Channel 5 is supposed to air a new story on today's 5:00, 6:00, and 10:00 p.m. broadcasts.
Channel 3's Mike Matthews did an interview with David Brown this afternoon that is supposed to air at 5:00, 6:00, and 10:00 p.m.
From the January 28th BellevueToday:
"Following the evening Worship Service tonight, the Investigative Team and the Personnel Committee will give their reports regarding Paul Williams. Due to the delicate nature of some issues that will be discussed, it is recommended that children not be present during the report time."
And here they are.
So now that it's over, what are your thoughts?
Media Coverage:
The Commercial Appeal's story is here.
Channel 5's coverage is here.
FOX13's coverage is here and here.
Channel 24's coverage is here.
The latest from EthicsDaily.com is here.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
563 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 563 Newer› Newest»4545 - thanks for jumping in. I haven't heard from you in a while. I am glad you are still out there lurking. Of course I don't know details, but I think the phrases "God's man" and "God called him here" are way over used. This is big business (at least according to those who rationalize SG's presumed CEO type salary.) and often "opportunity knocks only once" so even a man who is not being called by God, would be tempted to consider such a position as Bellevue. I admit they are just rumors, but my common sense tells me that SG was not called there and but for the incentives (he was being called my men with deep pockets) he would not have gone. I am cynical but rarely do you see God call men like SG and Mac Brunson and Paige Patterson, to small churches, or the mission field. He only seems to call those "humble men of God" to the mega-churches and biggest seminaries.
AOG said, " I always thought that the church is supposed to impact the culture, not the culture impacting the church."
As Charlie is saying now days...BINGO!!! I couldn't have said it better myself.
It is frightening isn't it AOG? It is almost to the point that one cannot tell the difference inside the church from the street he just walked in from.
I cannot understand for the life of me...why people cannot see this!
This is the end result of pragmatism...the end justifies the means. This is the goal of Rick Warren, Bill Hybels...and all the others like them. It is sick.
People MUST get in the WORD. That is the only way. Turn the television set off...miss a few ballgames. Gather around together and STUDY the WORD. That is the only way. If it means getting back to the 'old way' of doing things...then by all means do it. Those people had one up of the rest of us.
Heaven help us!
i love my church,
I have wondered who else's private files have been seen by eyes that were never supposed to.
mo scratch-
Proverbs 3:5
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding
Scriptual counselling -
I met a registered nurse missionary who had spent her life in a hospital in Africa and returned to Little Rock when forced to retire. She related to me that in the late 50s she attended First Church of the Nazarene in little Rock and one day was so troubled about whether to go to the mission field or stay at home. That church had a lady minister who was well known at the time - Sister Diffee - and the nurse went by the church for counselling. Sister Diffee told her that would occur at the altar where they went and Sister Diffee put her arm around her shoulder and they prayed for a long while. She said she got the distinct answer about her calling thru that counselling time! I don't know if that can be improved on very much.
I love hearing people proclaim the gospel. Do you notice that we are starting to all speak in one voice? And we are beginning to say the truth in peace and in love. Look at what I saw above and have copied here.
(pro-pulpit)
Just My Opinion said...
lindon, I don't understand what you are asking. Are you asking if this is what we as Christians should be held to or are you asking if we need to do this for our salvation? If it's the later, I can save you some research time and limit your copying of Scriptures. I BELIEVE THAT MY SALVATION IS A FREE GIFT FROM GOD, period, end of sentence.
I would never take anything away from the sacrifice that Christ made to pay the price for my salvation. Dr. Rogers would say that we do follow those things (verses you've mentioned) because we are saved BUT not in order that we be saved. I believe in salavation by Grace and that salvation brings me to have Jesus as my Lord and Master. I am to please my Lord and Master in order to glorify Him for what He did for me at Calvary.
12:46 PM, January 29, 2007
(pro-pew)
Churchmouse said...
Ima said,
"Does forgiveness remove the consequence of sin one against the other?"
Reply:
Ima, I will try that one.
Christ paid the penalty of our sin, which was death. He removed that consequence if we accept Him.
If we sin after we accept Christ, and we repent, he is faithful to forgive us. If we don't repent, we are told, the Lord chastens us. Do we experience consequences for our sin when we are saved and forgiven?
You bet. Since the Law and the teachings of Christ are ultimately for our own good, the consequences of our sin often follow as a result of our actions, like ripples on a pool.
1:03 PM, January 29, 2007
Do you see that when we all search for the truth we all end up at the cross and on our knees, exactly at the time God has planned.
The Seattle friend above is right. It is too late for the pro-pew side to win. It is too late for the pro-pulpit side to win.
But it is the perfect time for Jesus to "pass all of us" in this race for leadership and come in "first place".
It is not too late for Jesus to do an awesome revival in all of our hearts.
Blinko7!
Where is your outrage at the lack of outrage?
Are you one of those girlie men?
Just more rumors!!! Now some of you are "claiming" private files have been seen by people that should not have seen them. Just more rumors and doubt and shedding false light to help your "cause".
From the CA:
In May 2006, Williams informed Jamie Fish, the church's minister of biblical guidance, of his past actions. The report said Fish erred by not coming forward with the information, particularly since Williams' job duties included interviewing adult lay ministry volunteers who had indicated they had been sexually abused.
Reply: How can so much blame be shifted to Jamie Fish when Steve Gaines learned of the abuse in June? It doesn't give the days of the months involved. It could have been only a couple of days, or a week, before Gaines found out. At that time, the responsibility was Gaines's.
If you are on Tim's email list, please check your email ASAP. I just forwarded something to you.
Thanks,
Diana
Karen,
You have mail again.
Wannaknow
I didn't hear any "claims" in aog's post. I think he asked a very legitimate question.
In most clinical settings (counseling centers, etc.), you are not permitted to even have someone's file or a progress note or anything even sitting on your desk. These must be locked in a filing cabinet. Or, your computer must be password protected and logged off if you are not actively working on your desktop.
All that to say, this is an important question that needs to be considered. Don't be afraid of questions. If no one's privacy was violated, nothing to worry about.
Are we like the nation of Egypt in Jeremiah’s day? Has the Lord pronounced His judgment on Bellevue Baptist Church?
Bellevue seems to be a sick society clueless to help itself. Our leaders acted in frenzied desperation in failed hopes of finding healing balm.
In vain we have used many medicines; but we are not cured.
Have we foolishly gloried in our might? Is the time at hand when our might will stand us in no stead?
It seems doubtful Bellevue will cease to exist, but it seems equally likely it will not soon recover its former strength and glory. I fear the repeated self-imposed blows have been irreparable and are irreversible.
4545 - I DO trust in the Lord. But the Bible does not call me to check my intelligence and common sense at the door. As Homer Lindsay, Jr used to say: We are not to judge others but the Bible says we will know them by their fruits. We are to be "fruit inspectors" and frankly, the fruit of SG and Bellevue stinks.
By the way, those that fleece their sheep, whether it be pastors or government employees or politicians, do so by saying "trust us, we know more than you." Benny Hinn and Jim and Tammy Bakker probably were defended with scripture also. Until they were found out. SG has been "found out" in my book and I no longer will blindly trust in the Lord when it comes to SG's actions. You probably would tell me to trust PW also based on forgiveness, but I am not buying it. SG knows you can "fool most of the people some of the time", which makes his position safe. However, he can not fool all of the people, which is why we blog. :) I do admire your loyalty to SG and am sure he appreciates it. Obviously, I think your loyalty is misplaced, and not knowing your interest in this whole mess, can't criticize your motives. My guess is you either benefit in some way from SG being the pastor, or you are in fact just a humble servant who is very gullible. If the latter, you are in great company. Just ask Benny Hinn.
-- I have observed more and more churches having fewer and fewer revivals. Of course, the rural church will always hold a revival, whether they actually have one or not, the third week of August. Vance Havner once said, "Preachers speak of 'holding revivals'. Somebody ought to turn one loose!" Real revival -- which takes prayer and preparation and sees scores ushered into the Kingdom and church members rekindling the fire within -- is quickly giving way to one-day events. We have stopped singing "Take Time To Be Holy," because we don't have the time.
...
If there is not a revival in our land many of our rural churches will become bed and breakfast inns and our larger churches will be turned into antique malls. If you don't believe this, visit Great Britain.
4545,
Ease back your gossip radar big guy...I didn't accuse anyone of anything...perhaps I should have used "might have seen", which is was I was referring to...pardon my grammar...but then that should come under the jurisdiction of the grammar police :)
I have your exact same background. In the corporate world 15 years...hundreds of companies all over the US. Worked with everything from Wiccans to Hindus to Athiests. Nothing prepared me for the evil I witnessed from a mega church staff. I still tremble over it. Freaked me out. Totally.
