Story and video links to this story are here.
Commentary by Don Boys.
Trinity Baptist College forum.
More Jacksonville TV coverage.
This is part of a letter received from a group of concerned FBC Jacksonville members:
"We are a group of very concerned FBC Jax members because of recent changes since Mac Brunson came to the church in March '06. Absent the PW mess and the "itty bitty fence" fiasco, there are quite a few similarities between these two men who have taken over at FBC Jax and BBC. But that is not why I'm writing.
"One of our concerns that has surfaced in the last few days is whether Mac Brunson will still allow Steve Gaines to have a Keynote speaking slot at the Feb 2007 Pastors' Conference given the gravity of SG's situation at BBC. While we don't want SG to come, we would think that the concerned members of BBC also don't want FBC Jax to show support to Steve Gaines by allowing him to still have a prominent speaking slot. I would like to see a link at the www.savingbellevue.com site drawing attention to the fact that SG is still slated for a Keynote speaking slot at this Pastors' Conference attended by 5000+ pastors. Perhaps this would help some of the speakers to ask Mac Brunson to pull the plug on SG's slot."
"FriendinJax" wrote:
"Sorry to hear that the pastor at my church, Mac Brunson, didn't respond to your concerns about SG being on the Pastors' Conference agenda in February. I know that some FBC Jax church members have contacted Jeanie Blaylock at First Coast News, who is the reporter who broke the Messer/Trinity Baptist stories to let her know of the Bellevue/Gaines/PW situation. Jeanie is a member at FBC Jacksonville, and I hope she will be as upset as many of the FBC Jax members are about Steve Gaines having a prominent role at the Pastors' Conference. Perhaps her disgust over Messer's hiding of the truth [is such] that she will be disgusted with Mac for keeping SG on the agenda - and maybe she'll do a piece on it."
Mac Brunson's e-mail address is here for anyone who'd like to contact him regarding Steve Gaines' speaking engagement at the Pastors' Conference February 2-6, 2007. Choose "pastor" from the drop-down list on that page. You must sign your name if you expect a reply.
Ms. Blaylock's e-mail address is in the article in the first link above.
Note: January 4th's letters to the editor of the Commercial Appeal are here. You may recognize the names of a couple of the authors.
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502 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 502 Newer› Newest»Fedup,
I agree 4545 does not understand sexual molestation. However, the other possibility is he understands it just fine but has chosen to ignore it for personal reasons. What Brother Steve said about forgiveness notwithstanding, there is no moral, legal, or biblical reason to ignore child molestation. What you see from 4545 is the degree of contempt the Bellevue leadership has for a segment of the membership. I hear the same vitriolic nonsense in person.
Ace, you aren't vitriolic. You are actually likeable in your own way. Because I like you I will give you a little hint - no real man uses the word "precious" more than once or twice a year. You have exceeded your quota.
4545 said...
"Again, why are we not listed on the Willow Creek website as a member?"
10:38 PM, January 04, 2007
4545-
I can address this issue with irrefutable fact:
Last August, after doing some research on the Purpose Driven Church Movement and some of the standout churches involved, I became aware that Bellevue had, indeed, turned up on the Willow Creek Association Registry. This is fact. This information began to circulate, and people began to question our church leadership about why we would associate ourselves with such an institution as Willow Creek.
At that time, BBC leadership said we joined simply to save money on copyright releases for music. Then, BBC leadership denied that we were members at all, and Bellevue’s name disappeared from the Willow Creek registry.
I personally called Willow Creek and inquired about our membership. They gave me the date our membership was activated, our member number, and told me that our membership “was good through July of ’07.” She even referred to a cancelled check they had received by mail. She had no idea why our name was no longer showing up on the Willow Creek Website, since there was “no problem at all with our membership.” I asked her if a member church could request to have their name withheld from the public registry, and she said yes, although she couldn’t imagine why they would want to.
Ultimately, the membership was terminated and money refunded, per BBC leadership.
Would we still be “Creekers” today had we “troublemakers” not made so much noise?
Just another stepping stone on the quest for the Truth…….
CJesusinMe,
If you associate that as being "anti-Gaines", well you said that, not any of us!
Yes, that's what I'm associating you with. You never said it, I did. And that's the thing. I never said that you said you were anti-Gaines. FedUp, however, has accused me of being a supporter of child molesting. There is a HUGE difference there. I never said you guys said anything.
ace,
As the lovely delicate flower blogmaster that you are on your blog. Under the "encouragement to the pastor" thread would you please explain why you deleted my post.
I only kindly "Encouraged the Pastor to Resign".
Over the weekend a huge sporting event occurred. The CEO of a multi-million-dollar company (that sponsored the sporting event)took many members of his family and paid for them out of his own pocket...as he should. Which brings me to SG and the trip to Gatlinburg. Many of his family/friend of family attended this event. It is my understanding that "room" had to be
made in the budget to accommodate the visitors, is this true? Was SG paid (on top of his salary)to speak at this event? What about the Thomas Kinkade picture that was given to him? Was that on top of the payment that was on top of the salary? How many kids didn't get to go because of these extras? (I'm not saying there were any, just wondering).I don't know the answers to these questions and I'm not very confident that I will ever know. I have my own ideas, but that sure won't get me very far at Bellevue!
I Love My Church,
Ace, you aren't vitriolic.
First of all, where in the world did you get that word from? :)
Because I like you I will give you a little hint - no real man uses the word "precious" more than once or twice a year.
Maybe so, but that phrase is a trademarked phrase of Ace...therefore I can use it infinity times a year. Thank you for the hint, though!
Tim,
I only kindly "Encouraged the Pastor to Resign".
Your post wasn't a letter. It was not encouragement. It was full of questions and there was not an ounce of encouragement in it:
And I quote:
At what point should Steve Resign?
How much further disgrace must he cause himself?
How much further disgrace must he cause the Rogers' family?
How much further should he be allowed to disgrace the church?
How much further should he be allowed to compromise the integrity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
It is obvious in my opinion that the integrity and leadership of Steve Gaines is severly lacking.
Timmy....I deleted it because I didn't want others laughing at you since you couldn't follow simple instructions.
bballermom:
You speak well for the former Bellevue members who must be as heartbroken over this situation as so many of us current members are.
We know the legacy that Dr. Rogers left behind and we so regret that his integrity has been questioned by the self-serving statements that have been made from our pulpit.
We are heartbroken over the treatment his precious Joyce and his dear friend, Jim Whitmire have endured as well.
Dr. Rogers' integrity is one of the things I am sure of. He was a true man of God. His messages showed so much prayerful preparation, were delivered is such an anointed way and his life proved he believed every word of what he preached. His invitations were a sermon in themselves. Oh, how I miss him!
Thank you for caring and please pray for us and our church.
Ace
Are you a" Lord of the Rings " fan.
BTW you are likeable,but every time you say ""precious the image of Gollum cluthing the ring comes to mind .
Night dude
NThePew,
Believe it or not, I've never seen any of the Lord of the Rings trilogy...
ace wrote:
"And to our lovely blogmaster... "
Why, thank you, Ace! How did you know I'm lovely? Of course, I am, but you couldn't possibly have known that!
Could you please explain why other people can post stuff like that?"
You've been advised before that if you don't like it here, you're welcome to go start your own forum and allow people to post whatever they wish there. Oh, wait. I understand you've done just that... except people aren't allowed to post their opinions there unless they agree with yours. What is it you call it -- this? Hmmm... there's that pot calling the kettle names again. It's past your bedtime, Precious! Nightie night!
cjesusnme
You've got some more mail.
What has the American education system come to? "Vitriolic" is an adjective. It means abusive or venomous language used to express blame or censure or bitter deep-seated ill will, subject to bitter verbal abuse, something highly caustic or severe in effect, as criticism. [syn: vituperation]
I don't normally use that word either. Someone much smarter than you and me used that word in an email and I liked it so much I wrote it down. This smart someone posts on this blog.
Piglet, I need to come clean. I also stole the "circular firing squad" reference from smart someone. I told him what I thought was happening inside the church and he came up with that description.
NBBCOF,
Why, thank you, Ace! How did you know I'm lovely? Of course, I am, but you couldn't possibly have known that!
Everyone here knows that. Duh.
You've been advised before that if you don't like it here, you're welcome to go start your own forum ...blah blah blah blah blah
Alright, I see your post, but you never answered my question. Will you please answer it? If you don't want to post it publicly, feel free to email me. It just seems like there are some double standards around here and you are mistreating me because you disagree with me. I'm just wondering...
It's past your bedtime, Precious! Nightie night!
Sshhhh...please don't tell my parents I'm awake....I'll get in a lot of trouble...
I Love My Church,
I don't normally use that word either. Someone much smarter than you and me used that word...
No doubt about that...
Folks,
Please see the post that "Ace" made regarding my letter, "Encouraging the Pastor to Resign". Honestly, I felt that someone needed to encourage him to do it.
Tim,
How is there encouragement in what I posted? Oh wait, there's not.
Oh, my goodness, now I've seen everything!
I followed the link to Ace's website and I'm once again stunned:
Let me see if I get this right:
1. This website is in support of Steve Gaines and by way of him, Bellevue?
2. Steve Gaines is the same fellow who stood in Bellevue's pulpit and left it to everyone's interpretation whether or not Dr. Adrian Rogers was the one who knew about Paul Williams?
3. Steve Gaines is the same fellow who has yet to issue any public statement that Dr. Rogers did not know, even after Mrs. Joyce Rogers requested that be done?
4. And now on Ace's website, he is linking viewers to Love Worth Finding to get information on how to accept Christ!
How disrespectful! You are supporting men who won't clear the cloud of insinuation about Dr. Rogers, but you can use that precious man and his ministry for your purposes?? This has all gotten far too complicated. May God have mercy!
Ema,
4. And now on Ace's website, he is linking viewers to Love Worth Finding to get information on how to accept Christ!
This point just stuck out to me. God forbid someone come to Christ out of this whole ordeal... really, you should be ashamed of even mentioning that point.
Note: sarcasm in the first part of my last post...
Ace
Are you Michael Ayers?
Now, don't be telling any lies about this....;)
Ace:
I should be ashamed?? I'm not questioning that any lost person should be pointed toward anything that can help them in their acceptance of Christ or toward maturity in their walk with him, but why not use the link to Bellevue and let your beloved Steve Gaines minister to them?
And while I'm at it, how do you defend that a statement has not yet been issued stating unequivocally that Dr. Rogers knew nothing about this. After all, Paul Williams himself said so???
Piglet,
Are you Michael Ayers?
No...
I'm going to bed. Goodnight, folks.
Ema said...
Oh, my goodness, now I've seen everything!
I followed the link to Ace's website and I'm once again stunned:
Let me see if I get this right:
1. This website is in support of Steve Gaines and by way of him, Bellevue?
2. Steve Gaines is the same fellow who stood in Bellevue's pulpit and left it to everyone's interpretation whether or not Dr. Adrian Rogers was the one who knew about Paul Williams?
3. Steve Gaines is the same fellow who has yet to issue any public statement that Dr. Rogers did not know, even after Mrs. Joyce Rogers requested that be done?
4. And now on Ace's website, he is linking viewers to Love Worth Finding to get information on how to accept Christ!
How disrespectful! You are supporting men who won't clear the cloud of insinuation about Dr. Rogers, but you can use that precious man and his ministry for your purposes?? This has all gotten far too complicated. May God have mercy!
Let's slow down just a little on this. Regardless of how any of us feel about this church situation, our foremost task in life is to spread the Gospel of Christ. And I can think of no better link than the LWF site. Furthermore, I would encourage NASS to post the same link to home page of this forum.
Hey Ace-
Ok…actually, I must admit that I laughed out loud earlier when you referenced that you had not seen any of the ‘Lord of the Rings’ movies. Reason: I also had the thought of gollum saying “precioussssss.”
You may want to consider consulting with Mike Bratton, the Human Thesaurus, for an alternative to the word “precious” because he is quite sharp and very witty.
Ace,
Duh.. It clearly stated
Encouragement to Resign.
Ema,
...but why not use the link to Bellevue and let your beloved Steve Gaines minister to them?
