hi. I've been opting out of this exchange in recent days because this forum is for discussion of our church issues.
However, with all the talk about comparing philosophies, I thought I might make a comment.
I'm not teaching my kids blind faith. They know that scripture stands the test of historical and scientific study and that's why we believe it. It is not one man's word to all (although it is one God's word to all).
Other religions hinge on the word of one man or a pholosophy not based on any histoical facts.
Just the mere statistical impossiblity of all the OT prohpecies being fulfilled in the person of Christ is overwhelming evidence to give the Bible more crediblity over the words of, say, Mohammed or John Smith.
For instance, these religions balance precariously on the words of these men who , in my opinion, saw the angel of light himself (Satan) if they received enlightenment from a celestial being.
This, by the way,is also predicted in scripture, and Paul warned people about it.
Imaresitor...you said above: "...don't be railroaded" regarding movement of churches into the Purpose Driven Church movement. In recent years it seems that a number of conservative mega-churches are being taken over by pastors intent on moving toward the PDC movement, and intent on enriching themselves financially - "fleecing of the sheep". Most of these churches have had "pastor search committees" made up of laypeople who select these pastors, and I just wonder why it is that these committees have let their churches down. They agree to bring in these pastors at huge salaries, and agree to things that the congregation is NOT told before they take a vote on the new pastor (hmmm...a vote with one candidate....I wonder who wins). They aren't told of the financial "package" - salary, benefits, housing allowance, jobs at the church for relatives, reduced preaching responsibilities, etc. I wonder if these new pastors tell the search committee of their plans to change the church toward PDC, or if they just figure they will get put in power then make any change they want. Its very discouraging to see these pastors come in and make huge salaries above and beyond what their predecessors made (who were the ones who did the really hard work to build the church), then preach less, preach softer, give jobs to their relatives, and many other shenanigans that I could talk about. Why is this happening? Or maybe its gone on all along and now we're just seeing it with these new pastors?
offline until later
Allofgrace
I agree..Leading Question...should a pastor have a"Pastor"s Heart" whether he sheperds a small church or a mega church?
Docbellevue,
Are you Corey B. Trotz? We've needed a heavy hitter.
Thank you for another wonderful post.
There is no objective proof of Christ's existence or even a God? I'm not talking about feelings; they are not compelling to the non-believer.
Dear friend, I feel this exercise may be of no use. Christianity is founded on a philosophy, and since men wrote the Bible, it is man's philosophy. That is unless God whispered in the ears of its authors it contents, word for word then He watched over these disparate texts until they were complied for King James.
If you believe that--that's faith. May it comfort you. But other fundementalist peoples view their scriptures and Gods with the same blessed assurance and forward the same (non)rationales as you.
There is no where to go, in terms of a conversation. The intial give and take bears that out.
Let's stick to what unites us: the safety of children at Bellevue and accountability for its leadership.
docbellevue,
I agree with everything you said about the "itty bitty" fence etc.
I would like to back up a little and ask if you are anyone else knows if these same people tried to reconcile with Mr. Kelly the "amen" person? How did this effect him and his family and friends?
Wsere they just thrown out with the garabage? This has brothered me from the first time I heard of it.
God bless,
Also how would not a Pastor with a Pastors heart not want to shepard on a WEns Nite and get to know the flock better as he has only been here a little over a year?Sorry itt does not add up to me...
I think a compelling argument can be made for viewing the concept of original sin, along with the tapestry of doctrines hung upon it, is harmful to children and the people they grow up to be.
But again, if this is your path, embrace it and may it make you a virtuous and compassionate person.
Why don't some of you meet me Sunday at the BBC service.
respectfully,
David
Proverbs,
I checked and Josh Manning's blog is a Goggle Blogger account, just like NBBCOF. It is not hosted on Jim's server. Does Josh have another site I am unaware of?
Yes - http://joshuamanning.org/ is hosted on Jim's server.
so I can't understand why his website would be on Jim's server.
Can you clear this up for me?
I don't know why it's on his server too. I think it's because they are BFFs after the met each other ("Best Friends Forever"). Perhaps you could email Jim and ask him the questions I posted here for more information, as he said he is no longer going to reply to my emails. I must have hit a sore spot in my last email to him. Oh well, that's not my problem.
Concerned,
I too am concerned for Mr. Kelly. I cannot speak with certainty about his reaction. It is my understanding he has said he was hurt by what happened. He told a friend of mine he was disappointed his pastor did not care enough about him to address his concerns himself.
If you think about it, by engaging others to do his dirty work, Brother Steve needlessly added to Mr. Kelly's trauma and embarrassment. He certainly showed no compassion for this man, a member of Bellevue Baptitst Church who helps pay the pastor's salary.
I would expect more Christian love from our maintenace crew. What has happened to our entire ministerial staff?
docbellevue wrote: Sometimes the logical conclusion is false. If my conclusion is incorrect, then why not hold a meeting and get to the bottom of this? A simple denial by the pastor is insufficient. Brother Steve lied or a whole group of our staff have lied. Either way there must be consequences. How can we proclaim the truth of Scripture if our leaders are not truthful with us and with each other? We deserve to know the truth and we should demand it. This is not something that can be swept under the rug. I will remind the church of it until we get answers.