It's not the fact that they are mega churches. Be at peace, brother. The problem is the human condition. You would see much ****worse**** evil in a Buddhist "mega-church" or a muslim "mega-church" or a Hindu "mega-church". Mega churches are a very new concept and only are occurring so far predominantly in Christiainity due to pure economic factors that only western economies can support such entities. They are not evil. But there is always room for revival....
I love my church said...
"We're so desensitized to sin we no longer think about any of these issues in their proper context. It's very sad."
Exactly! It is the 'slow boil'...the frog in the kettle scenerio.
And people are SO willing to bring Jesus back into the world as we know it today...they are crucifying Him all over again! They are persecuting Him all over again!
And they are worshipping the pastors instead of Jesus. Things are going backwards...not forwards. Culture? Try Mt. Calvery two thousand years ago.
AOG said: I still remain confused as to where anyone gets that the local body is supposed to adjust it's culture to the culture of the world outside in the name of evangelism or "relevance"...is not the primary mission of the church the building up of the saints to do the work of the church (taking the gospel out into the culture) rather than bringing in the culture into the church? I always thought that the church is supposed to impact the culture, not the culture impacting the church. And isn't the gospel relevant for all ages and cultures on it's own?
AOG, I have harped on this within my home church for years! Yes, it is!!!!!! Aren't we supposed to be "in the world but not of the world?" Why the drive to be just like the world? We dress like the world, we read like the world, we watch tv like the world.....and unfortunately, we sometimes act like the world. (The "we" used here is used as a group term to describe "the church" not necessarily a person)
Disclaimer:
What Moses did was evil. I do not condone his conduct. I do not defend his actions.
-----------------------
david S said...
Bible in a year,
Interesting thought, though I take exception with your conclusion.
Bibleinayear: “Moses had unconfessed sin for forty years : Ex. 2:12 Glancing this way and that and seeing no one, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand.”
Moses was exposed:
“Who made you ruler and judge over us? Are you thinking of killing me as you killed the Egyptian?” Then Moses was afriad and thought, “What I did must have become KNOWN.” Exodus 2:14 (this all happened “the NEXT DAY” 2:13)
And... of course, to present application: Gaines was exposed.
3:45 PM, January 29, 2007
So Moses confessed?
Did he face the death penalty which his govt was going to impose on him?
Did he tell his father-in-law?
He ran off to another town and started a new life where no one knew him.
Is this the confession you are saying Moses did?
The truth did not come out until the Holy Spirit compelled him to write it out into scripture? I don't know?
be contagious
When was the last time anyone blogged about somethign that God did in their life? God has been good to us all, and we should be focusing on that. I love you all, and I am praying for you all.
Piglet says:
This blog was set up for a purpose-to discuss the problems at BBC under the current leadership.
It began as the last step in Matt.18 to bring these matters before the church before going to the courts.
Theological debates and passing the time of day should take place elsewhere unless it pertains to these matters.
We have business to tend to as a church. We are about that business.
Thanks for your prayers, though.
Sorry, let me define unbiased. Free from all favoritism and prejudice. An yes, no one is completely unbias. We are biased toward breath.
By unbiased, I meant that I've never been within 100 miles of BBC, and don't have any vested interest.
My apologies for calling one side the attackers. The teams should have logos, like "The Falcons" and "The Wildcats" to identify yourselves. "The Gainsers" and "The anti-Gainesers" might be more helpful. I was just being descriptive. One side is obviously on the offensive, the other defending. I think the Gaines issue is all that this entire blog is about and everything else is ammunition and window dressing.
You've called and installed him, regardless of your opinion of the process. I don't even see 30,000 people agree on any one issue at a home football game.
He's made a couple of bad calls. One really bad one. I suspect your former pastor made a couple in his life. However, Gaines hasn't built up a bank account of what psychologists call "emotional deposits."
From my perspective, his main spiritual challenge manifests itself in the realm of finances. Every pastor has their weakness. Our pastor openly admitted his was women. I think I'd reserve that disclosure for a close group of accountable men, he's more open than I am.
As a brother in Christ, our responsibility is to insulate him from any temptation in that area and set up proper safeguards. While not further pursuing the issue with Mr. Williams was an error in judgement, his motives in that were biblical. Purely a question of judgement and not of personal morality. That's been confused in this blog. As I've read the Bible more intently this past year than any time in my life, I believe that grace is the single largest element we have missed in our proclamation of the gospel. The grace afforded us in Christ wipes out ALL condemnation under the law. Even Mr. William's sin. While many of you may not want to let it go, in God's eye's it's buried in the depths of the sea, and he's wondering why you haven't joined him. Yes, sexual assault, particularly toward children (I have three) may result in greater infliction of harm than any others, it is not seen as more repulsive than others in the sight of God. If you were to argue biblically, pride would appear to be most offensive to him (see #3 of earlier post).
I think you need to stop firing the bullets (a blog cease-fire, so to speak), get together and decide if you can live with Dr. Gaines. Or under what circumstances (he seems to have asked for your forgiveness for his lapse of judgement, but you may want more). And if there are not conditions where you can live with his being the pastor of BBC, determine whether you have an avenue for making a change if you are not. If you have no legitimate avenue and can not live with him being your pastor, then you have two options. Put up with it, holding your negative opinions to yourselves or go elsewhere. I just don't see sitting here all day and working each other up and lobbing inciteful remarks as a God-glorifying option.
Ezekiel,
I compared us to Egypt, but only in the sense of judgment. They are not the only nation to come under the judgment of God. Israel has been there a time or two as well. I particularly like the passage my post was based on--Jeremiah 46.
mo scratch said- We are to be "fruit inspectors" and frankly, the fruit of SG and Bellevue stinks.
REPLY- And the fruit from this board and others does not stink? I have been speechless at times with the pure hate that I have seen on this "Christian" blog and other places. This blog is full of know-it-all, "perfect", finger pointing Christians and a great deal of very immature Christians. I am not trying to name call or attack, I am trying to tell the facts.
It has been said already. You and others are not forced to continue to go to Bellevue. If you cannot worship at Bellevue, why stay? If I had the views many of you do, I would have been gone a long time ago and would have moved on. Why continue to be consumed and controlled by this stuff.
This blog and the stuff going on has consumed many of you. It has taken away from your family, children, work, and your walk with Christ.
When will you ever truly give it to Christ and move on. Either at Bellevue or another local church where the Lord leads you? When?
I am sure there will be some that will continue to drag Bellevue in the mud years down the road. It will be their mission. I pray that is not the case.
How is any of this glorifying Christ?
FYI,
It has come to my attention that HR-MPACT and Impact Logistics no longer do business together and I had linked them in an earlier post. The information that I had came from HR-MPACT's website, but I've gotten other information from a source saying Impact Logistics has not done business with Mike Stavaropolous in a few years.
Just to set the record straight! :)
karen
seattlebrother said- I think you need to stop firing the bullets (a blog cease-fire, so to speak), get together and decide if you can live with Dr. Gaines. Or under what circumstances (he seems to have asked for your forgiveness for his lapse of judgement, but you may want more). And if there are not conditions where you can live with his being the pastor of BBC, determine whether you have an avenue for making a change if you are not. If you have no legitimate avenue and can not live with him being your pastor, then you have two options. Put up with it, holding your negative opinions to yourselves or go elsewhere. I just don't see sitting here all day and working each other up and lobbing inciteful remarks as a God-glorifying option.
REPLY- Well said!
Culture has relevance to the gospel in the sense of the cultural/historical context in which redemptive history is recorded in the Biblical revelation...it guides our hermeneutics...the gospel itself is always relevant to culture...regardless how much that culture changes...from Adam to today, people are still "conceived in iniquity", "come forth from the womb, speaking lies", and are called to repent and believe on the LORD Jesus Christ. Sound familiar?...it should..it's the same message for the last 2000 yrs...and the blood has never lost it's power..."I'm not ashamed of the gospel; for it is the power of God unto salvation..."
Ace said:
People here are feeling the need to move God's hand and those people should watch themselves carefully. I have a huge post and it should come either tonight or tomorrow to clarify on this and to address other things as a result of this blog.
Piglet says:
This delusion should spread into the workplace where no christian can ever again fire an employee, but instead, wait for the ominous voice of God from heaven to do it for him?!!
This idea has long since died a thousand deaths on this blog.
Stop resurrecting it.
1:02 PM, January 29, 2007
My apologies...I'm waxing theological again. (offline)
david S said...
Bible in a year
Moses didn't confess, he was exposed. A little hard to "confess" once you're exposed! what you see staff doing now... trying to confess once they're exposed.
David S,
So you have granted my statement is true: Moses had unconfessed sin for forty years.
When confronted/exposed, he ran instead of staying and accepting the consequences. He did not stay and confess. He did not confess in Midian.