So you're attacking the site because it doesn't link to Bellevue? Huh? You're not making much sense.
And while I'm at it, how do you defend that a statement has not yet been issued stating unequivocally that Dr. Rogers knew nothing about this.
I don't know. I'm not Steve Gaines.
Astounded,
And I can think of no better link than the LWF site. Furthermore, I would encourage NASS to post the same link to home page of this forum.
Thank you very much for your post...it is appreciated. And I second that idea that it should be posted here.
4545 may be Steve Gaines. Ask him.
What happened to Straining Gnats..hmmmm?
Tim,
He has received encouragement to resign from friends in high places. He only takes counsel from himself.
Before anyone laughs, those who have encouraged him to resign are his friends. If this goes on much longer he will have no credibility left. If he left today he would still be employable somewhere with a lower profile. He might even be able to take a faction of BBC with him to a new church here in Memphis.
If he got out now there would still be some out there in the SBC that believe he was not accepted because he was not Adrian Rogers or because all of you hate contemporary Christian music. I know that is nonsense. You have to know that up until the PW story got out, that was the overwhelming assumption in SBC circles.
That being said, Steve is not likely to get out now. He does not realize the determination of those who see through him. He must know many on staff, many deacns, and many of the regular members will never ever trust him again. There are some lines in life you cannot cross. Sadly, he has crossed more than one of those lines. He will foolishly hang on until the nuclear bomb goes off. He will wait until he has totally destroyed himself and Donna too. He will have no reputation left. If he is not careful he will ruin himself financially too. He might even ruin his marriage.
Steve, for the sake of your wife and children, for the sake of Bellevue, for the sake of the memories of Lee, Pollard, and Rogers, please resign! Donna encourage him to resign. This isn't Gardendale or Jackson. There was no need for tearing down and plucking. He made a serious misjudgment. He allowed his ego to cloud his thinking. Now he stands on the verge of ruin.
Please, before the next shoe drops (and we know it is going to).
Do I hear a motion from anyone and a second that my original message on the "ACE" propaganda blog to sincerely "Encourage the Pastor to Resign" be restored to its proper place.
Motion?
and a second?
all in favor?
I think the I's have it ACE.
ace said...
Thank you very much for your post...it is appreciated. And I second that idea that it should be posted here.
Bottom line, let us all remember the ultimate goal, regardless of which side of the 43" fence we stand on.
astounded said:
"Let's slow down just a little on this. Regardless of how any of us feel about this church situation, our foremost task in life is to spread the Gospel of Christ. And I can think of no better link than the LWF site. Furthermore, I would encourage NASS to post the same link to home page of this forum."
Astounded,
You are right and I'm sorry I said that the way I did. It could have been worded differently and Ace, I apologize to you for the wording. The purpose of our being alive is to spread the Gospel of Jesus.
I stand by my belief that you should have made your link to Bellevue, since the contoversy about whether Dr. Rogers did or did not know about PW is such an integral part of this problem.
In my human weakness, I am upset over the treatment Dr. Rogers and his family are getting at the hands of Steve Gaines and Company. One simple statement clearing up the misconception would be so easy, so why are they refusing?
i love my church,
I am certain that Bellevue would gladly donate $15-20 Million to build a church ...oh at a prime location say like Collierville. Seems to me that maybe someone owns some property out that way that they might be willing to donate to that cause. And perhaps they could get some horses and have a saddlemaker donate some saddles. Then they could own their own little church out in the country.
Ema said...
astounded said:
"Let's slow down just a little on this. Regardless of how any of us feel about this church situation, our foremost task in life is to spread the Gospel of Christ. And I can think of no better link than the LWF site. Furthermore, I would encourage NASS to post the same link to home page of this forum."
Astounded,
You are right and I'm sorry I said that the way I did. It could have been worded differently and Ace, I apologize to you for the wording. The purpose of our being alive is to spread the Gospel of Jesus.
I stand by my belief that you should have made your link to Bellevue, since the contoversy about whether Dr. Rogers did or did not know about PW is such an integral part of this problem.
No apology needed on my account. Just trying to help us all keep our feet grounded and our eyes looking skyward.
I really think it should be considered a compliment that Ace is using LWF as a link to salvation. Ace has never questioned Dr. Rogers' commitment to spreading the Gospel.
I love my church,
Also I believe that there is a church out in Germantown looking for a new pastor, what with his recommendation from Sam Shaw, I would be willing to bet that he would be a shoe in.
I just thought of some really funny stuff that I better not post.
Laughing on my way to bed .. heh heh.
4545,
I could be more specific, but will wait to see if the administration decides to do the right thing or if they need to be pressed on the issue. I would hope for once that they decide to do what is right and not require that someone hold their feet to the fire.
Tim,
With Sam Shaw and Mac Brunson in your corner, you can't go wrong. Maybe he can get an endorsement from Frank Harbor too. Another ego-maniac.
http://www.localnewsonly.com/2006lno/news/july2006/06_07_30harber.htm
http://www.localnewsonly.com/2006lno/news/06_03_07colleyfirstbaptist.htm
Repost from earlier this evening.
LISTEN UP! NOT MEANING TO SHOUT BUT WHAT IS GOING TO BE SAID NEEDS SOME CAREFUL THOUGHT.
-----------------------------
If he had done something immediately it would have
1) Solidified his support at Bellevue,
2) Silenced his opposition and
3) Secured a SBC Presidency for him.
Steve Gaines was well aware of the potential political glory that could immediately be obtained by acting on this issue. It would have made him the hero of Bellevue. The "spin committee” knew that this was the goose that laid the proverbial golden egg.
However, there was a problem. There was some reason that it could not be done. There is a definite reason that it could not be acted on.
Even after the situation became public, he could not release Paul Williams. He had to be placed on paid leave.
Paul Williams was seen, immediately after being placed on leave, trotting about town, Christmas shopping, happy as a lark, without a worry in the world.
I want to refute the "heartfelt compassion" argument that was presented. I will virtually guarantee that Steve Gaines first thought when he was told about this was his own children. Had they ever at any time been alone with this man? There is not a parent on earth with a shred of decency that would not have immediately thought about that. I don't care how religious you might be. Following that thought would have been absolute and total disgust. So someone please tell me where "heartfelt compassion" became worked into this.
This leads me to this conclusion. There is something that is just as deep and heinous that has yet to be revealed. It may not be revealed in the churches official January 16th report. If it is not then I would wait to see what action is taken by the DA’s office, because there is no doubt that this puzzle is missing some pieces.
10:59 PM, January 04, 2007
Folks,
I'm not bashing the content of Ace's (and the others') site at all. My point was that it's hypocritical to come here and criticize me for not "moderating" the comments according to Ace's tastes while he moderates the comments on his forum as he sees fit. I couldn't care less how Ace and his colleagues choose to censor posts on their site, and I wouldn't think of advising them in their roles. All I ask is that Ace extend me the same courtesy and not continue to come here and tell me what I should and shouldn't allow on this forum. It's a double standard, and he sounds like a broken record. (Ace, I realize you're too young to remember records, but you can read about them here.) One might even say your arguments are path... excuse me... something special.
NBBCOF
i love my church said...
Please, before the shoe drops (and we know it is going to).
And
tim said...
I would be willing to bet that he would be a shoe in.
Is the "shoe" word a cue for me to enter this conversation or has it become a secret code word?
Dee
Dee,
There are no hidden messages in my posts. I am not that smart. Join the fray.
Dee,
I think it was just a coincidence, but if the "shoe" fits... feel free to jump in.
Here is an interesting read....
Carl Laney laments, "The church today is suffering from an infection which has been allowed to fester. . . . As an infection weakens the body by destroying its defense mechanisms, so the church has been weakened by this ugly sore. The church has lost its power and effectiveness in serving as a vehicle for social, moral, and spiritual change. This illness is due, at least in part, to a neglect of church discipline."
The mandate of the church is to maintain true gospel doctrine and order. A church lacking these essential qualities is, biblically defined, not a true church. That is a hard word, for it clearly indicts thousands of American congregations who long ago abandoned this essential mark, and have accommodated themselves to the spirit of the age. Fearing lawsuits and lacking courage, these churches allow sin to go unconfronted, and heresy to grow unchecked.
John Leadley Dagg, the author of a well-known and influential church manual of the nineteenth century, noted, "It has been remarked, that when discipline leaves a church, Christ goes with it." If so, and I fear it must be so, Christ has abandoned many churches who are blissfully unaware of his departure.
http://www.albertmohler.com/commentary_read.php?cdate=2005-05-13
(NASS - very sorry; I really tried to make that a link!)
Don't you feel a true kinship with each other after posting on this site for awhile now? I do.
Dee
be-still-and-know (from one of my favorite verses),
Try this. :-)
2006huldah,
Uh, kind of like "sole" sisters?
Yeah, NASS,
"Sole" sisters or "Step" sisters.
Boy! You are perkier than I am right now. I'm about to fall asleep at the wheel here. I have had 3 very busy days with a 3-year-old who just left my house about 9:30 tonight.
I did make time during her nap to call BBC and MABTS to voice my support of Mike Spradlin. I emailed GH at LWF and said the same, but I doubt that he would be surprised to actually hear me say it.
Thank you, NASS!
Psalm 46
1 God is our refuge and strength, an ever-present help in trouble.
2. Therefore, we will not fear, though the earth give way, and the mountains fall into the heart of the sea, though its waters roar and foam and the mountains quake with their surging.
10 BE STILL, AND KNOW THAT I AM GOD; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth.
11 The Lord Almighty is with us; the God of Jacob is our fortress.
Another of Be-still’s favorites:
Psalm 121
3 He will not let your foot slip- he who watches over you will not slumber; indeed, he who watches over Israel will neither slumber nor sleep.
8 the Lord will watch over your coming and going both now and forevermore.
And finally:
Psalm 127:2…for he grants sleep to those he loves.
Goodnight!
WTB,
Yea I guess Dr. Boice's book is a concession by Lifeway to the fact that the cultic Calvinists just aren't going to go away..I even managed to find a book by Michael Horton (White Horse Inn) there a while back. I am surprised that Boice's book managed to get a "recommended" tag though.
david s,
The subject of selling sermons came up, thus the post and link I gave to a blogpost about Ed Young Jr. and his internet enterprise...no direct connection to SG.
westtnbarrister and imaresistor: I wrote Paul Proctor. Thought you would find this interesting.
Mr. Proctor,
I am very concerned with the direction the SBC is taking with regard to Warrenism, CGM, etc. What can we do to help the SBC see that they are off the "narrow road" and get some Biblical accountability back?
It's much like a corrupt church, (name removed). You warn them of their error and call for their repentance. If they ignore you - you move on and separate yourself from their fellowship.
That's essentially what I have done because they have been repeatedly warned and they are only getting in deeper and deeper.
I mean, Richard Land, the head of the ethics branch of the SBC is now on The Council on Foreign Relations - an occult-led world government organization - so is the SBC's premier pastor, Rick Warren!
“Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.” – 2nd Corinthians 6:14-17
“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.” – Galatians 1:8
“And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.” – Ephesians 5:11
“Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.” – 1st Timothy 5:20
“If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.” – 1st Timothy 6:3-5
“But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing. And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother” (2 Thessalonians 3:13-15)
“Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you”- 2 Thessalonians 3:6
“A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject”— Titus 3:10
“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds” - 2nd John 1: 9-11
If you guys have not been listening to Dr. Rogers on 640am this week @ 7am you are missing some dynamite messages.
Thanks, GBC_member, I don't get to listen to the radio much and didn't realize this. I'll put it on my calendar!
There goes 4545 again!
Once again unable or unwilling to keep to the subject matter and the overwhelming facts and speak to those. Again he resorts to name calling and deciding that everyone who doesn't agree with him is unloving and un-Christ-like.
4545, stop attacking people and the "blog" and start to discuss the facts. The Name calling you are guilty of is your way of sriking back at ideas and facts you don't like being true and cannot accept.
Read your missives. You are the one guilty of what you have accused others of doing.
I have never done it but they do offer a podcast of LWF if you can't catch the radio boradcast.
LW Podcast
Be still...