ROCK ON, Doc!! If only such a meeting were to ever take place! I requested as much via an email sent to some deacons back in early October as well as in a long conversation with a member of the "Smoke and Mirrors" Committee. It won't happen because I believe the truth is too damning to those involved. If it were not so, "logic dictates" (as Mr Spock would say) that there would have been one unless those running the show are managerially incompetent.
A friend of mine and I had lunch with a deacon - whom we have both known for 20+ years - back in October. I had one main question: If all this is false, why not bring the parties together, prove Mark Sharpe & Co wrong and put it to rest. The response? Dr Gaines was "protecting Bellevue" by not allowing such a meeting and that such a meeting would probably not put things to rest. Well, NOT having a meeting has done absolute wonders for things, don't you think?
For those of you that are holding on waiting for to things changing, I wouldn't hold my breath. Even when the attendance and "giving" starts to decline (which apparently it has), don't expect the "non-disclosure" crowd to be consistent and discern it as a sign of something being wrong. They will interpret it as a "sign of testing" and press on, not as an area of concern that is the flip side of their earlier "such-and-such-is-up, God-is-blessing, so-what-can-be-wrong?" argument.
I'm Ed Thompson, and I approve this message.
P.S. Doc, thanks again for your summary of the two events. I have copied it into a Word document which I will offer to supply to those who ask why we left Bellevue. I'll have to add a few additional notes for our particular instance, but it's a good start.
In my prior post I did not intend to disparage our maintenance crew. They do a fine job. However, I believe our ministers should be held to a higher standard than other BBC employees. In this instance I believe the average BBC employee would have shown more compassion for Mr. Kelly than was shown by the pastor.
This warrants reposting!!!!!
Bloggers,
ACE & 4545 post for one purpose and one purpose only. Their sole purpose is to be antagonistic. As long as ya'll waste your precious time and talent feeding them, they will continue to play their game. If you ignore them, then they will soon go away. Ya'll need to FOCUS, FOCUS, FOCUS on the problems at BBC and quit playing into the TROLL's hands by playing their game. I know that it is hard to resist taking their BAIT, but you must RESIST THE TEMPTATION
Thank you Ed_T,
Hold you hat, things are happening. You are likely to see an escalation of events and news. In the coming days my bet is you will see things begin happening at a fast and furious pace. Too many people are too upset about too many things. This will never die down until matters are resolved. A resolution absent truth is impossible.
You mentioned the giving, I believe it is beginning to sting them. They are unwilling to purchase more plastic sacks for the library right now. When there is a money crunch, small things like that are often the leading signs of a problem.
Will you be quiet, Charlie? As long as this blog exists, I will be here...I am not going anywhere, sorry. We saw your first post, there isn't a need to post that twenty more times. Grow up.
docbellevue,
My father spoke to Mr. Kelly directly and Mr. Kelly said he was apologized to. He didn't say who apologized, nor did my daddy ask him. Just thought you'd like to know.
trollcates,
Are you still looking for someone to meet you at BBC on Sunday? My husband, Randy and I would love to. Wanna do lunch as well? Email me!
karen
ace, are you daft? joshualmanning.org is a post of a news article, not an evil, nefarious "blog". It barely would classify as a web site. No other links presently on the "site"...nothing to do with BBC, Inc whatsoever.
If you want to contribute to these issues, do something of substance (such as providing a LOGICAL answer to docbellevue's summarization of issues) instead of worrying about a solitary news article unrelated to BBC being hosted on Jim Haywood's web server.
Get over it and as you told me once...."grow up". :)
#$%^&$#....stupid me...there I go feeding the TROLLS again. Sorry :(
Once again, I'm Ed Thompson, and I approve this message.
ace,
chill, buddy - everyone get off each other's backs and stick to the facts. Love all y'all!
karen
Cases of child abuse in the Bible:
Genesis: Noah (spiritually) abused his grandson.
Exodus:
1:22 And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying, Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save alive.
Aslan's Own & Westnbearrister, are you buddies going to add to the topic on Abraham?
I love my church: Are you Mrs. Rogers?
(offline)
Well, doc, things may pick up, but it won't change our decision. We made our decision to leave (after 25+ years) and whether or not things get resolved at BBC is moot at this point. I pray they will, but the Lord has lead us to serve elsewhere. At present we are not sure where that is, but we believe it is becoming clearer much sooner than we expected.
I don't doubt your comments. I'm told by an ex-deacon and others close to the situation that there's still much to be known about the situation at Bellevue. It may very well get even uglier before it's all said and done.
Ed,
ace, are you daft? joshualmanning.org is a post of a news article,
Congratulations, you're right, would you like a cookie as a reward?
not an evil, nefarious "blog".
I never called it a blog. You're making stuff up... read my posts carefully, mkay?