FYI,
I am comparing Moses to PW not to SG.
If Moses had truly been an honest man he would have stayed in Egypt and accepted the consequences. He had committed a serious crime.
seattlebrother
If you think this is mean, try reading Pastors.com , transitioning churches, dealing with opposition where we are just wolves to be SHOT.
Guess you're all excited about the Purpose Driven model for churches today?
Just guessing.
Well,
there were people who knew what PW did for 17 years.
So you say that he was never having "unconfessed" sin...?
David S.
Let's stop for now. Okay?
seattlebrother said,
Put up with it, holding your negative opinions to yourselves or go elsewhere. I just don't see sitting here all day and working each other up and lobbing inciteful remarks as a God-glorifying option.
Can you clarify something when you get a second? Is "putting up with it," holding our "negative opinions" to ourselves and/or "going elsewhere" a God-glorifying option? If not, what is?
One more thing:
"While not further pursuing the issue with Mr. Williams was an error in judgement, his motives in that were biblical."
Are you sure?
I guess my point would be to be careful drawing conclusions based on limited information. (not just directed to seattlebrother, but to all of us).
By the way, thanks for the clarification about bias. :)
My goal in coming here is to help my brothers and sisters in Christ worship God and fulfill the Great Commission.
I just want to see people digging into the Word of God.
If I have said anything today that has caused one single person to pick up a Bible, then I have served my God.
News for the Day:
Harry Smith has resigned from the Board of Directors of Love Worth Finding.
For those who missed it, Mark Dougharty and Charlie Brand resigned from the same board week before last.
Early spring housecleaning?
Disclaimer:
unconfessed sin is BAD
I am not condoning unconfessed sin.
But as we bring it out we need to do it peacefully and with love or we do more damage than the original sin (not sure if that pun is intendedd..?).
This is true.
People are re-living a lot of bad memories. We need to be doing what we are doing peacefully and in love. Do not stop seeking the truth.
Never stop.
But keep peace and love in your "left and right hand" as you seek for truth.
Actually, I've been to LA a few times on business and while there investigated Saddleback church for myself. I'd read several of the pro's and con's (even some in this blog) and am happy to report to you that GOD is moving incredibly through that ministry. One night, they were doing baptisms outside and there were about 25-30 people all being baptised.
I've also read his book, "The Purpose Driven Life." It is a good summary of many (but not all) of the Bible's major points in language that the average person on the west coast can understand. It certainly isn't a substitute but did cause my unbelieving brother in law to pick up his bible and further investigate. I don't agree with all his methologies and styles, and I don't think you can take one method of communication and apply it to every area of the country but as S CA, God is using him mightily.
The line in heaven behind Rick Warren will be quite long, particularly those who would not have heard the gospel any other way, Praise God. I hope that doesn't upset you.
(offline)
Let me clear up the deception caused by sickofthelies.
Churchmouse,
Am I the only one troubled by what happened to "sickofthelies"?
There is nothing to be troubled about, I will clear this issue up right now.
David Coombs' son Steve, was overheard in a foyer at church, bragging that he was ACE from the blog.
This is a lie. Stephen never bragged that he is Ace because he is NOT Ace. This is gossip and you fell for it along with 90% of this blog. You owe me an apology because of this, Stephen an apology, David and entire Coombs' family.
Ace emailed "sickofthelies" and told her he knew who she was. Had he read her file and recognized her story? How did he know?
No I didn't read any files. How did I know? Because I'm smart. Sickofthelies is acting like I intimidated her. Below is the only email in it's entirety that I sent her. You will see that she has deceived you all.
TO: fedupatbbc@yahoo.com
Subject: I'm Sorry
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 18:26:01 -0800 (PST)
THE EMAIL BODY:
Hey there,
I apologized for calling you pathetic and a crybaby on the forums but I wanted to do it again here personally in an email. Please note, when I called you that, it was not because of anything you have said or done except for misquote me....that's at. I hope you'll find it in your heart to forgive me.
I was reading up on the forums tonight and I now know exactly who you are....and you know me in real life. And I have a huge feeling that if I was using my real name and you were using your real name we would not be treating each other the way we've been treating each other....so I'm sorry. Are things cool between you and me?
I hope you're having a great 2007 so far...
-a
Nonetheless, I have never received a response from sickofthelies. And it is clear there see there was no intimidation at all in that email.
AllOfGrace,
Of course it's inexcusable..a sacred trust was violated..she was traumatized all over again. People saw her file who never should have without her permission.
No "sacred trust" was violated. You guys have jumped to conclusions are you are wrong. Nobody saw her file who shouldn't have. End of discussion here.
“It's not the fact that they are mega churches. Be at peace, brother. The problem is the human condition.”
Yes, I agree it is the human condition. However, mega churches are breeding grounds from sheer size. They must have a large staff to run them. The members become ‘customers’ or ‘guests’.
Worldly business principles are introduced in order to ‘manage’ 400+ employees. People are eventually hired based on worldly titles, personal associations instead of Holiness.
They cease to be laity run, staffed and administered. I am not against mega churches. I am against what they eventually evolve into. They evolve into large organizations that are powered by a small group of wealthy men chosen from within their own ranks.
Then when power gets out of control, they are not even subject to civil laws of employment, etc. Abuse of power because of the concentrated power and lack of accountability from the congregation is inevitable.
And people flock to them because evetually they look like the world with a moral face.
4545,
Just more rumors!!! Now some of you are "claiming" private files have been seen by people that should not have seen them. Just more rumors and doubt and shedding false light to help your "cause".
I agree 100 precent with you...I have seen nothing but rumors in regards to this issue. People are jumping the gun and it is quite sad.
Seattlebrother,
Excellent post from earlier today....VERY WELL WRITTEN!
SickOfTheLies,
Now that my email to you has been made public, I might as well make my follow-up message to you public as well.
Do you forgive me? It's been about 3 weeks and you never answered me.
Seattlefriend- “While not further pursuing the issue with Mr. Williams was an error in judgement, his motives in that were biblical.”
Please show me where in scripture that our motives count.
Motives or Positive Intentions don’t count. (that comes from Ken Blanchard..New Age Christian…of the Hoffman Institute and the Quadrinity Process)
Scripture tells us our hearts are deceitful. We cannot trust our emotions or feelings, (hearts) which is why we have scripture and the Holy Spirit speaks through scripture.
Please don’t make the mistake that I did and try to bring worldly leadership/business principles into the Bride of Christ. It just does not leap.
That is the problem with the church. And why we have pastors being ‘called’ but negotiating huge salary packages, writing books and spending their time everywhere else with speaking engagements. Why membes are referred to as 'guests' or 'customers'.
Christ wants a pure and spotless Bride presented to Him. He is working to sanctify the church. He is NOT going to do this with worldly principles. He will do nothing contrary to scripture.
We don't need to "Lead Like Jesus", We need to 'Follow Jesus" and "Conform ourselves to His Image".
I say this with a very heavy heart.
seattlefriend said:
He's made a couple of bad calls. One really bad one. I suspect your former pastor made a couple in his life. However, Gaines hasn't built up a bank account of what psychologists call "emotional deposits."
Piglet says:
I could site ATLEAST a dozen or so incidents that show he is arrogant (believes he answers to noone), deceptive, and greedy. These, at the very least, are not the characteristics of a shepherd. We also have leaders who are complicit in his actions and in covering them up.
Now, we are endeavoring to bring ALL these issues to the attention of the members who have been purposefully kept in the dark. Go to integritydoescount.com for more information.
I think I would feel pretty intimidated. "I now know exactly who you are... " but I'm not going to tell you who I am. Yeah, for sure, I'd be intimidated.
Maybe "sickofthelies" will tell us how she felt.
Unless your next message is a public apology to SOTL and to Stephen Coombs for leaving people (like Karen) under the assumption that you are, then don't bother to post again. Your comments will be deleted.
Comments from anyone who responds to ace's comments or asks him a question are going to be left dangling out of context, so consider that before posting.
Thank you,
NBBCOF
“However, Gaines hasn't built up a bank account of what psychologists call "emotional deposits."
Does anyone else see the Satanic lie in this statement? (not you seattle...the thought behind the teaching)
So, if Gaines had made more ‘emotional deposits' (this is from Covey, who is a mormon) then when he is not following scripture...it would be ok because he has built up a positive 'emotional bank account' with you. See how this stuff works? It is nothing but manipulation. Who cares about truth when you have a large 'emotional' bank account.
It leads us away from scriptural truths. So dangerous, seattlefriend. Please do not take it into the church. I beg you.
What next? True North?
Any teaching that is not from scripture does not belong in the church. We have been reading everything else but the Bible.
saettebrother said:
The line in heaven behind Rick Warren will be quite long, particularly those who would not have heard the gospel any other way, Praise God. I hope that doesn't upset you.