I too can verify your post concerning Willow Creek and Bellevue....after taking our name off of the willow creek website Bellevue then joined an organization in Nashville...which I have been told cost 'quite a bit more $' could it be A Group? It might be interesting to find out..
Belle...
I do wonder why SG was the speaker at Gatlinburg, how he was paid, if there was a waiting list to go what happened to those waiting while the SG group went, who paid for their trip vouchers and how much, & what about the T. Kinkaid art?
Can anyone vouch for expenses.. (pun intended) tee hee
I wonder if any of the parents gave any thoughts to who went along on the trip that SG was/is covering for now and the safety of their children?
And the STAND O'S MAKE ME SICK..
Is there any doubt that those who are connected with "savingbellevue" have scripture on their side? Or, I should say, are adhearing to and following what the Word of God insturcts us to do?
And those who are for what is now going on at Bellevue and supporting the CEO and those in power are doing are are following a personality and being manipulated by emotions?
There has been verse after vers of scripture used correctly; rightly being divided that shows all the way this "self induced" mess could and ought to be cleared up. But how interesting there is a blatant refusal to follow the Lord on this. Instead, there is a corrupt man made investigation. By the way, I still cannot figure out what there is to investigate while keeping the confessed-one on the pay roll.
AND...
JOSH WILL BE GREATLY MISSED!!!!
We need to be careful when being a Baptist becomes more important than being a Christian. When your identity of being a Baptist becomes more important and superceeds your identity of being a Christian.
It was aproximently a year ago when we had an entire "talk series" in church by sg, on what it was to be a Baptist. WHY I'M A BAPTIST, I think it was called. It was disturbing at that time to see how much emphasis was given to the work and a denomination of men, and how little to being a follower of Christ alone.
What is this movement of building up the BAPTIST denomination and identity as a BAPTIST? Obviously there is a distinguished difference in the two, by the very nature of the subject.
It is the same difference as following Purpose DRIVEN rather than the Word of God in the church.
I wonder if this is what they call the beginnings of apostacy?
AMEN twice to rod's comment on the Baptist series by the reverend. And, by the way, our primary calling is to become more like Jesus. Soul winning is a by-product of that process.
allofgrace said...
WTB,
Yea I guess Dr. Boice's book is a concession by Lifeway to the fact that the cultic Calvinists just aren't going to go away..I even managed to find a book by Michael Horton (White Horse Inn) there a while back. I am surprised that Boice's book managed to get a "recommended" tag though.
7:03 AM, January 05, 2007
I just assumed some Satanic cultist moved the tag. After all there is way more money to be made in Armageddon countdown, Rick Warren Bible Study methods (first, open The Message to John 3:16...), or Christian Yoga books.
By the way, I still cannot figure out what there is to investigate while keeping the confessed-one on the pay roll.
They are following the advice of men (lawyers) instead of the advice of God (scripture).
Christian yoga? Isn't that an oxymoron?
to Rod Almondmartanti: Speaking for myself, I am a Christian, a follower of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, FIRST. I have been a Southern Baptist all my life because, after studying the Baptist Faith and Message, I believe that this denomination was based completely on scripture and I believed the interpretation presented of that scripture. I do desire to worship with like-minded, equally yoked brothers and sisters in Christ. That is why I chose to be a Baptist. But when the Baptist leadership chooses to go against scripture, you are right; I will have to reevaluate. Believing the SBC was a strong, Biblical accountable leadership, to see it falter concerns me greatly because I do believe together we can reach more for Jesus.
fedup said- It is clear that 4545 neither understands or cares about the risk of children in churches from sexual predators.
REPLY- That is a bold faced lie!! I am so sick of you and others putting words in my mouth. Sick of it. If you post something about me, quote me or post facts. Do NOT post what you think you know or what you think I think. That is the problem on here. It is a huge group of people posting junk and only about 5% have any facts to go on. Are there some facts on here, yes. There is also a TON or rumors, attacks and on and on. This stuff and this blog has taken over many of your lives. Do not be deceived that you are doing God's work.
New BBC Open Forum said...
Christian yoga? Isn't that an oxymoron?
Oh, you must have missed it. W Publishing, an imprint of Thomas Nelson, published "Yoga for Christians: A Christ-Centered Approach to Physical and Spiritual Health through Yoga" in 2006.
And there was "Invitation to Christian Yoga" by Seabury books.
Then we have the classic "Prayer of Heart and Body: Meditation and Yoga As Christian Spiritual Practice" written by the same guy who put out a DVD called "Yoga Prayer."
There was also a series of videos called "Outstretched in Worship: A Christian approached Yoga."
Sadly, I could go on.
FYI...
A group says...
I was fortunate to be on the onset of a church that grew to megachurch status in a very short period of time. Our brand statement was, and still is "Real Hope for Real People in the Real World." And boy, did we keep it real! The way we used music, graphic arts and language reflected a church very much in tune with popular culture. We wanted to keep it real and we did. "The church for people who don't like church"
WHERE IS JESUS IN THIS STATEMENT??
I pray Bellevue is not a member/client ?
AOG,
Did you get a chance to check out that message I emailed you about? After I saw the post yesterday about Boice and the response from that lady, it really got me to thinking about how easily we jump to conclusions about people - sometimes just taking the word of others.
I have checked out some of these sites that seem to have their whole aim being "watchdogs". Some of the things are right on, but sometimes these accusations get repeated without people doing their research for themselves and we have to be careful about that because even some of these folks running these sites have "agendas". I know this to be a fact through personal experience. And when we repeat them we wound and speak against brothers and sisters. Many of these things (not all) fall under the pale of orthodoxy, and as Dr Rogers used to say we can't be "bulldogmatic" about those things that aren't essentials.
The other day I saw some castigate of all people Beth Moore about being a "contemplative" and I wondered if they really knew what they were talking about and what they meant by that.
By the way, I have been listening to the LWF podcasts all the way over here in Thailand. This week's are like someone there off Stage Road has been reading this blog. Even yesterday or the day before was the statement by Dr. Rogers about standing for truth not united on error (this isn't the exact quote but when I heard it on the podcast I remembered it being stated here many times over the weeks)
jesusdotcalm...
"That very church which the world likes best is sure to be that which God
abhors."-Charles H. Spurgeon, 1859
:)
GBC_Member said...
I have never done it but they do offer a podcast of LWF if you can't catch the radio boradcast.
You can also hear Dr Rogers' messages online at LWF.org and oneplace.com! It is good to be able to hear him when we need a good scriptural message, especially nowdays!
www said- Belle...
I do wonder why SG was the speaker at Gatlinburg, how he was paid, if there was a waiting list to go what happened to those waiting while the SG group went, who paid for their trip vouchers and how much, & what about the T. Kinkaid art?
Can anyone vouch for expenses.. (pun intended) tee hee
I wonder if any of the parents gave any thoughts to who went along on the trip that SG was/is covering for now and the safety of their children?
And the STAND O'S MAKE ME SICK..
REPLY- You have got to be joking. I am amazed at how so many talk about all this petty stuff. Sorry, but GROW UP. Some on here sound like 3 year old cry babies. Dr. Rogers was pretty clear on the issue of petty stuff. NO pastor in this world would want to put up with the attitude and junk in your post and from so many others on here.
jesusdotcalm...said
"I pray Bellevue is not a member/client ?"
A lot of these churches are 'copycats'...and although they are not actual members, they follow their lead. Hook, line and sinker...
Day 5: Genesis 13-15
American English translation ("NIV")
King James
Please pray a Great Commission prayer for today's nation of the day: Antigua
Bellevue is as far from "seeker friendly" as you can be.
4545, I must state the following: Belle's post was not "junk;" it was an honestly asked question. She can do that.
i quoted WWW, NOT belle.
4545: Here is your QUOTE:
REPLY- You have got to be joking. I am amazed at how so many talk about all this petty stuff. Sorry, but GROW UP. Some on here sound like 3 year old cry babies. Dr. Rogers was pretty clear on the issue of petty stuff. NO pastor in this world would want to put up with the attitude and junk in your post and from so many others on here.
4545.....
Petty is a relative term. Your harsh and base responses to others implies that you are functioning at a comfortable level. It may say more about you than the one you are responding to.
As a seasoned business owner, I have serious concerns about lack of accountability regarding church funds. I think it is reasonable to want to know about other sources of income related to the reverend's ministry activities, especially since there is no public disclosure of his salary level. If you do not care, that is your business. I see it as a responsbility to care. If or when you ever serve on a board of directors of any group, you will realize there is a serious need to know that can extend to personal liability.
4545- still not sure I catch it since you replied to www, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.
4545,
Are you a deacon?
eprov said- serious concerns about lack of accountability regarding church funds.
REPLY- Be specific please. Our church goes above and beyond in that area.
4545,
eprov makes a very good point that I've thought about a lot lately. The fact that you don't care as much as perhaps others about accountability or you don't see anything wrong with the integrity behind the pulpit doesn't equate to "everyone else is wrong".
Perhaps God has spoken to many people that the issue of finances inside the church is important and these issues need to be known to anyone who cares. If He hasn't spoken to you about it, fine. What is He was speaking to people and they just didn't hear what He's saying? Accountability inside the church should always err on the side of openness instead of secrecy.
I've not to this day figured out why you or anyone else would fault other members of Bellevue for thinking it is a big deal to know how God's money is being spent.
People like the pastor, Mark Dougharty, Steve Tucker, Harry Smith, Wayne Vandersteeg, David Coombs, Jeff Arnold, Brian Miller, John Caldwell, John Crockett, and Ace seem to think the money inside Bellevue is theirs to spend anyway they want. They resent anyone wanting to know how they spend God's money. I've never heard of such arrogance inside a Southern Baptist Church in all of my life.
I guarantee a lot of these men wouldn't spend their own money the way this group has exhibited since the retirement of Dr. Rogers.
For you or anyone else to come along and keep hammering home the notion that it's none of anyone's business how much the pastor makes or how money is being spent in secrecy is ludicrous.
Are we turning into the Vatican? I think a lot more of Martin Luther today than I used to since being a part of Bellevue this past year.
In Genesis 3 Adam sinned. We're all still paying the price for Adam's sin. Remind me to talk to Adam about that when we elect get to Heaven--teasing.
Noah sinned: got drunk, disrobed, passed out. Later-while hungover?-spiritually abused a family member-Canaan not Ham. Did this bring his ministry career to end? Though he lived another ~300 years, Bible does not mention any more ministry by him.
Abraham sinned: did not defend the sanctity of his marriage and benefitted from the situation. See below.
Why does God put this information in the Bible? Certainly God wants us to realize that though he will forgive us, there are consequences for our actions.
God wants us to confess our sins, not blame them on someone else or deny them.
What (if anything) does it mean when we realize that it was the hand of Moses that the Holy Spirit used to set these events to writing?
(offline)
Genesis 9
20And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
21And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
22And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
23And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.
24And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
25And he said, Cursed be Canaan [not one of the three sons]; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
26And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
27God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
28And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years.
29And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.
Genesis 12
9And Abram journeyed, going on still toward the south.
10And there was a famine in the land: and Abram went down into Egypt to sojourn there; for the famine was grievous in the land.
11And it came to pass, when he was come near to enter into Egypt, that he said unto Sarai his wife, Behold now, I know that thou art a fair woman to look upon:
12Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see thee, that they shall say, This is his wife: and they will kill me, but they will save thee alive.
13Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.
14And it came to pass, that, when Abram was come into Egypt, the Egyptians beheld the woman that she was very fair.
15The princes also of Pharaoh saw her, and commended her before Pharaoh: and the woman was taken into Pharaoh's house.
16And he entreated Abram well for her sake: and he had sheep, and oxen, and he asses, and menservants, and maidservants, and she asses, and camels.
17And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife.
18And Pharaoh called Abram and said, What is this that thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife?
19Why saidst thou, She is my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way.
20And Pharaoh commanded his men concerning him: and they sent him away, and his wife, and all that he had.
4545,
I'll repeat the question. Just a simple yes or no will suffice.
Are you a deacon?
You can just include your answer when you rebut "swtt" in a few minutes.
Thank you,
NBBCOF
4545 said,
"Bellevue is as far from "seeker friendly" as you can be."