It barely would classify as a web site. No other links presently on the "site"...nothing to do with BBC, Inc whatsoever.
I didn't say it had anything to do with BBC, so quit assuming stuff, please. And, yes, it is classified as a website. #1 - there is a domain.... #2 - there is hosting....therefore, it is a website.
Please don't assume things just because 'Ace' posted. Read and have an open mind.
to the board..
I apologize for my engagement of Ace earlier in this thread.
Ace,
I do not apologize to you for what I said to you, I do apologize for the rude tone.
I firmly believe you and the men you are working for, will one day have to give an account for the way you and they have acted in this situation. The leaders of this church are the ones ordained to be the solution to this sort of conflict, and their refusal to do so is causing spiritual and emotional damage to the flock. (Not to mention scattering it.)
Not a week goes by nowadays that you don't hear of another long time teacher that has resigned their class, another deacon or long time "engaged" member joining another church. For example, the college department Sunday School teachers have been decimated over the past 6 months. These are not the 'casual" members. These are the people that have served faithfully for years. Committee chairmen and members. Deacons and Sunday School teachers. Long time SCT and MPP volunteers. Some reports say that between 2000 and 3000 people have left or are no longer attending over the past 12 months. Were all those people that ungodly that we have to get rid of them before God can work at Bellevue?? In that case, one can only draw the conclusion that Dr. Rogers was spiritually bankrupt, and large numbers of ungodly yet faithful people were able to be comfortable serving week after week, year after year at Bellevue without being convicted. How can anyone say that about the former Pastor with a straight face is beyond me.
I just do not understand how anyone can say that God is behind what the leadership is doing at Bellevue right now. There are too many personal agendas, egos and careers involved for there to be any credibility to "just trust me". A little transparency and accountability would go a long way to solving this dispute. I challenge you to open the books now before the membership, before they are opened before the World on Judgment Day.
BibleInAYear,
I love my church: Are you Mrs. Rogers?
You have got to be kidding me. I love my church has the most hateful posts here from anyone. Because of that, I think it's safe to assume she's not Mrs. Rogers.
Well, Charlie, do you think it would be safe to say that Ace is the Mark Sharpe of this blogging world?
He disagrees with the way things are being handled.
He speaks out about what he thinks that he sees and tries to tell others.
You may not like the way he goes about it, but he is entitled to do it, just like MS and JH. I don't like the way that they have handled things, but it was their right to do it.
I ask again, does anyone here not see the irony in 'just ignoring them and hoping they will be quiet and go away?'.
The purpose of this blog is stated as "to provide a place where those who are seriously concerned about the issues facing Bellevue Baptist Church can come to comment and exchange ideas"
You may not agree with their comments or ideas, but quite frankly that doesn't matter. As long as they are discussing the issues, they have as much right to be here as anyone else.
FinanceGuy,
I firmly believe you and the men you are working for, will one day have to give an account for the way you and they have acted in this situation.
I am not working for anyone. How many times do I have to say that? I mean, come on... Please get your facts straight.
ED_T,
That ACE knows of that microsite tells me the church is pulling out the stops investigating him. When you search Joshua Manning in google, that site does not come up in the first three pages of results, if ever. Someone had to dig to find that. Perhaps someone else mentioned the site on the blog months ago. However, I have reason to believe they are investigating others, so it makes sense they would investigate Josh.
Watch out everyone.
Yes, if ACE and the pastor are exampled of spirit-filled, I am hateful and hate-filled.
My posts seek to tell the truth, they call that hate. Liberals love to redefine common terms.
I am absolutely not Mrs. Rogers.
Ace,
Nice way to try to defect attention from the substance of my comment. You most certainly are working for them. You may be employed somewhere else, and not doing any business with the church or any of these men. Or you could be Steve Gaines or Harry Smith , or a 4 year old girl. Until you reveal yourself, you can say anything you want to without accountability.
However, you ARE working for them on this blog. You are their defender and advocate, wherever or however you are being compensated.
Sorry...
I didn't realize you were here ILMC.
I was just leaving, but if you are not Mrs. Rogers you have me intrigued...
Are you Mrs. Whitmire?
P.s. I meant it as a compliment when I asked if you were Mrs. Rogers. No need to take it as anything other than a generous compliment.
This warrants reposting!!!!!
Bloggers,
ACE & 4545 post for one purpose and one purpose only. Their sole purpose is to be antagonistic. As long as ya'll waste your precious time and talent feeding them, they will continue to play their game. If you ignore them, then they will soon go away. Ya'll need to FOCUS, FOCUS, FOCUS on the problems at BBC and quit playing into the TROLL's hands by playing their game. I know that it is hard to resist taking their BAIT, but you must RESIST THE TEMPTATION
I love my church,
That ACE knows of that microsite tells me the church is pulling out the stops investigating him.
No, the church has not investigated him. Ace, on the other hand, has. There is a huge difference there.
FinanceGuy,
Whatever... you have a unique way of thinking...and that's all I'll say.
I did not take offense. For Mrs. Rogers' sake, I felt it was important.
I am not a Whitmire.
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