Piglet says:
This is assuming that these people are hearing about sin and repentance and not just getting wet to join a club.
And how do you defend the way Warren teaches pastor to consolidate their power base and shoot the dissenters? Doesn't sound like he's open to the gifts and callings of the members if they differ from his prefab church.
He's a CEO.
I saw him on Oprah after reading his book. At the time I thought he might be a great pastor. He was your usual milktoast, feel-good preacher. He sounded more new age than christian. He plays to the crowd.
But I don't care about him except as he relates to our mess. Our leaders seem to have taken some of his classes....
Ace,
Why don't you just take the whole identity issue away from everybody on this blog who spends so much time with it? Just put your identity in your profile and be done with it. Sure would take a lot of ammunition away from many around here and might add to your credibility in some eyes.
ace said...
4545,
Just more rumors!!! Now some of you are "claiming" private files have been seen by people that should not have seen them. Just more rumors and doubt and shedding false light to help your "cause".
I agree 100 precent with you...I have seen nothing but rumors in regards to this issue. People are jumping the gun and it is quite sad.
So ace...if you had a private session with a counselor...you wouldn't mind if someone else saw the file..notes, etc. from that counseling session?...someone else besides yourself or the counselor?
Without your knowledge or permission?
Lindon:
Please show me where in scripture that our motives count.
REPLY. I Corinthians 4:5.Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.
Cute, but no dice. That wasn't a sincere apology, and you know it. You're out!
NBBCOF
P.S. Don't bother e-mailing me.
I apologize if I implied that the concept of emotional accounts was biblical. I believe I read it in Maxwell (a long time pastor - I believe he is out of the Weslyan tradition, but I last saw him preaching in an SBC church).
It is just human response mechanism that is found throughout humanity. Being aware of it might help us understand our emotional responses to certain situations.
seattlefriend: Lindon:
Please show me where in scripture that our motives count.
REPLY. I Corinthians 4:5.Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God."
So in the meantime until the Lord comes what do we do? WE FOLLOW SCRIPTURE. That is all we have! We follow the Word that HE left us for a reason!!!!!
Okay...I was sincere in my last apology...but let me be more sincere. Please read this, NASS, before you consider deleting it.
First of all, I want to apologize to SickOfTheLies for the way I treated her in previous posts. A month or so ago I called her pathetic and told her she was a crybaby. This was VERY wrong on my part and I posted those things because I was frustrated with the way she was addressing my posts. I felt she was being unfair to me and as a response to that I was unfair with my namecalling. This was unacceptable on my part and I regret making those posts.
The same applies to anyone else who I may have belittled in the past few months. Sure, you may disagree with me, but that is no excuse for me behaving in the way I have been at times. I do not believe I was terribly bad...I think ALL of us here overreact and times and post things we shouldn't. I am one of them and I am sincerly sorry for any hurtful things I may have said to anyone here.
Now, regarding the Stephen Coombs issue. I never publicly confirmed or denied I was him while this rumor was going around. My reasoning behind this was just to show you how gossip spreads. Some people here were so convinced without a doubt that I was him based on some anonymous email that was sent to them. While I can't apologize for the person who sent that email and the people who gossiped, I apologize for not address this issue in a timely matter. This has hurt a number of people, including Stephen Coombs' reputation and I am truly sorry for that. So for those who were deceived, I am sorry and I hope you will find it in your hearts to forgive me.
I hope I will be allowed to continue to post here and the above apology is as sincere as they get. But at the same time, I hope that I will be respected by all people on all sides of the issue. From this point forward I am going to watch my tone and what I post and I encourage and challenge everyone else to do the same.
Remember - I am your brother in Christ. I love each and everyone of you regardless of what I may say or demonstrate. I just want people to treat me in the same way I treat you.... so, if I'm ugly to you, feel free to be ugly to me...but I guarantee from this point on I will watch everything I say and respect everyone...all I ask in return is to be treated the same way.
Thanks for reading...and NASS, thanks for keeping this....maybe! :)
-Ace
P.S. - NASS, I am waiting on your word before I post again.
Thanks,
Ace
"I apologize if I implied that the concept of emotional accounts was biblical. I believe I read it in Maxwell (a long time pastor - I believe he is out of the Weslyan tradition, but I last saw him preaching in an SBC church). "
I studied under Maxwell. I really do love his books for business but not for church. Remember, he was a Wesleyan Pastor who left the church to teach leadership principles. If any of them come even close to Biblical principles he does. But keep in mind, he is out there teaching leadership principles...not the gospel.
If he used emotional bank accounts recently, he got it from Covey who was teaching it 20 years ago. The last I went to one of Maxwell's trainings was 3 or 4 years ago.
"It is just human response mechanism that is found throughout humanity. Being aware of it might help us understand our emotional responses to certain situations."
I know! Been there done that! I am the their former queen!
45 said:
Just more rumors!!! Now some of you are "claiming" private files have been seen by people that should not have seen them. Just more rumors and doubt and shedding false light to help your "cause".
RESPONSE:
FACT!!!!! David Coombs called me on Jan. 10, 2007 and told me THAT HE HAD MY FILE.
Question: Does he work in the counseling office?
Answer: NO
FACT:
During the week of January 15, my husband went to David Coombs office and picked up my file.
QUESTION:
Is David Coombs office part of the counseling office?
ANSWER:
NO
FACT:
Shortly after my telephone conversation with David Coombs, ACE emailed me and told me that he knew EXACTLY who I was.
QUESTION:
How did Ace know? Who is Ace?
I will await your humble apology.
Could someone please answer this question from my earlier post? I think it may be important.
Wannaknow said...
According to the Investigation………………….
I. Prior Knowledge
In addition to the above objectives, the Team investigated why the retired staff members, current staff members including the Senior Pastor, and church members who knew of the seventeen-year-old issue prior to December 2006 did not deal with the issue at an earlier date.
I. VI. Investigation Facts
Throughout 2006, other people gained knowledge of the seventeen-year-old issue, beginning with another retired Bellevue staff member, Jamie Fish of the Biblical Guidance office, Pastor Steve Gaines, Webb Williams, and others within the church family.
X. Question of Timely Action
Early in 2006, two people, a trained psychologist and a former church staff member, learned of the issue and could have contacted the Department of Child Services or other authorities about the presence of a child molester on the staff of Bellevue.
Who was the “retired/former church staff member?”
I wannaknow
2:45 PM, January 29, 2007
PS. I do not think this is reference to the retired/former staff member who is deceased!!!
SocWork. I guess if that stands for "Social Worker", I used some words that might set off alarms.
Holding your tongue is a God Glorifying option. Proverbs 10:19 tells us "When Words are many, sin is not absent, but he who holds his tongue is wise." Couple chapters later in 12:18 "Reckless words pierce like a sword but the tongue of the wise brings understanding." If you can't hold your tongue, find a person who you knows has built up that virtue and submit yourself to be accountable to them.
On motives,I Corinthians 4:5.Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.
I have found from personal experience that when I attempt to judge a person's motives, I have frequently later regretted it and been found missing the mark badly.
seattlefriend "I have found from personal experience that when I attempt to judge a person's motives, I have frequently later regretted it and been found missing the mark badly. "
I am real confused. In an earlier posts you implied that Gaines motives were Biblical.
We are not judging motives here as far as I can tell. We are judging whether scripture was followed or not. That is all we have to go by until Jesus comes back and reveals our hearts as you pointed out in Corinthians. In the meantime, motives do not count. Hitler had positive motives...or so he and a few million Germans thought.
It's impossible to know another's motives..or fully understand our own...we can only make judgements concerning actions or words.
How did I feel when Ace emailed me that He knew EXACTLY who I was?
Let me share this:
I am ashamed of myself for being sexually abused as a child. I am ashamed that I allowed it to happen and that I could not stop him.
I carry that shame with me, at 51 years old.
Do I want the world to know? No, I don't. Have I told people since? Yes, as an adult I have told people, but I have done it at my own choosing, and not becuase some dweeb on a blog decides to announce it for me.
I posted my abuse story on here in an effort to help people understand the horror of childhood sexual abuse. Many others followed.
At the time I posted it, I did so anonymously.
Not too long after that, I got an email from Ace. In that email , he DID apologize for calling me pathetic. But he negated that when he also let me know that he knew EXACTLY who I was, and did not bother to tell me who HE was.
Is it coincedental that his ackowledgement of my identity came a few days AFTER I posted that David Coombs had called me because he had my file? I can't answer that. I will leave it to each person to ponder that question on their own.
The bottom line is this: When and Who I choose to tell about the most personal aspects of my life is my business. That decision does not belong to David Coombs, or Ace, or anyone else, for that matter
offline
(Stop clapping!)