Your head is in the sand.
swtt- I disgree. I care greatly about the things you listed. I have asked for very specific examples of financial issues you have concern about. Please do not bother posting some of the petty credit card items and some of the the stuff that has already been proven to be false.
4545 - The fact that you think questioning the accountability of finances at Bellevue as it relates to SG has spoken volumes to me. So, some kid that may not have had the opportunity to go on this trip should just be so happy to know that his pastor's family took his room and used the extra funds for a Thomas Kinkade! I know that really excites me...what kid wouldn't understand that?
(offline) p.s. If you ever tell a Muslim about the biblical account of Noah and Abrahm, be very careful about how you present the two chapters above. When presenting this materal to some who have never read the Bible before, I have seen some who accused Christians ("the Pope," etc.), of **inserting** these stories into the Bible in order to make Naoh and Abraham look bad.
They really love these two and accord them the same title of "prophet" they give to others.
imaresisor- That's great. Teach me. Tell me how I am wrong. I think it would help if some on here had actually been to a "seeker friendly" church. Bellevue is currently light years away from that.
4545.....
Please do not reverse the question. What I was suggesting is the NEED FOR SPECIFICS.
One is obvious - what is reverend's salary level within say $50k including benefits value? And you are obviously savvy enough to understand the broader picture. There have been major corporate abuses that have been news items over the last 5-6 years. These are for-profit.....how much greater the responsibility on not-for-profit and certainly a church.
byebelle- Your post is crazy and did not happen. Try calling the Student Ministry.
Also, it is none of your business how others use their money and what they purchase.
4545
http://www-keeler.ch.cam.ac.uk/pictures/pictures2002/RichwithSand.jpg
If you want to refresh your memory of the documented financial scandals, spend some time researching the blog going back 3 to 4 months ago. I'm not going to repost what's already been posted over and over. If you want to give me your phone number, I'd be happy to meet over coffee and get you up to speed.
It's obvious you have no clue over the issues that need to be addressed.
kingdomrevolution said...
I have checked out some of these sites that seem to have their whole aim being "watchdogs". Some of the things are right on, but sometimes these accusations get repeated without people doing their research for themselves and we have to be careful about that because even some of these folks running these sites have "agendas".
You were addressing allofgrace, but I want to add my two cents. I agree with your point. Some of these watchdogs go too far. They see conspiracies under every rock and behind every pulpit. The labels New Age or Purpose-Driven or Seeker-Sensitive is innappropriately applied all the time. They all too often connect dots that should not be connected.
Usually there is some truth behind the watchdog positions, but they draw wild conclusions that are not supported by the facts. We need to be careful in making dogmatic assertions about any group, author, pastor (including SG), idea, etc. We must thoroughly compare and contrast the facts with Scripture before coming to a conclusion.
I am very much up to speed on everything and have been from day one. I have asked for very specific examples of financial issues you have concern about. Please do not bother posting some of the petty credit card items and some of the the stuff that has already been proven to be false.
4545 - Wow, people have been correct. Ask a question, and this is what you get! You sure are emphatic in saying that it did not happen. I'm asking a question. You're the one that has set yourself up for prooving that it did not happen. And it IS my business to know how the church is spending money. It is NOT my business how you spend your money.
Big difference.
ace,
quit whining
Tim said...
I love my church,
Also I believe that there is a church out in Germantown looking for a new pastor, what with his recommendation from Sam Shaw, I would be willing to bet that he would be a shoe in.
Reply:
Please tell me that this is meant to be "tongue in cheek", but POOR HUMOR. If it was serious, then the answer is "NOT"!!!!!!!!!
4545...
As much as I wish I could teach you, it is not possible. You will have to do a study on your own and pray for guidance.
It is my opinion that Bellevue is seeker sensitive as we speak. It is yours that it is not...so be it. One of us is wrong. One of us is right. I hope you are right. :) But from the fruit, I think I am right.
Whatever you do...keep an open mind. Don't just take a particular stance just because you don't want it to be a certain way. None of us want bad things to happen.
Lindon has been in a mega...she knows and understands the symptoms. I am the same. You would do well to listen to people who have been there.
Above all...I pray Bellevue to be the mighty church that it once was. We must bring the lost to Christ. Nothing should be more important than that. And I really feel that Steve Gaines could stop all of this mess in a heartbeat by just doing the right thing.
I wish you well...
From the fruit? We have had many many come to know the Lord this past year. We have had many become members etc. Like many, you just throw around words like "seeker friendly" and do not seem to know what they even mean. So, what do they mean to you?
We don't need a "seeker friendly" church, we need seeker friendly church members who can share with seekers how Jesus has changed their lives and why we gather together on Sunday mornings, Wednesday evenings and any other time two or three of us are together. It's to worship Him who made it all and who made us to be a kingdom of priests, IN the world but not OF it.
If people don't see that when they come to Bellevue, we need to change what we do so that they do. We DON'T need to be OF the world...
So, 4545, I'm glad Bellevue is as far from a seeker friendly church as it can get. Praise God that it might stay that way.
Folks, if you want to be seeker friendly, live your life before men so as to be salt and light, learn how to share your faith in a rational, effective way, and then DO it!
TS
WTB,
I have always tried to be discerning and learn what I can, but we must always remember that ultimately it is "sola scriptura". Yesterday when you made the joke about Boice and that dear lady suddenly took it as truth and immediately inferred that because you said it and his books are in a Lifeway Bookstore,which admittedly has alot of "junk" and even some heresy such as TD Jakes books and Phillips, Craig and Dean CDs (all of them are at modalists and heretics), then he was a cultist (wow that was a long sentence wasn't it). That just really bothered me.
I know that her heart is absolutely wanting to do good, but not even knowing who Boice is and then associating him with satanic cultism which is what she would have done if the joke had not been clarified.
I have done this same type of thing and I have been the victim of it, too. Again, in the essentials it is black and white and we are to be bulldogmatic, some we can be dogmatic about, but other differences that are in the pale of orthodoxy, but we dispute we should be full of grace.
byebelle- Why ask that question on here and bring more doubt that is NOT needed. It is OK that you have questions. Call and ask! Why post on here. In a few days, someone will post about this junk like it is a fact. Just like how so much of this got started. The rumors and stuff take on a life of there own.
TS- Well said and I agree!
4545 said...
Ha Ha! I know MUCH more about every detail and what is going than most. Think what you will.
10:49 PM, January 04, 2007
4545 said...
I am very much up to speed on everything and have been from day one.
4545,
From those two statements I would take that;
1) You are a member of Bellevue.
2) You are either:
a) A senior deacon of Bellevue.
b) An officer of Bellevue.
c) A staff member at Bellevue.
d) A member informed by one of the above.
There are very few outside of that group that know much about anything because of the secrecy that has surrounded everything over the past 15 months. Even the deacon body at large is fairly unfamiliar with most of the churches operations and definitely out of the loop on the internal investigation concerning Paul Williams, so that would put you in one of these four categories.
With that being said, have you been convinced that the church is going to issue a statement on January 16, that will not require that those aware of and informed of the facts be forced to refute and thus create another media feeding frenzy?
HUMMMMMMMMMMM
4545, have you forgotten that the money which is so secretely "used" and mis-used at Bellevue is money the sheep have GIVEN to the church?
THAT MONEY does not belong to you or anyone else who might think they are more superior. The inner circle, the inner sanctun, the few chosen who have all power and control, have the attitude of "like it or leave." It is presisely this attitude that has caused us to demand we know where our tithes and offerings are going.
We hate our taz dollers going to support abortion. Do you think we like our tithes and offers going there any less?
When our tithes have gone to support a known preacher lady who supports homosexuality and abortion, (not to mention a woman preacher which the BIBLE forbids). then yes. OPEN THE BOOKS!
Integrity does matter after all. There is far too little of it at Bellevue now.
The money comes from the congregation and the congregation has every right to know what that money is or is not being used for. It is due to alligations and misuse of funds that makes this ESSENTIAL. What makes a small group of proven to be unreliable stewards have the right of being exclusive and self appointed, WE KNOW BETTER THAN YOU. Shame on you.
What we know is there has been misuse of funds to the point where there may be co-mingling of funds and certainly the funds have gone to support those who stand for anti-Christ and Christian valuss.
Kingdomrevolution said:
“The other day I saw some castigate of all people Beth Moore about being a "contemplative" and I wondered if they really knew what they were talking about and what they meant by that.”
I, too, was concerned by that, so I’ve done A LOT of research over the last two days. The results are scary! And to top it off, the project in question uses my blogname! :^( (IF you’ll refer to my last post, you will see why I chose my name. They are misusing it!) Sorry for the long post, but we need to know this is out there. And it is not so far “out there;” there are several churches in Memphis that actually have and use labyrinths!
“It hasn't taken long for some of Evangelicalism's big names to jump on board this train to the East. A new DVD is being marketed by Fox Home Entertainment that features evangelical leaders like Charles Stanley, Beth Moore, Max Lucado, Michelle McKinney Hammond, Jerry Root, Dr. Henry Cloud, and Ginny Owens , to name just a few. The name of the DVD is “Be Still and Know” and the subject of the video is how to practice contemplative prayer.”
KEY SELLING POINTS:
* Crosses all denominations in its focus on the value of daily prayer in a fast-paced world.
* How-To section, including guidebook, shows how contemplative prayer is an invaluable tool for communing with God through reflective thinking on Biblical truth. (From Word Distribution)”
Contemplative prayer has been around for centuries and it is rooted firmly in Buddhist and Hindu traditions...Contemplative practices, or “disciplines” as they are called, include centering prayers and mantra meditation. Contemplative prayer is the act of going into the “Silence”. (The term is often capitalized because this is the Silence in which God is supposedly encountered.) It requires shutting your mind down by the use of a favorite word or phrase repeated over and over to shut off your thinking processes. Proponents of this practice claim that once your mind is shut down you will encounter God in the spirit realm. Unlike the meditation referred to by the Psalmist in Psalm 119:15 where he writes, “I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways”, this contemplative meditation requires the mind to be shut down to the point of silence. Into this silence God is supposed to speak. Rather than encounter God through His Word, Christians are now seeking something new and more “authentic” by using the Bible passages as mantras in an attempt to experience God in a whole new way. There is great danger here."
http://emergentno.blogspot.com/2006/06/update-on-beth-moore-contemplative.html
(This article contains three links in the first paragraph; the above information was taken from the first linked article.)
4545 - You are so right...doubt is NOT needed. Thus, one major point of this blog. Things that have been posted here seem to bring things into the light (remember that evil dwells in the darkness). Doubt didn't just happen, it was earned.
What is this about a shredder being brought into the church?
regarding SG being the camp pastor for the sr. high:
WILD HORSES ( no pun intended to the saddlemaker) could have forced me to put my son on that bus to go to that place with that man.
He has already proven that he will hide a pedophile. How would I know that he wasn't hiding another one?
Donna, take your family, husband included, and ride out of town while you still can. Take what is left of your tattered lives before you give your husband the opportunity to destroy your lives any further.
Furthermore, Donna, when you learned about PW...as Tim posted earlier, your first thought went to whether or not YOUR children had been in his presense. Was it ok with you that other's children might be in danger? Ya know, Donna, YOU could have ' dropped a dime' on PW yourself...all you had to do was contact the DA, you did not need your husband's permission to do so. It would have been between you and The Lord, and no one would have known who did it.
ROD,
FACT:
Someone I know saw Mark D. bringing in a shredder in the dark.
Unconfirmed:
The church had to have a 220 outlet installed to accomodate the shredder
4545
No, no, no...you are not turning this around on me. You must be a psyhcology major or well learned in it to understand so completely the effects of an open ended question. You use it well on your victims inside this blog. Go try your intimidation tactics on somebody else...I have better things to do. But I do wish you well.
I will not have any further discussions with you...they would be futile.
Fedup, do you know when Donna found out about PW?
For me, I can see where a pastor would not tell his spouse everything he knows about the church, or a member of the church. (This is no way is going to whether AR told Mrs. AR ok) I would think there would be some stuff that would be kept confidential. (and not saying he should have kept it confidential...boy these disclaimers get tiring)
listen up folks:
PEDOPHILIA THRIVES IN SECRECY
SILENCE INDICATES CONSENT
As far as I am concerned, SG is to be treated with the same disgust as PW.