:o)
SOTL: It is your right to choose when, who, and how. You were very brave to share in an effort to help all understand the seriousness of what happened with PW. We love and appreciate you, and I am sorry for what you have had to endure.
seattlebrother,
I have found from personal experience that when I attempt to judge a person's motives, I have frequently later regretted it and been found missing the mark badly.
Well, I must have misunderstood your previous post then, because when you said SG's motives were biblical, it sounded to me like you pronounced judgment on his motives. Perhaps I misunderstood you.
As far as holding one's tongue... there are certianly times when it is appropriate to keep one's mouth shut. I have shared that same verse (Prov 10.19) on this blog myself. However, when the leadership of a church repeatedly demonstrates a gross lack of integrity is not one of those times. Would you agree? If you have read past through this blog, you may notice that the issues at hand are not a series of "oops" moments that we need to just overlook, but a series of bright red flags in the leadership of BBC that are alarming to say the least.
Just my thoughts... I've got to run to a class, but I'll be back later this evening.
(((( concerned))))
SOTL,
This is for you, my sister. Thank you for your courage.
(No, Lindon, it's not because you're offline.)
Piglet. Every pastor's teachings, including Dr. Rogers and Warren must be tested against scripture. Dr. Warren takes a topic rather than a straigtht expository approach, which is an inherently more dangerous approach. However, I have never found him to contradict scripture or teach heresy. He has gotten a little unbalanced in his approach (most pastors do at some time througout their career) but not errant. He is working in a tough, tough mission field so I appreciate the extra work that he does to reach and impact where he has been planted. Trying to subplant his methodologies to other cultures can also have it's pitfalls.
From what I've seen 98% of the fear is rooted in a fear of change or fear of loss of stylistic traditions. That is more prevalent in some parts of the country. However, change WILL happen (if you don't believe me, pull out a 1977 yearbook) so his strategy of utilizing stylistic change instead of avoiding it has merit.
As to his condemnation of those who oppose his methods, I have not personally read or seen this first hand so it would not be appropriate for me to comment on it.
wannaknow wrote:
"Could someone please answer this question from my earlier post? I think it may be important."
It might be important, but I don't know, and maybe no one else here does either. I'd suggest you put an e-mail address in your profile. Perhaps someone who does know and who doesn't want to post the name(s) in a public forum will see your question and reply to you personally.
NBBCOF
ace,
For the last time, you are no longer welcome to post here. What part of that do you not understand?
NBBCOF
Thanks NBBCOF,
I have opened up my email.
Wannaknow
(((( nbbcof)))))
What about the scattered sheep?
Those who have been so abused by the present pastor and his power brokers that they are no longer sitting in the pews at Bellevue? Those who have been 'run off'? Those who have been so alienated that they have now joined another church? Or just don't go anywhere anymore? Or are just visiting other churches in search of a better church home? And I don't want to hear that they had a choice...they didn't have a choice. What about these people? Who is going to apologize to them? Who is going to make things right now? Steve Gaines? Who? Is there going to be a public apology? What about Mark Sharpe? Anybody going to apologize to him? His family? And all the others?
Anybody? Anybody got any ideas how to handle this?
SOTL,
I have been a wreck since yesterday and the threat about the files hasn't helped. I mentioned another time that I have spoken with Mike the outside HR person several times. I don't trust anyone right now but I feel much safer about him than any of the staff/pastors....I told him today about the threats from ace and that some believe he is DC's son....I believe he was concerned and I hope he will be able to help us. I also told him when I get my legs back I am going to seek legal advise about our personal information floating around. I understand how you feel in this matter. I am very upset that anyone would be that cruel but we have seen it all now.That's all I can comment for now. Trying to keep my blood pressure from freaking out like it did last night. I could barely find my way home and I live 5 minutes from Bellevue.I hate this club we are in..that we didn't ask to join..David B.called it a fraternity. I wish I could join the bubble club but can't.
ace,go bite yourself really hard and let me watch you bleed. It may help me feel better...you sure get off on others blood.I hope I never know who you are.....Wow,since you get off on others pain....maybe you and paul can get together.
My problem with PD philosophy has nothing to do with stylistic changes.
This is: "the reader is simply asked to “whisper the prayer that will change your eternity: ‘Jesus, I believe in you and I receive you’” (p. 58). Warren continues by writing, “If you sincerely meant that prayer, congratulations! Welcome to the family of God” (p. 59)."--Nathan Busenizt
This is the crux of the whole philosophy...a weak gospel with no repentance, and no redemption.
Dr. Gaines said his motives in not publicly disclosing and acting on Mr. Williams sin was to not break the confidentiality of a private confession and with Christ, forgive Mr. Williams of his past sins. Generally, that is a biblical principle.
We discovered that our former pastor (at a larger SBC church) had previously committed adultery many years back. He had confessed his sin and was forgiven by his wife and God and paid a significant price for his sin. The options were to continue flogging him or join Christ in forgiving him and set up additional safeguards against that sin ever re-occuring in his life.
We can start emptying out our pulpits of anyone who has not committed sin, but that would leave us with a leaderless church.
The error on Dr. Gaines part was one of judgment. An individual who has been the victim and perpetrator of juvenile sexuality has an extremely high recetivism rate and should be removed from ANY kind of opportunity or contract regarding sexuality. His motive on joining Christ in forgiving this action was Biblical.
Maybe you can block his IP address until he shows up as someone else from another IP and we figure it out. (shouldn't take long)
Unless he is using a proxy server?
grommly,
You hang in there. I am praying for you right after this post. Please be still and KNOW that HE is God.
It looks like things are getting out of hand. Can we please forgive and move on.
seattle,
I think you've got it backwards...you need the guardrail of accountability first..the hospital is fine if they go over the cliff anyhow...but my question to you is...do the biblical requirements of elders mean anything?..or are they just suggestions?...under your rationale I would guess the pulpits would be quite filled...but with whom?
gmommylv,
Do not allow them to control you, or your blood pressure. WE have to be strong if we are to take a stand for TRUTH.
Now that I have said that, I might need you to say that back to me later :)
Seriously, you hang in there,sister. We have Jesus to hold us up. What more could we need?
With all due respect seattlefriend. You could not be more wrong inlight of scripture. We have been over this so much I feel like it is a mantra. Gaines did NOT follow the scriptures. 1 Corin 5 tells us exactly what to do. Then, there are guidelines for an elder/minister. Whether he was 'forgiven' does not really matter because when he committed this sin 17 years ago, he covered it up from the church where he was leading people in prayer, ministering and counseling people. Even those who had been abused.
He never publicly repented to the church. He deceived the church. Please go and read the whole report. His son to this day will not allow his grandchildren alone with him.
If Gaines had followed Biblical teaching back in June of 2006, we would not be on this blog today.
David Brown,
Wonderful reports on Channels 3 & 5.
Thank you for speaking out against this travesty of justice at BBC!
karen
seattle said:
The error on Dr. Gaines part was one of judgment. An individual who has been the victim and perpetrator of juvenile sexuality has an extremely high recetivism rate and should be removed from ANY kind of opportunity or contract regarding sexuality. His motive on joining Christ in forgiving this action was Biblical.
Response:
Forgiving him is not the issue. He's forgiven. Now he needs to go away from anywhere near my child.
"I am willing to start as a "new person" here if others will allow me to stay. In fact, I hope you will notice a difference in my tone from my latest posts."
That was quick repentance on your part.
This is NO game, friend. People's lives are being upset. I do not trust you.
ace,
what about the nasty emails you sent me this afternoon - I responded to your request for specifics and you blast me?
Shall I post those here and let the bloggers decide? Nah, that just gives you more blog time you don't deserve. As you said earlier, it's not about you.
karen
I don't believe there is a such thing as a weak gospel. The gospel is powerful. Just weak teaching of it.
Karen, HOw did he find out who you are? If it was not Coombs, how else?
seattle,
If you read what was quoted from the book...I think you get the drift..right?
I really want to know how the Investigative Team knows that Paul Williams never abused again. My ex-husband promised me he would never "do it again" EVERY TIME HE SMACKED ME AROUND! How many abusers promise "Never again - I swear to God!" There is no way the BBC leadership can promise that PW never abused again. NO WAY!! For those of you who believe that, let PW babysit your kids.
karen
Ace,
I was speaking more to the harshness of the some of the other posters. People have given me a hard time for sometimes being harsh, but what I have seen on here from many of the AntiSG folks is anything but Christian. We have all fallen short....lets find a way to heal our church and move on with Steve Gaines. I am willing to forgive everyone involved if we can put all of this behind us.
Aog said,
"allofgrace said...
My problem with PD philosophy has nothing to do with stylistic changes.