Thanks,
Things are in darkness and in secrete. He brought it in under DARK/ Like a sneak? A SNEAK? What do you suppose they are going to shred? The Bible?
Wake up Bellevue! Look at what is manifest before your face! Look at the facts? Has all righteousness left the building?
UNDERCOVER AT NIGHT? Too much. Too unbelievable!
kingdomrevolution,
Right on, brother.
By the way, I have a close friend whose business interaction with TD Jakes told me all I needed to know about him. We all ought to weep for everyone deceived by that man, particularly those in the black community. You're right, his view on the trinity is heresy, but even if his theology was right on point, he is a deceiver. The words "filthy lucre" come to mind whenever I think of Jakes.
Be Still,
I live and minister in a country where 99 percent of the people are Buddhist, so I understand the spiritual darkness that is inherent in Buddhism and agree that there version of "contemplative" prayer is insiduously evil.
Thanks for the research you did on these other issues and the people involved. And thanks for passing it on. Would you agree or disagree that we need to always be sure of what we are saying? Even using the term contemplative can have many meanings. If I told you I spend time in contemplating scripture and praying through the Psalms and in this listening for the promptings of the Spirit and his enlightenment does that make me a "contemplative". I know for a fact that sometimes what the Christian writers are talking about has nothing to do with the Buddhist tradition.
It is like the term meditation - many false religions practice meditation, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't. Even in Christian understandings and discussions this type of thing can happen. I have refused to allow the "charismaniacs" to steal the word charismatic from the biblically correct expression of that term to all of us who are spiritually gifted by Jesus grace.
As Custos reminds us - words mean something, we just have to be careful.
kingdomrevolution said, " Yesterday when you made the joke about Boice and that dear lady suddenly took it as truth..."
Hello kingdom...let me say something here since I am that 'dear lady'. There is nobody on this site that would research anything more than I. Even though I did mistakenly run through that post WT posted, it was to get to the point that Lifeway (and others) carry the occult messages by many, many occult authors and try to bring attention to that. So many people don't realize it and go right in and buy these books. The result is that many, many people are brainwashed as a result of it. The SBC is doing the same thing. Slowboil. So, back to my point...I really didn't pay attention to the author that westtn mentioned and I should have. What you have is a double whammy. Bottom line is...my intent was to try and bring attention to this matter and wtm helped me to do it. We went around the block to do it...but it got done. No harm done. Please don't worry about it...although there may be people out there that might have walked off not understanding what happened, I am not one of them. You have a good day...and what a good heart you have to be concerned about me. Thank you.
Guys,
Here is the email addy for jeanne blaylock:
jblaylock@firstcoastnews.com
If you have not already done so, please email her. She is the person that did the Bob Gray story.
She needs to know that SG has been asked to speak to 5,000 or more pastors.
At the very least, these pastors need to know that he harbored a pedophile for 6 months.
Since Max Brunson is unconcerned ( reference the snotty letter i received from him) our only truth outlet now is Jeanne.
4545,
I don't want to misqoute you or place words in your mouth, so let me get this straight. Are you saying SG did not charge personal items to church credit accounts (I am not saying to credit cards, but church accounts.) The only reason I'm asking is b/c in the eyes of the IRS, Federal govt, state govt, there is no diference. It is against the lay for a tax-exempt business to do this, for ANYTHING not business related. 4545, can you please clarify your answer to this. I too did not have the time to go back for months to read all the posts here and I did not realize this was proven false.
Memphis
For the record, I do not know if SG told DG or not. That is a matter for her own conscious.
Memphis,
Just thinking further on that subject...
If SG did not tell DG...or his children...
Would that mean that he was willing to put his OWN kids at risk from PW??
How Sick is THAT?
He had to have done one of two things:
1) he told his family so that his children would be sure to stay away from PW, in which case,Donna knew and should have told on the man herself
OR
2) he kept it quiet, and made no effort to keep his own children away from PW
Another thought about option # 1 above:
What does that say about the man, that he would keep his own kids safe, while not caring one whit about everyone else's kids...You know..the ones who are hoopin and hollerin when he comes on stage...those folks' kids.
Does anyone have any comment on the "sex scandal cover up" that Abraham was involved in?
more about my previous post:
option #1:
Do they think that THEIR kids were the ONLY kids deserving of protection?
option #2:
If he didn't care enough about his own kids, what makes you think he would care about anyone else's?
Dear Iamaresistor,
Please understand I am with you 100 percent. I have actually gone into the bookstore at Giacosa place when I lived there and taken books and cds up to the counter and asked them if they had any idea what they were selling and pointed out to them the heresy and the dangers.
Maybe I am being over-sensitive, but I senses some sarcasm in your closing and I just wanted you to know that I didn't mean anything derogatory. I was just trying to use that one example of how we must be careful as we can be doing what is absolutely right, which I believe you are, and we can shave away our credibility some when we aren't. That is all I meant and I didn't mean anything mean towards you (not a mean bone in me). I have been around to long to deliberately upset brothers and especially sisters :) who are standing for right and making that stand in the power of the Lord.
My only point is that I know a lot about how some of these watchdog sites work and we just have to be careful - they aren't always free of their own agendas and motives and unfortunately at times, jealousies.
Iamaresistor, though I don't know you and never will, I love you in the love of the risen Christ and am sincerely daily praying for those of whom you I know your screen names and what you are going through. I know you are a prayer, so please pray for me as I work for the kingdom of Jesus and his gospel in here in Thailand.
Jesus Alone!!
be-still-and-know said:
"I, too, was concerned by that, so I’ve done A LOT of research over the last two days. The results are scary! And to top it off, the project in question uses my blogname! :^( (IF you’ll refer to my last post, you will see why I chose my name. They are misusing it!) Sorry for the long post, but we need to know this is out there. And it is not so far “out there;” there are several churches in Memphis that actually have and use labyrinths!"
You have a new friend in me. I want to congratulate you on your initiative to get in there and research. Seek truth! This is what we must do. You are one in a million! I am screaming this from the top of my lungs! We cannot simply just sit still and continue to let these people insult Jesus Christ! I literally cannot tolerate it and do not intend to even try.
The purpose driven life movement, all of these church growth movements, this emergent church which promotes contemplative prayer (as does Rick Warren) needs to be studied and understood by Christian people so that we combat it. The problem is that multitudes are swallowing it...and I am talking about Christians! The Southern Baptist Convention is PROMOTING it!!! People have got to wake up!!!
And I have read this morning that some think these discernment ministries are going 'overboard'. Well...let me just say this. They are passionate about this because they understand so well what is happening. They study it every day..they are a part of it. Folks...we NEED to be passionate about what is happening to the Body of Christ!
Again...thank you for your discernment and your interest in what is happening. I pray for more people like you.
Tim,
I just had a moment to review the Sermon notes for this coming Sunday and I am wondering if you received any input from our pastor friends about the integrity of this "sermon",if you can call it that.
Reminds me of Joel Osteen's "feel good about yourself and your sins" sermons from dialadollar.com.
fedup: You say you received a "snotty" letter from Mac Brunson...I thought you said it was just a response that he doesn't respond to anonymous emails. Is that what you mean by "snotty"?
friendinjax
Yes, because i had explained in my letter that those who go against him will get a 4 man goon visit..and that was why i could not sign my name...
And yet, he still would not respond to my request.
If you are not aware of the 4 man goon visit, go to savingbellevue.com and read about Mark Sharpe.
kingdomrevolution said:
"Maybe I am being over-sensitive, but I senses some sarcasm in your closing and I just wanted you to know that I didn't mean anything derogatory."
Sarcasm? Never! Maybe I am too passionate and it comes over that way...oh, I hope not! You and I are on the same page! Know that I appreicate you and love you in the Lord Jesus Christ!
There are those I have met here that I'd love to meet...you are one of them.
Thank you...
mom4,
I have received 3 e-mails all positive in supporting that this sermon is taking Scripture out of context.
Here is one example:
"I'm a SBC pastor who is an occasional reader of this blog. You are correct in your reading of the Philippians passage.
You're absolutely right about looking at the verses before and
after--it's the beauty of context. One of the reasons many preachers like to just preach straight through scripture. You cannot help but get the context, and you
avoid preaching sermons from your own defense or pet reasons."
I still would like to hear from other preachers, especially if they could offer insight on the issue, my orignal post on this issue was at 3:19 on January 4 on this thread.
be-still-and-know,
Would you be kind enought to share the names of the churches in Memphis that have labryniths?
Fedup: I'm aware of the SG visit and the "itty bitty fence".
I'm just curious...why would you send a letter to Mac Brunson and actually tell him that you are anonymous for fear of a "4 man goon squad" coming to your house. Remaining anonymous is fine, but politely voicing your opinion that he remove SG from the speaker's lineup would be the way to go. Sending him a note like that only heightens his skepticism of the communication that goes on in the blogs. It really makes you look like a "kook" when you mention fear of a 4-man goon squad to him.
Billie Tap said
I am very upset with the faction that is trying to destroy the integrity of Dr. Steve Gaines.
I don't see how anyone can destroy Steve Gaines integrity except for Steve Gaines, no matter how hard you may try. His integrity stands on his own words and actions, and as a Leader in the position he's in, he should accept the fact that those words and actions will be watched and discussed, with whole libraries worth of commentary around dinner tables and internet blogs. Some people will even alter their very moral values and how they live their life based on those words and actions. (Grandma Billie apparently being one of those).
He should have a goal of living a life that holds himself blameless before the congregation and the World. There are plenty of examples out there how his "words and actions" have been...uh..."less than consistent" with that goal in mind. No need to list them out again. Either you see it or you don't. If you can’t find the truth in this case, I would submit to you its for "the same reason that a thief can't find a policeman." (Borrowed Adrianism).
Those people accuse him of being stubborn and having the final say on how things should be done, but what are they doing and saying?
Again, another statement that reveals her unbiblical leader-worship. The Bible is full of Scripture about a wise leader seeking counsel. This pastor has clearly demonstrated to many, including a Seminary President and the former Pastor Emeritus (& family), that he isn't interested in anyone's counsel but his own. He clearly considers whatever church he’s in as his personal empire, and it’s proven in the fruit. The fruit here is that the Bible is no longer sufficient to govern BBC as it was in the days of Pastor Rogers. We have to have new “polices and procedures”, and the realization of the need for strong bylaws grows and grows. It gives illustration to me of Romans 1, “Professes a form of godliness, but denies the power there-of.”
Should not the senior pastor have the final say?
Mrs. Billie, I call you right now to answer this question. "Should not the Senior Pastor be held accountable to the Congregation of God's People for his actions?
Your multiple communications, to us and the Commercial Appeal indicate that in your theology, the Pastor gets a free pass just like the days of "Divine Right of Kings". It was wrong and unbiblical then, and it's wrong and unbiblical now. The fact that this lie is alive and well after 2000+ years of church history, just shows the power of the Enemy.
Growing up, studying the end times I used to wonder how in the world was a man (the anti-christ and his prophet) going to be able to deceive everyone? I mean, won’t we all be looking for him and would never let him get away with all that?
This entire experience should be a vivid lesson to all of us on exactly how easy it will be for the anti-Christ to gain power. People want to blindly follow a leader, and avoid personal accountability.
If there isn't any fire, the smoke will blow away soon enough. Always does.
iamaresistor,
Good, I am glad that you weren't upset. When I began to preach 29 years ago my dad told me, "Preach to afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted". I didn't want to be afflicting someone who is as passionate about the truth as you are. Now that it settled and I can go to bed, it is after midnight over here, but I wanted to be sure there was no ill will.
Also, I understand the watchdog folks passion - I too am passionate. That is why I am doing what I do now here, but all I am saying is that we too should be passionate (and I know you are) about the Word of God and nothing and Jesus. Sometimes (please just trust me I know of what I speak in this one case) many times they feed off other's bad information and sometimes a small thing or misunderstanding gets blown out of proportion and a reputation is besmirched. Please also know I think many of them do a service and as long as they do it with a zeal for Jesus and a the Truth, then that is great but passion isn't an excuse for error on either side.
I was involved for a short time in a ministry where the people were the most passionate you could imagine, but it took them to places that were wrong. That is all I was trying to say.
May you know and experience the deepest love of Jesus on your Friday.
4545
Let me put a hypothetical scenario out here to explain my point. Say SG throws a party at the Acme dinner club. The time comes for him to pay and they hand him the bill and it says $300 plus 9% tax. The total (minus tip) is approx $327. He pulls out his wallet and pays it with cash. The next week, since he liked the last party, he holds another one, same scenario At the end of the night, the bill arrives and he forgot his wallet, (or whatever) and says to charge it to the church's acct (no credit card used). The dinner club takes the bill and gives it to their accts dept who then create an invoice and ship it out to BBC. The church gets the bill in a few days, for $300 due. They tell SG and he writes BBC a $300 check within 5 minutes. All is good right? Not really, SG paid $300 (not $327) b/c the church is tax exempt. Realize that the dinner club's records system show BBC is tax exempt. When the dinner club creates that invoice, the BBC acct is flagged as tax-exempt. This is why the IRS, etc doesn't allow this type of thing. SG’s party was not an approved church function but personal. When SG puts personal items on church accts he is not paying money due to the govt, state, etc. On this item as well as my previous post, I need your clarification, as not to misquote you, do you approve of this?
Btw, this type of thing happens a lot. I've been in leadership of a fe local churches locally in Shelby County and many people want to do thi type thing. I had a head preacher (2 years ago) that would never use the church credit card b/c the businesses wouldn't take the taxes off, he would set up church charge accts at many local stores, restaurants, etc. It finally took our accountant threatening to quit to get the preacher to stop charging his personal items to the church accts (lunches, dry cleaning, gas, etc).
kingdomredolution...
Understand completely. It all depends on what we are passionate about.
I looked to see if you had an email address. I would love to know more about you. Know that you will be in my prayers. Just wish I had a name to put with that prayer. I assume you are a missionary.
imaresistor said...
Would you be kind enought to share the names of the churches in Memphis that have labryniths?
I know you didn't direct this question to me, but at least Second Baptist has one, as well as First Congregational.
I may have missed some discussion here, so I apoligise in advance if it's already been discussed, but a labrynith was in the plans for the Steve Gaines "prayer building" that kinda slid off the radar. Made me go "hummm.." at the time.
Kingdom...
By any chance do you have a dear sweet mother whose first name begins with 'S'?
I ask because I have been praying for her son in the mission field in a place that sounds much like yours.
friendinjax said:
It really makes you look like a "kook" when you mention fear of a 4-man goon squad to him.
****
tell that to mark sharpe
Bible-in-a-year said...
Does anyone have any comment on the "sex scandal cover up" that Abraham was involved in?
I'm not sure what you are trying to stir up here, but I think we all know the consequences of that one. In fact, you could say that what happened on 9/11 could be considered a result of Abrahams "moral failure".
Kingdomrevolution said:
“Would you agree or disagree that we need to always be sure of what we are saying? Even using the term contemplative can have many meanings. If I told you I spend time in contemplating scripture and praying through the Psalms and in this listening for the promptings of the Spirit and his enlightenment does that make me a "contemplative".”
................................
I would absolutely agree that we must be careful of every word we speak. As far as the term contemplative, what you describe above sounds to me like you mean for me to read, think through and apply the Psalms, while keeping scripture in the forefront of my mind, allowing me greater sensitivity to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.
By contrast, contemplative prayer (by asking that I first EMPTY my mind) seems to do the opposite:
“Definition of Contemplative Prayer: As it is expressed in a modern day movement, is mystically based on a technique or method in which one empties the mind of thought through repetition, usually of a word or phrase or focus on the breath. In this case the silence would be an absence of thought, all thought.”
From an article by Brian Flynn: “Richard Foster, a supporter of contemplative prayer, writes a curious warning about this practice in his book "Prayer: Finding the Heart's True Home." "I also want to give a word of precaution. In the silent contemplation of God we are entering deeply into the spiritual realm, and there is such a thing as a supernatural guidance," he explains. "While the Bible does not give us a lot of information on that, there are various orders of spiritual beings, and some of them are definitely not in cooperation with God and his way!"
I do know that God tells us:
"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your MIND." (Matthew 22:37)
"And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions, as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. Therefore, do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask him" (Matthew 6:7,8).
That’s good enough for me!
Sorry, I hope that wasn’t a rhetorical question……….
logan,
Your reasonings are valid for the state code. The IRS concern is that once the reimbursement has been made the reimburser will have evidence of what may be claimed as a contribtuion to a non-profit organization. The result would be an additional tax deduction that would lead to an $80 reduction in federal taxes owed. The IRS code was modified to prevent this from happening because it becomes tedious to track down garbage like this.
Net effect $300 meal + tax $327, direct billed no sales tax, $80 savings on federal tax. $327 total with $220 net out of pocket all at tax payer expense. 32.5% savings.
NBCCOF,
I'm not bashing the content of Ace's (and the others') site at all.
Maybe not right this instance but in the past you did.
My point was that it's hypocritical to come here and criticize me for not "moderating" the comments according to Ace's tastes while he moderates the comments on his forum as he sees fit.
That's not the issue. You moderate my posts, delete them and say that they are attacking people when they aren't doing that. Yet when one of your friends attacks someone, you applaud them.
So I guess having double standards is okay for you... I'm sorry that I didn't understand that you're better than everyone else.
All I ask is that Ace extend me the same courtesy and not continue to come here and tell me what I should and shouldn't allow on this forum.
Then you need to be consistent with your moderating and not allow one person to post something and you delete it and then another person posts something and you praise them.
(Ace, I realize you're too young to remember records, but you can read about them here.)
How do you realize that? You do not know my age so don't even pretend you do.
One might even say your arguments are path... excuse me... something special.
Isn't it funny how you can't come up with anything original? Quit stealing my lines.
And, yes, that last part was a joke...go ahead...smile.
imaresistor...St. George's does as well.
More thoughts about the cover up of the pedophile:
If you were an undiscovered pedophile, lurking the halls of BBC, would the cheering crowd embolden you?
Would it appear to the pedophile that no one is REALLY concerned about pedophelia at BBC?
Would you garner from their reponse that it's ' just a family matter' or ' he only did it one time' etc etc...and the other excuses that they are making for SG.
What message does this send to not only the pedophile, but a child that is currently being sexually abused?
Let me tell you what is says:
NO ONE CARES!!!
Would a pedophile be more or less likely to sign up for service, say, in the nursery? He KNOWS that there are 7,000 cheering people( that he knows of) who will let him get by with it, namely STEVE GAINES.
You parents who cheer him on, you think about the danger that you are putting your own child in now at BBC.
Is is a safe haven for the pedophile?
I'd think long and hard before i dropped off a child there now, in the current atmosphere.
fedupatbbc,
Has anyone else heard this almost verbatim.
"but the pastor needs our support, he is really having a hard time with all of this,
he might even leave because of it, and I wouldn't blame him if he did."
I am serious and want to know if anyone else has heard this phrase almost word for word.
Some info on labyrinths.
Do you guys here have jobs? I mean...come on, you're on here 24/7
Do you not have anything better to do with your time than to spend it here all day plotting? Perhaps you should spend the time you spend here with your your children and family instead of acting like children all day?
I mean, honestly...come on...
iflyaway....thanks for the link...gives me the willies..."we are rediscovering a long-forgotten mystical tradition that is insisting to be reborn." What???? It gets worse and worse, doesn't it?
Matthew 5
44"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46"For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47"If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
48"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
fedup: Gee, OK. I'll ask Mark Sharpe....sorry, still makes you look like a "kook" since the visit to Mark Sharpe was under different circumstances...if you actually feel that asking Mac Brunson to remove SG from the Pastors Conference line up would result in a 4-man visit from BBC, then maybe you are a "kook".
Why do I care if you look like a "kook" in an email to Mac Brunson? Because it then gives him more reason to dismiss those of us who might write him politely and want to be taken seriously.
The comment below comes from a guy with 100+ posts to his credit and who has also found the time to start his own forum where he posts.
ace said...
Do you guys here have jobs? I mean...come on, you're on here 24/7
Do you not have anything better to do with your time than to spend it here all day plotting? Perhaps you should spend the time you spend here with your your children and family instead of acting like children all day?
I mean, honestly...come on...
12:25 PM, January 05, 2007
concernedSBCer said...
iflyaway....thanks for the link...gives me the willies..."we are rediscovering a long-forgotten mystical tradition that is insisting to be reborn." What???? It gets worse and worse, doesn't it?
reply - Yes, it does. There are many more sites about this subject which I did not post. It is my desire, rather, that we focus our attention to the "true", i.e. the Holy Scriptures, rather than the counterfeit.
ace said...
"Do you guys here have jobs? I mean...come on, you're on here 24/7
Do you not have anything better to do with your time than to spend it here all day plotting? Perhaps you should spend the time you spend here with your your children and family instead of acting like children all day?
I mean, honestly...come on... "
12:25 PM, January 05, 2007
And how would you know unless you are on here 24/7 as well. Boy, you guys, I cannot believe how narrow minded and accusatory you can be....
Maybe we are all like Mike Bratton and work from home so we can stay there with our children.
Or maybe we are independently wealthy and don't have to work.
Or maybe we are disabled and can't work.
Or maybe we work NIGHTS or SHIFT work and our spouse keeps up the posts...
Actually, if the truth be known, it is none of your beeswax..precious! (that is my inner child talking:))
FinanceGuy said...
"Would you be kind enough to share the names of the churches in Memphis that have labryniths?
I know you didn't direct this question to me, but at least Second Baptist has one, as well as First Congregational.
I may have missed some discussion here, so I apoligise in advance if it's already been discussed, but a labrynith was in the plans for the Steve Gaines "prayer building" that kinda slid off the radar. Made me go "hummm.." at the time."
WOW...thank you for joining in! Sooooo....Bellevue had a labyrnith in mind for the prayer building. I should have caught on to that when I read about your prayer building. I would strongly suspect that it might have been put on hold because things were going to fast. This is a huge mistake these (PD, etc.)pastors make...that get in too big of a hurry. To get these movements transitioned in to your church unbeknowing to you...they have to do it over a period of time. The slow boil technique.
There should be no doubt in the minds of you folks what is going on in Bellevue. And for those who will not see it...well, they are the ones with the scales over their eyes.
I strongly suggest all of you, if you haven't already, get into an intense study of what contemplative prayer/spirituality is right along with the study of the purpose driven movement. PD usually preceeds the contemplative prayers.
The labrynith is on a large scale what the Catholic rosary beads are. Serves the same purpose. It is ritualistic...and more.
May God lead us in these times to understand those things going on around us.
Thank you finance guy for alerting people to this.
concernedSBCer said...
iflyaway....thanks for the link...gives me the willies..."we are rediscovering a long-forgotten mystical tradition that is insisting to be reborn." What???? It gets worse and worse, doesn't it?""....
YES!!! Mysticism!!! Eastern mysticism!!! And you cannot, in any way, be a part of this. Thank God you are seeing it!
I had a so called pastor in my former church stand in the pulpit and read to us from the New Jerusalem Bible...a catholic bible! He would call for SILENCE! He would have the congregation CHANT!!! He turned the congregation against us because we were trying to bring to the congregation's attention that something was wrong! You must swallow and follow the preacher at all cost! NOT ME!!! Oh how I pray for you folks! How I pray that you will see what is happening at Bellevue and how I pray you can turn this around. Your entire leadership must go...except for those who stand against this farce. Forgive me...I know I become passionate. But I love Jesus Christ and cannot tolerate people making a mockery out of Him.
FinanceGuy,
Thanks for your response. I'm asking about the text I quoted above. I gave several disclaimers and some tenative, hesitant interpretation outlines of my own. The text is from yesterday's study.
IMHO, this has nothing to do with Hagar or Ishmael or 9/11 (you mentioned 9/11 in your comment). This was just about Abraham telling a half-truth and leaving out the fact that Sarah was his wife.