This is: "the reader is simply asked to “whisper the prayer that will change your eternity: ‘Jesus, I believe in you and I receive you’” (p. 58). Warren continues by writing, “If you sincerely meant that prayer, congratulations! Welcome to the family of God” (p. 59)."--Nathan Busenizt
This is the crux of the whole philosophy...a weak gospel with no repentance, and no redemption."
AOG...though I see some of the stylistic changes you speak of as a way of inviting the world into the church and I totally disagree with it, it is the crux of the matter you speak of that I have such a severe problem with as well. I don't refer to it as a weak gospel...I refer to it as a different gospel. But the bottom line is that we cannot tolerate anything of the world in the Body of Christ. It is tearing it apart.
Gene...
I was asked to read some comments
on this web site.. I am shocked
at all this negative feedback
about yesterdays meeting..I attended and found it to be very
informative and truthful...I think mistakes were made and carefully noted in the report..Yes even of Dr.Gaines.... This issue has happened was addressed by our leadership and we the Members
need to move on and trust that
they will handle getting anyone that needs counseling ,just that...
This church has many postive things
happening and we (the church body)
need to focus on ways to get involved and keep the church moving
in a postive manner..All this negative talk and publicity is not
helping the church at all..This church will be here long after
all of us have passed on and I
hope we can all get behind our Pastor and help him continue
the fine works of the church and expand our works even beyond what we now do...This church is bigger than any one person....Dr.Gaines
is the Pastor and the majority of us(at least 97%--if you get your
vote)are proud to call him our Pastor..I have never looked at this site until today(I was asked to review it)and I probably will not ever look at it again unless the people on here get behind all
the GREAT WORKS of the Church and
move on... THxss for the space
and I truely hope all can find peace and happiness..Gene
esther,
Any and all emails I've sent out have been under my real name. So I outed myself on my own terms.
karen
Karen,
I believe they mean as far as they know. I think he has most likely abused others. The chances of him abusing at church are unlikely.
I am Stephen Coombs. I'm not sure what to say or how to begin. I realize that I will probably regret even posting on here and opening myself up to and being associated with this blog even though I have read through it on several occasions over the last couple of months. However, I was told on Sunday and today that my name was being used and accused so I felt that I needed to speak. I don't know whose fault it is for my being falsely accused of things, but that is one thing that really gets to me. The only way to fix that from what I can see is to post something under my name. I only have time to be on here for a few minutes during my lunch break and for a few minutes after work before I go home like now. Therefore, I haven't had time to find out exactly what has been said of me. I can solemnly swear before God that I am not Ace and I have no idea who he is or why people think I am him. I will only post with my name since it won't be often and I have nothing to hide. I know of no files or e-mails enough to even be able to comment on how I am not involved. I just know that some woman at church told my Dad that I was e-mailing her. This was disturbing news to me. I know nothing more than any of you (probably less since I haven't read the full report). Most of what my Dad has worked on has been private and he has been too busy to talk with much lately. I don't know any more facts than any of you. However, if you know me or who I am, I would be happy to talk with you if appraoched at church in a respectful manner. I can comment on the character and integrity of my Dad. Is he human? Yes Is he the best speaker or communicator in the world? No However, he loves and obeys the Lord and will not bend or be intimidated by anyone with impure motives. In 35 years, I have never seen him hurt another intentionally, never witnessed or heard of an untrue word come out of his mouth, never heard a single curse or swear word, never taken a sip of questionable beverage or nicotine, never not helped anyone in trouble, etc. (Sorry for the negative use of English there)Anyone who has truelly known him would agree. I wish I could say the same of myself. I did talk with a tall bald-headed man after church last night. He told me that people thought that I was Ace. That is the only time that I have discussed any "Ace" in public so I'm not sure if someone is making this up or just overheard that conversation incorrectly. Although I didn't agree with everything this man said, he was nice and respectful. If you comment to me on here, I may not see or know about it. If it is something legitimate, then talk to me at church. I sit in section P at 11:00. I have mentioned to my Dad in the past a time or 2 that I had read the blog a few times. If someone approached him Sunday morning with the assumption that I was someone else on here, then he would have had no reason other than to assume that they knew what they were talking about since it wouldn't be impossible that I was out here posting from all that he knew which isn't basically much as far as my status with this blog which actually isn't much. He doesn't frequent the blog and he surely doesn't have time to keep up with everything that I am up to every minute of the day. I have to go home now. Let me close by saying that I love Bellevue. I am truelly heartbroken over those that have been hurt by the church or staff over the last few months. Some of the staff have been also hurt for no reason. I have friends who were personally counseled and hurt over the PW situation. However, some seem to want to deal with their pain in an ungodly or unhealthy way. I pray that God can restore these people. I have my own mind and heart and am still drawing my own conclusions and praying about certain circumstances. I wish those who are so upset would either actually do something about it or else just hush and get on with their lives. Everything that has been proven to be a wrongdoing has been admitted and addressed. The other stuff is not worth commenting on until someone actually can produce some type of concrete physical proof as far as any other accusations. We all have been affected and disappointed by the way some things have been handled. However, how would Jesus respond? I'm sure it would be better than myself as well as many of you.
Pray for Bellevue!
S Coombs
Aog...
Meant to add ...
I am sure you already know this...but for those who might not. The reference to the 'whisper the prayer' is akin to the breath prayers, which is contemplative prayer or contemplative spirituality. That is also in the purpose driven life book...speaks clearly of breath prayers.
All of Grace
Accountability for our current lives and actions are paramount. I'm in an accountability group with three Christians and would highly advise every Christian to be in one. I also believe that those in leadership are more accountable and held to a higher standard for their lives.
However, as difficult as it is, we must "forgive those who have sinned against us" (you've probably said that a time or two in your life).
This is where the rubber meets the road.
So where does that leave us with Mr. Williams? He should have been and was removed.
When you mention "Not letting him close to your child" I assume, you are speaking in reference to Mr. Williams. Mr. Gaines has not shown to personally be a threat to any child.
Gene,
You are proud that your pastor allowed a pedophile to stay on staff, still interviewing abused women?
You are proud that your pastor did not follow biblical guidelines after PW confessed to him?
You are proud that your pastor, with a PHD and 20 years in the pastorate did not know what to do when a minister of 34 years told him that he had sodomized his preteen son?
You are proud that your pastor went about business as usual after PW's confession?
You are proud that PW's son had to show up with two witnesses to tell the pastor what he needed to do?
You are proud that your pastor exposed every child ( except his own, no doubt) to a child predator?
It doesn't take much to make you proud does it?
Stephen,
If that is really you, please email me. My email is in my profile. We were friends in the college dept...wouldlove to catch up.
AOG
I would need to see the entire context. Two sentences does not a theology make.
seattle,
I said nothing of my child...must have been someone else...here's what I'm driving at...I'm all for forgiveness..I've forgiven and been forgiven many times...kudos on your accountability group..that said..at what point does a minister disqualify himself for ministry?..again...are the biblical requirements for elders suggestions..or requirements?
Thank you for setting the record straight, Mr. Coombs. You would have to read back through the comments in the previous two threads to see how that originated. I apologize your name was dragged into something that has nothing to do with you.
NBBCOF
P.S. I believe the persons with the e-mail addresses acefrombbc@gmail.com and thetruthaboutace@yahoo.com are the two people who perpetuated this unfortunate rumor. If you don't want to put an e-mail address on your profile, you might want to contact them as they have both been banned from posting here.
Bellevue,
A lot was missing from that report last night. I don't know what David Coombs knows, so I am not aiming this comment at him. I believe Mr. Coombs is honest.
I am here to say one thing: you did not get the whole story. Ask why. Ask for the rest of it.
Stephen Coombs,
Thank you! I am praying for your family.
NBBCOF,
I didn't start any rumors...so my address acefrombbc@gmail.com shouldn't be posted there.
NBBCOF,
Unless your next message is a public apology to SOTL and to Stephen Coombs for leaving people (like Karen) under the assumption that you are, then don't bother to post again. Your comments will be deleted.
My next message at 5:16 PM, January 29, 2007 was an apology so why am I not allowed to post anymore? I followed your rules and I still can't post? Please explain this to me because I don't understand.
david S said...
Is it possible to have two accounts on blogger.com?
6:32 PM, January 29, 2007
Yes, you can have as many as you want if you know how. You can also mask your ip address if so inclined. The only way to fight this is for NASS to further restrict the ability of users to post. Sadly it appears that it may come to that because of people like ace.
Stephen,
If it really you, I need to talk to you as well - I have emails that will shed light on why people thought you were Ace. I have no qualms about sharing these with you. I am "that woman" that told your dad "I think I've been trading emails with your son" and I told him my name.
Email is in my profile - thanks!
Karen
OFG said:
....lets find a way to heal our church and move on with Steve Gaines. I am willing to forgive everyone involved if we can put all of this behind us.