Then she was taken into the royal house and diseases began appearing. This can be called nothing less than a Clinton-esque scandal.
I have never completely understood this story.
With Moses putting this down in writing, he surely was thinking about the OT laws that God had just taught him. Abraham never knew those laws. Does that different level of knowledge of God's penalties have anything to do with this?
Then Abraham benefits financially?? Perhaps it was not Abraham's fault that Sarah was taken from him? Apparently if he had said she was his wife he would have been killed.
I just don't know what to make of this story.
Perhaps if I could grow spiritually over the next few months enough to attain wisdom to understand this story I could offer some useful suggestions on what is going on with scandals and the aftermath of damaged lives and ministries at BBC, SBC, Roman Catholics, etc.
Can you help me figure this text out?
Bible-in-a-year.
Genesis 12
9And Abram journeyed, going on still toward the south.
10And there was a famine in the land: and Abram went down into Egypt to sojourn there; for the famine was grievous in the land.
11And it came to pass, when he was come near to enter into Egypt, that he said unto Sarai his wife, Behold now, I know that thou art a fair woman to look upon:
12Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see thee, that they shall say, This is his wife: and they will kill me, but they will save thee alive.
13Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.
14And it came to pass, that, when Abram was come into Egypt, the Egyptians beheld the woman that she was very fair.
15The princes also of Pharaoh saw her, and commended her before Pharaoh: and the woman was taken into Pharaoh's house.
16And he entreated Abram well for her sake: and he had sheep, and oxen, and he asses, and menservants, and maidservants, and she asses, and camels.
17And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife.
18And Pharaoh called Abram and said, What is this that thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife?
19Why saidst thou, She is my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way.
20And Pharaoh commanded his men concerning him: and they sent him away, and his wife, and all that he had.
10:02 AM, January 05, 2007
concernedSBCer
Oh...I forgot to tell you that I am a Southern Baptist. Not a catholic. :) I read my post again and it almost sounded like I am Catholic. :( Although the move on today through the comtemplative prayer, centering, etc...is trying to get us to a point.)
Finance Guy,
Since your reply implied a reference to Hagar (9/11 Arabs=Ishamelites= Hagar and Abraham)...
It does appear as if multiple-wives (polygamy) seemed to be a sin many fell into in the bible. (David, Soloman, etc.)
Perhaps Abraham allowed his wife to have multiple **husbands** to keep him from being killed?
note: the phrase in KJV "was taken into Pharaoh's house" is translated in the NIV as "married."
Any Hebrew experts out there want to save us ignorants from having to go find the Hebrew-English online dictionaries and making a bigger mess of this confusion?
By the way, God himself blessed Ishmael in Genesis and promised him many descendants. It was not Ishmael's fault that Abraham did not wait on Sarah to become pregnant.
ace wrote:
NBBCOF wrote:
"I'm not bashing the content of Ace's (and the others') site at all."
Maybe not right this instance but in the past you did.
I will respond to this one point simply to set the record straight for everyone else. I have NEVER criticized the content of Ace's site. Period. In fact, he asked that I place a link to it on this site, which I did. (My exact words to him were, "I've looked at your new forum, and I'd be happy to put a link on the NBBCOF. I think it provides a good balance.") But then he apparently got angry over something and asked me to remove that link the same evening -- which I did. I have no problem whatsoever with the content of your site, Ace, so to borrow another of your lines, "Stop putting words in my mouth!"
As for the rest of your comment, no comment. I've said all I intend to say to you on that subject.
NBBCOF
A wonderful website to go to for the understanding and education for contemplative prayer/spirituality is:
www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com
Deborah Dombrowski is the owner and stands ready to help in any way she can. You will serve yourself well to study what she has to offer there. Below is a good definition of the term. You will find a wealth of information at her website on other subjects as well.
Contemplative Spirituality: A belief system that uses ancient mystical practices to induce altered states of consciousness (the silence) and is rooted in mysticism and the occult but often wrapped in Christian terminology. The premise of contemplative spirituality is pantheistic (God is all) and panentheistic (God is in all).
I would also like to inquire of you, any of you, if you have in your church had a class offered you on Experiencing God by Henry Blackaby? I do not need to know this personally. It is a part of what we are discussing.
God bless you all...I am offline now.
4545
http://www.parida.com/img1/head-in-sand.jpg
If you want to refresh your memory of the documented financial scandals, spend some time researching the blog going back 3 to 4 months ago. I'm not going to repost what's already been posted over and over. If you want to give me your phone number, I'd be happy to meet over coffee and get you up to speed.
It's obvious you have no clue over the issues that need to be addressed.
Perhaps the following can help start you on your journey:
swtt said...
New Year's Resolutions for our Beloved Bellevue Baptist Church.
* Take the Word that we preach weekly and practice what the Word says.
* Start holding ministers on staff to the Biblical standards called for.
* Stop calling a homosexual/pedophilia act a "moral failure". Call it an abomination to the Lord.
* Start applying Matthew 18 inside the church, including Steve Gaines and the rest of the ministers.
* Stop allowing the pastor and other ministers to be above reproach.
* Seek God to call a Servant Leader to replace Steve Gaines.
* Ask the Lord to forgive us as a church for winking at the sin that has occurred from our leadership this past year.
* Forgive us for giving standing ovations to a pastor that has shamed our Lord, Bellevue, and his family.
* Stop allowing power to be in the hands of a few men who act unbiblical in church business.
* Ask God to give our leadership discernment on right vs. wrong.
* Demand accountability from the pastor.
* Demand accountability from our church lay leaders.
* All of us to test everything that is done and said with the Word.
* Create in environment where the congregation can ask legitimate questions.
* Have quarterly business meetings where the membership can be a part of what's going on and have the freedom to be informed.
* Have a pastor that doesn't look at the tithing records of deacons, teachers, choir members, and staff.
* Rely on God to touch the hearts of men/women to give out of love and not fear.
* Collect all church credit cards and let anyone who has to spend money submit an expense report to the church.
* Put the proper controls in place for spending money.
* Review the amount spent by Bellevue staff each month on eating out at local restaurants.
* Start using our eating facilities (like they were originally intended to be used) for lunch.
* Stop allowing the pastor to have personal expenses direct billed to the church.
* No longer allow the pastor to have any more birthday parties for his wife direct billed to the church.
* No longer allow the church to pay for cheerleading travel/expenses any longer.
* Never give any future donations out unless they have been prayed over and thought out.
* No longer be involved thru the pastor’s office of overcharging parishioners for tour trips led by the pastor.
* Create a separation of fiduciary commingling of staff time and Bellevue resources for personal gain of the pastor and his wife.
* Start publishing the compensation packages of the staff like 99% of the Southern Baptist churches across America do already.
* Revise our compensation package for any minister that is receiving unreasonable pay.
* Revise our bylaws so there is written guidance for our church to operate under.
* Start operating under bylaws like the Southern Baptist Convention does.
* Put restrictions on the same set of men/families filling the finance committee and other committees with a great deal of control.
* Once again place an emphasis on Wednesday Night Prayer Meeting.
* Stop allowing influential leaders to do business with the church unless there is full disclosure.
* Publish all business dealings with anyone who is a member of Bellevue.
* Allow the congregation greater knowledge of the budget and where all of the money goes that is spent at Bellevue.
* Stop hording $30,000,000 in the bank and start spending on ministries.
* Let the membership have total knowledge of how we are spending this $30,000,000.
* Stop allowing "pet" projects costing $100,000's to be spent without the knowledge of the church.
* Stop hiring "business" men to be ministers without formal training in seminary.
* Stop having leadership positions be determined by "social status".
* Allow Godly members of Bellevue who have been passed over in the past to fill leadership positions.
* Stop requiring staff members to sign a legal document prohibiting them from talking about the inner workings of Bellevue.
* Stop intimidating staff member and former staff members.
* Stop intimidating members.
* The pastor should not be able to take along men to intimidate any member.
* Trespassing into member’s neighborhoods or onto property will not be tolerated by Bellevue.
* Stop using the pulpit to preach self serving messages that misuse the scriptures.
* Never allow a pastor to be called again without the congregation knowing who he is before the day of decision.
* Full blown background checks will be done on any future ministers that are hired.
* Future pastors must want to preach on any Wednesday night possible.
* Hire pastors that don't call their parishioners "Hezbollah".
* Reject Warrenism or any part of Warrenism that has crept into our church.
* Pray that all members who profess to be Believers humble themselves before our Lord.
* Each of us search our hearts to do what God wants us to do.
* Each of us search our hearts to go where God wants us to go.
* Each of us search our hearts to be the person God wants us to be.
* Pray that we can once again fellowship with each other in love.
* Pray that Bellevue once again would be able worship in Spirit and in Truth.
* Pray that we all have the spirit of forgiveness, love, patience, and long suffering.
Quote: "....From the fruit? We have had many many come to know the Lord this past year. We have had many become members etc. Like many, you just throw around words like "seeker friendly" and do not seem to know what they even mean. So, what do they mean to you? "
Big numbers = God's Blessing? Not necessarily. It can be but rarely is so.
If those numbers have come to know the Lord, then their lives have been drastically changed. What we know by hard statistics is that this is not true. Divorce, abuse, all social ills etc, are the same in most mega churches as it is in society. We measure by holiness...not coming forward and saying a prayer or being baptized.
For a great narrative on what seeker friendly means try David Wells' book, "Above All Earthly Powers".
If we want to be seeker friendly, then we need to know that ONLY God seeks. Not us (Romans 3)
There are some cosmetic cues that a church is seeker friendly but I will spare you those. The main thing to look for is the dumbing down or 'softening' of the hard truths of scripture in order not to scare 'seekers away'. (Sin, Hell, Sanctification, etc.) The excuse used is that we want them to feel comfortable then we will give them the meat, but it never happens.
There is so much I could write on this because I lived it and helped plan seeker sensitive events and worship. God had to hit me over the head hard for me to see this and come out of it.
You know, one thing the Lord put on my heart was this: There are 26,000 members in that church. How come your city has not been changed as a result? Wouldn't 26,000 dramatically changed people make a difference in a city my size? YES. Wouldn't people notice? Yes. But, it is NOT a church. It is a social club.
We have brought the world into the church. Not the other way around as taught in scripture: Salt and Light.
I hate to be dramatic, but we are too much like the world to be persecuted for Christ. Leonard Ravenhill said that if Jesus preached what is preached today, He would never have been crucified.
Quote: "I, too, was concerned by that, so I’ve done A LOT of research over the last two days. The results are scary! And to top it off, the project in question uses my blogname! :^("
Praise God!!! Beth Moore was confronted about this CD. There are several 'mystics' on the CD with her. Brendan Manning, Richard Foster, etc. Beth denied believing in 'Eastern Spirituality' but still went ahead with the CD lending her name this apostasy along with Max Lucado and Charles Stanley (who teaches 'self forgiveness!)
How does God speak today? Through His Word. The Holy Spirit uses the Word to guide us and teach us. If you think God is speaking to you outside the Word, better test the spirits intensely!
Before this CD came out, I was questioning her teaching. Especially some of the 'exhortations' she was teaching us to say each morning as we get up. I started viewing some of her teaching as 'God as the big bellhop in the sky' ready to give you what you want.
Scripture tells us to take up our Cross and Follow HIM. It is a narrow road. The Christian life is about sacrifice and joy in that sacrifice. I had to learn that the hard way.
For more information on how Contemplative Spirituality is infesting our churches, check out this site:
http://www.apprising.org/archives/contemplative_spiritualitymysticism/index.html
(blogmeister, I can't get the link thingie to work in comments!)
I have been communicating with Pastor Silva for over a year now. He is a godly man who, I can assure you, does not own a pair of 300 dollar shoes. He is afflicted with a disease and pastors a home church in the SBC. His site is to warn those away from false teaching. There is a huge need for this right now even if some think otherwise. Or think it is too negative! Time is short.
Follow Christ, not men. Isaiah 2:22
lindon said,
There are 26,000 members in that church. How come your city has not been changed as a result? Wouldn't 26,000 dramatically changed people make a difference in a city my size? YES. Wouldn't people notice? Yes. But, it is NOT a church. It is a social club.