Piglet says:
There goes the mantra again. We need to put this leadership behind us. THEN we could REALLY move on.
AOG,
The rules for deacons/elders as laid out in 1 Timothy 3 are what they are. They guidelines in which a man must pass before he can be named a deacon or elder. "An overseer, then must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle peaceable, fre from the love on money." (1Timothy 3:2,3)
I challenge all of you to look at this passage very, very closely. Then analyze these qualities that an overseer IS SUPPOSED TO HAVE and see if SG, PW or David Coombs passes. If not, then the point is proven.
??? Stunned....I regret
that sikofthelies doesn`t
like my comments, but I
can only humblely say that I never
meant to start a negative dialog
with anyone on here. I just merely wanted all to know that there is alot of us members that are proud to call Dr.Gaines Pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church..
YES I am Proud to call Dr.
Gaines my Pastor and I nor
anyone else I know claim to handle
every situation perfectly(YES
I REALIZE AS DOES HE LOOKING BACK
THAT THIS WASN`T HANDLED CORRECTLY)
,but he has stated to the church
that he was in uncharted waters for him and I do believe him..
Just my Thoughts.. Thxss for the
opportunity to post my comments..
Gene .
I love my church,
I would dearly and sincerely appreciate an e-mail from you. Truth is extremely hard to come by and it must be made known.
How many mistakes does it take to render a pastor incapable of leading a church? So far in our case, we have 4 apologies that I can remember? Am I right on that? How many chances to change policy and procedure does it take to realize someone just isn't the man for the job? Even God got tired of putting up with Saul - why should we not get tired of Steve Gaines?
Karen
{Yawn} I've got all night. Excuse me if I don't delete posts from "ace" immediately, but I will get around to it. I repeat, if you don't want your comments to/about him dangling out of context, simply don't respond to him/her/it.
NBBCOF
powr,
I know..my question is rhetorical. Just trying to get to where seattle's thinking is exactly on this.
Gene,
You sound like a nice man. I apologize if I came across as harsh.
Why would Steve Gaines need a policy book to know what to do with a minister who had deceived the church for 17 years and who had sodomized his son?
My 15 year old son would have known what to do.
If you will recall, the report ITSELF said that Steve Gaines was more focused on keeping his job than keeping us safe, ( or something to that nature)
Steve Gaines is lacking integrity.
I can never look at him the say way again. I can only look at him with pity. I do not hate him. I do not think he is fit to lead our church. I have stated before that I do not feel that his actions were nefarious, but I think he is in over his head.
I was at that church 15 years ago. I was there first. He needs to go.
AOG
I hold the biblical requirements of Tim and Titus are as relevant today as they were 2000 years ago. They are relevant for the person serving office. A person entering office is also required to meet the criteria. How are we to handle sins of a person before entering office and does one sin disqualify that person?
Allofgrace,
Ah. aha. I understand. I apologize if I butted in where I shouldn't have.
I was just reading the investigative team's report, and I came across something I thought I would share with the rest of you. This is from page 11:
"PW was sexually abused as a child, then he sexually abused his son. P is a victim, as is his son and the rest of the family."
As hard and as emotionally shattering as being abused as a child must have been, I believe that PW ceased to be a victim the moment that he continued the circle of violence against his son. He stopped being the victim and became the perpetrator. While I believe that people can be forgiven, I think the time has long past that PW could truthfully be called a victim.
Thanks new BBC open forum. I would like to say that I do believe that there most likely are some folks on here who do have pure and Godly motives even if some don't agree with the method and they seem to be anti-Gaines. I don't think that goes for all or probably most on here though. I respect everyone's ideas. I would hope that no one would think that I would put down or be light with someone who has been truelly hurt. If anyone finds out who ACE is, please let me know somehow since I probably won't be on here much, if any, even though I am now somewhat curious which is probably unhealthy. I was afraid someone would try to say that I set up another account and was really ACE. I hope not. There must be someway to prove it. With as much as he seems to be on here and as busy as I am, I could probably find hundreds of alibies if I really wanted to spend the time to research.
powr,
No problem...quite alright.
Why do you want to stay, Ace?
S Coombs,
I think it's safe to say most if not all take you at your word.
s coombs
Thanks for posting and addressing the confusion caused by some posters here who have thrived on causing discord.
Please pray with us that Gods will be done and the TRUTH prevail in all of these matters.
We need bylaws. We need accountable leadership.
overflowinggrace said...
Karen,
I believe they mean as far as they know. I think he has most likely abused others. The chances of him abusing at church are unlikely.
Reply - We agree! He probably didn't abuse on BBC grounds, and BBC leadership is not responsible for any children he may have abused prior to June 2006. BUT! Mrs. PW has known for 14 years and chose to keep quiet - did she know where he was 24/7? I do hold her partially responsible as I hold all BBC leadership that found out when PW first confessed. I hold the counselor responsible for that as well. Anyone who knew and kept it quiet is responsible - except the victim. I totally understand why the victim didn't tell.
Wilwaren
That is an ignorant statement. One never fully recovers nor ceases to suffer from child molestation. My good friend in college can give you the details of the lifelong hell that is created. It is possible to be a victim and a perpetrator.
seattle,
An example might be..one who is divorced...does that disqualify one?...sometimes depends on the thoughts of the seminary considering the candidate or the church considering the same. But the question is...what do the scriptures teach?...God was pretty strict on the Nazirite (sp) vows...just one example.
Karen,
Let's keep this agreeing thing going. Do you agree that these are unchartered waters for most every pastor at BBC. (Having a child molestor on staff)
btw...Don't worry if you do agree, you will not lose your salvation.
Overflowinggrace said...
Do you agree that these are unchartered waters for most every pastor at BBC. (Having a child molestor on staff)
Having one on staff - probably unchartered
Knowing what to do with one the minute the secret it out - NOPE! It's been all over the news (Catholic Priests) and I'll bet there are seminars and magazines and TV specials and bulletins from the SBC or word of mouth that have said you tell on suspected child molesters. He ADMITTED he was a child molester. How much more info do you need to call 911?
There is proof that Steve Gaines fired folks from his West Jackson staff for being divorced - divorce doesn't exactly make headlines anymore; child abuse and the punishment for abusers in in the news practically everyday. I don't understand how Steve Gaines can say he was in "uncharted waters".
karen
David S,
I have to disagree. Thats her son..her baby. Did she not care that others might be affected. Why did she come to confess with PW, giving the appearance that all was well.
__To..sickofthelies..
I have 3 kids...2 boys and 1 girl
from ages 22 to 12 and I truely believe that they are safe on the Bellevue Campus.... I don`t know Mr. Williams (don`t think I want to),but he and his wife both held this in along time(I ??why--wasn`t it just for his job and money//his family needed him to be employed--)Oh..what people do for money....
I feel extremely sorry for his son
and his family...this is the victim..All said the church has made a report to us(the members)and
I found it to be right on track ..
Honest and truthfullllllll..I am not ,nor do I ever, want to offend
anyone on this site..I just want all to know there is alot of us that support the pastor and the
works of the church... I wish happiness to all and if I could
wave a magic stick and make all
okay I would ..May each of you find that happiness and God bless..
Thxss G and I`m off at 7:00 ..
david s,
If she went to a counselor with him, she should have done more. That's all I'm saying about her. I understand about being an abused wife - as I was one. You know what really made me get out - when my ex was mean to my little dog. If I had enough guts to get out because of a DOG without the help of a counselor, you'd think she'd be more protective of her child. I just don't know in this situation.
Karen
I will e-mail crushed when I get home. I took a few minutes and found 1 alibi quickly in case anyone still doesn't believe me. I'm sure those who don't want to still won't though. I was calling basketball games for children as a referee at Bellevue in gym A1 from 9 am to after 1:30 PM with Zach Thomas on Saturday 1/20. Many witnessed me there incuding Joyce Rogers whose grandson was playing in one of the games. I looked back and noticed that ACE was on the blog and commenting around noon that day. Hope this helps some beleive me that may not.
SeattleBrother,
I think that I can say I'm not woefully ignorant of being a victim myself. My parents divorced when I was eleven, and the experience was emotionally shattering. However, I give anyone full reign to call me a perpetrator if I ever divorced my someday husband for anything other than Biblical reasons. I would then have enabled the cycle of hurt and family instability to carry on. PW offically lost all of my sympathy as an abuse victim when he abused his son and then had absolutely no remorse for it. Those yearly meetings ot make sure that his and his son's relationship was all right? Yeah. Who wants to bet that those were just to make sure that CW would just keep his mouth shut? The victim was not PW. The victims were his family and his church family.
Abuse.
I've been abused. Not sexually, but physically. My dad beat my brother and sisters with a fireplace shovel, a whiffle ball bat, as well as using excessive force when spanking any of us with a belt.
When my dad was still at home before he left, he punched my brother one time in the chest and left a bruise on his chest for two weeks.
Four years ago, in the Bellevue Baptist Church parking lot, my brother turned around and did the same thing to me. He punched me twice in the chest, left bruises on my chest for three+ weeks, but it was difficult to breathe for a fews days after.
Abuse isn't just about what one person does to another at one point in time. Abuse is the trauma that those being abused are left with for the rest of their lives. PW had a choice. If he was abused, why did he have to abuse his own son? If it caused him so much pain, why did he cause his son so much pain? Why did he not put his guard up and ask friends and family for support?
Look, because of my dad and my brother's uncontrollable temper, the same temper that I have, I am scared of what I'll do sometimes. But because I have made my anger fault known to my girlfriend and to my family and friends, I know they are praying for me and it gives me strength to bite my tongue and stay my hand. God works through the fellowship of believers. "Where one or two are gathered in my name, then I will be in the midst of them." God is with us when our hearts are pure and our motives are His motives.
I know that there are people out there that have been abused far, far worse than my imagination can take me. That hurts to know that. It hurts me to deal with what little I have to.
Sickofthelies, I pray for you each day that God will continue to heal you and not let other people drag you down as you fight this very personal fight.
Friends. The wolves in sheep skin have to be stopped. It will kill Christianity if it's not.
Karen,
I agree that its been all over the news where pastors have abused on church grounds.
This situation is so bizarre.
PW comes in with his wife and they both say all is well and they have gotten counseling for all this time. Thats the unchartered waters part.
seattle: I think Wilwarin does bring up an interesting point. If PW was so damaged by what had happened to him, WHY did he inflict the same damage on his son? (another example: a child of an alcoholic can CHOOSE to be sober.) PW had a choice. He damaged his son and so many different ways (the abuse for 12-18 months and not getting counseling for him)and actions have consequences.
Lindon said...
“It's not the fact that they are mega churches. Be at peace, brother. The problem is the human condition.”
Yes, I agree it is the human condition. However, mega churches are breeding grounds from sheer size. They must have a large staff to run them. The members become ‘customers’ or ‘guests’.
Worldly business principles are introduced in order to ‘manage’ 400+ employees. People are eventually hired based on worldly titles, personal associations instead of Holiness.
They cease to be laity run, staffed and administered. I am not against mega churches. I am against what they eventually evolve into. They evolve into large organizations that are powered by a small group of wealthy men chosen from within their own ranks.
Then when power gets out of control, they are not even subject to civil laws of employment, etc. Abuse of power because of the concentrated power and lack of accountability from the congregation is inevitable.
And people flock to them because evetually they look like the world with a moral face.
4:35 PM, January 29, 2007
No. Size is not the problem. On pentecost day 3000 joined the local church in a single day.
What you are talking about where the world creeps in to the policies...
...that means it is time for a revival!
You and I are on the same page.
(Note: I just started reading from your comment forward. I'm not sure if I will be able to catch up to here before I stop and call it the end of the day.)
Didn't we learn that DCS had done a seminar in our church in 2005?
Did they not address child sexual abuse?
Of course they did. DUH
David S,
I must make the point that I agree it is not for us to judge Mrs. W. Many on this blog have said that they forgive SG but he still must pay for the mistake. That must go for Mrs. W, she will possibly go to jail for what she did.
It does not matter WHERE ( the location) of where the abuse took place. Real Estate is not the issue.
IN all the catholic situations, it was the coverup that got everyone in trouble.
This is much different than the catholic situation. Abuse and coverup was rampant in the Catholic Church. This is on occurence outside of the church.
overflowing grace: I have to disagree. True the original offense took place "outside" the church- but he was on staff at that time...and the cover-up most certainly took place inside the church.
Powr,
Bless your sweet heart. I will keep you in my prayers.
Thank you for your kind words.
That must go for Mrs. W, she will possibly go to jail for what she did.
Do spouses go to jail for not reporting sex abuse? I have never heard of that.
Concern,
I really don't see any comparison in the catholic abuse or the coverup. There wasn't a coverup!
Churchmouse was quoting overflowinggrace in the first part of the post.
overflowing,
With all due respect, my dear sister, what do you call the period from june to december?
Overflowing: Respectfully, I beg to differ. PW, as a minister on staff, covered up for 17 years; PW's wife covered up for 14 years, JF covered up from May-Dec., SG covered up from June-Dec, and WW covered up from Oct. -Dec.
allofgrace said...
It's impossible to know another's motives..or fully understand our own...we can only make judgements concerning actions or words.
5:35 PM, January 29, 2007
I was trying to catch up from ~4pm...
I'm stopping there with AOG's post.
Goodnight everyone.
Good post AOG!
I'll be back tomorrow after 6 a.m. Maybe more like 10 a.m.
If anybody wants me to read something, please save it until then (6 a.m. tomorrow). I'm not reading anything else that gets posted today. (No offense, just don't have time).
Offline until tomorrow after 6 a.m.
Father in Heaven,
Thank you for this day. Thank you for your Son. Thank you that my family and I have food to eat tonight and a place to live in the best city in the world and the best country.
In Jesus's name, AMEN.
sick,
I think SG admitted that he made a mistake in not acting more quickly, but there was not a cover up. The catholic deal was a coverup for years from the bottom all the way up.
Concerned,
PW did coverup...He is sick. Don't confuse the 17 years of cover up from PW with the SG situation.
Overflowing: Again, with all due respect, I don't want to confuse a mistake with breaking the law. I do belive there was a cover-up...I believe the term used last night was "tightening the circle."
concern,
Did Mrs. W break the law.
((((((((((((SOTL)))))))))))))))
I just want to say that I love you, my dear sister. I have been sick all day over what happened to you last night, and I am praying for you. I know you to be a woman of truth and honor, and I can't begin to comprehend the pain you are in. Our God is bigger than ALL of this -- and I know you believe that. He will make a way for you. He will make a way for all of us.
Just know that you are deeply loved. God give you peace, my sister, my friend.
overflowing,
I think she did. But I'm no lawyer. She broke God's law, though. She had a moral obligation to her son to protect him. And by staying with her husband, that was not protecting her son. Not getting him counseling was not protecting her son.
Overflowing: My understanding (and the understanding of people smarter than me who have already posted a response to the question of the law) of Tennessee law is that anyone who knows of an abuse of a child is to call the proper authorities. Period. I have to tell you that on a human level, my heart aches for Mrs. W. Woman to woman, she has lost just about everything. Yet, as a mother, it is so hard for me to understand not protecting your child at all costs. However, after reading several first-hand accounts on the blog and elsewhere, it seems to me that the spouse's denial is common. Truthfully, I don't WANT to see anyone go to jail. However, we live in a country of laws and as Christians we are also bound to God's laws as well. The law was broken by numerous people. The results of this disobedience may not be fully known for years. (see Piglet's previous comment on this) Again, forgiveness and consequences are not the same thing.
A few questions:
1. Who does everyone think is the "non Bellevue psychologist" and the former retired staff member?
2. Why were their names not mentioned?
3. Is anyone going to apologize to ace and Stephen Coombs other than New BBC open forum?
4. Do you think Mike Spradlin will call for the resignation of Jamie Fish/Webb Williams... and what about the former retired staff member, does Mike need to address that as well?
Sorry if I missed the answers to any of those questions, but please direct me if I did.
I'm off now, I'll watch for answers later.
Sick & Concerned,
I'm not a lawyer either. I can't see where anyone but PW should go to jail. If the church body decides to let SG go, I guess thats a consequence. He has already faced consequences. His life for the last 7 months hasn't been that great.
We must be consistent. If SG must pay consequences so should Mrs. PW.
One big difference is the age of the victim at the time of knowledge. If SG learns of the crime when the victim is 17, that seems much different than when he is 34.
There have been plenty of times when I deserved the worse but God, Family or Friends gave me the Best...and I am better for it.
Maybe,
Thank you for your kind words. You are very sweet to say such kind things. I want you to know that I am fine. I'm much better today than I was last night.
churchmouse and others,
FYI, parents can definitely be charged with "failure to protect" in these kinds of situations.
heardenuf wrote:
"Who does everyone think is the "non Bellevue psychologist" and the former retired staff member?"
What does it matter who we think they might be? Any comment speculating about this in which names are mentioned will be deleted.
"Why were their names not mentioned?"
That's a legitimate question to which I don't know the answer.
"Do you think Mike Spradlin will call for the resignation of Jamie Fish/Webb Williams... and what about the former retired staff member, does Mike need to address that as well?"
I don't know. I guess time will tell, but I trust he'll address the situation if and when he sees fit.
NASS
Post a Comment