This is an excellent point, which I think bears repeating.
Something we can do well to remember is this:
Matthew 7.22-23
22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
Many. Too much, we tend to think that Jesus is saying this to people outside the church. Is He? These people are claiming to do many "good works" and religious things - they're in our churches. For us to assume that everyone in our churches, and even on the church staff, are saved is naive on our part.
Bin Wondering,
The comment below comes from a guy with 100+ posts to his credit and who has also found the time to start his own forum where he posts.
Who says I have a job? I was asking a real simple and sincere question. If you want to know if I have a job, then why don't you ask me? I'd be glad to answer your questions.
Mom4,
And how would you know unless you are on here 24/7 as well.
I'm not here 24/7...I see the time stamps of you guys.
Boy, you guys, I cannot believe how narrow minded and accusatory you can be....
Whatever, it was a sincere question yet you perceive it as an attack and attack back...that's sad.
Maybe...
Or maybe...
Or maybe...
Or maybe...
Enough with the maybe's...it's a simple yes or no question which no-one has answered. Again, it was sincere...I'm just curious...
Lindon, I am sure most will agree that out the 26,000 membership, that there are roughly 10,000 that come on a regular basis (give or take). Now out of those 10,000, who knows how many live in Memphis, Bartlett, Germantown, Arlington, Lakeland, etc....
I am sorry, but I do not get the remark about 26,000 changing a city of roughly 750,000 (give or take) or actually 10,000 to 700,000.
60,000 people come through the Church for both the SCT and the Passion Play each year.
I am not sure which city you reside in, so I can't compare the numbers.
If I misundertood, then please let me know, but it sounded to me like your were saying that the BBC membership is not doing anything to make a difference here in the Mid South.
lindon said- I have been communicating with Pastor Silva for over a year now. He is a godly man who, I can assure you, does not own a pair of 300 dollar shoes.
REPLY: And what do you mean by this??
Sorry to be a blog hog! I must clarify something: When I came out of the seeker/pdl mega church I read Acts 17 times in a row. Each time something new was revealed to me. I focused on Acts because this book was contantly used as the validation of our churche's size...referring to the growth of the early church during Pentecost. (btw: not all mega's are bad! I am not against mega's!)
But here is what was revealed to me clearly: When the early church grew so fast what was being preached? REPENTENCE. Go read it for yourself. That was the main message that convicted people. God was so serious about this and the purity of the early church that He struck Annanias and Sapphira down for lying.
The early church was persecuted daily until Constantine when it became a 'state church'. Does anyone really believe that 3000 or 20,000 people met in the open to worship during the persecution? They did meet at the temples some but mostly in homes. The witnessing/teaching was done in the open in the temples, etc. but the 'worship' was mostly done in home churches.
Yet, during this time, the persecuted early church witnessed to many and many were saved by the preaching of repentence because of what Christ did for them. (They understood the law!)
That is the difference. Now, we hear 'forgiveness' much more than we hear'repentence'. And I blame it all on Constantine! ;o)
So church growth as a result of hearing mostly about 'forgiveness' is scary. It is easy believism and it is a lie from the pit of hell. Without true repentence, there is NO forgiveness.
Bible in a year-
In regard to your question about the tale of Abraham lying about Sarah, you need to read further in Genesis to see why this was included.
Read Gen. 26. You see Isaac Committing the very same sin that his father Abraham did. Up to and includung telling the lie because he feared for his life.
Fsat forward to Gen. 27 and you find Isaac's son Jacob being taught by his mother to be decietful and a thief. He then proceeds to run away from home, find the tabless turned on him by his uncle and end up wrestling with God all night.
The point of this is that God is teaching us that our sins will have consequences and if our sins go un-repentant they can have dire and long-term results.
Abrahamand Isaac were given gifts as a result of thier sin not because God was rewarding them, but because the ungodly men that they decieved and the people they represented had the good sense to understand that they had participated in a great wrong (albeit unknowingly) and that just compensation was deserved.
Abraham never repented of his lying and taught his son to become an habitual liar, not depending on God. Isaac taught his son the same lesson and the family was broken because of it. It wasn't until Jacob came face- to-face with his own character and the admission of who he really was ( "I am Jacob"= thief) that the cycle was broken and Joseph was taught the value of character ("How can I sin so against God?"). God double blessed Joseph's decision by providing two tribes in his name as opposed to one for each of his brothers.
This story should speak to all of us at Bellevue and drive us to a total submission to Christ and a new resolution to make sure that the character we demonstrate both privately and in public is comepletely pleasing to Him who sacrificed all for us.
friendinjax said:
fedup: Gee, OK. I'll ask Mark Sharpe....sorry, still makes you look like a "kook" since the visit to Mark Sharpe was under different circumstances...if you actually feel that asking Mac Brunson to remove SG from the Pastors Conference line up would result in a 4-man visit from BBC, then maybe you are a "kook".
Why do I care if you look like a "kook" in an email to Mac Brunson? Because it then gives him more reason to dismiss those of us who might write him politely and want to be taken seriously.
12:38 PM, January 05, 2007
*****
friend,
The current situation has caused me to be distrustful of everyone, ESPECIALLY pastors.
And to respond to ' maybe you are a kook'..i would have to agree with you...my friends all think i'm kooky, in a loveable sorta of way..but i AM the life of the party :)
Ok, i've been out for a while, and I have thought of something:
4545 told us in a previous post, either this morning or last night that we are all slaves and have no rights.
I am wondering if he was referrring to children who are being sexually abused by pastors, as well?
I think it's a valid question.
And 4545, when you respond, please lay off the ' hate filled speech' rhetoric..just answer the question, ok? thanks.
friend,
But i do understand your concern and will heed your advice. :)
fedup said- Donna, take your family, husband included, and ride out of town while you still can. Take what is left of your tattered lives before you give your husband the opportunity to destroy your lives any further.
REPLY- You continue to amaze me with your hate filled words. You have no right to tell anyone to "ride out of town" as you say. You are past rude. To be honest, you need to learn to keep yopur mouth shut and deal with yourself and your own.
fedup- No, that is actually a stupid question. Very. More spinning and twisting of words to further your hate filled agenda.
What's this about a Thomas Kinkaid for the pastor? Who gave it to him?
4545,
sooo, children are not included in this 'slavery' you speak of?
They have rights?
Just wondering..want to make sure i get the 4545isms straight.
swtt- You continue to show where you are. YOUR list is just more self and flesh. That list is not God's list. I do not do New Years Resolutions. That list of yours is just that, yours. are there some good things in there, sure, mixed in. We should ALL be a blank sheet of paper every day and Bellevue should be that way to. We should not have "lists". We should ask God to write on our blank sheet what He wants. His list, NOT ours. There is no "comeback" or defense for this.
4545 said:
fedup- No, that is actually a stupid question. Very. More spinning and twisting of words to further your hate filled agenda.
****
LOLOL..everything is a stupid question to you, now isn't it?
It would make your writing more interesting if you used a thesaurus so that you can make use of another word, other than " hate". Go to dictionary.com and they can help you out.
ok, thanks
fedup- So you are saying that you are not a bond servant (slave) and you were not bought with a price?
fedup said- Donna, take your family, husband included, and ride out of town while you still can. Take what is left of your tattered lives before you give your husband the opportunity to destroy your lives any further.
REPLY- You continue to amaze me with your hate filled words. You have no right to tell anyone to "ride out of town" as you say. You are past rude. To be honest, you need to learn to keep yopur mouth shut and deal with yourself and your own.
4545,
So do children have any rights not to be abused, or do you agree with the statement made by David Coombs ( assuming YOU are not DC)to his sister in law where Christian wives do not have the right to expect not to be hurt by their husbands.
Would your interpretation of this enslave children to abuse by a pedophile?
I'm starting to understand how and why 7,000 people can cheer SG on for protecting a pedophile.
Thanks, 4545, for helping me to see this more clearly.
4545-
You forget that the Bible tells us that "Where there is no vision, the people perish... Pr.29:18". Looking to the future while asking God to direct us is not wrong, but indeed required. Why else are we to be encouraged by Revelations. Does the scripture not tell us to seek God's will?
You would help those of us reading your posts greatly if you slowly and with detail put your thoughts together. Only you know where your thoughts are headed and it helps the rest of us to clearly understand you if you complted your train of thought for us.
4545,
I Corinthians 7:21-23
21 Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather.
22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.
We are bond servants of Christ, not of men. Servants are called to do the will of their master, not of men. God's will concerning the church is clear. It is to be Pure and Holy. Does Holiness thrive in secrecy and darkness? Do transparency and accountability within the church hinder Purity and Holiness?
4545,
Actually the list is less self and flesh. You are the one who is looking at protecting men behind the pulpit and in leadership from wrongdoing. If that isn't fleshly, I don't know what is.
The Bellevue leadership team could start with the 10 Commandments if you are looking for a good list. If this is followed, this blog will go away I'm sure.
swtt- Please! The list is yours and not God's period! Keep pointing fingers all you want. Some of you will never be satisfied unless Dr. Gaines moves out of town. There are many of us behind Dr. Gaines and look forward to seeing what God does at Bellevue with Dr. Gaines as our Shepherd. MANY things that you and others are unhappy about and put on your "lists" have nothing or very little to do with Dr. Gaines. God is breaking Bellevue. As we can see now, there have been certain problems/issues for years.
4545,
The issues are not of rights, but rather of righteousness. Should we not strive to be righteous? Should we not strive for the church to be righteous?
SWTT,
It looks like maybe they're doing that but I would give them the benefit of the doubt and say that once the facts come out if they come out as everyone here expects them then they will come back on this blog and let us know that we were right to have the personal opinions we had. Please notice I said personal opinions not the supposed "hate filled" speech and other buzzwords. If the facts come out and then they don't then come here and let us know their true feelings about SG and PW then you will truly know where their hearts are.
yes we should Tim and I see very very little of that from those on this blog.
4545 said:
fedup- So you are saying that you are not a bond servant (slave) and you were not bought with a price?
****
DUDE, let me just tell you this:
You should ask my husband what he thinks would happen to him if he EVER contemplated raising a hand to me.
Fortunately, i married not only a kind man but a smart man.
If you are using this passage as an exuse for abuse, you better think again.
Hay! 4545 What is all this double standard business? How come its ok by you to have sg and others tell everyone who doesn't blindly agree and follow to "get out" and if they don't like it to leave? But you are angry and hostile towards fedup when she makes the same sugguestion? Isn't that what they call being a hypocrite?
Lindon...
Have you seen anything or read anything on The 40 Days of Vision for 2007 starting in September? Another 40 Days parade coming after the 40 Days of Purpose, the 40 Days of Community, and now the 40 Days of Vision. Was there another one? Did the 40 Days of Prayer fit in there somewhere? What do you think?
4545,
Most people on this blog have not made themself a servant of any man. There are certainly many that are frustrated. It is extremely frustrating to know the Word and to see it trampled underfoot, especially by the leadership of the church. It becomes even more frustrating, when there is no transparency and no accountability.
40 days is a time of TESTING and JUDGEMENT I guess that 40 is appropriate
4545,
Most everything on the list has everything to do with Steve Gaines.
You said: Some of you will never be satisfied unless Dr. Gaines moves out of town.
Actually, you are incorrect in this statment. I don't know of anyone who cares where he lives. We just don't think he should be a pastor at Bellevue or any other church. For a man to stand behind the pulpit, there are biblical requirements that should be met. Clearly, Steve Gaines is in violation of more than one of these.
I know of a lot of men in leadership that are a slave to Steve Gaines no matter what he wants them to do.
fedup- I am going to say it again!!!!!!! That is a bold faced lie!! I am so sick of you and others putting words in my mouth. Sick of it. If you post something about me, quote me or post facts. Do NOT post what you think you know or what you think I think. That is the problem on here. It is a huge group of people posting junk and only about 5% have any facts to go on. Are there some facts on here, yes. There is also a TON or rumors, attacks and on and on. This stuff and this blog has taken over many of your lives. Do not be deceived that you are doing God's work.
I am 100% against any kind of abuse. That should be common sense.
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